[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Jan-Poo]

Don't forget that it is confirmed that Beatrice already owns the gold. So the three gold bars in Ep2 are more easily explained with Beatrice showing them the proof that the gold exists.

This also gives a fair explanation of where the money in the bank accounts came from. The only other possible explanation is that those money come from Kinzo's wealth, maybe a secret account that Krauss is not aware of. I doubt that Shannon could have get that many money, and certainly the adults aren't in a situation that allowed them to relinquish 2 billions of yen.

The bank accounts and the letters sent the day before constitute one of the major flaws in the George culprit theory.
I had thought that they could be merely part of Kinzo's will. A way to let everyone get a part of his money as a "parting gift", but this doesn't make much sense. The problem is the "senders" are the relatives that didn't participate in the family meeting and the "receivers" are all people who died or went missing.
It was made in a way that the real receivers are the ones listed as senders. We know three of them: Ange, Nanjo's son, and Kumasawa's son.

Apparently Beatrice didn't write letters based on the number of people on Rokkenjima, else Ange would have received 3 letters and not just one. And she probably considered only the closest relatives, else Nanjo's son would be in possession of a second letter directed to Nanjo's granddaughter.

So how come Nanjo's son said he has seen 20 different vaults?

Krauss, Battler, Jessica, George, Eva, Kinzo, Hideyoshi, shouldn't have any close relative alive, so there shouldn't be any letter sent with their name as the receiver.

Kyrie might have been used to send a letter to Kasumi or her father, but it's doubtful. Rosa or Maria to Maria's father. though in either case one of them wasn't used.

Kanon and Shannon are orphan or disowned do they have any relative? I guess it is still possible that they have them but it is unlikely.

Then we are left with Genji, Natsuhi, Gohda, and for them it can only work provided they have brothers and sisters.

Nanjo and Kumasawa might also have other close relatives beside the two known.

I think the calculation isn't quite right unless someone has a lot of brothers and sisters, and I mean more than the average.

[Kaisos Erranon]

The stakes, as implied by Episode 4, were probably added to the corpses after death. It doesn't even have to be the killer who adds the stakes later on, it could just be someone who wants top profit from the murders, recreating the legend of Beatrice.

I'd think that, for most of the games, the killer and the staker are one and the same, given the way the victim's injuries match the epitaph.

The only game where this is not true is Ep4.

(Also, the stakes can easily be weapons, as I continue to state. They're sharp enough to kill, just not sharp enough to stab people in the head with.)

many things about 'living Kinzo' just don't seem to add up.

Don't forget that most of what we see of Kinzo is actually 'Goldsmith', Kinzo's magical ghost duplicate thing... I doubt much of anything he's ever said is representative of the real Kinzo, and everything else we hear about him is from his children, all of whom hate him.

Fact is we know very little real, concrete information about the guy, other than perhaps the history Genji gives us.

[Jan-Poo]

If you look at the Goldsmith of Ep5, I don't really think it can be said that he hates his family. Maybe disappointed, yes, certainly. But Battler solving the epitaph made him ecstatic, proving that what he truly wishes for is not an ending where everyone dies, and that it is perfectly fine for him that the gold gets found.

[Kaisos Erranon]

If you look at the Goldsmith of Ep5, I don't really think it can be said that he hates his family. Maybe disappointed, yes, certainly. But Battler solving the epitaph made him ecstatic, proving that what he truly wishes for is not an ending where everyone dies, and that it is perfectly fine for him that the gold gets found.

Well, like I said, how much of the stuff Goldsmith says is really representative of how Kinzo thought when he was alive?

For that matter, what the hell is Goldsmith, anyway? I'm not quite sure whether or not he's just an illusion or a being on the same level as, say, Ronove and Gaap.

[Dlanor .A. Nox]

That kinzo was destroyed in court remember by one of the witches I think, it was a delusion of Natsuhi.

[Kaisos Erranon]

That kinzo was destroyed in court remember by one of the witches I think, it was a delusion of Natsuhi.

I know he shows up in scenes Natsuhi isn't present for, though. :heh:

Remember that I have yet to play Ep5.

[Dlanor .A. Nox]

That I did not know lol

[Kaisos Erranon]

That I did not know lol

That's fine, fine. I've read most of the summaries, so I have a general idea of what happened, but as for the details...

[Ssol]

Well, like I said, how much of the stuff Goldsmith says is really representative of how Kinzo thought when he was alive?

For that matter, what the hell is Goldsmith, anyway? I'm not quite sure whether or not he's just an illusion or a being on the same level as, say, Ronove and Gaap.

The only scene that can be trusted regarding Kinzo outside of episode 5 is the 1967 flash back because of "those two actually had a conversation like that in this place."

It's interesting that they completely cut it out of the anime...

[Kaisos Erranon]

The only scene that can be trusted regarding Kinzo outside of episode 5 is the 1967 flash back because of "those two actually had a conversation like that in this place."

So that's the only real gauge we have of his personality. One scene. Where he is creeping on a girl who is most likely his daughter.

Great man, indeed. :heh:

[Dlanor .A. Nox]

That's fine, fine. I've read most of the summaries, so I have a general idea of what happened, but as for the details...

I just read the summaries too.....details are probably going to turn this around when the patch is released and someone does a complete summary. -too poor to get the episodes one at a time-

[Kaisos Erranon]

The minute I can get my hands on that translation patch, I'll be digging for little details.

In the meantime I've been reading a lot of mysteries, trying to work on my detecting ability.

[chounokoe]

I'd think that, for most of the games, the killer and the staker are one and the same, given the way the victim's injuries match the epitaph.

The only game where this is not true is Ep4.

(Also, the stakes can easily be weapons, as I continue to state. They're sharp enough to kill, just not sharp enough to stab people in the head with.)

Yet why would the killer resolve to using a stake to kill in the 2 only possible twilights where their hittingspot is actually deadly AND can be performed without a device propelling them into the body.
Those only two instances are 胸を抉りて殺せ (gouge the chest and kill) and 腹を抉りて殺せ (gouge the stomach and kill).
As you said, the head is unlikely to be pierced by such a weapon wielded with bare hands and the others spots aren't likely to be instantly deadly, they are even treatable.

Of course I also think it is very probable for the staker to be at least a helper to the actual culprit (this would explain why Beatrice/Eva-Beatrice) orders the stakes to pierce the bodies after death. Yet it is not true that the Episode 4 is the only game where the wounds match the epitaph.
Actually the only twilight with matching wounds is 頭 (head),　胸 (chest) and 腹 (stomach), which is no wonder that they are aims of for example a gun considering that those are deadly spots...it would explain to a large extent why there is always a mess-up between the order we saw people die as twilights and how they appeared in the listing.
For example in Episode 2's twilights involving Shannon, George and Gohda, Gohda was the second of them to become a twilight, even though he died first and George and Shannon were shown dying together. If the staker has no idea in what order people died, he just uses the wounds he finds on corpses around the island and sticks the stakes in the right places.


Don't forget that most of what we see of Kinzo is actually 'Goldsmith', Kinzo's magical ghost duplicate thing... I doubt much of anything he's ever said is representative of the real Kinzo, and everything else we hear about him is from his children, all of whom hate him.

Fact is we know very little real, concrete information about the guy, other than perhaps the history Genji gives us.

That is true. The only thing we know is that up till some point in 1985 there existed a man named Ushiromiya Kinzo on Rokkenjima, who is the father/grandfather of certain people on the island.
That exactly is the problem I see with Kinzo...so far we've only seen Goldsmith and Natsuhi's Kinzo, the closest we came to real Kinzo were to instances.
One was the memory of Eva, which may be tainted, but I see no reason for her to lie to herself about her father denying her her wishes.
The other is the conversation between a girl resembling the later designed portrait of a female (who is said to be Beatrice) and Kinzo in the garden of Kuwadorian.
Everything else is of course only second hand information.

For that matter, what the hell is Goldsmith, anyway? I'm not quite sure whether or not he's just an illusion or a being on the same level as, say, Ronove and Gaap.

That remains a really, really good question.
I still have this odd image in my mind of the culprit pulling a stuffed Kinzo corpse along...even though this is highly unlikely, the only thing that was said is, that everyone in the dining room in Episode 4 saw Kinzo, I think it was never actually put into words that it was Kinzo who was telling them about his plans.
So I think Goldsmith is another representation of the culprit, similar to Schoolgirl Beatrice and Eva-Beatrice...so to say he is 'Kinzo-Beatrice' in a way, partly because of what Eva-Beatrice was told about what made her the next Beatrice.

[Kaisos Erranon]

Yet it is not true that the Episode 4 is the only game where the wounds match the epitaph.

I said that Ep4 is the only game where the wounds don't match the epitaph.

[Kaiba]

So how come Nanjo's son said he has seen 20 different vaults?
Don't rememebr well, but was it 20 vaults or 20 vaults with the green light on them? Because if it's the former, than I would argue that the room in and of itself is a secret depository for stuff in general, with the green light vaults being the one used by the Rokkenjima group or whatever.

[Jan-Poo]

A112 was one of those safes that were marked. ......By the way, there were several other safes marked with a green lamp besides that one. I think there were at least 20. There might even have been more in the other corner.

That would be pretty sad if the whole bank only had 20 in total XD

[chronotrig]

Okay, new interview from Ryuukishi. I'm not going to translate the whole thing here for various reasons, but a couple of interesting things popped up.

Not the least of which is the crushing of most of my gold text theory:heh:


As the leader of the witch side, Battler will be forced to continue the serial murders. So he must carry out 13 murders using the game pieces. If he can create a crime that follows the rules of Beatrice's game board and is seen by Lambadelta and Bernkastel, they'll be able to confirm that he understands this world, and the game will be over.

Ryuukishi, jokingly, said that he might even end with EP6...but he also said that ending on either EP7 or EP9 would even be possible as well. In other words, "no comment":heh:It is possible to solve the "who dunnit", "why dunnit", and "how dunnit" for up to EP4 at least, but this is from Ryuukishi's perspective. Just because it would be possible for him doesn't mean that it will be possible for all the readers, coming from their own perspectives.

Some people have already solved about 98% of the epitaph. For the rest, you'd need to be on the actual island. However, if the people who have solved 98% went to Rokkenjima, they would be able to solve the rest in about an hour.

Several people have already guessed the true location of the gold.

In both EP6 and EP7, the full process of solving the epitaph's riddle will be revealed. You'll hear about it bit by bit from characters in the game.

In EP5, the game stopped shortly after Hideyoshi's corspe was discovered, but people who know the "answer" should be able to predict what happens next in the second twilight and beyond.
If you know the "answer", you should be able to understand what gold text is, what conditions it can be used in, and whether it's stronger than red text or not.

If someone knows the answer of the game, they can use the gold even if they aren't the Game Master.

Erika does not know the truth, but Lambdadelta can probably still use the gold.Beato managed to communicate everything she wanted to Battler at the end of EP4.

Episode 6 will probably focus more on 'story' than 'mystery'
And......People also wonder whether content from "Land of the golden witch", which was removed from EP3, was included in EP5.

Ryuukishi: I definitely can't tell you that! It's true that the most vital part of "Land of the golden witch" is in there, but it's such a terrifying bit. Furthermore, it's something that neither Battler nor Erika nor Bernkastel has ever brought up in discussion. Maybe they didn't even realize that it was a riddle. Well, you'll probably find out soon. In EP6, a huge bit of red text info will appear regarding this point......according to the current plan.

How many players have noticed what this content is so far?

Ryuukishi: Zero. ...Well, I'd like to say that, but I can't. This content is extremely venomous. Very powerful.

Is this content deeply related to solving the crimes?

Ryuukishi: I think people who have found the "answer" probably won't have any problems. I wonder if they've realized it's a trick...... It's a very dirty trick.

To put it another way, is it possible to reach the truth of the crime if you haven't noticed this trick?

Ryuukishi: That's hard to say. If you don't see through the part from "Land of the golden witch", you definitely won't be able to reach several vital answers.
However, that content was never really necessary in the first place, so you can reach the truth of the crime with it or without it. Still, it's just so venomous that there's a chance you'll be totally confused. Depending on the situation, it's likely to cause a certain misunderstanding.

[Workworkwork]

Okay, new interview from Ryuukishi. I'm not going to translate the whole thing here for various reasons, but a couple of interesting things popped up.

Not the least of which is the crushing of most of my gold text theory:heh:


As the leader of the witch side, Battler will be forced to continue the serial murders. So he must carry out 13 murders using the game pieces. If he can create a crime that follows the rules of Beatrice's game board and is seen by Lambadelta and Bernkastel, they'll be able to confirm that he understands this world, and the game will be over.

Ryuukishi, jokingly, said that he might even end with EP6...but he also said that ending on either EP7 or EP9 would even be possible as well. In other words, "no comment":heh:It is possible to solve the "who dunnit", "why dunnit", and "how dunnit" for up to EP4 at least, but this is from Ryuukishi's perspective. Just because it would be possible for him doesn't mean that it will be possible for all the readers, coming from their own perspectives.

Some people have already solved about 98% of the epitaph. For the rest, you'd need to be on the actual island. However, if the people who have solved 98% went to Rokkenjima, they would be able to solve the rest in about an hour.

Several people have already guessed the true location of the gold.

In both EP6 and EP7, the full process of solving the epitaph's riddle will be revealed. You'll hear about it bit by bit from characters in the game.

In EP5, the game stopped shortly after Hideyoshi's corspe was discovered, but people who know the "answer" should be able to predict what happens next in the second twilight and beyond.
If you know the "answer", you should be able to understand what gold text is, what conditions it can be used in, and whether it's stronger than red text or not.

If someone knows the answer of the game, they can use the gold even if they aren't the Game Master.

Erika does not know the truth, but Lambdadelta can probably still use the gold.Beato managed to communicate everything she wanted to Battler at the end of EP4.

Episode 6 will probably focus more on 'story' than 'mystery'
And......People also wonder whether content from "Land of the golden witch", which was removed from EP3, was included in EP5.

Ryuukishi: I definitely can't tell you that! It's true that the most vital part of "Land of the golden witch" is in there, but it's such a terrifying bit. Furthermore, it's something that neither Battler nor Erika nor Bernkastel has ever brought up in discussion. Maybe they didn't even realize that it was a riddle. Well, you'll probably find out soon. In EP6, a huge bit of red text info will appear regarding this point......according to the current plan.

How many players have noticed what this content is so far?

Ryuukishi: Zero. ...Well, I'd like to say that, but I can't. This content is extremely venomous. Very powerful.

Is this content deeply related to solving the crimes?

Ryuukishi: I think people who have found the "answer" probably won't have any problems. I wonder if they've realized it's a trick...... It's a very dirty trick.

To put it another way, is it possible to reach the truth of the crime if you haven't noticed this trick?

Ryuukishi: That's hard to say. If you don't see through the part from "Land of the golden witch", you definitely won't be able to reach several vital answers.
However, that content was never really necessary in the first place, so you can reach the truth of the crime with it or without it. Still, it's just so venomous that there's a chance you'll be totally confused. Depending on the situation, it's likely to cause a certain misunderstanding.


The "Answer"?

He might be bullshitting, he might not. I'm too tired to judge it for now.:rolleyes:

I wonder if Battler will murder himself as part of the first twilight?

[Ssol]

In EP5, the game stopped shortly after Hideyoshi's corspe was discovered, but people who know the "answer" should be able to predict what happens next in the second twilight and beyond.
We can predict the order of the serial murders with only 7 of the 13 victims known? So it's just a function where you pick 6 names and the remaining 7 are then given in order. :eyespin::eyespin::eyespin:

If you know the "answer", you should be able to understand what gold text is, what conditions it can be used in, and whether it's stronger than red text or not. If someone knows the answer of the game, they can use the gold even if they aren't the Game Master.
Ah, thanks for destroying my gold truth theory completely. :heh:

"Land of the golden witch"
Episode 6 title?

People also wonder whether content from "Land of the golden witch", which was removed from EP3, was included in EP5.

Ryuukishi: I definitely can't tell you that! It's true that the most vital part of "Land of the golden witch" is in there, but it's such a terrifying bit. Furthermore, it's something that neither Battler nor Erika nor Bernkastel has ever brought up in discussion. Maybe they didn't even realize that it was a riddle. Well, you'll probably find out soon. In EP6, a huge bit of red text info will appear regarding this point......according to the current plan.

How many players have noticed what this content is so far?

Ryuukishi: Zero. ...Well, I'd like to say that, but I can't. This content is extremely venomous. Very powerful.

Is this content deeply related to solving the crimes?

Ryuukishi: I think people who have found the "answer" probably won't have any problems. I wonder if they've realized it's a trick...... It's a very dirty trick.

To put it another way, is it possible to reach the truth of the crime if you haven't noticed this trick?

Ryuukishi: That's hard to say. If you don't see through the part from "Land of the golden witch", you definitely won't be able to reach several vital answers.
However, that content was never really necessary in the first place, so you can reach the truth of the crime with it or without it. Still, it's just so venomous that there's a chance you'll be totally confused. Depending on the situation, it's likely to cause a certain misunderstanding.

I'll have to think about 'Land of the golden witch'. I don't really have a clue right now. :heh:

[Renall]

What is this "Land of the Golden Witch" thing he was talking about? I'm not aware of what he's talking about.

I'm also not sure what you guys are saying about his gold text hint that makes it "destroy" your theories. I'm really not seeing anything here but his usual puffery. He talks a pretty good game, but I think he has way more confidence in people's ability to figure out things based on the information he's provided than he thinks he's revealed himself.

I understand where he's coming from; I ran a few D&D campaigns with some pretty over-complex plots. My players were really smart, but they just didn't notice things I thought they would because I was stringing together hints that were obvious to me but inconsequential to them.

To use Umineko as an example: Let's say I really wanted everybody to suspect Kumasawa, because the person I was really setting up as the villain was Hideyoshi and I wanted to surprise them. But what wound up happening instead was that people focused on, say, Krauss as the "obvious" suspect. They didn't do so for terrible reasons or anything, they just weren't seeing the dots I had laid out and then connecting them the way I would have thought to connect them if it had been me.

That sort of thing just happens. Although I do wonder just who it is who has solved 98% of the epitaph and who is close to the "answer."

[chronotrig]

"Land of the golden witch" was the original name for EP3, and according to Ryuukishi, it was supposed to be the hardest of all the games, supposedly with one big twist that he thought "most people wouldn't get at first". But after EP2, a lot of people were really confused by the magic scenes and stopped reasoning, so he made EP3 a much easier tale and included the Schrodinger's cat analogy, which supposedly wasn't supposed to appear until EP5 or 6. Since then, it seems he's always been on the fence about whether and when to include the parts from the EP3 version of Land of the golden witch in a later episode...and now we know he did include something.

If anyone who knows the truth of the games can use the gold text, seriously hurts my theory. If that were true, anyone who has figured out the game would then be able to change it at will. While it still is possible that anyone who knows the game can change it, it sounds like this would get very messy, with multiple "Game Masters" running around the place.

That said, with my theory, you still would have to know everything about the game to keep your gold text from contradicting any others and therefore use it at all, so maybe it's not totally dead.

[Ssol]

So the most vital part of what was going to be in episode 3 was moved to episode 5.

My guess is this content is regarding the last part of the epitaph. It seems like the riddle is just giving the four rewards but how else can it be interpreted?

[ijriims]

Now the term "Answer" would become one mystified word.

Ryukishi07's golden texts theory should be simple: anyone who knows the "answer" could use the golden texts, up until now, only Beatrice, Battler and Lambda could use.

I suppose the land of the golden riddle referred to the last part of the epitaph: the bestowing of the four treasures by Beatrice in the golden land.

Someone was able to solve the epitaph 98%? I suppose those people figured out what the key was about. Then the whole "gouging" part could only be solved if they arrived at the island. I guess the key was one sentence from some famous book, so anyone who had figured out the meaning of hometown and sweetfish river should identify the sentence.

The most mysterious part would be the last section, and it was not discussed by adults in EP3 or in EP5 at all. So it had a significant impact on the story, but not necessary to reach the "Answer".

------------------------------------------
Did Battler show any romantic inclination towards Beatrice? Not at least as close to KanonXJessica and GeorgeXShannon I should say. Did Beatrice show any romantic inclination towards Battler? Again it was not apparent. Most shipment BeatriceXBattler occurred inside our reader's head actually. And take the extra TIPS Beato's white day into account, Beato gave Battler chocolate not because of love, but out of hoping she would receive something bigger in the white day. I would want to see BeatXBatt as well. But under my hypothesis, piece-Beatrice and piece-Battler would never become a pair, though meta ones still had some chances.

For question about whether Kyrie had talked with Maria at all, you could easily imagine that before this family meeting, Ange was probably playing with Maria and so Kyrie must have interacted with Maria.

And in Ep2, Kyrie said to Rosa that Maria had grown a lot but Rosa did not recognize, it was hint that Kyrie did pay attention to Maria. And do you realize many time Kyrie mentioned to Rosa that child's dream should be protected?

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I think there was a clue that Kyrie was Beatrice's daughter: why Kyrie's name was so westernized like Ushiromiya family when Sumadera family is essentially a Japanese traditional one? Because Beatrice was foreigner so she gave Kyrie a Western name and Kasumi was Kyrie's half sister with the same father only.

---------------------------------------------------------------

My understanding of why Shannon seemed not so happy about the proposal was because she knew she could have died in the family meeting.

And for why Eva did not say anything about the incident, it might be because she did not understand it completely, and second because she did involve in some murders (Batter, Rosa, Maria, Krauss and Natsuhi) so she was unwilling to incriminate herself by saying anything.
---------------------------------------------------------------

I predicted no murder occurred after 2 nd twilight in Ep5, since the whole 2nd twilight was to frame Natsuhi and eliminate her (by putting her in jail), Eva and Hideyoshi while 1st twilight was to eliminate all the cousins, Rosa, Krauss. So the ultimate result was Battler's family getting most of the gold (when you think about it, actually Eva was supposed to be killed in the 2nd twilight as well, if it was successful, then finally which family remained alive or not in jail? Rudolf's one).

Why EP5 was different from the previous episodes? Because it contained no love, the motive was so clear about gold but not family anymore. Why it was the case? If you adopt my hypothesis, then everything was so clear...

[chronotrig]

So the most vital part of what was going to be in episode 3 was moved to episode 5.

My guess is this content is regarding the last part of the epitaph. It seems like the riddle is just giving the four rewards but how else can it be interpreted?

Well, the "Land" part has to be a true riddle, something that no one on the mystery side even seems to notice, but also a dirty trick:heh: He never said anything about the trick being related to the name of the game.

The only thing I can think of that satisfies this is the battle in Kinzo's study, the only scene in games 1-5 which both includes magic and is (supposedly) seen by all survivors, including the detective. No one ever mentioned that in the game. Still, it seems a bit obvious, and how could this have been the core part of another episode? Maybe there's some trick to it...as I've suggested, the "meta battle" might have taken place after everyone left the study, and the whole scene was then a lie witnessed by someone. That would indeed be a dirty trick, but maybe a little too dirty ^^;

[Jan-Poo]

"Land of the golden witch" was the original name for EP3, and according to Ryuukishi, it was supposed to be the hardest of all the games, supposedly with one big twist that he thought "most people wouldn't get at first". But after EP2, a lot of people were really confused by the magic scenes and stopped reasoning, so he made EP3 a much easier tale and included the Schrodinger's cat analogy, which supposedly wasn't supposed to appear until EP5 or 6. Since then, it seems he's always been on the fence about whether and when to include the parts from the EP3 version of Land of the golden witch in a later episode...and now we know he did include something.

If anyone who knows the truth of the games can use the gold text, seriously hurts my theory. If that were true, anyone who has figured out the game would then be able to change it at will. While it still is possible that anyone who knows the game can change it, it sounds like this would get very messy, with multiple "Game Masters" running around the place.

That said, with my theory, you still would have to know everything about the game to keep your gold text from contradicting any others and therefore use it at all, so maybe it's not totally dead.

For once that we agreed on something :heh:
I guess that this is major blow for my theory a well. If gold isn't meant to create a game, then I am completely at loss. It looks like this whole think is only about "understanding the game" and "finding the answer". But if red is the truth what is this gold?

In EP5, the game stopped shortly after Hideyoshi's corspe was discovered, but people who know the "answer" should be able to predict what happens next in the second twilight and beyond.

As I suspected, the serial murder didn't stop. Lambda covered practically all the important informations from this game, she didn't even made us watch it until the end. The holes in the story were filled in with lies.

The fact that someone solved 98% of the epitaph shocked me. Can someone have gone that far without having caused a chorus of consensus? If not I want to know which is this theory that covers that much of the epitaph!

Anyway it seems like there is a very dirty trick about Umineko now. It can't have a simple linear solution. It is something related to the very essence of the games and that enforces my idea that they are not what they seem, they are not kakera.

[Marion]

Well you have to consider that it is a lie to some extent. Erika saw Battler jumping out of the window and then catching Beatrice. But according to the narration everyone in the study knew Battler didn't actually jump but just climbed down via the gutter pipe.

[LyricalAura]

The weirdness surrounding Hideyoshi's death (or lack thereof) could fit the bill, since that could easily have been transplanted from another episode. There's also the matter of why there wasn't a second victim for that twilight, which might be related.

Other than that... Could it have something to do with the magic circles? I remember several of the Stakes commenting that they were poorly drawn this time around. Were there any other irregularities about them?

[Kaisos Erranon]

As usual: What the hell is going on? :heh:

I agree with Renall... Ryukishi is overestimating the capability of his readers to sniff out his clues.

Oh well. As long as it's all explained in the end, like in all good mysteries, I won't care. :heh:

Also, more focus on story? Does that mean actual development for the human side? Please say it does...

[Kaiba]

Short response to that interview. "Ah, shit."

Really, I've got a problem. Shannon and George doesn't explain the gold text at all, and since it looks like Episode 5 actually has a continuation after the death of Hideyoshi, I have no idea how that theory can explain Episode 5 at all. Damn, damn.

[Ssol]

Oh well. As long as it's all explained in the end, like in all good mysteries, I won't care. :heh:
The game is to try to figure it all out before the solution is presented.
Also, more focus on story? Does that mean actual development for the human side? Please say it does...
And Battler will have to murder 13 members of his family... I guess that was expected since he is the new game master.

I want to hear more about Battler's immediate family. :)

[chronotrig]

Also, more focus on story? Does that mean actual development for the human side? Please say it does...

Yes, Ryuukishi said they'd focus more on the game board in EP6 to make up for the total lack of game boardness in EP5. EP5 was all about mystery, which is something only the meta world people are really concerned with. Game board people are more concerned with surviving and their parents being dead and all.

[Kaisos Erranon]

The game is to try to figure it all out before the solution is presented.

I'm reading this with the primary purpose of being both surprised and entertained... trying to figure it out myself, while also entertaining, kind of ruins the fun when it turns out that I'm right.

And don't give me that shit about "I'm doing it wrong", different people have different ways of being entertained.

Sorry for the rudeness, but that's a sentiment I highly disagree with. :heh:

And Battler will have to murder 13 members of his family... I guess that was expected since he is the new game master.

On another tack, this is going to be an interesting turning point in his development.

Yes, Ryuukishi said they'd focus more on the game board in EP6 to make up for the total lack of game boardness in EP5. EP5 was all about mystery, which is something only the meta world people are really concerned with. Game board people are more concerned with surviving and their parents being dead and all.

THANK GOD!

The humans always struck me as more interesting, to begin with...

[Ssol]

I'm reading this with the primary purpose of being both surprised and entertained... trying to figure it out myself, while also entertaining, kind of ruins the fun when it turns out that I'm right.

And don't give me that shit about "I'm doing it wrong", different people have different ways of being entertained.

Sorry for the rudeness, but that's a sentiment I highly disagree with. :heh:

Not rude at all. Good answer. :heh:
It's kinda like why I enjoy the anime so much.

But being able to predict some of the murders, like Ryukishi said we should be able to do, might be useful. :p

[Kaisos Erranon]

But being able to predict some of the murders, like Ryukishi said we should be able to do, might be useful. :p

True... but this all-encompassing "Answer" of Ryukishi's is probably only known by one person... him. :heh: He's either trolling or vastly overestimating the ability of his fanbase to find tiny clues.

This is why creating a mystery released in biannual segments generally isn't done. It gets silly.

[chronotrig]

Ryuukishi actually made a point about this in the interview. He said that Umineko fans are divided into two very different camps: people who enjoy the story, and people who enjoy the mystery aspect. EP5 leaned heavily towards the latter group, so EP6 will be there for the former.

There's nothing wrong with being in either camp. As the creators say, they're both equally valid ways to "play" the game.


I'd also like to add that succeeding in stumping the entire fanbase with a puzzle that is actually solvable is more of an achievement than anything bad:heh:
According to Ryuukishi, a lot of people have gotten very close to the answer. You can't claim the story isn't solvable until you hear the answer for yourself.

[ameskitty]

So wait, is he implying that everybody still surviving in EP 5 is going to die? I figured as much but...oh, what an interesting afterworld with only those 10 people that would've made. (I wish I - heck, anybody :heh: - knew the "answer" - all I can say is that I'm fairly confident at this point that all of them are going to explode/go "missing") I had hopes that perhaps not since the gold was discovered, but when I thought about it that didn't stop Jessica from asploding in EP 3.

I'm guessing this "venomous" thing he's talking about is some sort of closed room trick or something related to the manner in which bodies are discovered. I also have a feeling that it'll be one collective, huge "d'oh" moment when we figure out what it is XD.

Very, very glad to hear that we'll be getting more "people" stories in EP 6...the lack of pairings acting like pairings (and really the absence of every character as a "character" except for Natsuhi 3: and maybe Krauss) kind of made the game...lose something. Kind of like a "game with no love", as Ronove was saying (although I know he was referring to the mystery aspect of it, but only focusing on pertinent characters is just as much omitting "love").

And yes, I consider myself a "story" reader. I've never been good at mysteries :heh:. Although I do have theories I'm fairly sure they'll be crushed, and that thought actually excites me (as it does for most mysteries).

Also, I get the feeling that Battler is at least partially wrong about something, even having reached the "answer".

[Kaisos Erranon]

You can't claim the story isn't solvable until you hear the answer for yourself.

I'm not saying it isn't solvable... I'm saying that Ryukishi has succeeded in making a mystery so convoluted that no one will solve it. :heh:

[chronotrig]

I'm not saying it isn't solvable... I'm saying that Ryukishi has succeeded in making a mystery so convoluted that no one will solve it. :heh:

Well, Higurashi was also a game you solve in retrospect:heh:
The point is that he can make a game that is actually solvable. Given enough time and patience and intelligence, it could eventually be solved. If he can do that and still keep hardly anyone from solving it, that's a masterpiece. Especially if there's a way to eliminate less likely solutions.

And Ryuukishi has said that people have succeeded in solving large parts of it, so you can't say that no one will solve it.
The few dozen active people on this thread don't represent everyone.

[ijriims]

I somehow got the idea that real Beatrice had communication with meta-Beatrice. I meant piece-Beatrice knew all the games actually, though she was unable to know the meta-world information (like the red texts). It was hinted in EP4 when piece Beatrice talked with meta-Beatrice.

So real Beatrice was like Rika.

If it was true, then every theories have to be rewritten.

But then, it explained why in different Ep the killing orders were so different.

[Kaisos Erranon]

And Ryuukishi has said that people have succeeded in solving large parts of it, so you can't say that no one will solve it.

Renall said it before, but solving large parts of it isn't the same as solving the whole, i.e. the "Answer".

Until it can all be put together, it's not solved, and something is preventing people from doing just that.

I somehow got the idea that real Beatrice had communication with meta-Beatrice. I meant piece-Beatrice knew all the games actually, though she was unable to know the meta-world information (like the red texts). It was hinted in EP4 when piece Beatrice talked with meta-Beatrice.

So real Beatrice was like Rika.

Actually, the way they talk about Beatrice in Ep1 is exactly the same way the cast talked about Oyashiro-sama in Higurashi.

She 'exists'. Note the quotations.

It's very possible that Beato is the Hanyuu to someone... Maria?

[ijriims]

Actually, the way they talk about Beatrice in Ep1 is exactly the same way the cast talked about Oyashiro-sama in Higurashi.

She 'exists'. Note the quotations.

It's very possible that Beato is the Hanyuu to someone... Maria?

I would say Real Beatrice was someone like Rika rather than Hanyuu.

The game is of course solvable, with even many possible hypotheses....just that you don't buy most of them.

For example, a theory like"Renon killed Shannon on 4th Oct and imposed her, combined with pony theory as motive" could explain all events. It "solved" the game, but you never buy it.

I suppose my current hypothesis (CURRENT ONE, I have to emphasize as I revise it on a nearly daily basis) was close to "Answer", as it kind of fit the events in EP5 and solved EP1, 3 and 4, (with EP2 missing in details how the six were killed in the chapel) as well as motives and background. So far, I do not read any hard reasoning opposing my hypothesis.

That something which precluded the people from realizing it was the lack of imaginative power, preconceptions, shipments, and carelessness, etc.

[Kaisos Erranon]

I would say Real Beatrice was someone like Rika rather than Hanyuu.

"Beato" always refers to Meta-Beatrice.

[ijriims]

Then I would say Lambda to Beato was like Hanyuu to Rika (not their relationship was alike, I am referring the source of Beato's power was like Rika drawing power from Hanyuu) rather than Beato being Hanyuu herself.

[k//eternal]

And Ryuukishi has said that people have succeeded in solving large parts of it, so you can't say that no one will solve it.
The few dozen active people on this thread don't represent everyone.

Even if the real answer were to turn up in these threads, I doubt most people would recognize it :heh:

While a lot of really crack theories turn up, I do think we've had some good ones, so you never know, right?

[Jan-Poo]

What bothers me the most is the epitaph, because he said that 98% of it has been solved. However most theories I have seen do not go further after finding the key. I think the ones that even try to explain the whole thing can be counted on the finger of a single hand. So wtf? Is there such a theory and no one ever heard of it? I've seen so many lame and incomplete theories coming from japanese forums and no one posted a complete and logic one?

Ryukishi in the novels said that once you understand what the village is everything becomes clear, it decribes it as a "snap snap, everything falls into place" effect.

So what's the problem here? How can someone have found that much and still not having received a general consensus?

[chounokoe]

I still don't understand where people suddenly got the idea of exploding characters and landslides. I don't know but shouldn't it be mentioned if the house or huge portions of land had been destroyed, even during a natural source like the typhoon. I still have the idea that there is a perfectly sane explanation for those characters dying.
We actually SAW them all dead in Episode 4, except Battler and Kanon who was missing again, someone must have killed at least Maria at this point, so there has to be a more rational way then to say 'After the game ended the bombs exploded'.

Today I actually wondered if not Episode 4 is the real mess-up during the Episodes (sorry by the way for the last post...I forgot to write a 'not' which was rather important) and the only Episode that went perfectly according to the plan of the culprit was Episode 3.
Assuming there is a culprit, whose aim it is to kill a certain person or group and wants to cover that up through the story of the golden witch. The problem is, there are always people like Battler who will question the supernatural, so for those we need an important safety line...that's a fake culprit.

In Episode 5 Natsuhi was framed, so why not also in Episode 1? It would explain why she was the only one to survive in the mansion and it could have been planned from the beginning to lure someone from the Guesthouse to the mansion.
In the end Natsuhi stood up against the mysterious blackmailer, confronted him in the mansion hall, but was killed.
In Episode 2 Rosa was the unexpected survivor, having been in the chapel with the parents and mysteriously without alibi for the crucial time. Later she reformed, after she learned that Maria wouldn't survive (or something like that) and betrayed the culprit, leading to her death.
In Episode 3 we know it was Eva who was used as a decoy, only she seemed to have played along, got the money (note how she copied the code on the door even though she pretended to have no idea what it is) and escaped with her life, but went insane.
In Episode 4 it would be perfectly following the chain of events if Kyrie was the woman to step into the role of the culprit. But she (being more rational than the former three) stood up against the culprit, leading to her death. The only thing she could submit to Battler were that he is dealing with someone who obviously seems to dislike his plans being destroyed so much, he is ready to do anything.

Following that logic we can actually say some things about the people who would be killed in Episode 5's aftermath, as Ryukishi said.
After the logic 'tear up those who are close' the only person who qualifies as the next victim is again Eva, creating the 2nd twilight.
In every Episode Kanon died of a chest wound, so if he were to turn up, he would again be 'gouge the chest and kill'.
Kinzo is proven dead, so if Erika survives, this is truth to the future-world, so his corpse can't turn up among the sacrifices. Therefore we need 4 others.
Battler cannot die among them because he is always the last on the island to die, even if someone else leaves (see Episode 3) and neither can Natsuhi, because she is the 'culprit'.
This leaves Rudolph, Kyrie, Kumasawa, Gohda, Nanjo and Shannon.
Rudolph, Kyrie and Shannon died as sacrifices in each Episode (even assuming Kyrie was a mess up in Episode 4, she would have to die again), this leaves one other person...this one I can't quite explain.

Of course this is only a theory so far, but it looks rather possible to me, even if it relies on a killer, either among the people not yet suspected or an outside killer, which is still hard to prove.
Well...we will see what Battler dishes.

[ijriims]

I still don't understand where people suddenly got the idea of exploding characters and landslides. I don't know but shouldn't it be mentioned if the house or huge portions of land had been destroyed, even during a natural source like the typhoon. I still have the idea that there is a perfectly sane explanation for those characters dying.


The reason why bomb or landslide was proposed since in EP4 it was stated in red texts that at the moment Battler was killed, he was the only human alive on Rokkenjima and no influence outside the island. So it must be something inanimate killing him.

If it was true in Ep4, then one had to think about whether the same thing happened in EP1-3 as well. In fact, in the scene of 1998 in EP4 (which should be future of EP3), Ange could not find the mansion at all, as well as in Ep1 only body pieces were found in the end. So it was valid to say the same disaster happened in at least EP1 and EP3 as well.

BTW, I do not know who the real culprit you are talking about. But it seemed that Natsuhi, Rosa, Eva and Kyrie are not the culprit in your theory.

I have to say obviously Natsuhi was not framed in EP1 at all. The fact she was killed and she was with the cousins most of the time already precluded her from being culprit. On the other hand, in Ep5, obviously someone was manipulating behind the scene to frame Natsuhi by ordering her to hide in the room where Hideyoshi was killed.

[LyricalAura]

Actually, the way they talk about Beatrice in Ep1 is exactly the same way the cast talked about Oyashiro-sama in Higurashi.

She 'exists'. Note the quotations.

It's very possible that Beato is the Hanyuu to someone... Maria?

Okay... Crazy theory time.

If Maria is this game's Rika and is taking some actions to try and hunt down the murderer herself, a lot of things get easier to explain. She's got a "dark" personality like Rika, frequently acts much older than her apparent age (such as when she's reading the letters from Beatrice), and has excessive knowledge about things that directly relate to the murders, like the magic circles. She also has strange reactions to certain events. For instance, in Episode 1 she spends a long time staring at the stake in Kinzo's corpse as if there's something very strange about that one specifically. (Side note: that stake is Mammon, the same one that the police found with no blood on it in Episode 4.)

Maria doesn't really have a lot of opportunity to act on her own since she's under almost constant supervision by multiple people, so any moves she makes against the murderer would have to be indirect most of the time. She's only consistently alone after she fights with her mother about the missing rose on October 4th. It may be that this happens consistently exactly because she discovered that it's a good way to get away from the others. She's also met with Kanon on at least one of these occasions, so there's an opportunity to get him (or someone else) alone and convince them to help her.

Whoever she gets as an ally during this period can act as her catspaw to hunt the murderer down. Given Maria's attitude toward death, we can even explain some secondary murders as her ordering her assistant to eliminate suspects. Kanon works especially well as a helper because he seems to actually believe in Beatrice, based on the kitchen scene in Episode 1, and might be especially easy to convince. He also keeps vanishing and dying under weird circumstances, which could be a result of him doing things on Maria's behalf.

Episode 4 in particular gets much easier to deal with because we don't have to jump through hoops to explain the multiple murderers, missing weapons, or Maria's poisoning. For instance, something like this could have happened:
1. The culprit commits the first twilight murders
2. Kanon kills Kumasawa and Gohda, and goes to wait for Maria at the chapel
3. The culprit kills Kanon
4. Maria goes to the chapel for her "test", finds Kanon dead, and takes his rifle (there is a clue that she knows how to use one from the Episode 2 endgame.)
5. Maria kills Kyrie
6. The culprit completes the ritual using some combination of Maria and Kanon's victims and some new ones
7. The culprit discards their weapon to hide among the survivors
8. Maria kills the remaining people
9. Maria throws away her rifle and commits suicide (possibly by overdosing on her mother's child-use sedatives)


Following that logic we can actually say some things about the people who would be killed in Episode 5's aftermath, as Ryukishi said.
After the logic 'tear up those who are close' the only person who qualifies as the next victim is again Eva, creating the 2nd twilight.
In every Episode Kanon died of a chest wound, so if he were to turn up, he would again be 'gouge the chest and kill'.
Kinzo is proven dead, so if Erika survives, this is truth to the future-world, so his corpse can't turn up among the sacrifices. Therefore we need 4 others.
Battler cannot die among them because he is always the last on the island to die, even if someone else leaves (see Episode 3) and neither can Natsuhi, because she is the 'culprit'.
This leaves Rudolph, Kyrie, Kumasawa, Gohda, Nanjo and Shannon.
Rudolph, Kyrie and Shannon died as sacrifices in each Episode (even assuming Kyrie was a mess up in Episode 4, she would have to die again), this leaves one other person...this one I can't quite explain.
Even though Kinzo is dead, that doesn't mean his corpse won't turn up as one of the sacrifices. Most of the servants who know about the corpse are still alive, and so are most of the other adults who would be fooled by it, so I would actually expect it to show up like it did in Episode 1. Maybe it's even the other sacrifice for the second twilight, if we continue the theme of framing Natsuhi.

[Geekodot]

Ok, I want to raise a possibility here. Please tell me whether or not this is impossible and please give me decisive evidence of that fact.

Furudo Erika did not exist in the world up to this point, nor did she influence it.It is impossible for a human to be in the world and not influence it, furthermore it is impossible to appear just out of nowhere. I can therefore conclude that Furudo Erika does not exist in the real world.

Furudo Erika only increased the head count by one. Not counting her, the number of people on the island is exactly the same as in the preceding games.Furudo Erika increased the head count of characters in the meta world, but not the number of characters on Rokkenjima.

In short, it means that the number of people in this drawing room now is the number of all people on the island.And Furudo Erika is not one of the people in this drawing room.

This theory is backed up by the rule ofno more than 17 humans exist on the island during all games.

Furudo Erika is also declared to be the detective in the 5th game.The detective is however NOT present at Rokkenjima during the game, and the detective is just a role in the meta world.

In episode 5, Battler's perspective is not objetive, this is proved by him seeing Kinzo when he couldn't possibly exist.This allows for most or all of the scenes to be fake. Many of the scenes including Erika are obviously fake because they contain lots of magic elements, which further supports the hypothesis that Erika is not present.

There is also a theory that the fake scenes are only allowed to exist if someone lies about it or all the witnesses to the scene dies. If there were to be no survivors in the 5th game and Battler's view is not objective, then it is possible that everything that occurs on the island is fake except for the events proven to be real by red text.

This is just a thought I had, but I want to know if it is possible.

or when I think about it, I can discard the whole hypothesis myself :D


-Erika, Nanjo, and Gohda spent 1 o'clock in the morning to 3 o'clock in the morning in the lounge on the first floor of the guest house.

-After 24 o'clock, Erika was together with Nanjo all the way until 3 o'clock in the morning.

-Both your seals and the red truth are perfect. Nanjo has the alibi of having been together with Erika until 3 o'clock in the morning. And from 3 o'clock in the morning and on, he did not leave his room until morning.

It is still not impossible however, that someone else on the island among the characters we already know represents Erika in this game, and that would allow for Erika to be present with the red truth in these cases.

That is quite a stretch though xD

I think one thing is clear even with all this though...

Furudo Erika did not exist in the world up to this point, nor did she influence it. is impossible... unless there is some trick to her character.

[ijriims]

Furudo Erika did not exist in the world up to this point, nor did she influence it. is impossible... unless there is some trick to her character.

That's why it was a miracle, which was set up by the "witch of the miracle".

[Geekodot]

That's why it was a miracle, which was set up by the "witch of the miracle".

The red is always true.No matter the miracle, it is impossible for someone to simply appear in the real world.

[LyricalAura]

Ok, I want to raise a possibility here. Please tell me whether or not this is impossible and please give me decisive evidence of that fact.

Furudo Erika did not exist in the world up to this point, nor did she influence it.It is impossible for a human to be in the world and not influence it, furthermore it is impossible to appear just out of nowhere. I can therefore conclude that Furudo Erika does not exist in the real world.

Oh, wow. That would be magnificent bastardry even for Ryukishi. And I don't think I can refute it either.

or when I think about it, I can discard the whole hypothesis myself :D


-Erika, Nanjo, and Gohda spent 1 o'clock in the morning to 3 o'clock in the morning in the lounge on the first floor of the guest house.

-After 24 o'clock, Erika was together with Nanjo all the way until 3 o'clock in the morning.

-Both your seals and the red truth are perfect. Nanjo has the alibi of having been together with Erika until 3 o'clock in the morning. And from 3 o'clock in the morning and on, he did not leave his room until morning.

It is possible that Erika "spent time with" Nanjo by watching him from the meta world. Meta characters can "exist" on Rokkenjima without being physically present on Rokkenjima. This also explains Erika's perfect observations of the lounge and Battler's room. Perfect observation is not possible in the real world.

Seals created by Erika are perfect because she didn't create any seals. If she did, they are meta artifacts only and cannot be interacted with by pieces.

At the stroke of midnight, Erika existed outside the mansion, but with my theory above that's already meaningless. :uhoh::uhoh:

[ameskitty]

I still don't understand where people suddenly got the idea of exploding characters and landslides. I don't know but shouldn't it be mentioned if the house or huge portions of land had been destroyed, even during a natural source like the typhoon. I still have the idea that there is a perfectly sane explanation for those characters dying.
At least in the case of exploded I think we're just referring to the state of the bodies, not necessarily how they died :heh:. I agree that there is a solution out there (for how everybody dies at midnight as long as they're in the main house area), but I'm baffled as to what could really be killing them without leaving something obvious behind. (nope, I definitely can't buy the landslide theory either :/)

I've always jokingly said small bombs, but that's not likely at all really XD.

[Jan-Poo]

Ok, I want to raise a possibility here. Please tell me whether or not this is impossible and please give me decisive evidence of that fact.

Furudo Erika did not exist in the world up to this point, nor did she influence it.It is impossible for a human to be in the world and not influence it, furthermore it is impossible to appear just out of nowhere. I can therefore conclude that Furudo Erika does not exist in the real world.

Furudo Erika only increased the head count by one. Not counting her, the number of people on the island is exactly the same as in the preceding games.Furudo Erika increased the head count of characters in the meta world, but not the number of characters on Rokkenjima.

In short, it means that the number of people in this drawing room now is the number of all people on the island.And Furudo Erika is not one of the people in this drawing room.

This theory is backed up by the rule ofno more than 17 humans exist on the island during all games.

Furudo Erika is also declared to be the detective in the 5th game.The detective is however NOT present at Rokkenjima during the game, and the detective is just a role in the meta world.

In episode 5, Battler's perspective is not objetive, this is proved by him seeing Kinzo when he couldn't possibly exist.This allows for most or all of the scenes to be fake. Many of the scenes including Erika are obviously fake because they contain lots of magic elements, which further supports the hypothesis that Erika is not present.

There is also a theory that the fake scenes are only allowed to exist if someone lies about it or all the witnesses to the scene dies. If there were to be no survivors in the 5th game and Battler's view is not objective, then it is possible that everything that occurs on the island is fake except for the events proven to be real by red text.

This is just a thought I had, but I want to know if it is possible.

or when I think about it, I can discard the whole hypothesis myself :D


-Erika, Nanjo, and Gohda spent 1 o'clock in the morning to 3 o'clock in the morning in the lounge on the first floor of the guest house.

-After 24 o'clock, Erika was together with Nanjo all the way until 3 o'clock in the morning.

-Both your seals and the red truth are perfect. Nanjo has the alibi of having been together with Erika until 3 o'clock in the morning. And from 3 o'clock in the morning and on, he did not leave his room until morning.

It is still not impossible however, that someone else on the island among the characters we already know represents Erika in this game, and that would allow for Erika to be present with the red truth in these cases.

That is quite a stretch though xD

I think one thing is clear even with all this though...

Furudo Erika did not exist in the world up to this point, nor did she influence it. is impossible... unless there is some trick to her character.

I have thought about this myself, but if you assume that the gameboard is a real thing you'd get stucked in many points.
Let me show you the only way I can think of to make this work:

Furudo Erika cannot exist in the real world. I think you can agree until this point. Furudo Erika, however, can be in the gameboard. The gameboard is not the real world. The gameboard is a fictional world created by Beatrice, and by Lambda in Ep5

I've been stating this since a while but now I have even more reasons:

As the leader of the witch side, Battler will be forced to continue the serial murders. So he must carry out 13 murders using the game pieces. If he can create a crime that follows the rules of Beatrice's game board and is seen by Lambadelta and Bernkastel, they'll be able to confirm that he understands this world, and the game will be over.


So now Battler becomes a murderer... it doesn't matter if he makes other people do it, he'd still be guilty of mass murder. Does it really matter if it is not his kakera (so who cares?) or if they will revive in the end anyway (wasn't he very pissed at that in ep3?). An how exactly this is going to end? He kills 13 people among his relatives and the servants and then "woot, battler wins!" Enjoy your victory with the remaining 3-4 people!

I don't buy this. First I couldn't buy this because I couldn't believe that Beatrice Ronove and Kumasawa could be so indifferent toward human life, but now there is even Battler in the picture. The games are not real, the pieces are not real people, the murders are not real. They are exactly what they are called, they are games. Fictional reconstructions of the Rokkenjima serial murder case

And let me add this to clarify my point. Red is not tied to real world events. It is only tied to truths. I can say that Anakin Skywalker is Luke Skywalker's father. Red is effective but it is not a real fact.

[ijriims]

The red is always true.No matter the miracle, it is impossible for someone to simply appear in the real world.

Just accept it as a paradox, since the presence of Erika in EP5 could not have affected EP1-4 anyway. As one can deduce the whodunit, howdunit, and whydunit from EP1-4 alone (from Ryukishi07's interview)

[Riza-chan]

The games are not real, the pieces are not real people, the murders are not real. They are exactly what they are called, they are games. Fictional reconstructions of the Rokkenjima serial murder case



I kinda like your theory but only if that would be the case then after winning the game Battler would return to the real world where everybody was killed and so...no happy ending :(

[chronotrig]

The red line about Erika can also be written as: She does not exist in the worlds before this one, nor does she influence them.

If "worlds" in this sense just refers to location each game takes place in, there's no contradiction here. In other words, this could be the same as saying "she does not exist in or influence anything on Rokkenjima in EP1-4". When Rokkenjima is closed off by the typhoon, it's often referred to as a separate world.

[Geekodot]

The red line about Erika can also be written as: She does not exist in the worlds before this one, nor does she influence them.

If "worlds" in this sense just refers to location each game takes place in, there's no contradiction here. In other words, this could be the same as saying "she does not exist in or influence anything on Rokkenjima in EP1-4". When Rokkenjima is closed off by the typhoon, it's often referred to as a separate world.

Btw Chronotrig, what do you translators do when something like this comes up? It can be read differently and have a completely different meaning right? xD

[ameskitty]

I don't see how there's a complete difference, because the "it" in "nor did she influence it" refers to "the world up to this point", right?

[chronotrig]

Btw Chronotrig, what do you translators do when something like this comes up? It can be read differently and have a completely different meaning right? xD

Well, in this case, I think we follow the intended meaning. But in general, yes, it's a serious pain ^^; And since some weird but plausible theories rely on a particular phrasing for certain lines, we actually have to think up those theories on our own before translating. Simple answer is there's no way to get everything, so it's almost guaranteed that we'll have to go back and change some lines once we know more about the answer.

By the way, here's how I see all this. Despite using several lines to confirm Erika's position, Lambda never says "There are now more people on the island at the start time" or whatever. My guess is that this is because Erika isn't on the island at the start time, but arrives shortly after. It (the number of people on the island) only increased by one person, Furudo Erika. Besides her, the number of people on this island is exactly the same as it was in the previous games. Neither of the two red texts about the number of people say "at the start time..." in them.

[Geekodot]

I don't see how there's a complete difference, because the "it" in "nor did she influence it" refers to "the world up to this point", right?


She does not exist in the worlds before this one, nor does she influence them.
Furudo Erika did not exist in the world up to this point, nor did she influence it.

She did not exist in THE world up to this point, making me doubt her very existence, however if she didn't exist in the worlds before this one, it isn't questionable at all xD

Or to say it better:
She does not exist in the worlds before this one, nor does she influence them. doesn't make me question her existence.

She did not exist in the world up to this point, nor did she influence it. does.

[June 1983]

I wasn't sure where to ask this, but someone posted on rokkenjima@LJ that EP6's title has been announced to be Dawn of the Golden Witch? Where did that come from? Can anyone confirm this? They didn't give a source.

[ameskitty]

Yeah, but especially if it can be translated that other way, "the world" means the gameboard (Rokkenjima), and "up to this point" refers to "in the games played before this one".

I guess if you wanted to you could say something like that but if we're getting tricked on anything I highly doubt it's this.

I wasn't sure where to ask this, but someone posted on rokkenjima@LJ that EP6's title has been announced to be Dawn of the Golden Witch? Where did that come from? Can anyone confirm this? They didn't give a source.

Found in the comments: http://item.rakuten.co.jp/auc-papermoon/d-umi06/

Probably reliable but you never know. Ooh, I like that title :).

[Jan-Poo]

By the way, here's how I see all this. Despite using several lines to confirm Erika's position, Lambda never says "There are now more people on the island at the start time" or whatever. My guess is that this is because Erika isn't on the island at the start time, but arrives shortly after. It (the number of people on the island) only increased by one person, Furudo Erika. Besides her, the number of people on this island is exactly the same as it was in the previous games. Neither of the two red texts about the number of people say "at the start time..." in them.

At the starting time of the game more than half of the cast isn't on the island.

I don't think that's the issue here. Erika could have been on the island at any given time.

[June 1983]

*dance* Oh man, I hope it's true. I want to know more about this game! And that sounds like such a good title!

[Raneh]

If you read it Furudo Erika did not exist in the world up to this point, nor did she influence it. then it basically means she was never there.
However if you read it She does not exist in the worlds before this one, nor does she influence them. in the present tense it could be possible she just died in all other worlds before the game started, I don't think a dead person 'exists' that way. Albert Einstein surely existed but he's long gone so he doesn't exist in today's world.
I can't read the exact sentence in japanese so I'm just using those two others have translated.

(...Or maybe Bern just timetraveled again and worked as a pimp.)

[LyricalAura]

If you read it Furudo Erika did not exist in the world up to this point, nor did she influence it. then it basically means she was never there.
However if you read it She does not exist in the worlds before this one, nor does she influence them. in the present tense it could be possible she just died in all other worlds before the game started, I don't think a dead person 'exists' that way. Albert Einstein surely existed but he's long gone so he doesn't exist in today's world.
I can't read the exact sentence in japanese so I'm just using those two others have translated.

(...Or maybe Bern just timetraveled again and worked as a pimp.)

Actually, that interpretation is supported by red. Kinzo is a real person, and his corpse is definitely on the island, but it was possible for Battler to state that Kinzo does not exist.

[Jan-Poo]

これまでの世界には存在しないし、影響も与えないわ

Imho it can be translated either way. It is ambiguous since "world" could mean the world of the games(i.e. the closed off Rokkenjima between 4 and 5 October) or the real world. There is no way to determine for sure what's the real meaning.

[chronotrig]

At the starting time of the game more than half of the cast isn't on the island.

I don't think that's the issue here. Erika could have been on the island at any given time.

No, the starting time of the game is when the typhoon closes over the island, but you still have a point. The red text about the number of people on the island doesn't actually say "at the starting time", so there's no need for Erika to arrive after the game starts. Forget what I said earlier:heh: The "no 18th person" rule doesn't apply to future games, so it didn't apply to EP5 anyways.

[ameskitty]

これまでの世界には存在しないし、影響も与えないわ

Imho it can be translated either way. It is ambiguous since "world" could mean the world of the games(i.e. the closed off Rokkenjima between 4 and 5 October) or the real world. There is no way to determine for sure what's the real meaning.

Well, even with that, I think it's still quite a stretch from the context to say that "she didn't exist in THE world" :/.

[Jan-Poo]

-In other words, no 18th person X exists!! This applies to all games!!!

As far as I can tell this doesn't say anything about the starting of the game, so if it worked for future games Erika couldn't exist in any way ^^; short of a shkannon theory or similar.


Btw I always assumed that the game goes from "October 4 - 0.00 Am" to "October 5 - 24:00"
why are you so sure it only starts after the island gets closed off?


Well, even with that, I think it's still quite a stretch from the context to say that "she didn't exist in THE world" :/.

it says exactly that, this is the more direct interpretation. The context explained by a trolling Bern is hardly reliable to me. Especially after I know how can she use reds for her evil schemes.

[chronotrig]

Btw I always assumed that the game goes from "October 4 - 0.00 Am" to "October 5 - 24:00"
why are you so sure it only starts after the island gets closed off?

No proof, but Beato always says so. It'd be weird to try and trick Battler on something like that, so I think it's likely that that time does mark the start of the game. Also, it's the time that the cat box closes over Rokkenjima, so it makes more sense for the game to start then.

[Kaisos Erranon]

*gameboard hypothesis*

So, as usual, Ep1 is the only "real" game, correct?

...Yeah, that really doesn't seem to preclude a happy ending...

[Jan-Poo]

Actually I don't know, it was defined as a "game" as well. It might look more real because it is the one with the fewer magic scenes, but that isn't a guarantee.

[Renall]

Two things:

The "Nasty Trick": You guys are now looking for a trick because ryukishi said there was a trick. But wait a second. Who's to say we haven't already found the trick? Maybe we're among those people really close to the "answer." It would not surprise me if a 90% or so correct explanation for one or more episodes has already come up here. And it wouldn't surprise me if, in the ep5 discussion, the trick has already been discovered. Battler's unreliable perspective, the study, the faked death (or deaths!), the frame job, the time trick with the letter... there are lots of things that could be "tricks" to someone who hasn't given the story as much thought as people here have. Why are you so uncertain that you haven't already spotted the trick? Maybe he wants you going looking for some crack in your assumptions, make you doubt yourself. Doesn't mean you aren't right...

Fictional Reconstruction vs. Time Loop: Morally, there is no difference. It would be equally despicable for Battler to kill fictional entities who look, talk, act, breathe, and suffer like his family as it would to kill the real thing and resurrect them later. In either case the act is extremely difficult and I assume Battler has no intention of just picking some culprits and killing people with a ritual murder to satisfy the witches he just declared war on. While Battler may have to kill characters on the board (something that is evil, but that he clearly does not want to do), whatever the board may be, I have to think he's planning something. Would he have accepted the position of game master if he didn't have a plan for what to do with his new position? I wonder if he won't be using his control over the board as much to work out the kinks in the truth himself as to vex Erika's ability to solve things.

[Archer]

Two things:

The "Nasty Trick": You guys are now looking for a trick because ryukishi said there was a trick. But wait a second. Who's to say we haven't already found the trick? Maybe we're among those people really close to the "answer." It would not surprise me if a 90% or so correct explanation for one or more episodes has already come up here. And it wouldn't surprise me if, in the ep5 discussion, the trick has already been discovered. Battler's unreliable perspective, the study, the faked death (or deaths!), the frame job, the time trick with the letter... there are lots of things that could be "tricks" to someone who hasn't given the story as much thought as people here have. Why are you so uncertain that you haven't already spotted the trick? Maybe he wants you going looking for some crack in your assumptions, make you doubt yourself. Doesn't mean you aren't right...

Fictional Reconstruction vs. Time Loop: Morally, there is no difference. It would be equally despicable for Battler to kill fictional entities who look, talk, act, breathe, and suffer like his family as it would to kill the real thing and resurrect them later. In either case the act is extremely difficult and I assume Battler has no intention of just picking some culprits and killing people with a ritual murder to satisfy the witches he just declared war on. While Battler may have to kill characters on the board (something that is evil, but that he clearly does not want to do), whatever the board may be, I have to think he's planning something. Would he have accepted the position of game master if he didn't have a plan for what to do with his new position? I wonder if he won't be using his control over the board as much to work out the kinks in the truth himself as to vex Erika's ability to solve things.

On the subject of this trick, I think there might be some things that we've taken for granted when constructing theories. Since it was never brought up in a discussion with Bern/Erika/Battler, it might have been passed over in favor of topics that the characters themselves emphasized more. If Ryukishi wants to believe that there weren't any players that noticed this trick, then it's probably something that we all may have overlooked or considered insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

I believe in most of the points you made, and there might be theories that have already arrived close to the truth. It doesn't hurt to double-check things, though.

[ijriims]

On the nasty trick:

Ryukishi said it was never brought up in a discussion with Bern/Erika/Battler.

Can it be Lambda's trick? Why Battler could become the golden-sorcerer? Why would Lambda allow Bern to (almost) succeed in framing Natsuhi? Why the game was suddenly cut at that point?


All the pieces except Erika were controlled by Lambda in Ep5, why did Lamda allow Erika to frame Natushi at all? What was her own agenda? And would it affect the whole game?

--------------------------------------------


On whether the gameboards happened in the real world:

All episodes and games happened in the real world. The strongest evidence was that in Ep4 Ange's world was outside Beatrice's game already but continued what happened in EP3.

If all the games were just purely fictional, then Eva could not have survived in EP4 (assuming the real world was that all people died on the Rokkenjima).

--------------------------------------------

On the coming EP6:

Ryukishi07 said that meta-Battler would be forced into following the epigraph. My understanding was that he comprehend the motive behind the real-Beatrice by now and was sympathetic towards it. So he now shall succeed meta-Beatrice's will to use the murders to coerce the people on Rokkenjima to solve the epitaph first, before he would kill people. Obviously, in EP6, Battler would be controlling piece-Beatrice (aka real Beatrice) and all other family members. Though it is not certain whether Erika would (miraculously) come to Rokkenjima again on the gameboard.

[Jan-Poo]

Two things:

The "Nasty Trick": You guys are now looking for a trick because ryukishi said there was a trick. But wait a second. Who's to say we haven't already found the trick? Maybe we're among those people really close to the "answer." It would not surprise me if a 90% or so correct explanation for one or more episodes has already come up here. And it wouldn't surprise me if, in the ep5 discussion, the trick has already been discovered. Battler's unreliable perspective, the study, the faked death (or deaths!), the frame job, the time trick with the letter... there are lots of things that could be "tricks" to someone who hasn't given the story as much thought as people here have. Why are you so uncertain that you haven't already spotted the trick? Maybe he wants you going looking for some crack in your assumptions, make you doubt yourself. Doesn't mean you aren't right...

Fictional Reconstruction vs. Time Loop: Morally, there is no difference. It would be equally despicable for Battler to kill fictional entities who look, talk, act, breathe, and suffer like his family as it would to kill the real thing and resurrect them later. In either case the act is extremely difficult and I assume Battler has no intention of just picking some culprits and killing people with a ritual murder to satisfy the witches he just declared war on. While Battler may have to kill characters on the board (something that is evil, but that he clearly does not want to do), whatever the board may be, I have to think he's planning something. Would he have accepted the position of game master if he didn't have a plan for what to do with his new position? I wonder if he won't be using his control over the board as much to work out the kinks in the truth himself as to vex Erika's ability to solve things.

Battler killing the game pieces wouldn't be different from Ange killing the stakes. It might be still a bad thing under a certain perspective, but not closely as bad as killing a real person, I don't think it is "morally" the same thing.

As for the trick you need to realize it must have the following properties:

1) If you know the "answer" you are likely to realize the trick, but it isn't certain
2) If you don't see through it is unlikely that you'll solve the crime completely

that content was never really necessary in the first place, so you can reach the truth of the crime with it or without it. Still, it's just so venomous that there's a chance you'll be totally confused. Depending on the situation, it's likely to cause a certain misunderstanding.

The "tricks" you mentioned do not really match with such a description.

Now I am most certainly biased, but just follow my reasoning for a while:

If the "trick" in question is that the games aren't real but are fictional stories. It is certainly something you would consider a nasty trick. Powerful? Yeah it completely changes your view of the whole story. Venomous? Why not. Necessary to solve the crime? Not really. But would there be points that still made you confused if you don't understand it? Most certainly.
Has it been discussed by Bern, Erika and Battler? Nope.

I don't want to claim that this is definitely it, but if there is someone that has found the trick already between us, what matches Ryukishi's definition better than mine?

[chronotrig]

If the "trick" in question is that the games aren't real but are fictional stories. It is certainly something you would consider a nasty trick. Powerful? Yeah it completely changes your view of the whole story. Venomous? Why not. Necessary to solve the crime? Not really. But would there be points that still made you confused if you don't understand it? Most certainly.
Has it been discussed by Bern, Erika and Battler? Nope.

I don't want to claim that this is definitely it, but if there is someone that has found the trick already between us, what matches Ryukishi's definition better than mine?

That can't work. Ryuukishi said that the "trick" was something from the original EP3 and was included in EP5...which means it cannot be something that affects the other games directly, though it may be a rule that just doesn't come up in the other games.

I think the meta battle in the study has already been mentioned as a possibility. Whatever it is, Ryuukishi seems to be having a lot of fun with it :heh:

[ijriims]

People also wonder whether content from "Land of the golden witch", which was removed from EP3, was included in EP5.

Ryuukishi: I definitely can't tell you that! It's true that the most vital part of "Land of the golden witch" is in there, but it's such a terrifying bit. Furthermore, it's something that neither Battler nor Erika nor Bernkastel has ever brought up in discussion. Maybe they didn't even realize that it was a riddle. Well, you'll probably find out soon. In EP6, a huge bit of red text info will appear regarding this point......according to the current plan.

How many players have noticed what this content is so far?

Ryuukishi: Zero. ...Well, I'd like to say that, but I can't. This content is extremely venomous. Very powerful.

Is this content deeply related to solving the crimes?

Ryuukishi: I think people who have found the "answer" probably won't have any problems. I wonder if they've realized it's a trick...... It's a very dirty trick.

To put it another way, is it possible to reach the truth of the crime if you haven't noticed this trick?

Ryuukishi: That's hard to say. If you don't see through the part from "Land of the golden witch", you definitely won't be able to reach several vital answers.
However, that content was never really necessary in the first place, so you can reach the truth of the crime with it or without it. Still, it's just so venomous that there's a chance you'll be totally confused. Depending on the situation, it's likely to cause a certain misunderstanding.

Certain key things from this dialogue with regard to the content from "the land of the golden witch"

1.it's something that neither Battler nor Erika nor Bernkastel has ever brought up in discussion.

2.EP5 contained most vital part of it.

3.It was a riddle, a trick, a very dirty one.

4.Several vital answers were related to that content, but one does not need that content to solve the crime scenes.

5. Few people should have realized it, but in EP6 some red texts would directly address to this content according to the plan.

[Renall]

Battler killing the game pieces wouldn't be different from Ange killing the stakes. It might be still a bad thing under a certain perspective, but not closely as bad as killing a real person, I don't think it is "morally" the same thing.

The game pieces are people as far as Battler knows. They appear to be people, they act like the people Battler is friends and family with, they suffer when they and others die. How is it not exactly the same thing to Meta-Battler's perspective? If Beatrice were to be like "Oh by the way, I actually froze Rokkenjima at the moment the game started and everyone's really okay if you help them survive, all those games we played were just made-up stories," would that somehow make Battler not care about the indignities that happened to the people he cared about in them?

It doesn't matter if the events of the game boards are "real," fake, semi-fictional, or whatever. The pieces on them look and act like the "real thing," they live and die and mourn, and they can't be forced to act against their nature. If Battler is truly forced to kill them in his role as game master, it's going to feel to him as if he is personally murdering them. Even if he understands the truth, understands why Beatrice was doing it, and thinks it will help him save them from a greater evil, it's still wrong and he knows it. That's probably why he decided to do it; he knows that unlike the other witches (except Beatrice apparently), he does care about these people and isn't harming them out of malice or boredom. For Battler to even consider taking on the game master's job, he must have something planned.

We'll just have to wait for ep6 to see what that plan is.

[ijriims]

I haven't played EP5 yet. So I have no idea what Battler, Erika and Bern had already discussed.

But consider it was revealed in EP5 and was extremely powerful. Besides all games being unreal as proposed by Jan-Poo, what remained to be the choices:

1. Battler's perception was not reliable even from EP1-4.

2. Solving the epitaphs could never prevent the murders from happening, so no happy ending? (Like 1998 Ange could never get the family back even if Battler successfully defeated Beatrcie)

3. Battler and Erika actaully had not arrived at Golden Land and thus never completely solve the epitaph actually?

4. The game has already ended? Bern and Lambda were already dead?(like Beatrice resurrect Virgilia even though she already killed her, so Beatrice actually killed Bern already?)

Just random thoughts of mine...

[Megaolix]

About the corpses in Episode 5... I can't remember, but they were moved after being found, right? Yet the red state that they weren't moved after death.

Isn't that like Ep2? Everyone was together before Kumasawa and Nanjo's corpses vanished, right?

If we consider that Gohda is innocent (really, is there even a reason to suspect him?) and was with Genji and Shannon the whole time, then they were not involved in this act.

And back then too, time of death wasn't said in red.

...What the hell happened?

Edit: Reread this red of Beatrice on the database: I keep my promises unlike some
Think it's about Battler and involve the sin?

[Renall]

About the corpses in Episode 5... I can't remember, but they were moved after being found, right? Yet the red state that they weren't moved after death.

Erika never saw the corpses, and Battler's perspective in ep5 is unreliable. This means that, to satisfy the red, the corpses can't have been in any room Erika actually checked. Either Battler didn't really see the corpses in there at all, saw something he thought were the corpses but weren't, or really saw everyone and thought they were dead but they weren't.

It's okay for them to be moved BEFORE they're dead. So either that happened, or they didn't die where Erika was led to believe they died.

[ijriims]

Isn't that like Ep2? Everyone was together before Kumasawa and Nanjo's corpses vanished, right?

If we consider that Gohda is innocent (really, is there even a reason to suspect him?) and was with Genji and Shannon the whole time, then they were not involved in this act.

And back then too, time of death wasn't said in red.

...What the hell happened?


I suppose in EP2, what Gohda and SHannon saw were actaully Nanjo and Kumasawa pretending death. And then after Genji's group left the room, Kumasawa unlocked the door and she and Nanjo left.

Genji latter retrieved the keys somewhere and then gave them to Rosa.

Rosa put the key into the envelope and pretended she just discovered it in the room.

At a latter time, Genji killed both Nanjo and Kumasawa for real.

[Jan-Poo]

The game pieces are people as far as Battler knows. They appear to be people, they act like the people Battler is friends and family with, they suffer when they and others die. How is it not exactly the same thing to Meta-Battler's perspective? If Beatrice were to be like "Oh by the way, I actually froze Rokkenjima at the moment the game started and everyone's really okay if you help them survive, all those games we played were just made-up stories," would that somehow make Battler not care about the indignities that happened to the people he cared about in them?

It doesn't matter if the events of the game boards are "real," fake, semi-fictional, or whatever. The pieces on them look and act like the "real thing," they live and die and mourn, and they can't be forced to act against their nature. If Battler is truly forced to kill them in his role as game master, it's going to feel to him as if he is personally murdering them. Even if he understands the truth, understands why Beatrice was doing it, and thinks it will help him save them from a greater evil, it's still wrong and he knows it. That's probably why he decided to do it; he knows that unlike the other witches (except Beatrice apparently), he does care about these people and isn't harming them out of malice or boredom. For Battler to even consider taking on the game master's job, he must have something planned.

We'll just have to wait for ep6 to see what that plan is.

According to this questionable logic, Ryukishi is on par with the worst serial murderer, because he makes stories where people die horrible deaths. I am not going to agree with this.
Or is it that you are saying that Battler doesn't know that the game pieces aren't real persons? But he does, by the time he understood everything he couldn't have missed this particular.

[Renall]

According to this questionable logic, Ryukishi is on par with the worst serial murderer, because he makes stories where people die horrible deaths. I am not going to agree with this.
Or is it that you are saying that Battler doesn't know that the game pieces aren't real persons? But he does, by the time he understood everything he couldn't have missed this particular.
That has nothing to do with anything. There's no real people on which each character of Umineko exactly bases.

Beatrice did not present the events during 1-4 as fiction. If Battler were to suddenly realize it was fiction later, it would not make him a silly person for being angry before that and it wouldn't make him silly for being angry afterwards.

Natsuhi's name, image, and honor were dragged through the mud in ep5. Her personal secrets were aired, she was called crazy, her husband was murdered, and so forth. This is fiction on a grander level, so we recognize that this happens so that she can be redeemed later in the narrative. To Battler, however, it doesn't really make a difference if it's Natsuhi being humiliated and a fictional version of Natsuhi who is exactly like her in every way. She's still being humiliated. Being a made-up story that happens to star a person exactly like her with her name and appearance doesn't suddenly make it nothing to be concerned about.

Beatrice committed evil to attain some greater end. Battler now understands that end, whatever it is. He will also be willing to commit evil to attain it.

[chronotrig]

That has nothing to do with anything. There's no real people on which each character of Umineko exactly bases.

Beatrice did not present the events during 1-4 as fiction. If Battler were to suddenly realize it was fiction later, it would not make him a silly person for being angry before that and it wouldn't make him silly for being angry afterwards.

Natsuhi's name, image, and honor were dragged through the mud in ep5. Her personal secrets were aired, she was called crazy, her husband was murdered, and so forth. This is fiction on a grander level, so we recognize that this happens so that she can be redeemed later in the narrative. To Battler, however, it doesn't really make a difference if it's Natsuhi being humiliated and a fictional version of Natsuhi who is exactly like her in every way. She's still being humiliated. Being a made-up story that happens to star a person exactly like her with her name and appearance doesn't suddenly make it nothing to be concerned about.

Beatrice committed evil to attain some greater end. Battler now understands that end, whatever it is. He will also be willing to commit evil to attain it.

Maybe you can look at it this way instead: the murders are going to happen on the island, and not even Beatrice can stop it. However, in setting up the game, she can affect the order and manner of killings. In a situation like this, she has no control whatsoever over the number of deaths, so you can hardly call her evil. On the other hand, by ordering things in a way that helps Battler, she can possibly do something that breaks the cycle eventually.

[Ssol]

I think it's too early to pass any kind of judgement on Beatrice's methods of trying to show Battler the truth.

[ijriims]

Maybe you can look at it this way instead: the murders are going to happen on the island, and not even Beatrice can stop it. However, in setting up the game, she can affect the order and manner of killings. In a situation like this, she has no control whatsoever over the number of deaths, so you can hardly call her evil. On the other hand, by ordering things in a way that helps Battler, she can possibly do something that breaks the cycle eventually.

In this case, what was the ultimate culprit? Fate? Nature? Or the other higher-end witches?

I think the letter-in-the-bottles strongly suggested that it was Beatrice who executed the murder plan rather than someone she did not know or unable to control.

I hold the same idea as Renall that Battler succeeded Meta-Beatrice's (as well as Real Beatrice's) will to execute her epitaph murder plan as he was sympathetic towards her goal. Obviously he would be more than reluctant to kill off his family members but he would do so if necessary to force them to concentrate on solving the epitaph.

[Jan-Poo]

That has nothing to do with anything. There's no real people on which each character of Umineko exactly bases.

Beatrice did not present the events during 1-4 as fiction. If Battler were to suddenly realize it was fiction later, it would not make him a silly person for being angry before that and it wouldn't make him silly for being angry afterwards.

Natsuhi's name, image, and honor were dragged through the mud in ep5. Her personal secrets were aired, she was called crazy, her husband was murdered, and so forth. This is fiction on a grander level, so we recognize that this happens so that she can be redeemed later in the narrative. To Battler, however, it doesn't really make a difference if it's Natsuhi being humiliated and a fictional version of Natsuhi who is exactly like her in every way. She's still being humiliated. Being a made-up story that happens to star a person exactly like her with her name and appearance doesn't suddenly make it nothing to be concerned about.

Beatrice committed evil to attain some greater end. Battler now understands that end, whatever it is. He will also be willing to commit evil to attain it.

There is absolutely no need to humiliate the characters. I agree that Battler wouldn't condone that even if it is fiction, but what makes you think he will do such a thing, after he stated so vehemently that he hates that?
As long as he doesn't kill them in humiliating ways or horrid ways it is fine... if they are fictional characters.
But if they are not, how the hell is that fine?! How can be killing innocent people for the sake of a game be condoned in any way?!

I don't understand if you are overly sensitive toward mistreating fictional characters, or if you don't understand the gravity of murder.

[Megaolix]

I've been wondering... How does the culprit kill so many people on the first twilight anyway? Hunting them one by one is one thing, but how can the culprit take down a group of people without being attacked back?

Ep1: Except for Gohda and Shannon, the rest were together. Maybe 4 can be taken down if you have the surprise element, but still...
Ep2: If they all walked to the chapel, they were still alive and awake up to that point. Even if not, they were probably still together in the same room. All six were genuine victims, and did not take part in a mutual murder!
Ep3: Doesn't apply, since taking down 3 doesn't look too realistic. Of course, if Genji, Shannon and Kanon weren't even together in the first place, then they were probably killed one by one.
Ep4: Probably the biggest hint of an accomplice. No way just one person can enter and shoot 6 persons without the rest all escaping once the murderer needed to reload.

[Escargotage]

Couldn't they have been poisoned and then have their respective "wounds" given to them? :uhoh:

[Workworkwork]

I'm pretty sure that whatever Ryu07 brought back from "Land of the Golden Witch" was most likely the knock, or at least the elements. Eva-B's was a watered-down version of that, so it makes the most sense to me.

Speaking of which, did he ever give out any details about it besides that it was even worse than Turn? Would there have not been any Moetrice?

[ijriims]

I've been wondering... How does the culprit kill so many people on the first twilight anyway? Hunting them one by one is one thing, but how can the culprit take down a group of people without being attacked back?


Actually, even if they were poisoned beforehand, to move six bodies to the garden shed and did the "makeup" to them, certainly it was a group work.

[B.kun]

It have been shown some pictures of the new EP6, the design of the CD and yes...a new portrait.

http://imagehost.es/files/78910.jpg

http://imagehost.es/files/78908.jpg

http://imagehost.es/files/78912.jpghttp://imagehost.es/files/78911.jpg
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/6483/29000068001175l.jpghttp://imagehost.es/files/78913.jpg
http://imagehost.es/files/78915.jpghttp://imagehost.es/files/78914.jpg
http://imagehost.es/files/78917.jpghttp://imagehost.es/files/78916.jpg

[Ssol]

It have been shown some pictures of the new EP6, the design of the CD and yes...a new portrait.

http://imagehost.es/files/78910.jpg

http://imagehost.es/files/78908.jpg

http://imagehost.es/files/78912.jpghttp://imagehost.es/files/78911.jpg
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/6483/29000068001175l.jpghttp://imagehost.es/files/78913.jpg
http://imagehost.es/files/78915.jpghttp://imagehost.es/files/78914.jpg
http://imagehost.es/files/78917.jpghttp://imagehost.es/files/78916.jpg

What. Jessica and George are the culprits? :heh:

Beatrice is trolling again? :heh:

Also, the 1998 world is back. More info about Juuza.

Battler's portrait is awesome. :)

[Volcanic]

...I actually doubt those are real :/ Compared to the stuff we got for EP5, this is a bit too early for box art. And on top of that, said box art looks too spoilerish, and the style of Battler's portrait looks a lot different. And I doubt news would come just one day after the title comes out.

[Kitsu]

Evil Beato spirit *_*
KanoJesica in the foreground...in the foreground..SHanon und Geroge are on it, too....

Repeat in red!! Those are real and Kitsu has every right to dance.

[Escargotage]

...I actually doubt those are real :/ Compared to the stuff we got for EP5, this is a bit too early for box art. And on top of that, said box art looks too spoilerish, and the style of Battler's portrait looks a lot different. And I doubt news would come just one day after the title comes out.

How would we know the cover is spoilerish? Did you know who Erika was just because she was on the box art? Did you know exactly why Bern was smiling? Did you know why Beato's hair was down? ;)

Regardless, I'm taking these as truth, and as such, I am loving Battler's new portrait. It is a bit odd to see more of 1998 though since I thought it was implied Ange died on Rokkenjima, unless this is prior to Eva's death.

[Antera Caramichael]

If you say it's a troll, i won't forgive you!
Because... I almost cry... Battler... 1998... Beato... It is exactly as I imagined, as I hoped to be!

Actually, I don't understand the pics, can someone translate please?
Then, it is for me coherent: a new 1998 is actually possible and could be interresting, since it would reveal since the beginning who was left alive, if there was, and how Ange lived in this new world.
We were revealed that Battler would continue the game, which stick with his face in the portrait: Sad, Melancolic, Dreaming, Looking Away... It completely change from the others, which were pretty classical. It is just like we passed from the 18th to the 19th century (Classic to Romantic).
The fact that the cover shows us the young couples and Beato is for me normal: As Ep5 was like Ep1 focused on Natsuhi, Ep6 would be like Ep2, focused on the young. Plus, we were shown a pretty sentimental Beato in Ep2, maybe will us be revealed some hints about this?
In brief, I find nothing that can show this is a troll, but since I can't read japanese... well...

[Nifty]

Holy crap, is that a kagu episode I see? Because I'm getting jittery. ♥
I'll hold back on dancing like a maniac until I see some confirmation, but that Battler portrait looks rather genuine.

[Kitsu]

I'll hold back on dancing like a maniac until I see some confirmation, but that Battler portrait looks rather genuine.

Already to late for me ToT

[B.kun]

I dare to say in red, The images are real, all were taked from the same site where we obtained the first ones of EP5, so I realy trust that. Also next sunday starts the reservation to buy the game on multiple japanese websites, so I think it's logical that they show us some pics to call attention idk.

I agree that a new portrait looks different from the previous ones, but even if it's not real I liked it.

Here's the source of the images, open with IE because Firefox crash to me when I open with it. : http://d-stage.com/shop/detail.php?seq=11975

[Volcanic]

How would we know the cover is spoilerish? Did you know who Erika was just because she was on the box art? Did you know exactly why Bern was smiling? Did you know why Beato's hair was down? ;)

LOL, That's true. It may be from the fact that we already had the EP5 OP out when we got the box art :heh: Might be just me, it just looks like "GEORGE AND JESSICA ARE THE CULPRITS AND BEATO TROLLED US AGAIN" just from the cover, which seems like pretty huge spoilers. Unless Ryukishi is trolling us again, which I'm sure he is.

It is a bit odd to see more of 1998 though since I thought it was implied Ange died on Rokkenjima, unless this is prior to Eva's death.

Judging from EP5, maybe it's the world where her whole family lives, but they end up hiring Amakusa as her bodyguard anyway in some stroke of luck?

We were revealed that Battler would continue the game, which stick with his face in the portrait: Sad, Melancolic, Dreaming, Looking Away... It completely change from the others, which were pretty classical. It is just like we passed from the 18th to the 19th century (Classic to Romantic).

From the screens, it looks like Battler's channeling his inner stoic. xD

EDIT:
I dare to say in red, The images are real, all were taked from the same site where we obtained the first ones of EP5, so I realy trust that. Also next sunday starts the reservation to buy the game on multiple japanese websites, so I think it's logical that they show us some pics to call attention idk.

I agree that a new portrait looks different from the previous ones, but even if it's not real I liked it.

Here's the source of the images, open with IE because Firefox crash to me when I open with it. : http://d-stage.com/shop/detail.php?seq=11975

Well then, you've proved me wrong. *salutes* Well then, can't wait for the OP...Jessica and George look even more suspicious now.

[Kitsu]

GEORGE AND JESSICA ARE THE CULPRITS AND BEATO TROLLED US AGAIN" just from the cover, which seems like pretty huge spoilers. Unless Ryukishi is trolling us again, which I'm sure he is.

WHy you think that. Look closely...George and Jessica are standing in front of Kagu-tachi and for me standing in front is a sign of protection, it could mean so much xDD BTW KANON IS TALLER THAN JESS!! MY Image of them as shattered now

[TsundereCake]

It all looks so exciting oAo!!!!!

[Escargotage]

Anyway, as far as the cover goes, it seems to me that Beato has split personalities (troll and moe). But that's so cliche and I know Ryukishi wouldn't do that or at least find a way for it to work and make us all go, "Ooooh, clever."

[Tamad]

The cover alone gets me hyyyyyyyyyyyyyyped. I can't wait to see the young couples' involvement in all of this, assuming it isn't just one big troll.

[Arachanox]

...I haven't even played EP5 and yet EP6 is coming! I want to at least be knowledgeable about 5 before the flood of spoilers and speculations about 6 come in >_<

[Nifty]

I dare to say in red, The images are real, all were taked from the same site where we obtained the first ones of EP5, so I realy trust that. Also next sunday starts the reservation to buy the game on multiple japanese websites, so I think it's logical that they show us some pics to call attention idk.

I agree that a new portrait looks different from the previous ones, but even if it's not real I liked it.

Here's the source of the images, open with IE because Firefox crash to me when I open with it. : http://d-stage.com/shop/detail.php?seq=11975
Welp, there's my cue. :hyper-^v^:
I hope both couples get LOTS AND LOTS OF some more development than in EP2. Although I think it's more likely, from the cover, that Shannon or Kanon (or hell, both) will get framed while their respective love interest protects them or covers up for them.
Battler is the GM now. I don't think he'd go with it AT ALL if Trollkastel and Co. went straight for the cousins. Not that I wouldn't love to see Jessitrice get shot down once and for all.

[Volcanic]

The cover alone gets me hyyyyyyyyyyyyyyped. I can't wait to see the young couples' involvement in all of this, assuming it isn't just one big troll.

It's not, they just posted that link.

The cover makes it look like George and Jessica did it, like I said, but I doubt Ryukishi would just put that on the cover...:uhoh: So maybe our George-culprit and Jessitrice theories have been shattered! D8

[Arachanox]

If these are real, then shouldn't we expect Battler to have a new outfit within the VN? Unless he decides that capes don't suit him, shouldn't he get a change in clothes like Eva-Beatrice did?

[Kitsu]

So maybe our George-culprit and Jessitrice theories have been shattered! D8

xDD Your always so quick to assume, Volcanic. And ya ignoring Shannon/Kanon on the cover (so much better)
But maybe!1 This Epsidoe 2 just out the perspective of Jessica and George. twillight...migdnight sun anyone

[Nifty]

twillight...migdnight sun anyone
I knew there was something...teenage romancy about that name. :uhoh:
No sparkly vampires and it's a deal.

[Volcanic]

xDD Your always so quick to assume, Volcanic. And ya ignoring Shannon/Kanon on the cover (so much better)
But maybe!1 This Epsidoe 2 just out the perspective of Jessica and George. twillight...migdnight sun anyone

That's true, haha. But I can't see Kanon being the culprit, he's too suspicious. But then again, Shannon is pretty non-suspicious...8D and oh my god more Twilight noooooo

[Nifty]

That's true, haha. But I can't see Kanon being the culprit, he's too suspicious. But then again, Shannon is pretty non-suspicious...8D
Which is exactly why they should be taken off the list like Natsuhi was, and in such a cruel fashion that anyone who ever suspected them will feel terrible about themselves (myself included).

Make it happen, Ryukishi. You know you want to.

[Kitsu]

Although I think it's more likely, from the cover, that Shannon or Kanon (or hell, both) will get framed while their respective love interest protects them or covers up for them

First thought I had when seeing this lol.


That's true, haha. But I can't see Kanon being the culprit, he's too suspicious

Don't you know double tactic...making someone appear really suspicous, so everyone is loke "Too suspicious, not the culprit" and then they are the culprit?

But then again, Shannon is pretty non-suspicious..

Lolwut...Number 1 or two most suspicious person (besides Jessica) ..I mean mot are eith split between Shannontrice or Jesstrice.

I knew there was something...teenage romancy about that name.
No sparkly vampires and it's a deal.

Jesica:" I know what you are..."
Kanon: Say it!!
Jessica "...a...chair"
Kanon "Are you afraid!?"
Jessica: "eh no but stop please sparkling"

[Ssol]

But maybe!1 This Epsidoe 2 just out the perspective of Jessica and George.

I agree, episode 6 will probably have a huge focus on those two and their relationships.

Shannon and Kanon are behind them with their submissive faces. I'm just worried about why Jessica and George have their evil faces on the cover... :heh:

[ameskitty]

OMG YESSSSS! I totally called this being a kagu/pairing episode :D!!

*squees* And portrait Battler is amazing and and...well I can't totally read all the screenshots but the first one makes me dawww.

[Workworkwork]

If these are real, then shouldn't we expect Battler to have a new outfit within the VN? Unless he decides that capes don't suit him, shouldn't he get a change in clothes like Eva-Beatrice did?

He might change into it at the start of the game, much like Ushiromiya Eva's younger self became EVA.

That being said, if he IS going to carry out the murders, I hope he gets at least a few crazy-eye faces. Perhaps ones as awesome as Goldsmith's.

[Kitsu]

Is that Jessica's evil face...?? Woah, that's scary...I mean I always thought that's George's evil face was that one he wore during Gaap fight the one with one eye twitched

[Arachanox]

He might change into it at the start of the game, much like Ushiromiya Eva's younger self became EVA.

That being said, if he IS going to carry out the murders, I hope he gets at least a few crazy-eye faces. Perhaps ones as awesome as Goldsmith's.

If he is going to follow the epitaph, he'll likely do it as peacefully as possible, rather than the extravagantly cruel methods of Beatrice and Eva-Beatrice.

edit:

Is that Jessica's evil face...?? Woah, that's scary...I mean I always thought that's George's evil face was that one he wore during Gaap fight the one with one eye twitched

That is more of Jessica's determined face. She hasn't shown any evil tendencies afaik.

[Kitsu]

Thats why I was asking...and with scary I meant that I missed such a thing. And actually I think it is more of her "loving-to-fight" face

[Used Can]

So, what's the new title? "DID of the Golden Witch"?

[Ssol]

So, what's the new title? "DID of the Golden Witch"?

The title is 'Dawn of the Golden Witch'

This is already my favorite episode :heh:
Well you can't really tell too much about episode 6 just based on the cover and those 8 screenshots. :heh:

[Raneh]

If this is indeed a kagu episode maybe we'll finally learn Kanon's true name. Didn't Ryukishi say that Ep6/7 will contain the most revealing hints?

[Nifty]

If this is indeed a kagu episode maybe we'll finally learn Kanon's true name. Didn't Ryukishi say that Ep6/7 will contain the most revealing hints?
...Come to think of it, now's a better chance than ever.
WHY IS IT NOT LATE DECEMBER YET.

[Arachanox]

Pardon my ignorance, but what does 'kagu' mean? I haven't yet played EP5 so I don't know if it is a reference to it or not.

[Kitsu]

Furniture=kagu=Kanon=Shannon eh what..

[Escargotage]

Jesica:" I know what you are..."
Kanon: Say it!!
Jessica "...a...chair"
Kanon "Are you afraid!?"
Jessica: "eh no but stop please sparkling"

http://image.blingee.com/images17/content/output/000/000/000/621/529842060_409751.gif?4

I- I-- I'm sorry.

[Ssol]

Furniture=kagu=Kanon=Shannon eh what..

Shkanon is dead this episode. :heh:

[Used Can]

The title is 'Dawn of the Golden Witch'
So, we went from End to Dawn? Let us see if the name ends up having any particular meaning.

Shkanon is dead this episode. :heh:
Shkanon died in EP5.

[Arachanox]

Furniture=kagu=Kanon=Shannon eh what..

You know, that is so obvious in retrospect, especially since Kanon says it every other line in the anime >_<

Thanks.

[Kitsu]

Shkanon is dead this episode.

Wrong dude! Episode 6 will all be about George and Jessice fighting over Shkanon that's why they have their badass faces on.

@Escargotage
Hilarious xD

Stopping the small talk HERE!

To be honest..does someone here as a clue what happens in the screens?

[Arachanox]

If the world of 1998 is back, either Ange has been revived or we're oging to see some hidden clue that was left out of our following of Juuza and Ange during EP4.

edit: Or, new world entirely due to butterfly effect.

[Leinne]

Jessica and George just bore me, the only time they're funny is when they are badasses fighting, AND THAT'S WHAT I HOPE, Ryu, their love relationships are just stereotypical and boring, let's just hope something is better (and maybe Yandere Battler)

[Renall]

Maybe you can look at it this way instead: the murders are going to happen on the island, and not even Beatrice can stop it. However, in setting up the game, she can affect the order and manner of killings. In a situation like this, she has no control whatsoever over the number of deaths, so you can hardly call her evil. On the other hand, by ordering things in a way that helps Battler, she can possibly do something that breaks the cycle eventually.
Oh, I'm not saying Beatrice or Battler is evil (though Beatrice acted evil, where Battler probably won't). But they're forced to commit evil for a higher purpose. Battler at least will try to respect the dignity of his family as he has them killed.

Then again, who knows. Maybe he'll turn his game into an orgy of violence and suffering just to show the witches how pathetic they are. I doubt they'd care though, and it seems a little much for Battler to do.

Also, can anyone translate those sceenshots? Might provide some idea of what's coming, or if it's fake it might prove that.

[Used Can]

Maybe he'll turn his game into an orgy of violence and suffering just to show the witches how pathetic they are.
Mate, that'd be better than porn.
Sadly, Battler is a goody-goody.

[Arachanox]

Sadly, Battler is a goody-goody.

Piece-Battler doesn't seem very goody-goody when he's ranting on how he'll get his hands on the murderer and what he'll do with him. Every character has a dark side (except Nanjo :)).

edit: the day Nanjo gets an evil face in the VN is the day I delete it from my computer.

[Katsu Koneko]

Whoa~ -falls out of chair-

Yay more Shannon~! Can't wait to read it!

Though...first I need to read EP5...

[Kaiba]

Shannon and Kanon are behind them with their submissive faces. I'm just worried about why Jessica and George have their evil faces on the cover...
heh? Maybe I'm just completely biased, but that looks like Shannon's "I'm kind of pissed off" face - she has one that looks a little angrier where her mouth opens slightly, but the eye expression is generally the same.
Perhaps the George-Shannon theories AND the Jessica theory are right?:heh:

[Arachanox]

heh? Maybe I'm just completely biased, but that looks like Shannon's "I'm kind of pissed off" face - she has one that looks a little angrier where her mouth opens slightly, but the eye expression is generally the same.
Perhaps the George-Shannon theories AND the Jessica theory are right?:heh:

Now that you mention it...I have to agree. Looking at Shannon and even Kanon's face, it isn't their default content or even emotionless faces, but rather faces of slight irritation or perhaps determination. In any case, they don't appear to be innocent victims in this case, and George and Jessica are almost certainly up to something.

edit: Does anyone know if this is the first cover without Battler?

[Volcanic]

heh? Maybe I'm just completely biased, but that looks like Shannon's "I'm kind of pissed off" face - she has one that looks a little angrier where her mouth opens slightly, but the eye expression is generally the same.
Perhaps the George-Shannon theories AND the Jessica theory are right?
Now that you mention it...I have to agree. Looking at Shannon and even Kanon's face, it isn't their default content or even emotionless faces, but rather faces of slight irritation or perhaps determination. In any case, they don't appear to be innocent victims in this case, and George and Jessica are almost certainly up to something.

Exactly what I'm thinking. Maybe George and Jessica plan something, not necessarily the murders, and have Kanon and Shannon go along with them, but the latter two know something's going to go wrong or whatever. I don't know :heh: //made it up off top of her head

edit: Does anyone know if this is the first cover without Battler?

He wasn't on the EP2 cover.

[Kitsu]

Episodes 2 cover didn't had Battler right?

[Arachanox]

No, he wasn't there.

http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss70/Kittychama/Covers%20Umineko%20No%20Naku%20Koro%20Ni/umi_ep2.jpg

[rogerpepitone]

Probably coincidential but I was looking at http://hidebu.wikiwiki.jp/ translated with Google Translate, and saw a number of mentions of mackerel.

Tomitake sink, sink Times, is that Jiro Tomitake sink mackerel (camera survival) is to shed the extra attack when the Oyashiro.
富竹流し、時報流し、鯖流しというのは富竹ジロウ(サバイバルカメラ)のオヤシロ時エキストラアタックで流 すことです

逆に言えば、敵が鎌・霊の組み合わせで自チームがバット・鯖ならば、自分達の方から攻めて行かなければなら ないことになる。 Conversely, if your team is at bat mackerel combination of sickle spiritual enemy, will have to go to attack from their own people.

斧・腕・鯖・空手のようなタフな近距離型を使う人、これらのキャラと組む人は、以上の事を意識 しよう。 Karate people use mackerel-type short-range arms ax as tough, people partner with these characters, or to sense things.

Is it using the same kanji for "mackerel" that Kumasawa uses?

[Ssol]

Also, can anyone translate those sceenshots? Might provide some idea of what's coming, or if it's fake it might prove that.

I'm not sure if my translation is correct but here my try:
親族の方々を泊めるなら、お屋敷の客室で充分だろうに。
そうね。お掃除大変だもんね。でも、ゲストハウスの掃除は、好き。
Kanon: If the family members are to be taken in, the guest room in the residence will probably be enough.
Shannon: That's right. It's difficult cleaning. However, I like cleaning of the guesthouse.


遠いねぇですな。お嬢だって、１２年前の気の毒な一件がなけりゃ、今頃は笑顔が似合うキュートな女の子だっ たかもしれねぇ。
Juuza: That sure is distant. You know young lady, if it weren't for that tragic event 12 years ago, you might have become the cute girl who fits that smile right now.


部屋に戻れ。ここはお前のいる場所でない。
Battler: Return to your room. This is no place for you.


...
誰よ、あんた。
Bernkastel: ...
Lambdadelta: Who are you?


扉の隙間から、温かな灯りが漏れる。
やはり、廊下には温かな灯りが満ちていた。
聞こえるわけじゃないけど、何だか遠くで、温かで楽しそうな気配がする。
Through the small opening of the door, a gentle light shone through.
As expected, the corridor was filled with that gentle glow.
There was nothing to be heard, but from a little away there came a gentle, enjoyable presence.


...ねぇ、天草。...私って、...いつからここにいるの...？
はぁ？
Ange: ...hey Amakusa. ...I...since when have I been here?
Juuza: huh?


健やかな時も病める時も。そうね、病める時に支えてこそ妻だわ。そうよね、ヱリカ？
Bernkastel: In sickness and in health. That's right, it's a wife who supports when sick. That's it, right Erika?


えぇ、楽しみにしてるわー。タイトルは？
”Dawn".黄金の魔女の夜明け。
Lambdadelta: Right, I'm looking foward to it. And the title?
Battler: "Dawn". Dawn of the golden witch.
Please correct the mistakes I made and I'll edit the post. :heh:

[Geekodot]

So it doesn't look like Battler is getting any new sprites? Bah... was looking forward to seeing him actually looking like a "witch"... xD

[ameskitty]

What if they're helping Battler revive Beatrice? I mean Beatrice looks all surprised and they're standing around her defensively, and they didn't get very good treatment in the last game, so who knows? Maybe Battler asked them to help. (but geez, all of them in the metaworld? That'd get pretty interesting :eyespin:)

Hmm, wtf is Juuza doing there? It sounds kind of like some sort of alternate 1998 (possibly with at least Battler surviving?). But...why would he know Ange in that context? Or maybe it's an alternate metaworld? Hrmm...puzzling to say the least

EDIT: Okay, with the corrected TL, the Battler surviving thing no longer makes sense. So yeah, looks like we randomly get another 1998.


Yay, looks like Battler's going to kick Erika out of the gameboard :D. Also looks like hints of yet another new character...XD

Also curious as to the sickness and health part and the warm light thing...

Speculations dump:
This will be the longest episode yet
Beato is revived (duh)
Erika is killed (PLEASE)
Battler is missing part of the answer
The world of EP5 ends with everybody but Battler dying
The gold is discovered yet again
Kanon's emo tragic past is revealed, along with his real name
Major battle royale with Jessica/Kanon/George/Shannon
- Said royale and the finding of the safe place Eva found in EP3 ends to them and Battler surviving (I wish, but that safe place needs some explaining XD)
One or all four of them ends up using red text.
HALF-FURNITURE DEMON SPAWN IS THE CULPRIT sorry, had to do it :heh:

[Volcanic]

...
誰よ、あんた。
Bernkastel: ...
Lambdadelta: Who are you?

I'm especially curious about this one o_o New Meta-World character, maybe? Or is Battler having an identity crisis now? I mean, he doesn't know who's kid he is, and from the screenshots his personality took a turn.

[Evy]

...ねぇ、天草。...私って、...いつからここにいるの...？
はぁ？
Ange: ...right, Agar agar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agar). ...'Me' you said... When was I here?
Juuza: huh?

Pretty sure the first part's meant to be "...Hey, Amakusa."

[Ssol]

Pretty sure the first part's meant to be "...Hey, Amakusa."

You're right. I couldn't figure that Kanji out. Corrected. :)

[Workworkwork]

...ねぇ、天草。...私って、...いつからここにいるの...？
はぁ？
Ange: ...hey Amakusa...'Me' you said... When was I here?
Juuza: huh?


Is that hinting at Juuza NOT being too late to save Ange, and she just lost her memory, technically "Killing" Ushiromiya Ange?

[chounokoe]

遠いねぇですな。お嬢だって、１２年前の気の毒な一件がなけりゃ、今頃は笑顔が似合うキュートな女の子だっ たかもしれねぇ。
Juuza: That's pretty distant. I said you are a young lady and if you aren't the poor one from 12 years ago then this time you were probably the cute girl who that smile suits.

I think that should be along the lines of:
Juuza: That sure is distant. You know young lady, if it weren't for that tragic event 12 years ago, you might have become the cute girl who fits that smile right now.


部屋に戻れ。ここはお前のいる場所でない。
Battler: Return to the room. This is not a place where you exist.

Battler: Return to your room. This is no place for you.
(It doesn't really call for an 'exist'...he could just be talking to Maria or Erika at this point.)


扉の隙間から、温かな灯りが漏れる。
やはり、廊下には温かな灯りが満ちていた。
聞こえるわけじゃないけど、何だか遠くで、温かで楽しそうな気配がする。
A warm light escapes from the space in the door.
As expected, the warm light had been filled from below.
I don't hear it but somehow in the distance the warm and seemingly happy sign will do.


I would understand it as:
Through the small opening of the door, a gentle light shone through.
As expected, the corridor was filled with that gentle glow.
There was nothing to be heard, but from a little away there came a gentle, enjoyable presence.

...ねぇ、天草。...私って、...いつからここにいるの...？
はぁ？
Ange: ...hey Amakasa...'Me' you said... When was I here?
Juuza: huh?

Ange: ...eh, Amakusa. I...since when have I been here?
Juuza: Eh?


I don't mean to be nitpicky, but some things just were a bit too far off for my taste

[Workworkwork]

I'm not holding back the possibility that Bern/Lambda/Erika are all just split-offs of Beato, and in a tweest, all 3 merge to re-form her after Battler thinks he's solved everything, only to have her go "YOU HELPED ME WIN! *Cackle**Cackle*" or something.:eyespin:

[Ssol]

I don't mean to be nitpicky, but some things just were a bit too far off for my taste
Thank you, fixed all those. :)

[Endless_Witch_Nipah]

So it doesn't look like Battler is getting any new sprites? Bah... was looking forward to seeing him actually looking like a "witch"... xD


You mean a ... TROLL FACE? XD
Seriously i want to see this xD

[Used Can]

I'd have liked Battler getting new sprites with the cape, and perhaps that black outfit.

[momobunny]

It doesn't really make sense to me that his portrait is painted with a black cape but he doesn't get one on his sprite. It can't take that long just to add a cape to the back of the sprite... I wonder why Ryukishi didn't just add it in. ^^;

[Marion]

It doesn't really make sense to me that his portrait is painted with a black cape but he doesn't get one on his sprite. It can't take that long just to add a cape to the back of the sprite... I wonder why Ryukishi didn't just add it in. ^^;
Ryukishi is lazy 8|

Besides doing all of this in a span of four months I think we can live without a sprite edit.

[MeoTwister5]

Given the way Ep5 ended, it'd blow my balls if Battler got a new sprite.:eyespin:

[ijriims]

I supposed Shannon and Kanon would be framed as the final culprits in EP6 while George and Jessica would be defending them, and then Ryukishi07 (Battler) would just smash the whole "Kanon-Jessica=Beatrice" and "George-Shannon=Beatrice" theories. Of course they were not innocent, but they were merely the pawns moved by the Real Beatrice.

About the screenshots from EP6, A new 1998 after Ep5?

I wondered who would have surprised both Bern and Lambda. I guessed it was hair-down Beato but now completely different from who Bern and Lambda had know(thus the trolling face Beato in the boxcover), and they questioned who was taking the image of Beato.

(Or it was the Creator?)

[Kaisos Erranon]

So far, "Kyrie=Beatrice=Sumadera's spy" hypothesis seemed to be surviving all EP5 and EP6.

Aren't we full of ourselves today?

Your pet theory hasn't been addressed yet, yes, and probably isn't ever going to be. It's entirely too far-fetched and is based off of no information, hinted or otherwise. (At least Shannontrice has in-game support and Jessitrice actually makes a lick of sense).

I'm sorry to be so blunt, but your comment just strikes me as REALLY arrogant... I apologize if I've caused too much offense.

[MeoTwister5]

Watching episode 22, I sort of remembered that Ep4 was the first real hint at suggesting that the first 6 murders were never really planned at all. Ep4's first murders were the first concrete revelation that it was more of a crime of opportunity than of direct intent.

For all intents and purposes, some months back I've already decided to consider most of the initial murders to be purely by chance, that is, being at the wrong place at the wrong time. Maybe 1 or 2 of those were intended, but not all of them. It's as if the others deaths were collateral damage so to speak, not for the intent of killing a specific person, but to simply kill someone whoever it is.

Ep5 further suggests that it doesn't HAVE to be 6 people, further implying that the previous deaths were just circumstance and not to fulfill a 6 death quota.

In a way it does make some sort of connection to the epitaph patterns, a theory that has been all but discarded for most of us, but it does raise some concerns regarding a single mastermind behind the first murders. If this person does not intend to kill specific people or a specific number of people, then it might mean that the sheer number of deaths is irrelevant to this person's goal.

[ijriims]

Aren't we full of ourselves today?

Your pet theory hasn't been addressed yet, yes, and probably isn't ever going to be. It's entirely too far-fetched and is based off of no information, hinted or otherwise. (At least Shannontrice has in-game support and Jessitrice actually makes a lick of sense).


Too arrogant, indeed. So I removed it.

Anyway, what does pet theory mean?:heh: You meant Maria as pet? or what? I don't understand.

(Though I am quite confident Shannontrice and Jessitrice would be smashed in EP6, judging from the gamecover. My claim that Kyrie was a spy from Sumadera family was indeed too speculative, without much evidence at all, it was referring to the motive part only. My baseline is Kyrie being Beatrice and final culprit. )

@MeoTwister5: In EP1, Battler overhearded that Kanon said Shannon should not be the one chosen in the first twilight and then Genji commented that it was all by chance. I supposed it was the earliest hint that the victims in the first twilight were not specific from the beginning.

[Kaisos Erranon]

Anyway, what does pet theory mean?:heh:

A theory that its creator is overly fond of.

(Though I am quite confident Shannontrice and Jessitrice would be smashed in EP6, judging from the gamecover)

I'm not so sure of that. Don't be so sure of things like this.

Shannontrice would be piece-Beatrice, not (exactly) meta-Beatrice, don't forget.

Furthermore... if Shannon and Kanon are disproved as culprits here, well... Ep1 is almost unsolvable.

[MeoTwister5]

Well my point is that this is the first real time the "culprit" reveals (at least through magical scenes) that s/he doesn't care who gets hit rather than some systematic model "randomization". Just fire and hit something.

Also should Ep6 actually disprove Shannon and Kanon as culprits, I still have one theory for Ep1, but it's hanging on by a thread at this point.

[Kaisos Erranon]

Well my point is that this is the first real time the "culprit" reveals (at least through magical scenes) that s/he doesn't care who gets hit rather than some systematic model "randomization". Just fire and hit something.

The issue I'm kinda having with this is that... what is the culprit's goal, if they're not following the epitaph and they're not intending to kill specific people?

If they simply want people, no matter who, to die?

This is a classical mystery. There has to be a realistic motive.

Also should Ep6 actually disprove Shannon and Kanon as culprits, I still have one theory for Ep1, but it's hanging on by a thread at this point.

Could you please elaborate? I'd like to hear it.

[Ssol]

Furthermore... if Shannon and Kanon are disproved as culprits here, well... Ep1 is almost unsolvable.

I was thinking about Chronotrig's theory that the EP5 magic battle in Kinzo's study in the dirty trick Ryukishi played on us. The implications of this being true is that the detective's perspective is not trustworthy. Every scene that is not backed by red truth can be false.

I really hope that's not true because that would make things ten times more difficult than they already are. However, at the same time, it opens the door for more theories. In fact, an infinite number of theories. :heh:

Assuming that theory is true why would Beatrice play this kind of a trick on Battler if she's trying to show him the truth?

Personally, I don't agree that the EP5 battle is the trick. I think that battle happened in the detective's presence because the perspective of the people who's thoughts we follow (Mostly Battler and Natsuhi in episode 5) became untrustworthy. I don't know if what I typed made any sense but yeah... :heh:

[ijriims]

A theory that its creator is overly fond of.



I'm not so sure of that. Don't be so sure of things like this.

Shannontrice would be piece-Beatrice, not (exactly) meta-Beatrice, don't forget.

Furthermore... if Shannon and Kanon are disproved as culprits here, well... Ep1 is almost unsolvable.

"I'm not so sure of that. Don't be so sure of things like this." Of course it was my personal judgment, you don't need to agree to this.

Who don't love their own theories or hypotheses, until proven wrong (and sometimes, even after proven wrong)?

By Shannontrice and Jessitrice I meant theories basing on Shannon and Jessica being real Beatrice respectively.

Meta-Beatrice were much more than real Beatrice but embracing all Beatrices (cliff-falling one, Kinzo's secret lover, Maria's master, Murderer). You knew even when I said Kyrie=Beatrice I was talking about Kyrie being the real Beatrice, not meta-Beatrice.

-----------------------------

I have some new thoughts on EP1:

The scene after 23:59:59 Oct 5 was already fantasy scene. Actually Battler and other people were already killed when we were shown the scene where Maria ran to Beatrice. It was supported in the anime that no Beatrice came out in the end of Ep1.

Natsuhi was probably killed by Konan. But I don't think he staked Genji and the other twos in the parlor. But someone must have done it....

Unsolved yet. If the red texts concerning the body-double tricks only applied to 6th-8th twilights, then any people from the first twilights could be the murderer (of course excluding Gohda and Krauss).
------------------------------

@MeoTwister5:

If you think that Ronove represented Genji while Virgilia represented Kumasawa (Who knows who represent Gaap in this case? Shannon? Jessica? Kyrie? Rosa? The personality did not need to be matched, just see Kumasawa and Virglia). Then it implied that Genji was not killed in the first twilight at all. In fact, there could be no first twilight at all.

[Kaisos Erranon]

I was thinking about Chronotrig's theory that the EP5 magic battle in Kinzo's study in the dirty trick Ryukishi played on us. The implications of this being true is that the detective's perspective is not trustworthy. Every scene that is not backed by red truth can be false.

Oh god... Please, no.

I really hope that's not true because that would make things ten times more difficult than they already are. However, at the same time, it opens the door for more theories. In fact an infinite number of theories. :heh:

Which reduces the game to a text document. Which is stupid.

Most entertaining game. Ever.

Assuming that theory is true why would Beatrice play this kind of a trick on Battler if she's trying to show him the truth.

Actually, I've been saying this before, but...

How do we know for certain that Beatrice is trying to show Battler the truth at all?

Personally, I don't agree that the EP5 battle is the trick. I think that battle happened in the detective's presence because the perspective of the people who's thoughts we follow (Mostly Battler and Natsuhi in episode 5) became untrustworthy. I don't know if what I typed made any sense but yeah... :heh:

We've had unreliable omniscient narration since Ep3, so why not?


...You know, honestly, as I have felt many times, I'm feeling the desire to simply give up on Umineko entirely, because I get the strong impression that your theory is actually true, given Ep2's ending in particular.

And if it's true, which I am becoming more certain by the moment that it is, this isn't worth the effort anymore.

What on earth does Ryukishi think he's doing? If the detective's perspective is as unreliable as anything else, everything that ever happens might as well be completely false, making the entire game a complete waste of time.

[MeoTwister5]

Well by the end Ep54 and reinforced by Ep5 that everyone should have known that practically no POV and no narration is perfectly omniscient and perfectly reliable. Not Battler's nor Beato's.

As for my theory, it's more of the mastermind than the specific culprit. Suffice to say my initial assumptions on either of the younger servants being the culprits were similar to a theory posted in the boards a while back but I can't dig for it.

Should the two not be the specific instigators, I still believe they can be conspirators and possibly been responsible for at least 1 murder per person. My mastermind for this?

George.

[Ssol]

How do we know for certain that Beatrice is trying to show Battler the truth at all?
Virgilia to Battler: Beato hoped for you to solve this game, and she created it… created the riddle of this story, so that it was solvable.

...You know, honestly, as I have felt many times, I'm feeling the desire to simply give up on Umineko entirely, because I get the strong impression that your theory is actually true, given Ep2's ending in particular.

And if it's true, which I am becoming more certain by the moment that it is, this isn't worth the effort anymore.

What on earth does Ryukishi think he's doing? If the detective's perspective is as unreliable as anything else, everything that ever happens might as well be completely false, making the entire game a complete waste of time.
I totally agree if this is the trick, I'm done....

Actually, I'll still probably play to the end but I'll be pissed off. :heh:
Well by the end Ep54 and reinforced by Ep5 that everyone should have known that practically no POV and no narration is perfectly omniscient and perfectly reliable. Not Battler's nor Beato's.

As for my theory, it's more of the mastermind than the specific culprit. Suffice to say my initial assumptions on either of the younger servants being the culprits were similar to a theory posted in the boards a while back but I can't dig for it.

Should the two not be the specific instigators, I still believe they can be conspirators and possibly been responsible for at least 1 murder per person. My mastermind for this?

George.
There is still a motive problem in my opinion. Obviously someone sent the messages in the bottles before Oct. 4 so if this was all planned well in advance, why would he do it?

[Kaisos Erranon]

Well by the end Ep54 and reinforced by Ep5 that everyone should have known that practically no POV and no narration is perfectly omniscient and perfectly reliable. Not Battler's nor Beato's.

No. If even the detective's perspective cannot be trusted, then it follows that everything but the red must automatically be considered as fake.

Making the game no longer a game, period. There's no longer a story, just a series of colored lines and notes detailing the context in which they are used.

I have suddenly become very angry at Ryukishi and am more certain than ever that he's a complete and utter hack of a writer.


George.

I do love how no one suspected the guy before his crazyfaces in Ep4... and I agree with you that he's probably involved.

Virgilia to Battler: Beato hoped for you to solve this game, and she created it… created the riddle of this story, so that it was solvable.

Oh, okay. So no troll.

Maybe.

I totally agree if this is the trick, I'm done....

Actually, I'll still probably play to the end but I'll be pissed off. :heh:

Yeah, despite my grumbling, I really can't give it up at this point, and I'll be equally pissed off.

We do, however, have several saving graces. Before Ep5's release, Ryukishi was talking about a "trap"... and now he's talking about a "venomous trick" that was originally in Ep3.

This trap and this trick are the same thing.

And if it's related to what was originally Ep3... it can't be the revelation that the detective's perspective is unreliable, because that would change everything, and render future episodes almost useless.

And I agree with what you said earlier... Erika's perspective wasn't used in that scene, correct? As long as the scene is not from the detective's first-person perspective, it can be regarded as fake.

That's better.

[MeoTwister5]

The issue isn't whether or not it's a black and white decision of trust, rather knowing of how to trust. Just because it's red doesn't mean you can trust it outright without question, as many reds have already been questioned on their authenticity. Likewise, just ebcause it's not red doesn't mean not true.

If there's one thing I got out of Ep5, it's the warning that all of us have become too complacent as to surrender our trust in the red and, as a result, "stopped thinking." Ep5 more than any other episode put red in a more negative light, forcing me to rethink the approach to the red.

From there I got reminded that as with any mystery, everything has always been on the shoulders of the reader to use his mind and figure things out by his own detective's eye. It just so happens that the red text became something of a guard rail, and Ep5 has Ryukishi reminding his readers not follow the red like it's some sort of bible. The red is there to give some semblance of direction, but it's still up to the reader to find his own way through.

And this entails figuring things out for yourself, rather than having the red validate everything. Remember again that Beato herself says the red is a double edged sword and this likewise applies to the readers. Over-reliance on the red is the same as ignoring it completely. The red text is advice, not a master. At the end, it's what you choose and think for both normal and red text that matters.

Frankly speaking, I believe that it's those people who find this balance who will be able to discover the truth of Rokkenjima WAAAAAAAY before it gets spoonfed to everyone else.

This is precisely what I've been intending to do since I finished Ep5, as reflected by me not posting much on my own thoughts and ideas, which is why when I post something I rarely ever elucidate it in red or blue as to reflect this belief. Evidence before red, in my opinion.

[Dlanor .A. Nox]

Was there any red that said anything about the chain lock from Ep 1 where Eva and Hideyoshi were murdered? Cause I think that the Chain itself is compromised. Magnets are an easy way of giving the illusion of a solid lock even a good tug can't dislodge a decently powered magnet.

Oh yeah about the murder weapon I think I have a good idea that's basic and easy to explain. A pneumatic type of launcher akin to a potato launcher or something to that effect it's quiet and fits the way Kanon was killed a quiet stake to the chest. Noise makers were probably used to get Kanon to face the certain direction where the killer waited.

Feel free to shoot it down lol I had these ideas floating around for awhile in my head.

[ijriims]

On theories basing on George being mastermind:

Motives

1.The Gold?

2.To get rid of his parents because they opposed to his and Shannon's marriage?

3.To get rid of his parents because they were manipulative bastards

These are the three motives I could have thought of. But honestly, a human who was willing to kill his parents and the whole family for money and to get freed, while being able to fake the tears so perfectly, was just a monster. I doubt Ryukishi07 would invoke such a downturn (though it was certainly a powerful twist.). If it was the 1st motive, then Shannon should not have found the gold as she would offer the gold instantly and George had no reason to kill anyone in this case.

And the 3rd motive actually did not make sense. IF George merely want to kill his parents, certainly there was a lot of chance then to kill them when the island had become a closed room. And why would he also have to kill the other family members was beyond me to think about....

For killing the family because of his love affairs? This did not make sense since the killing was planned before the Oct4 while he was shown to propose on Oct4. It meant he assumed Shannon was willing to marry him AND his parents would oppose to the marriage so he planned the killing beforehand.

Of course, if I could think out some more motives, then the problem is solved. (However, to say that George did the killing because Shannon wanted him to do would make Shannon being the mastermind rather than George)

Enough on motives, let's talk about methods.

Methods:

Obviously, if George was indeed the mastermind, then he did need to have accomplice as he had alibi most of the time. Shannon probably was his accomplice, then Kanon could also be recruited as he was willing to help his sister. Nanjo was probably also accomplice concerning the situation in EP1. Maria was unwitting accomplice as Shannon was Beatrice here.

Then let's see how the murders were executed:

In EP1, Shannon and Kanon killed the five and then faked her death by using her own body. Definitely how Shannon could put up such amazing make-up was puzzling but let's assume Hideyoshi did not look at Shannon's face closely enough. George did put up an Oscar-winning acting here...

Then, Shannon killed George's both parents and hid under the bed (if Genji was not accomplice). They have moved the body of Kinzo beforehand and then Kanon faked his death in the boiling room as well. (You know, Nanjo was the doctor)

Then, when the group started locking themselves in Kinzo's study. Either Maria or Nanjo put the letter on the table and got kicked out. Then either Shannon or Kanon killed the three in the parlor while lurking Natsuhi out and killed her as well.

What's next? George showed his true face and killed the remaining people? Finally only George and Shannon was alive with their happy (and bloody) ending?

This concluded the EP1.

EP2:

George ordered Shannon to impose as Beatrice and scare Rosa to the bone. And then he ordered her to kill the six while excluding Rosa, so to frame her. (Hey, there were three gold bars on the table. So someone must have solved the epitaph. Who was that person? Shannon? In this case, money could not be George's goal as he could take the gold legitimately if Shannon had solved the epitaph without risking his and Shannon's life to murder people)

Then what? Shannon secretly killed Kanon and Jessica (I presumed Kanon wanted to protect Jessica here so was killed because of it), Genji was turning a blind eye? Then for some mysterious reason Rosa said Genji and Shannon had alibi even though she knew Kinzo was not in his study at all.

In the case of servant's room. Shannon killed Kumasawa and told Nanjo to pretend death? Then Nanjo opened the door and carried Kumasawa's body away? She latter murdered also Nanjo and placed all the bodies in the inner garden.

Then here comes the mysterious case of Natsuhi's room. Presumably, George, Shannon and Gohda entered Natsuhi's room and George locked it up. Shannon attempted to murder Gohda but was struck back in the forehead? Then George attacked but was also wounded in the abdomen? Fortunately, he killed Gohda successfuly but unfortunate enough to die shortly afterwards.

Then it must be Genji putting those blood hands paint on the Natsuhi's room. It could not make sense if Genji was not an accomplice. But then why George did not call Genji into the room as well when they tried to finish off Gohda was a mystery to me.

And why put up the paint? To make it more scarer?

In the end, somehow a disaster (I preferred landslide here) broke out and killed everyone remained? (In this case, George and Shannon could not have survived in the end of EP1 as well, assuming this natural disaster occurred everytime at 00:00-00:01 Oct6)

EP2 Ends.

----------------------------------To be continued-----------------------------------------------

[Kaisos Erranon]

*snip*

...Yeah, no... that's not what I'm getting at here.


If the detective's perspective is as unreliable as everything else is, then we no longer have any indication of whether or not a scene is fake to begin with, magic or no.

Therefore, because we are naturally suspicious of fake scenes in Umineko, we instantly suspect every single scene, ever, of being a complete and utter lie. As a result, we begin to rely entirely on the red.

Ep5 brought into question the validity of red text. Now we can't trust that either.

Now, to continue my text document analogy from earlier, I am now not even reading lines of colored text with little descriptions, I am reading a goddamn blank piece of paper.

Which I then tear in two, crumple in half, and thrown in the trash.


You see why I am a little upset at this idea? :heh: It's not as through I would automatically regard everything not in red as false, it's simply that I have no idea where to start if there is no indication of anything being true to begin with.

Furthermore, I still don't believe we truly have enough information to solve the mystery even now. Or, rather, that even if we do have enough information, it's impossible to find the Answer due to some block in our collective thinking.

We need to start thinking outside Schrodinger's catbox, methinks.


Was there any red that said anything about the chain lock from Ep 1 where Eva and Hideyoshi were murdered? Cause I think that the Chain itself is compromised. Magnets are an easy way of giving the illusion of a solid lock even a good tug can't dislodge a decently powered magnet.

Unless Shannon was hiding in the room somewhere, yeah, it's just about the only way.

[ijriims]

Maybe the trick is:

ONLY BEATRICE's, RONOVE's, THE STAKES', GAAP's, VERGILIA's, ANGE's, MARIA's (if she would use) red texts could be trusted and interpreted at face value. (Wait, wasn't the red text "no more than 19 people were on the island" a trick to Battler already? If not for Kyrie...)

Lambda's and Bern's? You needed to put some salt into theirs.

[Kaisos Erranon]

Lambda's and Bern's? You needed to put some salt into theirs.

Red truth is red truth... I know Dlanor states that a few times.

[ijriims]

Red truth is red truth... I know Dlanor states that a few times.

Putting some salts mean you can't trust their red truth at face value. Not that theirs were blatantly wrong.

But their truth and interpretation weres MISLEADING.

[Kaisos Erranon]

Putting some salts mean you can't trust their red truth at face value. Not that theirs were blatantly wrong.

But their truth and interpretation weres MISLEADING.

But red truth by nature is up for interpretation. It's how we twist them into crack theories in the first place.

[ijriims]

I meant we should not twist Beatrice and her league's red truth to fit our theories as they intended to tell the "Answer".

But if you don't twist Lambda's or Bern's, then you could not reach the "Answer" as theirs were misleading by nature.

So Shakanon was impossible from this perspective.

[Geekodot]

My thought about most fake scenes is that they cannot exist unless the people involved in the scene either die or tells a lie about it. All scenes that the people involved keeps to themselves (like Natsuhi being showed a gold bar in ep 1) is true or mostly true. This is because Natsuhi (the person involved) never told anyone else about this event. If they had, you can suspect that it was a lie, but since they didn't, there is NO reason for the scene to be fake (though it can still be misinterpreted by the person in question, thus only mostly true).

In summary: All scenes that are not being conveyed to other characters later are true/mostly true.
All scenes which are described by other characters (like fake Kanon and the phone calls in ep4) have a high possibility of being fake.

However, I'm making an exception for this rule in ep5 because that episode is so filled with lies that it is almost a blank sheet of paper. There are too many magic scenes on the game board that no one seems to notice...

Also, I think this is what Ronove meant when he talked about love. He meant that Beato always created scenes that followed these fake scene rules to give the opponent a footing to use, while Lambda and Bern just said screw the rules and created whatever scene they wanted... In ep 5, perspectives are proven unreliable, but in the earlier eps, there is no reason not to trust the perspectives of the different characters.

[ijriims]

Does anyone have any ideas on these questions?

1. How did Eva get Kinzo's ring in EP3?

2. How could Maria's diary survive?

3. Who killed Krauss and Natsuhi in EP3 and who staked them?

4. Why Rosa could survive the chapel scene and why her letter was never read out?

5. Natsuhi's death in EP1. I want to know how the red texts was interpreted and get around concerning this case.

6. Why wrote the 07151129 on the door? Regardless of who wrote it, I am more interested in why.

7. Why wrote the letters-in-the-bottle? What did Beatrice hope for?

8. Why killed every servants in the 1st twilight in EP3? (As most theories (if not all) required some servant(s) to be accomplice(s))

9. Were the tests shown in EP4 real? Were George and Jessica actually asked the question? Why acted in this way if it was fake?

10. Did Real-Beatrice (I mean Maria's master) solve the epigraph and find the gold?

11. What was the meaning behind the embossing on the chapel? Why Kumasawa jotted them down?

12. Did Amakusa kill Ange in 1998? Really under the order of Okonogi?

13. Why the blood paint on Natsuhi's room?

EDIT:14. Why Gohda and Kumasawa were hanged in the garden shed? If they were not dead when Battler peeked them from the side window, what were they doing until they were confirmed dead by Battler?

EDIT:15. Why opened the stomach and stuffed with candies?

I wanted to know how you guys view these questions. It is not that I have no personal ideas for these questions. I want to see if we can pool some ideas together and inspire some new ones.

[TheBlackCat]

Hey this is just an idea I've been playing around with in my head for a while, and I dunno if it's been suggested by anyone(or if it's blown out of the water by EP5, which I haven't read yet), but has anyone considered that Suit Beato might just be Rosa dressing up for Maria? She shows up in EP 2, the episode where Rosa's the most likely culprit and kind of serves to further Maria's ideas about... witches, and stuff. And Maria supposedly sees Beatrice every year. I mean, it would kind of be Rosa's way of dealing with her guilt.

[chronotrig]

I was thinking about Chronotrig's theory that the EP5 magic battle in Kinzo's study in the dirty trick Ryukishi played on us. The implications of this being true is that the detective's perspective is not trustworthy. Every scene that is not backed by red truth can be false.


I think you've missed my point. If the detective's perspective is always unreliable, this wouldn't be an "EP5 trick" but a trick about the entire game. In fact, if this scene does turn out to be the trick, you may have just fallen for the "misunderstanding" Ryuukishi mentioned.

In other words, the "trick" here is "how does Lambda make it appear that the detective saw the meta world" when it's impossible for the detective to see it. It should be possible to solve the actual mystery without knowing this, and Ryuukishi could easily have left that part of the battle out. Plus, Lambda, Battler, Erika and Bern never discuss it.

That's the point I was trying to make.

[Raneh]

Does anyone have any ideas on these questions?

I wanted to know how you guys view these questions. It is not that I have no personal ideas for these questions. I want to see if we can pool some ideas together and inspire some new ones.

My personal thoughts on these questions, I didn't spend too much time thinking about them through but this is how I picture them in my head:


1. How did Eva get Kinzo's ring in EP3?
1. Quickly I could come up with two possibilities. The first one is that Eva was not in the room the whole time when she was supposed to be sick, she might have gone to take the ring from Kinzo's finger (AFAIK it was never taken from the corpse and she wanted it badly). 2nd having read Ep5 you could think that either Krauss or Natsuhi had the ring therefore after killing them she would have it. There are many other possibilities as well but I'll just mention those two that seem most fitting to me.

2. How could Maria's diary survive?
2. Ep3 Maria probably left her bag at the guesthouse. If the bunnies Maria owns were in her bag and the culprit got them (creating Siestas as furniture), I think it's plausible to say that the culprit had Maria's note with her as well. Eva should've been the only one to survive though, so I'm not sure how she got it if she was not the culprit. Anyway Eva did save some books from the guesthouse so why not Maria's notes as well because they looked interesting.
That reminds me, have we ever seen Maria's book which has all the magic circles AFTER they have started appearing around the mansion?

3. Who killed Krauss and Natsuhi in EP3 and who staked them?
3. There are quite a few possibilities there, can't say for sure. Maybe they left the questhouse and were killed by the one person who faked his/her death. (Kyrie/Hideyoshi in my opinion).

4. Why Rosa could survive the chapel scene and why her letter was never read out?
4. There is definitely something suspicious about Rosa in Ep2 because she's lying to Battler and the others about Shannon and Genji. I believe it was all a set up by the culprit to frame Rosa.

5. Natsuhi's death in EP1. I meant how you guys interpret the red texts concerning this case.
5. Either Kanon or Shannon survived earlier and simply used another gun to shoot Natsuhi later on.

6. Why wrote the 07151129 on the door? Regardless of who wrote it, I am more interested in why.
6. Never ever tried to solve that, too irritating.

7. Why wrote the letters-in-the-bottle? What did Beatrice hope for?
7. Again, I haven't really given it much thought.

8. Why killed every servants in the 1st twilight in EP3?
8. Well, there were magic circles around so maybe to create an illusion that a witch is around. Considering who did it: The one who brought Kinzo into the boiler room must have been someone who knew about his state. Apart from Krauss, Natsuhi and the servant only Nanjo (and possibly Jessica) should've known about it. If you think about it, you also need a key to the chapel in which Kanon was so you would have to know where and which key it was, I doubt Nanjo could know something like this. The most suspicious person in this case is in my opinion Jessica. (+ Maria's notes were in her reach so she they would help her, right? :()

9. Were the tests shown in EP4 real? Were George and Jessica actually asked the question? Why acted in this way if it was fake?
9. I think they're real. At least I couldn't think of anything if they were fake.

10. Did Real-Beatrice (I mean Maria's master) solve the epigraph and find the gold?
10. The gold is hers from the beginning, whoever that Beatrice is. I do believe it's the same person who always meets Maria in the beginning.

11. What was the meaning behind the embossing on the chapel? Why Kumasawa jotted them down?
11. To create the illusion of magic.

12. Did Amakusa kill Ange in 1998? Really under the order of Okonogi?
12. The end credits stated that she died even though she was shown to survive during the game. I think that she died and after her death she became a witch and summoned the stakes recreating the scene.

13. Why the blood paint on Natsuhi's room?
13. Illusion of magic. Jessica gave the medallion to Natsuhi so that it would protect her from Beatrice. Jessica should've been the only one to know about it (unless Kumasawa was stalking them behind the corner) so I'd say she's suspicious.


After reading through all my text again I don't see anything new, just the old Jessica, Shannon and ah-so-obvious-Eva as culprits :p

[Megaolix]

On theories basing on George being mastermind:

Then, Shannon killed George's both parents and hid under the bed (if Genji was not accomplice).



Problem: How did she enter the room?

The room was declared a closed room in red. Furthermore, It was also stated in red that the murderer was also in the room. Since Hideyoshi was in the bath, the only way to enter is for Eva to remove the chain and let the person enter.

There's no way Eva would have done that for someone who should be dead AND locked in the storehouse.

In fact, since she also suspected the servants, she probably wouldn't have let them enter either. Even if she did, she would be on guard against sudden movement. There would probably have been signs of a struggle in the room if one was the killer.

Here's my blue: Eva would have allowed only George to enter. George is also the only person she wouldn't be on guard against.

And for the lock...

The culprit was inside the room when Genji first tried to open the door. As soon as Kanon and Genji left, the culprit left the room, made teh chain appear as if it was set and painted the door for distraction, as to make sure no one would thinking of testing the chain again.

The biggest hole in my theory is that George was with the others... If it isn't George, then who?

[chounokoe]

My personal thoughts on these questions, I didn't spend too much time thinking about them through but this is how I picture them in my head:

Well I just added some stuff, because I thought some thoughts were actually quite interesting...while I added some other thoughts entirely of my own.


1. How did Eva get Kinzo's ring in EP3?
1. Quickly I could come up with two possibilities. The first one is that Eva was not in the room the whole time when she was supposed to be sick, she might have gone to take the ring from Kinzo's finger (AFAIK it was never taken from the corpse and she wanted it badly). 2nd having read Ep5 you could think that either Krauss or Natsuhi had the ring therefore after killing them she would have it. There are many other possibilities as well but I'll just mention those two that seem most fitting to me.

Actually another possibility is that Kinzo's corpse is stored within the room where the gold is kept. We don't know what actually happened to Kinzo's body after he died, so he could literally be anywhere on the island.
We don't know if the ring was ever actually taken of his finger, of course yet Beatrice owning the ring heavily supports the theory that the culprit who is posing as Beatrice somehow got the ring into his/her posession.
If we regard that as true, the scene with Beato giving 'Eva' the ring might not be that far from the truth, even though it is heavily magically tainted.

2. How could Maria's diary survive?
2. Ep3 Maria probably left her bag at the guesthouse. If the bunnies Maria owns were in her bag and the culprit got them (creating Siestas as furniture), I think it's plausible to say that the culprit had Maria's note with her as well. Eva should've been the only one to survive though, so I'm not sure how she got it if she was not the culprit. Anyway Eva did save some books from the guesthouse so why not Maria's notes as well because they looked interesting.
That reminds me, have we ever seen Maria's book which has all the magic circles AFTER they have started appearing around the mansion?

The last part is actually the most interesting thing, namely that the magic circles STOPPED appearing after Maria either died or was kept under close watch for an extended period of time (Episode 3 and 4).
So it is still possible that someone on the island actually used Maria's notes, or even her knowledge, on the supernatural to construct the 'magic world' that is presented to us. Of course this implies that the one creating the appearance of magic and the one killing could be 2 different people...which is also backed by several events (e.g. Episode 1's magic circles for the first and second twilight weren't there the first time people noticed odd things about the doors.).

4. Why Rosa could survive the chapel scene and why her letter was never read out?
4. There is definitely something suspicious about Rosa in Ep2 because she's lying to Battler and the others about Shannon and Genji. I believe it was all a set up by the culprit to frame Rosa.

I asume she was equally framed as Natsuhi in Episode 5 (and possibly Episode 1), to appear as a possible culprit later on, much like what happened to Eva after Episode 3.
She could have been blackmailed with the events sorrounding the young Beatrice's death back in her youth, for which she still holds herself responsible. Yet in Episode 3 she freely spoke about that and there was no chance to blackmail her about that (what exactly Natsuhi did different I still don't know).
...
Now that I think about it, there is also another thing that's hinting in that direction.
Natsuhi had terrible headaches in Episode 1, yet we never knew why, but it is hinted at in Episode 5 that it was all herself feeling guilty and being scared.
Rosa in Episode 2 got a terrible headache after meeting 'Beatrice' in the garden and getting the later, after that she started acting strange and making up stories, similar to Natsuhi who wanted nobody to know about the mysterious boy's phonecalls.
Eva in Episode 3 had terrible headaches everytime 'Young Eva/Eva-Beatrice' talked to her or acted out in public.
So maybe there really is someone who is blackmailing the women on Rokkenjima with individual dark spots in their past...the question is, who could know about them and what exactly could Eva's dark spot be.

6. Why wrote the 07151129 on the door? Regardless of who wrote it, I am more interested in why.
6. Never ever tried to solve that, too irritating.

Regarding the fact that Eva eagerly wrote it down, I think it was a 'present' for her, for aiding the actual culprit by lending her 'identity' to him. At least this is how I tried to solve Episode 3 for myself.

7. Why wrote the letters-in-the-bottle? What did Beatrice hope for?
7. Again, I haven't really given it much thought.

It could either be the killer, wanting to spread further confusion about what actually happened on the island, creating an eternal mystery through which he/she would become immortal in a way. That would be somehow mirroring the striving to ascend to the level of an 'endless witch'.
Or it could be someone who knows about the killers plans, yet doesn't know exactly how this plan will play out (maybe every Episode we've seen was individually planned out from the start and the culprit just waited which one would be succesfull) and so he/she sends out every plan she knows about, hoping the right one will reach safe borders and someone in the future will actually try and reach the truth.

9. Were the tests shown in EP4 real? Were George and Jessica actually asked the question? Why acted in this way if it was fake?
9. I think they're real. At least I couldn't think of anything if they were fake.


I was just thinking...what if Ronove and Gaap at this point didn't really mirror Genji and somebody among the servants, but Jessica and George and they were either fighting against each other or against themselves (their desire to continue with whatever plan they may have).
If Jessica's death would have been suicide out of desperation, there would be no problem in solving this 'closed room'. Of course George is still a mystery...but Jessica could have just killed him down there and then went up to her room, where she realized what she had down and after phoning Battler she killed herself...yet of course that leaves the question what may have happened to the weapon.

[LyricalAura]

Does anyone have any ideas on these questions?

Here's my thoughts on some of them.

2. How could Maria's diary survive?

We don't know how the police obtained the diary. Maybe they confiscated it from Eva when they found her.

3. Who killed Krauss and Natsuhi in EP3 and who staked them?

All of the windows were locked from the inside, but George definitely left through a window, and since the entrances were barricaded, Krauss and Natsuhi must also have left through a window. Jessica was under Battler's observation, so only Eva or Nanjo could have relocked the windows in question. And under the circumstances, an innocent person would immediately report a window suddenly being opened, but no one did so.

On the other hand, strangling isn't an instant death or anything. Either Krauss and Natsuhi got separated and one was killed without the other's knowledge, or they were attacked by two culprits at the same time. The first option works if they were killed in the guesthouse, but if that were true, why drag them all the way out to the arbor? And would that really be feasible given the time constraints involved?

If Krauss and Natsuhi were actually killed in the arbor, it's more likely that they were sticking together. They could have been out there following George, since he left at around the same time they did. At that point it's hard to decide on a particular pair of killers since there's a bunch of options. Eva and George, Eva and Nanjo, George and Nanjo, Eva or Nanjo and somebody from the mansion...

4. Why Rosa could survive the chapel scene and why her letter was never read out?

Rosa's letter contained instructions for her role in a mystery game being acted out. It was initially planned that the six in the chapel would fake their deaths, and that Shannon would pretend to discover the slip of paper marked "chapel" in order to lead everyone to the bodies. Then, since the chapel door was left unlocked, Rosa and the servants would pretend that it actually was locked in order to create the closed room. Up to this point, everything went according to plan.

After that, Rosa was supposed to tell everyone about the meeting with Beatrice, which would make Beatrice the prime suspect. The taunting letter in the honored guest room was intended to be the next clue. However, since the people in the chapel actually were dead, the plan was derailed and everything became confused. It looked to us like Rosa was the prime suspect, but in reality, since the door was unlocked, anyone who knew about the game could have committed the murders. Rosa simply wasn't there when the culprit arrived. Since the servants were in on the setup, she also had a really good reason to suspect all of them.

5. Natsuhi's death in EP1. I meant how you guys interpret the red texts concerning this case.

I agree with Raneh, this isn't very ambiguous at all. If Kanon or Shannon was a survivor, they had the alibi of everyone thinking they were dead, so they could have shot Natsuhi.

6. Why wrote the 07151129 on the door? Regardless of who wrote it, I am more interested in why.

I'm not sure, but I can't think of any other reason for it than payment with one of the safety deposit boxes. The PIN is useless without a key and an access card though, so maybe we should assume that whoever it's directed at already has those two things. On the other hand, Ange, Kumasawa's son, and Nanjo's son received all three items in the mail. Why couldn't mysterious recipient X have been paid the same way?

7. Why wrote the letters-in-the-bottle? What did Beatrice hope for?

Mystery game props that got washed out to sea by accident, maybe? If they were from the culprit trying to confuse the police, throwing them into the sea would be a really stupid way to do it. There'd be no way to ensure that the bottles would ever be found, or if they were found, that they would be publicized.

Although, one bottle was found by the same fisherman twice, wasn't it? I guess you could also suspect that people were bribed to "find" the bottles instead of the culprit trusting chance to wash them up in a good location.

8. Why killed every servants in the 1st twilight in EP3?

If I keep going with the mystery game theory, then First Twilight victims aren't chosen because of any deep reason, but because they are the first fake "victims" according to the game plot. Killing them generates maximum confusion and allows the culprit to take advantage of closed rooms set up by the victims.

9. Were the tests shown in EP4 real? Were George and Jessica actually asked the question? Why acted in this way if it was fake?

If George and Jessica were tested that way, what happened to their letters? The only one Battler found was the one directed at him. It might be that the other two were made up by Beato to keep Battler from realizing how weird his own test was.

13. Why the blood paint on Natsuhi's room?

Mystery game theory again. The objective of the game plot seems to be to convince the players that the culprit is a witch, so we can explain a lot of weird things as plot elements for that purpose. In this case, Jessica giving the scorpion charm to Natsuhi was a deliberate setup for one of the servants to paint the bloody handprints on her door, creating the illusion that the charm protected her from something supernatural.

[imaginari]

A lot of these questions were ones that I have the most trouble solving, so excuse my vagueness:


3. Who killed Krauss and Natsuhi in EP3 and who staked them?
They were probably killed by the culprit (i.e. not Eva) although I have no way to prove this. They were almost definitely not in the guesthouse when they died.

4. Why Rosa could survive the chapel scene and why her letter was never read out?
I have her down as an accomplice of sorts, but I don't really know why she was spared this game but not others. Possibly because she didn't read the letter, and the culprit needed her around to do this?

7. Why wrote the letters-in-the-bottle? What did Beatrice hope for?
As others have suggested, Beatrice wanted people to believe in her. Whatever covered up the evidence combines with the contradictory stories to create discussion of the murders, and therefore expand her influence beyond the island.

8. Why killed every servants in the 1st twilight in EP3?
I'd guess that the culprit couldn't kill the people in the dining hall for whatever reason, and killed the servants as a backup plan of some sort.

9. Were the tests shown in EP4 real? Were George and Jessica actually asked the question? Why acted in this way if it was fake?
I could believe in them if not for one large hint - the time and location of George's test. He and Shannon always go to the arbor at 10 PM on the first day - in EP2 he even tells her "same place, same time" or something along those lines. He gets there in EP4 an hour late, but the coincidence is weird enough for the narrator to "lampshade" it, as a certain website would say. It made me wonder if what happens in that location isn't some sort of lie, not just in this game, but in all of them.

10. Did Real-Beatrice (I mean Maria's master) solve the epigraph and find the gold?
Someone had to have taken the three gold bars shown in the chapel. I'm thinking that the culprit either solved the riddle or was shown the gold by Kinzo.

11. What was the meaning behind the embossing on the chapel? Why Kumasawa jotted them down?
It has to be some sort of clue to the epitaph. Also, someone pointed out that "quadrillion" sounds a bit like "Kuwadorian" when spoken in Japanese.

12. Did Amakusa kill Ange in 1998? Really under the order of Okonogi?
I'm thinking that, no, he killed Kasumi's henchmen and was unable to save her.

[ijriims]

IRRC, one of the letters-in-the-bottle was found by a fisherman a few days latter after the incident. The other one was found several years latter by another fisherman.

The Mystery game theory is interesting. But we need a secret culprit who knows all the prank and made them real, or if one of the organizers was the culprit, then he or she needed to kill all the other participants in order to remain hidden.

The fact that no one screamed "I thought it was a game!!" throughout the episode seemed to be against this theory.

And to think that family meeting was holding and adults were busy "socialing" with each other, it was certainly not a good time to play this kind of prank. I guess only Maria (and real Beatrice) would love this kind of prank.

No mystery game would have a plan like everyone dead, I guess.

But still interesting, it reminds me of "A Murder is Announced" by Agatha Christie.

-------------------------------------------------

The reason I asked how Natsuhi was killed is I want to know how you guys get around the red texts for that case.

I think straggling was used because using a shotgun would alarm the people upstairs, I do think Eva killed Krauss and Natsuhi in the guesthouse and moved them outside so she could push the responsibility to the mysterious killer. To her amaze, their bodies were staked afterwards!! By some person who was thought to be dead while not...

Two additional questions for you guys:

14. Why Gohda and Kumasawa were hanged in the garden shed? If they were not dead when Battler peeked them from the side window, what were they doing until they were confirmed dead by Battler?

15.Why opened the stomach and stuffed with candies?

[ameskitty]

By Shannontrice and Jessitrice I meant theories basing on Shannon and Jessica being real Beatrice respectively.

"Beatrice" isn't necessarily the culprit, remember, so even if all four of them are thrown out as a culprit in this episode that doesn't mean that none of them can be Beatrice. It's important to make theories remembering that it's still likely that the culprit and Beatrice are separate entities. (of course they could be one and the same, but it hasn't been proven either way)

I wouldn't go throwing people out as suspects until EP6 is out and read anyways. "Don't judge a book by its cover", like they always say.

[ijriims]

"Beatrice" isn't necessarily the culprit, remember, so even if all four of them are thrown out as a culprit in this episode that doesn't mean that none of them can be Beatrice. It's important to make theories remembering that it's still likely that the culprit and Beatrice are separate entities. (of course they could be one and the same, but it hasn't been proven either way)

I wouldn't go throwing people out as suspects until EP6 is out and read anyways. "Don't judge a book by its cover", like they always say.

If you consider the Beatrice who taught Maria magic was the same one who sent the bank cards and wrote the letters-in-the-bottle, I think it was almost impossible to consider that this Beatrice was not the mastermind of the Rokkenjima murders.

From the new gamecover, conservatively, at least I can say the young couples will be the focus in EP6.

[Megaolix]

So... Was my theory already discussed or something? I wondered if at least I broke the locked room. :(

Anyway, I want to bring a crazy theory. There's an important ring missing that could point to the culprit. And I remember only one other ring being talked about.

So... Can a ring be disguised?

[rogerpepitone]

Getting into Eva's room:
- George could have gotten in at any time.
- Battler might have been able to (Eva said she trusted him).
- The killer could have already been in the room before Eva / Hideyoshi entered. (But how would s/he know where to hide?)

[LyricalAura]

Everyone's assuming that Eva and Hideyoshi opened the door for someone. What if they were killed outside the room, and then dragged in and posed?

[Kaisos Erranon]

Everyone's assuming that Eva and Hideyoshi opened the door for someone. What if they were killed outside the room, and then dragged in and posed?

...Huh, you know, I never thought about that. :heh:

Isn't there red preventing that, though?

[Megaolix]

...Huh, you know, I never thought about that. :heh:

Isn't there red preventing that, though?

Actually, yes.

Both were killed by another person!
It is not the case that, after the construction of the closed room, one of them committed suicide after committing murder!
Furthermore, the murder was carried out with both the victim and the perpetrator in the same room!
No method exists for the perpetrator to commit murder from outside the room!

Edit: ...Or not. The room was never specified. But again, Eva was probably also on her guard until she reached her room. Even if they were attacked, I doubt you can kill both at the same time. Furthermore, considering the only wound noticed was the one that was drippling blood, there would have been trace of it if they were transported.

[Kaisos Erranon]

Ah, there we go, thank you.

Then either the closed room itself is faked (and there are many ways to do this. Like Battler says, we need to read more detective novels) or the perpetrator (one of the first twilight victims, most likely Shannon) is still inside the room when the others enter.

[LyricalAura]

Actually, yes.

Both were killed by another person!
It is not the case that, after the construction of the closed room, one of them committed suicide after committing murder!
Furthermore, the murder was carried out with both the victim and the perpetrator in the same room!
No method exists for the perpetrator to commit murder from outside the room!

Nope. What part of that red specifies which room it's referring to? The only requirement is that the killer was in the same room as the victims when they died.

It's also worth noting that Eva had her shoes on even though she was posed on the bed. Who puts on shoes before they answer the door?

EDIT: Whoops, ninja'd by Megaolix.

[Kaisos Erranon]

Nope. What part of that red specifies which room it's referring to? The only requirement is that the killer was in the same room as the victims when they died.

I think the last line is in the context of the "room in which they were found", but I'd need to play the Ep4 Tea Party again.

In any case, they'd still need to use a chain trick or be hiding in the room, regardless of where the victims were killed.


Edit: Ah, a post edit.

Yeah, you have a point, there'd be more blood if the bodies had been moved.

[Megaolix]

I noticed it just after posting this too.

But that severely limits the number of suspects in that case. Anyone 'alive' missing when Eva and Hideyoshi left?

[Kaisos Erranon]

But that severely limits the number of suspects in that case. Anyone 'alive' missing when Eva and Hideyoshi left?

I think Kanon and Genji were wandering around at the time.

[LyricalAura]

Yeah, you have a point, there'd be more blood if the bodies had been moved.

Not necessarily. Some of that blood could be red paint, especially if the culprit really wants it to look like they were killed in the room. It's the same trick that was probably used to fake the murder scenes in Episode 5.

[Kaisos Erranon]

Not necessarily. Some of that blood could be red paint, especially if the culprit really wants it to look like they were killed in the room. It's the same trick that was probably used to fake the murder scenes in Episode 5.

...No, there's not ENOUGH blood on their bodies for them to have been moved. The only blood on Eva and Hideyoshi's corpses are the blood on their foreheads... although I will admit that they could have been washed off. Their shower was running, after all.

Red paint looks very little like blood, also.


Actually, I've been wondering something for a while now... why did Kanon and Genji need those shears to open the door? With nearly all chain-locked doors, if your arms are thin enough, it's pretty easy to reach through the gap and unlock the chain yourself.

Or, you know, lock it again after committing the murders.

[Renall]

You guys are drawing an awful lot of conclusions from a cover that may not have anything to do with anything really. Besides, that could just as easily be George's "embarassed" face as his "evil" face.

Nothing says where Hideyoshi and Eva were from the time they left to the time Battler saw their corpses. Someone could have killed them and taken them into their room just as easily as they could have been let into the room and killed there. The killer would've had to hide somewhere though, unless the chain is a trick. This does mean you have to assume Genji and/or Kanon are lying though.

Also just to note something...

But honestly, a human who was willing to kill his parents and the whole family for money and to get freed, while being able to fake the tears so perfectly, was just a monster. I doubt Ryukishi07 would invoke such a downturn (though it was certainly a powerful twist.).
We have to accept that someone on Rokkenjima has a hidden nature which is not as they appear to be and that this person is willing to commit murder. There is an incredibly, incredibly slim chance of one of the people killing others having a "good" reason for doing it (that is, a reason which is not immediately dismissable as excessive). However, I suspect that to the killers their particular reasons for killing make sense, if only to them.

If we accept this is true, then we must be willing to consider the possibility that George, or Shannon, or Kumasawa, or Gohda, or some other person who seems harmless or nice is in fact neither of these things. Battler is pained at having to accuse anyone because he does not know what they are truly thinking. Once he learned Natsuhi's internal nature, he instinctively leapt to her defense. Battler is a good judge of people, but bad at figuring out people's true nature. Thus, he errs on the side of caution when he can. He wants to believe everyone is like Natsuhi. But someone on the island cannot be. At least one person must not be as we see them to be.

One of those people being George/Shannon/Jessica/Kanon is an obvious choice, narratively. People will defend the pairing for emotional reasons and stop thinking. Does that mean one of the four is definitely one of the people hiding their true nature? No, not necessarily. He might use ep6 to hint at that and destroy it. Or he might use ep6 to reinforce their "innocent" nature to hide it further.

At this point about the only non-Battler person I completely absolve is Natsuhi. ep5 has shown so much of her nature now that I'm inclined to agree with Battler that there are things she wouldn't do. Granted, she also has one of the strongest motives (protecting Kinzo and Krauss's honor), and is "crazy," but I think the point of ep5 was to show that having a good motive, no alibi, and an unstable mental state isn't going to make you the killer in Umineko. The killer(s) are very deliberate and probably quite sane. So I'd be looking at the calm, collected people with suspicion.

But we don't know a thing about ep6 right now, so who knows.

[Megaolix]

It was declared a locked room, meaning you couldn't enter or exit like that.

About the next murder...

All of the survivors have alibis!Let us include the dead as well!!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but nowhere in this state that the alibis have to be true, am I wrong?

As for my ring theory, is it too crazy? As far as I remember, there was no letter in Ep3 after Shannon's death was declared in red, right?

[Kaisos Erranon]

It was declared a locked room, meaning you couldn't enter or exit like that.

What was the exact red for that again? The room is still locked, and you are locking and unlocking it, if not by conventional methods.

All of the survivors have alibis!Let us include the dead as well!!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but nowhere in this state that the alibis have to be true, am I wrong?

...Actually, yeah. Alibis aren't defined as a true excuse, just an excuse.

This does mean you have to assume Genji and/or Kanon are lying though.

Don't we always assume this, though? >_>

Granted, she also has one of the strongest motives (protecting Kinzo and Krauss's honor), and is "crazy," but I think the point of ep5 was to show that having a good motive, no alibi, and an unstable mental state isn't going to make you the killer in Umineko.

Schizophrenics like Natsuhi generally aren't the sort of people to commit murders, either, despite being quite crazy... they're too stuck in their own deluded worlds.

The killer(s) are very deliberate and probably quite sane. So I'd be looking at the calm, collected people with suspicion.

Like, ah, George? :heh:

[Renall]

About the next murder...

All of the survivors have alibis!Let us include the dead as well!!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but nowhere in this state that the alibis have to be true, am I wrong?
It's unclear. You are correct that an alibi is merely an explanation; "I was with Bob" does not necessarily prove you actually were. If someone did something, then it must be the case that one of the alibis provided is false.

Of course in Kanon's case it's entirely possible he wasn't killed at all, and wasn't even actually attacked, in which case everyone else would have a valid alibi, since none of them did anything.

[LyricalAura]

...No, there's not ENOUGH blood on their bodies for them to have been moved. The only blood on Eva and Hideyoshi's corpses are the blood on their foreheads... although I will admit that they could have been washed off. Their shower was running, after all.

Oh, I see what you mean. For some reason I remembered more blood than that. But the wound was stopped up with a stake, so wouldn't that reduce the blood flow?

Actually, I've been wondering something for a while now... why did Kanon and Genji need those shears to open the door? With nearly all chain-locked doors, if your arms are thin enough, it's pretty easy to reach through the gap and unlock the chain yourself.

Or, you know, lock it again after committing the murders.

Ryukishi shot that down in one of his interviews (http://community.livejournal.com/witchhunters/6828.html).

[Concerning locked rooms] The somewhat more interesting theory is this: "In the Eva/Hideyoshi locked room from EP1, the door chain is a bit long." There is no conflict with the description in the game, and it is a locked room. All [the culprit] has to do is reach through the door gap and take off the door chain (smile). Even though this is not the truth, it's a unique theory.

In practice, good chains aren't that long anyway. They'd be totally useless if you could just reach in and unlock them. Although if Ryukishi hadn't said this, you could theorize that the culprit replaced the chain with a longer one beforehand.

[Teapot]

The killer(s) are very deliberate and probably quite sane. So I'd be looking at the calm, collected people with suspicion.
This would fit Kyrie perfectly.

[Kaisos Erranon]

Ryukishi shot that down in one of his interviews (http://community.livejournal.com/witchhunters/6828.html).

Damn.

Well then, we go back to a magnet/tape/etc. having been used OR the killer hiding in the room.

This would fit Kyrie perfectly.

Except that Kyrie is absolutely dead at the very start of the first two games.

[Renall]

Except that Kyrie is absolutely dead at the very start of the first two games.
There are almost certainly multiple killers. Looking for the calm and collected type means suspecting people like George and Kyrie, but of course neither could've committed or arranged every death.

It also assumes you're looking for the devil in plain sight. If you're a calculating killer, a good way to dodge suspicion is to appear to be impulsive and emotional. Someone like Gohda or Rosa looks too emotionally flighty to be a calculating murderer, but how much do we really know? In this case I'm less suspicious of Rosa and Gohda and more of someone like, say, Nanjo. Kumasawa maybe. These two definitely know more than they let on, but they like to "let on" a lot of things about their own incompetence/inability to tell a straight-faced lie/etc.

If I wanted to make sure nobody thought I could be the killer, I'd certainly pretend I wasn't competent enough to do it. But for that to work, there'd have to be hints. There are hints that the calm, collected types may know more about the murders than they're telling (George and Maria, Kyrie's phone call). There are also hints that the goofy loveable types are not as harmless as they might seem (Kumasawa and Nanjo's payoff safes and backstory).

And then there's the possibility that "Beatrice" or the staker (if they aren't one and the same) aren't even planning murder to begin with. Certainly someone is, but the person with the most elaborate and showy plans may not be the one actually killing (or may not be the best killer). The reverse is also perhaps true (the killer who has the best showmanship is actually taking advantage of other killers' victims).

[rogerpepitone]

As for Eva & Hide, ep 1, how about:
- Killer leaves through window
- Killer (or accomplice) locks the window from the inside after they break into the room.

[EmilioXChaltier]

I don't know if someone raised this question before, but I've been wondering for a long time if Kanon could be alive in EP1...

All of the survivors have alibis! Let us include the dead as well!!
In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!
Kanon did not commit suicide
Kanon did not die in an accident!

Is being caught in a trap considered as killed ? If not, there is a chance that Kanon never died in EP1 and concealed it in some way ?

Moreover his whereabouts in EP2 and EP4 are very suspicious. Maybe the Kanon from "Kanon is dead" doesn't mean it's this emo-furniture since it is not his real name. If it is the case, it'll be a bit cheap from Ryukishi :)

I think EP6 will destroy (without mercy) my thoughts about him.

[Escargotage]

So, I was re-reading the ending of Episode 2, with Rosa-Musou and I was thinking of the theory that the "goat-heads" were really a landslide and the butterflies were flames. I got to thinking, "Why would Rosa be stupid enough to fire bullets into a landslide to try and stop it?" and a thought came to me. Is it at all possible for there to have been a gas leak inside of the mansion that would cause the family to become delusional from brain damage? Thus making it entirely plausible for her to see them as such?

[Renall]

I don't know if someone raised this question before, but I've been wondering for a long time if Kanon could be alive in EP1...

Is being caught in a trap considered as killed ? If not, there is a chance that Kanon never died in EP1 and concealed it in some way ?
There's nothing that says Kanon died in ep1, and in fact, the ep4 red text makes it very clear that if he died at all, he died in some very odd circumstances. A popular theory right now is that Kanon's death was faked. Basically, there are several possible scenarios:

1) Kanon was attacked by someone but didn't die. The red prohibits any person living or dead from killing him, but it doesn't prevent them from assaulting him. Nanjo was able to save Kanon's life, but he was either too wounded to move or was okay but wanted to operate incognito. Either he or Nanjo and Jessica decided they'd lie and say Kanon was dead, either to protect him from the killer (who wouldn't go looking for someone "dead") or to allow Kanon to hunt down the killer in secret.

2) Kanon attacked himself for unknown reasons or faked being attacked, and either convinced Nanjo and Jessica he was dead, convinced them to tell everyone he was dead, or was working with them all along to pretend he was dead. If Kanon was the killer, fake-killing himself would allow him to continue the murders without being suspected. In this case I find it hard to believe Jessica would be okay with it, but perhaps Nanjo lied to Jessica or Kanon was able to fool or threaten Nanjo.

Basically it comes down to whether Kanon was really injured, and from there, whether Kanon is a culprit. If he's injured, he might have been called dead to protect him while vulnerable. If he's not injured, he's either a culprit or trying to catch the culprit unaware.

[rogerpepitone]

In the manga, it's mentioned that Nanjo, Jessica, George, and Kumasawa were attending to Kanon, and that he was hemorrhaging badly.

[Geekodot]

So, I was re-reading the ending of Episode 2, with Rosa-Musou and I was thinking of the theory that the "goat-heads" were really a landslide and the butterflies were flames. I got to thinking, "Why would Rosa be stupid enough to fire bullets into a landslide to try and stop it?" and a thought came to me. Is it at all possible for there to have been a gas leak inside of the mansion that would cause the family to become delusional from brain damage? Thus making it entirely plausible for her to see them as such?

Then there should be hints pointing to it or it would be breaking the knox rules, wouldn't it?

[ameskitty]

You know what, somebody attacking him makes me think of something - maybe he was non-lethally attacked and then killed later by either Nanjo or Jessica.

It wouldn't even have to be on purpose - maybe Nanjo gave him a sedative but it ended up being too strong or Jessica, by shaking him or something, inadvertently aggravated his wound to the point where it was fatal. Maybe him pulling the weapon out and causing himself to bleed so heavily counts as this - it wouldn't be suicide (since in both languages suicide has to be intentional, I think) but he would've been his own killer.

Far-fetched, but it just came to mind.

There's also the possibility of a surviving person thought dead transcending both descriptors, but that's kind of iffy :/. I'm not a big fan of that sort of wordplay. Then again, him being non-lethally attacked by people who couldn't have killed him is also stretching words a bit. If it wasn't on purpose it also kind of pushes the "accident" text.

If he did die, I think it's much simpler to say he died in a trap - that was never denied, despite the amount of times Battler postulated it, and the fact that there was apparently a door slam luring him makes it likely.

Speaking of EP6 possibly covering him a lot, I won't be surprised if EP6 makes him totally innocent, to be honest. He's too conveniently suspicious for me (as in he's both suspicious in actions and he's constantly in situations where he could've been the killer). And yes, I've said this 1000 times, but really I'd be disappointed if he were the culprit (and not even remotely because I like him as a character :/).

[Raneh]

I agree, I don't think he's the mastermind. However, there are many suspicious and obscure things in his actions and situation, mainly what happens to him/his corpse in almost every episode. There is surely something, but it might not be what we're looking for.

[Megaolix]

Checked the Ange part about the mansion. To say something happened to it because Ange couldn't see the mansion from where she was is wrong, because the island have been left to the wind and rain for 12 years. This is more than enough time in my opinion.

Also, if there had been something like a landslide, an explosion or a fire, there would be a definite mention of it, consider everyone we saw in Ange's world had no clue on what truly happened. And yet nothing like that was advanced.

I've always disliked that point in the first place, I dislike it even more after checking.

[ameskitty]

Checked the Ange part about the mansion. To say that because she couldn't see the mansion from where she was is wrong, because the island have been left to the wind and rain for 12 years. This is more than enough time in my opinion.

Hmm, wasn't there something said about the mansion being torn down or something? I can't find anything, but it's a likely possibility given what happened there.

I agree, I don't think he's the mastermind. However, there are many suspicious and obscure things in his actions and situation, mainly what happens to him/his corpse in almost every episode. There is surely something, but it might not be what we're looking for.

Exactly. For example, he could be actively going after the culprit or desperately trying to hide something completely different (Kinzo's death comes to mind).

And if I think about it again, he could've simply gone into a coma. All they really said was that he "never regained consciousness".

[ijriims]

Also, if there had been something like a landslide, an explosion or a fire, there would be a definite mention of it, consider everyone we saw in Ange's world had no clue on what truly happened. And yet nothing like that was advanced.

Just by rebuking the landslide, or explosion or a fire is not enough, you need to offer something to explain what killed Battler in the end of EP4 and what killed everyone in EP2

[Renall]

Exactly. For example, he could be actively going after the culprit or desperately trying to hide something completely different (Kinzo's death comes to mind).
His behavior on the 4th suggests he is spying on people for some purpose. Not much sense in doing that if you've got a carefully laid-out murder plan already in place, but certainly a suspicious set of actions. However, it seems to speak more to someone investigating than plotting to kill. False-Kanon's actions in ep2 might likewise kind of seem that way, given that he could perhaps have a totally legitimate reason to kill Nanjo and Kumasawa (if they were involved in some attack he witnessed, such as the killing of Jessica).

I think a huge part of the game, and often overlooked, is everyone's actions on the 4th. Kanon and Nanjo are among the people basically completely unaccounted-for for large chunks of the day. What are they up to?

[ameskitty]

Almost all of the magic scenes show him openly offensive against Beatrice, too, and if we go with the general feeling that they show some grain of truth, you can interpret this as him actively trying to defend the people he cares about (heck, everybody) from the culprit.

Maybe he knows who the culprit is but isn't sure what they're going to do/how they're going to do it/if they're even going to do it. How he knows this and more importantly why he's keeping silent would be the question were this the case. (fear of retaliation? some sort of attachment to the culprit when they're not being a lunatic killer? :heh:)

Beatrice seems to enjoy "catching" and "torturing" him, too, so it's pretty likely that the culprit might also has some sort of awareness that they're being followed.

Also note how in EP 5 he seemed kind of pissed when the family forced him and Shannon to sit down and talk about life. Seems like he had better things to do...

Unfortunately I've never really noticed him spying on anybody in particular - so a lot of the things I keep speculating about him aren't really worth much :/. Kanon in general seems like such a big hint but too much is missing to make theories off of him. Unless I'm missing something obvious...

[artirian]

His behavior on the 4th suggests he is spying on people for some purpose. Not much sense in doing that if you've got a carefully laid-out murder plan already in place, but certainly a suspicious set of actions. However, it seems to speak more to someone investigating than plotting to kill. False-Kanon's actions in ep2 might likewise kind of seem that way, given that he could perhaps have a totally legitimate reason to kill Nanjo and Kumasawa (if they were involved in some attack he witnessed, such as the killing of Jessica).

I think a huge part of the game, and often overlooked, is everyone's actions on the 4th. Kanon and Nanjo are among the people basically completely unaccounted-for for large chunks of the day. What are they up to?

Almost all of the magic scenes show him openly offensive against Beatrice, too, and if we go with the general feeling that they show some grain of truth, you can interpret this as him actively trying to defend the people he cares about (heck, everybody) from the culprit.

Maybe he knows who the culprit is but isn't sure what they're going to do/how they're going to do it/if they're even going to do it. How he knows this and more importantly why he's keeping silent would be the question were this the case. (fear of retaliation? some sort of attachment to the culprit when they're not being a lunatic killer? :heh:)

Beatrice seems to enjoy "catching" and "torturing" him, too, so it's pretty likely that the culprit might also has some sort of awareness that they're being followed.

Also note how in EP 5 he seemed kind of pissed when the family forced him and Shannon to sit down and talk about life. Seems like he had better things to do...

Unfortunately I've never really noticed him spying on anybody in particular - so a lot of the things I keep speculating about him aren't really worth much :/. Kanon in general seems like such a big hint but too much is missing to make theories off of him. Unless I'm missing something obvious...

Possible "Rule Z": In all the games, Kanon does a mistake thinking about someone as the main culprit/mastermind. Probably, clear examples would be Natsuhi in EP1 and Rosa in EP2. Well, maybe it´s as Saw, just the letters and phone calls make the difference XD.

Oh, I almost forgot, I´m newbie XD.

[ameskitty]

Hmm, if you want to theorize that, I'd alter that a bit and say that Kanon will always go after the culprit (but get killed in the process, at least so far), unless he is immediately killed in the first twilight or he is not given an opportunity to pursue.

The fact that his body is missing in 2 and 4 means that he likely got close to the correct culprit, as the culprit pretty much has to be somebody who's sneaking around in strange places (like the well, perhaps) and, if they can say, throw his body off a window onto the roof (what I think happened in EP2) and make him look like the culprit, what better revenge for trying to stop them? What he did in EP1 is essentially plain vanilla pursuing the culprit :heh:.

I don't see how he could be getting the culprit wrong (at least in all episodes), but the idea of a rule revolving around him and the culprit is a good shot :). Things don't tend to stay consistent across episodes and it's important to notice when they do.

[Kit]

Speaking about consistency - I dunno if this means anything, but in every episode (at least, up to 4) where Shannon is NOT killed in the first twilight, Eva and Hideyoshi always killed by first twilight, and whenever Shannon IS killed in the first twilight, Eva and Hideyoshi always live through it.

In episode 1: Shannon is killed, Eva and Hideyoshi survive till the second twilight.
In episode 2: Eva and Hideyoshi are killed, Shanon and George survives.
In episode 3: Shannon and all servants killed in first twilight. Eva survives the game.
In episode 4: Eva and Hideyoshi killed in first twilight by Kinzo, Shannon and Kanon imprisoned.

I am unsure if this pattern continues onto episode 5...or if it means anything at all xD but thought I'd point it out.

Another thing that bothers me is how much of an asset Kyrie is in every game where she isn't killed in the first twilight. In episode 3, she is the one who sets everyone on the track of solving the epitaph, and then luring Hideyoshi out of the mansion, and in episode 4, she is the one who manages to correctly deduce that Kinzo is already dead, and then trap Krauss in her contract...The tidbit about the stakes being manufactured in USA also directs attention at Kyrie and Rudolf, especially since the only stake recovered from episode 4 is Mammon, the stake Kyrie was stabbed with, not to mention th introduction of the rest of her family...I just don't know what to make of it!

[ijriims]

Another thing that bothers me is how much of an asset Kyrie is in every game where she isn't killed in the first twilight. In episode 3, she is the one who sets everyone on the track of solving the epitaph, and then luring Hideyoshi out of the mansion, and in episode 4, she is the one who manages to correctly deduce that Kinzo is already dead, and then trap Krauss in her contract...The tidbit about the stakes being manufactured in USA also directs attention at Kyrie and Rudolf, especially since the only stake recovered from episode 4 is Mammon, the stake Kyrie was stabbed with, not to mention th introduction of the rest of her family...I just don't know what to make of it!

The Mammon was recovered is easy, obviously Kyrie did not die in the end of EP3 and after she shot Nanjo, she perished shortly afterwards. Then Eva noticed that this "corpse" moved!! And obviously she quickly find out that she just die not long ago. She was certain that she was the one who wrote the number and most importantly, the person who killed George!! In fury, she probably plugged the stake on Kyrie's body to ...! You know what I mean.:D

And she did not tell Ange about it even though she knew who now was the Beatrice. Apparently not letting Ange know the truth is the cruelest revenge of all...

[Kaisos Erranon]

*snip*

In addition to that, Kanon and Kumasawa always outlive Hideyoshi, and Jessica only survives past the first two twilights if Shannon dies in the first one.

It's by finding little patterns like this that should tell us who died in Ep5... and the order of deaths in Ep4.


And she did not tell Ange about it even though she knew who now was the Beatrice.

Just because Kyrie shoots Nanjo doesn't mean at all that's she's Beatrice... for instance, Nanjo and Eva are really the only ones capable of committing most of the murders in Ep3 (since they're away from everyone else most of the time), and since Ange believes Eva isn't the killer (I think we can trust her judgment) it has to be Nanjo.

Simply put, Nanjo killed everyone except Jessica, Eva, Battler, and himself. He was killed by a vengeful Kyrie, who died of her stomach wound shortly thereafter, Battler was killed by an Eva pushed too far, and Jessica was killed by whatever happens at midnight.

(As for how Nanjo gets around so fast and without anyone noticing... isn't there a tunnel system under Rokkenjima? >_> We know this for almost a fact...)

There, that's Ep3 for you. <_<

[ijriims]

There, that's Ep3 for you. <_<

I don't see how and why Nanjo will write the number on the door.

Beatrice knew the number, and Beatrice should be female. So it could only be Jessica, Kyrie and Eva who wrote the number. Probably it was Jessica's doing, she must have sneaked behind Nanjo and witnessed the murder of George by Nanjo. Then she painted the number on the door.

An amazing feat concerning his age and fitness. Constantly running between the guest house and the mansion...

A pretty evil doctor, wasn't he?

As for why Nanjo could go all the troubles to kill all the people on the island in EP3. He wanted money, didn't he? So he killed all the people as Jessica promised her she would give him the gold after he killed everyone on the island.

As for why he don't kill all the people in other episodes, actually he was the culprit . He performed all the murdering throughout EP1-4. Just that he was manipulated by Jessica behind the scene. And I have to add Kanon as well or no one would kill Nanjo in EP1. And Genji needed to be included as well, or no one killed Nanjo in EP2 (Wait, he must have suicide after he slaughtered everyone, so Genji was not needed as well. Good)


And the first thing for me to do if all the above was true is to erase Umineko from my computer.

[MeoTwister5]

Considering that Kinzo felt so much closer to Nanjo and Genji more than his own family, it wouldn't surprise me if both of them are much more knowledgable about the island than they let appear.

[Kaisos Erranon]

I don't want to argue with you too much, but I don't see how and why Nanjo will write the number on the door.

Beatrice knew the number, and Beatrice should be female. So it could only be Jessica, Kyrie and Eva who wrote the number. I think you probably think it was Jessica's doing...

I have no answer for "who wrote the numbers", and it could very well have been Kyrie, but I'd prefer to think it was someone whose family didn't get one of the 'compensation' letters. (Also, I think Shannon is Beatrice, but eh.)

It makes no difference in regards to who killed who, really...

As to why Nanjo could go all the troubles to kill all the people on the island. I don't know.

Pretty evil doctor, wasn't he?

I've had this suspicion for a while now that Nanjo was responsible for Kinzo's demise, as well, but... it's simply because we know nothing about Nanjo that convinces me that he has something really bad going on in his past.

Also, he's on a similar level of suspicion as the servants, never dies in a first twilight, and sports an evil mustache. >_>

Considering that Kinzo felt so much closer to Nanjo and Genji more than his own family, it wouldn't surprise me if both of them are much more knowledgable about the island than they let appear.

Goldsmith did mention that Nanjo has been in Kuwadorian's basement (part of that tunnel system).

[Renall]

There are only three possible candidates for the person who wrote the numbers:

1) The person who actually set up the accounts.

2) One of the people to be compensated, on the assumption they knew the code that was to be sent to their relatives.

3) Someone who killed one of the people above and found some sort of evidence of the numbers on their person, and chose to write it on the door.

In the case of #1, it's a message from the account-holder to an accomplice who would recognize the meaning of the numbers. In #2's case, it could be a message to the person who set up the accounts (either identifying themselves as alive or perhaps passing some other message along, like "I killed George" or "I'm out of your plan"). In #3's case, it depends who was killed. If #1 was killed by #3, it could be an attempt to frighten #1's accomplices. If #2 was killed by #3, it could be meant as a message to #1 ("I know what you're up to, and to prove it I killed George").

This suggests to me that two people actively aware of the accounts were still alive at the time the numbers were written, or the person who wrote the numbers assumed another person was alive who knew what they meant. I am firmly convinced that Eva and Battler were not the intended recipients of the message, as neither knew what the numbers meant (and Eva writing them down suggests she was planning to figure out what they were later, not that she already knew). Ironically, Eva and Battler may nevertheless have been the only people to see the message for any length of time necessary to think about what it meant, unless George or Nanjo saw it before that.

So then: Who wrote the numbers? And who was it for?

[Dlanor .A. Nox]

I think I got the Eva and Hideyoshi room all wrong before. I was looking at Ep 2 and Battler solved the closed room of the Chapel and I thought what if this solution is applicable to alot of other rooms. For example:

The killer knocked on the door to Eva and Hideyoshi's room and gained entry by convincing them he/she was a friend or some other means. Eva probably thought the killer was someone she could trust. Let the killer in, he/she proceeded to either kill or incapacitate both Eva and Hideyoshi. The killer locked the chain and door, then proceeded to wait. Genji opened the door after hearing no response, after confirming the chain was locked he left with Kanon ordering him to cut the chain. After hearing this the killer commenced with his/her plan. Either by finishing off Eva and Hideyoshi or placing their bodies in the correct positions. After this the killer began to rig the chain rather than cut it. By means such as tape or magnets etc the chain was held in place giving the illusion of a closed room. A secret 2nd action after the initial discovery of the locked room.

I thought of this after I pondered the chapel's solution. That room wasn't a closed room, there was a secret action X that gave the illusion of a closed room. In the Chapel Beatrice gave the key to Maria that started the trick. Second after the murders Beatrice retrieved the key locked the chapel and returned the key this is the action X I am so keen on at the moment. Finally the third event the discovery of the door. I began to think what if it's like this for most if not all solutions. A primary action that sets in motion the closed room. The second and most vital action X which is the setting up of the closed room's illusion by various means. And the third unintentional action by someone other than the killer, discovery in the Chapel's case or in the case of Eva's room the cutting of the lock which compromises the chain and prevent the method from being discovered.

The only difference between my solution and Battler's with the chapel is time. Mine started at the discovery of the Closed Room while Battler's began with the Letter of Beatrice.

[rogerpepitone]

In addition to that, Kanon and Kumasawa always outlive Hideyoshi

Hideyoshi outlives both of them in episode 3.

-----

Pairs of people such that exactly one dies at the first twilight (eps 1-4):
Rudolf & (Kanon, Kumasawa, Kinzo)
(Krauss, Kyrie) & Genji
(Shannon, Gohda) & (Natsuhi, Eva, Hideyoshi)

Pairs of people such that at least one, and sometimes both, dies at the first twilight (eps 1-4):
Rudolf & (Genji, Gohda, Shannon)

Exactly one:
(Krauss, Kyrie) & Genji
(Shannon, Gohda) & (Hideyoshi)

At least one:
Rudolf & Genji

Not that this necessarily means anything; these are still within the bounds of chance. (Out of 18 people, there are 18*17/2 == 153 different pairs. There are 6*12 == 72 pairs with exactly one surviving the first twilight; 6*5/2 == 15 pairs with neither surviving the first twilight; 12*11/2 == 66 pairs with both surviving the first twilight. If there's no pattern to who dies at the first twilight, on average, there will be 153*(72/153)^2 ~= 34 pairs with exactly one dying left after episode 2, ~ 16 pairs after episode 3, ~7 pairs after episode 4, and ~4 pairs left after episode 5.

As for pairs of "A never predeceases B": (going by the order of twilights, with closely spaced deaths as simultaneous):
Kinzo & Shannon
Kinzo & Gohda
Krauss & Rudolf
Natsuhi & Hideyoshi
Jessica & Natsuhi
Jessica & Hideyoshi
Jessica & Rudolf
Nanjo & Hideyoshi
Nanjo & Rudolf
Nanjo & Shannon
Nanjo & Kanon
Nanjo & Kumasawa
Eva & Hideyoshi
Eva & Rudolf
Hideyoshi & Rudolf
George & Natsuhi
George & Hideyoshi
George & Rudolf
Kyrie & Rudolf
Battler & (all but Jessica and Eva)
Maria & (Kinzo, Rosa, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, Kumasawa)
Gohda & Shannon
Kumasawa & Shannon
Kumasawa & Gohda

Kinzo & Shannon
Kinzo & Gohda
Krauss & Rudolf
Natsuhi & Hideyoshi
Jessica & Hideyoshi
Nanjo & Hideyoshi
Nanjo & Rudolf
Nanjo & Shannon
Nanjo & Kanon
Nanjo & Kumasawa
Eva & Hideyoshi
Eva & Rudolf
George & Natsuhi
George & Hideyoshi
Kyrie & Rudolf
Battler & (all but Jessica and Eva)
Maria & (Kinzo, Rosa, Genji)
Gohda & Shannon
Kumasawa & Shannon
Kumasawa & Gohda

[Workworkwork]

Yknow, I was thinking about Eva and Hideyoshi's first twilight, and it hit me..

Battler himself only saw the chain cut, right? The killer cut the chain, waltzed in, and killed Eva and Hideyoshi.

[ameskitty]

It's by finding little patterns like this that should tell us who died in Ep5... and the order of deaths in Ep4.

FYI, the death order in EP4 is available (aka which twilight is who), but you have to look at the credits. It's absent in the TIPS for some reason.

My best guess is that it's based upon a set of rules that is, while not overly complex, hard to deduce when working backwards :/. Here's some of my "general idea" guesses:
* The first twilights are the only remotely random set in the group, but all people who are killed fall into one concrete "group". It's also possible that dying in the first twilight overrides certain rules regarding death order.
* There are no death order rules regarding pairings (slight exclusion below) - after all, Beatrice wants to see them suffer, but she doesn't care how, and this can happen whether one dies before the other, vice versa, or simultaneously.
* The death order rules are arranged such that certain suspicious people appear more suspicious than they really are (Kanon, Nanjo, Rosa). (aka they die later unless killed in a first twilight or necessitated in a second twilight)
* The second twilight can only involve a few specific pairs (a few couples and a few close family members). The pairs are in a specific order on a priority "list" and are narrowed down by who dies in the first twilight. Jessica and George dying in EP4 though kind of throws this off, because otherwise we have:
Eva and Hideyoshi
Jessica and Kanon
Rosa and Maria
???
and we can perfectly guess that Eva will die next in EP5. :/
Not that it's a very clean rule anyways :/.
* Battler may not be killed in any of the ordered twilights.
* The ninth twilight on is irrelevant to the rules.

[Renall]

FYI, the death order in EP4 is available (aka which twilight is who), but you have to look at the credits. It's absent in the TIPS for some reason.
And you believe it? ;)

(This isn't a taunt or anything; personally I don't, and in fact I think it's probably impossible the way the record states)

[Kaisos Erranon]

Hideyoshi outlives both of them in episode 3.

Er, I meant except in Ep3. :heh: That's the only time Hideyoshi outlives Kanon/Kumasawa, and that's because they die in the first twilight.

And you believe it? ;)

(This isn't a taunt or anything; personally I don't, and in fact I think it's probably impossible the way the record states)

What he said.

I meant that if there's a particular pattern to the deaths, we should be able to use it to figure out what really happened in Ep4.

...Battler's game might be useful in understanding this, but only if we get to see ALL the deaths and their exact order.

[ameskitty]

I don't believe it as a death order at all - I just believe it as who was chosen for each "twilight", which I think is the thing we're supposed to be able to predict.

The reason I think the twilights are predictable and not the actual death order is because of the messed-up order in EP2. (how Nanjo and Kumasawa were killed but not staked until a LONG time later, and how the order in which Gohda/Shannon/George supposedly died was not the order in which they were staked)

[Kaisos Erranon]

The reason I think the twilights are predictable and not the actual death order is because of the messed-up order in EP2. (how Nanjo and Kumasawa were killed but not staked until a LONG time later, and how the order in which Gohda/Shannon/George supposedly died was not the order in which they were staked)

Actually, was it ever confirmed that Nanjo and Kumasawa were dead at that point?

But ah, I see what you're getting at... Did Ryukishi say "twilights" or "deaths" in that interview?

Edit: chronotrig's post just says Ryukishi says we should be able to guess "what happens next"... so I guess going with twilights is far easier than death order, since we don't know Ep4's for certain and Ep2's is fucked up.

[ameskitty]

I don't think they were ever confirmed dead, but since they were missing between their supposed death and the staking it's not too naive to assume.

Hmm, looking back...what he said could go either way, but it does seem to imply twilight:

but people who know the "answer" should be able to predict what happens next in the second twilight and beyond.
EDIT: Yeah, you got it XD.

[Kaisos Erranon]

So, if it's twilights that fall into that pattern, I need to revise my charts... actually, does anyone else have the time and/or energy to make a chart with all the twilights on it, and post it up here? Figuring out who died in Ep5 might be very, very useful...

[rogerpepitone]

@Kaisos: http://rogerpepitone.webs.com/umineko/Umineko-notes.html

[ameskitty]

Taking a stab at it (death order in EP5):


Second Twilight part deux: Eva
Fourth: Rudolf
Fifth: Kyrie
Sixth: Kanon
Seventh: Shannon
Eighth: Gohda
"Survives" at least to the 9th: Battler, Natsuhi, Nanjo, Kumasawa, Kinzo


However this was based on a ton of random tiny patterns...I don't think that constitutes an "answer" :/. And, um, that's a strange set of survivors to say the least...