View Full Version : Heavy, Deep, Profound.
supremebeing13
2004-02-29, 21:54
I just finished the liscensed series (yes i have the DVDs...) of Neon Genisis Evangelion. Including the movie. Geezum. I mean golly gee willickers. Anyone else feel totally stunned by the ending? Its like reading Seth or Sidhartha, or taking a *good* college-level philosophy class. It was like Peter F. Hamilitons "Hand of God." It was like ... it was awesome. Thats something thats highly lacking in the american movie department.
With stuff like this around Disney better get its act together. And no... K-Pax doesnt count guys.
Anyways, as im still touched by the ending of that great series, i must say, is there anything like that out there? In terms of anime? Anything so ... "stop all inane thought and center your being" kinda stuff out there?
I woulda put this under the Suggestions section, but its a multipurpose post. Im also asking peoples opinions. (O, i just remembered Akira... yes... Akira... i loved that one too... very profound.. mm...)
Disney doesn't have to worry about anything. Americans don't seem to want deep thought. They want singing animals. :uhoh:
Other "deep thought" anime I've liked are Gunslinger Girl, and Narutaru. You can't go wrong with Ghost in the Shell, either. The presentation in GItS itsn't that great, it's geared towards action but the philosophy gets tossed in there (note that I also didn'tlike the presentatin of NGE, I thought it was a great story poorly told).
RaXephon is supposed to be good but I haven't seen it yet.
supremebeing13
2004-02-29, 22:23
Hmmmm... I watched Ghost in the Shell.. good movie. Deep. I kinda forgot about it, lol, silly me. :) As for the other 2? Gunslinger Girl and Narutaru, tell you the truth im not so well versed in anime to pretend i'v heard of these. I shall take your word for it and download them as soon as bandwidth permits, lol. Thanks for suggestions!
Edit:
2... not 3, '2', lol.
babbito2k
2004-02-29, 22:31
Suggestions forum is the way to go with this one. Not everyone shares your opinion of Evangelion, as this thread illustrates. The success of Evangelion led to a spate of similar titles at that time, probably all of which are licensed. Most of them didn't seem that good to me.
I will name a couple of unlicensed shows which loosely fit the bill.
Twin Spica - SF series.
Avenger - SF series.
Hundred Stories - horror series.
St. Luminous Mission High School - mystery series.
Condor Hero - martial arts series.
There are threads for most of these in the fansubs forum or you can google for details.
I'm glad to hear you enjoyed the series and got your money's worth.
Jose GSG
2004-03-01, 00:49
Movies-
Akira (don't really need to say much)
Jin-Roh (if you've seen it you'd know)
Series-
Gunslinger Girl (very emotionally heavy; makes you wonder what is right and what is wrong)
SE: Lain (for obvious reasons)
Betterman (Not only is the science in the show pretty complex stuff, but the mystery behind Betterman and all the weird happenings is all quite profound)
I was going to put NGE in the list until I realized it's just more of one person's own misery instead of an actual anime using these symbolizations correctly to display something.
yeah_yeah_yeah
2004-03-01, 01:43
please tell me about what you found EVA that is so profound and heavy
i watched it and i didn't see anything that was particularly eye-opening
but i would be curious in knowing what other people think
To me, NGE was just mind-blowing, especially the characters. Main point of Evangelion isn't Angels or fight for humanity (last two episodes are proof of that).
Characters may first seem like any other anime: genki girl (Misato), shy girl (Rei), aggressive (Asuka) and weak male (Shinji) but there is something that Anno managed to do so that they are very multidimensional, and not just stereotypical.
Like like both endings, series and movie, they left me sitting in chair stunned "WTF just happened?" No other series or movie after that has affected me so deeply.
I would also recommend Haibane Renmei, it isn't as dark as Serial Experiment Lain.
So it wasn't deep at all, just confusing?
Jose GSG
2004-03-01, 05:37
Anyone with a basic understanding of Christianity will know there isn't much pertinence at all for it in NGE. Nobody knows for sure what Anno's intention was, but he was most likely trying for something different. Whether he is religiously confused or just wanted to mess around with different symbolizations and stories, he did what he did. There isn't much to say other than it's just the work of someone with a free-roaming imagination.
I think the stand-out recommendation in these circumstances has to be Serial Experiments Lain. (Already been mentioned, but deserves emphasis.) Most of the titles that one thinks of here have come in the decade following Evangelion, so it's possible to accuse them of copying, but in some cases that's unfair, it's more likely that Eva's success simply created a climate in which such ideas would be accepted rather than rejected by TV companies. Lain is certainly a title which you could never accuse of copying Eva, (at least not once you know how it arose), but more importantly it has similar virtues placed in a very different style. Like Eva it is not bound by the conventional rules of storytelling, it actively invites viewer interpretation and has many, many things in for this to be applied to, and it asks questions on the most fundamental levels. Everyone finds a different way of watching it, and gets something different out of it, but ultimately, if you find the "right" way of watching it, it can provoke a deeply personal and fundamental response.
Second on any such list I would place Revolutionary Girl Utena. On most levels, whilst longer and consequently containing more "lightness", this competes with Lain and Eva on an equal footing, although I am rather dubious as to whether it ultimately has a meaning which can be as satisfying. (I've only watched it one and a half times so far, so it's difficult to be conclusive.)
After this, you're really struggling for titles which work in similar areas. Angel's Egg should be mentioned, although very difficult to find, (we had a torrent here a while ago, but it isn't any more), and it doesn't even pretend to have any sort of conventional entertainment in it. Narutaru and Gunslinger Girl are both very fine stories, but Princess Tutu is clearly the best out of the more intellectual titles on AnimeSuki, though it doesn't really operate in the same areas. RahXephon is worth trying, but ultimately I think it appeals most to people who weren't quite satisfied with Eva, it takes what Eva superficially is and places it into a production based on conventional values, making it best for those who can't quite relate to anything too unconventional and who therefore don't tend to understand what Eva is doing, often misinterpreting features of its unique style as "flaws". Boogiepop Phantom is quite interesting, though perhaps not entirely new.
Shame on me, I forgot Lain. One of the first Anime shows I saw and the first one I bought. Definatly a good one.
I think the style and complex (in a good way) story telling of Boogiepop is what sets it apart from other shows. I didn't find anything very "deep, or profound" about it. It's a good watch, though.
supremebeing13
2004-03-01, 12:55
Serial Experiments Lain seems to be widely acepted and liked, i shall try to download that. (bandwidth permitting, lol)
As for those who doubt Neon Genisis Evangelion... yes, the mechs, characters... speedy blue car, fan.... heh. Its all good, it can all make up a decent, even above decent anime by itself, especially in the format it was presented. But what set NGE apart for me... well... the ending... was just spectacular. I just loved how it made you think about life, memories, how you exist, what creates your soul. The Christian beleifs and symbols were flavor but, to me, this show/movie weren't centered around christianity. (its still not totally known what is actually on the dead scrolls for one...) It just put the series in a context many of us familiarize ourselves with.
And although i dont agree with all the thoughts put forth by the directer (Agnostic, so im still uncertain what to beleive :) it certainly makes you think a little bit. Creation? Destruction? Humanitys conception, what makes you alive, how we are represented, how we perpetuate, what happens should some cataclismic event should wipe us all out. And many of us have thought about all these before, but even with those set in our ideals it does make us look at them from a different perspective. And it is this unique perspective that(i think) makes Neon Genisis Evangelion a Profoundly deep and heavy show + movie.
Btw, thanks for responses all, hehe.
Wandering A.I.
2004-03-01, 14:25
>please tell me about what you found EVA that is so profound and heavy
I've been through too many Eva threads to want to state my opinion anymore, but Ask John has a nice short answer ^^:
Can You Explain the Meaning of Evangelion? (http://www.animenation.net/news/askjohn.php?id=325)
And also this answer of his has an interesting comparison with Lain/etc regarding accessibility:
Why is Evangelion so Popular? (http://www.animenation.net/news/askjohn.php?id=313)
Btw, off topic but I hope all you Eva fans have written to ADV how they shouldn't use 20 somethings for the characters or at least begged them to keep some of the human interaction/finding a place in the world/etc themes besides just the action/fighting bit. ^^
Lain is a good series
if you wanna be reeeeal confused, you could watch what i think is THE most blatant EVA rip off in history: Dual! Parallel Trouble Adventure (everything from the characters to the mechs can be related to eva)
ChibiDusk
2004-03-01, 14:43
Lain Lain Lain, thought I would say it some more :)
Definatly watch this, or, watch it 3 times so you even vaguely understand it :D
i would say:
Angels egg
Patlabor 1
Patlabor 2
Patlabor 3
Akira
Ghost in the shell
Rahxephon, the series and the movie - if u like nge
Cowboy Bebop the movie (kinda)
Id get started on seeing them, there all classics :) .Well as far as im concerned :D
>please tell me about what you found EVA that is so profound and heavy
I've been through too many Eva threads to want to state my opinion anymore, but Ask John has a nice short answer ^^:
Can You Explain the Meaning of Evangelion? (http://www.animenation.net/news/askjohn.php?id=325)
And also this answer of his has an interesting comparison with Lain/etc regarding accessibility:
Why is Evangelion so Popular? (http://www.animenation.net/news/askjohn.php?id=313)
Btw, off topic but I hope all you Eva fans have written to ADV how they shouldn't use 20 somethings for the characters or at least begged them to keep some of the human interaction/finding a place in the world/etc themes besides just the action/fighting bit. ^^
That link : IMO it is big time OVER-ANALYZING...
Honestly and serioulsy, if someone got an understanding of eva like those ideas, then please inform me.
All the eva fans i've met so far have been like this :
Fan type #1 : "Yeah yeah saw eva, real DEEP and HEAVY, makes you THINK... i saw it and i was like wth///
Fan type #2 : (usually occuring after you ask a person what specifically they liked about eva) "Yeah its really deep: the characters are really complex and it makes you think about life and humans and religion and BLAH BLAH BLAH"
Fan type #3 are what the link includes, they talk with extensive references from freud and other people who diagnosed mentally screwed up people, and SOMEHOW relate strange strange theories to eva...
i dunno, maybe im just stupid, but i certainley dont see these things in eva. All I saw was a little guy whining CONSTANTLY about his stupid problems and "misery" (BOO HOO IM SOO SAD FOR HIM SNIFF SNIFF SOB SOB)
supremebeing13
2004-03-01, 19:21
~~~~~~~~~ lol ~~~~~~~~~
That link : IMO it is big time OVER-ANALYZING...
Honestly and serioulsy, if someone got an understanding of eva like those ideas, then please inform me.
I agree that it seems like people say Eva is all deep and meaningful, but they don't say what is deep or meaningful about it. I think it's overrated in that aspect.
I do think it is certainly thought provoking and interesting, moreso than a lot of anime. To me, all the ending does is say something for the director. "Look Dad, I don't care what you think, this is what anime is and can be, it can express ideas relating to war, religion, releationships, boobies, whatever, but this anime is about me and my self expression" etc. I don't think that concept is particularly "deep" or mindblowing although it's very unique when you look at American tv/movies.
I felt much more of a profound emotional impact from Now and Then, Here and There, and Grave of the Fireflies, and a few like that, than I did from NGE.
But, that's just my opinion, it's not anything that has to go for anybody else.
That link : IMO it is big time OVER-ANALYZING...
Honestly and serioulsy, if someone got an understanding of eva like those ideas, then please inform me.
All the eva fans i've met so far have been like this :
Fan type #1 : "Yeah yeah saw eva, real DEEP and HEAVY, makes you THINK... i saw it and i was like wth///
Fan type #2 : (usually occuring after you ask a person what specifically they liked about eva) "Yeah its really deep: the characters are really complex and it makes you think about life and humans and religion and BLAH BLAH BLAH"
Fan type #3 are what the link includes, they talk with extensive references from freud and other people who diagnosed mentally screwed up people, and SOMEHOW relate strange strange theories to eva...
i dunno, maybe im just stupid, but i certainley dont see these things in eva. All I saw was a little guy whining CONSTANTLY about his stupid problems and "misery" (BOO HOO IM SOO SAD FOR HIM SNIFF SNIFF SOB SOB)
Intellectually, Evangelion is mostly an interpretative anime. Which roughly means you get out of it what you put in to it. While there are considerable complexities with very real and definite answers, they're not actually all that important. What is extremely important, to the extent that it can occasionally result in life-changing "messages" is its ability to induce questions. And thanks to its emotional and visceral power, in the receptive mind, this creates a far more interesting effect than any amount of asking equivalent questions in a neutral atmosphere. To summarise, Evangelion is an impressively powerful tool in creating the conditions for the human mind to effectively re-examine its position on fundamental and important issues. This is why it is an extremely deep anime. Not because it actually explicitly contains any particular deep messages. But because it creates the ideal situation for people to add their own.
And this is the only real good way of going about the task. Sure, you could imbue something with a philosophy of great depth which you found to be meaningful. But what use is that to anyone else? Everyone has different questions they want answered, different facets of their life that they want insight into. A logical and dispassionate analysis to determine its fundamental worth is not the right way to look at Evangelion. Humans are not completely logical creatures, and Eva is made with this in mind. Logical analysis is only a proper tool to develop your personal interpretation, since that is a part (but only a part) of standard human thought processes for dealing with such things. The basic "hooks" of Evangelion are rooted in emotion and irrationality, because that is the way humans behave on a basic level.
Criticising Evangelion for not having an explicit real and deep philosophy is like criticisng an abstract painting for not having an explicit and accurate depiction of reality. It's completely missing the point. And criticisng a fan for adoring a show which can help them find something so deep inside themselves that they can't even explain it is just to completely misunderstand the whole process.
And finally, criticising Shinji for finding, for example, the idea of suddenly having to risk death fighting a giant killing machine intimidating shows a certain disconnection from reality.
Newprimus
2004-03-01, 20:08
Off the top of my head, Jin-Roh, Akira (Though really, the manga was MUCH MUCH better than the movie).
A more obscure one, the original Tsukihime game (the anime barely compares).
Orchunter226
2004-03-01, 21:18
Green Legend Ran, i thought was very emotional, and "deep", was very profound how the creator though abotu the envirmoent adn all. (i was only 11 ;) when i saw it last) But sitll remeber it well.
orochidp
2004-03-01, 21:51
I doubt that NGE was deep...
I bought a HK box set a while back...
And...
I don't see what's so "deep" and "profound".
It's a cartoon about a boy with low self esteem who...
Spanks it to comotose girls and chokes women just to feel another's presence. He's a friggin' mental trainwreck.
Don't get me wrong, it was a pretty good anime.
It's just a few things about it that bother me...
1. the Christianity thing. I wouldn't mind it so much it it was even MODERATELY close to being anywhere near correct. I kinda know why he did it, but it still bothers me.
2. The last few episodes. IT was completely dandy until the whole self-doubting "What/who am I" crap started. Yeah, you don't like yourself. Get over it, but don't waste like 4 episodes doing it.
Oh, by the way, was I the only one to be horrified by the whole... beat-off ...thing? It not that I'm against it or anything, but that one came out of the blue...
That was the defining "...wait, WHAT?!?" moment in anime for me.
TheMongoMania
2004-03-02, 00:35
I doubt that NGE was deep...
I bought a HK box set a while back...
And...
I don't see what's so "deep" and "profound".
It's a cartoon about a boy with low self esteem who...
Spanks it to comotose girls and chokes women just to feel another's presence. He's a friggin' mental trainwreck.
Don't get me wrong, it was a pretty good anime.
It's just a few things about it that bother me...
1. the Christianity thing. I wouldn't mind it so much it it was even MODERATELY close to being anywhere near correct. I kinda know why he did it, but it still bothers me.
2. The last few episodes. IT was completely dandy until the whole self-doubting "What/who am I" crap started. Yeah, you don't like yourself. Get over it, but don't waste like 4 episodes doing it.
Oh, by the way, was I the only one to be horrified by the whole... beat-off ...thing? It not that I'm against it or anything, but that one came out of the blue...
That was the defining "...wait, WHAT?!?" moment in anime for me.
That scene in the movie represents how pathetic Shinji thinks he is.
Oh, by the way, was I the only one to be horrified by the whole... beat-off ...thing? It not that I'm against it or anything, but that one came out of the blue...
That was the defining "...wait, WHAT?!?" moment in anime for me.That scene in the movie represents how pathetic Shinji thinks he is.
I believe it's actually an attack on the fans who make or enjoy Evangelion hentai.
supremebeing13
2004-03-02, 06:51
I never thought about it in that format before, but that sounds like a pretty interesting way to put it. And besides, for a 14 year old group of pixels the hospitalized red-haired girl aint half bad. Now if they used the gaunt Asuka that was sitting in the tub... now that would be really depressing if Shinji got off on that, lol.
Z'd Jung
2004-03-02, 07:03
Eh...
Right now I'd prefer not to discuss anything directly related to eva as it usually leads inevitably into a continuous whirlpool of assumptions and counter assumtions that I'm too tired to join right now. I'll just say that I thought it was deep, at least enough to send me into days of extreme depression punctuated with thoughts of suicide, or maybe I'm just too sensitive :p.
Anyway, other Anime that probaly make a list of deep and profound would probably be Lain, Bubblegum Crisis?, Ghost, She. The UW, sort of with.hack//SIGN and GateKeepers21, though GK21 deals more with the situation with in Japan and its present state.
I swear my post isnt long... it just has a tons of quotes...
I'll just say that I thought it was deep, at least enough to send me into days of extreme depression punctuated with thoughts of suicide, or maybe I'm just too sensitive ...so if its deep, its depressing?
Jung , i think you havent seen/read a lot of depressing stuff b/c if you think eva was depressing then you should check out a lot of american classic movies (on channels such as TCM and AMC)(one of the best channels out there) and read some books. Eva is somewhat "dark" but not IMO annyywhere near to send someone towards thought of suicide...
also once again i refer to the bold portion of the quote : if something is deep, it should depress you? Also would you mind explaining why you think eva is deep.
And finally, criticising Shinji for finding, for example, the idea of suddenly having to risk death fighting a giant killing machine intimidating shows a certain disconnection from reality.
Lambda, i wasnt at all criticizing shinji for being scared or reluctant. Those two conditions would be perfectly understandable BUT , for eg, when he got beat up by those two boys (who later became his friends )and didnt even say a word,didnt even try to stand up, and he was usually like this through the entire series, that just marked shinji as a purely pathetic character in my mind. Also shinji did not, most of the time, seem as much scared as he was apathetic and avoidant. All this just made him seem so pathetic...
Intellectually, Evangelion is mostly an interpretative anime. Which roughly means you get out of it what you put in to it. While there are considerable complexities with very real and definite answers, they're not actually all that important. What is extremely important, to the extent that it can occasionally result in life-changing "messages" is its ability to induce questions. And thanks to its emotional and visceral power, in the receptive mind, this creates a far more interesting effect than any amount of asking equivalent questions in a neutral atmosphere. To summarise, Evangelion is an impressively powerful tool in creating the conditions for the human mind to effectively re-examine its position on fundamental and important issues. This is why it is an extremely deep anime. Not because it actually explicitly contains any particular deep messages. But because it creates the ideal situation for people to add their own.
And this is the only real good way of going about the task. Sure, you could imbue something with a philosophy of great depth which you found to be meaningful. But what use is that to anyone else? Everyone has different questions they want answered, different facets of their life that they want insight into. A logical and dispassionate analysis to determine its fundamental worth is not the right way to look at Evangelion. Humans are not completely logical creatures, and Eva is made with this in mind. Logical analysis is only a proper tool to develop your personal interpretation, since that is a part (but only a part) of standard human thought processes for dealing with such things. The basic "hooks" of Evangelion are rooted in emotion and irrationality, because that is the way humans behave on a basic level.
I will comment on this after you answer this one question :
And criticisng a fan for adoring a show which can help them find something so deep inside themselves that they can't even explain it is just to completely misunderstand the whole process.
...well clearly you are speaking from first hand experience...but if they DID find something deep and precious then they shoud be able to explain it. There's nothing in the universe that can't be explained...unless ofcourse those certain fans have merely copied there ideas from million others who go around blabbing how DEEP and PROFOUND eva is...
I ask you one final time to tell me what you felt after watching that show. What were these life-changing "messages" you experienced and what fundamental and important issues did you re-examine when watching eva...what was your reaction that made you believe in eva as a deep show.
If you answer my question, I will forever believe in Eva as being as deep and profound as they all say it to be.
enlighten me please...
supremebeing13
2004-03-02, 14:37
Was it only me who noticed that he posted the answer to his question within the qoute he posted on his post? At least for one person, if you want my answer just refer to my previous post... not the ~~lol~~ one, hehe.
babbito2k
2004-03-02, 17:25
I believe it's actually an attack on the fans who make or enjoy Evangelion hentai.
GAINAX makes all kinds of strip Mah Johngg games and stuff though, and they put a decent amount of fanservice in the series.
Don't listen to any of them :D there are only 3 series that are deep and profound and they are best. At the same time they are the most famous ones :D
1. Lain.
2. Berserk.
3. Wolfs Rain.
All of them have a really interesting plot that embraces the problems of human nature. Highly recomended.
Sugetsu i agree with you full heartedly .
Carpe Jugulum
2004-03-02, 18:19
Off the top of my head, Jin-Roh, Akira (Though really, the manga was MUCH MUCH better than the movie).
A more obscure one, the original Tsukihime game (the anime barely compares).
I thought about Jin-Roh but I watched it again and I dont think its really that profound I mean there are so much more philosophical stuff out there I mean take Ghost In The Shell and well everyone is saying it but evangelion that was laced with religious meaningfulness
Carpe Jugulum
2004-03-02, 18:22
Don't listen to any of them :D there are only 3 series that are deep and profound and they are best. At the same time they are the most famous ones :D
1. Lain.
2. Berserk.
3. Wolfs Rain.
All of them have a really interesting plot that embraces the problems of human nature. Highly recomended.
sorry dont mean to double post but i dont know how to add a quote from Sugetsu to my other post and i only read what he said after i posted my first reply but i completely aggree with you about Lain Heavy and Deep are the exact words to describe it.... now berserk you have to look past all the mindless slaughtering before you see the profoundness but it is there :D
sry again about the double post
babbito2k
2004-03-02, 18:24
Don't listen to any of them :D there are only 3 series that are deep and profound and they are best. At the same time they are the most famous ones...
Most famous by whose standards? What the Japanese seem to remember best (as witnessed by popularity polls) are ageless reveries on human greed and ignorance like Doraemon.
Eva is somewhat "dark" but not IMO annyywhere near to send someone towards thought of suicide...
And yet it clearly has.
Lambda, i wasnt at all criticizing shinji for being scared or reluctant. Those two conditions would be perfectly understandable BUT , for eg, when he got beat up by those two boys (who later became his friends )and didnt even say a word,didnt even try to stand up, and he was usually like this through the entire series, that just marked shinji as a purely pathetic character in my mind. Also shinji did not, most of the time, seem as much scared as he was apathetic and avoidant. All this just made him seem so pathetic...
Fair enough, I was making assumptions there. Though I'm capable of identifying with just about anyone if they're well enough explained, that's not a terribly common trait.
but if they DID find something deep and precious then they shoud be able to explain it. There's nothing in the universe that can't be explained
Even as a statement in a world ideal from an intellectual point of view, that's the sort of statement you need to be very careful with, so you don't start implying you can answer questions like "why does everything (as a whole) universe exist?" or "is ZFC consistent?". When you're talking about real humans it's nonsense. Most people aren't terribly good at rationalising their own thoughts, and there will always be things which your intuition tells you but which your logic can't justify.
...well clearly you are speaking from first hand experience
I ask you one final time to tell me what you felt after watching that show. What were theselife-changing "messages" you experienced and what fundamental and important issues did you re-examine when watching eva...what was your reaction that made you believe in eva as a deep show.
Ah, actually you've misread me there. Though I'm glad I was able to sound convincing enough to give the impression of speaking from first hand experience, that's not actually the case. I've put it all together from listening to other people's experiences regarding the show, knowledge about how humans and media work and some good old-fashioned empathy, as well as (importantly) somewhat analogous personal experiences from watching Lain, which I will outline to give you an indication of the sort of processes involved if you desire. My main reasons for loving Eva are the characterwork and the direction/imagery, and I tend to personally see it as more of a beautiful (in several different senses) show than anything else.
But that's the point. The whole point of a show is ultimately encapsulated in how it interacts with its audience, and this can happen in a wide variety of different ways, which is certainly the case with Eva! You can talk about the actual content all you want, but ultimately content is just a means to an end, it's not important by itself. I think the communicative problem is that the word "deep" can have two different meanings in this context. If we were talking about whether or not it was "exciting", this sort of gulf wouldn't arise. But unlike most adjectives applied to pieces of television, the word "deep" can be applied to the raw content as well as the way it works with its audience. Since it's what it does that's all important, being entertainment and all, the word should in all utility be applied to the audience interaction, but the confusion is further compunded by the fact that having deep interactions with the audience is usually achieved to a significant degree by giving the "pseudo-misleading" impression that this exists in the raw content as well. (Kind of like excitement relies on a certain impression of it actually being real.) Hence, often when people describe the show they can often do so in a slightly misleading fashion.
But to reiterate, adjectives applied to a show conventionally refer to what that show can induce in its audience (deep thoughts, excitement, emotion, long analyses etc.) rather than what the show strictly contains. That's what television is all about. Just like a physical television is described as a device for showing moving pictures with sound on, rather than a collection of protons, neutrons and electrons. And the best way to make a deep show is precisely to avoid making the deep content concrete and logically defineable, because then that's your own deep thoughts, there's no room for the audience's, and the audience are the whole point of the exercise.
GAINAX makes all kinds of strip Mah Johngg games and stuff though, and they put a decent amount of fanservice in the series.
I know. GAINAX aren't exactly what you'd call a perfectly organised company with complete self-consistency.
I admit I only skimmed the whole thread so I apologize if this has already been mentioned:
To me one of the best portrayals of human nature was in Nausicaa. The story gives glimses into the worst aspects of human nature, but at the same time it gives hope. I highly recommend it. (A sci-fi tale of survival on the far distant earth, and the battle with nature... I guess)
And if you enjoy the Movie, check out the manga too. 7 volumes long (iirc) while the movie ends somewhere in volume 2. I got this recently and it went straight to my top 5 list :)
supremebeing13
2004-03-03, 06:24
Sounds interesting... ill add it to the list. When i asked this question earlier on i was expecting a few responses, but the amount of different anime people have suggested is just.. cool, lol. Thanks for the help all, ill take everyons suggestions into consideration.
As for NGE... i guess we all have our opinions, sorry about reviving a much debated argument, i didnt realize the subject was so hot, lol. Anyways, thanks again for the opinions and viewpoints, im always open to a different perspective and i love to see what others think. :)
supremebeing13
2004-03-03, 07:11
Hmm.. sorry for the double post, but.. can anyone tell me Lains full name? i cant seem to find it under "L" in the bittornt series section, lol.
Serial Experiments Lain is licensed so buy the DVDs. :D
supremebeing13
2004-03-03, 14:34
Ahhh cruddy nutzo. Sigh. :(
After an unhealthy amount of knukle cracking, here's my response:
Lambda, I dont feel like quoting your whole post since it takes a long time, but i have to say that your ideas about how raw content is used to evoke the [all the deep, etc crap we've been talking about] and etc. are quite interesting. (your style of writing is very dense but HEy the idea embedded is interesting!)
OK.
I can slightly and somewhat understand the feelings of those raging eva fanatics now, even though i still have doubts that they are only carried along by copying the opinions of others and still yet some even like the show only b/c of the monotonous piece of body which is rei (you should see the sick disgiusting "fanart" they have of her.hidous and eye blinding), I will give slack and let them be. People are people and preference is preference.
And now, even though i still do hesitate greatly to declare eva magnificent or stunning, and even though i still find people like supremebeing13 annoying, for their nagging gushing adores &c, i think i shall retreat from critcizing eva further.(be happy people, be happy!)
I do agree with Spyre, and I think its not only nausicaa but some other of miyazaki's movies are usually very good at portraying realistic human nature. (gods know that this is very rare in anime) Also miyazaki's movies dont so the usual good vs evil thing, which is cool.
I think an show/movie does not necesarily need to be "heavy and deep" to be good, theres a lot of excellent stuff out there that you've gotta check out thats not heavy.for eg take that movie "king pow- enter the fist", its one of the best comedies ive ever seen (the list being topped by "murder by death"- the funniest thing i've everrrrr seen YOU MUST ALL WATCH IT TOO), and that movie...well...it sure aint wht you'd call intellectual...
oh yeah..this all and, "rebel without a cause" is playing on TCM on March 07, 2004 at 06:00 PM (EST). great movie. watch it.
\\ superbeing, you might be able to get lain off of kazaa. tech tv shows it sometimes too.(they showed it like last summer or something, maybe they'll show it this summer too)
When I see threads like this, where people argue about 'deep, insightful' shows that 'push the borders' of anime and all that, it's almost unanimously the same sort of anime. Shows like Lain, Evangelion, Akira, Key the Metal Idol (which the short attention span of the internet seems to have forgotten even though it's right up there with Eva and Lain and Akira as far as story quality and subject matter).
I liked Eva, it had a lot of interesting ideas and threw in a good number of plot twists. It also hinted at a number of things without actually showing them, leaving the viewer to piece together everything that actually happened. Of course, I wound up enjoying the tv series ending a lot more just because of that whole 'forcing the audience to think' style, than the really unneccesary movies. The movies were eye candy and gratuitis violence, and that's fine. I just hate to see people proclaiming them to be the ending that Eva needed when they go so completely against the grain of what the tv series was building towards.
Was Eva dark? Well, it certainly wasn't a happy story, but I've seen far worse in anime, and other film and literature mediums. 'The Night the Earth Stood Still: Giant Robo' is, in my opinion, a much more emotional story, and a lot more depressing than Eva. Sure, the scope isn't as grand, but it tends to be the more personal pains and loses that hit you the most. I've seen plenty of anime where entire planets are laid to waste, and the emotional impact is very glossed over. Heck, I see that in every day life. Hundreds die in some fire somewhere thousands of miles away, and do you shed a tear? You probably feel sorry for them and their loved ones, but it doesn't really effect us personally. Nothing to be ashamed of, natural human reaction. We can't fall apart every single time something terrible happens to another human being somewhere. However, when it happens to someone that we know and care about, when they lose someone dear or have something bad happen to them, or when a show follows the personal sorrows, the emotional roller coaster of an individual human being that we can somehow relate to, it's a lot easier for us to relate to that. Eva does that, to an extent. Shinji's tale is fairly unhappy. His flaws are tragic, sure. Unfortunately to such an extreme that it's difficult to relate to the character, so many write him off as a whiney schmuck and look to other characters in other shows for a connection.
Was Eva profound or insightful? Did it mean something? Ask yourself just what questions were posed by the story, and ask what themes were conveyed. Were the questions clear? Did the show adequately answer the questions? Or did it at least give some insight as to the writer's opinion, with some thoughts to send you on the path to your own answer?
In shows like Giant Robo, the question is clearly asked, though the answer is left for the viewer to decide instead of clearing providing an answer. I personally think that's deeper than providing a clear answer that may or may not apply to you, the viewer. Or it may be wrong altogether, and fall apart in the viewer's eyes. Of course, in other shows the theme is very heavy handed and the writer's beliefs are laid out before you, such as in many of Leiji Matsumoto's works. There's nothing to question there. The writer shows you his character's beliefs, and lets you follow them to where those beliefs take them. This can be profound in it's own way, if you'd never thought of those ideals before, yet find them appealing when shown to you.
Sad, depressing shows aren't the only way to go to be 'deep and profound' as it's been put. I think Macross 7 has a very strong message, and delivers some very unconventional, yet highly emotional and meaningful ideas and messages, despite a very tongue-in-cheek delivery. Though this probably isn't your cup of tea if you prefer more action-oriented, or darker and grittier programming.
Like others have already mentioned, Miyazaki and the Ghibli crew tell some excellent stories, often with very meaningful and insightful themes, though without the deliberately confusing storytelling, the smoke and mirrors of a show like Eva.
However, if the smoke and mirrors, the symbolism, and the round about way of telling a story are things you liked in Eva, there are plenty of other shows like it.
In addition to Lain and Akira, Key the Metal Idol is another dark, tragic sort of story with lots of symbolism and hints at occultish going-ons amidst the futuristic setting.
Angel's Egg, as I believe someone has already suggested, is wrought with plenty of symbolism and a lot of the story, what happens and why, is left up to the viewer to descypher. It is also a beautiful and excellent movie, well worth seeing by any fan of animation.
Many of Mamaru Oshii's other works also rank highly in this sort of genre. Ghost in the Shell, while not nearly as deep or remarkable as the incredible manga by Masamune Shirow, still fits the bill as far as 'pretty' and intentionally confusing goes. It's also laden with a large dose of pseudo-psychological 'insights'. It's not one of my favourite movies, but many who enjoy tales like Eva and Lain tend to also fall in love with this movie.
Patlabor 1&2 on the other hand are much stronger works, by the same director. The stories are more grounded in reality, politics, and personal beliefs than the transformation of the human psyche, or the end of the world, but they tell very solid, deep stories that ask very real questions, with a healthy dose of symbolism and dark environments. Wasted XIII is every bit as good in the story department, though I think the animation suffers from a lack of restraint on behalf of the digital colourists, which harms the overall feel and mood of the film.
Revolutionary Girl Utena has a good dose of what made shows like Eva and Lain popular, told through a strange mix of Shojo and Shonen style storytelling and a large part of swords and magic style fantasy in a not-quite-modern setting. Worth checking out, at the very least.
If you haven't already played Final Fantasy VII, do yourself the favour of doing so. You'll find it has many of hte story elements that make Eva what it is, with much stronger character developement. The ending of the game is more akin to the Eva tv series ending, though, and requires some thought to put together. On the other hand, the new FFVII movie is on the way, which is yet another reason to play the game, as the movie is almost certain to have more of what you seemed to like in Evangelion.
Haibane Renmei is another series to look out for, from the creator of Lain, though a very different setting, the style of storytelling is there.
Hades Project Zeorymer seems to many to be the Proto-Eva. This show carries a lot of themes and ideas that turn up in Evangelion, so much so that it's hard not to believe that the creators of Eva were not at least inspired by this great OVA. Character developement is Zeorymer's claim to fame. Some of the best character developement around, compacted into a very short amount of time. Any fan of Eva should at least take a peek at Zeorymer. You'll probably love it.
'His and Her Circumstance' is another Gainax great. I would highly reccomend it to any fan of Evangelion, and many of those who hated Eva. While retaining the same style of character and story development, this show is more centered around common human relationships and has nothing to do with giant robots nor the end of the world. Still, in many ways I find it to be the stronger of the two series.
FLCL, Fury-Kuri (or Fooly-Cooly if Cartoon Network is your only source for those crazy and wacky Japanese cartoons) is also from Gainax and laid out much like Eva. A more humourous story overall, more uplifting and less emotional than Eva, it still tells a very solid story, though in that wonderful round-about way that makes the viewer try and piece things together.
I'm sure there's more than that, and hopefully more suggestions will come out of this forum. I know there's at least a few of us that remember a number of deep and profound shows that were forcing anime viewers to think long before Eva appeared on the scene, and there's been many great gems that did what Eva did just as well, if not better, but never grabbed quite as much recognition.
So much about a movie, that left so little awnserd. Or is the truth unacceptible.
Good god Radd you know a lot of frigging anime. You say they are good too. I really really want to watch some of them but i dont think theres anyway i can get my hands on them. Saw utena though, one of the best animes ive ever seen.
babbito2k
2004-03-04, 15:47
When I see threads like this, where people argue about 'deep, insightful' shows that 'push the borders' of anime and all that, it's almost unanimously the same sort of anime.
This is a well-thought-out post. I myself find that people would rather blindly follow labels telling them "this one will make you think" rather than making an effort to think about everything they see. At the very least doing some thinking will lead the viewer to say something more detailed about a favorite series than "it's great." Of course, without getting a grasp on specifics, the mental effort is wasted.
You have also made some decent arguments for the series you recommend, which more or less makes my case for what happens when people do a bit of thinking and give some detail.
I would like to toss in a recommendation for 11 nin Iru! (They Were 11), which has just been rereleased on DVD this year. Although Moto Hagio is not as well known in the US as many other mangaka she is a pioneer of shoujo manga. 11 nin Iru! is a 1986 movie based on a short work of hers; faithfully adapting her work, it combines SF and human drama to ask questions about human nature.
Sad, depressing shows aren't the only way to go to be 'deep and profound' as it's been put.
very true, too many people automatically put sad and depressing shows into the deep and profound category. It probably happens because it's hard to make sense of all the imagery being bombarded at them. Sometimes the show is just crap (like narutaru). There was nothing profound about it. I found trigun and kenshin and akira to be much more deep and profound than these wanna be violence/gore shows
I liked Eva, it had a lot of interesting ideas and threw in a good number of plot twists. It also hinted at a number of things without actually showing them, leaving the viewer to piece together everything that actually happened. Of course, I wound up enjoying the tv series ending a lot more just because of that whole 'forcing the audience to think' style, than the really unneccesary movies. The movies were eye candy and gratuitis violence, and that's fine. I just hate to see people proclaiming them to be the ending that Eva needed when they go so completely against the grain of what the tv series was building towards.
I actually like the ending of the TV series more than the movie. Too many fans have praised it to the skies when I felt that it was somewhat forced on some areas. Actually both endings seem to be forced, since the presentation opted more for 'telling' rather than 'showing'. It's a matter of personal taste in this case. However, the movie is by far, one of those rides you will never forget--at least in terms of the experience itself.
Eva surely has influenced the field of anime. It's truly postmodern in the sense that its story remained fragmented towards the end--bits and pieces that seem to fit and oppose each other at the same time. Which is why some people seem to have a need, or rather a demand, to interpret the whole show. In fact, it doesn't surprise me that some opted for a Freudian interpretation--even someone who has an inkling of psychoanalysis can see at least traces of Freud in the story.
On the other hand, one thing I don't like about Eva is that it seems to be conscious of trying to be deep and profound. Like Radd said, it has a "forcing the audience to think style." I don't find it as natural, or I don't see the deepness or insight as naturally flowing from the characters within the key moments in the story. The point of Eva for me is actually very simple, but whatever it is trying to say has sometimes been shrouded and obscured behind its own storytelling conventions and too much forced ambiguity.
Right now, I find GITS:SAC to be quite compelling and profound in its own way. Despite being episodic and centered on action and plot twists, the fact that it has a solid concept of a futuristic and a fictionally believable world is enough to keep me thinking. The central concept of the show is something I feel worth reflecting on. Personally I didn't find that forced upon me.
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