[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Kwr32]

I've watched this thread for a while, but never actually posted. I do have some theories and questions about Umineko. ...Said theories are basically jokes, the theory I mainly believe in is the George Culprit Theory of which there are many variants. The one I've come up with is a bit... well, I guess normal, but I may post it later to receive feedback on it anyway.

As for these (joke) theories:

1. Yasu is the greatest roleplayer known to mankind. I actually wonder if this is true, since it's in a sense how I see the entire Shkanon thing.

2. Prime doesn't exist, the Rokkenjima Incident is a mass media troll and Tohya and Ikuko are getting rich off it while Ange and Eva are having a great time looking down on anyone who believes in it in their minds, especially Ange. The aforementioned four are the real Ushiromiyas.

3. The culprit of Prime is the adventurous little Maria, who goes outside and gets lost in a forest, finding a secret entrance somewhere underground! She finds a mysterious clock, and, ignoring the obvious giant pile of gold in the room, gets fascinated with the switch because it seems to do absolutely nothing. She turns it on the side that it wasn't on before and leaves to see if anything as changed. Nothing has, so she explores the forest some more. In the meanwhile, Eva is writing her thousand plans to ensure the truth about Kinzo's status is revealed in her diary. Rosa believes Maria's still at the guesthouse, and the cousins are going batshit crazy that she isn't there. So near midnight, they decide to get all the adults' help, and kaboom goes that clock. Maria is still in the blast range, but her distance is enough so that she isn't completely vaporized and her jaw remains. It's her jaw because she was climbing a tree and trying to get and apple by biting it off and climbing down. ...Or something.

4. Umineko and Higurashi both take place in the Nasuverse because Ryu07 is a fanboy. I wonder just what possibilities could stem from this idiocy, honestly. :heh:

As for my questions, at the moment I only have one that's been bothering me for a bit, and it stems from Ougon:
Does anyone know the nature of Black Battler's "Black Truth", or is it just some cool stuff that exists for no apparent reason other than to make it so that he seems evil?

[AuraTwilight]

The "Black Truth" thing is basically just because it's cool and evil-sounding. In reality "black truth" is equivalent to black ink in a book...or the white text of Umineko. The default 'text' and 'speech' we use normally.

[GabrieliosP]

The "Black Truth" thing is basically just because it's cool and evil-sounding. In reality "black truth" is equivalent to black ink in a book...or the white text of Umineko. The default 'text' and 'speech' we use normally.

I prefer the theory that Black Truth is something among these lines:

Ushiromiya Rosa never loved her daughter Ushiromiya Maria.
Ushiromiya Eva despised Ushiromiya Ange with all her heart and soul until the last second of her life.

Okay, the sentences above aren't really truths but you get the idea. B.Battler is supposed to be a heartless killer (as in he lacks the "heart" of crime, the whydunnit) so it makes sense for the only known wielder of Black Truth if the Black Truth is like this.

[Wanderer]

One might be gifted with the the power to see what no one else can see. But as long as he's the only one with that power, and as long as he can't demonstrate that what he sees is real, then his "reality" is no different from an illusion.

But if that person can get just one other person to see what they can see, they can create an entire Universe.

And all that jazz.

[Judoh]

The "Black Truth" thing is basically just because it's cool and evil-sounding. In reality "black truth" is equivalent to black ink in a book...or the white text of Umineko. The default 'text' and 'speech' we use normally.

Most of the time we refer to it as "the text" even. I say it like that when talking about foreshadowing in umineko.

I've never heard of this being connected with B.Battler though. Probably mentioned in the fighting game I guess? Haven't played that.

@GabrieliosP: I don't see any difference between that and a heartless blue truth though.

[GabrieliosP]

Most of the time we refer to it as "the text" even. I say it like that when talking about foreshadowing in umineko.

I've never heard of this being connected with B.Battler though. Probably mentioned in the fighting game I guess? Haven't played that.

@GabrieliosP: I don't see any difference between that and a heartless blue truth though.

B.Battler has Black Truth instead of heartless Blue Truth 'cause he's SUPAH EBIL.

Also, Battler's meta super in Ougon is named "Blue Truth that pierces through everything" and is a blue beam. B.Battler's is a black beam named "Black Truth that pierces through everything".

Also, Battler has some attacks with the name "Blue Truth" in it. In B.Battler's moveset "Blue Truth" is changed to "Black Truth".

[AuraTwilight]

The thing is, EP7 defines Black and White text as ordinary text. And it's kind of...more canon than Ougon.


Black Battler is just invoking "rule of cool." That's all.

[Renall]

Maybe black text is just really really blue and you can't tell.

[haguruma]

The difference between reality and illusion. There are only two ways to tell them apart:

One is by checking how consistent and logic they are. If they're not, then they're probably illusions.
One is by checking how many people see them or agree about their existence. If you're the only person that sees them, then they're probably illusions.
The problem I see is, that I don't think this applies to Umineko, though of course this is a valid reality construct.

In Umineko truth and reality are very much different and similar to Slavoy Zizek's reading of Jaques Lacan, truth is just a verbalized reconstruction of the reality before our eyes, formulated by using everything that is not perceivable as a signifier towards what is perceivable.
Truth how it is handled in itself within the text of Umineko is basically an illusion. It is the idea that we can perfectly reconstruct what is (or was) real with words. Both stories about the human crime as well as the demonic ritual that took place on Rokkenjima are equally "illusions". For example Black Battler does not only consist of "Evil Sorcerer Battler" theories, but also of simple "Battler = human-culprit" theories. The reality of Rokkenjima during those 2 days is made eternally inaccessible for us and therefore stays in an eternal vortex of being everything at the same time.

@AuraTwilight: I'd love to hear you get more "incoherent" :heh:
What you said so far sounds pretty logical to me and applies perfectly to Umineko.

[AuraTwilight]

I managed to stop myself before I got into my legitimate "incoherent" mode. I just noticed by vocabularity was changing and did a hardcore backpedal.

[Kealym]

Maybe black text is just really really blue and you can't tell.

I think there tends to be a misunderstanding about Blue Truth - it CAN be wrong, after all. That's why Will's solutions didn't need fancy colors - he had hit the mark, so there was no red that could refute them, anyways.

Blue truth is only effective so long as it hasn't been cut down by a Red truth. But ... regular old, non-colored words achieve the same thing, really. Making it blue just ... makes the postulatory process cooler.

[AuraTwilight]

And requires a response, which is why it was invented in the first place. If Beatrice wasn't being a contrarian asshole we'd of never needed it (or, rather, if the fanbase had trusted Ryukishi more, we wouldn't of needed it).

But Blue Truth works well as "the truth of humans" like Erika and Dlanor defined it. I like that use for it.

[ndqanh_vn]

Blue truth is only effective so long as it hasn't been cut down by a Red truth. But ... regular old, non-colored words achieve the same thing, really. Making it blue just ... makes the postulatory process cooler.


Hm, according to the rule the difference is that the rule is changed slightly by Gretel in EP4. Now the witch side has to respond to every statement, or maybe more correct, theories that the human side put forward. Before that the rule is really bad for human side, as the witch might win with only one illusion remained, while the human must debunked all the fantasy of the witch to win.



I think it makes the argurment flow actually easier to follow, as it clarify in a clearer maner which Red is used against which Blue (which facts are used against which theories) :heh:


I'm still not sure about what is the Golden Truth. Is it the view that is intended by the Game Master? That's why it not Red Truth (it's not objective), but it is closer to the core of the story than Red? (Yasu definitely did not use magic for Maria's candy). And therefore anybody understands the "heart" could use it. Wait, or only GM can use it? I think both are mentioned?

[AuraTwilight]

Anyone who qualifies as a Gamemaster can use it, therefore it's usable by those who understand the truth. It's essentially a fanfiction that doesn't contradict canon.

For instance, let's say I wrote a Forgery, and the premise was that Shannon and Kanon are separate people. This is not a valid Gold, because we all know it is false. Not that it's an interesting premise, but I can't claim it's the truth of Umineko.

Now say my premise was George did it. Does it contradict the facts? No. It's a perfectly legitimate theory that answers all the questions necessary. Is it the correct answer intended by Ryukishi, Battler, Beatrice, whoever?

Not necessarily. But prove me wrong.

Essentially, think of it as "A blue created by the Gamemaster."

[Kealym]

Hm, according to the rule the difference is that the rule is changed slightly by Gretel in EP4. Now the witch side has to respond to every statement, or maybe more correct, theories that the human side put forward. Before that the rule is really bad for human side, as the witch might win with only one illusion remained, while the human must debunked all the fantasy of the witch to win.

Except the witch ALREADY had to respond to every statement. Battler accepted the validity of Red Truth without much argument, in order to avoid a perpetual stalemate. However, it's still the witch's obligation to INTRODUCE her illusions, or ANY sort of thing Battler says is an acceptable truth.

For example, I think their very first argument with red was about the chapel door in EP2, to which Battler just says "there was a hidden door somewhere", which ended in Beato responding that the adults had enterred through the single front door, in red. If she DIDN'T respond, Battler's "hidden door" theory would have been totally acceptable, and her illusion would've been crushed. At that point, she plays pretty coy and gives him a false victory with a theory about switching keys around or something. Anyway, the point remains that until she gave more red to support herself, she would've lost. If Battler had said, in plain text, "The chapel door was never locked in the first place!!", she would have been utterly defeated.

...well, unless she decided to go "logic error" mode and make up some more constricting red on the fly. :heh: Anyway, the point remains that as far as a human victory is concerned, the Blue Truth doesn't accomplish anything that wasn't already being done.

However, I agree with AuraTwilight's sentiment that the Blue was very interesting and fitting, THEMATICALLY, and I enjoyed it alot. It also allowed for alot of badass meta-imagery, like Beato literally being struck with wedges of Blue truth, and was flashy and enjoyable. I guess I'm just saying that it wasn't strictly NECESSARY, and was a ploy by Ryukishi to squeeze some more tension out of things.

Like, a more legitimate version of Dlanor's blatant cheating for Erika during the EP6 wedding, or that whole nonsense Ange mentioned once about having to respond "within a minute".

[ndqanh_vn]

Except the witch ALREADY had to respond to every statement. Battler accepted the validity of Red Truth without much argument, in order to avoid a perpetual stalemate. However, it's still the witch's obligation to INTRODUCE her illusions, or ANY sort of thing Battler says is an acceptable truth.

I think the point is different. The witch COULD have given up on that point, but as long as there's one "illusion" that the human side could not answer, she still won (as there's something that cannot be done by human). She might lose everything elseo but just needed to defend only ONE illusion, it's enough. That means she's allowed to lose most of the small battles but still be able to claim victory at the end.

But the human side has to respond to EVERY illusion that she gave out. If he answered all but just ONE puzzle, it's still his lost as he could not answer EVERYTHING by human means. Even if it's only one point, it is still magic. So he has to win every small battles to claim victory.

Well, if it is an actual game, I think it is pretty unfair. :heh:

Now say my premise was George did it. Does it contradict the facts? No. It's a perfectly legitimate theory that answers all the questions necessary. Is it the correct answer intended by Ryukishi, Battler, Beatrice, whoever?

I actually likes the Geogre theory. He's too shady that it is hard to imagine he was innocent. But it is full of problem. I bet if it is the truth, Ange will say something like "Hell that bitch's son was the killer! And she kept repeating to me he's so awesome and shit!"

[Kealym]

But the human side has to respond to EVERY illusion that she gave out. If he answered all but just ONE puzzle, it's still his lost as he could not answer EVERYTHING by human means. Even if it's only one point, it is still magic. So he has to win every small battles to claim victory.

Yes, I think we're in agreement that Battler would need to answer EVERYTHING, but that's still the case whether he says everything in blue or not. He can answer everything in regular-coloured text, too, and not be any worse off. Either way he still has to solve every riddle, and either way the witch can decide to accept a false answer as a legitimate one. :-/

[Jan-Poo]

Illusion and reality ?
Rokkenjima is fictional.
Magic is fictional.
In many fictions magic is real.
In Umineko Rokkenjima is real.
In reality they are only fiction.

No fictions are "more real" then others, wether they make sense or not.
Yes the more I think about it, the more this sounds likely. In Umineko the real "definition" of magic is "fiction".


But let us not forget how the characters in the metaworld are called by canon of the narrator:

幻想の住人

In other words "illusion dwellers", which implies the world they belong to is an illusion.

The question in umineko is not whether the metaworld is "real" or an "illusion", it is outright stated that it is an illusion. The question is whether this illusion is still a form of existence or not and how much an illusion can influence the real world.

[haguruma]

But let us not forget how the characters in the metaworld are called by canon of the narrator:

幻想の住人

In other words "illusion dwellers", which implies the world they belong to is an illusion.
Though I'd argue that the implication the author was getting at is much closer to this term:

幻想文学

Gensoubungaku is a term that is not all that easy to equate with a genre or literary trope in Western theory. It is most often translated as Fantasy literature, but also encompasses fables, legends and myths, basically everything that deals with the super- or preternatural. It basically goes back to the greek and latin terminology and thus today Gensoubungaku can be everything from epic poems like the Odyssey, religious texts like the Bible, to modern stuff like Edgar Allan Poe and postmodern Magic Realism....or yes, also Mystery literature that does not commit to a fully rational explanation.

So I'd argue that it is much more reasonable (especially in the light of how much Ryûkishi made this a meta-textual discussion with all the name and term drops) to understand this term as "Inhabitants of the Fantastic".

[GreyZone]

But the human side has to respond to EVERY illusion that she gave out. If he answered all but just ONE puzzle, it's still his lost as he could not answer EVERYTHING by human means. Even if it's only one point, it is still magic. So he has to win every small battles to claim victory.

Well, if it is an actual game, I think it is pretty unfair. :heh

Yes, but on the other hand, if Battler finds out the truth himself, then Beato cannot do much. The only thing Beato can do is to to delude Battler from the truth, but all in all, after the preperation part, her active part is done and then she has to react to Battler's moves and can only hope that it works out.


Also regarding the blue truth: There is a huge difference to before. If I understood it right, then after Battler uses a (legitimate) blue truth, Beato has only 2 options:

1. She responds immidietly in red.
2. She responds in red at "endgame".

After all the reason for the blue truth to be introduced was, so that Beato couldn't just destroy a theory at any time she sees fit. Now she has to decide whether she crushes the blue truth from the beginning, or if she wants to let it be till endgame.

[Kealym]

Also regarding the blue truth: There is a huge difference to before. If I understood it right, then after Battler uses a (legitimate) blue truth, Beato has only 2 options:

1. She responds immidietly in red.
2. She responds in red at "endgame".

Maybe this is where I'm misunderstanding?
Because that sounds like what she ALREADY had the choices of doing before the Blue was introduced. :eyebrow:

[Judoh]

Maybe this is where I'm misunderstanding?
Because that sounds like what she ALREADY had the choices of doing before the Blue was introduced. :eyebrow:

The difference is She doesn't have a choice when you make a blue truth. She has to respond to a blue truth by the end of the game or the blue truth is considered true by her silence. With White text she doesn't have to do that. There's many times in the first 3 games, where Battler made a theory in white text, and she said that she "refused to respond". Blue text was added to make the game more fair.

[GreyZone]

Didn't EP5 show is well? Thanks to the blue truth, the issues were either resolved immidietly, or at the trial. I am sure there never was a case where lambda out of nowhere returned to an older issue that was resolved already.

[UsagiTenpura]

But let us not forget how the characters in the metaworld are called by canon of the narrator:

幻想の住人

In other words "illusion dwellers", which implies the world they belong to is an illusion.

The question in umineko is not whether the metaworld is "real" or an "illusion", it is outright stated that it is an illusion. The question is whether this illusion is still a form of existence or not and how much an illusion can influence the real world.

Well my point is that these questions apply as much to meta-narrative characters as they do to board characters as they do to prime events, as far as I'm concerned.

If X is an illusion, it doesn't mean that Y is not.
Also there is absolutely no logic behind the idea that a fictional being who admits to be so is less real (or more fictional) then another who does not.

Didn't EP5 show is well? Thanks to the blue truth, the issues were either resolved immidietly, or at the trial. I am sure there never was a case where lambda out of nowhere returned to an older issue that was resolved already.
Arc 4 Ura ?

[Thunder Book]

Tch. Look at these fools. Believing Prime exists. Perhaps the Meta-World is the reality of things.

There never was a Rokkenjima. Can you find it on a map? Who are the Ushiromiyas, where is the evidence they ever existed? Can you attain it? Hah! You claim it is locked away in a box, filed on dusty police shelves in a universe you cannot see, cannot touch, cannot research.

There is a simple enough reason: It does not exist. It is not there. No one exists in it to provide you with that information. The information is a null value unto itself, unable to provide anything approaching useful data. The only "information" is information you generate to satisfy your own belief in a nonexistent truth.

This world of ideas, this world of speculation and arbitrary assignment of truth, is the only world that exists.

For the crime to have a human culprit, it is not necessary that a "human world" actually exist outside the theater of Rokkenjima. Rokkenjima exists suspended in an endless and featureless ocean; there is nowhere to escape to and nothing that can be done to change the parameters of this existence. Humans exist upon it but they did not arrive there and they did not leave there. There is no "there" but where they already exist.

If you were born with motive to kill, what difference would it make than if you had developed that motive through experience? If a man were born believing he was once a man named Ushiromiya Battler, and apprehending and creating the supposedly "lost" memories of the same, in the absence of any further proof it is indistinguishable whether any such man has ever truly existed in the first place. Perhaps every instance of experience is nothing more than the memories which dress your piece on the witch's board. Or perhaps you merely deign to play at times, when in truth you exist above and within it simultaneously.

Who are the goats? Who are the witches? What identities make up the Grand Senate of creators and observers? In the absence of any other evidence, what else can you conclude? It is you. And possibly me. Or perhaps I am just a manifestation of existential self-doubt you formulated to keep your life from becoming boring. One way or another, it makes no difference.

(So gotta write this forgery... after the other two I'm working on...)

How do I prove that I exist? Maybe I don't exist. /Vivi

But I certainly would read such a forgery if you ever got around to it. XD

*Mind blowing stuff on the nature of reality in Umineko*

I didn't completely understand everything you were saying here, but what I got out of it is that in your interpretation of Umineko, the Meta-World always exists, but the form Prime is in gives shape and context to the Meta-World's existence. And the Meta-World affects how us (The readers) view Prime, which affects the Meta World and so on and so forth.

Like I said earlier, it's certainly a very interesting idea, but I'm not quite sure what to make of Umineko as a whole with it in mind. I see how it fits on a thematic level, though.

[Jan-Poo]

Well my point is that these questions apply as much to meta-narrative characters as they do to board characters as they do to prime events, as far as I'm concerned.

If X is an illusion, it doesn't mean that Y is not.
Also there is absolutely no logic behind the idea that a fictional being who admits to be so is less real (or more fictional) then another who does not.


Well first: it's not a fictional being that admits to be an illusion, but the narration that says so. This is one of those cases where you can't really tell who is the narrator with certainty, I suppose you can speculate that it's Tohya or who knows who else, but you can tell for sure and at any rate it is a second party who makes this distinction.

Secondly since there is a narration that makes a distinction between "humans" and "dwellers of illusion" I argue that there is a logical basis to claim that the seconds are less real than the firsts. If you don't agree then you need to explain what's the narrative significance of this distinction in the narration. If it was meaningless the author wouldn't have written it.

It might not prove I'm right with absolute certainty, but I think it's wrong to claim it means nothing.

As for "If X is an illusion, it doesn't mean that Y is not."
Of course not, but if it is our premise that X an illusion then we are sure that "X" an illusion whereas we are not in the case of "Y", which amounts to a difference of at least 50%.

[Smeckledorf]

The difference is She doesn't have a choice when you make a blue truth. She has to respond to a blue truth by the end of the game or the blue truth is considered true by her silence. With White text she doesn't have to do that. There's many times in the first 3 games, where Battler made a theory in white text, and she said that she "refused to respond". Blue text was added to make the game more fair.

Well, it was to give Battler more hope. No matter which way you look at it, the game was a losing game for Beatrice. The longer the game went on, the more red truths she gave out, and the more trapped she would become.

[UsagiTenpura]

It's actually a case where "You are told X is an illusion" period. No other info.

But... still end up believing "there must be a Y and it must not be an illusion - and the illusion of X must not be too far from Y".

Can you see why I find that "useless" as Battler say, at least?
It's like you are forever courting a "demon".

[ndqanh_vn]

Well, it was to give Battler more hope. No matter which way you look at it, the game was a losing game for Beatrice. The longer the game went on, the more red truths she gave out, and the more trapped she would become.

Yes, but it is in the grand scheme, at an individual game level it is still pretty unfair for human side. The blue balanced the game out a bit.

And isn't Yasu/Beatrice's aim is always for Battler to remember? So if he remembers and know the truth (ep 5 infamous:"And...I understand") doesn't it mean she already win?



Still think that the gold truth is pretty much Deus Ex Machina at the end of EP5.
I still remember the end of Witch and Wooland, when Battle screem out in gold something along the like: "I'M THE FREAKING GAME MASTER SO WHAT I SAY IS TRUE. "

Isn't it really how you interpreted the Gold, Jan-Poo?



This is some seperate issue but I don't quite get the "for world peace" thing in Amakusa and Okonogi.
Is that because they're afraid that the truth about the Italian submarines is annouced? Honestly I don't think she could find the gold or find any trace for the submarine story, which could be true or not.
In the same vein, I don't get why Amasuka has to kill Ange, too. The only way Ange is not killed is for her to abandon the fortune. It is quite irony then that the guy who kept speaking about LOVE ends up killing her for money, so I never took that theory serious.

At the end of EP6, I thought there would be some conspiracy behind...

[GabrieliosP]

Tecnically yes, when Battler figured the truth at the end of EP5 Beato fulfilled her goal, but sadly for her Battler figured out after she was dead. Then there was the whole thing with Chick-Beatrice at EP6 representing the Kuwadorian Beato and etc.

[ndqanh_vn]

Tecnically yes, when Battler figured the truth at the end of EP5 Beato fulfilled her goal, but sadly for her Battler figured out after she was dead. Then there was the whole thing with Chick-Beatrice at EP6 representing the Kuwadorian Beato and etc.

Which is creepily an echo of the whole incest issue of Kinzo.


Seriously I think the old guy is forgiven too easily. Love or not be damned, even if I understand his motive, I still find his action unforgivable.

[Asuka0NK]

Shirakawa Go
Look into it, might be interesting if you didn't know about it.


Yeah I know about that place. What I mean't is the "actual" village doesn't exist like the disease and everything is all fictional which what makes it Hinimizawa.

[UsagiTenpura]

Still think that the gold truth is pretty much Deus Ex Machina at the end of EP5.

What happened is that the blue couldn't defeat the gold. That means that no matter how many theories arises about the truth that cannot be denied (even when supported by some level of red/facts), it cannot defeat belief/faith.

That seems pretty much fitting with the themes of Umineko so I take that scene as a way to present that idea to us as directly as possible. It also seems to suggest that either the truth is "really ugly" or "looks really ugly when you don't know it but really isn't".


This is some seperate issue but I don't quite get the "for world peace" thing in Amakusa and Okonogi.
Is that because they're afraid that the truth about the Italian submarines is annouced? Honestly I don't think she could find the gold or find any trace for the submarine story, which could be true or not.
In the same vein, I don't get why Amasuka has to kill Ange, too. The only way Ange is not killed is for her to abandon the fortune. It is quite irony then that the guy who kept speaking about LOVE ends up killing her for money, so I never took that theory serious.

At the end of EP6, I thought there would be some conspiracy behind...

Well the only thing I can think of...
Okonoki claimed to be surprised when told he was the one who had said "without love it cannot be said". Now we see him talk about "world peace". That could be a way to define his character to us. He's the kind of guy who'll say grandiose sensational things on the spot without thinking much about them but he's a crook.

The other alternative I can think of is that this was a sort of alternate ending akin to arc 8's "trick" answer.

[ndqanh_vn]

Well the only thing I can think of...
Okonoki claimed to be surprised when told he was the one who had said "without love it cannot be said". Now we see him talk about "world peace". That could be a way to define his character to us. He's the kind of guy who'll say grandiose sensational things on the spot without thinking much about them but he's a crook.

The other alternative I can think of is that this was a sort of alternate ending akin to arc 8's "trick" answer.


Nobody could trust that child-killing mook from Higurashi, no matter how often he said about "love".:heh:

Actually what I am trying to ask is how Ange going to be related to "world peace" here?

Or as you say, it's just Okonogi smoothing things over. Still weird for Amakusa to agree, if he's not a jerk. And if he is, it is even weirder that in the end, Okonogi and Amakusa got everything they want just as plan. Actually in every kind of ending for Ange, to Okonogi he still got all the money. Okay now maybe it's not such an important plot thread.

I remembered there is a Conspiracy theory or something like that about Okonogi planned to kill the whole Ushiromiya family when EP6 comming out...

[AuraTwilight]

I didn't completely understand everything you were saying here, but what I got out of it is that in your interpretation of Umineko, the Meta-World always exists, but the form Prime is in gives shape and context to the Meta-World's existence. And the Meta-World affects how us (The readers) view Prime, which affects the Meta World and so on and so forth.

Like I said earlier, it's certainly a very interesting idea, but I'm not quite sure what to make of Umineko as a whole with it in mind. I see how it fits on a thematic level, though.

In a nutshell, "Meta creates Prime" and "Prime creates Meta" are both factually true, without contradiction (or atleast without negation of each other). There is Truth, but Truth may be mutable. Perhaps the devil is in the details, and the devil is a shapeshifter.

Perhaps when Beatrice writes a Gameboard, she isn't creating a fictional story OR creating an alternate universe, but rewriting reality itself, which can then shape the Meta-World and thus effect Prime again.

Bernkastel writes about Kyrie being the culprit, which makes it true, which makes people suspect Battler culprit theory, which makes Black Battler exist, which creates a story ABOUT Black Battler, which makes it true, which makes people think about....which makes....which becomes true....which....

Only the unveiling of Truth that claims to be Absolute can break the cycle, but doing so could kill all the sentient beings constantly born through the process. The truth may be liberating, but it may also be destructive. Which world is more important to you, Ange? Make your choice.

Seriously I think the old guy is forgiven too easily. Love or not be damned, even if I understand his motive, I still find his action unforgivable.

In fairness to Kinzo, his remorse about what he did caused him to send his life down the shitter for something like 20 years, until the day he died. He didn't try to justify it; he didn't try to have his cake and eat it too, and he didn't try to move on with his life. He gave up everything in hopes of SOME sort of atonement, and when he finally found someone he felt he could give that atonement to, gave them literally everything he had to give them and still wanted to do more.

If you think he's not deserving of forgiveness, when he did everything he thought he could do, you...just might be kind of evil.


Actually what I am trying to ask is how Ange going to be related to "world peace" here?


What is Okonogi's world? The business world. Relationships between corporations and the resulting legal and economic complications Ange poses.

[haguruma]

Only the unveiling of Truth that claims to be Absolute can break the cycle, but doing so could kill all the sentient beings constantly born through the process. The truth may be liberating, but it may also be destructive. Which world is more important to you, Ange? Make your choice.
I would actually go so far as to side with BATTLER on this one and say that it is practically impossible to restore "PRIME" or a single reality to the past, especially to Rokkenjima. We would need the objective view of every possible event on Rokkenjima to actually do that or else it would forever stay in the cycle of being recreated continuously. We basically would need the Red Truth for that, and as he told Ange, humans have no access to that power.

Of course certain sentient beings are killed by the process of forming truth (be it the actual truth or just a convenient truth), but certain beings continue to exist. For example if culprit Battler were true, Black Battler could continue to exist as he is not solely dependent on the magical narrative like for example The 1000 Year Old Endless Witch Beatrice from EP1-5 is.
This is very well shown due to Kanon and Shannon. Let's assume we uncovered the truth of what actually happened in 1986, but the Kanon subplot had incidentally no relation to it whatsoever. Maybe this would lead to people just not questioning Kanon's existence in 1986 and thus he would continue to exist on Rokkenjima during that time from the perspective of the people in the future.

This actually leads me to an interesting idea about the Shannon and Kanon resurrection in EP3. Not only the original author has power over the existence of those sentient "beings of the fantastical realm", but everybody who contributes to the pool of "Rokkenjima stories and fabrications".
Basically the conviction of George and Jessica that the person they met was Shannon and Kanon respectively made them appear at that point because there was nothing disputing that point of view. Maybe, if we had questioned Beatrice about "that Shannon" or "that Kanon" she might have had to say:
"These are not the same Shannon and Kanon who died. That Shannon or Kanon can never be resurrected again."
(We actually have some hints of this in EP2 when Shannon says something along the lines, that she noticed too late how this Kanon was not actually Kanon.)

This is what I meant further above when I said that 幻想の住人 was closer in meaning to "Inhabitants of the Fantastical" than to "Illusion Dwellers", because they are less product of illusions but still dependent on believe and the creation of such a realm (which is fictional = fantastical).

The same thing is basically quintessential in historical studies. You have to be aware that everything you are dealing with is a reconstruction and get's more and more vague the less evidence you have. But even the evidence you have can be false, falsely read, falsely interpreted, anything.
The Queen Elizabeth I or Albert Einstein or even Adolf Hitler we talk about in history classes today is also to a great deal "fictional" in the way that they are recreated from evidence. Everything about them could change everyday, which basically would mean that the Elizabeth that existed in our 1576 would "die" and be replaced by a new (from over view more correct) Elizabeth.

If you think he's not deserving of forgiveness, when he did everything he thought he could do, you...just might be kind of evil.
I'd agree on that one.
He might have been a pretty terrible father, an egoistical whiner, an adulterer, maybe even a murderer and rapist, but he seemed to hate himself for every one of those things. The only thing that apparently made him happy for a short while was his time with Bice.
Even in the time with his daughter, whom he fashioned to be a ressurection of Bice, he seemed to be subconsciously unhappy...getting angry whenever she called him father (it was a little visible in the EP3 scene, but it really becomes apparent with BATTLER and Chick-Beato), locking her up, etc.

I wouldn't want to make excuses for him, he probably was a pretty faulty person all put together, but because we never actually got to hear many views on how he ACTUALLY treated (or thought of) his grandchildren, Battler's depiction in EP8 might be true as well.

[AuraTwilight]

And, and I can't stress this enough, HE TRIED TO REDEEM HIMSELF. He devoted the remains of his life to it.

But the only person who could absolve him of his actions is dead, and he didn't even have a hand in it. Even if he directly murdered her, he can't make up for it no matter how much he tries.

But...the same is true if you break a one of a kind vase, technically. The same is true if you're missing from your son's life for the first eight years of his life. No sin can TRULY be undone. It's impossible. You can only compensate for it.

Kinzo did his damnedest to compensate for it. If he could do more, he would have. Who the hell are any of us to deny him atonement purely because he can't do the impossible?

If we ignore the effort he did make, and judge him purely by the original sins he committed, then we are sending the message that the struggle to atone has no inherent value.

And I want no part of any system of ethics that doesn't acknowledge how beautiful such a struggle makes an otherwise broken man.

[haguruma]

And I want no part of any system of ethics that doesn't acknowledge how beautiful such a struggle makes an otherwise broken man.
Wonderfully said, couldn't agree more.

I remember how I actually teared up a little when I translated the line about Kinzô's fight with Rosa stemming from the fact that he threw a tantrum because he wanted to name Maria and had prepared "such a wonderful name" (whatever it was) for her.

Kinzô did try and he tried hard, so hard it drove him at least a little insane.
But imagine being in a house with 4 children from a possibly pretty loveless relationship, them growing older, reminding you every day how the time with the one person you loved slips further and further into obscurity. All the while you couldn't even talk about it, let alone openly mourn that loss.

It's actually also pretty sad to see how much alike he and Rosa were...and all she ever did was being afraid of him.

[AuraTwilight]

All of that is part of the reason why I like to think of EP8 Kinzo as being canon. He does seem like he WANTED to love his grandkids, and they're not pecking vultures like his children.

And the older ones especially would've been Lion's playmates, and I can imagine that running through his mind whenever he looks at them.

[ndqanh_vn]

Well, I think it went too much into personal judgment. But to me, even if I understand how a person suffers throughout his life that might have influenced what he did, the act is still something that have to be judged seperately.

And it's very personal. So I don't hope you agree with me here, because you might not view those things the same way at I am. The implied fact that he made a child out of Beatrice II crossed the line for me, because maybe in my opinion, it's pretty much a sin that is unforgivable, in any circustance or reason. So I hope that he did not. There is a possiblity that he did not.

That kind of personal moral sense did put me in quite a strong difficulity in reading EP7. Because whatever the author says or shows me, I just cannot forgive Kinzo. I cannot appreciate the love he gave to Beatrice II. And the whole thing echoes EP6 make me feel even more uncomfortable looking at Chick-Beato (it was already quite uncomfortable to me at the point of reading it the first time) . So it gets a lot in my enjoyment to the story .

[Uberzaki]

This is some seperate issue but I don't quite get the "for world peace" thing in Amakusa and Okonogi.
Is that because they're afraid that the truth about the Italian submarines is annouced? Honestly I don't think she could find the gold or find any trace for the submarine story, which could be true or not.
In the same vein, I don't get why Amasuka has to kill Ange, too. The only way Ange is not killed is for her to abandon the fortune. It is quite irony then that the guy who kept speaking about LOVE ends up killing her for money, so I never took that theory serious.

At the end of EP6, I thought there would be some conspiracy behind...

I personally doubt that Amakusa actually murdered Ange, for one thing, they seemed pretty close.

For a second thing, that scene where he talked to Okonogi and Okonogi accused him of going soft on her (I doubt they are in love though)? I believe its presence is to show that he may end up not killing her.

And finally, the scene where he snipes all of Kasumi's men was an opportunity for those men to kill her, he could have sniped them after they shot her. But he didn't. For all we know, Ange might have merely gone "missing" afterwards.

[UsagiTenpura]

All of that is part of the reason why I like to think of EP8 Kinzo as being canon. He does seem like he WANTED to love his grandkids, and they're not pecking vultures like his children.

And the older ones especially would've been Lion's playmates, and I can imagine that running through his mind whenever he looks at them.

Back in ep 1 Kinzo's reason for considering Battler unworthy of succession is that "he is a fool who left behind the name of the Ushiromiya" or something like that.
Considering Kinzo probably died before Battler's coming back being in the picture it sure make sense, but the point is that if this is all he dislikes about Battler he probably did love him.

[Jan-Poo]

Okonogi's plan was indeed for Amakusa to wait until they killed Ange and then snipe them.
The fact that they start dying before Ange is killed strongly suggests that Amakusa finally decided to save Ange.

It is quite probable that he's been looking at them the whole time and he waited because originally he actually wanted to stick with the plan. You can imagine what kind of thoughts went through his mind as he saw Kasumi and her men bully Ange.
I guess in the end he realized he couldn't stand that anymore and decided to kill them.

There is still the fact that what we can deduce from EP4 suggests that Kasumi still managed to shoot Ange and that's why she died. But it's unlikely that Amakusa's plan really involved killing everyone and then wait for Kasumi to kill Ange once she was alone. This would have been a pretty stupid plan as logic dictates that if someone knows he's been targeted by a sniper he'd think about his life first. It was a lot more rational to attack after Ange died if he really wanted them to kill her.

[haguruma]

There is still the fact that what we can deduce from EP4 suggests that Kasumi still managed to shoot Ange and that's why she died. But it's unlikely that Amakusa's plan really involved killing everyone and then wait for Kasumi to kill Ange once she was alone. This would have been a pretty stupid plan as logic dictates that if someone knows he's been targeted by a sniper he'd think about his life first. It was a lot more rational to attack after Ange died if he really wanted them to kill her.
Technically if we look at Ange's fate the same way we are presented to Battler's and Shkannon's, then Ushiromiya Ange died in 1998 is possible.

No matter what happens, if she get's lost at sea or is supposedly to be killed on Rokkenjima or abandons all her rights to Okonogi in exchange for a new identity. In 20XX when the epilogue takes place there is no mention of her being recognized as Ange. She is a famous author who writes tales featuring a main character that to readers probably looks just like a toy from the 80's. Even the coverage of her illness seems to draw no connection to the Ushiromiya name.

So technically even the story how she handed over all her money and rights at the corporation over the Okonogi could have been fiction. He gets it either way and Ushiromiya Ange is "discarded" either way.

[Jan-Poo]

I wasn't referring to the end scroll but rather to the fact that unlike with the goons nowhere it is said that Kasumi's bullet was deflected. This led to the speculation that Ange was killed then.

As usual with Umineko you can't be sure about a damn thing, since even when something it's outright stated you can still think it's a lie or that the words must be interpreted with an uncommon definition. But a possible hint that Ange was killed by Kasumi there in that scene exists, all I said is that this is "suggested".

[Wanderer]

So, why is it that Ange is referred to as "Ange-Beatrice" and "The Witch of Resurrection"? It's something I've kind of wondered about for a long time and I'd like to hear peoples' thoughts on it.

[Drifloon]

She's ANGE-Beatrice because she inherited the name from EVA-Beatrice. In EP8 it was implied that the handing down of the name Beatrice represented someone gaining control over the contents of the cat box (Ange presumably found Eva's diary and this gave her the choice of whether to open the box or let it remain closed).

She's 'The Witch of Resurrection' because her goal was to revive her family, and she also 'revived' Sakutaro for Maria. In EP8 she was said to be the Witch of Resurrection because she revived her hope of her family coming back despite the apparent certain evidence of their death (presumably obtained from the diary). You could also say that Yukari 'revived' Sakutaro with her fantasy series which made him a part of many people's worlds.

[UsagiTenpura]

I think becoming Beatrice sorta means becoming the main character, more or less.

Alternatively you could say that each Beatrice represents a different story. They are linked but at the same time not. That's actually my understanding of what most people call prime.

In Ange's world, Eva's world and Beatrice's worlds are also true. They are built atop of it.
In Eva's world, Beatrice's world is also true. It is built atop of it. However Ange's world isn't necessarily true of it.
In Beatrice's world, neither Ange nor Eva's world are necessarily true to it (after all in many arcs even after 3 Eva still dies and thus the future of Ange with her would also never occur).

Beatrice is more free then Eva or Ange in the sense that anything could really happen in her world.

As usual with Umineko you can't be sure about a damn thing, since even when something it's outright stated you can still think it's a lie or that the words must be interpreted with an uncommon definition. But a possible hint that Ange was killed by Kasumi there in that scene exists, all I said is that this is "suggested".

The magic scenes strongly suggests that arc 4 is a fiction as much as the gameboard. Doesn't have to have any relation with prime.

Even going with what we learn later, it seems the closest thing to the truth we've got is that Ange vanished after her suicide contemplation atop of a building. Hell she might never have travelled with Amakusa to begin with. We basically only ever heard of scenes of Ange that the "public" would never ever learn about. Isn't that weird? Sure she went to that private school, but no one will ever know what happened there. No one will ever know Eva's dying words to her. No one will ever know about the people she questioned supposedly in arc 4. No one would ever know she went to Rokkenjima, to that secret bank, travel with Amakusa, murdered people/was murdered, etc.
She is a sort of "celebrity" yet the only things we ever learn about her in Umineko are things that would be unverifiable for anyone living in prime.

For all we know she had a lot of fun at school and Eva truly believed she would be a worthy successor to the family once she died, for instance. Kasumi might even love her niece.
How would you know any of that, even if you lived in Prime?

[Jan-Poo]

The magic scenes strongly suggests that arc 4 is a fiction as much as the gameboard. Doesn't have to have any relation with prime.

You mean the 1998 scenes from EP4? In which way and which magic scenes strongly suggest that it was fiction?
Since in EP8 we have two different outcomes of a choice you can make, what if the one in EP4 is yet another "what if" scenario?

[AuraTwilight]

To be a Beatrice means to gain power from the denial of the Truth and the spinning of illusions. Even Ange is responsible for this, because her hopes caused her to deny the grim reality of the tragedy and hope beyond reasons that her family would all just roll up in a limo one day.

[Wanderer]

It's interesting to get these different perspectives. I've been inclined to think that being a witch/sorcerer means that you had power to shape "the truth" and that the title of Beatrice in particular means that you had the power to shape "the truth" of Rokkenjima, 1986 in particular. "Resurrection" definitely refers to Sakutarou (at least), and I agree that it points towards the Yukari ending. What's interesting is that the concept of resurrecting Sakutarou was introduced as early as EP4.

For all we know she had a lot of fun at school and Eva truly believed she would be a worthy successor to the family once she died, for instance. Kasumi might even love her niece.

Speaking of Kasumi, she should also have had to disappear from Prime around the same time as Ange in order for the 1998 EP narrative to fit.

You mean the 1998 scenes from EP4? In which way and which magic scenes strongly suggest that it was fiction?
Since in EP8 we have two different outcomes of a choice you can make, what if the one in EP4 is yet another "what if" scenario?

What's the difference between the story being a "what-if scenario" and being fiction?

[Jan-Poo]

What's the difference between the story being a "what-if scenario" and being fiction?

If it's a "what-if scenario", it's something that would have really happened if the "if" was true.

If it's fiction, it's something that someone imagines could have happened or could happen at best, and something that has absolutely no relation to reality at worst.

[AuraTwilight]

But all what-if scenarios are fiction, because by virtue of not having happened, they do not exist unless someone tells the what-if scenario.

[Kealym]

For all we know she had a lot of fun at school and Eva truly believed she would be a worthy successor to the family once she died, for instance. Kasumi might even love her niece.
How would you know any of that, even if you lived in Prime?
Well, I look at Ange's characterization as the same as everyone other humans. Sure, perhaps they COULD have been largely different sort of people in actuality, but I make the (admittedly somewhat baseless) assumption that Ryukishi portrayed the humans as they actually were, in their lives, for the MOST part.

Especially since a large part of Ange's EP4 narrative was Ryukishi basically providing information we would never get to see if we stayed focused on Rokkenjima, but was, in his eyes, relevant enough to still include for us.

At the very least, it'd be fairly easy to ask whether or not Ange was happy at school 'cause there were lots of people to just ask.


Speaking of Kasumi, she should also have had to disappear from Prime around the same time as Ange in order for the 1998 EP narrative to fit.
OH MAN, I never thought of that.
Yet another plot thread tossed to the winds. :heh:

[AuraTwilight]

Does it really matter what happened to Kasumi in the real world? No one treated the Gameboards any less legitimately when they killed off Eva in 1986. Why should she be any different?


I do like to think, however, that Ange did go to Rokkenjima, and did have her epiphany that awakened her love for Eva and her budding nature as a potential Bodhisattva. Whether by the Meta-World/Prime-World Continuity Shenanigans I posited, or whatever else.

[LyricalAura]

Speaking of Kasumi, she should also have had to disappear from Prime around the same time as Ange in order for the 1998 EP narrative to fit.

Did Kasumi ever personally see Ange before she got to Rokkenjima? In the Yukari ending, maybe Amakusa just led her on a wild goose chase while pretending to be with Ange and then wiped out her entire group once they'd been lured to the island.

[Jan-Poo]

But all what-if scenarios are fiction, because by virtue of not having happened, they do not exist unless someone tells the what-if scenario.

Not really. A fiction is not a fiction in its own universe. Let's take your standard eroge. You can say it's fiction, but you can only say that in this world. Inside the universe the novel describes what happens is reality not fiction. Now in a standard eroge there are many "routes" you can follow depending on the action you make. You can consider these routes the same of many "what-if" scenarios. While there is often what people call a "true route", it is not mandatory and normally it is implicit that every route is as much "real" as the others.

Conversely if inside this eroge one of the characters writes a story and this story gets somehow briefly narrated, that story is fiction even inside the universe described in the novel and it is by no means to be considered the same as an alternate route.

[UsagiTenpura]

@ Aura, Wanderer
Thanks for clarifying things for me.


@ Jan
Magic scenes happening outside of fiction makes no sense whatsoever. Even if this is a sort of figurative auto-biography, it remains a fiction.

You know I've been thinking more about what I said and I might be realizing something:

Wether it is in Ange's world or in the Rokkenjima of 1998, every time we see anything, it is part of a catbox. The event itself is often provable but not it's content, they're catboxes.

The only event I can think of that wasn't catbox is when Ikuko "revealed" Eva's diary.
That much probably had enough press to not be a catbox, however the content of Eva's diary (or rather, wether or not it is Eva's diary at all) were never revealed.

Still this seems to be probably one of the basic rule of Umineko.
It sounds as if Umineko sorta does begin as a sort of "Prime" where there are "holes" where no one can ever know the truth and "writer(s)" is writing a story in these holes and then remove the Prime parts. I guess it's like "mystery is to prime what fantasy is to mystery".


Edit : I'd also like to mention that even if any of us ended up in "prime", we potentially could never actually verify the existence of Rokkenjima. It's not on any maps. No ships ever goes there. We know the general area but it's likely we could never find the given island. It's landmaks are either destroyed or hidden to the point that sibblings who searched them all their lives couldn't find it. So you probably would fail at it too.

This could be the result of a sort of overlook of Ryuukishi, but that is sorta stranger then anything else. It's a demon's proof of course, you couldn't prove that "Rokkenjima doesn't exist" but it remains sorta big that you can't even prove that the setting for the entire story ever existed even if you were in that world.
You could attain reasonable proof, such as much press release and stuff, but to put it in Umineko's term, I'm not talking about white, blue or gold, but rather red proof.

[UsagiTenpura]

Speaking of Kasumi, she should also have had to disappear from Prime around the same time as Ange in order for the 1998 EP narrative to fit
Maybe not. I'll sorta go too far but this seems to be Ryuukishi's thing with the Battler breaking red death thing...

The scene we saw in arc 4 was actually a figurative event. What really happened is that Ange understood Kasumi and managed to bring her to her senses. The "Kasumi" that we are presented in arc 4, which is mostly an equivalent of Rosa's "dark witch", died as a result of that. Afterward Ange vanished because she changed her name to be a Sumadera and continued to live with Kasumi as a happy family - seperating herself from her past by giving up on her family name, much like her brother did before her.

Edit: Uh sorry about double post.

[Kealym]

Does it really matter what happened to Kasumi in the real world? No one treated the Gameboards any less legitimately when they killed off Eva in 1986. Why should she be any different?
Mm? The introduction of "a future where Eva is alive" changed how almost everybody viewed the gameboards. And while EP4's 1986 may be some kind of fiction / what-if-scenario, I wouldn't call it a gameboard. I guess it isn't that important in the grand scheme of things ... but some kind of statement on her life/death status would put EP4's misadventures on a much firmer ground, as far as understanding it. Also, presumably the Sumadera's had been planning to abduct Ange as soon as Eva fell ill.

I dunno, it just would've been some cool enlightening information, like if Natsuhi's family was at all grieved with her dead-ness or something.


I do like to think, however, that Ange did go to Rokkenjima, and did have her epiphany that awakened her love for Eva and her budding nature as a potential Bodhisattva. Whether by the Meta-World/Prime-World Continuity Shenanigans I posited, or whatever else.
Agreed. It rings a bit better than her deciding on suicide by building jump, then taking a good long look down and goin' "Well fuck that. Gonna go back in there and be happy now."


The only event I can think of that wasn't catbox is when Ikuko "revealed" Eva's diary.
That much probably had enough press to not be a catbox, however the content of Eva's diary (or rather, wether or not it is Eva's diary at all) were never revealed.

How are you defining a catbox, here?

[AuraTwilight]

Not really. A fiction is not a fiction in its own universe. Let's take your standard eroge. You can say it's fiction, but you can only say that in this world. Inside the universe the novel describes what happens is reality not fiction. Now in a standard eroge there are many "routes" you can follow depending on the action you make. You can consider these routes the same of many "what-if" scenarios. While there is often what people call a "true route", it is not mandatory and normally it is implicit that every route is as much "real" as the others.

Conversely if inside this eroge one of the characters writes a story and this story gets somehow briefly narrated, that story is fiction even inside the universe described in the novel and it is by no means to be considered the same as an alternate route.

You're right. The thing is, Umineko doesn't take this approach. The way it's narrative structure was set up, either one thing is true, or EVERYTHING is true. There is nothing to indicate that Ange's 1998 can branch into alternate continuities while the Gameboards are still just "fictions".

I'd also like to mention that even if any of us ended up in "prime", we potentially could never actually verify the existence of Rokkenjima. It's not on any maps. No ships ever goes there. We know the general area but it's likely we could never find the given island.

Uh...yes it is, and yes they do. Ange has a map of Rokkenjima and Kawabata went there several times. Boats STOPPED going there, but they used to go there literally every day to take Jessica to and from school. If we ended up in "Prime" we could find it verily easily. It only seems to be a 40 minute boatride from Nijima, so that gives us a pretty small area to look in.

[UsagiTenpura]

How are you defining a catbox, here?

Hmm the typical Umineko catbox.
Like 1986 Ushiromiya family conference.
We cannot know it's content and cannot know the exact details of the results.

Uh...yes it is, and yes they do. Ange has a map of Rokkenjima and Kawabata went there several times. Boats STOPPED going there, but they used to go there literally every day to take Jessica to and from school. If we ended up in "Prime" we could find it verily easily. It only seems to be a 40 minute boatride from Nijima, so that gives us a pretty small area to look in.

Well if could time travel back into pre-Rokkenjima disaster prime yeah.
But they said as early as arc 1 that Rokkenjima is not on any maps and that there isn't any maps of it. I didn't remember arc 4 contradicted that (I still don't, where exactly does Ange says she has a map to/of Rokkenjima), but now I'm not sure which I should trust.
I really doubt Kawabata would give any of us a ride to Rokkenjima.
The point is even if you did land on Rokkenjima you might not be able to verify that it is actually Rokkenjima.

[AuraTwilight]

If I remember, there's a line about it in EP4. The anime also has Ange pull out a map.


I'm just gonna guess, by the way, that you can guess it's Rokkenjima by the big fuck-off crater and the government sectioning off telling trespassers to go home.

[Jan-Poo]

You're right. The thing is, Umineko doesn't take this approach. The way it's narrative structure was set up, either one thing is true, or EVERYTHING is true. There is nothing to indicate that Ange's 1998 can branch into alternate continuities while the Gameboards are still just "fictions".

Well I'm not so sure about that, in the beginning I expected Umineko to be consistent and only use one way or another, but after EP8 I wouldn't bet my money on it.

The main problem I see here is that the fictions of the gameboards are justified. Not only they represent actual fictional stories that were found in prime, but there is a meaning behind them, a reason for them to have been written.

What would be the reason and the justification behind what we've been shown regarding Ange in 1998, if it wasn't real?



Magic scenes happening outside of fiction makes no sense whatsoever. Even if this is a sort of figurative auto-biography, it remains a fiction.

You haven't seen "fight club"? Or "dancer in the dark"? Or... "higurashi"? Just because you see things through the eyes of a characters that mixes illusions with reality it doesn't mean that it's all fake or that it's all fiction. You don't need a fictional interpretation at all. And in fact practically nobody did before EP6 made it blatantly obvious.
It isn't true that it doesn't make sense, it does in some cases.


Edit : I'd also like to mention that even if any of us ended up in "prime", we potentially could never actually verify the existence of Rokkenjima. It's not on any maps. No ships ever goes there. We know the general area but it's likely we could never find the given island. It's landmaks are either destroyed or hidden to the point that sibblings who searched them all their lives couldn't find it. So you probably would fail at it too.

If you mean that no one could possibly verify its existence it's not true. We know that Erika went near it with a pleasure boat. You just need one yourself, I'm sure the coordinates of this island were leaked and at any rate it was said it was about 30 mins from Niijima. If one really wanted, he could find it.

However if you mean that the common person couldn't verify its existence, well... the mere fact that the authorities and official channels claim it exists isn't what people would normally consider proof enough of something existing?

I could say the same for any crime reported by newspapers. What proof do you have that those crimes happened except for what newspapers tell you? Of course you could check if you wanted... but you don't.


About the map issue: there are maps of Rokkenjima, but Rokkenjima can't be found in maps. I don't think the maps of Rokkenjima are sold to the public... except maybe they were after the incident, you know... but before that, there was absolutely no market for those.
This issue however would become moot as soon as Google earth was released in the prime universe of Umineko.

[UsagiTenpura]

If I remember, there's a line about it in EP4. The anime also has Ange pull out a map.


I'm just gonna guess, by the way, that you can guess it's Rokkenjima by the big fuck-off crater and the government sectioning off telling trespassers to go home.

You might be right, I'm not going to ever watch the anime so I wouldn't know.


You haven't seen "fight club"? Or "dancer in the dark"? Or... "higurashi"? Just because you see things through the eyes of a characters that mixes illusions with reality it doesn't mean that it's all fake or that it's all fiction.
It isn't true that it doesn't make sense, it does in some cases.
Wait are you suggesting that every magic scene in Umineko are the same as the Hinamizawa disease? I thought these theories were flushed pretty much straighfowardly by 07/LD in arc 5.




If you mean that no one could possibly verify its existence it's not true. We know that Erika went near it with a pleasure boat. You just need one yourself, I'm sure the coordinates of this island were leaked and at any rate it was said it was about 30 mins from Niijima. If one really wanted, he could find it.

However if you mean that the common person couldn't verify its existence, well... the mere fact that the authorities and official channels claim it exists isn't what people would normally consider proof enough of something existing?

I could say the same for any crime reported by newspapers. What proof do you have that those crimes happened except for what newspapers tell you? Of course you could check if you wanted... but you don't.


About the map issue: there are maps of Rokkenjima, but Rokkenjima can't be found in maps.
This issue however would become moot as soon as Google earth was released in the prime universe of Umineko.

Convenient how you are sure they are leaked. I'm sure they weren't? Well I'm not but I "could be" as much as you are sure of the opposite.
I agree that reasonable proof of it existing is there and I mentioned so earlier. If you'd be living in Prime, it'd be folly to doubt it's existence. I then mentioned I'm talking about red truth.
Tho I disagree about the press' factuality. I've been reading six newspapper daily lately and compared their "factual info" on various topics. It's incredible how much discrepency can occur. I'm not simply talking about the pov the journalist is giving to his article, I'm talking about statistics and things that should normally be facts that lies outside of the realm of interpretation.
Not to fall into witch-hunter like conspiracy theories, but journalists also tend not to verify their "facts" very much.

But I disagree about how easy of access it is : if it was it would've been full of witch hunters all the time.
You're fighting me using arguments that normally would be a given and make sense, but those same kind of arguments denied Shkanon among things - things that aren't actually part of the story but that we tend to assume. Like for one how can you know that Google Earth was released on prime universe of Umineko?

[AuraTwilight]

What would be the reason and the justification behind what we've been shown regarding Ange in 1998, if it wasn't real?

Witch Hunters notice Ange Ushiromiya went missing in 1998. FANFICTION TIME <3

[haguruma]

Witch Hunters notice Ange Ushiromiya went missing in 1998. FANFICTION TIME <3
Pretty much that, I would agree.

Though if there's one thing that should be considered when talking about Umineko's universe, it's that even fictions rely on their credibility, probability and possibility or else they can simply be denied.
Remember how Beatrice had to say only one sentence and Eva-Beatrice practically vanished into thin air? I think what that was meant to show us was not that everything in the fantasy-realm is non-existent, but just like AT and me have been saying, that they exist in a dual-system where they depend on each other.

I hope I don't go too theoretical again, but you could actually say it's a triple structure. Reality in which people live highly depends on the interaction between what they are told and what they can observe. That is the Real and the Symbolic, or in Umineko's case "the real world of Prime proposed by us" and "the fictions through which we learn about this world". Through those we create the Imaginary space, that is our proposed truth of Umineko, and we communicate it by using the Symbolic layer from the story.

What I mean by that is, that it doesn't matter if Ange 1998 on Rokkenjima happend or if she simply gave up her fortune while standing on the rooftop, because it doesn't destroy the reality at which we end up. this basically tells us, that both have equal rights to be true and concerning the story they can be considered to be both true...not at the same time, but as long as we arrive at the same "Yukari" it has both equal rights to be considered the truth.

And that is what EP8 keeps on telling us, doesn't it?
Isn't it better to accept the best possible event of what happened in the past over the worst? I'm not saying that I agree on all levels of what the implications of such a worldview would be. But the basic idea of "we shouldn't always think the worst" is not that bad.
It's the same as with the Kinzô catbox. You can condemn him for the sins he's done or you can use the implications made and create a Kinzô who was conflicting but loving.

-----
Oh...and concerning Google Earth: I'd assume they wouldn't simply let you take a stroll around the island via Google Earth. I haven't checked so much private property on Google Earth, but I'd assume they would blur pretty much everything by the reason of privacy.

[Wanderer]

If it's a "what-if scenario", it's something that would have really happened if the "if" was true.

If it's fiction, it's something that someone imagines could have happened or could happen at best, and something that has absolutely no relation to reality at worst.

Hm... I think there's a lot of crossover here. I think that if it's fiction, written fiction, that exists in Prime then it's in a sense more real because then it has power to influence Prime. To go similarly cyclical to AuraTwilight, the fiction influences Prime which influences new fiction, which influences Prime again, and so on. And any fiction that depicts events shrouded in a cat-box is a legitimate what-if scenario, at least until the cat-box is opened.

Funny that one of the difficulties with Umineko is that we probably know more about what's inside the cat-box than what's outside. It's kind of a weird, inverted viewpoint.

The scene we saw in arc 4 was actually a figurative event. What really happened is that Ange understood Kasumi and managed to bring her to her senses. The "Kasumi" that we are presented in arc 4, which is mostly an equivalent of Rosa's "dark witch", died as a result of that. Afterward Ange vanished because she changed her name to be a Sumadera and continued to live with Kasumi as a happy family - seperating herself from her past by giving up on her family name, much like her brother did before her.

Well, the point I'm making is that if the 1998 EP4 narrative was a cat-box that existed as a fictionally written story in Prime, Kasumi's status should be independently verifiable and thus a way to falsify that fiction. Of course if Kasumi did disappear at that time for some reason it could still work. Actually, it wouldn't be such a surprise if Okonogi was responsible for that, even if Kasumi never chased Ange to Rokkenjima.

Witch Hunters notice Ange Ushiromiya went missing in 1998. FANFICTION TIME <3

Haha, but I think the question is about why RK07 would have us read Witch Hunter fanfiction.

[AuraTwilight]

Because it tells us stuff that's important, and it's relevant to Meta-Ange's character arc regardless of what this may or may not mean for "Prime Ange".

Also, it's Ryukishi. The guy who can write 17 pages on why tea is brown. I don't really question why he puts shit in his novels anymore.

[UsagiTenpura]

outside[/B]. It's kind of a weird, inverted viewpoint. More like we know absolutely nothing about the outside, but we've been allowed to make some non-random guesses about it (at least not entirely random).


Well, the point I'm making is that if the 1998 EP4 narrative was a cat-box that existed as a fictionally written story in Prime, Kasumi's status should be independently verifiable and thus a way to falsify that fiction. Of course if Kasumi did disappear at that time for some reason it could still work. Actually, it wouldn't be such a surprise if Okonogi was responsible for that, even if Kasumi never chased Ange to Rokkenjima.
Death (in Umineko) is a subjective word with a lot of subjective value. As thus the life/death status of anyone cannot be used to credit or discredit anything. If the story was meant to be figurative, it'd be useless to discredit it based on literal facts.
"This is not the literal truth" is beaten down by "I never said it'd be the literal truth".

I don't think even expecting a single literal element in the entirety of Umineko is a very good idea. We're basically reading a bible-sized poem about love.


Oh and uh I feel like I've been repeating that over and over, but Ange's role is to be a parallel to our own relation to the story on one side, and on the other side she was meant to parallel Yasu's life. That Ange's life shares so much with Yasu's life in term of traumatic events suggest to me that either or both are actually entirely fictional. You could overall say that if you mix up Battler and Beatrice, you get Ange. That's just way too convenient for the author to be the actual truth.

Edit : Ending up expanding on this. Maria in arc 7 denies the events between her and Ange mentioned by Ange in arc 4. Isn't there a chance Maria from arc 7 is right? I guess I'm proposing this :
Both the Ange story of 1998 and Battler/Beatrice's story of 1986 share a lot of elements, especially figuratively and, if both are fictions, in the purpose they have for the author. Both actually points out to the same one truth and this is where "prime" really lies. If anything that's not an approach I think anyone had yet. It could be worth a try to see the results.

[Jan-Poo]

Wait are you suggesting that every magic scene in Umineko are the same as the Hinamizawa disease? I thought these theories were flushed pretty much straighfowardly by 07/LD in arc 5.

No... I didn't just mention Higurashi... the other two have nothing to do with "hinamizawa" syndrome. And I didn't say that all the magic scenes in Umineko are like that. I'm just saying that the imaginary things Ange sees in EP4 do not necessarily imply that everything in the narration of Ange in 1998 is fake. And I cited other stories where this is definitely true.
Beside the fact that Ange is the only one who sees all these strange things is consistent with the idea that she just fantasies about them or that they are illusions, and this is in stark contrast with magic scenes in the gameboards where when a demon appears everyone sees it.

That's why defining Ange's illusions as "magic scenes" doesn't make sense to me. They're not, they're completely different.

Convenient how you are sure they are leaked. I'm sure they weren't? Well I'm not but I "could be" as much as you are sure of the opposite.

Let's just say it's a possibility, and why not? there's nothing that would make me think someone would go all the trouble to shut everyone up about the existence of that island. There are probably hundreds of different people that have been there.
There are in the first place all the people who built the various Mansions and since the guesthouse was built about 30 years after the rest I suppose that's even two differen teams.
Then you have all the various persons that are mentioned going to Krauss to propose their investments, and there have been probably some that have talked to Kinzo before.
Then you have the people that Krauss hired to investigate the island.
The you have all the fukuin servants that for a 30 years have been working there and none of them stayed for more than 3 years.
Then of course there's Kawabata.

If that island existed it'd be practically impossible to keep its existence and location secret. Beside nothing suggests that Jessica or Rosa ever made a mystery of where they lived with their classmates.


Tho I disagree about the press' factuality. I've been reading six newspapper daily lately and compared their "factual info" on various topics. It's incredible how much discrepency can occur. I'm not simply talking about the pov the journalist is giving to his article, I'm talking about statistics and things that should normally be facts that lies outside of the realm of interpretation.
Not to fall into witch-hunter like conspiracy theories, but journalists also tend not to verify their "facts" very much.

Well I agree with that. It's appalling how imprecise or outright wrong some articles you find in nation-wide distributed newespaper are. But at least I think that they can't be imprecise enough to claim the existence of a whole island if it doesn't exist. Not for a prolonged time. Unless there is conspiracy in action. But my stance with conspiracy theorists is that they're always the ones that must provide the proof that they are right. Because there's absolutely nothing you can't explain or that you cannot question by postulating a conspiracy theory. It's like magic.

But I disagree about how easy of access it is : if it was it would've been full of witch hunters all the time.
You're fighting me using arguments that normally would be a given and make sense, but those same kind of arguments denied Shkanon among things - things that aren't actually part of the story but that we tend to assume. Like for one how can you know that Google Earth was released on prime universe of Umineko?

No I can't, but normally in a story, unless it's outright stated it's an alternate universe, you assume that the world is the same as ours with the only exception of the story being told. If it wasn't so, then why would people even talk about anachronisms? Anyway the many historical events that have been narrated match with those of our world and the technological advancement is also consistent. There is no mention of internet in 1986, but it is mentioned in 1998 and beyond. So why not google earth?

Witch Hunters notice Ange Ushiromiya went missing in 1998. FANFICTION TIME <3

I guess I can't really debate if your stance is that ryuukishi wrote something for absolutely no reason such in the brown tea you mentioned earlier.
But let's just say that I strongly doubt that's the case with Ange's story in Ep4. I think it's meant to be significant. besides Ryuukishi in an interview implied you're supposed to use informations that come from there to understand that a huge explosion occurred.


Oh...and concerning Google Earth: I'd assume they wouldn't simply let you take a stroll around the island via Google Earth. I haven't checked so much private property on Google Earth, but I'd assume they would blur pretty much everything by the reason of privacy.

Like nothing is blurred at all? Your house is there for everyone to see it.
But there is indeed a chance Rokkenjima couldn't be seen on google earth, not for privacy reasons but because only populated areas are scanned at high definition.



Oh and uh I feel like I've been repeating that over and over, but Ange's role is to be a parallel to our own relation to the story

Except Ange there finds things that we could never find simply by using our reasonings. The parallelism doesn't really work because Ange doesn't really reason about the gameboards she had read, she approaches the problem from a perspective we never tried before, it's a perspective we didn't even know existing before. She looks for actual proofs in the real world.
And about all those closed rooms we've been reasoning up to that point... she couldn't care less.

[haguruma]

Like nothing is blurred at all? Your house is there for everyone to see it.
But there is indeed a chance Rokkenjima couldn't be seen on google earth, not for privacy reasons but because only populated areas are scanned at high definition.
Don't you have the option over in your country to get your place blurred out?
Of course only in personal view, but the satellite view brings you only so close most of the time, that it doesn't actually give you a really informative view anyway.

Also, Google Maps, including the satellite/aerial view, was only launched in 2005, 19 years after the Rokkenjima incident and pictures are very likely to be from at least 15 years after it.
It's not unlikely that Kuwadorian was already overgrown with vegetation during the time of the last conference, considering it went "out of business" in the late 60's. That means by the 2000's it will probably be nothing more than a slightly visible, less densely overgrown space (if the garden really was as spacious as the anime made us believe)...parts of the Kuwadorian ruin are very likely invisible from even several hundred feet in the air.
And the only thing that'd actually be visible of the mansion's site would be a crater which over a century later would have also widely been reclaimed by the wild.

You would probably find an island in 2005 using Google Earth, but you'd have no way to prove what stood where and what could have happened there without closer investigation.

[RandomAvatarFan]

Wait... but this is only 20-30 years after 1986.... not an entire century. How do we know that the Lizzie Bordon house was where a gruesome murder took place after a century?

[haguruma]

Wait... but this is only 20-30 years after 1986.... not an entire century. How do we know that the Lizzie Bordon house was where a gruesome murder took place after a century?
Argh, decade, not century :heh:
But there is a pretty big difference between a murder case committed in the middle of a town, with not only active media coverage of the case, but the suspect continuing to live at the crime scene. Still the murder remains debated even today, though we have much closer access to it than people of Prime would have to Rokkenjima.

[AuraTwilight]

I guess I can't really debate if your stance is that ryuukishi wrote something for absolutely no reason such in the brown tea you mentioned earlier.
But let's just say that I strongly doubt that's the case with Ange's story in Ep4. I think it's meant to be significant. besides Ryuukishi in an interview implied you're supposed to use informations that come from there to understand that a huge explosion occurred.

I'm not disagreeing with this at all. The information is useful and possibly important.

That doesn't mean any of that 1998 narrative actually happened, though. Not the slightest bit.

[UsagiTenpura]

No... I didn't just mention Higurashi... the other two have nothing to do with "hinamizawa" syndrome. And I didn't say that all the magic scenes in Umineko are like that. I'm just saying that the imaginary things Ange sees in EP4 do not necessarily imply that everything in the narration of Ange in 1998 is fake. And I cited other stories where this is definitely true.
Beside the fact that Ange is the only one who sees all these strange things is consistent with the idea that she just fantasies about them or that they are illusions, and this is in stark contrast with magic scenes in the gameboards where when a demon appears everyone sees it.
Hmm well I can't go with this, sorry. I didn't mean necessarily Hinamizawa discease, but basically the same sort of situation where someone's perception is genuinely altered. I just basically think that redefining magic scenes's logic to suit your specific need of your specific theory/belief doesn't go very well.
It's again, a bit too convenient.

Right in arc 1, btw, Battler is with Maria/Kanon/Kumasawa and they tell him that Beatrice is right there but he cannot see her.
What's so different?

~ everything else Bah I don't really think this is getting anywhere. Let's just say from my POV you are preventing yourself from approaching Umineko in a different light. I suppose if you are already satisfied with the story as it is, it makes a lot of sense to be that way.
However if you aren't, well maybe that's why.


I'm not disagreeing with this at all. The information is useful and possibly important.

That doesn't mean any of that 1998 narrative actually happened, though. Not the slightest bit.

Just to support this further, that religious myth are not necessarily based on reality at all doesn't change that they can have a lot of value. Discarding the essence of a message based on realism things is pretty much missing the point to me. Sadly in that specific case it's that proponents and opponents both treat something figurative as literal.

[haguruma]

I just basically think that redefining magic scenes's logic to suit your specific need of your specific theory/belief doesn't go very well.
It's again, a bit too convenient.
I would partly agree with thus phrase, especially because it overvaluates certain scenes and utterances on the gameboard. But I need to go further, because I don't agree with you completely either.

I would go so far as to say, that there is not a single scene where the existence of the fantasy-plane is actually acknowledged at a 100% by any character until Chiru, and even then it only happens in asides that are clearly constructed as being "at the sidelines of the gameboard" (like characters switching in and out of roles). Such scenes are for example Erika halting her detective character to make her role clear to Battler or Jessica in the tea-room recognizing her existence as a piece on a gameboard.

During the consistent stories (which are told to us as stories and not discussed like in the analysis that is Chiru) there is always ambivalence about what characters actually witness. Take for example the scene of EP4's first twilight:
Yes, Battler is told that the people witnessed demons from hell being summoned by Kinzô and we witnessed it, but there is nothing indicating that it is actually what the characters witnessed because they did not comment on it directly.

Of course it is possible to compare the "rational narrative + magical narrative" structure of Umineko to Higurashi's "reality vs. paranoia-delusion narrative" on a technical level and what it tries to achieve. Both depend on the reader growing aware of the small narrative inconsistencies left at the seams where the two layers were fused together.
The difference is that, while Higurashi's two-layer structure has an actual impact on the plot of the one narrative reality we are told, Umineko's two layer structure happens parallel to each other and we are positioned on the upper stratum (the meta world) together with other characters to investigate it from outside.

This leads me to the conclusion that it doesn't matter within Umineko whether something is "real" on one of the layers within the narrative, because we are looking at it from above and have this multiple access to everything.

If we had to draw a comparison to Higurashi it would be, that unlike there where we were only slightly less knowledgeable than Rika and only slightly more than her friends, in Umineko we are a "spectating witch" from the very beginning.
Assume the future of the Kai anime version of the Devil's Script where a certain person survived or Yoigoshi had these characters becoming authors and proposing explanations to the Hinamizawa disaster by writing the tales we witnessed. To the world of Tsumihoroboshi for example the events of Onikakushi would be ficticious, as would be the world of Matsuribayashi, but it wouldn't make it less true for us, because we witnessed it along with the characters.

What this also entails in the very end is that: In a world where magic exists (and as we should already know there is nothing like a 0 chance) the parents would have witnessed Ushiromiya Kinzô summoning the demons from hell to rip his family apart. BUT, in a world where magic does not exist it was probably simply Yasu entering the room, tossing the Winchester rifles on the table and everyone going batshit crazy out of fear to end up being killed.
What role we actually have in all this is what AT already said: Deny the magical characters entrance into our world and thus killing them more and more or allowing them to exist. This extends to the message that we, as people over the future possess the power over the reality (not the real events, simply what we perceive as our past reality) of the past.

[Jan-Poo]

Don't you have the option over in your country to get your place blurred out?
Of course only in personal view, but the satellite view brings you only so close most of the time, that it doesn't actually give you a really informative view anyway.

[...]

You would probably find an island in 2005 using Google Earth, but you'd have no way to prove what stood where and what could have happened there without closer investigation.

I thought the issue was just confirming the very existence of the island, not what's inside it.
Beside, if there's really a 1km wide crater it should be quite visible from above, and I think that'd be pretty significative.

As for going all the trouble to make google earth blur Rokkenjima, who exactly would bother do that several years after the incident and why?



Hmm well I can't go with this, sorry. I didn't mean necessarily Hinamizawa discease, but basically the same sort of situation where someone's perception is genuinely altered. I just basically think that redefining magic scenes's logic to suit your specific need of your specific theory/belief doesn't go very well.
It's again, a bit too convenient.

It's not to suit my "need" it's part of my theories regarding the narrative system in Umineko. I "redefined" the interpretation of the gameboards back at the time of EP5 when the author theory still wasn't accepted. I don't tnink there's anything wrong with that, it's just the way I see it.


Right in arc 1, btw, Battler is with Maria/Kanon/Kumasawa and they tell him that Beatrice is right there but he cannot see her.
What's so different?

I never considered that a magic scene... and that's the first time I hear anyone considering it as such...


Bah I don't really think this is getting anywhere. Let's just say from my POV you are preventing yourself from approaching Umineko in a different light. I suppose if you are already satisfied with the story as it is, it makes a lot of sense to be that way.
However if you aren't, well maybe that's why.

It's not a habit of mine to interpret things the way I "like" them, just the way I think it's more rational and consistent with the informations I possess.

[Drifloon]

Hm, there seems to be some kind of 'battle' going on between the Shkanontrice supporters and the KnownNoMore supporters on /seacats/ right now.

Though it just seems to be the same repeated arguments over the logic error and the EP3 first twilight that always seem to happen.

[Xenon_gun]

Hm, there seems to be some kind of 'battle' going on between the Shkanontrice supporters and the KnownNoMore supporters on /seacats/ right now.

Though it just seems to be the same repeated arguments over the logic error and the EP3 first twilight that always seem to happen.

Yeah. The biggest problem for any side is that there is no opponent that knows the real truth, or a solution. If they manage to reach something logical, props to them, but I doubt they will.

I mean, we have a number of variant theories just stemming from Shkanontrice, any of which might or might not be correct. Let's not forget George culprit or Battler culprit or of course the candy theory. Then, there's also the Gohda EP2 circus theory (courtesy of Renall).

[Thunder Book]

What's the Ghoda circus theory? It sounds amazing based on the name.

[Xenon_gun]

Well, it's not a long theory, just a random shot at a solution for Episode 2. Here's the link:

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=2477596#post2477596

[jjblue1]

As for Requiem... I think it was pretty obviously written by Touya but not released. From the first scenes of Requiem:

BATTLER: "......This is... the unique tale I made for you."
This tale will be shut up with you in your coffin, for all eternity
So, no one will be able to read it except for you, there in your coffin.
[...]
"......Between just me and her, ...just the two of us, this is the one and only certain truth."

In the manga the tale placed in Beato's grave is Dawn, not Requiem.
It's true that the manga might differ in terms of canon with the novel, but Ryukishi said he would give hints through it and Dawn too was written by Battler. That's true Ikuko let Ange read it but it's in a meta scene. And Will read Battler's tale as he commented it was the funnier (or something like that).

I'll say in order to write Requiem, Yasu's help is needed so either Yasu is Ikuko and she helped Toya write it or, before dying, Yasu passed a huge amount of info on her life to Battler... Otherwise Requiem is a speculation on Yasu's life way huger than Ep 4 might be on Ange's life.

And isn't Yasu/Beatrice's aim is always for Battler to remember? So if he remembers and know the truth (ep 5 infamous:"And...I understand") doesn't it mean she already win?

Yes but she's... acting childishly about it. She's sort of like a kid who wants a certain toy as a present but doesn't want to tell her parents which toy it is and challenge them to guess it, thinking that their guessing right will prove they love her.

There's the risk they won't guess right and the fact they failed will bring her to a 'Pyrrhic victory'. Yes, they couldn't guess what she wanted but hey, she didn't got what she wanted... though to her getting it merely by telling them what she wants would be meaningless as well as it would prove nothing.

Though some people in a love relation do the same saying to their loved one things like: 'if you truly loved me you would know what I want/think right now' so maybe it fits.

This is some seperate issue but I don't quite get the "for world peace" thing in Amakusa and Okonogi.
Is that because they're afraid that the truth about the Italian submarines is annouced? Honestly I don't think she could find the gold or find any trace for the submarine story, which could be true or not.
In the same vein, I don't get why Amasuka has to kill Ange, too. The only way Ange is not killed is for her to abandon the fortune. It is quite irony then that the guy who kept speaking about LOVE ends up killing her for money, so I never took that theory serious.


I thought it was some sort of excuse supposed to mean they didn't want people to argue over the company ownership. If I'm not wrong it was said in Ep 8 that when Ange inherited the business people weren't exactly pleased of this and of how she was handling things. It might seem mean but they likely feared for the company to fail and they didn't want to end up in a situation like the one in which the siblings were in 1986.
So getting rid of Ange and the Sumadera who are 'a threat' to the Ushiromiya group would 'bring peace' among the Ushiromiya group.

Though this is only my interpretation.

So, why is it that Ange is referred to as "Ange-Beatrice" and "The Witch of Resurrection"? It's something I've kind of wondered about for a long time and I'd like to hear peoples' thoughts on it.

I thought one got the title of Beatrice by inheriting the gold/headship... this is what happened to Yasu, who in Ep 7 says something about having become Beatrice for real once she found the gold, Eva, who became Eva-Beatrice when she found the gold and became its owner and Ange, who inherited everything from Eva... though the thing might be tied to the gameboard as well. Beato controls it, Eva Beatrice takes her place in game 3 and Ange Beatrice can use magic in Beato's golden land in which only her magic should work... though AngeBeatrice can't hand to Battler the solution to Beato's gameboard and Eva Beatrice was 'beaten' by Beato so maybe the gameboard is more Beato's domain than the other Beatrice's.

On a sidenote... someone told me that when Battler became the golden wizard he also became a 'Beatrice' but I can't find it in the text... someone can confirm/deny this?

Edit : Ending up expanding on this. Maria in arc 7 denies the events between her and Ange mentioned by Ange in arc 4. Isn't there a chance Maria from arc 7 is right? I guess I'm proposing this :

Wait, where? I can't remember...

Hm, there seems to be some kind of 'battle' going on between the Shkanontrice supporters and the KnownNoMore supporters on /seacats/ right now.

Though it just seems to be the same repeated arguments over the logic error and the EP3 first twilight that always seem to happen.

There's to say KnowNoMore got a huge fanbase if he has supporters who're willing to fight the official theory...



And sorry for replying only now to some old threads but I just got back from Rome and there I didn't have the pc... ^_^;;;

[Thunder Book]

Well, it's not a long theory, just a random shot at a solution for Episode 2. Here's the link:

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=2477596#post2477596

Aw, I expected Evil Circus Master Ghoda, commanding animals to perform serial murders. :(

[Kiltias]

I'm probably the only one who thinks this but how is the possibility that there is no real killer?

What I'm trying to go at is that is this:
There is more than 1 Killer.

For those who want an explanation:
First Twilight:
Victims: Kyrie,Rudolph,Gohda,Rosa,Shannon,Krauss.
I take it as symbolic that Gohda was killed here.The only Servant employed by Krauss thus doesn't belong to the group of Kinzo's most trustworthy servants.
That being Shannon,Kanon,Genji and Kumasawa.
However consider, what if Shannon was real.
George proposing to her seems like a good time for her to get out of the plan of the murder.Ultimately getting killed herself.
See fun point is:
It wasn't Nanjo but Hideyoshi who comfirmed her body.
I can see Nanjo lying but not Hideyoshi, what reason would he have?

Second Twilight:
Victims: Eva and Hideyoshi.
I note that it was Kanon and Genji who first arrived knocking on the door but noone answered.
At that moment the "seal" or "symbol" wasn't on the door.
However it only appeared after Kanon returned with Kumasawa with Genji's whereabouts unknown.
This can be simply done, consider what if noone was in when knocking?
Eva and Hideyoshi arrived when Kanon was gone however Genji awaited them and painted the seal on the door.As for the chain.
I declare no chain was set and Kanon using the Bolt Cutter was an illusion.
But for all we know it might have been indeed set and the murder actually happened after Kanon broke in.
Thus what we saw, was merely a perceptional lie created by Ryukishi as it was basically from the view of the 3.

Next up:
Victim: Kinzo
Considering he is dead before the start of all games.The one who "killed" him can only be someone who knew he is dead.
Natsuhi,Genji,Kumasawa and Nanjo.
Again:
Kumasawa was with Kanon.

Followed by:
Victim: Kanon
Everyone had an Alibi nor was it suicide and the one who declared him dead was Nanjo who shifted him to another room.
Faked and that easily.Evidence followed in the next twilights.

6-8:
Victims:
Genji,Kumasawa,Nanjo.
See the pattern?
Nanjo - involved in the first twilight.
Genji and Kumasawa - Second
Kumasawa - "Found" Kinzo with Kanon with Genji and Nanjo being one of the few knowing of Kinzos death.
Nanjo: Declared Kanon dead.
And who is best to know the dial to Kinzos study than a servant.
Regarding the murder of the 3:
If it happened during the call that would have been heard.
And after the call Battler and co. hurried to the room.
For the killer there was little to no time to have done the murderes and simply vanish without being seen.And I am sure the 3 did fight back to some extent.
Which makes me believe the murders happened before Maria was on the phone.
However I grant the possibility of an surprise attack.

And Natsuhis dead can be explained that Kanon simply shot the gun a tad faster.

Yet, keep note of Maria.Important for the next one

However as for the second game, I cannot think else except it was someone else.
1st Twilight:
Victims: Krauss,Natsuhi,Eva,Hideyoshi,Rudolf,Kyrie.
Absolute highly symbolic.
Tell me why would the killer of all things target the siblings of Rosa?
And even more suspicious:
Maria had the key and Rosa took the envelope and the chapel had Happy Halloween Maria written on it.

However, as of here, things change.

2nd Twilight:
Victim: Jessica
Killed by Kanon who once again faked his death,
A keypoint is this:
Kanon fell once again to the stake of Wrath.

4-6 Twilight:
Victims: George,Shannon and Gohda.
It should have been easy to do this when Kanon was alive.All he had to do was Gohda to open the door."Help me...."
Especially with the aid of the other servants.

Again who are last:
Nanjo and Kumasawa.
Killed at the servant room by a crazed Kanon.
Again his sudden resurrection and playing with his wound could have meant he never died and faked it again.And again he ambushed Kumasawa and Nanjo but was chased away by Genji who didn't say a thing as he was involved himself.

Game 3:
Again a nice scenario:
Unlike finishing last this time the servants are first.
But keypoint:
Together again.
Kinzo was a "victim" but he was dead since before the games thus one of them who had knowledge about this is involved again.
Can be easily explain, another fake murder.
This time Kanon and Shannon working together thus breaking the locked door cycle.However I am sure one betrayed the other.

2nd Twilight:
Victims: Maria and Rosa.
In Red:
They were killed by other people.
Not just a person but people.
And really I don't see Shannon or Kanon even together being so dominant over the two that Maria didn't even had a chance to run.

Next:
4-6th:
Victims:
Rudolph,Kyrie and Hideyoshi.
Keypoint here:
Kyrie thought the food was unncessary and shouldn't leave the guesthouse yet she did for an unexplained reason.
I propose this:
Maria and Rosa were not killed by the Kanon and Shannon due to the lack of the stakes as in this game there are only 5 stakes used.
So their murder had nothing to do with Beatrice.
Infact I propose Kyrie and Rudolph to be their killers.
As for the reason, the money and it explains why Kyrie suddenly wanted to leave.
And yes for those wondering, I am saying Rosa and Kyries murder took place at a different time.
That being:
The 3 went to the Guesthouse.
While Hideyoshi was kept buse they went for Rosa and Maria.
Followed by the murder of Hideyoshi.
As for the lack of stakes:
Symbolism again:
Kyrie and Rudolph taking down Leviathan and Belphegor symbolized that they took down the ritual.
Incidentally:
This is where Kanon and Shannon come in and are the ones who killed Kyrie and Rudolph and

7th and 8th:
Killed Krauss and Natsuhi.

I'm currently working at the next game.

However I my reasoning is this:
The epitaph about the witch and the gold resulted in people going haywire.
However regarding Maria:
Remember how Eva and Rosa found the gold?
I got my doubts regarding Rosa that she solved the riddle by herself.
Infact I'm saying Maria solved it and told her mommy.I just got my doubts that Rosa who could only solve 1 Wolf and Sheep Riddle solved the Epitaph while Maria has effortlessly solved them all.
Unknown to the little girl she made herself the new head and the others found out.
Chapel Murder:
Rosa took them out to ensure the head position and the money remains with her.The happy halloween writing was meant as congratulation towards her.Only Rosa was left and the opposition for the position taken down.
The other game:
Kyrie and Rudolph decided to to get the money themselves planning to kill and silence everyone ultimately succeeding in killing Rosa and maria.

And at the same time the Servants began their uprising.
Remember how we saw Rosa and Maria running from the furniture goats?
I propose they were actually running away from the servants in that game.

With that said it's like this:
Servants - Killer
Rosa - Killer
Kyrie and Rudolph - Killers

All depending on the game.
Now add that up in a single scenario.
Kyrie and Rudolph did rampage.
Rosa intended to take out her siblings.
The servants had their uprising.

At least for now as I still work on the others.

[AuraTwilight]

...That violates so many reds I literally don't know where to start. Holy shit.

[Kiltias]

...That violates so many reds I literally don't know where to start. Holy shit.

I read through every single red truth up until I stopped writing.Nothing violates the red.If anything you misinterpret it as they are a the truth yet still vague statements as they can have multiple explanations.

[LyricalAura]

Your theory has several places where people who were pronounced dead with red truth continue moving around and doing things afterwards.

2nd Twilight:
Victim: Jessica
Killed by Kanon who once again faked his death,
A keypoint is this:
Kanon fell once again to the stake of Wrath.

4-6 Twilight:
Victims: George,Shannon and Gohda.
It should have been easy to do this when Kanon was alive.All he had to do was Gohda to open the door."Help me...."
Especially with the aid of the other servants.

At the second twilight, Kanon was killed in Jessica's room.

4-6th:
Victims:
Rudolph,Kyrie and Hideyoshi.
Keypoint here:
Kyrie thought the food was unncessary and shouldn't leave the guesthouse yet she did for an unexplained reason.
I propose this:
Maria and Rosa were not killed by the Kanon and Shannon due to the lack of the stakes as in this game there are only 5 stakes used.
So their murder had nothing to do with Beatrice.
Infact I propose Kyrie and Rudolph to be their killers.
As for the reason, the money and it explains why Kyrie suddenly wanted to leave.
And yes for those wondering, I am saying Rosa and Kyries murder took place at a different time.
That being:
The 3 went to the Guesthouse.
While Hideyoshi was kept buse they went for Rosa and Maria.
Followed by the murder of Hideyoshi.
As for the lack of stakes:
Symbolism again:
Kyrie and Rudolph taking down Leviathan and Belphegor symbolized that they took down the ritual.
Incidentally:
This is where Kanon and Shannon come in and are the ones who killed Kyrie and Rudolph and

As of a little after the first twilight, Shannon and Kanon were dead. They died instantly. Also, it looks like you're saying that Maria and Rosa were killed while Hideyoshi was at the mansion, but they were dead before Hideyoshi's group left the guesthouse.

In your theory, why do Kyrie and Rudolf believe they can get money by killing everyone?

[Wanderer]

Aside from not accounting for the Kanon, Shannon is dead reds, 4-6 Twilight:
Victims: George,Shannon and Gohda.
It should have been easy to do this when Kanon was alive.All he had to do was Gohda to open the door."Help me...."
Especially with the aid of the other servants.

You're forgetting that the difficulty with closed rooms isn't just getting into them, but also getting out them while keeping them closed. You could say that Kanon was hiding in it (which you didn't), but even then it really doesn't jive well with Will's explanation.

Again who are last:
Nanjo and Kumasawa.
Killed at the servant room by a crazed Kanon.
Again his sudden resurrection and playing with his wound could have meant he never died and faked it again.And again he ambushed Kumasawa and Nanjo but was chased away by Genji who didn't say a thing as he was involved himself.

Again, closed room. How did the corpses leave the servants' room?

This time Kanon and Shannon working together thus breaking the locked door cycle.However I am sure one betrayed the other.

Why would they even need to work together? All it takes is one faker or planted key from an outsider and the whole system is destroyed.

[Thunder Book]

So I was looking over the Ep 8 thread, and someone mentioned that in the Riddle Games, George and Jessica give you a single puzzle worth two medals. There are 16 riddles in that game, but 17 medals total.

So was this supposed to be yet another ShKanon hint (Not really sure how it would help anyone who didn't already feel that that was the answer), or just a coincidence?

[Jan-Poo]

It would have worked better if it was Kanon and Shannon giving a single riddle. I'm not sure if that can really be seen as a shkanon hint, not like it would change anything anyway.

[AuraTwilight]

Obviously it was a hint towards Jessiceorge.

Where's the prove that they're really separate people, anyway?

I don't know, guys, we've already got precedent for Yasu martyring other people's sins on her own shoulders. What if she's covering up for her lover's split personality bullshit?

[Jan-Poo]

How could I have missed that?! Kanon and Shannon are just the different personalities that Yasu had to create to be with Jessiceorge and keep loving her/him despite the constant switches!

And that scene in EP4 where you see George and Jessica killing each other clearly symbolises an internal battle between the two personalities over the control of their bodies which concludes in a suicide! In fact those who actually fight against each other in EP6 are indeed George and Jessica! But Yasu since s\he loves her\him so much rather took that burden on herself! It's perfect!

[Thunder Book]

It would have worked better if it was Kanon and Shannon giving a single riddle. I'm not sure if that can really be seen as a shkanon hint, not like it would change anything anyway.

Yeah, I guess it really wouldn't change anything.

Honestly the whole random quiz game is something that really bothers me the more I think about it in retrospect. It doesn't seem to function as anything really other than a cheap way to resolve plot elements from the other Episodes (And only if you answer the riddle correctly at that). This kind of extends to Bern's game too. They were cool or whatever at the time, but really a large chunk of Episode 8's first half feels like a bit of a waste.

[Kealym]

Oh, why's that, Thunder Book?

It seemed to me that Ryu was just trying to patch up some plot things, i.e "Oh btw, I switched dem babies 'round. So ... yeah."

[Thunder Book]

I guess I just kind of feel like that if a plot thread is just going to be resolved in a way like that, then it really makes me wonder why it's in the story to begin with.

Like really, did the Rudolf baby thing matter too much in the grand scheme of things?

[AuraTwilight]

It didn't. But it was a plot twist he brought up in EP4 to shake things up, and he felt like it should be wrapped up so it didn't distract from what was really important.

[Kealym]

Sorry to be out of left field, but you guys recall Battler's revival near the end of End, yeah? When he became territory lord and took Erika to stabby-town?

Well, Erika only "lost" that game in the sense that her theory became one of multiple possible theories - a draw, as stated. Her grief there was mostly that she had to change her original theory at all, since she couldn't use Kinzo to remove the First Twilight corpses. ... ... any idea what the heck revision she had made at that point? The only thing we're told about it is that everyone seemed to agree it was "shabby".

I also just noticed that Dlanor's announcement about having to prove Kinzo's corpse was in blue, so it was essentially a blue truth stating This blue truth can't be refuted by a red truth!, the logical answer to which is probably lolwut are you even saying?

[Drifloon]

I thought the puzzle section was the most beautiful part of EP8. A way of saying goodbye to all the characters. Their little scenes after each puzzle made me really realise how much I'd grown to love all of them.

I always wondered what Erika's theory about the corpses was too. It was like Ryukishi couldn't think of one or something, so he just didn't include it.

[AuraTwilight]

any idea what the heck revision she had made at that point? The only thing we're told about it is that everyone seemed to agree it was "shabby".

It's never stated.

[Jan-Poo]

There's not much that can be said about Erika's revision, I doubt Ryuukishi even thought about that since there was no real need for it.

I guess it would have been something on the lines of what Battler used at the end of EP4, but not as bad as "small bombs".

[Thunder Book]

I think even Bern says that Erika's theory is ridiculous, but technically possible. So really whatever it was doesn't matter.

[Renall]

Actually, you can't verify the event happened, even if you're standing in the shattered crater on an island you know for a fact to be Rokkenjima.

Can you prove a person who left no trace of his or her existence ever actually existed? Photographs can be faked. Memories can be mistaken. People can lie.

So do you choose to doubt or choose to believe? I wonder if, philosophically, it actually makes any particular difference. Whether it is more rational to believe or doubt information is going to be based solely on whether most information is true or false. Most people would argue that the overwhelming majority of information is true and therefore shouldn't be doubted, while cynics or believers in an illusory reality would believe most, if not all information is false.

Of course we run up against another wrinkle, which is that most information may be true but most information that comes from people is false. In other words, you can believe Rokkenjima existed by visiting the place, but you can't necessarily believe everyone the message bottle says was present on the island that day actually was because people are deceptive by nature. Unless of course you believe they aren't.

Ultimately, however, the question is impossible to resolve, because you have to start trusting something somewhere in order to form a foundation for trusting anything, and if you choose to doubt everything as false your position, while technically consistent, is meaningless.

So the question becomes, what degree of truth, based on trustworthy information, is satisfactory? With respect to Prime, we have no idea, because almost no information is available and practically all of it comes from corruptible sources. The best physical evidence seen is what Ange is able to gather in ep4. And as I've said in the past, I don't even know if I buy the validity of Maria's diary either.And that is what EP8 keeps on telling us, doesn't it?
Isn't it better to accept the best possible event of what happened in the past over the worst? I'm not saying that I agree on all levels of what the implications of such a worldview would be. But the basic idea of "we shouldn't always think the worst" is not that bad.
It's the same as with the Kinzô catbox. You can condemn him for the sins he's done or you can use the implications made and create a Kinzô who was conflicting but loving.This is interesting, and I've been tinkering with it (to little effect, unfortunately, as I lack a lot of time to write), but maybe not?

Let's look at it this way: In the absence of knowledge of the Truth, is it better to assume the best or the worst? This kind of goes back to what I was previously talking about (sort of) regarding doubting versus believing. Although it's a bit different in that it's more of a moral question than an ontological one.

The people on Rokkenjima are dead (we presume; if nothing else they want to be seen that way by everyone). Therefore nothing we can say or do actually changes the external facts. Nobody can be arrested and dead people can't be offended by our characterization of them. This is true even of the people affected directly; Nanjo's son, for example, is no better off assuming the best or assuming the worst about his father's behavior simply because he can't know and therefore could always doubt in one direction or the other that his conclusion is acceptable and correct. Nagging doubt and slim hope may as well be the same to the extent they imbalance us from the comfort of certainty.

That presence of uncertainty means any fact can be willfully interpreted by any individual, whether positively or negatively. One can believe Kinzo was a doting grandfather or a reclusive unpleasant rapist. It doesn't change (1) what Kinzo actually was, (2) what we actually can say we know about what Kinzo actually was.

Common decency might tell us to assume the best because we'd want other people to think of us pleasantly in the same situation. But it's possible, based on facts we cannot know, that at least one of these people was a murderer! Common decency shouldn't extend so far as to view a criminal in the most positive light possible, to the extent it erases and denies their crime. It's possible there was no crime, but if there was, whitewashing it is wrong.

Really, the only morally defensible position if faced with the inability to learn any definitive information is to shrug and say "I don't know." Assuming the best about the individuals who died could be as much of a disservice to them as assuming the worst. If we can know the Truth, we should strive to find it. If we cannot, it's probably arrogant and erroneous to presume the answer was either the absolute best possible or the absolute worst possible. That's simply implausible.Did Kasumi ever personally see Ange before she got to Rokkenjima? In the Yukari ending, maybe Amakusa just led her on a wild goose chase while pretending to be with Ange and then wiped out her entire group once they'd been lured to the island.She was clearly killed by the Smoke Monster. Rokkenjima was a secret Dharma Institute facility and Kinzo had to keep resetting the clock every day or the laboratories underneath the island would explode. He passed this task to Yasu, but something prevented her from making her daily reset on Oct. 5 1986.

[Asuka0NK]

Okay you know what screw Shannon and Kanon being the same person and screw Jessica and George being the same person because we all know that the truth is that they are all the same person. ShKanJessGeo Theory. Also my other theory is that Yasu never had anything wrong with her. What happened was that as a baby Yasu was born with several physical disabilites and so the mother threw the baby in the ocean hoping it died but through several miracles that baby washed up on Rokkenjima which was an old abandoned mansion that use to belong to a very wealthy family. Soon after washing up there Yasu was saved by a flock of seagulls who raised her and she even named the seagulls. She named the biggest leader one Kinzo and all the others after other people. Eventually she fell into insanity and began to personifie the seagulls as other humans and because she lacked breasts she gave them all huge breasts. She wrote murder mysteries about her seagull friends but once she realized it was impossible for the seagulls to read she shipped them off under the name Maria because she really loved the Maria Seagull and wanted to be like her. Yasu then found a cave and a clock. She turned the switch and the island exploded because she thought the switch turned the clock on. There now everything makes sense. Also Tohya is an escaped mental patient whose soul is linked to that of the seagull Yasu had a crush on.

[AuraTwilight]

Everyone is Battler. He never had a family, he's just some crazy hobo hopped up on Ikuko's really dubious medical skills.

"You don't need a hospital, I'll just bandage you up and grab some random shit out of the cupboard. You're fiiiine."

[RandomAvatarFan]

Okay you know what screw Shannon and Kanon being the same person and screw Jessica and George being the same person because we all know that the truth is that they are all the same person. ShKanJessGeo Theory. Also my other theory is that Yasu never had anything wrong with her. What happened was that as a baby Yasu was born with several physical disabilites and so the mother threw the baby in the ocean hoping it died but through several miracles that baby washed up on Rokkenjima which was an old abandoned mansion that use to belong to a very wealthy family. Soon after washing up there Yasu was saved by a flock of seagulls who raised her and she even named the seagulls. She named the biggest leader one Kinzo and all the others after other people. Eventually she fell into insanity and began to personifie the seagulls as other humans and because she lacked breasts she gave them all huge breasts. She wrote murder mysteries about her seagull friends but once she realized it was impossible for the seagulls to read she shipped them off under the name Maria because she really loved the Maria Seagull and wanted to be like her. Yasu then found a cave and a clock. She turned the switch and the island exploded because she thought the switch turned the clock on. There now everything makes sense. Also Tohya is an escaped mental patient whose soul is linked to that of the seagull Yasu had a crush on.

Oh, I get it. And the whole thing was that Yasu couldn't decide what to name one of her seagulls. That's what's happening in EP6

[Tammuz]

*just finished episode 8*

what is this i don't even ._.

[AuraTwilight]

Please elaborate?

[Tammuz]

Give me some time to find an appropriate means of articulating my confusion, before I elaborate on it.

[AuraTwilight]

No problem, we're patient. :3

[Thunder Book]

You wouldn't be the first to have a "wut" reaction to Episode 8, Tammuz. XD

[Wanderer]

~~~~~

It doesn't matter how "right" you are, or how logically sound you are. Lectures on morality won't help Ange cope.

Give me some time to find an appropriate means of articulating my confusion, before I elaborate on it.

Oh boy! I love articulated confusion!

[Drifloon]

My first reaction to playing Episode 8 was that it was absolutely beautiful and I couldn't have asked for a better ending.

It's a shame I seem to be in the minority.

[Uberzaki]

Tanmuz, I would direct you to the game impressions thread.

I starting to think that this thread and the aforementioned should be merged in some way, although since that wouldn't really work, or at least lock one of them.

[Tammuz]

Oh, don't get me wrong- it was beautiful. I don't quite understand it, but you don't necessarily have to understand something for it to be beautiful. Anyway, after getting some sleep and re-reading the last couple of parts, I think I got it now... Probably.

[Kealym]

Tanmuz, keep in mind, too, that most of us here have our own way of viewing certain things. That is to say, there's a lot of room for you to reach your own conclusions about ... well, a lot of stuff. :heh:

[AuraTwilight]

Yea, it's a heavily symbolic ending. If there's anything you're still curious about, feel free to list it.

[Renall]

It doesn't matter how "right" you are, or how logically sound you are. Lectures on morality won't help Ange cope."Ange is not the only person in the world" should have become my catchphrase by this point.

Then again, what if she is?

[Thunder Book]

Not only is Ange the true culprit of Rokkenjimma, but she killed all of humanity as well!

[GreyZone]

No, I am alive. If you are not a bot, then you are alive too :P

About EP8: All I can say is that the moment Battler punched Bern with lastendconductor.ogg running in the background was priceless. This also brings up the question: WHY was Battler able to do that? Until then it was an established thing that they (Bern and Lambda) would just disappear into mist and the attack would be a miss. And just moments ago they fought each other by using universes as weapons... So? Any ideas?

[Jan-Poo]

No, I am alive. If you are not a bot, then you are alive too :P

How do you know we aren't all bots?
Jokes apart, when you are a person like Ange who can see and talk to a little girl that is supposed to have died a ten years before, and who can see and talk to witch of miracles, and who can see and talk to seven demons and an anthropomorphization of a lion plush while even playing "shiratori" with them... how could you have the complete certainty that every other person around you that you consider "real" actually is?


About EP8: All I can say is that the moment Battler punched Bern with lastendconductor.ogg running in the background was priceless. This also brings up the question: WHY was Battler able to do that? Until then it was an established thing that they (Bern and Lambda) would just disappear into mist and the attack would be a miss. And just moments ago they fought each other by using universes as weapons... So? Any ideas?

It's all in Ange's mind. Battler becomes stronger because Ange starts to believe more in him than in Bernkastel. Belief is power in the metaworld and so even Ange could make the witch of miracles transform into a harmless kitten simply by willing it.

[RandomAvatarFan]

How do you know we aren't all bots?
Jokes apart, when you are a person like Ange who can see and talk to a little girl that is supposed to have died a ten years before, and who can see and talk to witch of miracles, and who can see and talk to seven demons and an anthropomorphization of a lion plush while even playing "shiratori" with them... how could you have the complete certainty that every other person around you that you consider "real" actually is?

At the same time, like with everything else in Umineko, those scenes were very metaphorical, and I don't believe for one second that Ange ever believed she was really talking to Maria and Sakutarou. I think she does have a better grip on reality than what you give her credit for.



It's all in Ange's mind. Battler becomes stronger because Ange starts to believe more in him than in Bernkastel. Belief is power in the metaworld and so even Ange could make the witch of miracles transform into a harmless kitten simply by willing it.
Hmm... at least in my experience of lucid dreams, it's difficult to just will something into existence. The less connected it is from reality, the harder it is for me to accomplish it without waking up.
With that said, EP8 does show Ange's journey, growing up not sure whether her own immediate family were murderers or if the one who took her in killed everyone. What you did say could apply though: Ange's belief and trust in her brother was probably stronger than her belief in Rudolf family culprit theory.

[Wanderer]

About EP8: All I can say is that the moment Battler punched Bern with lastendconductor.ogg running in the background was priceless. This also brings up the question: WHY was Battler able to do that? Until then it was an established thing that they (Bern and Lambda) would just disappear into mist and the attack would be a miss. And just moments ago they fought each other by using universes as weapons... So? Any ideas?

I posted on this a long while back:

That scene bothered me for a similar reason when I read it the first time. When I read it the next time I was seeing Lambda and Bern as metaphors for metaphysical forces, gods, if you will. "Praying" to Bern is hoping things outside your control will go your way, while "praying" to Lambda is believing your efforts will be rewarded.

Meanwhile, the conflicts and alliances seen in the Meta-World are metaphors for things happening in the real world. Lambda and Bern, doing what they do, mean different things to different people in different situations. In this way they can play various roles (ally, villain etc.) in various circumstances. Neither Lambda or Bern are inherently good or evil; after all, they are just metaphors of (meta)physical forces.

Now, gods like Lambda and Bern are only influential in so far as they and their power is believed in. Lambda's death symbolized a destruction of the belief that persistent effort would certainly yield success, and Battler beating Bern represented a rejection of her power to control his fate. It's basically a matter of willpower; Bern tried to make everything go wrong for Battler's real world goals, but he just refused to let that discourage him.

Of course these ideas are highly abstract. I probably didn't explain my thoughts in a way that's very easy to understand...

[AuraTwilight]

About EP8: All I can say is that the moment Battler punched Bern with lastendconductor.ogg running in the background was priceless. This also brings up the question: WHY was Battler able to do that? Until then it was an established thing that they (Bern and Lambda) would just disappear into mist and the attack would be a miss. And just moments ago they fought each other by using universes as weapons... So? Any ideas?

It was literally a miracle, which is the one thing Bernkastel couldn't accept existing. Incidentally, that same moment was what made Bernkastel absolutely lose her shit.

It was an amazingly well-written moment, all things considered.

[GreyZone]

I posted on this a long while back:
No... that somehow doesn't sound right for me. Even in the the meta world Lambda and Bern are "concepts". They are on a higher plane. Attacking Bern violently seems to be something else than just rejecting her. I mean the fact that she feels "hurt" by the attack seems more like her existence itself would be damaged and not just have less influence over Ange's thoughts. OR it means that the purpose of her existence was destroyed. If Ange leads a good life, then she has NO NEED for miracles/good fortunes etc.. When she becomes Yukari, her life becomes better and she "moves on". That makes Berns existence unnecessary which leads to her feeling hurt by Battler's "attacks"... well just my take on it.

[AuraTwilight]

It's important to note that Lambdadelta and Bernkastel are both hypocrites, drawing as much power from the ABSENCE of their concepts as much as they do its presence.

[Wanderer]

"Ange is not the only person in the world" should have become my catchphrase by this point.

Yes, but the same principle applies to Gohda's mom as well. I just mentioned Ange because she's the relevant narrative device.

[Kealym]

About EP8: All I can say is that the moment Battler punched Bern with lastendconductor.ogg running in the background was priceless. This also brings up the question: WHY was Battler able to do that? Until then it was an established thing that they (Bern and Lambda) would just disappear into mist and the attack would be a miss. And just moments ago they fought each other by using universes as weapons... So? Any ideas?
Well ... I think it's one of those Meta moments that reached almost up to whatever layer you'd consider us ourselves on. Remember just before that, when Battler was able to beat Bern'sspecial cat brigade? Who she basically said were "better main characters, from better stories than yours (presumably Ryukishi's 'Umineko' as we ourselves are reading it)"?

Well logically, he shouldn't have been able to win, right? I think Ryu was expressing acknowledgement that he isn't the best writer ever, but Battler gets to shine because it's HIS story, damnit. I wanna say it's, as well as the Bern punching, a tounge in cheek Deus Ex Machina, because "c'mon, you can't let Bern get off scott free. C'MON. C'MOOOOOON." Something like that.

...though personally, I'd have preferred living, unexploded Ushiromiya's over a temporarily ass-handed Bernkastel. Ohhhh well.

At the same time, like with everything else in Umineko, those scenes were very metaphorical, and I don't believe for one second that Ange ever believed she was really talking to Maria and Sakutarou. I think she does have a better grip on reality than what you give her credit for.
Huh, that reminds me of something from when I was in 7th grade or so. I created this trio of sisters with magical powers, right, sort of a cartoonish hybrid between the Halliwell sisters and the Powerpuff girls ... and they helped me with my math work. Well, strictly speaking, I helped myself with my math work, but I saw them exploding the problems out of the textbook as I solved them, and encouraging me during tests, and wobbling around like they just got attacked in a Star Trek ship when I was running out of time. I'd doodled them over a pretty fair amount of math sheets and notes. I can't believe I never remembered this when I was actually reading through Ange's story in EP4, wow. :heh:

I posted on this a long while back:
No, you were explaining it very well there, and I happen to agree with that view.

Yes, but the same principle applies to Gohda's mom as well. I just mentioned Ange because she's the relevant narrative device.
Gah, I always entertained the idea of Ange teaming up with Maria's dad to find THE TRUTH™. Awkward tension would have been through the roof.

[Jan-Poo]

Gah, I always entertained the idea of Ange teaming up with Maria's dad to find THE TRUTH™. Awkward tension would have been through the roof.

She "teamed up" with Kyrie's sister instead, and it was even more awkward.

[jjblue1]

No... that somehow doesn't sound right for me. Even in the the meta world Lambda and Bern are "concepts". They are on a higher plane. Attacking Bern violently seems to be something else than just rejecting her. I mean the fact that she feels "hurt" by the attack seems more like her existence itself would be damaged and not just have less influence over Ange's thoughts. OR it means that the purpose of her existence was destroyed. If Ange leads a good life, then she has NO NEED for miracles/good fortunes etc.. When she becomes Yukari, her life becomes better and she "moves on". That makes Berns existence unnecessary which leads to her feeling hurt by Battler's "attacks"... well just my take on it.

There's to say that Bern seems to aim for a single goal rejecting any other possible outcome. She says in a tip she always aim for a certain goal and, ironically, in Higurashi Rika rejected a 'perfect world' different from the one she reached in Kai. So it's possible that the fact that Ange is willing to accept a different 'ending/goal' 'damages' Bern. No hard effort or miracle can bring Ange's family back but this doesn't mean Ange will have to kill herself or her hopes.

[GuestSpeaker]

I was wondering, in quite a few episodes different characters pointed out that tea/food is more enjoyable if you know about it/can describe or discuss it in detail. This seemed mildly important to Ryu, do you think it could be a hint to the fact we would get answers by reading mystery novels/discussing them with each-other/the way that Yasu and then Battler enjoyed murder mysteries by talking them through with the experienced Kumasawa/Shannon? It just recurred so often....

[GuestSpeaker]

Also the manga translation just covered the episode 5 part about the knock, it seems to deny that everyone could have just lied about hearing the knock, but I would have to go recheck the red.

[GuestSpeaker]

Sorry for triple post, but I realised it is fine for anyone in the dining room to knock on the door, even though this doesn't really make sense. Furthermore the letter needs only never to have been on the floor in the hallway for the story to check out.

I also realised it is entirely possibly for Shannon and Kanon to have sat in the dining room and stayed with the family, the tend to do most things together actually.

[Thunder Book]

This part of Episode 5 still confuses me.

I hate to think there's a stupid word game in play here, but is it possible that something else other than a typical "knock" is meant by a "knocking sound"?

EDIT: I'm not sure it was possible for one of the people in the dining room to knock on the door. Look at this passage from Episode 5 when the group hears the knock.

Right now, it is exactly the same time that the large clock in the hall announces 24:00. Wondering who the person who knocked on the door twice was, ......the relatives in the dining hall stared at the door. Rudolf told them to come in. ......But there was no answer. Until the end of that long tone marking the coming of 24:00, which had come from the large clock in the hall shortly after the knock, they were unable to move in the slightest......


EDIT 2: There's red about this too in Episode 5. Let it be known that in addition to Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji, none of those in the dining hall knocked on that door. Shortly after this, Dlanor says "In short, this means it was impossible for any character within the mansion to be the source of the knocking SOUND. ......And 'any character' refers even to unobserved people that no one has noticed."

[Drifloon]

I don't think that anyone lied about the knock - it just never happened. Nobody ever tells anyone about the knock, so there's no proof anyone even thinks it happened. It's a completely fabricated fantasy scene, one of many examples of Lambda playing dirty.

[Uberzaki]

Of course! It was the door that made the knocking sound, not the person! Just like how the drum makes the sound and not the percussionist!

*Ahem*

I might view the scene again to see if I can come up with something crazy... err original. What was the chapter called?

[Wegenbarth]

Its more obvious that the knock didn't occure at 24:00, but earlier.
Somebody (in other words, it has to be someone who is in the guest house @ 24:00) changed the time in Natsuhis room after he placed the tarrot card (or four cards, since I don't believe in Shakanontrice) and in the main hall, so the clock in the main hall indicated too early that it is midnight.

It was never stated in red that the time when the knock occured really was at 24:00, right?

And even Will told us the solution in the beginning of the 7th novel.

[Drifloon]

Four cards, huh? You realise that the guy on the phone already implied that summer wasn't the right answer before they asked, right? Why take that risk if it could have been summer for all they knew? Not to mention that if Natsuhi had happened to find any of the other cards, the illusion would be ruined.

Also, I'm pretty sure there were no hints at any point that the clock was tampered with, and why try to explain how the knock could have happened when, outside of a scene that the detective never witnessed or heard about, it was never mentioned?

[Wanderer]

Somebody changed the time in Natsuhis room after he placed the tarrot card and in the main hall,

Why would they do that? Why not just knock when it's actually midnight?

[Kealym]

Sorry for triple post, but I realised it is fine for anyone in the dining room to knock on the door, even though this doesn't really make sense. Furthermore the letter needs only never to have been on the floor in the hallway for the story to check out.

I also realised it is entirely possibly for Shannon and Kanon to have sat in the dining room and stayed with the family, the tend to do most things together actually.
In short, this means it was impossible for any character within the mansion to be the source of a knocking SOUND. It's true that the story checks out if the letter was never placed in the hall, similar to how a closed room checks out if the door was never really locked. It's also true that Shannon and Kanon tend to do things together, but it IS peculiar that they're doing something together around a bunch of people who aren't Kumasawa or Genji.


This part of Episode 5 still confuses me.

I hate to think there's a stupid word game in play here, but is it possible that something else other than a typical "knock" is meant by a "knocking sound"?
"'To knock' means someone hitting a door with their hand, right?" is what Lambda said, and nobody would mistake a similar sound from any other method for the real thing, either.

Right now, it is exactly the same time that the large clock in the hall announces 24:00. Wondering who the person who knocked on the door twice was, ......the relatives in the dining hall stared at the door. Rudolf told them to come in. ......But there was no answer. Until the end of that long tone marking the coming of 24:00, which had come from the large clock in the hall shortly after the knock, they were unable to move in the slightest......

Yeah, and Battler saw Kinzo being a creeper in the bushes earlier.

I don't think that anyone lied about the knock - it just never happened. Nobody ever tells anyone about the knock, so there's no proof anyone even thinks it happened. It's a completely fabricated fantasy scene, one of many examples of Lambda playing dirty.
"People lied about the knock" and "no knock occured" are effectively the same argument, you know. Erika gathered a very detailed account of everyone's actions the previous night. And while I'm unsure if she ever explicitly ponders it aloud to the other pieces, I think it's very reasonable to assume that Erika is aware that a letter was delivered, which is allegedly how Battler obtained the Ring of the Head.

Furthermore, despite what the characters themselves say, the degree to which the human side has to account for things varies pretty wildly from game to game. Hell, you could say that the ENTIRE "Court of Illusions" segment should never have reached it's anti-Natsuhi verdict because Erika NEVER accounted for the letter, which was obviously something that COULD be discussed with Truths, because they did so.

Of course! It was the door that made the knocking sound, not the person! Just like how the drum makes the sound and not the percussionist!

*Ahem*

I might view the scene again to see if I can come up with something crazy... err original. What was the chapter called?
Well, it was never explicitly said that the door was typical. It's possible it grew a hand that reached out and hit itself. :heh:

The argument about the letter is in the chapter titled "Reasoning and Inspection".

Its more obvious that the knock didn't occure at 24:00, but earlier.
Somebody (in other words, it has to be someone who is in the guest house @ 24:00) changed the time in Natsuhis room after he placed the tarrot card (or four cards, since I don't believe in Shakanontrice) and in the main hall, so the clock in the main hall indicated too early that it is midnight.

It was never stated in red that the time when the knock occured really was at 24:00, right?

And even Will told us the solution in the beginning of the 7th novel.
It was obvious that the clocks had been changed..? It's possible, based on what we know, but I agree with Wanderer - it's a much more complex solution than, and provides no benefits over "no knock occured". Occams Razor and all that. Also, what did Will say about that? I've forgotten.

Four cards, huh? You realise that the guy on the phone already implied that summer wasn't the right answer before they asked, right? Why take that risk if it could have been summer for all they knew? Not to mention that if Natsuhi had happened to find any of the other cards, the illusion would be ruined.

Also, I'm pretty sure there were no hints at any point that the clock was tampered with, and why try to explain how the knock could have happened when, outside of a scene that the detective never witnessed or heard about, it was never mentioned?
Well, pulling off a trick does take some risk. What is Maria had opened her eyes when Beato was making candy appear, and stuff. As I said, it's very likely that Erika was told about the letter later, and even assuming she wasn't, it's still an "odd trick" that implies the illusion of the witch in the overall narrative. The knee jerk response, like with many other scenes, would just be "That never happened!", and despite a crapload of details about the layout of people and actions, Lambda never confirmed that it did happen.

[Wanderer]

Also, what did Will say about that? I've forgotten.

It's in KnownNoMore's 2nd video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd-MdI-imT8&feature=relmfu). Start at 1:32:48.

Well, pulling off a trick does take some risk. What is Maria had opened her eyes when Beato was making candy appear, and stuff. As I said, it's very likely that Erika was told about the letter later, and even assuming she wasn't, it's still an "odd trick" that implies the illusion of the witch in the overall narrative. The knee jerk response, like with many other scenes, would just be "That never happened!", and despite a crapload of details about the layout of people and actions, Lambda never confirmed that it did happen.

Well, the funny thing about the letter scene is that it's never brought up at any other point in the story. The whole narrative just moves on as if it never happened. The only reason, I think, to believe there's something real about it is that the reds suggest that there actually was some letter.

[Kealym]

It's in KnownNoMore's 2nd video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd-MdI-imT8&feature=relmfu). Start at 1:32:48.
Thanks.

Well, the funny thing about the letter scene is that it's never brought up at any other point in the story. The whole narrative just moves on as if it never happened. The only reason, I think, to believe there's something real about it is that the reds suggest that there actually was some letter.
I agree - it would seem Lambda just decided not to make it an arguing point, 'cause she found anti-Natsuhi too entertaining. Which is something the witch side can just do, I guess, like how Beatrice decided to let Erika use 'X' for getting Kanon out of the Guesthouse in the next game.

I'd say it's illogical that ERIKA never brings it up again, but then, I find it somewhat illogical that Erika was stumped by it, too. 'Cause that was honestly one of the ... two or three riddles I was able to see an obvious solution for before the scene was even over. "Shkanon delivered the letter / people lied" just really seems to be the way to go.

[Wanderer]

I'd say it's illogical that ERIKA never brings it up again, but then, I find it somewhat illogical that Erika was stumped by it, too.

Well, let's not forget that at that time Erika and Bern had not realized that Battler's perspective could be unreliable. Without that it's a pretty tough riddle, with KNM's solution the only one I know of.

[Thunder Book]

Yeah, and Battler saw Kinzo being a creeper in the bushes earlier.

That doesn't prove the narrator was lying in the dining room scene though. With the Kinzo thing, we had at least had it beaten into our heads that Kinzo was already dead, and therefore Battler couldn't have really saw him there alive.

Though I guess he could have saw Kinzo's corpse there for whatever reason.

[Kealym]

Well, let's not forget that at that time Erika and Bern had not realized that Battler's perspective could be unreliable. Without that it's a pretty tough riddle, with KNM's solution the only one I know of.
Is that so..? They never seemed to treat his piece with more or less regard than anyone elses... also, if they were "trusting" Battler's perspective to be objective, there'd have been no need to confirm who was in the Dining Hall during the conference, because they'd have been objectively observed.

...well anyway, I watched his bit of video concerning the knock/letter/phone call, and ... well, it's really displeasingly convoluted. And I say that from my stance that "Ryukishi intentionally made EP5 broken/non-sensical to make a point".

The red clearly states that you cannot be in the mansion and produce a knock. And as far as the pieces are concerned, there's no restriction on George going to the mansion at actual midnight ... BUT, we know via red that at actual midnight, 24:00, George has to be in the Guesthouse, and Natsuhi / Krauss / Genji have to be in the 2nd floor corridor. His theory says George went to the mansion after midnight to work with these, but this leaves a very, very small window of time for him to do A LOT of stuff. And this possibly creates dissonance between when Erika reported leaving the cousins, and when she actually did. It's just so ... much. :heh:

That doesn't prove the narrator was lying in the dining room scene though.
True. And I'm not trying to live in the "There was no detective, IT WAS ALL LIES" camp. But a mysterious letter and knock (which are never confirmed) appeared under dubious circumstances, with a bunch of restrictive lines of red in a room where at least WE know there's no reliably objective viewpoint. Combined with the general undertone of conspiracy that seems to be in EP5, it's not unreasonable to put that scene under some scrutiny, I think.

[Thunder Book]

I get what you're saying, and am not disagreeing that the scene needs scrutiny, but if the knock scene really didn't happen at all, that just seems so...underhanded of Ryu07 to me.

If the letter/knock scene didn't really happen, and is just a troll, then why waste our time with it in the story?

[GreyZone]

That knock never happened and a letter was never found there. Saying that something didn't happen in an incident does in no way contradict that the incident didn't happen at all.

You got any red to disprove that blue truth? Or is it effective?


I mean it would be nothing new. The chapel door in EP2 was not locked when Rosa opened it.

[Thunder Book]

The only argument I could think of putting forward is that Lambda's reds imply the existence of the knock. But that's an argument easily crushed, isn't it?

[Kealym]

I get what you're saying, and am not disagreeing that the scene needs scrutiny, but if the knock scene really didn't happen at all, that just seems so...underhanded of Ryu07 to me.

If the letter/knock scene didn't really happen, and is just a troll, then why waste our time with it in the story?
I have my own opinion on what the dirty trick of EP5 is ... but I don't consider the knock/letter a troll or a waste. Bearing in mind that Chiru aren't "answer arcs", but "core arcs", that presumably are supposed you reach into the depths of the truths at work and all that jazz... it shows an example of how your logic can be derailed by faulty assumptions and (I hope I'm using this example correctly) Raven paradoxes.

Basically, we had that giant flurry of red truths, without a single one confirming that anything had happened, that a letter had even actually arrived, that a knock was actually heard. It's a lesson of sorts, one that you can use when re-examining certain earlier riddles. Also, I'd say the scene implies that Shannon/Kanon pretty openly just ... present themselves at the conference and deliver the letter, or something along those lines.

[GreyZone]

The only argument I could think of putting forward is that Lambda's reds imply the existence of the knock. But that's an argument easily crushed, isn't it?

Yea... Betrice also implied that the chapel door was locked in EP2. "Implying" things is what witches do after all... or mabye it is more like "derailing".

[GuestSpeaker]

My only issue with the while thing being a lie is that I thought Lamda through out some red about "everyone identifying the knock correctly", though if they never identified it at all I guess that is ok... I'd be more suspicious of the clock too, I mean, when have we ever had such specific time descriptions before? Ryu once said paying attention to what is described in detail is important.

When I said they do most things together, I was making a shkannontrice joke.

Furthermore, anyone else notice Erika's blue about the letter being placed earlier was never actually denied, Gertelia just said in black that people didn't notice it before when the door was opened. This could be a sneaky way of getting round it.

Also, as an aside, anyone else really like how blue truths can be wrong but still defeat the illusion, like when battler stated that kino was recognized in four because someone else took on the title and asked Beatrice if people could hold more than one or something. He may have been wrong, but shkannon stops her from refuting him.

[Judoh]

My only issue with the while thing being a lie is that I thought Lamda through out some red about "everyone identifying the knock correctly", though if they never identified it at all I guess that is ok... I'd be more suspicious of the clock too, I mean, when have we ever had such specific time descriptions before? Ryu once said paying attention to what is described in detail is important.

She said it as, "no one would ever mishear a knocking sound", which is stating what the characters can't do hypothetically. It's playing pretty dirty, but she never really confirms there was a knock.

[Drifloon]

In the manga, it's translated as 'everybody identified the sound as a knock and could not mistake it for any other sound' which does seem to imply that there was indeed a knocking sound. However, I'm more inclined to believe that this is just a translation difference and the wording of the red in Japanese probably didn't change between the VN and manga.

[Thunder Book]

You sure about that? It could be like the "stillborn" change again.

[GuestSpeaker]

Ryu is using the manga as an opportunity to clear up problems with the games (as per his fixing of the boiler room door) but what is this stillborn change?

[Wanderer]

In the manga, it's translated as 'everybody identified the sound as a knock and could not mistake it for any other sound' which does seem to imply that there was indeed a knocking sound. However, I'm more inclined to believe that this is just a translation difference and the wording of the red in Japanese probably didn't change between the VN and manga.

So, the exact line as it appears in the translation is 'Hence, everybody identified the sound correctly as a knock and could not mistake it for any other sound.'

Believe it or not, I don't think this was mistranslated, nor do I think it means that there was actually a knock. It's all from the "hence" part. I can't find a raw, but I suspect the Japanese word used is つまり, which has at other times been translated as "in short" or "in other words". Whenever these patterns occur, I believe that the red "conclusion" can be false.

KnownNoMore actually identifies the best example one such situation in his 3rd video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlF4FEJ4DYA), at 1:12:07. And, no, the problem does not seem to be a mistranslation as KNM supposes.

I guess the excuse is that the つまり statements are more like suggestions or theses and thus are not subject to being "true" or "false" in of themselves... but honestly, I think it's a pretty cheap trick to say these kinds of things in red. They should be in white.

Is that so..? They never seemed to treat his piece with more or less regard than anyone elses... also, if they were "trusting" Battler's perspective to be objective, there'd have been no need to confirm who was in the Dining Hall during the conference, because they'd have been objectively observed.

Actually, no one ever listed the names of the people in the dining hall, despite ample opportunity to do so. They always said, in as many words, "everyone else" was in the dining hall. Incidently, doesn't that sound familiar to a trick in EP6?

[GuestSpeaker]

Hey, where did KNM get an English version AND a good graphic version?

Also he stated that Jessica knew Kinzo was dead, this seems likely (she probably guessed or was told) but is never proven.

[GreyZone]

but what is this stillborn change?

I guess Thunder Book means the EP4 thing about "Battler is Ushiromiya Asumu's Son", which did not apply to the Battler we know, but to the stillborn child instead who is also named Battler.

[haguruma]

I guess Thunder Book means the EP4 thing about "Battler is Ushiromiya Asumu's Son", which did not apply to the Battler we know, but to the stillborn child instead who is also named Battler.
Actually it refers to a mistake that was apparently made by Ryûkishi in an early version of EP3 (I don't have my original copy with me, so I can't check) where he had Kyrie say that her pregnancy ended in a miscarriage (流産) instead of a stillbirth (死産), which lead to a lot of misunderstandings concerning how far an exchange of children was even possible.

After I researched the term a little I think I understand how he was able to make this mistake, though I'm not perfectly sure about the Japanese linguistic implications, because the terms are not exactly totally fixed in how they can be applied except for the approximate age and weight of the fetus.
As this apparently happened on the due-date, the term miscarriage cannot be applied, as it is normaly only used up to 20-25weeks...but as miscarriage is categorized as a natural abortion of the fetus from the mothers womb, this created some inconsistencies in how far Kyrie would not have noticed anything.
Though as far as I know, a stillbirth beyond a certain age of the fetus can still be medically a miscarriage but is legally handled as a stillbirth...so yeah, it was mostly a question of semantics back then.

Oh, and I don't know if anybody ever brought this up and somebody would need to check the circumstances in Japan, but in Germany way into the 1980's the mother was sedated in case of a stillbirth and the fetus was removed from the room. So if Rudolph actually managed to buy the hospital staff, it wouldn't be that hard to make Kyrie believe her baby was stillborn.

[Drifloon]

Hey, where did KNM get an English version AND a good graphic version?

Shouldn't be too hard to find the patch on Google. I think Witch Hunt would frown on me if I linked it here.

[Thunder Book]

I guess Thunder Book means the EP4 thing about "Battler is Ushiromiya Asumu's Son", which did not apply to the Battler we know, but to the stillborn child instead who is also named Battler.

I was talking about what haguruma mentioned, actually. Though I was under the impression the change in terms first happened in the anime or manga adaptations of Episode 3.

[Renall]

The knock, if a lie in red based on a Definite Description error (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definite_description), is debatably possible to speak about in red. I used the "Present King of France" trick jokingly in Battler Solves the Logic Error to have Battler talk about aliens in red when (more than likely) there are no aliens of the type and in the place that he described. Going by the rules as established in ep5, however, I think this sort of wordplay is red-compatible.

There is an argument to the contrary by various philosophers, but it's a complex question of formal logic and reference. The question is, what does "the knock" refer to when used by the characters who talk about it with authority? We presume as a matter of course that these statements refer to a specific existent concept, but as the letter debate sort of shows that isn't necessarily true.

However, if we divorce "the knock" from any physical action, how exactly can we talk about what it was or was not at all? If it's not a reference, what is it? If it's a symbol, are some of the things Lambda said about it actually safe to say in red?

It's probably not a question Ryukishi got too deeply into given his philosophical shallowness in other areas. A bit hypocritical, I think, coming from someone willing to employ semantic trickery.

[GuestSpeaker]

Renall, I have to admit I have almost no idea what you were trying to say there. My laymancy is catching up with me.


Shouldn't be too hard to find the patch on Google. I think Witch Hunt would frown on me if I linked it here.

Apart from the fact I have already given the Witch Hunt as much money as they have asked for, I thought all the better graphic versions were on different systems than the PC, or do you mean to use an emulator? Also low blow to whoever stole their text for the patch.

[Renall]

Renall, I have to admit I have almost no idea what you were trying to say there. My laymancy is catching up with me.Alright, let's try to break this down.

Let's say I want to make a statement in red, "The current King of France is bald." Obviously, I can't say something that isn't true in red. So is this statement true or false?

...Well, that's the problem. As I'm sure you're well aware, there is no current King of France. But the statement I'm actually making isn't "there is a current King of France," it's a statement about the current King of France. Or the First Man on Mars. Or Santa Claus's Brother. The point is, these things don't exist, but the truth value of the statement has nothing specifically to do with that.

The truth value we're looking at is "is he bald?" The problem is that he doesn't exist, so we can't say that he is bald... on the other hand, he doesn't exist, so we can't say that he isn't bald. He's neither, because the subject of the red doesn't exist. So the statement is (assuming you don't delve into logic like Bertrand Russell does) neither true nor false, an apparently unresolvable logical statement. Some philosophers believe this to be the case, others believe they can use formal logic to prove the statement is either true (that is, you can talk about the properties of a nonexistent entity, but they don't mean anything) or false (that you accept the statement is logical, but as the subject doesn't exist, anything said about the subject is a false statement).

Given apparent precedent in ep5, Ryukishi himself holds that a statement about a thing which does not exist is true. In other words, "the knock" is the same as "the current King of France." Neither exists, but he is permitted to talk about it as if it were and make true statements about it. Note here that we're talking only about those reds which specifically address the knock as a subject; some of the other statements Lambda makes are indirectly referring to the incident in a manner that is entirely true and also happens to tell us nothing about whether a knock actually happened.

However, arguably, this means anything is possible to say in red as long as the subject doesn't exist. In other words, not only can we say "no one in the mansion made the knock," we can also say "all cellular phones on Rokkenjima are functional" and "the space aliens in the hallway didn't cause the knocking sound" and even "the witch on the island is definitely named Beatrice." This is because Ryukishi has adopted the "true, but meaningless" interpretation of the definite description error, whether he's realized it or not.

[UsagiTenpura]

~
Are you sure about that? I mean, I think you might have broken the limit of your reasoning. If this is correct Ryuukishi could've said "a witch did it" (since witches doesn't exist).

Or to give a more practical example, when "Kanon was killed by someone else" it could be that the someone else it refers to doesn't exist at all for instance. The truth concerning that red isn't much better, I admit, but this just seems a bit too much.

I do agree you can probably say things in red with no truth value like the laugh and such but I don't think, at the very least, that this was used much. This actually sorta suggest Yasu doesn't even exist, you know (if she doesn't exist then the red could've easily be said during all of Umineko to make her into the most probable culprit)?


Apart from the fact I have already given the Witch Hunt as much money as they have asked for, I thought all the better graphic versions were on different systems than the PC, or do you mean to use an emulator? Also low blow to whoever stole their text for the patch.

Well I think you're sorta confused here. 07th expansion makes Umineko. The "better graphic versions" (ps3 or psp) are however releases belonging to Alchemist. WitchHunt, we're just the translation group. In that logic it's just forum rules beyond anything else that prevents posting a link to a software that isn't legal.

[LyricalAura]

However, arguably, this means anything is possible to say in red as long as the subject doesn't exist. In other words, not only can we say "no one in the mansion made the knock," we can also say "all cellular phones on Rokkenjima are functional" and "the space aliens in the hallway didn't cause the knocking sound" and even "the witch on the island is definitely named Beatrice." This is because Ryukishi has adopted the "true, but meaningless" interpretation of the definite description error, whether he's realized it or not.

Japanese grammar doesn't have articles, so there is no distinction between "the knock" and "a knock" in the first place. The two phrases are totally ambiguous.

[Jan-Poo]

It's a little different, Renall, but close.

During the night, between 24:00 and morning, a living Kinzo could not have existed anywhere outside Natsuhi's room!!

So for your statement of the Bald King you should have rather said.

There is no King of France outside of a bald one.

And that's consistent with

None of the characters misidentified a knocking sound.

For your other statements they should be:

there are no cellular phones that are unfunctional on Rokkenjima

other than space aliens in the hallway noone could have caused the knocking sound

Other than the Witch Beatrice there is no witch on this island.


Japanese grammar doesn't have articles, so there is no distinction between "the knock" and "a knock" in the first place. The two phrases are totally ambiguous.

That apart it could work even with the article because you could interpret that as "the knocking sound you are talking about" rather than "the knocking sound that actually happened".
The examples above show that according to Ryuukishi's logic you can mention unexistent things in red, you just cannot directly imply that they exist. So if you say that the space alien did or is something you do it wrong. But you can say that the space alien isn't or didn't do something.

What is really disagreeable is the way you are allowed to "partition" the truth, making half statements that certainly many persons would consider half lies.

[Xenon_gun]

Are you sure about that? I mean, I think you might have broken the limit of your reasoning. If this is correct Ryuukishi could've said "a witch did it" (since witches doesn't exist).


I think Renall might be onto something, and the quoted reminded me of several snippets where (if I remember correctly) Beatrice states that she could support that witches exist in red, but that it would also be meaningless because it would not make Battler understand. Then, there is episode 3, where she says something to EVA-Beatrice that destroys her. Note that Battler doesn't hear what she said in this case either.

Right now, I'm thinking the reason why she doesn't make such an obviously ambiguous statement is because it would give away the whole trick behind the red. If there is a trick, anyway.

[Drifloon]

Apart from the fact I have already given the Witch Hunt as much money as they have asked for, I thought all the better graphic versions were on different systems than the PC, or do you mean to use an emulator? Also low blow to whoever stole their text for the patch.

There's no emulation involved, it's just a straight patch that replaces the graphics, like the one for Higurashi. The reason it's not okay to post is because it's considered illegal to benefit from the PS3-specific content when you didn't actually buy the PS3 version. (The patch is actually intended to be played only by people who have both the PS3 and the PC version, but I'm pretty sure almost none of the people who use it actually do.)

[Renall]

Are you sure about that? I mean, I think you might have broken the limit of your reasoning. If this is correct Ryuukishi could've said "a witch did it" (since witches doesn't exist).

Or to give a more practical example, when "Kanon was killed by someone else" it could be that the someone else it refers to doesn't exist at all for instance. The truth concerning that red isn't much better, I admit, but this just seems a bit too much.No, actually, you're taking it further than it's allowed to go. "The current King of France is bald" is different from "the current King of France gave me a haircut." When you ascribe action to a nonexistent entity you essentially construct its asserted existence into the truth value of the statement. For the latter statement to be true, not only must I have been given a haircut, but a specific actor must have given it to me or the sentence is false. Since there is no such actor as the current King of France, the statement is false.

However, describing a nonexistent entity or asserting it did not do something doesn't construct its existence, creating a logical problem where we can't say whether the King of France is bald or not because he doesn't exist. The answer to the former question is not "True" or "False," but "uhhh, well there is no such guy, so it's really neither."

You can't say "a witch committed the murders" because it creates a falsifiable logical statement which can be disproved. If you show who did commit the murders, then you need only observe that they were not a witch (or were a witch), in which case the statement is either true or false. You can't do this for all the cell phones on Rokkenjima, because in 1986 there weren't any there so you can't confirm whether all of them were working. But they also weren't not working, because they didn't exist at all. This appears to create a circumstance where you can declare in red that any cell phone on the island worked, but only because there weren't any and you aren't suggesting that any actor actually used them for any purpose. It's like saying "Krauss's boat cannot get you off the island" when Krauss doesn't have a boat. Ryukishi appears to view this as fair game to state in red, but only because there isn't any subject for it to apply to.Japanese grammar doesn't have articles, so there is no distinction between "the knock" and "a knock" in the first place. The two phrases are totally ambiguous.That only really makes it easier to discuss something nonexistent as you can be intentionally non-specific while creating the impression of specificity. That is, as long as the thing you are describing is nonexistent; as long as there was no knock, any discussion of a knock essentially follows these rules, and this would hold for any nonexistent subject described in any degree of specificity.It's a little different, Renall, but close.

During the night, between 24:00 and morning, a living Kinzo could not have existed anywhere outside Natsuhi's room!!

So for your statement of the Bald King you should have rather said.

There is no King of France outside of a bald one.

And that's consistent with

None of the characters misidentified a knocking sound.To structure it more closely with the Japanese formulation, perhaps, but grammatically there's no real difference in English. I was careful with my formulations to refer to everything as directly as possible, e.g. "the space aliens in the hallway" are a singular descriptive unit of a nonexistent entity, not an assertion that the aliens do actually exist there. It's just misleading.

Also changing it to "other than the space aliens in the hallway, no one could have caused the knocking sound" is actually a different sentence. Although it's a particularly good example of a misleading statement because instead of saying, as I did, "the nonexistent entity did not cause a knock" (which is obvious, because something that doesn't exist can't cause anything), you've said "other than an entity that doesn't exist, no one could have caused the knock," which is logically equivalent to "no one caused the knock." Mine leaves open the possibility that a knock was caused, but makes a meaningless-but-true statement that a nonexistent being didn't cause it.

The "living Kinzo" is a more direct and apparent example of this, and it was obviously intentional on Ryukishi's part. The reason that one is different is because you can't really formulate it the opposite way because doing so would create the direct assertion that Kinzo is somewhere, which asserts being on his part and therefore ceases to be a definite description error (even if it is factually wrong). You might be able to get away with "during those hours, Kinzo could only possibly have been in Natsuhi's room." The reason why this is true is simple: If Kinzo existed, there's only one place he could have been, but that doesn't mean he actually was there. Same thing as the actual statement as written, just flipped around. Again, it implies existence but doesn't actually assert it. However, many a philosopher would probably argue that's the wrong way of looking at it. But in Ryukishi's work I guess we gotta follow Ryukishi's rules, and he has many instances of a true-but-meaningless statement being made in red which means he believes a meaningless statement has a truth value of true.That apart it could work even with the article because you could interpret that as "the knocking sound you are talking about" rather than "the knocking sound that actually happened".
The examples above show that according to Ryuukishi's logic you can mention unexistent things in red, you just cannot directly imply that they exist. So if you say that the space alien did or is something you do it wrong. But you can say that the space alien isn't or didn't do something.I disagree. I think you can imply the existence of something - and Ryukishi does - but you can't directly state it through definition or action.

For example, you can't say "space aliens were in the hallway and they didn't cause the knock" because it's a direct assignment of existence. You can't say "space aliens in the hallway caused the knock" because it's a direct statement of an action undertaken (which in turn asserts the existence of both actor and action). But you can say "space aliens in the hallway didn't cause the knock" because "space aliens in the hallway" is a description of an actor that doesn't exist and the actor is not stated to have taken any action. An actor not existing cannot take action, so stating that no such action was undertaken by such an actor is a true statement.

Articles shouldn't affect this in any way. You don't need a definite article to run upon this logical problem. If anything, it makes the problem easier to construct, as Ryukishi can talk about "knocks" without the implication of definite existence or numbering (another thing a definite article would do that the Japanese will not; "the knock" implies one, but lack of a definite article means it's not clear if there was one knock, many knocks, or any knock).

[Jan-Poo]

For example, you can't say "space aliens were in the hallway and they didn't cause the knock" because it's a direct assignment of existence.


Agreed.

You can't say "space aliens in the hallway caused the knock" because it's a direct statement of an action undertaken (which in turn asserts the existence of both actor and action).

Agreed.

But you can say "space aliens in the hallway didn't cause the knock" because "space aliens in the hallway" is a description of an actor that doesn't exist and the actor is not stated to have taken any action. An actor not existing cannot take action, so stating that no such action was undertaken by such an actor is a true statement.

Agreed.

But your statement:

"The current King of France is bald."

Assigns a quality to something that doesn't exist. And that directly implies its existence because that which doesn't exist cannot be said to have any quality in red.

Or at least there is no evidence that you can do that... not like I'd be surprised if Ryuukishi broke even that barrier.

[Renall]

"Is" in that statement is a descriptor, not an assignment of existence. When I say "some cows are brown," that doesn't necessarily mean I have in mind a specific existent cow that is brown, or indeed that I am even actively aware that such a cow really does exist anywhere. As it so happens, that particular statement is formulated in a manner that permits it to be verified (through the production of at least one example of a brown cow that obviously must exist to be produced), but it's not true because the subject I was using exists ("some cows" is a hypothetical subject), but rather because the hypothetical can be verified.

Anyway don't blame me for the King of France example, blame Bertrand Russell.

EDIT: Also consider the negation of "The present King of France is bald" if we were to just say "that's false." If that's false, the negation is true, so "The present King of France is not bald" is true. Obviously that's not the case either, so it can't be a simple matter. Ryukishi (and others, he's hardly alone in this) get around this by just letting you claim either statement is true, but without any meaning.

[Jan-Poo]

Well I disagree with that, saying that "some cows are brown" in red directly implies that cows exist. Because it affirms the existence of brown cows.

The problem here is that red by definition can only be used for real statements. Stating facts about hypotetical or fictional concepts is forbidden. Or at least it should be forbidden.

Bertrand Russel is not at fault here because his logic works in a contest where there isn't any assumption of realism in the statements.

For example "some cows are lilac" could be a true statement when there isn't anything that forbids me from talking about fictional cows.

[Renall]

Well I disagree with that, saying that "some cows are brown" in red directly implies that cows exist. Because it affirms the existence of brown cows.

The problem here is that red by definition can only be used for real statements. Stating facts about hypotetical or fictional concepts is forbidden. Or at least it should be forbidden.Unfortunately, Umineko appears to permit this. It also allows speculative statements, intent statements, and statements with no possible truth value at all. So why not?

Also bear in mind this only applies in ep5 to descriptive statements about "knocks" themselves, such as sounds made etc. It doesn't apply to a statement like "no one heard a knock" or "no one could have produced a knock." In those cases it wouldn't matter if a knock existed at all. Although in those cases they're still describing an allegedly nonexistent event while sort of implying it happened, but those are more obvious cases of the example.

[Jan-Poo]

But those are claims that deny the existence of purely hypothetical concepts which is absolutely legit to say in red. In fact that's the main purpose of red.


As for making statements about "knocks" it's fine because it isn't hypotetical at all. Knocks exist in Rokkenjima. "Knocks performed by witches" do not.

[Judoh]

But you can say things like this

someone said they saw a brown cow
Some cows are brown
But we don't have any brown cows here

No one would misinterpret a knocking sound
sorry if you misunderstood, but there was no knocking sound

In this case it's not about something that doesn't exist. But the absence of something that can exist, but isn't present in the actual mystery.

I can say some cows are brown til the cows come home. But there are no cows in my yard is also true.

[Renall]

In this case it's not about something that doesn't exist. But the absence of something that can exist, but isn't present in the actual mystery.Something that can exist but doesn't is the same as something that can't exist and doesn't. It's just easier to spot when a statement is being made about it, since the reader will immediately realize it cannot have existed or happened.

A knock could have occurred in ep5, but all evidence and all statements surrounding it suggest it did not. Whether it did or did not, the statements of fact are true. Some are true because they would be true whether the knock occurred or didn't. A few would be true because the truth value of a statement about something that doesn't or didn't exist is essentially meaningless, which Umineko appears to consider to be equivalent to true.

If I can say ahahahahahah in red, I may as well be able to state anything with a meaningless truth value in red too. The difference being, a statement with apparent content has greater capacity to mislead someone than a statement which obviously has none (such as laughter).

[Judoh]

Something that can exist but doesn't is the same as something that can't exist and doesn't. It's just easier to spot when a statement is being made about it, since the reader will immediately realize it cannot have existed or happened.

Probably should have Quoted Jan-Poo.

I was replying to this

"some cows are brown" in red directly implies that cows exist. Because it affirms the existence of brown cows.

I guess what I'm trying to say is. If you talk about something in red, sure it does imply it exists or it happened somewhere, but if you also declare it's not where/when you are that can also be true, and it would be similar to the knock situation.

[Kealym]

At that time, everyone was shocked to see, waiting patiently near the just opened door, an adorable golden cow was there, waiting, with an envelope in it's mouth. "What the hell!" shouted Rudolf, as he cautiously tiptoed over and pulled the envelope from it's mushy maw. "It's from dad..." he says painfully, noting the eagle crest. At the table, they push him to open it, and find a letter from Beatrice acknowledging Battler, and the Head of the Ring as well. The cow blinked lazily and walked out of the dining hall, letting the door close behind it. The adults watched the door for a time, until a soft *click* of a lock turning dismissed the matter. They proceeded to discuss the letter.

Erika : SO, a mysterious golden cow delivers a golden letter from the golden witch! Nonsense, it's just some trick. What next, we'll find all the food on the island has been transmuted into inedible gold nuggets?
Lambda : Oh yeah?! It was just an idea I had, and it was so cute!
Erika : Well anyway, OBVIOUSLY I can doubt whether that was really a cow in the first place - it may have been any matter of fat bovine made to look like a cow.
Lambda : That's true, I don't think I wanna bother defining what a cow is for you.
Erika : In that case, the cow was just two people in a cow suit, used to covertly deliver the letter without revealing themselves.
Lambda : ... fine. 'Cow' refers to a living, large domesticated ungulate commonly raised for milk and meat by humans. And no cow disguise exists on this island.
Erika : The perpetrators burned the disguise as soon as they left the dining hall in it, so of course it wouldn't exist now. This doesn't violate Knox's 10th, right? After all, it was implied that this wasn't a normal cow since it had an unnatural golden coloring, right?
Lamda : Alright, the cow was not two people hiding in a suit.
Erika : So you can say that ... don't worry, I'm just getting started. The cow was an advanced automaton designed for delivering letters. It wouldn't be strange for Krauss, who is an idiot, to invest in a novel attraction like that for his planned Rokkenjijma resort. This is okay, right Dlanor? *giggle*
Knox: ... I SUPPOSE. Notable gear based automata have existed for over a century, and Krauss has not always been lacking in RESOURCES.
Lambda : Marvelous, but will that work for the door locking, though? No cow even touched that door!
Erika : Ha! Repeat it - no more than one moving body was in the hallway after the cow left the dining hall!
Lambda : Tch, I refuse. After all, there's already a cow out there, and I'm obliged to acknowledge the moving clock gears and hands, too. The dust falling from the rafters, the microbes rolling around the carpets!
Bern: Don't you think you're playing around too much? Let's simplify by limiting the definition of "moving bodies" to include only those things that are both visible to the naked human eye and wouldn't typically be defined as "decor" no matter how mechanical it was. There's nothing typical about a large robot cow, right? And despite their claims to the contrary, we'll include Shannon, Kanon and Genji as moving bodies in this definition, too.
Lambda : Ha, sure, sure. After Kratsuhi and Genji moved to the second floor, and until the end of the family conference, no more than one moving body inhabited the Hall at a time.. So that's the cow, but as I already said, it couldn't have locked the door behind itself, riiiiight?
Erika : Indeed, it's not the cow, but the lock that makes this some sort of 3rd rate fantasy.
Dlanor : *lookin g extremely dejected* ... ... ...
Erika : It doesn't matter, though! A cow has already been defined as a living demosticated ungulate, so the 'cow' currently under discussion, the automata, is perfectly able to touch the door and lock it!! At this point we should stop calling it a cow - it'll just be needlessly confusing. Cows are already off the table!
Lambda : Oh no, you caught meeeee. Well, let it be known the dining hall lock can only be locked with an opposable thunb.
Erika : The robot had one.
Lambda : Krauss would never be so foolish as to invest in a cow that had an opposable thumb, even a hidden one he wasn't meant to know about.
Erika : It could have been added later, after his initial inspection! Anyone could have done it! Maybe that's what Kinzo always worked on, locked in his study - going out of his way to undermine his incompetents son every effort!
Lambda : No person has ever existed on Rokkenjima capable of adding ... no, there's an easier way. Only a living being is capable of locking doors on Rokkenjima, excepting Kinzo's personal door
Dlanor : Thank GOODNESS. To follow that reasoning further would brush very uncomfortably against the 4th COMMANDMENT.
Erika : Well, that's hardly a problem. It's possible that after the robot left the outside hall, any other person walked down and locked the door.
Lambda : Pfft, girl please. Neither Natsuhi or Krauss or Genjo even touched that door after going upstairs!
Erika : Tch, are you suggesting the robot cow suddenly turned alive with magic, and sprouted a certainly grotesque human hand with opposable thumb and decided to use it to lock the door behind itself?! Huh?!
Dlanor : AHEM.
Erika : Just kidding, just kidding.
Lambda : Well, magic WAS involved, so ... MAYBE!
Erika : Requesting definition - does "that door" even refer to the whole thing? You might only mean the wood panelling, and exclude the locking mechanism, the hinges, or the decorative leaf that's only "on the door".
Lambda : Of course, I don't like word games, so-
Bern : *breaks down laughing*
Lambda : ... so, "that door" refers to everything you just mentioned - the panel, the hinges, lock, frame, and any decorative elements. The locking mechanism can only be operated with an opposable thumb. And allow me to add that the locking sound it makes is very distinctive and would not be mistaken.
Erika : Grrr... but wait, it was only said they heard "A lock" not "that specific lock", right?! The only people in the dining hall were relatives that didn't live on Rokkenjima, so they may have thought any locking noise was the appropriate one for that door, in their ignorance!
Lambda : I already said I dislike word games, right?! So for your i-
Bern : *is literally crying laughing*
Lambda : So for your impudence, I'll have to kick it up a notch, girlie. THERE IS DEFINITELY AN AUTOMATA COW ON THIS ROKKENJIMA, DON'T BE MISTAKEN.
Dlanor : Daaaaayumn.

[Jan-Poo]

I guess what I'm trying to say is. If you talk about something in red, sure it does imply it exists or it happened somewhere, but if you also declare it's not where/when you are that can also be true, and it would be similar to the knock situation.

Then what about "some cows are lilac" then? Is it possible to state that in red because some lilac fictional cows exist or is it impossible because for that red to be effective there must be real lilac cows somewhere?

And to inquire further:

Let's take:

"The purple dragon that lives in the forest doesn't exist"

I suppose there's nothing wrong with saying that in red. Then what about:

"The dragon that lives in the forest isn't purple."

Is that legit to say it?
And going further down you get:

"The dragon that lives in the forest is purple."

And this last statement is hardly possible to justify in red, but according to Renall's logic it should be perfectly possible to say it in red according to the rules in Umineko because since a dragon that lives in the forest doesn't exist in the first place the statement is devoid of any meaning.

[Renall]

You're not saying it does exist, you're saying "the dragon that lives in the forest" is purple. No such dragon exists, so it isn't purple or not purple, so it's meaningless and the statement can be true.

If "lives in the forest" is intended to be a profession of existence, then it's false.

[RandomAvatarFan]

Then what about "some cows are lilac" then? Is it possible to state that in red because some lilac fictional cows exist or is it impossible because for that red to be effective there must be real lilac cows somewhere?

I've never seen a purple cow.
And I never hope to see one.
But I'll tell you any how.
You can't disprove the existence of some undiscovered Cow X.

I really don't think that you can say that something that does not exist "is" something, which is what Renall is saying. Granted, I'm not sure I've completely grasped what it is he's trying to say. It's a "both" thing like the cat in the box is "both alive and dead," which I have troubles with.

To a mind like mine, it makes sense for you to be able to say The purple dragon does not exist. or even The purple dragon is not purple. , but it doesn't make sense to be able to say "The purple dragon is purple." because I would say it has to be in a state of being in order for the dragon to perform the verb "is".

[Judoh]

At that time, everyone was shocked to see, waiting patiently near the just opened door, an adorable golden cow was there, waiting, with an envelope in it's mouth. "What the hell!" shouted Rudolf, as he cautiously tiptoed over and pulled the envelope from it's mushy maw. "It's from dad..." he says painfully, noting the eagle crest. At the table, they push him to open it, and find a letter from Beatrice acknowledging Battler, and the Head of the Ring as well. The cow blinked lazily and walked out of the dining hall, letting the door close behind it. The adults watched the door for a time, until a soft *click* of a lock turning dismissed the matter. They proceeded to discuss the letter.

Erika : SO, a mysterious golden cow delivers a golden letter from the golden witch! Nonsense, it's just some trick. What next, we'll find all the food on the island has been transmuted into inedible gold nuggets?
Lambda : Oh yeah?! It was just an idea I had, and it was so cute!
Erika : Well anyway, OBVIOUSLY I can doubt whether that was really a cow in the first place - it may have been any matter of fat bovine made to look like a cow.
Lambda : That's true, I don't think I wanna bother defining what a cow is for you.
Erika : In that case, the cow was just two people in a cow suit, used to covertly deliver the letter without revealing themselves.
Lambda : ... fine. 'Cow' refers to a living, large domesticated ungulate commonly raised for milk and meat by humans. And no cow disguise exists on this island.
Erika : The perpetrators burned the disguise as soon as they left the dining hall in it, so of course it wouldn't exist now. This doesn't violate Knox's 10th, right? After all, it was implied that this wasn't a normal cow since it had an unnatural golden coloring, right?
Lamda : Alright, the cow was not two people hiding in a suit.
Erika : So you can say that ... don't worry, I'm just getting started. The cow was an advanced automaton designed for delivering letters. It wouldn't be strange for Krauss, who is an idiot, to invest in a novel attraction like that for his planned Rokkenjijma resort. This is okay, right Dlanor? *giggle*
Knox: ... I SUPPOSE. Notable gear based automata have existed for over a century, and Krauss has not always been lacking in RESOURCES.
Lambda : Marvelous, but will that work for the door locking, though? No cow even touched that door!
Erika : Ha! Repeat it - no more than one moving body was in the hallway after the cow left the dining hall!
Lambda : Tch, I refuse. After all, there's already a cow out there, and I'm obliged to acknowledge the moving clock gears and hands, too. The dust falling from the rafters, the microbes rolling around the carpets!
Bern: Don't you think you're playing around too much? Let's simplify by limiting the definition of "moving bodies" to include only those things that are both visible to the naked human eye and wouldn't typically be defined as "decor" no matter how mechanical it was. There's nothing typical about a large robot cow, right? And despite their claims to the contrary, we'll include Shannon, Kanon and Genji as moving bodies in this definition, too.
Lambda : Ha, sure, sure. After Kratsuhi and Genji moved to the second floor, and until the end of the family conference, no more than one moving body inhabited the Hall at a time.. So that's the cow, but as I already said, it couldn't have locked the door behind itself, riiiiight?
Erika : Indeed, it's not the cow, but the lock that makes this some sort of 3rd rate fantasy.
Dlanor : *lookin g extremely dejected* ... ... ...
Erika : It doesn't matter, though! A cow has already been defined as a living demosticated ungulate, so the 'cow' currently under discussion, the automata, is perfectly able to touch the door and lock it!! At this point we should stop calling it a cow - it'll just be needlessly confusing. Cows are already off the table!
Lambda : Oh no, you caught meeeee. Well, let it be known the dining hall lock can only be locked with an opposable thunb.
Erika : The robot had one.
Lambda : Krauss would never be so foolish as to invest in a cow that had an opposable thumb, even a hidden one he wasn't meant to know about.
Erika : It could have been added later, after his initial inspection! Anyone could have done it! Maybe that's what Kinzo always worked on, locked in his study - going out of his way to undermine his incompetents son every effort!
Lambda : No person has ever existed on Rokkenjima capable of adding ... no, there's an easier way. Only a living being is capable of locking doors on Rokkenjima, excepting Kinzo's personal door
Dlanor : Thank GOODNESS. To follow that reasoning further would brush very uncomfortably against the 4th COMMANDMENT.
Erika : Well, that's hardly a problem. It's possible that after the robot left the outside hall, any other person walked down and locked the door.
Lambda : Pfft, girl please. Neither Natsuhi or Krauss or Genjo even touched that door after going upstairs!
Erika : Tch, are you suggesting the robot cow suddenly turned alive with magic, and sprouted a certainly grotesque human hand with opposable thumb and decided to use it to lock the door behind itself?! Huh?!
Dlanor : AHEM.
Erika : Just kidding, just kidding.
Lambda : Well, magic WAS involved, so ... MAYBE!
Erika : Requesting definition - does "that door" even refer to the whole thing? You might only mean the wood panelling, and exclude the locking mechanism, the hinges, or the decorative leaf that's only "on the door".
Lambda : Of course, I don't like word games, so-
Bern : *breaks down laughing*
Lambda : ... so, "that door" refers to everything you just mentioned - the panel, the hinges, lock, frame, and any decorative elements. The locking mechanism can only be operated with an opposable thumb. And allow me to add that the locking sound it makes is very distinctive and would not be mistaken.
Erika : Grrr... but wait, it was only said they heard "A lock" not "that specific lock", right?! The only people in the dining hall were relatives that didn't live on Rokkenjima, so they may have thought any locking noise was the appropriate one for that door, in their ignorance!
Lambda : I already said I dislike word games, right?! So for your i-
Bern : *is literally crying laughing*
Lambda : So for your impudence, I'll have to kick it up a notch, girlie. THERE IS DEFINITELY AN AUTOMATA COW ON THIS ROKKENJIMA, DON'T BE MISTAKEN.
Dlanor : Daaaaayumn.

how now, brown cow?


Then what about "some cows are lilac" then? Is it possible to state that in red because some lilac fictional cows exist or is it impossible because for that red to be effective there must be real lilac cows somewhere

The way I see it is it's how the person intended the statement's meaning that makes it true or not. If by "some cows are lilac" you mean that cows that are lilac exist, and they don't exist, then it's false.

if you mean it from a fictional perspective. It might be true if you're talking about a fictional world, or if you're a character that lives in the fictional world and you believe that ,but you might also have to add more to the sentence for it to be valid.

Like so: the hero, lives on the planet poptart, where there are lush, pink, meadows, green skies, and where some cows are Lilac

[Jan-Poo]

You're not saying it does exist, you're saying "the dragon that lives in the forest" is purple. No such dragon exists, so it isn't purple or not purple, so it's meaningless and the statement can be true.

If "lives in the forest" is intended to be a profession of existence, then it's false.

I think it is an outright lie to state that something is purple if it doesn't exist. If it doesn't exist that's neither purple nor anything, it's colorless.

if you mean it from a fictional perspective. It might be true if you're talking about a fictional world, or if you're a character that lives in the fictional world and you believe that ,but you might also have to add more to the sentence for it to be valid.

Like so: the hero, lives on the planet poptart, where there are lush, pink, meadows, green skies, and where some cows are Lilac


If you could make use of a red related to fictions not related to the game in a game without any notice it would be pointless. I think we should exclude that possibility as any other justification we came up with strange reds would be completely meaningless. The "this red is related to some other non specified fiction X" would explain everything.
But it would also mean that red truths have absolutely no value.

[Renall]

I think it is an outright lie to state that something is purple if it doesn't exist. If it doesn't exist that's neither purple nor anything, it's colorless.It's not colorless either. It doesn't exist. "It's purple" is false. But so is "it isn't purple." That's the logical conundrum. It's an amusing philosophical question, not a lie.

The question is, was Ryukishi using it? I'd say no, not intentionally. If it comes up it's just accidental and tangential to what he was trying to do.

[Jan-Poo]

It's not colorless either. It doesn't exist. "It's purple" is false. But so is "it isn't purple."

I disagree, "it isn't purple" is correct. Let's say a madman founds a new "religion" and claims "Blipdoolpoolp is almighty!", "Blipdoolpoolp is all knowing!", "Blipdoolpoolp is the only true goddess!"
Saying that "Blipdoolpoolp isn't almighty, Blipdoolpoolp isn't all knowing, Blipdoolpoolp isn't a goddess at all, Blipdoolpoolp doesn't exist" is a perfectly acceptable and correct reply.


Your interpretation is bordering with a non congnitivist philosophy, and that's quite debatable in my opinion. You are falling in the same philosphical fluff that defies common sense that you criticized in Haguruma.

[GreyZone]

There is an easy way to solve all of this... Everything Erika did not see with her own eyes is a lie, until the scene itself in its whole presentation is proven by a definite red. But even if Erika is present, there may be blind spots where a fake scenery is created by the game master.

[RandomAvatarFan]

GreyZone.... let's take it a step further. It's fake scenery created by the Reader. Isn't this that one of the points that we made in this debate: how the red was being used to pull smoke over our eyes? Even though the red is completely and utterly true (like Erika's EP5 perspective) what is in our "blind spots" we just assume (like the door to the Chapel in EP2 was locked) Kind of like how our brains "assume" what it sees in your actual blind spots. This is things like the the "lock of the Golden Truth" or whatever Will said in EP7. It's not a representation of the GameMaster vs Challenged that's going on, but a representation of Author vs. Reader.

Now that I'm thinking about Reader Theory, I remember a lot of people complaining about Kanon being in the room once Erika gathered everyone together.... but it can be explained using Reader Theory. The Reader reads "everyone was gathered" and imagines Shannon standing on one side of the room and Kanon on the other. What we were seeing was the Reader's infuence. It still violates a more pure form of Knox's 8th though =/

[GuestSpeaker]

Ah thanks Renall, that does make sense. Though I don't remember ep 5 addressed these empty truths you are talking about.

Then again, I don't remember Usagi's laugh either.

In that logic it's just forum rules beyond anything else that prevents posting a link to a software that isn't legal.

Actually, what I had previously thought was that unless Alchemist released an English PSP or PS3 version (which I thought they didn't) then the patch the post was referring to was either some fan's translation (unlikely since we know how tough it was for you guys) or that they used your translation script and adapted it. Now I know it just changes graphics though. The money comment was me saying I wasn't worried about stealing from you guys since I already bought both games.

Also I apologise for calling them 'better graphic versions', I am just not sure if they were ported with a new name. It might have been rondo or something

None of the characters misidentified a knocking sound.
That was not the red used however

To structure it more closely with the Japanese formulation, perhaps, but grammatically there's no real difference in English. I was careful with my formulations to refer to everything as directly as possible, e.g. "the space aliens in the hallway" are a singular descriptive unit of a nonexistent entity, not an assertion that the aliens do actually exist there. It's just misleading.

I would have to say that the way Jan-Poo structured it made the red possible without delving into the specifics in logic, the grammar is actually important.

no one caused the knock

And yet no human alive or dead could have killed Kanon.

[unsuspectingvisitor]

About the knock, there another answer I can think of.

The knock that they heard came from the cassette tape just like what Erika suggested in her blue truth. The red truth about misinterpreting the knock was just a dirty trick so that Erika will dropped the idea of a recorded knock. I still don't get it myself but I'll try to explain. That red truth about misinterpreting a knock is just a farce. Noone inside the dining hall misinterpret the knock as a real knock because when Kanon opened the door, He didn't see anyone on the hallway. It was said by Lambda that the real knock she was talking about was a direct knock. It's when a human knock directly on the door. The hallway was empty and It was even said in red that noone except the three people on the second floor and those people in the dining hall existed inside the mansion at that time. There's also this red truth.
"In short, this means it was impossible for any character within the mansion to be the source of a knocking SOUND. ......And 'any character' refers even to unobserved people that no one has noticed."
This means that the knock that they heard didn't come from a human knocking directly on the door of the dining hall. It came from something else so there's no way that they would misinterpret it as a real knock.
That's why I think the sound that they heard was a recorded knock playing from a cassette tape and not a real knock at all.

[Kealym]

The knock that they heard came from the cassette tape just like what Erika suggested in her blue truth. The red truth about misinterpreting the knock was just a dirty trick so that Erika will dropped the idea of a recorded knock.
Oho, I hadn't thought of that. I agree - Erika blue truth that Somebody outside the mansion (herself, George, Jessica, Maria, Kumasawa, Nanjo, or Godha) arranged for a recording of a knock to play should still be valid. It would mean the people in the mansion HEARD the knocking noise, but due to the red truth, could tell that it was fake.

So they heard it, and would've been like "Where is that recording of a knock sound coming from?" or something like that. There are two issues still present, though. The first is that Erika's truth about the knock failed to account for the letter as well. The knocking sound is allegedly how they found the letter.

The second problem is that this view is still along the lines of people lying, or the scene containing blatant falsehood. In the scene, everyone responded to the knock as though it were real, and presumably reported it as such to Erika later when she gathered her detailed account of the nights events. Sooo, "everyone heard a knocking sound, but knew it was fake" still seems much more complex than necessary, over there was no knock at all.

Also, about the nature of meaningless red statements that's been going on ... well, I can accept that a lot of really shady things can probably be said in red (though I'm agreeing much much more with Jan-Poo than Renall here), in the context of the narrative, the human side HAS always had the right to ask for clarification of meaning and intent. That could POTENTIALLY be an eternal check as the two sides quibble over semantics endlessly ("Oh no,I was using 'key' to mean 'ancient babylonian language ciphers!"), but thankfully Ryu never takes it that far, 'cause it'd be annoying and boring.

how now, brown cow?
At least two people on this Rokkenjima KNOW about the robot cow, too!

[GreyZone]

About the knock, there another answer I can think of.

The knock that they heard came from the cassette tape just like what Erika suggested in her blue truth. The red truth about misinterpreting the knock was just a dirty trick so that Erika will dropped the idea of a recorded knock. I still don't get it myself but I'll try to explain. That red truth about misinterpreting a knock is just a farce. Noone inside the dining hall misinterpret the knock as a real knock because when Kanon opened the door, He didn't see anyone on the hallway. It was said by Lambda that the real knock she was talking about was a direct knock. It's when a human knock directly on the door. The hallway was empty and It was even said in red that noone except the three people on the second floor and those people in the dining hall existed inside the mansion at that time. There's also this red truth.
"In short, this means it was impossible for any character within the mansion to be the source of a knocking SOUND. ......And 'any character' refers even to unobserved people that no one has noticed."
This means that the knock that they heard didn't come from a human knocking directly on the door of the dining hall. It came from something else so there's no way that they would misinterpret it as a real knock.
That's why I think the sound that they heard was a recorded knock playing from a cassette tape and not a real knock at all.

Was such a recorder ever mentioned in EP5, aside from when Erika suggested it? Because if not, then it violates Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented.

[GuestSpeaker]

Was such a recorder ever mentioned in EP5

For the first time ever the adults turned on a cassette player or something to make sure there was a record of the conversation and what was said for later, it was mentioned earlier.

[Renall]

Your interpretation is bordering with a non congnitivist philosophy, and that's quite debatable in my opinion. You are falling in the same philosphical fluff that defies common sense that you criticized in Haguruma.It has nothing to do with that and everything to do with logic. Not "logic the thing you use to think" but "logic the proposition-testing system of philosophy." I agree with you that a nonexistent thing doesn't have a color. But, formally, any statement about the properties of something whose properties cannot be observed or asserted conclusively can't simply be dismissed as false, because it would make its negation true, and its negation isn't true either. This is part of what Russell was talking about; normally, if we say the cow isn't brown, then we know the negation is true that the cow is some color other than brown. The cow exists, and we can verify that statement, so we don't run into any problems. And even when speaking abstractly about things that exist, we know we at least could test them, so we know that either the proposition is true or its negation is true.

The whole issue crops up when you're discussing a thing that isn't. If a knock really happens, then you can describe what the knock was and wasn't with ease. But if a knock doesn't happen, how can you describe it? It's like the old "what is the sound of one hand clapping?" koan. You can't describe what it sounds like, but at the same time you can't describe what it doesn't sound like, because it's impossible (well, it actually isn't impossible... but you know what I and the ancient philosophers mean).

However, describing how people would react to a thing that isn't is still perfectly fine, since you can just negate it to the case of how they wouldn't react since the thing didn't happen. So most of the stuff about the knock never runs up against this because it talks about what people did or didn't do or would or wouldn't do if a knock did happen or was made, which it is never actually stated that it is.

It is implied, but rereading the red I think this is a translation issue and LyricalAura is correct that the definite article "the" should be stripped from any red about "a knock." You can easily rewrite every red about the knock with "a knock" or "a knocking sound" instead of "the knock," thus entirely decoupling the notion that Lambda was ever even suggesting it was an actual event (existent or otherwise) from the text as presented.Also, about the nature of meaningless red statements that's been going on ... well, I can accept that a lot of really shady things can probably be said in red (though I'm agreeing much much more with Jan-Poo than Renall here), in the context of the narrative, the human side HAS always had the right to ask for clarification of meaning and intent. That could POTENTIALLY be an eternal check as the two sides quibble over semantics endlessly ("Oh no,I was using 'key' to mean 'ancient babylonian language ciphers!"), but thankfully Ryu never takes it that far, 'cause it'd be annoying and boring.Yes, the human side has the right to ask for it. They just don't unless it's convenient for the author. That's part of the frustration I have with the story. Especially in Dawn, where Erika obsessively asks for clarification of every detail and definition until at some point she just stops doing that even though it would help her.

[unsuspectingvisitor]

Oho, I hadn't thought of that. I agree - Erika blue truth that Somebody outside the mansion (herself, George, Jessica, Maria, Kumasawa, Nanjo, or Godha) arranged for a recording of a knock to play should still be valid. It would mean the people in the mansion HEARD the knocking noise, but due to the red truth, could tell that it was fake.

So they heard it, and would've been like "Where is that recording of a knock sound coming from?" or something like that. There are two issues still present, though. The first is that Erika's truth about the knock failed to account for the letter as well. The knocking sound is allegedly how they found the letter.

The second problem is that this view is still along the lines of people lying, or the scene containing blatant falsehood. In the scene, everyone responded to the knock as though it were real, and presumably reported it as such to Erika later when she gathered her detailed account of the nights events. Sooo, "everyone heard a knocking sound, but knew it was fake" still seems much more complex than necessary, over there was no knock at all.

I didn't say that Erika's blue truth was still valid. I'm just saying that she got the recorded knock thing right. Her blue truth was shot down because she thought it was someone from outside the mansion who setup the cassette tape , she didn't even suspected those inside the mansion.

there's a possibility that they interpreted the sound after the incident. It just wouldn't make sense at all that they can figured out it was a recorded tape the instant they heard the knocking sounds. It's only natural for them to suspect that someone was knocking behind the door because the knocking sound came from the door or atleast near the door and they didn't know yet the whereabouts of everyone inside the mansion at that time. So they will still suspect that someone other than the people inside the dining hall knock. But they found out afterwards that no one

Kanon and Shannon setup the cassette tape and since Lambda said in red that no one inside the mansion placed the letter in the hallway then the letter wasn't in the hallway to begin with. Kanon just lied about finding the letter.

I don't like that solution where everyone lied about the whole incident just to troll on Erika. It not a fantasy scene because we didn't see any Golden Butterflies around or any fantasy creature. Why didn't Lambda shown us a scene where Beatrice was knocking behind the door and placing the letter then? It would make more sense to me since we can see her hanging around Natsuhi Alot of times in this episode. But If by chance that everyone lied, how can you explain that scene where everyone looked at the door if the knock didn't happened at all?

[Renall]

Actually, it'd be quite easy to tell the difference between a physical knock and a recorded knock. In an old mansion-style house with heavy wooden doors, a real knock will resonate quite deeply through the wood, causing a perceptible thump that a tape recording will be able to replicate only in sound (since the tape won't cause the door to vibrate). So the idea that no one would mistake a real knock for a recorded one is fairly sound. Even a layman would be able to sense immediately that they were not witnessing an actual knock.

The question then I guess would be why lie about it.

[Kealym]

I didn't say that Erika's blue truth was still valid. I'm just saying that she got the recorded knock thing right. Her blue truth was shot down because she thought it was someone from outside the mansion who setup the cassette tape , she didn't even suspected those inside the mansion.

there's a possibility that they interpreted the sound after the incident. It just wouldn't make sense at all that they can figured out it was a recorded tape the instant they heard the knocking sounds. It's only natural for them to suspect that someone was knocking behind the door because the knocking sound came from the door or atleast near the door and they didn't know yet the whereabouts of everyone inside the mansion at that time. So they will still suspect that someone other than the people inside the dining hall knock. But they found out afterwards that no one

Kanon and Shannon setup the cassette tape and since Lambda said in red that no one inside the mansion placed the letter in the hallway then the letter wasn't in the hallway to begin with. Kanon just lied about finding the letter.

I don't like that solution where everyone lied about the whole incident just to troll on Erika. It not a fantasy scene because we didn't see any Golden Butterflies around or any fantasy creature. Why didn't Lambda shown us a scene where Beatrice was knocking behind the door and placing the letter then? It would make more sense to me since we can see her hanging around Natsuhi Alot of times in this episode. But If by chance that everyone lied, how can you explain that scene where everyone looked at the door if the knock didn't happened at all?
I'm not sure I follow - her blue truth is still potentially valid, she just stopped supporting it after a misleading red. It's almost as if she said "Kinzo is in this room!", recieved "Kinzo isn't under the bed!" as a response, and for some reason went "Oh, I guess he isn't in the room after all."

Also, Erika DID suspect those inside the mansion - she investigated them first. In response, she got :
Neither Krauss nor Natsuhi nor Genji knocked!
This isn't the limited meaning of them knocking on the door, okay? It means they didn't use a pillar to transmit the sound or push the play button on a cassette tape they'd recorded or create that knock sound by any means! Of course, this applies to direct, indirect, intentional, coincidental, and unintentional means!
Let it be known that at 24:00, except for Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji in the second floor corridor and all of the people in the dining hall, no humans existed inside the mansion.
Let it be known that in addition to Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji, none of those in the dining hall made the knock. In this sense, 'knock' includes all direct, indirect, intentional, unintentional, and coincidental events that could create a knocking sound.
In short, this means it was impossible for any character within the mansion to be the source of a knocking SOUND. ......And 'any character' refers even to unobserved people that no one has noticed.

Which altogether amounts to, more or less, "you cannot be inside the mansion AND produce a knocking noise of any sort", which is why she just hopped to suspecting the Guesthouse group. Furthermore, there are plenty, PLENTY of scenes that tell misleading narratives that don't involve golden butterflies, or Beatrice doing something hugely magical. And I wouldn't personally say it was "just to troll Erika", either. I've always thought End was a mostly broken/incomplete game, anyways, and is intentionally nonsensical in places.

Also, while "everyone lied" isn't really the most ... elegant of solutions, it's hard to deny that it's sort of Beato's M.O. There's precedence, at least for that. I agree that it's worth questioning why they would've lied about it ... but I'd also say it's worth noting that nobody ever brings it up again ever. XD

[Thunder Book]

I don't think so much thought has ever been put into a knock on a door before, nor will there be ever again. XD

[Wanderer]

And even when speaking abstractly about things that exist, we know we at least could test them, so we know that either the proposition is true or its negation is true.

Well, you can also sidestep the problem by saying that descriptions of non-existent things (beyond asserting their non-existence) are an exception in that they are always false regardless of the typical dynamic between the proposition and it's negation.

But can you define the rules of logic arbitrarily (i.e. is there more than one rules set for logic?)? It's hard for me to wrap my head around the idea.

It is implied, but rereading the red I think this is a translation issue and LyricalAura is correct

Yes, she is. Although the letter is actually referred to as "that letter", (which is not a translation issue), so evidently at least "that letter" actually existed.

Especially in Dawn, where Erika obsessively asks for clarification of every detail and definition until at some point she just stops doing that even though it would help her.

Sometimes I wonder if it's just because Erika couldn't go any deeper, by the limits of her very nature. Basically, she's got a brain for "Mystery", but ShKanon isn't really Mystery so she can't comprehend it.

Also, while "everyone lied" isn't really the most ... elegant of solutions, it's hard to deny that it's sort of Beato's M.O.

Although in this case Beato's not the GM.

The clock tampering idea for the knock is totally cool, and would be a better solution if it was just that one puzzle by itself, but for the FT murders there aren't better options over mass lying by mostly the same set of people who were at the conference. Well, at least that I know of. I would certainly like to hear one.

I have to say though, it seems clear to me that RK07 went out of his way to not confirm in red either that there really was a knock in the first place or that the hypothetical knock actually occurred at midnight. Interesting, that.

[Jan-Poo]

the cow isn't brown, then we know the negation is true that the cow is some color other than brown. The cow exists, and we can verify that statement, so we don't run into any problems. And even when speaking abstractly about things that exist, we know we at least could test them, so we know that either the proposition is true or its negation is true.

But wait are you really sure about that?
To me this sounds the same as stating that if I say "Mark doesn't have a degree in astrophisics" then the statement "Mark has a degree in something other than astrophisics" is true.
I think that this example makes clear that there is fallacy here and that's the assumption that the negation of a specific quality of the degree the subject has implies that he still has a degree of a different quality. But we cannot deduce that by the original negation at all since the possibility that Mark has no degree at all exists.

The case of the cow you mentioned is tricky because you already know by previous knowledge that a cow must have a color. However suppose you are an artificial intelligence with absolutely no knowledge of the concept of cows. Could you logically make that deduction? I think not.

At any rate if we do not possess the information of whether the cow exists or not then assuming that it must have a color is wrong. Which by extension means that in front of the sentence the cow isn't brown we cannot deduce that a cow that might or might not exist must have a color other than brown.

[unsuspectingvisitor]

I can't argue with those red truth it's rock solid. I'll give up arguing for now.

There's still another riddle that needed to be solve other than the letter and the knock though. It's during the time when Natsuhi was talking with the man from 19 years ago on the phone that night. Who was talking to her anyway? I thought it was Shkanon at first but it's seems unlikely that it's him because he was stuck on the dining hall until 1:00. The call supposed to happened after 12:00 But at that time Shkanon was inside th dining hall. I admit I don't get it all so I want to know what you guys think.

[Drifloon]

Considering that everyone in the dining hall seems to be in on the conspiracy to frame Natsuhi, there's no problem with them letting Shkanon leave for the phone call and then lying about them staying in the room the whole time.

[Renall]

The case of the cow you mentioned is tricky because you already know by previous knowledge that a cow must have a color. However suppose you are an artificial intelligence with absolutely no knowledge of the concept of cows. Could you logically make that deduction? I think not.

At any rate if we do not possess the information of whether the cow exists or not then assuming that it must have a color is wrong. Which by extension means that in front of the sentence the cow isn't brown we cannot deduce that a cow that might or might not exist must have a color other than brown.You're being pedantic, but technically correct. The proper negation is probably along the lines of "the cow is a color other than brown or no color." The point is, the negation of a statement always has a truth value opposite the truth value of the original statement. So if "the cow is brown" is false, then "the cow is some color other than brown or colorless" must be true.

The problem with talking about the First Man on Mars is that saying it was a man from China is equally as incorrect as saying it wasn't a man from China, which at least appears to violate the notion that the negation of a statement has the opposite truth value. You could address this in several ways, either by declaring all such statements true but meaningless, declaring them all false, or just saying you can't make logical statements about something with undefined properties. An AI would probably choose the lattermost, determining that it cannot make a judgment about an entity which has not been initialized and for which it has no data. Basically it would error out, which is probably the best way to think about it.

[GreyZone]

I try to show another example: Imagine the following in EP3 being said by Beatrice:

"Neither I nor my teacher have used Jetpacks or any other device that lets us take off into the air for an aerial battle! And no swords, spears, bows, arrows, cannons and gunpower created out of any kind of wood, stone, metal or platic were used. Also No 'towers' were prebuild into the garden. This refers to any wooden, stone, metal, plastic, mechanic, or electric towers. It was created out of a magical material after all ♥ ♥ ♥. Try to explain our battle now with human tricks, Batora (ahaha.wav)"

This also works! See how easy it is?

[Kealym]

Sometimes I wonder if it's just because Erika couldn't go any deeper, by the limits of her very nature. Basically, she's got a brain for "Mystery", but ShKanon isn't really Mystery so she can't comprehend it.
I always thought that Lambda blatantly "cheated" by giving Kanon a body in EP5, and Battler trolled Erika in EP6, using her false impression of the matter by switching back to regular Shkanon. This works for me doubly because Erika is aware of EP1-4 too, and Shkanon is never a necessary element in solving those.

Although in this case Beato's not the GM.
True. Maybe, like the magic circles in the cousins room, Lambda was taking something typically attributed to Beato, and ramped it up to 11, into absurdity? I try not to take the knock/letter riddle too seriously, because similar to the cheese riddle and the coin/cup riddle, I assume Ryu was illustrating a point about how our logic works with red statements. Clock tampering would be cooler.

Considering that everyone in the dining hall seems to be in on the conspiracy to frame Natsuhi, there's no problem with them letting Shkanon leave for the phone call and then lying about them staying in the room the whole time.
Yeah pretty much. Though this has led to the (amusing?) mental image of the other siblings attempting to subdue Krauss to the Benny Hill theme a bit later.

[haguruma]

Also, while "everyone lied" isn't really the most ... elegant of solutions, it's hard to deny that it's sort of Beato's M.O. There's precedence, at least for that. I agree that it's worth questioning why they would've lied about it ... but I'd also say it's worth noting that nobody ever brings it up again ever. XD
I started thinking about this again, because it really bothered me how this (through Forgery No.XXX explained away) plotline is still of such importance to the discussion and why it bothers me so much that people can't let it go.
I found at least one aspect and that is, that almost nobody here seems to consider other reasons why this farce was possible to be created on the gameboard of EP5 beyond "trolling Erika". It was EP5 which highlighted how a piece can only act in accordance to its own physical and mental capabilities, so what reasons could be behind the pieces in the dining room acting out this scene?

1) We know from EP1-4 that the letter is created by Beatrice (which is to a 99% chance Yasu) and that it is supposed to be handed over in the rosegarden, but everything seems to be alright (according to Forgery No.XXX and in parts EP2) as long as it reaches the family members before or during the family conference.
2) Battler in this case has found the gold and should therefore have fulfilled the demands for the game to end.
3) The threat of the bomb still exists which is proven by the explosion happening in this Kakera as well.
4) We know that the ring of the family head is in Yasu's possession
4a) In EP3 we saw that when "Beatrice" hands over the ring of the family head, she also passes the title, obligations and powers of Beatrice over to the person who received it.
4b) Battler receives the ring of the family head during the knock and letter incident.

So what they are actually covering with the often discussed veil is not only any knock that might or might not have occurred, but the identity of the person who handed the ring over to them in dining hall.
Had they actually confessed to the fact that it was Kanon or Shannon who delivered the letters, it would have been quite obvious that their and ONLY their story is in danger of being a lie (this being the story that Black Battler dictates to Kanon in Forgery No.XXX "Go to the parents and tell them there was a knock on the servants room's door."). But by agreeing on the fact that this letter appeared not only without anybodies action in front of the dining hall, but also accompanied by a knock that nobody could have made, they cast the veil of uncertainty over the true source of the events.
This is further important because the possessor of the ring also is destined to have knowledge about Kinzô's life and death status, about his possible demise and is (in the eyes of an outside observer) quite possibly connected to a crime or even several crimes.

What very probably many small parties did not notice is, that while their individual actions did provide alibis for certain people or excluded people from the range of suspects, all combined created an impossible scenario.
We only know of all combined effects because of our meta view and because of our access to the red truth, something that the pieces on the board do not have access to.

So we can probably assume that there was a party intending to confine Natsuhi to a single spot, but maybe also a party who wanted to scare her into confessing to Kinzô's death (who else could have placed the ring that belonged to Kinzô in the hall, according to the knowledge of the people who were in the dining hall the whole time) by framing her as the only possible culprit for murder.
Only for the second reason's party is there an actual need to exclude any other potential intruders onto that scene. So it is not unlikely that this what Eva did with Erika's help when she sealed the servant's room with Genji inside and counting on the fact that nobody could enter the mansion from that point on due to Erika's help.
But that leaves another party, which confined Natsuhi to a single location, but made it for us (the outside observer) impossible for her to be the culprit. That party was basically just two people, Genji who informed her of the call from the mysterious man in the first place and the caller himself. If we assume that this caller is Yasu (Shkannon) he should have had ample time during the planing of the Natsuhi-framing party in the dining hall, to place this call.
The two parties only had to work in direct connection of each others actions during the murder of Hideyoshi, when Natsuhi was supposed to be confined to a crime scene, as the events so far did not appear to have the assumed impact to break her.

We know that the parents want to get the truth about Kinzô out of Natsuhi and Krauss.
We know from EP1 that Yasu has the potential capability to hurt Natsuhi (emotionally and physically).

Proceeding from this point it is actually not unlikely to assume that the "breaking of Natsuhi" lead to an actual murder or a chain of terrible incidents in which the people who played dead actually died (see EP6) and so we get a reason to why the island should be blown up in the end, even though the gold was found.

Just a proposition of course.

[RandomAvatarFan]

I always thought that Lambda blatantly "cheated" by giving Kanon a body in EP5, and Battler trolled Erika in EP6, using her false impression of the matter by switching back to regular Shkanon. This works for me doubly because Erika is aware of EP1-4 too, and Shkanon is never a necessary element in solving those.


Lambdadelta gave Kanon a body? http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4258388&postcount=29698 Maybe *you* gave Kanon a body in EP5

[Asuka0NK]

I finally actually reached something. Yasu is NOT the man from 19 years ago that is heard in Ep 5 (Yasu is still the baby who fell off the cliff though). The real man from 19 years ago is GEORGE!!! Okay not really but it would sorta make sense with everything he does. Getting revenge for Shannon also since Natsuhi tells Shannon her favorite season is fall and she may have told George this. Anyway my reasons for thinking that Shannon isn't the man is because he is far far too cruel to Natsuhi. Yasu wouldn't torture Natsuhi like that no matter what. Whenever Natsuhi is a victim to Yasu she always dies on the the First Twilight (Natsuhi was supposed to die on the first Twilight in ep 1 but she had a scorpion pendent.) My second piece of evidence is that Natsuhi's family doesn't die until she is dead. Krauss and Natsuhi were supposed to die together in Ep 1 and Jessica isn't killed in this arc. In ep 2 Krauss and Natushi die together and Jessica dies later. Ep 3 doesn't count. Ep 4 Natsuhi dies and Jessica/Krauss die later. Only Ep 5 breaks this with killing Krauss before Natsuhi. So I don't believe that Yasu is the caller it is someone close to Yasu that cares for her enough to actually do this and as we all know.
Battler isn't the culprit and I think Natsuhi would've recognized Jessica's voice. So this only leaves George.

[RandomAvatarFan]

It's interesting that you brought up the scorpian charm in EP1. Did you know those scratch marks were found on her door in other Episodes too? What makes you so sure that Natsuhi being dead = her family being dead? And then looking for evidence, you skip a chapter saying it doesn't count, even though you can still replace EVA with Yasutrice.

Yasu's feelings towards the cousins may have been the reason why the children survive in EP1, which has nothing to do with Natsuhi. We may even suspect that Natsuhi of EP1 was going through similar things like Natsuhi of EP5, like the letter in EP1's ninth twilight.

It's an interesting theory though, because you imply that George knows of Shannon's true identity and issues, and still feels like he has to help her somehow. But George seems even less like the kind of person who would harass someone the way he did. He'd be willing to stand up for Shannon and tell her off, but the MF19YO goes way above and beyond that.

[Asuka0NK]

Yeah I know the whole George thing was mainly just a BLAME IT ON GEORGE joke. Also the reason I don't count Ep 3 is because I don't believe Yasu is the culprit of Ep 3 I believe it is Eva so thus of course the rules wouldn't apply still.
Also as I recall I guess I have a bad memory the scratch were only in Ep 1 and none of the others. I know that other paintings appeared on doors but never bloody scratch marks. Also the Natsuhi being dead = her family being dead is as I explained. Also I don't think Yasu's feelings towards the cousins work because the cousins don't always survive till the end.

I thought the final letter just had to do with Yasu telling Natsuhi to come and meet the child she killed.

[Wanderer]

Now that I'm thinking about Reader Theory, I remember a lot of people complaining about Kanon being in the room once Erika gathered everyone together.... but it can be explained using Reader Theory. The Reader reads "everyone was gathered" and imagines Shannon standing on one side of the room and Kanon on the other. What we were seeing was the Reader's infuence. It still violates a more pure form of Knox's 8th though =/

Yes, I proposed this a while ago and there was a big debate about it. How does it violate Knox's 8th, though?

[AuraTwilight]

Knox's 8th

The detective must not light on any clues are not instantly produced for the inspection of the reader. Any writer can make a mystery by telling us that at this point the great Picklock Holes suddenly bent down and picked up from the ground an object which he refused to let his friend see. He whispers 'Ha!' and his face grows grave - all that is illegitimate mystery - making. The skill of the detective author consists in being able to produce his clues and flourish them defiantly in our faces: 'There!' he says, 'what do you make of that?' and we make nothing.

The only way to infer this 'Reader Influence' is long past EP5's conclusion, making it a violation of Knox's 8th as originally defined.

[haguruma]

The only way to infer this 'Reader Influence' is long past EP5's conclusion, making it a violation of Knox's 8th as originally defined.
But doesn't Umineko rather function the other way around? The detective is limited in his possibilities to produce a solution believable to us, because we have knowledge beyond that of the detective.
Knox's 8th in Umineko's context rather becomes a chain to the detective instead of us. That is shown quite clearly in the solution of Kinzô's escape from the study. Any of the Eiserne Jungfrau could have used "Kinzô is dead at the start of every game!", but at this point in EP5's story there is no proof, no evidence and therefor no solution. Any solution by the gameboard-detective can only be done in coherence with what he or she has gathered within the plot and in gameboard Erika's plot during EP5 she misses crucial events that we, the reader, do witness.

In that context I wonder about one thing concerning the aspect of "Reader Influence": Did Erika ever address both Kanon and Shannon seperate from another in the same scene? As in did GAMEBOARD Erika ever actually say anything along the lines of "first I ask you, Kanon, and then I ask you, Shannon" during EP5 or especially 6?
The important thing I think is the differentiate gameboard Erika's knowledge from meta-Erika's knowledge and that is something that proves very difficult during EP6, because she herself does not stay true to those rules.

[Wanderer]

In that context I wonder about one thing concerning the aspect of "Reader Influence": Did Erika ever address both Kanon and Shannon seperate from another in the same scene?

No. Although I wouldn't claim that it's unnatural for her to not have done so.

In EP5 the 3 of them appear together frequently, although Erika never addresses both Kanon and Shannon by name at the same time. She will occasionally address or refer to one or the other by name with more or less the kind of frequency one would expect if they were normal people. There is also a point where Erika seems to look at Kanon and Shannon both at the same time and command something like "Close the door, will you?", which they both do (it's a double door, I guess).

In EP6 it's always Shannon and Erika or it's Shannon and Kanon, never all 3 or even just Erika and Kanon (in other words Kanon and Erika never appear together at all). However, Piece-Erika does mention Kanon while talking with other pieces.

[GuestSpeaker]

Had they actually confessed to the fact that it was Kanon or Shannon who delivered the letters, it would have been quite obvious that their and ONLY their story is in danger of being a lie

I feel like you are saying something really interesting in this paragraph, and I just can't quite understand what you mean

[haguruma]

I feel like you are saying something really interesting in this paragraph, and I just can't quite understand what you mean
Somebody must have delivered the letter to somebody for it to appear in the dining room so that Battler would receive the ring of headship and further instructions about his role as the successor. Whoever delivers that letter is bound or at least highly likely to have been in close contact with the former holder of the ring, if not even the former holder of the ring itself.
Because at this point it is still upheld on the island that "Ushiromiya Kinzô has the ring of headship and would never pass it to anybody until his death", it also means that whoever possesses the ring stands in direct context with "whatever happened to Kinzô".
Natsuhi and Krauss are probably aware of the fact that the ring of headship is missing, but either Genji told them he put it in a secure place or they are just not able to question it's dissappearance because it would immediatly blow the cover of the Kinzô situation.

Now to the problem of Shannon or Kanon delivering the letter.
Remember that, them delivering the letter also entails that they are in (at least temporary) possession of the ring of headship, which raises the question why they would possess such item. Why, if they have no right to possess it, would Genji, Natsuhi or Krauss place an item of high importance to Kinzô in the hands of a klutzy girl and/or a rebellious boy?
But if the actual goal was to make Natsuhi admit to Kinzô's death, then she had to be put in the situation of being the only one capable of placing the letter.

The plan is basically ingenious, because Natsuhi won't say what happened during the time where she would need said alibi concerning the whole affair. We (the reader) know that she is on the 2nd floor and after that in her room, confined there by the call from the man from 19 years ago, but if there is nobody to observe that truth or testify for her "it stays in eternal process".

Further, EP5 is actually the first game where all parties present in the mansion when the letter appears can be accounted for from their arrival on the island. This means that by extension whoever delivers the letter on this night, in EP5, within the mansion is the person who already possessed the letter and therefore the ring from the beginning. And if we combine all knowledge about what possessing the ring entails then Shannon or Kanon delivering the letter on this night would have only framed them as the only possible core culprit.

[Wanderer]

There's a couple funny things about it, though.

First, the first thing that happens after Battler puts on the ring is that Genji and Krauss enter the dining hall and Genji instantly notices that Battler has Kinzo's ring on his finger, expressing surprise. Then it takes a while for Krauss to even realize that Genji and the others are talking about the ring on Battler's finger and even then it takes him a while to realize that it's the headship ring.

The other funny thing is that Battler having the ring is not mentioned outside of that scene. For all we know Battler never even had it.

[Renall]

I always wondered what would happen if Natsuhi just... told everybody someone was trying to blackmail her. She doesn't have to say why, after all; the onus would then be on everybody else to stake a claim as to why someone would be trying to do that to her and she happens to have an incredibly convenient alternative motive to which she can confess (related to the baby and thus not anything to do with present-day Kinzo specifically).

Plus then if someone called to tell her to go to a specific bedroom she could just tell everybody that someone called and told her to do that. It'd completely screw everything up.

Of course nobody would do this because it's a mystery and "no one would believe me," but seriously, they don't even have to believe you to mess everything up. Hideyoshi's "death" only works because Natsuhi was in there. If she tells everybody not to go to that bedroom and then doesn't, especially if they start keeping watch over her, she can't be responsible for it and it just wouldn't happen.

I'm honestly more amused with the way nobody seems to have any problem believing Natsuhi was physically capable of the supposed First Twilight murders. It seems really hard to kill a half-dozen people all in a single room, even if they're asleep. People tend not to be asleep very long if you start trying to kill them with a knife. Then again, Natsuhi just believes the murders happened too and doesn't really question it, so I'm going to guess it's a genre thing.

[jjblue1]

There's a couple funny things about it, though.

First, the first thing that happens after Battler puts on the ring is that Genji and Krauss enter the dining hall and Genji instantly notices that Battler has Kinzo's ring on his finger, expressing surprise. Then it takes a while for Krauss to even realize that Genji and the others are talking about the ring on Battler's finger and even then it takes him a while to realize that it's the headship ring.

The other funny thing is that Battler having the ring is not mentioned outside of that scene. For all we know Battler never even had it.

And we actually don't know if Genji and Krauss even entered in the room and things went like that. It could also be a lie and it's a convenient one.

Eva: Battler had the ring of the head! Therefore now he's the head.
Natsuhi: It's a fake!
Eva: It's not! Genji recognized it!
Erika: Well, where's Genji?
Kumasawa: Me and Kanon tried to call him but he appears to be... hum... dead...
Eva: Natsuhi, you killed Genji so he couldn't testify the ring is true!

To be honest Erika acknowledged that Battler had the ring

".........Interesting. I see, you are the Ushiromiya family head, the one who bears the ring of the head. That should more than qualify you to stand in for Kinzo-san. .........Why don't you let us have a look at your theory?!!"


Though we can't know if it's MetaErika or PieceErika the one who's talking as the scene switch continuously between the two.

And Natsuhi agreed that Battler got the ring in an internal monologue...

It's been completely overshadowed by the recent uproar, ......but last night, Battler-kun found the hidden gold and even gained the head's ring from that mysterious envelope.

Though again the monologue can be false I doubt so.
It's more likely that Battler had the ring and explained his possession with the mysterious letter.

As for me the reason for the mysterious letter is merely a weak attempt to force Natsuhi/Krauss to admit Kinzo is dead.
Let's face it, I don't think anyone would believe the letter was sent by Beatrice.
The ring is supposed to be in Kinzo's possession so either Kinzo delivered it, handed it to someone so it can be delivered or had it stolen.

As Kinzo is dead Natsuhi/Krauss knows that the first 2 options aren't the truth... but to prove that the ring was stolen she/he needs Kinzo to testify he hadn't handed it to anyone. And since Kinzo is dead he can't do this.

So if Natsuhi/Krauss wants to question how Battler got the ring she/he has to admit Kinzo couldn't hand it to anyone because he's dead.

So they either aknowledge that 'Kinzo' handed the ring to Battler or, to prove he had gotten it by stealing it, they've to reveal Kinzo is dead.

[haguruma]

There's a couple funny things about it, though.

First, the first thing that happens after Battler puts on the ring is that Genji and Krauss enter the dining hall and Genji instantly notices that Battler has Kinzo's ring on his finger, expressing surprise. Then it takes a while for Krauss to even realize that Genji and the others are talking about the ring on Battler's finger and even then it takes him a while to realize that it's the headship ring.

The other funny thing is that Battler having the ring is not mentioned outside of that scene. For all we know Battler never even had it.
I think it is unnecessary to doubt the existence of the ring. We know that it exists through Ange's plot in EP3's and 4's 1998 and through EP3 and 5 we know that it is passed on by Beatrice to the person who solves the epitaph.
Also, EP5's manga version clearly depicts Battler as wearing the ring even in the scenes the next day. It is pretty prominently shown in various illustrations and sequences and considering Ryûkishi's fondness of the manga I think we can use it as a source for additional information.
For all we know, Battler received the ring of headship in an envelope together with a letter from Beatrice who introduced herself yet also simultaneously gave up all her rights towards any of the gold.

Concerning Genji's surprise, you can read it in two ways.
1) He was genuinely surprised that the true heir gave up the ring and handed it to somebody else.
2) He was simply pointing out the ring to draw Krauss' attention to it, as he was already aware of the fact that the ring would be handed over to the person who solved the epitaph.

I think it is also important to look at the last gameboard-Beato scene for this, which is mentioned as taking place some time before the last scene we witnessed (Natsuhi being intimidated by the man from 19 years ago).
We see her in the study, together with Ronove, Virgilia and the illusion of family-head Kinzô. She shows surprise over the fact that Battler of all people solved the epitaph and Virgilia asks her if she really plans to stop her ceremony now and pass everything on to Battler.

If we toss away the magical implications of this scene, we can assume that Yasu had problems with actually fulfilling that condition, but why? Not only because it meant the end of her game, but by extension because she had to reveal herself to Battler and therefor would never know what his honest intentions would have been.
So what is the most logical (by that I mean Yasu-logic) thing to do? Of course making it appear like the witch did it, making her own letter appear out of thin air or at least not from her own hand. This of course plays closely into the hands of the adults in the dining room, because it incriminates the Krauss/Natsuhi party as they are outside the room when the letter appeared and are in charge of Kinzô and by extension his ring.

[jjblue1]

I always wondered what would happen if Natsuhi just... told everybody someone was trying to blackmail her. She doesn't have to say why, after all; the onus would then be on everybody else to stake a claim as to why someone would be trying to do that to her and she happens to have an incredibly convenient alternative motive to which she can confess (related to the baby and thus not anything to do with present-day Kinzo specifically).

Plus then if someone called to tell her to go to a specific bedroom she could just tell everybody that someone called and told her to do that. It'd completely screw everything up.

Of course nobody would do this because it's a mystery and "no one would believe me," but seriously, they don't even have to believe you to mess everything up. Hideyoshi's "death" only works because Natsuhi was in there. If she tells everybody not to go to that bedroom and then doesn't, especially if they start keeping watch over her, she can't be responsible for it and it just wouldn't happen.

I'm honestly more amused with the way nobody seems to have any problem believing Natsuhi was physically capable of the supposed First Twilight murders. It seems really hard to kill a half-dozen people all in a single room, even if they're asleep. People tend not to be asleep very long if you start trying to kill them with a knife. Then again, Natsuhi just believes the murders happened too and doesn't really question it, so I'm going to guess it's a genre thing.

Well, if I were to be the murder of the first twilight I would probably drug my targets so they wouldn't wake up.

There's also to say Natsuhi might suspect one of the siblings of being the one blackmailing her. Before they 'kidnapped' Krauss it was fine but afterward, if she confess she's being blackmailed, the kidnapper can kill Krauss.

I guess it doesn't help that Erika looks against her and doesn't have the look of a reliable detective.

I mean, if Poirot or Holmes were there I could totally see Natsuhi going to him and telling:
Mr., I've to tell you confidential information. I'm being blackmailed to do this and that for this and that reason. I swear it's the truth. Can you help me?

But with Erika, whom Natsuhi even suspected of being the man of 19 years ago and that tries so hard to frame Natsuhi as culprit...

[Renall]

Sure, I'm definitely referring to telling someone before anyone is "killed" or kidnapped. It's a genre convention not to, but confiding in somebody trustworthy (Battler? I dunno) surely could've helped her. And again, she can confess... to the baby thing, and deflect attention from Kinzo.

[jjblue1]

Sure, I'm definitely referring to telling someone before anyone is "killed" or kidnapped. It's a genre convention not to, but confiding in somebody trustworthy (Battler? I dunno) surely could've helped her. And again, she can confess... to the baby thing, and deflect attention from Kinzo.

She should have told someone... but Natsuhi is way too prideful so I'm not sure if she would have admitted the whole baby thing.

Though she could have lied and insisted on the 'it was only an incident and I wasn't even present and this guy is accusing me of something I didn't do' line.
Actually she didn't even have to tell Kinzo handed her the baby because she couldn't have kids. She could say Kinzo had took in the baby because... it was the kid of a deceased friend or something.

But well, I guess the fact she were to talk would definitely cause troubles for the plot... in many stories the characters never do the smart thing...

[Wanderer]

I always wondered what would happen if Natsuhi just... told everybody someone was trying to blackmail her. She doesn't have to say why, after all; the onus would then be on everybody else to stake a claim as to why someone would be trying to do that to her and she happens to have an incredibly convenient alternative motive to which she can confess (related to the baby and thus not anything to do with present-day Kinzo specifically).

It'd screw up the blackmailer's plans, sure, but Natsuhi's problem was that she was... being blackmailed.

Erika acknowledged that Battler had the ring

And Natsuhi agreed that Battler got the ring in an internal monologue.

Okay, I guess I jumped the gun. It's fine, though, I prefer it this way.

Concerning Genji's surprise, you can read it in two ways.
1) He was genuinely surprised that the true heir gave up the ring and handed it to somebody else.
2) He was simply pointing out the ring to draw Krauss' attention to it, as he was already aware of the fact that the ring would be handed over to the person who solved the epitaph.

The scene screams #2 to me.

But well, I guess the fact she were to talk would definitely cause troubles for the plot... in many stories the characters never do the smart thing...

Natsuhi's pretty strong-willed, but she was never implied to be too smart.

Now that I think about it, it's fitting that Lambdadelta was the one running the game that focused on protecting Natsuhi.

[haguruma]

She should have told someone... but Natsuhi is way too prideful so I'm not sure if she would have admitted the whole baby thing.
That and she was in no position to refuse those demands.
She not only knew that the story the person on the other end told was true, but the person threatened her with revealing the story to others if she were to blow his cover. This would have meant several things:
1) She would lose face in front of Krauss' siblings and their spouses, especially in front of Eva.
2) She would probably face a trial and possible time in jail if not worse. As she committed at least manslaughter, if not calculated murder.
3) Krauss would learn that she endangered his chances towards the inheritance by denying him an heir out of pride.
Now you could say it is her word against the mysterious caller, but she is in every position to assume that at least Genji, if not more people are in on this and would back up the story of the man from 19 years ago, even embellish it to the point where she faces the worst possible result.

The scene screams #2 to me.
To me too, especially when we add to this how Eva, Genji and Rosa had time to plan further events. I propose the following:
Genji filled Eva and Rosa in on the plot to carry on with the game to make Battler remember. He went into the servants room, which was then sealed by Eva with the tape she received from Erika, and applied the prepared make-up to appear dead.
Rosa went to the guesthouse and when she arrived around 1am she went upstairs as if nothing was going on. She filled the children in on "a game" and asked Maria to help with drawing a magic circle on the wall. Because they cannot draw as well as Yasu, the circle looked amateurish. After that they all applied the make up Rosa had received through Genji and laid ready to be found.
It is not unlikely that they made sleeping sounds when Battler came back to keep him from turning on the lights.
Eva went back into the dining hall and after they send Battler off to sleep she conspired with the others. They somehow surprised Krauss and took him hostage. Anybody of them might have had hostile motives against him, so the man from 19 years ago's words, that he had no intention to hurt Krauss, were true.
Everybody except Battler and Erika were filled in on the plot to stage Hideyoshi's death in Natsuhi's presence. So anybody not specifically mentioned to move from the hall into the room after the chain is cut can be the "culprit" Natsuhi saw.
The "bodies" moved on their own after they were found, either because they were forced by somebody among them or to meet up somewhere else and deepen the plot. After they reunited it came to a struggle and at least somebody (Krauss?) died.

Now that I think about it, it's fitting that Lambdadelta was the one running the game that focused on protecting Natsuhi.
Elaborate further, this sounds pretty intriguing.

[Kealym]

Lambdadelta gave Kanon a body? http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4258388&postcount=29698 Maybe *you* gave Kanon a body in EP5
Putting aside that I really, really really don't wanna talk about Kanon in EP5 anymore, I've always found the other possible, admittedly very possible reasons for the discrepancy to be ungodly, unforgivably ... stupid.

That is shown quite clearly in the solution of Kinzô's escape from the study. Any of the Eiserne Jungfrau could have used "Kinzô is dead at the start of every game!", but at this point in EP5's story there is no proof, no evidence and therefor no solution. Any solution by the gameboard-detective can only be done in coherence with what he or she has gathered within the plot and in gameboard Erika's plot during EP5 she misses crucial events that we, the reader, do witness.
Not necessarily - it's simplest to assume that Erika is viewing all of the gameboard narrative, like Battler was in EP1-4. Erika is also, I believe, already aware of what happened during those games. It's a bit of a sore point - during the Court of Illusions, Erika claims that only Lambda and Bern refusing to restate the red of Kinzo's death made it impossible to count him as dead. But that's not necessarily true - she could've forced a response with Kinzo is already dead, isn't he? or something, AND it's apparently totes cool for Battler to just fall back on the Kinzo is dead at the start of all games from the previous game.


I'm honestly more amused with the way nobody seems to have any problem believing Natsuhi was physically capable of the supposed First Twilight murders. It seems really hard to kill a half-dozen people all in a single room, even if they're asleep. People tend not to be asleep very long if you start trying to kill them with a knife. Then again, Natsuhi just believes the murders happened too and doesn't really question it, so I'm going to guess it's a genre thing.
Indeed, probably a genre thing. Remember back in EP3, when BATTLER was arguing his Eva culprit theory, he was apparently able to use a Devil's Proof along the lines of "I don't have to explain how Eva killed three conscious adults armed with guns, so long as it was physically possible at all."


3) Krauss would learn that she endangered his chances towards the inheritance by denying him an heir out of pride.

Small stuff, but first, I believe Krauss already knows about the baby, or at least in Lambda's narrative he did. Second, there wouldn't be any need to "fool" Battler once he came back to the Guesthouse, right? If the adults planned anything out between seeing the gold at 11-ish and Rosa leaving at 1-ish, Battler was there for it.

[Renall]

That and she was in no position to refuse those demands.
She not only knew that the story the person on the other end told was true, but the person threatened her with revealing the story to others if she were to blow his cover. This would have meant several things:
1) She would lose face in front of Krauss' siblings and their spouses, especially in front of Eva.
2) She would probably face a trial and possible time in jail if not worse. As she committed at least manslaughter, if not calculated murder.
3) Krauss would learn that she endangered his chances towards the inheritance by denying him an heir out of pride.
Now you could say it is her word against the mysterious caller, but she is in every position to assume that at least Genji, if not more people are in on this and would back up the story of the man from 19 years ago, even embellish it to the point where she faces the worst possible result.
She could tell her husband, or anybody else she trusts. Or she could at least tell people she had a telephone call without elaborating. Genji has to back that up.

Hell, tell everybody she was on the phone with Kinzo, who just so happens to have left the island in secret and can't get back because of the storm! But Natsuhi isn't smart enough for that.

It would kind of screw everything up though.

[Wanderer]

Elaborate further, this sounds pretty intriguing.

It's not really. I was just making the connection between Natsuhi's unwavering persistence through crisis and how Lambdadelta is basically the patron of human persistence.

[haguruma]

Not necessarily - it's simplest to assume that Erika is viewing all of the gameboard narrative, like Battler was in EP1-4. Erika is also, I believe, already aware of what happened during those games.
Yet again I think you are mixing up what is possible on the gameboard and what is possible within the metaworld. Gameboard Erika can be fed as many pieces of information that her counterpart in the metaworld possesses as she wants, she wouldn't be able to properly work with them, because she has no way of knowing them.
That IS the dilemma of Erika. Her whole apparent superiority stems from the fact that she has access to supernatural elements, but that defeats her purpose as a human-side detective from the start. Gameboard Erika cannot use the knowledge that "person X is dead at the start of every game" on the gameboard, because it's existence as a gameboard is only of any validity from the perspective of those outside the gameboard.

The problem is that Erika wants to win the metaworld AND the gameboard. To make the truth "Kinzô is dead" be effective on EP5's gameboard, she needs at least one of two things a) a confession or b) a corpse. There is neither of those during the time when she tries to win the game, so on the gameboard she has to work with what she has at her disposal.

I know it grows increasingly harder to seperate the meta-goal from the gameboard-goal, but I think it is that which is the key to knowing what happens. Not ripping the veil away and casting it aside, but seperating the layers from one another and looking at them separately.

Indeed, probably a genre thing. Remember back in EP3, when BATTLER was arguing his Eva culprit theory, he was apparently able to use a Devil's Proof along the lines of "I don't have to explain how Eva killed three conscious adults armed with guns, so long as it was physically possible at all."

Small stuff, but first, I believe Krauss already knows about the baby, or at least in Lambda's narrative he did.
But Natsuhi didn't know that he did.
Yes we could say that, in a world where Natsuhi is not afraid of any consequences that might arise out of going against the mysterious caller, she probably could have destroyed the plot of the caller...which for me is nothing more than a part of Beato/Yasu's mystery game directed at Battler.
I do believe though that this would not have helped in preventing the crisis that led to the explosion.

Second, there wouldn't be any need to "fool" Battler once he came back to the Guesthouse, right? If the adults planned anything out between seeing the gold at 11-ish and Rosa leaving at 1-ish, Battler was there for it.
You are missing the gaps here I think. Battler is not always around.
There is this strange plot of Eva leaving together with Rosa and Genji only to come back again to the dining hall, isn't there? Why did she do that? Why did she feel the need to mark the entrance to the room Genji was in? Why did the same thing happen in Genji's room as in the room Rosa went to after that scene?
And there is a reason to "fool" Battler for somebody on the island, isn't there? That person chose not to reveal him/herself to him, but kept the disguise of Beatrice.

Hell, tell everybody she was on the phone with Kinzo, who just so happens to have left the island in secret and can't get back because of the storm! But Natsuhi isn't smart enough for that.
*Letter from Beatrice appears*
"Dear members of this family, honored family head Sir Battler,
It has come to my ears that somebody among you is deceiving you, which as a former aid to this household pains me deeply. Please investigate [place X], I have prepared a wonderful place for the former family head, Sir Kinzô, to sleep peacefully after he departed this world and joined me in my magic realm over one human year ago.
Heed the word of the Golden Witch,
Beatrice"

[Jan-Poo]

*Letter from Beatrice appears*
"Dear members of this family, honored family head Sir Battler,
It has come to my ears that somebody among you is deceiving you, which as a former aid to this household pains me deeply. Please investigate [place X], I have prepared a wonderful place for the former family head, Sir Kinzô, to sleep peacefully after he departed this world and joined me in my magic realm over one human year ago.
Heed the word of the Golden Witch,
Beatrice"

I guess it would have been a huge plot twist for Natsuhi if she realized Beatrice was on the enemy side, but I suppose there's a reason if in EP5 the blackmailer presents himself as the man from 19 years before and never implies he's connected with Beatrice. Maybe it could have turned out that way if Natsuhi talked, but she had absolutely no reason to believe this would happen unless this mysterious man somehow revealed his existence to others.

By the way I doubt there was any way for this "man" to prove that Natsuhi caused the death of the maid and the injuries of the baby. It wouldn't even be his word against hers since he couldn't have any memory of that. And as far as we know nobody witnessed that "accident".
While the presence of the baby was hidden, the case was already settled since a long time.

[GreyZone]

I guess it would have been a huge plot twist for Natsuhi if she realized Beatrice was on the enemy side, but I suppose there's a reason if in EP5 the blackmailer presents himself as the man from 19 years before and never implies he's connected with Beatrice.

The reason: "End of the Golden Witch" has no love

[Renall]

*Letter from Beatrice appears*
"Dear members of this family, honored family head Sir Battler,
It has come to my ears that somebody among you is deceiving you, which as a former aid to this household pains me deeply. Please investigate [place X], I have prepared a wonderful place for the former family head, Sir Kinzô, to sleep peacefully after he departed this world and joined me in my magic realm over one human year ago.
Heed the word of the Golden Witch,
Beatrice"Then it ceases to be blackmail. Why would a blackmailer play their hand?

Claiming you've talked to Kinzo is really no different than anything else Natsuhi's cover-up would have done at that point, and the blackmailer doesn't seem keen to just show off Kinzo's corpse for whatever reason, even though burning the body has happened in other eps so the corpse is apparently on hand there.

Plus, maybe the MF19YA doesn't have access to the body in ep5. And who's to say Natsuhi and Krauss don't? Considering ep5 fixes the cover-up pretty squarely around Natsuhi, I think it'd be strange (at least in this continuity) for her not to already be aware of the location of the body. Yet she never seems worried about it actually appearing even though they're trying to tighten the noose around her.

Honestly, it seems like in ep5 the blackmailer needs Natsuhi to admit to it. Otherwise why not just do what you already proposed: Ask Natsuhi and Krauss about Kinzo, then produce the body to prove they're lying? Why go through all of this to get her to confess to it when she's already entrapped by her words? It makes me think whoever is doing it lacks physical evidence. And Natsuhi's own behavior makes me think the body is destroyed or something, at least in ep5.

[Jan-Poo]

Frankly I don't believe that Natsuhi would want to keep Kinzo's body around. In the first place her plan is to make him disappear. It makes absolutely no sense to think she wouldn't want it to be "disposed" in a permanent way. And I think it's logical to assume that she'd be at least respectful enough to give Kinzo a proper burial, after a thorough cremation.

But in the end who would be most likely in charge of disposing of Kinzo's body?


1945ish
Nanjo: "Genji... Beatrice is dead..."
Genji: "This is very unfortunate... okay, I'll take care of the corpse..."

1967
Rosa: "Genji! Beatrice! Beatrice is dead!"
Genji: "Again?! I mean... don't worry... I'll take care of that..."

1967 (some time later)
Natsuhi: "Genji! The maid is dead! The baby is dead!"
Genji: "Sigh... don't worry... I'll take care of that..."

1984
Yasu: "Genji! Kinzo is dead!"
Genji: "No problem, I'm an expert."

[haguruma]

But in the end who would be most likely in charge of disposing of Kinzo's body?
Oh yes, poor Genji. He's seen so much death and destruction, no wonder he prefers to be silent. I wonder where his magical little graveyard might be :heh:

[Asuka0NK]

I've actually wondered where Genji is throwing all these bodies I mean where are they all going. I doubt Genji actually does anything he probably goes to look at them then just shrugs and walks away. He doesn't have to worry the seagulls will eat them.

[Witch of Uncertainty]

Burns them and drops the bones in the far-off waters? :heh:

...:uhoh:

[haguruma]

I've actually wondered where Genji is throwing all these bodies I mean where are they all going. I doubt Genji actually does anything he probably goes to look at them then just shrugs and walks away. He doesn't have to worry the seagulls will eat them.
Of course, because Genji is of Taiwanese origin, he had to wait for a day where it was fortunate to bury them. I can see him walking over to Kuwadorian again and again, always cursing about how it wasn't the right day :heh:
Maybe he even belonged to another Buddhist group, apparently being from out in the countryside from what we know, so who knows what rites he had to follow.

Oh poor Genji, all the work is on you...

[jjblue1]

Frankly I don't believe that Natsuhi would want to keep Kinzo's body around. In the first place her plan is to make him disappear. It makes absolutely no sense to think she wouldn't want it to be "disposed" in a permanent way. And I think it's logical to assume that she'd be at least respectful enough to give Kinzo a proper burial, after a thorough cremation.

But in the end who would be most likely in charge of disposing of Kinzo's body?


1945ish
Nanjo: "Genji... Beatrice is dead..."
Genji: "This is very unfortunate... okay, I'll take care of the corpse..."

1967
Rosa: "Genji! Beatrice! Beatrice is dead!"
Genji: "Again?! I mean... don't worry... I'll take care of that..."

1967 (some time later)
Natsuhi: "Genji! The maid is dead! The baby is dead!"
Genji: "Sigh... don't worry... I'll take care of that..."

1984
Yasu: "Genji! Kinzo is dead!"
Genji: "No problem, I'm an expert."

All this reminds me of what I was reading short ago in which a doctor insisted the best way to get rid of a body was to cut the meat into tiny slices then break all the bones and feed the result to chickens... I wonder if seaguls can replace chickens...

[GuestSpeaker]

That is an awful lot of work to dispose of a body...

[Jan-Poo]

I have no doubt that chicken would eat everything and seagulls? Even more.
After all Sky burial (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sky_burial) is a very old practice.
But is this doctor considering the problem of how many things and places would be smeared by the genetic material of the victim? I think that even doing a thorough clean up this wouldn't be without any risk.

[Judoh]

Was such a recorder ever mentioned in EP5, aside from when Erika suggested it? Because if not, then it violates Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented.

It was mentioned somewhere in episode 4 or episode 5 that Kinzo likes to play around with a voice recorder if I recall correctly


Hell, tell everybody she was on the phone with Kinzo, who just so happens to have left the island in secret and can't get back because of the storm! But Natsuhi isn't smart enough for that.

It would kind of screw everything up though.

Better yet The Ushiromiya's could just find a letter in the study.

Dear, family

Gone Fishin! I took Krauss's Boat!

Love, Grandpa

[Kealym]

Yet again I think you are mixing up what is possible on the gameboard and what is possible within the metaworld.
I'm unsure where you're getting this distinction between a "gameboard victory" and a "metaworld victory", as they are the same thing, in Umineko's workings. You "win" a gameboard by successfully refuting the Illusion of the Witch in the Meta layer. And putting aside whether she can apply old reds to the current game, all she has to do is SUSPECT Kinzo is dead, which is EXTREMELY reasonable based even on just what her perspective would be on the gameboard. Kinzo is already dead, isn't he? is pretty easy peasy, and effectively becomes the red truth if not refuted. And I'm fairly certain it wouldn't have been refuted.

But Natsuhi didn't know that he did.
Yeah she does. She literally says "Of course, my husband had heard about the baby."

You are missing the gaps here I think. Battler is not always around.
There is this strange plot of Eva leaving together with Rosa and Genji only to come back again to the dining hall, isn't there? Why did she do that? Why did she feel the need to mark the entrance to the room Genji was in? Why did the same thing happen in Genji's room as in the room Rosa went to after that scene?
And there is a reason to "fool" Battler for somebody on the island, isn't there? That person chose not to reveal him/herself to him, but kept the disguise of Beatrice.
Eva and Erika discussed the door seals beforehand, at dinner, so it's not exactly a coincidence. I'll admit, I very much like the idea of nested conspiracy groups, but Battler simply being an accomplice (to what degree and under what coercions, I could not say) seemed way more apparent.
I mean, he was an accomplice in Dawn, too, and we have WAY less information on whatever the hell was going on there.


But in the end who would be most likely in charge of disposing of Kinzo's body?

Man, someone really needs to write a forgery focusing on the misadventures of silently sassy Genji.


Better yet The Ushiromiya's could just find a letter in the study.

Dear, family

Gone Fishin! I took Krauss's Boat!

Love, Grandpa
Oh wow, that is MARVELOUS. And Natsuhi can just claim she lied about meeting him in his study because he'd ordered her to, on pain of massive dishonor. :heh:

[Wanderer]

But is this doctor considering the problem of how many things and places would be smeared by the genetic material of the victim? I think that even doing a thorough clean up this wouldn't be without any risk.

DNA testing in 1986?

[AuraTwilight]

It was invented in 1984, so...

[GuestSpeaker]

DNA testing may or may not have been in widespread use by then, and may or may not have been very reliable. However they could probably identify the presence of blood pretty easily. More importantly that would take a long time, be physically difficult AND require no-one to notice the body you had round and were slowly stripping. Grinding teeth and bones ain't easy, I think they just left them in sky burials.

[jjblue1]

I have no doubt that chicken would eat everything and seagulls? Even more.
After all Sky burial (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sky_burial) is a very old practice.
But is this doctor considering the problem of how many things and places would be smeared by the genetic material of the victim? I think that even doing a thorough clean up this wouldn't be without any risk.

Well, I don't know if they would use DNA testing in 1986 Japan but the charm of having a while island with some hard to reach bays and a forest is that if you do it in a secluded yet open space and leave no long term visible trace. The best would be doing it by night on the wooden pier of Beato 2's house (it had one, hadn't it?). No one uses it anymore, no one goes there, the blood would just fall in the sea and you can burn the wood and replace it once the birds have finished eating...
And if, after nearly 2 years the police notices that hey, someone replaced the wood, you can always say the previous one was in bad conditions and Kinzo, even through didn't use that house and pier anymore, ordered to keep it in good conditions.

[LyricalAura]

It was invented in 1984, so...

Until it was commercialized in 1987, there was only one lab in the world that could perform the process, so there was a huge wait-list.

[Renall]

Better yet The Ushiromiya's could just find a letter in the study.

Dear, family

Gone Fishin! I took Krauss's Boat!

Love, GrandpaRegrettably, this would be foiled if not in his handwriting.

Because apparently nobody on the goddamn island has a freaking typewriter.

Perhaps Natsuhi could cut characters out of the newspaper to string together, then add a "p.s. I've taken up newspaper collage ransom letters as a hobby. You wouldn't put it past me!"

[AuraTwilight]

Until it was commercialized in 1987, there was only one lab in the world that could perform the process, so there was a huge wait-list.

That's nothing for Bullshit Mary Sue Detective Furudo Erika~!

[Renall]

"I will now test all blood and other bodily fluids... manually. This level of depravity is possible for Furudo Erika. What do you think, everyone?"

Followed by the sound of a dozen chairs sloooooooowly sliding away from her.