[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[GreyZone]

Strangely i only started to think about Nanjo when i got to EP8's mystery board. His purple declaration about "Anyone can correctly check someone else's Alive/Dead status." was one of the key points in solving it. Because if he was 1 of the culprits, then the game would become very hard, as checking people's Live/Death status would just be restricted almost only to the narration. Only after that I realized Nanjo's importance in the previous games.

[Renall]

Now that you say it... Eva fails twice... because of Battler. Now i have to think if This action in Legend o.t.g.W. was done by Meta!Battler himself or forced by Meta!Beato. After all we know for sure that the situation in End o.t.g.W. was scripted by Lambdadelta.

Well Meta!Beato did say in EP1TP that she "knows all of Battler's moves now". But were the "moves" really all of Battler's actions or does it only refer to his internal-monologues where he shows his thoughts about "what could have happened"?
This is actually somewhat of a problem. Eva uses the receipt trick to prove Kinzo wasn't in the room to begin with (or so she wants everyone to believe). It's Battler who challenges the idea and presents the scenarios that allow Kinzo to have slipped away unnoticed.

This is, as far as I know, impossible for Beatrice to plan for unless Battler is somehow in on it too. She has no idea whether Battler will step in to defend Kinzo and Natsuhi, or whether he'll come up with a good idea, or whether anyone else present will accept it as a reasonable explanation. Suppose one of these things were to fail to play out. Now what? Everyone starts focusing too much on Natsuhi.

Now true, having Kinzo turn up incinerated later does somewhat defray suspicion from him and from Natsuhi, but depending on timing it may not; if his body had to be in there quite a long time, then they're just going to assume Natsuhi did it before they caught her. How does Beatrice recover from this situation? "Kill Natsuhi" is the obvious measure, but if they treat her like they did in ep5 and put her under guard, it may become impossible.

[GreyZone]

Well there are many parallels between LEGEND and END. And we know that Battler must have been on it in END at least, but most likely not in LEGEND. This is probably due to the "Detective" position switching over to Erika in END.

--

Framing Natsuhi is acually a bad thing for Beatrice, because at least in the first 4 games her goal was to make the culprit the "magical witch" with impossible crimes. If a human becomes a suspect, the focus on the witch weakens and i doubt that Beatrice does that on purpose. I really don't understand why Eva would be bribed to use that receipt. Without Battler's intervention, Eva could probably convince some people to suspect Natsuhi. This just doesn't add up.

[LyricalAura]

Now true, having Kinzo turn up incinerated later does somewhat defray suspicion from him and from Natsuhi, but depending on timing it may not; if his body had to be in there quite a long time, then they're just going to assume Natsuhi did it before they caught her. How does Beatrice recover from this situation? "Kill Natsuhi" is the obvious measure, but if they treat her like they did in ep5 and put her under guard, it may become impossible.

Hideyoshi: We're sorry, Battler, she suddenly attacked us and got away while you were looking for Eva. It was like she was possessed by a demon! What do you mean you found them both dead in sealed rooms?
Beatrice: Eva and Natsuhi are dead. Those two were "close", right? Ahaha.wav.

[jjblue1]

I'm not saying every single thing he ever says is a lie - in fact, we have red confirming one of his diagnosis in EP3. And I'm pretty sure -most- of his "Yeah, they're totally dead" calls were genuine. However, Nanjo (as well as Genji and Kumasawa) are confirmed almost right out of the gate to be huge, huge, pants-long-since-turned-to-ashes liars who'll say or do almost anything for Shkanon's convenience, even long after the point where it stops seeming to be in their best interest to do so.

And to be fair, Beatrice, if anything, totally encouraged Battler to suspect these people, like, alot.

The problem is that I've hard time believing Nanjo would support Yasu if he had the feeling she could kill him... and considering she's killing even the people she was supposed to like/be friend with (like Jessica for example) the suspicion she might have no peaceful intentions should come to him.

Though it's possible he feels blackmailed. She might have told him:
If you cooperate I'll hand you money, if not I'll say you lied about Kinzo being still alive and about my life or death status and that you were bribed by Kinzo in helping Beatrice Castiglioni.

Though still: Yasu is a teenager who's making a crazy mass murder. If I were in him I'll take my chances, tattle her out and say she's mad and not to believe her accusations (plus that she killed Kinzo and hid his body so I wouldn't have to explain what happened of Kinzo).

Basically the weird part that not even Our confession explain is how everyone let himself be bribed so easily by an apparently mad, mass murderer teenager maid who claims to own some gold and might add she's Kinzo's illegittimate grandaughter.

[Wanderer]

The actions of the accomplices are always much easier to explain with Murder Game Theory, that they were under the belief that no one was actually dieing.

Although this doesn't mean that there weren't real deaths, nor does it mean that the accomplices were fooled into thinking real murders were fake ones. I think the explanation is more meta. It's like motive was written into the story from the standpoint of a murder game, while the results of the game were written as real. This is why whenever we try to understand the motive in terms of the end result that we always get nonsense: It's because the motive for murder only exists in fantasy and the outcome (mass death) only exists in reality.

Well, there could be some real intrigues happening too, but they are not the work of Beatrice. For example, it seems likely that Eva and the other adults really did want to reveal that Kinzo was dead. In Legend, if you imagine Eva sees the murders as just a game but sees Kinzo's life/death status as serious business then her slip of paper in the door makes perfect sense. It's also interesting to note that it would mean Eva used the game for her own ends. It parallels End pretty strongly, as well as the idea that someone possibly hijacked the murder game to commit real murder.

[LyricalAura]

If you start from the idea that Piece-Beatrice understands that she's a fictional character in a mystery, you get roughly the same effect. It's actually really elegant; the biggest barrier to having the culprit do complicated things to mess with the reader is justifying their actions, so removing it opens up a whole new class of tricks. Combined with the ability to control any accomplices she wants, she has a really terrifying level of deceptive power at her disposal.

And it makes all of the Shkanon mechanics work out too, which is a nice bonus feature.

[goldendust]

I'm not saying every single thing he ever says is a lie - in fact, we have red confirming one of his diagnosis in EP3. And I'm pretty sure -most- of his "Yeah, they're totally dead" calls were genuine. However, Nanjo (as well as Genji and Kumasawa) are confirmed almost right out of the gate to be huge, huge, pants-long-since-turned-to-ashes liars who'll say or do almost anything for Shkanon's convenience, even long after the point where it stops seeming to be in their best interest to do so.


Hmm that is indeed true.


Now true, having Kinzo turn up incinerated later does somewhat defray suspicion from him and from Natsuhi, but depending on timing it may not; if his body had to be in there quite a long time, then they're just going to assume Natsuhi did it before they caught her. How does Beatrice recover from this situation? "Kill Natsuhi" is the obvious measure, but if they treat her like they did in ep5 and put her under guard, it may become impossible.

Although the later murders and events as planned by the culprit in EP1 does elevate suspicion away from Natsuhi. More so when she is put under constant supervision.

-when Kanon gets "killed" in the boiler room(impossible for Natsuhi or any other human as everyone's location was determined)

-when the letter was placed in such a way that Natsuhi would drive everyone out(she does have the most authority as the only adult and parent Ushiromiya), the way that it was planned by the culprit that only Maria, Kumasawa,Nanjo and Genji could have placed the letter

-everyone who left the room aside from Maria was killed where it was impossible again for Natsuhi to be blamed for it



The problem is that I've hard time believing Nanjo would support Yasu if he had the feeling she could kill him... and considering she's killing even the people she was supposed to like/be friend with (like Jessica for example) the suspicion she might have no peaceful intentions should come to him.

Though it's possible he feels blackmailed. She might have told him:
If you cooperate I'll hand you money, if not I'll say you lied about Kinzo being still alive and about my life or death status and that you were bribed by Kinzo in helping Beatrice Castiglioni.

Though still: Yasu is a teenager who's making a crazy mass murder. If I were in him I'll take my chances, tattle her out and say she's mad and not to believe her accusations (plus that she killed Kinzo and hid his body so I wouldn't have to explain what happened of Kinzo).


The problem with certain lies is that you need to commit to them. That what exactly what Natsuhi's problem was in the last past games.

If Nanjo was forced into being an accomplice either by monetary compensation, threaten his life or the well being of his grandson into aiding her murder plans.

Look at from Nanjo's perspective that he might not know all of the other accomplices as well in the games when "Shkanon" dies which makes it even more unnerving to make a move. Basically making a move against the culprit and accomplices could result in him falling out of graces of the culprit and getting murdered himself.

Also the another possibility is that Nanjo might believe that certain murders like the one that Jessica was killed was not by Beatrice. Lets say if Genji or Shkanon told him that someone else was committing those murders. For example in EP3 it was implied that there are two murderers. That would make it even less likely to confide in others or make a move on his own for fear that he would get killed by either culprit.

A final possibility is that Nanjo feels guilt tripped into helping Shkanon. Keep in mind that the whole "furniture" complex originated with Nanjo saving them as a baby and telling them the truth about their condition.

The actions of the accomplices are always much easier to explain with Murder Game Theory, that they were under the belief that no one was actually dieing.

Although this doesn't mean that there weren't real deaths, nor does it mean that the accomplices were fooled into thinking real murders were fake ones. I think the explanation is more meta. It's like motive was written into the story from the standpoint of a murder game, while the results of the game were written as real. This is why whenever we try to understand the motive in terms of the end result that we always get nonsense: It's because the motive for murder only exists in fantasy and the outcome (mass death) only exists in reality.


Assuming that Nanjo is the an accomplice which is very likely. How could he be fooled into thinking that the murders were fake when he confirmed people as dead at times according to Kealym. Not to mention as a doctor, he would be pretty hard to fool.

[Wanderer]

Assuming that Nanjo is the an accomplice which is very likely. How could he be fooled into thinking that the murders were fake when he confirmed people as dead at times according to Kealym. Not to mention as a doctor, he would be pretty hard to fool.

You don't seem to understand what I am trying to say, which isn't surprising because what I am trying to say is pretty weird:

Nanjo is an accomplice; there's no doubt about that. He wasn't fooled into thinking some murders were fake. It's just that his motive for lying about them is based on fantasy.

It doesn't make realistic sense, but that's just how the stories were written.

[GreyZone]

Now i understand Virgillia's words from EP3, that both mystery and fantasy side exist at the same time.

The gameboards have actually 2 stories running in parallel that were mixed up and had a quite confusing result.

To make it more specific: If we break the story up in who dunnit how dunnit and why dunnit, it probably looks like this:


Why dunnit: Fantasy exclusive element. As we see with Nanjo, who helps Yasu, although there is a high chance that he gets killed by her. He is "her piece".

How dunnit: Mystery exclusive element. No kind of magic was really used to kill anyone on the gameboard (aside from extreme luck in winning gun fights). Or better said: It is FORBIDDEN for magic to be used, as the Knox decalouge is in effect for this part.

Who dunnit: Mixed element. Metaphora are allowed for people, and personalities can have "names", but only if it is possible to interpret them as such. For example (not in the game, I just made it up):
In this room Shanon and Kanon died. Only one corpse is present. No corpse was carried out of the room. And to make sure no one pulls a EP5 Ronove here: A corpse is a dead body and nothing else.
As you can see the meaning of "Shanon and Kanon" can be interpreted in many ways, but the "number of bodies/corpses" can not.

[LyricalAura]

Assuming that Nanjo is the an accomplice which is very likely. How could he be fooled into thinking that the murders were fake when he confirmed people as dead at times according to Kealym. Not to mention as a doctor, he would be pretty hard to fool.

Well, according to Our Confession, Beato didn't always trick her accomplices into thinking they were playing a game. If it was more convenient or there was some reason why the person wouldn't go along with it, she threatened them with the bomb instead. I imagine that since Nanjo is up close and personal with the corpses all the time, he falls into the "threaten with bomb" category.

[UsagiTenpura]

You don't seem to understand what I am trying to say, which isn't surprising because what I am trying to say is pretty weird:

Nanjo is an accomplice; there's no doubt about that. He wasn't fooled into thinking some murders were fake. It's just that his motive for lying about them is based on fantasy.

It doesn't make realistic sense, but that's just how the stories were written.

1 kilometer wide explosion (while the largest underground nukes craters aren't even half that size) sorta killed the realistic possibility in Umineko's mystery side.
I don't think Ryuukishi is an idiot who just used a random number to say "huge explosion" without knowing what he was talking about either. Clearly, when he gave us the idea of a 1 kilometer wide explosion, he wanted us to throw realism out of the window, or rather to show us that mystery has to do it as much as fantasy does.


Now i understand Virgillia's words from EP3, that both mystery and fantasy side exist at the same time.

The gameboards have actually 2 stories running in parallel that were mixed up and had a quite confusing result.

To make it more specific: If we break the story up in who dunnit how dunnit and why dunnit, it probably looks like this:


Why dunnit: Fantasy exclusive element. As we see with Nanjo, who helps Yasu, although there is a high chance that he gets killed by her. He is "her piece".

How dunnit: Mystery exclusive element. No kind of magic was really used to kill anyone on the gameboard (aside from extreme luck in winning gun fights). Or better said: It is FORBIDDEN for magic to be used, as the Knox decalouge is in effect for this part.

Who dunnit: Mixed element. Metaphora are allowed for people, and personalities can have "names", but only if it is possible to interpret them as such. For example (not in the game, I just made it up):
In this room Shanon and Kanon died. Only one corpse is present. No corpse was carried out of the room. And to make sure no one pulls a EP5 Ronove here: A corpse is a dead body and nothing else.
As you can see the meaning of "Shanon and Kanon" can be interpreted in many ways, but the "number of bodies/corpses" can not.

Amazing to see that in the end I'm not the only one who has similar thoughts concerning this. Should try to find these posts but they're years old now.
I considered Umineko to be a "coin" with two sides, mystery and fantasy. It'd be silly to consider one side of a coin to be its real side while the other is fake, is basically what I think concerning this.
And OC really seems to fit with this, talking about 3 stories.
Coin side Mystery, coin side Fantasy, and the coin itself, or if you want what is the story of Umineko itself (which seems to be basically a meta love story).

As for the "how dunnit" and "why dunnit" relation, I mostly think like you do, except I sorta think this was Beato's game and the reason she couldn't win it easily :
There is a why dunnit and a how dunnit for both mystery and fantasy. I believe
Beatrice wanted to make a fantasy story that still requires thinking (and thus a how dunnit of mystery).
When fantasy wins, the mystery how dunnit is crushed, and thus reasoning stops, which is not what Beatrice wanted.
When mystery wins, the fantasy story is destroyed and becomes nothing but a lie, removing the tale that Beatrice wanted to write to begin with.

So basically yeah we're supposed I believe to embrace both.
OC only further convinced me I was right about this as it doesn't care about anything in the mystery outside of the how dunnit.

Furthermore, in the vast majority of cases, the mystery answers we were provided are more crazy/insane then the fantasy answers. Nearly everything that concerns Beatrice 2 falls especially into that.

[Renall]

So then, have we really been reduced to that? I hate the very idea of shrugging our collective shoulders and saying "Well, he meant parts of it to be thought of this way, and parts of it to be thought of that way, I guess." That's pretty much the last word one can have about the matter, and it ultimately satisfies neither story element. If the idea was to advance a story in which the two are reconciled, I'd say it didn't work out very well.

Of course there are mystery-fantasies and fantasy-mysteries, but that isn't quite the same thing as what's being talked about here.

[Wanderer]

So then, have we really been reduced to that? I hate the very idea of shrugging our collective shoulders and saying "Well, he meant parts of it to be thought of this way, and parts of it to be thought of that way, I guess." That's pretty much the last word one can have about the matter, and it ultimately satisfies neither story element. If the idea was to advance a story in which the two are reconciled, I'd say it didn't work out very well.

Hmm...

What exactly do you want out of Umineko's exchange between Fantasy and Mystery that is different from this?

[UsagiTenpura]

So then, have we really been reduced to that? I hate the very idea of shrugging our collective shoulders and saying "Well, he meant parts of it to be thought of this way, and parts of it to be thought of that way, I guess." That's pretty much the last word one can have about the matter, and it ultimately satisfies neither story element. If the idea was to advance a story in which the two are reconciled, I'd say it didn't work out very well.

Of course there are mystery-fantasies and fantasy-mysteries, but that isn't quite the same thing as what's being talked about here.

Iono, when I watch, let's say, LOTR, I can think about how it's an amazing technical realization and wonder and how they managed to make "x scene" until I learn about it later. This does not conflict in any ways with my enjoyment of said movie's story. Knowing that wizards dont really do magic in it doesnt result in my suspension of disbelief vanishing either.

This normally would sound a crazy way to approach a novel, but the meta-fiction content of Umineko makes this very possible.

As for the thinking part, Beatrice wanted us to think to reach her hidden answers (that we still cant agree at all on), not the technical truth of her how dunnit. She put foward a how dunnit to force to us to start reasoning.

In the end, the murders and the red text exists pretty much for the same reason. They won't bring you the truth but without them we wouldn't even have bothered to start reasoning and trying to find the truth about Beatrice.

I dont think this results in something as confusing or messy as your post seems to suggest. The only thing that remains really hard and confusing to get is the third story.

[jjblue1]

1 kilometer wide explosion (while the largest underground nukes craters aren't even half that size) sorta killed the realistic possibility in Umineko's mystery side.
I don't think Ryuukishi is an idiot who just used a random number to say "huge explosion" without knowing what he was talking about either. Clearly, when he gave us the idea of a 1 kilometer wide explosion, he wanted us to throw realism out of the window, or rather to show us that mystery has to do it as much as fantasy does.

A similar problem comes with the ingots.
We're always lead to believe they're a huge mountain but actually they should be a mountain of around 91 cm × 90 cm × 85 cm. Which is a huge amount of gold but not such a huge mountain.

Amazing to see that in the end I'm not the only one who has similar thoughts concerning this. Should try to find these posts but they're years old now.
I considered Umineko to be a "coin" with two sides, mystery and fantasy. It'd be silly to consider one side of a coin to be its real side while the other is fake, is basically what I think concerning this.
And OC really seems to fit with this, talking about 3 stories.
Coin side Mystery, coin side Fantasy, and the coin itself, or if you want what is the story of Umineko itself (which seems to be basically a meta love story).

As for the "how dunnit" and "why dunnit" relation, I mostly think like you do, except I sorta think this was Beato's game and the reason she couldn't win it easily :
There is a why dunnit and a how dunnit for both mystery and fantasy. I believe
Beatrice wanted to make a fantasy story that still requires thinking (and thus a how dunnit of mystery).
When fantasy wins, the mystery how dunnit is crushed, and thus reasoning stops, which is not what Beatrice wanted.
When mystery wins, the fantasy story is destroyed and becomes nothing but a lie, removing the tale that Beatrice wanted to write to begin with.

So basically yeah we're supposed I believe to embrace both.
OC only further convinced me I was right about this as it doesn't care about anything in the mystery outside of the how dunnit.

Furthermore, in the vast majority of cases, the mystery answers we were provided are more crazy/insane then the fantasy answers. Nearly everything that concerns Beatrice 2 falls especially into that.

Hum... I'm all right with thinking that the fantasy side gives some clues but unless I'm mistaking you this seems to go back to pieceYasu/Beato/Shannon/Kanon is either mad in the fragments or she's being without will, manipulated by MetaBeato who have a motive and is showing it through fantasy.

The last, to be honest, seems to be implied also by that forgery that had Battler as culprit merely because people wanted him to be the culprit... and by an ending in Ougon Musou Kyoku in which Battler is again the culprit because Beato said so (or so I've been said) and it can have a sense if we've to consider that this, for Beato was all a game and therefore a piece might have taken the 'culprit' card and be forced to act as culprit.

Through yes, it destroy the mystery or better it destroy the importance of the mystery.
The 'why dunnit' isn't anymore 'why the culprit did it' but 'why Beato wrote character X doing this and that' making more or less meaningless trying to understand the pieces' actions and ask us to understand Beato's motivations.

Considering in Ep 5 Battler wanted to understand why Beato make this or that move it can fit even more... though I'll honestly admit that if that's the case I'm sorry there's not a motive for the mistery side of the story.

[GreyZone]

I think the games are... let's say "overexaggerations that became real".

For example George said that he would eliminate everyone, who would stand before his and Shanon's love (see Alliance o.t.g.W.), but would not really ever do that.

Or maybe Beatrice would kill 6 people, that would be later revived by her magic again and everyone having a happy end. While in the real world they were only playing dead, in the games they really die, because "magic" in another sense becomes true. But this magic is not the one, where you can create fireballs or lightning from your hands, but instead the "human tricks" that she tries to make others believe it's really magic. So if we look at her goal of making others believe in magic, then wouldn't it make more sense to bring the to play dead and then say she "revived them again"? Isn't that more effective than really killing them and putting them in some closed rooms? There are many solutions to closed rooms, but i doubt you could find any explanation for someone "rising from the dead" aside from them having played dead or that "a mircale occured". So what I want to say is, that a big part of the content is metaphorical and has content, that for some people may be more worth, than just finding the murder, his methods and his reasons for murder.

Also if you remember, Battler called the gameboard a "love letter" from Beato to him. But that cannot be the mystery, because that is something that the whole world got to know about. So there must be a "hidden element" in it that was adressed only to him. I think that is the difference between Battler's and Will's reasoning. While Will found the motive of the "killer" on the gameboard, Battler went further and found the motive of the author.

[UsagiTenpura]

Considering the idea that piece Beato is aware of being a fictional character...

I think thats right. That's why Shannon and Kanon consider themselves furniture. They are only roles for a story, fictional character. They do not have any freedom, nor any rights. They clearly do not have any future and must serve and be grateful until they are thrown away.
This fits very well with fictional characters aware of being so.
Beatrice is implied constantly to be partially a furniture as well.

Furthermore, I think the golden land and the meta-world are basically the same thing. Rather the golden land lies in accepting it.
I think its a sort of ultimate breaking the fourth wall world where there isnt any more distinction between fictional and real. I guess, its sorta like some anime that has the entire cast (including all the dead characters) going in vacation after the story is over, or other such thing (actually I just remembered arc 8 does something ridiculously similar to that).
In Uminekos case its more pertinent however as there are various levels of story.
You know like that story about a couple that became animals during the day/night and thus couldnt ever be together? Think about Battler being stuck in the level of mystery and beatrice on the level of Fantasy, seperate world stories, and they can only meet in that upper meta-world where such distinctions doesnt matter and I think it results in an intersting love story.

Edit: Also I think its possible that we got it all wrong. The mystery scenes are as figurative as fantasy scenes.
Beato and Battler not being together, to use my example, is a Meta-truth, and is absolute.
On the mystery side, to keep that relation, a story needs to exist to explain why Yasu and Battler arent together.
The mystery story, however, would be a fiction that represents that above truth.
It only makes sense, because Umineko is a fiction, and writers puts into their fictions stories based on things they lived, not the other way around.
So its like Ryuukishi translated as Beatrice translated as Yasu.

[Renall]

I think that your interpretation of the idea is wandering far afield. It's fine to speculate on it, but what specifically backs it up? "I can't explain it, therefore there was probably a meta-motive" is insufficient; it should be possible to demonstrate that the only motive which can function is a meta-motive. I'm thoroughly unconvinced that such a thing is true for any character, no matter how they're portrayed.

That aside, the mere fact a character is fictional and knows it doesn't actually mean they have to be motivated by meta-fictional elements.Hmm...

What exactly do you want out of Umineko's exchange between Fantasy and Mystery that is different from this?Need I want something, or can I not just be disappointed?

[UsagiTenpura]

Well from my pov its a matter of theme and emphasis of the story.
Even arc 7 that dealt with Yasu's motives had little to do with actual murder.
So it's more I cannot reach a decisive conclusion concerning the pieces' motives and the story itself does not seem to care much about such a thing, and especially Battler who figured things out.
Arc 5 and 6 in particular seems to put a huge emphasis on the murder part not being the motives we're seeking. I mean, did you ever get the feeling that arc 6 was related in any ways to understanding why did piece-Erika murder the ones she murdered or why did everyone fake their death?

I think the problem overall here is more related to thinking that as a meta-fiction, Umineko basically says the obvious in most cases.
But I think that obvious sorta falls into the same category as "people die when you kill them" (Fate) meaning that something being obvious can still be worth to seriously consider and not ridiculised, even tho it's easy and tempting sometimes to do so.

What I do not get tho is why you dislike this considering your theory about the meta-world where Battler was an experiment created by Featherine and what else.

[Renall]

That rather selectively ignores much of ep7.

[jjblue1]

Well, we already compared Umineko to a metaphor more than once.

So we could see it like that. The incident really happened and Yasu and Battler survived becoming Ikuko and Toya. Ikuko began writing forgeries in which ShKannon was the culprit in hope Toya (who was helping her) would guess why she was doing it. Somehow Toya's brain translated it into a meta battle between his Battler self and Beato while the various stories became 'fragments'.

In short the mystery at which Battler/Toya is challenged isn't the murdering one but figuring out the writer's motivations so the motive EP 7 offered (playing a murder game with Battler) would be the motive behind Yasu the writer and Battler is supposed to guess why she's applying to PieceYasu as it's obviously a weak motive to make a mass murder.

And... hum... wasn't it said/implied that in Our Confession the culprit has a meta motive?

Also... has someone even thought the numbers we're given in EP 7 2,578,917/2,578,916 might be some sort of code message/have a meaning?
I mean, Umineko is full of number messages (Toya's name and penname, the same is applied to Ikuko, there are numbers involved in the epitaph riddle and there's a number in Ep 3) so is it possible that those numbers in Japanese might be read in a way that is meaningful?

[goldendust]

You don't seem to understand what I am trying to say, which isn't surprising because what I am trying to say is pretty weird:

Nanjo is an accomplice; there's no doubt about that. He wasn't fooled into thinking some murders were fake. It's just that his motive for lying about them is based on fantasy.

It doesn't make realistic sense, but that's just how the stories were written.

So the motive based on fantasy?

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong but wasn't that a counter of Eva-Beatrice in EP3? That Eva-Beatrice plunged Kirie's motive into fantasy by saying that she as a witch controlled her since Kirie's motive for leaving was not to gather food.

That Battler needed to find a proof and make the correct deduction about Kirie's motive otherwise Eva-Beatrice as part of the witch side could still win due to upholding a part of the witch's illusion. The detective needs to also work out motive with clues, hints and analysis of character. In fact Will the detective has emphasized that point more than anyone.

Basically what you are saying that Nanjo's motive is pure fantasy. No different than if he were to be controlled by a witch.


I don't know, it just feels odd to base the motive on fantasy. :uhoh:

[jjblue1]

So the motive based on fantasy?

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong but wasn't that a counter of Eva-Beatrice in EP3? That Eva-Beatrice plunged Kirie's motive into fantasy by saying that she as a witch controlled her since Kirie's motive for leaving was not to gather food.

That Battler needed to find a proof and make the correct deduction about Kirie's motive otherwise Eva-Beatrice as part of the witch side could still win due to upholding a part of the witch's illusion. The detective needs to also work out motive with clues, hints and analysis of character. In fact Will the detective has emphasized that point more than anyone.

Basically what you are saying that Nanjo's motive is pure fantasy. No different than if he were to be controlled by a witch.

I don't know, it just feels odd to base the motive on fantasy. :uhoh:

I prefer to think that, more than based on fantasy, the motive is simply OOC, sort of like the one Bern used in the tea party where Kirye and Rudolf thought it was smart to kill everyone.

It could have been a motive we would have accepted hadn't we believed they were smarter than that.

In the same way someone who doesn't know Nanjo can accept he would lie over the people being dead or not, if offered money or that Shannon would kill everyone to get Battler's attention.

It's Battler who's supposed to figure out this is not what the REAL Shannon would do and wonder why she was given such a OOC motive.

[AuraTwilight]

What I do not get tho is why you dislike this considering your theory about the meta-world where Battler was an experiment created by Featherine and what else.

That idea is a PARODY, mind you.

[GreyZone]

I prefer to think that, more than based on fantasy, the motive is simply OOC, sort of like the one Bern used in the tea party where Kirye and Rudolf thought it was smart to kill everyone.

It could have been a motive we would have accepted hadn't we believed they were smarter than that.

In the same way someone who doesn't know Nanjo can accept he would lie over the people being dead or not, if offered money or that Shannon would kill everyone to get Battler's attention.

It's Battler who's supposed to figure out this is not what the REAL Shannon would do and wonder why she was given such a OOC motive.



That's right. I tried to make the point plently of times already, that the character's behavior differ a lot between WTC3 and WTC4.

And even the "protagonist" of the story, Battler, did so.

Erika stated in EP6, that the witches game toughed Battler up, however she realized that she was talking to PieceBattler then, who did NOT go through the witches' games. In other words, even the PieceBattler from the first Episodes is different from the latter Episodes.

Same for Beato and Kinzo. In WTC3 they were the really, really "bad guys" and then both suddenly made a "Heel Face Turn (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeelFaceTurn)".

And this is a point that is not only reduced to "reliable scenes vs fantasy scenes". Even when comparing the scenes with the detective present, there are changes in behaviour between the Episodes.

[goldendust]

I prefer to think that, more than based on fantasy, the motive is simply OOC, sort of like the one Bern used in the tea party where Kirye and Rudolf thought it was smart to kill everyone.

It could have been a motive we would have accepted hadn't we believed they were smarter than that.


Bern's game was meant to be be a portrayal of the worse possible truth to Ange. The point of Beatrice's games is to both misdirect and direct Battler to the truth.

Motive is large part of that, in fact the heart of all the games. The motive for the murders is within the first four EP like Will said IIRC.


In the same way someone who doesn't know Nanjo can accept he would lie over the people being dead or not, if offered money or that Shannon would kill everyone to get Battler's attention.

It's Battler who's supposed to figure out this is not what the REAL Shannon would do and wonder why she was given such a OOC motive.

Although Nanjo has been lying about someone's death the whole time. Have you forgotten that he lied about Kinzo's death many times in front of the siblings. More so that he also helped covered up Kinzo's deeds from not revealing the existence of Kinzo's mistresses(which included his own daughter). It does not seem OOC.

Also why is it is OOC for Shannon keep in mind that the person who we know as Shannon shares a heart and body with Kanon and Beatrice.

Given that they serve Beatrice and always seem to get killed when confronting her that she is the personality in control as far as the games. As shown that Beatrice can kill and resurrect them like she did in EP3. Interestingly enough on the Meta level, it was also shown that Meta Beatrice is extremely good at acting to fool others like she did to Meta Battler.

What is OOC for Shannon like murder is possible for Beatrice. While other actions like a lover suicide is in character for Shannon for example in EP2.

[Wanderer]

I think it's relevant to the fantasy/meta motive discussion, so here's the end of Our Confessions (translated/summerized by LyricalAura):

Kanon meets up with Shannon and Piece-Beatrice at the chapel, and Shannon asks how it went. He says it was just sleeping, and it was easier than carrying fertilizer around. Beato thanks him for his hard work, and says his role on this game board is finished. Kanon says he'll see both of them again on the next board, and Piece-Beatrice makes him disappear.

Shannon and Piece-Beatrice go inside the chapel. After some searching, Shannon finds a small 20cm gap between the altar in the back and the stained glass window behind it. She ties one end of a cord to a small weight and dangles it in the gap. She ties the other end to a handgun. The weight is heavier than the gun, so the gun should fall into the gap when she lets go of it.

Piece-Beatrice says that it's going to be difficult to get the blood on Shannon's stake right. She smears the stake with a kind of paint that's used in movies. Shannon trades the gun for the stake. Both are pressed up against Shannon's forehead.

"Do you have any regrets?"
"...None. Everything I do is for you, Beatrice-sama."
"It's a shame... If someone had solved the epitaph... you wouldn't have to die either."
"There's no way anyone could solve such a difficult riddle. ...It was a hopeless bet from the very beginning."
"I made the bet in spite of that. ...A miracle that occurs in spite of such odds is worthy of being called magic."
"...In this human world filled with toxin, there are no magic spells or miracles. ...Beatrice-sama. You are the only witch... and the only one who can bring magic into this world."
"That's right. ...I am the Golden Witch, Beatrice. Sleep peacefully. When next you awaken, you will be in the Golden Land. Your beloved George will be there with you."
"...Thank you very much, Beatrice-sama..."

Piece-Beatrice pulls the trigger and Shannon slumps over. Piece-Beatrice lets go of the gun, and the weight pulls it into the gap behind the altar. She notes that it looks like the stake fell out of Shannon's forehead when she collapsed. She places an envelope containing the key to the parlor next to the body, and also adds a letter indicating that she stole Kanon's corpse for another part of the resurrection ritual, which ought to send the survivors running back to the parlor to check on his body.

"Now... That does it for the epitaph serial murders, riiiight? How is it, Battleeer? I hope you enjoy my mystery. Kukuku, haaahaahahahahaha!!!"

Beato says that since she went to the trouble of summoning Flauros, she'll go ahead and make Kanon's disappearance her fault. Something like: after Kanon died, his spirit was attacked by her and Piece-Beatrice, and after a useless struggle, Flauros swallowed him whole. With the serial murder finished, all that's left is to rewrite the story with a fantasy narrative pinning everything on the new demon.

Need I want something, or can I not just be disappointed?

Disappointment implies expectations not met, does it not?

So the motive based on fantasy?

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong but wasn't that a counter of Eva-Beatrice in EP3? That Eva-Beatrice plunged Kirie's motive into fantasy by saying that she as a witch controlled her since Kirie's motive for leaving was not to gather food.

That Battler needed to find a proof and make the correct deduction about Kirie's motive otherwise Eva-Beatrice as part of the witch side could still win due to upholding a part of the witch's illusion. The detective needs to also work out motive with clues, hints and analysis of character. In fact Will the detective has emphasized that point more than anyone.

Basically what you are saying that Nanjo's motive is pure fantasy. No different than if he were to be controlled by a witch.

I don't know, it just feels odd to base the motive on fantasy. :uhoh:

Yes, this is definitely an interesting exchange when considering fantasy motive.

There are a couple things I would like to mention about it, though. First: It was Eva-Beatrice, not Beatrice, who made motive a game issue. Beatrice had ample opportunities to post similar challenges to Battler, but never did. Second: I'm not saying that all motive is based on fantasy, just Yasu's motive for murder (and perhaps that of her accomplices in helping her). Kyrie's case in EP3 would likely be different.

To basically restate what jjblue1 has just recently suggested, you could say that Beatrice is ignoring the murder motive on purpose, specifically so that Battler could realize that there actually isn't one. In other words, the fact that Battler is directed to think about motive, and that Will places so much attention to motive is precisely because the reader is supposed to realize that the fictions lack a satisfying motive and that there is no "better" answer than "Nanjo was controlled by a witch". After all, Yasu/Hachijou unilaterally wrote Nanjo that way without the real Nanjo having any kind of say in the matter. And let's also not forget he's called a "piece": Pieces in games don't control themselves; they are controlled by the people playing the game.

[jjblue1]

Bern's game was meant to be be a portrayal of the worse possible truth to Ange. The point of Beatrice's games is to both misdirect and direct Battler to the truth.

You're justifying Rudolf and Kirye's actions through the meta motive that Bern wanted to hurt Ange.

Motive is large part of that, in fact the heart of all the games. The motive for the murders is within the first four EP like Will said IIRC.

Whatever motive you pic the point is Beato's game portray Shannon as capable to murder everyone, herself included. We've been fighting over how the motive offered by Ep 1-4 (and confirmed by EP 7 and Our confession) didn't seem good enough and many of us agreed it's highly unlikely she would actually be capable of killing in the real prime.
If Bern forced Rudolf and Kirye to act that way for a motive that's not realistic enough why shouldn't Beato do the same with Shannon, giving her a motive that, simply put, is weak?

Although Nanjo has been lying about someone's death the whole time. Have you forgotten that he lied about Kinzo's death many times in front of the siblings. More so that he also helped covered up Kinzo's deeds from not revealing the existence of Kinzo's mistresses(which included his own daughter). It does not seem OOC.

I'm not saying Nanjo isn't a liar... but there's a huge difference between covering the natural death of Kinzo and the fact he had a mistress and a secret daughter and aiding a serial murderer.

I'm not saying he did the good thing at lying previously but I can understand his actions... while if he were to aid the culprit... well... the gravity of his lie changes radically...

Also why is it is OOC for Shannon keep in mind that the person who we know as Shannon shares a heart and body with Kanon and Beatrice.

Given that they serve Beatrice and always seem to get killed when confronting her that she is the personality in control as far as the games. As shown that Beatrice can kill and resurrect them like she did in EP3. Interestingly enough on the Meta level, it was also shown that Meta Beatrice is extremely good at acting to fool others like she did to Meta Battler.

What is OOC for Shannon like murder is possible for Beatrice. While other actions like a lover suicide is in character for Shannon for example in EP2.

Are you saying that Yasuda suffers of multiple personalities or am I misunderstanding you?

That's right. I tried to make the point plently of times already, that the character's behavior differ a lot between WTC3 and WTC4.

And even the "protagonist" of the story, Battler, did so.

Erika stated in EP6, that the witches game toughed Battler up, however she realized that she was talking to PieceBattler then, who did NOT go through the witches' games. In other words, even the PieceBattler from the first Episodes is different from the latter Episodes.

Well, I always found pretty interesting how Battler in Ep 1-4 didn't know how to deal with the epitaph (he didn't even know which city Kinzo would consider as his beloved hometown) then he suddently solved it in EP 5 and the reason for how he could do it is that Bern was moving PieceBattler... which is a meta motive...

[goldendust]

I think it's relevant to the fantasy/meta motive discussion, so here's the end of Our Confessions (translated/summerized by LyricalAura):


Hm, that is certainly interesting but it does confirm the motive that has been established regarding the epitaph.


Yes, this is definitely an interesting exchange when considering fantasy motive.

There are a couple things I would like to mention about it, though. First: It was Eva-Beatrice, not Beatrice, who made motive a game issue. Beatrice had ample opportunities to post similar challenges to Battler, but never did. Second: I'm not saying that all motive is based on fantasy, just Yasu's motive for murder (and perhaps that of her accomplices in helping her). Kyrie's case in EP3 would likely be different.

Beatrice direct and misdirects Battler, that is her role as a game master who is aiming to lose. The reason why EP3 was made in such a way because Battler was having too much difficulty with the games. Eva-Beatrice was also a part of the game that Beatrice made.

Motive was never an issue because Battler was having enough trouble with the Whodunnit and Howdunnit. Even with when the issue of Whydunnit came up, Beatrice helped him through it.

Like I said, saying that motive is fantasy within the very story it is trying to tell is more like what the witch side would do.


To basically restate what jjblue1 has just recently suggested, you could say that Beatrice is ignoring the murder motive on purpose, specifically so that Battler could realize that there actually isn't one. In other words, the fact that Battler is directed to think about motive, and that Will places so much attention to motive is precisely because the reader is supposed to realize that the fictions lack a satisfying motive and that there is no "better" answer than "Nanjo was controlled by a witch". After all, Yasu/Hachijou unilaterally wrote Nanjo that way without the real Nanjo having any kind of say in the matter. And let's also not forget he's called a "piece": Pieces in games don't control themselves; they are controlled by the people playing the game.

I have to disagree there. The point that Will was trying to make is that to solve a mystery one has to understand the person as well with the whole "don't forget the heart" as well Will saying(IIRC) "understanding Kinzo's heart, it is possible to reach this conclusion".

The whole games that Beatrice made was made to understand the heart of Beatrice. Understanding the heart of Beatrice allows one to understand the mysteries of all of the games. That is why Battler kept antagonizing over Beatrice's mindset throughout EP5 on why characters acted as they did.

Nanjo is a piece but piece of the puzzle to solve Beatrice's puzzle that she presented to Battler. Or better said that the author presents to the readers.


You're justifying Rudolf and Kirye's actions through the meta motive that Bern wanted to hurt Ange.


This was about pieces being OOC within the first four games like Nanjo unless I lost track of things.

The games are portrayed as both mysteries and fantasy that is meant to direct one towards an overall truth. If the first four games have the same characters and same game master, why should the motives be made up as well?


Whatever motive you pic the point is Beato's game portray Shannon as capable to murder everyone, herself included. We've been fighting over how the motive offered by Ep 1-4 (and confirmed by EP 7 and Our confession) didn't seem good enough and many of us agreed it's highly unlikely she would actually be capable of killing in the real prime.
If Bern forced Rudolf and Kirye to act that way for a motive that's not realistic enough why shouldn't Beato do the same with Shannon, giving her a motive that, simply put, is weak?

First of all, what do really know about "real Shannon" anyway. The most that we discover about her is within EP 7 where we are suppsoe to discover the motive for the crime.

If the motive is weak then perhaps it is because you lack love :p



I'm not saying Nanjo isn't a liar... but there's a huge difference between covering the natural death of Kinzo and the fact he had a mistress and a secret daughter and aiding a serial murderer.

I'm not saying he did the good thing at lying previously but I can understand his actions... while if he were to aid the culprit... well... the gravity of his lie changes radically...


Really the gravity of Kinzo's deeds is not that he had a secret daughter. The gravity of the issue is that he used abused his daughter by lying to her about her situation, holding her confined within the mansion to be his own, not giving her the chance to seek out her own identity past "Beatrice" and having sex with her to satisfy his own emotional and physical needs.

Possible it was out of loyalty for Kinzo or Nanjo with enough pressure has no problems to aid such actions.

Basically if someone were to put enough pressure on Nanjo, why wouldn't he aid a serial murderer?

Are you saying that Yasuda suffers of multiple personalities or am I misunderstanding you?

I mean as far as the first four games go that the three of them are within the same body. That much is hinted often such as "confrontation" in EP1 and the "revival scenes" in EP3.

[jjblue1]

Like I said, saying that motive is fantasy within the very story it is trying to tell is more like what the witch side would do.

For me it's more saying why the author would write a story like this... which doesn't make the motive to be fantasy but to be in another catbox.

First of all, what do really know about "real Shannon" anyway. The most that we discover about her is within EP 7 where we are suppsoe to discover the motive for the crime.

What do we know about the realcharacter of everyone?
There are more hints about Kirye being capable to kill people than about Shannon being capable to do it.

Though we know Shannon didn't commit any murder in Prime.

If the motive is weak then perhaps it is because you lack love :p

Actually it's because I've love for Shannon that I refuse to see her becoming a sociopath murderer just to get Battler's attention.

Really the gravity of Kinzo's deeds is not that he had a secret daughter. The gravity of the issue is that he used abused his daughter by lying to her about her situation, holding her confined within the mansion to be his own, not giving her the chance to seek out her own identity past "Beatrice" and having sex with her to satisfy his own emotional and physical needs.

Possible it was out of loyalty for Kinzo or Nanjo with enough pressure has no problems to aid such actions.

Basically if someone were to put enough pressure on Nanjo, why wouldn't he aid a serial murderer?

Though I still think Kinzo's actions are horrible they still don't compare to the murder of all the Ushiromiya plus the sevants.
Also we don't even know how much Nanjo knew about Beatrice 2's situation or how bad exactly it was.
Nanjo said Kinzo admitted he felt attraction for her but he might have learnt he got Beato pregnant after Beato was dead... if he got her pregnant because there's even the suspicion Yasu isn't her daughter but someone Kinzo picked up to replace her (and there's even the theory not even Beato is Kinzo's daughter).

I mean as far as the first four games go that the three of them are within the same body. That much is hinted often such as "confrontation" in EP1 and the "revival scenes" in EP3.

In the games is said also that Eva and Eva-Beatrice are the same person and that it's Eva-BEatrice the culprit behind the deaths in EP 3... Eva do not suffer of split personality though and she's not even the culprit in EP 3, apart for maybe Battler's murder.

[AuraTwilight]

Disappointment implies expectations not met, does it not?

Expectation of Quality of not necessarily Expectation of Content. Renall doesn't have to have a preferred alternate model of the story's internal reality if he feels it was a disappointment of a product; he merely has to judge it as lacking in elegance, quality, or satisfaction.

[UsagiTenpura]

So, I'm thinking Renall doesn't need his own lawyer here.
And in the end all that comes out of this is that he doesn't like Umineko. There's a thread for that.
Moving on...



Concerning motives of gameboard...
I think there are tons of them. They are overflowing, but they are crappy motives. Lolgold being the central of them.
Beatrice as a writer can also, at least theorically, make anyone into a culprit.
More importantly we as readers can also do it in our speculation (and indeed does it)
At that point it falls more or less into personal understanding of various characters (and often personal hatred). Did Ryuukishi even have a solid definitive answer concerning this? Maybe, but it doesn't seem to be something he nor the story cares about.
To a lot of people that is Yasu, to a lot of others it is George, I think some people think it's Kyrie and the Battler culprit theory is also in the air. Kinzo's responsability as well as Genji are also up in the air concerning this. But it doesn't really matter who is the culprit in any given story, it's clear that the mastermind is the writer, by definition. That's true even if the culprit is always the same.
This is fundamentally not too different from the relation between the main mystery of Higurashi and a given arc's culprit.

So that's where fantasy motives comes into play. It might not make realistic sense, but it's more interesting then normal motives that simply makes a character look bad, often crazy. Higurashi had it's shares of scifi and fantasy elements, and I'm fairly certain it made to most viewers and readers the whole thing more interesting. There's something more mystical to a mystery that includes such elements then a typical detective story tend to have, I think this is the basic fan base of both Umineko and Higurashi too.

In the end, detective mysteries (those that respects the laws of physics at least) have a very limited number of possible solutions as far as the why dunnit goes. Most of the time it is resumed as "their emotions lead them to do these murders" and sometimes we can even have sympathy and understanding for these murders but it is not such a deep revealing mystery as sometimes fantasy or science fiction can achieve.
I am not saying that detective mysteries are bad, but they are mostly centered on who dunnit and how dunnit - because there's just that much of a limit on the why dunnit, despite what Will might say.

There's a reason why series like Lost go so popular and I think by bringing up fantasy over mystery, Ryuukishi wanted us readers to get that same sort of feeling. It's ironic in that sense that we mostly ended up rejecting anything that isn't fantasy and ultimately forced ourselves to deception by accepting a pretty ... bland... why dunnit.

[goldendust]

For me it's more saying why the author would write a story like this... which doesn't make the motive to be fantasy but to be in another catbox.


Each game is a catbox with a truth contained within it. Although that does not change the fact that there clear motive within it with hints spread throughout. That was shown when Eva-Beatrice made a red statement about Kirie's motive.

Culprit,crime and motive is all contained within each game with hints spread throughout.


What do we know about the realcharacter of everyone?
There are more hints about Kirye being capable to kill people than about Shannon being capable to do it.

Though we know Shannon didn't commit any murder in Prime.


Yeah but Kirie has no real connection to the existence Beatrice. Beatrice is the central figure behind the first four games with both Kanon and Shannon having the closest connection to her in every game.

About Shannon not commuting any murder on Prime. Is the proof based on that final scene in EP8 where Beatrice kills herself?


Actually it's because I've love for Shannon that I refuse to see her becoming a sociopath murderer just to get Battler's attention.

It was not Shannon who was the culprit but Beatrice who wants Batter's attention. Shannon loves George and passed on her feelings to Beatrice.

In EP4 we seen that Beatrice holds something against Battler for a sin that was not committed to Beatrice but for someone else. That is an indication that Beatrice's motive did originate with her as she did not exist and Battler's sin being one of the factors on why the murders occurred.


Though I still think Kinzo's actions are horrible they still don't compare to the murder of all the Ushiromiya plus the sevants.
Also we don't even know how much Nanjo knew about Beatrice 2's situation or how bad exactly it was.
Nanjo said Kinzo admitted he felt attraction for her but he might have learnt he got Beato pregnant after Beato was dead... if he got her pregnant because there's even the suspicion Yasu isn't her daughter but someone Kinzo picked up to replace her (and there's even the theory not even Beato is Kinzo's daughter).


There is a precedent that Nanjo would cover other people's crimes if put into the right situation.We seen time again and again that he covers for others.

The problem you seem to have is that severity of the crime would mean that Nanjo would not help cover up things. If that is a problem then the pressure to cover up the murders was also more severe.

In the games is said also that Eva and Eva-Beatrice are the same person and that it's Eva-BEatrice the culprit behind the deaths in EP 3... Eva do not suffer of split personality though and she's not even the culprit in EP 3, apart for maybe Battler's murder.

Eva-Beatrice is not the culprit behind all of the murders. However she did kill a few people such as Rosa and Maria. For one thing those murders did not really fit with past ones with elaborate close rooms murders. The MO does not fits as it looks more like murder done is passion.


There's a reason why series like Lost go so popular and I think by bringing up fantasy over mystery, Ryuukishi wanted us readers to get that same sort of feeling. It's ironic in that sense that we mostly ended up rejecting anything that isn't fantasy and ultimately forced ourselves to deception by accepting a pretty ... bland... why dunnit.

I think one of the themes in Umineko that fantasy is better and more comforting than mystery/reality. Reality will rarely live up to fantasy.

We a part of that when Bernkastel took a nice scene of Natsuhi talking with Beatrice and stripped away that illusion. As well the whole the theme of catboxs where anything is possible is better than a single truth.

In fact even the true form of Beatrice the scary, sneering and formidable witch has a rather pitiful form that she wants to hide. The truth of Beatrice is not great as the concept of an endless witch that can control life and death.

[GreyZone]

It was not Shannon who was the culprit but Beatrice who wants Batter's attention. Shannon loves George and passed on her feelings to Beatrice.

In EP4 we seen that Beatrice holds something against Battler for a sin that was not committed to Beatrice but for someone else. That is an indication that Beatrice's motive did originate with her as she did not exist and Battler's sin being one of the factors on why the murders occurred.

If we suppose that a harmless "murder mystery game" was done because of Battler's return, and that people not involved misunderstood the situation and became paraoid and started killing others, then there is no contradiction with ALL of Yasuda's "personas" to be innocent, as without Battler's return there wouldn't be a murder mystery game to begin witch.

But that of course depends on what you think Beato's red truth applied to. Because you came back to Rokkenjima, people die. Can be interpreted in many ways.


I think one of the themes in Umineko that fantasy is better and more comforting than mystery/reality. Reality will rarely live up to fantasy.

And that is the problem. You forget that mystery =/= reality. Battler said it himself: "If you were a detective and claimed that hidden doors don't exist, because they are not allowed to exist, then the people around you would check if you had some loose screws."

Aside from that there is also Legend o.t.g.W., where there have been no fantasy scenes until the Tea Party. But i guess you realized by now that some scenes were still "fictional".

And correct me if I am wrong, but I don't remember any fantasy scenes to be very heartwarming in WTC3. These "ohh fantasy is so nice"-scenes didn't exist until chiru... aside from some parts in EP3 and some scenes with Kanon/Shanon and their "lovers". Instead i remember an insane witch having fun killing people and reviving them, just to kill them once again, as many times as she wants.

[goldendust]

If we suppose that a harmless "murder mystery game" was done because of Battler's return, and that people not involved misunderstood the situation and became paraoid and started killing others, then there is no contradiction with ALL of Yasuda's "personas" to be innocent, as without Battler's return there wouldn't be a murder mystery game to begin witch.

But that of course depends on what you think Beato's red truth applied to. Because you came back to Rokkenjima, people die. Can be interpreted in many ways.


Well we do not know for sure how much the games applies to what happened on Rokujima prime but given that the stories were written by people that where for the most part.

Even accepting the whole mystery game premise if want to think that Yasuda did commit murder within her game that she set up for Battler.

There is plenty within EP 6-8 suggest that all of Yasuda is not entirely innocent at last as far the explosives are concerned.

In EP6 when Chick Beatrice spoke with "Mother". Keep in mind that she told Beatrice that she must wait for Battler to fulfill his promise. More importantly that one day that Beatrice will destroy and revive everything to being blessing to all lovers.

In EP7, Clair mentioned that she would have not been able to commit any crime/sin before the "days of trial" to which Will commented that her misfortune was to solve the epitaph and become a witch.

What she gained was a means to gain different accomplices with vast amount of wealth and the "other system" to invite everyone into the golden land.

Very likely that "the other" systems refers to the bomb that Yasuda has access to when she solved the epitaph. As well that inviting everyone into the golden land where all love is possible which refers to the explosion shutting up everyone within the cat box.

That is further expanded on within EP8 when Kannon and Shannon talk about how catbox allows conflicting future to exist. That was the heart of the problem between all of the personas. That only one could achieve love but with catbox it was possible for them all to achieve a happy future.


And that is the problem. You forget that mystery =/= reality. Battler said it himself: "If you were a detective and claimed that hidden doors don't exist, because they are not allowed to exist, then the people around you would check if you had some loose screws."

That is why I used a bracket within mystery/reality. The point is that mystery needs to be grounded within reality to a certain extent where fantasy does not.

Even in the horror genre, the imaginary can be more frighting than reality.




Aside from that there is also Legend o.t.g.W., where there have been no fantasy scenes until the Tea Party. But i guess you realized by now that some scenes were still "fictional".


Doesn't the scene with Kanon in EP1 count as fantasy? We seen golden butteries in that scene.

Well yes everything is fiction but there is difference between fiction and fantasy in Umineko. That is what Will's black blade did, cut out the fantasy away from the fiction within the first four games.


And correct me if I am wrong, but I don't remember any fantasy scenes to be very heartwarming in WTC3. These "ohh fantasy is so nice"-scenes didn't exist until chiru... aside from some parts in EP3 and some scenes with Kanon/Shanon and their "lovers". Instead i remember an insane witch having fun killing people and reviving them, just to kill them once again, as many times as she wants.

Also you have to consider EP2 where it easier to just blame the illusion of Beatrice for everything rather then suspect other humans of murder.

That is the point that I am trying to make. That more often then not that the fantasy can be better than reality. The way that Maria and Ange used magic was to cover up reality with pleasant fantasy. That Ange had magical friends that was always with her instead of the harsh reality that she is alone and nobody cares about her at all.

Motive is the same. A fantasy motive can be better then the actual one becasue one can shape it to their likings.

[Drifloon]

These "ohh fantasy is so nice"-scenes didn't exist until chiru... aside from some parts in EP3 and some scenes with Kanon/Shanon and their "lovers".

You forgot all those scenes with Ange and Maria in EP4?

[GreyZone]

And that is it. "shaping any fantasy you want" is what Beato did NOT want. She wanted to tell a fantasy story, with a certain message, she wanted to convey to Battler. But that was her problem. Battler didn't take the fantasy part seriously, as he did not know the world of Beato's fantasy. It is hard to explain, but what i mean is, she wants Battler to look for her message in the fantasy part and to make him look for it, she uses the mystery side to give him courage.

In short: the mysteries only exist as support for Battler to reach the truth in the fantasy. Maybe it is the promise? Or that she is not the murderer.

:rolleyes: This is all hard to answer, because we still don't know if the message bottles have been written pre- or post- incident. And if people cannot accept Ikuko as Yasuda, but instead go for RandomIkuko, then it becomes even more complicated, because half of the story was not even written by Yasuda herself...


You forgot all those scenes with Ange and Maria in EP4?

In my opinion that is unrelated, because they only concern Ange and have (almost) nothing to do with Beato's games. It has been implied, that Beato's and Ange's magic are different.

[jjblue1]

Each game is a catbox with a truth contained within it. Although that does not change the fact that there clear motive within it with hints spread throughout. That was shown when Eva-Beatrice made a red statement about Kirie's motive.

Culprit,crime and motive is all contained within each game with hints spread throughout.

Then which is Erika's motive for killing people in EP 6?
Has she gone mad/paranoud all of sudden?

It's a possible explanation that PieceErika's motive is she'd gone mad but the explanation we generally go for is that MetaErika moved her Piece in such way to generate a logic error.
As this action is OOC for PieceErika (we're nowhere said Erika was a psychokiller, though she surely has an unpleasant personality) her motive is weak.

Also we don't even know if Battler has guessed Kirye's motive right.
It could be that Kirye was bribed into dragging Hideyoshi out of the house or wanted to kill him because she believed him to be the culprit.
After all it wasn't Eva who was the culprit and it's unlikely Hideyoshi managed to kill Rudolf and Kirye who in return managed to shoot him to dead.

The cigarette butt might have been placed there by the real culprit in fact it's Beato who searches in the corpses' pockets so that Battler can notice the cigarette and do his own deduction about the motive.

Yeah but Kirie has no real connection to the existence Beatrice. Beatrice is the central figure behind the first four games with both Kanon and Shannon having the closest connection to her in every game.

About Shannon not commuting any murder on Prime. Is the proof based on that final scene in EP8 where Beatrice kills herself?

That can be a hint and a hint can be what was said in Ryukishi's interview.
Though personally I think Shannon can't be the culprit because I doubt Eva would cover up for her.

It was not Shannon who was the culprit but Beatrice who wants Batter's attention. Shannon loves George and passed on her feelings to Beatrice.

They share the same body though. This would make Shannon someone who suffer of multiple personality and one of those personalities is a sociopath murderer who's killing people just to get Battler's attention on Shannon.

In EP4 we seen that Beatrice holds something against Battler for a sin that was not committed to Beatrice but for someone else. That is an indication that Beatrice's motive did originate with her as she did not exist and Battler's sin being one of the factors on why the murders occurred.

Beatrice 'existed' as the witch who played pranks prior to Battler's sin.
Ep 6 represented her as Beato the elder.

There is a precedent that Nanjo would cover other people's crimes if put into the right situation.We seen time again and again that he covers for others.

The problem you seem to have is that severity of the crime would mean that Nanjo would not help cover up things. If that is a problem then the pressure to cover up the murders was also more severe.

You seem to imply that if Nanjo lied to cover up someone then Nanjo is capable of lying to cover up everything. As people aren't just black or white Nanjo might have drawn a line somewhere.
There are very few people who had never lied once in their life to cover up something but not everyone would be willing to lie to cover up a mass murder that might end up involving them as well.

How did Nanjo know Yasu wouldn't have killed him too?
And even if he believed she would have spared him how did he plan to explain to the police the situation once they would reach Rokkenjima?

Eva-Beatrice is not the culprit behind all of the murders. However she did kill a few people such as Rosa and Maria. For one thing those murders did not really fit with past ones with elaborate close rooms murders. The MO does not fits as it looks more like murder done is passion.

We don't know if she actually killed them. All we're shown is a magic scene in which EvaBeatrice killed and resurrected them and then it was Beato who killed them for good.

It's possible the culprit was Eva, it's possible the culprit was Yasu.
Actually considering it was Maria who persuaded her mother to leave the house it's easy to assume that Yasu said something that influenced Maria's behaviour so that she dragged Rosa out of the house making easier for her to kill them.

I think one of the themes in Umineko that fantasy is better and more comforting than mystery/reality. Reality will rarely live up to fantasy.

Through Umineko ends up also showing that fantasy can't replace reality.
Beato wants to be acknowledged by real people, Ange rejects her fantsy friends because they can't just be enough, Kinzo ends up hurting his own daughter and losing her and so on.

Fantasy might be nice and conforting but in the long run if you indulge too much in it you get more pain than gain.

If we suppose that a harmless "murder mystery game" was done because of Battler's return, and that people not involved misunderstood the situation and became paraoid and started killing others, then there is no contradiction with ALL of Yasuda's "personas" to be innocent, as without Battler's return there wouldn't be a murder mystery game to begin witch.

Exactly

But that of course depends on what you think Beato's red truth applied to. Because you came back to Rokkenjima, people die. Can be interpreted in many ways.

The fun part is that the reverse of that red truth doesn't necessary work.
Battler didn't come on Rokkenjima in Lion's world and yet people died just the same.

And that is the problem. You forget that mystery =/= reality. Battler said it himself: "If you were a detective and claimed that hidden doors don't exist, because they are not allowed to exist, then the people around you would check if you had some loose screws."

*nods* yes, that's true. We tend to think that mistery is more realistic than fantasy because it follows more rules that work in the real world but, in the end, it also has some 'fantasy' elements.

[UsagiTenpura]

If we suppose that a harmless "murder mystery game" was done because of Battler's return, and that people not involved misunderstood the situation and became paraoid and started killing others, then there is no contradiction with ALL of Yasuda's "personas" to be innocent, as without Battler's return there wouldn't be a murder mystery game to begin witch.

But that of course depends on what you think Beato's red truth applied to. Because you came back to Rokkenjima, people die. Can be interpreted in many ways.




And that is the problem. You forget that mystery =/= reality. Battler said it himself: "If you were a detective and claimed that hidden doors don't exist, because they are not allowed to exist, then the people around you would check if you had some loose screws."

Aside from that there is also Legend o.t.g.W., where there have been no fantasy scenes until the Tea Party. But i guess you realized by now that some scenes were still "fictional".

And correct me if I am wrong, but I don't remember any fantasy scenes to be very heartwarming in WTC3. These "ohh fantasy is so nice"-scenes didn't exist until chiru... aside from some parts in EP3 and some scenes with Kanon/Shanon and their "lovers". Instead i remember an insane witch having fun killing people and reviving them, just to kill them once again, as many times as she wants.

Fantasy is heartwarming right in arc 1.
Battler at one points breaks down and start crying and ask for Beatrice to make a murder that definitively couldn't have been done by humans, so they would stop being at each other's throat from the start.

Also, what about things like when Natsuhi enters Kinzo's room and he tells her a speech about how she inherited his will and has the eagle engraved in her heart and all that. Or iono, like broken down Kinzo crying and having Beatrice saying "you fool.... without love you cannot see me" or something like that? What about arc 3 where "good witch and bad witch" are put into opposition (twice, Virgilia vs Beatrice at first, and Beatrice vs Eva Beato later)?

You can find many if you try to. Well you did say "correct me if I'm wrong", so done.

[goldendust]

Then which is Erika's motive for killing people in EP 6?
Has she gone mad/paranoud all of sudden?

It's a possible explanation that PieceErika's motive is she'd gone mad but the explanation we generally go for is that MetaErika moved her Piece in such way to generate a logic error.
As this action is OOC for PieceErika (we're nowhere said Erika was a psychokiller, though she surely has an unpleasant personality) her motive is weak.


Well that is one possible explanation. We have to consider that it was said that pieces cannot act too much OOC in EP5.

About EP6, I am not sure how much that as a valid game considering the blatant tampering on Erika's part and Battler's retroactive changes to the story. I do not think we saw Batter as a piece ever act like that nor ever shown awareness about his status as a piece.

More so that the end was never really allowed to end one way or another. That game concluded with just fixing the logic error due to Erika playing a different role in the story then intended.


Also we don't even know if Battler has guessed Kirye's motive right.
It could be that Kirye was bribed into dragging Hideyoshi out of the house or wanted to kill him because she believed him to be the culprit.
After all it wasn't Eva who was the culprit and it's unlikely Hideyoshi managed to kill Rudolf and Kirye who in return managed to shoot him to dead.

The cigarette butt might have been placed there by the real culprit in fact it's Beato who searches in the corpses' pockets so that Battler can notice the cigarette and do his own deduction about the motive.

A large point of EP3 was to help Battler after his abysmal failure in EP2. Beatrice dumped a lot of hints within the game. That no unknown person can exist, the catbox metaphor, the pony promise that Batter made etc. The whole EP has been basically training wheels for Battler.

Unlikely but not impossible. Depending on the circumstances, it is possible that Hideyoshi was able to kill them both but got killed himself.

Beatrice was helping Battler since he could not do it himself. Like I said that EP3 was basically training wheels for Battler.



That can be a hint and a hint can be what was said in Ryukishi's interview.
Though personally I think Shannon can't be the culprit because I doubt Eva would cover up for her.


Why? Eva is desperate to gain money for her husband's sake as well deisred the headship since her youth. Something that was within Yasuda's means to give her if Eva agreed.

Will said to Claire that thanks to solving the epitaph that vast wealth allowed to pick up different accomplices.


They share the same body though. This would make Shannon someone who suffer of multiple personality and one of those personalities is a sociopath murderer who's killing people just to get Battler's attention on Shannon.

Yes the story portrays them as incomplete souls born from Yasuda's soul or in other words multiple personalities.



Beatrice 'existed' as the witch who played pranks prior to Battler's sin.
Ep 6 represented her as Beato the elder.

I meant that the Beatrice that Batter was beeing faced with as shown by the red truth

Six years ago for me, no person called Beatrice existed.

The sin I am now demanding that you remember is not between Ushiromiya Battler and Beatrice.


That is a hint in EP4 of Beatrice's origin. EP3 introduced the concept of a witch being born from a human so it is possible to make that connection.


You seem to imply that if Nanjo lied to cover up someone then Nanjo is capable of lying to cover up everything. As people aren't just black or white Nanjo might have drawn a line somewhere.
There are very few people who had never lied once in their life to cover up something but not everyone would be willing to lie to cover up a mass murder that might end up involving them as well.

No I am suggesting that Nanjo's role was to cover up the life/death status of certain people like he was doing the whole time with Kinzo. People trust Nanjo as a doctor and Nanjo himself is an accomplished liar who aided other in the pasts in their ill deeds.

Of course people lie and can draw the line somewhere but like I said Nanjo is not "everyone" nor he is an entirely honest man, we do not know where he would draw the line.

With a vast amount of wealth and potential threat. Why would not be possible for Nanjo to aid a murder by lying about life/death statuses?


How did Nanjo know Yasu wouldn't have killed him too?
And even if he believed she would have spared him how did he plan to explain to the police the situation once they would reach Rokkenjima?

Like with accomplices and murderers. He trusted Yasuda to not kill him or he was forced into helping like Nastuhi did indirectly in EP5.

The explosives would remove all of the evidence, Nanjo can just say that like Eva that he escaped. What are they going to convict him with? If Eva did not go to prison, the family doctor certainly would not.


We don't know if she actually killed them. All we're shown is a magic scene in which EvaBeatrice killed and resurrected them and then it was Beato who killed them for good.

Of course we do not know although a lot hints towards it. The most glaring is the method of murder.


Fantasy might be nice and conforting but in the long run if you indulge too much in it you get more pain than gain.


Indeed in some cases fantasy being a comforting lie does not work. However in one of your examples like Ange, they story portrayed that giving up on fantasy friends was a negative thing.

Although if you consider the magic vs trick ending that the magic one where Ange believes in magic and blindly hopes that someone will return is the most positive one.

[GreyZone]

Fantasy is heartwarming right in arc 1.
Battler at one points breaks down and start crying and ask for Beatrice to make a murder that definitively couldn't have been done by humans, so they would stop being at each other's throat from the start.

Also, what about things like when Natsuhi enters Kinzo's room and he tells her a speech about how she inherited his will and has the eagle engraved in her heart and all that. Or iono, like broken down Kinzo crying and having Beatrice saying "you fool.... without love you cannot see me" or something like that? What about arc 3 where "good witch and bad witch" are put into opposition (twice, Virgilia vs Beatrice at first, and Beatrice vs Eva Beato later)?

You can find many if you try to. Well you did say "correct me if I'm wrong", so done.

Sorry, but I think you misunderstood me. For me at least it is Fantasy =/= Fiction/Lie.
Tell me honestly... when you read/watched EP1, did you really know that Kinzo's talk with Natsuhi was a delusion/lie? Or were you convinced that the death of Kanon was a fake scene or just really magic? I at least didn't. The setting was completly that of a mystery. Unlike the later Episodes, the scenes without Battler lacked the usual "magic shows".

And in EP2-4 most magic scenes, where something good happened, ended with a tragedy. In EP2 all happy magic scenes ended up with everyones death at the end. First Jessica and Kanon, then George and Shanon. In EP3 similary, after Beato finally did something good, Eva-Beato fries her... and the reason why it stopped was a META scene and additionally it was done by Battler who was clearly Anti-Fantasy.

Now that I think about it... wasn't almost every death in EP2-4 a horror-fantasy?

[jjblue1]

Well that is one possible explanation. We have to consider that it was said that pieces cannot act too much OOC in EP5.

Erika going mad is, as far as I'm involved, an unsatisfing motive for her to commit murder.

About EP6, I am not sure how much that as a valid game considering the blatant tampering on Erika's part and Battler's retroactive changes to the story. I do not think we saw Batter as a piece ever act like that nor ever shown awareness about his status as a piece.

Like how? He's just playing a prank. If you want an OOC Battler you've to go for EP 5. In it he solved easily an epitaph he previously couldn't figure out and cooperated in staging fake murders likely with the purpose of blackmailing Natsuhi.

A large point of EP3 was to help Battler after his abysmal failure in EP2. Beatrice dumped a lot of hints within the game. That no unknown person can exist, the catbox metaphor, the pony promise that Batter made etc. The whole EP has been basically training wheels for Battler.

This don't make impossible the fact that it was Yasu who placed there the cigarette butt.

Unlikely but not impossible. Depending on the circumstances, it is possible that Hideyoshi was able to kill them both but got killed himself.

The games are supposed to have a single culprit, Yasu. Now you're creating 3, Eva, Hideyoshi and Yasu.
Also, Rudolf and Kirye were skilled with weapons while Hideyoshi was not and, according to your theory, Kirye suspected of him.
Two people skilled with weapons and wary against one who's unskilled and might not know he's being suspected. The chances are so low Hideyoshi needs a miracle to accomplish this.

Why? Eva is desperate to gain money for her husband's sake as well deisred the headship since her youth. Something that was within Yasuda's means to give her if Eva agreed.

I'm speaking of how she shouldered the blame for the Rokenjima incident after it took place.
If Yasu is dead it would have been easy to place the blame on the 'mad maid who thought to be Kinzo's heir'. If Yasu is alive likely Eva wishes for revenge for the dead of George and Hideyoshi.
In both cases I doubt she would just take the blame and cover up for Yasu...

Yes the story portrays them as incomplete souls born from Yasuda's soul or in other words multiple personalities.

There was someone in the past who better explained how multiple personalities doesn't work the way we see in Umineko.

No I am suggesting that Nanjo's role was to cover up the life/death status of certain people like he was doing the whole time with Kinzo. People trust Nanjo as a doctor and Nanjo himself is an accomplished liar who aided other in the pasts in their ill deeds.

Of course people lie and can draw the line somewhere but like I said Nanjo is not "everyone" nor he is an entirely honest man, we do not know where he would draw the line.

With a vast amount of wealth and potential threat. Why would not be possible for Nanjo to aid a murder by lying about life/death statuses?

Because nowhere he's depicted as a man who has a thirst for money and would kill/aid someone else to kill to get it.

Of course we do not know although a lot hints towards it. The most glaring is the method of murder.

Beato didn't always make closed room murders.
In Ep 1 when Kanon is killed there'a a door that lead outside and that's not closed.
In Ep 2 Nanjo and Kumasawa apparently welcomed in their murderer.
In Ep 3 the only closed room murders are the ones of the first twilight and the one of George.
The same applies to Ep 4 where Maria is killed again and Beato uses poison to murder her.

I don't really see any problem in her causing Rosa and Maria to leave the house and then cause Rosa to die in such a way to after kill Maria through strangulation.
Note that Beato (well, chick Beato) attempted to strangulate someone in EP 6 as well.

Indeed in some cases fantasy being a comforting lie does not work. However in one of your examples like Ange, they story portrayed that giving up on fantasy friends was a negative thing.

The problem isn't that Age gave up on her magic friends but that she relied on them and when she was forced to crash with reality that they couldn't do a single thing she gave up on them.
The negative thing is that she relied on them, not that she gave up on them.
Fantasy isn't bad per se, it's when you start to live in a fantasy world that things tend to go bad.
If Ange hadn't blindly trusted in her friends to solve her problems but had remained aware they were just fantasies she wouldn't have put her hopes in them.

Through probably that scene is a mere metaphor to represent how she had reached a breaking point where not even fantasy could help her being happy as it can't solve her problems in the real world.

Although if you consider the magic vs trick ending that the magic one where Ange believes in magic and blindly hopes that someone will return is the most positive one.

Because that one is a completely different type of magic.
Hoping for something that has a chance at happening, although a low one, isn't lying to herself about something she knows for sure to be false.
Also, while she hoped, she still tried to live in the real world instead than closing herself in the fantasy world of her hope.

Her stance is completely different from the one she had at school where she acted like she believed her magic friends to be real and tried to cut herself from the real world.

[AuraTwilight]

There was someone in the past who better explained how multiple personalities doesn't work the way we see in Umineko.

That'd be me. At best, Yasu is a very emotionally unstable actress.

[UsagiTenpura]

Sorry, but I think you misunderstood me. For me at least it is Fantasy =/= Fiction/Lie.
Tell me honestly... when you read/watched EP1, did you really know that Kinzo's talk with Natsuhi was a delusion/lie? Or were you convinced that the death of Kanon was a fake scene or just really magic? I at least didn't. The setting was completly that of a mystery. Unlike the later Episodes, the scenes without Battler lacked the usual "magic shows".
Actually yes, I always thought Kinzo was already dead. No matter if they appeared before in the narrative, character only gets a character file in the r_click menu when Battler sees them, except for Kinzo, giving away that he wasn't a real person.

Also, the point is not that fantasy is like, good, and mystery evil, like you seem to suggest we think. It's about how fantasy makes a STORY that in itself is more heartwarming. If anything, the very end of Umineko has Ange reviving everyone. Good luck reaching that with mystery alone.

[GreyZone]

Well it seems my view was a bit different, because i was "Anime-first"....

Anyway, you still don't get what I want to say... for example the scene with Kanon, Genji and Kumasawa "finding" the guestroom with Eva and George death. As we all got to know now, it did not really happen, but the scene still looked plausible, and as long as we think about a reliable narrator, we will probably believe in that scene. There was no "magic" aside form the magic circle, that however really existed. My point is until EP1 TP there are no "flying stakes that transform into girls"...

And that was just about Legend o.t.g.W.


Then from EP2 onwards we get Beato's magic shows with goats fighting etc.

While you could say "it is good that it's none of the people that Battler knows" is a good and "heartwarming" thing, in (almost) every single twilight there is a scene described, how the victim becomes torn into pieces very detailed, mixed with "classical" music to make this look as if the murderer actually enjoys that.

The "hearwarming" scenes were clearly overshadowed, sometimes even interupted by the horror scenes.

[goldendust]

Like how? He's just playing a prank. If you want an OOC Battler you've to go for EP 5. In it he solved easily an epitaph he previously couldn't figure out and cooperated in staging fake murders likely with the purpose of blackmailing Natsuhi.


Though didn't when Battler said that "Battler" was not him that Dlanor commented that pieces cannot act beyond their role as characters. Not to mention that Erika helped Battler out in EP5.

About the "fake" murders to blackmail Natsuhi. Weren't the corpses cut in such a way that fake death would be impossible?

This don't make impossible the fact that it was Yasu who placed there the cigarette butt.

Of course not but it does go against the general premise of the game that was meant to help out Battler.


The games are supposed to have a single culprit, Yasu. Now you're creating 3, Eva, Hideyoshi and Yasu.
Also, Rudolf and Kirye were skilled with weapons while Hideyoshi was not and, according to your theory, Kirye suspected of him.
Two people skilled with weapons and wary against one who's unskilled and might not know he's being suspected. The chances are so low Hideyoshi needs a miracle to accomplish this.

You are forgetting that that murders are suppose to cease when the epitaph has been solved. Beatrice via the agreement should have ceased the murders based on the epitaph order. Beatrice had to stop killing via the epitaph due to her own agreement that she will cease "collecting interest".

Also what prevents other characters from committing murder for example self-defense? It seemed that Eva shot Battler in a state of delusion no?

It is indeed a low chance but it is not as unlikely as you think. Also unless I am misremembering something wasn't it mentioned that Hideyoshi used a weapon before?

Regardless I do not see it as that unlikely. Within the games, Meta Beatrice used pretty nasty tricks to make murders look confusing. Considering the first trick of EP3 and using the red truth in the end.


I'm speaking of how she shouldered the blame for the Rokenjima incident after it took place.
If Yasu is dead it would have been easy to place the blame on the 'mad maid who thought to be Kinzo's heir'. If Yasu is alive likely Eva wishes for revenge for the dead of George and Hideyoshi.
In both cases I doubt she would just take the blame and cover up for Yasu...


I thought you were referring to the games. Will mentioned that Yasuda was able to get her accomplices due to vast wealth she obtained.

Fine lets talk about Prime. Just one thing that I always wondered about.

Is it possible that maybe Eva is not 100% innocent within Prime? I know it is shocking to consider since it seems that she wants Ange to think that she was behind it.

However there is one thing to consider. Eva has the ring of the head and knowledge of the hidden mansion that was able to avoid the explosives. So from whom did Eva get the ring and the knowledge to avoid the explosives? Kinzo is dead so he couldn't have passed on the ring. The true head is Yasuda who Kinzo gave all of his wealth including the vast amount of gold.

What if Prime Yasuda gave Eva the ring and passed on the headship to her. That Eva might have some role within the incident that she directly or indirectly caused some of the events.

On why Eva takes the blame. I do attribute that to two reasons

-someone in Ange's family had a role in the incident which Eva did want to burdin Ange with
-Eva felt a certain futility in trying to change the truth as everyone thinks as her as the culprit even if a 'mad maid who thought to be Kinzo's heir' killed everyone that she cannot prove it.
-Eva was traumatized by the incident and like most traumatized people rather avoid thinking about the incident


There was someone in the past who better explained how multiple personalities doesn't work the way we see in Umineko.

Multiple personality syndrome has vastly different portrayals within fictional works. Even in psychology is a debatable if it really exists. Ryukishi use of it is pretty common in fiction.

That troubled people have multiple personalities to deal with difficulties. This is made most clearly within Umineko within EP6. That "Mother" had all of her love transfered into "Beatrice" becasue she was unable to love Battler any longer.

Because nowhere he's depicted as a man who has a thirst for money and would kill/aid someone else to kill to get it.

Yet he is depicted as liar who aids others in their schemes/crimes. You seem to have a problem with that due to nature of the schemes/crimes but it is essentially the same.



Beato didn't always make closed room murders.
In Ep 1 when Kanon is killed there'a a door that lead outside and that's not closed.
In Ep 2 Nanjo and Kumasawa apparently welcomed in their murderer.
In Ep 3 the only closed room murders are the ones of the first twilight and the one of George.
The same applies to Ep 4 where Maria is killed again and Beato uses poison to murder her.


Not close room murders but just the feel of the murders. They have the feel of accidental murder and another murder that resulted due to the first one.

Within the TIP it was mentioned that Rosa's death might have been seen as an "accident" if Maira was not killed after Rosa. Using the TIPS, it sounds more like that the murders were done in passion. That Rosa's death was accidental and Maria was done in reaction to Rosa' death.(started crying and was silenced)

Will's answer within EP3 like "the obvious culprit wields a mutable blade" give more indication about who was behind some of the murders.



Through probably that scene is a mere metaphor to represent how she had reached a breaking point where not even fantasy could help her being happy as it can't solve her problems in the real world.


Indeed it did show that Ange misunderstood the nature of magic and fantasy. Magic is a gentle lie but a lie nonetheless.

However that does not exactly change that returning to magic and fantasy is still portrayed as a positive choice rather than facing harsh and grim reality.


Because that one is a completely different type of magic.
Hoping for something that has a chance at happening, although a low one, isn't lying to herself about something she knows for sure to be false.
Also, while she hoped, she still tried to live in the real world instead than closing herself in the fantasy world of her hope.

Her stance is completely different from the one she had at school where she acted like she believed her magic friends to be real and tried to cut herself from the real world

Blindly hoping means that that one has hope without anything to base on it. That is what Agne has been doing for many years.

[jjblue1]

Though didn't when Battler said that "Battler" was not him that Dlanor commented that pieces cannot act beyond their role as characters. Not to mention that Erika helped Battler out in EP5.

If Piece Battler can't act out of character it doesn't matter who moves him.
And no, Erika doesn't really help Battler out. They came to the same conclusions at around the same time so at best Erika confirmed Battler's deductions (and suggested searching for a atlas... though since Battler too was in the library he might have gone there with that purpose already).

About the "fake" murders to blackmail Natsuhi. Weren't the corpses cut in such a way that fake death would be impossible?

Yes but we've no reliable witnesses about said cuts. And the 'corpses' walked away from where they were and they were NEVER moved after they died. Ergo they died after they were declared dead. People lied about them being dead, Erika didn't witnessed them (they were covered), they walked away and after they left the room they were in they were killed.

Of course not but it does go against the general premise of the game that was meant to help out Battler.

She helped Battler out. He figured out an answer to fight against EvaBeatrice's red, didn't he?

You are forgetting that that murders are suppose to cease when the epitaph has been solved. Beatrice via the agreement should have ceased the murders based on the epitaph order. Beatrice had to stop killing via the epitaph due to her own agreement that she will cease "collecting interest".

Yet we know for sure Yasu killed Nanjo so she didn't stop.
There are two popular theories about why the serial murders didn't stop with the discovery of the gold, the first is that Eva didn't inform anyone about discovering the gold so pieceYasu didn't know and went on with her plan.
The second is that Eva didn't really solve the epitaph but was handed/promised the solution by Yasu in exchange for her to act a certain way and she realized too late what this had caused.

Also what prevents other characters from committing murder for example self-defense? It seemed that Eva shot Battler in a state of delusion no?

The idea behind the games is that the culprit has to be Yasu. If we start with Eva and Hideyoshi being the main culprits we take away Battler's interest from Yasu.
Your plot for Ep 3 doesn't set up Eva as accidentally killing Rosa and Maria but purposely doing it and the same can be said for Hideyoshi... unless you want to widen the rose of murders and say that Kirye and Rudolf tried to kill him first.

It is indeed a low chance but it is not as unlikely as you think. Also unless I am misremembering something wasn't it mentioned that Hideyoshi used a weapon before?

Once. With a pistol. Back in the past. And we're told Winchesters aren't so easily to use and expecially to recharge if you aren't used to them. Even assuming he managed to shoot once he would have troubles doing it easily twice.

Fine lets talk about Prime. Just one thing that I always wondered about.

Is it possible that maybe Eva is not 100% innocent within Prime? I know it is shocking to consider since it seems that she wants Ange to think that she was behind it.

If the games also contain an inner truth about Prime as Ryukishi seemed to imply in an interview is likely to assume that Eva might have:

- shoot by mistake (Ep 3-7), be willing to shoot for self defence/her family's defence (Ep 3-7), have shoot for revenge (Ep 7).

Surely in Prime Yasu (or possibly Genji) informed Eva and likely Battler about the underground passage and the bomb and waved around Kinzo's ring.

However the money that was supposed to bribe people was used for Nanjo, Kumasawa and Rudolf. There's no mention Eva received it, although since there were many boxes in the bank it's possible that everyone who was on the island was bribed into something.

Ryukishi also said:

One of the things that you can really know from within the story is that „Eva knew something but decided to never to tell Ange about it.“. Based on that many different things have been said in the meta world, and there were also several depictions that hinted at the truth, and it might be a common factor that interpretations on that will diverge. If you start thinking from that point though, even if some small parts are different, you can guess that on this island „a regretable incident happened because of certain actions that those people took“.

As Eva in Prime dies if she were really guilty she might have confessed before dying but she did not. Since Ange wanted Eva to be guilty and the book of one truth contained the truth once Ange had read it she would have been satisfied but she wasn't.

Ergo, even if it's possible Eva did something, it likely was something 'minor' that wouldn't label her as the sole/main culprit.

Multiple personality syndrome has vastly different portrayals within fictional works. Even in psychology is a debatable if it really exists. Ryukishi use of it is pretty common in fiction.

That troubled people have multiple personalities to deal with difficulties. This is made most clearly within Umineko within EP6. That "Mother" had all of her love transfered into "Beatrice" becasue she was unable to love Battler any longer.

Personally I think if Umineko aimed at having a multiple personality theory for Yasu then Maria and Jessica too would suffer of it (Jessica even encouraged Kanon to create another self within himself) while the game goes on explaining how they don't do it.

It's much more logic to consider the various characters Yasu created are nothing else but masks.
Shannon represents the face she is supposed to show to the world, Beato her inner desires.

Yet he is depicted as liar who aids others in their schemes/crimes. You seem to have a problem with that due to nature of the schemes/crimes but it is essentially the same.

No, the 'crimes' he covers up are pretty different even if the sin is the same.
Covering up Kinzo's death can't remotely compare to aiding a mass murderer.

Not close room murders but just the feel of the murders. They have the feel of accidental murder and another murder that resulted due to the first one.

I've the feeling we're running in circles with this one. Let's just agree to disagree and be done with it.

However that does not exactly change that returning to magic and fantasy is still portrayed as a positive choice rather than facing harsh and grim reality.

I wouldn't say Ange returned to fantasy in Ep 8 but that she choses to hope. Fantasy is something that can't become true while hope is something that has a chance to become true.
She adopted a more positive outlook and faced reality, didn't escape from it.
Although she hoped in Battler's return she didn't pretend he was around and continued to live in the real world, working and interacting with real people.

If you want she chose to believe in Kinzo's magic, the one who has low chances to become real but still has chances. The fact that the seven sisters were with her instead had zero chances of being true.

I guess Umineko wanted to draw a line between living in a world of fantasies and continuing to hope in a positive outcome.

Even Will said something similar:

"So don't lose heart! Keep on struggling and struggling...!! Don't look for a miracle... Be one!!"
"......Be......a miracle......"
"You're gonna reach a happy future. You can't give up, and you can't complain. Just you try complaining one more time. This time I'll pinch your ass...!"

Blindly hoping means that that one has hope without anything to base on it. That is what Agne has been doing for many years.

Although there is no proof Battler is still alive there are also no proof he's surely dead. She's hoping for someone that has a possiblility of happening while, at the same time, not letting that hope to control her life.

It'll be different if she'd been hoping Maria would come back when pieces of Maria were found on the island or if she was devoting all her life to wait for Battler's return.

Hope is a positive thing, something that keep human going on, the last to die or as the Latins said 'Spes, Ultima Dea'.

[UsagiTenpura]

Well it seems my view was a bit different, because i was "Anime-first"....

Anyway, you still don't get what I want to say... for example the scene with Kanon, Genji and Kumasawa "finding" the guestroom with Eva and George death. As we all got to know now, it did not really happen, but the scene still looked plausible, and as long as we think about a reliable narrator, we will probably believe in that scene. There was no "magic" aside form the magic circle, that however really existed. My point is until EP1 TP there are no "flying stakes that transform into girls"...

And that was just about Legend o.t.g.W.


Then from EP2 onwards we get Beato's magic shows with goats fighting etc.

While you could say "it is good that it's none of the people that Battler knows" is a good and "heartwarming" thing, in (almost) every single twilight there is a scene described, how the victim becomes torn into pieces very detailed, mixed with "classical" music to make this look as if the murderer actually enjoys that.

The "hearwarming" scenes were clearly overshadowed, sometimes even interupted by the horror scenes.

Well there is like, Yasu able to successfully murder everyone without failling once, even when the odds are against him/her. Or perhaps the magical transformation from Shannon into Kanon over and over with perfect timings.
To me that sort of fantasy is way more "fantasy" then flying stakes. Matter of view. What does matter tho is that, at least I think, when people refer to fantasy they don't seperate things to the point you do. Fantasy = scene that didn't happen in mystery. Otherwise it just means that like, when Ronove and Beatrice are talking, it's not fantasy, because talking doesn't break the laws of physics.

Also, well, dead people talking do break the laws of physics a lot (I mean, arc 1 has that a lot, you can't say there's no pure fantasy).

But anyway you seem to think I suggest fantasy are "good" and this is really not the case. It's just like Higurashi in the end. Fantasy/sci-fi elements didn't exactly make things any happier, but it was heartwarming to learn that you know, it's not a serie about just people snapping and senselessly murder others without much sense being behind the whole thing, like some j-horror movies tend to be.
It's the same thing with Umineko, arc 5 made quite a point about that logic.
Also, magic became well... more obvious, because without that people would still try to reason out things without considering some scenes to be "fantasies". We didn't get it, so Ryuukishi put it in our face. Arc 2 still wasn't enough, so he went with ridiculously epic magic battle in arc 3 and 4.

Hope we understand each other's view now ^^;;

[goldendust]

If Piece Battler can't act out of character it doesn't matter who moves him.
And no, Erika doesn't really help Battler out. They came to the same conclusions at around the same time so at best Erika confirmed Battler's deductions (and suggested searching for a atlas... though since Battler too was in the library he might have gone there with that purpose already).

Consider the Umineko game to a game of chess(which is done very often). Pieces have certain limitations and only can preform moves within their limitations. No matter how you move them, they have to act in a certain way.

You cannot make a pawn move diagonally. Even the queen who can move the freely within chess is limited as it cannot move like a knight.

I always had the impression that Battler solved it thanks to bouncing his ideas to Erika and vice-versa.


Yes but we've no reliable witnesses about said cuts. And the 'corpses' walked away from where they were and they were NEVER moved after they died. Ergo they died after they were declared dead. People lied about them being dead, Erika didn't witnessed them (they were covered), they walked away and after they left the room they were in they were killed.

Ah yes, it has been a while since I read that episode. IIRC wasn't one of the red truth that an autopsy would have not mistaken the corpses. It would seem extremely difficult to fake wouldn't it?

She helped Battler out. He figured out an answer to fight against EvaBeatrice's red, didn't he?

Yes that is what I have been saying. Beatrice designed the game that there would be evidence and found it for Battler. Battler just had to be 2 and 2 together.


Yet we know for sure Yasu killed Nanjo so she didn't stop.
There are two popular theories about why the serial murders didn't stop with the discovery of the gold, the first is that Eva didn't inform anyone about discovering the gold so pieceYasu didn't know and went on with her plan.
The second is that Eva didn't really solve the epitaph but was handed/promised the solution by Yasu in exchange for her to act a certain way and she realized too late what this had caused.

I don't know. Somehow the idea that Piece Yasuda would have no means of seeing who solves the epitaph seems unlikely if you consider the vast amount of preperation put into the crimes. More so that like in EP7 Tea Party that Yasuda is prone to hide in the same area as the gold until she proceeds to commit more murders.

Although the two theories do make sense.


The idea behind the games is that the culprit has to be Yasu. If we start with Eva and Hideyoshi being the main culprits we take away Battler's interest from Yasu.
Your plot for Ep 3 doesn't set up Eva as accidentally killing Rosa and Maria but purposely doing it and the same can be said for Hideyoshi... unless you want to widen the rose of murders and say that Kirye and Rudolf tried to kill him first.


No it does not, the game was made in such way that Eva is made to be the culprit going as far to call the witch of the game "Eva-Beatrice". However certain parts of the game were designed that Battler could not solve it by only using "Eva is the culprit" theory. It would make sense that it is part of the answer but not all of it.

Besides the 3rd game was largely about giving Battler tools to figure out others games. The mysteries were still as difficult and vexing as ever except that Beatrice helped Battler all the way through.


If the games also contain an inner truth about Prime as Ryukishi seemed to imply in an interview is likely to assume that Eva might have: - shoot by mistake (Ep 3-7), be willing to shoot for self defence/her family's defence (Ep 3-7), have shoot for revenge (Ep 7).

Indeed, although I suspect that she might have unwittingly caused a greater incident. While EP7 tea party is dubious at best, I do suspect that Eva played a similar role within Prime. Maybe did not literally shoot someone but possibly did something to spark the incident.

Surely in Prime Yasu (or possibly Genji) informed Eva and likely Battler about the underground passage and the bomb and waved around Kinzo's ring.

That is the thing though. If Battler and Eva both were told a way to avoid the explosives, what caused them to separate? The most likely answer is that Eva or Battler did not trust the other.


As Eva in Prime dies if she were really guilty she might have confessed before dying but she did not. Since Ange wanted Eva to be guilty and the book of one truth contained the truth once Ange had read it she would have been satisfied but she wasn't.

Ange wanted Eva to be the evil mastermind behind the incident. If the truth that she was just a sad woman who made a mistake and the only incident was just a result of tragic choices people made, it would be an unsatisfying truth for Ange.


Personally I think if Umineko aimed at having a multiple personality theory for Yasu then Maria and Jessica too would suffer of it (Jessica even encouraged Kanon to create another self within himself) while the game goes on explaining how they don't do it.

It's much more logic to consider the various characters Yasu created are nothing else but masks.
Shannon represents the face she is supposed to show to the world, Beato her inner desires.


I think that makes more sense as well but we are talking about within the context of the story. Maria during one of her "witch" moments are not portrayed as a different character altogether. Even "Jessie" is not either. I am not sure how that comparison holds.

The only character who has something comparable is Eva whose inner self becomes separated once she becomes a "witch"(sound similar?).

Also keep in mind Claire's "we are one but many", Yasuda's gender identity, and how the whole incident snowballed when "she become a witch". I do not think that Kannon, Shannon and Beatrice are masks but rather personas that tother compose Yasuda.



No, the 'crimes' he covers up are pretty different even if the sin is the same.
Covering up Kinzo's death can't remotely compare to aiding a mass murderer.

Lets just agree to disagree here, I do not think that either of us is going to budge on this point.


I've the feeling we're running in circles with this one. Let's just agree to disagree and be done with it.


Okay :heh:


I guess Umineko wanted to draw a line between living in a world of fantasies and continuing to hope in a positive outcome.

I agree. I suppose you could call that hoping for best case scenario despite nigh-impossible odds.

A slightly cynical person would consider that to be foolish dreaming that borders on living in a fantasy.

[GreyZone]

@UsagiTenpura: Well ok. The only thing i wanted to say is that in chiru magic was shown in a much more positive light, compared to EP1-4 and that EP1 was different to EP2-4 because the fantasy scenes were at least "less obivious" and there was no META till the TP.
I agree with everything else you said.

[jjblue1]

I always had the impression that Battler solved it thanks to bouncing his ideas to Erika and vice-versa.

That's not really how it's presented since Battler offered his solutions and Erika confirmed them. Battler exposes his reasoning and erika praises him and says 'yes, I also thought so...'. Though since Bern is controlling both Battler & Erika to her having the two of them discuss would likely sound like having a monologue with two different voices so it's likely she chose to have Battler do all the deducing and Erika confirm it.

Ah yes, it has been a while since I read that episode. IIRC wasn't one of the red truth that an autopsy would have not mistaken the corpses. It would seem extremely difficult to fake wouldn't it?

Yes, the trick is that they lied in saying they saw George and Co had their throats sliced, not that they mistaked them for dead.

Yes that is what I have been saying. Beatrice designed the game that there would be evidence and found it for Battler. Battler just had to be 2 and 2 together.

The point is not necessarily the solution Battler found is the right one, only one that can be accepted. There were other instances in which Beato had to accept Battler's theories even if they weren't right because denying them with red would give him more hints that she was willing to give.

I don't know. Somehow the idea that Piece Yasuda would have no means of seeing who solves the epitaph seems unlikely if you consider the vast amount of preperation put into the crimes. More so that like in EP7 Tea Party that Yasuda is prone to hide in the same area as the gold until she proceeds to commit more murders.

Although the two theories do make sense.

It's unknown if people can keep under control who enters in the room with the gold (in EP 7 Genji joined Yasuda pretty soon so it's possible that... let's say in Kinzo's room a bell ring if someone enters in the room of the gold). Through it's possible that, since she also had to play the role of dead person she couldn't go check the gold as soon as Eva discovered it or keep under control the entrance to the room with the gold while in EP 7 she had finished her duties and could sit there and wait.

No it does not, the game was made in such way that Eva is made to be the culprit going as far to call the witch of the game "Eva-Beatrice". However certain parts of the game were designed that Battler could not solve it by only using "Eva is the culprit" theory. It would make sense that it is part of the answer but not all of it.

Nope. The game is done in such a way so that Eva would look the culprit in place of the real culprit. The same was done in EP 5 where Natsuhi was purposely depicted as a suspicious person, in EP 6 where the murderer were George, Jessica, Shannon, Kanon, Battler and Beato, in EP 2 was possible to suspect Rosa, in EP 4 the game tried to make Kinzo look at the culprit while in EP 1 it was Natsuhi again that was suspicious.

Indeed, although I suspect that she might have unwittingly caused a greater incident. While EP7 tea party is dubious at best, I do suspect that Eva played a similar role within Prime. Maybe did not literally shoot someone but possibly did something to spark the incident.

As Eva is shown shooting at someone by mistake twice I've always thought this had happened. Though the point whould be if she had killed that person or merely injured it (in EP 3 Jessica is just wounded, in Ep 7 Natsuhi dies). I don't know though if this can have caused everyone to start shooting.

So far the most logic explanation is that a mystery game was started and some took the dead for real and went paranoid... which is also a theme through the episodes.

That is the thing though. If Battler and Eva both were told a way to avoid the explosives, what caused them to separate? The most likely answer is that Eva or Battler did not trust the other.

Not necessarily they learnt about the explosives and then tried to escape together.
It's possible that the epitaph was solved and they learnt about the explosive then something happened and someone turned on the bomb. They reached it in different times but couldn't turn it off so they both tried to escape.
Or it's possible that let's say Eva escaped for first, Battler was supposed to join her but took the wrong turn and since he never showed up she assumed he died.

A third theory would be they (or one of them) tried to reach Kuwadorian without knowing about the explosive.

There were more theories going around but those are the first 3 that came to my mind.

I think that makes more sense as well but we are talking about within the context of the story. Maria during one of her "witch" moments are not portrayed as a different character altogether. Even "Jessie" is not either. I am not sure how that comparison holds.

During her witch moments Maria's character switch from sweet, childish kid to a creepy and cold one that could care less about people dying around her.

Battler is rather surprised when he sees this happening the first time.

Though Jessica explains it not as Maria having two personality but Maria wanting to look in a certain way and compares this to her Jessica and her Jessie personas.
'Jessica' is the one that does (well, tried to do) what her parents want her to do while Jessie is the one that does what she wants. The difference between Shannon and Beato is merely more marked because Shannon is better at fulfilling other expectations (she'll probably be fired if she wasn't) but what she really wants to be differs a lot from what she has to be.

The only character who has something comparable is Eva whose inner self becomes separated once she becomes a "witch"(sound similar?).

That's because again there's a big difference between the two. One represents the ruthless side of Eva and the other the more caring, more motherly one.
In fact after Eva's personality split her character becomes gentler.

Also keep in mind Claire's "we are one but many", Yasuda's gender identity, and how the whole incident snowballed when "she become a witch". I do not think that Kannon, Shannon and Beatrice are masks but rather personas that tother compose Yasuda.

I call them masks as neither of them is the whole but each of them is a face she wear according to the situation.
Yasu wanted to prank Jessica when she denied the existence of Beatrice... but as her maid she couldn't allow herself the luxury. In a fashion the duality between Shannon and Beatrice is similar to the one of a masked superhero who's protecting his secret identity acting in a certain way.
Don't forget Yasu was forced to work for the Ushiromiya from when she was a child and to learn pretty fast how to act in a way that would please her masters... and that basically denied her wishes if she wanted to be accepted.

I agree. I suppose you could call that hoping for best case scenario despite nigh-impossible odds.

A slightly cynical person would consider that to be foolish dreaming that borders on living in a fantasy.

It's more like buying a lottery ticket. You might win though it's most likely you will lose. However there's nothing wrong in buying a lottery ticket as long as you don't quit on working and start acting as you would win for sure.

And Ange was lucky enough to buy the winning ticket as her brother was actually alive.

[AuraTwilight]

Multiple personality syndrome has vastly different portrayals within fictional works. Even in psychology is a debatable if it really exists. Ryukishi use of it is pretty common in fiction.

That troubled people have multiple personalities to deal with difficulties. This is made most clearly within Umineko within EP6. That "Mother" had all of her love transfered into "Beatrice" becasue she was unable to love Battler any longer.

That's not actually true. You're not taking into account that Ryukishi is depicting these entities as being entirely under Yasu's control to the extent that she can rewrite their personalities and memories, control who's in control, share all information between them with no memory loss, and keep all of them from interfering with big, elaborate, complex plans.

MPD doesn't work like that even in fiction. The fact that she can rewrite these entities as if she was playing pretend is a huge indication that this is exactly what she's doing.


Also keep in mind Claire's "we are one but many", Yasuda's gender identity, and how the whole incident snowballed when "she become a witch". I do not think that Kannon, Shannon and Beatrice are masks but rather personas that tother compose Yasuda.

"I am one but many" is a quote from Puss n'Boots, regarding a character that had to keep up multiple appearances in order to get what he wanted. Puss n'Boots didn't have multiple personalities.

Yasu doesn't have Multiple Personalities, even by fictional standards.

[Remon]

I agree with Aura on this one. All that thing about modifying her personalities, that's not how multiple personalities work. Then it would be fantasy. Also doesn't it violate the 4th?
It is forbidden for unknown mental disorders or mental alteration abilities to exist!

[Renall]

There is also no indication whatsoever that this "Yasu" person is not herself a character created by a higher-order fictional author. That is, "Yasu" may just be the author's fictionalized version of herself and a metaphor for the ways she deals with her many ideas and inventions. The author of the message bottles and Beatrice in Our Confession decidedly has a very methodical and careful approach. That suggests she plans and role-orients her creations very deliberately. That's entirely inconsistent with the notion of having any sort of mental disorder.

I think "real Beatrice" is entirely sane, and may even be overstating her emotions a bit just for dramatic effect. That's not to say she doesn't feel them, but they may not be as singularly driving as one might imagine.

[Toku]

I'd just like to bring up something I found that potentially does seem to work this way. (keep in mind that while this does seem to have been tested and studied by a number of people, for example Carl Jung, I don't think it's 100% proven or anything of the sort)

There's apparently a phenomenon whereby, if you spend enough time visualizing a character and interacting with them as if they were real, you will begin to be able to hear them talk to you in your mind without you putting words in their mouth. In other words, in your mind, they'll become real. Which, from a strictly scientific perspective, is an induced hallucination. But you could say it's like partitioning your mind. And, as far as I know, the original personality remains in control (all you'd have to do to get rid of the additional personalities is to stop paying them any attention). It takes a lot of time to "convince yourself" that they are real though, but that depends on how mentally stable you are in the first place. Yasu isn't insane, but I don't think she's completely mentally stable either, by any means. And from what I hear, it's even possible to go beyond this and induce hallucinations on all 5 of your senses, which really makes them completely real for you. But that takes much longer.

Anyway, it's called a Tulpa, and it's originally a Buddhist concept, but I don't know if the Buddhist concept is exactly the same as what I just said.

But, this is all a really "loveless" way of putting it. From Yasu's perspective, they are real. And it does kind of fit perfectly with most things in Umineko. For example:

From this day forward, you will no longer be me.
From this day forward, I will no longer be you.
The two of us will split apart a single soul and share it.
And though, of course, neither of us will possess a complete soul...
I'm sure our dreams will be more numerous than those of humans.

Let us be blessed......

My dear...Beatrice...

No one will be able to see your form.
However, I alone can see you.
And if you are loved by many people...
I'm sure that everyone will be able to see you someday.

With love, they will be able to see us......

Anyway, I know that there's no proof that this is what it is. It's just speculation, so take it with a grain of salt.

[UsagiTenpura]

There is also no indication whatsoever that this "Yasu" person is not herself a character created by a higher-order fictional author. That is, "Yasu" may just be the author's fictionalized version of herself and a metaphor for the ways she deals with her many ideas and inventions. The author of the message bottles and Beatrice in Our Confession decidedly has a very methodical and careful approach. That suggests she plans and role-orients her creations very deliberately. That's entirely inconsistent with the notion of having any sort of mental disorder.

I think "real Beatrice" is entirely sane, and may even be overstating her emotions a bit just for dramatic effect. That's not to say she doesn't feel them, but they may not be as singularly driving as one might imagine.

Finally reaching that point, where realizing that its very common for authors to make characters based on them, and completely crazy to make a mystery murder based on people you know with yourself as culprit ?
Damn that'd be great...

[AuraTwilight]

There's apparently a phenomenon whereby, if you spend enough time visualizing a character and interacting with them as if they were real, you will begin to be able to hear them talk to you in your mind without you putting words in their mouth. In other words, in your mind, they'll become real. Which, from a strictly scientific perspective, is an induced hallucination. But you could say it's like partitioning your mind. And, as far as I know, the original personality remains in control (all you'd have to do to get rid of the additional personalities is to stop paying them any attention). It takes a lot of time to "convince yourself" that they are real though, but that depends on how mentally stable you are in the first place. Yasu isn't insane, but I don't think she's completely mentally stable either, by any means. And from what I hear, it's even possible to go beyond this and induce hallucinations on all 5 of your senses, which really makes them completely real for you. But that takes much longer.

Anyway, it's called a Tulpa, and it's originally a Buddhist concept, but I don't know if the Buddhist concept is exactly the same as what I just said.

Actually, I'm glad you brought this up; I've done it myself in order to develop characters I write about, so I know it can be done. It's an absolute dead ringer for what Yasu is doing, even if Ryukishi never heard of it.

Though I will go off on a tangent and mention that you're misappropriating the word Tulpa. It translates to "Thoughtform", and is a supernatural concept where one creates something through pure will and discipline alone, often times to create an 'artificial spirit'. It was believed that Tulpas could effect the physical world, so Taoists and Onmyoji would sic them on people as attack dog-esque curses.

A really neato example in parapsychology involved a group who were going to hold a seance, but the ghost they tried to contact was something they made up. His name, his sketched appearance, his backround, everything.

...And they allegedly got answers, freaking everyone out.

[GreyZone]

Well, it would certainly explain, why Yasu says it is "magic".

[Wanderer]

I don't remember to what length I discussed this before, but what do people think of Will=Touya? I think it fits pretty well thematically with Will being intimately knowledgeable of the fictions and the Ushiromiyas without being too interested in them, and the sense that he was trapped with them and forced to solve the mystery (by Bernkastel no less, who I think could just as easily be called "the goddess of unlikely fortune" as "the witch of miracles"). Also, with Ikuko=Yasu, it could explain where Touya gets his theater-going authority.

[GuestSpeaker]

Hello everyone, long time reader and first time poster.

Firstly I just wanted to thank you all for such interesting posts previously. I have only really scratched the surface in terms of backreading (so sorry if I ask something already mentioned), but they have gone a long way to deepening my understanding. Or at least entertaining me.

Anyway, down to the question.
Ryûkishi07 in his often cited interview makes some pretty strong statements about Yasu being the culprit. A lot of people pointed out this doesn't match with the game text basically implying that Beatrice as a culprit had the same motivation as Eva as culprit, namely protecting Ange. Pre Umineko I would have noted this inconsistency, then glossed over this and waited to be spoonfed the answer. This almost always lead to me later kicking myself for missing an important plot-point because I couldn't be bothered thinking about it (which Umineko then called me on before shaming me like so much rabid goat butler). With this in mind, has anyone actually tried compiling a theory where the Ryu's logic all holds together? I.e.
- Yasu was willing to kill everybody
- Beatrice was a (self?) scapegoat to protect Ange
- Ange needed to be protected from some aspect of the truth of the incident
- Eva was not the sole/main culprit

Sorry for long post, but after reading so many hundreds of pages I have so much opinion stored up.

[GreyZone]

Welcome! It's good to have some "fresh air" in our community, as we lately only reapeated ourselves in cycles and no one posted the last 3 days at all...

I am not sure how i am supposed to understand your 4 points though. Can you please specify whether you mean the "gameboard" or "Rokkenjima prime"?

[GuestSpeaker]

It should be noted I am am willing to ignore for the moment that maybe Yasu's personality splitting doesn't exist in real life (that one is for Aura).

Other important notes are that Ep 5 gave us a pretty good example of Beatrice scapegoating for the whole cliff-pushing incident, and how that possibly might apply to Beatrice scapegoating for Yasu. Though this is a rather tenuous idea.


Also just because I have always wanted to say this:
Yes, Yasu's motivations do not seem realistic for the normal person, however given the extensive emotional trauma she (according to the possibly unreliable 7th game manga translation) has lived through, it may not be very love-filled of us to compare her mental state to yours or mine. Or at least yours.

[GuestSpeaker]

And I apologise, I mean R-Prime. The gameboards I accept as individual episodes wherein not all truths must apply at once.

My four points are loosely based off what Ryu has stated in his interview, and what I believe he tried to convey in his novels.
Though I guess taking into account Ep 5's Beatrice scapegoating was purely Natsuhi avoiding guilt, maybe Beatrice doesn't really have to be a scapegoat for anyone....

[GreyZone]

OK, I'll try adressing your points 1 by 1.


-Yasu is not willing to kill anybody at all in Prime. R07 never specified whether he ment culprit-Yasu for Prime or for the gameboards

-Beatrice is a scapegoat for putting Yasu as the culprit in all the forgeries, as that is essentially "herself". Her reason to do so could be the "paranoid-theory", that an innocent murder mystery game, with people just faking deaths, lead to uninvolved people misunderstanding this and thinking they all really died and started murdering for real. And of course that is a reason for Beatrice to feel guilty.

-There was never an indication that Ikuko/Tohya tried to protect Ange from anything. EP8 BATTLER/Beato are just in Ange's head... probably...
The only one really trying to protect Ange is Eva, because she possibly saw Kyrie shooting someone else. Maybe Kyrie only acted in self defense, but Eva misunderstood, or maybe Kyrie just went paranoid because of the muder mystery game.

-Yes, maybe Eva didn't kill anyone at all or maybe she did out of self-defense/paranoia. Paranoid-Theory still has not been disapproved.


Well this is only my own opinion. If there are some points you disagree with, you are free to state them of course.

[GuestSpeaker]

It may be possible that Yasu did not kill in prime, however the interview comment about her willingness was in response to the comments about the message bottles and the letters, which were stated as being sent beforehand.

Even acknowledging that it is often debated whether or not the bottles were sent beforehand, and assuming Ryu just decided to ignore this assumption (I somehow picture him making some cryptic comment about being so sure of timelines, or "maybe the actions seem so suspicious because they are" or something), it is pretty certain the letters were sent before the incident and catbox.

This means that Ryu's comments about Yasu being ready to do it but wanting to be stopped likely referred to any world where she sent the money out beforehand, in this case R-prime.

[GuestSpeaker]

Furthermore, looking at this segment:

K His image changes wether you base your idea of him on the Kinzô in EP7 or EP8.

R The Kinzô that Ange expected and the Kinzô that Battler wanted her to see are quite different as well.

Sort of heavily implies that Battler was pulling the strings of Ep8's kind Kinzo. I am not sure what spanner this throws into the already complex meta meta logic that is floating around.

[Renall]

This means that Ryu's comments about Yasu being ready to do it but wanting to be stopped likely referred to any world where she sent the money out beforehand, in this case R-prime.We don't actually know that money ever went out at all in R-Prime. That all happened to ep4 Ange, whose adventures may have been fictional. It's still possible that it happened, but it would be basically impossible to confirm.

He's lied or been cryptic in interviews before. For one thing, he somewhat dances around exactly what it is Yasu is resolved to do at times anyway. We may be drawing inferences to the idea that she's committed to mass murder in the Prime setting that don't actually exist. Not to mention that Battler seems to think she's innocent on some greater level in ep8.

If you earnestly suspect he's chosen to directly contradict the actual text, I'm not sure what to tell you. You either believe the text or you believe what the author said in those cases. I think it's more that he's either dodging around the issue, teasing, or outright trolling. Or is an idiot. I suppose that can't ever be eliminated.

[GuestSpeaker]

I would like to believe he is neither an idiot nor contradicting himself, but I do appreciate stranger things have happened. I guess I am basing it on the fact that he stated that with deep enough reasoning you can reach the truth beyond doubt of the catbox, and this was not a dodge. Furthermore, once we have the correct pieces, you can usually create a single answer to his games that covers all major questions, I'd be happy to see one theory with some evidence that does that, even if Yasu isn't the culprit.

In a further and unrelated question, was it in one of the games or on here that I read that as any theories denying the use of the window to escape the sealed room in the wedding episode (EP 6 I guess?) did not create a logic error, there must be another way to do it?

Also unrelated but on my mind, in regards to the Bern Murder mystery of Ep 8 (oh how I enjoyed that) was there anyone else who went with George culprit theory first? I did, even though it isn't as neat as the Battler theory, because otherwise you hit a logic error:

It is stated in purple by George that "no one could kill Doctor Nanjo inside the guesthouse!" but also in white true narration that "Nanjo was killed in the entrance hall to the guest house", though this may have been a translation error. My reasoning faltered though when I justified this by stating he killed a person by denying Kanon (or proposing to Shannon).

[GuestSpeaker]

Also, this may be a soft logic point, but regarding Ange's Ep 4 adventures, I suppose at some point we have to draw the line at what we can trust or we can't reason anything. Though I guess sadly the manga supports the fictional theory, as it has Ange taking her skyscraper dive and becoming two people: Ange who goes to the island, and Ange-Beatrice who travels to the Meta-world (though the translation of the explanation of this seems to be wrong when it first occurs). The reason this supports the fictional theory is Ange-Beatrice watches other Ange's adventures through the windows of the tea-room, just the same as she watches the games on the game-board.

[GuestSpeaker]

And just so I can triple post, some other points to consider:

1. Thinking of how much effort we put into solving the games, even if Ep 4 Ange's adventures are bogus, that does not mean we shouldn't put some effort into solving her scenario. If it IS a fiction then it is even more likely we can pinpoint a sensible culprit, WITH all the internal logic that would require.

2. Referring to the heart of Beato's games (at least 1 and 2 and possibly 3 and 4) as all the truths we learn about Yasu and her motivations, it sort of makes it less likely that her stories were written post event to cover culprit X. The only way this would work is if culprit X ties into her heart, otherwise we didn't even come close to any gut tearing.

3. Just because the truth in the book of single truths causes Angie to commit suicide (or likely, the translation of the interview gets a little hazy around this section), it doesn't mean it is necessarily a culprit statement. Couldn't Angie reading that "you/no-one will ever know the truth" or something like that also have a similar effect? The only problem here is it has to be a truth that Eva would keep from her, but that could be as simple as "Battler's actions (sin) lead to the death of everyone". It is even possible it contained confirmation that everyone bar Eva had died, taking away the hope that keeps Angie living.

That last one is a little dubious, but interesting to think about.

[Wanderer]

RK07's interview comments should always be kept in context. In that particular interview Keiya guided a lot of the discussion, so I think RK07 was in part answering to Keiya's particular line of reasoning. Unfortunately, I think people tend to give Keiya too much credit and don't pay enough attention to exactly how RK07 responds to Keiya.

For example:K Love is really a sufficient motive even for murder, isn’t it?!

R And I think people who do not know that, will sadly never understand Umineko. Because Umineko is „the story of a single girl who arrived at that point because she imagined an incident because of the love and madness in herself“

Keiya is the one really pushing the murder thing here, but RK07's response, although not a refutation of Keiya's assertion, is still a cryptic "imagined an incident".

And again:K No matter how you look at it, it seems like she was already accepting death. Both the letters before the incident and the message bottles seemed very much like a will.

R While there was enough desperation to actually carry out the incident, there was also the wish for somebody to stop her. Many criminals sending out announcements of their crimes might actually be screaming „Somebody, please stop me!“. Even though of course they can not be forgiven.

Keiya says Yasu was accepting death and was writing a will. RK07 neither confirms nor denies. Also, RK07 says "carry out the incident", instead of simply "commit murder". RK07 then talks about criminals sending out announcements, but it is not a very direct affirmation of Keiya's theory and, if it is an affirmation, it's not clear whether it affirms the call for help being "the letters before the incident", "the message bottles", or both.

So, to put it simply, I think it's best to be very careful about drawing conclusions from these interviews and to keep in mind the circumstances in which RK07 says what he says. I think he doesn't like to narrow the spectrum of interpretation of Umineko too much, so he often avoids refuting ideas even if they are somewhat off the mark.

Also, this may be a soft logic point, but regarding Ange's Ep 4 adventures, I suppose at some point we have to draw the line at what we can trust or we can't reason anything.

Ange has like... 3 or 4 different fates. They simply can't all be real unless Kakera Theory, but that's basically only a workable solution within the Fantasy context.

We've had considerable discussion on this forum as to what EP4 1998 Ange really is. Ultimately I think that EP4 Ange is fictional; she is Touya imagining (possibly with Ikuko's help) what things are like for the real Ange. The question is whether the elements such as Maria's diary, the multiple Sakutarous, and the mysteriously delivered bank cards were things Touya knew about and exposed in the story, or whether he just made them up.

This means that Ryu's comments about Yasu being ready to do it but wanting to be stopped likely referred to any world where she sent the money out beforehand, in this case R-prime.

I just mentioned how the above "wanting to be stopped" comment should be looked at in context. But to go further, I will contend that sending out money beforehand works with the murder game theory (as a reward for cooperation in an innocent murder game). I don't accept Yasu as being so twisted as to think that money would be any kind of compensation for murder. And even supposing she did think that way, why send a letter to Ange? Assuming Eva died too (as this cruel version of Yasu almost certainly would intend) Ange would inherit everything, so sending her a compensation bank card would have little meaning even in terms of money.

[GreyZone]

It all comes down to whether it's R-Prime or not.
But the money issue can be resolved by the "murder mystery game" too. Do you think everyone was just simply agreeing to do that "RPG" for Battler, for free?

[jjblue1]

I don't remember to what length I discussed this before, but what do people think of Will=Touya? I think it fits pretty well thematically with Will being intimately knowledgeable of the fictions and the Ushiromiyas without being too interested in them, and the sense that he was trapped with them and forced to solve the mystery (by Bernkastel no less, who I think could just as easily be called "the goddess of unlikely fortune" as "the witch of miracles"). Also, with Ikuko=Yasu, it could explain where Touya gets his theater-going authority.

It's something I consider as Battler and Will share some common elements and it would draw a nice parallelism both with Battler and Toya.
Of course it can be said that Will is merely an existence similar to Dlanor, a personification of the 20 wedges however Will seems to differ from Dlanor so I like to think at him as to an alterego of Battler/Toya.
It might be just me though.

- Yasu was willing to kill everybody

Yasu might have been willing... the general argument against this is: would she ever be capable? Not just capable to make it work (and this in itself is already a hard task) but also capable to... simply do it.

Because it's really easy to say 'I hate that person so I'll kill him' and, although less easy, a plan can be made to accomplish this but, once you found yourself about to end a life... well, unless you've a really low moral sense it's not so easy.

Also in the interview there's no clear distinction between PieceShannon/Yasu and Prime Shannon/Yasu.

We know Yasu was the culprit in the gameboard and Ryukishi confirmed this. What is not so clear is if she was also the culprit for Rokkenjima Prime.

- Beatrice was a (self?) scapegoat to protect Ange

Yasu had no reason to protect Ange. If Yasu survived (it's still up to debate if she became Ikuko) and wrote about the witch it was to 'find someone who would solve her mystery/understand her'.

- Ange needed to be protected from some aspect of the truth of the incident

Yes, and this imply Yasu wasn't the culprit otherwise Ange wouldn't have needed to be protected by the idea that a mad maid killed her family.

It may be possible that Yasu did not kill in prime, however the interview comment about her willingness was in response to the comments about the message bottles and the letters, which were stated as being sent beforehand.

Even acknowledging that it is often debated whether or not the bottles were sent beforehand, and assuming Ryu just decided to ignore this assumption (I somehow picture him making some cryptic comment about being so sure of timelines, or "maybe the actions seem so suspicious because they are" or something), it is pretty certain the letters were sent before the incident and catbox.

This means that Ryu's comments about Yasu being ready to do it but wanting to be stopped likely referred to any world where she sent the money out beforehand, in this case R-prime.

Again you clash into the problem: was he speaking about the gameboard or Prime?

But let's assume he was speaking about Prime.

As something 'mysterious' would have happened even if Battler weren't to come back it's also possible that Yasu planned to leave/disappear/commit suicide.

This would be more fitting with her personality while at the same time might involve a wish to be stopped.

Furthermore, looking at this segment:

K His image changes wether you base your idea of him on the Kinzô in EP7 or EP8.

R The Kinzô that Ange expected and the Kinzô that Battler wanted her to see are quite different as well.

Sort of heavily implies that Battler was pulling the strings of Ep8's kind Kinzo. I am not sure what spanner this throws into the already complex meta meta logic that is floating around.

The MetaBattler of EP 8 is likely not the real Battler but a Battler that existed in Ange's mind only and that represented her wish to remember her family as a loving family, opposed to the image she had of them painted by the media.

Ep 8 is mostly Ange's inner battle until she finds her own truth in which to believe.

Though I guess sadly the manga supports the fictional theory, as it has Ange taking her skyscraper dive and becoming two people: Ange who goes to the island, and Ange-Beatrice who travels to the Meta-world (though the translation of the explanation of this seems to be wrong when it first occurs). The reason this supports the fictional theory is Ange-Beatrice watches other Ange's adventures through the windows of the tea-room, just the same as she watches the games on the game-board.

The manga follows the game's storyline.

In Prime Ange likely disappeared short after Eva's death and EP 4 proposed 2 possible solutions for this: one is the fantasy one, where she was killed trying to help Battler (which can be a metaphor for how Ange suffered), the other... let's call it the mystery one as she's likely killed during the shooting.

General belief is that both those two solutions are what Toya thought had happened to Ange after he started to recover his memory, refused to meet her and heard she disappeared short after.

Theoretically it's also possible that Ange's adventures in Ep 4 were something that she made up in her mind (her past being the only true thing... even though the 'magic' parts were obviously fantasy).

3. Just because the truth in the book of single truths causes Angie to commit suicide (or likely, the translation of the interview gets a little hazy around this section), it doesn't mean it is necessarily a culprit statement. Couldn't Angie reading that "you/no-one will ever know the truth" or something like that also have a similar effect? The only problem here is it has to be a truth that Eva would keep from her, but that could be as simple as "Battler's actions (sin) lead to the death of everyone". It is even possible it contained confirmation that everyone bar Eva had died, taking away the hope that keeps Angie living.

That last one is a little dubious, but interesting to think about.

In Ep 8 there's a scene in which Ange commit suicide after reading the book because 'she wanted to overwrite the truth in it with her own truth'.

So evidently the truth was a little more unpleasant than just 'you don't get to know a thing about it' though the book might have not contained all the truth but just the unpleasant part of it.

RK07's interview comments should always be kept in context. In that particular interview Keiya guided a lot of the discussion, so I think RK07 was in part answering to Keiya's particular line of reasoning. Unfortunately, I think people tend to give Keiya too much credit and don't pay enough attention to exactly how RK07 responds to Keiya.

I fully agree on this!

[GuestSpeaker]

These are some very good points, though there are some holes that can be mentioned. First thing that came to my mind was that if everyone had died then there wouldn't have been that much for Ange to inherit to begin with, remember Eva had to go about rebuilding the fortune by selling off whatever was not blown to smithereens.

Secondly, I still feel that if Ep4 Ange is a fictional one then it should be possible to construct a working theory for how her world went, because while Ryu does play vague context games (that interview must be heavily edited unless he is just that well prepared/quick on his feet to come up with such carefully worded word games), he did state there was a truth you could arrive at with investigation. Even if this only applies to Ep4 Angie's scenario, I feel there is an answer that should be met with more certainty.

Furthermore, if you state that her "imagining an incident" refers to constructing the stories of the message bottles, then so too must "carrying out the incident". I'll agree that the context is vague, but hopefully it is consistent.

Finally, while the murder game scenario does have a lot of reasonable points (despite going against my confession's direct interpretation (which is fine)) and it IS possible one of the pre-warned adults hijacked it all, it does leave a few points that annoy me.
1. If the game was so innocent, why send the money to the relatives of the players? Especially when one of them was 6 years old. If she decided to do them all this way then how was she going to pay those who had no off-island family, and if she was just going to pay everyone then the adults wouldn't have been so money stricken anyway.
2. Why send them as if they were sent from the relatives when the letters would likely have arrived after they had returned home safely and all answers had been revealed/solved.
3. While money isn't enough to make up for the murder of a family (just ask Lamba about this one), could it not equally be interpreted that if she knew the whole island was going up she knew the wealth needed dispersal as payment before the game began?
4. Would Yasu pay them off twice? In her forgeries it was sort of implied that she did a big reveal of her plans while on the island, unless this is a load of croc she probably would have had to do the paying while there. Also what did she plan to do with all the gold? If she was going to divide it, why send out payment beforehand when NONE OF THE PEOPLE PRESENT could really confirm it had been sent except by her word?
5. Would everyone go in with that idea anyway? I believe one of the episodes addressed everyone agreeing to sell off the family name for money, and this is asking everyone to scare their family half to death. Unless it was meant to be played as a pure game, in which case it should have become evident after TW1 that it was NOT. (It interested me that they always referred to the red gory parts on people as makeup in the games, but come on, it is pretty hard to 'make up' holes in people's faces. I'd like to think even gameboard accomplices must have picked up on this and stayed silent for other reasons, which become more difficult if everyone is equally involved in the scheme).

I realise this is all possibly only relevant to Ep4 Ange, but I still want to know her story....

And some further questions:
1. Did anyone else ever wonder exactly when Kumisawa solved the epitaph? It seems likely she did from her possessions, and why would Ryu bother showing this to us?
2. Did anyone else notice that if you use the phrase "I wouldn't put it past Ryu" from the logic of Umineko you are basically stating that you are believing in a reason or circumstance that is simply untrue?

Phew that was a lot of typing, I should get a job writing meta-dialogue for the seven stakes.

[GuestSpeaker]

Just as nitpicking, I am pretty sure telling Ange she wouldn't know a thing about it was Eva's last shot to her, which if we take her metaphorical journey to search for the truth as being what keeps her from stepping off the ledge, is probably not as weak an insult as you think.


Also you make a good point about her resolve, though I did mention the whole willing and able to carry out context, here is some food for thought:

Do you think it would be equally within her character to set up a scenario where others might kill? It is a bit like having the bomb set and waiting for someone to turn it off (which flipping the switch is arguably a passive way to kill everybody, especially as she leaves it to fate whether or not it is switched back). We know she likes leaving things to fate, so I wonder if she could have merely placed all the pieces to the murders in everyone's hands, and then sat back and let fate decide what went on?

Also, this could be completely wrong, but I always assumed the incident that would have happened had he not come back would have been the death of either Shannon or (more likely, come on) Kannon. More importantly, not only would it be a little harsh of Ryu have likened her to a culprit forewarning of his crimes if she really wanted to be stopped from leaving or disappearing, but if we take that idea to be true, when she was understood by her messages, those things still would have happened. Though she would have accepted anyone, she WANTED Battler to solve it, which would have killed off Kannon at least anyway. So we know it had to be something that would have been stopped had it been solved, which could be her suicide, except that would not have been very mysterious.

[jjblue1]

These are some very good points, though there are some holes that can be mentioned. First thing that came to my mind was that if everyone had died then there wouldn't have been that much for Ange to inherit to begin with, remember Eva had to go about rebuilding the fortune by selling off whatever was not blown to smithereens.

First thing that came to my mind is that Ange never used the money she 'received' because she was too young to figure out what the letter meant.
Ergo someone older was supposed to receive the letter.
Also the letter was addressed to Rudolf and not to Ange.

Plus Yasuda couldn't know Ange would have fallen sick.
If Ange too had been there and died there would have been no point in sending her the letter as no one would be there to receive it.

Secondly, I still feel that if Ep4 Ange is a fictional one then it should be possible to construct a working theory for how her world went, because while Ryu does play vague context games (that interview must be heavily edited unless he is just that well prepared/quick on his feet to come up with such carefully worded word games), he did state there was a truth you could arrive at with investigation. Even if this only applies to Ep4 Angie's scenario, I feel there is an answer that should be met with more certainty.

I'm not sure which theory you want to build here.
If you're talking about which end she met it's pretty clear that on Rokkenjima she ended up being shoot, possibly/likely by Amakusa as heavily implied by EP 7/8.

Furthermore, if you state that her "imagining an incident" refers to constructing the stories of the message bottles, then so too must "carrying out the incident". I'll agree that the context is vague, but hopefully it is consistent.

the carry out part refers to the bit in which Shannon is accepting death so it might refer merely to a suicidal will not to an omicidal one... at least from Ryukishi's part. Keiya might have thought at both.

Finally, while the murder game scenario does have a lot of reasonable points (despite going against my confession's direct interpretation (which is fine)) and it IS possible one of the pre-warned adults hijacked it all, it does leave a few points that annoy me.

It doesn't really clash with Our confession as our Confession is merely another game.

1. If the game was so innocent, why send the money to the relatives of the players? Especially when one of them was 6 years old. If she decided to do them all this way then how was she going to pay those who had no off-island family, and if she was just going to pay everyone then the adults wouldn't have been so money stricken anyway.

The money wasn't sent to the relatives of the victims but to the victims. Ange's envelope was in fact addressed to Rudolf. As the victims were... well dead the relatives opened the envelopes.

2. Why send them as if they were sent from the relatives when the letters would likely have arrived after they had returned home safely and all answers had been revealed/solved.

You got it wrong, they weren't set to look as if they were sent by the relatives, it was Ange (and I think Kumasawa's soon too) that mistakenly though so as she received that letter.

3. While money isn't enough to make up for the murder of a family (just ask Lamba about this one), could it not equally be interpreted that if she knew the whole island was going up she knew the wealth needed dispersal as payment before the game began?

If actually she didn't plan to kill everyone but merely to die/fake her suicide she needed to hand out the money before 'vanishing' otherwise it would have been easy to guess she was still alive.

4. Would Yasu pay them off twice? In her forgeries it was sort of implied that she did a big reveal of her plans while on the island, unless this is a load of croc she probably would have had to do the paying while there. Also what did she plan to do with all the gold? If she was going to divide it, why send out payment beforehand when NONE OF THE PEOPLE PRESENT could really confirm it had been sent except by her word?

It's unlikely she paid them twice. In Our Confession the payment that they would receive is just the one in the envelope... and the gold will blow up.

5. Would everyone go in with that idea anyway? I believe one of the episodes addressed everyone agreeing to sell off the family name for money, and this is asking everyone to scare their family half to death. Unless it was meant to be played as a pure game, in which case it should have become evident after TW1 that it was NOT. (It interested me that they always referred to the red gory parts on people as makeup in the games, but come on, it is pretty hard to 'make up' holes in people's faces. I'd like to think even gameboard accomplices must have picked up on this and stayed silent for other reasons, which become more difficult if everyone is equally involved in the scheme).


If it's a game/believed to be a game people might accept to play... if it's the real thing I doubt it unless seriously threatened. And even if that was the case many Ushiromiya might think to attack her as they're strong enough to deal with a girl.

And some further questions:
1. Did anyone else ever wonder exactly when Kumisawa solved the epitaph? It seems likely she did from her possessions, and why would Ryu bother showing this to us?

Either she merely found hints to solve it or once Yasu solved it she was told the solution.

2. Did anyone else notice that if you use the phrase "I wouldn't put it past Ryu" from the logic of Umineko you are basically stating that you are believing in a reason or circumstance that is simply untrue?

More than untrue it's hard to prove or it's believed to be unrealistic or with low chances to be true. ShKannon though was pretty unrealistic but it was one of the intended solutions.

Just as nitpicking, I am pretty sure telling Ange she wouldn't know a thing about it was Eva's last shot to her, which if we take her metaphorical journey to search for the truth as being what keeps her from stepping off the ledge, is probably not as weak an insult as you think.

I don't think it's a weak insult but as you said it's what kept her from jumping. If she were to do it in the diary too Ange would still not be jumping.

Also you make a good point about her resolve, though I did mention the whole willing and able to carry out context, here is some food for thought:

Do you think it would be equally within her character to set up a scenario where others might kill? It is a bit like having the bomb set and waiting for someone to turn it off (which flipping the switch is arguably a passive way to kill everybody, especially as she leaves it to fate whether or not it is switched back). We know she likes leaving things to fate, so I wonder if she could have merely placed all the pieces to the murders in everyone's hands, and then sat back and let fate decide what went on?

The idea behind the mystery game is that she set up a game where no one was supposed to kill for real but it somehow backfired, people went paranoid and killed others.

Saying she purposely set up a scenario where other would kill to me is like saying she killed by proxy. It's easier than doing it personally but much more risky and harder to control.
We don't even know if she was the one who flipped the switch or someone else did so and, as long as you plan to switch off the switch there's no murdering intention (though it'll be hard to prove it in front of a jury).

In short the problem many have is that yes, Yasu might have planned a mass murder and then done it but it just wouldn't fit with her character or with what Umineko implied.

Also, this could be completely wrong, but I always assumed the incident that would have happened had he not come back would have been the death of either Shannon or (more likely, come on) Kannon.

Shannon can't marry George unless she works up the gut to tell him she can't have babies (and probably also that her breasts are fake). This never happen in Umineko so, since she can't leave with George she 'has to die'. Kanon says he would leave when Shannon were to leave so Kanon would likely 'die' as well.

In short they would both disappear and since they're the only real faces Yasu have, Yasu would disappear.
It is however debatable if Yasu would disappear throuh suicide or throuh faking it.
If she managed to build up the Ikuko's identity she might have considered leaving.

If she planned to die she might have considered dragging George and Jessica with herself as well in a love suicide.

We'll never know unless more material is released...

More importantly, not only would it be a little harsh of Ryu have likened her to a culprit forewarning of his crimes if she really wanted to be stopped from leaving or disappearing, but if we take that idea to be true, when she was understood by her messages, those things still would have happened. Though she would have accepted anyone, she WANTED Battler to solve it, which would have killed off Kannon at least anyway. So we know it had to be something that would have been stopped had it been solved, which could be her suicide, except that would not have been very mysterious.

In the games her suicide was set up like a mysterious murder so her suicide/disappearence can be mysterious.

If Battler weren't to return she would likely have no one to whom ask to stop her as her messages in the games were target made for Battler.

Of course here we're assuming that Prime Yasu had in mind to kill everyone and herself... and we don't know if that's true...

[GuestSpeaker]

Crud, this thing just reset after I addressed every point, this is going to take ages to retype.....

[GuestSpeaker]

I'm not sure which theory you want to build here.

Basically as to who the culprit really was in that whole layer of her world.

the carry out part refers to the bit in which Shannon is accepting death so it might refer merely to a suicidal will not to an omicidal one... at least from Ryukishi's part. Keiya might have thought at both.

However by what has been used as an argument before, if she "imagined" it then she never intended to do it anyway and did not need stopping.

The money wasn't sent to the relatives of the victims but to the victims. Ange's envelope was in fact addressed to Rudolf. As the victims were... well dead the relatives opened the envelopes.

Sorry about that, I clearly need to reread that section.

You got it wrong, they weren't set to look as if they were sent by the relatives, it was Ange (and I think Kumasawa's soon too) that mistakenly though so as she received that letter.

What I meant to say in point 2 is that sending out the money that way makes no sense. If she wasn't going to kill them, why not give it to them directly? Why send it in a way where she couldn't then easily prove to the siblings that they had already been paid. And if she didn't know Ange wasn't coming but wanted her to play a part, why didn't she get paid anyway?

If actually she didn't plan to kill everyone but merely to die/fake her suicide she needed to hand out the money before 'vanishing' otherwise it would have been easy to guess she was still alive.

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand why she would need to hand it out or people would have known she was disappearing? Also, she really didn't. She handed out a small portion of it and left most of it sitting on the floor of the Witch's room. She could easily have left it all there, but she felt the need to pay out some of it.

It's unlikely she paid them twice. In Our Confession the payment that they would receive is just the one in the envelope... and the gold will blow up.


It was my understanding that in my confession she just used the murder mystery to help her set up the first twilight. It is the hardest because it involves 6 corpses, everyone is still walking around freely, not in any state of suspicion or paranoia and has nothing to lose because they are not already complicit in a crime. How could she convince them to join in with money in envelopes she had already sent but could not prove she had? Even if you say she just paid off accomplices beforehand, Rudolf could not have known his money was enroute before killing everyone (by popular theory)

If it's a game/believed to be a game people might accept to play... if it's the real thing I doubt it unless seriously threatened. And even if that was the case many Ushiromiya might think to attack her as they're strong enough to deal with a girl.

I just meant the whole game premise probably would have collapsed after the first twilight, which should have derailed the scheme of culprit x if everyone knew it was meant to be game.

Either she merely found hints to solve it or once Yasu solved it she was told the solution.

It seems likely she solved it herself, I merely wondered if you guys think Ryu meant this to be any more than a hint to look at the chapel.

More than untrue it's hard to prove or it's believed to be unrealistic or with low chances to be true. ShKannon though was pretty unrealistic but it was one of the intended solutions.

I agree that trick would be tough (well, if not for Jessica that is, who else would probably pay that much attention to servants on a rotating shift anyway? Do you know enough about the cleaners at your workplace to suspect this level of crazy act from them?), but we were given plenty of fair hint.

I don't think it's a weak insult but as you said it's what kept her from jumping. If she were to do it in the diary too Ange would still not be jumping.

1. I am not so sure it didn't in the first place. Maybe having an evil aunt was still better than nothing, cause Ange went on her roof journey pretty immediately after that scene...

2. Assuming the hope of learning something was what was keeping her alive, finding there was no hope of learning anything might just cause her to go over the edge. It seemed like she planned to kill herself at the end of her journey unless she found some reason not to along the way anyway. I could easily speculate her reaction at reading the book was her despair over having to finally give up any hope of learning more about the day, and having that last "what if" crushed. We know despite her cool demeanor, her piece at least still held onto a lot of these little hopes.

The idea behind the mystery game is that she set up a game where no one was supposed to kill for real but it somehow backfired, people went paranoid and killed others.

Would an accident like that make her kill herself either? I feel it has to somehow destroy some idea she has been holding onto to keep her alive.

Furthermore, isn't a risky and hard to control situation exactly what Shannon's character would like? The romance of leaving the outcome to fate, with all the risk being able to be taken by passively waiting around to see the outcome?

Shannon can't marry George unless she works up the gut to tell him she can't have babies

Once again, Ryu stated she was just happy to wait around and have this come out on its own. She even expected it to on their little date. It seems to me Shannon is willing to make just enough effort to create situations where things may occur, then not actively making it happen.

Of course, I can't deny she was just about to throw it all in and kill off all of her personalities, sort of Ep 4 style.

In the games her suicide was set up like a mysterious murder so her suicide/disappearence can be mysterious.

The mystery was because there was no-one who could move her corpse, no-way for her to get off the island or more people to be there/leave then they knew about. Also it created a mystery as to who killed the other people in the scenarios. For her to still create a mystery, she would have had to at least brought suspicion that someone in the family had done away with her. And without a typhoon, she could have just left without anyone noticing, so no mystery.

I know I originally had more points, especially regarding the bit about dividing the fortune, but this is all I can remember for now.....

[Wanderer]

Furthermore, if you state that her "imagining an incident" refers to constructing the stories of the message bottles, then so too must "carrying out the incident". I'll agree that the context is vague, but hopefully it is consistent.

"Incident" can just mean the murder game.

One thing I'm sure everyone can agree on is that whatever Yasu did, it was some kind of cry for attention.

Finally, while the murder game scenario does have a lot of reasonable points (despite going against my confession's direct interpretation (which is fine)) and it IS possible one of the pre-warned adults hijacked it all, it does leave a few points that annoy me.
1. If the game was so innocent, why send the money to the relatives of the players? Especially when one of them was 6 years old. If she decided to do them all this way then how was she going to pay those who had no off-island family, and if she was just going to pay everyone then the adults wouldn't have been so money stricken anyway.
2. Why send them as if they were sent from the relatives when the letters would likely have arrived after they had returned home safely and all answers had been revealed/solved.
3. While money isn't enough to make up for the murder of a family (just ask Lamba about this one), could it not equally be interpreted that if she knew the whole island was going up she knew the wealth needed dispersal as payment before the game began?
4. Would Yasu pay them off twice? In her forgeries it was sort of implied that she did a big reveal of her plans while on the island, unless this is a load of croc she probably would have had to do the paying while there. Also what did she plan to do with all the gold? If she was going to divide it, why send out payment beforehand when NONE OF THE PEOPLE PRESENT could really confirm it had been sent except by her word?
5. Would everyone go in with that idea anyway? I believe one of the episodes addressed everyone agreeing to sell off the family name for money, and this is asking everyone to scare their family half to death. Unless it was meant to be played as a pure game, in which case it should have become evident after TW1 that it was NOT. (It interested me that they always referred to the red gory parts on people as makeup in the games, but come on, it is pretty hard to 'make up' holes in people's faces. I'd like to think even gameboard accomplices must have picked up on this and stayed silent for other reasons, which become more difficult if everyone is equally involved in the scheme).

Our Confessions did have a murder game scenario, except that Beatrice actually killed for real instead. Which brings up an important point: I don't think Beatrice always equals Yasu.
1. To elaborate on what has already been brought up, the letter that Ange got with the bank card had a bogus send-to address and the return address of her father. So there's no reason to assume she was the intended recipient unless you believe that the sender knew Rudolf would be dead by the time it got to his house. Also since it's the return address method, the mailing trick could have worked on the Rokkenjima mansion's address just the same as any other address (assuming the mansion's destruction wasn't intended :heh:).
2. I don't know. It could have been an additional award Yasu was giving without any announcement; like, she had already planned to give all the money away but didn't want to give it away before the game or else she wouldn't have all the leverage she might need to gain everyone's participation. She may have used blackmail or threats to get peoples' cooperation, too.
3. Sure. But if she knew the island was going to blow up, she's pretty evil. And if she's that evil, why the good deed of dispersing the money?
4. See answer to 2.
5. I agree that people going along with the murder game is kind of hard to swallow, but I'd like to point out that going along with real murders is even harder to swallow. Let's also keep in mind there could be ulterior motives to participation, like what we see in End where pretty much everyone participates in a fake murder scenario to corner Natsuhi. The first Twilights of Legend and Turn do seem like they couldn't have been faked, but honestly I just have to resort to hand-waving those parts because everything fits so well if they are somehow fake anyway, despite their description.

Did anyone else ever wonder exactly when Kumisawa solved the epitaph? It seems likely she did from her possessions, and why would Ryu bother showing this to us?

I don't remember this about her possessions, but in any case I wouldn't find it strange if she was in on it from the beginning, like Genji.

[Kealym]

Fatigued from reading pages and pages of posts. :eyespin:

We don't actually know that money ever went out at all in R-Prime. That all happened to ep4 Ange, whose adventures may have been fictional. It's still possible that it happened, but it would be basically impossible to confirm.
True. I agree with most that EP4 Ange was probably fictional, based to some extent on Tohya feeling like a douche for refusing to see her. However, my reasoning about her misadventures is the same as my argument for trusting in how accurately the humans are presented - basically, that I'm trusting that, in these regards, Ryukishi was trying to give us relatively accurate information. Even the opening statement on Alliance basically says "Okay, and now we'll have some clues from OUTSIDE Rokkenjima, because you might not figure this stuff if we stay on the island". Though I DO wish he'd given a more exciting way for Ange to have Maria's diary besides "I nabbed it when the police weren't looking." :heh:


In a further and unrelated question, was it in one of the games or on here that I read that as any theories denying the use of the window to escape the sealed room in the wedding episode (EP 6 I guess?) did not create a logic error, there must be another way to do it?
I'm not sure what you're asking?

Also unrelated but on my mind, in regards to the Bern Murder mystery of Ep 8 (oh how I enjoyed that) was there anyone else who went with George culprit theory first? I did, even though it isn't as neat as the Battler theory, because otherwise you hit a logic error:

It is stated in purple by George that "no one could kill Doctor Nanjo inside the guesthouse!" but also in white true narration that "Nanjo was killed in the entrance hall to the guest house", though this may have been a translation error. My reasoning faltered though when I justified this by stating he killed a person by denying Kanon (or proposing to Shannon).
Well, when you first get to the end of the narration, you are pretty much stuck between Battler and George. Maria is reasoned out after the Second Twilight. No logic error exists here, though. You just have to put George purple that Nanjo couldn't have been killed INSIDE the guesthouse against Battlers purple statement that Nanjo NEVER LEFT the guesthouse. They can't both be true, so you have to figure Battler was lying - Nanjo left the guesthouse, was killed, and for the reason of Bern's game being more a deductive-logic-game than an actual narrative, they plopped his corpse right on back in the entrance hall. I mean, after actually killing Nanjo, there was no reason (from a narrative standpoint) for the culprits to bother with the nonsense about locking doors and having Battler lie.


Also, this could be completely wrong, but I always assumed the incident that would have happened had he not come back would have been the death of either Shannon or (more likely, come on) Kannon.
I think in EP7, it was almost exactly said just as you say here, I'm pretty sure it was something like "There definitely would have been a 'strange incident' on Rokkenjima in October 1986, but without Battler it would have been rather small." The impression I get is that it would've been a "strange thing that happened, once", that the family would occasionally bring up at dinner for years to come. Ha, maybe it was George announcing his engagement on the same day that Kanon flipped his little stripey-socked lid and loudly quit in front of everybody after cursing Natsuhi out or something. :heh:

[Drifloon]

The first twilight of Legend doesn't seem that hard to fake. The only real wounds were on the faces, right? It could have been done with 'bloody make-up', heck, they even use the word 'make-up' repeatedly during that section to hint it. I'm sure if someone had tried actually touching the faces it would have become clear that they weren't really damaged.

For Turn, the candies could have been covering the supposed openings in their stomachs, right? Wasn't the only one who actually saw their stomachs sliced open Rosa, who's an accomplice? It would be difficult, but I don't think it's impossible.

Did anyone else ever wonder exactly when Kumisawa solved the epitaph? It seems likely she did from her possessions, and why would Ryu bother showing this to us?

I've never heard of this. Could you elaborate?

[GuestSpeaker]

Amongst the possessions Angie was shown from Kumisawa's son was a picture of the chapel with the writing translated, to which he mentioned she liked solving puzzles and tried the epitaph. If she got that far, she probably knew the answer (I maybe should have spoiler tagged something here....)

And what I was referring to with the windows, was if it was said in game there was a way to escape the room not using the windows I would be very interested to hear theories on it, if it were said on these boards there is less onus for it to be true.

[GuestSpeaker]

And the thing I was trying to say about Bern's puzzle is the white narration (which HAS to be true) said that "Nanjo was killed in the entrance hall to the guest house", which if we follow to the letter means that George's "no one could kill Doctor Nanjo inside the guesthouse!" false by default. Unless this is a translation error in the patch it is a logic error in the game for George NOT to be lying, hence why I chose him over Battler.

[GuestSpeaker]

Also, I would say that the puzzle of why she sent out the money is an important one, because it is one the characters in metaworld dangled in front of us (for me sort of implying it was something Battler was on a personal level trying to figure out, supporting its real occurrence). If it was to pay people for a murder game, she wouldn't be able to prove she had done it, sort of invalidating its purpose. However if she were just mad enough to leave the possibility of the island blowing up to chance, but not quite mean spirited enough not to send out some money, this could fit with her wanting to be stopped (therefore feeling guilt). This would also fit with what Ryu may have been saying regarding her determination.

However despite what I argue in my devil's advocate way, I too feel that there must be some way she isn't wholly responsible for what went on, as I felt Battler at least believed she was acting as a scapegoat (or Ange depending on whose Meta world it was). Either that or Japanese cultural guilt practices make it ok for him to feel like since he drove her to do it, it was his fault in the first place. If he looks at it from the point of the torture he put her through, it is a possible emotion I guess (from what I have glimpsed in a few movies, Japanese culture treats guilt and its ramifications slightly differently, though this is very vaguely skimmed hearsay)

Meanwhile, it seems my (not actually typed in the colour of but in the spirit of) blue truths regarding Ange were effective.

[UsagiTenpura]

Was thinking about theories like George culprit (within the arcs) of Chrono.
That is alternate culprit theories beside Yasu culprit theories. I just don't see how they work. So I'd like to see if anyone has actually a way to deal with this major problem:

What's the point for Yasu/Beatrice to write a story if the culprit in that story is someone else? Especially like, in George's case, she'd picture her bf as the culprit.

It's nice and all to find alternative solutions, none likes those more then I do, but some answers ends up causing too much nonsense when it comes to fit in other solutions. That said, there might be something I don't see, this is why I'm posting this.

[jjblue1]

Basically as to who the culprit really was in that whole layer of her world.

If you talk about Ange's death in EP 4 she was likely killed by Amakusa who was requested to kill the Sumadera and Ange by Okonogi.
If you talk about the murders on Rokkenjima in Ep 4 the culprit is always Yasu.
It's the culprit in Prime that sadly is always up to debate.

However by what has been used as an argument before, if she "imagined" it then she never intended to do it anyway and did not need stopping.

Not necessary as this part refers to something different than the previous.

Now, about imagining things...
Imagining things it's easy and with no consequences and, if you're a planner, you generally will imagine in your mind everything regardless of you doing it or not and Yasu IS a planner so if she imagined something it's also possible it was something she mean to carry on.

Now let's compare the two fantasies:

- killing so many people can be easily imagined but it'll be really hard to carry on both pratically and emotionally. Even if she might have said 'I'm angry with them, I'll kill them all' it becomes hard to believe she had the determination, lack of moral/empathy, the skill and the luck to carry it out. A side of her is fond of those people, they're many, they'll fight back and so on.

- killing/faking to kill herself (therefore causing both Shannon and Kanon to disappear) is technically much easier. As no one suspect it there's no one trying to stop her apart her sense of self preservation that would probably prompt her to search someone who would stop her. The island is big, she has access to weapons, all she has to do is to pull an EP 2 trick if she want to murder herself for real or simulate her murder and escape with the boat if she wants to just escape.

But there's more. Even if we assume Yasu wanted to be stopped in Prime and that's why she orchestrated the games maybe all she wanted Battler to stop was her marriage with George. She might have thought in the end she would have worked enough courage to tell him the truth (or that she would have postponed the issue) but regardless of her telling him the truth or not, as soon as she leaves Rokkenjima Kanon disappear.

The problem with Prime is we don't really have a Prime Yasu among the characters presented. Even EP 7 is the confession of Piece Yasu.

What I meant to say in point 2 is that sending out the money that way makes no sense. If she wasn't going to kill them, why not give it to them directly? Why send it in a way where she couldn't then easily prove to the siblings that they had already been paid. And if she didn't know Ange wasn't coming but wanted her to play a part, why didn't she get paid anyway?

The money wasn't sent to Kirye either. She likely sent an envelope for each family not for each person. And she handed it afterward because if she had handed it earlier they might not cooperate.

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand why she would need to hand it out or people would have known she was disappearing? Also, she really didn't. She handed out a small portion of it and left most of it sitting on the floor of the Witch's room. She could easily have left it all there, but she felt the need to pay out some of it.

The money was handed to pay out the adult for their performance in the game. The gold was going to be handed only if they were to solve the epitaph and the gold in itself is pretty useless as it needs to be converted into money and it's not so easy as Kinzo owned the gold in a not legal manner.

Of all the siblings only Krauss said he knew how to convert it in money (and he might have lied) and likely he couldn't convert it all in just a blink.

It's possible Genji too knew how to convert it in money, though it's also possible that the money he handed to Yasu was merely Kinzo's property and didn't come out of the gold.

It was my understanding that in my confession she just used the murder mystery to help her set up the first twilight. It is the hardest because it involves 6 corpses, everyone is still walking around freely, not in any state of suspicion or paranoia and has nothing to lose because they are not already complicit in a crime. How could she convince them to join in with money in envelopes she had already sent but could not prove she had? Even if you say she just paid off accomplices beforehand, Rudolf could not have known his money was enroute before killing everyone (by popular theory)

Part of Umineko is based on "10 little indians". In it mister U.N.Owen invites '10' people on his island and they go there even if they don't know him.
The adults were disperate. If she sent them messages (instead of meeting them directly) in which she introduced herself as... let's say Beatrice and promised money if they were to do something apparently harmless it's possible the siblings would fall for it or think it was worth a try.
In Ep 3 we have all the adults think that 'Beatrice' knows where the gold is and wants them to do something in exchange for the gold.
Now, Yasu might have not hold her part of the bargain and not sent out the money... but she decided to do so anyway.

I just meant the whole game premise probably would have collapsed after the first twilight, which should have derailed the scheme of culprit x if everyone knew it was meant to be game.

Yes, that's why the motive for the people cooperating with Yasu also seems weak on the gameboard.
However if in Prime people didn't die for real the accomplices would still play along.
Think at EP 5 or 6 in which people faked their deaths and continued to fake it for a while. Likely in EP 5 Jessica didn't realize she was giving her mother the scare of her life but thought she was merely playing a prank.
The same hapens in EP 4 where likely she made the phone call under the impression that everything had been a prank and she fell for it... only in EP 4 she got killed for real afterward.

It seems likely she solved it herself, I merely wondered if you guys think Ryu meant this to be any more than a hint to look at the chapel.

Not really otherwise by Kinzo's rules she would be the owner to the gold... unless she solved it in Prime and then tried to kill everyone to keep the gold to herself?... hum somehow the Kumasawa culprit theory doesn't seem so believable.
Also Kumasawa knew many of Kinzo's secrets, including the existence of Beato 2, Yasu and Kuwadorian. Like Genji she might have known how to reach the gold.

I agree that trick would be tough (well, if not for Jessica that is, who else would probably pay that much attention to servants on a rotating shift anyway? Do you know enough about the cleaners at your workplace to suspect this level of crazy act from them?), but we were given plenty of fair hint.

Natsuhi who's paying them and that suddently found herself hiring someone she didn't hire? Genji who knows all the servants? Not mentioning the servants had working rotating shifts already estabilished and Shannon and Kanon couldn't work at the same time. Or eat together in the kitchen. Plus Kanon becomes, short after being hired apparently, one of Kinzo's trusted servants. And let's mention the servants who came working from the Fukuin house during that time wouldn't have know him even though he too was supposed to come from that same place and travel along with them from the Fukuin institute to Rokkenjima.

No, for Shannon and Kanon to exist Yasu needs accomplices among which surely was Genji, likely Kumasawa and Nanjo and possibly even Natsuhi and Krauss that wanted to make sure that, when the siblings were coming to visit, only trusted servants would be around.

1. I am not so sure it didn't in the first place. Maybe having an evil aunt was still better than nothing, cause Ange went on her roof journey pretty immediately after that scene...

A theory is that actually Ange found the diary and read it and that's why she went on the roof, leaving the diary behind.

2. Assuming the hope of learning something was what was keeping her alive, finding there was no hope of learning anything might just cause her to go over the edge. It seemed like she planned to kill herself at the end of her journey unless she found some reason not to along the way anyway. I could easily speculate her reaction at reading the book was her despair over having to finally give up any hope of learning more about the day, and having that last "what if" crushed. We know despite her cool demeanor, her piece at least still held onto a lot of these little hopes.

Ange actually had two hopes:
one was that someone was still alive the other was that Eva, or someone else that weren't her parents, was the culprit.
She doesn't really want the TRUTH but a version of the truth she might like.

Would an accident like that make her kill herself either? I feel it has to somehow destroy some idea she has been holding onto to keep her alive.

No, it's not the mystery game gone wrong that caused her to wish to die/disappear.
She wished/considered to die/disappear then heard of Battler's return and set up the mystery game. The mystery game went wrong and Rokkenjima blew up.

Once again, Ryu stated she was just happy to wait around and have this come out on its own. She even expected it to on their little date. It seems to me Shannon is willing to make just enough effort to create situations where things may occur, then not actively making it happen.

Which sort of clash with the ative role she takes in the mystery game whenre she actually plans murders and goes around turning that plan in reality at least in the games. She's very active and not at all passive in the games.

The mystery was because there was no-one who could move her corpse, no-way for her to get off the island or more people to be there/leave then they knew about. Also it created a mystery as to who killed the other people in the scenarios. For her to still create a mystery, she would have had to at least brought suspicion that someone in the family had done away with her. And without a typhoon, she could have just left without anyone noticing, so no mystery.

I know I originally had more points, especially regarding the bit about dividing the fortune, but this is all I can remember for now.....

She can leave using the boat in the cave, a boat of which no one knows about so her disappearance would be mysterious. If she set it up properly she could cause people to think it's even more suspicious.
For example if she were to leave around a blood stained knife or a ripped piece of her clothes or if someone where to see in the distance something that could look like someone attacking her and, once he were to reach the scene would find nothing. Actually she could even use Battler's trick in Ep 5 and let others think she fell from a window when she actually reached safely the ground and then escaped.

For a fake murder there are really tons of tricks she could use...

Amongst the possessions Angie was shown from Kumisawa's son was a picture of the chapel with the writing translated, to which he mentioned she liked solving puzzles and tried the epitaph. If she got that far, she probably knew the answer (I maybe should have spoiler tagged something here....)

And what I was referring to with the windows, was if it was said in game there was a way to escape the room not using the windows I would be very interested to hear theories on it, if it were said on these boards there is less onus for it to be true.

Actually assuming Kumasaw didn't know the gold's location, it's possible Kumasawa merely noticed something odd about the chapel as only Genji was allowed to clean the writing. However she might not have found the solution of the epitaph, just a clue toward the solution.

Was thinking about theories like George culprit (within the arcs) of Chrono.
That is alternate culprit theories beside Yasu culprit theories. I just don't see how they work. So I'd like to see if anyone has actually a way to deal with this major problem:

What's the point for Yasu/Beatrice to write a story if the culprit in that story is someone else? Especially like, in George's case, she'd picture her bf as the culprit.

It's nice and all to find alternative solutions, none likes those more then I do, but some answers ends up causing too much nonsense when it comes to fit in other solutions. That said, there might be something I don't see, this is why I'm posting this.

I think it was suggested by someone that the games could contain both the intended answer (the culprit is Yasu) and the... let's call it Prime answer (the culprit is George).

Though if the culprit were to be George I think Ange would have accepted that truth because it would remove suspicions from her parents (even though it was probably not as satisfing as the Eva culprit theory for her).
In fact when Erika suggests it she has no complains against it.

[GuestSpeaker]

Not necessary as this part refers to something different than the previous.

I refer specifically to people who state Ryu was saying she imagined (planned) the whole incident, then claiming she was otherwise ready to carry out a separate incident (e.g. her suicide). I am simply saying they can't have it both ways, unless they are saying the two times Ryu uses "incident" he means different things.

killing so many people can be easily imagined but it'll be really hard to carry on both piratically and emotionally

This is only true if you ignore the theory that she may have created a part of herself that was capable of doing this, playing the role of the killer as it were. It would tie in well with Maria's witch personality going sour (therefore sending the Beato personality of Yasu off the edge of evil). We may have to think of Yasu as someone who doesn't believe they can fight off their Beato persona, setting to the default unless someone stops it otherwise. Leaving it to someone else to save them. I can pretty easily imagine Yasu resigning herself to this terrible fate unless someone comes to save her (as I agree, she was crying out for someone to come save her).

But there's more. Even if we assume Yasu wanted to be stopped in Prime and that's why she orchestrated the games maybe all she wanted Battler to stop was her marriage with George

Ah poor Kannon, no-one thinks his love has a chance do they?


And she handed it afterward

But she didn't, she handed it out BEFORE the game but AFTER anyone would know she had done it, this does not seem very useful to anyone.

Of all the siblings only Krauss said he knew how to convert it in money (and he might have lied) and likely he couldn't convert it all in just a blink.

It's possible Genji too knew how to convert it in money, though it's also possible that the money he handed to Yasu was merely Kinzo's property and didn't come out of the gold.

Well it seems someone was able to convert it onto the card, or the very least the money sent in the envelopes. After all, Krauss controlled Kinzo's money (the none-gold money), so Yasu must have got the payment from somewhere.

ow, Yasu might have not hold her part of the bargain and not sent out the money... but she decided to do so anyway.


Hmm, that sounds shaky. I'd have been happier had you said that she always keeps her promises, so sends out the money because she said she would. However, this still wouldn't have been much piece of mind to the adults.

Yes, that's why the motive for the people cooperating with Yasu also seems weak on the gameboard.

Which is why in confessions she has them cooperate just long enough to kill them easily. When looked at like that, it isn't hard to see why she needed to off Hideyoshi and Eva so soon in Ep 1, they had been part to a very risky move right off the bat.

Like Genji she might have known how to reach the gold.
Well then why attempt the epitaph at all? She knew about the secret mansion and B2 long before it existed, so she mustn't have known the answer. Maybe she just solved it after Genji spoonfed Yasu some sweet sweet answer. And in a complete troll moment, wasn't her meta-witch the original Beatrice anyway (I don't really believe that, but it is interesting to think on)?

Natsuhi who's paying them and that suddently found herself hiring someone she didn't hire?

I believe it was stated that he was hired directly by Kinzo (ie through Genji) as were any servants who wore the one-winged eagle. This is why Natsuhi didn't trust him anyway, and why she had a special trust of Ghoda. That explains why he became trusted so quickly. And we know the Nanjo and Kumi likely knew the truth. As for the other servants, there are probably many explanations that could be used, but basically, after three years he would be in the clear (as everyone moves on) and it is stated there aren't usually so many servants on the island anyway (more for the family conference), so he probably could have just worked on days when only select people were around anyway. Or Ryu never thought that part through.

Ange actually had two hopes:

Neither of those hopes deny my theory though, as you could still say that her hope was to find these answers at least.

Would an accident like that make her kill herself either? I feel it has to somehow destroy some idea she has been holding onto to keep her alive.

That referred to Ange killing herself due to the mystery game having caused a massacre, as in the paranoia theory.


She's very active and not at all passive in the games.

I guess that works with her creating this active persona of Beatrice, but this all comes back to how we interpret Ryu's words and Ange's reaction again.

For a fake murder there are really tons of tricks she could use...
Only if she wanted to make the Ushiromiya's suspect someone on the island of murder. Also, if she is as passive as you believe, why would she run away and abandon everything when nothing had changed otherwise? Running away and killing oneself are still actions she would have to take.


And some general thoughts:

1. Wasn't the whole mirror smashing (which happened arguably in all games) meant to represent Shannon giving into Baetrice's taunts about staying passive leading to everything staying the same forever? This could be seen as her finally taking action....
2. There is the possibility she has shown resolve to hurt someone before. It is possible that the servant who disrespected Beatrice before falling down the stairs may have actually been a true story, and after all, we know Genji is good at quietly cleaning up the mess of his master....(we also suspect that Yasu apparently liked to make others believe in Beatrice, and post-mirror smash and post-Maria snapping, who know what she became capable of)
3. People always bring up that we know almost nothing about R-Prime, but Ryu himself stated he gave out enough clues to know what happened with pretty much absolute certainty. If this causes people to complain that the only clues we have pertain to events that happened in the games, then that must be where the clues to what happened on R-Prime lie. After all, Battler does know the truth, he just doesn't remember it all at once.
4. The problem with basing culprit theories solely off Ange's reaction, is that her family being the culprit isn't the only thing she could have read in that book she thought was terrible. A big theme in the games was the children's disgust over how their parents were acting over the money, maybe she read something about how her supposedly sinless parents let their greed take over all other morals, and got themselves and others killed in an otherwise avoidable manner. I have thrown around a few other theories about what she may have read in there, all I am saying is, YES we know she thought it was terrible, but what clues do we have about what the terrible thing actually was otherwise?

The only problem here is a lot of Ryu's clues are more apparent once you know the answer, and the only way to distinguish them from the red herrings before that point is to look for one answer that ties everything together neatly (which he likes) and cross your fingers.

[jjblue1]

I refer specifically to people who state Ryu was saying she imagined (planned) the whole incident, then claiming she was otherwise ready to carry out a separate incident (e.g. her suicide). I am simply saying they can't have it both ways, unless they are saying the two times Ryu uses "incident" he means different things.

We go back to square 1 & 2.
The sentences were said in different moments so taken in context the word can have different meanings and we don't know if the sentences referred solely to PieceYasu or also to PrimeYasu or one referred solely to PieceYasu while the other referred to both.

This is only true if you ignore the theory that she may have created a part of herself that was capable of doing this, playing the role of the killer as it were. It would tie in well with Maria's witch personality going sour.

The problem is that Maria's evil persona never killed anyone and likely represented merely Maria using her immagination to vent her anger.
The dilemma with Yasu is that I think nearly all the fandom believes her capable to picture herself as committing the murders but only few see her as capable of actually carrying on her plan in Prime.

Ah poor Kannon, no-one thinks his love has a chance do they?

Well, even Umineko depicts him as always losing to Shannon because he started too late.

But she didn't, she handed it out BEFORE the game but AFTER anyone would know she had done it, this does not seem very useful to anyone.

With handed afterward I mean they were supposed to receive it afterward. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough. Basically what I think Yasu did was saying 'if you do this, you'll receive money' then thrusted them to do as she said and sent the money anyway. They wouldn't know she had sent the money and obey her. Assuming the plan wasn't to kill them once they would get home they would find the money and if they managed to connect it to Shannon/Kanon/Yasu... well, if she really committed suicide it would make sense she had to send it beorehand, if she didn't but merely faked her death it still won't prove she's alive.

Well it seems someone was able to convert it onto the card, or the very least the money sent in the envelopes. After all, Krauss controlled Kinzo's money (the none-gold money), so Yasu must have got the payment from somewhere.

We don't really know if the money really came from the gold or from... let's say Kinzo's secret bank account.
I might be wrong but apparently Krauss didn't really control Kinzo's money that much, he just used Kinzo's name as insurance. Until Kinzo's death Kinzo controlled his own money. If after he died Krauss could have had access to Kinzo's money he could have paid his debts.

Hmm, that sounds shaky. I'd have been happier had you said that she always keeps her promises, so sends out the money because she said she would. However, this still wouldn't have been much piece of mind to the adults.

Well, as she decided to do that anyway she evidently decided to honour her promise. The 10 little indians reference was in regard to how she managed to persuade everyone to cooperate.

Which is why in confessions she has them cooperate just long enough to kill them easily. When looked at like that, it isn't hard to see why she needed to off Hideyoshi and Eva so soon in Ep 1, they had been part to a very risky move right off the bat.

The problem is actually here. Hideyoshi entered and had the chance to give a good look at the corpses so it's hard to think he didn't realize they weren't fake and the game was a real murder.
At this point they should have panicked, realized it wasn't a game and they had been tricked and tattled out what they know.
In Our Confession Yasu depicts everyone as pretty selfish so it's possible that on the gameboard Eva and Hideyoshi were willing to cooperate with a murderer but it's hard to think that the real Eva and Hideyoshi would do the same... unless Rokkenjima hosted quite a good group of monsters.

Well then why attempt the epitaph at all? She knew about the secret mansion and B2 long before it existed, so she mustn't have known the answer. Maybe she just solved it after Genji spoonfed Yasu some sweet sweet answer. And in a complete troll moment, wasn't her meta-witch the original Beatrice anyway (I don't really believe that, but it is interesting to think on)?

She liked quizzes and all Genji gave to Yasu was an info about where Kinzo had birth.
Technically Kumasawa was Yasu's teacher (same as Virgilia was for Beato) and as she might have behind some pranks and loved to spread rumors she might have represented the 'previous Beato'.
"Beatrice" is just a title after all.

I believe it was stated that he was hired directly by Kinzo (ie through Genji) as were any servants who wore the one-winged eagle. This is why Natsuhi didn't trust him anyway, and why she had a special trust of Ghoda.

But this would require Kinzo's complicity as he would have to hire Shannon to play Kanon's role and you lack a motive for him to do this. Otherwise Shannon would have to be so good/devious to trick him into hiring her again, believing she was a boy, without even checking Kanon's reference and making Kanon a trusted servant even though he didn't know him or his background.
Plus remember Natsuhi tends to check the servants' work so if Shannon adn Kanon's schedule were to cross one of them wouldn't be able to do his job and she would notice.

I guess that works with her creating this active persona of Beatrice, but this all comes back to how we interpret Ryu's words and Ange's reaction again.

I doubt Ange would commit suicide if she could pin the crime to Shannon as she would have proved her parents weren't teh culprits. She wouldn't need to die to paint over the truth she read her truth.

However Eva's diary while containing the truth might not have contained the WHOLE truth.
If Eva for example saw Kirye shooting at someone and wrote it in the diary this would be true but it wouldn't contain why Kirye shoot to that person. If Kirye did so because she believed that person was actually trying to kill her, regardless of this being true or false, Kirye wouldn't be an evil murderer, just someone who acted in what she believed was self defence.

But Eva couldn't know what was in Kirye's mind so her diary can't contain Kirye's motivations just what she had seen.

Only if she wanted to make the Ushiromiya's suspect someone on the island of murder. Also, if she is as passive as you believe, why would she run away and abandon everything when nothing had changed otherwise? Running away and killing oneself are still actions she would have to take.

Escaping from problems is what people with passive stance does instead of trying to resolve their troubles.

1. Wasn't the whole mirror smashing (which happened arguably in all games) meant to represent Shannon giving into Baetrice's taunts about staying passive leading to everything staying the same forever? This could be seen as her finally taking action....

That scene can be interepreted in many ways... if it even happened.

2. There is the possibility she has shown resolve to hurt someone before. It is possible that the servant who disrespected Beatrice before falling down the stairs may have actually been a true story, and after all, we know Genji is good at quietly cleaning up the mess of his master....(we also suspect that Yasu apparently liked to make others believe in Beatrice, and post-mirror smash and post-Maria snapping, who know what she became capable of)

Yes, it's possible she's actually a psycotic who takes pleasure in hurting others. This solution is generally disliked because Umineko ranted about how displeasing is this sort of solution. Basically instead of EvilBattler of "Forgery No. XXX" you would have EvilYasu.

3. People always bring up that we know almost nothing about R-Prime, but Ryu himself stated he gave out enough clues to know what happened with pretty much absolute certainty. If this causes people to complain that the only clues we have pertain to events that happened in the games, then that must be where the clues to what happened on R-Prime lie. After all, Battler does know the truth, he just doesn't remember it all at once.

To quote Ryukishi he might believe he actually gave enough clues but the same might not be true for his readers whose main complains however isn't the lack of clues but the lack of proofs to say that one of the many theories is the true one.

There are many, many theories about Prime but no one can pin one FOR SURE because there's not enough proofs to make it the only possible solution.

A big theme in the games was the children's disgust over how their parents were acting over the money, maybe she read something about how her supposedly sinless parents let their greed take over all other morals, and got themselves and others killed in an otherwise avoidable manner.

Basically this was the truth she wanted as she wanted to pin Eva as culprit and I think she would even be fine if it was Rosa that was the culprit or Krauss. She wouldn't need to rewrite it.
Ange at the time was plagued by the Battler's family culprit theory that used Rudolf's dirty business and Battler's sudden return in the family to say her parents and brother killed everyone.
Likely it was this theory the one she wanted to rewrite with her 'death'.

[Kealym]

And what I was referring to with the windows, was if it was said in game there was a way to escape the room not using the windows I would be very interested to hear theories on it, if it were said on these boards there is less onus for it to be true.
Ah. I'm rather certain that, in the game, escape by the window was the only possible solution. At the same time, Erika never figures out Shkanon, so when she can't explain how Kanon escaped the Guesthouse, Beatrice essentially went "Well, whatever. I won't make you explain that trick, and we'll just assume that he does it 'somehow'." There's nothing else really available to use besides Shannon left by the window, activated Kanon mode for the lulz.

And the thing I was trying to say about Bern's puzzle is the white narration (which HAS to be true) said that "Nanjo was killed in the entrance hall to the guest house", which if we follow to the letter means that George's "no one could kill Doctor Nanjo inside the guesthouse!" false by default. Unless this is a translation error in the patch it is a logic error in the game for George NOT to be lying, hence why I chose him over Battler.
Ah, you're right. It still works though if 'killed' is being used as an adjective, which I guess it has to be. You can call it either a less than perfection moment in the translation, or just a hilariously misleading sentence. I dunno, I dunno how the original japanese line was. Anyways, the other side of what I meant is that when your reasoning gets down to "George or Battler, who's lying?" George doesn't have anyone he could have murdered, so he's out.

Well, VERY technically speaking, you might say George could have killed Kanon, but her game seems to both acknowledge and disregard Kanon, and it's more like he goes poof as soon as Shannon dies rather than being killed outright.:uhoh:

[Wanderer]

Which is why in confessions she has them cooperate just long enough to kill them easily. When looked at like that, it isn't hard to see why she needed to off Hideyoshi and Eva so soon in Ep 1, they had been part to a very risky move right off the bat.

Sure, but Hideyoshi and Eva are not Yasu's only accomplices in EP1; and Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo weren't offed until the very end. So is it that they were all OK with loyally following an insane mass murderer?

People always bring up that we know almost nothing about R-Prime, but Ryu himself stated he gave out enough clues to know what happened with pretty much absolute certainty. If this causes people to complain that the only clues we have pertain to events that happened in the games, then that must be where the clues to what happened on R-Prime lie. After all, Battler does know the truth, he just doesn't remember it all at once.

I don't agree (and incidentally this quote also refers to Ange reading the Tome of One Truth too):

K I thought about wether it was actually Ikuko who had read Eva’s Tome of the One and Only Truth. Even though she said that she herself „did not have the qualification to read it“.

R The Tome of the One and Only Truth is something, if you take the depiction of the higher plane, something that Ange unlocks herself with a key and then reads. You might also see this as a symbol for Ange „maybe reading it on accident on her own“. Maybe by reading it, she was able to create her believe in the Golden Truth. Or maybe it was by reading it, that she decided to head for the Trick Ending.

K There is also the chance that this book holds something that will very likely make her commit suicide, right?!

R This is something that the player can understand as he likes, so I won’t say anything further. Though, if you turn this scene around a bit, you can actually arrive at it’s truth. This work is studded with such hints. If he can arrive there is something that is up to the player. In that sense, Umineko is probably a pretty adult game. I have the impression that Higurashi was a pretty casual story, aimed at a young audience, but Umineko is a pretty bitter story.

K When I though about Battler’s and the other’s intention, I wondered whether it was a bad thing to pursue the truth of the catbox. But this cannot be true on the reader level. Even though the main direction of the solution process is the same for everyone, there seem to be small parts that everyone interprets differently.

R I think it’s really fascinating that you can see the differences in how those people lead their lifes in those small things.

K Do you think that having this many different theories in that certain range is better than denoting one truth?

R Of course. Because I wanted to leave this margin. I never had the intention to give just one answer, like in Bern’s Trial. But I made it in a way that, if you investigate deep enough, you will get an answer that is beyond doubt.

K So is it that there is only one truth, like you just said?

R Of course there is only one, but because by telling it I would have limited the scope of ideas, I made it a bit looser. I was designing a concept that expected a little bit more effort from the reader side. Depending on whether the pivot leg is Beatrice or Ange, many parts of how you look at the story change.In a further and unrelated question, was it in one of the games or on here that I read that as any theories denying the use of the window to escape the sealed room in the wedding episode (EP 6 I guess?) did not create a logic error, there must be another way to do it?Ah. I'm rather certain that, in the game, escape by the window was the only possible solution. At the same time, Erika never figures out Shkanon, so when she can't explain how Kanon escaped the Guesthouse, Beatrice essentially went "Well, whatever. I won't make you explain that trick, and we'll just assume that he does it 'somehow'." There's nothing else really available to use besides Shannon left by the window, activated Kanon mode for the lulz.

There was no escape from the cousins' room. It was a perfect closed room.

I will expand on Kealym's explanation.

Beatrice decided to give Erika a 'handicap' and said she could use X to explain how Kanon left the "cousins' room". Of course this is because Kanon was never actually in the "cousins' room", but was 'sleeping dormant' within Shannon in the "next room over", which is why he wasn't included in "everyone else is in the cousins' room". At some point Kanon mode 'activated' and he exited the window of the "next room over", which was never confirmed to have maintained its seal at the time of the logic error (so the seal could simply have been broken without its status verified, and no one was going to verify it because all attention was on the window in the "cousins' room" instead).

Erika may have figured it all out if she asked the right questions, so Beatrice drew her attention away from the guesthouse with the 'handicap' thing. Crafty, isn't she?

But it is a logic error if you don't accept Kanon "sleeping dormant" allowing him to not be included in "everyone else".

[GuestSpeaker]

The sentences were said in different moments so taken in context the word can have different meanings and we don't know if the sentences referred solely to PieceYasu or also to PrimeYasu or one referred solely to PieceYasu while the other referred to both.

I would argue that they would have to refer to the same thing (either way) for them to make sense, but that is purely my feelings on the matter.

e problem is that Maria's evil persona never killed anyone and likely represented merely Maria using her immagination to vent her anger.

That is likely true, though she was quite young. However I once thought there was a slim chance she actually lead to Rosa's death in game 3 (the accident), and then was 'laid to rest' by Beato in some odd act of mercy. That was just because I thought Maria seemed thhhiiiiiisss close to snapping in that game.

Actually speaking of game three, I never quite understood who killed Nanjo, I know it has something to do with standing in the doorway and the crime occurring earlier than we thought or something though....

Also in relation to game three, was everyone killed by something other than the bomb at the end? I seem to remember they were. If not the red "Absolutely no factors other than humans participate in this game board (This is in response to any factor such as animals or robots that might have been involved.)" becomes a bit iffy...


Basically what I think Yasu did was saying 'if you do this, you'll receive money' then thrusted them to do as she said and sent the money anyway. They wouldn't know she had sent the money and obey her.

That is a clever way to look at it, but you could take her thinking that she wouldn't be able to send it afterward to mean various things...


We don't really know if the money really came from the gold or from... let's say Kinzo's secret bank account.

Possible, though it makes what was said in game 7 a complete lie (was it there she said she had already converted some of it?)


she evidently decided to honour her promise
Assuming she made said promise in the first place, which we don't really know. As for the ten little Indians reference, it certainly is a possible explanation.

At this point they should have panicked, realized it wasn't a game and they had been tricked and tattled out what they know.

Though in the gameboards people seemed to believe the game (if it was occuring) till quite late, possibly as they also didn't want to move the "fake" corpses too much. However it is also possible they freaked out and decided to talk about what to do in private.

And lets face it, they were willing to carry out a prank that involved the family legitimately believing other members of the family were gruesomely murdered. I find it suspicious that they would go this far without coercion, which is why I always thought it went a little like in Confessions, where the culprit abandons that farce whenever they need to and uses some other method to keep the players in line. That or kills them.

Technically Kumasawa was Yasu's teacher (same as Virgilia was for Beato) and as she might have behind some pranks and loved to spread rumors she might have represented the 'previous Beato'.
"Beatrice" is just a title after all.

I agree with both these points and also think that is why that line about her being the former Beatrice was used. However it breaks no rules (including considering how Yasu officially got the title) to read it the way I stated.
More importantly, Genji wanted Yasu to solve he riddle for Kinzo, whether it was needed or shown or not, I'm guessing he would have prodded her to the answer one way or another.


But this would require Kinzo's complicity as he would have to hire Shannon to play Kanon's role and you lack a motive for him to do this.

Well, excepting the fact Kinzo was looking for Beatrice through that house anyway, Genji could have just told Natsuhi that Kinzo ordered it, or encouraged Kinzo to do so. Ep 7 implies Genji was behind Shannon's hiring, and Kannon and Kinzo were only both around together for a year or less anyway.

But Eva couldn't know what was in Kirye's mind so her diary can't contain Kirye's motivations just what she had seen.

This is certainly plausible and even likely, I am merely saying that the culprit being revealed to be her family isn't the only thing that could be in the book to make her commit suicide, therefore this line of logic regarding the culprit is not as rock solid as it could be.

I am sure it is probably wrong, but it certainly would be a lovely Bern move to promise the truth of the Rokkenjima (oh no, I finally had to attempt to spell it) incident be in the book, only to read that the truth was "no-one really knows what happened on that day".

Escaping from problems is what people with passive stance does instead of trying to resolve their troubles.

True, though her proposed way of avoiding it is still pretty elaborate and requires a pretty big leap on her part, there would be easier ways to do it surely.


That scene can be interepreted in many ways... if it even happened.
At the very least it likely happened in all games, so author Yasu felt the need to show her finally growing some backbone. Though I suppose this could be wishful thinking.

Yes, it's possible she's actually a psycotic who takes pleasure in hurting others. This solution is generally disliked because Umineko ranted about how displeasing is this sort of solution

I always took the ranting to mean that the answer wasn't simply "Yasu is evil and kills because Yasu is evil and kills", and we were given plenty of motivations for her to be bitter and angry and violent. She can do whatever she likes, as long as she has motive.

There are many, many theories about Prime but no one can pin one FOR SURE because there's not enough proofs to make it the only possible solution.

Haha, I agree, though according to Ryu if we just investigated a little more there is.
Though really I just sit around trying to create trouble with well established and likely scenarios, all because of a few of his other ambiguous comments in interview.


Basically this was the truth she wanted as she wanted to pin Eva as culprit

I thought that in Ep 4 as from the conversation with, darn how do you spell it, Okinagi? She was considering that maybe Eva wasn't the culprit (bit late to have that convo Ange). Though I agree there were certainly truths she DIDN'T want to hear (despite her promises otherwise).


Ah. I'm rather certain that, in the game, escape by the window was the only possible solution

Ah yes, I understood how they carried out the scenario, Kanon switch and all, I guess someone on here must have said that since that route could be blocked with no logic error there must be another way to do it.
As a side note Erika should have seen that crushing defeat coming, Beatrice wasn't going to let her ignore the escape from the room unless she had an even more heinous problem to give her. It's the same as in an argument with me, if I ever ask you to agree to a statement, warning bells better be going off.

Well, VERY technically speaking, you might say George could have killed Kanon
I originally thought I was being all clever by thinking George killed Kannon by proposing to Shannon, except the game stated that they died at the same time (something I conveniently ignored apparently). Though we all know how Ryu got around this problem anyway.

[Drifloon]

Since it's being discussed, one thing I always thought was odd about the logic error closed room was that Featherine seemed to be saying in the meta-conversation with Ange that there was still some move available to solve it after Dlanor sealed the windows of the next room over.

But in the end, the actual solution DID end up involving someone exiting the next room over. Kind of disappointing, honestly.

Edit: Missed this.

Actually speaking of game three, I never quite understood who killed Nanjo, I know it has something to do with standing in the doorway and the crime occurring earlier than we thought or something though....

Two possible solutions:
-Rudolf, Hideyoshi or Kyrie wasn't dead when they were discovered. They killed Nanjo, then died themselves for some reason.
-Beatrice killed him, since she can still survive after Shannon and Kanon are dead.

Generally I tend to go for the latter since the former is part of Battler's attempt to solve everything in EP4 where he got pretty much everything else wrong.

[Joachim13]

Regarding Kumasawa culprit theory, is it poosible to follow this line of reasoning:
If Kumasawa had found the gold, then if she were to commit the crimes she would have known to hide in Kuwadorian from everyone else if she didn't kill everyone, or simply found out about the bombs(unlikely though). The only murder I can seriously see Kumasawa pulling off is poisoning the adults after the kids left the conference through their tea or such. Kumasawa could only fulfuill the role of a temporary accompolice, but never the main culprit as she probably wouldn't have died otherwise. EP1 being the exception however as Kumasawa does survive until the second to last murders and the reason she died was because Genji or Nanjo either knew her identity and (a) were accomplices that didn't want her alive, or (b) she attempted to shoot one of them, or even possibly did do so, then the survivor tried to shoot Kumasawa at the same time she tried to shoot them. Thus the twiligt is complete. Then Kanon(who's death was never witnessed was the final culprit that shot Natushi.)
And I can also see Kumasawa being the one to tell Maria to sing, and the way she told her could have easilly made her feel Beatrice was talking through Kumasawa. This can further supported on the theory that since Yasu had talked with Maria as Beatrice about the fantasy characters Maria had related Virgilia, previous Beatrice, with Kumasawa. And EP7 shows Kumasawa acknowledging Yasu as Beatrice, so the witty old lady may have taken part in the tea parties between Maria and Yasu as being possesed by Virgilia, or even being her human incarnation. If Kumasawa had told Maria not to tell anyone that she was actually an age old witch, Maria probably would have stayed silent about it.
Also, in EP4 Kumasawa and Ghoda are sensible accomplices to the culprit as either of them could have randomly poisoned 6 teacups and put some other drug in the other cups, possibly leading to hallucinations. Afterwards Kumasawa has been shown to be a great actress so her freaking out before the cousins could have been a farce, and then neither may have thought that the culprit wouldn't kill them as accomplices in the shed, so they gave that person the key and they were murdered. Then the key would just be tossed back through the window.
I apologize if this has already been brought and is therefore useless information to bog your grey cells.

Opinions/logic errors?

[AuraTwilight]

Kumasawa is not a murderer.

[battle22]

It is forbidden for a servant to be the culprit!!

[GreyZone]

Well... I would not use Van Dine's rules just like that. Because then it would also be fact that it's forbidden for a cigaratte butt to be employed as a detective technique. AND it's forbidden for love scenes, to be in the story.

[Joachim13]

Just to clarify, the first half of my thoughts were why Kumasawa can't be the culprit, with the exception of being an accompolice, which is what the second half was. I still think that Kumasawa being the one to tell Maria to sing is probable, reguardless of whether she had any intentions killing someone. Also, I find it weird to question the possibility that Kumasawa has never murdered anyone do to the 5-8 Twilights in EP1. I haven't thought beyond Battler's theory from Alliance with the exception that only person A shot person B, then in self-defense person C shot A, and at the same time A shot C. 2 out of the 3 would have killed another person and I just can't see Nanjo with a gun... Old ladies though can be mean. ;)

[GreyZone]

Just to clarify, the first half of my thoughts were why Kumasawa can't be the culprit, with the exception of being an accompolice, which is what the second half was. I still think that Kumasawa being the one to tell Maria to sing is probable, reguardless of whether she had any intentions killing someone. Also, I find it weird to question the possibility that Kumasawa has never murdered anyone do to the 5-8 Twilights in EP1. I haven't thought beyond Battler's theory from Alliance with the exception that only person A shot person B, then in self-defense person C shot A, and at the same time A shot C. 2 out of the 3 would have killed another person and I just can't see Nanjo with a gun... Old ladies though can be mean. ;)

Then who told Maria to hide the guns? If it was "Beatrice", then she could have told her to sing from the beginning...

[jjblue1]

That is likely true, though she was quite young. However I once thought there was a slim chance she actually lead to Rosa's death in game 3 (the accident), and then was 'laid to rest' by Beato in some odd act of mercy. That was just because I thought Maria seemed thhhiiiiiisss close to snapping in that game.

Honestly I doubt Maria carried Rosa out to kill her by pushing her against the fence. I think it's more likely that Yasu instructed her to take Rosa out she did and Yasu killed Rosa and Maria.

However the solution about Rosa and Maria's death wasn't given so anything goes.

Also in relation to game three, was everyone killed by something other than the bomb at the end? I seem to remember they were. If not the red "Absolutely no factors other than humans participate in this game board (This is in response to any factor such as animals or robots that might have been involved.)" becomes a bit iffy...

Battler was shoot by Eva. Jessica's status is unknown and so is Yasu. Eva escaped in Kuwadorian. Everyone else was already dead.

Possible, though it makes what was said in game 7 a complete lie (was it there she said she had already converted some of it?)

Game 7 contained some embellishment/lies plus the scene you're referring at is the Tea Party which is generally considered not trustworthy.

Though in the gameboards people seemed to believe the game (if it was occuring) till quite late, possibly as they also didn't want to move the "fake" corpses too much. However it is also possible they freaked out and decided to talk about what to do in private.

My impression is that on the gameboard all the pieces acts as horribly selfish when Yasu moves them, at least that's the feeling I get from Our confession but that in truth they weren't so bad because, when we see them from Battler's perspective, we see they also had a caring side.

And lets face it, they were willing to carry out a prank that involved the family legitimately believing other members of the family were gruesomely murdered. I find it suspicious that they would go this far without coercion, which is why I always thought it went a little like in Confessions, where the culprit abandons that farce whenever they need to and uses some other method to keep the players in line. That or kills them.

In Ep 5 case it was to 'return the favour' to Natsuhi as she was insisting Kinzo was alive, in Ep 6 it was to prank Erika as she claimed to be a detective.
It was Halloween, the Ushiromiya were used to celebrate it, Kinzo, Eva and Rudolf were said to have fun scaring the cousins. According to various circumstances people might have thought of it as just a game, expecially if many were in on the fact it was just a game (in EP 6 everyone is in minus Erika and Erika doesn't look scared) and they wouldn't have even need to be paid.

"Battler is back and he's a fan of mystery, let's celebrate his coming back with a mystery game!"

Though I think it didn't go that smoothly with everyone some might have just accepted it easily.

The problem would start when someone would die for real.

I agree with both these points and also think that is why that line about her being the former Beatrice was used. However it breaks no rules (including considering how Yasu officially got the title) to read it the way I stated.

Most of Umineko can have many intepretations, yes.

More importantly, Genji wanted Yasu to solve he riddle for Kinzo, whether it was needed or shown or not, I'm guessing he would have prodded her to the answer one way or another.

Genji left most of it to fate. For 8 years he did absolutely nothing about Yasu being recognized by Kinzo. Then he realized Kinzo was about to die and dropped a hint to Shannon. Actually, if he really wanted to force things he might have handed her the whole solution or just told Kinzo the truth.
Shannon didn't say she was trying to solve the epitaph and he couldn't know if she would manage to do so so actually if things went as they were shown what he did was pretty small.
Will though said Yasu was made solve the epitaph and the riddle is supposed to be hard so it's possible she received other hints we don't know about.

Well, excepting the fact Kinzo was looking for Beatrice through that house anyway, Genji could have just told Natsuhi that Kinzo ordered it, or encouraged Kinzo to do so. Ep 7 implies Genji was behind Shannon's hiring, and Kannon and Kinzo were only both around together for a year or less anyway.

But why Genji should have asked Shannon to play Kanon's role in front of Kinzo?
In the same way if Shannon didn't know she was Kinzo's daughter and heir and therefore Genji's 'master' is unlikely she would have asked him to let her play a double role as it would have been trickery toward Genji's master to whom he was believed to be very loyal.
The easy answer is: Shannon created an imaginary brother then Kinzo died, Natsuhi needed to hide the thing when the siblings were around so in order not to lower the number of the servants around and at the same time to not have servants that could be questioned by the siblings about facts that could lead them to guess Kinzo is dead she asked Shannon to play that extra role (or Shannon suggested it either to her or to Genji). So all the 'let's hide Kinzo's death group' would be aware of this and help keeping up the illusion.

This is certainly plausible and even likely, I am merely saying that the culprit being revealed to be her family isn't the only thing that could be in the book to make her commit suicide, therefore this line of logic regarding the culprit is not as rock solid as it could be.

Surely there can be other truths she might have wanted to overwrite but Umineko clearly pointed to her fear that her parents and Battler were involved in the murder and to her fear her hope for someone to be back was going to be mooth. If it's something else there's no hints.

At the very least it likely happened in all games, so author Yasu felt the need to show her finally growing some backbone. Though I suppose this could be wishful thinking.

No, Yasu/Shannon broke the mirror only in Ep 2.

I always took the ranting to mean that the answer wasn't simply "Yasu is evil and kills because Yasu is evil and kills", and we were given plenty of motivations for her to be bitter and angry and violent. She can do whatever she likes, as long as she has motive.

We fall back in 'the motive is weak as it would require her to be willing to kill just to get Battler's attention'... which is pretty crazy...
While some of the murders can fall in the revenge section for some things go too much out of proportion to consider revenge an acceptable motive.

Gohda could put her in troubles so let's kill him?
She would never manage to love Jessica/George so let's kill them (force them to be part of her suicide scheme)?
Hideyoshi was Eva's husband and Eva was against her marrying George?
Maria... well she would be a orphan after she killed Rosa who actually never did something against her though she beat Maria so let's kill her as well?

Those motives are crazy though they can still be 'motives'.
But if the solution is Yasu is mad it becomes unsatisfing, possible but unsatisfing.

Haha, I agree, though according to Ryu if we just investigated a little more there is.

Again it's Ryukishi's opinion and for it to have some basis he should at least have tested it on many people since his hints were often pretty vague.

For example pick up the "Yasu is the daughter of Beato 2" theory. It's possible to form another theory that said that "Yasu believed/was made believe she was the daughter of Beato 2 but actually this isn't true". It was the topic of a discussion some posts ago.
If Yasu isn't Kinzo's legittimate heir you can suspect that... let's say Genji tricked her into thinking so for his own ends and that he's actually the mastermind behind the tragedy and even managed to escape with some money he converted.

Yasu survived and tralized she'd been tricked sos he wrote the tales feeling guilty for what had happened.

Eva also was tricked into doing/thinking something by Genji so she's keeping silent.

Though this theory for Prime is likely not the right one (even if on Prime Knox and Van Dine shouldn't work I think Ryukishi still intended for the servants not to be the culprits) it is possible to form it with the hints given.

Though really I just sit around trying to create trouble with well established and likely scenarios, all because of a few of his other ambiguous comments in interview.

Oh I love creating scenarios as well, it's probably the part I like the most about Umineko... though at the same time I get many of the scenarios I've fun creating couldn't possibly be the intended solution... even if they work.

[GuestSpeaker]

Since it's being discussed, one thing I always thought was odd about the logic error closed room was that Featherine seemed to be saying in the meta-conversation with Ange that there was still some move available to solve it after Dlanor sealed the windows of the next room over.

THAT was the scene I was thinking of, I knew I read it somewhere. So I guess no-one found another solution?

Two possible solutions:

And how did you get around the truth that only Jessica and Nanjo where in the room? the doorway and still point blank? Or the crime of killing Battler being the one Beato referred to in her red truth?

Also, if it WAS Beato who killed him, it brings a whole new twisted edge to the scene where Kannon then leads Jessica to safety.

Regarding Kumasawa culprit theory

I don't really think she is a culprit, her being an accomplice is pretty much undeniable. However, just how much did she lie about for how long do you think? I'd say if she were to have solved the riddle at some point, it may explain why she kept up the farce for so long, maybe she was being paid to keep it all a secret. It's not like she hasn't kept a few big and even some terrible secrets in the past.

it's forbidden for a cigaratte butt to be employed as a detective technique.

Well, apart from the fact we can suspect Ryu only followed the Van Dine he mentioned, another point about that is, it was likely wrong in implicating Eva as the killer.

AND it's forbidden for love scenes, to be in the story.

My gosh I wish this had been true by some of the later games, why couldn't George have disappeared pre-proposal. It would have saved me having to read that scene again AND Beato could have taunted the heck out of Shannon (take THAT weaker personality). Furthermore, Ryu said himself if he followed all of Van Dine's rules there wouldn't have been any heart in the story, hence the glossing.


then she could have told her to sing from the beginning

Aside from the fact that no matter who killed who or told who to sing, Beato probably just locked the door after walking out, or Maria did it for her. Didn't Will have a cryptic truth about Maria's song I never quite understood? Like it being false? Maybe Maria had time to walk away from the wall what with the family all walking so slowly.

Honestly I doubt Maria carried Rosa out to kill her by pushing her against the fence

It is raining, all she needs to do is be off balance to slip. Besides, don't forget how strong Ryu made Satako whenever she snapped.


The Tea Party which is generally considered not trustworthy.

Yet "Truth of a sort" Witch-Hunter Sensai.

I get from Our confession but that in truth they weren't so bad


The message I got from those later games is just because the family conference was a stressful time, and this time they were all in need of money, and MAYBE they acted selfishly or foolishly at some point, doesn't mean they were 100% bad. For example, we know it is likely Kinzo did become bitter and crazy towards the end, doesn't mean he didn't used to be a wonderful grandfather. The point of that game, for me, was to show that in real life they were more balanced, and weren't just "I am evil and greedy so I will kill". However, that doesn't mean they couldn't be coerced or have had a weak moment (we know from Higurashi that Ryu believes human beings capable of pretty bad things).

'return the favour' to Natsuhi as she was insisting Kinzo was alive
My problem with this was always how they got Jessica to play along. This wasn't a game for Battler, this wasn't to show up some bratty detective, this was a horrible prank to convince her mother she had died, to make her reveal a secret Jessica didn't know. It is a bit sus....

Most of Umineko can have many intepretations, yes.

If it didn't, would this board still be active at all after the series had ended?
Darn Ryu nailed that one on the head.

hard so it's possible she received other hints we don't know about.

I am sure Genji could have arranged it as needs be. He clearly wanted her to do it before Kinzo died, but as she was brought in before the epitaph, I guess he didn't always have that feeling.

'let's hide Kinzo's death group' would be aware of this and help keeping up the illusion.

The problem is she didn't seem to have much knowledge of it during the games. Either she was that desperate to keep Kinzo's death a secret (for some reason Ryu said it is what allowed the murders of the first game to go on didn't he?) or she left briefing the servants involved to Genji. I am pretty sure timeline wise, Kannon was aroung for some point before Kinzo died.

Though it would add an interesting layer as to why Kannon initially denied Jessica's love, if in the beginning (emphasis there), even Yasu thought of him as not a real person. Then he gained life through (a rather inferior as we know) love...

for someone to be back was going to be mooth. If it's something else there's no hints.

Hence why I usually stress the latter one. Though I wouldn't say there were NO hints. I mean, wouldn't it be a nice troll move if after her long journey, the diary had the same message that Eva left her with which caused her to head up to the roof in the first place?

Not likely, but you could say it was hinted at.

No, Yasu/Shannon broke the mirror only in Ep 2.

I was pretty sure Beato referenced the mirror breaking and her getting her powers back in other games as well. As it happened before the game board it COULD be something that happened in every world, and I always took that it was sort of synonymous with the shrine going bye bye.


We fall back in 'the motive is weak as it would require her to be willing to kill just to get Battler's attention'

I guess that depends on A if you think the obsessional love of a broken person is weak (broken as in, life of loneliness and rejection followed by six years of torture and living with self hatred because it is probably her body's inability to love that always gets in her way)

gain it's Ryukishi's opinion and for it to have some basis he should at least have tested it on many people since his hints were often pretty vague.

Hence crossing fingers. But isn't it sort of fun knowing he believes he has pretty much written down the answer. In the past, his reasoning as to how you narrow down the possibilities is that only 1 ties absolutely everything together, but we know there should be at least two solutions to pivot around in this case.

Which reminds me, what DO you guys think the Beato/Ange pivot answers are? I was really hoping Beato's wasn't that magic did it all, because really she was the witch of pretending magic did it all.

And if you really believe that Yasu didn't have a strong enough motive, then why did Ange (through Ep 7 and 8) think she was trying to protect her? Also, wasn't the message of a lot of Ryu's games something about how all these fights over money were silly, Rosa realising she should have just fled the bomb, and Lamba saying money is hollow compared to loosing a family. Maybe what they are trying to say is through some foolish action of Kyrie and Rudolf, almost everyone died because they were all fighting over the money...



As a final note, from Memoirs of Lamba we know she made Beato a witch after she met Takano, but also she stated she trapped Bern with a gameboard she had borrowed from Beato. This is either poor planning on Ryu's part, or we can work out the exact timing of the window in which that could occur.

[jjblue1]

It is raining, all she needs to do is be off balance to slip.

I'm not saying she couldn't cause her to lose balance, just that I don't believe Maria lead Rosa out with the purpose to kill her.
If you go and say it was an incident I can believe it, but if it was a planned murder then no, I don't really believe it.

Yet "Truth of a sort" Witch-Hunter Sensai.

I know but this doesn't really help guessing what's truly true in it as it apparently isn't the solution of what had happened in Prime.

The message I got from those later games is just because the family conference was a stressful time, and this time they were all in need of money, and MAYBE they acted selfishly or foolishly at some point, doesn't mean they were 100% bad.

Yes but apparently in Our confession the idea was to depict them as 'bad', which might have clashed with having Battler as narrator as he doesn't seem to believe they were bad.
So we've Battler describing them as nice and then we see them act as definitely not nice people. Either Battler was... well completely wrong in his judgement or this was the result of placing together 2 different opinions.

... I'm not sure I'm explaining this clearly...

My problem with this was always how they got Jessica to play along. This wasn't a game for Battler, this wasn't to show up some bratty detective, this was a horrible prank to convince her mother she had died, to make her reveal a secret Jessica didn't know. It is a bit sus....

Well, we don't know what Jessica was told or who she was thinking to prank. Actually it's possible she played death in front of Battler... or maybe not even that. Jessica and Co were instructed to leave the room and go in... let's call it place X, which can be anywhere people didn't search them with Rosa then the adults staged the whole thing. Erika didn't check the corpses so we don't even know if they were still under the covers when she got in or where replaced with pillows just in case.

Jessica wouldn't even know Battler and Co are saying to her mother they saw her dead.

If it didn't, would this board still be active at all after the series had ended?
Darn Ryu nailed that one on the head.

Who knows? Some fandoms go on for years after the series ended, some others die with it. Surely though we would be theorizing a lot less.

I am sure Genji could have arranged it as needs be. He clearly wanted her to do it before Kinzo died, but as she was brought in before the epitaph, I guess he didn't always have that feeling.

Well, considering apparently Yasu managed to solve the epitaph short before Kinzo were to die Genji either miscalculated how serious Kinzo's conditions were or wasn't that desperate to have her solve the epitaph.

But I'm not that fond of Genji. It's true he said he wanted to protect Yasu from becoming Kinzo's new lover interest but basically let her grow as a orphan and as a servant in a home that should have been her own as well.
Yasu longs quite a lot for acceptance and love and Genji's solution didn't provide her those.
I would have preferred if he had adopted her or have her adopted by someone else (Kumasawa, Nanjo, someone else) so that she would have a family and might grow up like a normal kid.
Even Natsuhi said that she was too young to work yet, as she was hired, she had to work.

The problem is she didn't seem to have much knowledge of it during the games. Either she was that desperate to keep Kinzo's death a secret (for some reason Ryu said it is what allowed the murders of the first game to go on didn't he?)

I don't remember Ryukishi saying this but it can be my memory is failing me.
No one shows knowledge about Shannon and Kanon being the same person... the issue is addressed only in Chiru and in a veiled manner.

Natsuhi however is a careful planner and a person who tends to control everything that happens in her house. It's hard to picture her missing that Kanon's origins are suspicious... plus again there's the issue of Kanon having to disappear when Shannon is around... and the problem of their working schedules.

I am pretty sure timeline wise, Kannon was aroung for some point before Kinzo died.

It can't be proved if Kanon was really around or it was a fantasy like Natsuhi drinking tea with Beato.
It was said Yasu created it prior to Kinzo's death but we've no info on when he took a solid body.

Note that in the beginning it was Shannon that was Yasu's imaginary friend but to the outside world they were one and the same. There weren't Shannon and Yasu, just a person with the blessed name of Shannon and the nick of Yasu.

For Kanon in the beginning it can have been the same. He was just Yasu/Shannon immaginary friend, the same as Gaap.
Then Shannon got the chance to give him a more real existence and caught it.

Hence why I usually stress the latter one. Though I wouldn't say there were NO hints. I mean, wouldn't it be a nice troll move if after her long journey, the diary had the same message that Eva left her with which caused her to head up to the roof in the first place?

Not likely, but you could say it was hinted at.

Technically it's implied that Ange should have gone on the roof after she read the diary, not just after she talked with Eva. Though as Ep 4 completely skipped the existence of the diary I guess one can have the feeling she went there after talking with Eva.

I guess that depends on A if you think the obsessional love of a broken person is weak (broken as in, life of loneliness and rejection followed by six years of torture and living with self hatred because it is probably her body's inability to love that always gets in her way)

I don't think it's weak I think that if a person is willing to kill for this reason she had fallen into madness. Yasu will gain nothing from killing all those people. It won't give her a body capable to love, it won't give her a chance for a happy life with Battler.
When Kirye says she wanted to kill Asumu is because in that way she hoped to get Rudolf. In short from killing someone she was hoping for a possible gain.

She hinted she was still a bit out of it at that time due to her grief but her murdering plan has a logic. Yasu hasn't.

As soon as she kills someone she buys a ticket for the jail.
Her actions cause pain and fear that not everyone deserve and yet she administer them equally.

Going back to 10 little indians the murderer killed first the ones that deserves as little pain as possible so that they wouldn't have to deal with the fear their situation created and then the complete bastards.

In Umineko this isn't done.
Maria lives till the last twilight or dies at the second.
Same for Jessica.
Gohda died in different twilights as well.

As Battler figured out the culprit can't hate them all equally yet in her games Yasu deals with everyone (apart from Battler) equally comparing Natsuhi's sin (trying to kill her) to Jessica and Maria... whatever they did wrong.

If this happened in real life as well it's maddness and that's unsatisfing as far as I'm involved.

And if you really believe that Yasu didn't have a strong enough motive, then why did Ange (through Ep 7 and 8) think she was trying to protect her?

Hum... Yasu wasn't protecting Ange, she was sending a message to 'someone' in hope that someone would find the solution to her heart and understand her.
It was Eva who was trying to protect her.

Beatro tries to 'protect' Ange in Ep 8 but Ep 8 likely is just Ange's fantasy of some sort and anyway Beato was doing it due to Battler's request.

If Yasu became Ikuko and she did something to protect Ange it might be due to the fact she cared about Toya


As a final note, from Memoirs of Lamba we know she made Beato a witch after she met Takano, but also she stated she trapped Bern with a gameboard she had borrowed from Beato. This is either poor planning on Ryu's part, or we can work out the exact timing of the window in which that could occur.

I need to re-read that tip but didn't she mean she is trapping Bern in Beato's gameboard due to the game Beato is having with Battler?

Though I've read that tip quite a bit ago so I might remember wrong...

[Wanderer]

I guess that depends on A if you think the obsessional love of a broken person is weak (broken as in, life of loneliness and rejection followed by six years of torture and living with self hatred because it is probably her body's inability to love that always gets in her way)

I'd like to point out one of my favorite arguments for an innocent murder game. It's the epitaph:

The Witch will praise the wise, and should bestow four treasures.
One shall be, all the gold from the Golden Land.
One shall be, the resurrection of the souls of all the dead.
One shall be, even the resurrection of the lost love.
One shall be, to put the Witch to sleep for all time.

"all the gold from the Golden Land" is pretty obvious: At the end of the game, Yasu is to give away the hidden stash of gold.

"the resurrection of the souls of all the dead" is a 'spell' that in real world terms can only be achieved if the deaths were fake in the first place.

"the resurrection of the lost love" is the only part that Yasu can't control. This is the part she hopes to 'magically' come true.

"to put the Witch to sleep for all time" wraps it up. Yasu will reveal everything and retire from her role as Beatrice.

[GuestSpeaker]

True, but she never wrote the epitaph. Plus she has nothing to gain from its solving.

[Drifloon]

If you want more evidence for a fake murder game...

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/2426/uminekoe1evidence.png

And how did you get around the truth that only Jessica and Nanjo where in the room? the doorway and still point blank? Or the crime of killing Battler being the one Beato referred to in her red truth?

It was shown in the fantasy scene. Someone knocked on the door, Nanjo opened it, the killer (whoever it was) shot him at point-blank. Easy.

I'm not sure what your last sentence is talking about.

[GuestSpeaker]

I need to re-read that tip but didn't she mean she is trapping Bern in Beato's gameboard due to the game Beato is having with Battler?

Though I've read that tip quite a bit ago so I might remember wrong...

It was in a tea party, not a TIP I think. Or maybe a metaworld conversation.

Beatro tries to 'protect' Ange in Ep 8 but Ep 8 likely is just Ange's fantasy of some sort and anyway Beato was doing it due to Battler's request.

Hmm, that seems like a brush-off right there.


Maria lives till the last twilight or dies at the second.

That is because she doesn't want to kill her, and I think usually someone else does.

I don't remember Ryukishi saying this but it can be my memory is failing me.

I thought it was said somewhere in a game, but then again, may have been on here...

just that I don't believe Maria lead Rosa out with the purpose to kill her.

Oh I just meant I could have seen her having a moment of anger and pushing her mother. No malicious aforethought, just a lot of screaming afterward.

[Kealym]

THAT was the scene I was thinking of, I knew I read it somewhere. So I guess no-one found another solution?
Just reread the scene in question, I think I have a better understanding of it now.
In this scene, Gaap questions Dlanor about the Guesthouse seals, and lands on the windows in the next room over (Shannon / Kuma / Nanjo / George / Yoshi) being unverified, and thus usable to escape. Dlanor, like a true troll boss, seals that very ARGUMENT on some extremely bullshitty grounds. More like "because Ryukishi wanted to add drama", really.

Cut to Meta. Ange goes "WTF, man?", and Featherine goes "Yeah, I get totally stuck on how to solve this." Ange laments that Dlanor has sealed their final move for the party bearing the responsibility of explaining things, Featherine goes "Well ... there's ONE more thing that could be done. But that can never be done again, and is part of Beato's heart." She also adds bits like "Battler should be the one to do it", "the curtain will finally lower", and "revealing this trick is the same as killing Beato."

Long story short, I think this move Featherine was referring to wasn't an alternate means of escape, but exactly what we saw Beato do - use extremely questionable reds and shift the burden of proof back onto the Mystery advocates. If we accept Shkanon as a major part of Beato's heart and puzzle, this particular closed room pretty much places it right out in the open, and is in fact the only puzzle in the entire series that even REQUIRES Shkanon as a solution. As Wanderer already stated, Beato skillfully allowed Erika the assumption that "Kanon escapes the Guesthouse, somehow", because it would've been EXTREMELY dangerous if Erika had focused on the Guesthouse, asking for more specific confirmations.

To reiterate, I'm guessing that when Featherine says it's a move that "can never be used again" (implying that it's indeed been used once already), she's referring to something like, red truths, very likely about Shannon and Kanon, that are perhaps rather arbitrary or subjectively true, as is convenient for the riddle being more difficult. For example, in this instance, it would seem that at least for awhile, Kanon just stops existing anywhere at all, until Shannon makes that ol' leap out a 2nd story window.

Mmm, I'm not sure what prior instance of use she might be referring to though - my first thought was Banquet's First Twilight, where Shannon and Kanon are both declared dead, but it's strongly implied that their physical body is not, so you get a really ... potentially wierd situation with who the hell is actually doing things. These are quick thoughts, though, there may be holes, I dunno.

[goldendust]

Re-reading Ep7, Will said that Claire did not think that anyone would understand her motive hence why Lion was there. So should we not try to understand her motive or rather that her motive was too twisted for other people to understand.



Also in relation to game three, was everyone killed by something other than the bomb at the end? I seem to remember they were. If not the red "Absolutely no factors other than humans participate in this game board (This is in response to any factor such as animals or robots that might have been involved.)" becomes a bit iffy...


Well if the bomb is triggered by a human, doesn't that count as a human factor? The explosives activate by a human flipping a switch is no different then someone pulling a trigger of a gun. The only difference is the effect.

I'd like to point out one of my favorite arguments for an innocent murder game. It's the epitaph:


That is a valid interpretation.

Although I do wonder in terms of the "innocent murder game" theory, how do you interpret in EP6 where Yasuda tells Beatrice that one day she will destroy everything and revive everything as well bring blessing to all of the lovers.

[jjblue1]

Although I do wonder in terms of the "innocent murder game" theory, how do you interpret in EP6 where Yasuda tells Beatrice that one day she will destroy everything and revive everything as well bring blessing to all of the lovers.

My explanation is that's a metaphore that refers to Yasu's love and identity.
Beato will sort of reconstruct Yasu because as of now Yasu is split into who she's supposed to be (Shannon), who she'd like to be (Beato), and who she'd like to have around (Gaap, Ronove, Kanon).
I see it as an 'as of now I can't fulfil my wishes and love but one day I'll manage to be who I wish and have the love story I'll wish'.
She also talks about how only she could see Beato (her true self) but how others might be able to love Beato and therefore see her, so I take this as a way to say that other will also see the real Yasu and love her.

Though I guess this is just my interpretation.

Hmm, that seems like a brush-off right there.

It's not supposed to be.
An interpretation is that the episodes are basically inner fantasies.
Generally EP 1-7 are thought to be Toya's reconstructions/dreams/reinterpretation of what he remembers and write.
EP 8 instead looks more like Ange's fantasy.

In shor the meta battle became a magical representation of the thoughts going on in a certain character head, or if you want a metaphorical representation of them.
So Battler in EP 8 becomes the part of Ange that wants to love and trust her family while Bern represent the most cinical part of her, the one that believes there will be no miracle and that the truth is unpleasant.
The fight between Battler and Bern represent the confusion inside Ange who, in the end, is the only one who can decide who'll prevail and make a choice.
And in the end you see her sort of aknowledging this as she could chose if turn on or off Beato (it's sort of fun to see Ange making Beato disappear).

That is because she doesn't want to kill her, and I think usually someone else does.

If it's Yasu that turns on the bomb she knows she'll kill her in the end and making her live longer can cause her to experience more pain and fear.
Though Maria doesn't seem that scared she suffers when other argues or refuse to believe her.
And in EP 4 it's likely Yasu who killed Maria by poison.

Oh I just meant I could have seen her having a moment of anger and pushing her mother. No malicious aforethought, just a lot of screaming afterward.

If it was an incident we don't really have EvilMaria.
To clarify things: I can't see Maria pushing Rosa on purpose so that she'll fall, stab herself and die. If however Maria pushed her because Rosa was hurting her I'm fine with this interpretation, though I don't like it much as it leaves us with a second culprit to discover and I've already told you why I don't like the multiple culprit theory in the games (in Rokkenjima Prime though things could have gone differently).

[Wanderer]

That is a valid interpretation.

Although I do wonder in terms of the "innocent murder game" theory, how do you interpret in EP6 where Yasuda tells Beatrice that one day she will destroy everything and revive everything as well bring blessing to all of the lovers.

Yasuda in EP6? I don't remember such a scene. Anyway, it sounds just like murder game "kill" and "revive" to me.

Just reread the scene in question, I think I have a better understanding of it now.
In this scene, Gaap questions Dlanor about the Guesthouse seals, and lands on the windows in the next room over (Shannon / Kuma / Nanjo / George / Yoshi) being unverified, and thus usable to escape. Dlanor, like a true troll boss, seals that very ARGUMENT on some extremely bullshitty grounds. More like "because Ryukishi wanted to add drama", really.

Cut to Meta. Ange goes "WTF, man?", and Featherine goes "Yeah, I get totally stuck on how to solve this." Ange laments that Dlanor has sealed their final move for the party bearing the responsibility of explaining things, Featherine goes "Well ... there's ONE more thing that could be done. But that can never be done again, and is part of Beato's heart." She also adds bits like "Battler should be the one to do it", "the curtain will finally lower", and "revealing this trick is the same as killing Beato."

Long story short, I think this move Featherine was referring to wasn't an alternate means of escape, but exactly what we saw Beato do - use extremely questionable reds and shift the burden of proof back onto the Mystery advocates. If we accept Shkanon as a major part of Beato's heart and puzzle, this particular closed room pretty much places it right out in the open, and is in fact the only puzzle in the entire series that even REQUIRES Shkanon as a solution. As Wanderer already stated, Beato skillfully allowed Erika the assumption that "Kanon escapes the Guesthouse, somehow", because it would've been EXTREMELY dangerous if Erika had focused on the Guesthouse, asking for more specific confirmations.

To reiterate, I'm guessing that when Featherine says it's a move that "can never be used again" (implying that it's indeed been used once already), she's referring to something like, red truths, very likely about Shannon and Kanon, that are perhaps rather arbitrary or subjectively true, as is convenient for the riddle being more difficult. For example, in this instance, it would seem that at least for awhile, Kanon just stops existing anywhere at all, until Shannon makes that ol' leap out a 2nd story window.

Mmm, I'm not sure what prior instance of use she might be referring to though - my first thought was Banquet's First Twilight, where Shannon and Kanon are both declared dead, but it's strongly implied that their physical body is not, so you get a really ... potentially wierd situation with who the hell is actually doing things. These are quick thoughts, though, there may be holes, I dunno.

Yeah that's how I thought of it, too, that it was foreshadowing for the move Beatrice did make. Although I never once thought that "never being able to use the move again" implied that it was used before.

I've already told you why I don't like the multiple culprit theory in the games (in Rokkenjima Prime though things could have gone differently).

I think multiple culprits might make sense for Banquet, at least, since Battler and Nanjo were killed by different people.

I still think the scene where Eva shoots Battler is weird, though.

[goldendust]

My explanation is that's a metaphore that refers to Yasu's love and identity.
Beato will sort of reconstruct Yasu because as of now Yasu is split into who she's supposed to be (Shannon), who she'd like to be (Beato), and who she'd like to have around (Gaap, Ronove, Kanon).
I see it as an 'as of now I can't fulfil my wishes and love but one day I'll manage to be who I wish and have the love story I'll wish'.
She also talks about how only she could see Beato (her true self) but how others might be able to love Beato and therefore see her, so I take this as a way to say that other will also see the real Yasu and love her.

Though I guess this is just my interpretation.

You mean that the "destroy" part refers to destroying herself and rebuilding herself as a person?

Although keep in mind that she said "from now on you will be Beatrice" and the whole "one day you will destroy everything and revive everything" as to refer to a vague future.

Yasuda in EP6? I don't remember such a scene. Anyway, it sounds just like murder game "kill" and "revive" to me.


After the lover's duel between Kanon and Shannon in EP6. When chick Beatrice had flashback/memory about "mother" that Beatrice will not be the ghost that play pranks on people but the other master of the island that will wait for Battler to fulfill his promise.

Most of the flashback starts with "from this day forward" that she will Beatrice who loves Battler and "one day" destroy everything and revive everything but also when that happens all lovers will receive blessings. As well that "mother" will have happiness together with Beatrice.

I personally take that to mean that Beatrice planned to create a catbox where all futures are possible. "Destroy and revive everything" in a certain sense. We seen Kannon and Shannonin EP8 talk about the catbox allowing both of them pursue their own future of happiness.

[jjblue1]

I think multiple culprits might make sense for Banquet, at least, since Battler and Nanjo were killed by different people.

I still think the scene where Eva shoots Battler is weird, though.

Yes, but you aren't asked to figure out how and who killed Battler while we're asked to figure out how and who killed Maria and Rosa.

So since Battler's death is no mystery I have no problem with it

Yes, that scene is very weird. Eva confessed to be the culprit... but then if she wanted to kill Rosa her best chance was when they were in the gold room. She could have shoot her while she was looking at the gold and hid the body there. No one would have found it or seen her doing so.

Going back, risking that Rosa would tattle out the discovery, catching the chance when Rosa leaves with Maria and that requires either tricking Hideyoshi or doing it with Hideyoshi's help, killing Rosa in front of Maria then strangling Maria all while risking to be spotted is... well stupid if compared to the option of killing her previously.

Then there are the murders of Hideyoshi and George, whom we're lead to believe she wouldn't have killed because we're told she loved them... though we know Eva can fake the pain very well as she faked it in EP 5.

However again, if Eva is the culprit for most of the murders EP 3 would take away the attention from Yasu making the point of catching the message moot...

In short it can be a plot for a mystery but it wouldn't serve the purpose of delivering Yasu's message very well.

You mean that the "destroy" part refers to destroying herself and rebuilding herself as a person?

Although keep in mind that she said "from now on you will be Beatrice" and the whole "one day you will destroy everything and revive everything" as to refer to a vague future.

I think with that she forced part of herself to stay in hiding.
In fact Beato isn't anymore a prank maker but the the master of this island at night.
So Shannon existed by day and Beato by night... or better Shannon existed in the open and Beato was the hidden layer.
And yes, there's a reference to the future as she seems to sort of hope that Beato too will be aknowledged and loved.
In itself it's a sad thing, it's like saying I'll live a life pretending to be this and that but I hope in my future who I really am will be aknowledged, loved and let be free to shape my future existence.

I don't think she planned yet to create a catbox because back then she didn't have access to the gold or the bomb yet so she lacked the way to create the catbox... unless the scene happened much later.

[Kealym]

Going back, risking that Rosa would tattle out the discovery, catching the chance when Rosa leaves with Maria and that requires either tricking Hideyoshi or doing it with Hideyoshi's help, killing Rosa in front of Maria then strangling Maria all while risking to be spotted is... well stupid if compared to the option of killing her previously.
Well, you're assuming Eva has explicit intent to kill some bitches. I, and I think a fair number of people, still put Rosa's death as an accident, even if it was Eva that caused it, then a panic-mode Maria-kill. On the more obtuse route of reasoning, Eva had no certainty, in the gold room, that she'd definitely hit Rosa and not get hit herself, whereas in the later situation Rosa would almost certainly give pause before murdering in front of her child.

And if Eva was completely, totally innocent, Evatrice should've just been able to say so in red. Even when she got a better understanding of the rules, she didn't even bother going back to that Twilight.

Then there are the murders of Hideyoshi and George, whom we're lead to believe she wouldn't have killed because we're told she loved them... though we know Eva can fake the pain very well as she faked it in EP 5.
Yeah, she faked there hilariously well (I mean, she went straight up Jerry Springer on Natsuhi's face. While KNOWING the woman was innocent of what she was being accused of.), but even then she knew George was still alive. I highly doubt she would ever actually hurt them.

However again, if Eva is the culprit for most of the murders EP 3 would take away the attention from Yasu making the point of catching the message moot...

In short it can be a plot for a mystery but it wouldn't serve the purpose of delivering Yasu's message very well.
I strongly disagree ... for starters, a pretty large chunk of Banquet was STILL Shannon and Kanon being all furniture and magical and not-as-dead-as-previously-believed. Secondly, there's still the extremely odd element of the stakes being present on the Banquet corpses. Third, we DO have to contend with the fact that Banquet is probably the first forgery plotted out by Tohya, not Yasu. Fourthly, the deaths Eva was likely to have caused, Rosa/Maria and Kratsuhi, don't really gel with any of the murders Yasu commited.

Fifthly, a key part of Beatrice's infinite nature, and I believe it was said Bern has a bad compatibility with her (i.e the thing where Bern can typically map out an entire labyrinth when given the time, but Beato is a maze with walls that keep moving around) is that she has all 18 human pieces to work with. If anything, the idea of "culprits besides" Yasu was very much downplayed, outside of Banquet. And it also fits with the reoccurring theme of the adults having both good and bad sides and stuff. Besides, Eva didn't murder Nanjo! All the murders commited by Eva were red-herrings to trip the reader up on that one point! Bwahahahaha!

[jjblue1]

Well, you're assuming Eva has explicit intent to kill some bitches. I, and I think a fair number of people, still put Rosa's death as an accident, even if it was Eva that caused it, then a panic-mode Maria-kill. On the more obtuse route of reasoning, Eva had no certainty, in the gold room, that she'd definitely hit Rosa and not get hit herself, whereas in the later situation Rosa would almost certainly give pause before murdering in front of her child.

As an incident is a odd one due to the circumstances presented.
Eva wasn't feeling well and demanded for rest but then, when Rosa was forced to leave due to Maria's insistence she followed her in secret from Hideyoshi or he just covered up for her, then had an argument with Rosa outside instead than just inviting her in her room and incidentally killed her, then strangled Maria.

While she could have explained Rosa's death as a incident strangling Maria evidently rules out that possibility so what? She goes on a murdering rampage that ends up including her husband and son... Or Yasu decides to be bitchy about it and resume the epitaph murder killing at least George (let's assume Hideyoshi was killed by Kirye and Rudolf) and Nanjo.

Somehow this logic feels weak to me.

And if Eva was completely, totally innocent, Evatrice should've just been able to say so in red. Even when she got a better understanding of the rules, she didn't even bother going back to that Twilight.

Well, technically not even Beato used all the red she could have used against Battler... and also EP 3 also aim to lead us to suspect about Eva.

Yeah, she faked there hilariously well (I mean, she went straight up Jerry Springer on Natsuhi's face. While KNOWING the woman was innocent of what she was being accused of.), but even then she knew George was still alive. I highly doubt she would ever actually hurt them.

Same here. Though I found it ironic that Okonogi said that he was sure she couldn't have believed her to kill them due to the pain she showed at their funeral... because she know how to fake pain.

I strongly disagree... for starters, a pretty large chunk of Banquet was STILL Shannon and Kanon being all furniture and magical and not-as-dead-as-previously-believed.

Yes but if they aren't anymore the culprits for all the murders apart for Nanjo's and maybe George her role becomes really small. They don't even need to place the stakes as this could have been done by Eva.

So it becomes: Yasu faked being dead but since Eva had solved the epitaph Yasu did nothing until Eva had killed nearly everyone. At this point she decided that no one would have minded if she were to kill someone and killed Nanjo and George.

And, to be completly honest, I would have liked an EP 3 with Eva as culprit but I couldn't find a solution that would fit with Yasu's message.


Third, we DO have to contend with the fact that Banquet is probably the first forgery plotted out by Tohya, not Yasu.

I've considered this. However, as odd as it is, either Toya's banquet and EP 3 Banquet are different or Ep 3 (and EP 4) must be constructed to serve in order to deliver Beatrice's message.

If not they're mere forgeries.

Fifthly, a key part of Beatrice's infinite nature, and I believe it was said Bern has a bad compatibility with her (i.e the thing where Bern can typically map out an entire labyrinth when given the time, but Beato is a maze with walls that keep moving around) is that she has all 18 human pieces to work with.

I think the problem with the Beato/Bern compatibility is that:
a) there's no a way out. The incident happened, everyone died and in Prime there's no way to prove who did it. In short Bern can't find a solution for Ange to have her family back or for Battler to save his family (which clashed with Higurashi in which they reached a fragment in which tragedy could be avoided).
b) For Beato everything goes. While Takano wanted a certain result and worked to get it following always the same way once Yasu has handed the letter her plan has no real constants, not even the number of kills (in Our confession she interpreted the 'divide the two who're close' as causing Shannon to disappear instead than killing 2 who were close). This generates an infinite amount of possibilities and makes harder for Bern to figure out what she's aiming for and therefore stop her.
Note that Bern figured out the epitaph was a key point to trample on Beato's plan in fact it's the first thing she goes after.

Besides, Eva didn't murder Nanjo! All the murders commited by Eva were red-herrings to trip the reader up on that one point! Bwahahahaha!

This imply a Yasu culprit theory for Nanjo's murder. But then why Yasu would kill Nanjo/Toya would have Yasu kill Nanjo if Toya was going for a Eva culprit theory and Yasu decided to stop her plan because Eva solved the epitaph?

I think it's more likely that the solution to the mysteries is a Yasu culprit theory instead than a Eva & Yasu culprit theory.

[Wanderer]

This imply a Yasu culprit theory for Nanjo's murder. But then why Yasu would kill Nanjo/Toya would have Yasu kill Nanjo if Toya was going for a Eva culprit theory and Yasu decided to stop her plan because Eva solved the epitaph?

I think it's more likely that the solution to the mysteries is a Yasu culprit theory instead than a Eva & Yasu culprit theory.

That's why I find the scene with Eva shooting Battler in the face so strange. I'm still suspicious that the reason we saw that scene was a result of Meta-Battler coming to the conclusion that Eva was the culprit, rather than it being in Banquet's original text.

[GreyZone]

But then who killed Kratsuhi? I doubt Yasu did it... because:


1. The killing method is not typical for Yasu at all... they were strangulated. (After their death Yasu probably put the stakes in... or Eva did it herself.)

2. Eva just "being away to wash hands" sound like the most ridiculous excuse in the whole Umineko series.

3. Will said something about an "obvious culprit being responsible", when solving this crime


bear in mind that the only person Eva has a motive to kill for is Krauss


Oh, and i find it strange, that no one doubts Eva solving the epitaph... maybe one huge fantasy scene?

[unsuspectingvisitor]

Besides, Eva didn't murder Nanjo! All the murders commited by Eva were red-herrings to trip the reader up on that one point! Bwahahahaha!

Apparently, the one who murdered Dr. Nanjo was Eva-Beatrice not Eva. It's similar to how Shannon and Kanon are not guilty when Beatrice killed someone. Well this just gives me a possibility to dodge the red truth so it kinda works.

[jjblue1]

That's why I find the scene with Eva shooting Battler in the face so strange. I'm still suspicious that the reason we saw that scene was a result of Meta-Battler coming to the conclusion that Eva was the culprit, rather than it being in Banquet's original text.

It's undoubtley a weird scene.


But then who killed Kratsuhi? I doubt Yasu did it... because:

1. The killing method is not typical for Yasu at all... they were strangulated. (After their death Yasu probably put the stakes in... or Eva did it herself.)

2. Eva just "being away to wash hands" sound like the most ridiculous excuse in the whole Umineko series.

3. Will said something about an "obvious culprit being responsible", when solving this crime


bear in mind that the only person Eva has a motive to kill for is Krauss


Oh, and i find it strange, that no one doubts Eva solving the epitaph... maybe one huge fantasy scene?


1) If Yasu is responsible for strangling Maria as well then strangulation is among her methods. Note that even chickBeato tried to strangle Natsuhi...
Strangulation wouldn't be fit of Eva either as she's more a kicking woman.
Plus the odd thing was how they both were killed apparently at the same time. Strangling an adult requires time and Krauss knew how to fight. So if you try to strangle one the other would have escaped and called for help or attacked you.

There's probably an extra trick in their death, one that made them unable to defend themselves... or else they were killed in separate moments.

2 + epitaph) a theory for this is that actually Eva didn't solve the epitaph but was promised the solution if she were to do something, likely taking part to the murder game. Note that Battler never checked the corpses of the servants so it's possible the adults knew/believed they were alive and were all playing the game (they might have been already death though and the adults never bothered to check it).
When people started dying for real Eva, who might have done something that could have lead someone to her demise in her own opinion, might have felt guilty.
At the same time if... let's say she was promised/handed the solution of the epitaph through phone (Natsuhi was blackmailed through phone in EP 5) she had no idea who promised it to her. Guilt and paranoia might have caused her to do what she did in the end (or even wish for revenge if she figured out Yasu was 'doing it for Battler/due to Battler').

More than who's the obvious culprit (which can be a reference to Beato and therefore to Yasu as well as to Eva) I'd like to know what's the mutable blade.
Does someone have ideas?

[LyricalAura]

But then who killed Kratsuhi? I doubt Yasu did it... because:


1. The killing method is not typical for Yasu at all... they were strangulated. (After their death Yasu probably put the stakes in... or Eva did it herself.)

2. Eva just "being away to wash hands" sound like the most ridiculous excuse in the whole Umineko series.

3. Will said something about an "obvious culprit being responsible", when solving this crime

"The obvious culprit wields a mutable blade." Translation: "If Eva was the culprit, she would have just shot them like she allegedly shot everyone else. The victims weren't shot. Therefore, the culprit isn't Eva."

Think about what's most sensible for Eva to do. It's easy to sneak up and strangle one person. But how do you sneak up and strangle two people without a fight when they're together and one of them has a gun? You don't. You take your gun and shoot them, and then remind the survivors that two of their rifles already went missing earlier.

Or, you're Yasu and you threaten Krauss and Natsuhi with your bomb. That gives you enough leverage to make them do whatever you want, so you can easily draw them outside, separate them, and strangle them individually.

[Renall]

True, but she never wrote the epitaph. Plus she has nothing to gain from its solving.The epitaph already existed, so she modeled her game to appropriate and follow it. She doesn't need to have written it, just been inspired by it. Whatever Kinzo may have meant by it has no bearing on what Yasu could have chosen to mean by it herself.

On the other hand, how do we actually know Kinzo wrote it?1. The killing method is not typical for Yasu at all... they were strangulated. (After their death Yasu probably put the stakes in... or Eva did it herself.)"Beatrice" commits at least one strangulation murder in Our Confession, so it's not entirely outside the realm of possibility. It's just highly implausible that Krauss and Natsuhi could've been strangled at the same rough time while one of them was armed. This applies as much to Eva - who might be physically capable of doing it more than Yasu could - as to any culprit. Strangling two adults is hard. Strangling two adults who were likely struggling is harder.

Of course it's possible they were not, in fact, struggling at the time they were strangled or that the strangulation isn't the actual way they were killed. Hard to say.

[Wanderer]

1. The killing method is not typical for Yasu at all... they were strangulated. (After their death Yasu probably put the stakes in... or Eva did it herself.)

"Mutable blade" could be what implies that even though the killing method is atypical for the "obvious culprit", it's still within her repertoire.

The epitaph already existed, so she modeled her game to appropriate and follow it. She doesn't need to have written it, just been inspired by it. Whatever Kinzo may have meant by it has no bearing on what Yasu could have chosen to mean by it herself.

Although if she'd solved it before, like in EP7, she would have to be fully aware of the writer's intended interpretation. All the more reason to think that Yasu was only using the murder interpretation as a show for the others rather than as a spell in of itself.

[Renall]

Although if she'd solved it before, like in EP7, she would have to be fully aware of the writer's intended interpretation. All the more reason to think that Yasu was only using the murder interpretation as a show for the others rather than as a spell in of itself.It doesn't really matter if she knew Kinzo's intended interpretation or not, as long as she chose to model her own around a particular interpretation that she knew other people would latch on to. Notice how quickly everyone seems to confirm the whole witch ritual angle; it's clearly an idea that has legs.

[jjblue1]

"Mutable blade" could be what implies that even though the killing method is atypical for the "obvious culprit", it's still within her repertoire.

I wonder if those two words in Japanese might mean something more...

Though if we go for a litteral interpretation the culprit has a 'weapon that change shape'.

Now let's assume that the weapon isn't the item technically used to kill but what she used on others to make them obey to her wishes.

So let's assume that while Eva is manipulated by Yasu through the promise of gold and headship, Natsuhi and Krauss are manipulated by Yasu through... let's say blackmail because that's what's used in EP 5.

Before Eva were to go and wash her hands Krauss and Natsuhi tried to have her leave in order to rest. Maybe they were blackmailed into leaving as soon as they would be alone... which meant they needed Eva out of the way.

Unknwon to them Eva was merely instructed to close the door behind them, sort of how Nanjo was probably instructed to close the window from which George escaped.

And now I wonder... can it be that strangulation was post mortem?
Nanjo isn't reliable.

Let's pretend Krauss and Natsuhi were instructed to go there and drink something they found there with the promise it's harmless and that in doing this they would spare Jessica's life. Maybe tea since it's mentione d they used to go there to drink tea.
They drink, it's poison, they die, Yasu fakes strangulation of death bodies, stab them with the stakes and leave.

Nanjo reaches the place and conveniently overlooks the signs of poison for the ones of strangulation.

My problem is there are no hints that they were poisoned... or even given sleeping pills.
However if they weren't out of it, it's hard to think they would have let themselves be strangled.

Unless they were instructed to fake their death by hanging like Kumasawa and Gohda in EP 4... only it's mentioned they were killed by a thin wire and such thing is not suitable for hanging.

Anyone has a better idea?

[GreyZone]

OK... then since 1 person is not enough to kill Kratsuhi, how about they Co-operated and attacked them together?

From the games i had the feeling that most magic scenes are a metaphorical despiction of what really happened, while non-magic scenes, where the detective is not present, were outright LIES.

So how about "Beatrice" and Eva really meeting in the gold room and Eva becoming the new head? Since people are out of character in the forgeries, we can assume that Eva's inner dark side (young eva) became stronger and wanted to fulfil her wish of eliminating Krauss...

And now let's suppose Evatrice is NOT Eva, but "Eva+Yasu" (as Eva-Beatrice even suggests...), with Yasu being the primary force that pulls Eva into it. Ironicly Yasu does not want to follow the epitaph anymore because the gold room was found, but maybe because of Eva's wish to eliminate Krauss she got the confidence to continue. And then when it comes to the killing, Eva is the one who wants to step back, but Yasu talks her into doing it.
Or in other words: They pushed each other into continueing to kill.

Rosa and Maria probably only saw how "shannon" went back to the mansion and doesn't want anyone to know she was alive... so she killed them.

The scene with Rudolph, Kyrie and Hideyoshi makes more sense too. I always wondered how Yasu could always have so much luck in the gun fights. But if Hideyoshi was involved, then it would be 3vs2, which would make it a good bet. But then Hideyoshi got killed too... and Eva was not happy about that. She got mad and decided to kill everyone besides George and then eliminate Yasu, but first they killed Krauss and Natsuhi...

Later Yasu makes Jessica blind and plays "Kanon-ghost"... and kills Nanjo... oh and of course she kills Jessica too. Eva finds George's and Jessica's and "shannon's" corpse... She goes mad and kills Battler and then Yasu... She escapes to Kuwadorian and BOOM. The End.


Sorry if there are mistakes. I haven't read Banquet for more than a year and maybe i got some things mixed up. But i just cannot believe that Eva-Beatrice has absolutly NOTHING to do with Eva.

[RandomAvatarFan]

Notice how quickly everyone seems to confirm the whole witch ritual angle; it's clearly an idea that has legs.
I thought that this was established early on that whoever the culprit was, the murders followed the epitaph for this very reason: To create the illusion that it is a witch carrying out these murders. Is there a reason this came up?

where the detective is not present, were outright LIES.

Your post and theory of Evatrice is interesting, but honestly, I wouldn't go so far and say that statement. I'm going through EP1 again, and even the things people say when they're "trying to get Father out of his room." can be interpreted as metaphors. They may be a lie, but there's a truth within all of it.

I wonder if this actually belongs in the anime thread, but since I ended EP8, I started rereading 1-4 and watching the anime side by side.
I finished the novel up to when Maria gets the umbrella, and watched the first episode, and it's really interesting. A lot of Kinzo's scenes have *no* witnesses whatsoever, with the exception of Nanjo in the beginning. Shannon doesn't even go to the beach with the cousins. Jessica carries the picnic basket down, and George brings it back up.

I wonder if there's a reason for DEEN doing things like this...

[jjblue1]

Later Yasu makes Jessica blind and plays "Kanon-ghost"... and kills Nanjo... oh and of course she kills Jessica too. Eva finds George's and Jessica's and "shannon's" corpse... She goes mad and kills Battler and then Yasu... She escapes to Kuwadorian and BOOM. The End.

No, apparently Eva killed Battler before finding Jessica's corpse. She left after injuring Jessica by mistake, Battler followed her and then she killed him.

Ironically this is what pushes me to think she wasn't the culprit.

Once Jessica loses her sight all she had to do was to shoot Battler, then Nanjo then Jessica. She didn't need to take Battler away if murdering them was her plan.
Something happened that made her decide to murder Battler once she found herself alone with him.

Sorry if there are mistakes. I haven't read Banquet for more than a year and maybe i got some things mixed up. But i just cannot believe that Eva-Beatrice has absolutly NOTHING to do with Eva.

Well, I think Eva agreed to be Yasu's accomplice and only later realized that she helped her to kill everyone. Let's say that Yasu did something similar to what Erika did in EP 6. She pushed Eva to believe the culprit was someone else... let's say Krauss and Natsuhi who are suspicious because they're already hiding Kinzo's status. However, once she finds them death Eva realizes she had been used (similar to how Rosa realizes it in the Ougon game) and that due to her actions the culprit had managed to kill everyone.

Can this be enough to make her snap?

Also, unrelated but it seems Ougon said that Will and Dlanor were characters made up by Shannon to defeat the witches in a tale she told Ange.
If we take this as canon, unless Ange or Shannon told someone else about them, they're the only ones who know about their existence.

(though it might be this is not canon at all...)

[GreyZone]

Wait wait wait...


I am sure George and "Shannon" died in the parlor. Later "ghost-kanon" led blind-Jessica into the parlor too... and killed her.
The place where Eva shot Battler was the parlor too... so shouldn't there be 3 corpses (1 fake) there?
I am sure at least in the anime we could see Jessica's corpse, when Eva shot Battler. I could be wrong though...

[LyricalAura]

I wonder if those two words in Japanese might mean something more...

Though if we go for a litteral interpretation the culprit has a 'weapon that change shape'.

If it helps, the words are:
明白 (obvious, clear, plain, evident, apparent, explicit, overt)
無常 (uncertain, transient, impermanent, mutable)

The original Japanese kind of implies that the two things are in contrast to each other, so I would pick the meanings accordingly.

[LyricalAura]

My problem is there are no hints that they were poisoned... or even given sleeping pills.
However if they weren't out of it, it's hard to think they would have let themselves be strangled.

Actually, I think there was a hint for poisoning, now that you mention it. Rosa had a bottle of sleeping pills for Maria, but she found it unexpectedly empty a little while before she was killed. They were for use on children, but if you used a lot of them, and the victims were already on the verge of crashing to begin with (which Krauss and Natsuhi definitely were) then they would probably do the job nicely. So I think that's a viable method of taking them both out.

The problem after that is how to dispose of the bodies. Yasu has a way to coerce them outside before killing them, but for this theory Eva would need to carry the bodies herself, and she'd have to do them one at a time. There would be a pretty big risk of one of the cousins coming downstairs and finding a corpse.

[jjblue1]

Wait wait wait...


I am sure George and "Shannon" died in the parlor. Later "ghost-kanon" led blind-Jessica into the parlor too... and killed her.
The place where Eva shot Battler was the parlor too... so shouldn't there be 3 corpses (1 fake) there?
I am sure at least in the anime we could see Jessica's corpse, when Eva shot Battler. I could be wrong though...

Eva shoots by mistake Jessica, blinding her eyes then, apparently in shock, she ran away. Battler follows her. Nanjo bandages Jessica then he's killed. Jessica is lead away by Kanon, who closes her in the parlour. Later Battler is shoot by Eva.

It is implied by the tip that Jessica too was killed and that died hugging Kanon.
In the parlour there should be the corpses of Shannon and George also.

I don't know though where Eva ran when she shoot Battler. Someone can remember if it was mentioned somewhere?

[GreyZone]

After she shoot Battler it was "game over". We saw nothing after that.

However later it's shown in the future, that Banquet o.t.g.W. includes her escape to Kuwadorian.

[jjblue1]

After she shoot Battler it was "game over". We saw nothing after that.

However later it's shown in the future, that Banquet o.t.g.W. includes her escape to Kuwadorian.

I know. What I wanted to know was if it was said in which room she shoot Battler. Because I couldn't find if it was the parlour as you suggested or a completely different room.

If it helps, the words are:
明白 (obvious, clear, plain, evident, apparent, explicit, overt)
無常 (uncertain, transient, impermanent, mutable)

The original Japanese kind of implies that the two things are in contrast to each other, so I would pick the meanings accordingly.

Thank you a lot!

And does 'blade' can have some other meaning in Japanese?

Actually, I think there was a hint for poisoning, now that you mention it. Rosa had a bottle of sleeping pills for Maria, but she found it unexpectedly empty a little while before she was killed. They were for use on children, but if you used a lot of them, and the victims were already on the verge of crashing to begin with (which Krauss and Natsuhi definitely were) then they would probably do the job nicely. So I think that's a viable method of taking them both out.

Oh, that's interesting. I've forgotten about the sleeping pills!
So I guess Krauss and Natsuhi were drugged before being killed... this make possible for Yasu to kill them...

The problem after that is how to dispose of the bodies. Yasu has a way to coerce them outside before killing them, but for this theory Eva would need to carry the bodies herself, and she'd have to do them one at a time. There would be a pretty big risk of one of the cousins coming downstairs and finding a corpse.

Yes, I don't really think Eva would do it, and if Rosa was still alive when she found the bottle empty and it was Eva the culprit, this would mean Eva had already decided to kill people before murdering Rosa, which would kill the incident theory.

No, I think Eva and Eva Beatrice served as red herrings for this game... though it's possible maybe they were culprit in Toya's book.

I've always had the feeling Toya's books were similar and yet different from the games otherwise either no one had ever solved them or Ange would have asked why in them the culprit was Shannon and if that was the truth Hachijo found...

Unless Toya's books were unsolvable so no one could figure who was the culprit.

[Renall]

I thought that this was established early on that whoever the culprit was, the murders followed the epitaph for this very reason: To create the illusion that it is a witch carrying out these murders. Is there a reason this came up?The epitaph murders/"murders" are a pattern. It's difficult to recognize a pattern before there's a pattern in place to be recognized. Beatrice has no way to force people to draw from the circumstantial evidence she presents the notion that she'll be killing according to an epitaph pattern, but the survivors seem to catch on remarkably quickly. Unless, of course, she's got a plant in there that she's instructed to raise the idea so that everybody quickly accepts it and begins to behave accordingly.

Actually... interesting line of inquiry: Who is the first person to raise Beatrice's intended interpretation of the epitaph in each episode?

[LyricalAura]

Thank you a lot!

And does 'blade' can have some other meaning in Japanese?

No, that word is unambiguous, but I think you can use it figuratively the same way you can in English.

[RandomAvatarFan]

The epitaph murders/"murders" are a pattern. It's difficult to recognize a pattern before there's a pattern in place to be recognized.
I get it. In the first Episode, no one catches on until after the 5th twilight. Also "epitaph murders" don't really get mentioned outside. Even in EP4, it's difficult to tell where those stakes are supposed to be in, or if the culprit even tried. You're right, and it does seem a bit strange.

Beatrice has no way to force people to draw from the circumstantial evidence she presents the notion that she'll be killing according to an epitaph pattern, but the survivors seem to catch on remarkably quickly. Unless, of course, she's got a plant in there that she's instructed to raise the idea so that everybody quickly accepts it and begins to behave accordingly.
Not quite. I mean the use of magic circles and strange demonic stakes would put anyone into "occult" and there's only a few people people connected to it: Maria, Kinzo, and the witch. Wait a minute... Kinzo and the witch. Whoa, now these people are being gouged in the head, in the chest! No way! It may be able to catch on by around the fourth twilight. However that doesn't mean that people who are actually seeing dead bodies may be able to think that straight.

Which does lead into...
Actually... interesting line of inquiry: Who is the first person to raise Beatrice's intended interpretation of the epitaph in each episode?

Battler in the 1st. I remember that much.

[UsagiTenpura]

I think the means of murder of any given arc is relatively vague.
The stakes are at least in most case decoration put after the death. FT in arc 1 is after-damage (at least according to what we can get from it) and FT in arc 2 couldnt have been the means of murder.

Its also more or less a given that most peoples death arent nearly as spectacular as the found corpses seems to suggest.

On one hand the culprit is trying to make you believe its a witch who did it, sure, but s/he also made it so its possible to understand this is all fiction/a show (hell Battler makes a lot of comments about fiction in arc 1 itself).

Arc 3 is mostly different in that many of the murders arent disguised as such.
For instance Rosa/Maria's death is opposed to making one believe it was a witch: rather the culprit seems to be going for the "perfect crime" idea where it could be arguably considered an accident (tho a messed up one).
The who dunnit doesnt really involve a witch in the possibilities in it.


Actually... interesting line of inquiry: Who is the first person to raise Beatrice's intended interpretation of the epitaph in each episode?
"Uuuuuu it was the _____ of the ____" isnt it?
Tho to be fair I think Kanon and Shannon always make references to Beatrice/Kinzo's game pretty early on too.

[Kealym]

Well, technically not even Beato used all the red she could have used against Battler... and also EP 3 also aim to lead us to suspect about Eva.
Eh, I moreso thought EP3 was to provide Meta-Battler the tools to stop being so hopelessly incompetent, while providing a somewhat obvious culprit who wasn't Yasu (even the intro blurb states it's intended to be easier than EP2). And ... I dunno, regardless of who was "really" in control on Ep 3 as a game, Evatrice just didn't seem to share Beato's concern about Battler winning.

Yes but if they aren't anymore the culprits for all the murders apart for Nanjo's and maybe George her role becomes really small. They don't even need to place the stakes as this could have been done by Eva.
A matter of opinion, I guess. She also has the six First Twilight victims, and MAYBE some hand in Kyrolf/Yoshi, too. I only really accuse Eva of killing 4 people in Banquet, which isn't that many. Well, relatively speaking.

And, to be completly honest, I would have liked an EP 3 with Eva as culprit but I couldn't find a solution that would fit with Yasu's message.
Random thought in addition to what I already said about that - the parallel between Eva and Shannon both having their witch side, which is born of their more juvenile dreams, causes unintentional tragedy, could be what you're looking for, and Banquet also presents the largest roles for the extremely telling characters of Virgilia and Ronove.

I've considered this. However, as odd as it is, either Toya's banquet and EP 3 Banquet are different or Ep 3 (and EP 4) must be constructed to serve in order to deliver Beatrice's message.

If not they're mere forgeries.
See, this is interesting for two reasons. Firstly, Tohya's Banquet and EP3 Banquet almost HAVE to be a bit different, because EP3 Banquet blurs the line between the gameboard and the Meta (which I'm like 99.99% certain aren't in the forgeries) fairly often, like Evatrice's assault on Beato's heart only being stopped by Meta-Battler's timely interruption.

Secondly, Tohya's Banquet IS a mere forgery. It's just a forgery that the readers decided felt really really really similar to the first two, like it had more legitimacy to it, and Hachijou Tohya gained notoriety for seemingly having the same truth at it's core as Yasu's own work.

This imply a Yasu culprit theory for Nanjo's murder. But then why Yasu would kill Nanjo/Toya would have Yasu kill Nanjo if Toya was going for a Eva culprit theory and Yasu decided to stop her plan because Eva solved the epitaph?

I dunno what plan you think Eva had, or what Yasu was going to do to stop it ... honestly, though I don't like brushing things off like this ... alot of the 9th Twilight stuff is fairly inexplicable, from a "rational behavior" standpoint. There's no real reason to kill Nanjo in EP3, Natsuhi in EP1, or Maria in EP4, as far as one can tell. The best I can offer is that "Eva is the culprit!" was an idea, but obviously not the ENTIRE thing EP3 was based on.

Also, I don't see a problem in killing Kratsuhi at the same time. Well, I mean, not literally at the same exact moment, but let's not forget that the adults NEVER slept at any point in Banquet, and as far as I can tell, both Krauss and Natsuhi are, like, 50, or just over that age. If Eva wants to kill them, but not alert the kids with a flurry of gunshots, she only needs to catch them dozing off, or invit Krauss (the armed one) to discuss something in the hall, or just outside, and catch him from behind.

[Azule]

Secondly, Tohya's Banquet IS a mere forgery. It's just a forgery that the readers decided felt really really really similar to the first two, like it had more legitimacy to it, and Hachijou Tohya gained notoriety for seemingly having the same truth at it's core as Yasu's own work.



Sorry, I probably shouldn't jump into a conversation half-way, but aren't we told several times to believe in the author? When the author spent so much time saying that Tohya's forgeries had reached the truth of Yasu's games, doesn't doubting that go against what we've been taught to do from the start? We've been told that they do have the truth in them, and we shouldn't doubt that.

Stuff like not doubting the red, Ange believing in Tohya's forgeries and even the saying "Without love, it cannot be seen" all encourage you to believe in the author of the story and not to doubt what he says at every turn. Hell, that's even what Will and Dlanor's commandments are based around.

[RandomAvatarFan]

Firstly, Tohya's Banquet and EP3 Banquet almost HAVE to be a bit different, because EP3 Banquet blurs the line between the gameboard and the Meta (which I'm like 99.99% certain aren't in the forgeries)

This is something I've wondered about, and I believe Meta is a part of the forgeries; Yasu's message bottles and Tohya's forgeries are exactly as we see them as Episodes. Mostly because even Ange's scenes are discussed as a part of the game and forgeries in the story, and they also talk about "red ink"- Red Truth is really only a Meta thing. With this, it can mean that even Ange's reunion with Tohya in EP8 is only a forgery, or there's still Kakera theory that presides over Author/Prime (or a higher Author). If Beatrice's wish was for Battler to realize her heart, this is something that is mostly present in Meta, so it would have to be present in Yasu's bottles. I'm certain that Yasu's bottles called "Legend" and "Turn" are exactly as we read them, meta and all. This also applies to Tohya's forgeries EP3-6.

[GreyZone]

This is something I've wondered about, and I believe Meta is a part of the forgeries; Yasu's message bottles and Tohya's forgeries are exactly as we see them as Episodes. Mostly because even Ange's scenes are discussed as a part of the game and forgeries in the story, and they also talk about "red ink"- Red Truth is really only a Meta thing. With this, it can mean that even Ange's reunion with Tohya in EP8 is only a forgery, or there's still Kakera theory that presides over Author/Prime (or a higher Author). If Beatrice's wish was for Battler to realize her heart, this is something that is mostly present in Meta, so it would have to be present in Yasu's bottles. I'm certain that Yasu's bottles called "Legend" and "Turn" are exactly as we read them, meta and all. This also applies to Tohya's forgeries EP3-6.

It was said that Banquet includes Eva's escape to Kuwadorian, but we never saw that. So either the authors are stupid for such a plothole, or your theory is wrong.

[Wanderer]

Not quite. I mean the use of magic circles and strange demonic stakes would put anyone into "occult"

Also, all of Beatrice's first letters of EPs 1, 2, & 3 draw attention to the epitaph as the centerpiece of her "game", so when killings start it's pretty natural for people to see a connection between the epitaph and the murders even without a plant there to guide them.

[Renall]

This is something I've wondered about, and I believe Meta is a part of the forgeries; Yasu's message bottles and Tohya's forgeries are exactly as we see them as Episodes. Mostly because even Ange's scenes are discussed as a part of the game and forgeries in the story, and they also talk about "red ink"- Red Truth is really only a Meta thing. With this, it can mean that even Ange's reunion with Tohya in EP8 is only a forgery, or there's still Kakera theory that presides over Author/Prime (or a higher Author). If Beatrice's wish was for Battler to realize her heart, this is something that is mostly present in Meta, so it would have to be present in Yasu's bottles. I'm certain that Yasu's bottles called "Legend" and "Turn" are exactly as we read them, meta and all. This also applies to Tohya's forgeries EP3-6.There are a number of rather extreme problems with the notion of including meta, however. Big ones. Among them: Why isn't it in Legend?
Why should we believe in a human culprit when the story tells us there exist these meta-beings?
Why doesn't anyone in Ange's 1998 (whether that itself is a forgery or not) make any mention of characters like Bernkastel?
What is the significance of things like the Witch Senate if the meta-narrative exists within the text?
What's the point of the fantasy scenes if Meta-Battler is just going to rip on them within the narrative itself?
Why is there a distinction between the Beatrice on trial in ep5 and Meta-Beatrice?
Why is Turn being "paused" at times?
Why do End and Dawn end their board narratives abruptly? Wouldn't Witch Hunters want to know the rest? For that matter, what exactly are Requiem and Twilight, if their text is exactly as we read it?
How could nobody have figured out the depths of the stories with all that meta-information thrown in their face? Especially the red text, which provides a massive limiting factor on available speculation.
Does the Love Duel exist in the text of Dawn? Does Erika react to it? How the hell would any readers have responded to that sort of inclusion?
How exactly do the forgeries being in chronological order (the meta-narrative necessitates this) jive with the notion that Witch Hunters were writing other forgeries, not just HT? What if somebody writes a spinoff of his forgery after his Alliance, and how would anyone decide which meta-narratives are "correct" as a collective? Are there whole other meta-spinoffs we've never seen? Why aren't they regarded as being as close? If Land was a "lost" narrative, shouldn't there be a gap in the meta-narrative where Land's meta-narrative was meant to go?
Why doesn't Our Confession feature Beatrice brainstorming the meta-narrative? She thinks up both the board and fantasy plot, but nothing about the meta-world shenanigans that will result from it.No doubt there are other issues, I've just forgotten most of them. I wound generally say that, at best, the fantasy narrative is present. At worst, I'd say we're missing huge chunks of most of the original texts. Legend is a major problem for containing no magic elements, yet it's so sparse on meta-elements that it almost seems like it could be very close to an "original" message bottle. If Legend and Turn are the bottle stories - and we don't know that they are, but we're led to believe it - they are very different in presentation.

[LyricalAura]

Why doesn't Our Confession feature Beatrice brainstorming the meta-narrative? She thinks up both the board and fantasy plot, but nothing about the meta-world shenanigans that will result from it.

She does plan out when to have meta-world logic battles and what red truth she'll use. That doesn't mean the meta-narrative is in the forgeries, but the author was clearly anticipating a meta-level interaction with an opponent, even if that was just Ikuko and Tohya arguing with each other in the real world.

[Ikuko]

Has anyone here watched this (http://youtu.be/JHMta4YbjSM)? What do you guys think?

[RandomAvatarFan]

Why isn't it in Legend?
Author theory. I didn't completely deny the existence of the author, just that there's something possibly even above this. The Meta in Turn, and in Tohya's forgeries were meant to be read alongside the bottle of Legend.

Why should we believe in a human culprit when the story tells us there exist these meta-beings?
Good point. I think because that was the point of Yasu's bottles.

Why doesn't anyone in Ange's 1998 (whether that itself is a forgery or not) make any mention of characters like Bernkastel?
Let's reread those Tea Parties ;) Also, if Bernkastel is of a being of a "higher plane", than it doesn't make sense for any of them to mention her.

What is the significance of things like the Witch Senate if the meta-narrative exists within the text?
It's called World Building, giving opponents to Yasu's heart some substance. I seem to remember what Maria likes saying about giving things names when I think about this.

What's the point of the fantasy scenes if Meta-Battler is just going to rip on them within the narrative itself?
See point 2. That's the point.

Why is there a distinction between the Beatrice on trial in ep5 and Meta-Beatrice?
Because Author theory. Beatrice on the gameboard/trial is Natsuhi's illusion, but Meta-Beatrice is Yasu's heart.

Why is Turn being "paused" at times?
You mean the Meta parts and stuff? I feel like I'm repeating the same thing here.

Why do End and Dawn end their board narratives abruptly? Wouldn't Witch Hunters want to know the rest? For that matter, what exactly are Requiem and Twilight, if their text is exactly as we read it?
I'm still working this out. But End and Dawn are Tohya's forgeries. They're making money on it, dramatic effect? Remember who the author is for this. It's Tohya trying to deal with the fragmented memories of Battler, not someone who is merely writing down forgeries for the Witch Hunter's studies. Requiem and Twilight, I'm still not sure, as there is no mention of these ever actually being written. This supports the fact that there may in fact be Kakera stuff happening above the author theory.

How could nobody have figured out the depths of the stories with all that meta-information thrown in their face? Especially the red text, which provides a massive limiting factor on available speculation.
Were you able to discover the answer after Turn? No? Hmm...

Does the Love Duel exist in the text of Dawn? Does Erika react to it? How the hell would any readers have responded to that sort of inclusion?
How did you respond? Maybe you're missing the point? I don't know what Erika has to do with it. She's a fictional character on any level. If the author wants to keep her on a certain level of meta, she will stay there.

How exactly do the forgeries being in chronological order (the meta-narrative necessitates this) jive with the notion that Witch Hunters were writing other forgeries, not just HT? What if somebody writes a spinoff of his forgery after his Alliance, and how would anyone decide which meta-narratives are "correct" as a collective? Are there whole other meta-spinoffs we've never seen? Why aren't they regarded as being as close? If Land was a "lost" narrative, shouldn't there be a gap in the meta-narrative where Land's meta-narrative was meant to go?
This is a good point, one that I haven't completely thought through. How did they decide? Tohya may have started with the first forgeries, possibly even believed it to be another true message bottle text. The serious Witch Hunters turn to him for their studies. But at the same time, remember that these are supposed to be the memories of someone who was actually there (hidden deep inside them somewhere) I'm still stuck on the Land. But... in EP8, we see Beatrice saying that Land was her bottle. Banquet is Tohya's. Tohya picks up the Meta-Narrative where Yasu left off- or where Yasu was thought to have left off. If Land is found, its Meta-Narrative will differ, but it doesn't matter because it was never found, and Banquet was written for the purpose of picking up where Turn left off.
I still don't have an answer for what EP7-8 are. I still like the fact that maybe there's Kakera theory even above it.

Why doesn't Our Confession feature Beatrice brainstorming the meta-narrative? She thinks up both the board and fantasy plot, but nothing about the meta-world shenanigans that will result from it.
I haven't read Our Confession. But is the Beatrice arguing with Battler and creating the game ever said "well, if I make this move, Battler will say..." Oh wait. There's different levels to Meta. If it's just Beatrice setting up the game, then it doesn't matter.

Here is the reason why I think it makes sense for Author Theory to include Meta. (Note: I use females for Yasu for no particular reason.)

Each Episode (at least 1-6) are either Yasu's or Tohya's forgeries. Yasu writes three bottles, in which she "confesses". She wants Battler to understand her heart, so she writes a love story. She writes a story in which she confesses her love to Battler, and he realizes the mistake that he made, and they discuss murder mysteries the same way they used to. The third bottle is never found.

Tohya remembers. He remember what Yasu was trying to tell him. He starts writing the forgeries, continuing on Yasu's story where Turn left off. He remembers Ange, and the pain of guilt he feels when he denies her visiting. Tohya continues Yasu's story, but also the story of Ange trying to come to terms with what happened October. The Meta we see is all a part of the narrative.

I don't quite understand why you're so focused on what the Witch-Hunters see. As far as I'm concerned, the Witch Hunters probably did study other forgeries. If you want me to give an explanation they chose Tohya's because Tohya continues the story where Yasu left off: the heart of the story. But since even that is a part of Tohya's forgeries...

If Legend and Turn are the bottle stories - and we don't know that they are, but we're led to believe it
It is said outright. That's why I started wondering about this in the first place. The only difference in presentation I believe is the lack of sprites and Magical Gohda Chef in the bottles/forgeries.

[UsagiTenpura]

Just wanted to clarify a seemingly common mistake.
"Arc 1 doesn't have meta"
I suggest you reread arc 1, Battler constantly breaks away from the narration and start talking to "us" - he even introduce each character one by one - how isn't that meta?
And how could that be taken outside of the story? (and how does answering this by splitting hair between obvious meta and subtile meta really solve anything?)

There's also simply too many references to fiction.
When you have Kyrie telling you more or less "you should try to solve this story as a love mystery" and you have the memory of Rudolf saying more or less "witches and the such only exists in fiction", I don't think you can really claim that there's no meta in arc 1.

Also...
"Why should we believe in a human culprit when the story tells us there exist these meta-beings?"
Hmmm what about us then? No matter what the forgeries says or doesn't say, Umineko, in the form we read it, has these meta-beings in it.
Does that makes us unable to chase after a human culprit?
Actually this is probably the central point of this : why do you think the people reading the forgeries would react any differently then we do, if the forgeries are exactly the same thing as what we read? Cause I'd put my money on them reacting like us and chasing after a human culprit no matter what. It also is sorta funny that we only know these are forgeries thanks to the Hachijou/Ange scene in arc 6, which makes references to the meta. So you end up having little choice imo but to accept both or to deny both. If I'm to doubt what was said in that scene about the forgeries, I might as well doubt the forgery concept altogether.
Beside, arc 5 and 6 are pretty devoid of content if you remove the meta.

[Wanderer]

How could nobody have figured out the depths of the stories with all that meta-information thrown in their face? Especially the red text, which provides a massive limiting factor on available speculation.

"Kanon is dead."

Such helpful red...
Seriously, the games would be easier without the red.

Has anyone here watched this (http://youtu.be/JHMta4YbjSM)? What do you guys think?

He's smart in a lot of ways, but has too narrow a way of thinking. In particular, he arbitrarily takes a very narrow interpretation of red and bases everything off of it. It's really kind of frustrating to watch him make a flawed assumption from the beginning and build off of it as well as he does, yet stubbornly refuse to reexamine his assumption when the story calls him to.

[Renall]

Just wanted to clarify a seemingly common mistake.
"Arc 1 doesn't have meta"
I suggest you reread arc 1, Battler constantly breaks away from the narration and start talking to "us" - he even introduce each character one by one - how isn't that meta?
And how could that be taken outside of the story? (and how does answering this by splitting hair between obvious meta and subtile meta really solve anything?)

There's also simply too many references to fiction.
When you have Kyrie telling you more or less "you should try to solve this story as a love mystery" and you have the memory of Rudolf saying more or less "witches and the such only exists in fiction", I don't think you can really claim that there's no meta in arc 1.That isn't meta-narrative. That's narration. Battler narrates in-character. Narrators talk to readers. Huck Finn talked to the readers. Chief Bromden dropped hints to the greater structure of One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest. Arthur Dent knew he couldn't die because he wasn't allowed to until the narrative brought him to a place he'd never been yet. Misery is about an author writing a story. None of that is meta-narrative; it is meta-fiction, to be more precise, but those aspects of the narrative are not meta-narrative in the same sense Umineko's meta-world narrative is progressing.

Meta-narrative in the same sense as Umineko is Animal Man talking to Grant Morrison as he's writing Animal Man and this dialogue being reflected within the work. It's Huck Finn acting like Mark Twain's Tom Sawyer was an existing account in his world talking about events that actually happened for Huck (and not being entirely accurate besides, according to Huck). It's the odd-numbered chapters of If on a winter's night a traveler telling you, the reader, what you're doing between reading the even-numbered ones. It's the footnotes in Pale Fire and House of Leaves continuing the narrative and forming an integral part of it when they're supposed to be commentary on an extant story. It's Rozencrantz and Guildenstern expressing awareness that they exist in a play and structuring how they view their own existence around this point.

This stuff may make sense as a finished work (as each individual Umineko episode generally does, and Umineko does on the whole), but if you ask what the deeper baseline work is you either have to conclude there probably isn't one (e.g. House of Leaves, where Johnny doesn't think the Navidson Record Zampano claims to have seen actually existed), or that it's different from what we, the reader, get as a finished product (e.g. if Johnny Truant "existed" and Zampano's script really existed, the experience of Johnny reading and thinking about it probably differs from the text presented to us as the book House of Leaves). While I wouldn't go so far as to say that the text of any of the individual Umineko episodes simply doesn't exist in the R-Prime universe (if it exists itself), I do think the documents we see are those filtered to us by Ryukishi after piling on every possible layer (including meta-fictional criticism) and fictionalizing the lot of them. By necessity, these are not the ones characters on certain layers read or wrote.

Given this, the sole place where this degree of meta-narrative exists in ep1 is the Tea Party. There is no indication anywhere that Tea Parties are part of the "main bodies" of the works presented. There are some instances in which it seems like they probably should be (for example, Battler's investigation in Alliance). It seems entirely too arbitrary. I don't think certain parts are excluded because of their placement in the story, but I do think certain parts are excluded because they're not intended to be part of the story that was read or written, merely part of the entire creative and deliberative process of authors and readers such as Tohya or Ange.

The point is this: The stories are described in abstract in endscrolls and 1998 scenes as tales of mystery and witchy murder. Including the meta-narrative just doesn't seem to jive with the way the stories are apparently viewed in the future. It does, however, jive with the notion that the meta-narrative is about people thinking about a narrative they're involved in elsewhere. By general necessity, they can't also be contained within that narrative. Well, okay, they could be, but I think Umineko would be a very different work if they were.Let's reread those Tea Parties ;) Also, if Bernkastel is of a being of a "higher plane", than it doesn't make sense for any of them to mention her.She's a major antagonist. Nobody is interested in her at all? We talked about her and her influence over the story all the time, but Witch Hunters appear not to care?Because Author theory. Beatrice on the gameboard/trial is Natsuhi's illusion, but Meta-Beatrice is Yasu's heart.You don't think it would confuse everyone reading the story in-universe that there are two (or more) Beatrices, one of them dies, and one of them doesn't? Because if I were reading End as a book in a series as presented to me, I would think the author has completely jumped the rails. The contrast between Alliance and End is far too much given the trajectory of the meta-narrative. The matter is cleared up nicely if the meta-narrative isn't in the original works.

I'm still working this out. But End and Dawn are Tohya's forgeries. They're making money on it, dramatic effect? Remember who the author is for this. It's Tohya trying to deal with the fragmented memories of Battler, not someone who is merely writing down forgeries for the Witch Hunter's studies. Requiem and Twilight, I'm still not sure, as there is no mention of these ever actually being written. This supports the fact that there may in fact be Kakera stuff happening above the author theory.It doesn't really support any facts. We don't know what they are. But that's the point; we don't know if any of these reflect their in-universe pen-to-paper existence. To assume that they do may be missing a point of the story.This is a good point, one that I haven't completely thought through. How did they decide? Tohya may have started with the first forgeries, possibly even believed it to be another true message bottle text. The serious Witch Hunters turn to him for their studies. But at the same time, remember that these are supposed to be the memories of someone who was actually there (hidden deep inside them somewhere) I'm still stuck on the Land. But... in EP8, we see Beatrice saying that Land was her bottle. Banquet is Tohya's. Tohya picks up the Meta-Narrative where Yasu left off- or where Yasu was thought to have left off. If Land is found, its Meta-Narrative will differ, but it doesn't matter because it was never found, and Banquet was written for the purpose of picking up where Turn left off.Except: That assumes nobody else's forgeries could even debatably be close, which puts excessive importance on the HT forgeries that doesn't seem to have any logical reason except "he sorta kinda barely maybe remembered," which in my mind is hardly necessary to write a good forgery or even to get at what Beatrice wanted.
We know literally nothing about other forgeries except that they were written. So we can't even judge them against the HT forgeries because we don't have them at all (as far as we know).
We have no idea where Land would actually fit into a meta-narrative continuity. Nevermind that this doesn't make any sense from the perspective of message bottles being set adrift; the possibility that any one or any number of them could potentially be lost entirely invalidates the notion that they would be written sequentially. Suppose Land did come third, but we lost everything before it? If none of Legend, Turn, or Land have a sequential meta-narrative, they can stand on their own to some extent. If they don't, things become problematic.
Assuming Land can just be lopped off devalues the importance of Beatrice's intended meta-narrative. It's either part of her overall narrative or it isn't. To not care that much that it was lost suggests it didn't contain anything that was that critical, but if a sequential meta-narrative that builds to a specific point exists, how could it not? Now you can still argue Banquet was an adequate replacement, but it's highly incredible to me that things would just happen to work out like that. Of course, I find it incredible that the message bottles would've been set adrift at all, but that's another matter.I haven't read Our Confession. But is the Beatrice arguing with Battler and creating the game ever said "well, if I make this move, Battler will say..." Oh wait. There's different levels to Meta. If it's just Beatrice setting up the game, then it doesn't matter.It matters a lot, because Beatrice in that booklet is being heavily equivocated with the author herself. Meta-Beatrice is the author, not merely a character. The booklet is meant, on a technical level, to show this creative process. If Meta-Beatrice is just a character writing about the creation of other characters, it really doesn't matter.

She also seems to distinguish the content of her game (board narrative + magic narrative) from her interactions with her opponent (red truth selection + dialogue) without actually planning it out (i.e. she thinks of what she'll say to Battler, but she doesn't dictate what he'll say back).

Comparing this to the meta-narrative of Dawn we see similar constructions: Meta-Battler designs a board and fantasy narrative and displays scenes he wishes to display, but while he engages with and relates to Meta-Erika, he doesn't dictate the things she says and does. To say "Yes, but there's another authorial layer above him" misses a lot of what the meta-narrative seems to be about, which is - or at least appears to be - getting inside Tohya's thought process, which is otherwise inaccessible to us. Our Confession is doing essentially the same thing for Beatrice.I don't quite understand why you're so focused on what the Witch-Hunters see. As far as I'm concerned, the Witch Hunters probably did study other forgeries. If you want me to give an explanation they chose Tohya's because Tohya continues the story where Yasu left off: the heart of the story. But since even that is a part of Tohya's forgeries...Again, this makes the implication that no one other than him could possibly write a forgery that gets at the heart of the story. It also makes the assertion outright that the Witch Hunter community even knows what the heart of the story is. Remember, the challenge is to "find the truth," and most Witch Hunters appear to be interested in determining - or merely concluding, according to their own biases and interests - what the true events of Rokkenjima were. That wasn't necessarily what "Beatrice" intended at all, at least with respect to her message to Battler.

It's a false equivalence. As far as we're shown in the stories, the Witch Hunter community is completely barking up the wrong tree. That Tohya's work is famous seems incidental to the fact that he also happens to be closer to the heart of the story, the part only he was ever meant to truly understand anyway. Featherine speaks of the whole notion in almost mystical terms in ep6, and it isn't a very good explanation as to why his work would be considered more authentic than the work of other people.

The meta-narrative, I should point out, is also intensely personal and not really very public in nature. This seems to contrast with how the public at large interprets the story. Painting the meta-narrative as internal self-discovery on Tohya's part just makes more sense generally than the notion that it exists in front of everybody's faces and most of them are just too dumb to notice.It is said outright. That's why I started wondering about this in the first place. The only difference in presentation I believe is the lack of sprites and Magical Gohda Chef in the bottles/forgeries.How sure are you of what's actually contained in the message bottles? Why didn't any version of Ange ever get to just outright read one? Surely the contents are very easy to find; they'd be all over the internet by 1998. We're rather deliberately told only vague things about what the message bottles actually contain, and their content is kept more or less entirely vague. While I do believe Legend and Turn are most likely the stories contained therein, I'm not 100% positive they are exact mirrors to ep1 and ep2, and in general, I'd argue that the response to them suggests they aren't.

[UsagiTenpura]

That isn't meta-narrative.

Who said it was? I reread both my post and your post and we only ever both used "meta" and not meta-narrative. Granted I'm extremely tired so I might have missed it...

The simple point of meta is to make you think beyond the limits of the actual story. Breaking the fourth wall is as meta as you can get. If even you agree that there are elements making references to meta "outside of the meta narrative" then I don't see why this is so weird... I mean it's just like the fantasy scenes...
Fantasy scenes were always there, they only became more obvious.
Meta scenes were always there too, they only became more obvious.
In both case it's because without them becoming so fricking obvious, we never would've gotten the point.

Maria's conversations with Battler in arc 1 are almost exactly the same sort of conversation that meta-Battler and meta-Beato has in arc 2. I've said this in my previous post, I don't see how splitting hair is actually making a point. So can you see how arc 2's meta is only taking things that already existed in arc 1 and making them more obvious, or are you going to continue to split hair and see differences instead of connections between things?

So if "the content of the meta-narrative" already existed for the most part in arc 1, I don't see what'd be weird about keeping the meta in arc 2. It'd be quite the opposite. Arc without meta results in a broken arc.

Beside you haven't dealt with my other points. I'd love to understand why you (or anyone really) can doubt that the meta are in the forgeries but believe in the forgeries existing at all, considering the origin of these informations.

[Renall]

I actually have, you just apparently didn't read them.

Maria talking with Battler is not the same thing as Meta-Battler and Meta-Beatrice interacting. One of these things happens within the context of a narrative which does not suggest actual awareness that a narrative exists (Maria's statements could be read entirely within the extant context of the "board" narrative, though we have no non-board narrative in Legend to speak of). One of them happens outside the context of an existing narrative by characters who not only are aware of the nature of the narrative, but compartmentalize it as something distinct from themselves about which they may interact, discuss, and even treat as sport. That they are characters in a fiction is obvious, because of course Umineko is fiction. That's not the point; the point is that they recognize that there exists a narrative which they are in some fashion responsible for yet not contained within. I think that distinction is clearly meant to be taken as important.

That aside, if the meta is part of the forgeries, then we actually know nothing about the thought processes of the reader, which we were directly told in later episodes we did have. There's really no point in Meta-Ange at all if she exists solely to be an in-fiction character.

I have no idea why you would think they are in the in-universe texts, assuming those texts exist. I grant that the texts might not, but I do not see the rationale behind believing the meta-narrative arc which is otherwise so functionally and thematically distinct from the rest of the narrative is in fact a self-contained part of it. It flies against the obvious rules of construction, the supposed information we have about its origins, and the apparent thematic purposes of the meta-world itself.

[GreyZone]

It doesn't make sense that everything we see is part of what's "released" in Prime, unless you can answer following problems:



Why would the message bottles be signed with "Ushiromya Maria", although the narrator is Battler?
Why does the narration in the future say something about " 'Banquet of the golden Witch' contained Eva's escape to Kuwadorian", although we never got to see that?
Why is the number of murdered people that ANGE states in EP6 higher, than the number of people that we really saw dying in EP5 (or at least 'appeared' to have died)?



Regarding Battler's narrative: Imagine it wasn't there...
The people would not introduce themselves and we would need an omniscient narrator to introduce them all, but since the story is from Battler's perspective (which is already strange because: see No. 1), it's only natural that he also introduces his relatives.
The "Benson Murder Case" from S.S. Van Dine does exactly the same... but it contains no other "Meta Scenes". And besides I think 99% of all other stories with first-person narrators do the same.

But the whole thing with the "Meta" is something that is very... exclusive and atypical for stories in general. I doubt that many stories with a similar narration style exist as (in) Umineko.

[AuraTwilight]

The Meta-Narrative can't exist in the Forgeries because none of the Witch Hunters could figure out Shkanon. C'mon, guys, they're not THAT stupid.

[jjblue1]

Another reason for which it's unlikely that meta narrative could exist in the original test as well as the fantasy scenes is that, if that were to be the case, it would be hard to believe in the messages in the bottles as possible truths of what had happened.
They had been discharged because Eva was still alive (in the messages she was supposed to die in the first twilight) and because the messages presented different versions of how things went... but nobody bothered to mention they contained goat headed guys chasing Rosa and that this would clearly imply whoever wrote them (and they know it was someone older than Maria) was either under drugs orplateally lying... and the same goes for Beato challenging Battler to a mystery game...

[UsagiTenpura]

Well I'm assuming they are because of what I said:
The information about the forgeries existing at all came from Hachijou and Ange's convo in arc 6, and in it they made references to the very meta and also tea party from arc 5.

Beside we know so nothing about the real "prime" reality of that world that I don't see how anyone can be certain of pretty much anything concerning it - and thus the arguments used to consider that it would make sense or not to have x or y information included or removed in the in-game universe's narrative.

For all we know the "forgeries" concept only exists on the meta-level. You can't really seperate arc 3-4-5-6 being considered forgeries with the meta-layer of existence and knowledge anyway.
For arc 1-2 it's a bit different. We don't even have anything telling us that the messages found have anything to do with arc 1-2 within arc 4's future, which is very questionable as being actually "real" to begin with.

There's also like, I really can't think of what arc 5 and especially arc 6 would be without meta. Or even without like Beatrice learning about herself by reading previous stories. For the matter what's the point of having a name like "Dawn of the Golden witch" if you remove the meta? What about, also, the like "Jessica/George/Kanon/Shannon/Beato/Battler fantasy/meta hybrid thing"? Do we have to also remove that?

So it's really a matter of that - the arcs as we know would be incomplete and broken if you remove the meta. At best I guess you could say that what is contained in the meta-narrative was originally part of the actual story (but not in meta-narrative form).

At least to me it's obvious that the "themes" of a given episode couldn't be covered properly by removing the meta. It's not an additional part of the story, it's a basic part of it. Then meta-Ange, Will and even chick Beatrice were given access to the arcs in the same form we got them.

So I think in all honesty the only thing one could say is that "Ange and the other characters seen in that arc 4 future didn't have access to arc 1-2 in the same shape we got them". I can accept that, but I don't see in what it relates to a prime reality of Umineko.

As for the whole reader technique argument, you don't need to even have author theory for that to apply. I don't see how it supports or denies anything. It only basically means that a certain Knox is broken.


The Meta-Narrative can't exist in the Forgeries because none of the Witch Hunters could figure out Shkanon. C'mon, guys, they're not THAT stupid.
Well we know neither if they figured that out or not or if they are that stupid or not. I thought it was obvious that Ryuukishi was doing everything not to directly touch the topic (as in, having a character actually say it directly). The true writer's not going to make a bunch of morons spill out what he ensured no one would say directly.




Why would the message bottles be signed with "Ushiromya Maria", although the narrator is Battler?
Why does the narration in the future say something about " 'Banquet of the golden Witch' contained Eva's escape to Kuwadorian", although we never got to see that?
Why is the number of murdered people that ANGE states in EP6 higher, than the number of people that we really saw dying in EP5 (or at least 'appeared' to have died)?



1- There are various interpretations of it. My favorite one was what Chrono came up with, that this was Beatrice's way of telling us not to accept magic/fantasy. Maria, who did such a thing, couldn't figure it. I'm sure plenty of other ways to interpret this exists that doesn't lead to your specific conclusion.

For 2-3 you got me, I don't remember either information accurately (in fact I don't even know where to look for for 2... mind telling me?). Tho for 3 you have to answer then why did the same ANGE referred to the meta events that occurred within the tea party? Cause if you're right it means that "we" are the ones lacking information (and not the prime people).



Regarding Battler's narrative: Imagine it wasn't there...
The people would not introduce themselves and we would need an omniscient narrator to introduce them all, but since the story is from Battler's perspective (which is already strange because: see No. 1), it's only natural that he also introduces his relatives.
The "Benson Murder Case" from S.S. Van Dine does exactly the same... but it contains no other "Meta Scenes". And besides I think 99% of all other stories with first-person narrators do the same.

But the whole thing with the "Meta" is something that is very... exclusive and atypical for stories in general. I doubt that many stories with a similar narration style exist as (in) Umineko.
What about imagining arcs 2+ without the meta-narratives. Makes about the same level of sense.

Granted, Umineko gave it a specific shape, but meta exists in nearly all stories.
When a minor character ends up becoming a major character due to fandom popularity, it's a meta interaction to the story. You can always guess at such a thing even if it's not part of a given narrative. Ryuukishi just wanted us to guess at that level and since we weren't able to he used meta-narrative in the most direct possible form in order to ensure that we got exactly that. Yes that's special, but so's fantasy scenes.
Don't think what I'm trying to say is working but I'll try it in another way : the only thing that changed after arc 1 is that meta stopped being subtile. However I'm fairly certain that the true meta we were always meant to figure out wasn't anything like the meta we saw - actually I think Ange's future, Hachijou's level and even Featherine's levels were created afterward simply to tell us not to stop at the "current top layer" and go find another one above it. That didn't seem to work, sadly. In my understanding arc 6 demonstrated that process.

[GreyZone]

I think that Legend and Turn are, at least by 'gameboard-content', the message bottles. In EP5 "???" he directs at them and says something like:

"At the end of the first two games it was said, that they were found as message bottles later".

It woud look very strange if this was in the PRIME-forgery of 'End o.t.g.W.'
And it would just sound ridiculous that the stories in the message bottles included that "they were found".



EDIT: found it in the script

`Also, at the end of the 1st game,`@` it was revealed that this tale was passed on to people in the future by that message bottle.`\

`......Someone had written about this crime...this tale.`@

OK, he doesn't say that "they were found", but still he says that these "afterwords" were part of the game, which did not look like that, at least for me. Without this part i would never have considered that Meta-Battler knew about this.

[GreyZone]

1- There are various interpretations of it. My favorite one was what Chrono came up with, that this was Beatrice's way of telling us not to accept magic/fantasy. Maria, who did such a thing, couldn't figure it. I'm sure plenty of other ways to interpret this exists that doesn't lead to your specific conclusion.

Okay, i guess we have to take this into the "coexisting truths list", like with 'Ikuko's identity' matter


For 2-3 you got me, I don't remember either information accurately (in fact I don't even know where to look for for 2... mind telling me?).

I am not sure anymore, but i think it was either EP3 ???TP, or the beginning of EP4. I even saw screenshots of that part not too long ago in this thread.

Tho for 3 you have to answer then why did the same ANGE referred to the meta events that occurred within the tea party? Cause if you're right it means that "we" are the ones lacking information (and not the prime people).

well... i am not sure anymore what your point was. I thought that the theory you and RandomAvatarFan want to establish is: "Everything we see is in the forgeries", in which case "we = Prime readers", or are you exclusively talking about the Meta parts?


EDIT: whoops, sorry for double post.

[RandomAvatarFan]

And it would just sound ridiculous that the stories in the message bottles included that "they were found".
It does seem a bit ridiculous. You find a message bottle and inside it tells a story which ends with "the story being found in a message bottle." It reminds me of a poem by Jack Prelutzky. (http://lovekissezsanqels.tumblr.com/post/326227804/the-only-poem-i-know-by-heart) (This is actually not the way the poem was written, but rather the entire poem was wrapped up into a circle, so once you got to the end of the paragraph, you started back at the beginning)

Some sort of Escher art.

You see, watch the way Meta and Reality/Prime and Fantasy twists and collapses upon itself in EP6 with Ange and Featherine/Hachijou. These are meta characters within their forgery, reading that they are reading a forgery.

RandomAvatarFan want to establish is: "Everything we see is in the forgeries", in which case "we = Prime readers", or are you exclusively talking about the Meta parts?

I was going for the "everything is forgeries." (I really have no answer for EP7 and EP8) Ange's future, meta-narration, is all there in the forgeries. Every mention of the forgeries and bottles in game is a self reference. I do think there is a Prime, and I do think that Prime is hidden somewhere in the forgeries. I do think it is absolutely positively possible to reach the one answer. But I don't think the scenes that people think are Prime are Prime. I don't think any scene truly shows Prime the way it is. Even Ange's future is a catbox at the end of EP8. I believe in the Author Theory, and looking at how the Episodes were written, I think you can see "the forger" within the forgery. This in itself is above the MetaGame, not parallel.

Some characters talk about the forgeries, others don't, and the layers of meta as we see them don't really change. Renall brought up "how would Erika react" but the thing is, she's depicted to be "playing a game with BATTLER", not "reading a forgery" like Ange. Why would *every* character (even "Meta" characters) be aware of this? The Our Confessions shows Beatrice on the layer of the "main Meta" where her battle with Battler takes place. There's no reason for Beatrice to even mention writing, or planning out Battler's moves, because that's not the character speaking.


Ever realize that the logic error in EP6 is a logic error in and of itself? In EP4 we know that if it cannot be true, it cannot be said in red. BATTLER made the game, making sure there were no logic errors. If his move could not be made, he would not have been able to make it to begin with. But Erika and Lambda decide he's in a logic error, that his move could not possibly be made. How could this happen? Everything, even the game with BATTLER and Erika are a part of the game on a higher plane, or even a forgery.

[GreyZone]

GreyZone brought up "how would Erika react"

I think you mistook me for someone else. I don't remember bringing that point up. If you mean something older, then please show me what you mean.


Ever realize that the logic error in EP6 is a logic error in and of itself? In EP4 we know that if it cannot be true, it cannot be said in red. BATTLER made the game, making sure there were no logic errors. If his move could not be made, he would not have been able to make it to begin with. But Erika and Lambda decide he's in a logic error, that his move could not possibly be made. How could this happen? Everything, even the game with BATTLER and Erika are a part of the game on a higher plane, or even a forgery.

If we assume that there is no Meta in the forgieries at all, then this is no problem. It just "doesn't exist". The 1st Episode was still about the forgery itself, but for some reason with Battler as the narrator, although the message bottles are signed with "Ushiromiya Maria", which destroys any credibility, if what we saw and what really was in the message bottle was indentical. However EP5 strongly implied that the content is overall the same, possibly with some changes.

Every next Episode, there is less and less similarity, between what we see in the forgeries and what really are inside them.

OK, i make a CUT here and change the subject a bit, but we can of course continue the discussion about the Meta-scenes meaning.

---

If you clearly think about it, then doesn't it seem strange that escpacially EP1 is so complete "magicless"?
I throw in a new theory now:
"The real message bottles are plain fantasy stories." Seems strange and also unlikely, however the fact, that they are signed with Maria, who has a "magic" point of view, implies that both Legend and Turn only have the fantasy part in them. (Yes, even with Legend having fantasy scenes that we never got to see ourselves)

'What do you think everyone?'

[Wanderer]

Why is the number of murdered people that ANGE states in EP6 higher, than the number of people that we really saw dying in EP5 (or at least 'appeared' to have died)?

She said seven right? Maria, Jessica, George, Rosa, Genji, Krauss, Hideyoshi. Seven.

The Meta-Narrative can't exist in the Forgeries because none of the Witch Hunters could figure out Shkanon. C'mon, guys, they're not THAT stupid.

Before EP 6, does the meta-narrative help us catch onto ShKanon? Kanon is dead wasn't a hint. It was a trick that only existed in meta and was meant to throw us off.

And by EP 8 the goats were denying Kanon's existence.

The information about the forgeries existing at all came from Hachijou and Ange's convo in arc 6, and in it they made references to the very meta and also tea party from arc 5.

This is a good point, but didn't all the references to meta occur when the narrative was in Featherine mode, and all the references to non-meta when in "Hachijou Touya" mode? Doesn't that have some significance?

[Kealym]

My $0.02 on the matter is that I don't see any benifit to the Meta being IN the forgeries. It raises WAY more questions than it answers.


Ever realize that the logic error in EP6 is a logic error in and of itself? In EP4 we know that if it cannot be true, it cannot be said in red. BATTLER made the game, making sure there were no logic errors. If his move could not be made, he would not have been able to make it to begin with. But Erika and Lambda decide he's in a logic error, that his move could not possibly be made. How could this happen? Everything, even the game with BATTLER and Erika are a part of the game on a higher plane, or even a forgery.
It's interesting! The way it seemed to be explained is that yes, as you say, a Logic Error shouldn't really be possible, i.e, if it was said in red, it has to be possible somehow. HOWEVER, the matter is whether or not the witch her/himself (i.e, the author) knows the solution to the riddle they presented. If they don't, their entire presentation becomes sorta illegitimate ... that's why a neutral third party (Lambda) had to be present to verify that the author wasn't just lying about having a possible answer, and Lambda has always been Beato's guardian, so ... yeah. On the real world level, it's a matter of having trust in the author, like Ryukishi says ... however, it would be naive to think that every author deserves to be trusted.


Every next Episode, there is less and less similarity, between what we see in the forgeries and what really are inside them.

Yeah that's something I think we tend to overlook. Regardless of what kind of perspective Legend and Turn were given in, Tohya's first forgery, Banquet, was accepted as "totally legit sounding" despite it being almost IMPOSSIBLE to follow to same format. Maria is offed pretty early, and Battler does almost nothing, yet the readership at large apparently still went "yeah ... sounds about right." :heh:


Before EP 6, does the meta-narrative help us catch onto ShKanon? Kanon is dead wasn't a hint. It was a trick that only existed in meta and was meant to throw us off.

And by EP 8 the goats were denying Kanon's existence.

Well, the goats were also calling Shannon an illusion, so who knows what they think is going on in certain bits of the story. Also, I'd say the Meta-Narrative DOES go a long way to paring you down to at least as far as I got, which was "sometimes Shannon, sometimes Kanon, huuuuge question mark". A notable part of this, IMO, is that Kanon only definitely becomes culpable when we get Lambda's red truths at the very end of Alliance, which otherwise left Legend a big ol' bag of old people simultaneously shooting each other in the face, because why not.

[Walterion]

Has anyone here watched this (http://youtu.be/JHMta4YbjSM)? What do you guys think?

I found this interesting and I'm watching it with breaks in between, cause it's 9 frigging hours long.

[Captain Bluebeard]

Has anyone here watched this (http://youtu.be/JHMta4YbjSM)? What do you guys think?

WOW! A nine hour analysis? Someone doesn't have a life...
Well, I didn't watch the whole thing because I do, but his first argument about the number of people in red reffering to the number of bodies and personalities both disprove the Shkanon theory is ridiculous...

I mean, sure it seems like a mistake on the author's part but rather than simply explaining it as a stupid word-play (which Umineko is full of, by the way), no, it's more logical to suppose it's to deceive all the readers into a fake solution which will not be denied even after the story is over.

Generally, the guy is just assuming his ass off...

[Walterion]

Generally, the guy is just assuming his ass off...

I'd rather watch all of it before I draw the conclution. Just like all the other theories I've read, it's fun to read and listen to it while he points out several things that I missed somewhere down the novel road.

[Wanderer]

I'd rather watch all of it before I draw the conclution. Just like all the other theories I've read, it's fun to read and listen to it while he points out several things that I missed somewhere down the novel road.

I've only watched his first 2 chapters and I completely agree with the captain. Just in the first few minutes the guy arbitrarily called the red text "the highest authority in Umineko".

----------------------------------------------------

Something interesting I just noticed- In EP6:

# [Request: 'The six first twilight victims are located at the places where they were discovered. Natsuhi is in her room, Eva is in the VIP room, Kyrie is in Krauss's study, Rosa and Maria are in the parlor, and you are in the guest room!'] I acknowledge it.
# [Request: 'Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are in the next room over!'] Acknowledged.
# [It has already been shown that Kinzo no longer exists, so please remove him from the word 'everyone'.] I acknowledge that everyone else is in the cousins' room.

Erika herself was never mentioned. Wouldn't that mean that she, too, would technically be included in "everyone else"? Which would mean that either she's actually in the cousins' room at the time, or doesn't exist (at the time).

Or you could suppose that there's an implication that she's not part of "everyone else" because her location is obvious.

[Walterion]

Erika herself was never mentioned. Wouldn't that mean that she, too, would technically be included in "everyone else"? Which would mean that either she's actually in the cousins' room at the time, or doesn't exist (at the time).

Or you could suppose that there's an implication that she's not part of "everyone else" because her location is obvious.

I'm inclined to belive the second one, since it it says something along the lines of ''Erika closed the door, pushing Hideoshi back inside.

She then waited for the sound of the lock on the inside.... and her smiling eyes opened wide''

If she closed the door, and Hideoshi was pushed inside (Non related, but you sure have to be really strong to push such a huge weight inside) by closing it, she must have been on the outside of the room.


It's not a bad theory, at all, but need to be analised and considered. Not all theories are flawless on every point and having new theories brought to the table is okay with me. I will still listen and watch this guy's theory even further.

[UsagiTenpura]

I guess everyone goes by what makes sense to them. Different things makes different sense to different people.

From my pov, when you write a story, any story, you are inclined to base it on your life to a certain level (even subconsciously).
So to me it makes more sense that the "board" level is a creation based on a "prime" reality and not a direct copy paste. That's where Mystery and Fantasy comes into play, as two stories weaved based on the same prime elements. There are differences between fantasy and mystery, but there is a lot more in similar. The two are genre of fictions and thus overall follows the rules of fictions, including that many a thing that sounds ridiculous in the real world can be accepted more easily in fiction, to begin with the serial murders of Rokkenjima and the mega-explosion, tens tons of gold, Kinzo's backstory, etc.
From the start Ryuukishi wanted us (in my understanding) to look beyond the fictions we were given and try to think of it from above. From subtile hints given in arc 1, it became gradually more and more obvious until arc 8, by constantly showing us above layers and bringing foward author theory.

Even the message bottles, I don't think they existed to make us think about anything beside that it was a story. If anything I can say this line of thinking is what led me to think that the culprit doesn't have a real gameboard motive. From a writer's pov, the culprit is more or less nothing but the weapon of the crime (oh how fitting with Shannon/Kanon/piece Beato and the furniture themes!).

It's especially interesting that from a writer's pov, the idea of crimes tend to preceed the backstory of the culprit that leads them to do it. That's why I wasn't either very surprised about about so many backstory information being pretty much impossible to figure out before chiru arcs.

[Judoh]

Something interesting I just noticed- In EP6:

# [Request: 'The six first twilight victims are located at the places where they were discovered. Natsuhi is in her room, Eva is in the VIP room, Kyrie is in Krauss's study, Rosa and Maria are in the parlor, and you are in the guest room!'] I acknowledge it.
# [Request: 'Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are in the next room over!'] Acknowledged.
# [It has already been shown that Kinzo no longer exists, so please remove him from the word 'everyone'.] I acknowledge that everyone else is in the cousins' room.

Erika herself was never mentioned. Wouldn't that mean that she, too, would technically be included in "everyone else"? Which would mean that either she's actually in the cousins' room at the time, or doesn't exist (at the time).

Or you could suppose that there's an implication that she's not part of "everyone else" because her location is obvious.

I remember Erika being discounted from everyone else at some point, because she wouldn't be able to use her seals on the doors if she wasn't. I don't recall where exactly in the text that is though.

[Captain Bluebeard]

I'd rather watch all of it before I draw the conclution. Just like all the other theories I've read, it's fun to read and listen to it while he points out several things that I missed somewhere down the novel road.

I agree, though that guy would make everyone's life much easier if he limited himself to saying the exact same thing one time insted of thirty! And I don't like how bossy he comes off (well, look who's talking:heh: ), but seriously, it's like he says: This is the truth, belive it, if you disagree, you're wrong.

And clearly, skimming through the second part of the video, his Rosa-George theory is utterly ridiculous!


Erika herself was never mentioned. Wouldn't that mean that she, too, would technically be included in "everyone else"? Which would mean that either she's actually in the cousins' room at the time, or doesn't exist (at the time).

Or you could suppose that there's an implication that she's not part of "everyone else" because her location is obvious.

I'd agree with Judoh on this one, it'd be kinda silly if she asked Battler to confirm her own location.


It's especially interesting that from a writer's pov, the idea of crimes tend to preceed the backstory of the culprit that leads them to do it. That's why I wasn't either very surprised about about so many backstory information being pretty much impossible to figure out before chiru arcs.

It wasn't impossible, really. I mean, I had pretty much figured some of the things it showed us in EP7 -though I often told myself, come on, it's not that, it's toooo far-fetched-.

[Walterion]

And clearly, skimming through the second part of the video, his Rosa-George theory is utterly ridiculous!


2 words: Small bombs.

That made it through the cut, and if that did pass through as a valid thing, then anything can go through with no problem at all.

Remember, nobody brought up the first Twilight of the second game ever again after Episode 4, with the exception of Will ''EARTH TO EARTH, ILLUSIONS TO ILLUSIONS'' in episode 7, but I just pay half attention to it cause everyone would give the reason to an unknown guy in a blue raincoat wielding a massive black sword.

[Captain Bluebeard]

2 words: Small bombs.

That made it through the cut, and if that did pass through as a valid thing, then anything can go through with no problem at all.

Remember, nobody brought up the first Twilight of the second game ever again after Episode 4, with the exception of Will ''EARTH TO EARTH, ILLUSIONS TO ILLUSIONS'' in episode 7, but I just pay half attention to it cause everyone would give the reason to an unknown guy in a blue raincoat wielding a massive black sword.

Except, the whole purpose of the scene with the small bombs was for Battler to 'solve' the game with ridiculous but passable theories which Beato didn't bother to counter because she wanted to throw the games away. And to be honest, I think neither Battler really believed that could be it anyway, he just said something that could pass so that he would be released.

Of course, when we're shoved a piece of crap right down our throats we're not going to swallow it, be it from Battler or just a random guy in YouTube.

P.S: Well, paying only half-attention to Willard's "solving", you miss some hints, some of which are total give-aways.

[Renall]

Before EP 6, does the meta-narrative help us catch onto ShKanon? Kanon is dead wasn't a hint. It was a trick that only existed in meta and was meant to throw us off.

And by EP 8 the goats were denying Kanon's existence.The goats have access to information we don't, so you have to consider the possibility that they couldn't find any records of Kanon or Shannon's existence as the people the stories portray them to be, and thus concluded (accurately, perhaps!) that they don't really exist.

That aside, it's possible to reach the idea of either of Kanon/Shannon not really existing through nothing more than the board narratives of ep1-4. Kanon not having a visible corpse would be a big reason, and that's something that will be noticed even if there's no meta-dialogue to call attention to it.Ever realize that the logic error in EP6 is a logic error in and of itself? In EP4 we know that if it cannot be true, it cannot be said in red. BATTLER made the game, making sure there were no logic errors. If his move could not be made, he would not have been able to make it to begin with. But Erika and Lambda decide he's in a logic error, that his move could not possibly be made. How could this happen? Everything, even the game with BATTLER and Erika are a part of the game on a higher plane, or even a forgery.If a solution to a Logic Error exists, there was never a Logic Error in the first place. Battler entered the paradoxical world of a Logic Error state intentionally by refusing to divulge the solution. It's what he intended all along.Something interesting I just noticed- In EP6:

# [Request: 'The six first twilight victims are located at the places where they were discovered. Natsuhi is in her room, Eva is in the VIP room, Kyrie is in Krauss's study, Rosa and Maria are in the parlor, and you are in the guest room!'] I acknowledge it.
# [Request: 'Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are in the next room over!'] Acknowledged.
# [It has already been shown that Kinzo no longer exists, so please remove him from the word 'everyone'.] I acknowledge that everyone else is in the cousins' room.

Erika herself was never mentioned. Wouldn't that mean that she, too, would technically be included in "everyone else"? Which would mean that either she's actually in the cousins' room at the time, or doesn't exist (at the time).

Or you could suppose that there's an implication that she's not part of "everyone else" because her location is obvious.There is an implication that Erika is not including herself in the location check, but ultimately it doesn't matter because at the moment of the check Erika's present location is entirely theoretical since the game essentially collapses to a singularity. It's clear that she meant to exclude herself and Kinzo from "everyone else." Because Kinzo's exclusion is acknowledged, and because Kanon apparently doesn't count as "everyone else" if he's not presently existing at the time (which I think is a crock, but whatever), it's clear that Battler's "everyone else" is not referring to "everyone."

Indeed, I'm surprised no solution has ever been proposed for Dawn that takes Battler quite literally and solves the logic error through some incredible troll logic which posits that Erika cannot verify anything at all regarding the status of Battler's room because she is trapped in the next room over with every other being that exists anywhere in the universe, crammed into a space the size of a tiny bedroom and completely unable to move, see, or breathe.

[Wanderer]

I'd agree with Judoh on this one, it'd be kinda silly if she asked Battler to confirm her own location.

Sure, but on the other hand she was quite specific about similar things during the logic error battle with Beatrice, like "confirm that I am not the rescuer."

Indeed, I'm surprised no solution has ever been proposed for Dawn that takes Battler quite literally and solves the logic error through some incredible troll logic which posits that Erika cannot verify anything at all regarding the status of Battler's room because she is trapped in the next room over with every other being that exists anywhere in the universe, crammed into a space the size of a tiny bedroom and completely unable to move, see, or breathe.

Haha! Indeed!

[LyricalAura]

Indeed, I'm surprised no solution has ever been proposed for Dawn that takes Battler quite literally and solves the logic error through some incredible troll logic which posits that Erika cannot verify anything at all regarding the status of Battler's room because she is trapped in the next room over with every other being that exists anywhere in the universe, crammed into a space the size of a tiny bedroom and completely unable to move, see, or breathe.

I didn't quite manage to trap her in the cousins' room, but see the last several posts of the EP6 thread...

EDIT:
I wonder what the Schwarzchild radius of the cousins' room would be if all living things in existence were trapped inside it? Gravitational collapse would certainly account for Erika's blathering about stopped time.

[Walterion]

EDIT:
I wonder what the Schwarzchild radius of the cousins' room would be if all living things in existence were trapped inside it? Gravitational collapse would certainly account for Erika's blathering about stopped time.

Is she the second comming of Dio Brando?

[jjblue1]

Has anyone here watched this (http://youtu.be/JHMta4YbjSM)? What do you guys think?

I tried to but English isn't my first language and listening to such a long English conversation, while mentally translating it in my head just gives me a headache before I can start mulling in my head the theory discussed in it.

Also, on personal preference I don't really like when such long explanations are made through a video unless visual aid is fundamental.
It's much more comfortable to follow an explanation on paper, where I can skim back and forth.

[Walterion]

Also, on personal preference I don't really like when such long explanations are made through a video unless visual aid is fundamental.
It's much more comfortable to follow an explanation on paper, where I can skim back and forth.

if you want, I can try making a transcript of it, but then you will have to pay me with painkillers or other pain supression meds, cause it's going to be quite a long transcript.

[Wanderer]

Also, on personal preference I don't really like when such long explanations are made through a video unless visual aid is fundamental.
It's much more comfortable to follow an explanation on paper, where I can skim back and forth.

You could ask KnownNoMore himself. He probably has more time on his hands than even those of us wasting our time on this forum do.

EDIT:
I didn't quite manage to trap her in the cousins' room, but see the last several posts of the EP6 thread...

You know, I did always find Erika's redundant stipulation that Kinzo shouldn't be included to be kind of... contrived.

[jjblue1]

if you want, I can try making a transcript of it, but then you will have to pay me with painkillers or other pain supression meds, cause it's going to be quite a long transcript.

Thanks but it'll be unfair to ask you to transcript all of it.

[Walterion]

Thanks but it'll be unfair to ask you to transcript all of it.

Unfair is the right word to trigger my motivation. I will see if I can start tomorrow with part 1 and keep going from there.

[RandomAvatarFan]

I started watching it, and I'm not liking him... he sounds annoying. He lists "It is false that... It is false that... It is false that..." that feels like he's trying to recreate the Court of Illusions, but I'm already five minutes in, and he hasn't given his alternative theory either. You think the author is wrong, good for you. What do you propose instead?

It is my position that the author, Ryukishi, is purposely deceiving the readers.
I honestly don't think that's quite it. Chiru wasn't really meant to give the one truth that we've argued about too, but it was meant to point us in the right direction, by saying "Why don't you look over here?" and then give some sort of closure for Ange. I really doubt Ryukishi would be deceiving us as greatly as this guy claims, because of his constant rants within the story and interviews saying "Trust the author." Senza amore...

I'll keep skim through it the best I can. Nine hours is a long time for a video game analysis.

[Kealym]

Even the message bottles, I don't think they existed to make us think about anything beside that it was a story. If anything I can say this line of thinking is what led me to think that the culprit doesn't have a real gameboard motive. From a writer's pov, the culprit is more or less nothing but the weapon of the crime (oh how fitting with Shannon/Kanon/piece Beato and the furniture themes!).
But, but ... all that stuff about not frgetting the heart, and both Yasu and Battler disliking heartless tales where the motive isn't very satisfying...

I remember Erika being discounted from everyone else at some point, because she wouldn't be able to use her seals on the doors if she wasn't. I don't recall where exactly in the text that is though.
I think I found it ... it's right after she leaves the room Hideyoshi is in ... she breaks into Meta to immediately confirm locations, and to put it all together, she says "Excluding Kinzo and myself, there are 17 humans, whose locations are as such." Agreeing that her location was just, y'know, obvious. And she has to exist in some way, or we can't have all her shenanigans in the Guest Room later which are confirmed in red. The real snake has always been that other small bit, "If Battler had been told to repeat that Krauss, Rudolf, Kanon, Genji, Godha and Jessica were in the cousin room, he would've done so", 'cause we all know damn well he would NOT have done so.

Also, I remember seeing that vid awhile ago ... I remember thinking he made alot of faulty assumptions ("Rosa kinda sorta LOOKS like Beatrice, right?"), but at least it was sort of interesting at least in it's thoroughness. Also, some time ago, when I thought about who I would most easily ACCEPT as the culprit, it WAS Rosa, so ... hey.

[UsagiTenpura]

Why does the narration in the future say something about " 'Banquet of the golden Witch' contained Eva's escape to Kuwadorian", although we never got to see that
Well I got that answer at least.
Indeed we haven't seen it but it's information that we had access to within arc 3. Arc 3's tea party is set in the future (or was it the ura?) and tells us that much. So that actually suggest that arc 3 forgery includes the TP/Ura.


But, but ... all that stuff about not frgetting the heart, and both Yasu and Battler disliking heartless tales where the motive isn't very satisfying...
Indeed, that's also why I ended up thinking that.
What gameboard motive can be satisfying without any meta? And not be heartless.
There's quite a limited number of motives in the end that leads one to mass murder and they are all things we have all already seen a thousand times. (in fact I personally think as it currently stands Natsuhi culprit as presented in arc 5 is a lot less heartless then Yasu emo mass murdering everyone out of love while she's the one messing up George and Jessica's feelings - and what about the Kyrie culprit from ura arc 7? Lolgold is a joke for a reason).
Drama overload or selfishness overload leading to tragedy. Amazingly unsatisfying.
But through meta you can have an actually satisfying heart, a satisfying motive.

[GreyZone]

Well I got that answer at least.
Indeed we haven't seen it but it's information that we had access to within arc 3. Arc 3's tea party is set in the future (or was it the ura?) and tells us that much. So that actually suggest that arc 3 forgery includes the TP/Ura.

How can a forgery include itself in the story AND include that it becomes popular? Doesn't make sense... and then WHY does it say about itself that it includes something that it does NOT? (Eva's escape to Kuwadorian)



But, but ... all that stuff about not frgetting the heart, and both Yasu and Battler disliking heartless tales where the motive isn't very satisfying...

The "real heart" was something that was directed only toward Battler, something that only he and the one who created it can understand.

[UsagiTenpura]

How can a forgery include itself in the story AND include that it becomes popular? Doesn't make sense...
What are you talking about? It makes sense to us, why shouldn't it make sense to them?
Also, this wouldn't be the first story that does something like that. In fact even Higurashi did something like that...

If you claim it doesn't make sense, you do so based on assumptions you have out of Rokkenjima Prime's reality, which isn't based on anything.
The reasons why it wouldn't make sense are thus assumptions you chose and not actual reasons that it doesn't make sense.

[GreyZone]

OK, I'll give you that, but you still didn't explain why it says about itself something that is just not true. (Eva's escape to Kuwadorian)

[RandomAvatarFan]

I must not have read EP4 carefully... I thought it was something that people would have known from Eva, not something they read from the forgeries.

[GreyZone]

In this very thread i saw a screenshoot confirming my argument...i will look for it later, maybe...

[jjblue1]

Unfair is the right word to trigger my motivation. I will see if I can start tomorrow with part 1 and keep going from there.

In this case thank you so much!

[Kealym]

Indeed, that's also why I ended up thinking that.
What gameboard motive can be satisfying without any meta? And not be heartless.
There's quite a limited number of motives in the end that leads one to mass murder and they are all things we have all already seen a thousand times. (in fact I personally think as it currently stands Natsuhi culprit as presented in arc 5 is a lot less heartless then Yasu emo mass murdering everyone out of love while she's the one messing up George and Jessica's feelings - and what about the Kyrie culprit from ura arc 7? Lolgold is a joke for a reason).
Drama overload or selfishness overload leading to tragedy. Amazingly unsatisfying.
But through meta you can have an actually satisfying heart, a satisfying motive.
Well, I won't go too far out of my way to argue against the interpretation that satisfies you, but I find the idea that the motive was purely Meta as ALSO pretty shoddy, morally speaking. Also, knee-jerk response that neither greed or revenge are inherently unsatisfying motives. Though the only thing EP7 Kyrie needed to complete the trope list was a curly mustache to tweedle and one of the girls tied to some darn train tracks.


The "real heart" was something that was directed only toward Battler, something that only he and the one who created it can understand.
I dunno - Will came pretty much outta nowhere and seemed to pick up on everything despite not caring about it all that much. He just wasn't a jackass about it, like all the anon Goats.

What are you talking about? It makes sense to us, why shouldn't it make sense to them?
Well, it's like ... for us, the ENTIRETY of Umineko is fictional. In whatever Prime is, Eva is a REAL person refusing to comment on a REAL explosion that may or may not kill some people.

I must not have read EP4 carefully... I thought it was something that people would have known from Eva, not something they read from the forgeries.
It may be common knowledge that Eva was found at the Kuwadorian (she sure as heck wasn't found at Guest House), but Tohya's Banquet is stated to be the first notable forgery that includes her escape to it in it's narrative, IIRC. What really kinda confuses me is that in her absolute refusal to say ANYTHING, Eva also refused to call out the first two stories as the silly, silly lies they were?

"How could that EVEN make sense? I'm alive right here, and there's not so much as a scratch on my forehead or stomach. Idiot."
"But maybe you're ... a BODY DOUBLE EVA WITH PLASTIC SURGERY?!"
"... get the hell out of my office."

[RandomAvatarFan]

"How could that EVEN make sense? I'm alive right here, and there's not so much as a scratch on my forehead or stomach. Idiot."

Well if EP1 was Eva playing a murder game...

I still don't know if it answers the "paradox" in EP2. I'm still absolutely disgusted by EP2's first twilight, and no matter how "satisfying" the motive, I still think it's horrible that someone may have actually done that to them...

[jjblue1]

Well if EP1 was Eva playing a murder game...

I still don't know if it answers the "paradox" in EP2. I'm still absolutely disgusted by EP2's first twilight, and no matter how "satisfying" the motive, I still think it's horrible that someone may have actually done that to them...

I've always wondered if 'that' was done for real.
Though Beato challenged him to do it, Battler actually didn't check the bodies.
So if she poisoned them then covered their stomachs with candies and the insides of animals and she tossed some animal intestines on the ground she wouldn't have had the need to cut them open.

At first glance he wouldn't probably recognize the difference between... let's say a pig's intestine and a human one. Actually probably he wouldn't recognize it not even after an attentive exam so the only thing he could check is if the stomach were cut... which he didn't check.

[Drifloon]

It's still a disgusting desecration of the bodies, though, however it was done.

Honestly, I really do kind of think Ryukishi is a pretty sick person when I read stuff like that. I do love his work but he goes way over the top with stuff like that and it's completely unnecessary. Actually, it kind of detracts from it in all honesty - I think people would be more ready to accept the motive if the murders were done in a more reasonable fashion.

On the other hand, it did make for a pretty awesome moment in EP3 when Battler complained to Beatrice about the exact same thing. It kind of felt like the author was criticising himself, teehee. And there weren't actually any particularly gory murders in any of the episodes after that part, so maybe he really was responding to reader criticism.

[jjblue1]

It's still a disgusting desecration of the bodies, though, however it was done.

Honestly, I really do kind of think Ryukishi is a pretty sick person when I read stuff like that. I do love his work but he goes way over the top with stuff like that and it's completely unnecessary. Actually, it kind of detracts from it in all honesty - I think people would be more ready to accept the motive if the murders were done in a more reasonable fashion.

On the other hand, it did make for a pretty awesome moment in EP3 when Battler complained to Beatrice about the exact same thing. It kind of felt like the author was criticising himself, teehee. And there weren't actually any particularly gory murders in any of the episodes after that part, so maybe he really was responding to reader criticism.

Well, theoretically, if Rosa was supposed to believe the first twilight was fake this would work way better than what was done in EP 1. Surely it probably grossed her out but she could believe this was just make up and actually all the siblings were alive and faking being death.

I wonder if Ryukishi merely wrote what he believed his fans wanted to read when he wrote such gory scenes. Higurashi had some pretty ugly deaths as well...

[GreyZone]

The six people were already dead by the time they were discovered!

So they were definitly dead. But of course it doesn't prevent anyone from changing the sceneary after that.

[Drifloon]

Well, yeah, they're dead, but what jjblue is saying is that Rosa could have convinced herself they weren't, and thus still gone along with the fake murder plan despite the victims actually being dead.

Which is almost certainly what happened, honestly.

[jjblue1]

Well, yeah, they're dead, but what jjblue is saying is that Rosa could have convinced herself they weren't, and thus still gone along with the fake murder plan despite the victims actually being dead.

Which is almost certainly what happened, honestly.


Exactly. If we pick EP 4 we know Kumasawa and Gohda were lying about how the first twilight took place... so they could have thought the first twilight didn't happen at all.
In Ep 3 also it's possible the adults believed the servants were faking and that it was all a game.
The only one in which it's really hard to believe it is EP 1 as it seems difficult if not outright impossible to exchange those corpses for people faking their death so who covered up the fact that Shannon wasn't among them should have been aware they weren't involved in a game... unless Shannon gained their complicity through other means (for example they believed her innocent and she suggested them to fake her death saying in this case the true culprit would say something along the line of : 'but I didn't kill Shannon too') but somehow it seems hard to believe.

[goldendust]

Has anyone here watched this (http://youtu.be/JHMta4YbjSM)? What do you guys think?

While I do not agree with him on certain parts, I have to admit that hear a view on the the games without trying to use Shakonnatircie theory is interesting.

Plus 1:47:00 in the first part with the "gollem" theory was pretty funny :heh:

As well that his solution to the logic error and interpretation on the love duel was interesting.

What comes to mind is the whole "cheese slices" riddle on EP6 that while there is an "official answer" but with enough thinking you can come up with a more complicated answer. I do think that the guy in the youtube video is a good example of that. I am surprised that he did not bring that up during his "author tricking us" rant.



It may be common knowledge that Eva was found at the Kuwadorian (she sure as heck wasn't found at Guest House), but Tohya's Banquet is stated to be the first notable forgery that includes her escape to it in it's narrative, IIRC. What really kinda confuses me is that in her absolute refusal to say ANYTHING, Eva also refused to call out the first two stories as the silly, silly lies they were?


A popular notion is that Eva was hiding the truth because she was protecting someone(George/Ange) but couldn't it be that she just didn't want to ever talk about the horrible events to strangers or to her little niece?

The incident ought to be immensely traumatic and her welcome from the incident (life without her family and the constant suspicion) only made things worse. It is not surprising that like most victims who underwent a traumatic event, refuses to talk about it. Especially not to people who she does not really care about.

If she knew that culprit died and any evidence of who the culprit was destroyed on the island due to explosives. What would she gain from revealing the truth and why would people believe her who either were bent on making her the culprit or coming up with crazy ideas about what happened?


It's still a disgusting desecration of the bodies, though, however it was done.

Honestly, I really do kind of think Ryukishi is a pretty sick person when I read stuff like that. I do love his work but he goes way over the top with stuff like that and it's completely unnecessary. Actually, it kind of detracts from it in all honesty - I think people would be more ready to accept the motive if the murders were done in a more reasonable fashion.


I thought it worked pretty well in the fist game. That you get the impression that there is some malicious will that engulfed the story which contrasts the cheerful feeling on the first part of the story. Most of all I found the scenes where Battler contemplates that the murderer is likely in the same room and where "Beatrice" placed the letter in Kinzo's office was pretty daunting.

I do think that when the story focused mainly on mystery rather than horror, that the brutality lessened.

Although I do think the most disturbing aspect of Umineko was in the end of EP4 where Battler is left all alone to wander around. Only to pass the time by examining at the corpses of his relatives. That is a rather nightmarish scenario to imagine.

[RandomAvatarFan]

Well, yeah, they're dead, but what jjblue is saying is that Rosa could have convinced herself they weren't, and thus still gone along with the fake murder plan despite the victims actually being dead.

Which is almost certainly what happened, honestly.

I'm confused about Rosa's role though in the First Twilight Game. I've discussed this on EP2's board, and I figured that the chapel probably wasn't even locked. I have two theories with some evidence, but both theories and evidence conflicts with each other.

Theory 1) Rosa was in on the Murder Game (most probable and accepted theory)

Beatrice appearing to the adults in the chapel would have been Yasu "convincing" the adults to play along.
Rosa's lie about the door being locked would create the closed room.
Rosa plans on going along with the murder game, and may not have even realized the game was still going on.

But something about Rosa grabbing the key seems out of place for someone in a murder show. This brings me to:

Theory 2) Rosa seriously had no clue what was going on.
Theory 2 relies on the way Rosa handled herself with the locked room and Maria's key. Battler just barely saw her take the key from the sealed envelope, and other than a groggy Battler, there were no other witnesses. Rosa did not put on a big show, which I would assume she would have done if she was an accomplice in the game. But, if she had no clue what was going on, and she feels it's an emergency, she would take the key without caring about witnesses.

But if she had no clue, why did she lie about the door being locked in the first place? Answer - Theory 1.
But if she was in on it, why didn't she make sure there were more witnesses/Battler was actually awake when she grabbed the key? Answer- Theory 2.
Well, that's all I was able to figure out.

[Renall]

It's still a disgusting desecration of the bodies, though, however it was done.

Honestly, I really do kind of think Ryukishi is a pretty sick person when I read stuff like that. I do love his work but he goes way over the top with stuff like that and it's completely unnecessary. Actually, it kind of detracts from it in all honesty - I think people would be more ready to accept the motive if the murders were done in a more reasonable fashion.

On the other hand, it did make for a pretty awesome moment in EP3 when Battler complained to Beatrice about the exact same thing. It kind of felt like the author was criticising himself, teehee. And there weren't actually any particularly gory murders in any of the episodes after that part, so maybe he really was responding to reader criticism.He has a certain fascination with it, but I think he moderated himself well enough with it. Yes, there is some pretty gross and nasty stuff in Umineko (and in Higurashi, let's not forget). However, most of the time it's there because it's meant to be unnerving and messed up; the whole point of the ep2 First Twilight is how disgusting and twisted it is, and certainly Battler doesn't just take that in stride. It offends him. It offends us. It's supposed to. Ryukishi isn't trying to entertain us with it so much as scare and upset us, and get us on Battler's side where we go "Whoa, that's not cool Beatrice."

[Kylon99]

But if she was in on it, why didn't she make sure there were more witnesses/Battler was actually awake when she grabbed the key? Answer- Theory 2.
Well, that's all I was able to figure out.

I think it's shown in Our Confessions, Beatrice is able to (in her own fictional stories, that is) convince or threaten the siblings into doing what she wants. So I think the answer from there is that she gave Maria the key and gave Rosa the instructions to run for the key to pretend that the door was closed. And on top of that Genji is in Beatrice's total employ and has full knowledge of the events of the episode, if not every episode.


End of EP2.
".........Excuse me."Genji-san opened the door and bowed..........So Genji-san was the criminal after all, ...or maybe an accomplice?......That theory probably explains most of the tricks...
"Did you come to give me my last rites?"
".........Nothing of the sort. ......I apologize if I am disturbing you."
"...Hey, hey, saying I'm sorry without even telling me what you want is actually pretty creepy. ...What do you want? ......Are you gonna tell me that drinking alcohol is forbidden for minors? I'll just die anyways. ...Please, let me do as I wish, at least in the very end."
"......... Battler-sama, do you love alcohol so much, that you will spend the little time you have left before you die drinking it?"
Those words, pierced me..........That wasn't true.
"...............................It's just that, if I don't drink it, nobody will. ......I don't know the flavor of alcohol at all..."
"......You are just like Master. Indeed, you inherited Master's blood strongly...."
"You mean that Grandfather, the heavy drinker, drank to drown all his cares in alcohol...? That's a first."
".........After some sad incidents, Master's life, ......was completely reduced to atonement."
"...What do you know?"
"............Beatrice's ceremony was completely finished by the eighth twilight. ...I believe that I can now tell you everything."
"Wha-......what did you say...?"
My drunkenness was completely blown away.


So basically, even if Kumasawa and Gouda weren't let in on the plan yet... well... when you think about it, Beatrice has the ability to recruit almost everyone on the island except Battler and maybe George and Jessica.

Actually, I'm probably repeating stuff you guys have figured out by now... I'll have something much more substantial soon. But it's been a matter of sorting through some 75 notes from EP1-2... heh. So.. sorry for the big long interruption that's coming up... 8)

[UsagiTenpura]

Well, I won't go too far out of my way to argue against the interpretation that satisfies you, but I find the idea that the motive was purely Meta as ALSO pretty shoddy, morally speaking. Also, knee-jerk response that neither greed or revenge are inherently unsatisfying motives. Though the only thing EP7 Kyrie needed to complete the trope list was a curly mustache to tweedle and one of the girls tied to some darn train tracks.
Well I'm actually just going by what people have been saying on this very board.
Nearly everytime anyone came up/comes up with a theory of a culprit and/or their why dunnit, what didn't pass was exactly that.
"Seen before, seen people having it harder" etc. It remains true. Even Higurashi had imo characters who had way more messed up lives/suffered a lot more then anyone in Umineko did in comparison, and yet in Umineko's case it's apparently valid reason to do things more messed up then what anyone under the Hinamizawa Syndrome + a worst life story did.

And there are many other stories out there. Going by a pure Mystery why dunnit ends up making Umineko way too melodramatic (as well as making the apology of extreme teen angst). And well just look at the current state where so many people are dissatisfied by the "amoralities" of Ryuukishi.

So based on that I can safely say that "mystery why dunnit isn't satisfying". It'd be for a 300-600 pages mystery novel, but not for a bible sized story such as Umineko.


Well, it's like ... for us, the ENTIRETY of Umineko is fictional. In whatever Prime is, Eva is a REAL person refusing to comment on a REAL explosion that may or may not kill some people.
Well those are assumptions. To me accepting the explosion and accepting that the story is fiction is exactly the same thing. Can't seperate the two, it's like accepting a fantasy scene as being part of prime.

[RandomAvatarFan]

So I think the answer from there is that she gave Maria the key and gave Rosa the instructions to run for the key to pretend that the door was closed.

It still doesn't make sense though, because if it was a show being put on for Battler, wouldn't Rosa had tried to make sure that he was watching. I haven't read it in a while, but I didn't quite get the feeling that it was all an act from that scene. Why didn't she check to make sure there were more witness's and that Battler was actually focused and awake when she was getting the key out?


Well those are assumptions. To me accepting the explosion and accepting that the story is fiction is exactly the same thing. Can't seperate the two, it's like accepting a fantasy scene as being part of prime.

I'm not sure about that though. I think EP6 confirmed it, because the TIPS usually gives the information on how people were found. They usually don't lie about the way they were killed.

[rogerpepitone]

A problem with the greed motive in Episode 7 is that it backfired. All the money on the card is less than one person's share of the gold.

[Kylon99]

It still doesn't make sense though, because if it was a show being put on for Battler, wouldn't Rosa had tried to make sure that he was watching. I haven't read it in a while, but I didn't quite get the feeling that it was all an act from that scene. Why didn't she check to make sure there were more witness's and that Battler was actually focused and awake when she was getting the key out?

Well, the only thing I can think of is that her duty as the key isn't an overriding order. I was thinking that the Key ends up just following Battler around more than actually guiding him every step of the way.

The 'guiding' that the Key does seems to me to just be participating in the tricks, like Natsuhi (whom I say was the one who placed the envelope with the servants) and Rosa, who was told to lie in certain ways (like about Kinzo.) So, it's not direct manipulation of Battler by the Key, but manipulation of the ceremony. Battler is at the centre by default...

[ImperialX]

Has anyone here watched this (http://youtu.be/JHMta4YbjSM)? What do you guys think?

The question I'd like to ask him as well as everyone here is how well we can "play on words" given that the version of Umineko we're playing is an English translation.

Regardless I think he's quite smart in the theories he presents. He just takes the translation too literally. Now if I knew Japanese, I'd be able to determine just how right he is...

[Smeckledorf]

Has anyone here watched this (http://youtu.be/JHMta4YbjSM)? What do you guys think?

He does some pretty nice deductions, his own theory is not by any means bad. However, his denial and so-called proof for Shkanon is downright nonsensical.
Most specifically, how he thought Kanon escaped the room before the windows were taped during the logic error. You can SEE through a window, if he was gone Erika would have noticed, if we go with that guy's literal way.
Anyway, like ImperialX said, the man is entirely too literal.


It still doesn't make sense though, because if it was a show being put on for Battler, wouldn't Rosa had tried to make sure that he was watching. I haven't read it in a while, but I didn't quite get the feeling that it was all an act from that scene. Why didn't she check to make sure there were more witness's and that Battler was actually focused and awake when she was getting the key out?

The show is put on for all of the non-accomplices, not just for Battler. Battler was who the mystery was meant for, so if everyone is just as confused as him then the whole thing will still be a mystery for him, in other words he will get no help.

[ndqanh_vn]

Well I'm actually just going by what people have been saying on this very board.
Nearly everytime anyone came up/comes up with a theory of a culprit and/or their why dunnit, what didn't pass was exactly that.
"Seen before, seen people having it harder" etc. It remains true. Even Higurashi had imo characters who had way more messed up lives/suffered a lot more then anyone in Umineko did in comparison, and yet in Umineko's case it's apparently valid reason to do things more messed up then what anyone under the Hinamizawa Syndrome + a worst life story did.




.


Well, the problem I have with it is not "people having it harder", because different people deals with the same stuff in different ways. Some took it harder than the others. So I am fine with that. The problem is, the logic of the whydunnit is something very hard to follow.

It is not like Higurashi characters are more acceptable because even their life are more messy, they did not do something so messed up as anyone in Umineko. The thing is, their logic is somewhat believable. For example, Keichi in Curse-Killing Arc. His action is a bit over the top, but we could see the logic in his mind. However twisted it is, it is believable that under that circumstances, certain people would behave similarly. And he did not jump down the well straight away, but the story presents us that he gradually lost his sanity. Even if you will not agree with him (you are not supposed to do anyways), you understand his reason, and find it sympathetic at some degree.

Umineko repeated the theme of "love" a lot of time, but the thing is...well, it is too hard to follow the jump in character's inner logic. There're none of them, even Yasu, would make a believable transition to a mass murderer. So even now I tend to think the whole Rockenjima incident is a big tragic accident. It is easier to swallow for me, but it will also raise a lot of question for other readers.




P.S.
Well, by the ways, I just finished 1q84 by Haruki Murakami. The characters did some thing similar to Keichi's action in Curse Killing Arc. But by now I have to say I prefer Ryukishi's execution of Keichi's mental state than Haruki Murakami, a Nobel finalists. It's not related at all to the discussion. Just saying.

[GuestSpeaker]

Just some thoughts from my time away...


1. The reason that the whole "everyone else" red is valid was actually Erika sealing her own fate (in masking tape too). She said "I don't care whether they are alive or dead, just that that is where their body is" or something. Therefore, by her definition Kanon couldn't be included in the other room, because his body was currently at Shannon's location. This is probably why Battler had a bit of an issue, Kanon was not in the room at the time (hence why there were only five people), but Erika was basically creating a logic error herself by her vague definition.

P.s. Battler would have been in infinite amounts of trouble had she just used their names....

2. The crimes still being committed even if Lion exists reek of non-Yasu culprit theory, however since Shannon and Kanon couldn't exist at the same time but Shannon and Lion could, episode 7 is basically crock in that regards anyway.

3. How can Ep 2 contain red truths? If it were truly written by Yasu and she (according to the currently translated manga sections) was dead, there would be no way the truth could be read. Someone knew the answers to all later forgeries, but no-one should have known the answers to the second one for sure.....

4. People had some complaints about motives/killings not following epitaphs in game 5, but Lamba was throwing chess pieces remember, she could do what she wanted without motive, reason or love.

[GuestSpeaker]

Furthermore, in regards to Shannon and Kannon appearing in front the objective Erika in game 5, while I can't remember if she explicitly stated that they were both there, there is a possible explanation for this even if it did occur. That is simply that Lamba was not aware this could not occur. There was no logic error, as she made a game where they both could exist, but the reason Battler was able to usurp her position as GM is because he FULLY understood the game, and realised that Lamba was not fully aware of all facets of Beato's game. It is clear she knew about it by episode 8 (when she basically hinted it to us in Bern's game), however, by then she had become the impartial judge.

Thoughts?

[GreyZone]

3. How can Ep 2 contain red truths? If it were truly written by Yasu and she (according to the currently translated manga sections) was dead, there would be no way the truth could be read. Someone knew the answers to all later forgeries, but no-one should have known the answers to the second one for sure.....

now that is an interesting part. Which chapter/Page is it? (Please no direct link, as the manga was licensed)

[GuestSpeaker]

Oh sorry, what I meant is that the "she" part is referenced in the manga translations. Rather than the ambiguous terms of the VN, Will in the manga scanlation just asks Lion if she is Krauss's daughter, to which she says yes. This may however be refuted in a later section of the manga not yet translated.

[GuestSpeaker]

The part about her death comes from the Beatrice is dead part, but I guess that is flawed logic from the personality death side of things. Also I meant 'red', not 'read' at the end (darn German guy in his 9 hour explanation putting me off)

However, there is still the issue of how Ep 2 can have red truths.

[GreyZone]

No problem for me, since i am in the camp of "Ikuko=Yasu"

But if I had to give an explanation of "Ikuko=RandomStranger", I don't really have one aside that Tohya maybe remembered "parts" of what happened and these parts are what he uses as "red truths". Or maybe he was just subconsciously applying knox? That is just spaculation though.

[GuestSpeaker]

A lot of the red truths given don't really relate to Knox, so it is a little supportive of Ikuko = Yasu. I guess it all depends on how much faith you have in Ryu7 and his ability to construct internal logic in his stories. Probably another big factor is that since without red truths game 2 would have been just as hard to reason as game 1, and if he decided to write that there was only 1 message bottle written by Yasu (so that all others could be forgeries and have red truths) it would really alter the dynamic of what we suspect regarding the message bottles.

[GuestSpeaker]

Furthermore, in the manga of the 4th game, it is stated that no-one in the chain of closed rooms from Twilight 1 of the 3rd game committed suicide. In this a definition game with beatrice killing shannon or something? Or did Shannon play dead twice like a boss?

[GreyZone]

Furthermore, in the manga of the 4th game, it is stated that no-one in the chain of closed rooms from Twilight 1 of the 3rd game committed suicide. In this a definition game with beatrice killing shannon or something? Or did Shannon play dead twice like a boss?

From EP3:

There are five, one for each servant. (Used by Beatrice in Chapter 9: Skirmish. It refers to the master keys in this game.)
Furthermore, all of the doors and windows in the 6 rooms are normal. (The six rooms in this statement refers to the parlor, the chapel, the boiler room, the honored guest room, the waiting room, and the guest room.)
No device exists which can lock them without a key, such as an auto-lock.
6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!
There is no one hiding in the six rooms!
The six people died instantly!
Only the victims are inside the rooms, and no other people exist inside the rooms. (Used by Ronove.)
The six people were not killed by traps (Used by Beatrice.)
None of the six people committed suicide!


From EP4TP:

All five master keys were discovered, each in the pocket of one of the servants! (This is referring to the first twilight of Episode 3.)
The individual keys were found inside envelopes alongside the corpses!
In short, all keys related to the linked closed rooms were locked inside the linked closed rooms!!
The keys cannot be returned from outside the room using the crack of the door, the crack of the window, vents or any place of the sort!!
All of them had wounds resembling gunshot wounds which became fatal!
It is impossible for the murder to have taken place from outside the room!!
I shall say more with the red! When the five other than Kinzo were murdered, the murderer was definitely in the same room!
I already proclaimed in red at the time that there were no suicides!!

[GuestSpeaker]

...So Beatrice killed Shannon and Kanon I guess...

[GreyZone]

yes, however she also did her double play dead move too. Those 2 don't contradict each other after all.

[Renall]

yes, however she also did her double play dead move too. Those 2 don't contradict each other after all.How exactly does killing your own personalities not count as suicide? It renders the word completely meaningless, just like "dead" is meaningless.

It creates this notion that Beatrice is a separate and independent person, which even in the stories she isn't even if she is a separate personality. If you cause Shannon/Kanon to cease existing, Beatrice murdered them; they didn't kill themselves and presumably would not choose to die if they could help it. If Shannon/Kanon voluntarily ceased existing, it's suicide. If their existence can be restored at any time (which appears to be the case per Ryukishi's intended explanation), they're not dead.

For the red not to trip all over itself, we end up having to accept the following things as true: Personalities are persons to satisfy "six people ... are dead."
Personality-Persons can die and "be dead" to satisfy "... are dead."
Personality-Persons can be "murdered" to satisfy "were murdered."
Personality-Persons can murder each other, even if they share the same host.
Personality-Murder is instantaneous to satisfy "The six people died instantly!"
Two personalities of the same host can coexist during a Personality-Murder to satisfy "When the five other than Kinzo were murdered, the murderer was definitely in the same room!"
Murdering one of your own personalities is not suicide, to satisfy "there were no suicides!"
A murdered personality may nor may not be able to return at whim.Immediately I can observe one major contradiction here: Personality-Murder is instantaneous, yet the murderer was in the same room as the victim. Thus, when Shannon and Kanon were killed, "Beatrice" had to coexist with them. Note that this isn't a contradiction itself if they're the same body; obviously the same body will be in the same room. The contradiction is that at least two personalities are active at the same time for this to work, and one must somehow take an affirmative step to "murder" the other.

I don't believe this is actually possible.

First, coexisting personalities is shaky to begin with, but let's accept that it's possible and Beatrice/Shannon/Kanon could be active simultaneously if they wished. Let's also accept that, at least in the story context, they are separate personalities with their own desires and interests. This is necessary because, and this is key, Shannon and Kanon cannot desire death. Not only is it out of character for both of them, but Beatrice cannot "murder" them if they want or agree to "die" by going dormant.

"Murder" by any definition is a willful act against the interest of another person in living, so even if we apply magic personality rules to it, Beatrice cannot murder Shannon and Kanon by a process like "OK, please turn off now." "Alright." That's not murder. It's suicide, or generously... something else that can't even be described with respect to distinct biological entities. Consensual deactivation, if you want to call it that.

This means that Beatrice had to first become active in order to initiate the desire to murder Gohda/Kumasawa/Genji and destroy/deactivate Shannon/Kanon. Then she must both remain active and in control (more on this below) and do... something... to Kanon and Shannon to force them to become inactive in such a manner that it rises to the level of "murder." Shannon and Kanon presumably don't want this, so we're left with tons of unanswered questions: Do Shannon/Kanon know Beatrice is malevolent?
Do Shannon/Kanon know when Beatrice is active or inactive?
Can Shannon/Kanon do anything to resist Beatrice becoming dominant?
Once suppressed by Beatrice, how can Shannon/Kanon return?
How can Beatrice suppress Shannon/Kanon against their wills?
Who is in control during a struggle of multiple active personalities? What happens to the body they share?
How did Shannon/Kanon become active in time to be murdered by Beatrice to set up the First Twilight? If they were active or in control before, they wouldn't allow Beatrice to set up the crime. If they weren't active, it means Beatrice had to render them active solely to kill them for the purposes of the red.As I said above, Beatrice must be "in control." We have no idea how control over the host body works in this scenario. Normally, we've just assumed only one personality exists at a time and that personality controls the body. But per the ep3 reds, this absolutely cannot be true. It must be possible for more than one personality to exist at a time and there must be some governing ability to determine who gains and maintains control and when personalities can or cannot become active or dormant. Philosophically, of course, this suggests the existence of a higher-order regulating agent, which means that all the personality red is irrelevant and essentially does all apply to the same person, making it totally contradictory.

This has further disastrous implications for the Logic Error as it makes no sense why Kanon is temporarily nonexistent if he's permitted to coexist with Shannon while she's "in control," and worse, it amounts to philosophical cheating because there is no distinction whatsoever between "Shannon in control with Kanon active" and "Shannon in control with Kanon dormant." It's the same body with the same governing will, therefore it behaves in exactly the same manner and there is no rational reason why Kanon would ever be either dormant or active at any time. It's FUBAR.

[Drifloon]

Furthermore, in regards to Shannon and Kannon appearing in front the objective Erika in game 5, while I can't remember if she explicitly stated that they were both there, there is a possible explanation for this even if it did occur. That is simply that Lamba was not aware this could not occur. There was no logic error, as she made a game where they both could exist, but the reason Battler was able to usurp her position as GM is because he FULLY understood the game, and realised that Lamba was not fully aware of all facets of Beato's game. It is clear she knew about it by episode 8 (when she basically hinted it to us in Bern's game), however, by then she had become the impartial judge.

Thoughts?

If Lambda didn't know the answer to Beatrice's games, how was she so sure that Battler was wrong in the EP4 ????, and how was she able to give red truths about Beatrice's games in that scenario?

As for Renall's questions, I'll give the answers that I believe are true. Whether these would apply to real-life DID isn't really an issue to me, honestly; it makes for an interesting story, and I think we should allow Ryukishi the artistic license to portray DID a little differently to the real thing.

Do Shannon/Kanon know Beatrice is malevolent?

You should be able to tell this just from reading EP2. Kanon is resentful at Beatrice for allowing them to exist even though they can never achieve true love as long as they are only personalities. Shannon, on the other hand, is grateful that Beatrice allowed her to exist and to love, even though she can't achieve true love...however, when Beatrice starts the ceremony, Shannon becomes less compliant, and rebels against Beatrice, being 'murdered' as a result.

Do Shannon/Kanon know when Beatrice is active or inactive?

I think so, yes. There are a lot of hints that Shannon is able to talk to Kanon inside her head while she is the dominant personality. And there are lots of scenes showing the personalities talking to each other. I would assume that the other two personalities are 'watching' when one is active, and the three can communicate inside Yasu's head at all times.

Can Shannon/Kanon do anything to resist Beatrice becoming dominant?

The scenes where Shannon and Kanon fight against Beatrice (presumably for control of the body) would suggest so.

Once suppressed by Beatrice, how can Shannon/Kanon return?

If something happens that revives the particular emotions inside Yasu that Shannon and Kanon represent, then those personalities can revive. We see that Shannon was momentarily able to revive when she saw George in EP3, though Beatrice quickly suppressed that part of her and killed both George and Shannon. The same with Kanon seeing Jessica in that episode.

How can Beatrice suppress Shannon/Kanon against their wills?

Because the emotions inside Yasu that Beatrice represents have grown stronger than those that Shannon and Kanon represent, 'defeating'/'killing' them. She's finally able to become the dominant personality and defeat Shannon and Kanon when Battler returns to Rokkenjima in 1986 - if he hadn't, she wouldn't have gained the push she needed to beat them.

Who is in control during a struggle of multiple active personalities? What happens to the body they share?

I assume that said struggles take place in seconds, if that. Thought processes are much faster than physical actions, after all. So there isn't really any prolonged period where the body is in a struggle of multiple personalities. This is also why the deaths can be said to be 'instantaneous'.

How did Shannon/Kanon become active in time to be murdered by Beatrice to set up the First Twilight? If they were active or in control before, they wouldn't allow Beatrice to set up the crime. If they weren't active, it means Beatrice had to render them active solely to kill them for the purposes of the red.

They don't need to be 'active' for Beatrice to kill them. She resolved herself to kill the emotions of love that she felt for George and Jessica - the emotions that are personified by Shannon and Kanon - so that she could perform the ceremony without any obstacles. Thus, she put those parts of her to rest - 'put them to sleep', as the fantasy scene puts it - before the ceremony began. That's why she can say at that point that Shannon and Kanon are dead.

[Renall]

Thinking about it, I've come up with pretty much the only possible way the fiction-Beatrice's personality juggling can work and still somewhat conform to the red. This will get a bit lengthy and philosophical, mind you.

FIRST, we must accept a few premises. We accept of course that personalities can work this way. We accept that they have separate personhood because the red tells us they do. We accept that they share a single body. We accept that they may or may not be "active" and that they count as alive while doing so and dead while not doing so. We accept further that they can be "in control" of the body.

SECOND, there can be no overall governing intellect or "true" personality. This is because the actions of a superior governing intellect would inherit the culpability of its subparts, which contradicts red all over the place. Therefore, in a theoretical situation where none of the personalities are active, the body is essentially inert. It has no personality whatsoever and no mind. Needless to say, this is not how brains work. However, as it is a fictional construct, the host body doesn't have a "brain," just a "mind," and that mind happens to be modular and wholly owned by its constituent personalities.

THEREFORE, we can immediately say the following things about Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice in the fictions: They are separate people who can only inhabit a single physical body.
Any one or more of them may be active at one time.
None of them is the "True Yasu." The "True Yasu" does not and cannot exist.THIRD, personalities can and must coexist. This is textually supported by Shannon talking to Kanon, Beatrice talking to Shannon and Kanon, and potentially by Beatrice-as-originally-created talking to Beatrice-the-murderer in ep4. When a personality becomes active, deactivation of other personalities is not instantaneous (although the act of deactivation can be). In other words, until one personality chooses to deactivate all the others, it can cohabitate the body with any or all other personalities as it wishes.

FOURTH, I will note that in Japanese "murder" can simply mean "homicide," something I overlooked in the prior post. Therefore I will detach everything but the actus rea from the act and presume that when Meta-Beatrice asserts that personalities can be "murdered" and cannot "commit suicide" that the following things are what she means: A personality can be deactivated by the will of another personality.
A personality cannot willfully deactivate itself.There are several reasons why I conclude #2. The above situation I described with a mindless body seems absurd on its face. Therefore, I'd argue that as long as the host body is alive, at least one personality is always active. I would also argue that in order to deactivate a personality, some mental capacity must exist to conduct the deactivation. Thus, a personality cannot deactivate itself once it's the only active personality by anything short of destroying the body (which is suicide, and also murder of the other personalities).

It follows from this then that whenever a personality goes inactive, the still-active personality deactivated them. Thus, Shkanontrice is constantly murdering itself, although that's just as a procedural matter and shouldn't be taken to suggest psychopathic disregard among the personalities for each other. After all, they can come back (more on this later).

Indeed, this raises an interesting conundrum: If one personality (at least) must always be active, how do other personalities become active? There are really only two options, and both could happen: A personality voluntarily activates another.
A personality awakens entirely at random or due to unconscious factors the active personality does not control.Both are supported in text, and the latter makes the most sense as a means of avoiding the "body with no mind" issue as well as answering the question "Who is the body when it wakes up in the morning?" But both could be true at the same time.

THEREFORE, the way I see it functioning is that when multiple personalities are active at once, they either remain that way indefinitely or they may attempt to deactivate each other. Only one can be successful at this, obviously. The mechanics of how this actually happens, who wins, and who is in control of the body during periods of coexistence are unknown. If a personality wishes to go dormant, it either awakens another personality and has that personality deactivate it or waits for another personality to arise at random and then allows that personality to deactivate it. Why a personality wishes to become inactive is unknown, but clearly it happens, and it doesn't generally bother any of the others (Shannon and Kanon do not resent turning over occasional control of the body to each other, for example).

HOWEVER, if a personality can come back at random after being rendered inactive - and I believe it must be possible to do so to meet Ryukishi's expectations and to explain why Beatrice is able to commit evil even though Shannon and Kanon would prefer it if she didn't - I would certainly question why it is that we'd even consider them "dead." It seems more apt to call them "asleep." They cannot permanently die; you might argue that the personality "dies forever" when its purpose no longer exists but that isn't actually supported anywhere and is contradicted by Beatrice's shifting purpose. Yes, you can argue Shannon or Kanon will cease existing when one of them leaves the island, but this ignores two important distinctions: Even if one wanted to remain active, the body will have relocated itself, giving them nothing to do.
The mere fact a personality is dormant and has been dormant for decades or even an entire lifetime does not mean that it could not come back to full existence, merely that it did not.There is no textual evidence that a personality can actually permanently die as long as the body remains alive.

IN CONCLUSION, this excessively convoluted and nitpicky mental scheme is the only way I can see any of these reds being coherently reconciled while still remaining true. Shkanontrice in the stories is an empty shell of a human body with no past and no core which is cohabitated by binary and distinct existences which are capable of deactivating each other yet are also capable of arising at random and wresting control from whoever may have deactivated them by means never explained to the reader and, I would submit, probably never contemplated by the writer. Beatrice commits her murders by wresting control from Shannon and Kanon. However, there is a possibility of Shannon or Kanon returning (end of ep2, end of ep3) and apparently suppressing Beatrice herself.

Having said all that we still run into a huge problem: Only so many people can exist on the island at once. Either the red is referring exclusively to bodies and there is no problem (except that it's intellectually weaselly and dishonest), or it refers to personalities and only one personality can be active at a time, which contradicts the red. So it probably only refers to bodies... which means the number of "people" on Rokkenjima is, technically, unlimited for so long as those people can be invented to exist and designated as inhabitants of an existing body.You should be able to tell this just from reading EP2. Kanon is resentful at Beatrice for allowing them to exist even though they can never achieve true love as long as they are only personalities. Shannon, on the other hand, is grateful that Beatrice allowed her to exist and to love, even though she can't achieve true love...however, when Beatrice starts the ceremony, Shannon becomes less compliant, and rebels against Beatrice, being 'murdered' as a result.This posits that Beatrice is the "master personality" and that she somehow always exists. Otherwise, she could be deactivated just as easily as Shannon and Kanon. If you want to elevate her to that position, just bear in mind it essentially creates a broken red scenario in which any actions ascribed to Shkanon are effectively the actions of Beatrice.

And if Beatrice is just some malevolent squatter who sits around in the mindscape of the mindless host body deactivating and reactivating Shannon and Kanon at will, we're given no explanation as to why she has this primacy of power and why she permits Shannon and Kanon to exist at all. Remember, they don't like her and they actively resist her at several points. There is no reason they would be kept in existence if Beatrice was able to get rid of them, which suggests to me that she cannot permanently get rid of them and thus, is not a dominant personality, just a very strong one who usually wins when two personalities fight over who is in control of the body.I think so, yes. There are a lot of hints that Shannon is able to talk to Kanon inside her head while she is the dominant personality. And there are lots of scenes showing the personalities talking to each other. I would assume that the other two personalities are 'watching' when one is active, and the three can communicate inside Yasu's head at all times.This is flatly contradicted by the Logic Error. Kanon must "cease existing" in some capacity. Thus, personalities can "cease existing" for some period of time, even if they can come back. If they are all active at all times, the red cannot work.

Same deal with ep3. At specific points, Shannon and Kanon do not exist in order for the red to say that they do not. Yet Kanon at least is shown to exist after that point, so at the very least he was nonexistent for some period of time and returned to existence later.If something happens that revives the particular emotions inside Yasu that Shannon and Kanon represent, then those personalities can revive. We see that Shannon was momentarily able to revive when she saw George in EP3, though Beatrice quickly suppressed that part of her and killed both George and Shannon. The same with Kanon seeing Jessica in that episode.Then Beatrice isn't fully in control, and it's plausible to believe she could be suppressed by Shannon and Kanon. Is that not so? Indeed, it at least appears that this sometimes happens. Beatrice probably didn't intend to kill herself in ep2 without killing Rosa, Maria, Beatrice, and possibly Genji; however, if Shannon took control she might very well choose to destroy the body to prevent Beatrice from killing anyone else with it. Similarly, Beatrice has no reason to show Jessica any kindness at the end of ep3, but Kanon does, which suggests Kanon is in control and Beatrice has been defeated somehow.Because the emotions inside Yasu that Beatrice represents have grown stronger than those that Shannon and Kanon represent, 'defeating'/'killing' them. She's finally able to become the dominant personality and defeat Shannon and Kanon when Battler returns to Rokkenjima in 1986 - if he hadn't, she wouldn't have gained the push she needed to beat them.

...

They don't need to be 'active' for Beatrice to kill them. She resolved herself to kill the emotions of love that she felt for George and Jessica - the emotions that are personified by Shannon and Kanon - so that she could perform the ceremony without any obstacles. Thus, she put those parts of her to rest - 'put them to sleep', as the fantasy scene puts it - before the ceremony began. That's why she can say at that point that Shannon and Kanon are dead.And here you've accidentally walked into one of the bigger problems with the whole scenario. Namely, why did Beatrice bother to kill Shannon and Kanon in a manner conforming to the ep3 red text, which she shouldn't even be aware exists (or will exist)? If Beatrice resolves to her actions to the point of gaining dominance as a personality and control over the body, she has effectively deactivated Shannon and Kanon and may as well actually deactivate them, as their existence is nothing more than a distraction. Yet the red implies that they were "killed" (deactivated) in the linked rooms. It doesn't specifically say that, but it's not a clean case where you can read it and find no awkwardness if you argue that, say, she killed both of them in the Servant's Room on the morning of the 4th.

In other words, Beatrice had control of the body and had the power or conviction necessary to suppress Shannon and Kanon. To substitute for them as a body double trick to fool the parents does not require the personalities of Shannon or Kanon be active. Why then would she even bother keeping them active, let alone killing them in a manner which would allow Meta-Beatrice's red text construct to be functional?

The whole thing is nonsense on a fundamental level. You can only sort of reconcile by introducing the notion that Beatrice can't get rid of Shannon and Kanon.

[Drifloon]

This posits that Beatrice is the "master personality" and that she somehow always exists. Otherwise, she could be deactivated just as easily as Shannon and Kanon. If you want to elevate her to that position, just bear in mind it essentially creates a broken red scenario in which any actions ascribed to Shkanon are effectively the actions of Beatrice.

I think that all three personalities 'always exist', inside Yasu's head. But only one exists at a time as far as any outside observers are concerned, since the other two personalities can't influence anything while they're inactive.

I only see her as the 'master personality' in the sense that she created the other two personalities as a way of displacing emotions that she herself didn't want (in Shannon's case, the desire to be a servant; in Kanon's case, her love for Jessica). She can't DESTROY those emotions - or not until October 1986 when Battler's return gives her the power to more or less completely suppress them - she can only displace them. So even though she created Shannon and Kanon, she can't destroy them. Or if she did, it wouldn't accomplish anything, since the emotions would just go to her single personality and she'd still be torn between three conflicting desires...which would inevitably jut lead to her soul splitting again anyway.

What Kanon is angry at is that Beatrice is allowing him (a representation of her love for Jessica) to exist, yet won't decide firmly one way or the other - to either allow him to gain total control of the body and be with Jessica as he desires, or to get rid of him so that he doesn't have to live as 'furniture' (an incomplete soul). He even said he was actually looking forward to the day Beatrice would have the strength to completely reject him!

If you still think this idea contradicts some red somewhere, please explain the specifics.

This is flatly contradicted by the Logic Error. Kanon must "cease existing" in some capacity. Thus, personalities can "cease existing" for some period of time, even if they can come back. If they are all active at all times, the red cannot work.

In the particular scenario of the logic error, the love duel heavily implies that Shannon has beaten the other two personalities and become completely dominant. So I would argue that Kanon does not exist any more, and nor does Beatrice. Maybe, as with the EP3 scenario, Shannon hasn't completely erased them as much as she thinks she has - in other words, perhaps they will revive unexpectedly when Shannon catches sight of Jessica or Battler - but at that point in time, they certainly are dead.

Same deal with ep3. At specific points, Shannon and Kanon do not exist in order for the red to say that they do not. Yet Kanon at least is shown to exist after that point, so at the very least he was nonexistent for some period of time and returned to existence later.

Yes, they do not exist after Beatrice resolves herself to carry out the ceremony without regard to those emotions. But then they revive themselves after she sees George and Jessica, as those emotions that she had 'killed' are suddenly revived.

Then Beatrice isn't fully in control, and it's plausible to believe she could be suppressed by Shannon and Kanon. Is that not so? Indeed, it at least appears that this sometimes happens. Beatrice probably didn't intend to kill herself in ep2 without killing Rosa, Maria, Beatrice, and possibly Genji; however, if Shannon took control she might very well choose to destroy the body to prevent Beatrice from killing anyone else with it. Similarly, Beatrice has no reason to show Jessica any kindness at the end of ep3, but Kanon does, which suggests Kanon is in control and Beatrice has been defeated somehow.

Quite so. I don't think I ever said otherwise. (Of course, it's not like Kanon won against Beatrice permanently - he managed to regain control for a while, but Beatrice won out in the end. Otherwise Kanon would have disarmed the bomb and stopped Jessica from dying.)

And here you've accidentally walked into one of the bigger problems with the whole scenario. Namely, why did Beatrice bother to kill Shannon and Kanon in a manner conforming to the ep3 red text, which she shouldn't even be aware exists (or will exist)? If Beatrice resolves to her actions to the point of gaining dominance as a personality and control over the body, she has effectively deactivated Shannon and Kanon and may as well actually deactivate them, as their existence is nothing more than a distraction.

Yes, and she HAS done that. Where did I suggest that she hadn't? That it allows Beatrice to say that they are dead in red is just a side effect, it's not intentional.

Yet the red implies that they were "killed" (deactivated) in the linked rooms. It doesn't specifically say that, but it's not a clean case where you can read it and find no awkwardness if you argue that, say, she killed both of them in the Servant's Room on the morning of the 4th.

I'm really not seeing this. Could you point out which reds imply that they were killed in the linked rooms? It would become absurd if you claimed that they were.

In other words, Beatrice had control of the body and had the power or conviction necessary to suppress Shannon and Kanon. To substitute for them as a body double trick to fool the parents does not require the personalities of Shannon or Kanon be active. Why then would she even bother keeping them active

I really don't know what you're even talking about any more. Is this about the specific EP3 scenario - which I believe I've already explained - or just in general? She DIDN'T "keep them active" after their deaths in EP3 - they revived later of their own will, but they had been dead/asleep until that time. And in general, before their deaths, of course Shannon and Kanon were kept alive - I've already explained why it was necessary for Beatrice to do that.

let alone killing them in a manner which would allow Meta-Beatrice's red text construct to be functional?

Again, I don't see how the fact that they were killed in a way that lets Beatrice proclaim their deaths in red somehow implies that they were killed SO THAT Beatrice could proclaim their deaths in red.

The whole thing is nonsense on a fundamental level. You can only sort of reconcile by introducing the notion that Beatrice can't get rid of Shannon and Kanon.

Yes. She probably can never PERMANENTLY get rid of them, or at least it's very difficult for her. Perhaps if she defeated both of them in the love duel and then left the island forever, never seeing George or Jessica again. But you're right, the potential for them to revive would still be there, though I still don't see why that means they're not dead. Their death was never specified as permanent.

[UsagiTenpura]

Well, the problem I have with it is not "people having it harder", because different people deals with the same stuff in different ways. Some took it harder than the others. So I am fine with that. The problem is, the logic of the whydunnit is something very hard to follow.

It is not like Higurashi characters are more acceptable because even their life are more messy, they did not do something so messed up as anyone in Umineko. The thing is, their logic is somewhat believable. For example, Keichi in Curse-Killing Arc. His action is a bit over the top, but we could see the logic in his mind. However twisted it is, it is believable that under that circumstances, certain people would behave similarly. And he did not jump down the well straight away, but the story presents us that he gradually lost his sanity. Even if you will not agree with him (you are not supposed to do anyways), you understand his reason, and find it sympathetic at some degree.

Umineko repeated the theme of "love" a lot of time, but the thing is...well, it is too hard to follow the jump in character's inner logic. There're none of them, even Yasu, would make a believable transition to a mass murderer. So even now I tend to think the whole Rockenjima incident is a big tragic accident. It is easier to swallow for me, but it will also raise a lot of question for other readers.


Well you said this much better then I could. I fully agree.
The most important part remains that the "jump" from "inner drama" to "outer mass-murdering with crazy witch decorations" is not something I buy for any of the Umineko cast. It doesn't help that so far the majority of theories I read concerning why dunnits posit character X as "truly evil" which to me means rejecting the why dunnit. They're evil, why bother to look further?

I don't consider "prime" and "Ange's world" to be the same thing at all, but yeah I think in Ange's world that's right, it was an accident. I made a long post at one point as of why it was the only conclusion for Ange's world that was supported by anything at all. To resume the most major points : It's what the official investigation said, and the only ones who think/claim it's murder are the Witchhunters which I compared to the conspiracy theorists of our own world.

P.S.
Well, by the ways, I just finished 1q84 by Haruki Murakami. The characters did some thing similar to Keichi's action in Curse Killing Arc. But by now I have to say I prefer Ryukishi's execution of Keichi's mental state than Haruki Murakami, a Nobel finalists. It's not related at all to the discussion. Just saying.

Interesting comparison. Yeah, that makes a large point still, as Ryuukishi clearly proved he can do interesting backstory/descent into mass-murdering. It's not that he couldn't or failed, but on purpose chose not to.
At least to me it can't make any other sense then this.


Edit: Concerning Shannon, Kanon, etcs.... Even Beatrices

Something I was thinking about... Well I've been considering for quite a long time now that "witches are the incarnation of your passion for x thing" (from what Battler said about witches and Maria in arc 1). Well I moved this a bit further to "witches are the incarnation of our relation with x thing" (and not necessarily a passion). This seems to work even better. I'm not going to deal with Featherine as I think she represents something more "complete" then the rest of the witches...

But LD would be the incarnation of Ryuukishi's relation with his own works.
Bernkastel the incarnation of our relation with Ryuukishi's works.
Beatrice and Battler are probably similar, but on a lower level (writer of the gameboard/meant reader of the gameboard).
... And well Kanon and Shannon are a bit obvious to be the incarnations of the relation between Yasu with George/Jessica.

So if I follow this... having Beatrice killing both Shannon and Kanon during the arcs makes perfect meta-sense.
She's breaking up with Jessica and Kanon in order to be with Battler. So she takes the innitiative and action of breaking a said relationship, which takes the shape of Shannon/Kanon dying. No suicide there, nor any other personalities, and yet they aren't simply roles either. It also explains very easily how can they be revived. A relationship can die.

[Renall]

I think that all three personalities 'always exist', inside Yasu's head. But only one exists at a time as far as any outside observers are concerned, since the other two personalities can't influence anything while they're inactive.

I only see her as the 'master personality' in the sense that she created the other two personalities as a way of displacing emotions that she herself didn't want (in Shannon's case, the desire to be a servant; in Kanon's case, her love for Jessica). She can't DESTROY those emotions - or not until October 1986 when Battler's return gives her the power to more or less completely suppress them - she can only displace them. So even though she created Shannon and Kanon, she can't destroy them. Or if she did, it wouldn't accomplish anything, since the emotions would just go to her single personality and she'd still be torn between three conflicting desires...which would inevitably jut lead to her soul splitting again anyway.Yasu does not exist in the stories she or others wrote.In the particular scenario of the logic error, the love duel heavily implies that Shannon has beaten the other two personalities and become completely dominant. So I would argue that Kanon does not exist any more, and nor does Beatrice. Maybe, as with the EP3 scenario, Shannon hasn't completely erased them as much as she thinks she has - in other words, perhaps they will revive unexpectedly when Shannon catches sight of Jessica or Battler - but at that point in time, they certainly are dead.Then what possible reason does Shannon have for allowing Kanon to come back, and where does Kanon thereafter go?Quite so. I don't think I ever said otherwise. (Of course, it's not like Kanon won against Beatrice permanently - he managed to regain control for a while, but Beatrice won out in the end. Otherwise Kanon would have disarmed the bomb and stopped Jessica from dying.)We can't prove that. It's possible that Kanon never intended to disarm it, or didn't know, or couldn't (due to lack of time or any number of other factors).Yes, and she HAS done that. Where did I suggest that she hadn't? That it allows Beatrice to say that they are dead in red is just a side effect, it's not intentional.Completely missing the point of the objection. What difference is it to Beatrice if Shannon and Kanon are merely not in control, but "active," or forced into becoming "inactive?" Especially since she must know she cannot render them both permanently inactive. No reason is ever given to explain her internal thought processes as culprit.I'm really not seeing this. Could you point out which reds imply that they were killed in the linked rooms? It would become absurd if you claimed that they were.The EP4 information makes the implication through a series of statements that the red is talking about "the rooms in which the bodies and keys were discovered." It's clear that the claim is being advanced that statements like "It is impossible for the murder to have taken place from outside the room!" are referring to specific rooms and not just to "any old room." The "murderer was in the same room" statement isn't specific in that fashion, but the ones leading up to it are. You can make the argument that Ryukishi never intended it to specifically mean "the rooms where the bodies were located," but it's very obvious that he did not cleanly create that interpretation, at least per English wording. Even if he did, there's no particularly clear reason why it was necessary for Shannon and Kanon to be dead at that particular moment, other than to satisfy the red. Beatrice doesn't have to suppress them if she doesn't feel like it, and we don't have any good reason why or when she feels the need to do stuff like that and how she determines it's time.

If you were to posit that Shannon and Kanon didn't die, the red about the victims wouldn't even apply to them and it wouldn't matter. However, they are explicitly referred to as persons and explicitly stated to have died. Ryukishi dug his own grave on this one.I really don't know what you're even talking about any more. Is this about the specific EP3 scenario - which I believe I've already explained - or just in general? She DIDN'T "keep them active" after their deaths in EP3 - they revived later of their own will, but they had been dead/asleep until that time. And in general, before their deaths, of course Shannon and Kanon were kept alive - I've already explained why it was necessary for Beatrice to do that.They don't help her in any way. If she thinks suppressing them will be useful to her, we don't get any explanation as to why she thinks that. If she thinks that it's pointless to put them to sleep because she can't actually get rid of them, she wouldn't bother. She clearly does suppress them, but we have no idea how or why. The only apparent explanation in ep3 is so that they can be declared dead in red - a completely meaningless statement, philosophically - which is little more than cheating misdirection.Yes. She probably can never PERMANENTLY get rid of them, or at least it's very difficult for her. Perhaps if she defeated both of them in the love duel and then left the island forever, never seeing George or Jessica again. But you're right, the potential for them to revive would still be there, though I still don't see why that means they're not dead. Their death was never specified as permanent.How do you murder something that potentially isn't actually dead? How do you even get away with calling it dead?

Ryukishi is linguistically cheating. Something that can come back at any time isn't "dead" and it doesn't cease existing just because it's "inactive." And it certainly cannot be "murdered."Again, I don't see how the fact that they were killed in a way that lets Beatrice proclaim their deaths in red somehow implies that they were killed SO THAT Beatrice could proclaim their deaths in red.Because people do not do incredibly specific and completely meaningless things for no apparent reason just to satisfy some character they don't even know's logic puzzles.

Beatrice need only create the impression of Shannon and Kanon dying, as no observer (story character or reader) can apprehend the mental state of the host body to ascertain whether Kanon and Shannon still exist in it. And she has no reason either to suppress them at all (if she's dominant, she can leave them as voices in her head powerless to do anything about her actions) or no reason to believe there is any value in suppressing them at the particular time and place they're supposed to "die" (because it isn't of any use to her or to the people she wants to find the setup, and she isn't aware the Meta-World exists).

I get the sense you do not understand what I'm driving at. I'm showing perhaps the only workable model by which Magical DID can work for the Shkanontrice Construct and remain compliant with red text, and also demonstrating that it's a crock of shit even when it's functional because it doesn't define itself in accordance with its own internal logic.

[UsagiTenpura]

Something else Ive been wondering about, but no idea where it really leads...

We're shown that in the "world of 1998+", only two people survived from Rokkenjima: Battler and Eva.
It turns out that both solved the epitaph during one arc. So I've been just wondering if there isn't some sort of weird relationship between the two. It does feel like it was their rewards for solving it, a reward that ruined them...
... which would remain sorta along the themes of Yasu, who seems just like Kinzo to have been ruined (mentally/emotionally) over becoming the head.

[GreyZone]

If you say it like that, then as you said Yasuda also solved the Epitaph (excluding Erika, as she probably just died after falling out of her ship). Perhaps that can make Ikuko=Yasu argument even stronger.
But yes, everyone who wore that ring, be it physically or in Meta, really doesn't have an easy life.

Anyway, back to topic:
Why can't we just see Shanon and Kanon as... "Personas"? They are non-existent to Yasuda herself. They are just "masks" and these "masks" themselves have no real meaning, however of course they also are symbols for the love to Jessica and to George. Yasuda also sees all her actions as caused by herself, and not "by Kanon" or "by Shanon" as they are just the medium. That way there are no "personalities that take over" or anything like that. She just plays her role and if she thinks it is necessary, she just changes the role.
She is an actor.

[Renall]

We can't do that because the red text doesn't allow us to do that. It'd be nice to just ignore them or say they're just roles being acted by an actor, but we're told that Shannon and Kanon are "persons" and that they have distinct and separate properties from each other and from their host.

If we didn't have that, we could very easily just argue that it's a single actor putting forth his/her various roles. I'd much prefer that. But it doesn't seem to be what Ryukishi was driving at.

[GreyZone]

Then we have a problem. We still didn't figure out Shkanontrice correctly. I remember when most of us dismissed, that she really had MPD, however with what you said there, we also cannot claim that she has full control at every given time... then what now?

We are stuck between those two possibilities at the moment... so only something "inbetween" is possible...

[jjblue1]

It still doesn't make sense though, because if it was a show being put on for Battler, wouldn't Rosa had tried to make sure that he was watching. I haven't read it in a while, but I didn't quite get the feeling that it was all an act from that scene. Why didn't she check to make sure there were more witness's and that Battler was actually focused and awake when she was getting the key out?

I think we've to draw a line.

The games are actually tales so everything is controlled by the gamemaster.
To make the tale logic the pieces were informed by other pieces that they had to do certain things but this is just to make the logic of the tale work. In the game the fact that Battler saw Rosa is coincidental, the same as the fact George didn't try to enter and see Shannon's body in EP 1.

However what in the game is coincidental was purposely controlled by the Gamemaster.

Very likely the games are unsolvable for PieceBattler who has no access to the red but they're solvable for MetaBattler and the fact that he saw Rosa is supposed to be a hint for him, not for PieceBattler, something the gamemaster had to put in the tale.

In the tale however this fact is just a coincidence. PieceRosa couldn't be sure if Battler was awake and actually saw her and his brain registred the info (he could have been so sleepy even if he had his eyes open he didn't really realize what was going on). Though her actions might have been guided by orders that she received from PieceBeatrice she might not know which consequences they're supposed to have so to her the fact that Battler saw her it's completely random.

MetaBeatrice however purposely moved her piece so that she had to be viewed.

Well I'm actually just going by what people have been saying on this very board.
Nearly everytime anyone came up/comes up with a theory of a culprit and/or their why dunnit, what didn't pass was exactly that.
"Seen before, seen people having it harder" etc. It remains true.

I'm starting to think that the motive between PieceBeato's actions and MetaBeato's actions are different and we're called to guess both.

PieceBeato kills out of revenge, though she'd like Battler (or someone else) to stop her.
MetaBeato writes a PieceBeato killing out of revenge because she'd like for Battler to figure out why she's showing him such tale.

It seems in Our confession the characters are depicted in an unsympathetic manner and accepting things way too easily. It's possible the same applied to PieceBeato. The gamemaster wrote her like a vengeful person and she went for the ride.

The game however more than between PieceBattler and PieceBeato is between MetaBattler and MetaBeato. So I think we've 2 motives, one for the meta and one for the game.

Well, the problem I have with it is not "people having it harder", because different people deals with the same stuff in different ways. Some took it harder than the others. So I am fine with that. The problem is, the logic of the whydunnit is something very hard to follow.

It is not like Higurashi characters are more acceptable because even their life are more messy, they did not do something so messed up as anyone in Umineko. The thing is, their logic is somewhat believable.

...

Umineko repeated the theme of "love" a lot of time, but the thing is...well, it is too hard to follow the jump in character's inner logic. There're none of them, even Yasu, would make a believable transition to a mass murderer. So even now I tend to think the whole Rockenjima incident is a big tragic accident. It is easier to swallow for me, but it will also raise a lot of question for other readers.

*nods* I thought the same though more than with Keiichi I compare Beato with Shion. In Higurashi it's clearly explained what she went through without sugarcoating it or hiding it so even if you can even think she's nut, her actions can be understood. What Umineko lacked was a careful explanation of Beato's thoughts that would let us understand why she did it.
I was particularly annoyed, for example, that info about her 'body unable to love' where given solely in EP 7 Teaparty.
It likely had a HUGE part in explaining her mindset but to guess it is nearly impossible.

So she fell from a cliff. But hey, even though as a child she was sickly, she looks perfectly fine now. The best one would think is bone damage or head damage (which would give her a chance to be insane for reasons beyond her control), not organ damage, not that specific organ damage.

2. The crimes still being committed even if Lion exists reek of non-Yasu culprit theory, however since Shannon and Kanon couldn't exist at the same time but Shannon and Lion could, episode 7 is basically crock in that regards anyway.

Well, I always thought of that as being a hint that PrimeYasu didn't kill anyone though the episode crammed together the world with Lion and the world without Lion. In fact, although everyone aknowledge Lion's existence apart from Shannon and Kanon, when the cousins talk to Will the stories they tell imply that Lion didn't exist in their world. At all.

3. How can Ep 2 contain red truths? If it were truly written by Yasu and she (according to the currently translated manga sections) was dead, there would be no way the truth could be read. Someone knew the answers to all later forgeries, but no-one should have known the answers to the second one for sure.....

There are 2 theories.
The first is that Ikuko=Yasu
The second is that Ep 2 is a forgery of a forgery. In short something like this: Toya read the second message in the bottle and rielaborated it in his mind as a game presented to Battler by Beatrice. This would make Battler and Beatrice two fantasy creatures in his mind where Beato is the representation of who proposed the challenge/mystery and Battler of the part of him who hadn't solved it yet. So while Beato has all the info Battler doesn't.
Beato having all the info might be explained with either the original message containing what will later become the red truth or his own rielaboration being made to be solvable.
However there's no info about the messages being solvable and for Toya to create a YasuCulprit rielaboration without aid would be necessary for him to remember/know more than what he likely could remember/know. So I tend to think that for the games to be a rielaboration it's still needed that Ikuko=Yasu so she could give Toya some tips that would influence his rielaboration.

Furthermore, in regards to Shannon and Kannon appearing in front the objective Erika in game 5, while I can't remember if she explicitly stated that they were both there, there is a possible explanation for this even if it did occur. That is simply that Lamba was not aware this could not occur. There was no logic error, as she made a game where they both could exist, but the reason Battler was able to usurp her position as GM is because he FULLY understood the game, and realised that Lamba was not fully aware of all facets of Beato's game. It is clear she knew about it by episode 8 (when she basically hinted it to us in Bern's game), however, by then she had become the impartial judge.

Thoughts?

It was implied somewhere that Lambda knew the truth behind Beato's game and that's also pretty logic otherwise she couldn't give Battler hints about it, just build up another game who might have pointed to a completely different culprit (for example she could have created a Genji culprit theory in which Genji was the true father of Beato 2's child and wanted revenge against Natsuhi and the Ushiromiya for what was done to his daughter. He waited Kinzo's death because Kinzo actually never had sex with Beato 2 and was his friend. As he saw how Natsuhi hid Kinzo's death and how the siblings were all caring only to put their hands on Kinzo's gold he lost it and went for revenge).

How exactly does killing your own personalities not count as suicide? It renders the word completely meaningless, just like "dead" is meaningless.

I've always found it a pretty weak point in Umineko though there's something that dawned on me reading Our Confession and it's Shannon being willing to comply with Beato's requests. So I wonder if the scenes in which she actually fought this were lying about this as well. So Shannon actually let Beato kill her or turn her off in a sort of 'I'm never again going to pretend to be Shannon' way.
This, more than a personality's death though would be a character's death.
Yasu wouldn't play anymore the role of Shannon so Shannon is dead... at least that's what Yasu thinks. However, should she change her mind, she could play it again and resurrect her.

It becomes similar to how truth from the future can overwrite truths of the past.

Yasu is sure/determinated she won't play Shannon ever again so Shannon is dead.
She changes her mind and voilà, Shannon is alive again.

I bet she would have been able to say in red that in EP 3 Shannon was alive when George went to her... though she could have also merely said that she wasn't. The happy reunion was fantasy, when George reached who he believed was Shannon found Yasu who shoot him.

Though I doubt Beato will ever give a red that will say Shannon didn't resurrect because this would deny her witch version of the story.

[Renall]

Problem is that letting somebody who shares your body temporarily deactivate you (but not to the point that you couldn't potentially reawaken later) just doesn't obey the same linguistic constructs as would apply to independent biological entities engaging in murder or suicide or whatever you want to call it.

Using biological terms to describe disembodied minds of varying degrees of mental activation who are effectively immortal so long as their host construct is biologically alive is cheating, in that it's trying to use terms commonly understood to apply to biological agents and then extrapolating them to refer to things which are not structured that way. You can't have it both ways like that.

A good example of the cheapness of saying something is "dead" or "nonexistent" would be an electrical circuit. When a circuit is off, the circuit is left incomplete or "broken" by means of the switch, such that the circuit isn't intact and current isn't flowing. When the circuit is switched on, it's complete and current flows.

Yet we wouldn't say an electrical circuit is "dead" when it's off. It's an "incomplete" or "broken" circuit, but in this context "broken" doesn't mean the same thing we might use in other cases. A broken circuit isn't non-functional; in fact, if it's broken because it's supposed to be off most of the time, it's working entirely correctly. We also wouldn't say the circuit "doesn't exist" just because it's off, incomplete, and not presently operating to run current. The lightbulb in your room doesn't cease to exist just because it's switched off. We don't say a bulb is "dead" until the entire apparatus stops working as it should. A "switched off" light is not "dead." A burned-out bulb is.

And that's kind of the problem I see with Shkanontrice as it's apparently supposed to be viewed according to Ryukishi. Really, Beatrice is not "burning out" Shannon and Kanon's bulbs. She's just switching them off. They didn't go anywhere, they're just not active. This requires a whole new vocabulary to explain, as it isn't the normal context in which words like "dead" and "murdered" would be used. If you're going to co-opt those terms, you have to explain them. Ryukishi didn't do this because explaining new terms would draw attention to the fact that Shannon and Kanon are not being spoken of in the same context as biological entities. That's rather the point: It's cheating because to be honest would not allow the reader to be deceived properly.

[jjblue1]

Problem is that letting somebody who shares your body temporarily deactivate you (but not to the point that you couldn't potentially reawaken later) just doesn't obey the same linguistic constructs as would apply to independent biological entities engaging in murder or suicide or whatever you want to call it.

I'm starting to think that Shannon, Kanon and Beato are nothing more than Yasu's fantasies for which she used her body as vessel so that they could interact with others and be believed as real.

In short they're similar to Sakutarou.
For Maria he's real, alive and can die.
Featherine explains the way Sakutarou can die are:
- destroying his vessel
- Maria dying
- Maria stopping to play with him/denying his existence (well, that's what Ange does with the 7 sisters)

Note that Sakutarou was resurrected when Maria acceted another body as his vessel and Ange sort of resurrected the 7 sisters again when she decided to re-summon them.

The illusion of Shannon and Kanon being real is made perfect by the fact they didn't use a puppet body as vessel but a real human body so the illusion of them being real is way more marked than with Sakutarou, who's obviously moved and voiced by Maria (or the 7 sisters whose vessel is... well unmoving and not human shaped).

Note that in Ep 7 we can clearly guess that Shannon is Yasu's imaginary friend and when Yasu decided to become Beato it can be viewed as if she handed her body as vessel for Shannon who automatically becomes the... let's call it the official personality of Yasu.

[Captain Bluebeard]

And that's kind of the problem I see with Shkanontrice as it's apparently supposed to be viewed according to Ryukishi. Really, Beatrice is not "burning out" Shannon and Kanon's bulbs. She's just switching them off. They didn't go anywhere, they're just not active. This requires a whole new vocabulary to explain, as it isn't the normal context in which words like "dead" and "murdered" would be used. If you're going to co-opt those terms, you have to explain them. Ryukishi didn't do this because explaining new terms would draw attention to the fact that Shannon and Kanon are not being spoken of in the same context as biological entities. That's rather the point: It's cheating because to be honest would not allow the reader to be deceived properly.

Well, but that 'vocabulary' required to explain this concept is somehow presented. I think the concept of 'alive' and 'dead' was stressed in EPs 2 and 6 in various ways, like jjblue says.

[UsagiTenpura]

Is it possible that the narrative, mystery/fantasy, is entirely independent of the "logic" of the gameboard? Like there's no "mystery" or "fantasy" story, there's just one story (the narrative) which gradually becomes more and more fantasy while the who/how dunnit remains logic puzzles that are far closer to mystery.

To me it sounds like it could solve most problems concerning the why dunnits and the Shkanontrice reds.


Also, I wanted to say that Shannon and Kanon cannot "come back to life and die at will".
Even tho it's fantasy scenes, one has to happen, and has to play a role in the overall story that's going on.
We've never been presented with someone just popping back alive with no narration process leading there.


Edit: It'd be also interesting to compare something like perfect blue to Umineko. The main character has a messed up life leading them to have hallucinations but also is playing a role in a story who's lines and story happens to be very similar to her own real life. I'm bringing that up because there's a few times the movies showed a scene as if it was true to learn at the end that it's a cut for the movie they are making. Anyway, it feels like an influence on Umineko to me, but also might help to see Umineko in a different light. The story within a story aspect is much more clear.

[unsuspectingvisitor]

Then what possible reason does Shannon have for allowing Kanon to come back, and where does
Kanon wasn't dead because there's no red truth regarding his death in Ep6. He's not even part of the first twilight to begin with.

Ryukishi is linguistically cheating. Something that can come back at any time isn't "dead" and it doesn't cease existing just because it's "inactive." And it certainly cannot be "murdered."Because people do not do incredibly specific and completely meaningless things for no apparent reason just to satisfy some character they don't even know's logic puzzles.
I disagree, Shannon and Kanon didn't comeback at all but rather we are lead to believe that they are revived. In Ep3, Shannon was revive by Beatrice to meet George . But did all of that really happened? Battler wasn't around to witness what that and we even see those Golden Butterfly flying around. If you just ignore those fantasy scene or if you look at what Battler saw at that time, you will notice that George was killed by someone in that room, and there's no trace of Shannon being alive at all.
and about Kanon appearing and speaking with Jessica, there's no proof that it was Kanon. What if Beatrice just used Kanon's voice at that time? since there's also a Golden Butterfly in that scene i can doubt that scene really happened
[/QUOTE]

[Renall]

Kanon wasn't dead because there's no red truth regarding his death in Ep6. He's not even part of the first twilight to begin with.
I disagree, Shannon and Kanon didn't comeback at all but rather we are lead to believe that they are revived. In Ep3, Shannon was revive by Beatrice to meet George . But did all of that really happened? Battler wasn't around to witness what that and we even see those Golden Butterfly flying around. If you just ignore those fantasy scene or if you look at what Battler saw at that time, you will notice that George was killed by someone in that room, and there's no trace of Shannon being alive at all.
and about Kanon appearing and speaking with Jessica, there's no proof that it was Kanon. What if Beatrice just used Kanon's voice at that time? since there's also a Golden Butterfly in that scene i can doubt that scene really happenedWhat precisely is the difference, philosophically, between the body of Kanon acting like Kanon and treating Jessica as if it were Kanon but actually "being Beatrice," and it simply being Kanon?

There is no observable or discernible difference. There is no rule that lets us know whether it "really is" Kanon. Do you not see how this permits Ryukishi to do or say anything he wants in this situation, if we accept what you're saying as true? He can literally have Kanon be present and acting like Kanon and then wave his hand and declare that Kanon was not there.

If it's a single intellect posing as three roles, it isn't possible to declare any one of them dead while the body lives. If it's three distinct personalities which exist only as minds, it's impossible for them to be dead at all. If it's whichever one the author prefers at a given moment, it's poorly-written garbage.

[Kylon99]

If it's a single intellect posing as three roles, it isn't possible to declare any one of them dead while the body lives. If it's three distinct personalities which exist only as minds, it's impossible for them to be dead at all. If it's whichever one the author prefers at a given moment, it's poorly-written garbage.

False dichotomy? Are there no other possibilities?

Also, in the case there are three personalities, it does not follow that any or all of them can't be 'dead' at all. Personalities can be dead, just perhaps not in the way you expected them to be.

Once again, because this doesn't conform to a detective novel 'dead' does not mean it can't be a mystery in the genre sense. Nor does it immediately follow that this allows the author to do anything he wishes.

As Ryukishi said in his own interviews, it is possible for one of the personalities to act even though they're dressed up and have an outward appearance of the other personalities. (But yes, Ryukishi did play a dirty, dirty trick on us. :heh: From his own mouth, he admitted this in one of his interviews, though he was being coy about what the trick was at the time.)

I think the ultimate proof of this is at when Beatrice finishes giving the guns to the siblings in EP7, she is shown to sit down and not move at all. Her body is not dead, but at that point all three personalities are effectively dead. Once that happens, she won't make any moves, physical or verbal from then on.

I think perhaps if someone is an artist, we would need a picture of the body Yasu, dressed as Shannon with wig and all, holding a smoking pistol but with an evil smile like Beatrice. This would perhaps sum up what has been going on the best.

Anyways... let me finish writing up the quotes I've gathered... I think if you read through those again, the picture would become much clearer, if it hasn't already become clear from my Final Culprit Theory.

[GuestSpeaker]

I don't consider "prime" and "Ange's world" to be the same thing at all, but yeah I think in Ange's world that's right, it was an accident. I made a long post at one point as of why it was the only conclusion for Ange's world that was supported by anything at all. To resume the most major points : It's what the official investigation said, and the only ones who think/claim it's murder are the Witchhunters which I compared to the conspiracy theorists of our own world.

Except why would Eva care about protecting that in your opinion?

Also to whoever said real things can't die and come back, they sort of can. It is a semantics game, but with the classic cardiac definition of death (though it is disputed), people have been medically dead for periods of time. Sorry for the nitpick.

No opinions on my Erika trapping herself with her "where the body is" idea?


Also, this has probably been addressed a thousand times, but can someone explain to me the logic of the "I am the 18th human on Rokkenjima" and "still only 17 of us" reds? Is it the use of the word 'human'

[unsuspectingvisitor]

There is no observable or discernible difference. There is no rule that lets us know whether it "really is" Kanon. Do you not see how this permits Ryukishi to do or say anything he wants in this situation, if we accept what you're saying as true? He can literally have Kanon be present and acting like Kanon and then wave his hand and declare that Kanon was not there.
There's is some kind of confirmation though. Jessica immediately recognized the voice as Kanon. There's no need for any kind of rules.

Anyway, Isn't it enough that he declare himself as dead person and only living a spirit? Just like how a real dead person have a spirit after death based on beliefs, a dead personality can also have a remnant left behind after it died. Similar to Toyah's case with Battler and Kotobuki/Hisashi Yukari with Ange. The red truth doesn't really obliterate the existence of the personality itself , It just didn't allow them to show that personality again to other people . But Jessica's case was different, at that time, she was blind and in state of panic . This allows whoeverplayingasKanonShannonBeatrice to deceive Jessica into believing that Kanon was a spirit and still dead.

If it's a single intellect posing as three roles, it isn't possible to declare any one of them dead while the body lives. If it's three distinct personalities which exist only as minds, it's impossible for them to be dead at all. If it's whichever one the author prefers at a given moment, it's poorly-written garbage.
It is impossible for the actor to permanently kill those personalities inside his/her head but making other people believe that those personalities died can make a similar effect. For example, In Ep3, Battler and others saw Kanon's corpse inside the chapel. Dr. Nanjo did a fake autopsy and concluded that Kanon was dead. There's no way that they would know the autopsy was fake so they willingly believed what Dr. Nanjo said because he's a physician. Adding the fact that the actor will never shows up as Kanon again, enforced the truth that Kanon was really dead and be seen again walking again, at least base on everyone's subjectivity. It becomes a truth that everyone believes in making the Red truth Kanon was dead possible.

I hope you understand what i wrote here since i don't get it myself. English isn't my first language so it's hard to reply.

[jjblue1]

I disagree, Shannon and Kanon didn't comeback at all but rather we are lead to believe that they are revived. In Ep3, Shannon was revive by Beatrice to meet George . But did all of that really happened? Battler wasn't around to witness what that and we even see those Golden Butterfly flying around. If you just ignore those fantasy scene or if you look at what Battler saw at that time, you will notice that George was killed by someone in that room, and there's no trace of Shannon being alive at all.
and about Kanon appearing and speaking with Jessica, there's no proof that it was Kanon. What if Beatrice just used Kanon's voice at that time? since there's also a Golden Butterfly in that scene i can doubt that scene really happened

When I first went through Ep 3 with the belief it was solvable but that I should trust the reds I also thought that the resurrection of Shannon and Kanon might be fake... but when I slammed against the obvious fact that someone that was supposed to be dead was walking around and killing Nanjo.

So the problem is that Shannon&Kanon's body has to be alive and if vessel is alive Kanon and Shannon can be resurrected at will and this makes their 'dead status' completely different from... let's say Nanjo.

What precisely is the difference, philosophically, between the body of Kanon acting like Kanon and treating Jessica as if it were Kanon but actually "being Beatrice," and it simply being Kanon?

There is no observable or discernible difference. There is no rule that lets us know whether it "really is" Kanon. Do you not see how this permits Ryukishi to do or say anything he wants in this situation, if we accept what you're saying as true? He can literally have Kanon be present and acting like Kanon and then wave his hand and declare that Kanon was not there.

If it's a single intellect posing as three roles, it isn't possible to declare any one of them dead while the body lives. If it's three distinct personalities which exist only as minds, it's impossible for them to be dead at all. If it's whichever one the author prefers at a given moment, it's poorly-written garbage.

That's why I'm starting to think that Kanon and Shannon are nothing more than Yasu's versions of Sakutaro, only they use Yasu's body as vessel and this makes other mistake them for real.

Though yes, this gives Ryukishi a lot of freedom as the rules for Kanon and Shannon's presence are pretty unclear.

For example it's likely that Maria acknowledge Sakutaro's presence each time she's with Sakutaro's vessel and says he's not there when she's without him and the only way to have Sakutaro's vessel around but not Sakutaro is to break Sakutaro's vessel so for Maria Sakutaro will be dead.

However if we take Ange and the seven sisters... when can be say that they're not with Ange or that they are with her? We've only Ange's word on that department.

And now back to Shannon and Kanon. They have a vessel and, if the vessel is witnessed and acts in a certain way it could be possible to say that 1 of them is present (it's impossible to say if the other is present as well though because the narrative might describe him/her as 'in the room but hidden from the view of the observer'). However technically it's possible to 'kill' Shannon and Kanon and have their vessel still move around and even fake their presence so just the vessel acting like one of them wouldn't assure us that they're there.
This trick makes Shannon and Kanon as elusive as the 7 sisters while at the same time using a vessel that's way better than Sakutaro and that allow them to be acknowledged as real.

[UsagiTenpura]

Except why would Eva care about protecting that in your opinion?
Well you saw what happened on that day.
Everyone backstabbing each other for money and showing their ugliest side... and then they all died in an explosion. So... Eva has no more idea about the specifics of the explosion then anyone else, and anything she'd say about others would only make them look bad. No points in insulting the dead and Eva would probably be insulting her own self in the process.

It's thanks to her sacrifice that Battler was able to create arc 8 the way it was.

Also, this has probably been addressed a thousand times, but can someone explain to me the logic of the "I am the 18th human on Rokkenjima" and "still only 17 of us" reds? Is it the use of the word 'human'
The statement about being the 18th human is sorta a title. It's not really any different from saying something like "I am the golden witch, Beatrice" in red (followed by something like "Im sorry there are no witches on this island").

[Renall]

False dichotomy? Are there no other possibilities?Perhaps. Do you have one?Also, in the case there are three personalities, it does not follow that any or all of them can't be 'dead' at all. Personalities can be dead, just perhaps not in the way you expected them to be.

Once again, because this doesn't conform to a detective novel 'dead' does not mean it can't be a mystery in the genre sense. Nor does it immediately follow that this allows the author to do anything he wishes."Death" in its ordinary meaning carries a particular notion of finality. Unless you are H.P. Lovecraft, most people do not believe that dead things can stop being dead at some point. It's fine to use "dead" to refer to an unorthodox existence, so long as it refers to the ordinary notion of permanent departure and nonexistence in some recognizable way. If it doesn't refer to that idea, the onus falls to the person rendering the description to properly define "death" in this context.

And what everyone seems to be forgetting is that we're never given context for any declaration of death, making it entirely possible to believe that no one ever physically died even when the red claims they did. After all, the only explanation of death we've actually seen alluded to by the author is a death of personality which is inherently temporary. Why shouldn't we just believe every use of "dead" in red refers to temporary personality death? To muddle the story in this fashion is a serious error.As Ryukishi said in his own interviews, it is possible for one of the personalities to act even though they're dressed up and have an outward appearance of the other personalities. (But yes, Ryukishi did play a dirty, dirty trick on us. :heh: From his own mouth, he admitted this in one of his interviews, though he was being coy about what the trick was at the time.)Yes, but that's philosophically worthless. If someone looks like Shannon but clearly by action isn't Shannon, that's one thing. However, if a character looks and acts like Shannon or Kanon, but can't reliably be said to actually be Shannon or Kanon (because they may just be Beatrice posing as them), then we've entered the territory of allowing the author to do whatever he wants whenever he wants by merely refusing to acknowledge or display any sort of internal logic which will permit us to know the difference.

It's more than a mere "dirty trick," it's effectively outright cheating. "This looks, speaks, and acts like Shannon, but at any given moment it might not actually be Shannon and I am under no obligation to provide any comprehensible mechanism by which a reader could know the difference. Also, I will make the life-or-death status of Shannon something I can and will codify at particular moments in the story, even though it doesn't mean anything because of the way I've set up this situation."

[GuestSpeaker]

It's more than a mere "dirty trick," it's effectively outright cheating. "This looks, speaks, and acts like Shannon, but at any given moment it might not actually be Shannon and I am under no obligation to provide any comprehensible mechanism by which a reader could know the difference. Also, I will make the life-or-death status of Shannon something I can and will codify at particular moments in the story, even though it doesn't mean anything because of the way I've set up this situation."

While I understand your point, I don't really get what you are trying to argue. We sort of know from what Ryu says it is possible for other personalities to pretend to be the other ones, but so what?

Also in regards to reviving Kanon in ep 3, it is possible that Beatrice pretended to be him to give Jessica some last kindness, even though he was actually dead. That was the point of the fantasy scene after all.

[Renall]

While I understand your point, I don't really get what you are trying to argue. We sort of know from what Ryu says it is possible for other personalities to pretend to be the other ones, but so what?

Also in regards to reviving Kanon in ep 3, it is possible that Beatrice pretended to be him to give Jessica some last kindness, even though he was actually dead. That was the point of the fantasy scene after all.My point is there is no appreciable difference between one and the other, so no matter what Ryukishi writes it as, he can claim it's something else.

Someone can go "So how did Kanon show up and talk to Jessica if he was dead?" and he can be like: He came back to life, because personalities can do that; or
Oh it was just Beatrice, who is in the same body as him, using his voice and behaving exactly like him. But it wasn't him, I swear.It's just stupid. It can be whatever he wants it to be to make his red work, and if he has to resort to undetectable existential cheating just to make red function, he's not very good at what he does.

Like I said, it's one thing to see Kanon in the hallway only to have him turn around with an uncharacteristic grin and shoot the person who saw him. That's a clear indication that, appearances be damned, it's not Kanon. When "Kanon" appears before Jessica, treats her kindly, and acts in every possible way as if he is Kanon and Jessica is completely incapable of distinguishing that he is not Kanon, it would be absolute B.S. to say "but in actuality it wasn't Kanon." The hell it wasn't.

And the point is, because he can get away with this kind of crap, he can essentially never make a mistake in his stories or contradict himself because he just has to change the rules that he never defined in the first place, and had an obligation to define.

[UsagiTenpura]

And the point is, because he can get away with this kind of crap, he can essentially never make a mistake in his stories or contradict himself because he just has to change the rules that he never defined in the first place, and had an obligation to define.

Rules that he told us in arc 1 that it was our job to figure out, much like learning how to play chess by watching a game?

He never clearly put foward any set of rules and specifically told us it was our job to figure them out, so how can you claim he broke them or changed them? Don't you have any doubt at all that it might be you who got it wrong? This reminds me of physics, when a formula stops working past a certain range it's not because physics are arbitrary beyond such a point, but that the formula you had, tho workable in a certain range, needs to be replaced by a better and more complete one.
From my opinion you never got past the formula of "typical mystery".

The one thing I'm personally angry at Ryuukishi at is actually that I feel the readers who enjoyed it the most aren't those who tried to solve it, and rather got into the fandom of the whole, with battle games, fanart, and cosplay, etc.


It'd be easier to accept a critic of an orange, if it was criticizing it as an orange, then as an apple.

[AuraTwilight]

Rules that he told us in arc 1 that it was our job to figure out, much like learning how to play chess by watching a game?

Yea, except he didn't carry through on his side of the obligation. You can't learn how to play a game via observation of the players are cheating.

[goldendust]

The red truth is just a crutch designed to allow certain reasoning hence why it was introduced into the game. I do think it taking at face value is a mistake. It is what Battler did in the third game. In fact we seen Beatrice change the red truth by stating there are 17 people instead of 18. The red can even be defeated by the golden truth.

Also regarding the Shannon/Kanon personality trick is unfair. Keep in mind that Beatrice was capable of reveling and killing both Shannon/Kanon at will during the games, I think that was suppsoe to be the hint. As well that the two had a certain meta awareness as Beatrice. You cannot argue that Ryukishi did not display any indication that those pieces were different then the rest.

If you compare this to chess. Shannon/Kanon are the witches' pieces that have basically the ability to turn off and on. We seen that certain pieces can be given ability that can be considered cheating. Erika as Bernkastel's piece has full meta awareness and the detective authority. For the human side that is pretty much cheating if you consider how little Battler had.


You know when I first watched the anime first, I had the impression that the culprit(s) was impersonating a few of the characters since Rosa brought up the point of "are you really Rudolf's son?". My first theory was that Genji=Kinzo and Kanon=Shannon. Granted it seems silly now but that is how I thought the solution to the first game and second game could be explained. That they "killed" one of the characters to allow one free rein to commit more murders. :heh:


Like I said, it's one thing to see Kanon in the hallway only to have him turn around with an uncharacteristic grin and shoot the person who saw him. That's a clear indication that, appearances be damned, it's not Kanon. When "Kanon" appears before Jessica, treats her kindly, and acts in every possible way as if he is Kanon and Jessica is completely incapable of distinguishing that he is not Kanon, it would be absolute B.S. to say "but in actuality it wasn't Kanon." The hell it wasn't.[/b].

Although that Jessica was blind was suppose to be a pretty large indication that was not Kanon as well that it was a fantasy scene. I would agree if that it was BS if we seen Kanon.

Also being Jessica scared, lonely, and grieving from her parents' death could not be that hard to fool. If you think about it. If you think that culprit was talking to Jessica, there is only short list of people that are able to impersonate Kanon.

The culprit having a significant voice range was a given since Beatrice's voice did not ring any bells when people heard her in game 2 and in game 4.

And the point is, because he can get away with this kind of crap, he can essentially never make a mistake in his stories or contradict himself because he just has to change the rules [b]that he never defined in the first place, and had an obligation to define

Well I do wonder if that was the point of the logic error. If you think that Battler wrote himself into a corner with red and using Shannon/Kannon trick to get himself out of it despite commenting that it does not seem very mystery seems to be what some people have a problem with Umineko.

Yea, except he didn't carry through on his side of the obligation. You can't learn how to play a game via observation of the players are cheating.

That does being up a thought.

Lets say you play chess with one person. You shows him most moves but neglects to mention other moves that pieces can do leading to win every match. Is that really cheating or just within certain information to keep an advantage? You did not really break any rules.

I do think that is basically what Ryukishi/Beatrice's game was. A chess-like game completely made by her allowing her to create/reveal the rules or even bend them on a technicality.

[Kylon99]

Perhaps. Do you have one?

Yeah, three personalities existing in one body, but personalities can commit suicide or be told by another personality to cease to exist. (Abandoned, dead, future cut off, perhaps would be more accurate.)

"Death" in its ordinary meaning carries a particular notion of finality. Unless you are H.P. Lovecraft, most people do not believe that dead things can stop being dead at some point. It's fine to use "dead" to refer to an unorthodox existence, so long as it refers to the ordinary notion of permanent departure and nonexistence in some recognizable way. If it doesn't refer to that idea, the onus falls to the person rendering the description to properly define "death" in this context.


The problem is you're thinking of normal people and how normal people define death. You need to think from Beatrice's point of view instead and how she defines death, especially death for 'furniture.'

Ahh... nvm.. I'm going to cut short this reply and get back to working on the mega post I have lined up. You should really consider what the quotes I will have in EP1 and 2 are saying first, and see if you can come up with a different perspective. (Something apparently EP4 had been saying alllll over the text, but I'll get to those EPs in another post.)


It's more than a mere "dirty trick," it's effectively outright cheating. "This looks, speaks, and acts like Shannon, but at any given moment it might not actually be Shannon and I am under no obligation to provide any comprehensible mechanism by which a reader could know the difference. Also, I will make the life-or-death status of Shannon something I can and will codify at particular moments in the story, even though it doesn't mean anything because of the way I've set up this situation."

By the way, is it entirely possible to solve the detective mysteries (the closed room murders and so on) in the story without Shkannon?

What if the Shkannon hints are only for the greater mystery of the culprit and not for the detective mystery hijinks? I'm re-reading EP4 and it struck me at one point with Ange(Gretel), Battler and Beatrice's discussion at how useless the red, blue and gold texts are for solving anything other than the greater mystery of Shannon's situation.

Because if you think about it, using red text to solve a detective mystery would technically be a violation of typical detective fiction, not to mention Knox rules. I think more than a few people have posted that on here. I'm starting to think it's not just a violation, but useless.

To the detective mysteries, perhaps all text ends up being 'black.'

EDIT:
The red truth is just a crutch designed to allow certain reasoning hence why it was introduced into the game. I do think it taking at face value is a mistake. It is what Battler did in the third game. In fact we seen Beatrice change the red truth by stating there are 17 people instead of 18. The red can even be defeated by the golden truth.

I didn't read to the end before I posted. 8)

Anyways, I'll try to post that mega post tonight since I'm nearly done. I hope there's no message length limit on here. 8)

[RandomAvatarFan]

You need to think from Beatrice's point of view instead and how she defines death

Who is Beato?
I am Beatrice, the Endless witch!

Virgilia talks about Endless magic, and how it affects Beato's mind. How Beato sees it as "nothing more than two sides of a coin that she can just flip over"

[Kylon99]

Umineko Comprehensive EP1-2

I've gone through EP1 and 2 looking for specific clues now that we know The Answer as I outlined in a few posts awhile back. I was looking for places where Yasu, who wrote EP1-2, wrote her thoughts on topics like, "Humans are XXXX" or "When we were children we were ABC, but as we grew into Adults we were XYZ" as opposed to narrative, action or mystery. Of course there's even more hints about the specifics of the murders and so on, but I put those elsewhere as we already kind of know the answers for those. (I suppose I'll post those elsewhere one day.)

First, you should actually read the answer I posted or else nothing will make sense.
These were the original posts explaining the secret that Yasu holds, which explains why she behaves the way she does.

First, an explanation of brain injuries, (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=3954688&postcount=27121) especially how they pertain to Tooya. The summary is that people who have suffered brain injuries notice a distinct difference between themselves before and after and results in them thinking that they are a new, different person. Or personality.

Second, the theory on what Yasu is. (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=3954774&postcount=27122) The summary is that Yasu is not simply crazy or pretending. She has a problem with self-identity most likely caused by a brain injury and then growing up without any reference points to what is normal. She creates several personalities which live by their own rules that trap her, such as how Beatrice can only exist on the island. Ultimately, 'Yasu' is not the name of any personality at all and at best it's a convenient name to represent the body itself. The only real parts of herself are Beatrice, Shannon and Kanon. In addition, she changes greatly when she realizes this, where she goes from an innocent child-like existence to a bitter and tortured one. She is forced to confront reality.

Third, some consequences and evidence on the theory. (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=3957837&postcount=3585) Too much to list here, but includes ideas like, this is why Shannon couldn't leave the island, why they all feel like furniture and why Beatrice turned from the innocent one we saw in EP7 to the bitter and cruel one in EP1-4.

The Answer

We've known since the Author Theory that Yasu wrote her thoughts and situation she wanted someone (especially Battler) to figure out right into the text, so this is really just picking through and identifying what's there. I was able to slot everything into two main themes for EP1 and 2, Adults vs. Children and some narrative or hints about Beatrice and Shannon's situation. I want to point out that I'm not really making a 'theory' here; rather, I am simply organizing the two largest themes presented in EP1 and EP2 and letting them speak for themselves. When I looked at the notes, it looked like Shannon and Beatrice's entire story and the solution lay bare, right there, on the page for us.
The quick summary is that Shannon is the culprit. Her reason for killing everyone is to release herself from her fate of being trapped on the island, in near slavery to the Ushiromiya family since she cannot quit the job or leave the island and the high pay is of no benefit to her in any way. This is written very plainly in Episode 2. She frees herself by getting Beatrice to go through with the Epitaph Ceremony, which to all of them, including Kanon, is a real magic spell. Both Beatrice and Shannon are playing the Epitaph Ceremony *straight*. Because Beatrice is Yasu's personality of a real witch, in Beatrice's mind she actually IS a witch and her performance of magic is effective. Shannon is acquainted with Beatrice and both believe the ceremony will be effective in freeing Shannon, albeit, freeing her to her death or "the day of rest" as Kanon calls it, although her growing love for George causes her to regret the coming end like a regular human.From what I've seen of the text, Umineko is basically solvable with just EP1 and 2 with respect to who the culprit is based on these gathered quotes, so long as you don't completely discard the white text or think the white text is some kind of lie. Basically, read what Beatrice/Shannon have told us in the text not as some kind of delusion or fantasy but read it straight, as in this is how she thinks, despite how unrealistic it may seem.
I've tried my best to summarize each quote without injecting opinion or any theories and stick to confirmed answers. I'll wrap this in several layers of spoilers as there is a huge amount of text. The quotes are taken from the text of EP1 and 2, so it's not like you need to re-read it if you remember the scene in question. They will serve as a refresher and reminder for those of us who haven't gone through EP1-2 again. (I was surprised at how much I've forgotten, or just plain ignored! 8) )

This section is interesting and somewhat relevant to Beatrice's development, but since this message is already too long, I will post this in a separate message (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=4117110#post4117110).
This theme represents Shannon's entire story, if you read all of these quotes in order. EP1 ends up showing how Shannon is stuck on the island, but the most revealing bits come straight from EP2, where Shannon's entire plan and justification (if you could call it that) is outlined. I've compiled both statements about Beatrice and Shannon together.Kyrie to Battler: "Fufufu, can great detectives deduce the emotions and feelings between men and women? They can't, right? Figuring out the feelings of the opposite sex is an even more advanced art than exposing the tricks in difficult crime cases. If you ask me, romance novels have much deeper mysteries than masterpiece mystery novels."Working as a servant for the Ushiromiya family was a heavy burden to bear, but the pay wasn't bad at all.Working for a full three years would earn more than what was needed to enter mainstream society.That was why, even though the graduates from the orphanage realized what a harsh task working for the Ushiromiya family was, they still hoped to be accepted.
Maybe the fact that Shannon had managed to continue for more than ten years shouldn't be viewed as her having more willpower than any of the other servants.Maybe she was made to continue working for ten years because she didn't have the courage to say that she wanted to quit.
To Kinzo, who could not even trust his own blood relatives, those 'excellent' servants sent from the Fukuin House were the only ones he could trust."Have you continued working to try and meet some target sum?"
".........Y, ...yes, that's right. ......I have nowhere to go outside of this mansion. ......I have been getting along well with Milady and the other servants' children, too.........I am sometimes scolded by Madam, but, ......caring for the rose garden and cleaning the mansion is fun..."
"But, that isn't Shannon-chan's, ......no, Sayo(紗代)-chan's life."
".........Umm..."
Shannon cast her eyes downwards when she heard her real name..."Even after becoming an adult and a full-fledged member of society, I've been studying and I've learned something. ......A human's life is not as monotonous or short as we thought when we were kids."
When they are students, everyone has certain fears that they can't shake.......Wondering whether they will live the rest of their lives like they were in sleepy classes after a monotonous and boring school day, spending their time in a carefree laziness without anything interesting happening until it was all over...
However, these thoughts will only arise while a person is still an underage student.
Compared to a human's life, the time they spend as a student is nothing more than a blink of the eye, a period where they break through the shells of their immaturity.The inside of the shell might be a hot, suffocating and boring world, but the world beyond that shell is vast and filled with limitless possibilities.
"So far, you have been living inside your shell. Aren't you making the mistake of thinking that your life will always continue like this?"
"That is......, .................."
Shannon couldn't deny those words....
She hadn't been able to doubt her way of life, and since she never had any hope or goal to change herself, she had continued her life of idleness.
...And if she were asked whether this life was satisfying, ...she wouldn't have been able to nod......This might have caused her to avert her eyes from the truth....As long as she wasn't admonished by George, she would have continued pretending not to notice as her real life slipped away, neglected, bit by bit...
"......George-sama.............Should I not, ......continue living, ...this way?"
"You must not. Ah, and by the way, didn't you break one of the rules just now?"
George immediately gave a strict answer, and then broke out into a mischievous smile. Shannon already knew what she was being chided for, ...and it seemed that it embarrassed her, as she hung her head."I probably can't order you to wear it on your left hand. You might be timid and dependent enough to actually obey that kind of an order. ......But I want this last part to be given by Sayo's own will. ...Understand?"
"............Y, .........yes."
"So, ...that's my order. .........I want you to think about it well tonight and show me your answer tomorrow."
"..............."
Shannon nodded back.
...Today was the culmination of their long relationship....This moment had not come as any surprise to Shannon..."......So I handed her the engagement ring, and then, ......it was all over."
"......A sense of value varies with the person. ......But being proposed to by a man, .........can, in a way, be the high point of a girl's life. ...So I'm sure. Last night, I think Shannon was, from the bottom of her heart, ......no, more than she ever had been since she was born, truly happy...""It's a magic circle to borrow the power of the sun. ......He who wears it as a talisman drawn in gold shall be able to break free from the bonds of any prison, and receive the power to gain freedom."
"...Break free from the bonds, ......gain freedom...? It sounds deep..."
"The word 'bonds' is not limited in its interpretation to some kind of physical object. ...Therefore it does not only hold meaning for people locked up in an actual jail. It can also refer to the release from mental bonds such as ties of obligation and inescapable fate."
"......Ties of obligation and, inescapable fate, ......you say? ...That's also pretty deep."
"But I really don't understand... What does this have to do with those six bodies? ...Far from bein' released, they were killed and stuffed in a storehouse, weren't they?!"
"It's not like the magic circle was drawn for their sakes. The six of them were there for the sake of the magic circle. It is truly pitiable. ...Kihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihi."......However, it's impossible for there to be anything after the decimal point. You shouldn't be able to show the number of people with anything but an integer....And yet, 19>X>18.How do you explain the fraction less than 1...!
It's no wonder....That 19th person was something...... that couldn't be seen...... That's why, since you can only write the number of people as an integer,you couldn't see that person......
That witch cannot be seen.Because Beatrice has no body.Therefore, she is invisible.
Is there a 19th person, or not?Does the witch exist, or not?19>X>18....The witch exists somewhere in that X...!“The words are from the Old Testament, Psalms 107 verse 16. …...’For he has broken gates of brass and cuts through bars of iron’. …...This magic circle has two effects. First, it can open a door regardless of which method has been used to lock it.”
“That sure is convenient magic. ...So you’re saying that they’re trying to make it look like they’re a witch because this closed room has a door that can’t be opened without relying on magic...?! And the other effect?!”
"When you are blocked in every direction, it finds an unopened door and opens it. ......By using it in a difficult situation, it gives you a solution you hadn't even thought of until then. To put it simply, you receive the power of observation and the power of discernment, inspiration and intuition. ............Kihihihihihihihihihi."...How many people are normally on this island?!"
"It, ...it changes depending on the shifts for the servants, but there's Father, my husband, me and Jessica. And two or three servants. ...Today and yesterday, there were five of them, but there aren't normally that many."
"Which means that normally, ......there wouldn't be enough sacrifices to carry out this 'ceremony'. ......No, wait. ......There's that rumor that Grandfather was collecting servants from an orphanage to be used as sacrifices in some creepy ceremony..."
"So what does this mean?! He increased the number of servants to increase the number of sacrifices, ......and waited for the annual family conference when even more people would gather......Isn't now the only time of the year that this ceremony could be held?!""Certainly, this might not be the real sea. ...But, if those little guys swimming in there believe that it's the sea, then to them it certainly is the sea."
"Even though they're inside a finite tank?"
"The sea is finite too. But, even if the sea were infinite, how much could we cover in our whole lives? I'm sure that it would only be a miniscule fraction of the sea."
"...Certainly. It's ironic, isn't it? Even though the world is so vast, most of us live our lives without ever leaving our own country."
"If they believe that this place is a complete world, then it would be a wonderful world, a sea...even if it were in the bottom of a narrow well. ...A sea in the eyes of the frogs that live there."
Shannon, who spent her days as a servant on a small island 10 kilometers in circumference called Rokkenjima, said that with a smile."Then, our relationship happened thanks to your believing heart. Magic dwells in the power of feeling. So, I'm sure that magic has brought us together."
".........You're right. ...I really think, ......that this is truly magic."
"But, you know, that's not quite right. Every time we met, the Shannon within my heart kept becoming more and more beautiful. If the same thing happened to you, then the fact that we are here today is simply an inevitable consequence, rather than something caused by magic or a miracle."
"...............No. A miracle did happen, George-sama." She stopped walking on the beach, gazing beyond the sea.
" ......A miracle?"
"No, magic. ...It happened."
I was bewildered by that slightly mysterious expression, which I sometimes heard her use.
"......Magic, you say?"
"Yes, magic..........Even if I say it, you probably won't believe me, so I won't say it. But, that magic definitely had the power to grant the miracle which caused you and I to meet each other."
"You mean, like a good-luck charm?"
"Yes. Maybe it was something like that. ...Except that it wasn't a charm, ...it really was magic."
"...Hmm?"
Shannon wasn't the only one who'd want to credit an encounter on a miracle or serendipity, it might be a universal thing all girls share.The sound of waves soaked into my ears....No, this was the sound of enraged waves.My body, bathed in painfully cold splashes, did not allow me to forget.
It wouldn't let me forget the memories of the day when my old fate was broken and smashed.
In the past, tomorrows were literally like a mirror to me.
The person I am now, was always projected there.......It was a tomorrow absolutely no different from today.That was my old fate.
...But at that moment, for the first time, I saw a different fate beyond the mirror.
The witch whispers.She tempts me to take a bite out of the fruit of knowledge.She torments me, saying that as long as I stay in the paradise of god, I'll remain furniture.
So I try to choose to know love, and become a person.......Those days were like sweetly melting honey, .......but then, I hadn't realized that they were the beginning of the days filled with a new kind of suffering.......By now, ......I must break this mirror.
Until today, I had fought for many days.Inside my heart, the virtuous part of me and the part that sided with the witch repeatedly fought each other.
And now, here I am.
I had forgotten. I am furniture. Furniture isn't human. So I am a being who must feel gratitude for even being treated like a human, and I am not permitted to wish for anything more.
Even if people develop affection for furniture that they're used to using, that is an emotion on the human's side, and the furniture's side has no right to hope for that.......They should just serve with simple honesty every day.
But that feeling I felt when talking with George-sama and Jessica-sama, ...is a forbidden drug for me."Y, .........yes, Madam."
"That is good. Servants should endeavor to only use those words. The next time you talk back, I will give you an even more severe punishment, so with that in mind, engrave these words in your heart."
"Yes..., Madam. ...Thank you for your guidance."
"You are welcome."
As Natsuhi acted like her headache was troubling her, she headed off down the corridor...
When she couldn't see her anymore, Shannon hung her head and sighed.......She had been careless, so something like this had happened.
Even though I'm bad at everything I do, I should be able to at least carry out the cleaning as well as an average person can, right? It's because I can't even perform that well, ...that I'm so shameful and crying.
What could be more shameful than this?
Not only have I been unable to perform a single bit of cleaning well, but just now, when Natsuhi was scolding me.........I was envisioning that person appearing and rescuing me.
If only George-sama were here. Would he casually step in and save me?
I'm sure he would show up cheerfully, intentionally acting like he doesn't know what's going on, nimbly change the subject, and make me forget I was ever rebuked by Natsuhi...The expression on Kanon's face was, ...hatred. He made that expression for Shannon, who didn't know how to do it herself...So she thought of the portrait of her other master as that person herself, and always treated it carefully, treasuring it....And telling the witch that only existed inside the portrait the secrets of her heart had become part of her daily routine.As Shannon wiped the dust from the witch's portrait, she spoke that inside her heart.
.........I certainly am incompetent and uncultured, just as Eva-sama said.......I am not a person....So maybe I have no right to love.........But in that case, why was I given a heart which can know love?
...At that point, Shannon held back her tears for a time."Your worries are due to love. ......Which is the single element of the world. In other words, everything of this world. ......When that is not fulfilled, it means the world is not fulfilled. It is like continually scooping water into a flask with a hole in it. ......Even if you scoop and scoop, it is never filled, an eternal desert of the heart. The original sin that humans are founded upon and everything is made of."
"Understand? What Adam and Eve learned when they put the fruit of knowledge to their lips was love. ...Because of that, humans were chased out of the garden and became 'human'. Which means that what makes one human is knowing love and suffering. ......You are a girl with a kind heart. You should be praised. Now that you have known that, you are no longer furniture. You are now 'human'. I recognize that upon my name.""It comes down to this. If you take action and break that annoying mirror for me, as a reward, I will grant you your wish."
"......I am in a very good mood today. If you want to, you may change your wish, and I can give you all of the gold I bestowed upon Kinzo, alright? *cackle*cackle*!""What I will do is nothing more than give you a chance to fulfill your feelings as a reward. ......It's up to you whether you try to break it or not. If you break it, I will grant your wish."
"If you don't break it, the tomorrows up until today will continue for all eternity. Your wish will not be granted for all eternity. ......Do you understand? What I am saying? *cackle*cackle*."She had left a mark to make it impossible for them to think that this was a daydream.As Shannon and Kanon thought back on the butterfly bruises on their hands, and the pain they had felt when those had been left there, they kept standing still, in shock............
And from that day on.........Shannon was tormented by days of suffering and conflict........."Like I said, this overnight trip was so you could overcome that stage, right?! You're already at the level of things like kissing and hugging, right?!"
"M, Milady, I don't know what you mean by that.... G, George-sama was a real gentleman with me until the end. That is, I mean, ...... I also, ...wondered if those things would happen, you know, ...but we, even though we are going out, I mean, it, it's not that we are married or anything..."Shannon understood it clearly.Knowing love was the same as gaining a soul. ...And therefore she was born again from furniture to a human.There was absolutely nothing wrong with Beatrice's words. ......By knowing love, Shannon had learned what it was to be human."...You can too, Kanon-kun. ......You can become a normal human.""..................Stop it, that's the witch talking."
"Yes. Beatrice-sama taught me. ......By gaining the single element of the world, we can become human. No, nobody's human if that isn't satisfied. ......So people spend their entire lives trying to gain that single element."
"I don't understand what you're saying, Nee-san. I don't want to listen to ranting."
Don't I know best that during her life on Rokkenjima, she'd had no choice but to kill her sense of self?
Then the time she spent, ...not as Milady, the successor to the Ushiromiya family, but as a single girl called Jessica, living life to the fullest, must have been very important to her....I worked close to Milady, saw her in all seasons, and I thought I knew everything about her....But that was only limited to one side of her, Milady of Rokkenjima.
......We are furniture.We serve on Rokkenjima, and end our lives on Rokkenjima....So I had come to think that Rokkenjima itself was our whole world, as though, like in Ptolemaic theory, the ocean spilled off the end of the world into an abyss.But when I look at Milady like this, I realize that this is a horribly narrow outlook.
...I still can't go along with the excitement of the crowd....But I feel like I can see something that 'cannot be seen' on Rokkenjima..........I don't know if this is the unseeable thing Shannon was talking about...But I still can't see the ocean as blue..."Kanon-kun, you think that your own fate is everything and you gave up. I can't accept this kind of fate, so I do the best I can. ......So in addition to the constrained part of me that must act as the daughter of the Ushiromiya family, I've created another part of me that can do everything I like."
".........Another part, of yourself."
"Yeah. ......Kanon-kun, you've been instructed to say 'because I am furniture'. ......I'm sure there's been many things that have been tough just because you've been instructed that way. ...I think that's, ......really unfortunate. .........But the thought that your entire life will be decided by that, I think that's just sad."
"........................""...You are a human Milady. So you are free to live any way you like, and any kind of future is possible for you. It's almost like you have wings and can dance through the sky like a bird. But I am not like that. Even if I looked like a bird, I'd be nothing more than a domestic duck. ......Even though they have wings, they cannot fly."
"But despite that, to speak of that dream in the sky, ......that's just, ...too cruel...!"
"...Furniture and ducks!! What the hell is all this!! ............No, ..."Jessica had unconsciously gone along with Kanon's forceful manner of speaking, but she realized that she shouldn't fire back, and swallowed her words.
"............I don't know anything about you. I don't even know your upbringing, and I don't know the hardships you've been through. ...So I can't even imagine why you started calling yourself furniture."
"......But know this. You aren't furniture or a duck. You're a real human."
"........................"
"If you want to say that the Kanon-kun working as a servant is furniture, that's alright. ......But, ...in that case, ......don't you think that you can make a part of yourself for when you aren't furniture, when you're human?"
"......Only a human like Milady can embrace that possibility. ...I am not like that. My future and possibilities, aren't even a dream I am supposed to see. ............So, Milady. Please don't, ...say any more, ......cruel things......""...Umm, ...wh, ...what.........do you mean by that, George-san...?"
"I mean what I said. ......I still haven't built up my castle. Once I can do that, for the first time, I will be able to think of myself as an adult. ......When that happens, I want to marry you."
"......Th, ......that's, umm, ......err..."
"But, my heart won't let me do that anymore. ......So I want to give you an engagement ring."
"E, ...engagement, ......you say... But, umm, ......I, ......am, ...............furniture........."
"Maybe that's true. And furniture has to listen to what people say. ...Now, I will have a ring made that's appropriate to give to you. I think I'll probably bring it to the family conference coming up soon. I'll give it to you then, so please, I want you to let me hear your answer."
"......If you accept my engagement proposal, I will proclaim right there, to all of the relatives, including Grandfather, my engagement to you."
"G, ......George-san............"
"I'm sure some people won't approve of our relationship. ...But, there's no need to look at their faces. ...Because you only have to fill your eyes with me."
"I will definitely make you happy. That, I promise you, definitely.""Is that Maria...? You sure have gotten big... She's at that growing age...""You last met her six years ago, right? A lot has changed. Women are animals that are born again in only one day when they have a change of heart."
Kanon realized this, but he didn't know what he should do...
"That's right.........I'll exchange it for something I received earlier."Kanon remembered that a similar candy which he had received from Maria was in his pocket.
Maria stuck out her hand.......Kanon thought she was trying to take it, so he held out the candy, but Maria didn't try to grasp it.
......Then Kanon realized....She was saying 'Give it back'.
......No matter how tragic and trampled it was, the candy was Maria's....Her mother had bought it for her.No matter how tragic, it had to be this candy...If it could be made clean by dusting it off......Kanon hung his head.
".........I can't do anything except dust it off. .........Sorry."Kanon held out the miserable candy she wanted. Maria took it, and spoke.
"...Thank you. A human can't do anything except dust it off, but a witch can repair it to how it was. It would be easy for Beatrice. Kihihihihihi."
".........Maria-sama, ...you know about Beatrice..., ...sama?"
There couldn't be anyone related to the Ushiromiya family who didn't know Beatrice's name, with Battler as an exception....The hallway in front of Kinzo's study was filled with the scent of sweet poison particular to that green liquor...Genji, who was completely used to it, did not grimace....And the Golden Witch didn't grimace either.
"......How long has he been inside here without leaving?"
"I believe it has already been several years."
"............Did he want to make me a bird in a cage that much? How pitiful. ......Now you, the person who wished that, are the bird in a cage. ...Aren't you the ghost of the study? ......What a pitiful man to not recognize that."
"......He would probably continue his research until the day he could meet you again, even until he literally became a ghost."
"Is it love or madness or a delusion? ...If those are well enough developed, will they become magic? ......You sad magician."
The witch grasped the doorknob to the study.
......When she did, there was a sound like that of flesh burning and splitting open....It was the sound of the doorknob literally burning the witch's hand.
"......Beatrice-sama..."
"What is this. .........A magic repellent! ...Is that person unable to get by without relying on something like this...?"
"...I have heard that this door is painful for you, Beatrice-sama. Shall I open it...?"
"No, ...it is fine. If he wins, I will be a bird in a cage for all eternity. ...If he loses, only the life of a laughing stock will be left, the life of a pitiful magician who went mad with love and lost everything."The message was too long and so I had to split it.
The quotes continue here (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=4117106#post4117106).

[Kylon99]

This is the continuation of the quotes regarding Beatrice and Shannon.
The original post can be found here (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=4117105#post4117105).



"......This day, ......that Shannon should have been waiting impatiently for, will probably force upon her very harsh thoughts, ......and give her emotions that she must not know. .........I thank you for bringing me, ...us furniture the day of our release as a present."
"......And, I hate you for making this day difficult for Shannon to accept...!"
"I wanted to make you feel pain from your regrets as well, just like Shannon. ......However, you continued to be like furniture with foolish honesty, and didn't get ensnared by me."
".........However, it looks like you loved Shannon too dearly, right? *cackle*cackle*cackle*cackle*! Shannon's regrets became your regrets. ......Will that become hatred for me...?"
"........................"
"If you want to kill me, try to do it. ......*cackle*cackle*cackle*cackle*! As Kinzo's furniture, you should have at least that much power, right? However, if you kill me, the day of rest for the furniture will not come for all eternity. ......Could you withstand that......? Can you really reject your release by me......? *cackle*cackle*cackle*!! .........Kneel!"
"Wh, ......what...!"
"Kneel and kiss my shoes. .........Otherwise, I will leave this place. ...I'll go back and never show myself again for all eternity. ............So, Kanon? Could you withstand that...?"
"...............Ku......"
"If the door to the Golden Land is opened, your life as furniture that has been full of hardship will end. ......If you desire, I will even give you life as a human. After that, you will be on the same level as Jessica! Surely you want to know of it, the taste of love...!"No matter what she did, Kyrie couldn't help think of that smile that had appeared on that woman's face as anything other than a thing of misfortune......
It feels like my chessboard thinking mistook a vital premise, ...now that I try to understand that smile of misfortune.
...That's right, that smile seemed like that of something not human looking down on me.I have reasoned based on the assumption that my opponent was a 'human' like us.......However, just like this island now, she may be a being that is not human, and human values may not matter for her.
In that case.........all reasoning is useless.For what reason has the witch been invited here today?"I have a dream. It isn't only an ambition to become the leader of my own domain in business. I also have a dream to build a family together with a partner I can spend my life with."
"...I want two kids at the very least. And I'd like to do some sports that the whole family could do together. And many more things besides that. I often talk with Shannon about that kind of thing. .........Although every time I talk about that sort of thing, Shannon always laughs and says I'm getting ahead of myself."
"...For some reason, even at the age I am now, I've started having some calmer thoughts like I'm in my old age. ......Healthy grown kids, and grandchildren running around. If only I could spend the rest of my life at a slow pace, surrounded by that, and together with Shannon forever."
"You're definitely getting ahead of yourself. ......But, how should I say it, it sounds like you, George nii-san."
"Being surrounded by that family would probably be so wonderful. ......The ideal family that I've painted in my mind is something like that."
...To Shannon, who had been raised in an orphanage, that harmonious image of a family was probably something she yearned after.......And George, who promised that he would definitely grant that wish for her, was surely a fitting person for her to spend her life with...So I thought. ...I thought that day of rest wouldn't come for all eternity."
".........That's what I thought! But I believed that it would definitely come someday! So I never forgot that I am furniture! But Nee-san, you forgot that!"
"..................It's, ......my fault, isn't it...............I'm......"
"Yeah, it's your fault, Nee-san. ......If only you hadn't known love.........we would both be happy that this day has finally come! You built up shameless regrets! Even though it was a world that you must not leave!!"
"...............Will the ceremony, ...begin tonight...?"
"...Yes. ...............Then, she said this to me. ...Tonight, George-sama will probably give you an engagement ring, Nee-san."
"........................"
That was a fact.......George should have snuck in an engagement ring in his pocket today.......And surely, he would hand it over tonight.
"......She joined you together, planning to use you and George-sama as the sacrifices of the second twilight. ...Understand? By tempting you, Nee-san, she took advantage of you!"
"............That's right. ......I never thought of that."
"But she told me. ...She promised that if you don't accept the engagement ring tonight, you won't be chosen as a sacrifice, Nee-san. ............I think that our chances of being able to go to the Golden Land together are very slim.
There will be 13 people as sacrifices. Only five people will be left alive. ...The chances of us being a part of that group are really slim. ......However, if only you, Nee-san, can take advantage of that promise, those chances rise higher! I want to take that bet!
Our salvation is in the Golden Land. If we can make it that far, we can become human. And I want to walk through life as a human, together with you, Nee-san...! If we do that, we might be able to achieve, ......true love!"
"...........................In the past, we used to dream about being able to go to the Golden Land. .........If we go there, any wish will be granted. .........We will be saved from this pain. ............We believed that."
However, in this ceremony, only a few people, decided by fate and chance, would be invited to the Golden Land.......For an instant, Gohda was startled to find everyone's gazes gathered on him, but because of his naturally vain personality, this actually gave him a feeling of superiority.Therefore, he answered in an extremely calm and graceful manner.
"......Yes. Because that person wanted to eat alone in the honored guest room, their food was carried over there."Therefore, Gohda's extremely graceful and reasonable response made it obvious to everyone that a 19th person, a visitor, existed...
"Honored guest room? Guest? ......What, who are you talking about?"Natsuhi's words echoed the question that everyone who didn't know about the visitor, the Golden Witch, was thinking.
Gohda was slightly disoriented, as though he hadn't thought Natsuhi would actually question him.......It had been an honored guest spoken of so severely.He hadn't imagined that Krauss and his wife might not have know.
"Umm, ......it is Beatrice-sama."Shannon was bitter and sad.......The door to the Golden Land, had been opened.......The witch had definitely told her that.
That meant, the demise of everything..........Even if she accepted the ring from George, ............now, they could never be married.
No, in the first place......Did furniture like her, ......have the right to be married?Even if the witch hadn't come to tell of their demise, ......wasn't it fated to fail sometime or another?Had she turned her gaze towards the fun days with George, ...and purposefully closed her eyes to the sad reality?Then, George-san.
......If it was decided by fate that this engagement ring, ......that this promise would not be fulfilled, ......would you still give it to me...?
...Shannon tried to ask that, ...but she swallowed her words.
Because George had already spoken the answer.
......George had said it.
He had said that to him, an engagement ring was infinitely similar to a wedding ring.
Therefore, accepting George's ring had a far more sacred significance than a promise to marry."I'm not saying this because of a momentary emotion. I'm not just looking at how you are now. .........I'm looking at the you of tomorrow, of the next day. ...I'm even gazing at you as you'll be in old age, in the future, as I say this."
"......You are always talking George-san. ...About how you want to spend your old age slowly, surrounded by healthy children and grandchildren."Kanon to Jessica: "......I, liked Milady...!! And after seeing Milady on that day, I started liking her even more...! And when I heard that Milady also liked me, I was really happy...!! But I'm furniture, ......and I can't accept Milady's feelings!!"
"...You're wrong. .........We may be furniture. We may be less than human. ...But that doesn't mean that we aren't qualified to love."
"I believed that if those thoughts would never be fulfilled, it was better without them!! I just decided that someday, a day would come when I would disappear, and that would definitely hurt her, .........no, that's wrong!! I was just frightened!! I, ......was just afraid, that if the love could not be eternal, it was better without it!!"
"......Cicadas, even though their lives last only a few weeks, fall in love and disappear. .........There are no cicadas that don't fall in love because it will be over in a few weeks."That is because the rules for my loss have also been established.There's nothing as boring as a game you can't lose, right?
A way to defeat me.That is, the epitaph offered to my portrait.
That is both the way to open the door to the Golden Land and the key to destroying my ceremony. I follow the epitaph and complete the ceremony. You solve the riddle of the epitaph, destroy the ceremony and overthrow me...! Solve the riddle hidden in the epitaph, and expose the location of the vast gold I gave to Kinzo!!"Kanon bowed once again, and closed the door...
.........He should have said something to give her some courage.............But for some reason, it felt like that would actually hurt her.
...Why? .........He didn't know.......Surely, that was because, ..................he was furniture.So even now, ...he couldn't grasp human sadness.
As Kanon repeatedly questioned himself, he walked down the corridor..........He felt like the window at the end was cooly calling to him.
"..............................In the end, .........am I nothing more than furniture after all......?"Beatrice to Kanon and Jessica: "There are three ways to hurt a woman. ...Let me teach them, just for you. One is to hurt them with a knife. Another is to hurt them in their heart. ...And the last one is the most difficult, and the most effective way of hurting them. And yet it can hurt them without you even realizing it. Do you know what it is...?"
"H, ......how could I know, I don't even want to know!!"
"It's to betray their hopes. ......No living being is more of a dreamer than a woman! They see their own dreams, and hurt themselves. ......A distant man like you hurts women the most! You couldn't understand. You don't have a clue how much you have injured Jessica.""...Umm, I think it went 'm', 'b', 't', 'q', so, ...umm, umm...how many did that mean, I think...umm...umm, ..................Anyways, this is incredible. You can't even count close to that with all the fingers on both hands. It really would be impossible unless a miracle occurred.""......Certainly. He wanted to give a spectacular gambling-style example, very much like how Kinzo-san used to talk."
"What is it, what is it, can everyone read it? Someone tell me what it means too.""Kihihihihihihi. ...At least learn English. How did you get into high school without even being able to read this much? Kihihihihihihihihihi, ouch. Ouchouchouch."
"Mind your own business. So, what's written there?"
"...It means something like this. 'This door is opened only when a miracle occurs. You will be blessed only when a miracle occurs'."
"......Grandfather's magic is based on astronomically low probabilities. ...In other words, the miracle that would open this door, ......would probably require an incredibly vast magical power. ......Kihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihi. Ouch.""......Hmm."Genji took the handkerchief with the spiderweb stuck to it from Shannon.And he approached Kanon, who was pinned to the wall by Gohda's massive body and the knife.
"St...op it...!! Don't bri, bring that close...!! Stop it, st, op!! Gyaooooooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhh!!"
When Genji pushed the handkerchief up to Kanon's face, ...there was a sound just like the one you hear when you set meat on a red-hot iron plate.Since long ago, Shannon had hinted at a certain occult aspect regarding how she had met George. After listening to her, George had come to think that this was typical of a girl, associating love with fate, chance, and miracles.
......George thought that she had gone a little too far when she broke the spirit mirror that was offered at the torii shrine, but he had smiled and forgiven her, thinking that it was only a little prank she had done because she had seriously desired a relationship with him.
......Just breaking a mirror in some musty shrine wouldn't change the fate of our meeting.Maria explaining Beatrice to Battler: "......Then, ...then why is Beatrice giving us all these big hints? ......Not just that, why did she even set up this game-like thing?"
"Risk is essential for magic."
"......Risk. ...I don't really know what you mean."
"For example, in a marathon, ......do you think that a medal that anyone can get by running the whole thing is worth the same as the medal given only to the person who gets first...?"
"No, I don't.........So what does this mean? In the end, she's just playing around? Purposefully giving us a chance-"
"W-ro-ng. That's what a witch is. No matter how great the magic, there are definitely risks and weak points. No, there has to be."
"...I don't get this stuff you call magic, ...but if I think about it as a gamble, I can understand a little. If you aren't prepared to lose big, then you can't win big. And the slimmer the chances of winning, the bigger the payoff."
"That is correct. So Beato properly explained the risk of the ceremony to everyone. Therefore, if this riddle is solved, the ceremony will be suspended. After all, if she breaks her promises, then there wouldn't be any risk."
"If we solve this, ...will she really keep her promise?"
"Why is it beautiful when a flower withers? Why is it that an artificial flower isn't beautiful no matter how elaborate it is, even if you can't tell the difference by looking? Humans can bring about miracles by gambling their death. If there were an undying human, that person would have no way of bringing about a miracle. .........Us too, life too, the witch and the ceremony too. If we don't bear a risk, we can't succeed in anything."
"......What do we do if we solve the riddle? Should we raise our hand and cry 'That's it!', tell the witch our answer and see what she says?"
"Uu-. I don't know about that. But, if we solve it, the ceremony will surely end automatically."So, ...if you don't bear a risk, nothing can be gained. That is doubtlessly the way of the world, ......but it was in conflict with the chessboard theory style of thinking that I liked. At least when making moves in chess, players grope for the best move, always trying to avoid risk and hoping for an advantageous turn of events.
They don't trust to chance, like in gambling.......That's right, there's no room for gambling in an intellectual game. And yet, this person called Beatrice had committed such an outrageous crime, ...or maybe a ceremony, ...while purposefully imposing conditions for her own loss and announcing them to us.
In chess, you always play the best move. So by standing in your opponent's position, you can predict their next move....However, you couldn't say for sure that Beatrice's moves were always the best moves.
I thought she was probably making us focus on the epitaph to trick us in some way, speaking in riddles.......But Maria said only that was impossible. She said that this was a genuine risk that the witch had taken, and therefore proof that this was a formal ceremony for magic.
.........I can't understand this witch called Beatrice.
Even though she is supposedly committing this chain of murders with some goal in mind, ......why did she go to all the trouble of exposing the conditions by which she would lose?......No matter how I turn the chessboard over and think from my opponent's perspective, ......I can't understand why she would give up if this riddle is solved.
Isn't it almost as though Beatrice doesn't care whether she wins or loses? It's natural that chessboard reasoning wouldn't work if you played chess against an opponent like this......I don't understand, I don't understand.......What is Beatrice after that's making her cause this crime?
If she just wants to massacre us all, she could just do it secretly, without this whole crazy setup. There was no need for that scrupulous advance notice, this closed room acting or anything.
...It's all over-acting.I don't understand at all what it means.
As long as I continue to think of Beatrice as a greedy human culprit, will I be able to understand anything?...If I don't accept her as a witch, will I be unable to even set the pieces on the chessboard after all......?"...I made it look like I was putting you first, ...but I was always putting you off. I went to your athletic meet, I went to parent's day, ...but I was always thinking about how I appeared to the world, and you were never in my eyes. ......Are you saying, ...that you even want to be together with that kind of Mama......? Even though, ......I've been such a bad Mama............!!"
"Hey, Mama. ...Did you know? There is only one Mama in this world. There's no good Mama or bad Mama. ...There's just one Mama. So for Maria, it's alright if there's only one Mama in the world. And Maria wants to become the only Maria for Mama."
".........The Maria who's in a good mood that you want to spoil, and the Maria who's a nuisance and you don't want to be around, aren't different people. Maria is also just one Maria. ......So both the scary Mama and the nice Mama are together. ......To Maria, ...there is just one ......Mama......"
"...............I was, ......such, ............an idiot............I didn't need gold. If only I had just pulled your hand.........I was such, ......a stupid Mama...!!""How far must the deep wounds in your heart recede before they can be healed? .........This is, .........deep, deep. ......Sometimes, wounds close up while a fragment of something is still inside. ...Even when those wounds appear to have healed, they will continue to throb for all eternity. Sometimes you have to open the wound once to completely heal it."
As the witch spoke, she stared deep into Rosa's eyes.......What in the world, ...was she peering at? Rosa felt uncomfortable, but she couldn't look away.
"............So your pain, is being stuck with a fate from the time you were born. ...How heart-breaking. ...You don't have to say it. I understand. ......I understand......"