Character discussion - Maria

[Klashikari]

The purpose of this thread is to provide a place to discuss all things Maria related.
To keep the discussion enjoyable for all Umineko no Naku Koro ni fans, please follow the guidelines below and stay on-topic!
http://h.imagehost.org/0460/Maria.jpg


Note: Please don't use this for the specific episode / chapter / game talk, there are other threads (http://forums.animesuki.com/forumdisplay.php?f=93) for that stuff.

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[kirapika]

Ooh~ Character Discussion eh?

About Maria.. what can I say? Maria is awesome! Hmm.. maybe I'm just being biased but really, isn't she so? Yandere!Maria is total WIN and seeing it just makes me want to cheer. lol.

Uuu~!

[Chaho-Chi]

Heh I like the cross-like Kanji in her name.

[Golden Witch Drugs]

Hmm... A character discussion... I love Maria, I do, but I disliked her until the end of ep 2. In ep 1 and most of ep 2 I just thought she was an annoying lil' kid who always cried out "Uu" wich bugged me :/ But now I know what she really wanted, and that makes me like her :)

[Goilveig]

The biggest mystery of all is how that little crown manages to stay on her head regardless of the weather. Once we solve that, all the rest will fall into place.

[Chadauw]

Goilveig-> Ribbon. Mystery solved.

[unconfirmed]

The biggest mystery of all is how that little crown manages to stay on her head regardless of the weather. Once we solve that, all the rest will fall into place.

This
http://www.famitsu.com/anime/news/__icsFiles/artimage/2009/03/04/pc_fc_an_ne/umi07.jpg

Anyways, Maria's a great character, I love her-uu

[Chaho-Chi]

I did love her crown. Something you can't see often on a anime character like her.

[Oekitarts]

Is that.... a headband?

[momobunny]

It's a ribbon... it ties the crown onto her head, which is why you see the ribbon right under her chin.

[Tomoya-kun]

I don't know why, but I've always like Maria's laugh for some reason. :)

[MarthX]

The biggest mystery of all is how that little crown manages to stay on her head regardless of the weather. Once we solve that, all the rest will fall into place.

That's easy. The answer is magic.

[Yami Sonozaki]

Well I'm the first one to say I HATE dislike her.
Her uuu is making me crazy most of the time >_>.. There's some other things that make me feel anti-Maria, but I can't even tell what they are.
Maybe my opinion will change as I see more... maybe xd.

[typhonsentra]

Obligatory.

iXsSzxBVJJI

[Makku]

Well I'm the first one to say I HATE dislike her.

Don't worry, Makku's here for backup.

I dislike Maria a lot. She's one of my least favorite characters in the series, along with Rena.

Now I've read through all the released game arcs, and I know her back story and all. But come on, she's nine years old, how can she still be so stupid and annoying?

It also helps that I'm on the anti-fantasy side, just stop talking about witches for once!

[TsundereCake]

Don't worry, Makku's here for backup.

I dislike Maria a lot. She's one of my least favorite characters in the series, along with Rena.

Now I've read through all the released game arcs, and I know her back story and all. But come on, she's nine years old, how can she still be so stupid and annoying?

It also helps that I'm on the anti-fantasy side, just stop talking about witches for once!

I don't remember a character named "Rena" in Umineko O_O"






XD

[Makku]

I don't remember a character named "Rena" in Umineko O_O"

I don't know about you, but I count Higurashi and Umineko as one series.

[leika]

I can't say that I dislike her. But I am also not a very big fan of Maria.

Sometimes she's just too annoying ant bothering @____@

[Yami Sonozaki]

Oh, thank god I'm not the only one xd.

[IcecoldAssassin]

Well I dont really hate her, but I cant say I like her either.

[IfritTower]

Am I the only one who found her cute even in Episode 1? I felt bad for her when Rosa began slapping her.:(

[IcecoldAssassin]

Well yeah shes cute, but she can be annoying. She does look better in the anime then in the vn though.

[hirahira]

Well I dont really hate her, but I cant say I like her either.

Same here. She's one of the few characters in Umineko that I don't really like or dislike. Her uu's can be really irritating sometimes but I think they were actually less annoying than I imagined them to be. I do like the crown thing she has on her head. It's cute.

[maximilianjenus]

Don't worry, Makku's here for backup.

I dislike Maria a lot. She's one of my least favorite characters in the series, along with Rena.

Now I've read through all the released game arcs, and I know her back story and all. But come on, she's nine years old, how can she still be so stupid and annoying?

It also helps that I'm on the anti-fantasy side, just stop talking about witches for once!

I don't reall hate her but I always smile when Rosa is mean to her.

[Volcanic]

I like Maria a little; she's cute but mysterious and does a lot of stuff that makes you think more highly of her, (like read the letter) even if she still sounds annoying.

Also, I want that crown.

[Tomoya-kun]

But come on, she's nine years old, how can she still be so stupid and annoying?

I don't think "stupid" is the right word. I think "Gullible" is more appropriate. :/

[Chaho-Chi]

But come on, she's nine years old, how can she still be so stupid and annoying?

It could be becuase of what background she was raised in. Rosa isn't home as much and just gave up on Maria. I feel pity on her.

[FateAnomaly]

I find her pretty adorable , even her uguu. However, i think she is somewhat stubborn and unreasonable. i still feel sad when she got slapped though.

[Oekitarts]

When I first saw Maria, it was on the cover image on Umineko's wikipedia article... I was like...
"This is the worst-looking Rena clone... I have ever seen."

...that was so last year.
WHAT WAS I THINKING?!?

*wants to take her (anime version) hooooome*

[Alaya]

Guys, there are things that should not be posted here yet...

[Christen]

yangxu, your whole post is a spoiler.
Meo, I suggest you delete the quote from your post as well.

[Peaches]

I like Maria, but a lot of the times I want to punch her in the face because she creeps me out and doesn't shut up. owo;; I like Maria right now more than before I saw the anime.

[Makku]

Anime Maria is worse than game Maria. Every time she's just supposed to giggle strangely, they've given her a complete "lol so psycho XD" laugh instead.

[momobunny]

I like Anime Maria more than Game Maria, I remember when playing the game she was my least favorite character in EP1 and I just wanted her to shut up. But in the anime she's one of my favorite characters and I don't find her as annoying, though her facial expressions are way over the top.

[Peaches]

That's the same with me as Maho Momo... in the game I wanted to punch her in the face.

[Nino07]

She's a good kid and only wants everyone to be happy with her!
I personally like her^^ She's only doing what's right in her eyes.

She's sort of like Rena in Tsumihoroboshi-hen
While Rena was on a rampage and held the school hostage and stuff, she was only doing it because she thought that it was the right thing to do. Takano's scrapbook, her murders and the syndrome have all caused her logic to go array, but when it came down to it she was only looking out for everyone and her heart was in the right place.

Maria believes in Beatrice so she was fine with the murders cause she knew that in the end, they would all be revived anyway.

And whether or not she WAS involved with the murders (direct or indirectly), she only did it because she believed that in the end Beatrice will grant her wish. She's a 9 year old girl that is actually mature and brave enough to realize and accept these conditions. For the sake of her happiness and everyone's. You might say she's stupid for believing it but given all the fighting and tension, she still thought of everyone^^

Maria loves her family very much and only wants everything the way it was.

In the end this is still my opinion, I think she's a good kid and a very interesting character. Her logic might not exactly sit right with everyone but she's only thinking of the best outcome in all this mess.

Edit: Ah umm gomen^^;
I'm new to threads and such so I didn't know any better....

I'll take it down

[Christen]

You might want to refine your spoiler tag. People might mistake it for anime episode 2-3/II-III. Maybe indicate it as Game Episode 2-3?

[momobunny]

I don't think game spoilers are allowed in character discussions either way.

[othera]

Maria is like, The best character eve. >:3

Her Uu is cute as hell, So is her crown. Why must everyone hate on them q.q

[Alucard24]

She's a good kid and only wants everyone to be happy with her!

Maria loves her family very much and only wants everything the way it was.

In the end this is still my opinion, I think she's a good kid and a very interesting character. Her logic might not exactly sit right with everyone but she's only thinking of the best outcome in all this mess.


Well, a good kid would not laugh just after her mother have been murdered isn't it ? She should cry or something.... It seems she's enjoying the whole thing.

[Jan-Poo]

Sometime I wonder if it isn't just Maria's way to escape from reality.

If she were to acknowledge that witches do not exist, she'd have to accept that her mom died and she could never see her again. The idea that magic exist, that everyone will be revived in the end and that she will see her mom again in a far better world is a lot more appealing.

So maybe she does all those witch talks as a form of defense, everytime someone denies the witch she has to jump in and tell him how he's wrong, not because she wants to "convert" him, but because she wants to strengthen her conviction.

Of course she already believed in the witch from the start, but the situation made her worse, and her psychotic faces and reactions maybe come from the fact that deep inside her she knows what's the truth and as freud said, an unresolved internal conflict brings to madness.

[Chii Kei]

I don't really have much of a preference for Maria yet, as I've only played the first game (The rest are coming in the post this week, yay!! <3) and up to ep 6 for the anime, but I really like her "uuu" - it's cute. <3

[momobunny]

Umm... I still don't think game spoilers are allowed in character threads. o_o;

[Chii Kei]

Umm... I still don't think game spoilers are allowed in character threads. o_o;


Oh shoot, really? D8! I go remove!

[gtr06]

Hoire Yui went "UUUU" once in Toradora too.

[Ithekro]

I believe she went Uguu in Toradora as well...she's just good at cute noises...and apparently creaping people out.

[gtr06]

I believe she went Uguu in Toradora as well...she's just good at cute noises...and apparently creaping people out.

Wondering if OHASHI means "OHAyo GozaimaSHIta".

[Ganon]

(but she annoyed me a bit in garden scene)

agreed,that scene with maria's "uu"s was a bit annoying but at the same time i feel sorry for her.stupid rosa..

[Akuryou]

I dislike Maria and I feel all fuzzy when Rosa falcon punches her.

[Ithekro]

She's nice and creepy. I enjoy Hocchan's creepy voice.

[patnam]

In her cute mode: "Uuuu.. Uuuu.."
In her creepy mode: "Kihihihihihihi..."

[Ganon]

when Rosa falcon punches her.

u mean falcon B**ch slap lol XD.

[Dark Angel Suigintou]

lmao falcon b**ch slap anyways I liked how Battler smacked her across the head for her creepiness.

[Kimura sensei]

Maria is a quite good girl.

[Mirena]

In the beginning I didn't like Maria at all and just found her annoying. But somehow she's started to grow on me.

Still, it's annoying when people die and she just laughs. Maybe a lack of common sense lies in the Ushiromiya blood? (Just look at Kinzo. :heh:)

[Shinguji]

Still, it's annoying when people die and she just laughs. Maybe a lack of common sense lies in the Ushiromiya blood? (Just look at Kinzo. :heh:)

Actually, I think Maria feels that there's no real need to be sad when everyone is going to be revive and meet again in the Golden Land anyway, due to her deep belief in magic/Beatrice. So her laughter is, in my opinion, her looking down on the others for not understanding that.

[Arbane the Terrible]

Still, it's annoying when people die and she just laughs. Maybe a lack of common sense lies in the Ushiromiya blood? (Just look at Kinzo. :heh:)

As I mentioned in another thread, my current theory is that she's got Asperger's Syndrome. She fits the diagnosis pretty well: Obsessive about one topic (occultism), lack of empathy, and deafness to social cues (which is very bad for her, as it means she can't tell when her mom's about to snap).

[orion]

One diagnosis isn't going to cover her imo. I suspect that her interest in the occult may be explained as we get on in the series. Poor kid on top of beng abused may even have a second personality (creepy Maria) to escape all the violence and pain.

She gave me a headache in the beginning. Now I just say "Poor kid.".

[Vega Lyra]

I love Maria's UUU sound. I fall for the cuteness of the 'UUU'. But at other time I find her so annoying when she's at her crazy laugh scenes. I feel a sick kind of sadism whenever Battler 'pats' Maria on the head.
But I fall for her cuteness. <3

[Jan-Poo]

About the asperger syndrome. It is a very common theory. It is even mentioned in the japanese umineko wiki. However I disagree with it.

This is the diagnostic table of the asperger syndrome according to the DSM IV

(I) Qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:

(A) marked impairments in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body posture, and gestures to regulate social interaction
(B) failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level
(C) a lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interest or achievements with other people, (e.g.. by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people)
(D) lack of social or emotional reciprocity

(II) Restricted repetitive & stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests and activities, as manifested by at least one of the following:

(A) encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus
(B) apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines or rituals
(C) stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g. hand or finger flapping or twisting, or complex whole-body movements)
(D) persistent preoccupation with parts of objects

(III) The disturbance causes clinically significant impairments in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

(IV) There is no clinically significant general delay in language (E.G. single words used by age 2 years, communicative phrases used by age 3 years)

(V) There is no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or in the development of age-appropriate self help skills, adaptive behavior (other than in social interaction) and curiosity about the environment in childhood.

(VI) Criteria are not met for another specific Pervasive Developmental Disorder or Schizophrenia."

The main point here is that all the requirement with roman numbers must be fulfilled.

If one person characteristics do not met all of them, they can't be diagnosed with this syndrome.

Now Maria's case in my opinion fulfill every point, except number one. Thinking that the number I is irrelevant is a mistake.

The number one states:

Qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:

- marked impairments in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body posture, and gestures to regulate social interaction:

Do not mistake this. It says "impairment" not "strange". And the problem must be with social interactions.
Maria hasn't any "marked" problem with this. She can smile, she can be frown, she looks people in their eyes (and this is a very big clue that she isn't suffering from autism).

- failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level

Maria does have problems at school. However it isn't her fault. It isn't she the one who avoids people. At any rate she doesn't show such a social impairment on Rokkenjima, anything else is speculation because it wasn't shown. You need to understand that Maria doesn't remember Battler, the 4 October 1986 is as if she met him for the first time. And yet the two socialized in a matter of seconds.

- a lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interest or achievements with other people, (e.g.. by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people)

I don't think I need to explain this. It is completely wrong. Maria LOVES to show her interests to others.

- lack of social or emotional reciprocity

Excluding the lack of empathy she shows for the murders, Maria does' show this either. She well understands when people are angry (her mother), she understands when people are afraid (Battler), and she understands when people are happy. This kind of lack of understandment of human emotions is something that is very characteristic of the asperger syndrome and autism, yet Maria doesn't show that.

The other problem I see with this theory is that it doesn't explain at all the main problem of Maria's strange behavior. The first thing you would say about Maria is that she is delusional and unable to face reality.
However nothing of the sort is explained by autism.

[MeoTwister5]

I'm hoping that people realize that Asperger's is a very broad classification that many good psychiatrists don't always use, as diagnosing a person to have Asperger's is difficult to accurately do.

[orion]

I'm hoping that people realize that Asperger's is a very broad classification that many good psychiatrists don't always use, as diagnosing a person to have Asperger's is difficult to accurately do.

And with this being an anime character that we don't have a way of testing blah blah blah, it's prob best to go with a simple diagnosis. Something that the general population can grasp and run with. Game developer has enough to deal with let alone a complicated psych diagnosis that most fans won't be aware of.

Most fans won't be using DSMIV while playing imo.

Edit: If it wasn't for the "almost" stereotypy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotypy) (in her case those darn "uu"), she wouldn't stick out as much. It's like they put Ayu from Kanon in overdrive. Wouldn't it be interesting if the child abuse (http://www.springerlink.com/content/g7073m1548867777/) was a cause of her "uu"?

[TsundereCake]

Wouldn't it be interesting if the child abuse (http://www.springerlink.com/content/g7073m1548867777/) was a cause of her "uu"?

*cough* *cough*



Man.... something's in my throat.....

[orion]

*cough* *cough*



Man.... something's in my throat.....

Well, she is being traumatized prob on a daily basis.

She got slapped on the train, slapped in the garden, made to stand out in the rain. Wasnt all that within 24 hours depending on which scenario you follow?

Let's not forget her sucker getting squashed by her mother in anger. That brought out Creepy Maria.

[Jan-Poo]

The continuous repetition of the same word or sound is something that is pretty common in very young children. But that's usually true when they are around 3 or 4 years old. That's why Rosa reminds Battler tha Maria is 9 years old.

I would say that Maria suffered from an impairment on her developmental course causing her to keep behaving like a child of a younger age. However the complex behavior and higher intelligence she shows whenever she talks about Beatrice makes me think otherwise.

There are many things that aren't plausible in her "normal" behavior. For example, when she read the letter, she stuttered on the word "messenger" as if it was a difficult word for her. And then a moment later she read a far more complex letter which is full of kanji that a 9 year old girl isn't even supposed to know.

Now there are more examples of that in the novel. Anyway the only conclusion I can come up with is that Maria pretends to be stupid.

I don't mean to say that she is completely normal, but when she shows to do not understand some basic things, she's faking it.

When she shows she is capable of having such a good knowledge of the language to stand up against Battler on an argument at an almost phylosophical level, how am I supposed to believe she doesn't know how to pronounce "messenger"?

Maria is faking it, and in the same way she is faking her overly childish behaviour, which in fact suddenly disappears when she is in "witch" mode.
Most probably Maria does that because she wants to look cute, and her childish behavior could be a way for her to attract her mother's attention.

[Bureiku]

um btw on this topic what kind of nine year old knows hebrew and can write it perfectly and all the such i think this proves that maria is not nine years old mentaly and is probably aware of the other worlds or something happend in her past
maybe maria=rika and is mentaly 100 years old

[Velsy]

I have to admit, Marias "Uuuu" is kinda cute. Like Rikas "nippa!" was

[CrossoverManiac]

I originally believed she was being controlled/possessed by Beatrice. I'm probably wrong but I got the impression she was speaking for Beatrice who was dictating to Maria telepathically.

[Guido]

I do not know if this is the proper thread to discuss the following, but here I go:

In my personal opinion, I think that Ai Shimizu would have been a better choice on Maria's role because she would have added a more sadistic tone to Maria's fanaticism and morbid insanity.

However, I'm not deprecating Yui Horie's performance on the role at all.

It's just that I formed on my mind a deep impression that the role of the playful, but wickedly sadistic, cute little girl nicely suits to Shimizu Ai, since I've ever heard her voicing the role of Road Camelot in D.Gray-man

Of course, I do not think that Maria's being sadistic in her personality. It's more that she harbors a morbid idolatry or fanaticism with everything that goes along the line of occult stuff and witches. But at least one among you will agree with me that the deadly combination of creepiness and cuteness adds gravitas to the character.

Furthermore, I cannot bring myself picturing Ai Shimizu taking on a role whose character has the tendency to intonate a cute sound as part of her moeness factor, hence, that's why I believe for many reasons that Yui Horie was casted on Maria's role, because her unique way of pronouncing her character's "Uuuu" sound is astonishingly moe.

[Arbane the Terrible]

Random crazy theory: I read in an anime blogger's review of the series that Maria's little crown represents a black chess king.

What if Maria's the real enemy, not Beatrice?

The obvious problems with this theory are

1: we have it on the good authority of the 1st Episode's epilogue that Maria died horribly with everyone else, and

2: the small fact that I have NO idea how she'd be a real threat, unless her sheer level of belief in Beatrice is what's empowered Beatrice to kill everyone.

[-Sho-]

Gotta like when she's insane XD

[Jan-Poo]

Yes Maria's little crown is the same as the iconic "black king" of chess. But imho it stinks as a red herring as anything else related to Maria.

[EroShinobi]

Maria way of speech and her dual personality is cute.
I don't understand why many people hate her.

[Arbane the Terrible]

Maria way of speech and her dual personality is cute.
I don't understand why many people hate her.

The "uu" thing gets old, and (in the anime) she spends too much time being utterly creepy with nobody paying any attention. They handle it better in the manga, where people do get creeped out by her when she's acting weird.

Speaking of creepy things, that icon of yours is pure nightmare fuel. :twitch:

[Beatoriche]

I love Maria very much. * is mesmerized by her cu~teness*

She seems to be the very reason I got through my phobia of 'psychos' (being a cute one in fact :D)
(She is also lucky to be the daughter of the BEST MOM IN THE WORLD xD)

[Cytrus]

Yes Maria's little crown is the same as the iconic "black king" of chess. But imho it stinks as a red herring as anything else related to Maria.Actually, it makes perfect sense for Maria to be the black king, imho.

People often associate the king piece with power and authority, but that's a bit misleading. The power piece is the queen, and the anime has already dubbed Beatrice as the queen with its "early queen move" title. A king, on the other hand, is a versatile but rather weak piece. The king is more important than the queen only because [B]taking your king is your opponent's win condition.

That's exactly the case with Maria. If at any point during the game something happens that can convince Maria the witch does not exist, it should also be enough to convince every other person on the island. Beatrice is dependent on belief at least to some extent. If everybody accepts her, she will become the truth. If everybody denies her...

Losing Maria is to the witch side what losing Battler is to the human side - not an immediate loss, but very close to it. The servants (witch side) and people like Kyrie and Rosa (human side) can serve as temporary replacements, but only for the time you need to recover your king piece. The human side survived losing Battler once... and was about to lose five minutes later. So yeah.

Though I certainly wouldn't mind Maria taking on an active role in the battle, too. She's a chibi female determinator (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Determinator), once you see her in Ep.4. I'm sure she could make Battler sweat if she tried.

[Jan-Poo]

The game is not about convincing Maria that the witch doesn't exist, Battler never even tried that, he actually lies to her to make her happy at the start of ep1. Even if Battler demonstrates that the culprit is human, that alone shouldn't suddenly convince Maria that the witch doesn't exist and I see no reason for Battler to strike any further than that.

The King certainly isn't the most powerful piece, but it is still the most important piece. No doubt about Beatrice being the black queen, but if I'd have to chose a black king, my vote would definitely go to Kinzo, who's belief in the witch and knowledge of the occult are by no means inferior to Maria's.

[Arbane the Terrible]

if I'd have to chose a black king, my vote would definitely go to Kinzo, who's belief in the witch and knowledge of the occult are by no means inferior to Maria's.

Which raises the obvious question--how does a 9-year-old Japanese girl know so much about western black magic? It's not on the cirriculum at most schools, and I doubt Rosa would buy her grimoires even for her birthday. And there wasn't any Internet to speak of back in 1986.

[Ithekro]

Grandpa.....and one would assume, Beatrice.

[Jan-Poo]

She didn't learn by herself, it's 1986 there isn't internet in her house (and probably there isn't any computer either), and encyclopedia wouldn't be that accurate on the matter, she's too young to walk alone in a library. Someone must have told her all that stuff. That's actually what she herself would tell you. Of course, it was Beatrice!

[Digdri]

Which raises the obvious question--how does a 9-year-old Japanese girl know so much about western black magic? It's not on the cirriculum at most schools, and I doubt Rosa would buy her grimoires even for her birthday. And there wasn't any Internet to speak of back in 1986.

Considering Maria greets Beatrice in the 2nd arc like she knew her quite well and even call her by her nickname 'Beato', it's not unreasonable to think she met her on the island before (e.g. the previous family meetings). Perhaps Beatrice taught her all this stuff or helped her write it down in her notes even its really complicated. The games suggested that Maria has a really good memory when she was the first to realize that the shrine was missing (in the 1st arc).

[Arbane the Terrible]

Grandpa.....and one would assume, Beatrice.

I'm pretty sure they stated somewhere that Kinzo doesn't like Maria. (If Jessica was the magic expert it would make more sense, since she lives there and would have more chances to read his books.) Beatrice only works as a solution if she exists. :)

[Jan-Poo]

Kinzo doesn't like... any of his relatives

[Arbane the Terrible]

Kinzo doesn't like... any of his relatives

Yeah, the whole "offering them up as human sacrifices" thing kind of made that clear. :D

[Ithekro]

Yet he is the best source for the material, and you'd be surprized by just what a nine year old can retain if they are interested in a topic.

[Jan-Poo]

Yeah, the whole "offering them up as human sacrifices" thing kind of made that clear. :D

Well actually. Kinzo do like Genji and Nanjo whom he consider his best friends, but it's not like he made an exception for them.

Okay end off topic...

[orangejuicetang]

You know, I can't help at grin every time I see Maria's crazy smile in the opening. It's so contagious!

[RikaNipah]

Me too!
Her evil smile..uu uu.
I love it.

It reminds me of Higurashi. Mion/Shion's creepy smile. :D

[AmyElizzabeth]

I believe It's supposed to, I feel so bad for Maria. Damn you, Rosa. Stop hitting her :(
Now, if It were to take a Higurashi twist and Maria and Beatrice to kill everyone......
.....
.....
It'd be upset.

[desirebluesky]

Considering Maria greets Beatrice in the 2nd arc like she knew her quite well and even call her by her nickname 'Beato', it's not unreasonable to think she met her on the island before (e.g. the previous family meetings). Perhaps Beatrice taught her all this stuff or helped her write it down in her notes even its really complicated. The games suggested that Maria has a really good memory when she was the first to realize that the shrine was missing (in the 1st arc).I think she said she meets her every year on the island or something in EP2.

[Izayoi]

Maria is one of those characters that I liked at first and then liked even more, so much that I started to slap Rosa on my screen.

On the other note, I just realize as I browsed danbooru the other day that there is still not a single unsafe picture of Maria. Most awesome thing ever I must admit. I risked dirtying my eyes and browsed 19 pages just to prove my point.

[AmyElizzabeth]

But just you wait...they'll appear.
And I will shoot myself when they do, she's9!
She's adorable, btw.
She's my fav character, whenever Maria comes up I'm like "MARIAMARIAMARIAMARIA"

[SilverSyko]

On the other note, I just realize as I browsed danbooru the other day that there is still not a single unsafe picture of Maria. Most awesome thing ever I must admit. I risked dirtying my eyes and browsed 19 pages just to prove my point.

I guess the pedophiles just don't find Maria that attractive a loli. =p

Though it is still a bit of a surprise acctually, as much as I loathe loli porn.

[Ithekro]

L5 loli will murder them in their sleep.

[Vegitto-kun]

But just you wait...they'll appear.
And I will shoot myself when they do, she's9!
She's adorable, btw.
She's my fav character, whenever Maria comes up I'm like "MARIAMARIAMARIAMARIA"

Delicious loli is delicious ohoho

[risingstar3110]

I love Maria as a character, she's just after Bern in my list, and that's partly due to Rika.

My favourite Umineko loli characters: Bern > Maria >Lambda

Can't remember since when i liked her. She kind of freaked me out in EP I

[maximilianjenus]

Maria is one of those characters that I liked at first and then liked even more, so much that I started to slap Rosa on my screen.

On the other note, I just realize as I browsed danbooru the other day that there is still not a single unsafe picture of Maria. Most awesome thing ever I must admit. I risked dirtying my eyes and browsed 19 pages just to prove my point.

she already stars in two doujinshis, tho.

[Workworkwork]

she already stars in two doujinshis, tho.

Not to mention he's a lying cad since I found questionable pictures of her on there.:cool:

[Vegitto-kun]

Never found maria doujinshi I found much more disturbing

It was ange

6 years old

I then lost my eyes to bleach

[Workworkwork]

Never found maria doujinshi I found much more disturbing

It was ange

6 years old

I then lost my eyes to bleach

Aww yeah, 6 year old Ange and her 1998 counterpart with onii-chan....

If you catch my drift.

[kuro_usagi]

Maria...
In her cute mode, I love her ^^
But in stubborn & crazy mode, I found her annoying~ X(

[suiryoku]

Maria is my least favorite character of Umineko. I admit, when she first started crying about her rose, I wanted her mom to make her be quiet (not necessarily hit her). Also, I do like how knowledgeable she is on witchcraft and demonic symbols, she's definitely a valuable asset. If only she wouldn't be so weird when it comes to talking about Beatrice. I used to think she was possessed (I still do).

[TheComedian]

I'm not really crazy about Maria. Her constant Kira-like expressions were a little annoying, especially when characters I LIKE are getting killed off. Although she does seem to be making a degree of improvement, and I will say her mom is pretty despicable considering she treats her HORRIBLY at any given opportunity.

EDIT: I would like to disregard that statement now. Maria did something rather cool in 22. Can't say what, ya'll have to see for yourselves :P

[Crontica]

After seeing what Rosa did to the poor child turning her into the next female version of Kira, i have no remorse for the bitch. Oh really you hate the child that much eh? ADOPT HER AND SAVE EVERYBODY THE TROUBLE!

[momobunny]

After seeing what Rosa did to the poor child turning her into the next female version of Kira, i have no remorse for the bitch. Oh really you hate the child that much eh? ADOPT HER AND SAVE EVERYBODY THE TROUBLE!

I doubt Rosa actually hates Maria... I still believe that part of the story was a dream or an illusion of some sort. Otherwise Rosa wouldn't feel badly after she abuses Maria nor would she protect her during the entirety of EP2 nor would she have begged for Maria's life to be saved instead of her own in EP3 (at least, I remember that happening in the VN).

Though, one could look at that Rosa torture scene as a Black Witch torture scene... even Maria says it during that she's not her mother but the Black Witch who looks like her mother.

[kuro_usagi]

I agree with Maho Momo.
If Rosa hates her daughter, she would never feel sorry after abusing Maria.
'cause if she really resented Maria, she will leave her eaten alive by the goats at EP 2 or begged for her own life rather than Maria's to be spared in EP 3...
Some people seem delighted of having her tortured Rosa to death in EP 4...
but after saw the scene, I was getting irritated by her more, instead of Rosa
Sure Rosa had done horrible things such destroying Sakutaro & lying about her vacation with boyfriend... but she also had done good things for her..O.O
She shouldn't just forget those things & butchered her mama like that!

[Vegitto-kun]

I agree with Maho Momo.
If Rosa hates her daughter, she would never feel sorry after abusing Maria.
'cause if she really resented Maria, she will leave her eaten alive by the goats at EP 2 or begged for her own life rather than Maria's to be spared in EP 3...
Some people seem delighted of having her tortured Rosa to death in EP 4...
but after saw the scene, I was getting irritated by her more, instead of Rosa
Sure Rosa had done horrible things such destroying Sakutaro & lying about her vacation with boyfriend... but she also had done good things for her..O.O
She shouldn't just forget those things & butchered her mama like that!

those are probably only just a few things that rosa has done.

constantly bitchslapping her is evil enough for me

[Marion]

If we take that torture scene as a dream sequence then it's very bias - Maria can easily believe Rosa is just like that (or rather 'black witch' rosa).

[Vegitto-kun]

but then again

who says its a dream it might of been the meta world

[Thunder Book]

I didn't like Maria until Episode 4. After that, I felt much more sympathy for her.

[Kaiba]

I viewed that scene as meta-world, just as Rosa's meal in the aftermath of Episode 2.
Also, just as a side note, I will go ahead and say that many people (including myself) hypothesize that Rosa never actually destroyed Sakutarou. Remember that we're seeing this from the point of view of Maria's diary, whom can obviously be heavily biased.

Maria I'll admit I find insufferable, and while Rosa's beatings are bad, I can somewhat sympathize with her as she's highly concerned that Maria is simply refusing to adapt to human society, which will be a problem for her in the future.

[momobunny]

I viewed that scene as meta-world, just as Rosa's meal in the aftermath of Episode 2.
Also, just as a side note, I will go ahead and say that many people (including myself) hypothesize that Rosa never actually destroyed Sakutarou. Remember that we're seeing this from the point of view of Maria's diary, whom can obviously be heavily biased.

Maria I'll admit I find insufferable, and while Rosa's beatings are bad, I can somewhat sympathize with her as she's highly concerned that Maria is simply refusing to adapt to human society, which will be a problem for her in the future.

You also have to look at it from Maria's point of view though. Magic and witches are her form of escapism from life, the more she learns about witches and the more she believes, the bigger her dream world becomes. She's at a point where her life is pretty sad, so she has to use fantasies to make herself happy.

Rosa isn't innocent in this since it's basically her fault that Maria's life is so bad to begin with. Even if Maria had no friends at school, she was starving for the love of her mother so that alone could have helped.

Both characters have problems. You can't really just say "MARIA IS RIGHT!! ROSA IS A TOTAL BITCH!!" or "ROSA IS RIGHT!! MARIA IS A TOTAL BRAT!!"... it's a bad cycle and form of thinking on both of their parts... but Rosa being the adult, started it... but if you look at her past and her family, you could imagine why she's like that in the first place.

[freezep0p]

I doubt Rosa actually hates Maria... I still believe that part of the story was a dream or an illusion of some sort. Otherwise Rosa wouldn't feel badly after she abuses Maria nor would she protect her during the entirety of EP2 nor would she have begged for Maria's life to be saved instead of her own in EP3 (at least, I remember that happening in the VN).

Though, one could look at that Rosa torture scene as a Black Witch torture scene... even Maria says it during that she's not her mother but the Black Witch who looks like her mother.

I wouldn't necessarily count EP2/3 as proof that she cares about Maria, as it could be just as well argued that Rosa was the one who killed Maria in both those scenes.

I think part of Rosa hates Maria, but love and hate aren't mutually exclusive. The torturing scene probably just showed one side of her feelings; while she does resent Maria for getting in the way of her happiness, she probably hates herself more for feeling that way in the first place. Her main concern has always been with having people think she's a good mother than actually acting as one. But in the end, Maria's really the only one who's never judged her for it... well, at least not until episode 22.

I dunno, though. Like someone else said, it seems like they both have their own issues going on. I think Maria's more of a victim than Rosa in that her craziness is a result of the circumstances rather than her own choices, but... Maria *can* be pretty obnoxious, so I can't blame Rosa entirely.:heh:

[momobunny]

I wouldn't necessarily count EP2/3 as proof that she cares about Maria, as it could be just as well argued that Rosa was the one who killed Maria in both those scenes.

I think part of Rosa hates Maria, but love and hate aren't mutually exclusive. The torturing scene probably just showed one side of her feelings; while she does resent Maria for getting in the way of her happiness, she probably hates herself more for feeling that way in the first place. Her main concern has always been with having people think she's a good mother than actually acting as one. But in the end, Maria's really the only one who's never judged her for it... well, at least not until episode 22.

I dunno, though. Like someone else said, it seems like they both have their own issues going on. I think Maria's more of a victim than Rosa in that her craziness is a result of the circumstances rather than her own choices, but... Maria *can* be pretty obnoxious, so I can't blame Rosa entirely.:heh:
I can't say anything to the EP2 scene but I thought there was red that denied that Rosa killed Maria in the EP3 scene.

[Thunder Book]

Could someone explain to me why exactly people think Rosa may not have destroyed Sakutaro? I never quite understood the reasoning behind it.

I think it had something to do with what Ange saw towards the end of Episode 4 possibly being a mass produced version of Sakutaro or something?

[Kaiba]

I don't feel like elaborating on it due to VN spoiler, but here are some basic premises:
1. I find the story presented by Maria regarding Sakutarou's destruction completely unbelievable, particularly with regards to the behavior of the social worker.
2. The 1986 is definitely not Maria's first visit to Rokkenjima. I hold she's been there for previous family conferences, took Sakutarou to one of them, and lost it.
3. Maria refused to accept that Sakutarou was lost, and so re-created him as an imaginary friend, hence his rebirth as shown when he was made a human... thing.
4. Rosa destroyed the imaginary Sakutarou on that night that things went bad, declaring that there is no Sakutarou and that Maria needs to get over losing the stupid doll, which destroyed the image in her mind.

I'm not stating where I think Sakutarou is due to spoilers, but these are the basic premises.

[Marion]

I don't see any reason to believe Sakutaro's death was faked or misinterpreted. Yes it may be selective memories, but at the same time this is apparently recorded in Maria's diary (the one Ange reads). Besides if Maria just lost Sakutaro at Rokkenjima then I'm sure one of the servants would have noticed and just call Rosa about it. Even if Rosa didn't want Maria to have Sakutaro anymore I'm sure one servant would have been nice enough to give the toy back when Maria came to Rokkenjima again (like Shannon or something). Dead =/= Lost.

Ange said the last conference she went to (1985) was when she got expelled from the Mariage Sociere. Back then Maria had Sakutaro still. So I doubt Maria lost him there.

[Ekul]

The main problem with Sakutaro being lost instead of ripped apart is that Maria's treatment of Rosa during Problem Child/Wonderful World of Witches suddenly loses most of its meaning.

[Workworkwork]

I don't feel like elaborating on it due to VN spoiler, but here are some basic premises:
1. I find the story presented by Maria regarding Sakutarou's destruction completely unbelievable, particularly with regards to the behavior of the social worker.
2. The 1986 is definitely not Maria's first visit to Rokkenjima. I hold she's been there for previous family conferences, took Sakutarou to one of them, and lost it.
3. Maria refused to accept that Sakutarou was lost, and so re-created him as an imaginary friend, hence his rebirth as shown when he was made a human... thing.
4. Rosa destroyed the imaginary Sakutarou on that night that things went bad, declaring that there is no Sakutarou and that Maria needs to get over losing the stupid doll, which destroyed the image in her mind.

I'm not stating where I think Sakutarou is due to spoilers, but these are the basic premises.

Rosa is filthy rich by any normal standards. She just bribed the social worker off.:heh:

[Marion]

And as Rosa said - they had no proof Maria was being abused other than being kept home along late nights. Maria herself never said she was being abused by Rosa. If she did THEN child services could do something. But she loves Rosa too much to fault her (even after Sakutaro is ripped to pieces she blames the black witch rather than her mother)

[vendredi]

I hope cross-posting theories is allowed, but here is my take on Maria's role in the story. I'll repost a theory I put up a little earlier in the Episode 3 thread since I'm just itching to get out of my system. I've only finished up to Episode 3, so I'll just dump this here for now and come back to this discussion about Maria after Episode 4 - I have heard there are more revelations concerning here there.

Maria is possibly one of the more fascinating characters in Umineko, and here is a rather long treatise on her incorporating a lot of stuff I have noticed. If it's too long, jump to the paragraphs after the bullet points - that's where I make my main argument. I apologize in advance if this is a little heavy on the religious analysis, but this is precisely what makes the When They Cry series so fascinating.

Maria is obviously a reference to the Virgin Mary - who declares boldly in the first chapter of Luke that "I am the Lord's servant, may it be as you said." Again, a fitting name for Maria, who is the most vocal advocate of the Witch.

Mary's miracle is the virgin birth of Jesus: eventually the one man who accomplishes the miracle of resurrection, and, as Beatrice notes in love - the man who taught that the one element of all things is love, and from where the modern calendar - "Anno Domini" (A.D., literally "In the Year of Our Lord") derives from.

Furthermore, Mary's miracle in orthodox theology is made possible because of her willingness to believe in the message the angel brings her - if she did not believe then she would not have been God's chosen vessel. Understanding this is fairly important in grasping Maria's role throughout the series, I believe.

Some other interesting tidbits:

-Rosa's single motherhood of Maria, with an unknown father - seems to reinforce the "virgin birth" angle.

-Maria has a basic grasp of Hebrew, possibly Ancient Hebrew - at the very least, she can recognize the passages on the magic circle

-Has an interest in Halloween in particular, which is an odd syncretization of the Roman Catholic All-Saints Day and Samhain

-an interest in the Christian occult especially

-very young, perhaps too young to know what she does

In many ways she seems the "Rika" for Umineko, as some have noted.

In Higurashi, we had Rika as a Shinto priestess central to the story, and Higurashi's central theme - endlessly re-living the same life over and over until the "true resolution" is found - very closely mirrors the idea of reincarnation in Buddhism. Higurashi draws very heavily in this sense upon Far Eastern religion.

Umineko still retains some of these Eastern elements, but I think Western religion plays a much bigger role. One key theme that keeps cropping up in Umineko is the idea of "resurrection". In this sense then, Maria steps into the same role as Rika - not as a shrine priestess representing Japanese Shinto and Buddhism, cycling through the same event over and over, but a faithful and pure believer (I hesitate to use "nun") representing Western Christianity (or at the very least, Western Catholicism).

Maria/Christianity seeks to create a miracle from belief in a higher power, whereas Rika/Buddhism was able to create a miracle and "ascend" by repeating things over and over, both of these characters mirroring the mechanism of salvation (the soteriological (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soteriology) strategy) of their respective religions.

One wonders, if like Bernkastel, Maria might be able to become a witch... Seeing as Eva has become one I wonder if I've already figured out Episode 4...

This has big ramifications I feel for both points of view - both the anti-fantasy and anti-mystery crowd.
Whether you are inclined to believe the fantastical elements are real or not, Maria *is* the strongest support in either case. Her character is set up around belief and faith in the impossible, which makes her an important character in either theory - in anti-fantasy because she will believe anything she is told, and in anti-mystery because her belief is one of the prime power sources that Beatrice draws upon.

Whew, that was a lot of words. Here's the fast version.
TL;DR -
Maria in Umineko = Rika in Higurashi --> similar role

Rika in Higurashi = Shinto/Buddhism (shrine maiden) = reincarnation over and over to get true end
Maria in Umineko = Catholicism (name; Virgin Mary) = belief in miracles/miraculous beings/(each other?) to get the true end.

[Marion]

Again I don't think Maria is exactly like Rika or that she remembers past events. She knows about the ceremony because "Beatrice" told her about it and she can easily infer what will happen in the letter. Besides Maria doesn't want everyone to live like Rika does. She WANTS Beatrice to complete the ceremony, so she can go to the Golden Land. If anything Rika and Maria are complete opposite roles.

Rika wants to see everyone with a happy resolution
Maria wants to see Beatrice revive, everyone die and then go to the Golden Land (Heaven?)

[vendredi]

Again I don't think Maria is exactly like Rika or that she remembers past events. She knows about the ceremony because "Beatrice" told her about it and she can easily infer what will happen in the letter. Besides Maria doesn't want everyone to live like Rika does. She WANTS Beatrice to complete the ceremony, so she can go to the Golden Land. If anything Rika and Maria are complete opposite roles.

Rika wants to see everyone with a happy resolution
Maria wants to see Beatrice revive, everyone die and then go to the Golden Land (Heaven?)

I'm certainly not arguing they're "the same" in the sense of experiencing the exact same thing, but rather, that they play a similar role in representing the core themes in each of the games - it's a thematic argument on how the story and plot are structured, and how each game is actually rather marvelously constructed along religious themes.

"Repetition" is the dominant theme for Higurashi, strongly represented in Rika, while "Resurrection", (or perhaps "belief in a higher power"?) is the dominant theme for Umineko, represented by Maria - and these themes are reinforced by the religious imagery and iconography that surround each: Higurashi is predominantly Shinto, while Umineko is much more strongly Catholic.

*edit* Not sure if I'm being 100% clear, so I'll give it one more shot:
The central tenet in Buddhism is self-improvement - reincarnating and endlessly repeating the same existence until you learn from your mistakes and live "correctly" and reach enlightenment/salvation. This is represented very well by Rika's experience in Higurashi.

The central tenet in Catholic Christianity, on the other hand - is faith and trust in a higher power, namely, God, who then grants salvationon. There's also the whole debate about the relation between faith and works, but that's a theological tussle for another time. We can see this theme represented in Umineko by Maria's relationship in Beatrice - she puts all of her faith in this seemingly divine higher power than can accomplish all miracles.

I am, of course, grossly oversimplifying each and their are countless variations, but I simply wanted to point out how the character of Maria makes Umineko feel so very thematically different from Higurashi.

[Kaisos Erranon]

One wonders, if like Bernkastel, Maria might be able to become a witch... Seeing as Eva has become one I wonder if I've already figured out Episode 4...


...I'd suggest you play Ep4, and soon.

[vendredi]

...I'd suggest you play Ep4, and soon.

Well... blast. Who needs sleep, anyway?

[Crontica]

Wow vendredi thats some really deep analogy there. I thought Maria was more like Hanyuu since the representation of Rika is already there.

Maria like Hanyuu always faithful to her friend shy and mellow similar voice etc etc.

[Marion]

Really? I think you may be seeing that since they're voiced by the same VA :heh: Maria has never really reminded me much of Hanyuu - I don't think I can really compare any character in Umineko to Hanyuu (Jessica can be compared to Mion, Battler to Keiichi, George to Tomitake, etc)

[MeoTwister5]

I'm certainly not arguing they're "the same" in the sense of experiencing the exact same thing, but rather, that they play a similar role in representing the core themes in each of the games - it's a thematic argument on how the story and plot are structured, and how each game is actually rather marvelously constructed along religious themes.

"Repetition" is the dominant theme for Higurashi, strongly represented in Rika, while "Resurrection", (or perhaps "belief in a higher power"?) is the dominant theme for Umineko, represented by Maria - and these themes are reinforced by the religious imagery and iconography that surround each: Higurashi is predominantly Shinto, while Umineko is much more strongly Catholic.

*edit* Not sure if I'm being 100% clear, so I'll give it one more shot:
The central tenet in Buddhism is self-improvement - reincarnating and endlessly repeating the same existence until you learn from your mistakes and live "correctly" and reach enlightenment/salvation. This is represented very well by Rika's experience in Higurashi.

The central tenet in Catholic Christianity, on the other hand - is faith and trust in a higher power, namely, God, who then grants salvationon. There's also the whole debate about the relation between faith and works, but that's a theological tussle for another time. We can see this theme represented in Umineko by Maria's relationship in Beatrice - she puts all of her faith in this seemingly divine higher power than can accomplish all miracles.

I am, of course, grossly oversimplifying each and their are countless variations, but I simply wanted to point out how the character of Maria makes Umineko feel so very thematically different from Higurashi.

Personally one of the more prominent issues in Umineko should it be seen with a medieval Christianity lens would be the handling of witchcraft, or maybe perhaps the insinuation of the similarities between paganistic witchcraft and ancient Christitanity (which was considered a pagan religion before official Roman adoption). Maria undeniably represents that faith in the higher powers that be, which in this case for her is represented by Beato. The thing is, what of her own vengeance? Another central tenet of Christianity is forgiveness, not necessarily unconditional, especially when one believes that said person can be "saved." She obviously believes that her mother can be saved from her perceived "sins" but relishes so much the thought of extracting vengeance from her, if the recent anime episode reflects as such.

As for Buddhism, it may even be linked to Umineko as well. Karma and the entire reincarnation cycle might be seen in the concept of the eternal games, such that the power of reincarnation rests on Beato. Then again, is it for the sake of the eternal victims, for her, or for Battler? Maybe a combinarion of all that? I wanted to elaborate a theory of mine regarding Beato's intentions, especially since your Buddhism analogy is very accutely similar to my central motive theory that I really should get down into actual text, but I can't since you haven't finished episode 4.:heh:

Just as much you're Buddhism analogy is a lot of food for thought.:eyespin:

[yumiMitsuki]

i like maria and her uuness!!!she is a very cute loli!!

[Vegitto-kun]

And as Rosa said - they had no proof Maria was being abused other than being kept home along late nights. Maria herself never said she was being abused by Rosa. If she did THEN child services could do something. But she loves Rosa too much to fault her (even after Sakutaro is ripped to pieces she blames the black witch rather than her mother)
indeed look at satako she got abused way harder than maria and the child support didn't do anything


higurashi and umineko both confirm, child support are useless :D

[momobunny]

Wow vendredi thats some really deep analogy there. I thought Maria was more like Hanyuu since the representation of Rika is already there.

Maria like Hanyuu always faithful to her friend shy and mellow similar voice etc etc.

Other than their voices, Maria and Hanyuu are nothing alike. O.o;
Maria doesn't really have friends to be faithful to, the only one is Sakutaro and he's imaginary. All of her relatives at one point died and she showed no emotional attachment, not even to her mother in EP1.

Hanyuu is extremely different. Her relationship with Rika is totally different from Maria's relationship with anybody. Really, it's just the voice. o__o;

Really? I think you may be seeing that since they're voiced by the same VA :heh: Maria has never really reminded me much of Hanyuu - I don't think I can really compare any character in Umineko to Hanyuu (Jessica can be compared to Mion, Battler to Keiichi, George to Tomitake, etc)

Maybe... and this is a huge maybe... Shannon. But only because they both get nervous easily and are apologetic. Also, we don't even know enough about Shannon... a future episode could completely change things. Other than her, there's... Sakutaro maybe? Once again a huge maybe. They both share the whole "only one person can talk to me" thing and are adorable and have people swoon over them, they also get nervous easily and can be pretty pessimistic... I think? I know Hanyuu is pessimistic but I'm not sure about Sakutaro too much...

[suiryoku]

I'm not really crazy about Maria. Her constant Kira-like expressions were a little annoying, especially when characters I LIKE are getting killed off. Although she does seem to be making a degree of improvement, and I will say her mom is pretty despicable considering she treats her HORRIBLY at any given opportunity.

EDIT: I would like to disregard that statement now. Maria did something rather cool in 22. Can't say what, ya'll have to see for yourselves :P

Agreed. Episode 21 & 22 (mostly 22) made me look at maria quite differently. I admit, I still find her somewhat annoying making that "uu-uu" noise and crying all the time, but now I can understand why she's so emotional - so I can sort of bare with her now. As I said in another Umineko post that I made, I'm glad that she got some sort of happiness from that "cool" thing she did in episode 22. I felt some emotions myself watching that episode, also considering how rosa treats her all throughout the series, it really gave me a "feel good" vibe.

[suiryoku]

And as Rosa said - they had no proof Maria was being abused other than being kept home along late nights. Maria herself never said she was being abused by Rosa. If she did THEN child services could do something. But she loves Rosa too much to fault her (even after Sakutaro is ripped to pieces she blames the black witch rather than her mother)

They did have proof in episode 22, if you've seen it. Also, Rosa could still have gone to jail just of child neglect alone. Also, I don't believe Maria loves Rosa quite that much (again see ep. 22). Maria just wanted to have a false-happiness, but I don't think she really loved her mother.

[MeoTwister5]

Personally the first 4 arcs can't definitively prove the true feelings of mother and child for each other. Even the ones that have been released but won't be included this season still doesn't do it.

[vendredi]

Personally one of the more prominent issues in Umineko should it be seen with a medieval Christianity lens would be the handling of witchcraft, or maybe perhaps the insinuation of the similarities between paganistic witchcraft and ancient Christitanity (which was considered a pagan religion before official Roman adoption). Maria undeniably represents that faith in the higher powers that be, which in this case for her is represented by Beato. The thing is, what of her own vengeance? Another central tenet of Christianity is forgiveness, not necessarily unconditional, especially when one believes that said person can be "saved." She obviously believes that her mother can be saved from her perceived "sins" but relishes so much the thought of extracting vengeance from her, if the recent anime episode reflects as such.

As for Buddhism, it may even be linked to Umineko as well. Karma and the entire reincarnation cycle might be seen in the concept of the eternal games, such that the power of reincarnation rests on Beato. Then again, is it for the sake of the eternal victims, for her, or for Battler? Maybe a combinarion of all that? I wanted to elaborate a theory of mine regarding Beato's intentions, especially since your Buddhism analogy is very accutely similar to my central motive theory that I really should get down into actual text, but I can't since you haven't finished episode 4.:heh:

Just as much you're Buddhism analogy is a lot of food for thought.:eyespin:

Well I've cut my way through most of Episode 4, having only the Tea Parties to finish (and boy, did the pace of this one get me caught up in it), so go ahead with anything you're withholding. In any case, I'll take a moment with some of this new knowledge gleaned from Episode 4...

Good catch on the forgiveness aspect - I think Episode 4 really brings this other facet into the spotlight, very much so in Ange's journey to discover the past and her eventual confrontation with Lady Sumadera, Eva's ghost(?), and Beatrice herself.
Also notable is how "without love, the truth cannot be seen" - very much a religious message and I think it very strongly interlinks with the Christian themes so far; it's quite consistent. While we see Maria (or MARIA?) take out her frustrations and try to carry out her own vengeance, this is not presented in a favourable way - the reader understands that Maria/MARIA won't be satisfied taking her pain out on others.
We see this same dissatisfaction paralleled in Ange's confrontation with Lady Sumadera at the end of her journey when she arrives at Rokkenjima Island - rather than coming to hate her, she comes to understand her, and through understanding her is able to understand and finally forgive her Aunt Eva.
In this sense I think the Christian symbolism in Umineko is stronger than ever after Episode 4.


To address the Buddhist analogy in Umineko, one interesting thing pops up in Episode 4...

...namely, the revelation that there are two bottle messages. From the summary we get of the text, the realization is that the first message, that washed up for the fishermen, is a description of Episode 1 - the first game board, with 18 players.

The second message in the bottle, we discover during Episode 4, is the one the police found on the island, outlining Episode 2 with the appearance of Beatrice herself. (or was it the other way round? In any case, the fact of the matter is that these represent the first two episodes). I'm unclear as to what to make of this - are these messages from another kakera? I'm doubtful.

I am more convinced that the various iterations of the games simply represent the "Endless" possibilities that Beatrice is able to create within the single kakera - thus, unlike Higurashi we do not actually have any sort of dimension hopping, time resets, or the like (save for the one exception of Ange)- all the various games (except the third) are simply Beato herself presenting various counterfactual scenarios that are played out (whether with magic, or just in the minds of Battler, etc. - however you want to slice it anti-mystery or anti-fantasy wise).

The first two games, our introduction to the situation, simply are the texts of the two bottle messages; the third game results in the kakera with ANGE (the one exception); and the fourth game onward will be scenarios devised by Beato herself.

With this in mind, I am more inclined to regard the multiple games as Purgatory, rather than reincarnation - we have the stakes of Purgatory after all, each of the victims succumbing to one of these deadly sins on the road to the "Golden Land". But I suppose purgatory vs. reincarnation might simply be a matter of semantics; both concepts imply that humans get a second chance after death - which points to some common ground between Buddhists and Catholics.

Protestants are unfortunately left all by their lonesome (seeing as the reject a large number of Catholic doctrines), but perhaps that might be asking too much of a Japanese game. The amount of religious reference (and used properly, at that) is already mind-boggling.


As for Beato herself... this is quickly going all over and perhaps we should move this to the Episode 4 thread, but I'll have some quick notes here and pre-empt your thoughts, perhaps:

Beato herself seems to be fighting for her existence itself, and seems to be convinced that she is forever trapped in this game - LambdaDelta will not allow her to win and let her move on, but rather seeks to keep her stuck in the game for her amusement (and maybe to force Bern to stay? Oh Lambda, you could just ask nicely if you wanted to play).

[MeoTwister5]

Well I've cut my way through most of Episode 4, having only the Tea Parties to finish (and boy, did the pace of this one get me caught up in it), so go ahead with anything you're withholding. In any case, I'll take a moment with some of this new knowledge gleaned from Episode 4...

Good catch on the forgiveness aspect - I think Episode 4 really brings this other facet into the spotlight, very much so in Ange's journey to discover the past and her eventual confrontation with Lady Sumadera, Eva's ghost(?), and Beatrice herself.
Also notable is how "without love, the truth cannot be seen" - very much a religious message and I think it very strongly interlinks with the Christian themes so far; it's quite consistent. While we see Maria (or MARIA?) take out her frustrations and try to carry out her own vengeance, this is not presented in a favourable way - the reader understands that Maria/MARIA won't be satisfied taking her pain out on others.
We see this same dissatisfaction paralleled in Ange's confrontation with Lady Sumadera at the end of her journey when she arrives at Rokkenjima Island - rather than coming to hate her, she comes to understand her, and through understanding her is able to understand and finally forgive her Aunt Eva.
In this sense I think the Christian symbolism in Umineko is stronger than ever after Episode 4.


To address the Buddhist analogy in Umineko, one interesting thing pops up in Episode 4...

...namely, the revelation that there are two bottle messages. From the summary we get of the text, the realization is that the first message, that washed up for the fishermen, is a description of Episode 1 - the first game board, with 18 players.

The second message in the bottle, we discover during Episode 4, is the one the police found on the island, outlining Episode 2 with the appearance of Beatrice herself. (or was it the other way round? In any case, the fact of the matter is that these represent the first two episodes). I'm unclear as to what to make of this - are these messages from another kakera? I'm doubtful.

I am more convinced that the various iterations of the games simply represent the "Endless" possibilities that Beatrice is able to create within the single kakera - thus, unlike Higurashi we do not actually have any sort of dimension hopping, time resets, or the like (save for the one exception of Ange)- all the various games (except the third) are simply Beato herself presenting various counterfactual scenarios that are played out (whether with magic, or just in the minds of Battler, etc. - however you want to slice it anti-mystery or anti-fantasy wise).

The first two games, our introduction to the situation, simply are the texts of the two bottle messages; the third game results in the kakera with ANGE (the one exception); and the fourth game onward will be scenarios devised by Beato herself.

With this in mind, I am more inclined to regard the multiple games as Purgatory, rather than reincarnation - we have the stakes of Purgatory after all, each of the victims succumbing to one of these deadly sins on the road to the "Golden Land". But I suppose purgatory vs. reincarnation might simply be a matter of semantics; both concepts imply that humans get a second chance after death - which points to some common ground between Buddhists and Catholics.

Protestants are unfortunately left all by their lonesome (seeing as the reject a large number of Catholic doctrines), but perhaps that might be asking too much of a Japanese game. The amount of religious reference (and used properly, at that) is already mind-boggling.


As for Beato herself... this is quickly going all over and perhaps we should move this to the Episode 4 thread, but I'll have some quick notes here and pre-empt your thoughts, perhaps:

Beato herself seems to be fighting for her existence itself, and seems to be convinced that she is forever trapped in this game - LambdaDelta will not allow her to win and let her move on, but rather seeks to keep her stuck in the game for her amusement (and maybe to force Bern to stay? Oh Lambda, you could just ask nicely if you wanted to play).

From this point it is high time that I answer this with my central motives theory, which I will bring out later this week in the game spoilers thread since it has far more room for discussion, but it'll have to wait until my exams finish.:eyespin:

[Abashi]

Can we have a topic for Rosa (Maria's Mom)?

[SilverSyko]

Can we have a topic for Rosa (Maria's Mom)?

Allow me to direct you to this thread:

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=90603

[momobunny]

Can we have a topic for Rosa (Maria's Mom)?

Even though there's arguably more to say about her than George, Shannon, Bernkastel, and Lambdadelta throughout the first 4 episodes... she's already grouped together with the rest of the adults... so I'm guessing that's a no unfortunately. owo;

[rogerpepitone]

Something that's bothered me:
In Ep. 1, early Oct. 5, when Maria wakes and Rosa isn't in her room, Maria is extremely upset. When she later learns that Rosa is dead, Maria doesn't care that much.

[Ronove]

Something that's bothered me:
In Ep. 1, early Oct. 5, when Maria wakes and Rosa isn't in her room, Maria is extremely upset. When she later learns that Rosa is dead, Maria doesn't care that much.

I guess she really believes in Beatrice and the epitaph? Because of the sign of Rosa's death, she most likely believes that she will meet with her at the Golden Land as well?

Look at me, I sound like another Ange/Maria.

[Judoh]

Just something I thought of.... are there Synagogues in japan? I know there are christian churches in japan, but I' m not sure about synagogues. The reason I ask is because if maria was visiting a secret Rabbi than it would explain why she can read Hebrew.

Of course maybe she only needed to understand enough to read her notes and understand bible verses.

Hebrew actually wouldn't be as complicated as japanese for her to learn. Unlike Japanese that has many varying symbols for different words 100's in fact. Hebrew has a 22 letter alphabet and would be easier IMO to learn.

on topic:

I really like Maria as a character even though I find her annoying. Actually the reason I like her is BECAUSE she's annoying. The more I hate her the more I want to know about her.

[Usami_Haru]

I think there is a synagogue in Tokyo but I'm not enterily sure...

I think that she learnt it from books, it is also possible that she actually dosent know it at all but have memorized the meanings of all circles.

[Abashi]

uuu - uuu -uuu

[rogerpepitone]

She was already familiar with those particular circles. They were all shown in her notebook at one point. Most likely either:
- Maria's Beatrice taught them to her with the intention of using in the murders.
- the killer used them in the murders because they were in Maria's notebook.

[Maria-Chwan]

I think this is obvious by now but I really adore Maria-Chan!

Uuu~

As obvious as it is, it's also hard to see since I've been dead for so long. I LOVE Maria so much, if she was real I'd want her to be my little sister.

Of course, that being said... If Maria-Chan was my baby sister then I wouldn't be able to be with my Battler-Kun, so it's really hard to decide... Ushiromiya Moria... Yea, I made an OC who's Maria's older sister... Yea... *Obsession* Hehehehehe... :heh:

[Smeckledorf]

Just something I thought of.... are there Synagogues in japan? I know there are christian churches in japan, but I' m not sure about synagogues. The reason I ask is because if maria was visiting a secret Rabbi than it would explain why she can read Hebrew.

Of course maybe she only needed to understand enough to read her notes and understand bible verses.

Hebrew actually wouldn't be as complicated as japanese for her to learn. Unlike Japanese that has many varying symbols for different words 100's in fact. Hebrew has a 22 letter alphabet and would be easier IMO to learn.

on topic:

I really like Maria as a character even though I find her annoying. Actually the reason I like her is BECAUSE she's annoying. The more I hate her the more I want to know about her.

Well, there is the likelihood that Maria hung out with the same person who is drawing these circles at every family conference. I am pretty sure these exact circles are written down somewhere in Maria's bag. I mean when she goes 'crazy mode' with her eyes both 3 inches in diameter she seems to be repeating something from memory instead of thinking about it. Like a parot.
Pretty much what roger posted.

[Jan-Poo]

I strongly doubt that Maria can read hebrew. She just happens to know the meaning of those specific words. Her character TIPS state that she is very good at memorizing that sort of stuff.

[Leafsnail]

Shealso learnt a bunch of bible passages off by heart, apparently.

[Usami_Haru]

I used to do those kind of things a lot when I was small, I was famous of my ability to recite shor documentary films about animals.

[Spartanz1170]

The one thing I remember about Maria the most was ~UUUUU~~UUUUU~~UUUUU~~UUUUU~~UUUUU~~UUUUU~~UUUUU~~ UUUUU~~UUUUU~~UUUUU~~UUUUU~~UUUUU~~UUUUU~~UUUUU~~U UUUU~~UUUUU~~UUUUU~~UUUUU~

and the occasional slapping of Rosa, the best mom ever :D

[Leafsnail]

Disturbingly, Rosa remins me a lot of how my own mother used to be. Hmm...

[Dreams of Destiny]

It's so adorable when Maria starts say Uuuu..uuu, another thing I like about her is her other dark side double personality, there's nothing more effing cooler than a innocent looking child with a inner demon that can rape anyone's mind.

[Disz]

Well...Maria is.....special. >_>

I don't really like her,and I like her at the same time.

I'm pretty sure she's the only one who 100% believes in Beatrice.

[Dr. Casey]

Maria's one of the best characters in Umineko, and in some respects the kindest and noblest.

[winter 923]

Her uu- uu- really annoyed me till they showed her grimoire after that it was "daaaaw that's cute"
One of the few Beatrice believers which is a big + point. Maybe a little bit too into Beatrice and emotionsless to the dead but that only rises her creepy value :D

[Disz]

People really like her that much...?

I mean...she doesn't really..you know...do much..

[littlegal100]

Well to each to their own as some people would say ^^ Rosa also doesn't do much in the novels yet she's insanely popular so...yeah.

Besides Maria does have an active role at least in the first 4 arcs.

[Disz]

The only time I can say ''Woah'' to Maria is when she destroys Rosa.That caught me off guard.

But when I mean she doesn't do much,I mean she isn't evil.She hasn't killed anyone or been in suspicion.(Killing Rosa was a fantasy scene)

Besides,Rosa may not have done ''much'',but to all anime viewers, she was the who silenced all the ''Uu's'',and made us ''Awe''.She destroyed my least favorite character ''Sakutaro''.She's pure awesome.

[littlegal100]

Well yeah Maria isn't evil at all. nor would she be anywhere close to a possible culprit or even an accomplice IMO. Although frankly that shoudn't affect her likability with the fans ^^


Besides,Rosa may not have done ''much'',but to all anime viewers, she was the who silenced all the ''Uu's'',and made us ''Awe''.She destroyed my least favorite character ''Sakutaro''.She's pure awesome.

She was awesome at the end of episode 2 (Rosa musou!!) Although too bad she's too much of a failmum to be very likable after that (atleast for me):heh:

[Judoh]

Well yeah Maria isn't evil at all. nor would she be anywhere close to a possible culprit or even an accomplice IMO. Although frankly that shoudn't affect her likability with the fans ^^

Well I disagree about her not being an accomplice. Unless you mean in murder. There are several instances where she probably is involved in somebody else's plot.

[littlegal100]

Well I disagree about her not being an accomplice. Unless you mean in murder. There are several instances where she probably is involved in somebody else's plot.

When I said 'accomplice' I did mean an accomplice for the murder act. I really can't see it. Although I'm not going to deny her possible involvement (whether intentional or not) in other schemes related to the whole incident.

[Disz]

I'm almost 100% sure she's being used.''Beatrice'' the culprit probably has been planning this ''game'' for a long time,so she probably toyed with Maria's mind to make it so she can fully creep people out at the time and make them believe in witches.Pretty much like telling one kid ''Santa died D:'' and making them learn about how santa ''died'' and when it's Christmas,that kid would surely tell everyone at the party.With all the commotion,the culprit would MURDE-steal presents.Then again the kid would just be asked who told her,and she would say the name.But in this case,the culprit went an extra level and dressed up and used the alias ''Beatrice''.

[pikablu]

Well yeah Maria isn't evil at all. nor would she be anywhere close to a possible culprit or even an accomplice IMO. Although frankly that shoudn't affect her likability with the fans ^^

She was awesome at the end of episode 2 (Rosa musou!!) Although too bad she's too much of a failmum to be very likable after that (atleast for me):heh:

What if Rosa isn't actually abusing Maria at all? What if Maria is just imagining it? I mean Battler himself has never witnessed Rosa treating Maria badly (maybe a little shouting, but I'm talking about the more harsh stuff like slapping her or something) + it's often just secluded moments between the two, so you can't discount the fact that maybe Rosa is quite nice. And unfortunately that would include the musou scene at the end of epi 2.

Also as for Episode 4:

At the end of the magic scene with Rosa being killed with Maria, it ends with Maria literally waking up as though that all was a dream, meaning what if Maria's done it before, who's to say she hasn't constantly been doing it

Well I disagree about her not being an accomplice. Unless you mean in murder. There are several instances where she probably is involved in somebody else's plot.

I so agree like with that, check out this (only if you've completely watched the first four episodes), that's why I don't think she could be discredited as being a culprit:

With Nanjo + Kumasawa + Genji's murders of Episode 1: Maria was not the killer as said by Beatrice, but I think Maria was possibly involved, but not as the killer, but maybe an accomplice, she could have hid the guns and locked the door/window (wherever the culprit escaped from)

I'm almost 100% sure she's being used.''Beatrice'' the culprit probably has been planning this ''game'' for a long time,so she probably toyed with Maria's mind to make it so she can fully creep people out at the time and make them believe in witches.Pretty much like telling one kid ''Santa died D:'' and making them learn about how santa ''died'' and when it's Christmas,that kid would surely tell everyone at the party.With all the commotion,the culprit would MURDE-steal presents.Then again the kid would just be asked who told her,and she would say the name.But in this case,the culprit went an extra level and dressed up and used the alias ''Beatrice''.

The only problem with that is that Beatrice doesn't seem to be 'evil' as such...I suspect that if Beatrice was really just trying to hurt Maria in any way, then she wouldn't have spent so much time with her and made Maria love her so much. It just seems unnatural for her to do something like that. Maria may have been used as an accomplice unknowningly true...but I don't think the culprit would have tried to tarnish Maria's personality.

[Bluemail]

What if Rosa isn't actually abusing Maria at all? What if Maria is just imagining it? I mean Battler himself has never witnessed Rosa treating Maria badly (maybe a little shouting, but I'm talking about the more harsh stuff like slapping her or something) + it's often just secluded moments between the two, so you can't discount the fact that maybe Rosa is quite nice. And unfortunately that would include the musou scene at the end of epi 2.
Battler saw Rosa slapping Maria in the very first episode... She did that in EP2 after she came back with the gun, though that wasn't in the anime. And was going to slap Maria in the servant's room before Battler stopped her (if I recall correctly). Though this all except the first one in the rose garden happened after the speculated "switch" to 'Rosa' in EP2. :D
Oh now I remember something I want to post in the speculations thread...

[Disz]

Contrary to popular belief,using someone doesn't neccecarily mean hurting them.And I also don't think Beatrice is eevil persay,but still very troubled.She didn't fake liking Maria,she just had to use someone vaunerable with innocence.Maria.

[UsagiTenpura]

Meh Battler smacks Maria plenty by himself in arc 1.
There doesn't need to be Rosa around. Maybe Maria is aware of how annoying she is and that's why she doesn't hate her mother...

[Nipah Neko Kisa]

The way I see it, a lot of the Anime-Only Fans compare her to Rena, by either saying

"Maria-Chan is so cute! Like Rena!" or "She's a wannabe Rena!"

However, I see Maria as a totally different character than Rena. I can relate to her in alot of ways and her personality is reasonable, considering the treatment she receives from Rosa. She's really a kind character. As long as she isn't completely and utterly selfish or OVER THE TOP MOE, I like her just fine~

I find the fact that she can create 1 from 0 very interesting for her character~ 8D

[SonozakiUshiromiya]

And as Rosa said - they had no proof Maria was being abused other than being kept home along late nights. Maria herself never said she was being abused by Rosa. If she did THEN child services could do something. But she loves Rosa too much to fault her (even after Sakutaro is ripped to pieces she blames the black witch rather than her mother)

I agree they had no case on the abuse,:frustrated: but the social worker was thrown around the room like a rag doll:heh:. You'd think that's a clear cut case of assault.:(

Battler saw Rosa slapping Maria in the very first episode... She did that in EP2 after she came back with the gun, though that wasn't in the anime. And was going to slap Maria in the servant's room before Battler stopped her (if I recall correctly). Though this all except the first one in the rose garden happened after the speculated "switch" to 'Rosa' in EP2. :D

You know what gets me, when we are shown the abuse in the rose garden(eps 1 & 2), there's ALWAYS a witness(ep1: Battler, Jessica, and George; ep2: Kanon).

[Leafsnail]

I think Ryukushi has something against social workers. I mean... always presented as so inept and useless (surely an obvious case of assault is enough evidence...?).

[Judoh]

I think Ryukushi has something against social workers. I mean... always presented as so inept and useless (surely an obvious case of assault is enough evidence...?).

Well he spent a big chunk of Minagoroshi's staffroom apologizing for how he portrayed the child consultation center in Higurashi, and saying that they're not really like that...

[beatler556]

I don't like Maria much. She's too annoying and that uu~ sound drives me crazy.

[C-chan]

She did annoyed me at first. But she was really cute and her attitude of forgiving people over and over again is really good. She may be creepy at times but I love the way she speaks whenever she turns into 'that' state. She speaks like an adult which makes her unique among the cousins.

[Linkin Battler]

I'm almost 100% sure she's being used.''Beatrice'' the culprit probably has been planning this ''game'' for a long time,so she probably toyed with Maria's mind to make it so she can fully creep people out at the time and make them believe in witches.Pretty much like telling one kid ''Santa died D:'' and making them learn about how santa ''died'' and when it's Christmas,that kid would surely tell everyone at the party.With all the commotion,the culprit would MURDE-steal presents.Then again the kid would just be asked who told her,and she would say the name.But in this case,the culprit went an extra level and dressed up and used the alias ''Beatrice''.

Imho Maria is being used by Beatrice, it's sufficient to see the way she acts when people die: she doesn't mind it for the simple reason she is convinced everyone will resurrect in the Golden Land praising her because she was right - while everyone else were wrong - and being happy, as Beatrice (I mean a character, probably Shannon, who disguises herself as Beatrice) told her. That is why she does not worry for everyone else's death. Also, imho she is connected with the culprit: the only person present in both the two scene where a letter appears without anyone knowing where it came from is Maria and I don't think that could be a coincidence. Also, in the second scene (Rosa, Battler and Maria in the parlor) she is very disappointed for the fact that they are quarrelling because of the letter instead of believing in magic, as she expected (or better, as the culprit, the one representing Beatrice, told her), while she cannot say it was her putting the letter (because obviously Beato told her absolutely not to do it.

[Mihara Yuki]

Even with cuteness and forgiving isn't giving me much reason why I should like Maria.
I just dislike her 'uu' ,and I think Maria is suspicious enough to become culprit (alright...maybe she was an accomplice because of her age :uhoh:)

[AuraTwilight]

It's pretty much impossible for Maria to be a murderer due to her fanatic belief that a supernatural being is responsible.

[Cao Ni Ma]

It's pretty much impossible for Maria to be a murderer due to her fanatic belief that a supernatural being is responsible.

Dont discard the probability of a character being the culprit just because of how they act, because of their age or gender. Eliminating a person from a list of potential culprits should only be done after all the evidence is presented and only if it that evidence exonerates that person. I still have a lot of unanswered questions regarding Maria and in my view she's pretty high on the list of possible culprits or at the very least an accomplice.

[Leafsnail]

Maria sticks with Battler almost all the time, though.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Maria sticks with Battler almost all the time, though.

Well of course, remember, as long as you hold her hand nothing bad will happen to you. If only Rosa had held her hand instead of the gun and the gold maybe she would have survived... dont worry Rosa, you solved one of the riddles but Maria solved them all...

[AuraTwilight]

Dont discard the probability of a character being the culprit just because of how they act, because of their age or gender. Eliminating a person from a list of potential culprits should only be done after all the evidence is presented and only if it that evidence exonerates that person. I still have a lot of unanswered questions regarding Maria and in my view she's pretty high on the list of possible culprits or at the very least an accomplice.

Pieces are unable to act outside of their character; in other words, we can take the characterizations of everyone on the island as factual. If you're going to insist that Maria is knowingly implicit in the murderers, you're tantamount to saying she's aware that these murders aren't being done by Beatrice, which pretty much unravels every single piece of character development she's ever been given.

In other words, it's loveless and antithetical to the information we've been given. The only way Maria can be involved is if she is witlessly, unknowingly helping the murderer without being aware of the real consequences of her actions, which is consistent with her presented behavior of innocently reading threatening letters and the like.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Pieces are unable to act outside of their character; in other words, we can take the characterizations of everyone on the island as factual. If you're going to insist that Maria is knowingly implicit in the murderers, you're tantamount to saying she's aware that these murders aren't being done by Beatrice, which pretty much unravels every single piece of character development she's ever been given.

In other words, it's loveless and antithetical to the information we've been given. The only way Maria can be involved is if she is witlessly, unknowingly helping the murderer without being aware of the real consequences of her actions, which is consistent with her presented behavior of innocently reading threatening letters and the like.

Maria has though fervently protected the notion that magic exists and will do everything in her power to try to convince people of it. Magic cannot exist unless someone sees it at such, so she forces people to believe in it with closed rooms and the like.

I know this is meta and isn't written in the EPs so far, but the Stakes have the names and sins attributed by them by a certain witch hunter. That certain witch hunter states that a girl could not be a witch if she was younger than 12... but of course this law shouldn't be strict, if the child is precocious enough and proves that she's a witch...

[AuraTwilight]

Maria has though fervently protected the notion that magic exists and will do everything in her power to try to convince people of it. Magic cannot exist unless someone sees it at such, so she forces people to believe in it with closed rooms and the like.

Maria's characterization, and general physical ability, does not include the ability to perform or orchestrate murders. She's no Stewie Griffin or anything, and she acts as basically one big ass red herring that you guys are just falling for simply because of surface eeriness. The fact of the matter is that despite her behavior, Maria is presented as a reasonably kind-hearted individual who doesn't condone or tolerate people being mean. The only reason she puts up with the murders on Rokkenjima is because she thinks Beatrice will revive them in the Golden Land; if she's orchestrating them herself, then this can't hold.

I know this is meta and isn't written in the EPs so far, but the Stakes have the names and sins attributed by them by a certain witch hunter. That certain witch hunter states that a girl could not be a witch if she was younger than 12... but of course this law shouldn't be strict, if the child is precocious enough and proves that she's a witch...

The same witch hunter also said that one became a witch through sexual consort with demons, so...yea. I wouldn't really pay any mind to anything that's not included in the actual novel, or else that leads us to the slippery slope of trying to solve the mystery with Mystery Rules that were excluded and the like.

Besides, Beatrice herself is the one who keeps priding herself on the closed rooms she creates. Is she just plagiarizing Maria? :P Some friend.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Try to find a reason as to why Beatrice would take credit for the actions of a human even though the evidence points to the human. To the point that she would challenge anyone and risk her own life to defend that person.

Re-read episode two, theres one clear place where she could have thrown her friend under the bus and took a nasty hit for it.

Also Im not convinced by her eeriness, Im convinced by her actions. All of the times a hidden letter pops up she's a possible candidate as the person who dropped it. Dont ask yourself who dropped it though, ask yourself WHY the person dropped it. It always comes up as a sheep and wolf puzzle of separating people that have holed up in a place. In EP3 it wasn't a letter, she personally led Rosa out of the house by throwing a tantrum of which she got over after Rosa agreed to check on the flower.

[AuraTwilight]

Try to find a reason as to why Beatrice would take credit for the actions of a human even though the evidence points to the human. To the point that she would challenge anyone and risk her own life to defend that person.

Re-read episode two, theres one clear place where she could have thrown her friend under the bus and took a nasty hit for it.

That's not what I meant, and the last point was clearly in jest, but whatever.

Also Im not convinced by her eeriness, Im convinced by her actions. All of the times a hidden letter pops up she's a possible candidate as the person who dropped it. Dont ask yourself who dropped it though, ask yourself WHY the person dropped it. It always comes up as a sheep and wolf puzzle of separating people that have holed up in a place. In EP3 it wasn't a letter, she personally led Rosa out of the house by throwing a tantrum of which she got over after Rosa agreed to check on the flower.

Pfft, so what? Telling a nine year old girl to put a letter with a magic seal in it is one thing. Having that nine year old girl personally and deliberately orchestrate mass murder is different.

As for the rose thing, doesn't she pretty much do that in every universe regardless of circumstances? I hardly see how that's evidence of anything.

[Cao Ni Ma]

That's not what I meant, and the last point was clearly in jest, but whatever.



Pfft, so what? Telling a nine year old girl to put a letter with a magic seal in it is one thing. Having that nine year old girl personally and deliberately orchestrate mass murder is different.

As for the rose thing, doesn't she pretty much do that in every universe regardless of circumstances? I hardly see how that's evidence of anything.

Again, do not discard the probability of a person being the culprit because of age or gender. From the start the writer is trying to one up a lot of the classic mystery novels. He describes the sheer number of victims being higher than just about all of em, who's to say he's not trying to one up the age of the culprit as well?

Between you and me, I find a lot of similarities between Maria and Josephine!

[AuraTwilight]

I'm not discrediting her because of age or gender, I'm discrediting her because of her personality and belief system, which is only bolstered by the fact that despite her eccentric qualities, is still a fairly stereotypical nine year old child. That, and Maria was shown as a totally obvious "suspect" in the earlier arcs, and then was deconstructed to show us how harmless and victimized she actually is, instead of being a little antichrist. To reveal her as the culprit would not only be hack writing, but also completely trivialize and moot like....well, fuck, atleast half of Episode 4, atleast.

It's not "one upping" classic mystery novels to have a bigger shock twist. If it doesn't give a satisfying answer to the mysteries, and if it doesn't fit the characterization without invoking a "everything you learned about this character is a lie", then it's just a bullshit twist ending.

That, and Maria is with Battler at nearly all times, so if she's the "culprit", she somehow coerced someone else into killing for her. Who would possibly give into the demands of a nine year old? Make her as big of an evil genius as you want, but she has no power to coerce anyone into doing anything.

[Cao Ni Ma]

I'm not discrediting her because of age or gender, I'm discrediting her because of her personality and belief system, which is only bolstered by the fact that despite her eccentric qualities, is still a fairly stereotypical nine year old child. That, and Maria was shown as a totally obvious "suspect" in the earlier arcs, and then was deconstructed to show us how harmless and victimized she actually is, instead of being a little antichrist. To reveal her as the culprit would not only be hack writing, but also completely trivialize and moot like....well, fuck, atleast half of Episode 4, atleast.

It's not "one upping" classic mystery novels to have a bigger shock twist. If it doesn't give a satisfying answer to the mysteries, and if it doesn't fit the characterization without invoking a "everything you learned about this character is a lie", then it's just a bullshit twist ending.

That, and Maria is with Battler at nearly all times, so if she's the "culprit", she somehow coerced someone else into killing for her. Who would possibly give into the demands of a nine year old? Make her as big of an evil genius as you want, but she has no power to coerce anyone into doing anything.


Hohoho! Now you are getting some of the things I've been trying to pull from you. Who controls the four first game? Why would she have Maria and the servants survive for the better part of the first 2 games just to have them suddenly 'killed' outright in the 3rd game? Whats changed between the moment that Beatrice protects Maria by withholding a red truth that would have crushed Battler in the second game to the moment where she declared that the key never left her person in the 4th games climax? Why would she want people to solve the epitaph if she doesn't gain anything from it? What is Beatrice's roll throughout all of the games, if she doesn't exist? Why would she take someone else sin upon her?

Also regarding her ability to control people, all she needs is the headship. The furniture in this game has been shown to be quite loyal to the head. But I admit, its the biggest hurdle to my theory, thats why I stated thats she's either the culprit or an accomplice.

e- Also didn't episode 4 have Maria ripping her mother to pieces during a flash back? Or are you disregarding that because the detective didn't witness it? Come on now pseudo detective, dont pick your truths when its convenient! Im willing to change my 'truth' so long as newer ones are brought up. Im even willing to accept them altogether provided that theres enough evidence!

[AuraTwilight]

Hohoho! Now you are getting some of the things I've been trying to pull from you. Who controls the four first game? Why would she have Maria and the servants survive for the better part of the first 2 games just to have them suddenly 'killed' outright in the 3rd game? Whats changed between the moment that Beatrice protects Maria by withholding a red truth that would have crushed Battler in the second game to the moment where she declared that the key never left her person in the 4th games climax? Why would she want people to solve the epitaph if she doesn't gain anything from it? What is Beatrice's roll throughout all of the games, if she doesn't exist? Why would she take someone else sin upon her?

To answer in order: Beatrice; EP3 had the narrative of Eva-Beato hijacking everything; There is not necessarily a meaningful difference; Beato wants someone to inherit the gold instead of her because her true identity is furniture, and her characterization is that of someone who gambles and accepts any result even if it hurts her; Beato as a person exists, she's just not a blonde busty witch; Beatrice is a martyr who is villainizing herself so Battler hates her instead of his family, noblizing them as tragic heroes.

Also regarding her ability to control people, all she needs is the headship. The furniture in this game has been shown to be quite loyal to the head. But I admit, its the biggest hurdle to my theory, thats why I stated thats she's either the culprit or an accomplice.

I can accept her as an unwitting accomplice that doesn't know she's just helping a serial killer instead of a witch, but as the culprit, no way. For one thing, Maria's definitely never solved the Epitaph; else not only would she not interpret it so literally, but she most certainly would've given some of the gold to Rosa so she could be around more.

e- Also didn't episode 4 have Maria ripping her mother to pieces during a flash back? Or are you disregarding that because the detective didn't witness it? Come on now pseudo detective, dont pick your truths when its convenient! Im willing to change my 'truth' so long as newer ones are brought up. Im even willing to accept them altogether provided that theres enough evidence!

That sequence was a dream she had shortly after Sakutarou's destruction. It's not at all uncommon for children to have violent revenge fantasies when they have no other means of lashing out; this doesn't at all translate to actual homicidal feelings they'd actually carry out.

Child Psychology 101, fuck yeah. But anyway, that one instance is contradicted by multiple OTHER scenes, which are CHRONOLOGICALLY MORE RECENT, wherein Maria instead wants Rosa's love and keeps blaming her abuse on a Bad Witch. Fuck, in the same scene you're talking about, she even says, "you're just the Black Witch torturing Mama and me!"

So...you don't really have a case, there. Bipartisan Splitting of Parental Figures; more child psychology.

There's absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Maria is anything more than a nine year old girl with emotional underdevelopment and special needs. She's not Stewie Griffin.

[Cao Ni Ma]

To answer in order: Beatrice; EP3 had the narrative of Eva-Beato hijacking everything; There is not necessarily a meaningful difference; Beato wants someone to inherit the gold instead of her because her true identity is furniture, and her characterization is that of someone who gambles and accepts any result even if it hurts her; Beato as a person exists, she's just not a blonde busty witch; Beatrice is a martyr who is villainizing herself so Battler hates her instead of his family, noblizing them as tragic heroes.

I'll tell you my version of the truth, this truth hasn't be discussed in any of the previous games and following the basic formula of detective novels, it could be the final twist in the story.

Beatrice is protecting someone, she's protecting the culprit. The culprit is Maria. Beatrice might have a human counter part, this counterpart might be furniture, this counterpart is also protecting/serving Maria. Beatrice's actions in the second game regarding the Key in Maria's possession is proof, she could have used the red truth to say that the key never left Maria's possession during that scene but it would have made it obvious that Maria was at the very least an accomplice. So she weathered the blow and marched on.

Beatrice becomes aware that Maria is the only person to survive the completion of the last two games, if the reader believes that Knox's and Dyne's laws apply to the game (foreshadow at the intro of the second game), then he can solve the whodunnit right there. Episode 3 has the servants and Rosa, Maria dying off early in the game. This puts that theory to doubt. Beatrice Answers in red that Rosa and Maria died and ronove states they where killed by others. I propose that Maria's 'death' is reversible (clinical death) do to the nature of her 'murder' and because at the time that the red is used she said DIED and not DEAD (as in at the time of that the red was uttered she might be alive again). Her 'corpse' is later moved inside a room where its 'sealed'. The events where the doors and windows are locked after a person apparently moves out of the guess house could be explained with Maria re-locking them to make them appear as closed rooms.

I can actually go about and solve the rest of the third game using this thread of logic. I can also use similar logic to solve the rest of the games but Im too tired to keep going. Whether or not Im wright or wrong will be revealed in ep8. Which quite frankly I cant wait for.

[UsagiTenpura]

In arc 4 Ange considers that her own "sin" to Maria is as much a part of why this is all occuring as Battler's sin toward Beato.
A normal nine years old, no matter how much they are depraved of attention, would be horrified and scared by having people die around them (Maria constantly laughed very loudly even at others' misery). The scene at the end of arc 1 with Genji/Kumasawa/Nanjo's death, that's not how a normal child reacts, not even close to.
Now I'm not saying she's the culprit, but she's certainly not unrelated to everything.

[AuraTwilight]

Beatrice is protecting someone, she's protecting the culprit. The culprit is Maria. Beatrice might have a human counter part, this counterpart might be furniture, this counterpart is also protecting/serving Maria. Beatrice's actions in the second game regarding the Key in Maria's possession is proof, she could have used the red truth to say that the key never left Maria's possession during that scene but it would have made it obvious that Maria was at the very least an accomplice. So she weathered the blow and marched on.

This motive doesn't make any kind of sense given Beatrice's characterization in episodes 5 and onwards; while Maria is an "existence that Beatrice refuses to sully or diminish", Maria's character doesn't change even when Beatrice isn't the Gamemaster. Were Lambdadelta and Bernkastel protecting Maria, too? Moreover, what does that have to do with "Battler's Sin" being the cause of all the murders? Maria's effectively never met Battler before, since she didn't remember him from when she was three.

Maria being the culprit doesn't explain anything; it only raises further questions that would require cartoony answers.

Beatrice becomes aware that Maria is the only person to survive the completion of the last two games, if the reader believes that Knox's and Dyne's laws apply to the game (foreshadow at the intro of the second game), then he can solve the whodunnit right there. Episode 3 has the servants and Rosa, Maria dying off early in the game. This puts that theory to doubt. Beatrice Answers in red that Rosa and Maria died and ronove states they where killed by others. I propose that Maria's 'death' is reversible (clinical death) do to the nature of her 'murder' and because at the time that the red is used she said DIED and not DEAD (as in at the time of that the red was uttered she might be alive again). Her 'corpse' is later moved inside a room where its 'sealed'. The events where the doors and windows are locked after a person apparently moves out of the guess house could be explained with Maria re-locking them to make them appear as closed rooms.

That's some of the worst logic I've ever seen. It basically boils down to "Let me just ignore these Reds with a workaround and then speculate up this entire chain of events that isn't even the slightest bit alluded to in the vaguest sense." It's the same intellectual cheapery as Purupurupikoman, the only difference is you're using an introduced character instead of Cheesy Villain X with Convenient Plot Powers Y and Super Genius Gadgets Z.

Also, Maria's jawbone, lolololol.

In arc 4 Ange considers that her own "sin" to Maria is as much a part of why this is all occuring as Battler's sin toward Beato.
A normal nine years old, no matter how much they are depraved of attention, would be horrified and scared by having people die around them (Maria constantly laughed very loudly even at others' misery). The scene at the end of arc 1 with Genji/Kumasawa/Nanjo's death, that's not how a normal child reacts, not even close to.
Now I'm not saying she's the culprit, but she's certainly not unrelated to everything.

It's worth bearing in mind that since Maria believes that everyone will come right back to life, and she technically never turned around to see the bodies and such, there's no reason for her to be so wigged out.

As for Ange, she makes a lot of wrong assumptions. As much as I love the character, I wouldn't put TOO much stock in what she has to say. All I can think of is that because she hurt Maria's feelings, this lead to Sakutarou's destruction, which lead to Maria's investing her maternal needs in Beatrice, which lead to her being manipulated as a clueless patsy.

[Judoh]

Beatrice's actions in the second game regarding the Key in Maria's possession is proof, she could have used the red truth to say that the key never left Maria's possession during that scene but it would have made it obvious that Maria was at the very least an accomplice. So she weathered the blow and marched on.

How does this implicate Maria at all? The argument they had wasn't about Maria it was about the envelope in her handbag. His theory was that someone replaced the key with a fake and returned it later before Rosa opened it. Maria wasn't even part of the conversation save for the fact that she would've been tricked by the culprit in his scenario and how Battler's use of the word 'supervision' was too strict to make into a red.

I propose that Maria's 'death' is reversible (clinical death) do to the nature of her 'murder' and because at the time that the red is used she said DIED and not DEAD (as in at the time of that the red was uttered she might be alive again). Her 'corpse' is later moved inside a room where its 'sealed'. The events where the doors and windows are locked after a person apparently moves out of the guess house could be explained with Maria re-locking them to make them appear as closed rooms.

There is a red saying 'the 6 people Died instantly'. If 'Died' implied what you say it means it would have to apply to all of the servants as well not just Rosa and Maria. This episode and the one after it in particular show us that the red truth is time sensitive and it depends on context. The red you're talking about is being used in a past tense context while the word 'dead' was used in present tense.

[Cao Ni Ma]

How does this implicate Maria at all? The argument they had wasn't about Maria it was about the envelope in her handbag. His theory was that someone replaced the key with a fake and returned it later before Rosa opened it. Maria wasn't even part of the conversation save for the fact that she would've been tricked by the culprit in his scenario and how Battler's use of the word 'supervision' was too strict to make into a red.



There is a red saying 'the 6 people Died instantly'. If 'Died' implied what you say it means it would have to apply to all of the servants as well not just Rosa and Maria. This episode and the one after it in particular show us that the red truth is time sensitive and it depends on context. The red you're talking about is being used in a past tense context while the word 'dead' was used in present tense.

This morning, Rosa definitely took an envelope out of Maria's handbag, and thereby obtained the genuine key to the chapel

Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands!!

Battlers defense after this involved auto locks, people hiding inside the chapel and small bombs. But he never considered that Maria was even there to open or close the door. So either the door was never locked in the first place, in which case we suspect Rosa (taking the red truth literally, it never passed trough any hands to open or close it) or the door was locked and Maria must have opened and/or closed it. (taking the red truth figuratively, as in the door was locked and the key never left her possession)

We could have games where each of the culprit is different, Im fine with that. I just want the games to have the same culprit.

In regards to the died and dead thing, Died is a verb while dead is an adjective. That is the action of the servants dying happened instantly, their status is declared as dead (present) before hand as well. Maria and Rosa on the other hand aren't declared as dead (present) though until much later, we are told that they died. It would be pretty hard to bring back Rosa after getting impaled on a fence, Maria though was given a rather clean death and resuscitation is by no means a super power.

[Judoh]

This morning, Rosa definitely took an envelope out of Maria's handbag, and thereby obtained the genuine key to the chapel

Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands!!

Battlers defense after this involved auto locks, people hiding inside the chapel and small bombs. But he never considered that Maria was even there to open or close the door. So either the door was never locked in the first place, in which case we suspect Rosa (taking the red truth literally, it never passed trough any hands to open or close it) or the door was locked and Maria must have opened and/or closed it. (taking the red truth figuratively, as in the door was locked and the key never left her possession)

We could have games where each of the culprit is different, Im fine with that. I just want the games to have the same culprit.

In regards to the died and dead thing, Died is a verb while dead is an adjective. That is the action of the servants dying happened instantly, their status is declared as dead (present) before hand as well. Maria and Rosa on the other hand aren't declared as dead (present) though until much later, we are told that they died. It would be pretty hard to bring back Rosa after getting impaled on a fence, Maria though was given a rather clean death and resuscitation is by no means a super power.

Just because the chapel isn't locked doesn't mean that Rosa would automatically the culprit. Though that's not necessarily a bad thing. Rosa and the rest met with the culprit there if what we saw was right and she interfered for the whole rest of the episode.

As for the Died thing. Well we have a reason to using a verb here because it's in reference to an action. Being killed is an action. Being attacked via the instant definition is one also. It also helps that this is being translated from Japanese so we have other grammar problems here.

Resuscitation isn't impossible, but hiding it for that long wouldn't be an easy feat. And Maria isn't exactly shown to have patience. Murdering Nanjo at the end would also take some extraordinary talents with a gun that Maria just isn't foreshadowed to have either. Loading bullets in episode 2 doesn't count!

She's good at memorizing random bits of information, but so is everyone with an obscure hobby. If her thoughts were concealed I would agree with you, but Maria is pretty much an open book. She's only ever kept one secret from anyone and that's the identity of Beatrice, which would be rendered irrelevant and stupid under this theory of yours.

[AuraTwilight]

Also, there's the possibility that someone just told Maria to open the chapel and then go back to bed none the wiser.

Or that the chapel was never locked in the first place...

[rogerpepitone]

If Maria had locked the chapel door, I doubt the envelope would be sealed when Rosa retrieved the key the next day.

[Cao Ni Ma]

If Maria had locked the chapel door, I doubt the envelope would be sealed when Rosa retrieved the key the next day.

The envelope could have been resealed if she or someone that was with her had the head's ring.

[Leafsnail]

No matter how much you twist it, there's still "Maria has a perfect alibi for almost every murder" to consider.

[Cao Ni Ma]

No matter how much you twist it, there's still "Maria has a perfect alibi for almost every murder" to consider.

This could be said of nearly all the characters in this series, in fact, this could be said of nearly all suspects in the entirety of the detective mystery genre.

[Leafsnail]

This could be said of nearly all the characters in this series, in fact, this could be said of nearly all suspects in the entirety of the detective mystery genre.
No, not very many people stay with the detective for the entire possible timeframe of the murders. It'd be the equivalent of Watson being the culprit.

[Cao Ni Ma]

No, not very many people stay with the detective for the entire possible timeframe of the murders. It'd be the equivalent of Watson being the culprit.

In the chapel incident its less Watson and more Dr. Sheppard but yeah.:heh:

[Hullard]

Simple question: are Rosa and Maria supposed to have blond hair or brown hair? Most of the time it looks brown but sometimes it looks blond as well. Maria's looks almost definitely brown, but Rosa's is confusing. I've seen different sources say both, so I figured I'd ask here.

[AuraTwilight]

I'd just say it's this dirty blonde/brown for Rosa. Mostly brown, since blonde hair is supposed to be significant. Maria's hair is more reddish/brown, moreso red.

[immblueversion]

I'd say Maria is auburn and Rosa is light brown.

[Tsuki Aoi Usagi]

In the VN, did they ever state who Maria's father was?

[Jan-Poo]

Nope, we got a few info on his background, but he remains a faceless and unnamed man