View Full Version : [Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations
Leafsnail
2010-06-26, 16:03
Didn't say they must - just that, if they do, the parents are the best matches. The Jungfrau are kinda presented as "foreign" anyway (introduced to the island by Erika form outside).
How does it help us understand? Well, if we put it another way... what is the narrative purpose of the stakes? Eh, whatever. I'm not gonna fight this point to the death, it just helps me understand.
And the first 3 Siestas all represent ammo types, and all three of these kinds of ammo can be fed into the Winchester used in the story. Are these ammo kinds used? Maybe not, but there's definately at least two different bullets used (one which blasts heads to pieces, one which just leaves a little hole in the middle of the head). 556 does represent a gun though, so I dunno.
In the case of Ronove and Virgilia too we don't learn a lot about Genji and Kumasawa either.
All we learned about Genji is that he's faithful to his master
All we learned about Kumasawa is that she's a respected Mother or teacher figure who can be crafty.
These things are already known from statements in episode 1 and 2. Even if there are meta world representations they don't really do anything and they don't add in any new character development. In fact these characters don't even kill anybody so we also don't have any hints at them malicious characters. It's just pointless.
delita-umw-
2010-06-26, 16:08
Mmm, I see, I knew the first three represented ammo, but didn't know they all could be fed into the Winchester. Interesting. Maybe 556 represents the game breaker? It's presence could be somewhat like Akasaka in Higurashi?
Rudolf sortof matches Beelzebub in terms of sexual desire... and the rivalry between Mammon and Beelz kinda matches the rivalry between Eva and Rudolf.
Incidentally - on "Hideyoshi is gluttony because he's fat", apparently the murderer in ep 1 thought so :heh:.
If it was based on sexual desire only then Rudolf would be Lust. Gluttony is overindulgence in reference to EVERYTHING. That's what makes it so similar to Greed.
However, I think there is a definite reason that Rudolf fought Belphegor. I can't imagine Ryukishi making Kyrie fight her sin, but just throwing a random sister at Rudolf. When an author writes a story and includes a certain detail, it's there for a reason. This especially applies to mystery stories. You can say that how the stakes are matched up doesn't matter, but I think it does because it gives better insight to a character.
Rudolf is sloth to me because he is ultimately a very passive and lazy person. In EP 5 Kyrie was helping him with his issues with Krauss, even though she no longer works in his company as his business associate. Rather than acting on the lawsuit with a plan, Rudolf waited to see how another company fared in a similar case to decide what to do. Instead of paying attention to his family he pays attention more to himself, ignoring what others might think (EP 3 he outright said he wouldn't mind selling his spot on the hierarchy for money, while both Eva and Natsuhi said it would be selfish and disgraceful). Rather than thinking through he goes for cheap lazy tricks (he himself admitted that the duel with Belphegor was unfair to a point because he tricked her).
Nobody fits the definition of Sloth out of the seven adults better than him. Natsuhi is a works incredibly hard for the entire family's sake, Krauss at least attempts to take action, Eva works hard for the sake of her family, Kyrie is always trying her best to keep her shaky family afloat and primarily takes care of Ange and Hideyoshi is also working hard in his company. The only other person you can argue for sloth would be Rosa, but I personally think she fits Lust far better.
All of these can also be loaded into a .45 derringer, as a side note.
5.56x45mm is just the NATO standard ammo type. :) If she did show up, it would indeed imply a NATO-standard rifle, but she never does.
delita-umw-
2010-06-26, 16:15
Ok, so we're pretty much guaranteed to have at least 2 guns on the island in the final game, which raises the question of where this mystery NATO rifle would come from. Hidden detective Kanon anyone?!
Leafsnail
2010-06-26, 16:18
Rudolf is sloth to me because he is ultimately a very passive and lazy person. In EP 5 Kyrie was helping him with his issues with Krauss, even though she no longer works in his company as his business associate. Rather than acting on the lawsuit with a plan, Rudolf waited to see how another company fared in a similar case to decide what to do. Instead of paying attention to his family he pays attention more to himself, ignoring what others might think (EP 3 he outright said he wouldn't mind selling his spot on the hierarchy for money, while both Eva and Natsuhi said it would be selfish and disgraceful). Rather than thinking through he goes for cheap lazy tricks (he himself admitted that the duel with Belphegor was unfair to a point because he tricked her).
Nobody fits the definition of Sloth out of the seven adults better than him. Natsuhi is a works incredibly hard for the entire family's sake, Krauss at least attempts to take action, Eva works hard for the sake of her family, Kyrie is always trying her best to keep her shaky family afloat and primarily takes care of Ange and Hideyoshi is also working hard in his company. The only other person you can argue for sloth would be Rosa, but I personally think she fits Lust far better.
Actually, that certainly makes sense. Then again, Belphegor doesn't really match sloth so much either... and there's still noone who really matches gluttony, heh.
Judoh - so... Ryu is just wasting our time during the anti-mystery sequences?
Judoh - so... Ryu is just wasting our time during the anti-mystery sequences?
I don't think anti-mystery means what you think it means.
and no that's really not what I'm saying. You can place any character in the stake's spot or in Gaap' s spot in episode 4 and get the same result you'd get with who the 'represent supposedly'.
Ok, so we're pretty much guaranteed to have at least 2 guns on the island in the final game, which raises the question of where this mystery NATO rifle would come from. Hidden detective Kanon anyone?!
Amakusa has what has to be a sniper rifle of some kind, which is the only weapon described in the text that has a chance to be that 5.56 rifle at all. But sniper rifles chambered for 5.56 are a rarity, I actually didn't think any existed until I looked them up. Generally sniper rifles start at 7.62 and go up all the way to 20mm. I vote she simply doesn't exist, perished in battle with the Black Witch. :) Maybe Rosa broke it in her childhood or something.
.45 and .410 are the same, and definitely both can be loaded into this particular Winchester of Kinzo's, but .45 generally refers to a bullet, while .410 is a shotgun shell. 00 is actually neither, it's the size of a shotgun pellet (8.4mm) in a shotgun shell that can be loaded into any calibre for which shotgun shells exist. .410 also happens to be the smallest common shotgun round, which is why pistols which can load it exist -- in particular, derringers, and recently, revolvers, because these don't have to care about ejecting the shell.
siberius
2010-06-26, 16:35
Or one of the people Battler thought was dead actually wasn't, and it was this person that killed Nanjo, later succumbing to their own injuries.
This allows Eva-Beatrice to declare this person as deceased in red.
Most people agree that this person has to be Kyrie. The TIPS even point out that stomach wounds aren't very fatal.
Sorry but I don't understand. The red states: "Kyrie is dead" so she is already dead at this point of time.
Sorry but I don't understand. The red states: "Kyrie is dead" so she is already dead at this point of time.
That's proclaimed after Nanjo was murderered and when Eva and Battler learn Jessica is missing. So whoever it is who killed Nanjo died for some reason at that time when it was proclaimed. This much is said in Battler's blue.
Sorry but I don't understand. The red states: "Kyrie is dead" so she is already dead at this point of time.
How is that a problem? Imagine this sequence of events:
Kyrie is found dead, but actually isn't.
Kyrie kills Nanjo.
Kyrie dies from earlier wounds.
Nanjo is dead is announced. Since at this time Kyrie is dead, it looks like nobody could have killed Nanjo.
The time window is narrow but it's definitely there.
delita-umw-
2010-06-26, 16:41
Actually, that's a really interesting point you bring up Oliver. It's generally assumed that the black witch fight is a reference to Rosa breaking the bunny, but what if Kinzo actually owned a sniper rifle and Rosa broke it as a child. I know you're not a fan of the phrase, but I wouldn't put it past Kinzo to own one. Furthermore, it just seems too weird to me to make a reference to Amakusa's gun in the future. Sure, it explains why 556 has no presence in any of the games, but I feel like 07 wouldn't have made a reference to 556 perishing to the black witch if Amakusa is the only one who could possibly have one in the story.
How is that a problem? Imagine this sequence of events:
Kyrie is found dead, but actually isn't.
Kyrie kills Nanjo.
Kyrie dies from earlier wounds.
Nanjo is dead is announced. Since at this time Kyrie is dead, it looks like nobody could have killed Nanjo.
The time window is narrow but it's definitely there.
It could really be anybody besides Kyrie though if somebody entered the room Eva and Battler were and were shot. Then we also have an explanation for why Battler thinks she's the culprit.
I'd actually pick the people who disappeared from the guesthouse to fake since it'd make sense why they all left at the same time.
delita-umw-
2010-06-26, 16:48
Isn't it just assumed that Kyrie is the most likely because she has a fatal wound but not fatal enough to instantly kill her, leading the timing of the death to be pretty matched up? Although another solution could be Hideyoshi if you can believe that a chest wound like that isn't immediately fatal?
Kyrie is popular because she could also kill George. Hideyoshi is equally plausible for not being dead yet, but if he did survive, who killed George?
Isn't it just assumed that Kyrie is the most likely because she has a fatal wound but not fatal enough to instantly kill her, leading the timing of the death to be pretty matched up? Although another solution could be Hideyoshi if you can believe that a chest wound like that isn't immediately fatal?
Yes that's what's assumed, but they don't have to die from a wound it can work with anybody as long as they die in that small window after. I thought of the people who disappeared from the guesthouse simply because nobody else thinks about them. And I see some opportunity there.
Actually, that's a really interesting point you bring up Oliver. It's generally assumed that the black witch fight is a reference to Rosa breaking the bunny, but what if Kinzo actually owned a sniper rifle and Rosa broke it as a child. I know you're not a fan of the phrase, but I wouldn't put it past Kinzo to own one.
Every time you say "I wouldn't put it past Kinzo", Lord Goldsmith kills an Ushiromiya. I should make a poster with that.
That being said, what Kinzo would have would not be a sniper rifle -- as I just said, 5.56mm sniper rifles are a rarity, resulting not from practical concerns, but from poverty. Basically the only one I could find was developed for Philippines marines because they never had enough 7.62 rounds.
But it would not be too implausible at all for Kinzo to own a classic, standard 5.56 weapon from the 60s, like an M16 from the Vietnam war era, introduced in 1963. At the time he would probably still have contacts among the American military and it's not too implausible he would just get one as a gift.
That said in turn, nothing stops Siestas from being associated with both weapons and Maria's bunnies, imagination does not have to have a 1:1 correspondence.
delita-umw-
2010-06-26, 16:54
Kyrie is popular because she could also kill George. Hideyoshi is equally plausible for not being dead yet, but if he did survive, who killed George?
Plot twist, they both survived!
But seriously though, Judoh, while it's possible, isn't the timing a little crazy for it to be anything but a wound inflicted earlier? Out of curiousity, how would you propose a solution with another missing person as the culprit for Nanjo?
edit: Your response actually gave me a thought Oliver. It's been argued that Rokkenjima could actually be a former military base and that's the cause of the end game explosion right? I know there's a lot of debate over whether the whole bomber theory makes sense in the context of the murders, but if we look at the presence of this theoretical M16, we could be looking at a base explosion that no one knows about. It's a pretty big stretch I know, but I'll keep that thought tucked away.
But seriously though, Judoh, while it's possible, isn't the timing a little crazy for it to be anything but a wound inflicted earlier? Out of curiousity, how would you propose a solution with another missing person as the culprit for Nanjo?
It's simple really.
3 people escape from the guesthouse with the same method.
1 of them is a murderer who is faking and has a master key stolen from Kyrie's group (There is a statement suggesting the key was stolen so none of them i.e. Kyrie, Hideyoshi, and Rudolf had the key when they were found)
Murderer Kills Nanjo
Murderer Walks in the room Eva and Battler are in
Nanjo's murderer gets murdered by Eva
Battler dies thinking she's a murderer
delita-umw-
2010-06-26, 17:13
In your theory Judoh, how does Battler die? Getting caught in the crossfire between Eva and the murderer? Cause your blue looks like it implies Eva doesn't kill Battler.
In your theory Judoh, how does Battler die? Getting caught in the crossfire between Eva and the murderer? Cause your blue looks like it implies Eva doesn't kill Battler.
I'm saying she kills both of them while under Battler's supervision, and that we're not shown that because then EVA's trick wouldn't work.
And also since it's a choice between Natsuhi, Krauss, and George it's most likely George she kills under this theory. Go ahead and throw stones.
It's been argued that Rokkenjima could actually be a former military base and that's the cause of the end game explosion right? I know there's a lot of debate over whether the whole bomber theory makes sense in the context of the murders, but if we look at the presence of this theoretical M16, we could be looking at a base explosion that no one knows about. It's a pretty big stretch I know, but I'll keep that thought tucked away.
Unfortunately this particular hypothetical weapon cannot be a hint for the existence of a military base for the simple reason that at the time 5.56 round was introduced, Rokkenjima was already the property of Kinzo and populated by Kinzo and family for ten years -- not very suitable to create a new military base, as it would be hard to conceal the required shipping from random discovery by civilians, i.e. his children. Japanese SDF did not use 5.56 up until 1989 as far as I can see.
If a military base of any kind existed on Rokkenjima, it would have been an Imperial Japanese Army or Navy base, as an American one simply never had a chance to be built in secret, while a Japanese base could have been there since, well, forever.
EDIT: Correction, JSDF did, at least, use imported and locally produced licensed M-16 and friends since the early 70s, but the argument still stands.
siberius
2010-06-26, 17:24
That's proclaimed after Nanjo was murderered and when Eva and Battler learn Jessica is missing. So whoever it is who killed Nanjo died for some reason at that time when it was proclaimed. This much is said in Battler's blue.
How is that a problem? Imagine this sequence of events:
Kyrie is found dead, but actually isn't.
Kyrie kills Nanjo.
Kyrie dies from earlier wounds.
Nanjo is dead is announced. Since at this time Kyrie is dead, it looks like nobody could have killed Nanjo.
The time window is narrow but it's definitely there.
Ok. I have reviewed this scene in ep 3 and I think it is acceptable to see it in this way.
Still I think "Gohda" theory is also a possible explanation.
delita-umw-
2010-06-26, 17:25
Can EVA really pull something off like not showing a critical scene like that? In game 3 I assume we still have a reliable narrative from Battler's point of view, so I'm a little skeptical that she could kill another person while under his supervision and that we'd be denied information on that.
edit: Haha, like I said Oliver, I'm pretty sure it's a very stretched idea. But I'm satisfied knowing that the possibility of an unknown weapon that uses 5.56 rounds could have existed on the island.
Can EVA really pull something off like not showing a critical scene like that? In game 3 I assume we still have a reliable narrative from Battler's point of view, so I'm a little skeptical that she could kill another person while under his supervision and that we'd be denied information on that.
The witch's side can apparently pause and start the game any time they want. And Battler does that as GM apparently. Can they omit parts of a scene though? I'm not sure. Maybe under Oliver's editor theory they can.
delita-umw-
2010-06-26, 17:42
Good point Judoh. I thought Oliver's editor theory was very interesting and if we follow that idea, it technically isn't a lie to just omit information on the event in a similar way that Beato can say there are no more than 18 people on the island. But, and maybe Oliver could clarify this, does this editor power extend to Battler's narratives?
Raiza Sunozaki
2010-06-26, 17:44
That being said, what Kinzo would have would not be a sniper rifle -- as I just said, 5.56mm sniper rifles are a rarity, resulting not from practical concerns, but from poverty. Basically the only one I could find was developed for Philippines marines because they never had enough 7.62 rounds.
But it would not be too implausible at all for Kinzo to own a classic, standard 5.56 weapon from the 60s, like an M16 from the Vietnam war era, introduced in 1963. At the time he would probably still have contacts among the American military and it's not too implausible he would just get one as a gift.
Crackpot theory!
Kinzo has a fascination for collecting rarities. In fact, it was this fascination, linked with his desire to revive Beatrice, which led to his massive collection of magical tomes and items. But before his occult obsession, his fascination with guns led him to aquire a rare sniper rifle from a Philippine connection. Or is this outside time contraints?
Every time you say "I wouldn't put it past Kinzo", Lord Goldsmith kills an Ushiromiya. I should make a poster with that.
Since you've used this line twice already...
I wouldn't put it past Kinzo. I wouldn't put it past Kinzo. I wouldn't put it past Kinzo. I wouldn't put it past Kinzo. I wouldn't put it past Kinzo. I wouldn't put it past Kinzo. I wouldn't put it past Kinzo. I wouldn't put it past Kinzo. I wouldn't put it past Kinzo. I wouldn't put it past Kinzo. One for Ange. I wouldn't put it past Kinzo. And in case one of the servants is an Ushiromiya. I wouldn't put it past Kinzo.
Crackpot theory!
Kinzo has a fascination for collecting rarities. In fact, it was this fascination, linked with his desire to revive Beatrice, which led to his massive collection of magical tomes and items. But before his occult obsession, his fascination with guns led him to aquire a rare sniper rifle from a Philippine connection. Or is this outside time contraints?
With a rifle introduced in 1996? Yes. :)
Since you've used this line twice already...
I wouldn't put it past Kinzo. I wouldn't put it past Kinzo. I wouldn't put it past Kinzo. I wouldn't put it past Kinzo. I wouldn't put it past Kinzo. I wouldn't put it past Kinzo. I wouldn't put it past Kinzo. I wouldn't put it past Kinzo. I wouldn't put it past Kinzo. I wouldn't put it past Kinzo. One for Ange. I wouldn't put it past Kinzo. And in case one of the servants is an Ushiromiya. I wouldn't put it past Kinzo.
You murderer! :)
delita-umw-
2010-06-26, 17:53
Well we've already determined that Lincolntrice is time traveling so...
edit: Can we officially conclude that Raiza is the real mastermind behind Rokkenjima?
Raiza Sunozaki
2010-06-26, 18:50
Well we've already determined that Lincolntrice is time traveling so...
edit: Can we officially conclude that Raiza is the real mastermind behind Rokkenjima?
Hehehahahahahihihihihihi*cackle**cackle**cackle*.. .
Congratulations on finally catching on... Delitaaaaaaa! Using my time travel powers, I ventured back to 1986 to decimate the Ushiromiya family, so that you fools today could sit around your computers all day discussing such ridiculous concepts! I even went back even further to drag Lincoln into this whole mess... Kyahahahah...
This also explains why Kinzo has in his possession a sniper rifle from 1996. Everything fits...
You bastard! I could understand ruthlessly slaughtering tons of innocent people, but Lincoln? Why? He's Abraham Lincoln!
Smeckledorf
2010-06-26, 21:11
Unless of course, Kinzo invented the sniper rifle and the culprit secretly sold off the plans later. No one ever learned that the plans came from Rokkenjima because the culprit wanted to keep it that way.
Raiza Sunozaki
2010-06-26, 21:20
You bastard! I could understand ruthlessly slaughtering tons of innocent people, but Lincoln? Why? He's Abraham Lincoln!
Zehahaha... I'm Canadian, dude. I couldn't care less about those petty American politics... especially when I don't care much about my own.
This all aside, shouldn't we get back on topic?
TkMacintosh
2010-06-26, 21:41
The witch's side can apparently pause and start the game any time they want. And Battler does that as GM apparently. Can they omit parts of a scene though? I'm not sure. Maybe under Oliver's editor theory they can.
I would think that because Meta-Battler had his eyes closed, his ears covered, and him screaming to drown out the voice, Meta-Battler never heard that part. So I'm thinking that when Meta-Battler finally openend his eyes and his ears, he realized that it was past that scene, so Piece-Battler doesn't have the memories of it...
OR.....Ryukishi07 just omitted it to -us- so we don't realize the truth behind it >.>
I would think that because Meta-Battler had his eyes closed, his ears covered, and him screaming to drown out the voice, Meta-Battler never heard that part. So I'm thinking that when Meta-Battler finally openend his eyes and his ears, he realized that it was past that scene, so Piece-Battler doesn't have the memories of it...
OR.....Ryukishi07 just omitted it to -us- so we don't realize the truth behind it >.>
:twitch: That actually makes A LOT of sense. I never thought of looking at it that way before...
Raiza Sunozaki
2010-06-26, 21:52
That is a good idea, and possibly a clever trick on Ryuukishi's part. Battler, being his innocent self, finds it hard to deal with the horrifying scenes of the early games. So he breaks down and shuts out the world, making it impossible to receive and clues in that state.
Assuming this is a game between us and Ryuukishi, it would be quite devious of him to exclude important clues of the game during these moments. Could we flip the chessboard around to assume now whenever Meta-Battler has a mental breakdown, something important is happening in-game?
This might explain why the early games feel so difficult, while the difficulty level given to some of them are lower than they appear to be.
TkMacintosh
2010-06-26, 22:56
:twitch: That actually makes A LOT of sense. I never thought of looking at it that way before...
You also have to remember that when Meta-Battler DOES close his eyes, cover his ears, and scream, it was at the point when Beatrice was defeating EVA-Beatrice....So yeah >.> That's all I got :x
Abstract.
Can the Knox rules forbid the detective from fabricating hints to satisfy Knox 8th?
EDIT: And not so abstract. In Ep5, the following is said when Erika is introduced:
Bernkastel: "I proclaim that Furudo Erika is the detective. The detective is not the culprit. No proof is needed to show this."
Lambda: "There was an exception clause in the original, but for this game the detective isn't the culprit has been proclaimed in red, so you don't need to consider the exception."
Now wait a minute.
I have so far failed to find a variant of Knox rules which would provide any exception to Knox 7th. What exception clause are they talking about?
Do they really mean to say that Knox 7th applies to this game only? Really?...
EDIT EDIT: Aha! Found the true original (http://gadetection.pbworks.com/Ronald-Knox's-Ten-Commandments-for-Detective-Fiction).
VII. The detective must not himself commit the crime. This applies only where the author personally vouches for the statement that the detective is a detective; a criminal may legitimately dress up as a detective, as in the Secret of Chimneys, and delude the other actors in the story with forged references
I wonder, did anything of the sort happen in Ep1-4?... That is, did anyone dress up as Battler?
I doubt it. First off, there has been no one who has been described as capable as passing as Battler, and nor has there been any evidence of another one of Battler's suits lying around.
Furthermore, that would limit the people capable of dressing up as Battler to Kyrie and Rudolf, as only they would know what he would be wearing to the reunion and thus be able to prepare a disguise in advance. The setup to have a fake Battler is more or less impossible, as unlike with Piece Beato, we lack the means, the person, and the motive for someone to pretend to be Battler.
However, Rosa did suspect Battler of being an impostor during the second game.
Yes, but Rosa lied in episode 2. She said she spoke to Kinzo, remember? Well, either she's being malicious, or she's being crazy.
In any case, common sense can tell us that the Battler we see as a piece is the Battler we know and love. Unless it's all part of Rudolf's ingenious plan to hit on Jessica and Shannon without them knowing, of course.
In a sense, Battler is an impostor. He's not who others think he is. But he's also not who he himself thinks he is. I don't think he's an impostor in the sense Rosa was thinking. And even if he were, and Knox 7 didn't apply, when exactly was Battler in a position to do anything anyway?
Leafsnail
2010-06-27, 12:38
Rosa also said she saw Beatrice in episode 2. So...
Come to think of it, what if "I" in "I am Ushiromya Asumu's ughugugh" refers only to meta-Battler? If they're two distinct entities, it could work out without Rudolf disguising himself.
I don't quite think it works like that. Beatrice claims to have killed various people in red, but it doesn't mean that she, a witch, killed them. Also, remember, Ange used the red to prove that she was Battler's sister. As things stand, the most we can get out of the Asumu trap Beato used in episode 4 is that another person named Battler exists, one that pretty much HAS to be female.
After all....
Ushiromiya Battler was born from Ushiromiya Asumu
Ushiromiya Battler is not Ushiromiya Asumu's SON
Battler is not Asumu's SON
I propose this other Battler, if alive, is either Jessica or Piece Beatrice.
Piece Beatrice has the benefit of Meta-Beatrice using this name trap on Battler, mainly, how would Beato know how to snare Battler in such a precise manner?
Jessica has her immunity from the name constriction red text in episode 6, in addition to dubious circumstances with her birth.
And Oliver, I see what you are saying, but we have to work with clues which are presented. It's possible that Battler and George could have manically plotted to buy out the Ushiromiya family while the camera is not focused on them, but we have no scenes to indicate this. We're given nothing to work with.
This is more or less the whole "trust" thing at play here. We have to more or less trust the author to give us the proper clues needed to solve the story. If we suspect that things are happening with Battler which we don't see, well, we're basically not trusting the author. So I wouldn't quite believe that during these "downtimes" something critical happens with Battler that we are not aware of.
It's more about this... There are multiple moments in the story when Battler is essentially dormant and doing absolutely nothing. Like Renall just said, he isn't in a position to do anything anyway because for much of the time he's doing nothing interesting with the other cousins, and it's so uninteresting that we don't see it on screen at all. This starts being particularly prominent Ep3 onwards, though even in Ep1 there are still long periods when his activities remain not well defined.
What if something interesting does happen to him and the cousins during those periods and we just don't get told?
Wasn't the point of those reds to kind of dance around the idea that having a mother is NOT the same as being born from someone?
IIRC the exact red has been, at least in the anime...:
右代宮戦人の母は右代宮明日夢でる。
Ushiromiya Battler's Mother is Ushiromiya Asumu.
俺は右代宮明日夢から生まれた。
I was born from Ushiromiya Asumu.
Having a mother and being born from someone are two different ideas. This is supposed to open up wormholes for the "Jessica isn't Natsuhi's blood daughter" theories.
For example, I call my best friend my "mom" in real life (not kidding, real life example). We even are listed as mother and son on Facebook. Was I born from her? No. Does that make me any less of my REAL mother's son? Not really, I still have her blood.
Ushiromiya Battler was born from Ushiromiya Asumu
Ushiromiya Battler is not Ushiromiya Asumu's SON
Battler is not Asumu's SON
I propose this other Battler, if alive, is either Jessica or Piece Beatrice.
You are transforming the red text in here in a way that may actually not be valid. The actual reds are:
Beatrice: "I am the Golden Witch, Beatrice. And I opened this game in order to fight Ushiromiya Kinzo's grandchild Ushiromiya Battler."
Battler: "Ushiromiya Battler's mother is Ushiromiya Asumu. My name is Ushiromiya Battler. It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that Ushiromiya Battler was born."
Battler: "It was from Ushiromiya ~~Asumu that I was born.~~"
Beatrice - "You are not Ushiromiya Asumu's son."
Battler - "Ange is, ...my little sister."
Notice that "Ushiromiya Battler is not Ushiromiya Asumu's son" does NOT follow necessarily from this set if it refers to the Other Battler, so the Other Battler can still be male if it wants. In fact, no specific information about the Other Battler may be concluded other than that a creature like this has to exist or have existed. What does inevitably follow is:
This Battler, i.e. "I" and Ange share either a mother, or a father, or both. -- otherwise she couldn't be his little sister.
"I" was born from a woman named Ushiromiya because that's where his red cuts off.
The only ways this can happen if Ange is indeed Kyrie's daughter, which we have no reason whatsoever to doubt, is by This Battler being the son of Rudolf+Kyrie or Krauss+Kyrie or Rudolf+Eva, (Rosa is exempt by being too young, Natsuhi is pure and faithful) but everything beside Rudolf+Kyrie is so incredibly unlikely and nonsensical, that we should consider it proven that This Battler is the son of Rudolf+Kyrie. But that's beside the point.
We still can't say anything about the Other Battler, and the Other Battler is highly dangerous because it poisons the formal context -- no red that mentions Battler can be trusted while this monster is around. :)
There has to be some other clever way to solve the paradox of "My name is X but I am not X."
Having a mother and being born from someone are two different ideas. This is supposed to open up wormholes for the "Jessica isn't Natsuhi's blood daughter" theories.
That sort of works, but that isn't the problem here, because someone named "Ushiromiya Battler" still gets to be born from Ushiromiya Asumu in red.
For reference, here's the original Japanese for all of this mess:
妾は黄金の魔女、ベアトリーチェ。そして右代宮金蔵の孫、右代宮戦人と戦うためにこのゲームを 開催した。
I am the Golden Witch, Beatrice. And I opened this game in order to fight Ushiromiya Kinzo's grandchild Ushiromiya Battler.
....
右代宮戦人の母は、右代宮明日夢である。俺の名は右代宮戦人#ffffffだ。右代宮戦人は、右代宮明日夢 から生まれた。
Ushiromiya Battler's mother is Ushiromiya Asumu. My name is Ushiromiya Battler. It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that Ushiromiya Battler was born.
そなたは、右代宮明日夢から生まれた。
"It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that you were born."
俺は、右代宮...
It was from Ushiromiya...
そなたは、右代宮明日夢の息子ではない
You are not Ushiromiya Asumu's son.
縁寿は、……俺の妹だ
Ange is, ......my little sister
TTR - I'm using the game red texts, which clearly indicate that a Ushiromiya Battler was born from a Ushiromiya Asumu. In a nutshell, we do have a Battler who was born from Asumu.
Oliver - This does indeed come down to an issue of the red text. Can a red text be wrong? Because there are two statements said about Battler not being Asumu's son.
One way to look at it is indeed to go for the contextual argument that implies THIS Battler is not Asumu's son. But the fact that it is mentioned twice, that it says Ushiromiya Battler is not Ushiromiya Asumu's son in ADDITION to Battler is not Asumu's son that makes me worry.(these two reds are used by Ange to snap Battler out of it, it's in the wiki if you think I am messing them up or something)
Sure, you could say that it's referring merely to the Battler we know and love. But, however, that is not quite the case. The series of red texts, including the two critical ones I listed, state that Ushiromiya Battler was born from Ushiromiya Asumu, and paradoxically, Battler is not Asumu's son.
Plain and simple, the red text would be wrong if there is a Battler who is Asumu's son. If the texts used referred to Battler in the second person only, I'd agree with you, but we have these troubling third person texts that make a Battler being a son of Asumu more or less break the red text. Period. I believe the child in question being a female solves this problem quite neatly.
Any other approach doesn't make too much sense.
This Battler, i.e. "I" and Ange share either a mother, or a father, or both. -- otherwise she couldn't be his little sister.
"I" was born from a woman named Ushiromiya because that's where his red cuts off.
In the Japanese texts, according to umineco.info, it cuts off here:
俺は、右代宮、（「明日夢から生まれた」の部分が復唱不能）
(I, Ushiromiya, (Battler can't repeat "from Asumu I was born"))
He can repeat "himself" or "I," he can't repeat the idea of being born from Asumu, but he also can't repeat the fact of being born. "I was born from" is a nuance of English translation and isn't part of the original Japanese red.
Actually, thinking about it more, it's more like
"Am born from Asumu Ushiromiya I" using both western name order and REALLY freaky syntax is the only way to completely express the same idea.
That sort of works, but that isn't the problem here, because someone named "Ushiromiya Battler" still gets to be born from Ushiromiya Asumu in red.
Yeah, I agree that it's the biggest problem. It really does seem to beg the question: "Are there two Battlers?" :(
Plain and simple, the red text would be wrong if there is a Battler who is Asumu's son. If the texts used referred to Battler in the second person only, I'd agree with you, but we have these troubling third person texts that make a Battler being a son of Asumu more or less break the red text. Period. I believe the child in question being a female solves this problem quite neatly.
The red only says that "you are not Ushiromiya Asumu's son", without using the name "Battler" at all. When This Battler tries to say that "It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that I was born" and fails, he once again is not trying to name himself in this statement.
The red you presume that "Battler is not Asumu's son" simply doesn't exist.
"Am born from Asumu Ushiromiya I" using both western name order and REALLY freaky syntax is the only way to completely express the same idea.
He's still an Ushiromiya then, though. :)
You sure? The text I am speaking of is used by ANGE-BEATRICE to confirm the other text about Ushiromiya Battler not being Ushirmiya Asumu's son. It's in the wiki, http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Truth#End_of_the_Golden_Witchused to confirm statement 149), but I'll go and replay episode 4 just to be safe.
You sure? The text I am speaking of is used by ANGE-BEATRICE to confirm the other text about Ushiromiya Battler not being Ushirmiya Asumu's son. It's in the wiki, http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Truth#End_of_the_Golden_Witchused to confirm statement 149), but I'll go and replay episode 4 just to be safe.
Ah, pardon me, yes, I found it.
;「ベアトリーチェに復唱要求。@“右代宮戦人は右代宮金蔵の孫ではない”。」@
;＜縁寿
`"Beatrice, repeat it.`@` 'Ushiromiya Battler is not Ushiromiya Kinzo's grandchild'."`
;「復唱拒否ね。@ベアトが宣言した２つの赤き真実、@/
`"So you refuse to repeat it.`@` Beato proclaimed two red truths, `@/
se1 59
;“#ff0000戦人は明日夢の息子ではない#ffffff”、@そして/
`'#ff0000Battler is not Asumu's son#ffffff',`@` and `/
se2 59
;“#ff0000金蔵の孫である戦人にしか対戦相手の資格がない#ffffff”。@/
`'#ff0000No one except Kinzo's grandchild Battler is qualified to be an opponent#ffffff'. `@/
Ange indeed does say 'not son' in here. It is also very much not equivalent to what Beatrice said.
If she unambiguously refers to This Battler, this statement provides no information whatsoever on the Other Battler. It is not required to be true for any possible Battler, otherwise Nanjo Junior and a few more hundred people would have to be on Rokkenjima on this day. It may limit the gender of the Other Battler only if it refers to the Other Battler.
P.S. I still think there should be a way to deny the Other Battler completely, as it's the consequences of one existing that are the problem, not Jessica being Rudolf's daughter. :)
I forgot whether Nanjo Jr. was ever given a name in ep4, so I went back and looked in the TIPS, which list him as Masayuki Nanjo. I don't remember that ever actually coming up in the text though, but I probably just forgot.
I forgot whether Nanjo Jr. was ever given a name in ep4, so I went back and looked in the TIPS, which list him as Masayuki Nanjo. I don't remember that ever actually coming up in the text though, but I probably just forgot.
It's actually not encountered in the script of Ep1-4 at all, so it's only in the TIPS.
... The only thing I can think of is there is a clever Japanese wordplay going on, which is the only thing I can think of.
Usually the verb Umareru (生まれる) strictly means "to be born." It is also a passive conjugation of Umu (生む) which is "to give birth to."
Umareru usually only carries the definition "being born" physically, as a woman went through labor and had a baby.
However, Umu is MUCH tricker. It usually can also mean just "to produce." Here's an example sentence:
親しさは侮りを生む。 (shitashisa wa anadori wo umu)
It means "Familiarity breeds contempt."
If we assume that Umareru is not being strictly used as it usually is (not as it usually stand alone verb but more a passive conjugation of Umu) then we could say that some how Asumu didn't "give birth" to him per say, but maybe she produced the idea of him. Maybe the name? Or Asumu made Kyrie mad about her having Rudolf to herself. Kyrie gets extremely jealous and vengeful, which causes Kyrie to sleep with Rudolf. She has Battler. In that scenario, Asumu does kind of produce or give way for Battler.
You could also say that Asumu's motherly kindness to Battler produced the Battler that we have today. Beatrice says Umareru in this context, and not the traditional "give birth to" context.
Battler CAN'T REPEAT the same sentence back because he assumes that Beatrice is using the "give birth to" context. Because of this wrong context assumption, he can't repeat the same sentence? I mean, it's plausible since we've all said before that Red is heavily dependent on context and is there to mislead us sometimes.
Come to think of it, does Dr. Nanjo's given name (Terumasa) ever come up either?
Come to think of it, does Dr. Nanjo's given name (Terumasa) ever come up either?
Yes, in Ep4 in the description of the letter sent "from Nanjo". It is only seen twice in the entire script, both times in the scene where the letter is brought up.
True, Ange says:
戦人は明日夢の息子ではない
"Batora wa Asumu no musuko dewa nai"
"Battler is not Asumu's son"
she didn't use the the form "isn't born from", I wonder if this includes even a foster son? That wouldn't make sense 'though...
She didn't use the surnames either but... "Battler" by itself is pretty unique. There is no reason for Ange to lie or be deceiving about this one.
Battler isn't Asumu's son, and yet someone named Ushiromiya Battler was born from Asumu.
I forgot whether Nanjo Jr. was ever given a name in ep4, so I went back and looked in the TIPS, which list him as Masayuki Nanjo. I don't remember that ever actually coming up in the text though, but I probably just forgot.
The same goes for what concern the death of his daughter. It's simply not mentioned anywhere in the story.
sually the verb Umareru (生まれる) strictly means "to be born." It is also a passive conjugation of Umu (生む) which is "to give birth to."
I'm no japanese expert but I think the form is what clearly defines how the verb should be interpreted. "um-areru" is a passive form "um-u" is an active form. So it's not really ambiguous. the form "umareru" should be always passive.
Ah, pardon me, yes, I found it.
Ange indeed does say 'not son' in here. It is also very much not equivalent to what Beatrice said.
If she unambiguously refers to This Battler, this statement provides no information whatsoever on the Other Battler. It is not required to be true for any possible Battler, otherwise Nanjo Junior and a few more hundred people would have to be on Rokkenjima on this day. It may limit the gender of the Other Battler only if it refers to the Other Battler.
P.S. I still think there should be a way to deny the Other Battler completely, as it's the consequences of one existing that are the problem, not Jessica being Rudolf's daughter. :)
The Other Battler is indeed troubling, but for better or worse, one came from Asumu. And since Beatrice used it, I think it's significant. Not that it has to be damaging, though. We have the whole "trust" thing remember, and we also have the benefit of Battler usually being the detective. Most significant red texts regarding Battler have the second person in them anyways.
The reason I am pushing this towards Jessica, if anyone(remember, the second Battler could simply be dead!), is because thematically it seems to fit.
Jan-Poo - Battler is Asumu's foster son. She did raise him. So I think this has to be in terms of parenthood. Meaning that we do have to acknowledge that a second Battler exists, one that in my opinion, is most likely female. Or dead lol.
Battler CAN'T REPEAT the same sentence back because he assumes that Beatrice is using the "give birth to" context. Because of this wrong context assumption, he can't repeat the same sentence? I mean, it's plausible since we've all said before that Red is heavily dependent on context and is there to mislead us sometimes.
That would work to deny the Other Battler, because then no physical person is born from Ushiromiya Asumu named Ushiromiya Battler, and the name is exclusive, hurrah!
It's certainly possible. However, this is very, very shaky, I basically wouldn't be sure unless a native said that it can be read that way.
Hm, I can definitely see if people can ask around, or see if maybe someone can post on the 07 official BBS for me. Didn't see Jan-Poo's post nevermind hahaha
The reason I am pushing this towards Jessica, if anyone(remember, the second Battler could simply be dead!), is because thematically it seems to fit.
It's better (but wrong from the point of view of narrative structure) for the Other Battler to be dead. The Other Battler does it's damage not by being Jessica.
It does the damage by making it ambiguous whether any red that mentions Battler refer to This Battler or Other Battler -- including, in particular "Battler is not the culprit, Battler did not kill anyone", but also many other, more particular and less far-reaching reds.
As we know from Kinzotrice... anything that expands the witch's darkness gives room to horrible absurdities that are extremely hard to deny. :) And this is what the existence of the Other Battler does.
Sure, Jessica can be Rudolf+Asumu's daughter, no problem, but if she can rightfully bear the name "Ushiromiya Battler" by that, we're screwed.
Huzzah! We've proven beyond a doubt that a second Battler was born- Wait, crap. At least we managed to clear up this a bit, for better or for worse.
So, now that that's mostly settled, do you think this fella is alive? Dead? Jessica? Shannon? Gohda? Or is he a dance instructor at the YMCA who has no relevance to the story?
Oliver - It's better for us that this other Battler is dead, but how would Beatrice know about some dead child? I for one can not dismiss it as a mere trick used by the author, it has to have some significance. I found Jessica and Genji's omission in episode 6 a bit suspicious, and this may be the answer I am searching for.
I'm no japanese expert but I think the form is what clearly defines how the verb should be interpreted. "um-areru" is a passive form "um-u" is an active form. So it's not really ambiguous. the form "umareru" should be always passive.
Hm, what I'm saying exactly is that Umareru usually means "to be born" in a strict sense of coming out of the womb. But the verb Umu can also means "to produce."
My exactly theory is that Beatrice is not using a "to be born from" strict context, but a more lax "to be produced from" laid-back context. It opens up more doors and allows us to think a little more freely. Almost like "Ushiromiya Battler was produced from/came from Ushiromiya Asumu" and not "was born from" since the definition could still stick for Umareru.
So, now that that's mostly settled, do you think this fella is alive? Dead? Jessica? Shannon? Gohda? Or is he a dance instructor at the YMCA who has no relevance to the story?
If not Jessica we could get a Battler = Amakusa in a completely different context. And Renall may not have as much of a problem with it since Amakusa shouldn't know about it either. :heh:
EDIT: If we go by hints from Higurashi though the idea of "twins" or "two successors" is bad for families like the Ushiromiya family. So they might go as far as infanticide to get rid of an unnecessary heir. The Sonazaki's were reluctant to, but the Ushiromiyas might not be.
The best guess that can be made is that this "Battler Ushiromiya" was born already dead and was replaced with Kyrie's son.
But who knows... the best guess is not always to correct one. Still I'm not really fond of the idea of another Battler running around, so I'd rather have him dead.
So, now that that's mostly settled, do you think this fella is alive? Dead? Jessica? Shannon? Gohda? Or is he a dance instructor at the YMCA who has no relevance to the story?
Oliver - It's better for us that this other Battler is dead, but how would Beatrice know about some dead child? I for one can not dismiss it as a mere trick used by the author, it has to have some significance. I found Jessica and Genji's omission in episode 6 a bit suspicious, and this may be the answer I am searching for.
Which is why I believe there has to be some clever wordplay or twisted logic that prevents the Other Battler from ever having existed. :) Him existing even for a moment and not playing any role in the narrative would be very nonsensical.
But if "The Other Battler" was indeed born, but died immediately, Beatrice would know, if she knows of the baby swapping incident, because the description of this incident implies that the other baby, if one was born, actually died.
...wait a moment.
;「そして明日夢さんは戦人くんを出産したわ。@…だけれど私は流産したの。@………思ったことがあるわ。 @もし流産したのが明日夢さんで、出産したのが私だったなら。@……留弗夫さんは婚約を解消して、私と結婚 してくれたかしら？@ ……でも私は子どもを産めなかった。@だから明日夢さんが死ぬまで。@そして縁寿を 懐妊するまで、私は明日夢さんを呪ったわ、嫉妬したわ。」¥
`"Then, Asumu-san gave birth to Battler-kun.`@` ...But I had a miscarriage.`@` .........There's something I've thought about.`@` What if Asumu-san had been the one to have a miscarriage, and I had been the one to give birth?`@` ......Would Rudolf-san have broken off his engagement and married me?`@` ......But I couldn't give birth to a child.`@` So until Asumu-san died, `@`and until I got pregnant with Ange, I cursed Asumu-san, and was jealous of her."`¥
Miscarriage in English is the spontaneous end of pregnancy at a stage where the fetus is incapable of surviving, but as medicine evolves, earlier and earlier births can be saved and developed into viable babies. Something that is called "miscarriage" in English is probably still a birth if the fetus somehow survives.
But what about Japanese?
I don't know. Listen, it's fine to want the second Battler dead so as to not have him or her endanger the story, but a miscarriage? I mean, come now. This is just becoming a bit nitpicky. Being born dead seems a bit silly.
I suppose you are operating on the simultaneous pregnancy theory, in which Kyrie's baby "died" and Asumu's baby did not? (Except as we know that would be the opposite way around?)
Why don't we just assume, if we want to assume that the baby is dead, that the baby was born from Asumu, and then died a few minutes later due to complications? That's a perfectly valid way of achieving the same thing, without having to equivocate the hell out of the text.
In EP6 and in the anime she says "Stillbirth" (shizan), and I think that's the correct term.
There is a scene in episode 3 where she talks about that as well though (To Leviathan) so it's not as if this idea of Asumu having a stillborn baby first came up in episode 6.
T'would also explain why two babies are named Battler.
Asumu's baby is to be known as Battler, it ends up being dead, so Rudolf names the other one Battler.
.....Dude's a bit of a jerk.
Edit: So, if the name exists, it means the person is alive?
I don't know. Listen, it's fine to want the second Battler dead so as to not have him or her endanger the story, but a miscarriage? I mean, come now. This is just becoming a bit nitpicky. Being born dead seems a bit silly.
No, I'm wondering if it's possible to be born without being born in this manner.
Why don't we just assume, if we want to assume that the baby is dead, that the baby was born from Asumu, and then died a few minutes later due to complications? That's a perfectly valid way of achieving the same thing, without having to equivocate the hell out of the text.
We have no read saying that the Other Battler is dead. :) This is the only case of two people possibly being referred to in red by the same name that remains, as both the Zombie Kanon and Phantom Kinzo are much easier solved by having people lie about them. It's not the Other Battler's body that I have anything against, it's the name.
Kaisos Erranon
2010-06-27, 14:43
It does the damage by making it ambiguous whether any red that mentions Battler refer to This Battler or Other Battler -- including, in particular "Battler is not the culprit, Battler did not kill anyone", but also many other, more particular and less far-reaching reds.
Virgilia is the one who says those particular reds, and she uses "Battler-kun", which is how she refers to Our Battler.
Frankly, if you want my opinion, I don't think she COULD say "Ushiromiya Battler is not the culprit".
So, if the name exists, it means the person is alive?
I don't think Ryukishi would have brought up the possibility without it being resolved in some way.
No, I'm wondering if it's possible to be born without being born in this manner.
Oh no... the Macbeth theory!
Oh no... the Macbeth theory!
Actually, yes. Not like there isn't a literary precedent -- Shakespeare wouldn't even be the first or the last to pull something like this.
Oh no... the Macbeth theory!
Episode 8: The Penultimate finale for the second to last time of the Golden Witch
Bernkaselerinedelta: NO BATTLER OF WOMEN BORN CAN DEFEAT ME!
Battler: I AM NOT BORN OF WOMEN! I WAS FROM MY MOTHER'S WOMB, UNTIMELY RIPPED!
Well, it seems in regards to the VN, the clear answer is that the other Battler is dead. And yet, that hasn't been said in red.
I think episode 7 shall shed the light on this mystery, right now we're at an impasse of knowing that a Battler was born from Asumu, but not quite knowing the implications of that.
Yeah it's been brought up already in the past. But with all due respect to Shakespeare and his wonderful works that explanation is lame. Maybe it worked four hundred years ago, but today is a no no.
Plus, Battler is not asumu's son shouldn't leave that doubt...
Edit: So, if the name exists, it means the person is alive?
It means that we don't know if the person is dead, alive but somewhere else entirely, or alive and hiding in between the dwellers of Rokkenjima, even unaware of the fact that "Battler" is their proper name. This is still enough for any use of "Battler" in red to create ambiguity.
From a literary point of view, it's too late in the story for a Chekov's gun -- that "Other Battler" has to either fire right now and Be Important, or just be a trick to confuse us (and Our Battler) for the next few years that Beatrice knowingly uses as her last serious weapon.
I vote for the second, since the Other Battler never actually resolves to anything important before the story ends.
Unless Beatrice has cooked up something clever in which she is the Other Battler, so that lets her somehow bypass "I am not you." and be on the island physically to kill Our Battler in the end.
Well, as I said before, Piece Beato could very well be the other Battler. It would explain why she knew how to snare him in the manner she did, but then again, in her end of episode 4 red text, she did say "You are the only one alive", thus using the second person and kinda not having any room to sneaky by with.
And as for the story, well, right now there are 5 characters who we need to be clarified about above all else.
Rudolf and Kyrie are two, Shannon, Kanon, and Jessica would be three. All five of these characters have things about them that in light of recent revelations would be nice to be focused on.
The second Battler theory helps solve for Rudolf and Kyrie in a manner, and also helps explain the truly headaching ordeal that is Shannon, Jessica, and Kanon.
But these things are issues we'll continue to worry about, because we don't have all the pieces to the puzzle.
Well, as I said before, Piece Beato could very well be the other Battler. It would explain why she knew how to snare him in the manner she did, but then again, in her end of episode 4 red text, she did say "You are the only one alive", thus using the second person and kinda not having any room to sneaky by with.
Actually, she sort of does have a bit of wiggle room. Very shaky, and I can't say I'm particularly serious with this, but...
右代宮戦人。@今から私が、あなたを殺します。
Ushiromiya Battler. I will now...kill you.
It is possible that at this moment, Our Battler is already dead! Beatrice is referring to the Other Battler, herself, and describing her plan to commit suicide!
On the miscarriage/stillbirth thing. As Jan-Poo said, the anime changed "miscarriage" to "stillbirth" and ep6 reiterated it.
It was not a translation error, ep3 unambiguously said "miscarriage."
However, it seems that this was the author's mistake. It is very clear that Kyrie actually gave birth, but believes that her baby was born dead.
Kaisos Erranon
2010-06-27, 15:24
However, it seems that this was the author's mistake. It is very clear that Kyrie actually gave birth, but believes that her baby was born dead.
Rudolf may have switched the babies (in order to make Kyrie's biological son his heir), having then bribed the hospital staff into informing Kyrie that her child was dead...
The only question, then, is what he did with Asumu's baby.
delita-umw-
2010-06-27, 15:34
Sent the baby to Natsuhi to drop off a cliff? It'd be a good way of getting rid of Battler 2.0 if we can trust Natsuhi's push off the side story?
Rudolf may have switched the babies (in order to make Kyrie's biological son his heir), having then bribed the hospital staff into informing Kyrie that her child was dead...
The only question, then, is what he did with Asumu's baby.
Gave it to Kinzo for a dark ritual.
Seriously though, there's a few problems with Rudolf switching babies...
Rudolf's status is such that illegitimate children are not much of a problem, breaking off an engagement is not much of a problem, getting divorced is. If Kyrie and Asumu got pregnant more or less simultaneously, which is evidenced by them giving birth simultaneously, did he really complete the marriage to Asumu in secret, before he found out that Kyrie is pregnant with his child? Really?
Just which of them did he love more anyway? Were there any overriding concerns to make him marry Asumu rather than Kyrie if the difference between them learning of their pregnancies is merely days and the pregnancies are at the same stage?
Just what do we know about Asumu's family anyway? We know Kyrie is a Sumadera exile, and we actually get told quite a bit about the Sumadera, but what about Asumu?
Sent the baby to Natsuhi to drop off a cliff? It'd be a good way of getting rid of Battler 2.0 if we can trust Natsuhi's push off the side story?
Can't, unless he is capable of sending it about a year back in time. That's the whole problem with Natsuhi's extra baby really -- timing issues. :)
delita-umw-
2010-06-27, 15:54
Curse you timing issues! First you deny me my M16/Philipine sniper rifle and now Natsuhi's extra baby!? CURSE THEE!!
Question though, have we ever found out who is older between Jessica and Battler? I just checked a umineko wiki and it says Battler is a year older, but I don't trust it and from my vague novel knowledge I know they're roughly the same age but if Battler is older then I can think of one way timing issues wouldn't be so bad. What if: we can trust Natsuhi's narrative but only to a certain extent. For example, she really did receive a child from Rudolph but not in the timing that she describes. Furthermore the real reason she killed the child was because she found out she was pregnant with Jessica. Other Battler problem solved?
Can't, unless he is capable of sending it about a year back in time. That's the whole problem with Natsuhi's extra baby really -- timing issues. :)
There is nothing saying Battler wasn't born 19 years ago either you know. That's why the person himself can make a theory saying that he was that person. As long he's born on the same day anyway the year doesn't really matter.
Question though, have we ever found out who is older between Jessica and Battler? I just checked a umineko wiki and it says Battler is a year older, but I don't trust it and from my vague novel knowledge I know they're roughly the same age but if Battler is older then I can think of one way timing issues wouldn't be so bad. What if: we can trust Natsuhi's narrative but only to a certain extent. For example, she really did receive a child from Rudolph but not in the timing that she describes. Furthermore the real reason she killed the child was because she found out she was pregnant with Jessica. Other Battler problem solved?
They changed the age on the wiki to fit with the theory that Battler is the 19 year old master of the island. He's stated to be the same age as Jessica though.
Question though, have we ever found out who is older between Jessica and Battler?
No, we didn't. It is possible that Battler is older, it is just as possible that he is a bit younger.
What if: we can trust Natsuhi's narrative but only to a certain extent. For example, she really did receive a child from Rudolph but not in the timing that she describes. Furthermore the real reason she killed the child was because she found out she was pregnant with Jessica. Other Battler problem solved?
Battler and Jessica are both 18 years old. The baby is supposedly from "19" years ago. So is Rosa's story about Beatrice-2. For Natsuhi's baby to be completely factual and the Other Battler to be that baby, Our Battler has to be almost a year older than his stated age, because of all people, his birthday is precisely known. It is sort of possible for Natsuhi to become pregnant with Jessica at the time.
It all looks similar but still doesn't correctly fit together.
There is nothing saying Battler wasn't born 19 years ago either you know. That's why the person himself can make a theory saying that he was that person. As long he's born on the same day anyway the year doesn't really matter.
There is a statement that Battler is 18 years old that he does not correct or contradict, if my memory serves me right.
delita-umw-
2010-06-27, 16:12
Wait, we know exactly when Battler's birthday is?
Wait, we know exactly when Battler's birthday is?
He's the only one who's birthday is ever given exactly. 15th of July. See 07151129 and related discussion in the text.
They changed the age on the wiki to fit with the theory that Battler is the 19 year old master of the island. He's stated to be the same age as Jessica though.
I changed it back. It is absolutely not a fact that Battler is 19 years old. In fact there's a big chance that Kanon and Shannon were talking about Beatrice and not Battler.
Until we have a clear confirmation, Battler's age in the wiki must remain 18
There is a statement that Battler is 18 years old that he does not correct or contradict, if my memory serves me right.
Piece Battler can say he's 18 and not know he's really 19 as long as he's not told otherwise. Just like he can say 'Rosa keeps her promises' when she really doesn't.
delita-umw-
2010-06-27, 16:21
That'd work if there was noone else in the family. For what reason would Rosa or any other Ushiromiya acknowledge that somehow Battler is 18 when he was born a year before?
Yeah, Jessica and Battler were born under the "same unlucky star." So Battler's age should be 18, but the popular opinion is that he's the counterpart to Natsuhi's adopted baby, who is 19.
The child that Natsuhi had may not even be the second Battler, if he or she does indeed live.
Do note that Natsuhi's story about the adopted child is very odd in many ways. It contradicts Rosa's account(and while Rosa may not be the most trustworthy of all people, Beato made it a point to show Battler Rosa's account), in addition to have been perhaps tempered by grief.
Although, I propose the following: Simply put, if the child that Natsuhi adopted is anyone of importance, it would be Piece Beatrice. After all, the master of the island is stated to be 19.
Piece Battler can say he's 18 and not know he's really 19 as long as he's not told otherwise. Just like he can say 'Rosa keeps her promises' when she really doesn't.
Well, he can, but then Jessica is a year younger and can't be the Other Battler, unless her age is fake too. :)
Well, he can, but then Jessica is a year younger and can't be the Other Battler, unless her age is fake too. :)
We also have theories that Kanon is 19 which would make Jessica 21. So that's kind of trivial anyway. We can add on more or less on different people depending on how you go about making the theories.
What is this, Final Fantasy 8? I don't quite think Battler and Jessica would be in the dark about one year of their lives, let alone 4!
Kanon, Shannon, now their age can be dubious because of their wacky nature as furniture, which is zany. But I think we can be sure on Battler and Jessica's age. I at least hope we can be sure on that...
Apparently in addition to closets, Ushiromiyas have a genetic predisposition to never look at birth certificates or the family register.
We also have theories that Kanon is 19 which would make Jessica 21.
21, in high school?... That would inevitably get noticed. :)
I changed it back. It is absolutely not a fact that Battler is 19 years old. In fact there's a big chance that Kanon and Shannon were talking about Beatrice and not Battler.
Until we have a clear confirmation, Battler's age in the wiki must remain 18
It still says 19 for me. Are you sure you changed it? I wanted to do that too for the same reason, but I can't figure out how to edit that part.
21, in high school?... That would inevitably get noticed. :)
You never know she could be NEET. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEET)
It's not a popular theory anyway. :heh: I thought you said you could see her being a little older though because of some issues with George's age in your timeline or something?
It's not a popular theory anyway. :heh: I thought you said you could see her being a little older though because of some issues with George's age in your timeline or something?
Sort of. I forgot why exactly I wrote that, though.
Mind you, Natsuhi's story, if my memory serves me right (meh, Umineko is starting to exceed my cache size) says that she got pregnant with Jessica after the baby incident pretty clearly.
Leafsnail
2010-06-27, 17:01
Battler is secretly a transexual, and is therefore Asumu's daughter!
Oh, wait.
Well now we've moved from And Then There Were None to Rocky Horror Picture Show.
Funny thing, the phone didn't work there either...
Well now we've moved from And Then There Were None to Rocky Horror Picture Show.
Funny thing, the phone didn't work there either...
I think we've been there all the way since Nanjotrice and Nanjo-Gaap were proposed.
It still says 19 for me. Are you sure you changed it? I wanted to do that too for the same reason, but I can't figure out how to edit that part.
Really? It works okay for me... try looking at the history you should see that I did some changes...
I'm actually doing a lot of clean up since I'm at it... it's incredible how many no-lifers find amusing to insert their pet theories into a wiki article. Luckily most of those are removed by other people.
I came across with some dubious statements... like this one:
Voyagers are said to become Creators at the ends of their journeys, which they fear for unknown reasons.
I have absolutely no knowledge of this... does it come from some extra TIP?
Really? It works okay for me... try looking at the history you should see that I did some changes...
I'm actually doing a lot of clean up since I'm at it... it's incredible how many no-lifers find amusing to insert their pet theories into a wiki article. Luckily most of those are removed by other people.
The Umineko wikia (http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Battler_Ushiromiya) still says 19. I saw your change for the wikipedia.org entry though.
I have absolutely no knowledge of this... does it come from some extra TIP?
That TIPS is from EP4's TIPS, "Regarding Creators" The English version reads, at the end:
"Voyagers are frightened that the ends of their own journeys mean becoming a Creator. As to why they would be frightened of advancing to become a higher-order being, none can understand except they themselves."
Ah all right I must have missed that.
And I'm just adjusting the wiki, not the wikia, sorry. I don't really like the wikia network to be honest...
I don't quite like the whole idea of working for free for people that make a lot of money with overly disturbing ads
Ah all right I must have missed that.
And I'm just adjusting the wiki, not the wikia, sorry. I don't really like the wikia network to be honest...
I don't quite like the whole idea of working for free for people that make a lot of money with overly disturbing ads
Yah.. Wikia is a minefield of wonderful information:
"In Dawn, it is revealed that Battler was born from his "step-mother" Kyrie but somehow he was given to Asumu."
Errr....
Or how about Erika:
"After the true nature of her fate is brought to light (she did wash up onto Rokkenjima, but she was dead, having drowned in the ocean), she fades from existence and is ultimately removed from the story."
WTF?! Maybe that's the source of mis-information. 8)
Sadly the same things were reported on the wiki... for a certain time...
Zepar (ゼパル Zeparu?)
The 16th highest ranking earl of hell, named after the demon of the same name. Despite having the appearance of a girl with long, light-blue hair and a darkly-colored dress, Zepar is suggested to be male due to his use of a masculine speech pattern, and the fact that he is of the opposite gender of his equally feminine twin Furfur. He appears alongside Furfur when summoned by those who seek romance, and has the power to seduce humans. He can also grant unlimited defensive power and even brief immortality to those who contract them.
Furfur (フルフル Furufuru?)
The 34th highest ranking earl of hell, named after the demon of the same name, and Zepar's twin. Given the circumstances of the twins' gender, Furfur is suggested to be female since it is stated in the TIPS that she is of the opposite gender of the ambiguously male Zepar. She has mid-length, red hair and wears a brightly-colored dress. She always appears in unison with Zepar when summoned, and has the power to cultivate emotions. She can also grant an inexhaustible offensive power to those who contract them.
What do you guy think about this?
It's true that Zepar is the one who uses "boku", I don't remember Furfur using it, but she does use it when they both talk at the same time. Plus "boku" while generally it's used by males it's not as manly as "ore" and sometimes even tomboyish girls are seen using it in anime and manga.
Can we really say that as a matter of fact Zepar is the male and Furfur is the female? Or that it's even suggested it's so?
P.S. I still think there should be a way to deny the Other Battler completely, as it's the consequences of one existing that are the problem, not Jessica being Rudolf's daughter. :)
Abstract.
Can the Knox rules forbid the detective from fabricating hints to satisfy Knox 8th?
EDIT: And not so abstract. In Ep5, the following is said when Erika is introduced:
Bernkastel: "I proclaim that Furudo Erika is the detective. The detective is not the culprit. No proof is needed to show this."
Lambda: "There was an exception clause in the original, but for this game the detective isn't the culprit has been proclaimed in red, so you don't need to consider the exception."
Now wait a minute.
I have so far failed to find a variant of Knox rules which would provide any exception to Knox 7th. What exception clause are they talking about?
Do they really mean to say that Knox 7th applies to this game only? Really?...
EDIT EDIT: Aha! Found the true original (http://gadetection.pbworks.com/Ronald-Knox's-Ten-Commandments-for-Detective-Fiction).
I wonder, did anything of the sort happen in Ep1-4?... That is, did anyone dress up as Battler?
I just thought of something. if you assume both Asumu and Kyrie had still borns (bit unlikely, but bear with me) and you have no problem with Battler not being qualified to be Beato's opponent there is a way for that name to not be exclusive.
Basically The "Battler" we know had a different name before he "reentered" the Ushiromiya register therefore his name is not exclusive.
You could make him into a culprit this way. I'd like to say though he does have a chance to be "the culprit" behind the fake first twilights and not be involved in killing anyone. You could also say that if he's the culprit the only people giving him an alibi are the cousins and for them to murder people in the first twilight they have to slip by Battler anyway so it's not that out there for him to do the same.
It's true that Zepar is the one who uses "boku", I don't remember Furfur using it, but she does use it when they both talk at the same time. Plus "boku" while generally it's used by males it's not as manly as "ore" and sometimes even tomboyish girls are seen using it in anime and manga.
Can we really say that as a matter of fact Zepar is the male and Furfur is the female? Or that it's even suggested it's so?
I wouldn't bring it up unless you could bring up the theory that Furfur== 34 == Sayo and Zepar == 16 == Yoshiya. Which, I don't think would be appropriate for wikipedia. Wikia, though... but only in a side paragraph.
I can't remember what Furfur used, but I would say there was absolutely no suggestion whatsoever as to their genders and whoever wants to correct that needs to add a citation.
What do you guy think about this?
It's true that Zepar is the one who uses "boku", I don't remember Furfur using it, but she does use it when they both talk at the same time. Plus "boku" while generally it's used by males it's not as manly as "ore" and sometimes even tomboyish girls are seen using it in anime and manga.
Can we really say that as a matter of fact Zepar is the male and Furfur is the female? Or that it's even suggested it's so?I think it's clearly intended to be as ambiguous as possible. Therefore, I don't think it's ever "safe" to assign which one of them is the male and which one is the female.
Basically The "Battler" we know had a different name before he "reentered" the Ushiromiya register therefore his name is not exclusive.
That would create a third Battler, though, wouldn't it?
I'm finding the whole 'sit in a room with cousins and play cards' rather dubious, mind you. You just met people you haven't seen for six years. You're not going to exhaust the stories accumulated in this manner for days. But assume you're tired of talking and need a change of pace.
Then you sit and ...play cards? What? Not go out to ransack the grandfather's library, or show off photos from six years worth, or play a prank on the butler, none of the LOT of interesting things I can think of doing in an old household with decades of accumulated trash in every hole (and don't forget the skeletons in the closets you could search for to shake their hands and say 'hi') - none of these.
You just sit and play cards.
Literary characters can do that, sometimes, if the plot wallops them over the head with a pillow. Real teenagers? I don't think so.
What the hell?! XD
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Umineko_no_Naku_Koro_ni_ch aracters&action=history
How does a bot decides that I'm a vandal? meh...
What the hell?! XD
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Umineko_no_Naku_Koro_ni_ch aracters&action=history
How does a bot decides that I'm a vandal? meh...
Cluebot apparently didn't like your edit because you used the word 'sex' in it. 8) I reported it as a false positive...
I was about to change it to the more correct "gender" (although some believe that "gender" is psychological and "sex" is physical), but couldn't because the bot reverted it back. Let's see if I can adjust it now...
I was about to change it to the more correct "gender" (although some believe that "gender" is psychological and "sex" is physical), but couldn't because the bot reverted it back. Let's see if I can adjust it now...That's not really a "some believe" thing. Sex is a biological characteristic and gender is a social construct. So you were right, Wikipedia is just... like that.
Random.
End of Ep3, Evatrice's puzzle which we have just mentioned yesterday.
Beatrice: "Starting now, I will deny witches in red. I will slice up the game board that she has laid out with her red. ...By doing that, ...I will probably lose my form as a witch as well. ...If you also hear the red truth I will tell, you will understand my true form."
Which means that there exists a red statement or a reasonably short set of red statements that will explain how Nanjo died, and which will also expose who Beatrice is, assuming Evatrice is a distinct culprit not equivalent to Beatrice. Otherwise, Beatrice's statement cannot be true -- it's not red, of course, but let's assume for a moment that it's true anyway.
Using the idea that a time lag exists between the red certifying everyone's death and the moment Nanjo is dead solves the problem by explaining how could someone kill Nanjo -- by dying between killing Nanjo and being declared dead in red together with everyone. However, this gives no leads whatsoever on Beatrice's true form, so if Beatrice's statement to Battler is true, that's probably not it.
Are any other solutions of Evatrice's wall of red possible? Alternatively, if the time lag idea is correct, is there a way it could expose Beatrice anyway?
I guess chronotrig would point out that since personalities can be killed then simply Kanon and Shannon dying does not prove that the host body did as well. This of course would have strong implications with Beatrice's true nature.
However Beatrice should have stopped her killing spree since the epitaph was solved.... unless Evatrice is just another fake personality created by Sayo who took over.
However Beatrice should have stopped her killing spree since the epitaph was solved.... unless Evatrice is just another fake personality created by Sayo who took over.
I'd have to call a variation of Clarke's Law on that. "Any sufficiently advanced psychosis is indistinguishable from magic." Same as with "I wouldn't put it past Kinzo", actually.
No, it should be something relatively simple, but highly inobvious, like a method to resolve the contradiction so that none of the survivors killed Nanjo directly or indirectly, but somehow they managed to do it anyway.
That option shouldn't be possible... the red is very clear about that...
Of course one of my earliest theory was that:
The real Nanjo was killed before the start of the game. The Nanjo in Rokkenjima is an impostor.
this however doesn't have any tie with Beatrice. Unless the impostor is Beatrice...
That option shouldn't be possible... the red is very clear about that...
If you just accept it's not possible, then it simply isn't a puzzle -- puzzle starts by observing a contradiction. :) In fact, any engineering invention problem also starts by locating a contradiction, and the solution is in finding some way in which the contradiction doesn't actually stop you.
Of course one of my earliest theory was that: The real Nanjo was killed before the start of the game. The Nanjo in Rokkenjima is an impostor.
this however doesn't have any tie with Beatrice. Unless the impostor is Beatrice...
That, actually, sort of works, in a Pony Theory sense, but the practicality of getting disguised as Nanjo is a problem as usual, and more importantly, it doesn't work well for other episodes, does it?
Though, one thing keeps bugging me. In the scene when the gun accidentally discharges, Nanjo is said to be between Jessica and Eva. To actually get a cornea burn, you need to be within 5-7cm from the muzzle.
How is it possible to point a short Winchester in such a way that Jessica can get those and not blow her or Nanjo's head open?...
Smeckledorf
2010-06-27, 21:11
I agree, I think the end of episode 3 was a big hint to Nanjo being an impostor.
Also, third Battler? There are/were two but I don't know about three.
There's the fact that Battler has never seen Nanjo before. So you don't even need a disguise.
The problem is... why would everyone else lie about Nanjo's identity?
If I am allowed to go on wild speculations... I could imagine the Nanjo everyone saw is just an impostor payed by Natsuhi and Krauss to back up their plan.
Of course you can't deny that a real Nanjo exists and that he was Kinzo's friend and all since it's confirmed by the 1998 perspective. But maybe this Nanjo doctor could only go as far as to keep silent about that, and refused to be directly involved in such a cover up.
For what we know it is possible that no one outside of the "Kinzo is still alive circle" has ever seen Nanjo before 1985. After all Battler doesn't remember him from previous family meetings.
imaginari
2010-06-27, 21:34
However Beatrice should have stopped her killing spree since the epitaph was solved.... unless Evatrice is just another fake personality created by Sayo who took over.
It's possible that the killer didn't learn about the epitaph being solved in that episode. Eva and Rosa agreed not to tell anyone, and Rosa died.
There's the fact that Battler has never seen Nanjo before. So you don't even need a disguise.
The problem is... why would everyone else lie about Nanjo's identity?True, and worse, the character most people assume is running around disguising is a female. It's marginally plausible to believe some other fat old guy is disguised as Nanjo, but a woman?
That would create a third Battler, though, wouldn't it?
No I don't see why it has to. If he's not the real Battler anyway. It's really just an extension of the antimystery theory I'm working on.
By the way... I'm not sure where to put this so I thought I'd just put it in the least-touched thread for now.. but..
I was going over the EP6 end roll ( replicated here: http://umineco.info/?%E7%AC%AC%E5%85%AD%E8%A9%B1%E3%82%A8%E3%83%B3%E3% 83%89%E3%83%AD%E3%83%BC%E3%83%AB%E6%96%87%E7%AB%A0 )
And I noticed besides the victims of the first twilight which includes Battler, Kanon is listed as having died in the 2nd twilight. Both Shannon and Jessica are listed as still alive at the pause of the game... so, if the 2nd twilight is supposed to have been the tearing apart of the two who were close, who is Kanon supposed to be close with?
I wouldn't say Erika as I don't want to killed by the hordes of fangirls she's not listed as either dead or alive... and it can't be Battler as that's exactly what some people would want he's already listed as dead.
Ok, it was a rather irregular game and it was interrupted... but I wonder if there was even a plan for a second victim?
There wasn't a second victim in episode 5 so that's at least consistent.
It seems like the people who died in the second twilights mirrors games 1 and 2 though at least for one of the victims. I guess the culprit of the Chiru games had a different interpretation for "tearing apart the two who are close". Or maybe he just didn't want to kill two people for some reason.
This suggests the culprit is following the epitaph begrudgingly and is cutting corners.
Smeckledorf
2010-06-28, 01:36
And I noticed besides the victims of the first twilight which includes Battler, Kanon is listed as having died in the 2nd twilight. Both Shannon and Jessica are listed as still alive at the pause of the game... so, if the 2nd twilight is supposed to have been the tearing apart of the two who were close, who is Kanon supposed to be close with?
I wouldn't say Erika as I don't want to killed by the hordes of fangirls she's not listed as either dead or alive... and it can't be Battler as that's exactly what some people would want he's already listed as dead.
Ok, it was a rather irregular game and it was interrupted... but I wonder if there was even a plan for a second victim?
If Kanon is a personality of a person then he was torn apart from the person. I would say my personality and I were close.
You are right, Judoh. But the answer is quite obvious, if one person dies and there was a person close to him/her then they would be 'torn apart'.
Anyways, if Nanjo is an impostor it does not mean he has to be Beatrice. I happen to think he was killed rather recently because that means Nanjo's body could be used without it being fake and the impostor could run around killing still.
I don't see why we'd even need an impostor when nobody cares about the Doctor anyway. They stow him away on the third floor like he's not even wanted. It's an old theory anyway and it's really not all that necessary even for the Kinzo death faction.
The second twilight for episode 7 is going to be Maria I just know it.
Smeckledorf
2010-06-28, 01:43
We don't need an impostor. We are giving out input on this story and what might possibly be a solution.
Maria has already been killed during a second twilight, I believe. Episode 3 wasn't it? Oh never mind, you are saying it will be a mirror of episode 3.
There wasn't a second victim in episode 5 so that's at least consistent.
It seems like the people who died in the second twilights mirrors games 1 and 2 though at least for one of the victims. I guess the culprit of the Chiru games had a different interpretation for "tearing apart the two who are close". Or maybe he just didn't want to kill two people for some reason.
This suggests the culprit is following the epitaph begrudgingly and is cutting corners.
Or maybe Erika's influence really messed up the flow of the game, whether she's detecting or sawing off body parts. 8)
Well, not that the end roll is part of the in-game explanation but notice that Battler was considered to be 'dead' as part of the end roll... yet we know he was really walking around, setting traps, removing chains... It's not the same as being declared dead in red, but it seems like the Witches' End Roll is really about them being picked to fake their deaths. What happens to them afterwards is not part of the end roll... so their ACTUAL death just sometimes coincides with their fake deaths...
In other words, someone has (maybe yet another separate) plan to 'display' all of the twilights and it seems and this forms the end roll if it successfully occurs. Maybe. Whether people really died before or after the deciding of the twilight is irrelevant to this person/group of people.
Anyways...
Sorry to bring up yet another topic but... I just saw and remembered the ending after the credits roll by in EP6 ????. I think all of us have seen this before, one way or another but... further to our earlier discussion:
"Bernkastel picks up a black piece, the 'Beatrice' piece as it were. Sometimes a King, sometimes a Queen and sometimes a Knight. But only if it was promoted. Until then it is on the level of a Pawn, a worthless piece. Start with the arrangement of the pieces. And then from that point it is the start of the Witches' game.
And so Bernkastel takes the Beato piece... gently raises it... "Starting position. d8 Beatrice."
Umineko no naku koro ni: No one is left alive."
Anyways, doesn't this suggest that 'Beatrice' is a mere pawn, like some of us were thinking? Like more than that she is the scapegoat, and more than that the idea of her is used by people for their own ends, but we were starting to think that the person herself who was connected to Moetrice (Shannon?) is herself a pawn in all the schemes?
Smeckledorf
2010-06-28, 02:05
This is partially the problem with impostor culprit theories. Maria has a friend on the island, a human, who pretends to be Beatrice. Maybe it is not pretending but the person actually thinks the he/she is Beatrice. But there is a person on that island who assumes that identity, at least one. We combine that with Maria usually being one of the later deaths and it points to 'Beatrice' being a killer.
Now, what if the roulette corresponded with whose deaths were faked and someone else is killing the people whose deaths were faked afterward? People are supposed to be revived when the gold is found. So, I am thinking that the culprit is an asshole and 'Beatrice' is innocent. The idea of Beatrice is taking on the identity of that one gang in Higurashi IMO, so meta-Beatrice plays the part.
King, Queen, and Knight... a mastermind, a co-conspirator, and a killer/guardian? That's what I think the terms mean, I am less sure about the Queen part. Pawn seems hard to misinterpret. King might also mean head of the family.
I am confused by what Battler thinks of 'the truth' he knows what is happening but he honors his promise to Beatrice rather than showing the killer for who he/she really is. There is no doubt that there is a killer and the person has murdered a big chunk of Battler's family. Episode 6 looks like a big cover up for the culprit. To me, it just seems like Battler is covering for the culprit, why would he do that?
King, Queen, and Knight... a mastermind, a co-conspirator, and a killer/guardian? That's what I think the terms mean, I am less sure about the Queen part. Pawn seems hard to misinterpret. King might also mean head of the family.
I know Battler and Maria have been described as the king sometimes as well. Battler as the king of the white side, but king of the black side in EP6. It seems when they're both kings they have little power on their own but instead the whole game revolves around them.
Although in real chess the King can kill if you get too close. I just had an image of Maria biting whoever comes close to her... (like pervert-Battler.) :heh:
I am confused by what Battler thinks of 'the truth' he knows what is happening but he honors his promise to Beatrice rather than showing the killer for who he/she really is. There is no doubt that there is a killer and the person has murdered a big chunk of Battler's family. Episode 6 looks like a big cover up for the culprit. To me, it just seems like Battler is covering for the culprit, why would he do that?
Well, Moetrice was willing to reveal that Kanon was the one who rescued Battler while Battler asked her if that was really an okay thing to do. It seems like he knew this answer all along (shades of the Genius Battler theory) but didn't want to use it. "The human side would be screaming that it's unfair" or something like that, he said.
So I thought that Kanon had something to do with Beatrice, and this was one of the biggest secrets and can lead to 'The Truth.' And now that I think about it maybe we're mired in the Mystery-style 'How' of how Kanon can do the things he can do, but if we think more about what it means and we stumble upon the Truth, we can use that to unlock the Mystery.
It could be that the Truth that Battler reached in EP5 had something to do with Kanon directly, but... maybe the better percentage is that it was something else and the funny going-ons with Shannon, Kanon and Battler, etc were all obvious consequences once you know it...
It could be that the Truth that Battler reached in EP5 had something to do with Kanon directly, but... maybe the better percentage is that it was something else and the funny going-ons with Shannon, Kanon and Battler, etc were all obvious consequences once you know it...
Kanon still has that chance to be that flat-chested loli with long black hair.
Smeckledorf
2010-06-28, 02:58
I once thought Kanon had a twin on the island, but that's a crazy thought.
I meant that question in a different way, though. Let me use a bit of an exaggeration.
"Hey, I murdered your family. Do you mind covering for me, Broseph?" - Culprit
"No problem, Abroham Lincoln." - Battler
Even without an exaggeration, it makes no sense. I can see why Battler would forgive an orchestration of people faking their deaths but not their actual murders.
Battler is more of a jester than a king, and I don't know about Maria as a king either. However, Kanon's unusual movements definitely make him a knight. I think I made a mistake on my take of the pieces.
The King would be a mastermind if you thought about what a King literally is. However, a King in chess is the most valuable piece but relatively weak. The queen is literally a consort to the King, sorry if it sounds sexist. But in chess a Queen is the most powerful piece and second most valuable. A Knight is literally a guardian and in chess it would be a unique piece.
ameskitty
2010-06-28, 03:06
Kanon still has that chance to be that flat-chested loli with long black hair.
I've had a strange gut feeling that he's the target of a good part of the murders for quite some time now. That would also explain a lot of the paralells he seems to share with Bernkastel. (most notably the comparisons to a cat)
It's coming up with reasons why that would be the case that has been bit more difficult. (I do have one in mind, but I'll probably have to post it another day as it's getting late and it'll take a while for me to write all of it out).
Smeckledorf
2010-06-28, 03:13
I was thinking about Battler as a king and episode 6. The deaths have to be faked for a reason... to have someone find the gold? I am not sure but we know who the last target always seemed to be. (Battler) Now, what would making Battler think people are dying do? Punish him for leaving the family? I don't know.
Now with episode 5 and 6, we have people in the same room as Battler faking their deaths and Battler himself faking his death. Could it be that he is getting people to fake their deaths? Battler has a lot of opportunities to set some of the letters. Something about that feels wrong. But yet it clicks with what episode 6's difficulty says. I think what feels wrong is that Battler would know the trick to the closed rooms. Any other thoughts?
I've had a strange gut feeling that he's the target of a good part of the murders for quite some time now. That would also explain a lot of the paralells he seems to share with Bernkastel. (most notably the comparisons to a cat)
Well, there are some very clear inconsistencies in things said about Kanon that Battler seems to never pick up on.
The engagement ring scene in Ep1 says that "Under the guidance of the honorary director, Kinzo, the orphanage offered excellent graduates a chance to live a life of service. If they were accepted, they would be able to leave the orphanage and work as servants for the Ushiromiya family." But there is no way that any orphanage graduates people at 6, which is when Shannon had to have started working to be working for ten years, which is referenced multiple times. In fact, no orphanage would graduate children until they're of majority age. It's a bit more fluid in Japan than in other places, due to how various legal ages are spread out, but at least 18 would expected.
At the same time, Jessica says in the same Ep1: "Everyone Grandfather selected [from Fukuin] was young, about the same age as Shannon and Kanon." But for Kanon to be selected when he's the "same age" as Shannon, he has to have been selected at 6.
The following emerge as possibilities:
Shannon and Kanon were both selected at 16, still before their graduation. Impossible, because there's too many sources mentioning Shannon has been around for ten years.
Shannon and Kanon were both selected well before their graduation at 6. That leaves the question of where has he been for eight years.
Neither Shannon nor Kanon actually were "selected", and they have no relation to Fukuin House except possibly on paper, being much more closely related to the family than anyone is willing to say.
Possibilities 2 and 3 make Kanon in particular more mysterious than Shannon because of the 8-year gap, and more likely to be connected to the murders, at least, if we leave aside the possibility of Shkanon.
Random. Timing issues.
I'm trying to recover the daily schedule for October 4th and having some problems. So far, I get something like this for what would be a normal October 4th:
??:00 -- Early morning, the Ushiromiya gather in an airport in an undisclosed location, one would expect the Tokyo International Airport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokyo_International_Airport) because it's a domestic flight.
08:00 -- They land and disembark at at Niijima Airport.
10:30 -- Boat arrives to Rokkenjima.
12:00 -- Cousins hang out in the guesthouse before getting called to lunch.
13:30 -- Lunch starts.
15:00 -- Beach picnic starts.
17:22 -- Sunset is supposed to happen around this time, though I don't know how long does it take to go completely dark. Rain also starts around this time in Ep1 but well before that time in Ep2.
??:?? -- Maria is normally found in the garden between the time the rain starts and the dinner starts.
18:00 -- Cousins get called to dinner around this time
??:?? -- Dinner actually starts.
22:00 -- Cousins loiter around the parlor after the dinner has ended.
22:00-23:00 -- George usually picks this time to give Shannon the ring if he's doing it at all.
The things I don't get...
Just how long do these people really take to eat a full course meal? An hour for lunch seems normal, but the dinner seems to take up to three hours! Even if it takes much longer than it would normally because of the Beatrice letter, why do the cousins stick around for all the extra time and don't start loitering around the parlor an hour or so earlier? They're so disgusted with their parents, one would think they would run as soon as there was nothing tasty on the table, which is right when Maria opens up the letter.
It feels like they're getting called to meal at least half an hour before it actually starts, and probably quite a bit more, which would be rather silly.
Yes, I'm overanalysing things, but some of it, in particular things related to Maria and her rose, should be quite important to how the rest of the game plays out.
EDIT: Correction. The airport they should be departing from is definitely Chofu Airport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C5%8Dfu_Airport).
delita-umw-
2010-06-28, 04:28
Mmm, two ideas Oliver
First, in reference to Kanon supposed graduation age, is there a possibility that Jessica is being really vague when she says about the same age as Kanon and Shanon? I haven't read the Japanese text, but isn't there both the possibility that when Jessica says about the same age as Kanon and Shanon she's referring to their current ages (16) or that she just means relatively young people (ages 6-14 apparently)? This of course would still raise questions as to why the hell were Shanon and Kanon selected when they were.
Second thought, that 3 hour gap with the waiting is relatively easy to explain if you think that the family is working under the impression that Kinzo is still alive? I mean, Krauss has to keep up appearances and so would at least pretend to wait for the "head" of the family before starting dinner. Considering Kinzo's influence and for appearances sake, at least some of that time could be eaten up by waiting for the phantom head. I don't know how long that would really be but if they wait an hour and eat a really slow dinner with lots of talking over 2 hours, we can sort of explain the time discrepancy?
edit: holy crap I just realized that the difference between getting called and them starting to loiter is about 4 hours. That's epic length and I'm not so sure anymore that the idea still has weight.
First, in reference to Kanon supposed graduation age, is there a possibility that Jessica is being really vague when she says about the same age as Kanon and Shanon?
This is covered by possibility 3 - everyone else (Runon, Manon, Reion) were selected at 16 as part of their graduation (which mysteriously ends as they graduate middle school but is not THAT much of a stretch) while Shannon and Kanon were acquired by a method not related to any other Fukuin graduates, whether they are from Fukuin originally or not. This way Jessica's statement starts making some sense, but raises a question of what the heck Shannon and Kanon really are.
Second thought, that 3 hour gap with the waiting is relatively easy to explain if you think that the family is working under the impression that Kinzo is still alive? I mean, Krauss has to keep up appearances and so would at least pretend to wait for the "head" of the family before starting dinner. Considering Kinzo's influence and for appearances sake, at least some of that time could be eaten up by waiting for the phantom head. I don't know how long that would really be but if they wait an hour and eat a really slow dinner with lots of talking over 2 hours, we can sort of explain the time discrepancy?
edit: holy crap I just realized that the difference between getting called and them starting to loiter is about 4 hours. That's epic length and I'm not so sure anymore that the idea still has weight.
Actually, that sort of works, but only sort of.
With the way Kinzo is ascribed such a high status in the family, it is really impolite to start a family dinner without him when he is expected to take part in it. The only thing that falls through is that none of the cousins seem complain that the old man none of them particularly liked anyway caused them to stay hungry for what, an extra hour? Two hours?
Also, the appearance is best maintained by the following sequence:
Krauss bangs on the door for ten minutes or so as everyone waits downstairs.
Genji enters 'to take orders' and returns saying that the Master will eat in his study, end of discussion.
Once the food is carried up to the study, no question remains that he isn't coming down so there's no point waiting and everyone can start eating, tension discharged.
This can be cleaned up in under an hour, which still leaves an hour unexplained.
Smeckledorf
2010-06-28, 05:01
Has it ever been said when Kinzo died?
Also, when was the epitaph and portrait of Beatrice put up?
delita-umw-
2010-06-28, 05:03
I'll take a stab and say that the complaining could be at least muted out of the fear Kinzo that would beat the crap out of you, afterall, I wouldn't put it past Kinzo =P. I don't know how much of a hold that kind of fear still has on those who aren't in on the Kinzo phantom plot, but it has been repeated pretty often that even the adults still cringe at the memories. Still doesn't explain that extra hour though.
Maybe Krauss delays for longer than 10 minutes under the pretense of waiting for Kinzo in order to help with preparations with some plot going on in the background? Cause this 4 hour long dinner has the convenient side effect of freeing up many of the servants to do suspicious stuff without the possibility of getting caught. Afterall, all the Ushiromiya's are essentially trapped in the dining room for the entirety of the meal. As to what those actions could be, I have no clue.
Has it ever been said when Kinzo died?
Also, when was the epitaph and portrait of Beatrice put up?
When discussing the scene of the family conference of 1985 in Ep5, Battler says that Grandfather is dead at this point in time, which I interpret as Kinzo having died no later than Friday, 4th October 1985 (as he didn't die immediately before the conference).
The portrait is said to have been put up in April 1984, but no mention is made of whether the epitaph was simultaneous with it or not -- one presumes it was.
See the timeline in my sig for more details.
Maybe Krauss delays for longer than 10 minutes under the pretense of waiting for Kinzo in order to help with preparations with some plot going on in the background? Cause this 4 hour long dinner has the convenient side effect of freeing up many of the servants to do suspicious stuff without the possibility of getting caught. Afterall, all the Ushiromiya's are essentially trapped in the dining room for the entirety of the meal. As to what those actions could be, I have no clue.
Incidentally, during the dinner, at least for part of it, the dining hall contains the majority of the island population -- all the living Ushiromiyas are definitely there, Gohda oversees serving personally, Shannon and Kumasawa are doing the actual serving and apparently, Genji is also involved.
As far as I can see, only Kanon is never seen during dinner by pretty much anyone, so he has those four hours to do something fun.
In particular in Ep2, though, Shannon is supposedly serving the dinner in the VIP room to "Beatrice" during this time, and Kanon is still not seen during dinner as far as I remember.
Dlanor A. Knox
2010-06-28, 05:18
@ Oliver: This can be cleaned up in under an hour, which still leaves an hour unexplained.
Can't it be that the diner is made when the cousins are called or when everyone is present? that would also take some time to make....
Because I'm sure they would like to eat their meal when it's warm, and if they have to wait like 2 hours the food would be cold and I dont think Gohda would put his precious/hard work food in a microwave so it's all warm again :heh:
Can't it be that the diner is made when the cousins are called or when everyone is present? that would also take some time to make....
Because I'm sure they would like to eat their meal when it's warm, and if they have to wait like 2 hours the food would be cold and I dont think Gohda would put his precious/hard work food in a microwave so it's all warm again :heh:
I don't think Gohda would condone this either -- I don't think he believes in using a microwave at all for that matter. :) But the practical way to do this would be like this:
Gohda completes those operations that take a long time -- makes the sauce, prepares the steak for whatever he's doing with it, leaving only the operations that can be completed in under 30 minutes or so.
It definitely can't take longer than 10 minutes to go from the guesthouse to the mansion, so once Gohda is done with the pre-preparations, he says it's time to call everyone, giving them a generous margin of being late, finding the right place to sit according to rank, etc. Simultaneously, Gohda starts on the last phases of cooking.
By the time everyone is there and have eaten their hours d'oeuvres, it's time to serve soup and it's just done.
I.e. it makes no sense to call people to the table in such a way that they would have to wait an hour at the table, which is what makes the extra wait more dubious.
In Ep1, at 18:00, cousins are hanging out in the guesthouse, and Kanon comes to fetch them. This would be precisely the right time to fetch them if the expected time for the dinner to start would be 18:30. This would also be the perfect moment for Krauss to start banging on the door.
Even assuming that the cousins are late because of being held up by Maria in the garden, they can't be held up for more than half an hour, so the dinner has to start no later than 19:00 -- but then, nobody comments that the cousins are late, there's no reason why Kanon is so early to fetch them, and the text actually feels like they aren't late in the end anyway. This sort of settles the dinner length to one and a half hours, extra half hour for talking about the Beatrice Letter and the cousins running away right before 22:00, which feels about right.
But it still leaves me puzzled at why the time of dinner in such a rigidly regulated, almost Victorian household is not well fixed. :)
Dlanor A. Knox
2010-06-28, 05:53
I've found something about Victorian diner time's of the upperclass and the noble's 0.0
I dunno if it helps or anything but you'll never know:
1730 & '40: diner time at 3 or 4 in the afternoon.
1770: Diner time at 4 or 5.
1790: Dinner at perhaps five or six p.m. Then it was “afternoon” until evening came with supper, sometime between nine p.m. and two a.m.
1800: diner at 6 or 7
1840: diner at 8 or 9
If you look at this you would say they have about the same diner time as the Victorian people in 1790 ^^;;
delita-umw-
2010-06-28, 05:55
According to your explanation Oliver I'm a little confused. Say they start eating at 19:00 and eat for an hour and a half plus spend 30 mins on talking about that letter, we get 19+2=21 for 21:00. Where does that extra hour between the talking and running away to the guesthouse go? Gah, the more I try to think of logical explanations for why dinner would take 4 hours long, the less sense I make of it cause 4 hours just seems too long.
Smeckledorf
2010-06-28, 06:06
I have a line of logic I would like to run through here.
Battler makes some sort of cheesy promise to return to Shanon. However, he does not and Shanon falls in love with George. Because of her love for George, she can no longer love Battler thus Beatrice is born. During sometime in her employment, Shanon found out where the gold hidden. Years later, Battler returns to a family conference and knowing this Shanon planned for a special event. She planned to carry out the epitaph without actually sacrificing people. Shanon only planned to drug people to be in an unconscious, dead-like state. She also had planted a bomb that is set to explode at at midnight on the second day of the family conference. The person Shanon wants to discover the gold is in fact Battler. The reasoning for this is the rewards in the epitaph for discovering the gold. 1 - All of the gold, duh. 2 - Resurrection of all the dead, no one was supposed to die so they should come back. 3 and 4 - And this is the key, resurrection of the lost love and the witch will be put to sleep forever. Shanon would once again love Battler and there will be no need for Beatrice anymore. The 4th reward could also be linked to the disarming of the bomb.
However, things go awry and someone starts murdering the twilight sacrifices. I still can't think of a motive for someone to do that but that's what I got so far.
IIf you look at this you would say they have about the same diner time as the Victorian people in 1790 ^^;;
They also had supper, which came much later and which Ushiromiya seem to pass on completely. :) I hate the way the words "lunch", "dinner" and "supper" get confused among the English-speaking cultures... But I still think the day in the Ushiromiya household would be strictly on the clock, whichever schedule they pick in the end.
Mind you, I don't think the times you found are directly applicable, because of the wacky Japanese Standard Time, shifted and distorted compared to how the rest of the world prefers to measure their day. People waking up around 05:00 is perfectly normal in Japan, because the time zone is set up so that 18:00 is when it's definitely already dark.
According to your explanation Oliver I'm a little confused. Say they start eating at 19:00 and eat for an hour and a half plus spend 30 mins on talking about that letter, we get 19+2=21 for 21:00. Where does that extra hour between the talking and running away to the guesthouse go? Gah, the more I try to think of logical explanations for why dinner would take 4 hours long, the less sense I make of it cause 4 hours just seems too long.
That's the whole problem. :) Suppose we assume 1:30 for the dinner and 30 minutes for the letter, which would feel about right.
That means that there is still an hour long hole either before or after dinner -- either the cousins run away a whole hour later, watching Maria get interrogated the whole time when they instantly ran away from Rosa chewing her out or they actually start eating at 20:00, which wouldn't feel too odd if Kanon didn't come to fetch them at 18:00+X where X as seen in the text is definitely under 30 minutes!
Alternatively, the dinner from the moment everyone is seated to the moment the cousins run away takes 3:30, which feels pretty much ridiculous.
delita-umw-
2010-06-28, 06:14
I've been toying with a similar line of thought. The one part where we really diverge though is at the bombing cause I just don't see a reason for it. She wants to have Battler love her again so she plans on really killing everyone if he doesn't find the gold?
As for motive, I can see either George out of jealousy or the fake deaths enabling other parties to carry out their own murder plans/impulses. Which is somewhat unrealistic unfortunately.
I have a line of logic I would like to run through here.
This is currently one of the dominant ideas, but multiple variants are possible, because multiple possible Beatrice identities fit it. In particular, most Shkanontrice, Shannontrice and Jessitrice-based theories all work with this or a very similar pattern.
Which to pick is still an open question and recently, the base of this pattern is getting doubted, see the last 3000-4000 postings or so for multiple incidents.
Smeckledorf
2010-06-28, 06:21
Well, first off the bombing is of a person not in their right mind. The kind of person who has to create multiple personalities to cope with reality.
Second, I do not look up Umineko stuff on the web. I post here and look at the wikia/wikipedia from time to time. So, if someone else has made the exact same connections as I have then good for them.
If I had to go with one to pick, even though Shkanontrice is mundane I would say that. Shanon already has two personalities at least, who says she can't fit one more up in that head of hers. Also, it would explain why the person who wrote the letter using Maria's name knew that there may or may not be a body.
Kanon kind of fits the build, too. Battler cannot be together with Shanon, Battler would love someone who looks like Beatrice, and Battler would never date a person like Kanon. So, in a fit of jealousy because Shanon and Beatrice decided to give Battler a chance, Kanon tries to ruin the ceremony.
Dlanor A. Knox
2010-06-28, 06:22
Maybe I should move to Japan (Always wakes up arround 4/5 am) :heh:
But the cousins may not walk straight to the mansion, knowing Jessica&Battler, they will quarrel arround and George will just stand from a distance with a smile on his face and with Kanon next to him sighing..
Or something like that ^^;;
But the cousins may not walk straight to the mansion, knowing Jessica&Battler, they will quarrel arround and George will just stand from a distance with a smile on his face and with Kanon next to him sighing..
Or something like that ^^;;
...under the rain? :)
Dlanor A. Knox
2010-06-28, 06:27
They've got umberella's (did I spell it right 0.0?) with them right?
Because they also had umberella's with them when they went to Maria in the rain...
delita-umw-
2010-06-28, 06:27
Now, I could be completely making this up but I've heard that sometimes dinners in Europe last longer than say an American dinner. So maybe an hour and a half can be stretched out further if the Ushiromiya's eat in such a manner. But is it really possible to extend a dinner to two and a half hours?
edit: even with umbrellas I'm not too sure anyone would really wanna stay outside in that kind of weather for too long.
Smeckledorf
2010-06-28, 06:27
Maybe not under the rain but perhaps they try to avoid the rain or fetch umbrellas. Also, cooking for 18 people takes quite a while.
Dlanor A. Knox
2010-06-28, 06:32
I dont know how long an American Dinner takes.
But here in The Netherlands Dinner takes from 30 min to an hour and when we are with the whole family, whe mostly stay chatting after dinner and play games and sort. ^^
Now, I could be completely making this up but I've heard that sometimes dinners in Europe last longer than say an American dinner. So maybe an hour and a half can be stretched out further if the Ushiromiya's eat in such a manner. But is it really possible to extend a dinner to two and a half hours?
I honestly doubt it. I'm nowhere as refined as these people, probably, but I find it doubtful you can make Maria sit still for that long without a TV. :)
Maybe not under the rain but perhaps they try to avoid the run or fetch umbrellas.
According to the text, umbrellas are available close by in both the guesthouse and the mansion, (and living on an island like that, I would expect both would be overstocked in umbrellas after someone gets sufficiently annoyed at noticing that all the umbrellas are in one of the two places). So they definitely can't delay them.
Also... it takes me 7 minutes to walk 500m - I know that exactly, because that pathway was once a runner's track and was marked up with distances. Assuming they walk two times slower than me, it would be 15 minutes. It's 2km to Kuwadorian on the other side of the island. Is the mansion really so far from the guesthouse that a slow walk is longer than 20 minutes?...
Also, cooking for 18 people takes quite a while.
Granted, it does, but that's all the more reason to start well in advance.
I think that IF we look at the lenght of dinner times in europe, we should look at Italy.
Probaly....Maybe....
They are eating French style though. :)
Dlanor A. Knox
2010-06-28, 06:47
Well the french people eat at 7pm till 11pm
But now I think about it, since the Ushiromiya's are all luxery the would have:
1:apretizer
2:another dish (dont know the name in english)
3: head court
4: Dessert
And the Supper ofcourse....
...
THAT'S ALOT!! *jealous*
But now I think about it, since the Ushiromiya's are all luxery the would have:
1:apretizer
2:another dish (dont know the name in english)
3: head court
4: Dessert
And the Supper ofcourse....
...
THAT'S ALOT!! *jealous*
To be more specific, in Ep5, when Erika is present, a bit more details are given about what Ryukishi thinks Ushiromiya should eat like in this particular dinner, and definitely works like this:
Hors d'oeuvres are mentioned, but it is never described what they are today. The word, unfortunately, covers a lot of things, but it is clear these are not finger food, as the question of the proper forks to eat them comes up. I would expect a salad.
Soup. No details on what kind of soup.
Main course, which is clearly said to be calf steak.
Dessert, a chocolate cake.
But, it is quite definite that no other food beyond that is expected for the day, as once Maria reads her letter once the dessert is done, no further meals happen except suspected cases of tea brought into the conference.
Dlanor A. Knox
2010-06-28, 07:03
Hors d'oeuvres is french and literly means outside the main court. it's something like an apretizer, but its "lighter".
Mostly it's something like cheese, sausage etc.
Oh btw, The meals don't come after each other, most of the time they wait arround 15 mins, before the next dish comes.
so lets say that:
Hors d'oeuvres take15 mins to eat.
15 min break.
soup arround 20 mins (?)
15 min. break.
Steak arround 30 mins (?)
15 min break.
Dessert 10 mins
Total = 120 min. that's 2 hours... lol's
Come to think of it, that's the only explanation really...
The dinner is actually expected to start at 19:30, and take about two hours of leisurely eating and chatting!
Normally, Genji would call the cousins by phone to fetch them around 19:00, and phones still work. But instead, Kanon comes personally on nobody's orders, because he is aware of Maria standing around alone in the garden! He intentionally comes early, because the plan is to have Maria searched for in the dark and under the rain, discovered, suitably pitied, and draw attention to her umbrella and the letter!
The added umbrella and letter conversations extend the length of the dinner in such a way that only at 22:00 the cousins run away into the parlor, filling out the missing hour!
delita-umw-
2010-06-28, 07:10
Haha, I was thinking of Italy when I raised that point. So given this style, I guess we can reasonably say that's where the missing hour has gone?
Haha, I was thinking of Italy when I raised that point. So given this style, I guess we can reasonably say that's where the missing hour has gone?
With half an hour remaining per dish... I think my blue works better. :)
Dlanor A. Knox
2010-06-28, 07:11
Yay, the dinner mystery is solved xD
Soo....now?
Yay, the dinner mystery is solved xD
The interesting consequence of that blue would be that Kanon may have actually pulled most of the expected fake first twilight all by himself.
I don't think the variant where Kanon and Shannon are the two individually-bodied halves of single "Beatrice" -- Kanon the innocent half and Shannon the murdering half -- have been well explored yet.
Dlanor A. Knox
2010-06-28, 07:25
*nods* true, but I think there are many things that haven't been explored yet... not..that I know what those things are....
There's also a lot unknown about Kanon...
Smeckledorf
2010-06-28, 07:40
I don't know. My conclusion jumped the gun on explaining 'Maria's' letter. We know the letter was written by the person who is pretending to be Beatrice and that person knows about the murders and the bomb. I am just thinking, why would the murderer also set up a bomb? Seems like overkill. So, I think they are two separate plans.
What about that number from episode 3? 07151129. I was thinking about it. That is the key to obtaining money for a few people. The key was mailed the day before October 4th,1986. The person who painted those numbers was likely the same person who sent the money. But what is the meaning? I don't think it points out the murderer because getting it after you escape seems a little useless. Maybe it is the code to deactivate the bomb?
There's also a lot unknown about Kanon...
Well, here's the variant in particular for Ep1. :)
Both Kanon and Shannon actually lay claim to the title of Beatrice. It is immaterial if Kanon is a girl or not, pick whichever you feel more comfortable with.
Both Kanon and Shannon are actually in competition for Battler's love, rather than someone else's. Now that it is known that Battler is coming, they can go through with their respective plans.
Kanon has a Plan to make Battler solve the epitaph and rid Kanon of the impending title of the head that would otherwise fall on him because of Kinzo's wishes. He also sets up a contingency plan of the bomb in case he fails.
Shannon actually wants to prevent Battler from solving the epitaph as she is fed up with this whole Ushiromiya business, gold and associated strain, she'd rather elope. But it has to be Battler. She is the Beatrice that Maria knows about, and for the moment, plays along with Kanon.
In the morning, Kanon digs up the buried Kinzo, hides him on the premises and is now in the posession of the ring.
George is acting on Shannon's request and marks a rose with no provocation -- Shannon passes it off as an attempt to play happy a magic trick on Maria by replacing the rose later with a healthy one and saying Beatrice healed it with magic.
But instead, Maria is stuck in the garden alone, and gets the umbrella and the letter - written by Kanon.
Later on, tea is served to the adults in conference which contains a sleeping draught. They are hidden in the garden shed with Shannon to watch over them, and Kanon thinks all will be alright now and sets Kinzo's corpse on 'medium well done'.
But instead, Shannon kills the sleeping adults, seeing her chance to strike.
Hideyoshi witnesses Shannon's "body" in the shed. Shannon is actually sleeping and possibly covered in real blood and guts from her victims to make it look like she is also dead.
Later on, Shannon kills Hideyoshi as a witness and hides in the room, killing Eva as a witness to Hideyoshi's murder. Kanon, fearing that it must be Shannon who has betrayed him, rushes to cut the chain, but is too late. Resulting commotion prevents him from having a heart-to-heart talk with Shannon whom he knows is hiding there, so he doesn't give her away.
Asking Jessica for help in the first and only time in his life, with Jessica and Nanjo Kanon fakes his own death.
Further mess continues as Maria places the second letter on the table, unaware that the plan has been called off.
Shannon kills Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo, leaving Maria alive.
Natsuhi, observing the whole mess, rushes out to see Kanon trying to shoot Shannon but accidentally, Kanon kills Natsuhi instead. :)
Something like that.
Hors d'oeuvres is french and literly means outside the main court. it's something like an apretizer, but its "lighter".
Mostly it's something like cheese, sausage etc.
Oh btw, The meals don't come after each other, most of the time they wait arround 15 mins, before the next dish comes.
so lets say that:
Hors d'oeuvres take15 mins to eat.
15 min break.
soup arround 20 mins (?)
15 min. break.
Steak arround 30 mins (?)
15 min break.
Dessert 10 mins
Total = 120 min. that's 2 hours... lol's
That seems about right. An important dinner should last at least that much, and Gohda is certainly not the "fast food" kind. He believes a dinner is not just about feeding, it's an experience that must be slowly enjoyed and must be entertaining.
That kind of schedule isn't much different from a typical (proper) italian dinner, anyway. Except you'd have pasta or risotto instead of the soup, then fruit after the dessert, and lastly coffee for whoever desires it.
On the messed-up Second Twilights in Chiru, there's always the simplest explanation that the culprit just messes up. Even if we believe Hideyoshi was going to fake the second twilight but was actually attacked and killed, clearly things didn't go quite as planned with Natsuhi witnessing and Eva coming back too soon. That leaves aside the issue of where the culprit could have gone, but ignoring that, it could just be a bungle. And in ep6, the game may simply pause before the culprit got around to finishing up.
But an excellent point has been raised: "tear apart" does not imply murder per the Plotline Murders scheme, so in theory no one has to die in the Second Twilight at all.
However, here's an even stranger thing: If the Plotline Murders are supposed to track the epitaph, the culprit should not be killing at the second twilight.
Look at the epitaph! "At the second twilight, those who remain shall tear apart the two who are close."
The executor of the Second Twilight is clearly stated to be "those who remain." If we go by the (incorrect) epitaph murder ritual interpretation, the killer should be forcing the remaining survivors to commit the Second Twilight, not doing it him or herself.
The executor of the Second Twilight is clearly stated to be "those who remain." If we go by the (incorrect) epitaph murder ritual interpretation, the killer should be forcing the remaining survivors to commit the Second Twilight, not doing it him or herself.
That begs the question of how close the "two who are close" have to be to qualify and whether just placing them in the opposite corners of the mansion under strict orders "not to approach each other or no dessert for dinner" will do.
This is no news, it's been noticed since a while that the serial murder isn't really following the epitaph properly. If you see a problem with the second twilight, then what should we say about the third? Was it ever respected?
Anyway the "tear apart" thing can be interpreted as murder if you believe that the only thing that can tear apart two people that love each other is death. The marriage vow says "Until death do us part" isn't it?
However there's still the problem that the "remaining" should do it, not some random killer.
This is actually a problem that applies to the epitaph solution from the riddle standpoint. The only interpretation that I've seen is that you need to move the remaining letters to the center between the "two who are close".
However neither the qilian theory nor the kogane theory do that. And both of them assume "the two" must be killed.
This is actually a problem that applies to the epitaph solution from the riddle standpoint. The only interpretation that I've seen is that you need to move the remaining letters to the center between the "two who are close".
However neither the qilian theory nor the kogane theory do that. And both of them assume "the two" must be killed.
Well, I'm not getting anything with moving the remaining letters between those who are close while starting with Qilian/quadrillion. dulor, rulod, duolr, ruold, dluor, rluod, dlour, rloud, doulr, rould, dolur, rolud... no more permutations remain and none of those make any reasonable sense.
This is no news, it's been noticed since a while that the serial murder isn't really following the epitaph properly. If you see a problem with the second twilight, then what should we say about the third? Was it ever respected?It was halfassed with the discord letter in a few episodes, and outright ignored in others. The problem with the third is the same as with the second; it's the survivors who should be doing it, and it's hard to force them to do it, especially if you're trying to keep your goings-on secret.
But the discord letter is wrong too. The epitaph is addressed to Beatrice! The actual author of the epitaph is speaking in the first-person, therefore the "honorable name" isn't Beatrice. It's whoever is behind the ritual.
...Is there anyone who receives praise consistently sometime after the Second Twilight but before the Fourth?
Granted, the epitaph murders are being committed wrong regardless since we know the epitaph is not about any sort of ritual. The "right answer" will be treating it as a puzzle, as that's the answer that's twice been shown to correctly lead to the gold. Still, I wonder if the person using the epitaph put much thought into what they were doing, because even a cursory reading would indicate they're doing things wrong.
Granted, the epitaph murders are being committed wrong regardless since we know the epitaph is not about any sort of ritual. The "right answer" will be treating it as a puzzle, as that's the answer that's twice been shown to correctly lead to the gold. Still, I wonder if the person using the epitaph put much thought into what they were doing, because even a cursory reading would indicate they're doing things wrong.
That, actually, could be the motive for the stakings and seals.
I.e. murders are not thought of as epitaph murders by the murderer, but someone else "cleans up" after them trying to make them conform to the epitaph at best they can.
whops I said it wrong... both qilian and kogane theory assume the two must not be killed.
However what's the point in tearing the two who are close apart is absolutely not clear. Maybe it's something related to the mechanism?
The problem with that is the consistency. The murderer always kills, or tries to kill, 5-6 people the first night, but never more or less, and he/she never seems to delay or make opportunistic extra kills the first evening. Then the Second Twilight relies on a lot of luck in getting two people within a short amount of time, not getting caught, and then proceeding with the last five.
It's just oddly convenient that, if we believe the killer isn't following the epitaph, just the right number of people die (or appear to die).
Fake murders into real murders perhaps fixes the FT for us, but it's still probably pretty easy to take out a few other people in the mansion at night and the FT killer doesn't. And that doesn't help with the ST once people realize the FT wasn't faked, or don't realize it wasn't supposed to be real.
Fake murders into real murders perhaps fixes the FT for us, but it's still probably pretty easy to take out a few other people in the mansion at night and the FT killer doesn't. And that doesn't help with the ST once people realize the FT wasn't faked, or don't realize it wasn't supposed to be real.
What "few other people"? It looks to me like in every FT, the number of people in the mansion beside the FT victims is very slim. Suspiciously, they tend to live long after the FT, often, all the way to the end.
What "few other people"? It looks to me like in every FT, the number of people in the mansion beside the FT victims is very slim. Suspiciously, they tend to live long after the FT, often, all the way to the end.It would be trivial to take out Natsuhi in ep1 or Gohda in ep2. One could follow George and Shannon out to the arbor and get them there (assuming one or both aren't the killers themselves, anyway). When Kanon runs off to do something (if he's not another person), kill him on the evening of the 4th, before anybody goes to bed. People seem accustomed to him being off on his own. If murder is your goal and you're not intentionally following the epitaph, why are you waiting or arbitrarily restricting your victim count?
Of course this assumes the killer intends to kill everybody. But the only way to explain away the different patterns is different motives, which implies different killers.
What "few other people"? It looks to me like in every FT, the number of people in the mansion beside the FT victims is very slim. Suspiciously, they tend to live long after the FT, often, all the way to the end.
I'm pretty sure The Dining Hall is in the mansion. In episode 3 the Adults had their discussion there for the whole night. So I don't think that's really true.
If murder is your goal and you're not intentionally following the epitaph, why are you waiting or arbitrarily restricting your victim count?
Of course this assumes the killer intends to kill everybody. But the only way to explain away the different patterns is different motives, which implies different killers.
And why not?...
Assuming that the murders are connected with the epitaph at all creates a motive to kill everyone, which, while initially it sounds plausible, is inherently dubious. But the plot continues with removing the central 19th-person culprit who would have such a motive, the opportunity for anyone to perform all the murders, the precision in following the epitaph... That actually leaves any global motive undefined, well, what if there isn't any?
If your goal is an opportunistic single murder only, killing the other FFT victims makes a lot of sense, because otherwise you can be discovered by your motive - you basically hide your single real victim among four or five other corpses that you know can all be pinned on the FFT organiser. This is where a rational murderer with such a motive should actually stop and pretend they're innocent!
Subsequent murders can then be the result of removing witnesses who turn up, internal conflicts and accusations in the FFT group, paranoia...
I'm pretty sure The Dining Hall is in the mansion. In episode 3 the Adults had their discussion there for the whole night. So I don't think that's really true.
In Ep3, nobody is confirmed to be dead until the morning either, and the most likely theory involves the murders happening immediately after the discovery of the bodies. Adults are alert and move as a group after having seen the seals, so I don't see many opportunities to add any extra victims to the list.
Leafsnail
2010-06-28, 10:02
I doubt the killer in the fourth game is following any epitaph though. Really, the only thing that even vaguely suggests it is the 6 people shot in the dining room, and even then there are actually 7 corpses found there. Also, the two who are close... who are they? George and Jessica? Kumasawa and Gohda? None of them seem to work very well. Not to mention the stakes which just seem to have been carelessly stuck into heads...
This is actually a problem that applies to the epitaph solution from the riddle standpoint.
Wait. quadrillion-qilian => u dr l o
Let us assume that "those who remain" must "tear apart those who are close", so that a permutation is needed and only permutations in which D and R are apart with at least one of the remaining letters between them are valid. Well, I just made a list of all of them and here's the only one that makes any sense. In fact, it's the only sequence beside "Lord U" that seems to make any sense.
RUDOL => Rudolf.
What does his name sound when written out as romaji, again?
"Oh oops, I misinterpreted the epitaph. I thought it said to kill Rudolf first."
"No wonder he thought he was going to die. Well, it's a good thing you didn't kill him then."
"..."
"...You killed Rudolf, didn't you."
"I was just trying to be proactive!"
"No wonder he thought he was going to die. Well, it's a good thing you didn't kill him then."
*spends a few minutes laughing before replying*
Well, that would make sense, wouldn't it? Rudolf got to the 'tear apart' step, then decided he's definitely not going further because of noticing his name in it and getting Seriously Worried. Now Beatrice Letter demands the epitaph be solved...
Of course he would expect to die now... ;)
delita-umw-
2010-06-28, 13:13
Err, if the question about Rudolf's pronunciation was a serious question, it would be sound like Rudorufu.
Err, if the question about Rudolf's pronunciation was a serious question, it would be sound like Rudorufu.
It sort of was. You never know with these people. :)
Seriously, I really couldn't find any other readable permutation. Though one other possibility remains... that "to lift up" means something other than just remove, and the lifted letters are to be used in between D and R.
Though that probably isn't it. A word that starts with UD is rare enough, but one that also ends with RLO, I don't think there's any in English or Japanese.
Smeckledorf
2010-06-28, 13:25
Well on the second twilight, you only have two kill one person to split/tear him/her from a close person.
For finding the gold, yea it is likely some weird mechanism where you have to take two things apart.
I don't know how hard you are grading the killer on his/her job but the killings seem to be of opportunity and not just for the epitaph. The fact that it all fits is sheer luck.
Like, let's say Kanon and Jessica for episode 2. The letter to provoke one of the children, it could have been Battler or George also due to the letter's ambiguity, was found by Jessica. So, she was left behind with Kanon. If George was there, then he would have been split from Shanon? Who may or may not have been there with him. What about Battler? He's got no one, except his parents really. What if you say parents are close? Then we could say it is easier to nail the second twilight.
delita-umw-
2010-06-28, 13:31
Ok, so those possibilities are highly unlikely. So IF Rudol is the only reasonable permutation left, what could it mean? The only thing I could think of is that Rudolph was somehow made the trustee for that inheritance situation you described before Oliver prior to the game starting and therefore what the epitaph does is determine a heir and reveals who the heir should go to for the inheritance. Also would explain why he tends to die first IF he chooses to reveal that he is the trustee during the FT but refuses to bestow the inheritance.
Course this is all a huge stretch and I'm not sure where Beato would fit in. Possibly someone else who has already solved the riddle but refuses to claim the gold? Also not too sure if you determine a location on the island purely on clues from everything prior to Rudol.
Wait. quadrillion-qilian => u dr l o
Let us assume that "those who remain" must "tear apart those who are close", so that a permutation is needed and only permutations in which D and R are apart with at least one of the remaining letters between them are valid. Well, I just made a list of all of them and here's the only one that makes any sense. In fact, it's the only sequence beside "Lord U" that seems to make any sense.
RUDOL => Rudolf.
What does his name sound when written out as romaji, again?
lol that's interesting but let's see it from the kogane theory standpoint
quadrillion-liquid=__a_r_l__on
oarln
oalrn
oraln
olarn
orlan
olran
there doesn't seem to be anything relevant, with maybe the exception of "orlan" which is close to "orland" but not close enough.
let's see if i can find all the possible combinations of anything that could lead to only "two close". there's something that helps with this.
Either the two who are close are the two "l", or at least three among the "illi" characters must be eliminated. Else there wouldn't be a compulsory couple of two close letters. It could be "_li_" but also "_l_i" or "i_l_". At any rate if the riddle is well made, such an occurrence shouldn't be possible.
There is however the special case where both "ll" are eliminated and the "i" are not, however in this case we'd have already 4 automatic exclusions.
case one: "ll" are the two who are close (both "i" must be eliminated)
q_a_r_ll___ --- udiion
_u_d__ll_o_ --- qariin
_u__r_ll_o_ --- qadiin
q_a___ll_o_ --- udriin
q__d__ll_o_ --- uariin
q___r_ll_o_ --- uadiin
__a_r_ll_o_ --- qudiin
_u_d__ll_o_ --- qariin
_u__r_ll__n --- qadiio
q_a___ll__n --- udriio
q__d__ll__n --- uariio
q___r_ll__n --- uadiio
__a_r_ll__n --- qudiio
case two: both "i" are are kept ("r", "o" and the two "l" are eliminated)
qu___i__i_n --- adrllo
qu_d_i__i__ --- arllon
_ua__i__i_n --- qdrllo
__ad_i__i_n --- qurllo
q_ad_i__i__ --- urllon
case three: both "i" are are kept and "ri" are the two who are close ("d", "o" and the two "l" are eliminated)
q___ri__i_n --- uadllo
_u__ri__i_n --- qadllo
__a_ri__i_n --- qudllo
q_a_ri__i__ --- udllon
case four: both "i" are are kept and "io" are the two who are close ("r", "n" and the two "l" are eliminated)
q__d_i__io_ --- uarlln
that's it....
case five: both "i" and one "l" are eliminated
q___r_l__on --- uadili
_u__r_l__on --- qadili
__a_r_l__on --- qudili <- kogane theory
qu__r_l__o_ --- adilin
qu_d__l__o_ --- arilin
_ua_r_l__o_ --- qdilin
q_ad__l__o_ --- urilin
q__dr_l__o_ --- uailin
_u_dr_l__o_ --- qailin <- qilian theory
qu__r_l___n --- adilio
qu_d__l___n --- arilio
_ua_r_l___n --- qdilio
q_ad__l___n --- urilio
q__dr_l___n --- uailio
_u_dr_l___n --- qailio
case six: both "l" and one "i" are eliminated "r" and "o" must be eliminated as well because else you wouldn't have a compulsory couple or you might have two of them.
qu_d_i____n --- arllin
q_ad_i____n --- urllin
case seven: both "i" and "l" are eliminated
q_a_r____on --- udilli
that's it...
I think this should cover them all if "quadrillion" is the starting sentence.
tell me if you think I missed something.
EDIT:
The 41 possible combinations ordered by "couple"
qu___i__i_n --- adrllo
qu_d_i__i__ --- arllon
qu__r_l__o_ --- adilin
qu_d__l__o_ --- arilin
qu__r_l___n --- adilio
qu_d__l___n --- arilio
qu_d_i____n --- arllin
_ua__i__i_n --- qdrllo
_ua_r_l__o_ --- qdilin
_ua_r_l___n --- qdilio
__ad_i__i_n --- qurllo
q_ad_i__i__ --- urllon
q_ad__l__o_ --- urilin
q_ad__l___n --- urilio
q_ad_i____n --- urllin
q__dr_l__o_ --- uailin
_u_dr_l__o_ --- qailin
q__dr_l___n --- uailio
_u_dr_l___n --- qailio
q___ri__i_n --- uadllo
_u__ri__i_n --- qadllo
__a_ri__i_n --- qudllo
q_a_ri__i__ --- udllon
q_a_r_ll___ --- udiion
_u_d__ll_o_ --- qariin
_u__r_ll_o_ --- qadiin
q_a___ll_o_ --- udriin
q__d__ll_o_ --- uariin
q___r_ll_o_ --- uadiin
__a_r_ll_o_ --- qudiin
_u_d__ll_o_ --- qariin
_u__r_ll__n --- qadiio
q_a___ll__n --- udriio
q__d__ll__n --- uariio
q___r_ll__n --- uadiio
__a_r_ll__n --- qudiio
q__d_i__io_ --- uarlln
q___r_l__on --- uadili
_u__r_l__on --- qadili
__a_r_l__on --- qudili
q_a_r____on --- udilli
Smeckledorf
2010-06-28, 13:35
Person who finds the gold is head of the family. Beatrice owns all of the gold. He would have to be Beatrice, and if anyone else knew head of the family, unless someone else found it.
Ok, so those possibilities are highly unlikely. So IF Rudol is the only reasonable permutation left, what could it mean? The only thing I could think of is that Rudolph was somehow made the trustee for that inheritance situation you described before Oliver prior to the game starting and therefore what the epitaph does is determine a heir and reveals who the heir should go to for the inheritance.
Unfortunately that as such doesn't work because then Rudolf would have no need whatsoever to pressure Krauss... He could either just slam the documents on the table and say "And now you listen to me." or dip his hand in like Krauss did.
That does not, however preclude Rudolf from being in one way or another special in relation to the epitaph, considering Battler, his sin, the Other Battler and the entire mess.
...and darn, I forgot what I was going to say but I had a different idea.
delita-umw-
2010-06-28, 13:40
Like I said, it was a huge stretch. Though maybe that "and now you listen to me" sparks his murder?
Smeckledorf
2010-06-28, 13:41
After episode 6, the curious part of me wonders if Battler could at all be in on people faking their deaths. Could explain why he is never really 'chosen' as a sacrifice. Also, he is in position to lay quite a few of the letters that were found. Of course, this is crazy talk since Battler has control of his own piece and would know this. Not going through with it would be an easy was to stop the murders, in my opinion.
The other reason I say this is because of what the difficulty level for episode 6 read.
tell me if you think I missed something.
Well, if I approach them with the same rule I got RUDOL with from Qilian, (i.e "any permutation that does not include the two letters that were consecutive as consecutive") the following ones sound like something:
loanr, loran, lorna, rolan... That's about it. There's 408 of them, so I won't post the whole list.
*sputter* I just made the next step in that chain of thought that Rudolf would be Beatrice.
Beatrice: "BATTLER, I AM YOUR FATHER. SEARCH YOUR HEART, YOU KNOW IT TO BE TRUE! *ahahaha.wav*"
Battler: "Say it in red!"
Beatrice: "Sure. Battler, I am your father."
Battler: "NOOOOOOOoooooooooo!"
I dunno, was the 07151129 confirmed to have something to do with the epitaph?
confirmed? No.
But Ryukishi said that there's something about that 07151129
I dunno, was the 07151129 confirmed to have something to do with the epitaph?
So far, no sensible results were achieved trying to connect them, at least I don't remember hearing any.
Meanwhile, I remembered the idea I just had. The Discord seal that always scares people into splitting.
Well, what if it's meant to be an extra hint, to arrive while people are busy solving the epitaph, that simply arrives out of order and references the second twilight, hinting at the way one is supposed to tear apart those who are close?
Well, I was thinking about it the other day, and I haven't figured out a way to get 11 with those numbers. If you do 2+9 that's clearly 11, but there's no other pair or combination that will give you 11 after that. All the ones and the 5 and up to 8, but no way to get 11 after. All of the ones plus seven add up to 10, but no way to get 11 after. If you do 7+2+1 that leaves 1, 1, 5 and 9 which leaves 9+1+1 as another 11, but you're left with a random 5 at the end.
The only thing that evenly breaks down to is 13 :/
0+7+1+5= 13 =1+1+2+9 but then that leaves two sets of 13 rather then just 13.
Maybe I'm just overthinking this :(
After episode 6, the curious part of me wonders if Battler could at all be in on people faking their deaths. Could explain why he is never really 'chosen' as a sacrifice. Also, he is in position to lay quite a few of the letters that were found. Of course, this is crazy talk since Battler has control of his own piece and would know this. Not going through with it would be an easy was to stop the murders, in my opinion.
Actually, one possible interpretation is that Battler is not really in control of his own piece, nor his own perspective. (He himself says once that "I am not responsible for my own conduct." after all)
This, among other things, allows Shkanon to exist in a way that doesn't have credibility problems (Kanon can simply be completely virtual then, for example) -- but unfortunately leaves us with very, very little to stand on, as if we can't trust what Battler sees in this case either.
Leafsnail
2010-06-28, 14:10
Well, 13 sacrifices in the ceremony, right?
For some weird reason, it made me think there were two birthdates, those of Battler and Battler-2/ whoever else was born around that time. I suppose if the murderer in ep3 is Kyrie, both dates would have a real significance to her, and could serve as part of her motives for the murders?
The only thing that evenly breaks down to is 13 :/
0+7+1+5= 13 =1+1+2+9 but then that leaves two sets of 13 rather then just 13.
Maybe I'm just overthinking this :(
And getting Amakusa? Maybe not.
If my memory serves me right, Amakusa's name almost literally reads as "13".
EDIT: Found it. "Amakusa's first name is Jyuuza. His whole name in Japanese is 天草 十三 ... so his first name literally means '13.'"
Smeckledorf
2010-06-28, 14:13
07151129. It is no coincidence that 0715 is Battler's birthday reason being that if they didn't want that confusion it would likely be 7151129. I don't know if the 0715 part is supposed to be played with. I think the part that is supposed to be played with is 1129. I believe someone pointed out that you can make 1129 into kills. So, someone is blaming Battler for all of the deaths?
Amakusa is likely not on that island, unless someone there is an impostor. I think the only people open to being an impostor is Kanon, Gohda and Nanjo.
delita-umw-
2010-06-28, 14:15
You're referring to Juuza right? Well strictly from the kanji, it IS 13. So maybe there is something to it.
And getting Amakusa? Maybe not.
If my memory serves me right, Amakusa's name almost literally reads as "13".
D: It does... His first name, it's Amakuza Juuza (天草 十三)
QUICK anyone know his birthday? I wouldn't be surprised if it was 11 29
Well, I was thinking about it the other day, and I haven't figured out a way to get 11 with those numbers. If you do 2+9 that's clearly 11, but there's no other pair or combination that will give you 11 after that. All the ones and the 5 and up to 8, but no way to get 11 after. All of the ones plus seven add up to 10, but no way to get 11 after. If you do 7+2+1 that leaves 1, 1, 5 and 9 which leaves 9+1+1 as another 11, but you're left with a random 5 at the end.
The only thing that evenly breaks down to is 13 :/
0+7+1+5= 13 =1+1+2+9 but then that leaves two sets of 13 rather then just 13.
Maybe I'm just overthinking this :(
One thing that you missed is that the sum of the first and the last is 9 like the sum of the second and the second last. 'though I don't know if it's relevant at all.
In EP6 we have a "伊藤幾九郎〇五七六" that must be read as "11019960576" that must be interpreted as "18^8" which then must be read as "Touya Hachijo"
Go figure what that 07151129 could be...
QUICK anyone know his birthday? I wouldn't be surprised if it was 11 29
the only birthdate that is known is Battler's
Well, I was thinking about it the other day, and I haven't figured out a way to get 11 with those numbers. If you do 2+9 that's clearly 11, but there's no other pair or combination that will give you 11 after that. All the ones and the 5 and up to 8, but no way to get 11 after. All of the ones plus seven add up to 10, but no way to get 11 after. If you do 7+2+1 that leaves 1, 1, 5 and 9 which leaves 9+1+1 as another 11, but you're left with a random 5 at the end.
The only thing that evenly breaks down to is 13 :/
0+7+1+5= 13 =1+1+2+9 but then that leaves two sets of 13 rather then just 13.
Maybe I'm just overthinking this :(
Well there are 13 sacrifices and 5 people who are left according to the epitaph.
十三 (Juza) in Amakusa Juza's name also can mean 13.
Even so we haven't really found anything important from this just random references. And it's really not unusal for their names to refer to numbers either. IIRC Rena's name in Higurashi was a reference to the "07" in Ryukishi's name and 34 was part of the "Miyo" in Takano's name I think.
The numbers 07151129 probably only refer to the bank account. So what's important is probably where the money came from. Or maybe the number can also refer to the amount of yen in the account. For example if you switch the number around maybe it could be 7,151,129 yen.
D: It does... His first name, it's Amakuza Juuza (天草 十三)
QUICK anyone know his birthday? I wouldn't be surprised if it was 11 29
Unfortunately, absolutely nobody's exact birthday is ever given except Battler's. If any were given and I mysteriously missed them, I want them for my timeline.
But I think I got more or less all of the dates possible.
Go figure what that 07151129 could be...
A sum of two squares (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=7151129), a multiple of two primes... nothing particularly special, I'm afraid.
EDIT: Wolfram Alpha immediately guesses the 18^8 though.
Smeckledorf
2010-06-28, 14:28
The numbers 07151129 probably only refer to the bank account. So what's important is probably where the money came from. Or maybe the number can also refer to the amount of yen in the account. For example if you switch the number around maybe it could be 7,151,129 yen.
Yes, I can see that...
"Oh shit, everyone is going to die... I'll give them the number to the bank accounts so that when they see the money they can find out who the killer was! Yea, when they get back home and get the letter they'll... Dammit."
Also, the only person we know of who knows those numbers is the person who sent the money, but we don't know who that actually is.
Yes, I can see that...
"Oh shit, everyone is going to die... I'll give them the number to the bank accounts so that when they see the money they can find out who the killer was! Yea, when they get back home and get the letter they'll... Dammit."
Also, the only person we know of who knows those numbers is the person who sent the money, but we don't know who that actually is.
At the very least it's the same person that knows where the gold is, the paint used is the same.
Yes, I can see that...
"Oh shit, everyone is going to die... I'll give them the number to the bank accounts so that when they see the money they can find out who the killer was! Yea, when they get back home and get the letter they'll... Dammit."
Also, the only person we know of who knows those numbers is the person who sent the money, but we don't know who that actually is.
My opinion is that Nanjo Jr. was correct in calling it dirty money. It's probably Yakuza money or something.
As for who could create the account I think anybody in business could be capable of doing it the only discrepancy is who would give them the money and why.
At the very least it's the same person that knows where the gold is, the paint used is the same.
I don't see why you have to know where the gold is to make the magic circles. There are only a few people capable of drawing it probably.
Also on that 1998 note, I wonder why Captain Kawabata has Sakutarous in his shop :(
I mean, if it were massed produced at some point, wouldn't Ange have seen it at some point in her life?
The way she reacts to seeing it makes it seem like she hasn't seen a Sakutarou ever :/
delita-umw-
2010-06-28, 14:35
Wasn't that just a repaired Sakutarou that got left on the boat?
Smeckledorf
2010-06-28, 14:39
Probably useless. But I thought about converting numbers to their position in the family. 0 Being head and 07 just being Battler.
(Kinzo), Battler, Kyrie, Eva, Natsuhi
(Kinzo), Battler, Krauss, Jessica, Eva, Natsuhi
Perhaps, the latter is some weird order of rank where Battler is held higher for a reason only known to a few people? That seems wrong though, because Jessica should have no reason to be above Eva and Natsuhi shouldn't be in the top 6.
Of course, if someone else is head then the numbers get jumbled.
As for who could create the account I think anybody in business could be capable of doing it the only discrepancy is who would give them the money and why.
Notice that it isn't an account but safe-deposit boxes of cash.
There's one interesting thing about large amounts of cash. Banks often don't have such quantities on hand and need to order them specially. Unfortunately I can't tell if the ordinances requiring banks to report huge withdrawals like these to tax officials or anti-laundering government organisations were in effect in 1986. They don't have to report anything about who owns safe-deposit boxes in their vaults though.
The obvious result is that the money would be hard to obtain in a perfectly legal manner period, but it can have been obtained from clandestine sale of metallic gold.
I don't see why you have to know where the gold is to make the magic circles. There are only a few people capable of drawing it probably.
No that's not the point. There are red paint scribbles on the way to the gold. One of them is on the very door that leads to the room with the gold.
The red paint used is the same stuff. Chances that two unrelated persons just happen to use the same paint are minimal.
And even if you suppose that the one that uses the red paint during the game just copied the idea from the one who made those on the way of the gold... you still need to think that this person has seen those, which means, this person knows where the gold is.
Notice that it isn't an account but safe-deposit boxes of cash.
I keep calling it an account for some reason... Maybe it's because I don't know the difference between that and safety deposit boxes. But when I say account I'm just talking about the money
The main difference is that the bank knows absolutely nothing about the content of the vaults. while in a normal account the bank knows every single money movement you make.
I mean, if it were massed produced at some point, wouldn't Ange have seen it at some point in her life?
You'd be surprised. It takes a very large volume of a mass-produced plushie for it to be ubiquitous enough for everyone to remember seeing them. I have about twenty examples of mass-produced plushies that would be completely unknown for anyone outside the 300km range. :)
Smeckledorf
2010-06-28, 14:50
I think that the person who knows where the gold is now and the person who wrote the numbers could be the same person. But, Kinzo could have written the notice in the tunnel to the gold and someone could have merely found his paint since then. Or perhaps he appointed someone to guard the gold in case of his death. I would say the chance the person knows where the gold is and put up the same account is one in the same is 70%.
I was thinking 0715=Battler and 1129=his sin or the date it was committed.
I doubt that the number is just to an account, then the person would likely just be trying to alert people to how Kinzo's money was made. Unless, Nanjo is a fake trying to get the gold because Kinzo never paid him his money, aka the money in those safety deposit boxes. However, that would likely have nothing to do with Battler's sin.
And even if you suppose that the one that uses the red paint during the game just copied the idea from the one who made those on the way of the gold... you still need to think that this person has seen those, which means, this person knows where the gold is.
I get what your saying, but I don't really see it that way. The magic circles are used for a completely different reason, and we know there are knock off circle artists from episode 5. The red scribbles saying 'At the tenth twilight your journey will end and you will reach the village of gold' were written there a long time ago and mirror Rosa's hint to Eva. As far as we know Kinzo might have written them for people who figured it out, and Kinzo's dead. The only other people who may be capable of writing those numbers are the servants, who are also dead, and Hideyoshi, Kyrie, Krauss, Natsuhi, and George who may be faking. If what your saying is true than we have chose one of these people to have had already solved the epitaph previously.
IMO though the number writer should know about the safety deposit boxes that's a given.
EDIT: Okonogi had a theory that Kinzo gave the answer to the riddle and the ring to Eva because he thought she would be a better choice for the head. I wonder if that actually has any merit. Or if it's a hint. Or if it's just him rambling.
EDIT: Okonogi had a theory that Kinzo gave the answer to the riddle and the ring to Eva because he thought she would be a better choice for the head. I wonder if that actually has any merit. Or if it's a hint. Or if it's just him rambling.
Well, for one we know with red that Kinzo could not have done this with his own hands, but it may be a hint that the answer to the riddle actually became a bargaining chip of sorts.
Smeckledorf
2010-06-28, 15:20
I get what your saying, but I don't really see it that way. The magic circles are used for a completely different reason, and we know there are knock off circle artists from episode 5. The red scribbles saying 'At the tenth twilight your journey will end and you will reach the village of gold' were written there a long time ago and mirror Rosa's hint to Eva. As far as we know Kinzo might have written them for people who figured it out, and Kinzo's dead. The only other people who may be capable of writing those numbers are the servants, who are also dead, and Hideyoshi, Kyrie, Krauss, Natsuhi, and George who may be faking. If what your saying is true than we have chose one of these people to have had already solved the epitaph previously.
Not necessarily true, I believe there was a tip where servants said that they would be patrolling the mansion and they would look at a wall turn around then look back and there would be strange drawing in red. I believe that the red paint used, and this may sound crazy, is disappearing-reappearing paint. This would explain why such elaborate images could be done in mere minutes in episode 1 and the like. However, this does not explain how someone would know Eva was supposed to return to her room. Unless you go back to thinking that she was going to fake her death and ended up being murdered because of that.
ErenselTheJester
2010-06-28, 15:22
So far, no sensible results were achieved trying to connect them, at least I don't remember hearing any.
Meanwhile, I remembered the idea I just had. The Discord seal that always scares people into splitting.
Well, what if it's meant to be an extra hint, to arrive while people are busy solving the epitaph, that simply arrives out of order and references the second twilight, hinting at the way one is supposed to tear apart those who are close?
I'm guessing what I said and the small tiny fact that gives it back up doesn't count as sensible? To something more important, I think that the money in the Deposits Boxes was the same amount as the gold, and its more than likely that the gold was changed into paper money as a fail- safe in case Kinzo never found an inheritor. But this is just a guess.
I'm guessing what I said and the small tiny fact that gives it back up doesn't count as sensible?
Or I don't remember it, my memory is far from perfect. :) Giving a link to a previous post of yours so that it can be included in the discussion would be a bit more productive, if you ask me.
ErenselTheJester
2010-06-28, 15:34
Here (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=3101883&postcount=11376)
and
Here (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=3103516&postcount=11456)
I believe that the red paint used, and this may sound crazy, is disappearing-reappearing paint.
Ah, found it. http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=2998642#post2998642
Back when I described this trick, I thought of the room swapping in hopes that it may allow us to somehow bypass the chain repairing trick. It doesn't.
But it neatly explains how the red paint may instantly appear on a door without anybody lying. :)
If you turn the numbers into letter with 07151129 (a = 0) you can have
0 7 15 11 2 9
a h p l c j
ah...if only it was 07151124...it could have mean chapel and not chapjl
Smeckledorf
2010-06-28, 16:21
If you turn the numbers into letter with 07151129 (a = 0) you can have
0 7 15 11 2 9
a h p l c j
ah...if only it was 07151124...it could have mean chapel and not chapjl
Hm... 9 and 4 aren't all too different. This could have been rushed or the dripping paint could have malformed the last number.
How about this, we rearrange the number numerically to get 01112579.
0+1=1+1=2+5=7+9=16? Maybe 16 is a hint?
If I count the order of from family head as 1 and down, counting Kinzo as family head, 16 would be Kanon.
16 is also Zepar's number which is believed to point to Kanon since yo+shi+ya (4+4+8) makes 16
but still I don't see the progression. 1+2 doesn't make 5 and 5+7 doesn't make 9
Smeckledorf
2010-06-28, 16:32
16 is also Zepar's number which is believed to point to Kanon since yo+shi+ya (4+4+8) makes 16
but still I don't see the progression. 1+2 doesn't make 5 and 5+7 doesn't make 9
I edited the way I posted it, so it looks right.
0+1=1+1=2+5=7+9=16
That way each number only appears once.
But we may have something here.
yet... if the author of that red scribble intended to make someone think about rearranging the numbers in such way so to end with "16" which then should make them think about an unofficial ranking system where Kanon is 16th, and that should make them think that Kanon is the culprit or something...
seriously this author must have been incredibly optimistic....
Smeckledorf
2010-06-28, 16:45
To rearrange something numerically does not take a genius. Then detecting a pattern like that one seems simple enough. Saying the 15 family members are the first 15 and Nanjo is above the servants as a guest, that would leave Kanon as 16. Otherwise, we would have Gohda as sixteen if you don't count Nanjo. If you don't count Kinzo then Kumasawa is 16.
This is far from perfect, but to me this some sense. And let's say the scribbler is optimistic, I would say Shanon is quite optimistic herself.
The main difference is that the bank knows absolutely nothing about the content of the vaults. while in a normal account the bank knows every single money movement you make.This is really important. It's also why Nanjo Jr. felt the money was "dirty." Nobody stores huge piles of cash in safe deposit boxes, that's what a bank account is for.
If someone put cash in those boxes, they very pointedly did not want anyone aware of the "transaction" to the recipient or his or her heirs.
Not to get off topic, but I just noticed something. One thing we've been saying is that Maria dies when the epitaph is solved. Well I just noticed that from episode 4 Maria is given an umbrella by Kinzo and there is no mention of her receiving a letter from Beatrice,and the same thing happens with Erika in episode 5 (minus the umbrella) so there is no letter from EP4 and on. Rosa has died in the first twilight consistently since that first happened in episode 4. It probably doesn't make sense in the same way Maria's death does since it's not compatible with episode 1. But if you don't include episode 1 this seems like a valid first twilight condition for Rosa.
Smeckledorf
2010-06-28, 17:07
Well, Maria's piece seemed to originally spread the legend of the witch. So, it would make sense that she is kept alive. However, if she is ever picked to 'die' by Beatrice then it would be a faked death.
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