View Full Version : Haruhi Suzumiya - Spoilers & Speculation (for experienced Haruhi Fans only)
This thread is for the experienced Suzumiya Haruhi viewer (i.e. those of you who are familiar with potentially all the light novels / manga), its purpose is to allow free discussion of theories and speculation over the Suzumiya Haruhi anime series, it therefore will contain unmarked spoilers. If you are a light novel / manga virgin of Suzumiya Haruhi, then do not read this thread unless you want to be spoiled (use the Speculation & Theories for Anime-Only Haruhi-fans (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=83062)).
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Kaisos Erranon
2009-06-22, 20:58
I've... thank you.
Thank you so much. Finally a place where we can speculate out our ears.
Roger Rambo
2009-06-22, 21:01
BWAHAHAHAHA! NOW TO COMMENCE WITH OUR EVIL SCHEMING!
So seriously, the Anti SOS coming up with some kind of elaborate Xanatos gambit cliff hanger for volume 10 or what?
Kaisos Erranon
2009-06-22, 21:04
So seriously, the Anti SOS coming up with some kind of elaborate Xanatos gambit cliff hanger for volume 10 or what?
I'm sure they have something planned that involves Kyon transferring over the powers either by accident or because he thinks, incorrectly, that it's the right thing to do.
Though they won't survive Beta either, most likely...
It's just more likely that Alpha will end with a parting conversation between them and Kyon, and then they'll vanish for a few books until they're important again. (Lol status quo and all actually the big books always fuck with the status quo in some small way)
Besides, they'll need new members to mirror Kyon and Slider-tan.
Roger Rambo
2009-06-22, 21:11
Poor slider-tan. Apparently she's an important character but she doesn't get any illustrations yet.
kniteowl
2009-06-22, 21:39
Well we might get to see her on the cover of Volume 10, her or Sasaki lol.
I was wondering if in one of the dimensions, Kyon does turn to the AntiSOS-Dan, does that mean Kyon may have to face his evil counter-part in some kind of Slider wars? lmao... nah... unlikely but still...
quigonkenny
2009-06-22, 23:45
Well we might get to see her on the cover of Volume 10, her or Sasaki lol.
I was wondering if in one of the dimensions, Kyon does turn to the AntiSOS-Dan, does that mean Kyon may have to face his evil counter-part in some kind of Slider wars? lmao... nah... unlikely but still...
What are they going to do to face off? Try to out-snark each other?
Although that does give me an idea for Volume 10. Maybe the Anti-dan comes to beta!Kyon in the first part of 10 and convinces him that if he helps them give Sasaki Haruhi's power then unlike Haruhi's access to the power, her more active control will be able to keep Yuki safe, and he does so in order to save Yuki. That would be an in-character reason for him to side with the Anti-dan and be on the opposite side of alpha!Kyon once he comes over to the betaverse with Slider-tan...
I sense that the Mods (the good, sincere people of infinite wisdom) had trouble herding the certain troublesome elements of the Haruhi board into any pre-existing threads that they can do least damage, so they created this "delinquent homeroom" where we can spoil each other to death without collateral damages. Yes we may be antisocial, smoking early, and not getting into any 3rd rate colleges, but damn we're cool people.
Let me stray back into topic so I don't get called into detention. We might get a better handle of the slider-girl if we can surmise the time-dimensional-theory of the Haruhi-verse. This is all speculation, of course, until Tanigawa spells it out later. Lets suppose Mikuru and Fujiwara each came from a mutually exclusive future (of which the existence depended on Kyon's choice for mate), they may be considered parallel universe with each other but they at least have a common past, so the futurist restrictions in the present applies (no direct intervention with fore knowledge allowed; only verbal influence or actions through ignorance).
What if there exists a parallel universe which, though similar with the one here, intersects no point at anytime. Then sliders may act with fore knowledge (like jumping into different futures, check out which one she likes, and jump back to affect the present) without the paradox restrictions.
IF the speculation holds, and I'd be surprised if it does, then this is how the story will pan out: One universe where the phone intervention did not occur will lead to the destruction of SOS. And since the slider-girl finds SOS so interesting, besides being called forth by Haruhi, she decides to join. Who knows, she might be joining simply because she digs Kyon.
Did anyone mention that this is a Harem story disguised as sci-fi teen comedy?
Kaisos Erranon
2009-06-23, 03:30
*snip*
You're confusing "parallel universes" with "alternate timelines".
The Haruhi universe, as far as we know, does NOT operate on the many-worlds theory in regards to time travel. There is ONE future. (This is partially supported by the fact that Fujiwara has met Mikuru before, probably her adult self.) Also, Kyon's own time travel never created alternate timelines, it only returned the timeline to normal.
Now, it's more than likely that slider-tan comes from another universe completely separate from the Haruhiverse. As such, her presence should affect the timeline in no way whatsoever. Maybe.
The timing of the phone call may have been completely coincidental, or it may not have been.
We'll find out soon, I hope...
Although that does give me an idea for Volume 10. Maybe the Anti-dan comes to beta!Kyon in the first part of 10 and convinces him that if he helps them give Sasaki Haruhi's power then unlike Haruhi's access to the power, her more active control will be able to keep Yuki safe, and he does so in order to save Yuki. That would be an in-character reason for him to side with the Anti-dan and be on the opposite side of alpha!Kyon once he comes over to the betaverse with Slider-tan...
That's... that's actually really great, especially because the Anti-SOS are most likely behind Yuki's current illness.
Bastards.
kniteowl
2009-06-23, 03:44
@dnab
well for those of us who've seen episode 25 of Haruhi-chan with the Visual Novel Opening can pretty much guess that, even if it's true most of us don't really care as long as the series is enjoyable.
We probably all guess that Kyon will end up with Haruhi in the original Haruhi-verse that we've currently watching/reading (you know which Haruhi-verse I'm talking about) but since Sliders exist (well we think they do) Kyon could potentially end up with anyone since it appears Haruhi's power are transferable.
It'd be kool if Kyon could visit all the interesting different possible dimensions.... like one where he decided to stay in the normal world where Aliens, Time Traverllers, Espers & Sliders don't exist... wait maybe he can't visit that world since sliders don't exist and even if he could he could never return to his own world.... ah my head hurts... lol
Although it would be interesting to see all of Kyon's potential female partners in the alternate worlds... nah that's too cliche lol...
What if there exists a parallel universe which, though similar with the one here, intersects no point at anytime. Then sliders may act with fore knowledge (like jumping into different futures, check out which one she likes, and jump back to affect the present) without the paradox restrictions.
Actually I'm quite aware of the difference between parallel universe and alternate timelines. (We're assuming here that the girl who made the call to Kyon in bath is in fact a slider) It would make her action more purposeful if she knows what she's doing. The alpha and beta are distinct timelines, and that call shouldn't be an accident. I've given her the ability to go "up & down" as well as "sideways" so she can obtain this fore knowledge herself, but there ought other, creative means to attain the said fore knowledge. The purpose for this exercise is not to "call the market" (serious business to dominate a thread) but "present possibilities" (fun exercise in rhetorical musing).
In support of the multiple-future theory, there are a couple places I can think of off top of my head:
1) In Kyon & Mikuru's first encounter with Fujiwara, Kyon asked Mikuru "if she knew of this asshole", to which she replied "I don't know. My ..... eh, known people does not include him." I'm being literal here, but the stutter doesn't show up in some translations. It could, of course, be the result of Mikuru being nervous of the situation. An intriguing possibility is that she swallowed a word in midstream to rephrase her sentence. "My (future/timeline) does not include him"?
2) After the failed Michiru kidnapping attempt Fujiwara again showed up in the kidnapper vehicle. At which he said "This is a predetermined event, too. For us as well, that is. So you can't blame us." And the kidnapper girl said, "You tell me, how many futures have been decided? It requires a bit of skill to follow through to the correct outcome without deviating from the intended path, you know. While anyone can dance easily, it's very difficult having to dance correctly as instructed."
Fujiwara's first encounter with Mikuru may not be her first encounter with him, like Kyon & Yuki. But again they can still be coming from different futures to dangle in the present. Nothing Tanigawa written yet has precluded multiple-futures.
yeah, after reviewing the situation, the bramble nest of time-lines, and thinking about how something that is getting as bizarre as HHGttG to describe - I asked for this "end-game" thread where people who have read the whole thing and watched everything available can run amuck.
Sliders vs Time travelers.... brushing against real cosmological theory, sliders would be a restricted version of time travel (time and space; multiple worlds). Sliders can move "horizontally" across the realm of possibility but not forward or backward along the time axis in any unusual way.
Fortunately for the sanity of the reader, the universe and how it works in SHnY is constructed in simplistic way to facilitate telling a ripping good tall tale of a story.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-06-23, 12:05
Fujiwara's first encounter with Mikuru may not be her first encounter with him, like Kyon & Yuki. But again they can still be coming from different futures to dangle in the present. Nothing Tanigawa written yet has precluded multiple-futures.
Yes it does. The very nature of the way time travel works in Haruhi precludes multiple futures.
Else Kyon would be creating a new universe every time he time traveled.
Kinny Riddle
2009-06-23, 12:39
Anyway, to get on topic, from now on, I will post my episode thoughts here first, before scrutinizing it obnoxiously and then copying and pasting the butchered "spoiler-free" version over.
Posting more would get this dangerously close of being booted into the Ontology thread. So I'm gonna try winding down here.
Kyon is the readers' lens for the past and present, and there should be just One present (not counting parallel dimensions etc.). But beyond that the future is full of possibilities - so much so that someone from Mikuru's time will have to send someone to now in order to stabilize their time with action parameters (usually performed by Kyon, influenced by Mikuru who could have been engineered towards his taste). If there is just One future then there's no need for these activities. Let's say Kyon missed some of the required parameter inputs (say he doesn't find the chip or save the inventive kid) the world will not go into oblivion, but the future(s) where time travel is possible will be eliminated, along with Mikuru and Fujiwara whether they're from the same timeline or not. But multiple futures are possible at critical points where Kyon, in his free will, chooses his actions.
There are enough hints to suggest that Mikuru isn't 100% natural, and I don't mean her boobs. She's either got machines implanted in her or, more interestingly, engineered along and within her. She probably IS a time machine. Whatever transtemporal communicating device inside her ear, and that TPDD thing on her face, of all places. Apologies for treading old theories, but it's all news to me.
quigonkenny
2009-06-26, 01:30
Whatever transtemporal communicating device inside her ear, and that TPDD thing on her face, of all places. Apologies for treading old theories, but it's all news to me.
"On her face"? What are you talking about? There's nothing odd about her face. Except when the Key series animators animate it... Mikuru-chan wa O · O ja nai!
Or are you talking about my theory of Mikuru(big) stealing the TPDD in BLR by touching Mikuru(small) on the face? That theory assumes the TPDD is nanotech, so as long as she can call the constituent nanobots to her from inside Mikuru, where she touches her to transfer them shouldn't be important. She poked Mikuru(small) on her sleeping face because it's cute....
Indeed, the TPDD can be suggested to be in/around/proximity of Mikuru's face, and not "on" her face like an acne per se.
Reason to even suggest that is that, of course, the only point of physical contact between M(B) and M(S) is the face, but also later when Mikuru woke up the first place she checked for the lost TPDD is also her face.
What we do know about the future (which we know even less than the Data Entity and the Organization) is that they probably don't rely on external devices to implement technologies. Things are likely integrated into bodies (which we don't even know if bodies will be naturally produced or not) so that a) they can time travel anytime/anywhere, b) communicate sans handsets, c) travel without needing, say, boats, d) internet without needing, say, computers.
Nanotech is a possibility, because it's what Yuki uses to suppress Mikuru-beams and provide time-shields and what-not. But I have a (totally unfounded) theory as well. A physical manifestation of a future person could in fact be a walking-programmable-hardware capable of all device activities. Thus instead of nanobots floating the bloodstream, different regions of the body are programmable into specific machines. A Human iPhone. M(B) can thus remove TPDD from M(S) by erasing the local programming for it.
Mikuru isn't allowed to carry a weapon because, not per Kyon's usually misleading interpretation of possibly misplacing it, she might accidentally use it to kill someone a la Mikuru-beam. Guess what that'll do to her career future?
Kaisos Erranon
2009-06-27, 21:36
A Human iPhone.
Did you just say, "Human iPhone (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Phbe8mEDMe4)"?
Seriously though, I do like your theory about the time travelers actually BEING time machines. It's oddly... fitting.
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-06-27, 21:54
Kyon is a Time Lord and Mikuru is his TARDIS.
... Sorry, couldn't resist :heh:
I've always thought Mikuru is completely wired from head to toe, she obviously has a wired neural network for all sorts of purposes.
There could be able sorts of cybernetic implants, nanomachines and stuff integrated into her system.
Each time Yuki interacts with her, you can get a glimpse of what she may be equipped with. Like receiving data through touch and receiving treatment in the form of nanomachines.
All these technologies are already being researched and developed.
Did you just say, "Human iPhone (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Phbe8mEDMe4)"?
omfg...........
Kyon is a Time Lord and Mikuru is his TARDIS.
Actually Mikuru is the Time Lord, Side Kick, and the TARDIS. We are talking about (technological) singularity in the future.
All these technologies are already being researched and developed.
... by the Tsuruya-clan?
This might be really stretching it. But regardless of reasons, Tsuruya and Mikuru being in same grade and good friends, and subsequent interactions with SOS/Kyon, may not be entirely coincidental. (It's implied Mikuru had spent a year in North High prior to Haruhi and Kyon's arrival.) Being a time traveler Mikuru could have been inserted into any school year, but she's a year ahead of Haruhi & Kyon, her otherwise primary mission objectives. Could she have arrived early to build rapport with Tsuruya? Why? Naze? Unless the Tsuruya has a factor in her future, technology and/or Kyon-wise. This is a Harem story, afterall.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-06-28, 00:45
This might be really stretching it. But regardless of reasons, Tsuruya and Mikuru being in same grade and good friends, and subsequent interactions with SOS/Kyon, may not be entirely coincidental. (It's implied Mikuru had spent a year in North High prior to Haruhi and Kyon's arrival.) Being a time traveler Mikuru could have been inserted into any school year, but she's a year ahead of Haruhi & Kyon, her otherwise primary mission objectives. Could she have arrived early to build rapport with Tsuruya? Why? Naze? Unless the Tsuruya has a factor in her future, technology and/or Kyon-wise. This is a Harem story, afterall.
Harem elements. Haruhi is a sci-fi comedy story.
And yeah, I can totally see a "TSURUYA CORP." in the future.
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-06-28, 01:39
This is a Harem story, afterall.
Harem elements. Haruhi is a sci-fi comedy story.
... this reminds me of something...
"The SOS Brigade is not, and never will be a harem!"
"I heard that the SOS Brigade is looking for more harem members. Is the position of 'epitome of Japanese femininity' still open?"
"Sure!"
... by the Tsuruya-clan?Watch 'Next World' on Discovery Channel, you'll see how low tech most science fiction stories are. Many of these futuristic technologies being researched on makes reality more fantastic than fiction.
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-06-28, 01:51
Scientists caught up with the writers is all...
Kaisos Erranon
2009-06-28, 01:55
The only limit on what we can accomplish is our imagination, right?
Although, I suspect one reason that a lot of new technology and science aren't being used in recent sci-fi is because they're inconvenient to storytelling...
Yea those new technologies are being used in everyday life, which doesn't really add to a sci-fi plot lol
Some stuff I saw on the show include instantly transmitting data from one person to next just by touch. The human body is a good conductor of electricity, you can easily transmit gigabytes or even terabytes from a single touch. This is just like Mikuru.
Combined with all the brain implants, wireless brain signals, brain internets, saving brain memories as computer data etc, you can become Mikuru without time traveling.
Rearranging data to form stuff like Yuki? Look up Nanomachines and Claytonics, they will create anything from nothing or something to something else. They even claim that soon you can look up the internets and 'print' anything you want from online shops. You pay the blue prints and your Nanomachine printer will construct anything you bought, including your meals.
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-06-28, 02:12
I'd hate to get hit with an e-mail bomb, then :heh:
ShimatheKat
2009-06-28, 02:12
Harem elements. Haruhi is a sci-fi comedy story.
And yeah, I can totally see a "TSURUYA CORP." in the future.
Uh. There is a Tsuruya Dept. Store (http://www.tsuruya-dept.co.jp/) in Fukuoka. Yeah.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-06-28, 02:14
saving brain memories as computer data
As a psychology student, I can tell you that nothing really valuable is going to come from that. Our memories... are not the most accurate of data recorders... :heh:
I suppose it would be very useful for conceptualizing things you imagine, though.
The next step up from that would be using VR technology and the like to construct entire universes from the images in your brain.
In the future, you too can be Haruhi Suzumiya.
Uh. There is a Tsuruya Dept. Store (http://www.tsuruya-dept.co.jp/) in Fukuoka. Yeah.
They're totally working undercover with the Agency to produce nanotech.
Actually, I wonder if her name is an intentional reference, then... but then again, Fukuoka is nowhere near Nishinomiya.
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-06-28, 02:16
But then... anyone could be. Doesn't that take the fun out of it?
There's probably no such thing as concept or drafts anymore in the future, you link your imagination to the computer and it will create your product immediately with nanomachines lol
You won't be Haruhi yet, but you'll be very close to doing what data entities can do.
Be very careful ppl, or the Ontology Deportation Officers may want to check your ID's.
But while we're at it, the way I'm envisioning the Mikuru future is that their bodies have already been genetically modified be receptive to programming. And without resorting to invasive technologies such as nanobots, implants, etc., someone can just shoot a program over and rewire internal circuitry to "create an app" for that body.
One possible reason why Mikuru wants to keep her "device usage" a secret, esp. with Kyon, is perhaps instead of "not wanting to show Kyon how the machine works," it's "not want to freak Kyon out because there are no machines." Might not be the future he wants.
mitsuganae
2009-06-28, 10:53
Not so sure where to post this query, so mods please feel free to move or delete (and apologies in advance), but ...
... I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking that the centuries that Yuki had to endure in Endless Eight contributed to the inevitability of what she would do that would result in Disappearance, right? Perhaps the Yuki in standby mode from three years ago didn't know a time loop would happen (I'm really not sure about what "synchronization" with her future self entails). Besides, I would think that a few centuries of observation would put some kind of stress on her (to put it mildly). I mean, she couldn't even guarantee her stability for ten years into the future in Charmed at First Sight Lover (which might have something to do with her centuries in Endless Eight).
Kaisos Erranon
2009-06-28, 14:37
Not so sure where to post this query, so mods please feel free to move or delete (and apologies in advance), but ...
... I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking that the centuries that Yuki had to endure in Endless Eight contributed to the inevitability of what she would do that would result in Disappearance, right? Perhaps the Yuki in standby mode from three years ago didn't know a time loop would happen (I'm really not sure about what "synchronization" with her future self entails). Besides, I would think that a few centuries of observation would put some kind of stress on her (to put it mildly). I mean, she couldn't even guarantee her stability for ten years into the future in Charmed at First Sight Lover (which might have something to do with her centuries in Endless Eight).
This is pretty much implied by the novels themselves, yeah.
Also, I'm sure that she knew two things: a) That they would get into a time loop, and b) That they would get out.
She just didn't know when it would end. I imagine she woke up at the start of each loop thinking: "Maybe THIS time. Maybe THIS time..."
She can't do anything to speed it up or stop it, however. Because, after all, the future has already happened, and if one knows the future...
Her duty is to observe, after all.
Takamura Mamoru
2009-06-28, 14:48
This is pretty much implied by the novels themselves, yeah.
Also, I'm sure that she knew two things: a) That they would get into a time loop, and b) That they would get out.
She just didn't know when it would end. I imagine she woke up at the start of each loop thinking: "Maybe THIS time. Maybe THIS time..."
She can't do anything to speed it up or stop it, however. Because, after all, the future has already happened, and if one knows the future...
Her duty is to observe, after all.
That makes sense. I believe if she didn't know they would get out eventually, after 15,498 times she would have taken countermeasures.
I do think she's able to counter Haruhi's powers to some extent. Even if her duty is to observe, she would not achieve anything if she isn't ever coming out of the loop.
kniteowl
2009-06-28, 22:38
Not so sure where to post this query, so mods please feel free to move or delete (and apologies in advance), but ...
... I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking that the centuries that Yuki had to endure in Endless Eight contributed to the inevitability of what she would do that would result in Disappearance, right? Perhaps the Yuki in standby mode from three years ago didn't know a time loop would happen (I'm really not sure about what "synchronization" with her future self entails). Besides, I would think that a few centuries of observation would put some kind of stress on her (to put it mildly). I mean, she couldn't even guarantee her stability for ten years into the future in Charmed at First Sight Lover (which might have something to do with her centuries in Endless Eight).
Contributed?
I dunno, since to her it probably felt like the future was set in stone and regardless of what she did, it was bound to happen, whether she liked it or not.
during the 15000+ iterations of Endless8 she porbably felt bored but maybe relieved because the due date of December 18th was extended... almost like assignment/report due and getting a 594 year extension.
... by the Tsuruya-clan?
IIRC, that kid who Kyon saved from getting run over in The Melancholy of Asahina Mikuru, who he gave the turtle to in Intrigues, and who is lucky enough to have Haruhi as his home tutor, was credited somewhere as being the one who came up with the theories behind the TPDD, wasn't he?
IIRC, that kid who Kyon saved from getting run over in The Melancholy of Asahina Mikuru, who he gave the turtle to in Intrigues, and who is lucky enough to have Haruhi as his home tutor, was credited somewhere as being the one who came up with the theories behind the TPDD, wasn't he?
Yes the yet-to-be-named Father of Time Travel will indeed become .... the Father of Time Travel. He'll at least lay down the theoretical foundation, though I'm not sure if he'll invent the TPDD. Yuki seems not too fond of this particular technology.
[I must say if someone tells me she's going to use a Time Plane Destruction Device on me, I'd think twice regardless of how cute she looks.]
We were referring to the (implied) technology which seems to integrate devices into human physiology, and the possibility that the Tsuruya-clan could have something to do with that leading into Mikuru's future. No proof other than 1) Mikuru seems to time travel at will, despite repeat cloths changes, 2) communicate with future at will, 3) Mikuru a close friend with Tsuruya seeming too coincidental.
Blame Kadokawa for fans overanalyzing. If they'd just serve up vol.10 and beyond, we fans would just shut up and read, and none of this would become necessary.
Sir Jeeves
2009-06-30, 22:52
Blame Kadokawa for fans overanalyzing. If they'd just serve up vol.10 and beyond, we fans would just shut up and read, and none of this would become necessary.On another note, do you really think that there will be a "beyond"? I've been under the impression that the next book will be the conclusion.
Why do people think that book 10 will end? If you've read it, you should be thinking that it won't be ending so soon.
Novels can continue for many more volumes than just 10, take Shana for example.
Sir Jeeves
2009-06-30, 23:44
Oh, I know that there's no unwritten rule that stuff *has* to end in 10 volumes or less. But it looks to me like the story's gearing up for a finale, and I think it could be wrapped up in one book. The huge delay for book ten also adds to this feeling; it's as if the ending to the story is being held back to help prolong the hype and profitable life of the series for as long as possible.
Of course, I'd love to be wrong.
While Haruhi fans are resigned to face any and all possibilities thrown at them by the (publish/animat/auth)or these days, wrapping the story up by the vol.10 would render the entire series abso-f-ing-lutely [American], devastatingly [Brits], bloody [Aussies], chotto [Humanoid Interface] unreadable. Given the amount of mysteries, loose ends, and unexplained that Tanigawa painstakingly developed, to end all that in one volume he'll either have to spill everything like a text book, or leave some things unexplained, neither is consistent with his writing style.
I'm guessing the novels will get to the 3rd high school year, just because the transition into college signifies adulthood and responsibilities, Kyon making his choice then would be natural and conclusive (as does many other high school fictions). The first year we read, spanning 9 vol. and is mainly about the nucleation of SOS; not just members physically together but functioning as a team: Kyon = brain, Yuki = gun, Haruhi = nut, Itsuki = face, Mikuru = mascot. (come to think of it, sounds like A-Team+1). And like any competent serial novelist, when Tanigawa wrote about the first year he also laid the groundwork for the 2nd - the external threats to SOS-dan. We can imagine these threats becoming more interesting and entangled, but they're not going to be the (main) climax to this story. By the time Tanigawa finish off the 2nd year and he'd be hinting about the 3rd, possibly the fundamental purposes and intrinsic conflicts between the SOS members. It'll be impressive, because Tanigawa will have the vast arsenal of characters to play with and the freedom and skills to alter realities. It'll be awesome. It'll be scary awesome.
An A-Team analogy for Haruhi....
I guess Mr. T's character has to be played by both Yuki and Mikuru (both the group's muscle and icon/publicity person).
Just the order is so weird...probably because Haruhi and Kyon have their roles mixed up, since it is Haruhi who is always on the "jazz", and Kyon should probably be crazy after all this.
But then, who knows what weirdness we are in store for the remainder of Haruhi's second year of high school....or what they plan to do when Mikuru graduates.
Why do people think that book 10 will end? If you've read it, you should be thinking that it won't be ending so soon.
Novels can continue for many more volumes than just 10, take Shana for example.
Because the author seems to be out of ideas.
baltakatei
2009-07-01, 10:52
While Haruhi fans are resigned to face any and all possibilities thrown at them by the (publish/animat/auth)or these days, wrapping the story up by the vol.10 would render the entire series abso-f-ing-lutely [American], devastatingly , bloody [Aussies], chotto [Humanoid Interface] unreadable. [B]Given the amount of mysteries, loose ends, and unexplained that Tanigawa painstakingly developed, to end all that in one volume he'll either have to spill everything like a text book, or leave some things unexplained, neither is consistent with his writing style.
Leaving entire aspects of the plot unexplained has been done before. Take Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yokohama_Kaidashi_Kik%C5%8D) for example. After 14 volumes across 12 years, the manga never explains:
-Why humanity is dying out
-The nature of the disaster that reshaped Mt. Fuji & caused a sea level rise
-Who the owner of the main robotic female main character is.
Do we really have to know what happened to those 8 other people who saw the SOS Brigade emblem which infected the Computer President (5 of them being North High students)?
Do we really have to know where in the worlds of Haruhi we can find her playing piano as seen in the OP?
Is the discrepancy between Asahina Mikuru's explanation of a space-time as a series of disconnected frames and Kyon's observation of some continuity due to the events of Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody... is that discrepancy really important?
Is the fact that... *goes to sleep*
(9 hours later)
*wakes up* What? Oh, yeah. Anyway, I'm perfectly fine with having mysteries unsolved. It makes for easier fan fiction and doesn't rip the wings off the butterfly, to put it that way.
I myself would get hopelessly bogged down by all these loose ends. I imagine Tanigawa is itching to cut these loose plot threads off
wittyusername
2009-07-01, 11:02
Do we really have to know where in the worlds of Haruhi we can find her playing piano as seen in the OP?
Didn't she play piano in Sound Around?
Anyway, I'm perfectly fine with having mysteries unsolved. It makes for easier fan fiction and doesn't rip the wings off the butterfly, to put it that way.
I myself would get hopelessly bogged down by all these loose ends. I imagine Tanigawa is itching to cut these loose plot threads off
Which is perfectly fine. Whatever satisfies a reader from a novel is entirely up to him. This particular reader would like the biggies and central ones answered, and without which the Haruhi experience would be incomplete.
The Time paradox in BLR will, and should, be resolved, because Yuki said to Kyon "You'll get it." That's an implicit promise by Tanigawa to his readers that he'll resolve this by possibly yet another mind twisting, novels spanning demonstration. [I'm still favoring the parallel world interpretation to resolve the paradox a la John Titor.] Which would a) give him something to write {contrary to some opinions that he's out of ideas by vol.10}, b) gives Kadokawa something to print {you bet they'll milk every yen out of Haruhi that they can. Now and every 10 years there after.} and c) gives people like me something to read.
We may never know the specifics of the actors' guild known as the Organization, but at some point when Itsuki is free to express his true self to Kyon it's when the Organization's agendas would become apparent as well. Again I'd be very disappointed if Tanigawa doesn't get this far.
Yuki doesn't lie. Even when she's withholding information the act itself reveals information. The meanings of cryptic and quarky things she says and do will become more interpretable with more screen time, and Tanigawa can maintain all his subtleties and provide resolutions at the same time.
Jonbob0008
2009-07-02, 04:35
On a slightly different note, what do you think is going to happen to Mikuru at the end of the second year. We all know she's supposed to gratuate then. Do you think someone will replace her, like the slider? Either way, I'll be sad to see her go.
She wasn't one of my favorites, but I can't imagine the SOS Brigade being the same without her. :( Same goes to the others are well.
kniteowl
2009-07-02, 05:02
^
some people think Mikuru might return as Adult Mikuru in the diguise of a student teacher or even a normal teacher and may become the advisor to the Literatrue Club... and the series changes from Haruhi to GTM (Great Teacher Mikuru) kidding about GTM lol... Although for safety's sake She migth use the Alias Michiru, the alias Kyon gave her during Intrigues.
Personally I don't mind either way, at the very least Kyon will still see adult Mikuru in one form ,shape or another.
Jonbob0008
2009-07-02, 10:53
I had thought of this, too. If it does, I'd like to see how Kyon explains it to Haruhi. It could be interesting.
kniteowl
2009-07-02, 23:10
it doesn't need explaining, Michiru could say, she's Mikuru's Aneki or some relative, they look similar enough for it to be believable.
Sugar_Prayer
2009-07-03, 17:17
But what if Haruhi was still to make adult Mikuru do reveling cosplay? Couldn't she be kicked out of the school?
I can't think of a world without Haruhi-sama... :(
kniteowl
2009-07-03, 22:27
^ Haruhi has common sense you know, enough of it so the world isn't cover is blue giant monsters, I mean she was pretty kind & polite to strangers during Lone Island.
I doubt she'd consider Mikuru & Michiru the exact same person.
Peanutbutter003
2009-07-04, 07:01
And we'll have a Kyon tearful farewell with Mikuru and a big happy welcome to Michiru?
I'm so confused. :heh:
More like and 'Oh god, the manipulator is now among us full time' kind of welcome, I would think.
Vallen Chaos Valiant
2009-07-04, 19:08
More like and 'Oh god, the manipulator is now among us full time' kind of welcome, I would think.
The "Mikuru is evil" camp is starting to annoy me more than the "Kyon is God" camp...
Your lack of faith in Mikuru is disturbing.
Seriously, the whole point about every book before book 9 was to set the SOS-dan as a cohesive, united force, in order for them to face the challenges offered by the anti-sos-dan. The SOS-dan members have stopped second-guessing each other's motives; why couldn't you?
The "Mikuru is evil" camp is starting to annoy me more than the "Kyon is God" camp...
Your lack of faith in Mikuru is disturbing.
Seriously, the whole point about every book before book 9 was to set the SOS-dan as a cohesive, united force, in order for them to face the challenges offered by the anti-sos-dan. The SOS-dan members have stopped second-guessing each other's motives; why couldn't you?
She's not necessarily evil, just untrustworthy. Out of the whole brigade, she arguably contributes the least. Koizumi has the same potential of being untrustworthy, but it seems unlikely because he acts too suspicious to be untrustworthy. He and Nagato (IIRC) have stated their allegiance to the SoS brigade first, and their respective organizations second. Mikuru has done no such thing. She also does not hang around Kyon much, but this could be to subvert Haruhi's wrath. Also, she and Nagato seem to have some uncomfortable reactions to eachother, something not present between Nagato and Koizumi.
She doesn't seem sincere to me. I realize that she probably is trustworthy in all likeliness, but it's a theory I like to entertain. Her character isn't as deep as it could be so being untrustworthy, even if she's not a malefactor, would accomplish that.
Vallen Chaos Valiant
2009-07-04, 19:40
Koizumi has the same potential of being untrustworthy, but it seems unlikely because he acts too suspicious to be untrustworthy.
That kind of logic just fails, for me. In fact, it's not logic at all. It's more like bizzaro logic. Does one have to be untrustworthy on the outside in order to be trustworthy?
Sometimes, a spade is just a spade. Mikuru is shown to be exactly who she is shown to be, a helpless girl pulled by the strings of destiny whether she liked it or not. Kyon has far more control over his own destiny than she does. Mikuru doesn't NEED to be deep, i.e. twisted and dark. She is the "innocent" character, like Maya Ibuki of Evangelion. Taking that away doesn't make her deep, it just destroys everything she represented. If every time she cries in despair out of hopelessness, you imagine she is faking it all, it would completely alter the scene concerned.
If her tears are fake, then she is not Mikuru Asahina.
If Mikuru is malicious, there would not be a need for the Ati-SOS-dan to exist as antagonists.
We'll see (hopefully) how they play Mikuru(BIG) off Nagato late this season. Then we might see just how "untrustworthy" Mikuru is and how she reacts to Nagato even after being around her for a few years and then having grown up (someplace). I doubt we'll see anything other than fear out on Mikuru.
Mikuru's basic problem seems to be that she's there because history says she was there. What training she has seems to be just enough to function and obey orders in the "present". She's obviously in regular contact with her "home" time, but doesn't seem to get instructions to do stuff very often. She also has involutary mental blocks that prevent her from giving away knowledge of the future casually (it isn't a perfect block as she's been known to say strange things without being censored). But the weeping "classified information" spam during Endless Eight was funny.
Mikuru may be there only because she's meant to be there. She may never do anything other than observe and be there for Haruhi to play with. The bigger question, aside from Mikuru(plural) and the anti-SOS-dan's future guy...are there any other time travelers around Haruhi that have better information and are actively trying to find out why they can't go farther back in time than "the timequake of three years ago"? Is there a motive for the time travelers besides observe Haruhi? Does it matter to them that they can't go back farther in time? Could they do so before some point in time, go farther back than Haruhi's timequake? Or are they just trying to be sure the "time destroyer" (Haruhi) doesn't decide to destroy them all next time around by keeping her happy with her perfect play thing (Mikuru).
The thing is...why is Mikuru(BIG) overseeing part of the operation of Mikuru(small)? They shouldn't be from the same time period. Mikuru(BIG) states that she's not seen Kyon for a long time when he first sees her. This could be false, but she looks really happy to see him in a way that suggests she hasn't seen him in a while...or the last time she saw him he was dead or something, which would also expalin why she's happy to see him. She doesn't look all that much older than Mikuru(small), maybe 10-15 years older...but then future tech/(Harem-Key MILF-like subtance) could make her almost any age...in either form. Her off hand comments suggests Mikuru is from the far future rather than the near future (within Kyon's lifespan). A question would be how do the future humans get along with the aliens like Yuki...or do they even have contact with them still. Mikuru seemed to recognize Yuki somewhat on her first meeting, so there is something there. She also fears Yuki, though Yuki and Kyon seem to have no idea why (perhaps), though Yuki is admittedly the most powerful member of the SOS-dan short of Haruhi's full on reality warping powers...and Kyon's key control over all members of the SOS-dan.
Will we find out what's up with the Mikurus? I don't know.
quigonkenny
2009-07-05, 00:55
She's not necessarily evil, just untrustworthy. Out of the whole brigade, she arguably contributes the least. Koizumi has the same potential of being untrustworthy, but it seems unlikely because he acts too suspicious to be untrustworthy. He and Nagato (IIRC) have stated their allegiance to the SoS brigade first, and their respective organizations second. Mikuru has done no such thing. She also does not hang around Kyon much, but this could be to subvert Haruhi's wrath. Also, she and Nagato seem to have some uncomfortable reactions to eachother, something not present between Nagato and Koizumi.
She doesn't seem sincere to me. I realize that she probably is trustworthy in all likeliness, but it's a theory I like to entertain. Her character isn't as deep as it could be so being untrustworthy, even if she's not a malefactor, would accomplish that.
Wow... You really need to read this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YouFailLogicForever) and take it to heart...
Mikuru acts uncomfortable around Yuki because she is uncomfortable around Yuki. One of the few things she is fully aware of is just how powerful Yuki is, and just how easily she can make Mikuru's life a living hell non-existence. Itsuki doesn't act uncomfortable around Yuki because he doesn't act uncomfortable around anyone. His true feelings in any situation are almost universally hidden behind his Kitsune smile, and the few times he lets that mask down, it isn't pretty.
And I don't know where you got the idea that untrustworthiness has any correlation with lack of contribution. Mikuru doesn't contribute anything other than being cute, because she can't contribute anything else for fear of eliciting a paradox from Haruhi. Yuki can do whatever she needs to due to her massive level of ability. Itsuki babbles on and on about how things work because an inherent part of his ability is insight into Haruhi's psyche and his job is to regulate that, which requires a consuming knowledge of the "why"s and "how"s. To that end, he has a fair number of "coworkers" in the Organization (and Kyon) to bounce his ideas off of. Mikuru's abilities begin and end with looking cute, making snacks and tea, and travelling through time. The first two are harmless and simple, so she does them all the time (much to the betterment of Haruhi's mood, I'd wager), but the last one has to be strictly limited (at least around or involving others) for obvious reasons.
The thing is...why is Mikuru(BIG) overseeing part of the operation of Mikuru(small)? They shouldn't be from the same time period.
We don't know that Mikuru(big) oversees Mikuru(small). All we have to go on that is Kyon's questionable conclusion based on Haruhi-knows-what. In the few times we've seen Mikuru(big), all she's been is a more knowledgeable (and somewhat more mature, mentally) Mikuru, which is just what Kyon has needed at those specific times. No sign of heirarchy or control over Mikuru(small) has been evident (other than her ability to put her to sleep, which is a common enough ability by later in the series that a joke is made about it). One would assume she has some level of celebrity among her ilk (she spent all that time around Haruhi in her youth, after all), but she's still just a tool to them. She's just an older, more knowledgeable, and apparently wiser tool (though not enough to avoid blowing her job and creating an information paradox her first time out).
Big Mikuru is a hell of a lot more 'frightening' or 'intimiadating' (not the correct words, but nearly analoguous) in the manga than in the anime or light novels despite saying essentially the same thing. I'm not sure if this is because of the slightly different artstyle or what.
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-07-05, 01:24
It isn't Mikuru(small) that people are accusing of being evil, it's Mikuru(big). Which is caused entirely by Volume 7, where she had Kyon, among other things, injure someone just so he'd meet his future wife, as well as drag "Michiru" around so she could get kidnapped.
Vallen Chaos Valiant
2009-07-05, 02:58
It isn't Mikuru(small) that people are accusing of being evil, it's Mikuru(big). Which is caused entirely by Volume 7, where she had Kyon, among other things, injure someone just so he'd meet his future wife, as well as drag "Michiru" around so she could get kidnapped.
If I needed to get injured in order to meet the girl of my dreams, then HELL let me get injured. I fail to see the problem here.
And Mikuru was going to get kidnapped one way or another, the only question is which Mikuru. It was done for her own protection, so I don't see the problem here either.
Adult Mikuru is just young Mikuru who got older. I fail to see how they are any different from one another. The scene with the mole pretty much showed that she is still the same person inside.
Actually wasn't it done so that the kidnapping wouldn't happen in front of Haruhi? Because who knows what Haruhi would do if someone stole her favorate plaything from in front of her?
Vallen Chaos Valiant
2009-07-05, 03:05
Actually wasn't it done so that the kidnapping wouldn't happen in front of Haruhi? Because who knows what Haruhi would do if someone stole her favorate plaything from in front of her?
Either way, it was Kyon's choice to continue with the time loop; he was the one who sent Mikuru back in time, after all.
The fact is, the kidnapping was happening. It was something pre-determined, the question is what Adult Mikuru would do about it.
I still fail to see why that would imply Adult Mikuru is manipulating anyone. Adult Mikuru had no choice; she doesn't have the kind of freedom Kyon and Haruhi had in making their own destiny. Mikuru could only protect her own past. Manipulation assumes Mikuru had any SAY in the matter.
Which brings up my old-school theory, that the TRUE villains are trying to manipulate the past for real, by attempting to destroy the creation of the time machine.
And to do that, they would need to do more than just running over a schoolboy with a van; they would have to terminate ground-zero of the origin of time travel theory, of Haruhi herself.
THAT's manipulation, of the highest degree.
That may technically be manipulation, but only in the sense that punching someone in the face is technically a frank exchange of views.
I'm of two minds on the Mikuru Problem. On the one hand, there is evidence that both versions are exactly as presented, and that they are more or less functioning as time's hall monitors, keeping order and preventing others from monkeying with the past. One of these functions being, observing Haruhi which is the younger Mikuru's job.
On the other, and I'll admit right up front there's not much evidence beyond my own impressions, is that something isn't adding up. I can't shake the feeling that while they probably are everything they say they are, something else is going on too. Haruhi obviously picked everyone in the brigade to match up to her character profiles, but either she really struck it lucky in finding Mikuru, or she's tailor made for the role. Literally, whether she knows it or not.
Or on the immaterial hand, I'm being paranoid, possibly due to exposure to spy novels at a formative age.
l-l-lain
2009-07-12, 13:06
OK folks, here we are, suffering (or some few still enjoying, hehehe) Endless Eight, aka The Boredom of Yuki Nagato... I'd just like to offer a few thoughts on how, uh, "fixable" this situation is...
Suppose in some dream-world we fans had unlimited animation talent (and time :)), then heck, anything is fixable, we just re-animate the whole damn thing according to taste! But we don't - so...
I'm defining fan-fixing as taking the existing footage - maybe chopped up and time-shifted if desired, since that's easy enough - and re-dubbing/subbing the minimum amount required to achieve some change.
Good fan-fixing could be a new minor art-form: can a few minutes', even a few seconds', worth of change achieve a gigantic improvement to the whole way an arc goes? - and even to the way it fits into a whole series?
Well, I have some thoughts specifically about fan-fixing E8, but I'll put them in my next post, to keep this one as just "launching the concept"...
Next post to follow, internet connection permitting! :D
l-l-lain
2009-07-12, 13:43
Right! Over here in "Spoilers and Speculation" we can talk freely about the novels and all, huh? Well, if ever some story content was a motive for launching the concept of fan-fixing (see post above), it's the novel ending of Endless Eight.
Homework! Friggin' homework! What is this, a homily to the youth of Japan to mend their attention-wandering ways? If the anime delivers us that particular aspect of the novel, after all this repetition, then holy smokes, I foresee RAAAAAAAAGE of internet-cable-melting proportions. :D:D
(Yeah, I'm aware that it's meant to represent Haruhi's sublimated desire to be helpful to others, which as a card-carrying tsundere still in her tsuntsun phase she can't quite admit even to herself, but - homework! Nooooo! It just doesn't have adequate emotional significance for her - she's bright, she did hers long ago, it's just not a major part of her mental life!)
If you agree, and of course maybe you don't, then some serious fan-fixing is in order.
How about this then, folks:
The "SOS 4" are in a real panic as the current iteration is coming to a close. They hastily convene another late night meeting - opportunity there to use the stock footage from one or more of the dropped repeat iterations (presumably a pretty much unanimous initial fan-fix is to drop enough of the damn things to cut E8 down to size, hehehe) - and thrash out a plan to break Haruhi's subconscious preference for summer over term-time.
Basically she's on a quest for aliens, time travellers and espers... but in her heart she "knows" ("knows" falsely in fact, but... "knows"!) the real world contains no such things... so the term-time excitement of running the SOS-dan has faded for her, and all she really wants now is an endless summer of shallow fun.
Well then, someone can argue - I think Itsuki would be most in-character for this - why not plant in her mind, somehow, the idea of making a fictional movie with a plot stuffed to the brim with as much alien, time-traveller and esper goodness as she could desire? With the Movie Club's facilities ready and waiting to be hijacked in typical Haruhi style as soon as term starts, that suddenly makes summer the thing she desires to get over with, and term-time the thing she craves.
Without the ability to produce fresh animation, fan-fixing will probably just have to achieve this by a cheap hack - say, the SOS 3 beg Yuki to use her powers to inject this idea into Haruhi's mind, and (perhaps after a struggle with her own conscience about non-interference, easily representable by the copious footage of an anguished Yuki) she eventually agrees.
Hey, maybe she agrees on condition that she erases the SOS 3's minds that that's what she's done, so that, post-loop, everyone believes the movie idea is Haruhi's! Then Sighs doesn't need any consistency-fixing at all, hehehehehe :D
OK just my two cents' worth... thoughts welcome!
AcroDave
2009-07-12, 16:34
I'm defining fan-fixing as taking the existing footage - maybe chopped up and time-shifted if desired, since that's easy enough - and re-dubbing/subbing the minimum amount required to achieve some change.
This is a great idea! I'm thinking a re-edit of Clannad season 1 into a 2 hour movie... remove all the Nagisa & Fuko bits, extract out all the Kyou parts, and tack on the newly released Kyou-ending! :D
(Yeah, I'm aware that it's meant to represent Haruhi's sublimated desire to be helpful to others, which as a card-carrying tsundere still in her tsuntsun phase she can't quite admit even to herself
Is that what it was? Even after reading the novel, I never really did understand how doing homework together could break the loop. I hope they actually explain this better in the anime... assuming it ever ends... :(
Maybe Haruhi remembered Kyon's earlier comment about doing there homework. She stated that it would take three days for her to do it (and we assume she has already). But with Kyon's question, she might have in her mind that he hasn't done it yet, and realizes that she only gave him one day to finish his, thus making for one thing they didn't finished during summer. Thus she has regret and the looping starts. Why finishing the Homework breaks the loop? Haruhi now knows he's done with it so she's not worried anymore. Also it is suggested that she wanted to do one more thing during the summer, but either she couldn't put her finger on it, or else she wanted Kyon to come up with something, and he failed her (again, and again, and again, and again, and...). Thus doing their homework together fulfilled Haruhi's desire to have them all do stuff together the entire summer rather than have a day apart.
There are many ways to see it, just since we don't know what Haruhi was thinking, we'll never know for sure what it was. Only that it worked.
panzerfan
2009-07-12, 20:46
I don't want to second-guess what Haruhi might think of it, given that the sense of satisfaction from having someone 'elses' homework done isn't really so clear cut as the benefits to Haruhi can very alot, be it satisfaction of being helpful and/or it killed time.
I don't think footage editing of Endless Eight is required yet, as I am enjoying seeing the purposely done changes that KyoAni has implemented (which I took great pain to establish so that people can't easily say that it's just for convenience that KyoAni did it and not done so with full intent). Until then, why make life easier for people without the patience to finish all of it?
change from homework to let kyon hug haruhi from behind and said "I love you" like koizumi suggest may worth 6-8 episode of E8
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-07-12, 23:30
... While I'm sure a lot of people would love for that to happen, the story is, at its heart, a high school romance between two people who don't really want to admit their feelings about one another. It'd essentially ruin the entire purpose of everything beyond Endless Eight. :heh:
Time loop stories usually end when the first suggestion is finally taken.
The first suggestion was by Kyon. The second was by Itsuki. Neither has been taken to our knowledge in any existing loop. Though Yuki may know otherwise.
mitsuganae
2009-07-13, 02:59
... While I'm sure a lot of people would love for that to happen, the story is, at its heart, a high school romance between two people who don't really want to admit their feelings about one another. It'd essentially ruin the entire purpose of everything beyond Endless Eight. :heh:But consider the possibilities! An entire anime-original continuity could be spun. Imagine the end-of-the-world scenarios and other crises that can happen in:
The Dating of Haruhi Suzumiya
The Teen Pregnancy of Haruhi Suzumiya
The Marriage of Haruhi Suzumiya
The Divorce of Haruhi Suzumiya
The Single Motherhood of Haruhi Suzumiya
The Midlife Crisis of Haruhi Suzumiya
The Crimes of Haruhi Suzumiya
The Incarceration of Haruhi Suzumiya
But consider the possibilities! An entire anime-original continuity could be spun. Imagine the end-of-the-world scenarios and other crises that can happen in:
The Dating of Haruhi Suzumiya
The Teen Pregnancy of Haruhi Suzumiya
The Marriage of Haruhi Suzumiya
The Divorce of Haruhi Suzumiya
The Single Motherhood of Haruhi Suzumiya
The Midlife Crisis of Haruhi Suzumiya
The Crimes of Haruhi Suzumiya
The Incarceration of Haruhi Suzumiya
There would be riots if this happens :heh:
Anyway, since they messed up royally with E8, why not, at least it would be finally, something new.
panzerfan
2009-07-13, 03:33
I'd watch The Retirement of Suzumiya Haruhi and The Mortality of Suzumiya Haruhi...
TakariCritic
2009-07-13, 04:09
Homework! Friggin' homework! What is this, a homily to the youth of Japan to mend their attention-wandering ways? If the anime delivers us that particular aspect of the novel, after all this repetition, then holy smokes, I foresee RAAAAAAAAGE of internet-cable-melting proportions. :D:D
(Yeah, I'm aware that it's meant to represent Haruhi's sublimated desire to be helpful to others, which as a card-carrying tsundere still in her tsuntsun phase she can't quite admit even to herself, but - homework! Nooooo! It just doesn't have adequate emotional significance for her - she's bright, she did hers long ago, it's just not a major part of her mental life!)
If you agree, and of course maybe you don't, then some serious fan-fixing is in order.
Okay, I've been lurking here for a while, but you've made me feel compelled to post. Congratulations. Personally, I find it frustrating that so many fans are confused by the homework thing. I've been correcting people on 4chan for weeks about it. It's simple.
The reason why Kyon's study group breaks the timeloop is simple: It shifts Haruhi's mindset from vacation mode to the schoolyear.
Because Haruhi already did her homework, she spends her August 31st feeling unfullfilled over her summer break, and desires more. Kyon's study group has her spend her 31st with her friends in a last-minute cram party she's never taken part of before, and it also reminds her that she has more learning to do during the schoolyear.
Kyon simply doing his homework won't break the loop. He needs to have Haruhi there to break her out of the summer vacation mindset, and shift her paradigm back into school-mode.
/rant.
Peanutbutter003
2009-07-13, 04:27
There are also Kyonists out there with a theory why Endless Eight ends the way it did.
Because Kyon doesn't want to do his homework! :heh: Once he really sets his mind to it, the loop is broken. :heh:
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-07-13, 05:08
But consider the possibilities! An entire anime-original continuity could be spun. Imagine the end-of-the-world scenarios and other crises that can happen in:
The Dating of Haruhi Suzumiya
The Teen Pregnancy of Haruhi Suzumiya
The Marriage of Haruhi Suzumiya
The Divorce of Haruhi Suzumiya
The Single Motherhood of Haruhi Suzumiya
The Midlife Crisis of Haruhi Suzumiya
The Crimes of Haruhi Suzumiya
The Incarceration of Haruhi Suzumiya
Well... at least I wouldn't be the only one wanting to kill Kyon if this happens. :heh:
Okay, I've been lurking here for a while, but you've made me feel compelled to post. Congratulations. Personally, I find it frustrating that so many fans are confused by the homework thing. I've been correcting people on 4chan for weeks about it. It's simple.
The reason why Kyon's study group breaks the timeloop is simple: It shifts Haruhi's mindset from vacation mode to the schoolyear.
Because Haruhi already did her homework, she spends her August 31st feeling unfullfilled over her summer break, and desires more. Kyon's study group has her spend her 31st with her friends in a last-minute cram party she's never taken part of before, and it also reminds her that she has more learning to do during the schoolyear.
Kyon simply doing his homework won't break the loop. He needs to have Haruhi there to break her out of the summer vacation mindset, and shift her paradigm back into school-mode.
/rant.
I heard it floating around somewhere, but I prefered the other speculation - that Haruhi wants to feel needed by Kyon.
It's more... well, you know.
(The Mortality of Haruhi Suzumiya sounds fascinating, actually.)
I've always thought that Haruhi just wants to visit Kyon's house or do something that Kyon actually wants. Kyon doesn't seem to be all that enthusiastic for any of the events Haruhi has set-up.
So basically she just wants to spend time with Kyon on something that Kyon actually wants to do. Having a chance to visit his house and helping him do something makes her satisfied for the summer.
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-07-13, 07:44
Kyon never seems enthusiastic about anything, though. :heh:
*e* Well, with the exception of events involving Mikuru. He seems a little too happy in those cases.
AcroDave
2009-07-13, 13:07
Kyon never seems enthusiastic about anything, though.
Yeah, it makes me :eyebrow: to see that through all the loops of endless eight, Kyon looks the happiest when he's playing videogames with his little sister. :confused:
Kaisos Erranon
2009-07-13, 13:43
Yeah, it makes me :eyebrow: to see that through all the loops of endless eight, Kyon looks the happiest when he's playing videogames with his little sister. :confused:
Well, Kyon IS a huge siscon. :heh:
But I think it's just more that he's happier staying at home and doing nothing than doing anything else.
He'd be happier if his sister was huge...but then she's be more like Mikuru....
Actually he seemed happiest when the girls are showing off their new clothes. In each version he's very happy about Mikuru's choice. (ranging from "Good, very good" to "Excellent").
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-07-13, 14:41
... He's that way about anything Mikuru wears. :heh:
Kaisos Erranon
2009-07-13, 14:43
... He's that way about anything Mikuru wears. :heh:
He's just rather obsessed with her, as she can't do anything wrong in his mind.
The more paranoid among us would say that Adult Mikuru is taking advantage of this.
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-07-13, 14:47
No, the more paranoid among us would say Small Mikuru is taking advantage of it. Adult Mikuru is rather obviously taking advantage of the situation.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-07-13, 14:50
No, the more paranoid among us would say Small Mikuru is taking advantage of it. Adult Mikuru is rather obviously taking advantage of the situation.
Really? I've heard many arguments to the contrary.
I think it's fairly obvious that Small Mikuru is innocent, though. No one can keep up an act that long. Unless they were brainwashed. :uhoh:
Kaisos Erranon
2009-07-13, 14:58
"classified informaton"
Good point. Yeah, I bet she has some kind of Berserker Mode or something.
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-07-13, 15:18
Really? I've heard many arguments to the contrary.
Adult Mikuru? Didn't Kyon think she was taking advantage of him during Intrigues?
Good point. Yeah, I bet she has some kind of Berserker Mode or something.
A berserk Mikuru? That'd be an interesting sight. :heh:
You know, I was watching Mikuru episode 00 again and I noticed something I hadn't before. In the novel Yuki manages to stop all the pellets Mikuru's toy guns shoot at her....I haven't noticed that in the episode she's deflecting them with her wand. I'd thought they had just had it so there was nothing coming out of the guns. I guess having the volume up a little more than I usually have it helped as I could hear the pellets deflecting, then I looked closer and you can see the impacts on the wand.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-07-13, 15:22
Adult Mikuru? Didn't Kyon think she was taking advantage of him during Intrigues?
People bring up her behavior in Vol. 4 when I pull up that argument.
Though, we can generally take Kyon's insights about other people as true, unlike his statements about himself.
A berserk Mikuru? That'd be an interesting sight. :heh:
*cough*VN*cough*
You know, I was watching Mikuru episode 00 again and I noticed something I hadn't before. In the novel Yuki manages to stop all the pellets Mikuru's toy guns shoot at her....I haven't noticed that in the episode she's deflecting them with her wand. I'd thought they had just had it so there was nothing coming out of the guns. I guess having the volume up a little more than I usually have it helped as I could hear the pellets deflecting, then I looked closer and you can see the impacts on the wand.
Her wand shake lightly and make a weird sound on this scene. It is very sporadic, but it is probably due to Mikuru's awfull aim.
l-l-lain
2009-07-13, 16:37
change from homework to let kyon hug haruhi from behind and said "I love you" like koizumi suggest may worth 6-8 episode of E8
Hehehe, that might work, but as a loop-breaker it would be in both Haruhi's and Kyon's memories for the rest of the franchise, possibly requiring endless tweaking of dialogue forevermore to, uh, acknowledge! :D
(Also it would need to be fan-animated - remember I'm defining fan-fixing as clever minimal re-dubbing/subbing of existing footage, though I suppose we could be flexible if there are any animators with time on their hands lurking among the fanbase :D:D)
Okay, I've been lurking here for a while, but you've made me feel compelled to post. Congratulations. Personally, I find it frustrating that so many fans are confused by the homework thing. I've been correcting people on 4chan for weeks about it. It's simple.
The reason why Kyon's study group breaks the timeloop is simple: It shifts Haruhi's mindset from vacation mode to the schoolyear.
Because Haruhi already did her homework, she spends her August 31st feeling unfullfilled over her summer break, and desires more. Kyon's study group has her spend her 31st with her friends in a last-minute cram party she's never taken part of before, and it also reminds her that she has more learning to do during the schoolyear.
Kyon simply doing his homework won't break the loop. He needs to have Haruhi there to break her out of the summer vacation mindset, and shift her paradigm back into school-mode.
/rant.
Hmmm... you might be right... I'm going by the B-T translations, I can't read the originals, and it's not really clear at all (in the B-T) why homework should be so special... Trouble is, wouldn't lots of things switch Haruhi's mindset back to school-mode? Even just finishing her own "summer list", and noticing the calendar creep towards September? Homework just seems a weak point of the novel to me. But if you like it as a loop-breaker - then no fan-fixing required for you! :)
panzerfan
2009-07-13, 17:32
When I read the source as I translated that part of the novel (well, the whole of Rampage), I was not really able to point a definite reason as to why homework is so crucial. All of my reasonings fall into subjective view and as such are really from my own bias.
(Actually, I was thinking more than anything else that I was reading a 'hen' of Higurashi to be honest)
I do not like run of the mill fixing since some things that Tanigawa has written are meant to be cryptic and open to interpretation. I think I would enjoy a very well argued discourse that is flanked by chalk full of quotation instead...
About the summer homework.
Normally I'm the advocate for avant garde theories, and I like the one about Haruhi's intent on time looping is motivated by Kyon's unfinished business. She is known to be an astute observer, and this is a harem romantic scifi teen comedy.
However, adding my $.02 to the obvious and previously mentioned, homework copying is a well established "tradition" for the final days of summer, and Haruhi was hell bent on experiencing all summer traditions. It's inferred that her personality precluded any real friends before, at any school stage, and SOS being the first time she ever got any peer fun. [Just to indicate how old I am.] In Urusei Yatsura there's this part of Mendo about to experience instant ramen for the first time in his life, and the whole hoopla surrounding that. This homework thing for Haruhi is kind of like that.
panzerfan
2009-07-13, 17:58
Well, there is the added irony in that she hasn't has any real friend since she has never deemed any prior opportunity as valid ones to go after, and this was made blatantly clear even in novel 1 when Taniguchi reflected on Haruhi. There is something magical about that act of doing homework with others for Haruhi, which is obvious. Although what has been said about exactly what is the nature of her own sense of closure out of this act is elusive.
dnab advocates that it is a rite of summer for Haruhi that she feels that it is to be upheld for a 'proper' closure to summer vacation, while TakariCritic muses that Haruhi is able to change her mindset through being reminded of the school year ahead. Of course, the concept that dnab has also touched on is that her own craving for social interactions are compounded into this loop and the subsequent breaking up by doing homework with her friends.
The point I wish to raise is that it could've well been that the proper use of Haruhi's otherwise unplanned, free day is important to her, as that would've meant that the SOS Brigade did not rest at any given point of that 2 weeks. This would signal her success as a planner of nonstop activities and what a well-executed blitz through the remaining weeks of summer that would be if every loose end is tied up. I raise this point since Haruhi has always loathed indecisiveness and inactivity. She is not content about wasting any 'opportunity' that appears before her, and being the person that is tempted to seize and choke destiny by the neck, Haruhi would've found relief in that the last day is spent in a frantic pace for her entire brigade as the members prepare themselves for the vigors of what's ahead of them come September. After all, post-novel 2 Haruhi looks at her brigade as integral to her personal accomplishments.
Also consider that Haruhi seen to be one to follow all traditional holidays even if they are not all that observed. While she usually doesn't display traditional ideology in her activities she does seem to have some part of her that fuctions on the "this is how things are" method of reasoning. She can be perfectly polite, helpful, and traditional...she just only does it during specific instances.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-07-13, 18:27
Also consider that Haruhi seen to be one to follow all traditional holidays even if they are not all that observed. While she usually doesn't display traditional ideology in her activities she does seem to have some part of her that fuctions on the "this is how things are" method of reasoning. She can be perfectly polite, helpful, and traditional...she just only does it during specific instances.
Which is why she's still Chaotic: Her following of any kind of tradition or rules seem to be inherently random.
panzerfan
2009-07-13, 18:30
Ironically, what Kaisos said makes the monarchist the most extreme wing of politics today... given that the norm rests not with them. Haruhi being a stanch fellow to follow traditions would make her 'unique' given that such devotion isn't the norm statistically anymore.
I think part of the reason why Haruhi is in some ways kind of frightening is that (if the 'tradition' or the 'don't feel accomplished' theory of homework relativity is correct') she's basically effed up the entire universe for something incredibly minor.
Actually when it comes to effing up the entire universe pretty much any reason you give for it is kind of minor.
Sets the stage for all the weirdness of Sighs doesn't it?
spawnofthejudge
2009-07-13, 21:40
I thought she was waiting for Kyon to make a damn decision about something he wants to do and ask her for it, so she can give it to him.
That it ends up being homework is irrelevant.
CrowKenobi
2009-07-13, 22:00
I thought she was waiting for Kyon to make a damn decision about something he wants to do and ask her for it, so she can give it to him.
That it ends up being homework is irrelevant.Agree 100%! Since Mikuru got something she asked for... :D
panzerfan
2009-07-14, 00:26
Anyways, I do think we should return to look onwards at what-ifs of novel 10 and onwards, even if, and despite the fact that there's been little movement yet to advance the story further than our break. In addition, we have much more than a chapter of recursion to consider, unlike in other threads.
I am hoping to see Haruhi meeting with Sasaki actually. I for some reason see Sasaki as Yang Wenli and Haruhi as Reinhard going into a meeting as the two discuss their fundamental differences...
For me, Haruhi has this innate tendency to grab destiny instead of waiting on it and wrestle it to the ground, while Sasaki prefers to see the future unfold at its own pace. If anything, Sasaki base her viewpoint from observation while Haruhi from her own desires. What this means is that Haruhi seeks to bend the universe as she sees fit, together with those that she wants to be with, while Sasaki, although not indifferent to the issues of stagnation, think that the wrongs to a system should be self-corrected and she merely play her part in the total ecosystem.
The perfect irony is also that Haruhi has no awareness of how grand her reaches are, while Sasaki has no whim to steer the course despite having the map in front of her.
(this is how I look at the two anyways)
CrowKenobi
2009-07-14, 00:34
In other words: irresistible force meets immovable object? :D
Yin vs Yang?
Two sides of the same coin? :p
Possible, but things depend on if the Anti-SOS-dan will remain a fixture of the series, or if they are just a way to introduce the slider to the SOS-dan as a possible replacement for Mikuru when she leaves at the end of her third year (we assume she'll leave and be replaced by Mikuru(BIG) as a teacher.) They also loose Tsuruya at the same time plus much of the Computer Club, and a few other people who are third years now. But that shouldn't be for several more books.
If the Anti-SOS-dam remains a fixture of the series, they really can't be regular antagonists since they are suppose to be High School students (normal), as are the SOS-dan. Its not like they can have a silent war going on with Haruhi not knowing about it...especially if the goal is Kyon....can they?
Kyon is the only non-opposite character, unless the slider is the anti-Kyon, but then one side would have a slider and the other would not....unless there are two sliders. One being a Kyon type and the other being the one that wants to join the SOS-dan. This means that the Anti-SOS-dan would need to gain another new member for balance (if they no longer can get Kyon), but this would be a normal human (or to be weird, a slider from Haruhi's universe that hasn't left yet. Meaning someone that can slide between universes but is native to the one Kyon's from).
Weirdness happens. Yuki saves the day. (or Kyon, or Itsuki) things return to normal with the anti-SOS-dan still around to cause trouble later when they don't have their own homework to do or their own "fun" activites to plan. (The likelihood of Mikuru or Haruhi saving the day are slim to none since Mikuru just doesn't do saving and Haruhi is to remain unaware.)
panzerfan
2009-07-14, 01:05
Well, the issue will then extend itself to what is to come after the era of Haruhi?
Let us imagine Haruhi talking to Sasaki:
H: "How about it? Why not join the SOS-dan? I heard that you're in a group, but if you come over, we have the real deal instead of that bunch you're with that do nothing."
S: "That would be quite an honor, but one that I cannot accept."
H: "How is that? I mean Kyon's in here too..."
S: "That is because I am of no help to you..."
H: "Is that flattery or that you doubt my leadership skills?"
S: "Not at all!"
Sasaki raises her voice as she is thinking of how to break it to Haruhi without hurting the girl's ego. The thing that shocks me is that she doesn't seem to be afraid of this demi-god, but that she actually looks as if refusing this genuine offer is a guilty thing to do.
S: "If I were in your school, even without such an invitation, I would've flocked to your brigade. However, we are not in the same school, so I think I would harm the brigade by not actively contribute."
Sasaki takes a quick sip of the cola, no doubt to hide her embarrassment out of this clumsy explnation. Haruhi in turn also wolves down her own cup of cola.
H: "I don't think that your groupie's right for you. With all that you've been doing, getting zilch from them isn't really fair... and they seem rather cold towards you."
It's fine so long as these people don't actually do anything- that Sasaki obviously cannot say, so she has to openly get away with an excuse.
S: "I am more than satisfied about how things are... and I kind of like not really being noticed."
H: "You remain loyal to your group, I guess?"
S: "Hmm... well..."
While Sasaki is trying to stall for time, Haruhi drops her cup and begins to get serious about the conversation.
H: "Is the universal status quo really that great? How then can you say that the stupidity in having students elect useless student bodies is just fine?"
S: "..."
H: "That and... seeing your groupie dropping their heads when being told that they lack the number to form a proper club as they call it quits is fine? Wouldn't conforming to the status-quo the act of self depreciation and avoiding self-responsibility?"
Well, Haruhi has touched Sasaki-san's nerves.
S: "So, by this logic, you would be denying the worth of fire just because of forest fires."
H: "well..."
Haruhi crooks her head a bit. She looks strangely elegant while doing this...
H: "Well, what of the case of social change? Can we dispute the worth of revolution just because of Dumont and Robespierre?"
S: "I have to refute this."
H: "How?"
S: "The right to really change anything lies with the very people running the system. For example, when students vote in a council president, the responsibility rests squarely with the student body. That is important, for that the fault of absolutism lies in passing the buck onto the shot caller.
Not having the people accept this self-responsibility completely removes the pluses of having a capable yet strong leader while amplified under a poor leader. You should know that good leaders like you are hard to come by..."
H: "That's an interesting point, although I can only agree on surface. Are you trying to persuade me to anything?"
S: "That is not it..."
Sasaki gives an uneasy answer. She really is puzzled from the looks of it, since she has no intent to outsmart nor to convince Haruhi. She plays with the drinking straw to calm herself, I suppose.
S: "I... was just giving a foil to your standpoint. I think that it is important to have an opposing view to any topic, which is why I raised my point."
H: "There is no absolute truth, and it can't be summed up in one sentence, I guess that's your belief?"
S: "Belief is too strong of a word. Maybe absolute truth exists somewhere, as there is an answer to everything, but these arms are too short to reach for it."
H: "I don't think getting that absolute truth is needed. You should grab what you can with your own fists. This means that you don't have to take someone's shit."
H: "Come to think of it, don't you have people that you hate?"
S: "I do hate those that place themselves at a safe corner ans asking others to do all the hard works. It irritates me with no end! You're different. You always are at the head of everything. Sorry about this ranting... I ..."
H: "So you only approve me of that. I am glad to hear it!"
Haruhi belts this out and she seems to have lighten up considerably.
What should worry Sasaki from how I see it is to whom will the universe turn to after Haruhi is gone in order to keep that revitalizing spirit alive.
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-07-14, 01:51
S: "I... was just giving a foil to your standpoint. I think that it is important to have an opposing view to any topic, which is why I raised my point."
So... basically, Sasaki is pretty much like I'd be in this scenario? :heh:
quigonkenny
2009-07-14, 02:06
Hey, hey... Not so fast... I'm not quite ready to shelve the E8 discussion... ^_^
I thought she was waiting for Kyon to make a damn decision about something he wants to do and ask her for it, so she can give it to him.
That it ends up being homework is irrelevant.
I think that's part of it, but not all. Think about the primary thing in common among all the things they did other than Mikuru's goldfish catching and Kyon's homework. They were all planned out by Haruhi. But that alone obviously isn't what ended the loop, as they had goldfish catching a majority of the times through.
Now think of the one thing in common between all the things Haruhi planned and Kyon's homework, that Mikuru's goldfish catching didn't have. The former two sets involved all of the SOS-dan. The latter item only involved Haruhi and Mikuru.
So that makes Kyon's homework the only activity that Haruhi didn't come up with that involved everybody. Now, I'm sure the fact that it was particularly Kyon's idea didn't hurt...
panzerfan
2009-07-14, 02:36
Sigh. We're intruding on what the other threads have the liberty of looking at with endless eight. That's why I want to return to novel 10 discussion.
Kyon's groupie homework is an activity that Haruhi didn't come up with, that is true, as is with the goldfish. However, stating this would ignore the fact that Koizumi and Nagato have not contributed with an original idea, yet that's not so crucial to her eyes apparently.
As such, if Haruhi's not so concerned about Koizumi and Nagato giving an idea that would concern only Haruhi and the two members, then one might say that there's not much special about the goldfish catching per se, save that this matter is voiced aloud and registered.
I have statistical support for this as well.
-0.0129% of all loops had no Obon,
-2.82% of all loops would have Obon without Goldfish,
Essentially, this 2.82% indicates that Haruhi would've not done the goldfish under some circumstances, which would either be a change of heart or through Asahina not raising the point of wanting to catch gold fish. Given Haruhi being so headstrong about carrying whatever that goes on her fish and not compromising one bit, it leaves only that Asahina raising her voice and having the activity registered in as the trigger for the goldfish event to occur.
(I really, really don't want to take away from other threads on this subject anymore...)
Kaisos Erranon
2009-07-14, 04:34
CRACK theory of the day: Haruhi and Sasaki seem like, well, unbalanced people. Given their physical similarities, what if they were two halves of the same person?
Takamura Mamoru
2009-07-14, 05:09
Ugh, I hate Sasaki.
But in a way, she and Haruhi contrast each other in a lot of ways.
panzerfan
2009-07-14, 05:25
The mortality of Suzumiya Haruhi strikes me alot, and I would like to see what Kyon have to say when confronted with the hypothetical issue of having this engine of change, that chugs along without referring to any individual on the direction of the universe stopping one day, and this time, there's no Disappearance scenario to fall back on.
Filling the shoes of Haruhi the giant? Foster the rebel clause and give the ability to alter the direction and generation of new information for the universe to all the sentient entities? To fall into stagnation in a post-Haruhi scene and not care about that? Why, this sounds closer to LoGH than I thought.
spawnofthejudge
2009-07-14, 06:49
Kyon is the only non-opposite character, unless the slider is the anti-Kyon, but then one side would have a slider and the other would not....unless there are two sliders. One being a Kyon type and the other being the one that wants to join the SOS-dan. This means that the Anti-SOS-dan would need to gain another new member for balance (if they no longer can get Kyon), but this would be a normal human (or to be weird, a slider from Haruhi's universe that hasn't left yet. Meaning someone that can slide between universes but is native to the one Kyon's from).There isn't and won't be an anti-Kyon. Sasaki's group wants him and implies that they need him in order to win the standoff anyway, so making an anti-Kyon kind of ruins the dynamic. It's supposed to set up a choice for Kyon - Haruhi, the spastic unpredictable lovable mess of an energetic girl... or Sasaki, the slightly off-kilter girl he knew from middle school. The SOS vs anti-SOS is set up, so far, as a Kyon-centric story even more so than just that he's the narrator.
Now, after he makes his choice, they might try to find a replacement... but I doubt it.
Weirdness happens. Yuki saves the day. (or Kyon, or Itsuki) things return to normal with the anti-SOS-dan still around to cause trouble later when they don't have their own homework to do or their own "fun" activites to plan. (The likelihood of Mikuru or Haruhi saving the day are slim to none since Mikuru just doesn't do saving and Haruhi is to remain unaware.)I think it's significantly more likely that Haruhi could save the day completely accidentally than you seem to be implying here.
Kaisos Erranon's crack theory makes a little too much sense. :twitch:
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-07-14, 08:08
Well... it's certainly a lot better than the one where it's Haruhi and Kyon that are two halves of the same person...
Takamura Mamoru
2009-07-14, 08:33
To be honest, Haruhi and Kyon contrast each other even to a more extreme degree.
A crack theory is a crack theory, but they really seem like polar opposites.
Although it doesn't seem like they repel each other because of that. More like... complement. They both (sort of) force themselves to be unbalanced people, while they represent the missing balance to each other.
Kyon forces himself to be a rationalist, Haruhi is the embodiment of temperament and creativity. Haruhi wishes to be that force of escapism, Kyon is rational and down-to-earth.
I don't have to mention that deep down they both are respective opposites yet again. Deep down, Kyon still wishes for crazy stuff and cool fiction to exist. Haruhi knows it can't exist. Maybe it could be said that Kyon is in denial while Haruhi is riddled with doubts.
And then we have the character development, Kyon learns that he likes that whacky adventure and Haruhi learns that the "normal" world isn't so bad after all, you just have to try and find your place in it.
Eventually, they may balance each other out, which I believe is also the message of the show. Neither escapism nor this heavy anti-escapism is "right".
Maybe I derailed from the topic now. :heh:
quigonkenny
2009-07-14, 10:51
Sigh. We're intruding on what the other threads have the liberty of looking at with endless eight. That's why I want to return to novel 10 discussion.
-snip-
(I really, really don't want to take away from other threads on this subject anymore...)
Forgive me if I don't let your feelings on the matter influence what I want to post about. This is a catch-all topic, and more importantly a naked spoiler zone, which is why we can talk about the metrics of the solution to Endless Eight, since that solution in itself is a spoiler, and thus something of which there is no "liberty" of discussing in those other threads. Therefore nothing is being "taken away from" those threads.
Whatever. I just wanted to get the idea out there.
TakariCritic
2009-07-14, 11:20
Whenever people discuss Sasaki, I always get the same feeling that they perceive Sasaki as WANTING to be in the Anti-SOS Brigade.
This is not the case.
Sasaki has already made her feelings known that she doesn't want Haruhi's abilities, nor does she share the feeling of nakama for Kuyoh, Kyouko, or Fujiwara that the SOS Brigade has for each other. The only reason I feel she allowed Kyouko and the others to hang around her was out of politeness, and a small interest of what they had to say about what was happening to Kyon.
Sasaki is not the enemy.
spawnofthejudge
2009-07-14, 11:41
Sasaki has already made her feelings known that she doesn't want Haruhi's abilities, nor does she share the feeling of nakama for Kuyoh, Kyouko, or Fujiwara that the SOS Brigade has for each other. The only reason I feel she allowed Kyouko and the others to hang around her was out of politeness, and a small interest of what they had to say about what was happening to Kyon.
Sasaki is not the enemy.Well...
Sasaki is, however, an enemy of Haruhi if only in that she probably has some sort of design for Kyon. In Haruhi's mind, that's unacceptable, if only she knew.
Also, you seem to be implying that anyone beyond the anti-Koizumi (is that one Kyouko? I forget :() seems to actually want to be in the Anti-SOS Dan. None of the others seemed particularly happy to be there. It's a bit of alliance of necessity (the enemy of my enemy is my friend), but built on rather shaky ground. The Anti-SOS isn't an enemy in and of itself... only its constituent members are, and all for different reasons.
Until they manage to have their alliance become stronger than just necessity. Then they might become a threat and entity until themselves/itself. Until then, Kuyoh is a threat because she's a being that can't be directly communicated to by Yuki's faction and just as powerful; Kyouko is a leader for a faction that opposed Koizumi; Fujiwara's a jerk and opposes Mikuru's faction. And Sasaki may be interested in Kyon himself... but not for any reason that might make the others happy. Just the result if she were to... succeed... in an endeavor that made Kyon less close with Haruhi.
My only assumption is that Sasaki's interested in Kyon's time. I don't think it's an awful stretch.
TakariCritic
2009-07-14, 11:52
Oh, I know the others don't wish to be there. And we only really know the motives of Kyouko, the other two's desires are still veiled. I can guess though, that the Canopy Domain is interested in the absolute data manipulation Haruhi posseses, and has reached some sort of agreement with the IDTE not to interfere with HARUHI. However, if that ability were transfered to a new subject, they'd be free game.
The way Fujiwara acts and speaks leads me to beleive that he already knows what's going to happen, and is very bitter about it. Just like Yuki was when she sycnchronized all the time. Now, wouldn't it make sense if Fujiwara was angry at Mikuru(big) for being the one who told him what was to happen? He'd of course take action to get revenge, but ultimately he KNOWS that's what he was pre-determined to do and what worse, he knows he won't succeed, making all of his attempts pointless. (Mikuru(big) is a huge bitch if that's the case.)
panzerfan
2009-07-14, 17:35
In answering quigonkenny, I have to say that Endless Eight discussion outside has become cyclical feeding itself negatively that, from a positive standpoint makes one want to look at the solution here. I took it negatively so as to think it'd be beating on the one-chapter dead horse.
I think we all stabbed at the matter regarding why that act of having everyone doing homework, being the plot device that terminated the loop, is significant. I mean it becomes so obvious that quigonkenny didn't need to refer back to what I wished to add regarding to the homework specifically anymore.
As for the look at novel 10 onwards...
Whenever people discuss Sasaki, I always get the same feeling that they perceive Sasaki as WANTING to be in the Anti-SOS Brigade.
This is not the case...
Sasaki is not the enemy.
This I share in sentiment strongly, given how that she has resolved to adopt a Chamberlain-like viewpoint in novel 9, and her actions are merely that of semi-appeasement towards Fujiwara, Kuyoh and Tachibana for the time being.
spawnofthejudge is correct in that Sasaki has more to gain from Kyon than any other individual, be it even from Haruhi. Pragmatically speaking, Kyon holds the final say in matter that Haruhi will overlook and for someone with an agenda to leave as much decision making to the natural course, it would be Sasaki's interests to lobby Kyon into a liberalist approach.
Canopy domain and data entity both recognize the evolution potential of Haruhi, but as TakariCritic has suggested, it remains to be seen if Snow Mountain is a one-off or a prelude of what's to come from the canopy domain.
Fujiwara we can say with even lesser degree of certainty.
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-07-14, 17:47
As has been said before, the Brigade was fully capable of surviving in the mansion the Canopy Domain set up. Their only apparent target was Nagato, but the damage done to her may have even been self-inflicted.
As has been said before, the Brigade was fully capable of surviving in the mansion the Canopy Domain set up. Their only apparent target was Nagato, but the damage done to her may have even been self-inflicted.
Nagato was also the only target on Volume 9. Maybe Canopy Domain has a problem with the Integrated Data Entity insted? Or it was just because she is a obstacle? But then, obstacle to what? What is their plans?
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-07-14, 18:11
Kimidori was also targeted in Volume 9. While Sasaki gaining Haruhi's abilities may very well be something that would help them out, they seem more interested in taking out the Data-whatever's interfaces.
spawnofthejudge
2009-07-14, 18:16
Kimidori was also targeted in Volume 9. While Sasaki gaining Haruhi's abilities may very well be something that would help them out, they seem more interested in taking out the Data-whatever's interfaces.I got the implication that they considered them a threat; a slightly nuanced difference between that and simply wanting to take them out.
I got the implication that they considered them a threat; a slightly nuanced difference between that and simply wanting to take them out.
Yeah, but why be so gentle on the Snow Mountain? They understand something as abstract as compassion (the Integrated Data Entity surelly do not)? What are their objectves?
panzerfan
2009-07-14, 18:25
Until Kuyoh has had her dialogue with Kyon, we can only speculate. Every single character revealed some of their intents to Kyon (subsequently the readers) through such dialogue.
Kyon already has the best summary information on all the parties, including Haruhi, despite it being of his own bias. I wonder what more will be added to that...
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-07-14, 18:28
I got the implication that they considered them a threat; a slightly nuanced difference between that and simply wanting to take them out.
That's true. Perhaps I worded things incorrectly. What I should have said is that the Canopy Domain's interest at this point in time seems to be mainly hindering or even harming the Data-whatever, with learning what they'd need from Haruhi or Sasaki coming second. While it isn't the most productive strategy, it may just work for them.
Or rather, it would work for them if they weren't designated antagonists. :heh:
Perhaps instead of just observing Haruhi they wish to provide a situation and then observe. Instead of waiting for something to happen and then observe what happens, they will cause something to happen and observe the reaction (much like what Ryoko was attempting). However there are questions. Do these attempts damage IDE aliens or does Yuki's faction actually react first by countering as much of the incident as possible by making an escape mechanism so that they can maintain their own pattern of strick observation without intervention towards Haruhi. (and thus keep Haruhi from reacting to thing but instead being the cause of things to happen).
My question on the rest of the anti-SOS-dan: If the plot resolves in book 10 with Kyon staying with Haruhi, then what point will the anti-SOS-dan have in the aftermath. They should no longer be able to simply attempt to get him to switch sides/transfere power. Thus what is their purpose after that?
Will they remains as an antagonist faction in a super villians fashion, or will it be more mundane with them just being a rival club in certain activities?
I just can't see them remaining a unified force if the mission for Kyon fails. Unless the story remains branched with one having them fail and one having them succeed. Or if they manage to gain a version of Kyon...but then the mission to gain Kyon is just to transfere Haruhi's powers...so that does not entirely work either.
Unless the anti-SOS-dan is simply a way to end the story. They manage to transfere Haruhi's powers but remake the universe so that the powers don't exist. Either all the non-humans vanish, or become "normal" thus allowing for Kyon and Haruhi to continue as a normal relationship. But that is a rather boring way to end the series as well as ending the mysteries by wiping them out is a rather shotty way to get rid of them.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-07-14, 18:45
The Anti-SOS have the makings of recurring villains. Perhaps what happens in Vol. 10 forces them to stick together... or maybe they all just transfer into Sasaki's school.
Man that would rather suck for her, huh? :heh:
Although I think what they need to continue to be important is their own Kyon to narrate stories about them. That would be awesome.
...There ARE two Kyons in Vol. 9/10...
panzerfan
2009-07-14, 19:12
(Points Kaisos to the issues within Quantum Mechanics respective of Kyon A and Kyon B)
Takamura Mamoru (http://forums.animesuki.com/member.php?u=97817) earlier mentions how that Kyon and Haruhi have been opposites of each other, and I think that it is true to some extent. He and Sasaki share alot of common ground about how that they both have doubts regarding reckless reshaping of things, that they both are cynical regarding their individual ability to affect the grand outcome.
However, Kyon has become discontent with his own doubts and cynicism (due to Haruhi) whereas Sasaki embraces them.
I actually view that Sasaki's biggest motivation in having an anti-SOS is to keep all of these meddling interests around her in interfering the normal flow of the universe, and she then can ask Kyon to approach the Haruhi situation, through talking to Kyon about how it is important that he considers the post-Haruhi world and make the provisions so that the universe won't lose its heading after having the irreplacible Haruhi gone one day.
Haruhi on the other hand, might have in her interest, the expansion of SOS, thus meaning that she might want to, when opportunity arises and she becomes aware of Kuyoh, Tachibana and Fujiwawa, to subjugate them all as to make the universe more fun that way.
This is where I imagine that a delicate balancing act of sleeping next to the Haruhi elephant will play out for both Sasaki and Kyon. Sasaki has to keep a motley crew away from Haruhi somehow so that the rest of the anti-SOS can achieve nothing, as she maintains partnership with Kyon while painfully aware of the relationship he has with Haruhi.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-07-14, 19:29
Who says Haruhi can actually die? Ever?
Takamura Mamoru
2009-07-14, 19:37
Who says she can't?
It's sorta like wanting to jump into a black hole. You're not really sure what will happen, but you don't wanna try it.:uhoh:
Kaisos Erranon
2009-07-14, 19:46
"This world moves according to the desires of Haruhi Suzumiya", right?
If she doesn't want to die, I don't think she can.
panzerfan
2009-07-14, 19:46
And that's the thing. Rationally speaking, the impact of losing such a change agent is incalculable, and even if the prospect of it ever coming to that point (through natural causes and whatnot) is not certain, there exists this possibility for Haruhi is still mortal.
For when Haruhi stops, the data entity loses an evolutionary potential, the espers would lose the very thing that forced them into being and even if the future does exists, is it the Asahina view or the Fujiwara view that's more accepted? The impact on humanity would weight in from looking at the time travelers from Sasaki's vantage point.
I don't think Sasaki can make the call on whether if she can die or stops, but she definitely can see the problem coming if Haruhi stops or dies.
Takamura Mamoru
2009-07-14, 19:52
If the world were to move according to Haruhi's desires, why are there relationships between Kyon and X that make her jealous?
While I do believe that her powers activate when she really wants something, I don't think they influence the world all the time.
Another problem is if Haruhi gets killed before even being able to react to it.
As Koizumi said, maybe the world will end or maybe it will just go on without a change.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-07-14, 19:56
I'm sure her subconscious has set up some kind of contingency so that she revives when she dies.
panzerfan
2009-07-14, 19:57
Well, I suppose it depends on perspective. It is true that Haruhi really doesn't seem to always get what she would like, perhaps due to internal doubts and whatnot, form an observer's perspective, a ridiculous amount of power has already been concentrated in Haruhi's hands, and anything that she really wish it to be is to, at least based on how observer would see this within the Haruhi settings.
Planning for a scenario where the world ends is rather foolhardy, so the obvious assumption would be that Haruhi would've left permenant marks on the universe that people after have have to contend with, one way or the other.
The question then becomes... would it then be advisible to have the successor rule by dictat and consolidate that kind of ability, while being even more inept than Haruhi, or that it should be up to every stakeholder within the universe to cope with that scene, as they struggle and bicker amongst themselves based sorely of their unique interests?
If Haruhi would just rise as Jesus did, then the situation would be fine, since Haruhi is still Haruhi and thus 'predictable' in this sense. Unfortunately though, either some will wait for Haruhi's natural demise or the radical in the Curia will do away Haruhi as Brutus did Caesar, if they see Haruhi having such consolidated power as too dangerous for the general good of the universe.
(Now, the prospect of Octavian coming in and clean house and becoming another Caesar authoritively wise would be a whole other ballgame)
Kaisos Erranon
2009-07-14, 20:01
Again, I think that planning for such a situation is futile. We don't even know if Haruhi can die, and even if she can, she's lucky enough that I doubt it will be from an accident.
In mythology, gods are inevitably immortal. Why not her?
Besides, Haruhi as a series is way to light to even consider possibilities like that. She's in the title, she can't die. :heh:
panzerfan
2009-07-14, 20:05
Well, my conjecture is that Sasaki will have to have this line of thinking regarding Haruhi, since Kaiso's view regarding would be that of Haruhi's perspective. The foil will come in when the concept of "filling in the shoes of someone so great as Haruhi when her era is over" comes into conflict of "the great era of Haruhi is far from over, if ever".
From Haruhi's point of view, looking at that possibility where Haruhi is not at the helm isn't worthwhile, but the foil would be that it must be considered. The issue isn't to debate the value in what Haruhi does anymore, but of who really stops the buck if Haruhi will not be able to metaphorically accept them anymore?
TakariCritic
2009-07-14, 20:07
If Koizumi is right about Haruhi'spower slowly diminishing, I'd say the best course of action would be to stay the course. Leave Haruhi alone, don't seek to provoke her ability, and react to her outbursts when necessary. Haruhi's abilities haven't been triggered in a LONG time, and hopefully, they'll stay dormant. After all, the SOS Brigade has proven that they can at least prevent the end of the world (even if it takes Kyon 15000+ tries to do it.)
Also, I disagree that Sasaki has romantic feelings for Kyon, and that Kyon has romantic intentions for Haruhi.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-07-14, 20:10
Well, my conjecture is that Sasaki will have to have this line of thinking regarding Haruhi, since Kaiso's view regarding would be that of Haruhi's perspective. The foil will come in when the concept of "filling in the shoes of someone so great as Haruhi when her era is over" comes into conflict of "the great era of Haruhi is far from over, if ever".
From Haruhi's point of view, looking at that possibility where Haruhi is not at the helm isn't worthwhile, but the foil would be that it must be considered. The issue isn't to debate the value in what Haruhi does anymore, but of who really stops the buck if Haruhi will not be able to metaphorically accept them anymore?
Why? If Haruhi can't consider it, it probably won't happen.
And besides. Sasaki hasn't really shown any kind of behavior that suggests she cares about much of anything at all, least of all what would happen if Haruhi died.
As of Vol. 9, as I recall, she still doesn't even believe that aliens et al. even exist.
Also, I disagree that Sasaki has romantic feelings for Kyon, and that Kyon has romantic intentions for Haruhi.
Kyon's feelings for Haruhi are... pretty obvious even if Kyon won't admit it.
Sasaki's feelings for Kyon... we don't know.
Kyon's feelings for Sasaki... I suspect a failed crush he'll never admit, either. But that's just me.
panzerfan
2009-07-14, 20:17
Well, why would it matter to Haruhi what others are considering? Whether if it happens or not is insignificant since it's like staring at totally different information from two different views that don't cross...
Besides, the reason why I would suggest Sasaki being put into the position of evaluating what to do to restore equilibrium, when this lover of normalcy is in a pinch by the weirdos ruining tranquility as Sasaki is forced to sit right beside Tachibana and co., as the trio do their thing. Minimizing potential havoc would be something that this firm believer of non-intervention would be pitted to do. It's be against every natural fiber of Sasaki, but letting Kuyoh and Tachibana having their go at Haruhi would essentially be problematic for Sasaki if she wishes to have any resemblence of a tranquil life...
TakariCritic
2009-07-14, 20:18
Kyon's feelings for Haruhi are... pretty obvious even if Kyon won't admit it.
I'll admit that Kyon sometimes comments on her beauty, but that's not romantic, it's simply an observation of her physical body. To me, Kyon comments much more on how frustrating and annoying Haruhi is to him, even if he admires her initive and assertiveness from time to time.
Of course, I do confess that my observations regarding Kyon's feelings towards Haruhi may be bias, given I'm routing for a Kyon/Yuki pairing in the end.
spawnofthejudge
2009-07-14, 20:19
Kyon's feelings for Haruhi are... pretty obvious even if Kyon won't admit it.
Sasaki's feelings for Kyon... we don't know.
Kyon's feelings for Sasaki... I suspect a failed crush he'll never admit, either. But that's just me.Yeah, we definitely run into the uncertainty of an unreliable narrator here. It's pretty obvious Kyon carries some sort of flame for Haruhi, but Sasaki is muddier than any previous relationship shown. Sasaki's own thoughts are equally opaque, but that's mainly because Kyon's terrible at reading her.
Of course, I do confess that my observations regarding Kyon's feelings towards Haruhi may be bias, given I'm routing for a Kyon/Yuki pairing in the end.As much as that might be fun, I think someone's deluding themselves :p
Kaisos Erranon
2009-07-14, 20:22
Besides, the reason why I would suggest Sasaki being put into the position of evaluating what to do to restore equilibrium, when this lover of normalcy is in a pinch by the weirdos ruining tranquility as Sasaki is forced to sit right beside Tachibana and co., as the trio do their thing. Minimizing potential havoc would be something that this firm believer of non-intervention would be pitted to do.
See, Sasaki strikes me as dangerous. Haruhi is built off of archetypes, and Sasaki has a hell of a lot of repressed emotions. Characters with repressed emotions are NEVER stable people.
Exactly what do you think she'd do if, in Vol. 10 Beta, she managed to gain the powers?
Of course, I do confess that my observations regarding Kyon's feelings towards Haruhi may be bias, given I'm routing for a Kyon/Yuki pairing in the end.
See, here's your problem. *grumble*goddamn Yuki shippers*grumble*
Seriously though, read between the lines more. :heh:
Kyon sticks around Haruhi because he's concerned about her and her well-being. He's also a tsundere. Read his narration with that idea in mind, and you'll see what I mean.
It's pretty obvious Kyon carries some sort of flame for Haruhi, but Sasaki is muddier than any previous relationship shown.
Kyon's flashback dream suggests that he was at the least physically attracted to her (and, of course, she laughs at him when he says this).
In LOVER, he mentions that he thinks about her "every few days or so"... and Vol. 9 reveals that he's never contacted her once since middle school.
I'd think that Kyon was really into her, but due to her personality it never went anywhere. He didn't contact her because he was rather bitter about it.
Also, notice that she and Haruhi are similar appearance-wise.
Just another half-CRACK theory from me.
panzerfan
2009-07-14, 20:26
If Sasaki does gain Haruhi's power, she'd be her own walking contradiction... as her own existence would be significant, and that she would be abnormal comparing to humanity and that she would have question whether or not if this is indeed what the unaltered system of the universe would've lead to... I can only conclude that it'd be the same what if of "dictator Yang Wenli" in that case.
Somehow, she has to come up with her own metric of what is normal in an unaltered universe, and then act according to that model, with Haruhi power or not. With makes it easier to bend everything to her own perception of an unaltered universe, while without means that she must contend with a changing universe.
(I guess I really didn't consider romance into the equation... come to think of it)
TakariCritic
2009-07-14, 20:27
As much as that might be fun, I think someone's deluding themselves :p
I don't regard it as delusional. After all, if Haruhi's powers truely ARE diminishing, eventually she won't be able to rewrite exsitance should Kyon persue a different girl. Also, once the ability to create absolute data has disappeared, I'm sure the IDTE would have no more us for their interfaces, and thus give Yuki the freedom to do as she pleases.
And even the most rabid of Haruhi/Kyon shippers cannot deny Yuki's feelings for Kyon. But let's attempt to refrain from transforming this to a shipping war.
panzerfan seems to think Sasaki will be much more active than I do. To me, Sasaki seem the type to simply observe, not to interfere. She humors Kyouko's request for a meeting to learn more about her surroundings, and once faced with an obsticale (ie the phone line being busy when she attempts to call {thank you slider-tan}), she shrugs and gives up. Another foil to Haruhi's never-give-in attitude.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-07-14, 20:28
(I guess I really didn't consider romance into the equation... come to think of it)
...If Sasaki does harbor some kind of repressed feelings for Kyon, what would be the first thing she's do with her power?
I sense a Vol. 4-ish (http://wiki.sos-dan.com/w/images/4/4e/Ce3_greeting.jpg) scenario (http://wiki.sos-dan.com/w/images/4/4e/Ce3_afterschool.jpg) coming on...
I don't regard it as delusional. After all, if Haruhi's powers truely ARE diminishing, eventually she won't be able to rewrite exsitance should Kyon persue a different girl. Also, once the ability to create absolute data has disappeared, I'm sure the IDTE would have no more us for their interfaces, and thus give Yuki the freedom to do as she pleases.
More likely they'd just delete her.
What do you do with programs you no longer need?
panzerfan seems to think Sasaki will be much more active than I do. To me, Sasaki seem the type to simply observe, not to interfere. She humors Kyouko's request for a meeting to learn more about her surroundings, and once faced with an obsticale (ie the phone line being busy when she attempts to call {thank you slider-tan}), she shrugs and gives up. Another foil to Haruhi's never-give-in attitude.
Kyon would do the same thing.
I really wonder how much of Kyon's current personality is based off of Sasaki.
spawnofthejudge
2009-07-14, 20:31
Kyon's flashback dream suggests that he was at the least physically attracted to her (and, of course, she laughs at him when he says this).
In LOVER, he mentions that he thinks about her "every few days or so"... and Vol. 9 reveals that he's never contacted her once since middle school.
I'd think that Kyon was really into her, but due to her personality it never went anywhere. He didn't contact her because he was rather bitter about it.
Also, notice that she and Haruhi are similar appearance-wise.
Just another half-CRACK theory from me.I like this.
I submit one edit: Kyon discovered it hadn't worked, and he never tried because he didn't think it would go anywhere. He seems too... lazy to bother with bitterness about it for that long.
panzerfan
2009-07-14, 20:33
Well, what prompted me into basing my notion around Sasaki doing anything she in fact has no will to do... is her love of the ordinary and orderly nature of things. The argument hangs in that if she idly sit and watch Tachibana, Kuyoh and Fujiwara, she will then be dragged like a ragdoll and horribly implicated, turning her own order into a mess and unleash who knows what on the universal order.
And if one is to act on the notion of abiding by this normal self-order, it would come to be intolerable when one's own self-order is to be compromised like that. That would mean that Sasaki has to play the game of the other three and contain them as to dampen if not eliminate all of their ability to sway the natural course any further.
Of course, this depends on whether or not if Sasaki cares that deeply about her own order that she will draw the sand over having her own tranquility compromised.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-07-14, 20:35
I submit one edit: Kyon discovered it hadn't worked, and he never tried because he didn't think it would go anywhere. He seems too... lazy to bother with bitterness about it for that long.
That's probably more in-character, yeah.
Thanks, by the way.
Takamura Mamoru
2009-07-14, 20:37
I'd immediately say "Kyon likes Haruhi" the moment I'd get any explicit clue on it.
When you begin with the story, Haruhi and Kyon seems more obvious than the fact that the sun is hot. But when I finished it, I honestly didn't know what to think about it anymore.
Sure, Kyon sometimes comments that she's very pretty and is obviously attracted to her body, but that goes for all the girls. Hell, he even admitted that he likes the crazy stuff Haruhi creates. Not to mention that "Haruhi always gets what she wants".
But beyond that? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. What am I supposed to think now, that he's in denial 100% of the time?
Yuki on the other hand, has his emotional focus quite a lot.
I don't know.
Didn't Sasaki say love is bullshit? Another reason that I can hate her for. It's not the same as when Haruhi calls it an illness, she rationalizes it to such a degree, saying it "stunts humanities growth" and stuff. She's ten times worse than House could ever be with her logic and rationality crap.
Another thing is how her "Closed Space" is basically unchanging. At least I think it was, I don't remember everything from the novels, which is odd since I always remember a lot about fictional stuff. Anyway, I think that's scarier than Haruhi's closed space. At least she has goddamn emotions.
Also, the Data Entity can't delete Yuki. Kyon sorta threatened them to back the fuck off. (CMOA)
TakariCritic
2009-07-14, 20:40
Also, the Data Entity can't delete Yuki. Kyon sorta threatened them to back the fuck off. (CMOA)
Sadly, they could, given that Haruhi's powers diminish to a point where it no longer threatens the IDTE... after all, Kyon's threat is based on provoking Haruhi's abilities.
Which raises the question of the character's status at the end of the story. All we know for sure is that Mikuru is DEFINITELY going back to the future. Outside of that, anything is possible.
panzerfan
2009-07-14, 20:41
It is exactly Sasaki's rational mind that I depend my entire conjecture on. Takamura Mamoru although made his point as a mean to address his rationale against Sasaki, I see that being the catalyst for Sasaki to force herself into the frey, because a rational mind will see the unstable nature to Tachibana and others pushing her as all too insulting, if not dangerous. Sasaki can easily rationalize that she will be used as a pawn to further a specific faction's agenda, which is to significantly alter the course of the universe...
It is hard to say where things will fall by the end of the story. We haven't seen any one save poor Asakura taking a bow and left the stage yet.
TakariCritic
2009-07-14, 20:44
It is exactly Sasaki's rational mind that I depend my entire conjecture on. Takamura Mamoru although made his point as a mean to address his rationale against Sasaki, I see that being the catalyst for Sasaki to force herself into the frey, because a rational mind will see the unstable nature to Tachibana and others pushing her as all too insulting.
You raise several valid points about Sasaki's potential intent on involvement, but I still feel she's more inclined to observe. Of course, with the seperate timelines occuring, we might both end up being right.
Takamura Mamoru
2009-07-14, 20:44
I can't really remember anything about Haruhi's powers diminishing..
When was that said? Is there any valid proof?
But even then, it's uncertain if Haruhi can affect the Data Entity with her powers, since it's unrelated to space and time. It wasn't affected by the time loop either, after all. Kyon basically bet on "Haruhi will figure something out".
Well, it does work, seeing how the Entity is scared.
TakariCritic
2009-07-14, 20:47
I can't really remember anything about Haruhi's powers diminishing..
When was that said? Is there any valid proof?
Well, consider the lack of Haruhi's active powers from December to spring. During that time, all the stories have revolved around factors other than Haruhi warping reality. Unfortunately, the only basis for this theory is Koizumi's word, which we should take with a grain of salt.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-07-14, 20:48
I can't really remember anything about Haruhi's powers diminishing..
When was that said? Is there any valid proof?
But even then, it's uncertain if Haruhi can affect the Data Entity with her powers, since it's unrelated to space and time. It wasn't affected by the time loop either, after all. Kyon basically bet on "Haruhi will figure something out".
Well, it does work, seeing how the Entity is scared.
Yuki using Haruhi's powers destroyed it for three days. It remembers that.
And Koizumi was the one who said her power is diminishing. Or, at the least, she's not creating anymore closed space and isn't dicking with the universe.
But that was Vol. 8. In Vol. 9... she's back to creating ridiculous amounts of closed space again.
THAAAAANKS SASAAAAKIII
Takamura Mamoru
2009-07-14, 20:51
Yeah, but the Shinjin aren't destroying stuff at all.
You may interpret that in any way you want.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-07-14, 20:54
Yeah, but the Shinjin aren't destroying stuff at all.
You may interpret that in any way you want.
Haruhi isn't frustrated, she's depressed? Isn't that EXACTLY what Koizumi says? :heh:
The solution is, as always, obvious. And, as always, Kyon will find a way to save the day without doing the obvious.
Dammit Kyon.
TakariCritic
2009-07-14, 20:55
Yeah, but the Shinjin aren't destroying stuff at all.
You may interpret that in any way you want.
I have a theory about this, but its not too thought out or backed up by canon events, but consider the following:
Sasaki met Kyon, then Haruhi and the others. The next week, she bumped into Kyon once more, this time with the Anti-SOS Brigade, commenting how they're acquaintances, and recently met.
Could it be possible that Sasaki's been bestowed the "old god" abilities after Haruhi met her? After all, Koizumi claimed to have done a full backround check on Kyon and his past connections. Don't you think he would have mentioned his old best friend being the center of his rival organization?
Kaisos Erranon
2009-07-14, 20:58
I have a theory about this, but its not too thought out or backed up by canon events, but consider the following:
Sasaki met Kyon, then Haruhi and the others. The next week, she bumped into Kyon once more, this time with the Anti-SOS Brigade, commenting how they're acquaintances, and recently met.
Could it be possible that Sasaki's been bestowed the "old god" abilities after Haruhi met her? After all, Koizumi claimed to have done a full backround check on Kyon and his past connections. Don't you think he would have mentioned his old best friend being the center of his rival organization?
See my above post, but... until recently, Koizumi's espers had no idea that the other espers were after another god at all.
TakariCritic
2009-07-14, 20:59
but... until recently, Koizumi's espers had no idea that the other espers were after another god at all.
Ah, but didn't Kyouko claim that her group had disagreements with Koizumi's group as to the source of their powers? Wouldn't that have been a clue?
And that is the 'Organization'?
"Yes, they are the ones who treat Suzumiya-san with godlike status. And
conflicts broke out between us, thinking that their opinion is wrong. In order
to correct them, we met them many times as well. And yet they said we are
in the wrong and refused to believe us no matter what. We are unable to
accept their views, much less for them to do the same. Finally we talked
about breaking off......"
panzerfan
2009-07-14, 21:00
I don't think Koizumi would've mentioned anything to Kyon since he only falls on a need-to-know basis on matter of that kind of importance.
As for getting the 'god' ability in making anything you sincerely believe in from the bottom of your heart to happen, it's anyone's guess.
I mean would what Sasaki sincerely wishes to happen be leaving the universe running 'its' course or letting the universe running 'her' course...
Tachibana is hoping that it'd be 'her' course, but Sasaki hasn't actively pushed her own course in the light of the 'universal' course, thus giving me some doubt as to what Sasaki, who loves run of the mill would rather see.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-07-14, 21:05
Tachibana is hoping that it'd be 'her' course, but Sasaki hasn't actively pushed her own course in the light of the 'universal' course, thus giving me some doubt as to what Sasaki, who loves run of the mill would rather see.
I posted it earlier, but... this (http://wiki.sos-dan.com/w/images/4/4e/Ce3_afterschool.jpg)?
:D
There are always more questions.
There is the question on if Haruhi is the god of the universe. If she died would anything happen? According to the aliens, espers, and time travelers she only started warping reality four years ago (by the time of book 9). Therefore either there was another "god" before her, or she's an anomaly in time-space. If one removes the anomaly, would anything bad happen? Would anything good happen? Moving her powers changes the anomaly, but does not remove it from existance. The changes are unpredicable, and to the aliens, time travelers, and espers, that is a bad thing. However we seem to be looking in the short term. What about the long term? Could Haruhi pass this power to her children? Will this power go away when she gets old and dies (her rational mind would have her age and die like a normal person, otherwise she'd still exist in Mikuru's time.)? We know the power can be moved or at least taken over by another and it is assumed that it can be taken over by Sasaki as well, though do we have proof that it will work?
Then we have the sliders...where are they from? Who are they? What do they want? Why did they come to Haruhi's universe at this time, or have they been there for four years and just not come out of the shadows until this crisis? Will they stay around after the story ends?
Will the aliens delete Yuki once there mission is complete? Maybe. Are they likely to get the answer they are looking for? No. Or if they do, the answer will be Yuki and thus they can't delete her. Are Haruhi's powers lessening? Probably not, she's just more stable now than before. There might come a time when she has no outbursts of data, but then what will the aliens observe? Will the Ryoko-like faction have to do something in order to gain the knowledge they need to evolve? Or is Yuki doing the evolving? Even with Haruhi being stable, can Kyon still use his fail safe if the aliens come to delete Yuki? Oh yes...the safe word is in effect. All he needs to do is prove he's "John Smith", then the universe will tremble at the power of Haruhi.
Will the Time travelers recall Mikuru(small)? Yes. Will Mikuru(BIG) take over the mission if needed? Maybe. We don't have enough information...because it is classified.
What will the espers do with a stable Haruhi? Relax. Will they continue to worship her from a distance. Probably. What about if she dies? They will worry like all getout that the universe will end, then maybe become normal once she passes...or maybe they won't but have to find a new mission.
And what of Kyon? Well what of him, he's Kyon.
All I can say about the separate time lines/alternate worlds??? is... OMG, are we finally getting a slider in the mix???
TakariCritic
2009-07-15, 02:24
Yes. It's implied that the freshman girl who called Kyon ("I just wanted to hear sempai's voice"), was described in physical detail by Kyon, and was miscounted by Kyon from the hallway into the classroom is the Slider.
I dare say... Kyon is building quite the harem...
panzerfan
2009-07-15, 02:33
Harem is too strong a word to describe it. Kyon's too much of an individual to make it a conventional scenario at any rate. If anything, it's more like the other characters, including Koizumi, are setting off their Kyon flag in their lives and not the other way around.
@I took a cheap jab at Koizumi there, but maybe this is warranted since no one can be truly certain of his intents.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-07-15, 02:39
Koizumi isn't gay. He wants Haruhi. There's enough hints strewn throughout the novels to make that obvious.
Harem is too strong a word to describe it. Kyon's too much of an individual to make it a conventional scenario at any rate. If anything, it's more like the other characters, including Koizumi, are setting off their Kyon flag in their lives and not the other way around.
Too true... he's gonna end up Haruhi's whipping boy for the rest of his life (of course he's gonna be secretly loving every second of it :P). I've read a couple of earlier post and I just don't see any other pairing that will work... hell, I'd love Nagato to be around at the end but I've got a feeling that she's gonna disappear in epic fashion (ala Saber in F/SN) when all's said and done...
Still, at the rate the light novels are going... who knows...
kniteowl
2009-07-15, 04:23
There are always more questions.
There is the question on if Haruhi is the god of the universe. If she died would anything happen? According to the aliens, espers, and time travelers she only started warping reality four years ago (by the time of book 9). Therefore either there was another "god" before her, or she's an anomaly in time-space. If one removes the anomaly, would anything bad happen? Would anything good happen? Moving her powers changes the anomaly, but does not remove it from existance. The changes are unpredicable, and to the aliens, time travelers, and espers, that is a bad thing. However we seem to be looking in the short term. What about the long term? Could Haruhi pass this power to her children? Will this power go away when she gets old and dies (her rational mind would have her age and die like a normal person, otherwise she'd still exist in Mikuru's time.)? We know the power can be moved or at least taken over by another and it is assumed that it can be taken over by Sasaki as well, though do we have proof that it will work?
Then we have the sliders...where are they from? Who are they? What do they want? Why did they come to Haruhi's universe at this time, or have they been there for four years and just not come out of the shadows until this crisis? Will they stay around after the story ends?
Will the aliens delete Yuki once there mission is complete? Maybe. Are they likely to get the answer they are looking for? No. Or if they do, the answer will be Yuki and thus they can't delete her. Are Haruhi's powers lessening? Probably not, she's just more stable now than before. There might come a time when she has no outbursts of data, but then what will the aliens observe? Will the Ryoko-like faction have to do something in order to gain the knowledge they need to evolve? Or is Yuki doing the evolving? Even with Haruhi being stable, can Kyon still use his fail safe if the aliens come to delete Yuki? Oh yes...the safe word is in effect. All he needs to do is prove he's "John Smith", then the universe will tremble at the power of Haruhi.
Will the Time travelers recall Mikuru(small)? Yes. Will Mikuru(BIG) take over the mission if needed? Maybe. We don't have enough information...because it is classified.
What will the espers do with a stable Haruhi? Relax. Will they continue to worship her from a distance. Probably. What about if she dies? They will worry like all getout that the universe will end, then maybe become normal once she passes...or maybe they won't but have to find a new mission.
And what of Kyon? Well what of him, he's Kyon.
All interesting questions, but you missed a couple.
My question is, Did the Universe exist more then 4 years ago?
If So, did the Aliens, Time Travellers, Espers & Sliders exist?
Going by Koizumi's logic that Haruhi created the Haruhiverse, they shouldn't exist.
I can see Espers not existing since they're directly linked to Haruhi but Aliens, Travellers & Slider could have exist Prior to 4 Years ago.
What about the HI-TECH THING found on Tsuruya's residence (the hill) in Volume 7?
Does it have any connection of any of the 4 factions (Aliens, Time Traverllers Epsers & Sliders)
Since it was left in the past, prior to 4 years ago I'm leanning heavily to the Aliens, maybe not Yuki's Faction... it could be any alien, since they appear to be more then capable of time travel.
Why not Time Travellers? Because of Haruhi stopped them, going by that logic, no matter when you are in time post Haruhi, you can't travel any further then 4 years in the past, present Haruhi novel time, but from Mikuru's explaination to Kyon, it sounded almost like there was a time the Time Travellers could travel further then 4 years in the past?... hmm I have to go back and read to confirm.
What are the goals of the 3 opposing factions from the AntiSOS?
We have learned something about their goals but I'm Skeptical.
I'd especially like to learn of the opposing Alien's factions goals... I hate them for hurting Nagato, but I don't think they're evil, they just have more problems communicating then Nagato's faction. It maybe a while before they bypass communication barrier where they can fully & properly communicate.
Does the Slider faction also have an opposing faction also?
Will there be a 5th faction, dealing with the paranormal eg- ghost? Haruhi seemsed interested in Volume 8.
My question is, Did the Universe exist more then 4 years ago?In Mysterque Sign, it's said that the cave cricket came to earth billions of years ago, so 'yes'.
Vallen Chaos Valiant
2009-07-15, 04:35
but from Mikuru's explaination to Kyon, it sounded almost like there was a time the Time Travellers could travel further then 4 years in the past?
You do realize that statement is paradoxical, right?:heh:
Because if there was a "time" when they could travel further into the past, then they just have to travel to that time as a pit-stop to go further back.
What you are looking for, isn't "time", but "world". There might well have once been a future world/universe where they could go further back in time, but that future universe no longer exists.
kniteowl
2009-07-15, 04:42
^a future universe that no longer exist?
Are we assuming that the future is linear and multiple futures don't exist?
Or should we assume that the future universe that no longer exist was changed similar to how Yuki changed the world in volume 4.
In Mysterque Sign, it's said that the cave cricket came to earth billions of years ago, so 'yes'.
Not realy. They could be created 4 years ago but thinks that existed for much more time. Like Itsuki said to Kyon, the world could be created 5 minutes ago and you just "born" with your past memories.
It is hard to say for sure (however, I would not be too quick to believe Koizumi).
Oh, yeah, having a "time" when the time-travelers could bo back prior 4 years ago do not make sense. Unless it is a problem on the future, not in the past (like some bug on the time machine)
panzerfan
2009-07-15, 04:46
Well, Nagato did claim that the cricket's billions of years old, so Kyon, and subsequently we, are more inclined to take her words for it than we would Koizumi.
Vallen Chaos Valiant
2009-07-15, 04:48
^a future universe that no longer exist?
Are we assuming that the future is linear and multiple futures don't exist?
Or should we assume that the future universe that no longer exist was changed similar to how Yuki changed the world in volume 4.
I am more thinking alone the lines of endless eight; that the future that can travel further back in time once existed in a 10 dimensional space-time, but the "data explosion", which didn't so much happen on the timeline as happen everywhere at once, severed that.
You see, I believe Haruhi's capacity to alter things outside Space Time, including committing Genocide on the Data Overmind if she so wish, means the "Data Explosion" didn't HAPPEN 3 years ago. It's just that 3 years ago is as far as anyone is capable to observing, because Haruhi has permanently blocked off access. Haruhi could have been using her god-like powers before 3 years ago... But no one would know because no one could check.
Well, Nagato did claim that the cricket's billions of years old, so Kyon, and subsequently we, are more inclined to take her words for it than we would Koizumi.
The Cricket is billion of years old in terms of DATA. Data includes memories, so as long as everyone concerned remember there being a time before 3 years ago, then as far as Yuki is concerned they exist before then.
In a way, it doesn't matter if there was a universe before three years ago. I mean, for the duration of Endless Eight there was no universe after the 1st day of August. Yet no one cared to ask if the older Future Mikuru who got recreated is "real" or not. The future was gone, then it came back. But it made no real difference.
Yuki's attitude to all this is what I follow: As long as the data is transmitted perfectly, it doesn't matter what technically happened, what matters is what you get in the end.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-07-15, 04:55
Holy...
How's this for an idea?
Before 3YA, Haruhi was perfectly aware that she was God. The 3YA event was a side effect of her sealing away her own memory of them, in order to stop being God. (It didn't work.)
CRACK as all hell, but I think it's an interesting idea.
(At that point, she also separated herself into two distinct individuals... nah, that's too CRACK.)
Holy...
How's this for an idea?
Before 3YA, Haruhi was perfectly aware that she was God. The 3YA event was a side effect of her sealing away her own memory of them, in order to stop being God. (It didn't work.)
CRACK as all hell, but I think it's an interesting idea.
(At that point, she also separated herself into two distinct individuals... nah, that's too CRACK.)
Heh, would could start posting you theorys on TVtropes, it would be funny :p.
Well, a have tought something like that some time ago. As a sollution to "how the Cretator could not remember creating am being part of it creation?"
But where is goes the baseball event? The one when she start to feel melancholic?
Kaisos Erranon
2009-07-15, 05:29
She made that up to explain her own remaining feelings.
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-07-15, 05:42
In Mysterque Sign, it's said that the cave cricket came to earth billions of years ago, so 'yes'.
Here's the thing. This was said by a character who had only been alive for three years at the time, something she admits to and Asakura confirms in Melancholy. Even if we are to assume this information came from her creators, we still have no way of knowing how accurate it is, as there is no way to prove how long they have existed.
To put it a different way, I am currently 24. Should I be considered a reliable source of information about events that occured centuries or even one year before I was born? I have no way of knowing this information beyond what I am told by others, who may not know themselves.
panzerfan
2009-07-15, 05:51
Unfortunately, how much trust would we put in Koizumi... in some sense, when we doubt the intrinsic value of all the information presented, it would then becomes incredibly difficult to decide what is true, given that Kyon himself is questionable as he has his own bias. Nagato does convey more weight to Kyon given her track records, so we have no choice but to conclude that Nagato's accounts hold more weight to Kyon, our source of information.
Kogetsu Shirogane's argument would make how that everyone "stand on the shoulder of giants" regarding human knowledge to be quite problematic given that most of us have no way of knowing much of historical information beyond what we were told, who may not know themselves... such as how we call out on the site of cremotoriums, let along how we go about to figure out sites of the fabled X'ia dynasty of China.
Vallen Chaos Valiant
2009-07-15, 05:57
Unfortunately, how much trust would we put in Koizumi... in some sense, when we doubt the intrinsic value of all the information presented, it would then becomes incredibly difficult to decide what is true, given that Kyon himself is questionable as he has his own bias. Nagato does convey more weight to Kyon given her track records, so we have no choice but to conclude that Nagato's accounts hold more weight to Kyon, our source of information.
The point here, is that since nobody could got back further than 3 years ago, there is just no proof one way or another. There is physical evidence that the world existed before 3 years ago, but it doesn't actually matter if it did exist or not because it made no difference.
Did it matter that the future was briefly annihilated during Endless Eight? No, because the future was restored, so there was no effect in the end. So why would the existence of the past matter, as long as the effect is the same?
That's what Yuki meant, when she claimed as long as data is transmitted accurately, actual time travel was irrelevant. Kyon wasn't sent back to the future by Yuki; he was frozen in time and unfrozen later. But since the effect is the same, then for all intent and purposes he did time travel.
Whether a past actually existed or not... does it really matter? For Yuki, it wouldn't. The data that suggested a past existed is there, thus it exists.
spawnofthejudge
2009-07-15, 07:11
Here's the thing. This was said by a character who had only been alive for three years at the time, something she admits to and Asakura confirms in Melancholy. Even if we are to assume this information came from her creators, we still have no way of knowing how accurate it is, as there is no way to prove how long they have existed.
To put it a different way, I am currently 24. Should I be considered a reliable source of information about events that occured centuries or even one year before I was born? I have no way of knowing this information beyond what I am told by others, who may not know themselves.There's also the old joke: If the universe was created this morning at 10:04:39 precisely, including with evidence that it existed beforehand (not to mention our memories say so too), would we ever know?
Takamura Mamoru
2009-07-15, 07:24
Or, in Koizumi's words:
"We cannot erase the possibility that the world was created 5 minutes ago."
Well, nobody know what happened 3 years ago. Maybe the world was created then. However, Mikuru does not believe that, according to Yuki.
I cannot imagine the Data Entity being 3 years old either, which would fit with Mikurus theory that Haruhi did not create this world and that it existed in this state long before her.
Maybe Haruhi just cut off the past, in a way like she cut off the future in Endless Eight. That's why nobody can travel past that point. Maybe it's a defense mechanism so someone cannot do something to her before she started using her powers.
panzerfan
2009-07-15, 08:19
I guess we are falling into a dangerous fallacy of continuous chain of speculation. It becomes to tempting to look into the validity and worth of everything starting from page 1 of Melancholy, but if we do that, then we'd be going in circles just on the nuances of whether or not if the actual age of the universe holds any meaning to the crew whatsoever.
About information, matter and energy... information itself may just "disappear" if the medium goes into a black hole and then gets "converted" and spews out, when that's not supposed to have happened given that you supposedly should, in theory, have the ability to reassemble the information from whatever form the medium becomes...
well, that might be scary. Lost information in this universe, in Hawking's mind goes into some baby or alternate universe (no relation), or that it's tied up in the cause and effect of things, which becomes a real issue since it would mean that nature doesn't really 'evolve' with time...
Vallen Chaos Valiant
2009-07-15, 08:20
Or, in Koizumi's words:
"We cannot erase the possibility that the world was created 5 minutes ago."
Well, nobody know what happened 3 years ago. Maybe the world was created then. However, Mikuru does not believe that, according to Yuki.
I cannot imagine the Data Entity being 3 years old either, which would fit with Mikurus theory that Haruhi did not create this world and that it existed in this state long before her.
Maybe Haruhi just cut off the past, in a way like she cut off the future in Endless Eight. That's why nobody can travel past that point. Maybe it's a defense mechanism so someone cannot do something to her before she started using her powers.
But if Haruhi has cut off the past, then doesn't it mean the world didn't exist before 3 years ago?
Because, let's face it, if you ask "when" in time was the Past cut off, it made no sense.
If Haruhi has annihilated the past the same way she annihilated the future in Endless Eight, then the fact that there was once a past before 3 years ago then no longer matters. It doesn't exist now, so it never existed, unless Haruhi puts it back.:heh:
Except that the world she created 'came' with a past.
No, I don't understand it either.
/EDIT reading up a bit, I appear to be looping arguements, as Panzerfan predicted.
Vallen Chaos Valiant
2009-07-15, 10:37
Except that the world she created 'came' with a past.
No, I don't understand it either.
/EDIT reading up a bit, I appear to be looping arguements, as Panzerfan predicted.
"Came", past-tense, assumed that there was a "time" when the Past existed.
But the past can't exist somewhere in time, it IS time. By Haruhi cutting out the Past, it would never have existed at all. The past either exists or doesn't; once the past vanished, by definition it has never been.
Once again, I bring up Endless Eight: Obviously for the majority of the show, Adult Mikuru's time in the future exists. But for a short while, it doesn't exist. It wasn't erased; it just doesn't exist at all. But then, it exists again. For when it exists, it has always existed. For when it was gone, it was never there.
"When" something happens, is meaningless when we are talking about altering time itself. This reminds me of a Discworld Novel, whereby mystical monks had to spend a long... "something", to repair a time-crash, in order to sew a damaged timeline back together. How much "time" it took for them to fix it, didn't make much sense as a question...
Takamura Mamoru
2009-07-15, 11:24
It's all speculation now, I just thought that maybe the past continues to go on, only seperate from Haruhi's world.
It basically split in two lines, only one line (the world now) starts at that point.
Also, I think it's a difference if Haruhi cut off the past or created a new universe. Because cutting off the past means that she did not create aliens, time travelers and such and they existed before her.
If she did create the world, they're all 3 years old and their memories should be considered artificial.
At least the Entity should be able to find out wether it's 3 years old or billions of years old... From the Entities point of view, it's been observing the Universe since.. Ever. Then, Haruhi happened.
Good lord, this is confusing.
Reckoner
2009-07-15, 11:37
Well of course the biggest issue is that Mikuru once stated that they were not able to time travel past 3 years ago.
The thing that I find funny is that Kyon rarely has talked (If at all) about memories that existed before 3 years ago. We learned about him and Sasaki, but that was within the 3 year gap between the explosion of information and his meeting of Haruhi.
It just leads me to believe that everyone's memories before the 3 year gap are perhaps fabricated by Haruhi and that the world truly began at that point. There is no proof to this, but it makes sense considering that they cannot time travel behind this date.
The thing about Endless Night is that it was a time recursion, you cannot travel foward in something that is just a loop. The bridge between the present and future was burned, but it is not like there is no future as a paradox would form with Mikuru's existence since she is from the future.
Bah, I hate time travel. Never makes sense.
The thing about Endless Night is that it was a time recursion, you cannot travel foward in something that is just a loop. The bridge between the present and future was burned, but it is not like there is no future as a paradox would form with Mikuru's existence since she is from the future.
Temporal paradoxes do not matter. They do not effect what does exist and what does not. The whole "paradox" issue seems to stem from people thinking that something needs a past in order to exist. A past is not necessary. Real World Example: The Universe only goes back around 13.7 billion years. It has no past beyond that (time itself does not go back beyond that). Therefore, there is no reason to believe that a character would stop existing just because their past got cut off.
So what if Mikuru didn't have a past for those two weeks? None of the other characters did either. Just like you can't go forward in a loop, you can't go backwards in a loop.
Take a length of string. Cut a smaller length from the middle of it and connect the two ends of that piece together. The segments you cut off from the inner segment represent the past and future, with the middle segment of course being the loop. The fact that the pieces are no longer connected does not stop them from existing.
Bah, I hate time travel. Never makes sense.
It makes perfect sense if you are willing to stop clinging to that pesky "causality" thing.
Temporal paradoxes do not matter. They do not effect what does exist and what does not. The whole "paradox" issue seems to stem from people thinking that something needs a past in order to exist. A past is not necessary. Real World Example: The Universe only goes back around 13.7 billion years. It has no past beyond that (time itself does not go back beyond that). Therefore, there is no reason to believe that a character would stop existing just because their past got cut off.
No, wait. How do you (or anyone) know that?
Anyway, I kinda agree with you.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-07-15, 14:09
It makes perfect sense if you are willing to stop clinging to that pesky "causality" thing.
Causality still matters for everyone except Haruhi.
Nothing anyone but Haruhi (or someone using her powers) does can affect or alter the past.
I really like the idea of the past no longer existing, though. Fits well with some of the series concepts.
And yeah, it's notable that Haruhi is the only person who talks about a time before 3YA.
As to Mikuru's explaination that the time travelers could not go back any farther in time. The way she puts it makes it sound like this happened three years ago in her time frame as well as in Kyon's time. Does this mean that Haruhi did something that effected something more than 5 dimensions at the same time? She caused some sort of break in space-tame that the aliens noticed, "created" the esper's powers, and blocked time travel. However Mikuru's way of saying it suggests that they use to travel farther back in time and that something happened to change it, rather than they ran into a brick wall in time while trying to go farther and farther back. It also suggests that it happened in real time for both Kyon's time and Mikuru's time. However if this break were across 5 dimensions, it would have hit everyone at the same "time" and thus always been in effect. Could Haruhi have caused something to happen that effected space-time in a way so that it only effected the time travelers from a specific time and after? And yet if they attempted to move back in time to use a machine/device that was of an older type to get around the block it would not work for them? Nor would they be able to send back someone from an earlier time to investigate even if those people could go back more than the Haruhi timequake?
Since there is now evidence of sliders getting involved, that would mean that Haruhi may effect things on an even greater dimensional level, up to 6 or 7 dimensions now if I remember correctly. However there seems to be a limit, if Endless Eight is a clue. Yuki's memory at least remains intact over each loop, so it must exist outside of at least the 4 dimensions, also she can sync to herself so it exists outside of the 5 dimensions. We don't know yet what (if anything) Haruhi has been able to do to the slider's universe, so we can't qualify if Yuki's memory exists beyond the 6th dimension.
No, wait. How do you (or anyone) know that?
Anyway, I kinda agree with you.
There are several ways I can see to take that question: "What evidence is there;" "Koizumi-style;" and "What about before?"
Evidence: Big Bang. The equations that work out in support of the universe as we know it being ~13.7 billion years old. The observed rate of movement of matter in the universe indicating it was all at the same place around 13.7 billion years ago.
Koizumi-style "everything was made five minutes ago, even contradicting evidence" argument: This argument cannot be proven either way, and is meaningless.
Before: Alright, there is a chance that our universe had a cause, and was created by an event in an older universe. That would put existence at older than 13.7 billion years, but doesn't defeat the essence of the argument. If there exist(s/ed) a universe that created ours, then the question becomes where that universe came from. Ask this question enough and you'll either come to a source that came out of nothing, of find that at some point the universes loop around. Either way, existence would be acausal.
What impact any of this has on the Haruhi-universe is questionable, as there is nothing forcing Tanigawa to use a sensible system of time-travel. The point, however, is that it is perfectly possible for something to exist without having a history to back it up, and thus paradoxes are not important.
Causality still matters for everyone except Haruhi.
Nothing anyone but Haruhi (or someone using her powers) does can affect or alter the past.
You seem to be confusing causality with a predetermined future. They are not the same. There are two acausal events that have occurred in the series so far, and only one of them directly involved Haruhi: The Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody incident and when Kyon and Mikuru learned of the shape of Mikuru's mole.
Both of the aforementioned events are completely acausal, but both of them were absolutely necessary for the future from which Mikuru came. Acausality and a predetermined future are compatible, its just that acausal events cannot be predicted before they occur.
TakariCritic
2009-07-15, 14:34
If you don't wish to hurt your brain thinking about it, may I attempt to summerize?
From what I understand, you're suggesting that Koizumi's powers were granted by Haruhi, but Aliens and Time Travelers existed without her enabling them. All Haruhi did was cut off timetravel to any era before her powers.
Why would she do that? Why else but to get Time Travelers to come to her? What else would they do except attempt to discover why they can't move further back from that point?
And all Haruhi had to do was EXIST in order to attract alien attention.
Did I get that right?
Kaisos Erranon
2009-07-15, 14:43
Both of the aforementioned events are completely acausal, but both of them were absolutely necessary for the future from which Mikuru came. Acausality and a predetermined future are compatible, its just that acausal events cannot be predicted before they occur.
Ah, right, sorry.
There are several ways I can see to take that question: "What evidence is there;" "Koizumi-style;" and "What about before?"
Evidence: Big Bang. The equations that work out in support of the universe as we know it being ~13.7 billion years old. The observed rate of movement of matter in the universe indicating it was all at the same place around 13.7 billion years ago.
And what have happened to the eternal looping theory? That the universe is exploding, expanding, contracting and them exploding/expanding/contrcting over and over again? It could be the first time (so, no past past then) but it could not. Besides, who said the the Big Bang (if it exist) is the begining of everything?
Koizumi-style "everything was made five minutes ago, even contradicting evidence" argument: This argument cannot be proven either way, and is meaningless.
No, it is not. It can't be provem, right. But it is enogh to be a possibility. So any other option is also a possibility, but never a certain (nothing is a certain, BTW).
Before: Alright, there is a chance that our universe had a cause, and was created by an event in an older universe. That would put existence at older than 13.7 billion years, but doesn't defeat the essence of the argument. If there exist(s/ed) a universe that created ours, then the question becomes where that universe came from. Ask this question enough and you'll either come to a source that came out of nothing, of find that at some point the universes loop around. Either way, existence would be acausal.
Yeah, I agree.
What impact any of this has on the Haruhi-universe is questionable, as there is nothing forcing Tanigawa to use a sensible system of time-travel. The point, however, is that it is perfectly possible for something to exist without having a history to back it up, and thus paradoxes are not important.
Ah, so it is this what Yuki means on Bamboo's Leaf? Maybe it is not, but it fits well. Anyway, I aways thinks that "history backing up" kinda sily.
Ah, right, sorry.
No problem. I spend a lot of time thinking about time travel and enjoy sharing my thoughts on the subject. Your post allowed me to clear things up for others who might have taken issue with what I said but not posted for some reason.
And what have happened to the eternal looping theory? That the universe is exploding, expanding, contracting and them exploding/expanding/contrcting over and over again? It could be the first time (so, no past past then) but it could not. Besides, who said the the Big Bang (if it exist) is the begining of everything?
1. Current evidence suggests that the expansion of the universe is accelerating due to dark energy, which would result in a Big Rip rather than a Big Crunch.
2. The cycling of universes you describe is close enough to the third possibility that it falls into the same category, with the same solution.
No, it is not. It can't be provem, right. But it is enogh to be a possibility. So any other option is also a possibility, but never a certain (nothing is a certain, BTW).
Let me try to rephrase myself. The "everything was created 5 minutes ago, even the contradictory evidence" theory is not testable to a sufficient extent that results contradicting it could not be handwaved away. This means that no actionable knowledge can be drawn from considering the possibility. Thus, entertaining it is a waste of time and energy.
If you can think of an example of actionable knowledge that could be drawn from considering it, I'd be interested to hear it. Due to my own conclusions about this possibility I haven't spent as much time considering it as I have the others.
Ah, so it is this what Yuki means on Bamboo's Leaf? Maybe it is not, but it fits well. Anyway, I aways thinks that "history backing up" kinda sily.
I dunno. It's been a while since I read BLR and I didn't watch the subs for it, either.
1. Current evidence suggests that the expansion of the universe is accelerating due to dark energy, which would result in a Big Rip rather than a Big Crunch.
2. The cycling of universes you describe is close enough to the third possibility that it falls into the same category, with the same solution.
1. Realy? Well, whatever :p It doesn't help in the discussion (thanks for the info)
2.I know. I have some difficultys reading long complex english texts. So I was reading and replying one "block" by time. Sorry.
Let me try to rephrase myself. The "everything was created 5 minutes ago, even the contradictory evidence" theory is not testable to a sufficient extent that results contradicting it could not be handwaved away. This means that no actionable knowledge can be drawn from considering the possibility. Thus, entertaining it is a waste of time and energy.
I I didn't understand the undelined text. Blame my poor english skils :heh: .
Anyway you meant that since it can not be proven, it is pointless debate about it right? I agree. Just pointing that it is not (totally) meaningless.
I dunno. It's been a while since I read BLR and I didn't watch the subs for it, either.
The subs diverge a lot... Baka-tsuki says:
"As there is no conclusion to the paradox theory, there is no way to prove that there is no paradox."
As an "explanation" to the events of that Tanabata. I was amused that your words fit pretty well here.
Well, I guess we are just agreeing by now.
By the way, I didn't really think about it before, but I guess Mikuru's mole is a closed time loop; she only knew about it because Kyon pointed it out, and Kyon only knew about it because future Mikuru pointed it out. So where did the original information come from?
Ah, Time Travel
panzerfan
2009-07-15, 20:21
Finally, someone willing to talk about the nature of information, energy and matter.
Alright. This whole problem of time travel is causing the discussion to go in the direction of causality and nature of information. Unfortunately, this has its firm feet in physics, and that is going give Reckoner loathing over the post-Einstein/Bohr world'o physics.
So, what is information?
To paraphrase wikipedia, Physical information is about information that is contained within a given system, which the part of the physical universe that we wish to look into.
Information is loosely defined as what we can use to tell one thing apart from another. It is what we can pick out specifically, and a complete description of this 'thing', not always using words even. We can call that the sum of information is basically the ideal form of the 'thing' in question.
In Haruhi context, the sum of all information regarding data entity will be the perfect form a given data entity. One does not use any given language for a description.
In physics, the complete sum of all that information within a given system is what we called 'true state' of that system. The true state of a data entity would be the complete sum of all the information pertaining to 'it'. This true state, for all intent and purpose, would have to exist somehow, whether if it is tangible or if you can 'understand' it or not.
So, the original information about Mikuru's mole has nothing to do with the casualty of recognizing it, since physical information does not depend on anyone realizing its existence nor in what it's all about.
In the substomic quantum world, there exists a 'ton' more information than what we see in the macroscopic world. In the classical world, only a fine selection of that 'information' which exists at quantum level becomes evident to us, and those are observable, objective reality of 'things'.
Think of the quantum information as subjective possibilities and the macroscopic world information as objective reality. The subjective nature comes, according to Uncertainty principle, by that the more you know of all the possible choices, the less you know what you will actually get at any given point in time.
In Haruhi example, the more choice in clothing items you know exists for swimwear, the less certain you can be about which one of these choices will pop up during a given iteration of the endless Eight iteration. A Reality would be that in iteration 15,498, Haruhi is wearing a red tankini for her swimsuit, but then there would be no choice anymore in that given iteration 15,498... as what happened is set in stone.
The total amount of information that can possibly exist is actually countable. This is measured in heat unit of joules per kelvin typically... Just note that you can use some formula to count information in some kind of heat energy unit, as you have more than 1 formula, depending on what you're after.
Wikipedia kindly provided that for a system S, defined abstractly in such a way that it has N distinguishable states (orthogonal quantum states) that are consistent with its description, the amount of information I(S) contained in the system's state can be said to be log(N).
So, for any given Endless Eight cycle, there exists 6 different variations of parttime work, and so the I(E8') would equal to log (6) of energy as information regarding all parttime work variation.
And... if A has N distinguishable states (I(A) = log(N) information content) and an independent subsystem B has M distinguishable states (I(B) = log(M) information content), then the concatenated system has NM distinguishable states and an information content I(AB) = log(NM) = log(N) + log(M) = I(A) + I(B).
2 pages of book contain 2x the information as does 1 page, and in 15,513 loops, there exists 15,513Log(6) joule per kelvin of energy worth in information. Fun isn't it?
Recall that all of this is measured in some thermal unit? Well guess what... Entropy just the gibberish amount of energy that we know it's information, but we can't make sense of it. We know how much of it there is, we even know where they are, but it makes no sense. The classical entropy is defined as "a thermodynamic quantity representing the amount of energy in a system that is no longer available for doing mechanical work", which is heat energy that doesn't go into moving things at all... some do argue that information entropy really isn't all like that, but just note that information is a form of heat energy.
Entropy of information would be like you being handed the moonrune version of Haruhi. You know how many characters and how many pages there are, but you can't make sense of it.
Ok, so what's the issue with this? Well for one, it becomes alarming that information, physical information, isn't tied down with... time.
The issue lies with the solution to black hole information paradox, the conservation of energy and mass in our universe (and information)... and eventually, the matter of casualty in nature. (I am going to build from here)
Kaisos Erranon
2009-07-15, 20:26
So where did the original information come from?
Physics.
It'd be way easier to make jokes like this if I didn't need at least ten characters.
CrowKenobi
2009-07-15, 22:55
I think that we're getting waaaaayyyy into ontology territory here...
I I didn't understand the undelined text. Blame my poor english skils :heh: .
Anyway you meant that since it can not be proven, it is pointless debate about it right? I agree. Just pointing that it is not (totally) meaningless.
Ah, sorry, I forgot that English isn't your native language. The meaning of the underlined part was that no evidence against that theory would ever be good enough to satisfy a supporter of the theory.
Well, I guess we are just agreeing by now.
That appears to be the case.
I think that we're getting waaaaayyyy into ontology territory here...
Yeah. It might be better for us to take this discussion there.
@panzerfan: I'm going to look at that post of yours again after I get some sleep. Not ignoring it.
quigonkenny
2009-07-16, 01:13
-snip-
Good Lord, man... Give my inner English teacher a break here... Read this. (http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/affect.html) ^_^
I think that we're getting waaaaayyyy into ontology territory here...
Every time time travel even remotely comes up, this happens... Every time Slider-tan is mentioned, this happens... Every time Sasaki is brought up, it turns into a "nature of Haruhi's powers" discussion, which invariably degenerates via mention of 3ya to a time travel discussion, or via mention of the Yukiverse to a AU discussion, and this happens...
The Ontology thread is the Borg of this forum. All topics will be assimilated. It will add their distinctiveness to its own. Resistance is futile... ^_^
kniteowl
2009-07-16, 01:40
Since there is now evidence of sliders getting involved, that would mean that Haruhi may effect things on an even greater dimensional level, up to 6 or 7 dimensions now if I remember correctly. However there seems to be a limit, if Endless Eight is a clue. Yuki's memory at least remains intact over each loop, so it must exist outside of at least the 4 dimensions, also she can sync to herself so it exists outside of the 5 dimensions. We don't know yet what (if anything) Haruhi has been able to do to the slider's universe, so we can't qualify if Yuki's memory exists beyond the 6th dimension.
kool so the possibility that Yuki can Sync with alternate dimensions of herself is possible?
Well she did ban herself from Sync-ing with past & future versions of herself but not alternate dimensions of herself... maybe it'll happen when Slider Kyon visit Yuki lol... can't wait lol.
panzerfan
2009-07-16, 02:42
My short answer is that, given physical information is not governed by time, the transmission of information doesn't have to flow with the arrow of time.
In quantum mechanics, some incredible happens that makes one even question why it seems that faster than light transmission of information can occur. We have to go into ontology as we explore how all of this is connected unfortunately.
kniteowl
2009-07-16, 07:21
Remember SOS-Dan's wishes during BLR (Tanabata)?
Did their wishes come true?
I dunno how far Haruhi's powers reach but in term of time passed from Yuki's Point of view, 594 years have passed so that's more then enough time for Haruhi's theory that your wish should come true within 16 or 25 years lol.
TakariCritic
2009-07-16, 08:24
Yes, they came true. During interations 416 and 650. However, none of the SOS Brigade will remember them, except Yuki. In fact, even during those interations, Mikuru failed to notice how much better her cooking and sewing were.
Interation 650 was interesting, since Kyon actually got a house with a yard. This, of course, was then turned into the host for the SOS Brigade's Dog Wash fundraiser.
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-07-16, 08:26
I dunno how far Haruhi's powers reach but in term of time passed from Yuki's Point of view, 594 years have passed so that's more then enough time for Haruhi's theory that your wish should come true within 16 or 25 years lol.
Eh... not exactly. The time between the beginning of August 1st and the beginning of September 1st is still 31 days. The last two weeks just repeated thousands of times.
*e* Or what Takari said. I like that one better. :heh:
Yes, they came true. During interations 416 and 650. However, none of the SOS Brigade will remember them, except Yuki. In fact, even during those interations, Mikuru failed to notice how much better her cooking and sewing were.
Interation 650 was interesting, since Kyon actually got a house with a yard. This, of course, was then turned into the host for the SOS Brigade's Dog Wash fundraiser.
Wow. Is this in the novel?
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-07-16, 08:57
... If you haven't read the novels, why are you here? :heh:
But to answer your question, no. That was just a bit of humor on Takari's part.
... If you haven't read the novels, why are you here? :heh:
But to answer your question, no. That was just a bit of humor on Takari's part.
I'm here because I lurk.
And I fail.
And I'm stoned.
All the time.
kniteowl
2009-07-16, 09:58
Eh... not exactly. The time between the beginning of August 1st and the beginning of September 1st is still 31 days. The last two weeks just repeated thousands of times.
*e* Or what Takari said. I like that one better. :heh:
lol well it's some filler material they could animate during Kyon'and co's Deja vu during E8 lol.
kniteowl
2009-07-20, 01:46
An interesting theory I found from The TVTropes Suzumiya Haruhi WMG. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/WMG/SuzumiyaHaruhi)
The Alpha/Beta parts of Volume 9 are the result of Kuyou Save Scumming
The key bits of evidence that supports this theory both come from Snow Mountain Syndrome. First, Kuyou (and/or the Sky Canopy Domain), as it has been revealed, is responsible for the whole shabang. Second, in both situations, Nagato becomes weakened and Kyon considers momentarily to use his trump card should it come down to it.
That said, recall, if you will, Koizumi's hypothesis in Snow Mountain Syndrome that the SOS Brigade members in the mansion are duplicates of the real SOS Brigade, akin to a save file on a game, and that the perpetrator of the scenario was likely to have been intending to provoke Haruhi. Therefore, Kukyou and/or the Canopy Domain (hitherto only referred as "Kuyou" alone) is attempting this tactic again, this time in the real world so the SOS Brigade would be convinced that this "save" is the reality, as opposed to the "Controllable Helplessness" of the mansion, dismissing the possiblity of "escape". The "save point" is right when Kyon picks up the phone (since that's where the split occurs). The α save is the default reality, while the ß save is the alternate created by Kuyou, and it's no holds barred: disabling Nagato, the Anti-SOS meeting Kyon, etc. When Kuyou grabbed Kimidori's arm, she was disconnecting Kimidori from the Data Integrated Thought Entity and weakening her like she did with Nagato (it would be counterintuitive to have an active IDTE Interface in the ß save). Additionally, girl that catches Kyon's interest in the α save is the Slider, in the dimensional and spatial sense; in other words, not only can she slide between dimensions, but she can slide through space (hence how she entered the Clubroom; she's the mysterious twelfth first-year); she'll join as the Sixth Ranger.
What'll happen in the tenth novel with this in mind is still up in the air, but odds are that the Slider will use her powers to connect a link between the α and β saves to stop Kuyou, though from what the Slider tells Kyon on the phone, she is a duplicate created by the IDTE (or perhaps herself) that was sent back in time after the fact, because otherwise she'd end up dead in creating the α/β link.
TakariCritic
2009-07-20, 10:57
Huh... TVTropes...
http://www.comixed.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/indy-tv-trope.jpeg
That being said, I actually saw that a couple days ago myself. To me, it actually makes a freaky kind of sense that Kuyoh severed Kimidori's link. Although I'm more inclined to beleive the Slider is responsible for the seperate timelines, not Kuyoh.
fish eric
2009-07-29, 18:40
Also remember that when Kyon was talking to Yuki about the Kuyoh and asked her what will happen she said "The next step is physical contact" So whatever is happening with Yuki's sickness and so forth was already planned for by her. That is why I think nothing bad is going to happen to Yuki.
Also a/b being similar to Snow Mountain Syndrome makes the most sense, but its too easy. I think it isn't like the Haruhi series to reuse something like that.
Unfortunately we don't have enough evidence to say anything furthur.
Does anyone have any theories about the conversation between Yuki and Koizumi during the movie? The part where they talk about Kyon being the Key and Koizumi asking Yuki to be honest with him and Yuki saying she doesn't have enough data. That seems really interesting to me but I havn't been able to quite grasp it.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-07-29, 18:42
Does anyone have any theories about the conversation between Yuki and Koizumi during the movie? The part where they talk about Kyon being the Key and Koizumi asking Yuki to be honest with him and Yuki saying she doesn't have enough data. That seems really interesting to me but I havn't been able to quite grasp it.
Kyon is the one person who can control Haruhi Suzumiya. This alone gives him no real power, but at the same time makes him the most powerful human on earth.
He's the "key to everything".
fish eric
2009-07-30, 18:27
Kyon is the one person who can control Haruhi Suzumiya. This alone gives him no real power, but at the same time makes him the most powerful human on earth.
He's the "key to everything".
Hmm.. maybe I was reading too much into it.
kniteowl
2009-07-31, 00:47
I was wondering... during Disappearance, the 2nd time Kyon time travels back in time to meet Adult Mikuru to found out who & why his world change on December 18th.
Did Kyon travel back 3 years or 597 years (598 year in the anime) in time?
I know it's a bit of a silly question but if you include E8... then wouldn't it be consider time travelling 597 years back... it's impossible to travel back to the E8 time period or is it?
It might be possible to travel to the last iteration fo E8, but it's impossible to travel to all the former iterations.
I was wondering... during Disappearance, the 2nd time Kyon time travels back in time to meet Adult Mikuru to found out who & why his world change on December 18th.
Did Kyon travel back 3 years or 597 years (598 year in the anime) in time?
I know it's a bit of a silly question but if you include E8... then wouldn't it be consider time travelling 597 years back... it's impossible to travel back to the E8 time period or is it?
It might be possible to travel to the last iteration fo E8, but it's impossible to travel to all the former iterations.
Yeah, I believe the other iterations of E8 "haven't happened", dispite Yuki remembering then. Each one was replaced by the following and, thus, don't exist anymore on the time.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-07-31, 03:53
Each one was replaced by the following and, thus, don't exist anymore on the time.
A similar event occurs with Kyon remembering what never happened during Disappearance.
A similar event occurs with Kyon remembering what never happened during Disappearance.
I am not so sure about that one.
I am not so sure about that one.
Indeed. They were able to travel to the time that Kaisos said "never happened" from the future, so it seems that it still exists. I'd say that in Disappearance's case, it was actually that everybody except Kyon and Yuki remembered something that didn't happen.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-07-31, 14:53
Indeed. They were able to travel to the time that Kaisos said "never happened" from the future, so it seems that it still exists. I'd say that in Disappearance's case, it was actually that everybody except Kyon and Yuki remembered something that didn't happen.
Wait, what?
They traveled to what is now their own past.
Originally, Yuki reset the universe and no one was there to stop her. Because this would remove the future from existence, Kyon has to go back and fix the timeline by stopping Yuki from creating the changes she did.
In the end, Yuki DID reset the universe... for about 10 minutes, not three days.
The universe no longer remembers what happened during those days in Disappearance. Only Kyon does.
Your theory, which I remember, suggests that Alt. Yuki is just acting the entire way through Disappearance... which makes reading the entire thing a huge waste of time in retrospect, I think.
Also, the book pretty much says Kyon is responsible for the 'death' of the Disappearance crew, so...
Edit: Okay, I'm an asshole. I did not mean to be confrontational there, sorry. Offensive language edited.
Wait, what?
They traveled to what is now their own past.
Originally, Yuki reset the universe and no one was there to stop her. Because this would remove the future from existence, Kyon has to go back and fix the timeline by stopping Yuki from creating the changes she did.
In the end, Yuki DID reset the universe... for about 10 minutes, not three days.
The universe no longer remembers what happened during those days in Disappearance. Only Kyon does.
Your theory, which I remember, suggests that Alt. Yuki is just acting the entire way through Disappearance... which makes reading the entire thing a huge fucking waste of time in retrospect.
Also, the book pretty much says Kyon is responsible for the 'death' of the Disappearance crew, so...
My interpretation was what didn't happened was everyone memories. For three days the world was like Kyon's seen, but after this reverse back to normal.
Also, I don't believe Yuki was faking. This wasn't the whole point of the lack of synchronization? Past Yuki didn't know how it would end so she wait and see.
But, of coures, I have to reread the novel to be sure. (I was wainting to watch it, but aparently, it will be not anytime soon)
There are slight problems, but that can be handled by having Yuki/Haruhi reset everything back the moment Kyon leaves for the past. The logic problem becomes "what happens to Kyon during his second run through those three days?" Likely he spends them in that altered time healing from his wound. Yuki/Haruhi come up with a cover story when they reformate the universe back to its default mode and he wakes up with Haruhi sleeping nearby....her hair short again.
Yuki's reset after ten minutes might have been an added delay or command function in its data. This could be the source of the escape program. Give Kyon the choice to reset the data in the end. When he does, he goes to fulfill the loop and the universe's changes are deleted at that point.
He still "kills" those alternates, just he does so at the end by pressing "escape". Meaning those three days still exist in the normal timeline. If that timeline had been erased, would Mikuru have been able to travel to or from it? Or did they travel to that timeline at all?
Too bad you will never get anything on this subject matter in red. :)
Kaisos Erranon
2009-07-31, 20:07
Or did they travel to that timeline at all?
The novel suggests that they didn't, as I recall.
kniteowl
2009-08-01, 00:09
So let me get this straight?
If Kyon were to travel back in time to the time of Disappearance, December 18-20, he wouldn't end up in the Disappearance universe, but end up a universe where he fell into a coma for 3 days?
The logic problem becomes "what happens to Kyon during his second run through those three days?" Likely he spends them in that altered time healing from his wound.
He had a time traveler with him. He had a data interface capable of rewriting reality on an impressive scale even without the Haruhi-powers with him. It's much simpler if Yuki healed him and Mikuru(big) took Kyon to around the time when he woke up.
So let me get this straight?
If Kyon were to travel back in time to the time of Disappearance, December 18-20, he wouldn't end up in the Disappearance universe, but end up a universe where he fell into a coma for 3 days?
That's what Kaisos thinks. I think that the three altered days still exist and that if he traveled back in time to that period, he'd end up in the other universe. Fewer issues of causality that way. We have no confirmation either way, though.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-08-01, 03:56
That's what Kaisos thinks. I think that the three altered days still exist and that if he traveled back in time to that period, he'd end up in the other universe. Fewer issues of causality that way. We have no confirmation either way, though.
And I think that this interpretation means that reading the book is a waste of time. =P
Should mention that Haruhi's powers should break causality though. In fact, one old theory I heard was that she is anti-causality incarnate.
Triple_R
2009-08-02, 01:53
Kyon is the one person who can control Haruhi Suzumiya. This alone gives him no real power, but at the same time makes him the most powerful human on earth.
He's the "key to everything".
This is probably the answer that the book writer is aiming for. In other words, this will be the canon explanation, I think.
However... it doesn't jive for me in the sense that I don't recall seeing or reading Kyon influence Haruhi to any significant degree whatsoever... aside from that one time that he kissed her in "the dream".
Kyon exerts more influence over Haruhi than most people do - maybe even more than anybody else does - but that's kind of like saying that a glass of water is more influential against a forest fire than a droplet of water is. :heh:
Basically, I get what the book writer is going for, but I really hope that we see more and greater examples of Kyon influencing Haruhi if he decides to keep with this theme for all of the novels.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-08-02, 02:18
Basically, I get what the book writer is going for, but I really hope that we see more and greater examples of Kyon influencing Haruhi if he decides to keep with this theme for all of the novels.
Kyon's opinion is really the only one that matters to her. Also she's in love with him.
He's just too lazy to realize it.
Triple_R
2009-08-02, 02:26
Kyon's opinion is really the only one that matters to her. Also she's in love with him.
He's just too lazy to realize it.
Well, I know it's the canon pairing and all, but I personally don't feel much of a romance vibe coming off of Haruhi and towards Kyon... so I certainly can't fault Kyon himself for not feeling such a vibe. Haruhi is attached to Kyon, certainly, but... going by the tsundere system... there's not much deredere 'dere. :heh:
Part of the reason why I suggested ending Endless Eight by Kyon saying "I love you" to Haruhi (as Koizumi suggests) is that it would make the canon pairing actually feel like a canon pairing.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-08-02, 02:28
Well, I know it's the canon pairing and all, but I personally don't feel much of a romance vibe coming off of Haruhi and towards Kyon... so I certainly can't fault Kyon himself for not feeling such a vibe. Haruhi is attached to Kyon, certainly, but... going by the tsundere system... there's not much deredere 'dere. :heh:
You really need to read the books man, seriously. =P
Haruhi does have deredere moments... also remember the end of Live Alive...?
In any case, it gets to the point that, by Vol. 9, you get the feeling that Kyon is refusing to address Haruhi's rather obvious feelings for him.
CrowKenobi
2009-08-02, 09:03
Don't forget "Someday In The Rain." :D
Triple_R
2009-08-02, 09:06
You really need to read the books man, seriously. =P
Haruhi does have deredere moments... also remember the end of Live Alive...?
In any case, it gets to the point that, by Vol. 9, you get the feeling that Kyon is refusing to address Haruhi's rather obvious feelings for him.
I tried reading the books, but I was amazed by how identical it was to the anime. It was so identical that it lost my interest, Endless Eight style. :heh:
Still, I'll try to pick it up again, given your repeated recommendations. It's quite possible that the books show some good Haruhi deredere moments that the anime hasn't gotten to yet.
I will say that the anime alone actually gives me the impression that Kyon is interested in Haruhi... he's just too gutless to actually come out and say it (outside of a dream, any way).
Someday in the Rain definitely contains one of the better potential Haruhi/Kyon romance moments - specifically when she's putting the jacket over him as though tucking him in to bed; then he unexpectedly wakes up and Haruhi has this look of extreme dread on her face as though Kyon wasn't supposed to know what she was doing. Yeah, that can definitely be taken as a deredere moment.
The only other ones (that I can remember) were the kiss, and Haruhi and Kyon's fight against the elements during their trip to the Island Villa.
I may have to re-watch Live Alive to see if I'm missing something.
TakariCritic
2009-08-02, 09:35
I think that the three altered days still exist and that if he traveled back in time to that period, he'd end up in the other universe. Fewer issues of causality that way. We have no confirmation either way, though.
I respectfully disagree. As soon as the Nagatos restores the world, we actually catch a glimpse of the start of the three days of the restored world, with Haruhi jumping in the ambulance with an unconscious Kyon and Koizumi talking on his cell. (Intrigues prologue). This insinuates that the world was in fact only remade for that short period of time, and the timeline which Kyon experienced from Dec 18th to the 20th no longer exists.
Zantetsuken
2009-08-02, 09:42
Kyon isn't gutless, he actively try to reject the idea that Haruhi likes him, and he may likes her back.
In vol 9 of the novel Itsuki spends several pages trying to explain Haruhi is jealous because Kyon met an old friend. But Kyon just won't understand. And we know Kyon is not stupid, book dumb maybe, but stupid? No way.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-08-02, 14:59
I tried reading the books, but I was amazed by how identical it was to the anime. It was so identical that it lost my interest, Endless Eight style. :heh:
Anime still hasn't done Vol. 2, Vol. 4, Snow Mountain Syndrome, three of the stories in Vol. 6, and onward, and it's rendition of Lone Island Syndrome is completely different.
Skip everything the anime has done, is my advice.
I respectfully disagree. As soon as the Nagatos restores the world, we actually catch a glimpse of the start of the three days of the restored world, with Haruhi jumping in the ambulance with an unconscious Kyon and Koizumi talking on his cell. (Intrigues prologue). This insinuates that the world was in fact only remade for that short period of time, and the timeline which Kyon experienced from Dec 18th to the 20th no longer exists.
This too. :D
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