The Character Discussion Thread of SOS団 Member: Haruhi Suzumiya [Archive]

CrowKenobi

2009-08-26, 05:55

The purpose of this thread is to provide a place to discuss all things Haruhi Suzumiya related.

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Triple_R

2009-08-26, 06:00

Excellent thread idea, Crow Kenobi! :)

Let me just start off by saying that Haruhi is one of my five all-time favorite anime characters.

I think that she's a very exciting and fun character with an intriguing style and beguiling passions. Her longing for the extraordinary and the unconventional resonates with me in many ways, and her dynamic domineering nature is always enjoyable to behold.

Usually, a personality like Haruhi's is found in male antagonists, imo, so to see it in a female protagonist is quite a novel discovery, and definitely one of the chief appeals of this anime to me.

Philos

2009-08-26, 06:19

She's the top of my favourite tsundere character, because she doesn't show her dere action directly like other tsundere character. (ex. red blush on face, diffident action)

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-08-26, 06:28

She isn't really a tsundere. She's more of a Genki Girl pretending she's a tsundere.

Dakota

2009-08-26, 08:37

I think Haruhi is a fusion of genki and tsundere. Let's review:

- Always energentic (genki)
- Mean to Kyon (tsuntsun)
- Harbors waffy feelings for Kyon (deredere)

Therefore, a genkitsundere.

Heatth

2009-08-26, 09:55

How much time before this tread explode in a flame war? :p

Anyway, I agree she is a tsundere. She is not one of this cheap tsundere you can found in many animes, where the characters is defined by being a 'tusndere'. She is much more then is, as she is much more then her relationship with Kyon.

To me, what prooves her as a tsundere is she always goes to dere dere mode when the show/book focus a little more i the romance. Like the end of Melancholy.

Stardust Romance

2009-08-26, 11:49

Triple_R

2009-08-26, 11:53

TV Tropes has her listed under ManicPixieDreamGirl (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ManicPixieDreamGirl).

The description certainly seems to fit, at least as it pertains to her relationship with Kyon.

Oh, wait, they also have her listed under Strange Girl (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StrangeGirl)!

"Normal humans don't interest me. If anyone here is an alien, a time traveler, slider, or an esper, then come find me! That is all." - Haruhi Suzumiya

Well... that is a rather strange outlook on the world. Alien hunting is one thing, but not finding any other humans interesting at all is quite strange...

Oooo... and here's a character label that really suits Haruhi well, and, in fact, is what her critics tend to bring up most often against her:

ParkerLewisFerrisBueller! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ParkerLewisFerrisBueller)

Or, in layman's term, a high school hustler. Yeah, there's no doubt that Haruhi tends to get away with a lot. Still, perhaps Haruhi's poor behavior is just because...

She Just Wants to Be Special (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IJustWantToBeSpecial)

Yep, there's no doubt that Haruhi would love to feel more special than she does. Her "ordinary" soliloquy certainly demonstrated that, and it continues to be the case.

And... there's loads of other labels that TV Tropes applies to Haruhi as a character (such as Defrosting Ice Queen (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DefrostingIceQueen)) that I'm not listing myself, because I don't quite agree with them, really, or they've already been brought up (Genki Girl and Tsundere). However, the ones I did list for Haruhi make up a rather diverse list for Haruhi as it is.

So... here's a newsflash for TV Tropes and label-lovers everywhere: The more of these labels that you can defensibly stick to the character, the less either one of them is satisfactory in defining him or her.

With so many labels that can effectively be applied to Haruhi, the net result is an original character that doesn't deserve to be labeled. I know that it may sound paradoxical, but really think about it for a second. If six very different labels apply to a particular character, then maybe the "net character" is someone pretty unique...

And that is my argument pertaining to Haruhi and labels, Haruhiists and Kyonphiles.

P.S. No disrespect towards Philos (or towards anybody else). It's nice to have you aboard, Philos! :)

I will say that I do like how Haruhi displays her feelings in a less stereotypical or overt manner than tsunderes do. :)

Heatth

2009-08-26, 11:57

lol a genkitsundere.
Very fitting.

To be honest, she's the least of my favorite character ( surprise? I think not)
I mean, I can relate to her but her attitude just rubs me the wrong way. Yeah yeah, she changes through the novels but I've only watched the anime so I'm soley judging from there at the mean time. I adore her adventurous spirit and taking risks but sometimes I just want to smack her lol.

You can say I get annoyed as much as Kyon.
Go figure.

I always hear the same stories from potential fans but people being turned off by Haruhi herself so I can sort of sympathize with them.

She change through the anime too, actually. Live A Live is the best exemple. Day of Sagitarius too, if you read it in a certan way. And Some Day in the Rain. Even Lone Island, though it is overshoadowed by her biggest jerkas moment that happens latter.

Also, Kyon don't get annoyed that much, actually. It is hard to get but he kinda say so in Menlancholy VI. In the end he made clear he actually find fun every weird thing that had happened so far.

I can see what you mean, though. It is really not that simple lke her.

PP:
Nice post Triple. I agree with it. However, I say labels ar useful to make a sumary of a character. Explain it in few words. However, Haruhi is not flat enough to me entirely sumirized by on or two labels.

risingstar3110

2009-08-26, 12:32

My favorite character of all time..... =]

Will have more comments when i'm not sleepy...

Little Buster

2009-08-26, 15:51

Anime Character Perfection!

haruhi.ism

2009-08-26, 15:55

Haruhi leads Cubs to World Series!

more like the sox ^__^

haruhi is god. enough said.

Little Buster

2009-08-26, 16:07

more like the sox ^__^

you just wish. Haruhi is a Cubby!

haruhi.ism

2009-08-26, 16:11

you just wish. Haruhi is a Cubby!

no way! haruhi is so a sox girl!

Dakota

2009-08-26, 17:15

no way! haruhi is so a sox girl!

Oh for sure. Sox fans hold Godly faith in their team. I can see this.

Jonbob0008

2009-08-26, 17:51

Well, for starters, I think Haruhi is the most attractive female anime character I've seen to date. The fact is that the only reason I even watched the anime in the first place was because I watched someone's "Top 10 Hottest Anime Girls" list and Haruhi was at the top. The first nine were like "Yeah, she's alright," but then I saw Haruhi and I was like "Holy $%^&! She is HOT!" This is rather rare for me to say. Very few anime girls have ever gotten a reaction like that out of me. Everything about her looks is incredibly attractive to me. Great legs, Great butt, boobs that are just the right size (not to big and not too small), beautiful shoulder-length hair (LOVE shoulder-length hair), and an amazing smile and eyes. She fit all of my preferences!:love::love::love::love::love:

And then I watched the anime...and fell in love with her personality! Genki girl awesomeness combined with bits of tsundere here and there. I was hooked on her big time!

Granted, I will say this. I almost stopped liking her during that "scene" that's coming up in Sighs, but her later behavior helped to redeem herself.

So in conclusion, I love Haruhi and she's definitely my favorite anime character. ALL HAIL HARUHI-SAMA!!!!:bow:

Triple_R

2009-08-26, 18:02

Well, for starters, I think Haruhi is the most attractive female anime character I've seen to date. The fact is that the only reason I even watched the anime in the first place was because I watched someone's "Top 10 Hottest Anime Girls" list and Haruhi was at the top. The first nine were like "Yeah, she's alright," but then I saw Haruhi and I was like "Holy $%^&! She is HOT!" This is rather rare for me to say. Very few anime girls have ever gotten a reaction like that out of me. Everything about her looks is incredibly attractive to me. Great legs, Great butt, boobs that are just the right size (not to big and not too small), beautiful shoulder-length hair (LOVE shoulder-length hair), and an amazing smile and eyes. She fit all of my preferences!:love::love::love::love::love:

Yeah, Haruhi's 2006 character design was a huge part of the appeal for this anime for me as well. She does "The Girl Next Door" look perfectly - taking it to a whole new level.

Her 2006 character design has very nice proportions, and is sweetly anatomically smooth, correct, and attractive.

Now, I have to be honest; I tend to go for "tall, voluptuous" myself, but outside of characters like that, Haruhi is definitely the most attractive I've seen.

It's nice to meet another guy that likes normal sized (maybe a bit bigger than normal, but nothing huge) breasts as well. So often on the internet, I get the impression that a lot of anime fans like breasts that, to me, look like unattractive bloated tumors. :heh:

GMT

2009-08-26, 18:56

Oh that's it. Starting next week, the Church of Haruhiism will be advising its clergy to stop serving the special Kool Aid during the Sacrament to Our Goddess and switch to regular Kool Aid.

Why are people so enamored with Haruhi? On one hand, the show is very much The Adventures of Sociopath Sue and the Stockholm Syndrome Band featuring the adventures of a girl, the guy whose pants she wants to get into, and a fascinating assortment of people terrified/fascinated at the thought of/LOL ~nyoro at the thought that the girl may destroy the world in a fit of adolescent pique.

Is it her 'obvious' assets? As has been said, she's very well-designed. She's quite attractive in a "This is the girl-next-door you might meet in real life" sort of way. She's not at perpetual risk of capsizing, nor does she have hair that doesn't exist in nature.

Is it her her personality? She's got personality in droves. Haruhi's no useless moeblob. She gets things done, and doesn't take "no" for an answer. She's no ditz. She's smart and takes "thinking on one's feet" to a whole new level. She's no fairweather friend. If things go pear-shaped on you, you can count on her to get you out. You don't even have to be her friend. Sometimes it's enough that your story touches her in the right way. (no Rule 34 invocations, please!)

Is it her rebellious streak? She defies authority and gets away with it. Partly through good planning, partly through through luck and high charisma rolls, and mostly through sheer audacity. As in "that girl has crossed the line twice three times a whole lot of freakin' times!"

Of course she's got faults. Big glaring ones, in fact. She's impulsive. She really doesn't take "no" for an answer, even if "no" is the best answer. She's bossy and inconsiderate. Her improvisations and plans rarely take the feelings of others into account . . . especially the feelings of those required to carry them out. She sometimes has problems expressing how she feels . . . she often goes to great lengths and blows things far out of proportion to do something mundane and simple. Of course, the show might be a lot less interesting were she and Kyon not in varying degrees of denial so . . . circumspect . . . about their feelings for each other.

Could be because she's human. She's got depth. She's not defined just by her hotness, her godhood, her personality, or her flaws alone.

Now, if you will excuse me, I've got to get rid of the rest of this special Kool-Aid before next week's services. :heh:

Triple_R

2009-08-26, 19:14

Is it her 'obvious' assets? As has been said, she's very well-designed. She's quite attractive in a "This is the girl-next-door you might meet in real life" sort of way. She's not at perpetual risk of capsizing, nor does she have hair that doesn't exist in nature.

Well stated. The fact that her character design is realistic sets Haruhi apart from a lot of other female anime characters. It probably makes it a bit easier for the fans to, er... imagine going on dates with someone like Haruhi. ;)

Also, I've seen some really good Haruhi cosplays that are truly gorgeous. One in particular is visually stunning to me, and quite popular (most here have probably seen it).

She's no fairweather friend. If things go pear-shaped on you, you can count on her to get you out. You don't even have to be her friend. Sometimes it's enough that your story touches her in the right way.

Very good point that slipped my mind. Haruhi is a very loyal person in a way.

Once Haruhi befriends you, there's one big pro and one big con.

The big con is that she's going to expect you to follow her around everywhere. :heh:

The big pro is that you have a friend that will be there for you through thick and thin. Haruhi strikes me as the sort of person that would have a very hard time ending a serious friendship. In fact, I wrote a cross-over fic once in which this was a key element in her reforming a teenager bent on conquering an alien world... a rather impulsive and steely willed teenager himself.

Could be because she's human. She's got depth. She's not defined just by her hotness, her godhood, her personality, or her flaws alone.

I pretty much agree. When people get Haruhi wrong, I think, is when they focus on either one of the above while discarding the other key factors.

OkamiNoKaze

2009-08-26, 19:40

I wonder if there'll ever be the chance of a Hurrican named after her, it'd be the most fitting name for a hurrican ever.

Triple_R

2009-08-26, 19:45

I wonder if there'll ever be the chance of a Hurrican named after her, it'd be the most fitting name for a hurrican ever.

LOL! Neat thought, OkamiNoKaze!

typhonsentra

2009-08-26, 20:52

I've always wondered why we didn't have these threads before, I guess people just forgot to ask because it only became common years after the original season ended.

As for Haruhi herself, she's a very interesting character, especially in the novels. We probably know the least about her way of thinking out of all the characters as the others are able to more openly talk with Kyon given the fact that he's in the the big secret whereas she always has her guard up. It was one of the things that really drew me in originally when I started reading them back in 2006. It's obvious what her "Main" motivation is though for why she behaves the way she does though.

Vampire

2009-08-26, 22:04

Now, if you will excuse me, I've got to get rid of the rest of this special Kool-Aid before next week's services. :heh:

YOU FIEND!!
So why did Haruhi "choose" Kyon anyway?

Triple_R

2009-08-26, 22:15

YOU FIEND!!
So why did Haruhi "choose" Kyon anyway?

The following reasons, I think...

1) He's easy to boss around. Really, he is. While Kyon protests more than any other SOS Brigade member, he still puts up with a lot more from Haruhi than I think most guys his age (Japanese or otherwise) would. Haruhi needs submissive subordinates to do her bidding, and Kyon fills the role nicely.

2) He's John Smith... and Haruhi at least notices the resemblance. John Smith helped Haruhi in what may have been her first attempt to find alien life. That means something to Haruhi.

3) He's a good sounding board/challenge/foil for Haruhi in that he's not easy to convince or enliven or impress.... but he won't just blow her off totally either.

4) Presumably, Haruhi finds him at least somewhat physically attractive.

GMT

2009-08-26, 22:26

YOU FIEND!!
So why did Haruhi "choose" Kyon anyway?

Well, initially one might be lead to believe that Haruhi 'chose' Kyon for the very simple fact that Kyon's the first guy who weathered her "go to hell!" aura long enough to routinely strike up a conversation with her and befriend her.

The not so simple fact is that Kyon's attractiveness to Haruhi is greatly enhanced by the fact that she half-remembers him from "three years ago," as a time-traveling Kyon carrying an unconscious time-traveling moeblob happened upon loli-Haruhi. Kyon proceeded to contribute to the delinquency of a minor by carrying out helping loli-Haruhi carry out her act of vandalism on the grounds of her middle-school.

When asked of his name, Kyon tells Haruhi that his name is John Smith. Haruhi doesn't yet equate Kyon to John Smith. If she did, things could get . . . interesting . . .

OkamiNoKaze

2009-08-27, 00:50

Well, initially one might be lead to believe that Haruhi 'chose' Kyon for the very simple fact that Kyon's the first guy who weathered her "go to hell!" aura long enough to routinely strike up a conversation with her and befriend her.

The not so simple fact is that Kyon's attractiveness to Haruhi is greatly enhanced by the fact that she half-remembers him from "three years ago," as a time-traveling Kyon carrying an unconscious time-traveling moeblob happened upon loli-Haruhi. Kyon proceeded to contribute to the delinquency of a minor by carrying out helping loli-Haruhi carry out her act of vandalism on the grounds of her middle-school.

When asked of his name, Kyon tells Haruhi that his name is John Smith. Haruhi doesn't yet equate Kyon to John Smith. If she did, things could get . . . interesting . . .

Yeah I think you pretty much got it, that and he gave her the idea to start the club.

Something I noticed when I was looking at the illustations in the first novel, in one of them she has a lol-fang, (in her case it's a cos-rape-fang) too bad this didn't make the leap to the anime. But I guess two characters with a fang would be too much.

Nukerjsr

2009-08-27, 00:53

While I believe the character of Haruhi to be original and very interesting, I find that she's too contradictory for me to really like.

What really stuck out to me when I first watched the show, was her explanation of why she acts the way she acts. One of the big incidences that happened. When it comes down to it, the TV Trope defined it as "She Just Wants To Be Special."

What I don't get about that, is how she was perfectly special in the first place before any of the god-like revelation took place. She was practically the most talented person in the school, the only person close being the humanoid interface Ryoko Asakura. Athletic, Smart, Attractive, and Known well throughout the student body by having one of the most active clubs. And as we found out by the end of her first year, she's musically talented as well.

How does she not notice these things? Is she supposed to be that interested in the paranormal that she doesn't notice her own skills? The real big question to me is exactly how powerful or influential her wish-fulfillment is.

(Is already soaked in gasoline, so feel free to debate about this with me)

OkamiNoKaze

2009-08-27, 00:59

I'm not entirely convinced yet, but I think her powers are what makes her good at so many things she tries at.

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-08-27, 01:05

It's Haruhi's belief that anyone is capable of what she does, they just don't try hard enough. Her behavior in Boredom should be more than enough proof of that. What she wants is to truly be special. As in, she wants her life to be that of a sci-fi/fantasy world. However, she knows that "can't" happen.

I know I'm not really the best person to explain this sort of thing, but that's simply how it is. She has it in her head that she's normal, and wants something more.

ac195

2009-08-27, 03:44

YOU FIEND!!
So why did Haruhi "choose" Kyon anyway?

He actively challenges her and doesn't run away from her craziness. Yeah, he usually goes down in flames when he does so... but it doesn't stop him from doing it time and time again.

Also, he's a lot like Haruhi... more than he'd care to admit and she probably senses this as well.

CrowKenobi

2009-08-27, 17:48

Don't forget the "John Smith" thing... :D

Heatth

2009-08-27, 18:13

She reconised him as someone similar to her, with the same believe and interests (aliens, espers, time travel...).

It was only he who could think as crazy as her and ask if he hair style change was something to do with aliens.

Is just Kyon don't want(ed) to believe that things anymore (cause it is imature).

Archon_Wing

2009-08-28, 21:38

Triple_R

2009-08-28, 21:59

A lot of people accuse Haruhi of being a sociopath, and yes her lack of respect for norms, people, and just basically everything is quite disgusting at times. Though we do have to realize she is the ultimate spoiled child-- the universe spoils her, quite literally.

I strongly suspect that her parents spoiled her too.

However, I agree with much of what you said - the fact that she can bend reality to make it very difficult for her to lose in any competition that she cares about doesn't help matters.

I mentioned this over on the Koizumi thread, but I think it bears repeating here since it applies to Haruhi as well... Koizumi is really hurting her emotional maturing, I think, by always going out of his way to ensure that she never loses (as he did through his talks with Kyon during the baseball game and in Sagittarius III).

Honestly, I think that Haruhi would probably, over the long term, benefit from losing at a competition that she genuinely cared about.

Losing, every now and then, can build character. It can make a person more hardy, and more accepting of the idea that they can't always have their way.

She wants to have fun, and she sincerely believes other people are enjoying it too despite their collective groans and whining.

Here is where I feel compelled to disagree with you. Watching Sighs come to life in an animated way, I find it impossible to see how Haruhi could actually think that Mikuru is enjoying this. It's patently obvious that Mikuru is suffering through it all.

Haruhi just doesn't care. It's not that she's deluding herself into thinking that everybody is enjoying it; it's that she's never really taken the time to put her feet in another person's shoes, so she doesn't even stop to consider what this all feels like for Mikuru.

It's not maliciousness... but it's not self-delusion either. It's pure apathy/obliviousness.

Enter Kyon. He's the only one that doesn't act like a doormat to her, and actually provides opposition. She seems to genuinely want attention from him because of this. Plus you have to realize how the other 3 view her as...

The aliens view her as a key to evolution.
The espers view her as a god who would destroy the world out of boredom.
The Time Travelers see her as a roadblock.

Basically, nobody really sees her for herself. If she didn't have special abilities, then none of these factions would have given a damn about her. So it seems only natural she would be interested in the one that doesn't have an agenda.

Agreed.

Part of the problem isn't Haruhi's at all - it's the people around her, with a slight exception in Kyon's case.

While it's true that Haruhi makes no effort to empathize with others, it's also true that nobody else tries to empathize with her, either; not openly towards her anyway. This is, perhaps, part of what sets Kyon apart from the rest of Haruhi's peers, and in Haruhi's own eyes as well; he actually does try to empathize with her, at least every once in a while.

I think that if somebody was to like Haruhi for who she is, and if somebody was to sincerely share her interests with her, then you may see such empathy become reciprocal, and cause Haruhi to grow as a person.

Basically, nobody in the SOS Brigade truly shares her interests. Why would they? If you're an esper yourself, why would espers intrigue you? ;)

Kyon, though he's loath to admit it, at least shares her interests to a degree - he doesn't hold them as passionately as Haruhi does, but he'd genuinely like to see something very out-of-the-ordinary himself. I think that Haruhi picks up on that in him, and maybe that's part of the reason why Haruhi chose him to be her friend and in her SOS Brigade group. I suspect that, at some intuitive level, Haruhi can tell that - of the people she knows - only Kyon and she herself is really into the idea of seeing the out-of-the-ordinary.

OkamiNoKaze

2009-08-28, 22:28

Again Triple brings up my thoughts about Haruhi's parents, I don't know why but I get the feeling their like Mandy's Parents from Grim adventures of Billy and Mandy.

Also I've always wondered if Haruhi's powers were always there but dorment until that event "three years ago" or is that when she recieved them? Was there any revelation on this?

Also anyone want to speculate on post Graduation/novel Haruhi? I see her taking the SOS with her and turning it into a Private Investigation firm. That or she'd join Japan's version of the FBI's X-File unit.

Archon_Wing

2009-08-28, 22:29

I mentioned this over on the Koizumi thread, but I think it bears repeating here since it applies to Haruhi as well... Koizumi is really hurting her emotional maturing, I think, by always going out of his way to ensure that she never loses (as he did through his talks with Kyon during the baseball game and in Sagittarius III).

Honestly, I think that Haruhi would probably, over the long term, benefit from losing at a competition that she genuinely cared about.

Losing, every now and then, can build character. It can make a person more hardy, and more accepting of the idea that they can't always have their way.

Koizumi reminds of a type of morality I hate. Basically it is like people follow laws solely out of fear of being punished. You usually have people like that explaining that murder is wrong because it's illegal. Everything he does is because he is afraid Haruhi will destroy the world. It is all as fake as his smile. But of course, I can't blame him so much, because I don't think he wants to be here and the destruction of the universe is a priority. :heh:

It's true of all 3 factions to some degree. They all want to play it safe and throw responsibility at someone else , but it can't last like that.

Here is where I feel compelled to disagree with you. Watching Sighs come to life in an animated way, I find it impossible to see how Haruhi could actually think that Mikuru is enjoying this. It's patently obvious that Mikuru is suffering through it all.

Haruhi just doesn't care. It's not that she's deluding herself into thinking that everybody is enjoying it; it's that she's never really taken the time to put her feet in another person's shoes, so she doesn't even stop to consider what this all feels like for Mikuru.

It's not maliciousness... but it's not self-delusion either. It's pure apathy/obliviousness.

Hmm, haven't watched the latest episode yet, so that may change my opinion. I really do believe that one would become extremely delusional with a very warped sense of reality in her position. Not that it justifies anything she's done though.

But yea, she hasn't considered how others feel at all. She simply doesn't comprehend the need for morality. Apathy and obliviousness might just be the better words for her case.

baltakatei

2009-08-28, 22:33

Honestly, I think that Haruhi would probably, over the long term, benefit from losing at a competition that she genuinely cared about.

Losing, every now and then, can build character. It can make a person more hardy, and more accepting of the idea that they can't always have their way.

I disagree. I think that the more success Haruhi experiences, the more ambitious she'll become and more willing to take risks. A long series of successes means that she'll have more confidence in her ability to act and overcome obstacles. I think that if opportunities work her way (if the economy is on an upswing, if Haruhi enters into some revolutionary new field of industry that suits her abilities), then Haruhi would already have the kind of ambitious and hard-working personality that would push her advantage to the fullest.

On the other hand, if Japan's economy were stagnating and new opportunities to cause huge change in industry were closed to her, then she would end up becoming frustrated with her inability to achieve. If she didn't have her reality-warping powers (speaking of Haruhi as a real person, rather than imaginary), then she'd probably become more "accepting of the idea that [she] can't always have [her] way". She'd come out an ordinary person with little motivation to take big risks since her past failures in her frustrating environment stifled her ambition.

For this reason, I believe that Haruhi would gravitate towards areas that have opportunities for her to exercise her ruthless ambition and abilities. In the event that she did face inevitable failure of an important venture for her career, then she'd realize that she's stuck in small-town Nishinomiya where politicians and businessmen alike are too afraid to take risks that no other businesses/politicians have explored.

On the topic of business, I've met with several Japanese company executives and a few firms that coordinate US-Japan business relations. The potential for entrepreneurship in Japan is still lagging in comparison to outside countries such as the US. Positions of power in big Japanese companies are still manned by loyal employees who have reached a certain age in the company. To a large degree, promotions work like clockwork. Maverick-style management, the kind that I suspect Haruhi would excel at, is a rare find. If Haruhi were to find a niche in a system to refine her developing skill as a lawyer, detective, physicist, writer, or whatever, that niche would probably involve her leaving Japan.

In other words, Haruhi is unable to accept failure. She'd change her environment to suit her greed for glory. Any compromise on her part would dull what I believe most of us in this forum admire in her.

Triple_R

2009-08-28, 22:46

Koizumi reminds of a type of morality I hate. Basically it is like people follow laws solely out of fear of being punished. You usually have people like that explaining that murder is wrong because it's illegal. Everything he does is because he is afraid Haruhi will destroy the world. It is all as fake as his smile.

Yeah, I know what you mean.

My own perspective is that the 3 factions are all going with a bandaid solution approach to Haruhi - just taking things one instance at a time. They're not trying to build any sort of perceivable long-term strategy for her.

Now, in Mikuru's case, this could be because everything is predestined anyway - her job is to simply keep it that way, I suppose.

In Nagato's case, she's often simply an observer/information gatherer, and to her credit, she admits as much.

But Koizumi... Koizumi has a certain degree of freedom that both of the above lack. He isn't bound by the future (Mikuru), and nor is he bound to simply observe (Yuki). It would be better, I think, if he focused less on a case-by-case basis, and more on the big picture of Haruhi's maturing as a person.

But of course, I can't blame him so much, because I don't think he wants to be here and the destruction of the universe is a priority. :heh:

True. As I said over on the Koizumi thread, though, I really don't think that losing a baseball game would, in and of itself, cause Haruhi to destroy the universe.

Or, if you sincerely believe that it does, that's the key problem in and of itself - you need to emotionally move Haruhi to the point where she's stabler than that.

It's true of all 3 factions to some degree. They all want to play it safe and throw responsibility at someone else , but it can't last like that.

Exactly.

Hmm, haven't watched the latest episode yet, so that may change my opinion.

Mikuru's frequent showings of suffering are kind of hard to ignore... :heh:

I really do believe that one would become extremely delusional with a very warped sense of reality in her position. Not that it justifies anything she's done though.

But yea, she hasn't considered how others feel at all. She simply doesn't comprehend the need for morality. Apathy and obliviousness might just be the better words for her case.

I think that Haruhi has some sense of morality - I think, for example, that she wouldn't actually try to kill somebody unless put under the sort of circumstances that would cause your average person to kill (i.e. extreme self-defense).

But, yeah, her sense of morality is very much limited by her general lack of empathy.

Also I've always wondered if Haruhi's powers were always there but dorment until that event "three years ago" or is that when she recieved them? Was there any revelation on this?

This has been left entirely to fan speculation, really. At least up to this point in the novels/anime. Your theory is as good as Koizumi's. ;)

Also anyone want to speculate on post Graduation/novel Haruhi? I see her taking the SOS with her and turning it into a Private Investigation firm. That or she'd join Japan's version of the FBI's X-File unit.

Haruhi/Kyon as a gender-swapped Mulder and Scully... that would be kind of funny. :heh:

I disagree. I think that the more success Haruhi experiences, the more ambitious she'll become and more willing to take risks.

Success in a general sense, sure. But we're not talking about bold financial ventures; we're talking about simple games, like baseball and computer games.

A person who never loses at anything is a person who can't relate to anybody who does... and hence, we see one of the causes behind Haruhi's inability to have empathy for others.

Also, losing often gives a person the added incentive needed to better themselves and push themselves to be stronger. I mean - this is the whole idea behind the famous Rocky movies. And heck, you see a lot of it in shonen anime too - you can't tell me that Ichigo's embarrassing defeat at Byakuya's hands in Season 1 didn't help motivate him to become the toughest fighter that he could be.

A person who wins all the time is a person who finds everything easy, and hence motivation to push themselves or challenge themselves will naturally diminish over time.

I recall the New England Patriots going into the SuperBowl the year when they went undefeated up until that point. Then... when they finally faced some real adversity in the SuperBowl, the biggest game of them all, they lost. They lost, perhaps, because they never learned how to deal with a losing situation all season long; you learn from your losses just as much (if not more) than you learn from your victories. Any pro sports coach will tell you that, I think.

Haruhi would really benefit from losing (once) at something - it could be a good learning experience for her, a good motivator for her, and a good catalyst for her learning to empathize with others more.

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-08-28, 23:00

Koizumi has a certain degree of freedom that both of the above lack. He isn't bound by the future (Mikuru), and nor is he bound to simply observe (Yuki). It would be better, I think, if he focused less on a case-by-case basis, and more on the big picture of Haruhi's maturing as a person.

Koizumi is bound by the fact that any problem he doesn't prevent from occurring has to be dealt with twice: once directly and once in damage control in the closed spaces that were created.

True. As I said over on the Koizumi thread, though, I really don't think that losing a baseball game would, in and of itself, cause Haruhi to destroy the universe.

Except all three groups seem to believe that, and there's considerable evidence to back up the thought. Keep in mind that all three were worried about what was happening when Haruhi realized things weren't going her way. If the Data-whatever wasn't worried about what she was doing, Nagato wouldn't have been able to go along with Koizumi's suggestion of cheating their way to victory.

While we don't get as much from the time travelers, the fact that Mikuru was notified at the same time as the other two proves that she was also warned of what Haruhi was doing.

Triple_R

2009-08-28, 23:07

Except all three groups seem to believe that, and there's considerable evidence to back up the thought.

Kogetsu... who the hell would even want to reboot the entire universe over losing an amateur baseball game?!

The idea is patently absurd.

Sure, Haruhi would be depressed over losing - probably cause a couple of closed spaces to appear (Koizumi's real concern, I suspect), but destroy the entire universe over it?

Really, now?

Even the most immature of little kids aren't like that.

Archon_Wing

2009-08-28, 23:11

One thing to remember is that we don't know what the higher ups in the 3 have planned, so anything they say has to be taken with a ton of salt. A lot of it is "we don't really know what will happen" and more theories than facts.

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-08-28, 23:24

Kogetsu... who the hell would even want to reboot the entire universe over losing an amateur baseball game?!

The idea is patently absurd.

As I've said before, Haruhi truly believes that anyone is capable of what she can do. The problem wasn't the game itself, but rather the fact that no one was even coming close to her abilities. At that point, she probably believed no one else cared. That is where the problem lies.

Kyon in particular was expected to do better than he did, and his inability to live up to Haruhi's expectations of him certainly contributed quite a bit to her emotional state.

Triple_R

2009-08-28, 23:32

As I've said before, Haruhi truly believes that anyone is capable of what she can do. The problem wasn't the game itself, but rather the fact that no one was even coming close to her abilities. At that point, she probably believed no one else cared. That is where the problem lies.

Kyon in particular was expected to do better than he did, and his inability to live up to Haruhi's expectations of him certainly contributed quite a bit to her emotional state.

... Ok, I like this reasoning, after giving it some thought. When you mentioned this reasoning before, I wasn't sure what to make of it at the time (which is why I didn't respond to it), but within the context of the baseball game... yeah, I see what you're saying here. It does, of course, also serve to explain why Haruhi doesn't feel special in spite of her considerable educational and athletic accomplishments.

Nukerjsr

2009-08-29, 01:53

I think everyone here has a really good idea on how Haruhi thinks. It's kind of strange really to me that we can't fully understand what her true thoughts are being the pure antagonist for the show. The only thing that I really wanna push is that I do not believe that Haruhi is a character who we can feel sympathetic about and I hope some of her personal issues are handled well in the light novels or anime.

The only thing that feels absurd to me about the whole issue is the "John Smith" thing. Honestly, there are many things wrong with the mentality of the whole issue. Why would she be so concerned about a guy that she knew for one day and treated him like crap the entire time. Not to mention, that the time-span was only 3 years and even in that period of time, she should be able to know who Kyon is by then.

I really think Triple_R has the right idea where Haruhi separates herself from humanity and humanity basically complies by not really caring about her. She does get her way and she does succeed, but the victories themselves are very empty. They only really please Haruhi and keep the espers from worrying. In fact, they are rather disheartening for the people involved like the baseball team or computer club.

Baltakatei is also right in the sense that she can't accept failure. It's hard to tell that if she's spoiled or if she sees others as being lowly to her that she's just so used to succeeding that she doesn't know how to experience failure and may over-react to it. (Which may be fine, but Koizumi and Mikuru do have that universe to worry about.)

In general, I think Haruhi may be more oblivious or unfocused than most people think because she doesn't think about many possibilities or what may lie ahead. You can really see this with Mikuru because of how often Haruhi gets jealous of her being close to Kyon. I don't think it occured to Haruhi, that because Mikuru-chan is seen as being one of the most attractive girls at the school, that Kyon also might find her attractive and get embarrassed when Mikuru is close.

Triple_R

2009-08-29, 03:08

I think everyone here has a really good idea on how Haruhi thinks. It's kind of strange really to me that we can't fully understand what her true thoughts are being the pure antagonist for the show.

I don't know if I'd call her the pure antagonist for the show. The goal, after all, is not to defeat Haruhi, but rather to manage her.

In fact, that's what a lot of the discussion on this thread is about. Itsuki, Mikuru, and Yuki aren't trying to change Haruhi, or to reform her as though she was a pure antagonist. They're not taking a pro-active approach and trying to actually reason with her. They're just trying to have events unfold in a way that pleases her, and manages her psychological state in a way that will prevent problems from arising. And they do this almost entirely on a case-by-case basis.

Here is where I give Kyon the most credit... and it's probably where I sympathize with him the most. He does have his moments of being pro-active; of actually trying to reason with Haruhi and get her to see things differently. The other SOS Brigade members don't even bother to try... they basically shift all responsibilities unto Kyon when it comes to making Haruhi more manageable on a long-term basis. If I was Kyon, I'd be a bit ticked off with them too.

The only thing that I really wanna push is that I do not believe that Haruhi is a character who we can feel sympathetic about and I hope some of her personal issues are handled well in the light novels or anime.

I sympathize with her in the sense that there's nobody that fully shares her interests. Kyon holds those same interests to a degree, but nowhere near as passionately as Haruhi does; of course, that's partly (if not largely) due to how Haruhi is so energetic while Kyon is so, well, lazy usually. :heh:

Haruhi really has nobody to be a close personal friend with. Kyon shares her interests to a degree, but not her intensity. Tsuruya shares her intensity (just about), but not her interests. And Itsuki, Mikuru, and Yuki are just trying to manage and/or observe her. It's also a little bit dehumanizing the way that Kyon, Itsuki, Mikuru, and Yuki frequently view Haruhi. They want her to be happy not for her own sake, but for the world's.

Haruhi doesn't have anybody in her own universe much like her at all.

... There's some reason here to feel sympathy for her.

You could be right about the John Smith thing. Maybe people have attached too much significance to that. I'm mostly going with the flow there, I have to admit.

I really think Triple_R has the right idea where Haruhi separates herself from humanity and humanity basically complies by not really caring about her. She does get her way and she does succeed, but the victories themselves are very empty. They only really please Haruhi and keep the espers from worrying. In fact, they are rather disheartening for the people involved like the baseball team or computer club.

Agreed, and thanks. :)

The signal most pitiable character in this anime remains the Computer Club President for me. Moreso than Mikuru - Mikuru chose to put herself in this situation; the Computer Club President didn't choose to be victimized by Haruhi.

In general, I think Haruhi may be more oblivious or unfocused than most people think because she doesn't think about many possibilities or what may lie ahead.

Oh, I absolutely agree. I think that people sometimes mistake Haruhi's raw brilliance and energy to be a reflection of a keenly efficient and focused mind.

She doesn't have that, in my view. And, actually, her movie production shows it.

Haruhi's abundant, but raw, intelligence and creativity, comes out a lot during that production, as she puts forward some genuinely good ideas and observations. However, you also see how flighty she is; how she lacks disciplined thought and the ability to achieve smooth complete follow through. She moves pretty eccentrically from moment to moment, creating the movie in a piecemeal whimsical fashion.

In a way, this is what makes Haruhi so potentially dangerous - she's brilliant and she's erratic.

Heatth

2009-08-29, 06:26

I don't know if I'd call her the pure antagonist for the show. The goal, after all, is not to defeat Haruhi, but rather to manage her.

This still makes her the antagonist, though.

In fact, that's what a lot of the discussion on this thread is about. Itsuki, Mikuru, and Yuki aren't trying to change Haruhi, or to reform her as though she was a pure antagonist. They're not taking a pro-active approach and trying to actually reason with her. They're just trying to have events unfold in a way that pleases her, and manages her psychological state in a way that will prevent problems from arising. And they do this almost entirely on a case-by-case basis.

You are right here. However, as you said, Only Koizumi and his Organization have any motivation to do so. The reason they don't do nothing, in my opinion, is they are scare to death of her. I mean, as far as they know and believe, Haruhi is someone wo can destroy/remake the universe at any momment for the most trival things. They are not going to rist trying to change her, as this would possible make things even worse.

I sympathize with her in the sense that there's nobody that fully shares her interests. Kyon holds those same interests to a degree, but nowhere near as passionately as Haruhi does; of course, that's partly (if not largely) due to how Haruhi is so energetic while Kyon is so, well, lazy usually. :heh:

Haruhi really has nobody to be a close personal friend with. Kyon shares her interests to a degree, but not her intensity. Tsuruya shares her intensity (just about), but not her interests.

Interesting way to think here. Never have see it by that angle.

And Itsuki, Mikuru, and Yuki are just trying to manage and/or observe her. It's also a little bit dehumanizing the way that Kyon, Itsuki, Mikuru, and Yuki frequently view Haruhi. They want her to be happy not for her own sake, but for the world's.

Well, most would find kinda hard thinking in anyone else while theworld is being destoryed. :heh: I would also like to point that Nagato don't give a damn to the world and Mikuru don't eve believe it is in danger (as she comes from a future that the world still exist). For Kyon, it seen he cares for Haruhi more then Koizumi. We can see in the Day of Sagitarius he thinks like you and believe a lost would be a benefit for Haruhi (he did allow the win not for Haruhi's sake, but for Nagato's).

The only thing that feels absurd to me about the whole issue is the "John Smith" thing. Honestly, there are many things wrong with the mentality of the whole issue. Why would she be so concerned about a guy that she knew for one day and treated him like crap the entire time. Not to mention, that the time-span was only 3 years and even in that period of time, she should be able to know who Kyon is by then.

I don't understand you here. BLR makes clear she still thinks in that Tanabata. John Smith is important because what he said after the work. You would be right if he had just gone after that, however, he is to Haruhi the first evidence that something strange is happening. Not just he did completely vanish after that but he mentioned he didn't "met any slider yet". If this is not a translation error, then the phare carry a huge meaning that Haruhi probably just understood after have gone.

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-08-29, 06:29

If that's an error, it's one that every translation has. :heh:

Heatth

2009-08-29, 06:44

Do you know the original meaning then?

All the latin based languages translation on B-T seens to use it. It could be because all of then based their translation on the english one, however (I don't know if is true).

PP:
And then, I just now noticed you begined your post with a 'if'. :heh: Nevermind then.

GMT

2009-08-29, 10:07

I think everyone here has a really good idea on how Haruhi thinks. It's kind of strange really to me that we can't fully understand what her true thoughts are being the pure antagonist for the show. The only thing that I really wanna push is that I do not believe that Haruhi is a character who we can feel sympathetic about and I hope some of her personal issues are handled well in the light novels or anime.

The only thing that feels absurd to me about the whole issue is the "John Smith" thing. Honestly, there are many things wrong with the mentality of the whole issue. Why would she be so concerned about a guy that she knew for one day and treated him like crap the entire time. Not to mention, that the time-span was only 3 years and even in that period of time, she should be able to know who Kyon is by then.
I would suspect that her concern for John Smith is threefold.
First, John Smith willingly helped her out in her act of grand vandalism. Any other random North High student who spotted her after hours wouldn't have been impressed with her egotism and she'd have been brought home to her parents in the back of a squad car. Imagine how the series would've turned out if that happened.

Second, there is the little conversation she and John Smith had after their successful vandalism of school grounds. They talked about weird and strange things. Conveniently she meets and talks to this strange man right after she made this huge Tanabata wish.

It also helps that she heard him, or someone shout out to her on the way home to 'take care of John Smith.' This is revealed in Disappearance and is explained fully later on.
Third, John Smith completely disappears after that special night. It's the first truly weird and out-of-this-world thing Haruhi witnesses. (The whole stranger turns up in the nick of time, willingly helps her, talks to her about weird things, and then is never seen ever again thing. If Kyon had gone back to the future right in front of Haruhi's eyes, it probably would've blown her mind. And the rest of the world as a direct result.)

Don't think she didn't look for him either. With typical Haruhi audacity, she infiltrated North High to search for John Smith.
She doesn't quite equate Kyon to John Smith because it has been three years, and she's come to the very logical conclusion that John Smith must've graduated high school by the time she started. Though there seems to be something about this 'Kyon' guy . . . :heh:

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-08-29, 10:21

Any other random North High student who spotted her after hours wouldn't have been impressed with her egotism and she'd have been brought home to her parents in the back of a squad car. Imagine how the series would've turned out if that happened.

There's just one thing I can say about that...

YOU CREATED A TIME PARADOX!!

OkamiNoKaze

2009-08-29, 10:53

She wasn't only looking for John Smith, she was also looking for "the person that was like her" that Kyon mentioned

Kaisos Erranon

2009-08-29, 12:14

This still makes her the antagonist, though.

"Antagonist" is such a loaded word, though. These days it's used interchangeably with "villain", which Haruhi most definitely is not.

I'd rather use "driving force of the plot", myself.

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-08-29, 12:19

So... "Miss Plot Device," then? :heh:

Triple_R

2009-08-29, 12:30

Heatth

2009-08-29, 14:19

"Antagonist" is such a loaded word, though. These days it's used interchangeably with "villain", which Haruhi most definitely is not.

I'd rather use "driving force of the plot", myself.

Overall, I'd agree. Haruhi wasn't an antagonist at all in Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody or Endless Eight.

Oh, I don't know much about how the englsih language changes... In the classical use of the wod she was the antagonist of EE(it was she who caused the loops). She did stop being the antagonst (chronologically) after Live A Live, however. She also wasn't during the BLR, as you said, Triple, and during the Lone Island (when it was Itsuki, insted).

'Miss Plot Device' work too. :heh:

Triple_R

2009-08-29, 14:33

Oh, I don't know much about how the englsih language changes... In the classical use of the wod she was the antagonist of EE(it was she who caused the loops). She did stop being the antagonst (chronologically) after Live A Live, however. She also wasn't during the BLR, as you said, Triple, and during the Lone Island (when it was Itsuki, insted).

'Miss Plot Device' work too. :heh:

Ah, I see, you're using 'antagonist' in the classic sense of "The character that presents problems and conflict for the protagonist". In more modern uses, though, a necessary prerequisite to the label "antagonist" is usually "A character that deliberately causes problems and conflict for the protagonist".

In Sighs, Haruhi is intentionally causing a hard time for Kyon and the gang... I mean, she's hearing their complaints, so...

In BLR and EE, though, Haruhi isn't really intentionally causing any problems. And, through out the anime/novels as a whole, she rarely does.

Heatth

2009-08-29, 14:49

In more modern uses, though, a necessary prerequisite to the label "antagonist" is usually "A character that deliberately causes problems and conflict for the protagonist".

Hmm, really? Didn't know that. This is what I would call 'villian'(tough this word might be too 'evil'). Eh you don't have another word for 'antagonist' then? Is an important consept in fiction isn't it? Should I call her a 'antagonist in the classical sense'?

Well, then I would say Haruhi was never an antagonist then. Even in Sighs, the problem was not the movie itself. Also, the only complening was Mikuru, Kyon(the protagonist) had nothing against the movie, but against how she treats Asahina.

PP:
In that sense of the word there is very few antagonist. For this wholle season(new+old episodes), the only ones were Ryouko and Koizumi(and his organization, at Lone Island).

Triple_R

2009-08-29, 15:00

Hmm, really? Didn't know that. This is what I would call 'villian'(tough this word might be too 'evil'). Eh you don't have another word for 'antagonist' then? Is an important consept in fiction isn't it? Should I call her a 'antagonist in the classical sense'?

Well, then I would say Haruhi was never an antagonist then. Even in Sighs, the problem was not the movie itself. Also, the only complening was Mikuru, Kyon(the protagonist) had nothing against the movie, but against how she treats Asahina.

PP:
In that sense of the word there is very few antagonist. For this wholle season(new+old episodes), the only ones were Ryouko and Koizumi(and his organization, at Lone Island).

You're right. Ryoko is the only true antagonist/villain that this anime has... at least thus far. Well... the Computer Club President is somewhat of an antagonist in Day of Sagittarius.

It's important to remember that a lot of animes don't have antagonists. K-On is completely bereft of them, for example.

For me, a villain is a character that deliberately causes problems and conflict for the protagonist... and is doing so for what most fans (at least) would consider villainous reasons. In Sighs, I would consider Haruhi's motivation for making the movie to be a good one - she wants to make her school's cultural festival better. It's still causing frustration/suffering for the SOS Brigade, though.

Let me give you an example of a character that's an antagonist but not a villain: Fate Testarossa in the original Nanoha anime.

Fate is deliberately causing problems and conflict for Nanoha... but she's doing it to help her mom, and it's not like she wants to hurt Nanoha; it's just that it's impossible for both of them to have all the jewel seeds.

Precia Testarossa is a good example of a villain. She delights in inflicting pain on Fate, after Fate switches to the protagonist side.

I should say, though, Heatth, that this is just my opinion. The terms antagonist and villain can be used very differently from site to site. Some sites are loath to call anybody a villain... other sites throw the term around casually.

Heatth

2009-08-29, 15:11

You're right. Ryoko is the only true antagonist/villain that this anime has... at least thus far. Well... the Computer Club President is somewhat of an antagonist in Day of Sagittarius.

It's important to remember that a lot of animes don't have antagonists. K-On is completely bereft of them, for example.

The Computer Club President! I've forgot about him. Yeah, he was the antagonist there. Btw I would say the antagonist of K-ON is the laziness of the girls. :p It is what prevent then to be a sucess as a band. But, well, is not like their objectives is beinga sucess(it is, actually, have fun), so I guess you are right

For me, a villain is a character that deliberately causes problems and conflict for the protagonist... and is doing so for what most fans (at least) would consider villainous reasons. In Sighs, I would consider Haruhi's motivation for making the movie to be a good one - she wants to make her school's cultural festival better. It's still causing frustration/suffering for the SOS Brigade, though.

You are right. 'Vilian' was not the better word.

Let me give you an example of a character that's an antagonist but not a villain: Fate Testarossa in the original Nanoha anime.

Fate is deliberately causing problems and conflict for Nanoha... but she's doing it to help her mom, and it's not like she wants to hurt Nanoha; it's just that it's impossible for both of them to have all the jewel seeds.

Precia Testarossa is a good example of a villain. She delights in inflicting pain on Fate, after Fate switches to the protagonist side.

Well, too bad I never watch Nanoha. I understand your point anyway. Another antagonist who is not a villian would be L from Death Note, even better, Matsuda and Father Yagami, both completely good person who are against the (vilanious) protagonist. Other exemples would be Chao from Negima!(not-so-bad things for an arguebly good reason), many aliens from GANTZ (many just stay quiet when the protagonist come to slay then) and most rivals from a competition anime (like Gary of Pokemon or Akira from Hikaru no Go).

Triple_R

2009-08-29, 15:15

The Computer Club President! I've forgot about him. Yeah, he was the antagonist there. Btw I would say the antagonist of K-ON is the laziness of the girls. :p

*ROFLMAO!!!*

Thanks, Heatth. That's the best laugh I've had all day. :D

It is what prevent then to be a sucess as a band. But, well, is not like their objectives is beinga sucess(it is, actually, have fun), so I guess you are right

You are right. 'Vilian' was not the better word.

Well, too bad I never watch Nanoha. I understand your point anyway. Another antagonist who is not a villian would be L from Death Note, even better, Matsuda and Father Yagami, both completely good person who are against the (vilanious) protagonist. Other exemples would be Chao from Negima!(not-so-bad things for an arguebly good reason), many aliens from GANTZ (many just stay quiet when the protagonist come to slay then) and most rivals from a competition anime (like Gary of Pokemon or Akira from Hikaru no Go).

You catch on fast, Heatth! Those are all good examples of how antagonist and villain are used these days.

OkamiNoKaze

2009-08-29, 18:09

In K-On's case, I suppose the advisor could fit, at least where Mio is concerned

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-08-29, 19:15

Precia Testarossa is a good example of a villain. She delights in inflicting pain on Fate, after Fate switches to the protagonist side.

Precia seemed to enjoy inflicting pain on Fate before the switch. Then again, she was insane. :heh:

Archon_Wing

2009-08-29, 19:25

Precia seemed to enjoy inflicting pain on Fate before the switch. Then again, she was insane. :heh:

Insanity tends to help your resume for evil villain. ;)

But geez, what what she said to Fate before the end was beyond screwed up. She literally did not care for her at all and still wanted to say messed up stuff on the verge of death, while Fate was pouring her heart out.

ac195

2009-08-30, 02:50

The only thing that feels absurd to me about the whole issue is the "John Smith" thing. Honestly, there are many things wrong with the mentality of the whole issue. Why would she be so concerned about a guy that she knew for one day and treated him like crap the entire time. Not to mention, that the time-span was only 3 years and even in that period of time, she should be able to know who Kyon is by then.

I really think Triple_R has the right idea where Haruhi separates herself from humanity and humanity basically complies by not really caring about her. She does get her way and she does succeed, but the victories themselves are very empty. They only really please Haruhi and keep the espers from worrying. In fact, they are rather disheartening for the people involved like the baseball team or computer club.

Baltakatei is also right in the sense that she can't accept failure. It's hard to tell that if she's spoiled or if she sees others as being lowly to her that she's just so used to succeeding that she doesn't know how to experience failure and may over-react to it. (Which may be fine, but Koizumi and Mikuru do have that universe to worry about.)

In general, I think Haruhi may be more oblivious or unfocused than most people think because she doesn't think about many possibilities or what may lie ahead. You can really see this with Mikuru because of how often Haruhi gets jealous of her being close to Kyon. I don't think it occured to Haruhi, that because Mikuru-chan is seen as being one of the most attractive girls at the school, that Kyon also might find her attractive and get embarrassed when Mikuru is close.

Regarding the BLR... she cares about "John Smith" because he was the first person she met with a similar mindset.
She can't recognized Kyon because:
1) it was dark
2) it was three years ago (he shouldn't still be in HS, you forget that she does have some common sense)
3) she was probably more concerned about her doodle more than the guy doing it at the time.

Also, regarding her oblivious/unfocused self... keep in mind that she is only a first/second year high school girl. Yes she can bend reality to her will... but she's only around 16 years old.

A lot of people accuse Haruhi of being a sociopath, and yes her lack of respect for norms, people, and just basically everything is quite disgusting at times. Though we do have to realize she is the ultimate spoiled child-- the universe spoils her, quite literally.

Because it bends to her will, she has never had to compromise with anyone. She wants to have fun, and she sincerely believes other people are enjoying it too despite their collective groans and whining. But since nobody would dare oppose her, she thinks it's all ok and that everyone is playing their roles. It eventually gets boring, because everything seems too easy.

Enter Kyon. He's the only one that doesn't act like a doormat to her, and actually provides oppoistion. She seems to genuinely want attention from him because of this. Plus you have to realize how the other 3 view her as...

The aliens view her as a key to evolution.
The espers view her as a god who would destroy the world out of boredom.
The Time Travelers see her as a roadblock.

Basically, nobody really sees her for herself. If she didn't have special abilities, then none of these factions would have given a damn about her. So it seems only natural she would be interested in the one that doesn't have an agenda.

And so, Haruhi is apretty damned interesting character. ;) If only you know who you were.

My thoughts agree with you 100% here. Note, that Kyon's opposition is usually constructive and not just a means to impede Haruhi's actions... meaning, he actually gets her to question her own thought processes with well reasoned questioning.

quigonkenny

2009-08-30, 03:34

Also anyone want to speculate on post Graduation/novel Haruhi? I see her taking the SOS with her and turning it into a Private Investigation firm. That or she'd join Japan's version of the FBI's X-File unit.Haruhi/Kyon as a gender-swapped Mulder and Scully... that would be kind of funny. :heh:
Been there, done that (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakushiji_Ryōko_no_Kaiki_Jikenbo).

It was actually pretty good.

Hmm, really? Didn't know that. This is what I would call 'villian'(tough this word might be too 'evil'). Eh you don't have another word for 'antagonist' then? Is an important consept in fiction isn't it? Should I call her a 'antagonist in the classical sense'?
There is no "classical sense" in the definition of antagonist. There's only the "one who contends with or opposes another" definition, as Merriam-Webster (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/antagonist) so succinctly puts it, or the "hardly anyone knows how to create a complex story anymore so let's just dumb down the language further (ironically making it more difficult to tell complex stories in the process) and say that 'antagonist' means 'villain'" definition. The second one is wrong, by the way.

She can sometimes be the antagonist. Over the course of the series I'd dare say she is most often the antagonist. But not always. And this is a series with very few (if any) true "villains".

I mentioned this over on the Koizumi thread, but I think it bears repeating here since it applies to Haruhi as well... Koizumi is really hurting her emotional maturing, I think, by always going out of his way to ensure that she never loses (as he did through his talks with Kyon during the baseball game and in Sagittarius III).

Honestly, I think that Haruhi would probably, over the long term, benefit from losing at a competition that she genuinely cared about.

Losing, every now and then, can build character. It can make a person more hardy, and more accepting of the idea that they can't always have their way.
One of the reasons why he's my least favorite character. Cartman put it best when he said, "Democrats piss me off."

Jonbob0008

2009-08-30, 08:12

He can't blame him too much, though. If her temper tantrum gets too bad, *poof* and the universe is gone. He's just picking what he thinks is the lesser of two evils.

Takamura Mamoru

2009-08-30, 15:43

Regarding Koizumi, it kind of makes Kyon more special, if you think about it. Haruhi dominates Mikuru anyway, Yuki is apathetic to the situation and will go along and Koizumi actually tries to statisfy Haruhi. And everyone else just ignores Haruhi when she's being a jerk to them.. So basically, Haruhi never had anyone telling her "you can't do that", which is why everything works out for her. That and her divine powers most likely help her at winning as well. Think about if everything would work just fine in your life. Of course the world is boring then! That's the entire reason for her melancholy. And then there's Kyon. Kyon sticks with her but still objects to things she does. It's like she wants Kyon to set boundaries for her. He's the only wall she has.

So you could say Koizumi is acting wrong here, in going along with whatever she thinks up, but think about it from his point of view. He was pretty much made to be the guy cleaning up Haruhi's mess. With his Esper powers. If he doesn't go along with what Haruhi says, it only get's worse for him. However, it's not like he doesn't want Haruhi to "grow up", as evidenced by his talks of appreciation to Kyon, regarding Kyon making Haruhi develop into a good direction. In hindsight, it's also good for him, but he probably can't change Haruhi like Kyon does.

I also really like Haruhi's and Kyon's relationship, because there are many, many themes playing a role in it.

Regarding Haruhi being a tsundere... Oh boy, that's very controversial, really. She's sometimes marketed as one, I think. And I know many people will immediately raise eyebrows when Haruhi and tsundere are mentioned in the same sentence. I know from experience many people on /a/ don't think she's a tsundere and will tell people so.

Personally, I don't think she is one. This is subjective, both because the definition of tsundere may vary from person to person and because people see her in a different light.
But I think that even if she has a side that is dere for Kyon, I don't really see her that tsun. She doesn't like to show that she has romantic feelings or that she's affected by Kyon in such a way, yes. But she never really goes out of her way to hurt Kyon in any way. As I said before, he's the only person she'll listen to and who can stop her.. If she were a tsundere, wouldn't she listen even less to what he has to say? I don't think so.
There's some embarassment in her relationship with Kyon, maybe because she regards it as a weakness. But it's not denial.
Lastly, I think there are many other character traits, so that even if she is tsundere for Kyon, it does not define her entire personality.

Triple_R

2009-08-30, 15:57

Regarding Koizumi, it kind of makes Kyon more special, if you think about it.

Oh, I definitely get that. And, as such, story-wise/thematic-wise, it may be good that Koizumi is the way that he is. I just don't think that it's a good way to be; basically, yes, the story forces him to be that way, but that still doesn't let him off the hook entirely, imo.

I'm actually not convinced that Haruhi wouldn't listen to Koizumi or Yuki if they spoke up against her; I mean, I think that she'd give them as much heed as she does Kyon anyway. Actually, Haruhi seems to hold Koizumi in a slightly better light than the rest of the Brigade - he's officially the 2nd-in-Command after her, correct?

Perhaps Koizumi's only crime is underestimating his own ability to influence Haruhi. I don't think that she's attached to him as much as she is to Kyon, but I do think that she respects Koizumi a fair bit, and likes him as a friend.

I will say this in fairness to Koizumi, though; his entire organization seems to believe that constant appeasement is the only way to go when it comes to handling Haruhi. So, it's possible that he doesn't agree with that, but has to go along with the organization's wishes anyway.

Personally, I don't think she is one. This is subjective, both because the definition of tsundere may vary from person to person and because people see her in a different light.
But I think that even if she has a side that is dere for Kyon, I don't really see her that tsun. She doesn't like to show that she has romantic feelings or that she's affected by Kyon in such a way, yes. But she never really goes out of her way to hurt Kyon in any way. As I said before, he's the only person she'll listen to and who can stop her.. If she were a tsundere, wouldn't she listen even less to what he has to say? I don't think so.
There's some embarassment in her relationship with Kyon, maybe because she regards it as a weakness. But it's not denial.
Lastly, I think there are many other character traits, so that even if she is tsundere for Kyon, it does not define her entire personality.

Great points. I agree. :)

Volcanic

2009-08-30, 16:34

Haruhi's relationships with the rest of the brigade are really something to ponder about.

Kyon: She obviously loves him in some way. But she plays Tsundere with him, of course. If she had a different personality, they might even be dating by now.

Mikuru: This is one to think about. Haruhi obviously thinks something of Mikuru...:heh: But other than that, nothing much to go on. If it wasn't for the whole "Haurhi is a jerk and she forces Mikuru into outfits" thing, and Haurhi was a bit nicer, they could be friends, considering Tsuruya is kinda like that.

Itsuki: He's second in command, she probably thinks good of him. Like Mikuru, not much to go from there. He's quite loyal to her, though, so she might trust him a bit.

Yuki: She's definitely the furthest from Yuki, so to speak. They never really talk, and there's points that Haruhi doesn't seem to know she's there. (And everyone else, for that matter :heh: ) If Haruhi making everyone pay a visit to her when she has a 'fever' is any indication, though, she might care about her.

Ithekro

2009-08-30, 16:44

Haruhi seems to acknowledge Yuki in the area of sports (weird for the thin book reader to be considered the sports star). Yuki beats Haruhi at swimming and that run in Signs was probably faster than any world record holder.

Heatth

2009-08-30, 16:46

Volcanic

2009-08-30, 16:48

I agree here. I also have something(spoileriffc) to add about Yuki:
Haruhi cares to Yuki enough to be pissed when she thinks the Studant Concil President was bulying her.

Haruhi seems to acknowledge Yuki in the area of sports (weird for the thin book reader to be considered the sports star). Yuki beats Haruhi at swimming and that run in Signs was probably faster than any world record holder.

Thanks for reminding me guys, :heh:

Anyway, looking at this, Haruhi probably does care about Yuki quite a bit. Despite the fact that she just sits in the corner all day, Haruhi, who comes off as a jerk to all, does acknowledge her.

Triple_R

2009-08-30, 16:55

At a very basic level, at least, Haruhi cares about all of her Brigade members. They're her Brigade members; there's only four of them, and they're the four people she's come to rely upon the most in her life.

I firmly believe, for example, that if either of the SOS Brigade members were to, say, be diagnosed with cancer and have to go to the hospital for a few days, that Haruhi would be extremely supportive and hang out with that member almost every step of the way. While Haruhi is probably uniquely close to Kyon of the four, she's very loyal to all four, I think.

Haruhi is actually a very good friend in some ways. She's quite reliable.

Takamura Mamoru

2009-08-30, 17:42

I think that came through character development though. In the Melancholy arc, I got the impression she didn't think of them as that important, mostly because she was fine with discarding the whole Brigade for a more interesting world. (Except for Kyon).

Now she views them as real people and friends and she'll protect them, I'm just not sure if that was always the case.

Nukerjsr

2009-08-30, 18:13

I don't know if I'd call her the pure antagonist for the show. The goal, after all, is not to defeat Haruhi, but rather to manage her.

I was thinking about that, in a way that she is kind of contradictory. She's not only the antagonist, but the protagonist as well. (More like, Co-Protagonist along with Kyon) And while you do have the threats of everyone else, Haruhi is the one who still has control over the fate of the world.

Haruhi really has nobody to be a close personal friend with. Kyon shares her interests to a degree, but not her intensity. Tsuruya shares her intensity (just about), but not her interests. And Itsuki, Mikuru, and Yuki are just trying to manage and/or observe her. It's also a little bit dehumanizing the way that Kyon, Itsuki, Mikuru, and Yuki frequently view Haruhi. They want her to be happy not for her own sake, but for the world's.

Haruhi doesn't have anybody in her own universe much like her at all.

... There's some reason here to feel sympathy for her.

I really understand where you are coming from, but I think it's hard to feel sympathetic with Haruhi as a whole. Even when I believe there are moments to feel sympathetic for Haruhi, there's something to counter that thought process. Various examples come from when she's thanked by ENOZ or when she explains why she wants to find supernatural people or the times she feels lonely. She has flaws, but these flaws that she has are mostly in her head which is why it's hard to bond with her.

Regarding the BLR... she cares about "John Smith" because he was the first person she met with a similar mindset.
She can't recognized Kyon because:
1) it was dark
2) it was three years ago (he shouldn't still be in HS, you forget that she does have some common sense)
3) she was probably more concerned about her doodle more than the guy doing it at the time.

Also, regarding her oblivious/unfocused self... keep in mind that she is only a first/second year high school girl. Yes she can bend reality to her will... but she's only around 16 years old.

I can see the common sense where John Smith would grow up and possibly move, but I'm sure that Haruhi could remember important things like his face or his voice. Especially since she's been hanging out with Kyon for a whole year.

And while you say that oblivious/unfocused thing, just because she's a teenager doesn't really give her all that much of an excuse. I don't mean to sound cliche, but she really doesn't realize what she is capable of because it feels like she belittles herself as a "normal" person. Or she doesn't expect what kind of things the "normal" people can do. The jealousy with Mikuru is a perfect example because while she still pushes Kyon around, she expects him to stay loyal and follow what she wants and not show Mikuru any unnecessary attention.

I wanna say that I agree with most people in the sense that the rest of the SOS Brigade babies over Haruhi since Kyon is always the one who has to deliver advice. She doesn't listen to Mikuru, Yuki doesn't do anything and Koizumi keeps his role as yes-man, so Haruhi doesn't have a chance to learn on her own.

In fact, this makes me wonder what things would be like if Tsuruya were apart of the Brigade, because it feels like she's the closest one on Haruhi's wavelength that she could consider a real friend.

Heatth

2009-08-30, 18:41

I can see the common sense where John Smith would grow up and possibly move, but I'm sure that Haruhi could remember important things like his face or his voice. Especially since she's been hanging out with Kyon for a whole year.

He saw the guy for only one day. It was dark enough to hide his face, and is really hard remember, for sure, anything after 3 years. And mor time she spend with Kyon, less likely is to relate he to John, as she get used to his voice/face as his, not someone else. Also, she did reconised Kyon to a degree. "Have we met before?". She did give a good look to him this time probably reconizing his face as similar to John's.

ac195

2009-08-30, 21:08

I can see the common sense where John Smith would grow up and possibly move, but I'm sure that Haruhi could remember important things like his face or his voice. Especially since she's been hanging out with Kyon for a whole year.

And while you say that oblivious/unfocused thing, just because she's a teenager doesn't really give her all that much of an excuse. I don't mean to sound cliche, but she really doesn't realize what she is capable of because it feels like she belittles herself as a "normal" person. Or she doesn't expect what kind of things the "normal" people can do. The jealousy with Mikuru is a perfect example because while she still pushes Kyon around, she expects him to stay loyal and follow what she wants and not show Mikuru any unnecessary attention.

Regarding "John Smith", she actually does carry some memory of his appearance. Have you forgotten the ("Have I met you some where before?") question she shot at Kyon during the Melancholy arc? But she most likely wrote it off as ridiculous because of that common sense... still, deep down, somewhere in the back of her mind... that image is still there.

Moving on... I don't know too many teenagers (around 16) who are that focused. It usually isn't until college that most young adults get some idea of that special something that they want in life... and even then, many still don't find exactly what "that" is and just settle for whatever gets them by in life. Haruhi doesn't need to settle for anything... she has a mountain of things to try (which she'll succeed at mind you...) and no time to worry.

Triple_R

2009-08-30, 23:09

I really understand where you are coming from, but I think it's hard to feel sympathetic with Haruhi as a whole. Even when I believe there are moments to feel sympathetic for Haruhi, there's something to counter that thought process. Various examples come from when she's thanked by ENOZ or when she explains why she wants to find supernatural people or the times she feels lonely. She has flaws, but these flaws that she has are mostly in her head which is why it's hard to bond with her.

Haruhi's chief flaw is simply lack of empathy for others. No, on second thought, it's a bit deeper than even that... she flat out doesn't understand most other people, period. She doesn't get why people are interested in "normal" or "ordinary" past times at all.

I think I see your point; your point being that if Haruhi simply met other people where they already are and shared time with them at their past times, then she'd be quite popular and have loads of friends. Yes, with her combination of athleticism, attractive appearance, energy, intelligence, personal charisma, and sheer talent, she definitely would.

At some level, I can understand a person looking at Haruhi, with all the strengths to her character that collectively most people would dream to have, and doing a Kyon facepalm over 'Why doesn't she just take advantage of these personal strengths more?'

On the other hand, though, I just find it hard to hold a person's choice of interests against him or her. In a fitting sort of way, simply being an anime fan makes it easier for me to relate to Haruhi. My interests aren't terribly common for people my age who live where I do either, and this can make it harder for me to socialize with other people in the real world too.

CrowKenobi

2009-08-31, 01:12

Haruhi's chief flaw is simply lack of empathy for others. No, on second thought, it's a bit deeper than even that... she flat out doesn't understand most other people, period. She doesn't get why people are interested in "normal" or "ordinary" past times at all. I think that also Haruhi could be tagged as a "loner" with her attitude and "gifts" that sets her apart from others. The Loners are Freaks (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LonersAreFreaks) trope kinda fits her IMHO. :D

And with the experiences of the SOS Brigade (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Nakama) she shares in, she gradually loses those loner tendencies (we hope!). :p

Jonbob0008

2009-08-31, 04:01

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-08-31, 04:08

Depends on how she finds out.

If she's simply told she could do that stuff, she'd call the person a liar.
If something unusual were to happen in front of her, she'd get excited, but either wouldn't make the connection or try to rationalize it.
If she is deliberately shown what she can do... Hmm... If we're talking right away, I don't think there'd be any problems. Basically, she'd probably do the same sort of thing a little kid would do if they were told they could have anything they wanted in a toy store. However, anyone in that position is bound to take advantage of the situation at some point.

ac195

2009-08-31, 04:09

Okay, here's a question or you guys. There's no wrong answer, but your answer will likely show your opinion about Haruhi's character. Here it is:

What do you think would be the first thing Haruhi would do if she found out about her powers?

Take over the world... then the galaxy... and then the universe... all the while waving the SOS-dan flag.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-08-31, 04:11

The ability to do whatever you want, to change whatever you want, just by thinking it, is a power almost outside the bounds of human conception.

She'd probably go insane, eventually.

ac195

2009-08-31, 04:15

Oh, I forgot to add... then move to a parallel world and rise and repeat.

Nukerjsr

2009-08-31, 04:21

I think she would then test it, to see if it is really true. And after that happens, she'll probably spend a long time contemplating to herself about her life.

Then...it's hard to call. I think aliens, espers, and time-travelers would start to influx into everyday life and Haruhi would take the time to know every single one of them in spectacular ways. Like a shonen show.

Same question to you, JonBob.

Triple_R

2009-08-31, 05:43

Okay, here's a question or you guys. There's no wrong answer, but your answer will likely show your opinion about Haruhi's character. Here it is:

What do you think would be the first thing Haruhi would do if she found out about her powers?

I think that she'd infuse the world with all sorts of bizarre alien creatures, and super powered folks. In a way, maybe this is what creates the DC comic book universe, lol. :heh:

In time, I suspect one or both of two things would become clear to Haruhi...

1) The above is wrecking serious havoc on the world (some of the bizarre alien creatures and super powered folks are causing massive destruction and possibly loss of life).

2) Now the unusual is starting to seem boring to Haruhi.

Either way, I suspect that Haruhi may create a safer pocket universe, of sorts, from which she could safely watch the exciting exploits of her creations, while her own universe remains stable.

How long the above continues before inescapable boredom sets in... who knows? Perhaps ironically, I could see Haruhi eventually wishing to have memory of her powers removed, and we're right back at Square One... ;)

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-08-31, 05:45

Leading to another timequake!

Takamura Mamoru

2009-08-31, 05:59

I honestly can't imagine what she'd do if she found out, really. Maybe she'd lose all grounds in reality..

THe thing is, if she really starts giving up on this world and creates a new world... And that world will get boring at some point as well.. And she creates a new world again.. And again and again.. Because she'd never be statisfied - If you're a god, everything "weird" will someday be boring, so you'll think up new stuff, until that gets boring.. And so on..

Maybe someday reality itself will fall apart because Haruhi snapped.

Ice Block

2009-08-31, 06:09

If it was just told to her straight away, IMO, she'd go:
No way! But this seems like a good idea for a movie. Yeah!
Now, where have I seen this before? :heh:

Honestly, I believe she'd refuse to use it to "cheat" her way through, I guess. Having no unknowns in your life is pretty boring. Speculation on what happens next... would bes.

Jonbob0008

2009-08-31, 06:11

.
Same question to you, JonBob.

I technically already answered this question in my fic. :heh:

I think she'd find or create some aliens, time-travelers and espers and hang out with them.

Now let me restate that this is the FIRST thing I think she would do. That's not the same as what she would eventually do.

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-08-31, 06:14

I think she'd find or create some aliens, time-travelers and espers and hang out with them.

... So are you implying she already knows? ;)

Kaisos Erranon

2009-08-31, 14:26

Leading to another timequake!

Oh boy. Crack theories:

a) Haruhi knew about her powers before 3YA, and that event was her removing her knowledge of them after becoming tired of them, nothing more.

or b) 3YA acts as an E8-like "respawn point", and Haruhi has found out about her powers, whether due to Kyon or not, many, many times before. After every time, she ends up returning the universe to 3YA so that maybe this time, things will turn out differently. So yeah, the entire series is a time loop like E8.

GMT

2009-08-31, 15:02

The ability to do whatever you want, to change whatever you want, just by thinking it, is a power almost outside the bounds of human conception.

She'd probably go insane, eventually.
Yes. I figure if she found out about her powers in a way where she didn't immediately dismiss the announcement as being entirely outside the bounds of logic, one would have a very tiny window in which to act before she becomes uncontrollable, uncontainable, and unstoppable. Somewhere between the time she finds out that she has powers and the point she subconsciously realizes that there's no way she's going to be able to handle her powers on purely human hardware and starts hijacking more and more of the universe's free energy and matter to handle her fast-expanding consciousness.

This could be what "closed space" is. It's just that the only thing really stopping her from undergoing an unstoppable recursive consciousness-expansion-unto-godhood is that she's constrained by not knowing and her fundamental goal of "Don't break my own common-sense," which she has rewritten the local laws of the universe to be compliant with (i.e., she spawned intelligent, autonomous agents (the Espers) whose compulsion it is to prevent Haruhi from witnessing anything that would conflict with that core goal of hers, and to shut down her ascent-to-godhood process whenever it tries to start up.)

Takamura Mamoru

2009-08-31, 16:36

And how would she react if Kyon said "I am John Smith" ?

GMT

2009-08-31, 17:36

And how would she react if Kyon said "I am John Smith" ?

In Disappearance de-powered Haruhi believed Kyon from the moment he told her. It galvanized her into collecting all the members of the Yuki-verse SOS-dan.Powered Haruhi would believe Kyon from the moment he told her. Immediately removing her "not knowing" constraint and her "Don't break Haruhi's common-sense" constraint. The unstoppable ascent to godhood would probably begin the moment Kyon finished filling her in. In short, Outside Context Problem for the whole universe.

Poor Kyon will probably be reincarnated as a Humanoid Interface when the resulting Haruhi Integrated Thought Entity of the universe to follow gets bored and starts looking for its own key to "auto-evolution."

Here's an epileptic tree:

Haruhi is the DITE. This is all an endless loop where one Haruhi discovers her godhood, spawns a new universe where she is an omniscient and near-omnipotent data entity, which starts looking for its own key to "auto-evolution," and discovers the latest incarnation of nascent goddess Haruhi and comes to watch her until the Kyon-analogue causes that Haruhi to discover her godhood, who then spawns a new universe where she is an omniscient and near-omnipotent data entity, which starts looking for its own key to "auto-evolution" . . . . .

Triple_R

2009-08-31, 18:05

I... think some people may be over-estimating how Haruhi would react to learning about her powers. Haruhi's by no means the first "mortal mind" in fiction that would come to knowingly hold such incredible power. I don't recall any of them going insane through sheer knowledge of their powers... I don't see why Haruhi would either.

Anybody here familiar with Marvel Comics' early 90s Infinity Gauntlet story? Or DC comics' Emperor Joker story? I mean... good grief, if the Joker can handle this, I should hope that Haruhi can. :heh:

GDB

2009-08-31, 18:28

Joker and Thanos were already somewhat insane. Thanos was in love with Death, the literal persona of Death, and we all know the deal with Joker.

Triple_R

2009-08-31, 18:41

Joker and Thanos were already somewhat insane.

And Haruhi isn't? :heh:

I mean, you have to be at least a touch crazy simply in order to stand up in class, and loudly proclaim that you're not interested in normal humans, but that you would love to hear from any aliens, espers, time travelers, or sliders.

It's really cool that you're familiar with the Infinity Gauntlet though. It's a classic for me that I really enjoyed.

GMT

2009-08-31, 18:54

I... think some people may be over-estimating how Haruhi would react to learning about her powers. Haruhi's by no means the first "moral mind" in fiction that would come to knowingly hold such incredible power. I don't recall any of them going insane through sheer knowledge of their powers... I don't see why Haruhi would either.
The thing is, unstoppable ascent to godhood would be one of the sane things to do in this circumstance (the other being to completely and utterly de-power herself in such a way where it is convincingly shown that she is no longer a threat to the future or the fabric of spacetime itself.)

Haruhi holds power that most gods would be envious of. If she were to become aware of her power, she immediately becomes the most dangerous entity in the whole universe (regardless of whether or not she actually intends to do anything dangerous.) A universe where the next step up is "nigh-on-omnipotent data entities who are more than capable of crushing everything she knows and loves like so many ants" or "representatives of her species' own future who, while considered by data entities to be primitive, are still likely to be dangerous and powerful beyond modern comprehension." So, once she becomes aware of her powers, her only two choices are to either give up that power completely, or embrace it completely.

To embrace it would be to go on a mental self-improvement recursion binge to godhood, rewrite the universe and use all that power to endlessly recurse through simulated universes where she's free to modify every variable she can think of to make things interesting. Maybe she and the SOS-dan would be active participants in each one. Or they'd transition over to the new universe as factions in a universe-spanning data entity. The resulting being would be utterly alien to us, but entirely in possession of her sanity.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-08-31, 18:57

Don't forget Orihime and Hikoboshi. Assuming they were the ones responsible for Haruhi's powers, they're probably a fair bit more powerful than she is.

GDB

2009-08-31, 18:59

And Haruhi isn't? :heh:

I mean, you have to be at least a touch crazy simply in order to stand up in class, and loudly proclaim that you're not interested in normal humans, but that you would love to hear from any aliens, espers, time travelers, or sliders.

I presume that to be more complete apathy towards things she doesn't care about than insanity.

Triple_R

2009-08-31, 19:01

The thing is, unstoppable ascent to godhood would be one of the sane things to do in this circumstance (the other being to completely and utterly de-power herself in such a way where it is convincingly shown that she is no longer a threat to the future or the fabric of spacetime itself.)

Haruhi holds power that most gods would be envious of. If she were to become aware of her power, she immediately becomes the most dangerous entity in the whole universe (regardless of whether or not she actually intends to do anything dangerous.) A universe where the next step up is "nigh-on-omnipotent data entities who are more than capable of crushing everything she knows and loves like so many ants" or "representatives of her species' own future who, while considered by data entities to be primitive, are still likely to be dangerous and powerful beyond modern comprehension." So, once she becomes aware of her powers, her only two choices are to either give up that power completely, or embrace it completely.

Well... I think she'd have a third option of simply wiping her awareness of her powers clean with out removing the powers themselves. That's something I could definitely see Haruhi do.

"Knowingly being able to literally do whatever I want whenever I want can actually get pretty boring after all... on the other hand, to go back to an entirely powerless normal human existence would seem hopelessly dull at this point... I know! I'll remove my awareness of being this powerful, but I'll keep the powers themselves. That's the ticket! This could be really fun and interesting!"

Kaisos Erranon

2009-08-31, 19:06

"Knowingly being able to literally do whatever I want whenever I want can actually get pretty boring after all... on the other hand, to go back to an entirely powerless normal human existence would seem hopelessly dull at this point... I know! I'll remove my awareness of being this powerful, but I'll keep the powers themselves. That's the ticket! This could be really fun and interesting!"

Like I said earlier, she may have already done this.

Triple_R

2009-08-31, 19:07

Like I said earlier, she may have already done this.

I agree. For me, this is one the leading theories behind the time quake.

GMT

2009-08-31, 19:14

Well... I think she'd have a third option of simply wiping her awareness of her powers clean with out removing the powers themselves. That's something I could definitely see Haruhi do.

"Knowingly being able to literally do whatever I want whenever I want can actually get pretty boring after all... on the other hand, to go back to an entirely powerless normal human existence would seem hopelessly dull at this point... I know! I'll remove my awareness of being this powerful, but I'll keep the powers themselves. That's the ticket! This could be really fun and interesting!"Status quo ante bellum. In order to do so, she'd first have to do the whole unstoppable ascent to godhood thing anyway, so she could rewrite the universe and restore the previous status quo without having to worry about the whole having revenge taken against her by eldritch abominations from beyond the stars thing . . . since none of them would remember Haruhi ascending to godhood, wiping out the universe and then restoring it from backup just so she could safely go back to having the powers and being locked out of the loop.

Maybe that's what Endless Eight was practice for. :heh:

GDB

2009-08-31, 19:18

Maybe that's what Endless Eight was practice for. :heh:

Then she failed, since the IDE was unaffected.

CrowKenobi

2009-08-31, 19:40

To quote Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:

There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.

There is another theory which states that this has already happened.So, Haruhi found out? :heh:

OkamiNoKaze

2009-08-31, 19:44

Hmm, I would like to see a Hitchhiker's parody sometime, even it were just pictures.

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-08-31, 22:22

GDB

2009-08-31, 22:36

House of M.

Bad example. Wanda did that because she went freaking bonkers bananas. He was trying to cite examples where absolute power did not absolutely corrupt.

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-08-31, 23:11

How is Emperor Joker any better of an example? At least in Wanda's case, she already had the reality altering powers when she went insane. :heh:

Ithekro

2009-08-31, 23:51

If one assumes that Three Years Ago is the save point for a massive thousand plus years time loop going beyond Mikuru BIG's time and the aliens are still outside time...then how many loops have they lived through to get their answer? Or is the theory that the aliens are not really aliens, but fragments of Haruhi's personality broken up trying to find and answer to some question she lost before transending...or perhaps she didn't fully transend, and wants to know why.

Would that make Yuki and Ryoko different aspects of Haruhi? Yuki her intelligence. or maybe her curiosity. Ryoko her happiness? Or maybe her yandere-like rage at Kyon for doing something stupid. Other aliens would be even more aspects of Haruhi, God Empress of the Universe...Looper of All Time.

quigonkenny

2009-09-01, 13:45

Okay, here's a question or you guys. There's no wrong answer, but your answer will likely show your opinion about Haruhi's character. Here it is:

What do you think would be the first thing Haruhi would do if she found out about her powers?
That's a problematic question, because how exactly does one show her that she has powers? As Kogetsu suggested, if you just flat out told her, she'd call you a liar (and go on to make a student film loosely based on the premise), and if Itsuki were somehow able to "go balling" in her presence, or Yuki turned a desk into a spear in front of her, she'd be absolutely delighted at this unexpected development, but would be totally dismissive of it having anything to do with herself.

Even if Kyon were to tell her he was John Smith (which, as shown in Disappearance, she would believe almost immediately), that would only be a variation on showing her a power (time travel, specifically) and, while excited, she would still be skeptical about herself being anything special. Kyon telling her he was specifically sent back to help her would be immediately rationalized and only elicit a tsundere blush and a dismissive remark about Kyon being a stalker and a lolicon. Any mention of her own foray into closed space would be similarly dismissed, but we might retroactively get a new faction (dream travelers) out of it.

No, the only way Haruhi's going to find out about her own abilities is by figuring it out herself, and due to Kyon's obliviousness and the manner of storytelling in the series, we'll probably get no more than the vaguest of hints that it's happening until she tells Kyon outright. What will she do first? Assuming her subconscious even lets her, probably something simple to prove it to herself (like giving herself the ability to fly, or speak Dog, etc.), but the first major thing she'd do would be to get back to some sort of status quo. Kyon's monologue at the beginning of Melancholy was just as descriptive of her as it was of himself. Remember the goal of the SOS-dan isn't to meet aliens, time travelers, and espers and gain their powers, it's to play with them.

Triple_R

2009-09-01, 16:51

That's a problematic question, because how exactly does one show her that she has powers? As Kogetsu suggested, if you just flat out told her, she'd call you a liar (and go on to make a student film loosely based on the premise), and if Itsuki were somehow able to "go balling" in her presence, or Yuki turned a desk into a spear in front of her, she'd be absolutely delighted at this unexpected development, but would be totally dismissive of it having anything to do with herself.

Even if Kyon were to tell her he was John Smith (which, as shown in Disappearance, she would believe almost immediately), that would only be a variation on showing her a power (time travel, specifically) and, while excited, she would still be skeptical about herself being anything special. Kyon telling her he was specifically sent back to help her would be immediately rationalized and only elicit a tsundere blush and a dismissive remark about Kyon being a stalker and a lolicon. Any mention of her own foray into closed space would be similarly dismissed, but we might retroactively get a new faction (dream travelers) out of it.

No, the only way Haruhi's going to find out about her own abilities is by figuring it out herself, and due to Kyon's obliviousness and the manner of storytelling in the series, we'll probably get no more than the vaguest of hints that it's happening until she tells Kyon outright. What will she do first? Assuming her subconscious even lets her, probably something simple to prove it to herself (like giving herself the ability to fly, or speak Dog, etc.), but the first major thing she'd do would be to get back to some sort of status quo. Kyon's monologue at the beginning of Melancholy was just as descriptive of her as it was of himself. Remember the goal of the SOS-dan isn't to meet aliens, time travelers, and espers and gain their powers, it's to play with them.

I have a hard time imagining Haruhi learning of her powers on her own. Her thinking is too grounded in reality. Remember how, in Sighs, her first thought at seeing Itsuki's "broken" cue card (not broken, but actually sliced into two pieces by Mikuru's Beam) was how it must simply be of low structural quality?

She also didn't appear to see anything odd about how Yuki then proceeded to rush over to Mikuru and start biting into her.

There's all sorts of little oddities in that scene, and Haruhi didn't pick up on any of them at all.

The only way I can see Haruhi learning of her powers is something like the following dialogue. Of course, this isn't how Kyon would ever talk to Haruhi, but if he was willing/able to talk to her like this, I could see it working...

Kyon: Haruhi... it's time that the truth was told to you.

Haruhi: The truth?

Kyon: Yes, you've been deceived by many of your best friends for quite some time now. But I - I am a faithful friend that can't bring myself to lie to you any more. You actually have immense reality-altering powers.

Haruhi: ... Kyon, what kind of silly game are you playing?

Kyon: I'm not playing a game at all. If you don't believe me, perhaps these words will resonate with you... I am John Smith.

Haruhi: ... ... You're serious then, aren't you?

Kyon: Of course. Now then, if you want visual confirmation of what I'm saying.... see that mountain over there?

Haruhi: Yes, what about it?

Kyon: Make it disappear.

Haruhi: W-what?!

Kyon: You can do it. Just close your eyes and imagine that it's gone - really believe that it doesn't exist any more.

Haruhi: That's crazy talk!

Kyon: Aaahhh... I'm so disappointed. I never thought that the great Haruhi Suzumiya would be so scared of a little challenge.

Haruhi: S-scared! I'm not scared of anything!

Kyon: Good! Neither am I. Then try the challenge! I double dare you!

Haruhi: It's not about being scared! It's that it's a stupid challenge.

Kyon: Ah, so you're scared of stupid things. What a laughable phobia... ha ha ha ha!

Haruhi: Grrr.... fine, Kyon, I'll show you, and I'll make that mountain disappear!

*Haruhi successfully does so, eventually shocking herself!*

Haruhi (proudly): A ha! See - it's gone!

This is perhaps the only way I could see for Haruhi learning of her powers. Reveal them to her, while also playing on her strong sense of pride as well as impulsive nature to get her to at least seriously test out the idea that she has them. Then, one (passed) test leads to another leads to another... until Haruhi accepts that she has these powers.

OkamiNoKaze

2009-09-01, 17:42

You think that's all it would take is for Kyon to say he was John Smith? Wouldn't she be doubtful of that as well at first too?

GMT

2009-09-01, 17:58

You think that's all it would take is for Kyon to say he was John Smith? Wouldn't she be doubtful of that as well at first too? As far as the whole world knows, the only person who carried out the vandalism of East Junior High was loli-Haruhi. She never told anybody about John Smith at all. So if Kyon announces that he's John Smith, he's going to have Haruhi's absolute, undivided attention.

It'd only take Kyon roughly the amount of time required for them to finish an iced coffee at the cafe to convince her that he's John Smith. Especially after telling his tale of how he carried a sleeping Mikuru to East Junior High and given detailed instructions by loli-Haruhi for vandalizing school grounds. And when he tells her what the giant pictograph means, it's going to blow her mind.

Jonbob0008

2009-09-01, 23:50

Kaisos Erranon

2009-09-01, 23:55

I have a different question to ask. If Haruhi likes Kyon so much (and it's obvious that she does), how come she hasn't subconsciously made it so that Kyon only has eyes for her?

Because that would be too easy. Haruhi doesn't just want to be handed things; she wants to have to work for them as well.

SgtHydra

2009-09-02, 00:01

Actually, I'd say that Haruhi might not be THAT easy to convince at the moment because she knows Kyon well enough to think of him as very, very, very normal. Kyon to her (concious mind) is the anti-John Smith. John Smith is having all sorts of adventures and loving every minute of it, while Kyon is an apathetic twit.

Regardless of WHAT convinces Haruhi, it won't be a simple "two words: John Smith" sort of scenario. Haruhi could easily rationalize his knowing of the name and the retelling of events in some conviluted way, which she will if it ever does come to Kyon revealing all. They might actually argue about it for a little bit as Haruhi tries to mentally imagine the most boring person she knows has been moonlighting as her "five second mentor" and role model. She'll eventually believe him, but it might take a bit.

The big difference between the alt. Haruhi and "our" Haruhi is that the former did not know Kyon at all. To her, it wasn't Kyon that popped up out of no where, but John Smith popping out of nowhere. To the latter Haruhi, Kyon has some explaining to do before she can really believe him.

But yeah, he'll grab her ear alright.

(And I bet that Haruhi already knows what the pictograph means. I'll also bet that the language apart of her personal code for the universe or something. Sorta like the SOS dan logo, only far more important. Key to autoevolution, perhaps? First step is... existance... then one can change the environment... then one can begin to change oneself... autoevolution, I guess.)

OkamiNoKaze

2009-09-02, 00:32

I was thinking she knows what the pictographs means too, even if it's on a subconscious level, I still think it's funny, she doesn't know she has powers, but on a couple of occasions she's called herself "Divine"

GMT

2009-09-02, 00:33

(And I bet that Haruhi already knows what the pictograph means. I'll also bet that the language apart of her personal code for the universe or something. Sorta like the SOS dan logo, only far more important. Key to autoevolution, perhaps? First step is... existance... then one can change the environment... then one can begin to change oneself... autoevolution, I guess.)
Of course she knows what it means. She commissioned it, after all. What'll blow her mind is when Kyon tells her what it means and gets it right, since she didn't tell anybody what it meant.

Triple_R

2009-09-02, 04:06

I have a different question to ask. If Haruhi likes Kyon so much (and it's obvious that she does), how come she hasn't subconsciously made it so that Kyon only has eyes for her?

Just wondering your thoughts...

Haruhi's powers are limited. She can't use them to affect the desires and wants of others. Perhaps the basic free will of others is not something she's able to manipulate. This would also help to explain why she hasn't forced Mikuru to comply more easily with her wishes.

Alternatively... maybe Haruhi doesn't like Kyon as much as some people think, or not in the way that some people think. Romance, in general, is a low priority for Haruhi. If it was a high priority for her, then one would expect her to wear a pony tail all the time... presuming, of course, that HaruhiKyon shippers are right.

Nukerjsr

2009-09-02, 04:21

Haruhi's powers are limited. She can't use them to affect the desires and wants of others. Perhaps the basic free will of others is not something she's able to manipulate. This would also help to explain why she hasn't forced Mikuru to comply more easily with her wishes.

Alternatively... maybe Haruhi doesn't like Kyon as much as some people think, or not in the way that some people think. Romance, in general, is a low priority for Haruhi. If it was a high priority for her, then one would expect her to wear a pony tail all the time... presuming, of course, that HaruhiKyon shippers are right.

I actually think there's a lot of morality in the subject of Haruhi/Kyon. Haruhi is really on that border on if she wants to fall in love because she can be vulnerable around Kyon, and trusts him, but has this really big hatred towards love because of what it does to people. Not to mention that if Haruhi wants Kyon to fall in love with her...what choice does he have? Emotional Rejection can be devastating. I think that Tanigawa didn't write any pure romance into the story just because everything the story and the relationship between Kyon and Haruhi would completely fall into place.

Triple_R

2009-09-02, 04:33

I actually think there's a lot of morality in the subject of Haruhi/Kyon. Haruhi is really on that border on if she wants to fall in love because she can be vulnerable around Kyon, and trusts him, but has this really big hatred towards love because of what it does to people. Not to mention that if Haruhi wants Kyon to fall in love with her...what choice does he have? Emotional Rejection can be devastating. I think that Tanigawa didn't write any pure romance into the story just because everything the story and the relationship between Kyon and Haruhi would completely fall into place.

I still think that there's a pretty decent chance that the novels/anime end with out any firmly established romantic pairing. The closest relationship I've seen to Haruhi/Kyon is Lina Inverse/Gourry Gabriev in Slayers... and that older anime relationship was never fully consummated either, largely due to Lina's own disinterest in romance and Gourray's inability to admit his true feelings to Lina.

What I mean by there being "free will" limits to Haruhi's powers is that she can't just make Kyon's appreciation for Mikuru's beauty disappear. Now, should Haruhi confess feelings of romantic love towards Kyon, then... he'll probably reciprocate, if for no other reason than because of his awareness of Haruhi's powers and how emotional rejection could cause them to create severe problems for the world. However, the choice would be his.

All of that being said, you're right that Haruhi is generally skeptical about the very concept of romantic love. To the extent that she has romantic feelings for Kyon, this creates a bit of a wall for her when it comes to actually acting on those feelings. Also, it's my view that Haruhi holds that it's the guy's responsibility to make the romantic confession (in a heterosexual relationship, anyway) - this is in keeping with how Haruhi dumped all of the guys she previously went out with because all but one of them never had the courage to admit his feelings for her... and the only one who did have the courage, never had quite enough to do it face-to-face as Haruhi wanted.

Should the novels/anime give us a firmly established Haruhi/Kyon romance... it's Kyon who's going to have to make the first move, I think.

Jonbob0008

2009-09-02, 04:56

I still think that there's a pretty decent chance that the novels/anime end with out any firmly established romantic pairing. The closest relationship I've seen to Haruhi/Kyon is Lina Inverse/Gourry Gabriev in Slayers... and that older anime relationship was never fully consummated either, largely due to Lina's own disinterest in romance and Gourray's inability to admit his true feelings to Lina.

What I mean by there being "free will" limits to Haruhi's powers is that she can't just make Kyon's appreciation for Mikuru's beauty disappear. Now, should Haruhi confess feelings of romantic love towards Kyon, then... he'll probably reciprocate, if for no other reason than because of his awareness of Haruhi's powers and how emotional rejection could cause them to create severe problems for the world. However, the choice would be his.

All of that being said, you're right that Haruhi is generally skeptical about the very concept of romantic love. To the extent that she has romantic feelings for Kyon, this creates a bit of a wall for her when it comes to actually acting on those feelings. Also, it's my view that Haruhi holds that it's the guy's responsibility to make the romantic confession (in a heterosexual relationship, anyway) - this is in keeping with how Haruhi dumped all of the guys she previously went out with because all but one of them never had the courage to admit his feelings for her... and the only one who did have the courage, never had quite enough to do it face-to-face as Haruhi wanted.

Should the novels/anime give us a firmly established Haruhi/Kyon romance... it's Kyon who's going to have to make the first move, I think.

I thought several of the boys confessed to her, but all of them were over the phone. Nevertheless, I doubt it was only their lack of courage that made her reject them. It was also the fact that they were boring to her. They'd always meet her at the train station and take het to a movie, carnival or some other typical dating location and Haruhi would just be bored to tears (not literally).

She wanted to meet some one exciting who also wasn't staisfied with doing only the ordinary. That was partly why she wanted to mean an alien, time-traveler or esper. She figured if they were any of those three, they'd have to be interesting.

BTW, I love the irony is that she actually knows someone who belongs in all three categories, and none of them are as interesting to her as the normal human.:heh:

I also think Haruhi would be fine with confessing herself, but either hasn't met anyone she would want to confess to or is too afraid of what would happen should she ever confess. My guess is the later, given what we know about her behavior around Kyon and what she's said about her thoughts on relationships. She might even secretly worry that Kyon would reject her. She already suspects that he likes Mikuru or Yuki (which he kinda does).

Triple_R

2009-09-02, 05:05

I thought several of the boys confessed to her, but all of them were over the phone.

I'm going to have to re-read that section of the novels - it's been awhile since I've read it. I got a distinct impression of...

1) Haruhi thinks that guy's should be the ones to make the romantic confession.

2) Only one of them even got the nerve up to confession in any sort of way... but he was over the phone (if not e-mail).

I could be misremembering.

Nevertheless, I doubt it was only their lack of courage that made her reject them. It was also the fact that they were boring to her. They'd always meet her at the train station and take her to a movie, carnival or some other typical dating location and Haruhi would just be bored to tears (not literally).

You could be right, but I recall Haruhi really stressing their lack of courage as a reason for why she dumped them all.

She wanted to meet some one exciting who also wasn't satisfied with doing only the ordinary. That was partly why she wanted to mean an alien, time-traveler or esper. She figured if they were any of those three, they'd have to be interesting.

BTW, I love the irony is that she actually knows someone who belongs in all three categories, and none of them are as interesting to her as the normal human.:heh:

I strongly agree with this. It is a neat point of irony.

I also think Haruhi would be fine with confessing herself, but either hasn't met anyone she would want to confess to or is too afraid of what would happen should she ever confess. My guess is the later, given what we know about her behavior around Kyon and what she's said about her thoughts on relationships. She might even secretly worry that Kyon would reject her. She already suspects that he likes Mikuru or Yuki (which he kinda does).

There's little doubt that she's worried that Kyon would reject her. She has a very keen eye for moments of closeness between Kyon and Mikuru, even noticing something as small and potentially innocent as Mikuru offering him her water bottle to drink out of during Sighs.

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-09-02, 05:16

She already suspects that he likes Mikuru or Yuki (which he kinda does).

Isn't it rather convenient how her relationship with Nagato improved quite a bit after the "dream" in SMS where Kyon said his increased attention to her was because he didn't want to see a friend leave, rather than any romantic reasons?

Jonbob0008

2009-09-02, 06:08

I'm going to have to re-read that section of the novels - it's been awhile since I've read it. I got a distinct impression of...

1) Haruhi thinks that guy's should be the ones to make the romantic confession.

2) Only one of them even got the nerve up to confession in any sort of way... but he was over the phone (if not e-mail).

I could be misremembering.

I re-read it. Her exact quote was this:

"Then, without fail, they would confess over the phone. What the hell! This is a serious subject, at least tell me face-to-face!!"

She specifically said "They" meaning more than one. Kyon then narrates about how Haruhi's expression likely intimidated them from confessing face-to-face.

Anyway, rereading the scene, the only thing that I got out of it was a) she thinks confessions should be face-to-face, and b) she thought all of the guys were boring.

There wasn't any mention of whether she thought a guy should be the one to confess. In fact, given her more assertive personality, I would think it would be more in her character for her to think it was fine for a girl to confess.

Triple_R

2009-09-02, 06:39

I re-read it. Her exact quote was this:

"Then, without fail, they would confess over the phone. What the hell! This is a serious subject, at least tell me face-to-face!!"

She specifically said "They" meaning more than one. Kyon then narrates about how Haruhi's expression likely intimidated them from confessing face-to-face.

Anyway, rereading the scene, the only thing that I got out of it was a) she thinks confessions should be face-to-face, and b) she thought all of the guys were boring.

There wasn't any mention of whether she thought a guy should be the one to confess. In fact, given her more assertive personality, I would think it would be more in her character for her to think it was fine for a girl to confess.

... I find it rather odd, then, for why Haruhi hasn't confessed much of anything towards Kyon. I'm not even sure if she's called him "friend", has she?

I misremembered the scene, clearly, but I misremembered it because, frankly, I find the handling of Haruhi and Kyon's relationship so hard to swallow at times. If Haruhi felt that it was the guy's job to make romantic confessions, then at least that would provide a believable reason for why she hasn't confessed anything to Kyon yet. I also personally prefer the idea of Kyon making the first move... because the general thrust of the novels and the anime is that Kyon's the one that has to change the status quo and get things happening.

I just have such a hard time imagining how a very strong-willed, always-makes-her-wishes-known girl like Haruhi could refrain for so long from making her romantic feelings clearly known to Kyon if...

1) She, in fact, has them.

2) She feels that it's Ok for her to make the first move.

Haruhi being a coward when it comes to romance just doesn't sit well with me; it's just so out-of-character for her given what she's like in every other area of life.

Nukerjsr

2009-09-02, 06:40

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-09-02, 06:50

We already know Haruhi's reaction to that knowledge. It's called "The Sigh of Haruhi Suzumiya." :heh:

As for the relationship thing, Haruhi is, somewhat paradoxically, very adherent to tradition. If she believes it's the guy's job to do the asking out, she isn't going to go against it.

Triple_R

2009-09-02, 06:52

Actually, this gave me an interesting thought combining the two debatable topics.

If Haruhi found out who Mikuru, Koizumi, and Yuki were, do you think her opinions on aliens, time travelers, and espers would change? I feel like she would consider them boring and uninteresting as she believes they are ordinary humans. Yuki reads, Koizumi's a yes man and Mikuru...is cute.

I don't really know all that much about Haruhi's opinions on Koizumi actually, so it's a hard call.

If Haruhi knew the truth about Mikuru, Koizumi, and Yuki...

1) Her interest in travelers from the future would decrease; she probably thinks that people are way different in the future, and Mikuru would basically demonstrate otherwise, at least in Haruhi's eyes.

2) She'd grill Yuki for information on herself. Then it's all a matter of how agreeable Yuki is.

If Yuki answers all of Haruhi's questions honestly and forthrightly, and met all of Haruhi's requests quickly ("Yuki, I simply must meet the Integrated Data Entity!"), then I suspect that Haruhi and Yuki would become best friends, at least for awhile. Heck, Haruhi could very well even go full-blown yuri for Yuki. :heh:

OTOH, if Yuki is evasive/short, and doesn't comply with Haruhi's requests, I could see Haruhi quickly viewing aliens as more boring than she suspected.

3) More or less the same deal with Koizumi as it is with Yuki.

Of course, there is an outside possibility that Haruhi would simply RAGE over how her SOS Brigade has been deceiving her for so long; that might trump her interest in what they actually are.

As for the relationship thing, Haruhi is, somewhat paradoxically, very adherent to tradition. If she believes it's the guy's job to do the asking out, she isn't going to go against it.

That's definitely what I like to think... it makes her approach to Kyon a lot more believable to me.

Jonbob0008

2009-09-02, 06:54

Well, if you remember Novel 7, Haruhi actually had a lot of anxiety and embarrassment over Valentine's Day. She went with the over the top fake treasure hunt just so she and the other girls could give chocolates to Kyon and Koizumi.

I think that when it comes to love, she can be very cowardly, just like how some people are perfectly fine around most animals, but freak out around frogs. It's about how the person associates those things in their heads. Haruhi rarely shows fear because she doesn't care about what others think of her. Kyon is the one exception. It's because he's the one person to whom she actually cares what he thinks that she's afraid to express her feelings to him. Not to mention she also thinks dating would likely get in the way of SOS Brigade activities.

Takamura Mamoru

2009-09-02, 09:04

So you're saying she's embarrassed and anxious about Valentine's day because she worked with the other girls on making a treasure hunt for valentines chocolate for the boys?

Yes, sure...

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-09-02, 09:06

I think you have it backwards. It seems Jonbob was saying the treasure hunt was the result, not the cause. :heh:

Triple_R

2009-09-02, 09:09

I think you have it backwards. It seems Jonbob was saying the treasure hunt was the result, not the cause. :heh:

The treasure hunt could be a case of...

Haruhi: Gah! I hate to not make a big deal over a special calender event, but at the same time, I have little to no interest in romance, so what the hell do I do for Valentine's Day?! Simply giving the guys valentine's or chocolates would bore me to tears... so let's see what I can come up with here!

Takamura Mamoru

2009-09-02, 09:18

I simply think the amount of effort the put in making such a nice stunt pretty much implies the opposite of being embarrassed about it.

I mean, when I read it, I was really surprised how open Haruhi was about saying they made them for Kyon and Koizumi. I expected her to be more shy about it than she actually was.

For example, I quote: "We made it specifically for you guys, it was fun and exhausting when we made it, but we're fine. "

CrowKenobi

2009-09-02, 12:12

In discussing Haruhi's love life, we also have to consider her position as Danchou and how that affects her relationship with Kyon. :D

Also, the John Smith thing: she's attracted to the ideal of JS, and Kyon just happens to (in her eye) share it. :heh:

worldruined

2009-09-02, 12:47

I simply think the amount of effort the put in making such a nice stunt pretty much implies the opposite of being embarrassed about it.

When the first bell rang, Haruhi stretched her neck from behind and whispered to my ear,

"Kyon, I'm warning you, don't go around talking about what happened yesterday. Especially not to Taniguchi. This has got be kept a secret at all costs, or else it'll be so embarra... ahem, anyway just don't go around announcing it. Gifts are best cherished."

Haruhi has always hidden her embarrassment (regarding Kyon) with over-the-top theatrics. Post-"dream" in Melancholy, ending of Disappearance, the entire Valentine's Day scene... they're all about Haruhi acting more angry or annoyed or dismissive or forceful precisely because she doesn't want anyone to notice how embarrassed she really is.

Haruhi sure is something, so she was bothered by how she could give chocolates to me all this time, but she just wouldn't admit it. She could've just gave them to me in the classroom, but instead she had to come up with treasure hunting as an excuse, just so we could dig a hole for her to bury the chocolates inside, that's how indirect she is.

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-09-02, 13:23

And that is why Haruhi is awesome.

Ithekro

2009-09-02, 13:32

White Day should be interesting.

CrowKenobi

2009-09-02, 14:00

White Day should be interesting.Exactly! How would Kyon top Valentine's Day?? :D

Should he? ;)

worldruined

2009-09-02, 14:02

Hosts? :heehee:

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-09-02, 14:06

Make Haruhi a nervous wreck until the end of the day? :p

Jonbob0008

2009-09-02, 14:10

I'm expecting White day to be covered in Novel 11, should that one ever see the light of day.

Full Metal Coast

2009-09-02, 21:46

oh my lord that would be so good for novel 11 it would be hilarious.

Roger Rambo

2009-09-02, 22:07

Of course, there is an outside possibility that Haruhi would simply RAGE over how her SOS Brigade has been deceiving her for so long; that might trump her interest in what they actually are.

Well it's not like the 3 of them ever said they "weren't" time travelers/aliens/espers.

And Kyon quite honestly does come clean to her about this fact. It's just that Haruhi consciously chose to ignore it.

Sho-tan

2009-09-02, 22:19

Personally, I'm expecting Haruhi to do something huge and outlandish for April Fools.

OkamiNoKaze

2009-09-03, 02:07

I'm remembering the White Day episode of Haruhi-Chan, poor Mikuru

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-09-03, 05:26

... Haruhi-chan covered White Day?

Nukerjsr

2009-09-03, 06:25

... Haruhi-chan covered White Day?

I remember the Valentine's Day one where Haruhi, Yuki, Mikuru and Tsuruya made chocolates.

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-09-03, 06:30

I'm aware of that one, as well as the host thing in the following episode. I just don't remember a White Day one. :heh:

orangejuicetang

2009-09-03, 23:31

... now you guys have really got me wanting to read a white day haruhi scenario.:heh:

quigonkenny

2009-09-04, 01:23

... I find it rather odd, then, for why Haruhi hasn't confessed much of anything towards Kyon. I'm not even sure if she's called him "friend", has she?

I misremembered the scene, clearly, but I misremembered it because, frankly, I find the handling of Haruhi and Kyon's relationship so hard to swallow at times. If Haruhi felt that it was the guy's job to make romantic confessions, then at least that would provide a believable reason for why she hasn't confessed anything to Kyon yet. I also personally prefer the idea of Kyon making the first move... because the general thrust of the novels and the anime is that Kyon's the one that has to change the status quo and get things happening.

I just have such a hard time imagining how a very strong-willed, always-makes-her-wishes-known girl like Haruhi could refrain for so long from making her romantic feelings clearly known to Kyon if...

1) She, in fact, has them.

2) She feels that it's Ok for her to make the first move.

Haruhi being a coward when it comes to romance just doesn't sit well with me; it's just so out-of-character for her given what she's like in every other area of life.

When the first bell rang, Haruhi stretched her neck from behind and whispered to my ear,

"Kyon, I'm warning you, don't go around talking about what happened yesterday. Especially not to Taniguchi. This has got be kept a secret at all costs, or else it'll be so embarra... ahem, anyway just don't go around announcing it. Gifts are best cherished."

Haruhi has always hidden her embarrassment (regarding Kyon) with over-the-top theatrics. Post-"dream" in Melancholy, ending of Disappearance, the entire Valentine's Day scene... they're all about Haruhi acting more angry or annoyed or dismissive or forceful precisely because she doesn't want anyone to notice how embarrassed she really is.

Haruhi sure is something, so she was bothered by how she could give chocolates to me all this time, but she just wouldn't admit it. She could've just gave them to me in the classroom, but instead she had to come up with treasure hunting as an excuse, just so we could dig a hole for her to bury the chocolates inside, that's how indirect she is.
It's discussion like this that is why I'm amazed when people get so upset and combative when it is suggested that Haruhi is a tsundere. Of course she's tsundere. Both of the examples given above are textbook examples of tsundere behavior. Yes, she may be more complex than just a simple tsundere, but only when it has nothing to do with her relationship with Kyon. That part of her easily approaches 100% tsundere, as the above examples are hardly uncommon...

OkamiNoKaze

2009-09-04, 02:29

Oh it wasn't white day, I remember now, it was a Valentines episode, they had to dress like that to earn their chocolates from the girls.

Nukerjsr

2009-09-04, 06:02

Oh it wasn't white day, I remember now, it was a Valentines episode, they had to dress like that to earn their chocolates from the girls.

Oh yeah, when they give the chocolate and that makes Mikuru cry?

Triple_R

2009-09-04, 06:05

It's discussion like this that is why I'm amazed when people get so upset and combative when it is suggested that Haruhi is a tsundere. Of course she's tsundere. Both of the examples given above are textbook examples of tsundere behavior. Yes, she may be more complex than just a simple tsundere, but only when it has nothing to do with her relationship with Kyon. That part of her easily approaches 100% tsundere, as the above examples are hardly uncommon...

Where you see tsundere, I see genki girl. A genki girl probably wouldn't want to simply hand chocolates over to guys that she's friendly with either; she'd want to set up an elaborate game instead.

Haruhi's dialogue during the Valentine's Day chocolate giving doesn't strike me as tsundere at all. Tsunderes' typically verbalize their feelings much less than Haruhi did there. Haruhi's openness there, in fact, is much more like a genki girl, imo.

The fact that we see two entirely different tropes in the same story indicates that Haruhi is far more complex than either trope alone. It does a disservice to her character to simply call her a tsundere, or a genki girl, imo.

Anyway, part of the reason why I am, yes, pretty combative against the idea of Haruhi being labeled a tsundere is that I feel that the tsundere label itself is grossly overused through out anime as whole, and/or genuinely tsundere characters have become very overly common. To be brutally frank, tsunderes (or characters labeled that way) have become a dime a dozen. Haruhi's not a dime a dozen character.

typhonsentra

2009-09-04, 12:27

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-09-04, 12:31

How aware do you think she is of her feelings towards him? Is it that she likes him or simply that she's annoyed seeing him flirting at this point? If she does knowingly like him, when do you think the switch came?

Some time during Melancholy. Or perhaps a little bit after it. At any rate, she definitely realized she liked him as more than just a friend before Boredom.

Triple_R

2009-09-04, 12:35

How aware do you think she is of her feelings towards him? Is it that she likes him or simply that she's annoyed seeing him flirting at this point? If she does knowingly like him, when do you think the switch came?

Kyon is Haruhi's best friend... and has been almost from the beginning. Now, that's somewhat of a default condition (i.e. Haruhi doesn't have many friends, so it's not like Kyon got loads of competition), but it's still very important to Haruhi.

To what degree Haruhi has romantic feelings for Kyon... I don't know. She probably has some.

But the key for me, really, is that Kyon is her best friend. Romance or not, that's pretty important in and of itself. There's no girls that Haruhi is close to - Yuki and her barely talk, and Mikuru is, frankly, frequently just a plaything to Haruhi.

Kyon is the only person that Haruhi really, truly talks with.

That's why, like yourself, I liked Haruhi's very well-done reaction to Kyon trying to punch her in the latest Haruhi episode. Even for Haruhi, it has to really sting for your best friend (and very close to your only friend) to get really angry with you like that.

Takamura Mamoru

2009-09-04, 13:23

I liked Haruhi's very well-done reaction to Kyon trying to punch her in the latest Haruhi episode

Indeed. Both from expression and voice acting, it was quite well done.
She really looked desperate in a "What? Why are you against me? WHY?" way.

GMT

2009-09-04, 15:31

Indeed. Both from expression and voice acting, it was quite well done.
She really looked desperate in a "What? Why are you against me? WHY?" way.
Her pensive and dejected look when Kyon barges into the clubroom was well-done as well. Though one has to wonder if the happy face she puts on after Kyon tells her that he wants to make the movie a success is genuine, since their fight affects her through the Cultural Festival.

I think it puts Live A Live into a whole new light. It's almost like a protracted apology to Kyon for the events in Sighs. Her way of showing him that "look, I can do something good, and be concerned for other people!" The suspiciously apropos lyrics didn't hurt.

Jonbob0008

2009-09-07, 21:03

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-09-08, 07:55

SgtHydra

2009-09-08, 09:46

Sometimes a coincidence really is just a coincidence.

Or at least, that's my thought on the matter.

GMT

2009-09-08, 09:48

So you're saying she willed a poor musician(two in the anime) into being hurt, simply so she could help them out? I'd rather not think of Haruhi being like that, especially since, DoS aside, Live A Live marks the start of her change in personality. :heh:
One could say that she just saw the opportunity presented to her by coincidental Act of Plot and took it; if one would rather not think that Haruhi might've unconsciously bent reality to give her the opportunity. After all, not every suspicious coincidence in the Haruhi-verse comes from Haruhi. Or maybe Yuki did it to create the opportunity for Haruhi (a'la Mysterique Sign) (and so she could get the chance to rock everybody's face off with her mad axe shredding skillz. :heh:)

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-09-08, 10:04

That's what I was getting at. I really don't see Haruhi being the type to injure someone, directly or not, simply to look good by helping said person afterward.

Also, Mysterique Sign had very little to do with Haruhi. She got bored of the situation before anything major happened. :heh:

sacundim

2009-09-08, 22:01

Her pensive and dejected look when Kyon barges into the clubroom was well-done as well. Though one has to wonder if the happy face she puts on after Kyon tells her that he wants to make the movie a success is genuine, since their fight affects her through the Cultural Festival.

I don't think one thing contradicts the other. She can be genuinely happy that she hasn't driven Kyon away, yet bothered by the fact that she almost did.

I think it puts Live A Live into a whole new light. It's almost like a protracted apology to Kyon for the events in Sighs. Her way of showing him that "look, I can do something good, and be concerned for other people!" The suspiciously apropos lyrics didn't hurt.

One could say that she just saw the opportunity presented to her by coincidental Act of Plot and took it; if one would rather not think that Haruhi might've unconsciously bent reality to give her the opportunity. After all, not every suspicious coincidence in the Haruhi-verse comes from Haruhi.

I think it's wrong it to see it as an "opportunity" that Haruhi "took," as if it was a means to the goal of appeasing Kyon. For it to be genuine in the way Kyon cares about, her goal has to be to help the ENOZ girls. If helping them is a means for her goals with regards to Kyon, then she's just using the ENOZ girls to manipulate Kyon. The difference would be that she's using them in a relatively benevolent manner because she thinks Kyon would disapprove otherwise.

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-09-08, 22:08

... I don't think Haruhi even knew Kyon was going to be in the audience. Or if she knew he was there while she was performing. :heh:

GDB

2009-09-08, 22:14

One could say her Will didn't create the situation for her to perform, but she may have caused it to rain, hoping to bring Kyon into the audience to see her helping. She just didn't know he was already there.

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-09-08, 22:26

The rain thing has been speculated for years, but I don't recall it ever being Kyon-specific. :heh:

CrowKenobi

2009-09-08, 23:46

If there's going to be any more talk of Haruhi in "Live Alive", perhaps a quick perusal of the episode thread itself would be in order. :D

...not that I had anything to say on the matter... :p

Tornadium

2009-09-12, 11:05

I don't think one thing contradicts the other. She can be genuinely happy that she hasn't driven Kyon away, yet bothered by the fact that she almost did.

I think the implied meaning of the "Putting Hair in Ponytail" shot was that she was extremely distressed and trying anything to get Kyon to talk to her. When he comes in and they talk you could tell she was relieved and overjoyed. Her expression said to me

*turns*

"Really you mean it?..."

"You do!"

*bright smile*

I think it's wrong it to see it as an "opportunity" that Haruhi "took," as if it was a means to the goal of appeasing Kyon. For it to be genuine in the way Kyon cares about, her goal has to be to help the ENOZ girls. If helping them is a means for her goals with regards to Kyon, then she's just using the ENOZ girls to manipulate Kyon. The difference would be that she's using them in a relatively benevolent manner because she thinks Kyon would disapprove otherwise.

It was probably a mixture of wanting to help them and trying to repair the damage she has done already. This way she helps people out and tries to show everyone that she isn't all bad. Hell Kyon was extremely impressed by what Haruhi did.

The ending of Live Alive was perfect in showing Haruhi's reaction towards being thanked. She didn't know how to react.

OkamiNoKaze

2009-09-13, 00:52

I have to wonder now, if that pic of Haruhi sitting in the club room was a reference to sigh 4 or melencholy 6?

Tornadium

2009-09-13, 05:30

I have to wonder now, if that pic of Haruhi sitting in the club room was a reference to sigh 4 or melencholy 6?

Could be both.

DJ Trouble

2009-09-14, 15:17

Because I'm pretty sure this is where it should be . . .

By Book 9 there is NO WAY Haruhi is even remotely bisexual since she pretty much is devoted solely to Kyon at that point

That's not evidence saying she isn't bisexual. If you look at it like that, then she can never be bi. She'll either be hetero or homo because she'd either be dating a male or a female.

Tornadium

2009-09-14, 15:27

Because I'm pretty sure this is where it should be . . .

That's not evidence saying she isn't bisexual. If you look at it like that, then she can never be bi. She'll either be hetero or homo because she'd either be dating a male or a female.

That wasn't the evidence.

Just the general point i was trying to make.

Jonbob0008

2009-10-13, 01:22

My personal belief is that Haruhi is a bisexual, but finds that men (or at least Kyon) are more satisfying from an emotional standpoint.

A lot of people out there find both sexes attractive physically, but prefer to have a relationship with someone of one sex or the other. They would be willing to have a one night stand with either, but they would only stay commited to someone to whom fits with their emotional preferences.

While romantic relationships usually do involve some level of sexual attraction, sexual attraction doesn't need any emotional attatchments. Haruhi might be physically attracted to Mikuru, there's no way that she'd ever want to date her. She not that kind of bisexual, as there are many shades of bisexuality.

Sexual preference isn't black, white and grey. It comes in all different shades inbetween, and it could be argued that very few people are completely white, black or grey.

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-10-13, 01:56

... Technically speaking, any mixture of black and white is grey, so I think you might need to work on that last part a bit. :heh:

Jonbob0008

2009-10-13, 02:32

... Technically speaking, any mixture of black and white is grey, so I think you might need to work on that last part a bit. :heh:

You're right... -_-

Hopefully, my point wasn't lost, though. I guess the better way to put it is black, white, or an equal mixture of the two. There...fixed... ;)

Khu

2009-10-13, 02:43

Doesn't have to be equal. :P

Could be a darker or lighter grey.

Also emotional > physical. USUALLY. (unless they're shallow)

Jonbob0008

2009-10-13, 02:55

I was just saying that when I made the statement that sexuality ISN'T black, white or "grey." The "grey" I was refering to was an equal measure of white and black. My whole point was that there could be different mixture of black and white, just like how people can have sexual preferences that tend to lean one way or the other without being completely "Straight," "Gay," or "Bi."

Kaisos Erranon

2009-10-13, 03:10

Also emotional > physical. USUALLY. (unless they're shallow)

Most people are shallow, in my experience, even if they say they're not.

Haruhi, however, is not. Even if Kyon is good-looking.

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-10-13, 03:15

Which he isn't. He's average. Average people aren't attractive.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-10-13, 03:19

Which he isn't. He's average. Average people aren't attractive.

Kyon only thinks he's average.

Don't forget, this is the guy who has girls falling all over him; the most emotionless character in the series to date told him he had "pretty____eyes".

Yeah, he's pretty good-looking. Not as good-looking as Koizumi, but...

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-10-13, 04:22

this is the guy who has girls falling all over him

Oh really?

Haruhi: Shares quite a few common interests with him. He vaguely reminds her of the guy she met three/four years ago.
Nagato: Touched by his actions.
Mikuru: While he's pretty bad at it, he does try to stop Haruhi from doing anything particularly bad to her.
His sister: ... I'm not going to get into this one...
Tsuruya: Is there any real proof that she's interested in him?
Asakura: Wanted to kill him, no real romantic aspects.
Kimidori: Nothing.
Mori: Not interested.
Miyoko: Friends with his sister.
Sasaki: Not really sure on this one.
Suou: "Pretty eyes."
Tachibana: No interest.
Slider-tan: Aside from liking the idea of calling Kyon "sempai" and wishing she had a sister like his, there's no evidence at the current time that she has any personal interest in him.

Yep... really has girls falling all over him. :p

Anyway... of the above, only one that has actually displayed interest in him due to his appearance.

typhonsentra

2009-10-13, 05:14

Tsuruya flirts with him quite a bit in Volume 7 but he never takes it seriously, and I don't think we're supposed to either.

Triple_R

2009-10-13, 06:54

Oh really?

Haruhi: Shares quite a few common interests with him. He vaguely reminds her of the guy she met three/four years ago.
Nagato: Touched by his actions.
Mikuru: While he's pretty bad at it, he does try to stop Haruhi from doing anything particularly bad to her.
His sister: ... I'm not going to get into this one...
Tsuruya: Is there any real proof that she's interested in him?
Asakura: Wanted to kill him, no real romantic aspects.
Kimidori: Nothing.
Mori: Not interested.
Miyoko: Friends with his sister.
Sasaki: Not really sure on this one.
Suou: "Pretty eyes."
Tachibana: No interest.
Slider-tan: Aside from liking the idea of calling Kyon "sempai" and wishing she had a sister like his, there's no evidence at the current time that she has any personal interest in him.

Yep... really has girls falling all over him. :p

Anyway... of the above, only one that has actually displayed interest in him due to his appearance.

Good points.

Also, "average looking" is attractive enough for your, well, "average" person. ;) Once there's romantic attraction there, a moderate degree of physical attraction is usually enough to satisfy people. It's also been my experience that most people aren't very picky.

As for Haruhi's sexuality... my own view is that she's straight, but is so obsessed over aliens, espers, and time travelers that she'd literally go lesbian for one or more of the above. I think that her treatment of Mikuru can be summed up over simple expressions of delight that she has such a great moe mascot for her SOS Brigade; kind of like a young kid gushing over his or her new literal toy.

Haruhi really doesn't strike me as the one-night stand sort of person. Her approach to others suggests to me that she's either really into you (to the point she wants you to be part of her regular entourage), or she has no investment/particular interest in you at all (romantic, sexual, or otherwise).

Kaisos Erranon

2009-10-13, 17:18

Anyway... of the above, only one that has actually displayed interest in him due to his appearance.

You do have a point. However... at least the girls in the SOS Brigade all have a thing for him, and that's more than enough to say that he has girls falling all over him, though, you're correct, it's not due to attractiveness.

(He is in quite good shape, though. I kind of wonder why he is, given that's he's never shown to be doing any kind of exercise.)

I should point out, though, that Kyon could easily get Miyoko if he worked hard enough at it.

Let's see... Tachibana has hit on Kyon once, and a lot of the things Sasaki says makes a bit more sense if you accept that she's into Kyon but doesn't want to be.

That's about it though.

AmyElizzabeth

2009-10-13, 17:25

When has Tachibana Kyouko hit on Kyon?
I remember Kuyoh telling him he has nice_______eyes.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-10-13, 17:34

When has Tachibana Kyouko hit on Kyon?
I remember Kuyoh telling him he has nice_______eyes.

Volume seven, I seem to recall.

Khu

2009-10-13, 18:46

*is imagining YOU HAVE SPARKLY EYES, KYON.*

*Now is seeing buildings burnt down in Twilight related rage*

Ooch.

OkamiNoKaze

2009-10-13, 19:11

Just so long as it's not sparkly skin

Ithekro

2009-10-13, 19:16

That's Itsuki.

AmyElizzabeth

2009-10-13, 19:17

Vampires should sparkle.
Ooh, what if Tsuruya's a vampire! She like, totally sparkles nyoro! not really//

Triple_R

2009-10-13, 20:21

(He is in quite good shape, though. I kind of wonder why he is, given that's he's never shown to be doing any kind of exercise.)

Simply having to keep up with Haruhi probably helps. Haruhi's typically like a tornado of activity, and when you consider that she is very athletic and doesn't tire easily...

Part of the reason why I'd love to be friends with Haruhi is because it would be good for my diet. :heh:

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-10-13, 20:35

His build is a result of being the SOS Brigade's pack mule. :p

Ithekro

2009-10-13, 20:45

That and he's proven to be able to dogde things that should kill just about anyone else. Ryoko's blade, fireworks to the face, and Haruhi's ego.

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-10-13, 21:00

He still needs a bit of work with that last one.

CrowKenobi

2009-10-13, 21:15

Yeah, 'cause he has problems when Haruhi goes all dere on him... :p :heh:

Jonbob0008

2009-10-13, 21:43

Haruhi really doesn't strike me as the one-night stand sort of person. Her approach to others suggests to me that she's either really into you (to the point she wants you to be part of her regular entourage), or she has no investment/particular interest in you at all (romantic, sexual, or otherwise).

I agree, and I wasn't really trying to say that Haruhi was the type to do that.

My point was that someone (not Haruhi in this example) who does find both sexes sexually attractive but prefer one gender over the other might be willing to have a sexual encounter with either, but would only consider one gender as viable for relationship material.

I apologize for not making myself clear.

Triple_R

2009-10-13, 21:53

I agree, and I wasn't really trying to say that Haruhi was the type to do that.

My point was that someone (not Haruhi in this example) who does find both sexes sexually attractive but prefer one gender over the other might be willing to have a sexual encounter with either, but would only consider one gender as viable for relationship material.

I apologize for not making myself clear.

I know - don't worry; I didn't take your post the wrong way. I figured that somebody else might, though, which is why I made my "Haruhi is not an one-night stand kind of girl" post. ;)

Full Metal Coast

2009-10-13, 22:02

I agree, and I wasn't really trying to say that Haruhi was the type to do that.

My point was that someone (not Haruhi in this example) who does find both sexes sexually attractive but prefer one gender over the other might be willing to have a sexual encounter with either, but would only consider one gender as viable for relationship material.

I apologize for not making myself clear.

i get what what you saying Jonbob and i would have to agree with you as well.
i was also just thinking that if Kyon ever got Haruhi in the sack she would be absolutly wild.

Jonbob0008

2009-10-13, 22:19

i get what what you saying Jonbob and i would have to agree with you as well.
i was also just thinking that if Kyon ever got Haruhi in the sack she would be absolutly wild.

I always imagined their first time together being extremely awkward. They're both virgins after all. It could be funny to see to two of them fumbling about trying to do it right (And yelling at each other in the process). :heh:

I do agree that eventually (when the two of them got the hang of it) they would have some pretty damn wild nights. She is rather athletic, after all...

Ricky Controversy

2009-10-13, 22:24

I always imagined their first time together being extremely awkward. They're both virgins after all. It could be funny to see to two of them fumbling about trying to do it right (And yelling at each other in the process). :heh:

I do agree that eventually (when the two of them got the hang of it) they would have some pretty damn wild nights. She is rather athletic, after all...

Most of the better fanfiction that goes down the Lemon Brick Road takes this approach. Her outward roughness holds a gentler, vulnerable side. She'd probably still be plenty Tsundere in her words during, and I can see her poking fun at Kyon, but ultimately she'd be just as unsure. She's so unused to direct affection and emotional honesty that that situation would have her off guard.

Jonbob0008

2009-10-13, 22:33

Most of the better fanfiction that goes down the Lemon Brick Road takes this approach. Her outward roughness holds a gentler, vulnerable side. She'd probably still be plenty Tsundere in her words during, and I can see her poking fun at Kyon, but ultimately she'd be just as unsure. She's so unused to direct affection and emotional honesty that that situation would have her off guard.

Yeah, Haruhi's either depicted as either that or a complete slut in most...adult oriented works involving her character (hentai and lemons). I will not comment on how I know this... >_>

Full Metal Coast

2009-10-13, 22:50

Yeah, Haruhi's either depicted as either that or a complete slut in most...adult oriented works involving her character (hentai and lemons). I will not comment on how I know this... >_>

i definitely agree with you both there.

ive always thought that between the two it would go along the line of Haruhi trying to take control of what to do with Kyon complainging that shes doing it wrong but both of them being really nervous about it. i dont think Haruhi would be a slut. real keen but not a slut

Ricky Controversy

2009-10-13, 22:53

i definitely agree with you both there.

ive always thought that between the two it would go along the line of Haruhi trying to take control of what to do with Kyon complainging that shes doing it wrong but both of them being really nervous about it. i dont think Haruhi would be a slut. real keen but not a slut

Certainly not. Haruhi may be aggressive and socially uninhibited, but a bundle of primitive instincts is the last thing she is. She has high standards and hopes, and the person she puts this on more than anyone else is Kyon. Itsuki makes comments here and there in the novels about how Haruhi makes various concessions to give Kyon a chance to prove to her that he really is the man she believes him to be.

Full Metal Coast

2009-10-13, 23:00

Certainly not. Haruhi may be aggressive and socially uninhibited, but a bundle of primitive instincts is the last thing she is. She has high standards and hopes, and the person she puts this on more than anyone else is Kyon. Itsuki makes comments here and there in the novels about how Haruhi makes various concessions to give Kyon a chance to prove to her that he really is the man she believes him to be.

exactly. its just that Kyon is a bit slow to pick up on this.

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-10-13, 23:09

exactly. its just that Kyon is a bit slow to pick up on this.

Like pretty much every guy in a situation where he has multiple girls that want him in bed. :heh:

Jonbob0008

2009-10-13, 23:17

I remember one doujin where Haruhi was portrayed as a masochist (It was the same one where Kyon beats the crap out of her). I found it...very uncharacteristic of her...

Ricky Controversy

2009-10-13, 23:21

Like pretty much every guy in a situation where he has multiple girls that want him in bed. :heh:

Always seemed more like denial to me. Kyon acts incredulous at the notion that Haruhi is anything other than entropy on two (sexy) legs, but this, along with all of his snarking and seemingly resigned behavior is his way of framing the extraordinary and absurd world around him in some more readily acceptable cynicism.

Haruhi, conversely, goes to great lengths to mask her affections for Kyon behind substantially more grandiose aims--Baseball glory and treasure hunting rush to mind--because her own lifestyle is based on a paradigm that she's finding with some surprise she doesn't really believe. She in fact is interested in a normal human, more so than anything else, and I think she appreciates the fact that, whether or not he is complaining, angry, silent or what have you, he is still there with her. There when no one else is. There when she feels even the supernatural has let her down.

Triple_R

2009-10-13, 23:21

... You know, I don't think that I've ever seen people deliberate more carefully over what a fictional character would be like in bed. It's almost like reading people speculating over how Barack Obama will handle his next geopolitical diplomatic venture. :heh:

"Well, I believe that Barack, being new to the Presidency position, will be rather awkward at first, but after awhile, his natural oratory talents will lead him to be an exceptional diplomat."

"Some say that he's too soft, you know, and too easy. But I don't think so. I think he takes it all very seriously."

"True. He is definitely not too soft. He will be fairly critical of Iran, but a bit unsure of himself as well."

... Honestly, folks, I don't think we need to concern ourselves this much about what Haurhi is like in bed. :heh: I'm sure she'll be fine.

Ricky Controversy

2009-10-13, 23:25

... Honestly, folks, I don't think we need to concern ourselves this much about what Haurhi is like in bed. :heh: I'm sure she'll be fine.

As a writer, I believe that with proper attention to detail, any aspect of a character's conduct and lifestyle can say something meaningful about them. Whatever the motivation for the original speculation, it's part of the character. Some people just like to have a complete understanding of the characters they like, down to the last detail. When I write novels, for instance, I don't consider a character complete until I can picture every moment they spend at the dinner table at night.

It's like that. But with sex instead of dinner.

Jonbob0008

2009-10-13, 23:25

It's still fun to discuss, no matter how silly it is...

edit: And I totally get what you're saying Ricky. Half the fun in writing and characterization is developing the little details that make a character unique.

Triple_R

2009-10-13, 23:28

As a writer, I believe that with proper attention to detail, any aspect of a character's conduct and lifestyle can say something meaningful about them. Whatever the motivation for the original speculation, it's part of the character. Some people just like to have a complete understanding of the characters they like, down to the last detail. When I write novels, for instance, I don't consider a character complete until I can picture every moment they spend at the dinner table at night.

It's like that. But with sex instead of dinner.

I guess for me, a lot of it comes back to a line I once heard:

Sex is like pizza. Even when it's bad, it's not that bad.

I tend to agree with that. I also think that sex often has a spontaneous aspect to it, and isn't, well, micromanaged to the smallest detail. Frankly, I think that Haruhi's first time may be a great experience for her and her partner... as I can easily imagine it being creative and spontaneous, and not managed like a diplomatic meeting.

Ricky Controversy

2009-10-13, 23:31

I guess for me, a lot of it comes back to a line I once heard:

Sex is like pizza. Even when it's bad, it's not that bad.

I tend to agree with that. I also think that sex often has a spontaneous aspect to it, and isn't, well, micromanaged to the smallest detail. Frankly, I think that Haruhi's first time may be a great experience for her and her partner... as I can easily imagine it being creative and spontaneous, and not managed like a diplomatic meeting.

Oh, certainly, I agree with your prediction. I wasn't so much saying that I think the act itself would be some masterwork of precision planning, rather that the discussion about it is born from a curiosity about the full depths of the character: as much as Tanigawa conveys in the novels, there are also volumes of material more that are not explored, and the bizarre happenings are not the only interesting ones, of course.

I apologize if my intention was unclear.

Triple_R

2009-10-13, 23:33

Oh, certainly, I agree with your prediction. I wasn't so much saying that I think the act itself would be some masterwork of precision planning, rather that the discussion about it is born from a curiosity about the full depths of the character: as much as Tanigawa conveys in the novels, there's also volumes of material more that is not explored, and the bizarre happenings are not the only interesting ones, of course.

I apologize if my intention was unclear.

Good points. I see where you're coming from here. :)

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-10-13, 23:35

... Are we going to need a "The Sex Life of Haruhi Suzumiya" thread? :heh:

Still... "It's like that. But with sex instead of dinner." is one of the funniest things that's come up in this thread. :p

Triple_R

2009-10-13, 23:37

... Are we going to need a "The Sex Life of Haruhi Suzumiya" thread? :heh:

They should make it a weekly special on the Playboy Channel. Given Haruhi's taste in fetish wear, it might be appropriate. :D

Ricky Controversy

2009-10-13, 23:39

Suzumiya Haruhi no Seiseikatsu: This is one 'Endless Eight' you have to see.

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-10-13, 23:44

... Well that didn't take long. :heh:

Ricky Controversy

2009-10-13, 23:49

... Well that didn't take long. :heh:

I'm like some kind of Comedy Dolphin Fun-Time Traveling Folk-Gospel Choir and Jamboree Band.

On a less off-topic note, but a more spoiler-tastic one...

That Haruhi discovering her godlike powers is bad is fed to us in the canon from day one, but with Sasaki in the picture, here's a different question. Supposing that Haruhi's powers end up in Sasaki's hands somehow, and then Haruhi finds out the truth about herself and the three paranormal SOS-dan members, how do you think she'd react? If she actually has to face these revelations like a normal person rather than unmaking or reshaping the world with her wild emotions...what becomes of her relationships with these people?

Triple_R

2009-10-13, 23:51

I'm like some kind of Comedy Dolphin Fun-Time Traveling Folk-Gospel Choir and Jamboree Band.

On a less off-topic note, but a more spoiler-tastic one...

That Haruhi discovering her godlike powers is bad is fed to us in the canon from day one, but with Sasaki in the picture, here's a different question. Supposing that Haruhi's powers end up in Sasaki's hands somehow, and then Haruhi finds out the truth about herself and the three paranormal SOS-dan members, how do you think she'd react? If she actually has to face these revelations like a normal person rather than unmaking or reshaping the world with her wild emotions...what becomes of her relationships with these people?

That's a really good question. And... I'm going to need to think about it for awhile. Well, for one, I think that Haruhi will be skeptical at first - especially since she won't be able to prove her powers to herself by 'testing' them out.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-10-13, 23:51

That Haruhi discovering her godlike powers is bad is fed to us in the canon from day one, but with Sasaki in the picture, here's a different question. Supposing that Haruhi's powers end up in Sasaki's hands somehow, and then Haruhi finds out the truth about herself and the three paranormal SOS-dan members, how do you think she'd react? If she actually has to face these revelations like a normal person rather than unmaking or reshaping the world with her wild emotions...what becomes of her relationships with these people?

Originally, they would... probably have just left her.

But now that they're a nakama, nothing would probably happen to their relationships, really.

Ricky Controversy

2009-10-13, 23:53

Originally, they would... probably have just left her.

But now that they're a nakama, nothing would probably happen to their relationships, really.

Oh no, I don't doubt that the SOS-dan themselves would stay by her side. I mean how Haruhi herself would react to the whole 'tangled web of lies and secrecy' thing.

Triple_R

2009-10-13, 23:58

Oh no, I don't doubt that the SOS-dan themselves would stay by her side. I mean how Haruhi herself would react to the whole 'tangled web of lies and secrecy' thing.

After further thought... she'd favor Kyon even moreso than usual over the rest of the SOS Brigade... because she'd remember how he told her about Nagato, Mikuru, and Koizumi before, and how she blew him off at the time. So, I think it could become a case where Kyon is the only person she would trust at all. I think she'd feel a bit betrayed by the rest of the SOS Brigade.

It would be a big love/hate thing, though... I mean, considering that they are an alien, an esper, and a time traveler from the future.

Haruhi would be torn nastily between sheer excitement over such facts being revealed to her... and resentment over being deliberately kept in the dark for so long.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-10-14, 00:00

Haruhi would be torn nastily between sheer excitement over such facts being revealed to her... and resentment over being deliberately kept in the dark for so long.

Probably this, yeah.

But in the end... Kyon and Haruhi can only really trust each other anyway, right? Wasn't that kind of the point of Sigh(s)?

I expect a callback to that eventually...

Oh, also.

They're both virgins after all.

I should point this out:

We don't actually know this for certain.

We can be relatively sure Haruhi is, given how she treated boys in middle school but... you know, I'm not exactly sure about Kyon. Sure, he certainly seems extremely innocent given his reactions to seeing Mikuru nearly naked, but... we really don't know. Kyon never talks about his past in great detail.

CrowKenobi

2009-10-14, 00:03

Ricky Controversy

2009-10-14, 00:03

After further thought... she'd favor Kyon even moreso than usual over the rest of the SOS Brigade... because she'd remember how he told her about Nagato, Mikuru, and Koizumi before, and how she blew him off at the time. So, I think it could become a case where Kyon is the only person she would trust at all. I think she'd feel a bit betrayed by the rest of the SOS Brigade.

It would be a big love/hate thing, though... I mean, considering that they are an alien, an esper, and a time traveler from the future.

Haruhi would be torn nastily between sheer excitement over such facts being revealed to her... and resentment over being deliberately kept in the dark for so long.

That sounds right to me, though I wonder what forms it would take, because I think Haruhi's the type whose relationships with people work on individual spectra, rather than one unified emotion-response pairing system. So perhaps her taking advantage of Mikuru would become more aggressive, or perhaps more frightening, vanish all together as a sign of the distance? Perhaps she'd contradict Koizumi and whenever he agreed with her, she'd abruptly change her mind? With Yuki...I can actually picture a fairly powerful scene where she loses it at Yuki, perhaps even tearfully, because she held Yuki in special esteem and worried over her in the past, and all this time she only responded with silence.