Claymore Chapter 93

[Creangeru]

I disagree. Deneve is the biggest problem Child and is Followed by Helen. Helen had to be the voice of Reason for Deneve already on several occasions. That's bad.

Clare on the other hand seems to be reckless, but there is a purpose to her madness. Whenever Clare does something that seems Reckless, it is for a good cause, to save people. I'm curisous, because there might be, but is there any example in the manga where Clare's "Recklessness" is unjustified?

Could you explain which occasions came to your mind? I'm only recalling the one in Pieta, when Deneve talks to Undine in the back chamber about her former self.

About your second point I don't know. She is always doing it for the greater good.

[Slick_rick]

I'd have to agree with the premise that Renee might be dead already. Riful statement the she had already been robbed of any chance of survival doesn't make sense if Renee had escaped. It makes more sense that Riful was talking/taunting to the dead corpse of Renee. I'm not a 100 percent sure she is but I believe there is a good chance cause I don't see Riful upset at all about her escaping which I would expect also.

[hell88]

The new awakened one is in the form of the twin goddesses, I wonder if that statue was meant to portray something evil?

[Shiek927]

Could you explain which occasions came to your mind? I'm only recalling the one in Pieta, when Deneve talks to Undine in the back chamber about her former self.

About your second point I don't know. She is always doing it for the greater good.

How about Deneve baiting and riling Helen up to help Dietrich?

Or not going with Helen to see Isley?

Both of them are reckless and crazy, the other difference is that Helen is more outward about it, but Deneve has a stoic mask.

[Creangeru]

The new awakened one is in the form of the twin goddesses, I wonder if that statue was meant to portray something evil?

I think so. After all we were taught AB are evil and AO are even more sinister than them. Plus the black color easily leads you to believe it will be something evil.

[hell88]

Something I forgot to add.

Raki is going to probably run into Clare while she has nothing but that cloak on, I can see it all playing out right now.:heh:

[Shiek927]

The new awakened one is in the form of the twin goddesses, I wonder if that statue was meant to portray something evil?

Well, maybe, maybe not. It's really just a black twist:

Teresa and Claire are goddesses, pure and all that stuff. Luciella became a AO and Rafaela wasn't exactly a samaritan either.

Nevertheless, the mind of this being is something born for the first time. We have to wait to see if it's really malevolent.

[haegar]

'cept for the fact that it seems strange that "raphaella's last will" is something evil, and it also seems strange that clare ain't panicking ^^

[Shiek927]

'cept for the fact that it seems strange that "raphaella's last will" is something evil, and it also seems strange that clare ain't panicking ^^

Her "last will"? what are you talking about?

[Creangeru]

How about Deneve baiting and riling Helen up to help Dietrich?

Or not going with Helen to see Isley?

Both of them are reckless and crazy, the other difference is that Helen is more outward about it, but Deneve has a stoic mask.

Your second point about Isley doesn't make any sense to me in this matter. As Helen is already rushing towards Isley. How does this make Deneve more problematic than Helen?

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Could you explain which occasions came to your mind? I'm only recalling the one in Pieta, when Deneve talks to Undine in the back chamber about her former self.

About your second point I don't know. She is always doing it for the greater good.

Helen wanted to sneak into a town out of curiosity, to see what an Abyssal One looked like. Helen on the other hand, started to talk about Isley like she wanted to fight him. At which point, Helen had to reason with her, saying that she didn't want to fight. I think there may be another occasion, but I can't think of it right now. But Deneve is also the only character who half awakened by testing her limit, seeing how close she could get to that forbidden line. And though it was a self preservation act, she half awakened twice to heal herself, which can be quite dangerous for her comrades.

About the second point, is it really being reckless when you are the type of person who is willing to sacrifice your life to save an other? Clare is even willing to put her quest for revenge on hold, to save someone.

[haegar]

I'm talking about THIS:
Some corrections:
When Clare was holding her head, and said "this thing is enormous..."
It is actually referring to the amount of memory and emotion she received.
So it is more like "There are so much..."

After that Clare said "So this is the last remains of Rafaela..."
It is actually "So this is the final will of Rafaela..."

and it refers to the specific "form" Raciella has taken as awakend (if I understood correctly, that is), aka the twin goddess shape... which it was just said "looked evil" which I don't see going together with raph's last will ;)

[sonotme_9FedriqSama]

Her "last will"? what are you talking about?

well clare says that when she takes her claymore but we dont know Rafaela's last will is yet

[Shiek927]

I'm talking about THIS:


and it refers to the specific "form" Raciella has taken as awakend (if I understood correctly, that is), aka the twin goddess shape... which it was just said "looked evil" which I don't see going together with raph's last will ;)

......I still don't get it.

The word "will" doesn't make sense here. If ANYTHING, Rafaela's last will was giving everything to Claire and hoping she understands she's making a mistake. I don't think a will is something you unwillingly do like Rafaela merging into Raciella, that's not something she could change.

I mean, look at the word itself: "will", Rafaela willingly gave herself to Claire mentally. Did she willingly merge herself into Raciella? Not really :uhoh:

Something like "This is what Rafaela has become" makes more sense.

[Creangeru]

Helen wanted to sneak into a town out of curiosity, to see what an Abyssal One looked like. Helen on the other hand, started to talk about Isley like she wanted to fight him. At which point, Helen had to reason with her, saying that she didn't want to fight. I think there may be another occasion, but I can't think of it right now. But Deneve is also the only character who half awakened by testing her limit, seeing how close she could get to that forbidden line. And though it was a self preservation act, she half awakened twice to heal herself, which can be quite dangerous for her comrades.

About the second point, is it really being reckless when you are the type of person who is willing to sacrifice your life to save an other? Clare is even willing to put her quest for revenge on hold, to save someone.

The impression I get since she got Irene's arm is everyone and everything getting in her way to revenge. The theme which drove the manga "revenge" isn't as strongly emphased as it should. One could almost forget her initial goal was to kill the one who killed her beloved Teresa.

[Shiek927]

The impression I get since she got Irene's arm is everyone and everything getting in her way to revenge. The theme which drove the manga "revenge" isn't as strongly emphased as it should. One could almost forget her initial goal was to kill the one who killed her beloved Teresa.

Is that really so bad? I think you're being a little on hard Claire :(

She really is a good person, even if she acts bad. She's taken breaks time and time again to help the people she cares about. Finding Raki is still number 1 for her, but as straightforward and reckless as she seems at first, she's NEVER done something she didn't plan ahead of time, even if circumstances got in the way. She's highly emotional like Helen but she has a brain, Helen does not.

She still wants revenge in her heart, it's why she's the way she is today, but she's come a long way since then like you said. She's found people to love and her life has definitely gone uphill.

[Fenrir_valindri]

Maybe that is part of the message, there are more important things then just living for your revenge, especially when the person your trying to avenge wouldn't want you to become that type of person. :eyebrow:

[Creangeru]

She's highly emotional like Helen but she has a brain, Helen does not.

Now we are talking about the same stuff.:D

[zato_1one]

Because this manga isn't all about revenge. It's more on about friendship. IMO :)

[Shiek927]

Maybe that is part of the message, there are more important things then just living for your revenge, especially when the person your trying to avenge wouldn't want you to become that type of person. :eyebrow:

That seems to be what everybody thinks so, that she needs to stop living for a single black purpose like revenge.

When Claire meets Priscilla, their is over(in my opinion) an over 50% chance that she will awaken. Why not? This is the moment she's been waiting for her entire life.

I don't think Claire gets however that their are people who care for her and don't want her to go all out for revenge. She's got to stop, and break down the stone walls she's built all around her. I'm not just talking about letting only Raki in, she's got to get the big picture and get their are bigger things happening then just her revenge.

She SORT of gets it, taking breaks to help her comrades, but she's not quite there yet.

Because this manga isn't all about revenge. It's more on about friendship. IMO

Yep :D. It's a dark manga of course, but it's not about powers or strength, it's about humans and monsters, and what seperates the two, which is usually personality and empathy.

Raki is a weak human but he met and grew hearts in what were perceived as the darkest beings in existance. What does that tell you? about him? about them?

Roflmao, though your post makes it sound very light :heh:

[haegar]

......I still don't get it.

The word "will" doesn't make sense here. If ANYTHING, Rafaela's last will was giving everything to Claire and hoping she understands she's making a mistake. I don't think a will is something you unwillingly do like Rafaela merging into Raciella, that's not something she could change.

I mean, look at the word itself: "will", Rafaela willingly gave herself to Claire mentally. Did she willingly merge herself into Raciella? Not really :uhoh:

Something like "This is what Rafaela has become" makes more sense.

Well, first of all this is all a bit speculative since these are early translations. But from what I read from the lot of you, both Cyclone and Sagarsouske are quite good at translations. They both got this simmilar as far as I remember.

2nd: Imho it is meant like "last will" "final will" in the sense of that slip of paper where you write down what you want to happen in the event of your death.
It signifies the single most important thing you want which you can't achieve on your own anymore and thus you entrust somebody with it.

I'm not entirley convinced Raph's onyl final will /wish is to help clare, it is as well to resolve the situation of her sister's awakening. And it seems, that THIS SPECIFIC awakend form does that. Priscilla stated that this thing has no hunger for flesh, not even for life, so it is in a way NOT a typical AB not EVIL. IT MOURNS. instead of imediately going on a rampage. I guess that in a way, maybe only thanks to clare's help the result of all that mindmelding is that Luciella Awakend, with her abyssal "evil" character traits now is somehow CONTAINED within that new thing. So it seems to be the single best way for her sister to survive that Rapahella could concieve, and achieve, THUS Raciella taking that form, the passive tree in mourning, is RAPH's LAST WILL - SINCE SHE WANTED TO SAVE HER SISTER MORE THAN ANYTHING

admittedly a very hypothetical intertpretation - especially since only nect chapter will tell if Raciella STAYS that passive and nice ...

get it now? ;)

[Xcmreo]

Lol, where is this name "Raciela" coming from?

[sonotme_9FedriqSama]

Her "last will"? what are you talking about?

'cept for the fact that it seems strange that "raphaella's last will" is something evil, and it also seems strange that clare ain't panicking ^^

これがラファイラとしての．．．最後の意志か : so this is what Rafaela's last will is...
{ [として] (conj) (prt) as (for); for; by way of; in the role of; in the capacity of.}

so basically its the memories and I don't think there is anything evil there

[haegar]

Raphaella
Luciella

go do the math :heh:

[Shiek927]

Well, first of all this is all a bit speculative since these are early translations. But from what I read from the lot of you, both Cyclone and Sagarsouske are quite good at translations. They both got this simmilar as far as I remember.

2nd: Imho it is meant like "last will" "final will" in the sense of that slip of paper where you write down what you want to happen in the event of your death.
It signifies the single most important thing you want which you can't achieve on your own anymore and thus you entrust somebody with it.

I'm not entirley convinced Raph's onyl final will /wish is to help clare, it is as well to resolve the situation of her sister's awakening. And it seems, that THIS SPECIFIC awakend form does that. Priscilla stated that this thing has no hunger for flesh, not even for life, so it is in a way NOT a typical AB not EVIL. IT MOURNS. instead of imediately going on a rampage. I guess that in a way, maybe only thanks to clare's help the result of all that mindmelding is that Luciella Awakend, with her abyssal "evil" character traits now is somehow CONTAINED within that new thing. So it seems to be the single best way for her sister to survive that Rapahella could concieve, and achieve, THUS Raciella taking that form, the passive tree in mourning, is RAPH's LAST WILL - SINCE SHE WANTED TO SAVE HER SISTER MORE THAN ANYTHING

admittedly a very hypothetical intertpretation - especially since only nect chapter will tell if Raciella STAYS that passive and nice ...

get it now? ;)

mmmmm........no not really :heh:

I GOT how the "will" was a last wish, that's how I perceived it

However, I think I sort of get where you going, except one part; the reason it doesn't seem evil perhaps is because, not that the traits are contained, they aren't their at all. Rafaela gave all her experiences, including her dark ones to Claire, so perhaps they wouldn't be in Raciella when she awakened.

Could be why it's so sad, instead of angry.

[haegar]

これがラファイラとしての．．．最後の意志か : so this is what Rafaela's last will is...
{ [として] (conj) (prt) as (for); for; by way of; in the role of; in the capacity of.}

so basically its the memories and I don't think there is anything evil there

sry I don't understand what you mean with that :D

as you translate it, the part of "wish/will" refers ONLY to the meories she got?

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Maybe that is part of the message, there are more important things then just living for your revenge, especially when the person your trying to avenge wouldn't want you to become that type of person. :eyebrow:

Ah, I know you are a major Miria fan, but Miria states that she is on a quest for revenge as well. Revenge is the state reason for Miria's quest, not some good 'cause. So Miria in essence needs to learn the same lesson, and would be reckless too if seeking revenge is what defines you as being so.

Here is further evidence that Clare is not as reckless as people claim. How long did Clare put off her quest to find Raki, and her quest for vengeance? Is it really a reckless nature to postpone your personal goals, until you have evidence that they are achievable? Every time we see something more important come up than her quests, we see that Clare is willing to put her quests asides. A Reckless person would've went after what they wanted right away.

So basically, we have that all Clare's actions that are considered Reckless are done to save a life or lives. Clare is willing to put aside her own goals for the sake of others. Clare is willing to wait a very long time to postpone that which matters most to her. Revenge isn't a nice action, and may be considered reckless. Both Clare and Miria are on quests for vengence. Miria says so herself when it comes to her. As for revenge there is a logical view to that, and then a very personal emotional view. Clare doesn't exactly live in a world where the Police are going to arrest Priscilla and lock her up, so it is hard to judge the situation by our standards regarding revenge.

[sonotme_9FedriqSama]

sry I don't understand what you mean with that :D

well i don't remember what others translated it...but i translated that sentence...where clare picks up her claymore and says..."so this is what Rafaela's last will is...," and the thing she got were Rafaela's memories and feelings...so basically there is nothing evil there...the current awakened form is just an emotionless thing with no feelings...so how it may react we still don't know yet... I'm just confused as well why u were saying rafaela's will is evil

[camilla]

haegar's right. Raciella's mourning Raffaella's loss. The more I look at her awakened form, the more I find myself thinking of her as a mausoleum.

[haegar]

well i don't remember what others translated it...but i translated that sentence...where clare picks up her claymore and says..."so this is what Rafaela's last will is...," and the thing she got were Rafaela's memories and feelings...so basically there is nothing evil there...the current awakened form is just an emotionless thing with no feelings...so how it may react we still don't know yet... I'm just confused as well why u were saying rafaela's will is evil

I'm sry I'll already edited it. I didn't mean I don't understand your translation, I just ment I can't follow your explanation since I can't read the symbols....

Yxour translation is no diffrent from the ones before - the question just is this:

"so THIS is what Rafaela's last will is...,"

what does that THIS refer to? to clare now understanding raph's memories? to her claymore popping out of nowhere? to the Raciella entity as it is? Maybe I misunderstood, but some 5-10 pages back when the first translations showed up I somehow got it in my head that "THIS" referred to her FORM, to the "twin godess shape".

If that is simply wrong since the translation offers no ground for it, sry, my mistake.
If the translation does leave open that option, I think its "possible" as I tried to describe it ...


edit:
by the way sry for all the typos... I just never learned ten finger typing, and active discussion requires speed... so one way or another, something has to be sacrificed :D

edit: on re-reading noooo way this won't do; I'll correct at least every second or so :D


edit3: damn. I read to indiscriminately. sry. again. @ sonotme_9FedriqSama: I did not say Raphaella "is evil" I rather contested that Raciella might be evil, because I linked the way Raciella is to Raphaella's last will, and since I DON'T consider Raphaella evil, I don't think her last will is evil.

phew... I'll just read and write slower and thus circumvent confusing you further with my unstructured ramblings :D:D:D

[sonotme_9FedriqSama]

maybe thats what Rafaela wanted to be, a mausoleum for both Luceilla and herself

[sonotme_9FedriqSama]

I'm sry I'll already edited it. I didn't mean I don't understand your translation, I just ment I can't follow your explanation since I can't read the symbols....

Yxour translation is no diffrent from the ones before - the question just is this:

"so THIS is what Rafaela's last will is...,"

what does that THIS refer to? to clare now understanding raph's memories? to her claymore popping out of nowhere? to the Raciella entity as it is? Maybe I misunderstood, but some 5-10 pages back when the first translations showed up I somehow got it in my head that "THIS" referred to her FORM, to the "twin godess shape".

If that is simply wrong since the translation offers no ground for it, sry, my mistake.
If the translation does leave open that option, I think its "possible" as I tried to describe it ...

no apologies necessary...japanese in itself is a vague language (well not entirely alll languages are like that)...when the english verion comes out you can compare the difference i suppose

[Fenrir_valindri]

Ah, I know you are a major Miria fan, but Miria states that she is on a quest for revenge as well. Revenge is the state reason for Miria's quest, not some good 'cause. So Miria in essence needs to learn the same lesson, and would be reckless too if seeking revenge is what defines you as being so.

You act like I don't know that, both Clare and Miria have the same vice, Miria just doesn't go batshit crazy when the subject of her vengeance pops up, and she even seeks revenge against the Organization to prevent them from causing the same tragedy over and over again. She wants to shut the Organization down because they are the cause for all the suffering on the island, but Clare's own vendetta is much more personal in nature, targeting the person who killed Teresa, even though the Organization is the one who ordered her death.

Clare was initially a loner who wanted nothing but revenge, but Raki softened her up and helped show her that her revenge wasn't the only reason to live. Then Clare befriended Miria/Helen/Deneve and slowly opened up more to those around her. All if this helped Clare off the dark-path she was heading down, and she is now the person she is today.

Her overlaying goals are still: find Raki, kill Priscilla, but now "help comrades" is also on that list, it is the priority of this list that worries myself and others.

If kill Priscilla remains above all others (even Raki and her friends) then that isn't a good sign for her future, but if she is willing to put aside her quest for revenge when she meets Priscilla again in favor of Raki/friends, then there is still hope.


We really won't know what her priorities are until the fated meeting though.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Because this manga isn't all about revenge. It's more on about friendship. IMO :)

God, I hope not. I rather read a kick ass manga than one that does to unsubtly teach me morals, and everything that happen was to teach Clare about the power of friendship!


I don't think Claire gets however that their are people who care for her and don't want her to go all out for revenge. She's got to stop, and break down the stone walls she's built all around her. I'm not just talking about letting only Raki in, she's got to get the big picture and get their are bigger things happening then just her revenge.

Okay, now Claire is emotionally retarded and can't get concepts a nine year old could. And what evidence is there that Clare can't get that people care for her. I think Clare gets all of that, but she has two goals in life. She just acts cold, but that does not mean she doesn't understand, especially since she is a very emotional person on the inside.

Yep :D. It's a dark manga of course, but it's not about powers or strength, it's about humans and monsters, and what seperates the two, which is usually personality and empathy.
That I can agree with.

Well, first of all this is all a bit speculative since these are early translations. But from what I read from the lot of you, both Cyclone and Sagarsouske are quite good at translations. They both got this simmilar as far as I remember.

The CNet128 one or the Shrimpy one are what you going to see in English Scanlations. Cyclone's translation are more accurate, but he doesn't want to do the whole manga. Anyway Frankyhouse is probably going to use CNet128.

[GundamZZ]

You guys are making me confused about the story. The last well was the last wish Rashillia had when she was still walking. I had no confusion when I first read it from Clare. Riful's interpretaion was Rashillia's last will is to protect her sister. Now, her sister got her back. There's no space for enemies to backstab her sister.

[sonotme_9FedriqSama]

@Because this manga isn't all about revenge. It's more on about friendship. IMO

No...please thats too cliche

@God, I hope not. I rather read a kick ass manga than one that does to unsubtly teach me morals, and everything that happen was to teach Clare about the power of friendship!

I second that

[Shiek927]

Okay, now Claire is emotionally retarded and can't get concepts a nine year old could. And what evidence is there that Clare can't get that people care for her. I think Clare gets all of that, but she has two goals in life. She just acts cold, but that does not mean she doesn't understand, especially since she is a very emotional person on the inside.

Well, It's not like I know Claire or she's real, I can't ask her how she's feeling :rolleyes:

@Because this manga isn't all about revenge. It's more on about friendship. IMO

No...please thats too cliche

@God, I hope not. I rather read a kick ass manga than one that does to unsubtly teach me morals, and everything that happen was to teach Clare about the power of friendship!

I second that

You mean "subtly", unsubtly would be to just blurt out and say it or something like that.

[Fenrir_valindri]

I think the manga is more about what makes a person human, rather then friendship/revenge/family.

It encompasses all those things, but much more as well. Retaining your humanity is a big part of the plot after all, and touches all those other aspects as well.

[haegar]

God, I hope not. I rather read a kick ass manga than one that does to unsubtly teach me morals, and everything that happen was to teach Clare about the power of friendship!

well, so far I'd say there is a lesson on moral in here, which might be summarized as "moral ain't just black and white" - meaning that yes, moral, ethical problems human vs. monster, good vs. evil is a constant motiv, and thus a "moral" might be not to judge things prematurely.

But that is not objectionable to me. I don't mind a story with a moral, as long as that story doesn't try to be slick and convince me of that moral without me realizing it, which you might call an attempt at "pedagogy" or "symbolic violence" - in short I like to develop my own moral, but it's ok to get in touch with other morals, as long as they aren't "preaching"

Yagi ain't preaching. If at all, he preaches that questions of moral are not that easy to solve, which, as a moral in itself on a meta-level is good enough for me.

Another thing about stories with moral I don't like is this narrative construction of "once you understand and follow the "right" moral, everything turns out for the best in a nice cute little fairy tale manner..." which is usally achieved by having the protagonist start out as "amoral" only to undergo some sort of crisis which teaches him the "right" moral, and then suddelnly all his/her problems vanish.

That i.e. you could apply to clare: Her desire for revenge is basically amoral. Her finding out that friendship is more important might then lead to ALL the ghosts living "happily ever after".

And that's exactly what I like about Yagi, and what keeps this a "dark" manga despite the importance of friendship and empathy: Yagi reminds us that there is a PRICE to pay, and he is willing to make that point quite drastically, and literally, with limbs and entrails flying ever which way. (:D)

While I do miss Flora and Jean, from that point of view, the death of characters like them is NECCESSARY to keep the dark mood the mangaka might otherwise "sacrifice" to the nice little moral.

Overall I read the whole thing as a very DARK parable on moral, war and violence and the various emotions involved.....


Jezus, you got me going here with these three lines.... mention moral, and off he goes. :D:D:D




The CNet128 one or the Shrimpy one are what you going to see in English Scanlations. Cyclone's translation are more accurate, but he doesn't want to do the whole manga. Anyway Frankyhouse is probably going to use CNet128.

That's good to know. Guess I'll have to "enhance" the franky house with cyclone's insights then to get something that does the complexity of the matter justice :heh:

[Shiek927]

I think the manga is more about what makes a person human, rather then friendship/revenge/family.

It encompasses all those things, but much more as well. Retaining your humanity is a big part of the plot after all, and touches all those other aspects as well.

Mmmm........I can agree to a degree.

I think the question "What IS a human" is better, as the Awakened take the form of humans when they wish, and we have beings like Priscilla who don't eat others besides going against her nature, or Luciella crying in her sisters arm despite being on of the strongest creatures in the land.

What is a human being? What qualifies yourself as one? It's something I went into greater depth and detail here: (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=2451698#post2451698)

I COULD just be being overly philosophical, but as the lines between human and Awakened get blurrier and blurrier, and relationships, personality and empathy take center stage, I think it's not necessarily about being a human being(as Claymores aren't entirely human either), but rather asking what makes you one to begin with.

....Nah, I'm just being too philosophical XD.

[sonotme_9FedriqSama]

@God, I hope not. I rather read a kick ass manga than one that does to unsubtly teach me morals, and everything that happen was to teach Clare about the power of friendship

speaking of kick ass manga "until death do us part" pops into my mind...really kick as....and the loli is better looking than riful

[Fenrir_valindri]

That is more or less what I meant Shiek, if not in as many words. :heh:

On that note, Alicia/Beth and the Abyssal Eaters are the most inhuman things in the manga, and they were made by the Organization, a group of humans. :uhoh:

[haegar]

....Nah, I'm just being too philosophical XD.


AWWW come'on!!! THIS is where it gets interesting :D

to add a little to your nice thoughts there:

might also be about "what we generally DEFINE" as being human, and about how arbitrary that ultimately is....

[Gangsta Spanksta]

You act like I don't know that, both Clare and Miria have the same vice, Miria just doesn't go batshit crazy when the subject of her vengeance pops up, and she even seeks revenge against the Organization to prevent them from causing the same tragedy over and over again. She wants to shut the Organization down because they are the cause for all the suffering on the island, but Clare's own vendetta is much more personal in nature, targeting the person who killed Teresa, even though the Organization is the one who ordered her death.

I'm sorry if I somehow implied something I shouldn't have, but I had no way of knowing what you know. Going a bit crazy is a vice, but then it can be just as dangerous as freezing up. But then, on the battle field, people make mistakes. Then again, Miria did go bat-shit-crazy once, and almost awakened because of it, and only reverted out of spite. But ultimately, both Miria and Clare are good people; they just have different, conflicting goals. As for Clare's Revenge, it is more personal than Miria. Clare lost the person that was the most important to her. Mothers and Lovers should outrank good friends when it comes to personal tragedies, just my opinion.

Clare was initially a loner who wanted nothing but revenge, but Raki softened her up and helped show her that her revenge wasn't the only reason to live. Then Clare befriended Miria/Helen/Deneve and slowly opened up more to those around her. All if this helped Clare off the dark-path she was heading down, and she is now the person she is today.

Her overlaying goals are still: find Raki, kill Priscilla, but now "help comrades" is also on that list, it is the priority of this list that worries myself and others.

I think that is assuming a bit much. I don't see anything in the manga tha Raki, Helen, Deneve and Miria helped teach Clare to "Help comrades" In fact, chibi-Clare hugged Teresa because she wanted to comfort someone else, not because she wanted to be comforted. Clare has always been self-sacrificing from the moment we saw her. Neither Raki nor any member of the ghosts installed those values into her. In fact, I do think it is a tendency for people to make characters like Clare emotionally retarted, and say they are learning values and things that any nine year old should know. If the manga is all about teaching Clare such obvious moral values, then it is just sad.

If kill Priscilla remains above all others (even Raki and her friends) then that isn't a good sign for her future, but if she is willing to put aside her quest for revenge when she meets Priscilla again in favor of Raki/friends, then there is still hope.


We really won't know what her priorities are until the fated meeting though.

I think it is fairly obvious that Raki outranks Revenge. And Clare has show herself to put aside locating Raki and Revenge when need be. But honestly, I don't see it as too much of a character flaw, if Clare wants to avenge the person that meant everything to her in a world where nobody else will make sure that, that person will face justice.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Anyways, I'm off to the movies, I'll respond to anything later. :heh:

[haegar]

haegar's right. Raciella's mourning Raffaella's loss. The more I look at her awakened form, the more I find myself thinking of her as a mausoleum.


btw not surprising you agree, because as far as I remeber I got the notion from something you posted yourself before when we talked about the crying :D

so basically: your idea :D

[sonotme_9FedriqSama]

That is more or less what I meant Shiek, if not in as many words. :heh:

On that note, Alicia/Beth and the Abyssal Eaters are the most inhuman things in the manga, and they were made by the Organization, a group of humans. :uhoh:

I don't really see MIB as humans ( i mean they are) but look at their faces....and veins popping frm their heads...

[haegar]

how about "perverted twisted" humans :D

or embodyments of the human soul's darker regions ...

[sonotme_9FedriqSama]

lol :D that would fit them

[Fenrir_valindri]

I think to most Claymores, their friends basically are there family.

Hilda might as well have been Miria's sister for the trauma it left her with, she did almost awaken after all, and Clare did something simliar when Flora got sliced in half and Jean got impaled.

Teresa was a sister/mother-figure of Clare, but it is a bit haughty to claim their relationship was above/beyond the other relationships in this manga, especially when it has been stated a number of times that all Claymores come from tragic backgrounds.

It is like saying Helen wouldn't be devastated if Deneve died, or that it wouldn't be as traumatic if it was her parents. Good friends are sometimes the same thing as family.

---------

As for the MiB not really looking human; They are human, and that is what adds to the theme. They may be something less/more than human now, but their actions define them as humans/monsters as much as any Claymore or Awakened Being.

[rukori]

Can anyone tell whether renee is dead or alive? Riful talks like she had already killed her...

[DragoZERO]

AWESOME!

Riful is done for and Clare & Co. have their hands full for sure. Cynthia is the best though. Cute and able, hah.

I don't know how Clare lost her clothes though.. that is a bit weird. lol.

[ThoHell]

AHHHHHH, what a treat of a chapter and also at the same time what a torture. Leaving with ending with such an insane cliffhanger. Man, i kept checking how many pages remain with each page I read hoping it wasn't ending soon. Wow, good chapter, making the wait for 94 unbearable....

I wonder if their is some sort of significant meaning to why the awakened form of Raciella and Raffaella look like the statue of Clare and Teresa? I know Deneve and Helen are rushing in to help Clare, all hell is breaking loose and everyone is in panic, but what can they expect to do when they arrive to where Clare is? The situation is soooooo far beyond control, especially theirs, but I guess it's the thought that counts.....

[Cyclone]

there might also arise some trouble if the ghosts do not so wholeheartedly support clare's idea of keeping an abyssal pet ^^

in other words if raciella does more than stand around and grow leaves, and if clare does fell some kind of responsibility...

wheras miria on the other hand might be in favor of getting the org down, in the process eliminating all "bad things" the org created ...such as say... well superabyssal trees with unstable minds...

well the ghosts might be divided in happy tree friends and not so happy tree friends :D

Where do I sign up for tree hugging? Protect our forests!! Woohoo!

---

@Gangsta: don't use honorifics on me - it's fine for Galatea-sama (or Teresa I suppose), but it's just not right for me and I don't like it.

--

About the morality thing in the story. I have always said it's a character driven story. The characters all have their own morality - clearly Ophelia's and Clare's are not alike for example. The characters then play out because of these traits and bring us a story Yagi wants to tell us.
Any overarching morality will play out in the story Yagi tells us. We'll find that out in how the story ultimately plays out, which plot choices he makes, and which characters he sacrifices and why. I think it's still too early to get a complete picture of any over-arching morality themes though.

Dealing with morality like Naruto is trying to do it is horrible and Kishimoto deserves to smacked around for foisting that crap upon us (I so wish that Naruto is beaten to death of his own free will and the manga just ends like that). I'm about ready to stop reading it after this week because of Kishimoto's endless desire to preach his idiotic pasifism BS (and all his "as long as you can talk to the bad guy, he'll resurect all your friends, appologize and die" life lessons). It's become propaganda (telling goal oriented lies), not telling a story (truths/facts/exmaple which, IF desired, you can learn from).

[ThoHell]

Dealing with morality like Naruto is trying to do it is horrible and Kishimoto deserves to smacked around for foisting that crap upon us (I so wish that Naruto is beaten to death of his own free will and the manga just ends like that). I'm about ready to stop reading it after this week because of Kishimoto's endless desire to preach his idiotic pasifism BS (and all his "as long as you can talk to the bad guy, he'll resurect all your friends, appologize and die" life lessons). It's become propaganda (telling goal oriented lies), not telling a story (truths/facts/exmaple which, IF desired, you can learn from).

LOL, whoa whoa whoa! Don't bring that Naruto thing into Claymore, they are on completely different lvls. The last Naruto chapter upset me enough a long with so many others, so lets not bring anger from that section over to our beloved Claymore section!

[Cyclone]

Fair enough - sorry.
It's just this was my first chance to vent about it.

[Xcmreo]

Man Yagi likes to draw awakened beings in "flower vase/ramen cup" style

[ThoHell]

Fair enough - sorry.
It's just this was my first chance to vent about it.

:heh: You're not the only one who wanted to or needed to. That was indeed a bad chapter huh? But man, Claymore is seriously getting intense. Why can't all mangas be this good. I really wonder when and how Clare will meet up with Raki?

[Freya]

WOw....freaking kick ass chapter. All I have to say....Riful is so dead.

If it was Riful vs Alicia/Beth then she might have a chance, but with the AF, it's literally impossible.

[-Sho-]

Lool Nude Clare :)
And Riful and this big idiot pawned ! Dead crisis yeah .
I think that Raki and Clare will met soon .

[graywolf202]

Just a quick thought on this chapter.

Riful isn't very good in Youki sensing, not to the caliber of an Eye (Galatea, Miata, Renee) at least. Also, she was focused on Raciela and the Abyssal Feeders.

However, given Riful's caliber, she should have sensed Alicia-Beth at least a few miles away.

This makes me think that Alicia-Beth are hiding their Youki OR they're really damn fast. Or both.

[dweller of the deep]

Just a quick thought on this chapter.

Riful isn't very good in Youki sensing, not to the caliber of an Eye (Galatea, Miata, Renee) at least. Also, she was focused on Raciela and the Abyssal Feeders.

However, given Riful's caliber, she should have sensed Alicia-Beth at least a few miles away.

This makes me think that Alicia-Beth are hiding their Youki OR they're really damn fast. Or both.

well, accordingly to Rubel they are the most powerful claymores ever, so, i think they are hiding their yoki..and are really too damn fast as you said :p

(of course that most powerful claymore thing is bullshit, Teresa would owned them both <3)

[SagaraSouske]

Damn, gone for a few hours and so many more posts.

The last will sentence wasn't referring to Racilla. It either refers to Rafaela's wish to protect Luciella like someone said earlier or something that has not been revealed yet. The reason why Clare knew Rafaela's last will is obviously because of the memory transfer.

What Alicia said last page was correct in the original translation. She didn't mentioned AEs or mobilize AEs, she basically said the AO hunt started. It may imply AEs are mobilized, if you assume they have any control over them.

I don't think Alicia or Beth knows youki suppression unless they learned it during the 7 years. But Talbetha and Miria was able to sense them from pretty far away. They prob just converged in on Ritful and Dauf with 0 percent release and Ritful's attention is fully on the AEs.

[Zsych]

I don't recall it ever being said that Alicia and Beth were the strongest ever.
Raciella's new body turned out pretty cool. Now if only Teresa would be reborn out of Clare, everything would be cool :P

I wonder what Yagi intends to do with Clare's pseudo-rebirth. Actually it would be cool, if out of the wines that birthed Clare, a new body also came out (yes, you know who I mean).. the symbology would be perfectly timed. Otherwise, I'm not really sure why Yagi still puts Teresa on the covers, when she was just an incidental part of Clare's backstory.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

I think the question "What IS a human" is better, as the Awakened take the form of humans when they wish, and we have beings like Priscilla who don't eat others besides going against her nature, or Luciella crying in her sisters arm despite being on of the strongest creatures in the land.

I don't disagree that Claymore is a story about the struggle between one's human nature and one's demonic nature. But it is the notion that the story is about Clare having to learn an important moral lesson in life that I don't like. I think at this point, it is pretty obvious that Clare will eventually have to abandon her quest for revenge, because Priscilla is not evil, and at least at this point even the person who killed Teresa. As for lessons on friendship, what does Clare need to learn, again? She obviously cares for her friends from what we've seen in the war of the North. She needs to learn to rely on her friends? that's just an unsubtle moral infusion that is totally uninteresting to me. I really would hate to see that in the final moments of the manga, that Helen, Deneve and Miria come to save Clare. It would be better if all four of the fabulous four just barely survive whatever it was they went up against.


speaking of kick ass manga "until death do us part" pops into my mind...really kick as....and the loli is better looking than riful

I read that one too, though the chapters always feel to short. :D Anyway Lolis? That's Shieky thing. :heh:

[MisterJB]

(of course that most powerful claymore thing is bullshit, Teresa would owned them both <3)

Please, prove it.

[Freya]

Please, prove it.

He can't. She's "dead".

[MonsieurRosseau]

I don't recall it ever being said that Alicia and Beth were the strongest ever.



"The strongest number one in the annals was born." One of the MiBs said that about them... Or was it Rubel?

[Stahlwolf]

You know....-

Hey, gang, Haven't been around to comment lately, but this needs some serious commenting.

I have to hand it to Yagi-sensei. He really knows how to draw up the unexpected. And TWICE this chapter!
Nevermind the fact that Raciella has now become known (BTW, VERY NICE AB, and I think Rafaela dove into Claire's mind for that one) but just when going from page 20 to 21 I found myself saying "Oh, f*ck!" as those things showed up.

I can understand the flood of youki emanating from Raciella would drown out Alicia and Beth's youki when they approached Riful, but could she have sensed the others that were nearby as well? Or did the Twins also have some soft of dampening powers?

I fear the next chapter may not be the start of the expected fight but perhaps another storyline. I don't expect Yagi-sensei to just have the Battle of the Sisters start right then and there. He may string us along with another extra, and then give rise to go back to that batle. The Beginning of one's demise..... whomever shall it be?
IMHO I do believe the Twins will have their hands full.

BTW.... How will Galatea react to all this youki now? "Girls. Time to pack up. NOW!"

-Cheers

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Alicia is probably considered the strongest number one, because she can Awaken. The org. is ignorant of the fact of Teresa's true power, and it didn't know that Teresa has the strength to rip limbs off a former #1

[Shiek927]

I read that one too, though the chapters always feel to short. Anyway Lolis? That's Shieky thing.

? Um, actually it's MisterJB's thing. I didn't even know that word existed until he taught me that, and it sounds even more stupid everytime I hear it :heh:

[Shiek927]

I didn't made it up. Everyone uses loli of the West.

Yeah, and it sounds funny everytime I hear it :heh::heh:

Honestly, "Riful of the West" sounds better. Loli.......I just think of lollipops or something :heh::rolleyes:, come on.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

:heh: Maybe you should join some of the Loli clubs FragrantFlora is in.

[Shiek927]

:heh: Maybe you should join some of the Loli clubs FragrantFlora is in.

You'll have to remind me what it means again first :rolleyes:. The same way I don't type in words in Google Images that I don't know their meaning, the same for clubs :heh:

[Throne Invader]

This chapter was most definitely amazing. Now we've finally seen Raciella's awakened form and it very much resembles the Twin Goddesses Statue. I'm glad Yagi made it work out somehow. Next chapter will probably be much more exciting. What'll be Raciella's first action? What's Clare gonna do about it? Where's Renee? WIll Dauf finally die? :heh: And I'm also curious about what's gonna happen to RIful and Alicia's battle.

I seriously think Miria should be in that scene too though. She's kinda like an important character too.

[Shiek927]

I seriously think Miria should be in that scene too though. She's kinda like an important character too.

Kind of? She is an important character. :heh:

I don't know......the whole things messy enough as it is. Better that she stays in Rabona for now.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

:D I thought you just said it meant Lollipop club.

[Shiek927]

:D I thought you just said it meant Lollipop club.

Does it? Loli sounds like Lollipop, sure makes me think of them anyway....but last I checked, Riful is no damn lollipop :heh::heh::heh:

[MisterJB]

I don't know......the whole things messy enough as it is. Better that she stays in Rabona for now.

No, we need Miria to release a minimum of Yoki and defeat Raciella.

Merging with her and coming out naked would be nice too.

Riful is no damn lollipop :heh::heh::heh:

No, but she is a damn loli

[Shiek927]

No, we need Miria to release a minimum of Yoki and defeat Raciella.

Merging with her and coming out naked would be nice too.

Oh brother, aside from ranting on Riful, you can count on JB to showboat Miria like she's the queen of sheba :heh::heh:

Rigardo too

No, but she is a damn loli

Whatever you say pal, whatever you say :heh:

[Zsych]

I half wonder if the Raciella thing isn't utterly lacking in memories - and thought. Who knows what it is. It might just sit there, only attacking if it needs to, to survive. Going by Priscilla, an AB can go quite a while without eating.

[Shiek927]

I half wonder if the Raciella thing isn't utterly lacking in memories - and thought. Who knows what it is. It might just sit there, only attacking if it needs to, to survive. Going by Priscilla, an AB can go quite a while without eating.

Well, Rafaela gave much of herself to Claire, so this things memories should primarily be from Luciella. Keep in mind that this thing is something born for the first time so It doesn't have anything to remember. Nevertheless, I always thought she may have flashbacks of some sort to her "past life" as Luciella.

And I doubt this thing is gonna just sit there, we'll probably see her human form next chapter and it's way of traveling, whatever it could be.

Riful isn't very good in Youki sensing, not to the caliber of an Eye (Galatea, Miata, Renee) at least. Also, she was focused on Raciela and the Abyssal Feeders.

However, given Riful's caliber, she should have sensed Alicia-Beth at least a few miles away.

This makes me think that Alicia-Beth are hiding their Youki OR they're really damn fast. Or both.

It's also very possible that the yoki from Raciella was so overwhelming large that she had all her attention focused on it
(which she did), and/or it actually provided a cloak for Alicia and Beth to hide under. Probably both.

She should have been able to sense Alicia and Beth, she was just too preocupied with Raciella. We already know from the Witches Maw
that she is fully capable of sensing, even when their presumably suppressed. She was able to feel a jolt in Raciella even when Renee didn't.

Riful......hard to say if she's on the level of an Eye, but damn is she close. I'm gonna say....near borderline

[MisterJB]

Nevertheless, I always thought she may have flashbacks of some sort to her "past life" as Luciella.

Isley should be glad he is already dead, then.

Being eaten alive is nothing compared to what the Goddess would have done to him.

[MonsieurRosseau]

But weren't they goddesses of love?

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Well, Rafaela gave much of herself to Claire, so this things memories should primarily be from Luciella. Keep in mind that this thing is something born for the first time so It doesn't have anything to remember. Nevertheless, I always thought she may have flashbacks of some sort to her "past life" as Luciella.

And I doubt this thing is gonna just sit there, we'll probably see her human form next chapter and it's way of traveling, whatever it could be.

Actually, the thing is acting more like Rafaela than Luciella, or should I say it is acting more like the new consciousness that was Raciella than Rafaela or Luciella? Raciella before awakening was quite content in being a paper weight, and having her consciousness fade away into nothingness. From the sounds of it, Raciella the Abyssal One is quite content in having her consciousness fade away into nothingness, so nothing has changed so far. It'll take something attacking Clare to get it to move I am guessing.

[Throne Invader]

But weren't they goddesses of love?

Nice point MonsieurRosseau :heh: Wonder if Yagi has any other surprises for us.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Teresa and Clare were.

Raciella is the Bringer of Despair.

Awesome.:cool:

Oh my god, Raciella is an emo.

[Shiek927]

Actually, the thing is acting more like Rafaela than Luciella, or should I say it is acting more like the new consciousness that was Raciella than Rafaela or Luciella? Raciella before awakening was quite content in being a paper weight, and having her consciousness fade away into nothingness. From the sounds of it, Raciella the Abyssal One is quite content in having her consciousness fade away into nothingness, so nothing has changed so far. It'll take something attacking Clare to get it to move I am guessing.

Wait a second

When did you ever get the idea that Raciella was "content to fade away"?

She wasn't even concious then, she was "sleeping" if anything, if you can even call it that yet. How could she be content about anything at all?

The reason it's not moving or doing anything is because it doesn't know what to think at all; it's sort of like waking up from a coma after 20 years, what are you supposed to do, say, or think?

Once it sees or feels Claire, it'll probably start doing something yes.

[Throne Invader]

Will it attack Clare? SInce Helen and Deneve are coming their way, if it does attack Clare, it's most probably gonna be a 3 vs 1 showdown. Our 3 Claymore warriors are bound to get serious injuries if they fight against Raciella.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Wait a second

When did you ever get the idea that Raciella was "content to fade away"?

She wasn't even concious then, she was "sleeping" if anything, if you can even call it that yet.

The reason it's not moving or doing anything is because it doesn't know what to think at all; it's sort of like waking up from a coma after 20 years, what are you supposed to do, say, or think?

Once it sees or feels Claire, it'll probably start doing something yes.

It kicked Rene out of her for disturbing it. But basically, Raicella is a combination of Rafaela and Luciella, and that was probably one of Rafaela desires in the end, so it became one of Raicella desires. The proof is simple, Raciella awakens, Priscilla tells us what it is feeling, Raciella goes back to the state she was before awakening. Raciella does not have the will to live. If it is not because of that, do you have any other reason of why that is?

[Throne Invader]

It kicked Rene out of her for disturbing it. But basically, Raicella is a combination of Rafaela and Luciella, and that was probably one of Rafaela desires in the end, so it became one of Raicella desires. The proof is simple, Raciella awakens, Priscilla tells us what it is feeling, Raciella goes back to the state she was before awakening. Raciella does not have the will to live. If it is not because of that, do you have any other reason of why that is?

Guess Priscilla has that special Galatea skill.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Guess Priscilla has that special Galatea skill.

Ah, I think Priscilla has some sensing skills that Galatea doesn't. Priscilla was able to sense that Clare was powerful. Galatea sees her yoki as tiny. In another thread, I speculated that it is because Priscilla and Miria can sense Yokiquality while most characters including Galatea see Yokisize.

[Shiek927]

It kicked Rene out of her for disturbing it. But basically, Raicella is a combination of Rafaela and Luciella, and that was probably one of Rafaela desires in the end, so it became one of Raicella desires. The proof is simple, Raciella awakens, Priscilla tells us what it is feeling, Raciella goes back to the state she was before awakening. Raciella does not have the will to live. If it is not because of that, do you have any other reason of why that is?

It's not that it kicked Renee out, how could it?

I have a completely different mindset about Raciella, or at least how she was at the time: Awakening(as in, bringing her to life) Raciella, was like trying to bring a dead person back to life, or create Frankenstein. The body may be complete, but he needed that bolt of lightning to bring him to life. Until then, it wasn't capable of anything at all, no matter what it could potentially do.

It's not that she "kicked her out" - Outwardly, the two bodies were fusing, but inside, everything was completely dormant or "sleeping". Raciella during the merger, was like a baby inside the mother's stomach, it's not capable of anything at all yet, even if it's physically "under construction".

So when Renee went into her, their was nothing but mere flickers of life, nothing inwardly was going on yet because she had no "charge" or jolt too wake her up, which is what Riful wanted. Going deeper though, she felt Raciella's dormant powers which was too much for Renee and crushed her "astral form".

And of course, Claire was the "electrical jolt" to get her insides working and speed up the Awakening.

Raciella hasn't done anything yet because it doesn't understand anything - half of what was used to create her mind is pretty much empty because it was given to Claire, all it has left are mostly from Luciella, whose last moments were crying. If Raciella were in human form, she'd be basically a baby looking around the room with big eyes, completely confused on what the heck is going on the world around her, and what do babies like to do right when they wake up? Cry. Raciella? Well, she's not very happy right now.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Dunno, from the sounds of it, Rafaela was upset that Clare stopped Raciella, her other personality from fading into nothingness, that she was quite content to do so.

[Shiek927]

Dunno, from the sounds of it, Rafaela was upset that Clare stopped Raciella, her other personality from fading into nothingness, that she was quite content to do so.

*shrug

I never thought Rafaela had any sort of choice in the matter, that Raciella was going to awaken whether she liked it or not and she was upset that Claire was speeding up the process so she gave what she thought would help Claire, and help weaken Raciella at the same time, much of her concious self. I never got the idea that Raciella was fading away at all.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

But Raciella has already been defined as being the combination of Rafaela and Luciella by Rene. The new consciousness is a merger of the two. Rafaela is a stubborn person like Clare. If a desire is so great that it is defining, then that desire may be a great part of Raciella's own psyche.

[Shiek927]

But Raciella has already been defined as being the combination of Rafaela and Luciella by Rene. The new consciousness is a merger of the two. Rafaela is a stubborn person like Clare. If a desire is so great that it is defining, then that desire may be a great part of Raciella's own psyche.

Sure, makes sense to me. I never questioned that Raciella wasn't a combination. However, because it is a combination, this is neither Rafaela or Luciella but something new, which is why it's like a baby coming out of the egg for the first time. Obviously something of Rafaela's had to make it into the merging process, regardless of how much she gave to Claire.

I have a feeling that she is also at Priscilla's league in suppression, a trait born from Rafaela's final years.

[Freya]

I was wondering. Could the AEs beat Priscilla?

[Shiek927]

I was wondering. Could the AEs beat Priscilla?

First off, do the AE's have some of her flesh in your question?

Pretending they do, no reason not to assume so. Obviously she'll tear them to bits the first couple of times, as will anybody at her power, but slowly and surely, they'll break her down as they do to everybody. In fact, it probably won't take very long since she's already at her limits and weakening herself.

They will adapt to her and grow wings and such to be able to beat her.

If they DON'T have her flesh, she's in the clear and can kill them with ease as long as she makes sure nobody takes her flesh away.

Thus for the most part, as long as nobody takes her flesh, the answer is No.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Rafaela can't take away what Raciella already has, because Raciella is the dominate personality now. Rafaela seems to be determined one of the two sisters. It would seem like she would have the stronger desires, the ones that are more defining. So if Rafaela's desire was to be with her sister and fade away into the void, and it was so strong that it is a defining quality of who she is, then it is likely to be a quality that Raciella is going to have. And yes, Raciella is a baby, but she is born with those desires, and she will have no reason to do anything but fade away, unless she has a reason to wake up and live. Clare is the only person that can give Raciella a reason to live.

[Shiek927]

Rafaela can't take away what Raciella already has, because Raciella is the dominate personality now.

Why do you constantly call Raciella a "personality"? she has one personality, and it's her own which we haven't see anything of because we haven't seen her do anything yet :confused:

Well you seem to know what you're talking about so I'll just take your word for it, I don't even know what we're really debating about :heh:

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Personality and consciousness here mean the same thing. That as in that there are more than one persons occupying that noggin of hers.

[Tempest35]

The tension is mounting and you can feel it in this chapter. Such decisive encounters happening at the same time - Riful vs Alicia, Beth, and the Abyssal Feeders, and the Ghosts vs Raciella. *feeling giddy* Oh and Helen taking charge - lol.

I got an excited tingle from reading this chapter and that's a good thing - it's been a while since I've felt this from reading Claymore. Thank you Yagi, you've hooked us at least for the duration of this arc. :D

[Shiek927]

Personality and consciousness here mean the same thing.

*blink, they do? :uhoh::twitch:

Well....I mean, I guess I can understand how a person would think that. I just never had the line of thinking before. I mean, do Babies have a personality the minute they are born? or grow one overtime through experience?

I think it's a battle of Nature vs Nurture again, and I usually lean towards Nurture most of the time.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

*blink, they do? :uhoh::twitch:

Well....I mean, I guess I can understand how a person would think that. I just never had the line of thinking before. I mean, do Babies have a personality the minute they are born? or grow one overtime through experience?

I think it's a battle of Nature vs Nurture again, and I usually lean towards Nurture most of the time.

Okay lets go over the theory that was developed in the last chapter about awkenings. It was speculated that what was happening in Raciella is not the exception to the rule but how Awakenings truly happen. It was speculated that in general, Claymores can overtime develop another consciousness with its own personality, an awakened consciousness. It was pointed out that this consciousness could be the reason why overtime some claymores awaken on their own, that that consciousness has become stronger than the human consciousness. It was speculated that when a Claymore awakens, the new consciousness supplants the old one -- the old one either suppressed or fades away. The new consciousness inherits the memory that is still in the brain and thinks it is the same person, but it is not. An awakening, is not exactly like the birth of a baby. The Awakened mind maybe a new born child, but it inherits knowledge and feelings, which it may interpret differently. With Raciella however, we have a merger of two minds, and one minds desires may win over another mind's desires depending where they are stronger and more defining. The new awaken being will never be Luciella or Rafaela, but it may think it is one of them, or both of them.

[Shiek927]

Okay lets go over the theory that was developed in the last chapter about awkenings. It was speculated that what was happening in Raciella is not the exception to the rule but how Awakenings truly happen. It was speculated that in general, Claymores can overtime develop another consciousness with its own personality, an awakened consciousness. It was pointed out that this consciousness could be the reason why overtime some claymores awaken on their own, that that consciousness has become stronger than the human consciousness. It was speculated that when a Claymore awakens, the new consciousness supplants the old one -- the old one either suppressed or fades away. The new consciousness inherits the memory that is still in the brain and thinks it is the same person, but it is not. An awakening, is not exactly like the birth of a baby. The Awakened mind maybe a new born child, but it inherits knowledge and feelings, which it may interpret differently. With Raciella however, we have a merger of two minds, and one minds desires may win over another mind's desires depending where they are stronger and more defining. The new awaken being will never be Luciella or Rafaela, but it may think it is one of them, or both of them.

Hmmm....I think I'm starting to get this.

And by that, I mean how you interpret this. Thing is, I never considered Awakening like getting a new personality or awakening a new conciousness, at least not exactly in the way you're explaining it to me. My line of thinking isn't TOO different, but not exactly word for word the way you're explaining it to me

In this post(http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=2451698#post2451698), although I go off-topic and talk about many other things, I give my viewpoint on Awakening, which is why our line of thinking turns away from eachother.

Raciella.....Raciella is definitely gonna have subconcious feelings, instincts and all sorts of things that, she won't be able to explain, because they carry over from Luciella and what was left from Rafaela. They're HERs, but at the same time they're not. In that sense, it goes more with your explanation for example on why she's crying.

We really do have the same thinking, it's just not perfectly the same, but we more or less arrive at the same conclusion :heh::rolleyes::p

[khryoleoz]

I find Priscilla's reaction to sensing Raciella interesting and worthy of contrast. Back when she was weaker, she was pissing her pants scared of Teresa who suppressed her own powers and though managed to subdue her didn't particularly put a scratch on her.

And here is Priss now, a full blown AB, on a hunger diet, going on about Raciella's psychology yet indifferent and expressionless about Raciella's power.

I now have some serious doubts about Isley's or Riful's original assessment that the power of two AOs is what stands a chance against Priss. I'll go out on a limb here and predict that it's as close as one who isn't Teresa can get, but still not enough. Whoever does have to put Priss down I'm guessing would make some very exciting scenes to see play out.

[Awakened]

Ok, Clare was a part of Racilia. Page 13 we see Clare's clothes on Racilia's body. There is only one possible way to remove Clare's clothes. Clare had to melt into Racilia for her clothes to come out, keep in mind the way she emerged out of Racilia.

I think Racilia is going to inspire Priscilla. Priscilla can learn something from Racillia. She said something about Racillia not having hunger.

I don't think the ZACS will ever be able to kill Riful. Riful can attack with 20 or more attacks at once. If the ZACS becomes unable to move they are as good as dead. Riful Ab form also makes it more difficult for the ZACS to get to her. OK, a combined coordinated attack might bring her down.

I don't have mush hope that Racilia will be of any use to anyone. She might provide inspiration for Pricilla and power up for Clare, but she might die soon. She is way to powerful and way to big.

[Shiek927]

I find Priscilla's reaction to sensing Raciella interesting and worthy of contrast. Back when she was weaker, she was pissing her pants scared of Teresa who suppressed her own powers and though managed to subdue her didn't particularly put a scratch on her.

And here is Priss now, a full blown AB, on a hunger diet, going on about Raciella's psychology yet indifferent and expressionless about Raciella's power.

I now have some serious doubts about Isley's or Riful's original assessment that the power of two AOs is what stands a chance against Priss. I'll go out on a limb here and predict that it's as close as one who isn't Teresa can get, but still not enough. Whoever does have to put Priss down I'm guessing would make some very exciting scenes to see play out.

I'm confused, what are you trying to say?

and Claire is the one who's closest to Teresa because she has a piece of her inside. No one comes as close as Claire does.

And guys, we don't know if Raciella can change. I'm still betting we haven't seen all she can do considering we haven't seen anything at all yet. Maybe she's flight capable for crying out loud, maybe she has a humanoid form like Priscilla does.

[Supermutant]

Pretty crazy chapter. The zombies and twins arriving at the end really surprised me a lot; and I worry that Riful's levelled response is more overconfidence than anything else. Riful is also exhibiting more bloodlust than her scheming personality and friendly appearance would lead someone to expect. She's a multi-faceted character.
I also got the impression from Riful's talking that Renee was dead, but without a body to see I should assume that she is still alive.

Incidentally, has it been awhile since there were two simultaneous events of similar importance going on at once? I don't recall that happening too much before.

While the twin awakened figure is certainly alive, I have to agree with what some have suggested earlier -- that the creature looks a lot like a grave. It's existence is a total mystery to me.

It's neat how often this twin motiff pops up in the story. I wonder if that's just an ascetic choice, or whether it is going to have some actual plot significance. Either way, it's pretty neat.

[Cyclone]

MisterJB: If you don't want us to read your posts, why are you posting in the first place? Coming back after several hours and seeing like 4 new posts deleted is quite frankly annoying. Or does someone have to resort to quoting each and every one of your posts as soon as you make them so that you can't delete it and the rest of us can read them?

[Gooral]

How come Priscilla could tell about emotions being expelled? Emotions=youki? It looks like chibamonster was right and human emotions and power of a claymore are somehow connected. Even stranger is what she said later: "It possesses neither desire for meat nor even attachment to life". That's not something one can know after sensing youki/emotions (I think). Also the place they're at is very empty. When Helen and Deneve were last in town the street was crowded, here we can't see a single soul other than Priscilla or Raki. Well, the area we see is small and it was probably Yagi's laziness but I noticed that after Gangsta wrote that Priscilla looks taller. Maybe she just ate :D.

I find it strange that Clare lost all of her clothes and they were undamaged even though we've seen them torn to pieces in her dream (so one could doubt she would be dead in real world if she was killed by Rafaela since what happened in Rafaela's mind didn't affect real world). It looks like she stripped (or was teleported). Even more interesting is that she wore only a cloak even though the rest of her clothes were lying on the ground next to her :).
Clare looks now exactly as Jean did when she awakened. That makes me wonder whether she has already awakened or at least half awakened again. Otherwise how come could she survive Raciella's awakening? As Renee said awakening of the twins would kill everybody except abyssal. She was sure that even Dauff wouldn't stand a chance (and we know how tough he is) but somehow Clare survived. Of course it's possible that thanks to Rafaela she was inside Cyclone's eye, I mean the eye of a cyclone ;).

As for Deneve's recklessness, she's no more reckless than Helen. The difference between her and Helen is she's almost indestructible, there aren't many beings that can kill her and when there is danger she doesn't back off because of it. Helen, even though she knows that she can't regenerate if she's heavily wounded rushes in and follows Deneve. I would say that someone who follows a fool is even more foolish.

[Fenrir_valindri]

I think Yoki simply reflects emotions due to how closely the release of Yoki is when tied to the wielders mental state. Yoki rages out when a warrior is angry, and Yoki can be controlled and contained to a specific body-part when you have a strong concentration.

Priscilla is probably just reading Raciella's Yoki much like Galatea read the fab 4's Yoki way back when.

It is rather interesting that it is just sending out a feeling of despair, kind of worrisome tbh.
-----

As for why Priscilla isn't all intimidated or surprised by Raciella's Yoki, I think it is rather apparent that Priscilla's personality is extremely different from back when she faced Teresa; we haven't seen that Priscilla act like that since before she awakened. Although I suppose it is possible that she is simply that powerful after awakening her full potential, but that would surprise me, especially in her current state.

I simply think Priscilla's mental breakdown has finally passed, and the subsequent recovery at Isley/Raki's side have simply matured/helped her for the better.

-----

Edit: A few things I randomly noticed reading the scanlation;
1) Riful's "awww your so caring" look when Dauf expresses his fear of Riful getting killed fighting Raciella, and 2) Riful looked really damn intimidating when she was threatening to make the Abyssal Eaters regret they could regenerate so well. I even almost felt like the AE paused in the next panel due to that look.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

The reading of emotion is nothing new in fact. Galatea was able to read and psychoanalyze Clare, down to her personal tragedy, and Raciella, unlike Clare, isn't hiding her emotions.

[graywolf202]

I don't think the ZACS will ever be able to kill Riful. Riful can attack with 20 or more attacks at once. If the ZACS becomes unable to move they are as good as dead. Riful Ab form also makes it more difficult for the ZACS to get to her. OK, a combined coordinated attack might bring her down.


Riful can't catch Seven Yoki-suppressed Claymores; eleven ZACS will be a problem.

[OliverTwist]

It seems like Raki and Priscilla are gonna end up being the ones that come in at the end and clean up the mess thats about to happen. On that map in chapter 92 they were closest to the action, yet the other 2 groups got there first. To me that means they can join in pretty much whenever.

I'm sorta curious who they're gonna end up fighting. It could be literally anyone at the party at this point, although I have a feeling the ghosts are gonna run for the hills before they get there, as none of them are really in fighting condition.

[Fenrir_valindri]

Riful can't catch Seven Yoki-suppressed Claymores; eleven ZACS will be a problem.

Catching stealhed opponents who are running away is very different from killing 11 stealthed opponents confronting you directly.

Although it is possible that over the course of several years they would be able to wear her down like Isley.

[sonotme_9FedriqSama]

Ah, I think Priscilla has some sensing skills that Galatea doesn't. Priscilla was able to sense that Clare was powerful. Galatea sees her yoki as tiny. In another thread, I speculated that it is because Priscilla and Miria can sense Yokiquality while most characters including Galatea see Yokisize.

Miata can do the same by smelling like a dog

[King Lycan]

I really hope Ritful and Dauf Don't die .. we have lost enough Abyssal ones :(

[pigoz]

Anyone noticed the similarity?

http://i39.tinypic.com/29zzmoh.jpg

[King Lycan]

^^
That's What Its Based off of :p

[zato_1one]

I think Clare survive because that's one of Raphaella's will. She want Clare to carry on her memory/emotion and live on. That's why Clare's life is spared.

[yezhanquan]

Yeah. The statues were the first thing that came to my mind. Still, that thing isn't going to be very friendly when it starts moving.

[Gooral]

I think Clare survive because that's one of Raphaella's will. She want Clare to carry on her memory/emotion and live on. That's why Clare's life is spared.
I don't think that Rafaela's will would be enough for Clare to survive. Either she had the strength to survive Raciella's awakening (which is my guess) or she was temporarily absorbed by two-headed monster and was protected by it.

[Throne Invader]

Clare's got alot of people counting on her now. She's carrying the wills of so many Claymores.

[Stream]

Fun fact: As of right now, Clare knows what happened to Irene. http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/959/rubelgp2.png

[zato_1one]

She looks more like being absorb instead of being crushed due to massive amount of Raciella's mass. That's why I think she is spared. But if Clare couldn't gain her consciousness then she might really die. :uhoh:

[Gooral]

I'm thinking that maybe the fight with Rafaela was a requirement for Clare to survive Raciella's awakening. If she lost she would be crushed by this new being.

[MisterJB]

1) Riful's "awww your so caring" look when Dauf expresses his fear of Riful getting killed fighting Raciella,

Cool, Riful is gaining feelings.
And we all know what happens when monsters get too sentimental in Claymore.:D

[MalakTawus]

I think that Claire's body was completely fused with Raciela,so in a sense her body was really destroyed during Raciella's awakening,it's just that Claire's consciousness was too powerful for Raciella to absorb,so she was able to re-construct her body with her "mind".
This will explain why her clothes are as good as new.....

and btw Miria isn't a great sensor at all.....

[haegar]

na, I'd rather say their bodies somehow integrated like they did on a mental level, and then sorted each other out again and seperated. After all, Clare got theresa in her body. I don't see that part of her being destroyed so easily.

But the nude scene really, really, makes me wanna see more. ....:D

nono, not wat you think.... I wanna see her from the front, I guess as some said, her stomach wound from the implantation procedure might really be gone now I think....

[Solace]

I was wondering. Could the AEs beat Priscilla?

No. Priscilla regens at a faster rate than even the AE's do. If you read the extra chapter where Isley finds Priscilla, when they are fighting she regens parts in literally the blink of an eye. Isley doesn't even detect it until it is too late and she destroys half of his body.

Anyway, my thoughts on this chapter.

1. The scene of Clare emerging as a part of the new AB and the shape of the new AB are both important. The sword rising from the AB is another important detail. I think the new AB is connected to Clare in more than just mind now. Clare retains her individuality but I think we've just seen how the author is going to give her the power up she needs to keep fighting with these stronger powers introduced (The twins, the AE's, Riful and Dauf, Priscilla, etc.).

2. Riful is either going to own or be owned. She's so far been incredibly cunning, and she hasn't released either. Plus, Isley didn't have help like Riful does in the form of Dauf. There might even be some "enemy of my enemy" deal striking since the Ghosts are not strong enough to handle all these big powers. Helping Riful might be the lesser of two evils in this scenario.

3. This will be the fight that shows if Alicia and Beth can handle a real Awakened. I doubt the AE's will last long when Riful gets serious, and Riful is smart enough to see the weak link in the twins and exploit it. Or more humorously, figures out how to turn the AE's on their masters. :heh:

[haegar]

Or more humorously, figures out how to turn the AE's on their masters. :heh:

now that would certainly be fun ;)

as for the deal stiking between Riful and the ghosts, hm I dunno, now that Raciella is introduced as she is, my guess would be that if the ghost or Clare need assistance Yagi set things up so that Raciella can help, whereas on the other hand, he set Riful up as being seriously pissed of about Clare's meddling...

although of course once Riful gets out of that fight (she will, you'll see, - I admit I doubted her, but I changed my mind with this chapter) with half her ribbons missing and Duff cut to mincemeat by Alicia, she might be smart enough to forget her grudges :D

what you said about the sword, I guess it might have future significance, but it might just as well simply have been a kind of "symbol" emphasizing clare kept her "human" claymore mind - remember how it's often shown that the claymores abandon their swords when thy loose it (ophelia i.e.) So now she comes out of that mess, and there is the sword. It might also have been connected to Raciella's body "enacting" Raphaella's last order to clare, "stay yourself" thus handing her the sword.

Although the more I think of it.... it eerily reminds you of arthur, exalibur and the stone... only the worthy can pull out the sword... anybody else would have been obliterated in such close proximity to awakening raciella, ... and clare not only survives but literally pulls her sword out of that... hmmm might really signify she got a decisive powerup or that with the mental input from Raphaella, she now really is "ready to fight" ...

[willyvereb]

Yeah...I sure hope that Riful survives that "sure kill scenario". She's cornered by the AE, going to be attacked by the Twins, a big F@king monster(Raciella) blocks the escape route and almost every Ghosts are around.Maybe Riful is less intelligent than Easley, but she's puts her survival on the top priority and the master of escaping.

I don't think Claire has any sort of link with Raciella from now on. Rafaela's conciousness left the body and partly transfered into Claire.
Claire's position as "walking grave"(she literaly contains Teresa,Irene and Rafaela+ Flora symbolically) strenghtened to me. I bet she'll even get something from Priscilla and Miria too in the end.

[Gooral]

(...)

Although the more I think of it.... it eerily reminds you of arthur, exalibur and the stone... only the worthy can pull out the sword... anybody else would have been obliterated in such close proximity to awakening raciella, ... and clare not only survives but literally pulls her sword out of that... hmmm might really signify she got a decisive powerup or that with the mental input from Raphaella, she now really is "ready to fight" ...
That's what I meant when I wrote "the fight with Rafaela was a requirement for Clare to survive Raciella's awakening (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=2491332#post2491332)".

[ZeroSama]

So Priscilla is still the most powerfull? Raki really is a lucky bugger.

Hopefully Yagi doesn't troll us all by having Raciella own the Ghosts and whoevers left from from the black ones&AE vs Riful&Dauf showdown, only for Raki to show up and yell "Priscilla. I choose you!" in his best Ash ketchum voice and save the day:uhoh:......

Actually that'd be hilarious:heh:.

[MisterJB]

although of course once Riful gets out of that fight (she will, you'll see, - I admit I doubted her, but I changed my mind with this chapter) with half her ribbons missing and Duff cut to mincemeat by Alicia, she might be smart enough to forget her grudges :D

Riful is not the one who needs to forget grudges, dude. Quite frankly, I don't see Miria or Clare ever doing a deal with the Devil.

Clare won't just easily forget what Riful did to Jean and her companions and that Dauf smashed her legs once.

Miria will not make a deal with an AO that has the bad habit of torturing and Awakening her so-called "friends". Riful can't be trusted.

Raciella helping Clare is much more probable and even that seems almost impossible.

[Throne Invader]

I for one am hoping that the next chapter will also show us Riful and Alicia's fight.

[little_angel]

1. The scene of Clare emerging as a part of the new AB and the shape of the new AB are both important. The sword rising from the AB is another important detail. I think the new AB is connected to Clare in more than just mind now. Clare retains her individuality but I think we've just seen how the author is going to give her the power up she needs to keep fighting with these stronger powers introduced (The twins, the AE's, Riful and Dauf, Priscilla, etc.).

2. Riful is either going to own or be owned. She's so far been incredibly cunning, and she hasn't released either. Plus, Isley didn't have help like Riful does in the form of Dauf. There might even be some "enemy of my enemy" deal striking since the Ghosts are not strong enough to handle all these big powers. Helping Riful might be the lesser of two evils in this scenario.

3. This will be the fight that shows if Alicia and Beth can handle a real Awakened. I doubt the AE's will last long when Riful gets serious, and Riful is smart enough to see the weak link in the twins and exploit it. Or more humorously, figures out how to turn the AE's on their masters. :heh:

well the next chapter we will see what is the real power for Rufil and Alicia because we dont know what is Rufil's true power or Alicia's ..

AF will die fast as we can see Rufil is capable of killing them faster than Isley .. and Daff will help her but i think next chapter he will die as a result we will see Rufil's full power ...

Clare-Raciella's connection will be clear i guess next chapter ..

but like u said Clare retains her individuality but I think we've just seen how the author is going to give her the power up she needs to keep fighting with these stronger powers introduced (The twins, the AE's, Riful and Dauf, Priscilla, etc.).

i think she will have enough power 2 defeat AOs but not enough power 2 defeat Racilla .. but i think this isnt that important because they will be like allies or something like this ..

[haegar]

That's what I meant when I wrote "the fight with Rafaela was a requirement for Clare to survive Raciella's awakening (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=2491332#post2491332)".

hey, killer avatar by the way. serenity 4 life! river 4 president !!! :D

@ mr.JB: of course you're right ;) "sticking rods into people I have ties with doesn't sit well with me", would be clare's reply I guess (taking the phrase from the translation I read of the rabona agatha fight :D)


edit: for those who're interested , english translations are somewhere out there ...

[Shiek927]

It seems like Raki and Priscilla are gonna end up being the ones that come in at the end and clean up the mess thats about to happen. On that map in chapter 92 they were closest to the action,

I wouldn't trust that map if I were you. I WANT too, but it's too messed up - Alicia and Beth clearly weren't in Staff at the time, thank god, and they drew Helen with both of her eyes at the time. Ignore it.

[MalakTawus]

na, I'd rather say their bodies somehow integrated like they did on a mental level, and then sorted eacht other out again and seperated. After all, Clare got theresa in her body. I don't see that part of her being destroyed so easily.

But the nude scene really, really, makes me wanna see more. ....:D

nono, not wat you think.... I wanna see her from the front, I guess as some said, her stomach wound from the implantation prcedure mgith really be gone now I think....

So can you explain why her clothes are perfectly fine?Do you think that while Claire was speaking with Raph in her "mind-world" she was undressing herself in the real world?This makes no sense at all.
I think it's a lot more belivable the fusion-of-the-body-theory.

[SagaraSouske]

Catching stealhed opponents who are running away is very different from killing 11 stealthed opponents confronting you directly.

Although it is possible that over the course of several years they would be able to wear her down like Isley.

Well if you consider they will scatter and run after 6 down, it is like trying to catch 5 stealthed opponents who are running away.

[MisterJB]

I don't think the ZACS will ever be able to kill Riful. Riful can attack with 20 or more attacks at once. If the ZACS becomes unable to move they are as good as dead. Riful Ab form also makes it more difficult for the ZACS to get to her. OK, a combined coordinated attack might bring her down.


Isley could launch 16 homing arrows at once and they still killed him. With time, those things could probrably kill anything.

[haegar]

So can you explain why her clothes are perfectly fine?Do you think that while Claire was speaking with Raph in her "mind-world" she was undressing herself in the real world?This makes no sense at all.
I think it's a lot more belivable the fusion-of-the-body-theory.

where was the difference between body fusion and body integration again?!? :D

uh nevermind

"she's got her clothes so there must be some microbiologicalchemicalmysthical pseudological explanation for it - like how the clothes grew out of thin air and the flesh of an abysaal twin goddess.. by some kind of cold fusion :D"


sounds nice...

oh... wait.... you forgot.... one problem

the clothes that got ripped got ripped in THE MIND WORLD.... sooo ......I guess.... as long as Yagi did not show her REAL clothes get ripped... and since he can't have her running around naked ALL the time, he might have been convenient enough to imply that her real clothes somehow managed to survive? attatched to her claymore... I mean otherwise, what is next, a living breathing spandex suit for clare, like in crysis game? intelligent body armor made of an abyssal being....

:heh:

[xzzx]

You got a point. It's awesome.

I can't stop laugh.

[Red-Haired_Shanks]

the clothes that got ripped got ripped in THE MIND WORLD.... sooo ......I guess.... as long as Yagi did not show her REAL clothes get ripped... and since he can't have her running around naked ALL the time, he might have been convenient enough to imply that her real clothes somehow managed to survive? attatched to her claymore... I mean otherwise, what is next, a living breathing spandex suit for clare, like in crysis game? intelligent body armor made of an abyssal being....

:heh:


Well...
Having her running around naked wouldn't be a bad idea

[haegar]

yeah well sry I got carried away a bit. I didn't want to troll him like that - after all he's got a point too, it IS strange the clothes survived. But perhaps in this case there ain't quite so much to it :D

having her run around naked all the time would be aesthetical, but not the claymore as I grew to know and love it :D

[Gangsta Spanksta]

I think that Claire's body was completely fused with Raciela,so in a sense her body was really destroyed during Raciella's awakening,it's just that Claire's consciousness was too powerful for Raciella to absorb,so she was able to re-construct her body with her "mind".
This will explain why her clothes are as good as new.....

and btw Miria isn't a great sensor at all.....

Clare body was completely fused with Raciella's, and if she would've lost the battle of the minds with Rafaela, she wouldn't have had a mind to separate herself from Raciella. The proof is in the art; it clearly shows that her body is connected to Raciella.

Now this causes issues that I don't have an answer for yet. For instance, is the Clare that emerged from Raciella, the same flesh that merged with her, or did she reform herself out of another location from Raciella body. The later, sort of ruins the romantic view that Clare is the flesh and blood of teresa, the right arm of Irene. But either way, the fact remains that Clare was part of an awakened body, and seperated herself. I hope she emerged from Raciella from the point she merged with her, and that she is still the flesh and blood of Teresa, and still has Irene's right arm, and now a bit of Raciella as well. Now if Clare is a half awakened, again, or if she is something else, remains to be seen.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

BTW, if I were Riful, I might try to go over to where Raciella is, to see if I can get Alicia and Beth and the ZACS to follow and then escape in the Chaos.

[haegar]

taking it from her last remark on how she's gonna enjoy slicing up those resilient feeders I'm not so sure. She might arrive at that reasoning if things go bad for her, but for starters I think she's gonna shred the remaining ZACS for sport and aggression-venting therapy :D

besides, she has known about alicia since the witches maw arc's end... and it seems she already understood back then "what" exactly alicia is, that she can awaken... so I wouldn't be surprised if she thought about how to tackle her ...

[Anima]

What if Clare has control over Raciella? Rafaela entrusted her with everything!
Imagine Clare standing and pointing at Riful screaming "Attack!" :heh:

[Cyclone]

About Clare's clothes and why they came off - you guys do realize that while Clare's and Raphaela's minds were deep in negotiations, that Luciella, who's AB side is desire incarnate, was unaccounted for. Perhaps Luciella was just having a bit of fun...

Anyways, the way I understand the whole scene of Clare been tossed out really starts with the page with nothing but text on it. The key thing to notice is that it's a dialog - not a monologue. "Who are " "I am Clare". Someone is talking to Clare trying to wake her - there are only 3 possibilities with Raphaella being the most likely (Luciella and Teresa being the other 2 outside chances).

Thus I see the whole Clare scene as Raphaela returning Clare to the outside world and giving back her sword and clothes (which, aside from my joke above, I can't explain why the clothes are undamaged and not on Clare [other than Yagi is a good man]). Clare's words seem to support this - returning Clare and her things to the world was Raphaela's last will (p.12).

[Goofus Maximus]

Clare body was completely fused with Raciella's, and if she would've lost the battle of the minds with Rafaela, she wouldn't have had a mind to separate herself from Raciella. The proof is in the art; it clearly shows that her body is connected to Raciella.

Now this causes issues that I don't have an answer for yet. For instance, is the Clare that emerged from Raciella, the same flesh that merged with her, or did she reform herself out of another location from Raciella body. The later, sort of ruins the romantic view that Clare is the flesh and blood of teresa, the right arm of Irene. But either way, the fact remains that Clare was part of an awakened body, and seperated herself. I hope she emerged from Raciella from the point she merged with her, and that she is still the flesh and blood of Teresa, and still has Irene's right arm, and now a bit of Raciella as well. Now if Clare is a half awakened, again, or if she is something else, remains to be seen.

I think Clare's mind and body were fused with Raciella's, as well. The panel just before Clare emerges hints at this, as Clare basically has to reassert her self identity from that of the Awakened Being, and "pull herself together" so to speak. In the emergence panel, I contend that she isn't so much "emerging" from inside the AB, so much as she's "reconstituting" herself from the flesh of the AB. The different noise and look when the sword and cloak were expelled corroborates this, as does the fact that Clare emerges naked instead of clothed. As for Cyclone's point, above, I think it is a monologue, with the "who are you?" being a case of a person speaking to themselves in the third person. I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that the AB is soul-linked to Clare now, though with all the hints of "bringing despair to the world", I can believe this is NOT the case, as well! :)

Also, having read the subtitled version now, I think Renee is dead, and Riful's monologue was spoken over what was left after she caught Renee. I'm less certain of this theory however, since I saw no "smoking gun" to confirm this or not. But Riful's speech seemed to talk about Renee in the past tense, with a distinct "I pity da foo'!" tone.

[camilla]

And in effect, when Clare was asked who she was, she didn't add the "the blood and flesh of Teresa, Irene's right arm" part.

[haegar]

And in effect, when Clare was asked who she was, she didn't add the "the blood and flesh of Teresa, Irene's right arm" part.

while that is indeed true, I still don't believe yagi would sacrifice that part of her character for raciella...

geez if he does chapters like this he should rather bring them out every 2 months and do a double feature ... this month's wait's gonna get worse then last :D

[Gangsta Spanksta]

@Cyclone: Clare is naked because she had become awakened flesh, and moved around in the insides of Raciella. The clothes and sword did not become part of Clare, so they did not end up in the same location as Clare.

GM: We pretty much agree on the Clare thing. As for the Rene thing, it is a possibility that Rene is dead, but she has knowledge about Raki and made an oath to tell Clare. Besides, she looked down at the rank #47, and thus has to witness Clare's awesomeness to know she is wrong. :D Also, be careful, the past tense and such, that maybe up to the translator. Ask Cyclone about the nuances of the Japanese language. I dunno if Kanji for instances tells you the tenses of things.

[mchau]

Clare body was completely fused with Raciella's, and if she would've lost the battle of the minds with Rafaela, she wouldn't have had a mind to separate herself from Raciella. The proof is in the art; it clearly shows that her body is connected to Raciella.

Now this causes issues that I don't have an answer for yet. For instance, is the Clare that emerged from Raciella, the same flesh that merged with her, or did she reform herself out of another location from Raciella body. The later, sort of ruins the romantic view that Clare is the flesh and blood of teresa, the right arm of Irene. But either way, the fact remains that Clare was part of an awakened body, and seperated herself. I hope she emerged from Raciella from the point she merged with her, and that she is still the flesh and blood of Teresa, and still has Irene's right arm, and now a bit of Raciella as well. Now if Clare is a half awakened, again, or if she is something else, remains to be seen.

The awakened form Raciela looks exactly like statue of Teresa & Claire from that town, I didnt see anyone mention it so far Is that just a coincidence that somehow the two sisters combined awakening took form of something that has been mentioned n talked about in manga earlier, this must be a way of author connecting her to Claire at some psychological lvl. I am 80% positive that the brains of both Claire and Raciela will have some connection. :D

[haegar]

WELL IF YOU DIDNT SEE ANYONE MENTION IT SOFAR IT MUST BE BECAUSE WE TALKED ABOUT IT T WITHOUT BOLD TYPE OR CAPS - AND ONLY EVERY SECOND OF THE LAST TWENTY PAGES OR SO :D

good ovservation though :heh:

[MalakTawus]

where was the difference between body fusion and body integration again?!? :D

uh nevermind

"she's got her clothes so there must be some microbiologicalchemicalmysthical pseudological explanation for it - like how the clothes grew out of thin air and the flesh of an abysaal twin goddess.. by some kind of cold fusion :D"


sounds nice...

oh... wait.... you forgot.... one problem

the clothes that got ripped got ripped in THE MIND WORLD.... sooo ......I guess.... as long as Yagi did not show her REAL clothes get ripped... and since he can't have her running around naked ALL the time, he might have been convenient enough to imply that her real clothes somehow managed to survive? attatched to her claymore... I mean otherwise, what is next, a living breathing spandex suit for clare, like in crysis game? intelligent body armor made of an abyssal being....

:heh:

You completely missed my point......
and i know that the clothes that got ripped were the ones in the mind world,thanx......

[MalakTawus]

Clare body was completely fused with Raciella's, and if she would've lost the battle of the minds with Rafaela, she wouldn't have had a mind to separate herself from Raciella. The proof is in the art; it clearly shows that her body is connected to Raciella.

Now this causes issues that I don't have an answer for yet. For instance, is the Clare that emerged from Raciella, the same flesh that merged with her, or did she reform herself out of another location from Raciella body. The later, sort of ruins the romantic view that Clare is the flesh and blood of teresa, the right arm of Irene. But either way, the fact remains that Clare was part of an awakened body, and seperated herself. I hope she emerged from Raciella from the point she merged with her, and that she is still the flesh and blood of Teresa, and still has Irene's right arm, and now a bit of Raciella as well. Now if Clare is a half awakened, again, or if she is something else, remains to be seen.

I totally agree.
I just think that when she reconstructed her body she used exactly her original fused flesh....

[camilla]

while that is indeed true, I still don't believe yagi would sacrifice that part of her character for raciella...

Yagi would never do such a thing. Clare omitting that essential part indicates how initially confused she was.

[haegar]

You completely missed my point......
and i know that the clothes that got ripped were the ones in the mind world,thanx......

No nono you got it the wrong way xD

You missed my point a page back, and since you did so, I "choose" to miss yours and instead started picking on the clothes which imho are a minor detail with regard to that question but offered some fun with spandex suits anyways :p

look, in the first place you said, "fusion occured, clare's body and the theresa parts got destroyed, then clar reassebled herself"

I did not contest that fusion idea in general, but i labeled it "integration" (my take on the scene) to point to a difference in detail in my position:

fusion (with that notion of complete destruction) I imagine like getting "beamed up" in enterprise: clare got disassebled to the molecular level, molecules merged with raciellas, and then out of the mass of molecules of both on body forms raciella, and another clare. that version, I contest.

I thought of it as integration, like their bodies do merge (as you can see in the panel where some tendrils of Raciellas flesh are connectedd to clare's hands) so some parts of both their bodies change structure and merge, but I don't see clare's body getting completely destroyed in that, there's the theresa part in her that doesn't fit with that imho.

cause if it went down the way you said, it would mean that clare having a part of theresa and of irene within her, simply got "written out" and substituted by clare having raciella in her. and imho that makes no sense in terms of where the story comes from and where it's going.

So I'd rather argue that while parts of clare's body lost integrity and merged with raciella, she did not dissolve completley, thus didn't have to re-assemble completly but just to some part. so rather Raciella got added to the "mix" that makes up clare, (and mind within that mix, the parts that are the REAL clare still are the biggest piece of the cake) whereas in your interpretation as I understood it, clare and raciella got mixed 50-50 due to that complete fusion...

so much on missing the point ^^

[haegar]

I just think that when she reconstructed her body she used exactly her original fused flesh....

damn! than I DID miss your point :D

[Gangsta Spanksta]

I pretty much have a similar view to Haegar, though Clare probably did move around inside of Raciella enough to lose her clothes and sword. The big question though is: what is Clare now? Her flesh had awakened, but then again, Jean was fully awakened in body. It could be that Yagi is telling us something by making Clare be dressed only in cloak like Jean after this fusion.

[Sleepy Speculator]

man this board moves way to fast for me when i only have limited internet access...

but i gotta say, what i got from Clare having been shown 'physically' merged with Raciella, is that maybe it doesn't really matter what happens to the body so long as the physical core of the claymore stays the same. Deneve comments on sensing Clare inside Raciella, therefore showing that Clare still had a distinct signature... It wasn't a matter of mix and seperate.

I'm starting to think this is why the claymores can regenerate. The existence of the body is almost a superflous extension to what a yoma actually is. Awakening changes the nature of the core however...

[haegar]

man sleepy your signature is awesome, now I know what's been buggin me the last hour.... more coffee needed :D

cool idea on the yoma nature! so do I get that right if I take it that would imply the origin of a Yoma might rather be a "spiritual" creature, like a demon bound in an human body, rather than some supernatural "physical" predator? ...

[Cyclone]

I personally don't buy your assertions that Clare was fused at all. Afterall, I don't believe her sword was decomposed into atoms and reassembled, why should I believe the same of Clare?
I see no reason to believe she was simply not regurgitated.
Afterall, the only time we have seen someone reconstitued is with Ophelia, and that was a stretchy king of thing, not this emerging out of sticky noodles type of thing.

[haegar]

well, there is the fact that in the panel the tendrils from raphaella go into and under her skin so there's grounds for the notion that something from Raph went to her. As for her herself dissolving whether completely or as I argued partially, I myself took the notion from (probably) raph's last words " don't get devoured"

I don't see the sword doing anything anyways, since it was stated the claymores are from some superalloy not from the island and pretty much indestructible, even to ABs and Abyssals....so my take on the sword is that it is no reference for what happend to clare since nothin happens to it by default ...

edit: I think it depends on how you read the panel's details:
look at this for instance: http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2491529&postcount=9762
the way its colored I'd read it as Raciella parts clinging to clare, which implies nothing about clare being dis and re assembled...

however: without the color, look at the arrows I drew in, it looks as if the tendrils sort of "slither" and "slide" along towards calre's body... which is slowly being constructed by the tendrils coiling and twisting together into a shape. You can see that clearly on both hands/arms...
http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/5391/assembly.png

although that entirley rises and falls with the "direction" you read the tendrils in, it might just as well be that they were attached to clare's hands and are "retreating" (reverse arrows)

[Sleepy Speculator]

If i could point to an example of what constitutes being part of something then i'd use Agatha's hair as an example. Her little fake fan service body (yay for redheads) sat on top of her monstrous bipedal body part and was connecte by the hair which i have to say looks very similar to how Clare was shown linked in this chapter. Also how Rafealla and Luciella looked in their freaky coffee table form.

1.Yet we also know Agatha had a 'weak point' a 'core' if you will that before she decided to hide it better was actually her hair (talk about vanity). And whilst she let the soldiers chop her head off for a laugh it was Clarice's single attack that nearly ended it all in one very surprising go.

2.Deneve mentioned sensing of Clare's yoki, whereas Rafealla and Luciella's yoki was also indistinguishable to the extent that Renee made comments about it being a single entity.

3.Ophelia said that she would concentrate all that made her human in her tail, and lo and behold the killing blow was through the claymore abdomen. Going so far as to warn Clare that she'd still regenerate.

4.Clare's clothes were expelled from the awakened body untorn, and apparently not even undone. I'd assume from that, that Clare's body mass became much less than a human body, yet remained distinct enough to reconstitute itself.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/3221/goddessclare.jpg (http://img117.imageshack.us/i/goddessclare.jpg/)

I think in that picture it is clear that Clare is connected to Raciella. The veins coming out of her limbs are part of Raciella, and even the shading of skin go from Raciella's color, to an inbetween, to Clare's skintone there.

As for why Clare merged and the sword did not. Well, clare is a living being, something organic like Raciella, whereas a sword is metal. I guess the leather is organic material too, but Clare has yoki in her flesh. It is just easier to conceptualize the merger of living being with living being, than living being and a non-living object. In fact, Raciella has prior history of that kind of merger, since the sisters were merging, and it was an AB merging with a Claymore, and this too is an AB merging with a Claymore.

Edit: Thanks for giving me an excuse to post this. :heh:

[Cyclone]

well, there is the fact that in the panel the tendrils from raphaella go into and under her skin so there's grounds for the notion that something from Raph went to her. As for her herself dissolving whether completely or as I argued partially, I myself took the notion from (probably) raph's last words " don't get devoured"

That does not necessarily show tendrils going under the skin. For example, consider if the tendrils are a bit viscous. The further you pull the object out of the tendrils, the thinner they get until they dissolve completely. It's a much simpler explanation than this Clare dissolved stuff, anyways.

[haegar]

true xD but why simple, if you can go for complicated :D

[Gangsta Spanksta]

That does not necessarily show tendrils going under the skin. For example, consider if the tendrils are a bit viscous. The further you pull the object out of the tendrils, the thinner they get until they dissolve completely. It's a much simpler explanation than this Clare dissolved stuff, anyways.

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/838/carm.jpg (http://img27.imageshack.us/i/carm.jpg/)

Notice that there is no black line at the tip of that vein/tendril? That means that it goes directly into Clare's body. If it was a tendril just touching her skin it would be outlined as such.

[Cyclone]

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/838/carm.jpg (http://img27.imageshack.us/i/carm.jpg/)

Notice that there is no black line at the tip of that vein/tendril? That means that it goes directly into Clare's body. If it was a tendril just touching her skin it would be outlined as such.

No - for all we know Clare is covered from head to toe in a thin layer layer of slime. Just becuase there is no line does not mean the tendril goes inside - just that it's really really thin at that point

[Gangsta Spanksta]

No - for all we know Clare is covered from head to toe in a thin layer layer of slime. Just becuase there is no line does not mean the tendril goes inside - just that it's really really thin at that point

Dunno, the tendril does have a lot of width at that point, so while it is possible, I don't see it being as extra thin. Besides, Clare merging with Raciella explains why she is naked. You yourself said that you have not come up with another explanation for the nakedness, besides that Yagi is a good man. I think I prefer this branch of speculation, since everything starts to fit if you follow it.

[haegar]

somebody also mentioned the fact that she only had her cloak afterwards and compared it to jean in the witch maw's arc, which would also tie in with the "body awakening" which would be a prerequisite for the merging, whether full merge or partial ....

[Gangsta Spanksta]

I also think that if Clare had been slimed, that we would see the liquid on her body. In Rabona, when it rained, we saw the water on Clare's face.

[haegar]

and than there is the fact that naked AND greased in slime just might be too much fanservice :D

[Arturro]

When I read that chapter for a first time I was looking for plot, action and a little fanservice :). Later I've reread chapter 93 looking only for symbolic references; it was very interesting lecture...

A few people already mentioned 2 obvious symbols in that chapter: twing goddess statue and Excalibur, I'll mention those later.

Lets look at page 10 (onemanga version). What we see? Naked Clare for underaged fans? Recompilation of Clare from awakened one flesh?
I see a birth
Clare is reborn. Not as a patched entity, created from parts of Teresa, Irene, Raphaela and a little scared girl. She is herself, it's both a childbirth (Clare as a new person) and entering adulthood. Adultbirth. It resembles myth of birht of Venus, a goddes which was born from sea as an adult. Look at page 9, Clare describes herself as "Clare, former number 47 of the Organisation". Not as "flesh of Theresa, arm of Irene" or something simmilar, she describes herself by her name and actions, not relations to other people.

Page 11. We see emerging Claymore. It looks like Excalibur emerging from waters of lake; Raphaela takes here a role of Lady of the Lake.

Page 14-15 we see a new Abbyssal One in its full form, it of course resembles Twin Goddesses statue. Look at page 16, we see it from distance, it's large, but it looks like one of religious statues people tends to build on peaks of mountains. Statue of Jesus in Rio de Janeiro is probably most know. Looking at it I've feeling that it's not an Abbyssal One, Awakened Beind or something like that. It is a living statue of Raphaelas mourn over her deceased sister. Priscilla words about it's feeling fit that interpretation.

Because of above I expect that another entity will be delivered by that statue soon. A reborn Luciella, most probably as a child, without most of her memories. Statue of Twins should deliver two girls/daugthers.
Giving ghost such powerfull ally as Raciella is anticlimatic, with her under Clares control Ghost would be able to smash their enemies (maybe not Priscilla) with ease. But Luciella as a young girl, under Clare care, will not destroy balance too much. Also it will force Clare to recognize, that awakened beings are a new personalites, and could be turned back into humans. Just like Raki is changing Priscilla. I still have hopes for happy monster family (Raki + Clare as parents, Priscilla and Luciella as daughters, and maybe Miata too) :).

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Nice theory, but I don't want the romanticism of Clare being the flesh and blood of Teresa to be broken. I like the notion that Clare became Teresa's actual daughter rather than just being adopted, because Clare is half Teresa now. So the romantic in me has to go with the speculation that Clare body became part of Raciella, and moved around a bit, but stayed relatively together for Clare to form back out of. I don't want to have the links to teresa and irene destroyed.

[Cyclone]

Dunno, the tendril does have a lot of width at that point, so while it is possible, I don't see it being as extra thin. Besides, Clare merging with Raciella explains why she is naked. You yourself said that you have not come up with another explanation for the nakedness, besides that Yagi is a good man. I think I prefer this branch of speculation, since everything starts to fit if you follow it.

We shall see I guess. I'm not dismissing the idea she has been reconsituted mind you, but I am very reluctant to treat it as dogma just yet.

[dweller of the deep]

Because of above I expect that another entity will be delivered by that statue soon. A reborn Luciella, most probably as a child, without most of her memories. Statue of Twins should deliver two girls/daugthers.
Giving ghost such powerfull ally as Raciella is anticlimatic, with her under Clares control Ghost would be able to smash their enemies (maybe not Priscilla) with ease. But Luciella as a young girl, under Clare care, will not destroy balance too much. Also it will force Clare to recognize, that awakened beings are a new personalites, and could be turned back into humans. Just like Raki is changing Priscilla. I still have hopes for happy monster family (Raki + Clare as parents, Priscilla and Luciella as daughters, and maybe Miata too) :).

I was into your interpretation until this last paragraph... I have really no idea of what will happen, but this has no logic whatsoever, especially the happy family thing :p

[Gangsta Spanksta]

We shall see I guess. I'm not dismissing the idea she has been reconsituted mind you, but I am very reluctant to treat it as dogma just yet.

:heh: You never know, especially with Yagi; people form theories here after each chapter all the time, and those theories only turn out true some of the time. :p

[SagaraSouske]

I agree with those saying that Clare was never fused but merely taken into Racilla flesh. Rafaela basically caused Clare to be spit out from Racilla.

As for Racilla, I don't think she will be an ally to the Ghost, or ally to anyone. To me both the title and Priscilla's words seem to indicate Racilla is a harbinger of destruction more then anything else and will kill Alica, Beth, AEs, Ritful, Ghost, or anyone basically.

[Shiek927]

I agree with those saying that Clare was never fused but merely taken into Racilla flesh. Rafaela basically caused Clare to be spit out from Racilla.

As for Racilla, I don't think she will be an ally to the Ghost, or ally to anyone. To me both the title and Priscilla's words seem to indicate Racilla is a harbinger of destruction more then anything else and will kill Alica, Beth, AEs, Ritful, Ghost, or anyone basically.

I don't know....I don't think Claymore will ever get that sort of "ultimate villain"; back in the early days when the anime was still fresh, the one person was usually thought like that was Priscilla and she's obviously not really holding that title anymore.

The way you describe Raciella makes her seem too malevolent and powerful and I don't think(except the bandits I guess) that their will ever be a character who is not, in some way, "gray".

I got more of the impression that Raciella was a tragic figure that didn't want to much of anything except death through Priscilla's words.

Arturro, I can understand how giving the Ghosts someone like Raciella would change the powerbalance far too much, especially if Priscilla eventually joins the group as well....but it would also be a bit anticlimatic if Raciella would just die without at least furfilling SOMETHING with her new life.

Originally I thought Raciella would join the Ghosts under Claire before moving onto the next stage, but the new idea of Claire actually briefly splitting with the Ghosts to find Raki with Raciella actually seems like a better theory.

[haegar]

was "harbinger of destruction" the cyclone approved tranlation? :D

cnet128 translates "disciples of demise" which sounds strange. Going by the title alone, what sagara says might happen, however, prissy's insights into the new beings mind make that highly questionable: if raciella has no craving for flesh, and no desire for life, why than should she have a desire to kill others?

besides, the title might just as well refer to Alicia, Beth and the Feeders who try to bring destruction to Riful, and ultimately to Raciella probably.


btw, check this out: http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/harbinger-of-doom.html

I don't know if "harbinger of doom" does work as a translation for the title. What I find interesting though, is that in one of the last paragraphs it is mentioned that the phrases meaning originates from SCOTLAND... perhaps another scotish inspiration? Anyways, if harbinger of *whatever* is meant like "pessimistic harbingers of doom who first decided that 'the end of the world is nigh'" as stated in that link I posted, it would merely reference a pessimistic attitude of "despair" - just like the one prissy attributes to raciella?!

maybe a bit farfetched ....

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Too lazy to go back, but I think it was mentioned that CNet128's Disciple should really be Appostle, like Sagara got from the chinese version. Don't think the second word changed.

[Methuselah]

Did anyone ever mentioned that Clare is hot in this chapter? Jeez == What vital information.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

;) Clare's fan club could always use more followers, so come join. :heh:

[Arturro]

I was into your interpretation until this last paragraph... I have really no idea of what will happen, but this has no logic whatsoever, especially the happy family thing :p

Maybe I should part that from rest of post, cause "happy family" is just my pure speculation/prediction of future events. First part is about how I see symbolism in last chapter.
IMO soon a new part of story will begin. First part was till Pieta, second probably will end with incoming large battle.
I don't believe in large fight between Clare and Priscilla as a culmination of Claymore manga. If I'm right Clare has to forgave Priscilla. To forgave her, Clare need to understand her better. Easiest way to understand Priscilla is to adopt another child Abbyssal. Raciella is a good candidate for adoption.

[dream-seeker]

If Clare was really absorbed by this new being, could it be only the 4 awakened limbs were reconstructed/reassembled? And Clare remains herself in body and mind.

Ah! What the heck. When warrior's regenerate their severed limbs, they apparently can remember the structure of their bones, the length and other details as long a one main intact organ is alive and functioning.

[rukori]

Does Riful's words means Renee is dead?

[Gangsta Spanksta]

:D Dunno, we have to ask Cyclone to explain the concept of tenses in Japanese, or sagara for that matter. But the manga scanlation could be misleading, in that it might be using past tense, when it shouldn't, from my guess.

[Korinov]

I don't think Renée is dead. Not still. Maybe she's quite a cripple now, but I'm certain she'll survive long enough to pass Clare her 'special message' :)

[rukori]

Yeah that would be nice.. I don't think Raki and Pricilla will just step forward to fight against the twod(twin goddess of despair) so maybe Renee will actually have a private talk with Clare before the destined meeting.

[MalakTawus]

It's true that in this manga you never (almost) know who is the "ultimate evil" 'cause most of the time it's just a matter of point of view.
Evil candidates:
Riful:she's obviously not a saint,but you could consider her a victim too.....and she isn't strong enought to qualify as "ultimate evil"
Priscilla:As she is now even if she is awakened she isn't evil at all!
If she loses her mind she obviously can qualify as Claire's greatest enemy.....but the fact that she is a victim doesn't change.
The org:At the moment sometimes they seem pure evil,but since we don't know the real situation in the mainland we can't be sure.......well, the fact that they are bastards is quite certain,we just don't know if they have at least a good excuse.
DoDs:???????
Raciella:...........at this point of the story she has the potential to be almost anything......

Conclusion:If i have to bet i'll go with the DoDs as "ultimate evil".......or maybe there won't be one.....

......Claymore is really a great manga!!!

[Ardha]

I really loved chapt.93 and everything that happened in it, i hope that maybe clare might become a spark for raciella to want to live again, I don't know I dont see it as an enemy although it is possible, whatever the case i hope yagi gives this new being a special path

And I have prayed since the day riful came on the scene that she makes it to the end, shes to cool to die..she's the first the loli that i've actually come to care about:love:

[haegar]

I
And I have prayed since the day riful came on the scene that she makes it to the end, shes to cool to die..she's the first the loli that i've actually come to care about:love:

Well, I have to admit I haven't quite arrived at careing about her yet, but this chapter definetly tought me not to underestimate her any longer :D

uh we're closing on 700 posts already :heh:

[Charmeya]

but still Rufil is stronger than Isley ..



I don't agree with that. I think, Isley was stronger.

Riful only has the Advantage that she seem to be a nearly undestructable Defense-Typ-Awakening.

However, if she is just sitting arround there like stupid, she will soon get ripped apart from the Abyss Feeders or Die when Alicia attacks her with the "Awakened-Tactic".

I really wonder if they are not stupid, those two. Dauf and Riful...

Everytime, only one of them is in his/her Awakened Form. What for a "clever" Plan is this...?

Riful should fast switch into her full Awakened Form again, otherwise she could die in the next five to ten Pictures =)

[MonsieurRosseau]

I thought the title was "Apostles of Death?"

[revan5]

Anybody notice that where Claire's scar should be appeared to be scar-free on page 11 (especially when compared with Miata's scar)?

Does anyone think this means that Claire's body is pretty much like that of Riful's (except she doesn't totally know it) or is it still closer to a regular claymore's body? Plus if Claire has lost her scar, does this mean she is pretty much "awakened" in all but the mental/hunger sense of the word?

[Fenrir_valindri]

Until we see full-frontal we really have no way of knowing.

My own personal theory is that the Partial-awakened's scars have shrunk, since they have come to close to fully awakening, and it is even possible for it to disappear entirely if cases like Jean's, were her body was fully awakened but she managed to revert back to her human form.

[haegar]

darn I can't remember in which chapter Miata's scar appeared. So far, I thought that the view of clare in #93 was inconclusive as to whether the scar was still there or not...

just about to go and get some sleep ... please be so kind a have that clarified so that I can read it at breakfast :D :D :D

[SagaraSouske]

The title is "ShuEn no ShiTou" "終焉の使徒"

ShuEn = The end
ShiTou = Apostle or Harbinger or Herald, the original definition is apostle of Christ. It can also be loosely translated as angel.

So literal translation would be "Apostle of The End"

[Ardha]

Well, I have to admit I haven't quite arrived at careing about her yet, but this chapter definetly tought me not to underestimate her any longer :D

True when I saw Riful it was love at first sight but then again I've always been drawn to the manipulative and slighty psychotic female characters in manga especially this one (Ophelia, Luciela and for some reason Agatha) :D but yeah I hope Riful messes those twins up...although I should probably prepare myself just in case :upset:

[Fenrir_valindri]

Miata's scar is never actually shown, none of the chapters so far have actually shown us what the scar looks like.

[MisterJB]

I think, Isley was stronger.



I agree. We can't use their figths against the AFs to compare the two AOs because there are crucial differences.


Isley was extremely wounded and tired. Riful is fresh.

The AFs were used to Isley and knew how to figth him. Riful is new and the AFs were not expecting tentacles.

Isley had been figthing the AFs for years. This is Riful's first enconter with them, the easiest.

Isley was completely alone. Riful has Dauf to help her.

And I doubt Isley was that wounded after his first figth with them.

[Double_friedman]

Considering her expression, I think Riful was really worried when Alicia and Beth arrived. Maybe she's aware of their power and that's why she was OMG!

We won't be able to tell if Riful is weaker than Isley for two reasons: first, she's usually hiding her real power, so only a qualified yoki reader could tell she's weaker than Isley (maybe Galatea), and second, she's going to die at the hands of the twins; in this point, we all know Alicia is more powerful than Luciella, if Isley had fought her, he would have been defeated -such as Riful will likely be- and we wouldn't be able to tell who's more powerful. So only, if by coincidence Riful survives (maybe running away or, unlikely, defeating Alicia) we'll have pure evidence she's stronger than Isley.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

@JB: :heh: Your Isley bias is really showing there. You also forget, as a reason of why you can't compare fight, that Isley fought the ZACS in Awakened form, while Riful fought the ZACS in human form.

There *is* one thing we learned. Abyssal Ones are very vulnerable in human form. Isley almost lost his head by a corkscrew attack by Helen. Riful had a good chunk of her head bitten off by a ZACS. Riful said that was the most damage she had ever received from anyone. Helen caused Isley a similar amount of damage. If it wasn't for Riful ribbon like body, she may have been dead, but she has a natural defense against head shots. Isley doesn't seem to have that defense, so such a hit on him could've been possibly more devastating. We also don't know if these ZACS have the memories of previous ZACS embedded into them.

[MisterJB]

Isley was already wounded when figthing against Helen. It doesn't count.

Anyway, people are talking like if Riful did something amazing in this chapter. We already knew the AFs wouldn't stand a chance because it's their first figth against her.

I was actually amazed and amused by the fact that she took so much damage. Of course, Riful doesn't have to protect her head like the other ABs.

I wonder if she will die if you smash her head completely.

[Korinov]

Rifl > Isley :)

[Gangsta Spanksta]

But as I pointed out, the human form is very vulnerable, especially to surprise attack. Isley took that kind of damage from Helen in human form. Again, there are just too many unknowns to compare the two fights. These ZACS may or may not be as powerful as the first batch Isley fought. Even if it is a different batch of ZACS than the first, they could be minus 1 battle experience the group that finished off Isley had.

[iLney]

Battle experience -1? Nah, their experience with Riful is zero. They adapted to fight Isley only. If you don't understand what I mean, again, play GuildWars :D (actually it should be called BuildWars right now).

The way the ZACs fought Isley is called "gimmick." Supposed that Isley is a gimmick himself, the highly specified gimmick used to beat him should render itself utterly useless against another gimmick, says Riful. Think Rock, Scissor, Paper :)

[Charmeya]

It's Funny. You talk about the Scars of Miria, Miata and Claire, but i've never seen them :3

[Arkham]

Good chapter!:) I'm glaad to see that goof-balln Helen get fired up :frustrated:

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Battle experience -1? Nah, their experience with Riful is zero. They adapted to fight Isley only. If you don't understand what I mean, again, play GuildWars :D (actually it should be called BuildWars right now).

The way the ZACs fought Isley is called "gimmick." Supposed that Isley is a gimmick himself, the highly specified gimmick used to beat him should render itself utterly useless against another gimmick, says Riful. Think Rock, Scissor, Paper :)

I don't know what playing Guildwars teaches a ZAC about things such as dodging. When Helen fought a zombie, it had sufficient experience to cut off her arm and take her eye. I don't see how that was Isley specific.

[MisterJB]

When Helen fought a zombie, it had sufficient experience to cut off her arm and take her eye. I don't see how that was Isley specific.

Because the difference between Isley and Helen is huge and something supossed to take out an AO, can easily kill someone like Helen.

Between Isley and Riful there is just a little margin so, adapting to their abilities is the key for the AFs to defeat them.

They were not used to tentacles, 6 of them got killed.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Because the difference between Isley and Helen is huge and something supossed to take out an AO, can easily kill someone like Helen.

Between Isley and Riful there is just a little margin so, adapting to their abilities is the key for the AFs to defeat them.

They were not used to tentacles, 6 of them got killed.

Isley arrows gain heat seek when he awakens. Riful is more ribbony when she awakens, and she could spin those ribbons around and become a kind of meat grinder in close range combat.

[Charmeya]

They were not used to tentacles, 6 of them got killed.


Tentacleporn 4tw :D

Riful should guard this Place in Order to avoid that the Organisation is taking the Remains and create new ones >_>

But she has a much more serious Problem right now. I think that Alicia is a much greater Treat than the Abyss Feeders...

[MisterJB]

Isley arrows gain heat seek when he awakens.

Not really. He just controls them in any way he feels like it. Remember what Luciela said.

[Shiek927]

Considering her expression, I think Riful was really worried when Alicia and Beth arrived. Maybe she's aware of their power and that's why she was OMG!


Probably has more to do with the fact that she recognizes them from before.

[iLney]

I don't know what playing Guildwars teaches a ZAC about things such as dodging. When Helen fought a zombie, it had sufficient experience to cut off her arm and take her eye. I don't see how that was Isley specific.

Aye, that is why GW was awesome. A ranger has a skill called Distract Shot (or so, I forgot) that can interrupt any other skills given that they have activation time.

Now Distracting Shot, if successfully interrupts one skill, disables it for 20s. Distracting Shot itself has a 10 s cool down. The skill has a activation time of 1/2 second.

Most of the skill needed interrupting has around 3/4 s or 1/4 s activation time. Then how the heck is Distracting Shot useful? Mad reflex? Nah. Experience + brain. That skill was, sometimes, considered overpowered. The reason is if you let a pro uses it, it's devastating considering a entire team of 8 can be wiped in about 10 s. If you give it to a noob, it's a joke.

Back to the ZACs, dodging a snail like Helen requires little experience, just like using Distracting Shot to interrupt a skill with 2 s activation time (actually if you can't do that. you should not play Ranger. For some others, the threshold is 1 1/2 s. While the snobs claim it to be 1s or even 3/4 s). Fighting Isley is like trying to interrupt a 1/4 s skill (Remember: Distracting Shot has an activation time of 1/2s + the time for the arrow to reach the target).

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Dunno why you apply the unrealistic rules of table top, or whatever GW is, to a work of fiction. Most game rules like that are stupefied -- simplified -- so that the human mind can understand them, and come up with rules like identifying breath weapons based on the color of a dragon, whereas traditionally both red and green dragons in lore breath fire. Such things may work to make a game more fun, but applying such rules to fiction is also applying limitations.

[Shiek927]

Dunno why you apply the unrealistic rules of table top, or whatever GW is, to a work of fiction. Most game rules like that are stupefied -- simplified -- so that the human mind can understand them, and come up with rules like identifying breath weapons based on the color of a dragon, whereas traditionally both red and green dragons in lore breath fire. Such things may work to make a game more fun, but applying such rules to fiction is also applying limitations.

Tell me about it; it's one of the big reasons I think the DS game was god awful and Claymore just can't be made into a game, at least without being creative.

It's not that it's not good enough, but it's just too different. With games, you got to take alot of measures for gameplay purposes and you can't do that without eliminating what makes Claymore unique and and special.

Instead of a side-scroller, they should do what Cyclone said: A PC game with a GTA open-world environment where you are able to talk to people to advance the story and walk from town to town, or even across the whole island if you feel like it. the DS and a Side-Scroller are just terrible ideas.

Be creative; maybe instead of being one of the characters, make your own Claymore and enter the war however you wish. Feel like Awakening? go ahead. Want to join a side besides the Org? go ahead. Be creative already game developers!

[iLney]

Dunno why you apply the unrealistic rules of table top, or whatever GW is, to a work of fiction. Most game rules like that are stupefied -- simplified -- so that the human mind can understand them, and come up with rules like identifying breath weapons based on the color of a dragon, whereas traditionally both red and green dragons in lore breath fire. Such things may work to make a game more fun, but applying such rules to fiction is also applying limitations.

Are you kidding me? GW is simple? The mechanics was elegant and complicated. Enough to made more than 95% of the players base not able to participate in competitive PvP and tournaments (used to award 100,000$ per month and worldwide tournaments, ah good old time) at all. Maybe the current Son of a BuildWars is, ( I don't care anymore btw) but not the old one. How to use that one skill needs a whole research project. You know, there are people who played the games for more than 2 years but is still a noob.

Now back to the ZACs, you just can't seem to accept the concept of gimmick experiences :)

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Are you kidding me? GW is simple? The mechanics was elegant and complicated. Enough to made more than 95% of the players base not able to participate in competitive PvP and tournaments (used to award 100,000$ per month and worldwide tournaments, ah good old time) at all. Maybe the current Son of a BuildWars is,
( I don't care anymore btw) but not the old one. How to use that one skill needs a whole research project. You know, there are people who played the games for more than 2 years but is still a noob.

Now back to the ZACs, you just can't seem to accept the concept of gimmick experiences :)

What is gimmick experiences, please? I don't even know what'cha talkin' about.

[iLney]

You adapt to fight one particular opponent nothing else.

[yezhanquan]

I play Guild Wars before, and yeah, the PvP is not easy.

On the topic, still think those dogs need to be burnt, on crushed under something so that they don't move.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

You adapt to fight one particular opponent nothing else.

And you think that is a real world concept. That ZACS can't learn, high speed object direct towards head means duck? I never said that the ZACS weren't adapting to fight Isley, but there are many things that are generalities and will be useful in any fight. Obviously, the zombie who took off helen's arm and punctured her eye was using some form of experience to protect itself from the threat Helen posed. I find it laughable, to think that ZACS that fought Isley, and who gained 7 years worth of experience, would gain no benefits when it came to fighting Riful.

[MisterJB]

ZACS that fought Isley, and who gained 7 years worth of experience, would gain no benefits when it came to fighting Riful.

they certainly gained a lot with speed and all but it's on the figthing style that they could not gain benefits.

For example, Isley when he fought them, we saw that for him to get the head, he would destroy the entire body. Riful is more precise, she just sends one tentacle to the head.

[Shiek927]

And you think that is a real world concept. That ZACS can't learn, high speed object direct towards head means duck? I never said that the ZACS weren't adapting to fight Isley, but there are many things that are generalities and will be useful in any fight. Obviously, the zombie who took off helen's arm and punctured her eye was using some form of experience to protect itself from the threat Helen posed. I find it laughable, to think that ZACS that fought Isley, and who gained 7 years worth of experience, would gain no benefits when it came to fighting Riful.

Well of course they will, they just haven't had that experience yet.

Taking some guesses, I think they'll harden their bodies so her tentacles can't pierce them or alter them so their in this sort of gelatenous form so they just pass right through, you need some imagination :heh:

With Priscilla, it's much easier, they'll grow wings.

[iLney]

And you think that is a real world concept. That ZACS can't learn, high speed object direct towards head means duck? I never said that the ZACS weren't adapting to fight Isley, but there are many things that are generalities and will be useful in any fight. Obviously, the zombie who took off helen's arm and punctured her eye was using some form of experience to protect itself from the threat Helen posed. I find it laughable, to think that ZACS that fought Isley, and who gained 7 years worth of experience, would gain no benefits when it came to fighting Riful.

You ignored my analogy again. See:


Back to the ZACs, dodging a snail like Helen requires little experience, just like using Distracting Shot to interrupt a skill with 2 s activation time (actually if you can't do that. you should not play Ranger. For some others, the threshold is 1 1/2 s. While the snobs claim it to be 1s or even 3/4 s). Fighting Isley is like trying to interrupt a 1/4 s skill (Remember: Distracting Shot has an activation time of 1/2s + the time for the arrow to reach the target).


Experience + gimmick gives you the ability to predict. In fact, great rangers in GW watched how their opponents played to learn their habits. The ZACs adapted to Isley's 100 year-plus-habit, which made them extremely useful against Isley. Now they fight Riful: back to trying to interrupt a 1/4s skill using 1/2s-plus-the-time-for-the-arrow-to-reach-the-target Distracting Shot. Theoretically, it's impossible. A new skill has new usage and the user has new habits. Yet in GW, you can see some dude interrupt a 1/4s skill while that skill is at 1/8 to 1/4s which makes it 1/32s, reflex?? Or luck? Ye, 4 times in a row in 100+ matches!

[Shiek927]

It's Funny. You talk about the Scars of Miria, Miata and Claire, but i've never seen them :3

Which is very weird all things considered.

Why HAVEN'T we seen the scars Claymores have by now? I really doubt it's even as grotesque as we're all imagining them.

My idea is that, for starters, the color isn't natural, probably some sort of putrid green or something; has to be to make the Bandits sick. Since we don't know how the operation itself works, their are probably incisions all over the body; whether many short ones or big long ones(probably this).

It just takes too much imagination which I think is weird because by now, we should know the full details of the operation and what a Claymore looks like, because I really doubt it's anything too ridiculous.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

You ignored my analogy again. See:



Experience + gimmick gives you the ability to predict. In fact, great rangers in GW watched how their opponents played to learn their habits. The ZACs adapted to Isley's 100 year-plus-habit, which made them extremely useful against Isley. Now they fight Riful: back to trying to interrupt a 1/4s skill using 1/2s-plus-the-time-for-the-arrow-to-reach-the-target Distracting Shot. Theoretically, it's impossible. A new skill has new usage and the user has new habits. Yet in GW, you can see some dude interrupt a 1/4s skill while that skill is at 1/8 to 1/4s which makes it 1/32s, reflex?? Or luck? Ye, 4 times in a row in 100+ matches!

I ignored it for a reason, because once you started talking about game mechanics it became meaningless, because Claymore is not based on game mechanics, and game mechanics are limitations to writing fiction. Anyway, I know all about combat system and such. I once developed a combat system for an open source remake of the old X-Com game. But despite how cool games might be when you play them, they have nothing to do with writing, or even what is logical, because they put limitations on what happens in the real world or even in a fantasy world. Like for example, way back in the day when I was playing Baulder Gate, out of boredom I decided to throw knives at a fully armored knight and killed him as such. That just means that AD&D for example is absurd. The same goes for most any game you play. You talk about 1/8 and 1/4 using such puny numbers under the denominator, because human minds can conceptualize suce puny numbers, instead of using a value in the denominator that is in the millions and closer to reality. Anyway, I don't dislike such games, but like I said they are stupefied rules whose purpose is fun, not realism.

[Charmeya]

For example, Isley when he fought them, we saw that for him to get the head, he would destroy the entire body. Riful is more precise, she just sends one tentacle to the head.


Ääh, MisterJB... ^^

Isley has "only" strong Weapons and Arms, right? So it's much more likely that he "can't" only destroy the Head. If he do, it's more Concidence than Aim.

He is to big and his Weapons, too. Riful has the Advantage of being able to send Long Range Tentacles out of her Hair with high Speed and she CAN aim nicely.

In Addition, she was in her Human Form, so aim should be more easy because her Targets are "bigger" and not so small when she is in her full Awakened Form :)

[Shiek927]

Ääh, MisterJB... ^^

Isley has "only" strong Weapons and Arms, right? So it's much more likely that he "can't" only destroy the Head. If he do, it's more Concidence than Aim.

He is to big and his Weapons, too. Riful has the Advantage of being able to send Long Range Tentacles out of her Hair with high Speed and she CAN aim nicely.

In Addition, she was in her Human Form, so aim should be more easy because her Targets are "bigger" and not so small when she is in her full Awakened Form :)

Actually it's backwards I think.

Isley if anything is the one who's long-range; with weaponry like a Bow, a Spear, a longsword etc. He's got a few close-range weapons like his big Claw, but all his weaponry is medium to long-range and about precision, like the knight he's trying to be.

Riful on the otherhand is much more on close-combat. As powerful as Isley's weapons are, their aren't very useful at close-range because they're all on precision, his arrows for example homing in and striking from long distances. Riful has complete manipulation of her own tentacles which allow her to strike heads much more easily and faster then Isley who has trouble; His weaponry is as big as he is, and like you said, it's near-impossible for him to strike the head without smashing the rest of the body, which isn't how you're supposed to kill them.

It's why Riful has so much more ease with the AE's, adaption and experience aside, their style of combat is more like her own which makes for a fight that really isn't all that dangerous to her, as long as she expects them(which she obviously didn't in what we saw in 93, as that's her first time).

I agree to a degree with Gangsta: human forms are much more vulnerable as the bulk of their power is in the Awakened form. I doubt smashing the head of Isley would have actually killed him as such weaknesses don't matter to them, he can no doubt move his organs and vitals as much as any other; the same with Riful, as she has no distinct physical weakspot.

She took damage from the AE no doubt, she said so herself, but had the AE chomped off her entire head, I doubt that would have killed her.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Come on Shieky, the weak spot for most things in Claymore is the head. Riful is one of the few exceptions, as we have three instances where someone took a headshot and didn't kill her. There is no sign that Isley is an exception to the rule, so it is more likely than not that the general rule of the head being his weak point is true. Isley is a pretty solid AB, unlike Riful and unlike Agatha. It is not that Riful is stronger, it is just the type of AB she is.

[yezhanquan]

Headshots were tried, but none actually took the darn thing off her neck.

[Shiek927]

Come on Shieky, the weak spot for most things in Claymore is the head. Riful is one of the few exceptions, as we have three instances where someone took a headshot and didn't kill her. There is no sign that Isley is an exception to the rule, so it is more likely than not that the general rule of the head being his weak point is true. Isley is a pretty solid AB, unlike Riful and unlike Agatha. It is not that Riful is stronger, it is just the type of AB she is.

Yes I know you're right. This is one of those moments where I know I have a mentality about this sort of thing and I know it's wrong.

When I look at Awakened as strong as Abyssals, I don't see their human forms as anything other then disguises because it's the Awakened Form that's their true appearance - beings as strong as them are practically yoki itself given physical human forms. In my head, attacking and destroying their human form doesn't do anything because their is so much more power to them then that, their too different to have such a simple human weakness like that.

I don't know....I know I'm wrong, and I don't know where I got this mentality from either.

When it comes to human form, they use it too disguise themselves and conserve and hide their energy, but they just have too much power behind them to make me think that killing them the old fashion way would really do anything to them, it's too simple and obvious, I feel like their's so much more to them then that.

Whatever :uhoh:

(I do agree with what you say how Isley is a much more "solid" Awakened, much more then others like Riful who don't have a form as whole and "humanoid" as he does).

Looking at Cnet's latest scanlation, they've outdone themselves this time, I keep blinking at Cynthia everytime I read her say "youryoki"........what?

[Cyclone]

Tell me about it; it's one of the big reasons I think the DS game was god awful and Claymore just can't be made into a game, at least without being creative.

It's not that it's not good enough, but it's just too different. With games, you got to take alot of measures for gameplay purposes and you can't do that without eliminating what makes Claymore unique and and special.

Instead of a side-scroller, they should do what Cyclone said: A PC game with a GTA open-world environment where you are able to talk to people to advance the story and walk from town to town, or even across the whole island if you feel like it. the DS and a Side-Scroller are just terrible ideas.

Be creative; maybe instead of being one of the characters, make your own Claymore and enter the war however you wish. Feel like Awakening? go ahead. Want to join a side besides the Org? go ahead. Be creative already game developers!

I didn't say that - someone else did.

[Shiek927]

I didn't say that - someone else did.

Sorry, it's been a while since I remembered who came up with the idea and you were the first who one came to mind for whatever reason.

[Cyclone]

Not a problem. I actually liked that idea too, despite the fact I prefer japanese RPGs to FPS style games. Just don't want to take credit when it's not due though.

[Shiek927]

Not a problem. I actually liked that idea too, despite the fact I prefer japanese RPGs to FPS style games. Just don't want to take credit when it's not due though.

The idea isn't really FPS-style, I had something in mind more like Grand Theft Auto - a PC open-world environment through a third-person view where you control your character and basically do what you want.

You'll play as Claire and basically go through the game like the manga, or go off and do your own thing as you please, like a "make your own adventure thing". As you explore and meet people, they eventually become unlockable characters and can play as them in their own adventure that you make. Progressing unlocks skill trees(like Diablo) where you can either get the same abilities as the character in the manga, or branch off and level up your own way. Would be curious seeing, say, Deneve, having the sensing skills that surpass Galatea :heh:. Leveling up extremely slowly will make you a stronger Awakened, which you have the choice of becoming whenever you feel like it, provided you understand the consequences - you'll lose "points"(or whatever) with everybody and be forced to feed, though transforming makes you liable to make better friendship points with other Awakened as they understand you. And of course, like KOTOR, your actions will control where the story goes. If you're Clarice and you refuse to breastfeed Miata for too long, this could end with very dark consequences.

It would be cool because everyone would have their own system of combat based on the characters; some like Raki, who has no yoki at all, would have something very unique to be around his fighting style.

At the very least, a game like that has the ground for alot of creativity and free-reign and it's really what you need for a manga like Claymore. Throw out some more ideas everyone :)

[iLney]

I ignored it for a reason, because once you started talking about game mechanics it became meaningless, because Claymore is not based on game mechanics, and game mechanics are limitations to writing fiction. Anyway, I know all about combat system and such. I once developed a combat system for an open source remake of the old X-Com game. But despite how cool games might be when you play them, they have nothing to do with writing, or even what is logical, because they put limitations on what happens in the real world or even in a fantasy world. Like for example, way back in the day when I was playing Baulder Gate, out of boredom I decided to throw knives at a fully armored knight and killed him as such. That just means that AD&D for example is absurd. The same goes for most any game you play. You talk about 1/8 and 1/4 using such puny numbers under the denominator, because human minds can conceptualize suce puny numbers, instead of using a value in the denominator that is in the millions and closer to reality. Anyway, I don't dislike such games, but like I said they are stupefied rules whose purpose is fun, not realism.

So what is Claymore based on? Once I established a reasonable layout I could safely build my argument on it, no? Dismiss it for that reason is absurd for I can dismiss all most everything based on that. Now GuildWars not such game you mention. If the those SoBs at ArenaNet didn't follow the WoW's formula and invent stupid skills & rules, GW, I dare say, is a game close to the level of chess.

And I throw in those number to show you how experience can make such a huge difference. And 1/8=0.125 and 1/4 = 0.25. It's damm fast and it's impossible to catch using reflex alone. And how one can readily catch those? Experiences: learn how other plays. And as you may expect, there is one draw-back: those good rangers who use the skill so successfully against good players but perform quite poorly against bad players because the latter is unpredictable in the sense. But guess what? If there are bad, they're gonna lose anyway.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

I think you're missing my point here. By using game mechanics as a basis of fiction, you are putting unneeded limitations on what you can do. In fact, when writing fan fiction based on some game, it is probably better to ignore many of those unnecessary rules and use your own imagination and logic to write it. Anyway, the simple fact is: Claymore does not follow GW's rules, no matter how cool the game is. So bringing up something that has nothing to do with the manga is fruitless.

[Ryus]

Tell me about it; it's one of the big reasons I think the DS game was god awful and Claymore just can't be made into a game, at least without being creative.

It's not that it's not good enough, but it's just too different. With games, you got to take alot of measures for gameplay purposes and you can't do that without eliminating what makes Claymore unique and and special.

Instead of a side-scroller, they should do what Cyclone said: A PC game with a GTA open-world environment where you are able to talk to people to advance the story and walk from town to town, or even across the whole island if you feel like it. the DS and a Side-Scroller are just terrible ideas.

Be creative; maybe instead of being one of the characters, make your own Claymore and enter the war however you wish. Feel like Awakening? go ahead. Want to join a side besides the Org? go ahead. Be creative already game developers!

I didn't say that - someone else did.

I mentioned how I'd love for Claymore to be made into a huge open world, like Fallout 3. I'm sure others have said similar stuff though too...

Here is a link to my old post: Click here. (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=2426140#post2426140) It's kinda long... sorry in advance to all those who don't like to read long posts.

The link takes you to the Claymore DS thread.

@ everyone. I've been gone for over 24 hours and you only have done 13 pages of posts. I was expecting 20 or more. :p

[Gangsta Spanksta]

:p I guess some people are on summer vacation. But what kinda Oatku doesn't buy a laptop with the proper wireless technology, just so he can post here? :heh:

[Shiek927]

I mentioned how I'd love for Claymore to be made into a huge open world, like Fallout 3. I'm sure others have said similar stuff though too...

Here is a link to my old post: Click here. (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=2426140#post2426140) It's kinda long... sorry in advance to all those who don't like to read long posts.

The link takes you to the Claymore DS thread.

@ everyone. I've been gone for over 24 hours and you only have done 13 pages of posts. I was expecting 20 or more. :p

Good grief, the amount of detail you put is incredible :heh:, you even wrote down which systems you wanted it to come out for :heh:

Well, I originally only wanted PC, but sure, the 360 and PS3 would be good as well.

And considering all the effort, I think it's pretty clear it's you who I thought posted the idea :heh:

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Ah man, no Linux port? :heh: