The Character Discussion Thread of SOS団 Member: Kyon

[CrowKenobi]

The purpose of this thread is to provide a place to discuss all things Kyon related.

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/3903/askyonavy01.gif

To keep the discussion enjoyable for all Suzumiya Haruhi fans, please follow the guidelines below and stay on-topic!

Note: Please don't use this for the specifics (i.e. episode, chapter, game, etc. discussion) there are other threads (http://forums.animesuki.com/forumdisplay.php?f=52) for that stuff.

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[Jintor]

I wish more anime had an overly sarcastic unreliable narrator.

[hai_san]

I dont know which i like more the "character of Kyon" or the seiryuu Tomokazu Sugita.

[Heatth]

Well, I think he is awesome in the novel too. Though Sugita really does a exellent job (I am kinda going to watch Kannon onlt because of him).

But, about the 'unreliable narrator' part. Sure, he certanly don't say all he can about his personal feelings, as Disappearance can show us very well. But some seens to act as he is aways lieing, even whe describing something. Why people get this idea? There is some point in the books he does something like that? I so, where?

[Jintor]

It's kind of like lying to himself, primarily re: Haruhi.

[Solais]

Kyon is a cynical bastard who seems to hate everybody and complains about everything. But he actually thinks the opposite, and snarks for the lulz. He's the best.

[Heatth]

It's kind of like lying to himself, primarily re: Haruhi.

I know about that. People seens to use it for other situations too. Wich don't make sense to me.

[Stardust Romance]

Kyon is a cynical bastard who seems to hate everybody and complains about everything. But he actually thinks the opposite, and snarks for the lulz. He's the best.

And that's why I love him ;)

Except for when he's being lazy.

[Triple_R]

Well, I think he is awesome in the novel too. Though Sugita really does a exellent job (I am kinda going to watch Kannon onlt because of him).

But, about the 'unreliable narrator' part. Sure, he certanly don't say all he can about his personal feelings, as Disappearance can show us very well. But some seens to act as he is aways lieing, even whe describing something. Why people get this idea? There is some point in the books he does something like that? I so, where?

Novel 4 does a pretty good of explaining why Kyon is an unreliable narrator. Kyon is downright bi-polar near the end of the final chapter of that novel.

[Heatth]

No, I mean people who seens to think he blatantly lies about things.

This exemple is about Haruhi and his enjoyment about weird things.

He seens to lie about what he thinks of people, but some seens to think he lies about what happens too.

[Triple_R]

No, I mean people who seens to think he blatantly lies about things.

This exemple is about Haruhi and his enjoyment about weird things.

He seens to lie about what he thinks of people, but some seens to think he lies about what happens too.

Oh, well... I think that Kyon is a fairly reliable narrator when it comes to describing, say, the physical setting around him. Or what other people are doing.

It's mainly when it comes to what he thinks of people, that he isn't reliable.

[Simplicity]

Would you say that Kyon's excessive use of similes (in the novels anyway) is a personality quirk or just a part of the author's writing style? I think of it as a personality quirk but in a review for the first novel blames the author for all the similes. I haven't read any other works by Tanigawa though so I can't say for sure.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Kyon never uses that kind of language in his dialogue, and his thoughts with similes are almost exclusively related to Mikuru. It's mainly the style of narrative.

*e* Never thought I'd be posting in this thread. :heh:

[vivify93]

Kyon is hot.

Unfortunately, Kyon is a giant homophobe. Therefore, Kyon gets a 75.3 rating on the Anime Boy Scale of Hotness to Another Boy.

...Yeah.

Speaking of that, is it just me, or does every girl and their grandmother want to jump Kyon's bones? It was pointed out by someone else that...

Even Kuyo said his eyes were pretty in the novels.

[wittyusername]

Kyon is hot.

...You're not one to mince words, are you?

Unfortunately, Kyon is a giant homophobe.

Since when is this a problem in ero doujin?

Speaking of that, is it just me, or does every girl and their grandmother want to jump Kyon's bones? It was pointed out by someone else that...

Even Kuyo said his eyes were pretty in the novels.

Despite what he says about himself, Kyon is pretty cute. He's not necessarily as pretty as Itsuki, but he makes up for that with snark. Tons and tons of snark. And that's never a bad thing.

Well, it's either that, or Nagaru Tanigawa is desperate for ideas. Instead of going along with the story so far, the tenth novel will actually be about how Kyon drank a ~love~ potion or is under some gimmicky spell. Now every girl in the city has a thing for him! How wacky and/or zany!

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Even Kuyo said his eyes were pretty in the novels.

Tachibana doesn't really seem all that interested in Kyon.

[yezhanquan]

...You're not one to mince words, are you?



Since when is this a problem in ero doujin?



Despite what he says about himself, Kyon is pretty cute. He's not necessarily as pretty as Itsuki, but he makes up for that with snark. Tons and tons of snark. And that's never a bad thing.

Well, it's either that, or Nagaru Tanigawa is desperate for ideas. Instead of going along with the story so far, the tenth novel will actually be about how Kyon drank a ~love~ potion or is under some gimmicky spell. Now every girl in the city has a thing for him! How wacky and/or zany!

I mean: come on! Does he have pimples? No. Is any part of his face strange? No. He already looks better than 80% of the people in his age group.

[OkamiNoKaze]

Does anybody think if Kyon were to wear a trench coat he'd look like the most recent Doctor or Doctor Who?

[Simplicity]

I mean: come on! Does he have pimples? No. Is any part of his face strange? No. He already looks better than 80% of the people in his age group.

I thought that's just because anime characters aren't typically drawn with pimples. Anyway, Kyon's pretty average-looking in my book...simple brown haircut, average height (for an Asian male I believe), etc. His charm to me mostly comes from his delightfully snarky personality.

[yezhanquan]

I thought that's just because anime characters aren't typically drawn with pimples. Anyway, Kyon's pretty average-looking in my book...simple brown haircut, average height (for an Asian male I believe), etc. His charm to me mostly comes from his delightfully snarky personality.

He's intended to be average all the way. Even his initial snarking is average. (You're up against Haruhi. You have to snark to preserve your sanity.) But, probe a bit deeper, and this guy will expose himself.

[Triple_R]

I'm going to say that there are times when Kyon seems too snarky to me; when the snark is so heavy laden that it contributes to the "unreliable narrator" effect that some of us here have pointed out.

Beyond that... I really don't see what's cool about always being negative.

Seriously.

Sure, a fair number of his comments and jokes are funny, but he goes overboard at times too, I think.

I'd much rather hang out with somebody upbeat like Haruhi. All in all...

I'm glad that Haruhi appears to be winning Kyon over moreso than Kyon dragging her down into increased cynicism, in the novels.

[yezhanquan]

You want too much snark? Check out the Haruhi-chan OP. He snarks to the point of sounding exhausted.

But, to be fair, he does have to curb Haruhi's drive. With her status, "drive" can translate into something that is out of control.

[TakariCritic]

Tachibana doesn't really seem all that interested in Kyon.


Sasaki seems to enjoy his company though. My guess is she hasn't found a good friend in High School, and desires her time spent with Kyon back.

Also, let's not forget Slider-tan called him "just to hear Sempai's voice". I mean, COME ON! Is there at least ONE member of the SOS Brigade who isn't romantically interested in Kyon? (And yes, I'm taking Koizumi into account :p)

[yezhanquan]

Er, that answer has got to be "no".

[Simplicity]

If there's one thing that bugs me about Kyon it's his overblown praise of Mikuru (particularly in the novels). Yes she's cute, we get it Kyon.

Kyon's got more going for him than just the snark though. He has his moments of cleverness, like in the end of the Sigh Arc.

Blah I wish I can come up with more to say. I always seem to blank when it comes to forum discussions.

[Triple_R]

If there's one thing that bugs me about Kyon it's his overblown praise of Mikuru (particularly in the novels). Yes she's cute, we get it Kyon.


Funny, his romanticizing over Mikuru is one of the things I like about Kyon. It shows that he's genuinely capable of positive thinking from time to time. Granted, I think that he blows Mikuru's appearance a bit out of proportion vis a vis what he says/thinks about Haruhi and Yuki (both of which being above average in physical appearance, imo), but for me, I'd like to see him recognize Haruhi and Yuki's good looks more instead of appreciating Mikuru's less.

[typhonsentra]

Well, I think he is awesome in the novel too. Though Sugita really does a exellent job (I am kinda going to watch Kannon onlt because of him).

But, about the 'unreliable narrator' part. Sure, he certanly don't say all he can about his personal feelings, as Disappearance can show us very well. But some seens to act as he is aways lieing, even whe describing something. Why people get this idea? There is some point in the books he does something like that? I so, where?

I think one of the main points of Editor in Chief was to show how he hides information he finds embarrassing. In a fit of panic he eventually explains the relationship with the mysterious girl but only after dragging his feat for the entire chapter and even then, he doesn't divulge any of the details for how his friends reacted to the revelation.

My big question about Kyon is whether he's supposed to be (Towards the world that sees him, not us the reader) an awkward socially-unaware geek (He constantly references obscure stufff and he once told Haruhi that if he was rich he'd spend it on games and comics). In the first book for instance I had the impression that he was somewhat experienced with girls and aware that Haruhi's interested in him but later scenes leave that in doubt. That entire scene in book 9 where Kyon was recounting the meeting with Sasaki at the train station he genuinely didn't seem to understand what went wrong, nor why Haruhi would be angry.

[Triple_R]

I think one of the main points of Editor in Chief was to show how he hides information he finds embarrassing. In a fit of panic he eventually explains the relationship with the mysterious girl but only after dragging his feat for the entire chapter and even then, he doesn't divulge any of the details for how his friends reacted to the revelation.

My big question about Kyon is whether he's supposed to be (Towards the world that sees him, not us the reader) an awkward socially-unaware geek (He constantly references obscure stufff and he once told Haruhi that if he was rich he'd spend it on games and comics). In the first book for instance I had the impression that he was somewhat experienced with girls and aware that Haruhi's interested in him but later scenes leave that in doubt. That entire scene in book 9 where Kyon was recounting the meeting with Sasaki at the train station he genuinely didn't seem to understand what went wrong, nor why Haruhi would be angry.

I think that (towards the world that sees him) Kyon comes off as a mildly eccentric loner. This image is softened somewhat by his very middle-of-the-road physical appearance, and a look that apparently many females find attractive. So, overall, he's "the quiet kid in school". Not an outright nerd, but not someone who people talk to a lot.

If not for Haruhi, there's a good chance that Kyon's only friends would be Taniguchi and Kunikida. This is precisely why he values the SOS Brigade so much, as much as he's loathe to admit it.

[Simplicity]

Funny, his romanticizing over Mikuru is one of the things I like about Kyon. It shows that he's genuinely capable of positive thinking from time to time. Granted, I think that he blows Mikuru's appearance a bit out of proportion vis a vis what he says/thinks about Haruhi and Yuki (both of which being above average in physical appearance, imo), but for me, I'd like to see him recognize Haruhi and Yuki's good looks more instead of appreciating Mikuru's less.

His compliments regarding Mikuru sometimes feel like purple prose to me, not quite Stephanie Meyer quality, but still sickeningly sweet. He totally puts her on a pedestal. I might be over exaggerating it though. I just remember when I first read the novels there was so much praise for her that I just got tired of reading it.

...Well it could be worse I guess. At least Kyon's compliments have some class to them.

His compliments regarding Haruhi and Yuki sound much more natural. And yeah I would also like for Kyon to compliment Haruhi and Yuki more.

Doesn't he pretty much say that Haruhi is as good-looking as Mikuru? I think there was something along those lines in Endless Eight (novel version anyway).

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Does anybody think if Kyon were to wear a trench coat he'd look like the most recent Doctor or Doctor Who?

... and Mikuru is his TARDIS...

Sasaki seems to enjoy his company though. My guess is she hasn't found a good friend in High School, and desires her time spent with Kyon back.

I was giving an example of a girl who isn't blatantly attracted to Kyon. :heh:

Also, let's not forget Slider-tan called him "just to hear Sempai's voice". I mean, COME ON! Is there at least ONE member of the SOS Brigade who isn't romantically interested in Kyon? (And yes, I'm taking Koizumi into account :p)

Technically... Mikuru has no intentions of pursuing a relationship with Kyon. If not for Haruhi's (and Nagato's) retribution, then because history says she didn't, so she can't.

I think that (towards the world that sees him) Kyon comes off as a mildly eccentric loner. This image is softened somewhat by his very middle-of-the-road physical appearance, and a look that apparently many females find attractive. So, overall, he's "the quiet kid in school". Not an outright nerd, but not someone who people talk to a lot.

If not for Haruhi, there's a good chance that Kyon's only friends would be Taniguchi and Kunikida. This is precisely why he values the SOS Brigade so much, as much as he's loathe to admit it.

Haruhi and Kyon are both examples of people who look attractive, but possess personalities that often clash with others.

[Launch]

I always thought that Kyon's (over) complimenting of Mikuru was more to do with the fact that he can't admit to himself that he actually likes Haruhi more. A kind of "No! Mikuru is the one I like, not anyone else!" type of thing :p Almost 'forcing' himself to compliment her so he doesn't have to think of Haruhi.

That's just the way I saw it. ^^;

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

At first, that isn't the case. Later on, possibly.

[ac195]

I'm going to say that there are times when Kyon seems too snarky to me...

Beyond that... I really don't see what's cool about always being negative.

...I'd much rather hang out with somebody upbeat like Haruhi. All in all...

I'm glad that Haruhi appears to be winning Kyon over moreso than Kyon dragging her down into increased cynicism, in the novels.

If you had to save the world on a regular basis (with no powers) and had to keep pace with Haruhi... You'd be a little overly snarky too.

Oh, and real life "genki" people ("genki" that's the nice way to put it...) aren't that fun to be with. The same goes for real life clumsy people... they aren't cute.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Why'd you bring up clumsy people? There's no one overly clumsy in Haruhi outside the spin-offs. :heh:

[ac195]

Why'd you bring up clumsy people? There's no one overly clumsy in Haruhi outside the spin-offs. :heh:

I think we could fit Mikuru in the "clumsy" people category.

[sacundim]

In the first book for instance I had the impression that he was somewhat experienced with girls and aware that Haruhi's interested in him but later scenes leave that in doubt. That entire scene in book 9 where Kyon was recounting the meeting with Sasaki at the train station he genuinely didn't seem to understand what went wrong, nor why Haruhi would be angry.

There are scenes in the anime where Kyon's narration betrays that he understands that if Haruhi gets jealous over him, terrible things could happen. Two examples:


In Sighs II, when Kyon's having lunch with Taniguchi and Kunikida, Taniguchi says that he's "figured out" that when he barged into Kyon and Nagato, it must have been some sort of joke set up by Haruhi. Kyon stares at Haruhi's empty seat and narrates that that Taniguichi's idiocy may have saved the world.
In Live Alive, Kyon refuses Taniguchi's invitation to go pick up girls, on the (narrated) ground that if a certain somebody were to see him trying to pick up girls, the consequences might be terrible.


This makes it much harder to believe that Kyon doesn't understand that Haruhi might be jealous about seeing him with Sasaki.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

I think we could fit Mikuru in the "clumsy" people category.

It's nowhere near being a defining aspect for her, though. That'd be like saying Kyon is overly cheerful because he's smiled once or twice. :heh:

[Heatth]

There are scenes in the anime where Kyon's narration betrays that he understands that if Haruhi gets jealous over him, terrible things could happen. Two examples:


In Sighs II, when Kyon's having lunch with Taniguchi and Kunikida, Taniguchi says that he's "figured out" that when he barged into Kyon and Nagato, it must have been some sort of joke set up by Haruhi. Kyon stares at Haruhi's empty seat and narrates that that Taniguichi's idiocy may have saved the world.
In Live Alive, Kyon refuses Taniguchi's invitation to go pick up girls, on the (narrated) ground that if a certain somebody were to see him trying to pick up girls, the consequences might be terrible.


This makes it much harder to believe that Kyon doesn't understand that Haruhi might be jealous about seeing him with Sasaki.

Good points. I gues this prooves Kyon is a lier... (when talking about Haruhi that is it)

[ac195]

It's nowhere near being a defining aspect for her, though. That'd be like saying Kyon is overly cheerful because he's smiled once or twice. :heh:

Her cicada is all the proof I need.
http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/2464/vlcsnap63902.png

There are scenes in the anime where Kyon's narration betrays that he understands that if Haruhi gets jealous over him, terrible things could happen. Two examples:


In Sighs II, when Kyon's having lunch with Taniguchi and Kunikida, Taniguchi says that he's "figured out" that when he barged into Kyon and Nagato, it must have been some sort of joke set up by Haruhi. Kyon stares at Haruhi's empty seat and narrates that that Taniguichi's idiocy may have saved the world.
In Live Alive, Kyon refuses Taniguchi's invitation to go pick up girls, on the (narrated) ground that if a certain somebody were to see him trying to pick up girls, the consequences might be terrible.


This makes it much harder to believe that Kyon doesn't understand that Haruhi might be jealous about seeing him with Sasaki.

Or could it be that Kyon has a little more faith in Haruhi and has grown a little? I think that's the case.

[Triple_R]

Technically... Mikuru has no intentions of pursuing a relationship with Kyon. If not for Haruhi's (and Nagato's) retribution, then because history says she didn't, so she can't.

Do we know this for certain? I mean, was there actual dialogue in the later novels to this effect?


Haruhi and Kyon are both examples of people who look attractive, but possess personalities that often clash with others.

Yes, I'd agree with that. I still think that Kyon comes off as a mostly quiet eccentric loner, though, to most of his class; I doubt that most of his classmates know what his personality is really like (Haruhi, on the other hand...). Kyon's association with Haruhi simply means he comes across as a bit less of a loner, but now as much more eccentric.


I always thought that Kyon's (over) complimenting of Mikuru was more to do with the fact that he can't admit to himself that he actually likes Haruhi more. A kind of "No! Mikuru is the one I like, not anyone else!" type of thing :p Almost 'forcing' himself to compliment her so he doesn't have to think of Haruhi.

That's just the way I saw it. ^^;

No offense, but this strikes me as a HaruhiKyon shipper really grasping for straws.

Also, I dislike the heavy layers of pretentiousness that some fans are reading into Kyon and Koizumi - such a notion makes them far less likable as characters, imo.

It's really not that hard to simply accept that Kyon finds Mikuru more attractive than Haruhi. It's really not. Yes, Haruhi has a great look herself, but if Kyon's main thing is basic cuteness and/or breast size, Mikuru genuinely has Haruhi beat there.


If you had to save the world on a regular basis (with no powers) and had to keep pace with Haruhi... You'd be a little overly snarky too.

No, I wouldn't be.

Not to say I'd handle it terribly better than Kyon does, but snark is rarely my coping mechanism of choice. Quite the contrary, my coping mechanism of choice is usually to try to look on the bright side of things as much as possible.

If I was in Kyon's shoes...

1) I'd be less snarky

2) I probably would have had a worse, more long-term traumatized reaction to the Asakura incident... but not snarky so much as I'd be more jumpy and a bit more cautious. I think that most people would have, honestly. Kyon's got serious guts, I'll give him that.

3) I'd simply refuse to pay out Haruhi's outrageous financial penalties, whatever the consequences... or, if Kyon's financially loaded (as I frequently suspect since he never objects to those penalties), I'd be more generous upfront to avoid the degrading nature of taking such financial penalties.

4) I would have taken Itsuki up on his "I love you" suggestion from the endless summer arc. If it works out well... great. If it doesn't, I can always blame Itsuki. :heh:

5) Overall, I'd be enjoying it all a lot more than Kyon is.


Beyond that, I'm not sure. Overall, Kyon has a lot of guts, I'll give him that.


Oh, and real life "genki" people ("genki" that's the nice way to put it...) aren't that fun to be with. The same goes for real life clumsy people... they aren't cute.

I know real life people with domineering take-charge personalities like Haruhi. I met them in College. They're usually a blast to hang out with. At the high school level, I would have loved to have had a friend like Haruhi.

[Heatth]

Or could it be that Kyon has a little more faith in Haruhi and has grown a little? I think that's the case.

That was nt the point. This two exemple just prooves he knows Haruhi might be jelous of him.

No offense, but this strikes me as a HaruhiKyon shipper really grasping for straws.

Also, I dislike the heavy layers of pretentiousness that some fans are reading into Kyon and Koizumi - such a notion makes them far less likable as characters, imo.

It's really not that hard to simply accept that Kyon finds Mikuru more attractive than Haruhi. It's really not. Yes, Haruhi has a great look herself, but if Kyon's main thing is basic cuteness and/or breast size, Mikuru genuinely has Haruhi beat there.

True. However, I would say that, if we go for the character itself, not physical appearance, I would say Mikuru is the girl who he likes less. Of the three she is the one who she trust less. She is the more attractive in his eyes, though.

4) I would have taken Itsuki up on his "I love you" suggestion from the endless summer arc. If it works out well... great. If it doesn't, I can always blame Itsuki. :heh:
lol

I know real life people with domineering take-charge personalities like Haruhi. I met them in College. They're usually a blast to hang out with. At the high school level, I would have loved to have had a friend like Haruhi.

I kinda agree. I you know how to handle her, she is a fun person. She is very annoying to most, however. And her acts to the CCP prooves she can be 'dangerous' too.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Do we know this for certain? I mean, was there actual dialogue in the later novels to this effect?

With the exception of the Nagato part, the FIRST novel spells it out. Mikuru is completely convinced that her merely being close to Kyon is enough to set Haruhi off, and she only admits to being from the future when Kyon asks about her personal life. :heh:

[Triple_R]

True. However, I would say that, if we go for the character itself, not physical appearance, I would say Mikuru is the girl who he likes less. Of the three she is the one who she trust less. She is the more attractive in his eyes, though.

I agree. Overall, I think that Kyon likes Haruhi more than he likes Mikuru. That he can't admit to himself.


I kinda agree. I you know how to handle her, she is a fun person. She is very annoying to most, however. And her acts to the CCP prooves she can be 'dangerous' too.

Oh yes, I agree with this. Haruhi would make a great friend... but she'd also be somebody you'd hate to have as an enemy, too. :heh:


With the exception of the Nagato part, the FIRST novel spells it out. Mikuru is completely convinced that her merely being close to Kyon is enough to set Haruhi off, and she only admits to being from the future when Kyon asks about her personal life. :heh:

That alone doesn't really tell me that KyonMikuru is no-go for life. It just tells me that KyonMikuru is no-go for the extent of time that Haruhi is into Kyon.

We, as fans, are assuming HaruhiKyon is predestined... and it might be... or it could, in theory, simply be the Haruhi has a long crush on Kyon and Kyon helps her out for a key period of time, but she ends up with another guy... freeing Kyon up for Mikuru or Nagato. It's not entirely outside the realm of possibility - I mean, it's certainly not likely, but it's not like the novel has absolutely blocked itself off from this avenue.


One more thing I want to say on Kyon, and I'm surprised that I haven't mentioned it yet...

He is the ultimate anti-exploitation character. He is so anti-exploitation/opportunistic that it's incredible - it's definitely one of his more admirable character traits in a morality sense, but also paradoxically one of his more questionable character traits in an intellectual sense.

Kyon basically knows that there's a girl with high-end reality altering powers that is very attached to him.

Now... you don't have to be a megalomaniacal villain to see the possibilities here. In fact, I should hope that everybody sees the possibilities inherent in this situation right now, before reading further.

I think that almost any character (other than Kyon) would at least be tempted to do the following given his situation...

1) Be really, really nice to Haruhi, do everything possible to get on her good side (up to and including becoming her boyfriend), and even leave her feeling indebted to you in some way if at all possible.

2) Then tell her how powerful she is, and persuade her to believe it. Use the "I am John Smith" line to make her consider that what you're telling her is true. On another board, I wrote the sort of dialogue that I think could get Haruhi to really test out her powers.

3) If you successfully complete steps 1 and 2... you now have, in essence, a fully self-aware genie with limitless wish-granting abilities that's your best friend/girlfriend. Eat your heart out, Disney's Alladin! :heh:

"Hey, Haruhi, why don't you have... I strike a Dr. Evil voice and look: One trillion yen!... just magically appear in two brand new Swiss bank accounts for you and me? Imagine what we could do with that money!"

"Hey, Haruhi, why not make us immortal, eh?"

"Hey, Haruhi, wouldn't it be cool to own an animation studio?"

"Hey, Haruhi, why not make yourself Prime Minister of Japan and me Prime Minister of Canada? It would be a blast!"


And so on, and so forth. :D

It just blows me away that Kyon doesn't even once seem to consider going down this path. Sure, dude, you find her annoying, but still... think of the possibilities!

In this sense, in particular, Kyon is perfect for hiding the fact that Haruhi is so powerful from her. A lot of people in his situation would try to take advantage of it, I think.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

You forget that he has two reality-altering girls in his life, and while the other is (supposedly) limited in comparison, she's already at the "willing to do anything Kyon asks" stage, and has pretty much been that way since Melancholy. :heh:

[Launch]

No offense, but this strikes me as a HaruhiKyon shipper really grasping for straws.

Also, I dislike the heavy layers of pretentiousness that some fans are reading into Kyon and Koizumi - such a notion makes them far less likable as characters, imo.

It's really not that hard to simply accept that Kyon finds Mikuru more attractive than Haruhi. It's really not. Yes, Haruhi has a great look herself, but if Kyon's main thing is basic cuteness and/or breast size, Mikuru genuinely has Haruhi beat there.


To be honest, I don't think I've ever done any shipping for any series. xD I just go with the flow.
Regardless, because the novels are basically setting up the two, that's just the way I've read it up until now. I think Heatth explained it better than I did, anyway.

[ac195]

No, I wouldn't be.

Not to say I'd handle it terribly better than Kyon does, but snark is rarely my coping mechanism of choice. Quite the contrary, my coping mechanism of choice is usually to try to look on the bright side of things as much as possible.

If I was in Kyon's shoes...

1) I'd be less snarky

2) I probably would have had a worse, more long-term traumatized reaction to the Asakura incident... but not snarky so much as I'd be more jumpy and a bit more cautious. I think that most people would have, honestly. Kyon's got serious guts, I'll give him that.

3) I'd simply refuse to pay out Haruhi's outrageous financial penalties, whatever the consequences... or, if Kyon's financially loaded (as I frequently suspect since he never objects to those penalties), I'd be more generous upfront to avoid the degrading nature of taking such financial penalties.

4) I would have taken Itsuki up on his "I love you" suggestion from the endless summer arc. If it works out well... great. If it doesn't, I can always blame Itsuki. :heh:

5) Overall, I'd be enjoying it all a lot more than Kyon is.


Beyond that, I'm not sure. Overall, Kyon has a lot of guts, I'll give him that.


Haruhi wouldn't like you at all if that was the case. His "snarky" self is what makes him so different compared to every other guy that has approached her. And Kyon is enjoying everything, he just won't admit it openly.


That alone doesn't really tell me that KyonMikuru is no-go for life. It just tells me that KyonMikuru is no-go for the extent of time that Haruhi is into Kyon.

We, as fans, are assuming HaruhiKyon is predestined... and it might be... or it could, in theory, simply be the Haruhi has a long crush on Kyon and Kyon helps her out for a key period of time, but she ends up with another guy... freeing Kyon up for Mikuru or Nagato. It's not entirely outside the realm of possibility - I mean, it's certainly not likely, but it's not like the novel has absolutely blocked itself off from this avenue.


This is pure delusion right here.

If the novel actually ends with a definitive couple it's gonna be KyonHaruhi... but that's only if it's a definitive ending and not some open-ended a day in the life of the SOS-dan ending.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

I keep telling everyone, the ending is going to be Kyon and Haruhi lying on a beach, surrounded by the tang that the rest of humanity has become. :p

[ac195]

I keep telling everyone, the ending is going to be Kyon and Haruhi lying on a beach, surrounded by the tang that the rest of humanity has become. :p

Like this?
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/3838/haruhieoe.jpg

[Triple_R]

Haruhi wouldn't like you at all if that was the case. His "snarky" self is what makes him so different compared to every other guy that has approached her.

There's more than one way to be different, ac. Being snarky isn't the only way. Also, most of Kyon's snarkiness is narration. How much of that Haruhi is even aware of is open to interpretation.

Furthermore, GMT earlier put forward some reasons for why Haruhi chose Kyon - snarkiness was not one of them.


And Kyon is enjoying everything, he just won't admit it openly.

Enjoying everything, yet acting snarky all the time? He may be enjoying some of it, but I have a very hard time believing that he's enjoying all of it. It simply does not compute.




This is pure delusion right here.

No, it's not. Other Haruhi fans other than myself have speculated that the series may end on KyonYuki. Certainly, the novels big focus lately has not been Haruhi - there's been far more focus on Yuki as of late. That at least raises the possibility of a KyonYuki ending.



If the novel actually ends with a definitive couple it's gonna be KyonHaruhi... but that's only if it's a definitive ending and not some open-ended a day in the life of the SOS-dan ending.

An open-ended conclusion is possible too, yes.


You forget that he has two reality-altering girls in his life, and while the other is (supposedly) limited in comparison, she's already at the "willing to do anything Kyon asks" stage, and has pretty much been that way since Melancholy. :heh:

I don't think that Yuki would entertain suggestions that she would likely consider frivolous - like monetary enrichment.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Like this?
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/3838/haruhieoe.jpg

Something like that. Shame there's no pictures of them being the other way around. :heh:

No, it's not. Other Haruhi fans other than myself have speculated that the series may end on KyonYuki. Certainly, the novels big focus lately has not been Haruhi - there's been far more focus on Yuki as of late. That at least raises the possibility of a KyonYuki ending.

Yes, that's why Nagato more or less returned to a supporting role during Vol7. And one side of Vol9. And the story that you'd think was about her in Vol8 was hijacked by --get this-- HARUHI. Of course, I'll admit Nagato kinda hijacked the other half of the book. :heh:

[Heatth]

There's more than one way to be different, ac. Being snarky isn't the only way. Also, most of Kyon's snarkiness is narration. How much of that Haruhi is even aware of is open to interpretation.

Have to agree here. I find hard to believe anyone is aware of how snarky Kyon is.

Enjoying everything, yet acting snarky all the time? He may be enjoying some of it, but I have a very hard time believing that he's enjoying all of it. It simply does not compute.

He at last, enjoy most of it. The end of Melancholy make it clear (come on he enjoied even when he was amost killed!!). There is also that other book. You should know which.


No, it's not. Other Haruhi fans other than myself have speculated that the series may end on KyonYuki. Certainly, the novels big focus lately has not been Haruhi - there's been far more focus on Yuki as of late. That at least raises the possibility of a KyonYuki ending.

I think KyonxYuki very cute. I don't believe it is happening, thouhg. Novel9 back the focus to Haruhi.

Post Postum:
Yes, that's why Nagato more or less returned to a supporting role during Vol7. And one side of Vol9. And the story that you'd think was about her in Vol8 was hijacked by --get this-- HARUHI. Of course, I'll admit Nagato kinda hijacked the other half of the book. :heh:

Wait, you are talking about which story?

[Triple_R]

Have to agree here. I find hard to believe anyone is aware of how snarky Kyon is.

Agreed.


He at last, enjoy most of it. The end of Melancholy make it clear (come on he enjoied even when he was amost killed!!). There is also that other book. You should know which.

Most of it... probably. All of it? No. He's not enjoying Sighs. That's quite obvious, unless you think Kyon is the biggest self-deceiver ever. :heh:



I think KyonxYuki very cute. I don't believe it is happening, thouhg. Novel9 back the focus to Haruhi.

I wouldn't bet money on it, either. I also think it has a low chance of happening. But it's not flat-out impossible. It wouldn't shock me if the story went this way. The novel writer obviously enjoys writing Nagato, and has left room to have the novels believably end on KyonxYuki, if he so desires.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Wait, you are talking about which story?

Volume 7: She takes the spotlight in the prologue, as it's used to "explain" the end of Disappearance. After that, the only real focus she gets is a brief overnight visit from "Michiru" and Kyon asking her to rig a drawing because history said it happened.
Volume 8: Wandering Shadow is the story that Nagato hijacks, much like she did with Mysterique Sign.
With Editor In Chief, the story based around the Literary Club, the most focus Nagato gets outside the initial setup is a poem that gives a little insight into her character. A poem she wrote, meaning that the only person that really focused on Nagato was, well, Nagato.
Volume 9: The only focus Nagato really gets here that isn't a copy of Editor In Chief is at the "end" of one of the two timelines, when Haruhi finally notices she isn't there. After the Brigade spends almost the entire passage in the clubroom talking to each other.

[Heatth]

Agreed.

I agree.... Wait! I was already agreeing! You don't need to agree back. :heh:


Most of it... probably. All of it? No. He's not enjoying Sighs. That's quite obvious, unless you think Kyon is the biggest self-deceiver ever. :heh:

Sighs is more an exeption the a rule.
that[/b] Sigh's scene"]It is why Haruhi as shocked in the first place. She belived Kyon would agree with anything she does. She was more or less right. But she crossed the line that time.

I wouldn't bet money on it, either. I also think it has a low chance of happening. But it's not flat-out impossible. It wouldn't shock me if the story went this way. The novel writer obviously enjoys writing Nagato, and has left room to have the novels believably end on KyonxYuki, if he so desires.

When you put in that way, yeah, you speek the true.

Volume 7: She takes the spotlight in the prologue, as it's used to "explain" the end of Disappearance. After that, the only real focus she gets is a brief overnight visit from "Michiru" and Kyon asking her to rig a drawing because history said it happened.
Volume 8: Wandering Shadow is the story that Nagato hijacks, much like she did with Mysterique Sign.
With Editor In Chief, the story based around the Literary Club, the most focus Nagato gets outside the initial setup is a poem that gives a little insight into her character. A poem she wrote, meaning that the only person that really focused on Nagato was, well, Nagato.
Volume 9: The only focus Nagato really gets here that isn't a copy of Editor In Chief is at the "end" of one of the two timelines, when Haruhi finally notices she isn't there. After the Brigade spends almost the entire passage in the clubroom talking to each other.

Oh, I see what you mean now. Tough it might be you who was expecting too much... exept it was what was happeing few volumes before.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Actually, I prefer Nagato in a supporting role. Just feels weird to have that someone like her taking the center stage for an extended period of time. :heh:

But... we have another topic to discuss Nagato. She doesn't need to take this one. :p

[Dr. Casey]

I'm going to say that there are times when Kyon seems too snarky to me; when the snark is so heavy laden that it contributes to the "unreliable narrator" effect that some of us here have pointed out.

Beyond that... I really don't see what's cool about always being negative.

Seriously.

Sure, a fair number of his comments and jokes are funny, but he goes overboard at times too, I think.

Now this sounds interesting. What do you think are some examples of Kyon's snark going overboard? I'm guessing that Sighs has some instances of this (I remember you saying that sometimes one might think Kyon almost hated Haruhi in that story), but do you remember any statements or passages that seem especially negative or harsh?

The only part where I didn't like Kyon so much (In the anime, I've never read the light novels) was actually his introductory diatribe about never believing in Santa Claus. There's no better way to come across as soulless and obnoxiously pragmatic than to describe at length how you lacked imagination even as a kid... not to mention that sort of conversation always annoyed me back in elementary school. "I stopped believing in Santa when I was six!" "I've known he's fake since I was three!" Yeah, congrats on being the most street-smart toddler around, I guess. I believed in him until I was 10 or 11 and enjoyed Christmas more because of it. The first impressions were forgotten quickly enough, though, as I realized that Kyon was not a pseudo-intellectual teenager as I first thought, but... well, Kyon. His negativity hasn't bothered me that much mainly because it's aimed at deserving targets (Haruhi and Koizumi; with everyone else, he seems pretty magnanimous and polite both in his discourse and internal monologues), but of course I haven't read the novels, where every line of exposition comes from Kyon and we get a better look into his head.

[Triple_R]

Now this sounds interesting. What do you think are some examples of Kyon's snark going overboard? I'm guessing that Sighs has some instances of this (I remember you saying that sometimes one might think Kyon almost hated Haruhi in that story), but do you remember any statements or passages that seem especially negative or harsh?

I'm going to evaluate a few examples of Kyon's snark going overboard, imo. Hopefully, this will help give you an idea of what I'm talking about. Kyon's narration is in quotation marks in order to make it easier to separate from my commentary. My commentary on the quote will be below a line after each one.


"I don't think anyone in the world would intentionally step on something that says "Warning: explodes when stepped on" in red neon lights. Even I don't have the courage to do that. If I had only known, I would not have talked to that stubborn girl who put up that unfriendly expression every day.

A normal high schooler who accidentally pressed a button that activated a time bomb, and is now being forced to carry that bomb around like a moron - that's me. And this time bomb labeled "Suzumiya Haruhi" doesn't even have a counter on it. I have no idea when it's going to explode, how much damage it will cause, or what else is inside. Even more importantly, I don't even know if this bomb is real. Maybe it's just a toy used to fool little kids.

I can't seem to find the trash bin labeled "Hazardous Materials Only" no matter how hard I try. Which means, this dangerous entity that I've activated is essentially covered with superglue, stuck to my hand harder than anything else could be.

Sigh... Where am I gonna find a place to dump it?"

___________________________________________


Now, the first two paragraphs aren't too bad, in and of themselves. In fact, I list them here purely for added context. I don't fault Kyon for feeling the way he does in the first two paragraphs.

But, the fact remains, he's basically saying that Haruhi is like a hazardous material, and that he'd like to dump her off somewhere and (presumably) never see her again. Now, maybe it's the trained Safety Officer in me, but seeing a living human being compared to hazardous waste really doesn't sit well with me.

Kyon's snark here is pretty cold, and harsh, imo.


The next instance is in Chapter 1 of Sighs...

Hanging out with this bunch, how am I supposed to peacefully live through this extraordinary high school life of mine? I really don't want to get involved in silly stuff anymore. Just thinking about it is enough to give me an urge to aim a gun at my forehead, or extract and burn the brain cells containing those memories. Though I don't know what Haruhi would say about that.

Maybe I was too busy thinking how to erase those memories of the past because I wasn't paying attention to what the annoying girl next to me was raving about."

__________________________________________________ __


Now, I don't necessarily think that this is too snarky... but it is pretty strong. Suicide or forced amnesia - seems pretty extreme to me.

Anyway, it's this particular narration above that I have a very hard time reconciling with the last two sections of Novel 4.


One short narration in Chapter 1...

"I would really like to drill a hole in Haruhi's head and replace the contents within. Sadly, I would find nothing inside and can only sigh. "

______________________________

Now, granted, this was brought on by the infamous "Spill hot tea on Kyon" scene. :heh:

Still, it always irks me when I see Kyon pretty much say that Haruhi is brainless... because it's patently false. Her excellence in school marks alone proves that. She's also a frequently eloquent speaker.

I don't mind Kyon calling Haruhi "crazy" or "eccentric" or "weird" or anything like that... but she's not dumb, and Kyon ought to know better, imo. This is far from the only example of him directly speaking lowly of Haruhi's intelligence.


Get a load of this comparison between Haruhi and Mikuru... :heh:

"If Asahina-san was a white rose blooming in the wild, then Haruhi would be a special breed of rose that doesn't even blossom and is full of thorns; it probably doesn't even have seeds."

__________________________________________________ __


I guess that Kyon thinks that Haruhi is infertile, going by the lack of seeds comment... I have to admit, that's a funny line if you like strong satire... but whew, it's still really harsh. It's an epic insult if Kyon actually says it.




More Chapter 1 coming up...



"Haruhi mumbled, looking unhappy. Speaking of which, just who would expect anything from the SOS Brigade? Now that's something worthy for a questionnaire! The SOS Brigade has not even grown, the number of members has still remained the same, let alone being promoted into an Association. So it's best to maintain the status quo, but sooner or later, the Haruhi Express is going to derail someday. There're only five passengers on this train, at least find a replacement for me. Or perhaps just give me an hourly salary, even 100 yen would do."

This is one of his milder comments, and I actually got a chuckle out of the Haruhi express line, but the thing is... Kyon doesn't stop. He just doesn't stop! :heh:

All of the above, Dr. Casey, is from a Prologue and one Chapter, and I've left out loads of the milder snark!

Now, some short zingers... (my comments for each is in paranthesis).



"I'd rather memorize all the station names of the nearby railway than memorize your crap rhetoric. " ('your' referring to Haruhi)


"Haruhi declared passionately, like a grizzly bear in a zoo holding on to an ice cube during the hot summer. The surroundings no longer concern her." (Lovely mental image there, Kyon, lol :heh: )


"If people want to achieve time travel, just put Haruhi on a spaceship. Since she probably wouldn't give a damn about the Theory of Relativity anyway.

As I mentioned this to Nagato, all that the silent alien said was, "Your opinion may be correct."

For Nagato, this is very meaningful. For others, Suzumiya Haruhi is a joke."

(Again - this is just an untrue snark; Haruhi clearly cares about the Theory of Relativity as per what she said in Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody - how is Kyon not remembering that? Mind you, how is Yuki not remembering it? :twitch: And the loathing that Kyon is displaying for Haruhi is just oozing off of the "Haruhi is a joke" line)


"There used to be a saying, "There's nothing more terrifying than not needing to pay." The thing is, Haruhi doesn't seem to care. If someone knows something that would make her terrified, please, do let me know. " (So... I guess Kyon would like to terrify Haruhi...)


" Running towards my side is Taniguchi, a classmate of Haruhi's and mine, a very simple single-celled organism, and as normal a high school student as you can find anywhere. " (Now... I know Taniguchi is a bit shallow, but "simple single-celled organism"? :heh: )




Anyway... does this prove my point? What do you think, Dr. Casey?


The only part where I didn't like Kyon so much (In the anime, I've never read the light novels) was actually his introductory diatribe about never believing in Santa Claus. There's no better way to come across as soulless and obnoxiously pragmatic than to describe at length how you lacked imagination even as a kid... not to mention that sort of conversation always annoyed me back in elementary school. "I stopped believing in Santa when I was six!" "I've known he's fake since I was three!" Yeah, congrats on being the most street-smart toddler around, I guess. I believed in him until I was 10 or 11 and enjoyed Christmas more because of it. The first impressions were forgotten quickly enough, though, as I realized that Kyon was not a pseudo-intellectual teenager as I first thought, but... well, Kyon. His negativity hasn't bothered me that much mainly because it's aimed at deserving targets (Haruhi and Koizumi; with everyone else, he seems pretty magnanimous and polite both in his discourse and internal monologues), but of course I haven't read the novels, where every line of exposition comes from Kyon and we get a better look into his head.

I felt the exact same way over the Santa thing as you did.

In fairness, Kyon's a fair bit better in the anime - they tend to edit out or soften some of his harsher lines. But in the novels...

[ac195]

There's more than one way to be different, ac. Being snarky isn't the only way. Also, most of Kyon's snarkiness is narration. How much of that Haruhi is even aware of is open to interpretation.

Furthermore, GMT earlier put forward some reasons for why Haruhi chose Kyon - snarkiness was not one of them.

Enjoying everything, yet acting snarky all the time? He may be enjoying some of it, but I have a very hard time believing that he's enjoying all of it. It simply does not compute.

No, it's not. Other Haruhi fans other than myself have speculated that the series may end on KyonYuki. Certainly, the novels big focus lately has not been Haruhi - there's been far more focus on Yuki as of late. That at least raises the possibility of a KyonYuki ending.


Kyon's "snarky" self serves two purposes regarding Haruhi.
1) To actively challenge Haruhi in a some what playful manner.
2) To cover up his own feelings. (Koizumi points this out a couple times)

As for any other coupling, PURE DELUSION! You can lie to yourselves all you want but it's gonna be KyonHaruhi or an open ended one.

[Ice Block]

Sorry to veer a little from the current topic, but speaking of Volume 8:
Here we see the story of Kyon's "first date", so to speak. Taken from Baka-Tsuki (http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume8_Editor_in_ Chief%E2%98%85Straight_Ahead!):

『It was before I entered high school; a time when I was just passing through what remained of the last spring break of middle school......』
It was before I entered high school; a time when I was just passing
through what remained of the last spring break of middle school.

Though I had already received my middle school diploma, I still didn't
feel like I was going to be a high school student, and if I could, I'd keep
that status forever, I remember thinking.

As a result of being sent to private tutoring by my mother since I entered
third year, getting through the entrance exams without a hitch was, well,
easy enough. However, when I went there for a preliminary inspection
before the exams, I thought that having to go up that slope that just went
on and on for three years of high school would get really tedious. Come
to think of it, in relation to the division of the school districts, I had
some good friends in the municipal next to my neighborhood, but
because they'd decided to go to far-away private schools, I felt my
feelings of loneliness would worsen whether I liked it or not.

At that time, I had no idea I would be meeting a strange girl as soon
as high school started, and never saw my name getting on the
member list of some bizarre brigade even in my daydreams, so as I
looked back at my middle school days, I was somewhat anxious
about the unknowns of high school life, which, in short, is the reason
for my eagerness.

And so, I buried that loneliness that had taken over a large part of
my heart, kept sleeping lethargically up 'till noon, opened the game
tournament that was supposedly the farewell party for the people
going on to other high schools, then went on to watch a movie―――
which was fun and all, but passing day after day like that got tiresome
before long, so, after having brunch, I just idled away that early, pre-April
afternoon in my own room like a cow.

After sleeping, waking up, eating, and then lying on my bed to sleep
again, the ringing melody of the house phone started up and reached
my ears.

Having no extension in my room, I left it for my mom or sister to answer,
but a moment later, my sister came into my room carrying the cordless phone.

It felt like she's been doing this for a while now, but whenever she
came to me with the phone in her hand, this peculiar feeling would well
up inside me.

However, though I might be repeating myself, the me of that time was
still pure, and my experience points were overwhelmingly insufficient.

"Kyon-kun, phone~"

My sister gave me a strange smile,

"Who is it?"

"It's a girl~"

My little sister pushed the receiver to me, grinned widely, twirled
her body around, and then left my room with a hop, step, and a jump.

Strange. Usually, she wouldn't budge from my room until I drove her
out, so why was she in such a hurry?

Anyway, just who could this be? As I scrolled across the main menu in
my mind for the face of the girl who could've called me, I pushed the
talk button on the receiver.

"Hello?"

A moment passed,

"......Yes. Um......"

It was a girl's voice for sure. However, my search mode didn't finish
as I couldn't recognize who it was. But it was a voice I had heard
somewhere before.

"It's me. Yoshimura Miyoko. Good afternoon. Are you feeling well
right now? You're not busy, are you?"

"Ah-......"

As I started thinking, the scrolling in my head came to a complete stop.
It was no surprise that she sounded familiar, since she was someone
I had met many times. I just had difficulties realizing it since she
had said her full name. It was Yoshimura Miyoko, nicknamed Miyokichi.

"Ah, it's you. Yeah, I'm not busy at all. Too much free time, actually."

"Wonderful."

She said with heartfelt relief, making me feel hesitant. Just what
did she want with me?

"Are you free tomorrow? The day after tomorrow is also good. But it
won't do if it goes into April. Would you lend me some of your time?"

"Um, you're asking me?" (※1)

"Yes. I'm sorry for saying it so suddenly. Tomorrow, or the day after
tomorrow. Are you going to be busy?"

"Not at all. I'm free all day for either one."

"Wonderful."

She let out an honest, whispering voice that once again sounded
like it had come from the bottom of her heart,

"I have a favor to ask of you."

Miyoko shifted to a nervous voice in some way, and continued.

"The whole day tomorrow will do. Would you please go out with me?"

As I gazed at the gap in my door to chase after the shadow of my sister
who had just left,

"Me?"

"Yes."

"With you?"

"Yes."

Miyoko lowered her voice,

"Just us two. Is this no good?"

"Nope, there's nothing wrong with that."

"Wonderful."

I heard her give an exaggerated sigh of relief again, and with a voice
that sounded like she was working hard to restrain her cheerfulness,

"Well then, I'll be looking forward to it."

I could picture Miyoko's figure bowing through the telephone line.

After that, she proposed a time and place for the meeting, worrying
about whether they were convenient for me, while I simply said
"Got it" and went along,

"I'm sorry. For calling so suddenly."

"It's okay. I wasn't doing anything, anyway."

After responding vaguely to that girl who was modest to the end,
I hung up. If I didn't end it right there, I was sure Miyoko would go
on giving thank-you's indefinitely. Yoshimura Miyoko, nicknamed Miyokichi,
was that kind of girl.

To return the phone to its original location, I exited to the corridor.
As soon as I did, I found my sister waiting there while looking giddy
for some reason, so I pushed the extension onto her.

"Nyahaha~"

My younger sister laughed out like a fool, waving the receiver around
as she went away. As I worried about my little sister's future, I recalled
the calmness of Miyokichi's voice. (※2)
And then, the next day.

I don't plan on writing too much about the details. It would be
troublesome to say even a single word. This is a story, not an activity
report or a ship's log. Much less my diary or something like that.

Being the writer, I will do whatever I like. I can do that, can't I?

On that day, as I went to the appointed location, I saw that Miyokochi
had arrived earlier and was waiting for me as I walked hurriedly to
meet her. When she noticed me, she turned her face towards me and
gave me a bow.

"Good morning."

After greeting me with a very thin voice, she set the sash of her
hand bag on her shoulder, and then raised her head, making her
ponytail swish around. She was wearing a light blue cardigan over
her flower-pattern blouse, and for the bottom, she had on slim,
seven-tenths length jeans. It suited her slender figure well.

I gave her a "hey" as something of a return, before I slowly took in
the surroundings.

We were in front of the station. This would become familiar when
we make customary use of it as the gathering point for the SOS Brigade.
However, at this time, it would be several months later before I
become attached to that ambiguous brigade, and I had no idea that
I would be pushed around by my chin because of a Brigade Chief who
would break into this world and reign supreme, so I just gazed
normally around the vicinity. There should be no reason to think that
there'd be trouble if someone were to see me and a girl meeting
as a pair. Wouldn't you think that way, as well? (※3)

"Um..."

Miyokichi said with a trace of nervousness on her elegant face.

"There's someplace I want to go to, is that okay?"

"That's fine."

So we went. If I didn't plan on going, then I would've just broken it off
yesterday through the phone. And there was no reason for me to
flatly refuse Miyokichi's request.

"Thank you."

To not make it overly polite, Miyokichi only gave one bow at a time,

"There's a movie that I've been wanting to see."

Of course, she didn't have to worry about it. I'll even buy her tickets.

"There's no need for that. I will pay for myself. Since it was me who
had unreasonably asked you to go."

After stating it clearly, she beamed. It was what you would call a
smile that knew no impurity. An innocent smile that differed in
meaning from my little sister's.

Incidentally, there were no movie theaters in the area. Miyokichi and
I turned to the station, bought passes, and took the train. The movie
that she wanted to see wasn't in the cinema complex or the big
theater; since it was a minor affair of an up-and-comer, it was just out
as a small, single-hall preview.

At the intervals when we were being jostled about in the juddering
train, she would hold onto the town guide and gaze outside the
window the whole time, but she would sometimes remember to
look up at my face, and give a quick bow.

It wasn't that we were both totally silent, since we did have our
conversations, but I won't write anything about that. We just
chatted about random things. I remember talking about what school
she would be going to after that spring, and about my little sister. (※4)

It was the same when we arrived at our station and walked to the
movie theater. However, it seemed like she was getting a little
nervous. That nervousness went on until we arrived at the theater
and made it to the front of the ticket counter. (※5)

Though it was almost time for the next showing to begin, the queue
for the ticket counter was empty, showing how low the attendance
for the film was. After glancing at Miyokichi, I turned to the glass
window where an old lady seemed to be idling away,

"Two students please."

I said.
After being admitted without a hitch, Miyokichi and I went to our
seats in the middle of the single-hall theater; it was hardly what you
would call spacious. Regarding how small the attendance was, the number
of people entering was so sparse that it was virtually empty.

As for the kind of movie, it was one of those gory horrors. To be honest,
it wasn't a genre that I liked very much, but just for that day, I
couldn't help but listen to her wishes. At any rate, her tastes didn't
seem to fit her quiet looks. Did she really want to see it that much?

During the show, she turned into an eager movie fan as she showed
an appreciation for the screen, but here and there, during the scary scenes
that were characteristic of horror films, she meekly gave a little start,
turned her face away, and grabbed my arm once, which calmed me down for
some reason.

But other than that, her eyes were glued to the images, and she looked
so serious that if they were to see her with that much concentration, even
the film makers would be satisfied.

At first glance, if I were to reveal my impressions of the film point-blank,
it would go something like "This is a B-movie, isn't it?" which is something
I couldn't just say. Though I don't think I lost anything by watching it,
I didn't gain anything, either. I couldn't even recall learning anything
from advanced reviews at all; they must not have done much work on
their advertising.

Why could she have picked this movie?

I asked her,

"An actor that I like appears in it."

She replied with a bit of embarrassment.

The ending credits hadn't finished scrolling when the curtains closed,
and we exited the theater.

It was past noon by then. Are we also going for lunch somewhere? Just
when I was thinking if it was time to go home, she said in a voice
that sounded nothing but humble,

"There's a shop that I want to go see, but is that okay with you?"

When I looked at her, she was circling the corner of the open page on her
guide book with a red pen. The store was in an area that we could walk
to from here.

After I considered it a bit,

"It's decided, then."

I answered, and started walking according to the simple map printed on
the magazine page. As silent as ever, she walked diagonally behind me.
We must have talked about a few things, but I don't really remember.
After walking for a while, we arrived at a cozy-looking tea shop.
Seeing the stylish facade and interior, it seemed like it would take
an extraordinary amount of courage for a guy to enter by himself; he'd
feel like a fish out of water. I had unconsciously frozen at the front
of the store, but when I came to look up at Miyokichi's worried face, it
felt natural as I pushed on the manually-opening wooden doors.

As I had expected, most of the customers occupying the store were girls.
It was spectacular. For some reason, I felt relieved at how many mixed
couples there were.

The waitress who had led us to our seats, looked at Miyokichi and me with
a smile, brought glasses of water with a smile, and finally asked for
our order with a smile.

After scanning the menu for thirty seconds, I ordered a Neapolitan and an
iced coffee, while she got the deluxe cake set. It seems like she had
decided on what to order from the beginning, From among the ten types
of cake the waitress had brought as samples, she pointed at the Mont
Blanc without hesitation.

"You're okay with just the cake set?"

I expectedly asked.

"Won't you still be hungry with just that?"

"No, I'll be okay."

She straightened her back, put her hands on her knees, and said with a
tense face.

"I don't eat much."

Was her unexpected response. Maybe because I had been looking at her
steadily, she lowered her face. Panicking, I rushed to explain myself,
and felt that way until I had succeeded in getting her to smile again.
Thinking about it now, I said such embarrassing things that it had made
me sweat. It would be useless to write something like, uh, she was totally
cute just as she was. But, Miyokichi was indeed a beautiful girl. I would
think that about half of the boys in her class must be enamored with her.

Once they had arrived, she took about thirty minutes to nibble on her
Mont Blanc and sip her Darjeeling Tea. As for me, I finished my meal
quickly; it took just enough time for the ice in my iced coffee to melt.

I had quite some time in my hands, but I still couldn't understand her,
and as I threw some random subjects at her, she would just nod or shake
her head....... Well, considering it now, I don't think I paid that
much attention to it. I was just a bundle of sensitivity back then.
And probably all nervous.
I was going to pay for the tea shop bill. But she wouldn't listen,
insisting to the end that she would pay for her own share.

"Because I'm the one who wanted to go out today."

She said as her point.

Having finished settling our accounts, we started walking around in the
bright sunlight. After the horror movie, and that gorgeous little tea
shop, where did she want to go next? Or was it time for her to go home?

"............"

As we strolled, she went silent for a long while. And some time later,

"There is this one last place......"

The place she revealed in a small voice, was my home.



After all of that, I took her back to my home, and with my little sister,
who seemed like she had been waiting for us to arrive, the three of us
played games together.

By the way, Yoshimura Miyoko, nicknamed Miyokichi, was my little
sister's classmate, as well as her best friend, and at that time, she was
a ten-year-old, fourth-year student in Grade School.

I believe this has already been discussed in the old threads, but I would like to see the new generation's take on this (and Kyon's lolicon tendencies).

Also, in before "Kyon-kun, denwa~". :heh:

[Kaisos Erranon]

Gotta love how he doesn't even consider -that girl- when told to "write a romance story", even though he thinks about her 'once every few days', according to LOVER... :heh:

Instead he writes about Miyoko. What a siscon.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Miyoko has a full name, she must be important! :p

[Kaisos Erranon]

Miyoko has a full name, she must be important! :p

I'd laugh if Slider-tan was an older version of her... :heh:

[Heatth]

I think it is possible. More then Imouto-chan, in my opinion.

We should be using spoiler tags, however.

[quigonkenny]

I'm going to evaluate a few examples of Kyon's snark going overboard, imo. Hopefully, this will help give you an idea of what I'm talking about. Kyon's narration is in quotation marks in order to make it easier to separate from my commentary. My commentary on the quote will be below a line after each one.


-BIIIIIIIG snip-


Anyway... does this prove my point? What do you think, Dr. Casey?
Wow...dude... You need to a) not take things so seriously and b) learn to read in context. Half of those examples you gave you're completely misreading...

Volume 7: She takes the spotlight in the prologue, as it's used to "explain" the end of Disappearance. After that, the only real focus she gets is a brief overnight visit from "Michiru" and Kyon asking her to rig a drawing because history said it happened.
Volume 8: Wandering Shadow is the story that Nagato hijacks, much like she did with Mysterique Sign.
With Editor In Chief, the story based around the Literary Club, the most focus Nagato gets outside the initial setup is a poem that gives a little insight into her character. A poem she wrote, meaning that the only person that really focused on Nagato was, well, Nagato.
Volume 9: The only focus Nagato really gets here that isn't a copy of Editor In Chief is at the "end" of one of the two timelines, when Haruhi finally notices she isn't there. After the Brigade spends almost the entire passage in the clubroom talking to each other.
Please... Yuki totally hijacks Editor in Chief as well. Whole threads have been derailed discussing that poem...
I'd laugh if Slider-tan was an older version of her... :heh:
Been there, done that, shot it down. Miyokichi already looks old for her age, and thus more or less like a high-school freshman. Therefore Kyon would recognize her if she were Slider-tan.
Instead he writes about Miyoko. What a siscon.
That's lolicon. Although, as noted above, she does look mature for her age. Maybe that's Kyon's fetish, mature-bodied girls with loli faces... Certainly explains the Mikuru Fascination...

... and Mikuru is his TARDIS...
Ah-haaaa... I see what you did there, you dirty-minded bastich...

[Kaisos Erranon]

That's lolicon. Although, as noted above, she does look mature for her age. Maybe that's Kyon's fetish, mature-bodied girls with loli faces... Certainly explains the Mikuru Fascination...

It's not that he's into girls younger than him... he's into girls that will treat him like how he thinks an older brother should be treated.

Recall his constant "I WISH MIYOKO WAS MY SISTER INSTEAD" whenever he brings her up.

If he ever started dating a girl like that, you can be he'd somehow get her to call him "Onii-chan".

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Please... Yuki totally hijacks Editor in Chief as well. Whole threads have been derailed discussing that poem...

A character can't hijack a story that was seemingly meant for them in the first place.

Ah-haaaa... I see what you did there, you dirty-minded bastich...

Why do people always assume the worst in me? The only way Kyon is capable of time travel is via Mikuru. :heh:

[Ithekro]

He should date Mei Sunohara than if he want to be called "Onii-chan".

[Kaisos Erranon]

He should date Mei Sunohara than if he want to be called "Onii-chan".

THAT'S who should voice Miyoko. Yukari Tamura.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

... only if I get to make befriending jokes...

[Kaisos Erranon]

Right, most people here associate her with Nanoha... I associate her with Rika Furude instead... :heh:

[Ice Block]

Been there, done that, shot it down. Miyokichi already looks old for her age, and thus more or less like a high-school freshman. Therefore Kyon would recognize her if she were Slider-tan.Good point. Though, can we take into account how much a teen's face changes in a span of one year? For example, I have a younger sister, and her face has changed considerably since the past year(s). Though this might not be a good example, going from 10 -> 11 -> 12.

And on this matter, one thought I haven't seen mentioned is how Slider-tan could be slider!Haruhi with a few different chromosome pairs. What, with her Haruhi-like interest in the SOS-dan's activities... but maybe that's pushing it too far. :heh:

[Ithekro]

Soooo, she'll go "Mii~, Say my name, Onii-chan."

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Right, most people here associate her with Nanoha... I associate her with Rika Furude instead... :heh:

I find it slightly amusing that you'd be willing to give a seiyuu you associate with Rika... to a character named "Miyoko." :p

[Miss Meow]

srsly.. i really hate that kyon guy

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Okay, I'll be the first, third and probably sixth person to say something bad about Kyon... but... any reason why you really hate him? :heh:

[Miss Meow]

Okay, I'll be the first, third and probably sixth person to say something bad about Kyon... but... any reason why you really hate him? :heh:

he talks to much
and he is a pervert
and i rlly hate him for not liking haruhi
dats all :heh:

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

He likes Haruhi. He just doesn't want to admit it. :heh:

[Triple_R]

Wow...dude... You need to a) not take things so seriously and b) learn to read in context. Half of those examples you gave you're completely misreading...

I know quite well how to read in context. I was very careful to put those narration quotes in context - even going out of my way to point out how one came after the "pour hot tea on Kyon" command by Haruhi.

And how can you not take this narration seriously? His narration is almost constantly like this in Novel 2... his profuse complimenting narration over Mikuru being about the only break from it. A snarky comment every now and then can be a simple joke. Constant snark is a bit more than that, imo.

Look, you're free to like Kyon and interpret his snark differently. But I don't see where the way that I'm taking his narration is wrong. And, clearly, there are people who are fans of this series and don't like Kyon.

Myself? I see his good points... and his bad.

[Ithekro]

Considering that his narration of the movie was almost constant snark after the first five minutes leads one this think he's venting his mind and yet Haruhi doesn't notice ("Praise me and my film which I have directed").

[Heatth]

I think you took some lines too serious, Triple. Like the flower metaphor. However, I see your point and agree wit then. Kyon seens to be conseiderable more irrited then usual in Sighs. Which is quite comprehensible.

[Triple_R]

I think you took some lines too serious, Triple. Like the flower metaphor. However, I see your point and agree wit then. Kyon seens to be conseiderable more irrited then usual in Sighs. Which is quite comprehensible.

Well, I don't seriously think that Kyon thinks that Haruhi is infertile (going by the flower metaphor)... I was joking there. :heh: All the flower metaphor shows is that, at this point in the novels, Kyon really likes Mikuru... and doesn't like Haruhi very much.

Honestly, folks, any reading of Novel 2 that doesn't presuppose that Kyon is constantly lying to himself has to reach the conclusion that at this point, Kyon doesn't like Haruhi. You simply don't think this way about people that you like; not constantly, at least.

[Solais]

But it's Volume 2 guys. Y'know, the "worst" of the series. Of course even the best characters act the worst in it. :heh:

[OkamiNoKaze]

Here's a question I always had, Is his narration part of the film they make, or is it in his head?

[Heatth]

Well, I don't seriously think that Kyon thinks that Haruhi is infertile (going by the flower metaphor)... I was joking there. :heh: All the flower metaphor shows is that, at this point in the novels, Kyon really likes Mikuru... and doesn't like Haruhi very much.

No, it is not about the infertile part :heh: I would say these metaphor only prooves he likes Mikuru, but not he dislake Haruhi. He says he don't like her pretty much every book, yet we knows this is not true (because how he acts in pretty much every book).

Honestly, folks, any reading of Novel 2 that doesn't presuppose that Kyon is constantly lying to himself has to reach the conclusion that at this point, Kyon doesn't like Haruhi. You simply don't think this way about people that you like; not constantly, at least.

I agree with you here. I would say, however, he is/was annoyed/angry with Haruhi at that momment. She was being a bitch during this book anyway. However, ist not like he hated her before (he acts natural at book3 and really seens to like her at the end of Melancholly). He also forgived her after Live A Live (that happened just after).

[Triple_R]

No, it is not about the infertile part :heh: I would say these metaphor only prooves he likes Mikuru, but not he dislake Haruhi. He says he don't like her pretty much every book, yet we knows this is not true (because how he acts in pretty much every book).

Kyon, imo, has a love/hate relationship with Haruhi. She both annoys him, and excites him. He tends to focus on the former... but every now and then, he'll admit the latter, at least to himself.

I personally prefer this interpretation of his character over the idea that he's almost constantly lying to himself.

But, I won't deny that the "constantly lying to himself" theory is more popular within the Haruhi fandom. I respect that it's the dominant theory even if I don't quite buy into it myself.


I agree with you here. I would say, however, he is/was annoyed/angry with Haruhi at that momment. She was being a bitch during this book anyway. However, ist not like he hated her before (he acts natural at book3 and really seens to like her at the end of Melancholly). He also forgived her after Live A Live (that happened just after).

But it's Volume 2 guys. Y'know, the "worst" of the series. Of course even the best characters act the worst in it. :heh:

These quotes are both true. It's true that his narration is at its harshest in Sighs.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Kyon's a male tsundere in regards to Haruhi. Let's just leave it at that. :heh:

[Kaisos Erranon]

Soooo, she'll go "Mii~, Say my name, Onii-chan."

Best girlfriend ever.

I find it slightly amusing that you'd be willing to give a seiyuu you associate with Rika... to a character named "Miyoko." :p

...Dammit, I should have realized that.

But it's Volume 2 guys. Y'know, the "worst" of the series. Of course even the best characters act the worst in it. :heh:

At least the anime has made it a hell of a lot better.

[Triple_R]

Kyon's a male tsundere in regards to Haruhi. Let's just leave it at that. :heh:

That's a much more succinct way of putting it than how I did, I'll admit. :heh:

Yes, Kyon's a male tsundere. That describes his relationship with Haruhi perfectly, imo.

Outside of his relations with Haruhi, he's a pretty regular guy.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

... Hence the "in regards to Haruhi." :heh:

[Triple_R]

... Hence the "in regards to Haruhi." :heh:

I know. I was just making sure you knew that I was in complete agreement with you. ;)

I also want to add that the anime does an awesome job (thus far) of softening both Haruhi and Kyon in Sighs. They're way more likable (or, well, less unlikeable, at least) in the anime version of the story than in the novel. I have pretty much no problem whatsoever with how Kyon has come across in this year's episodes 10 through 12.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

... *sigh* Let's just hope they don't throw it all away when they finally get around to Disappearance... the inevitable loss of narration is gonna kill his character as it stands. :heh:

[Triple_R]

... *sigh* Let's just hope they don't throw it all away when they finally get around to Disappearance... the inevitable loss of narration is gonna kill his character as it stands. :heh:

Depends on how many episodes they devote to it. If they go with five or more, then I definitely think that almost all of Kyon's narration for that novel will be retained. And I agree with you, that narration is essential there; otherwise, a lot of what Kyon does may seem inexplicable and impulsive.

If they go with four or less episodes though, or with a movie... :heh:

Of course this is all presuming that they will animate Disappearance at some point. I honestly still have doubts about that...

[Heatth]

Kyon, imo, has a love/hate relationship with Haruhi. She both annoys him, and excites him. He tends to focus on the former... but every now and then, he'll admit the latter, at least to himself.

I personally prefer this interpretation of his character over the idea that he's almost constantly lying to himself.

But, I won't deny that the "constantly lying to himself" theory is more popular within the Haruhi fandom. I respect that it's the dominant theory even if I don't quite buy into it myself.

Hmmm, I think you are right here. As Kogetsu said, a male tsundere. However, he did lie a lot to himself about how he likes supernatural stuff. He acts, and narrates, as he really don't care about it. Yet, he have a big passionate monologue to Haruhi saying how their original world is cool because of that stuff. And there is Disappearance(where I agree with you two, btw, the narration is important).

Seeing that lies, is not that hard to conclude he also lies about Haruhi. I do think you hate/love explanation fit better, however. There is more line of him being harsh to Haruhi then to him being uninterested about weird stuff.

[Triple_R]

Hmmm, I think you are right here. As Kogetsu said, a male tsundere. However, he did lie a lot to himself about how he likes supernatural stuff. He acts, and narrates, as he really don't care about it. Yet, he have a big passionate monologue to Haruhi saying how their original world is cool because of that stuff. And there is Disappearance(where I agree with you two, btw, the narration is important).

Seeing that lies, is not that hard to conclude he also lies about Haruhi. I do think you hate/love explanation fit better, however. There is more line of him being harsh to Haruhi then to him being uninterested about weird stuff.

He lies to himself a bit about Haruhi, no doubt. And he softens on her over time, imo.

[quigonkenny]

I know quite well how to read in context. I was very careful to put those narration quotes in context - even going out of my way to point out how one came after the "pour hot tea on Kyon" command by Haruhi.

And how can you not take this narration seriously? His narration is almost constantly like this in Novel 2... his profuse complimenting narration over Mikuru being about the only break from it. A snarky comment every now and then can be a simple joke. Constant snark is a bit more than that, imo.

Look, you're free to like Kyon and interpret his snark differently. But I don't see where the way that I'm taking his narration is wrong. And, clearly, there are people who are fans of this series and don't like Kyon.

Myself? I see his good points... and his bad.
If you're taking his snarky narration seriously at all, you're taking things too seriously. It's snark. Its whole point is to not be taken seriously... And way to try to distract from my point by attempting (unsuccessfully, btw) to paint me as a rabid Kyon fan. My difference in "interpreting his snark" (not quite what I was talking about, thus further proving my context point) nor anything else I said in that post has anything to do with me liking Kyon (or not). Few things bug me more than when people think that kind of approach helps an argument...

As for missing the context... Okay, I didn't have time to go into detail earlier, but...

"I would really like to drill a hole in Haruhi's head and replace the contents within. Sadly, I would find nothing inside and can only sigh. "

______________________________

Now, granted, this was brought on by the infamous "Spill hot tea on Kyon" scene. :heh:

Still, it always irks me when I see Kyon pretty much say that Haruhi is brainless... because it's patently false. Her excellence in school marks alone proves that. She's also a frequently eloquent speaker.

I don't mind Kyon calling Haruhi "crazy" or "eccentric" or "weird" or anything like that... but she's not dumb, and Kyon ought to know better, imo. This is far from the only example of him directly speaking lowly of Haruhi's intelligence.
He's not saying she's "dumb" (I assume you mean specifically "ignorant") or "brainless" ("not intelligent") here. He's saying she doesn't think. This is what I mean by context. She is very obviously in this scene (the infamous "spill hot tea on Kyon scene" as you put it) NOT thinking, specifically about the repercussions. It would not make sense for him to call her dumb or brainless in this scene, but stupid? Absolutely.

Get a load of this comparison between Haruhi and Mikuru... :heh:

"If Asahina-san was a white rose blooming in the wild, then Haruhi would be a special breed of rose that doesn't even blossom and is full of thorns; it probably doesn't even have seeds."

__________________________________________________ __


I guess that Kyon thinks that Haruhi is infertile, going by the lack of seeds comment... I have to admit, that's a funny line if you like strong satire... but whew, it's still really harsh. It's an epic insult if Kyon actually says it.
Again, not what he's talking about. He is suggesting that she has no redeeming qualities in comparison with Mikuru. It's as much deredere Mikuru action as snark. Haruhi's just the unlucky point of comparison.

Now, some short zingers... (my comments for each is in paranthesis).

"If people want to achieve time travel, just put Haruhi on a spaceship. Since she probably wouldn't give a damn about the Theory of Relativity anyway.

As I mentioned this to Nagato, all that the silent alien said was, "Your opinion may be correct."

For Nagato, this is very meaningful. For others, Suzumiya Haruhi is a joke."

(Again - this is just an untrue snark; Haruhi clearly cares about the Theory of Relativity as per what she said in Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody - how is Kyon not remembering that? Mind you, how is Yuki not remembering it? :twitch: And the loathing that Kyon is displaying for Haruhi is just oozing off of the "Haruhi is a joke" line)


"There used to be a saying, "There's nothing more terrifying than not needing to pay." The thing is, Haruhi doesn't seem to care. If someone knows something that would make her terrified, please, do let me know. " (So... I guess Kyon would like to terrify Haruhi...)
On the first one, that might be an inside joke from the author. While BLR was written, was published (in Sneaker), and is set before Sigh, when it comes to novel readers, BLR (and Haruhi's Tanabata-fueled Relativity-fest) will be encountered after Sigh.

Of course maybe it's just Kyon (and Yuki) acknowledging Haruhi's questionable continuity when it comes to actually obeying the laws of physics...

On the second one, I don't see how anyone can read this as Kyon maliciously wishing for Haruhi to be terrified. Going back to one of the ones above, Haruhi does not acknowledge the repercussions of her actions at all. She has very little to non-existent self-control. And as proven by the end of Melancholy, her brain is out to lunch when it comes to situations where she should rightly be scared out of her mind. Does he wish for Haruhi to encounter a situation where she quits with the bullheadedness and stops to think about her surroundings? Absolutely. The series is full of examples where he as much as says this. Does he specifically wish for her to be terrified? Probably not, but would her being scared put her in a situation where she has to take stock of her situation? Most likely. Keep in mind too that "terrified" is a very strong term, and, this being a translation, might not be connotatively accurate. "Scared" or even "unsettled" could be more accurate. I don't know.

[ac195]

On the second one, I don't see how anyone can read this as Kyon maliciously wishing for Haruhi to be terrified. Going back to one of the ones above, Haruhi does not acknowledge the repercussions of her actions at all. She has very little to non-existent self-control. And as proven by the end of Melancholy, her brain is out to lunch when it comes to situations where she should rightly be scared out of her mind. Does he wish for Haruhi to encounter a situation where she quits with the bullheadedness and stops to think about her surroundings? Absolutely. The series is full of examples where he as much as says this. Does he specifically wish for her to be terrified? Probably not, but would her being scared put her in a situation where she has to take stock of her situation? Most likely. Keep in mind too that "terrified" is a very strong term, and, this being a translation, might not be connotatively accurate. "Scared" or even "unsettled" could be more accurate. I don't know.

I didn't think this needed to be explained... I guess some people are just dense. Still, nicely done.

As for being truly terrified, Haruhi has already experienced this once. Kyon's epic adventure where he challenged the mighty stairwell with nothing but his face should come to mind.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

... And here I was, worried that Nagato's thread would be the one where problems would arise. :heh:

[Triple_R]

... And here I was, worried that Nagato's thread would be the one where problems would arise. :heh:

Thanks for the advice.

[Full Metal Coast]

ever since i started reading the series i have always thought that Haruhi definately like Kyon but Kyon on the other hand is extremely reluctant to even admit to himself that he sees Haruhi nothing more than a burden that he has to look after but in reality actually does have stronger feeling for her.

i have also thought that Kyon is way more melancholic than Haruhi for the facts that he himself hadd all the same expectations of Haruhi but accepted the fate that he is just another human and nother extrodianry will ever happen which is the complete opposite of haruhi and for that Kyon is jealous in a way that even though he is surrounded by all the things he wanted as a child still cannot see the fun side like Haruhi and for that reason he acts the way he does.

[sacundim]

The things that really strike me about Kyon's relationship toward Haruhi are really the following two:


When Haruhi is happy and energetic, Kyon is genuinely annoyed at how she acts.
But on the other hand, when Haruhi is sad or troubled, Kyon often seems to be genuinely concerned about her.


Some examples of the latter:



When Haruhi tells Kyon the story about baseball game by the tracks, Kyon makes an effort to give her a good answer. His failure to do so saddens him.
In the anime version of Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody, when Haruhi makes her "16 years, that's a long time" comment, Kyon also seems to catch her sad mood.
In the anime version of Live Alive, after Haruhi talks with the ENOZ members, Kyon notices that Haruhi goes into a bad mood. At lunch break, he wolfs down his meal extra fast, and then, notwithstanding his suspiciously specific denial, he goes looking for her.



However, this is not something that Kyon does exclusively toward Haruhi. He is also often concerned about the emotional well-being of Asahina and Nagato, as seen in situations like:


His effort to comfort Asahina when she takes him on the mission to save the life of the boy who will invent time travel.
When he asks Nagato how she's doing, in "Endless Eight."
When he threatens the IDTE to protect Nagato.



To me it really seems like Kyon seriously wants Haruhi to mellow out and treat other people better, wants Nagato to open up a bit more and acknowledge her emotions, and wants Asahina to develop more confidence and self-esteem like her older self (though he's still unnerved by Asahina (big), which complicates matters).

As for his endless fawning over Asahina and snarking over Haruhi, I tend to dismiss those because both are really just words, and really superficial. The thing that should count the most toward how we judge his relationships is how he acts toward the other girls, and not a bunch of words that he never acts upon. And I think that's one of the most interesting things about Kyon as a character and narrator—he talks and talks and talks, which tends to drown out lots of small things that are really important, and often don't even get a mention.

[17th_warrior]

He's an altruist in such cases , but still he's not as selfless as it can appear to us.

[Triple_R]

To me it really seems like Kyon seriously wants Haruhi to mellow out and treat other people better, wants Nagato to open up a bit more and acknowledge her emotions, and wants Asahina to develop more confidence and self-esteem like her older self (though he's still unnerved by Asahina (big), which complicates matters).


Yes, I'd agree with that. It makes a fair bit of sense in all three cases, as it would make all three more well-rounded people, it could be argued.

[17th_warrior]

What about Itsuki? Doesn't he care about him at all??

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Nope! Where have you been? :p

[Sho-tan]

He wants Itsuki to get the hell out of his face.

[17th_warrior]

Come on, deep inside Kyon wants to change him too, he just doesn't know how,yet he tries so much,but the result...there's no result.

[Triple_R]

What about Itsuki? Doesn't he care about him at all??

He probably wants Itsuki to drop his facade. That, and he'd probably like it if Itsuki stopped hitting on him. ;) Of course, those two are pretty much one and the same unless you think that Itsuki is truly gay.

[Full Metal Coast]

He probably wants Itsuki to drop his facade. That, and he'd probably like it if Itsuki stopped hitting on him. ;) Of course, those two are pretty much one and the same unless you think that Itsuki is truly gay.

definately agree with that. but in the near future i would like to see kyon hit itsuki. i think he deserves it.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

I'd love to see Kyon and Koizumi duke it out. Winner gets... wait, is there anything they'd actually fight over? :heh:

[Triple_R]

I'd love to see Kyon and Koizumi duke it out. Winner gets... wait, is there anything they'd actually fight over? :heh:

Going by this subform, it's pretty obvious what (or rather, who) they'd fight over, don't you think? ;) :heh:

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

If you mean Haruhi, neither would initiate a fight over her... Kyon tries to maintain the whole "I can't stand Haruhi" thing, while Koizumi knows that any problems that arise around her inevitably mean problems for him later, as well.

[Triple_R]

If you mean Haruhi, neither would initiate a fight over her... Kyon tries to maintain the whole "I can't stand Haruhi" thing, while Koizumi knows that any problems that arise around her inevitably mean problems for him later, as well.

Well, I'm just saying that if, say, a powerful entity (let's use Q from Star Trek here) was to set-up a fight between the two of them, and was to tell each of them "Winner of this fight gets a happy Haruhi as his life partner for the rest of his life!", I could see them seriously fighting for that.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

... "Happy Haruhi" generally means trouble for anyone around her.

Except Tsuruya, she seems to be immune to her antics. :heh:

[17th_warrior]

Sometimes he's too soft-hearted towards Haruhi,but bound being the guardian of the balance he has to restrain himself.
I'd like more tense moments like the recent one in the Sighs.

[ashez2ashes]

Well, I'm just saying that if, say, a powerful entity (let's use Q from Star Trek here) was to set-up a fight between the two of them, and was to tell each of them "Winner of this fight gets a happy Haruhi as his life partner for the rest of his life!", I could see them seriously fighting for that.

Eh, I suppose we could see Itsuki and Kyon fight if Haruhi decided the S.O.S brigade need to enter a martial arts tournament. Then Kyon could feel much shame after getting beat up by him. I could defintily see Itsuki knowing Judo moves and thrashing Kyon. :heh:

[Sute443]

Eh, I suppose we could see Itsuki and Kyon fight if Haruhi decided the S.O.S brigade need to enter a martial arts tournament. Then Kyon could feel much shame after getting beat up by him. I could defintily see Itsuki knowing Judo moves and thrashing Kyon. :heh:

Have you forgotten that Haruhi wants to see Kyon do cool stuff? She really wants to be impressed by him. If Itsuki thrashed Kyon like that then Haruhi would probably be pretty upset. Itsuki would have to throw the fight.

Unless Haruhi feels like dressing up like a nurse. Then she might be okay with it.

[Jonbob0008]

Itsuki would pwn Kyon, unless he did throw the fight (or if Kyon cheated somehow). We all saw how Itsuki held Kyon's arm during the last episode. He's considerably stronger than Kyon, and he probably has some level of combat training, too. Either way, a fight between them seems unlikely.

Besides, Haruhi doesn't need Kyon to be a badass. She need him as a man-slave. :p

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

She doesn't need Kyon to be a badass, she wants him to be one. That way, his status as man-slave is much sweeter. :p

[ashez2ashes]

She doesn't need Kyon to be a badass, she wants him to be one. That way, his status as man-slave is much sweeter. :p

Heh, you know on second thought.... in the end it probably wouldn't matter whose really strongest... Yuki would give them all body controlling arm/ankle bands or something and they'd suddenly all become SUPER MARTIAL ARTS MASTERS <tm>. Kyon would win or lose based soley on whether Haruhi wanted to see him do something cool or nurse him back to health. :heh:

[GDB]

Kyon would win or lose based soley on whether Haruhi wanted to see him do something cool or nurse him back to health. :heh:

So in other words, he'd make it to the finals and then get clobbered. This way he comes off as amazing, and she be proud of how close he got, all while nursing him back and knowing that he isn't quite the best.

Using the thinking back from Dragonball, "If they think there's someone stronger out there, they'll continue to push themselves" or something like that. That's right, I just compared Kyon to Goku.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Don't be silly. Kyon is Krillin. :p

[GDB]

Also works, since at that time Roshi was speaking of both Goku and Krillin. So that makes Haruhi Goku, I suppose.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

... Now I want to see a golden-haired Haruhi. :heh:

[quigonkenny]

... Now I want to see a golden-haired Haruhi. :heh:

INB4 Photoshop.

[Teh_Ping]

^Be4 golden hair its over 9000... after that ITS OFF THE CHARTS!

At least Krillin doesnt get grabbed by the collar or forced by Goku to do any weird things. (But from a certain series called haruhi-chan it seems that everyone in SOS-dan can do a kamehameha...)

And about the fight, ashez2ashes, this is so gonna be Haruhi-chan 9 all over again lol. We noe Kyon can fight against a truck anyway:rolleyes:

PS: Wonder if anyone thought of a super fusion between Haruhi and Kyon...

[Tornadium]

ever since i started reading the series i have always thought that Haruhi definately like Kyon but Kyon on the other hand is extremely reluctant to even admit to himself that he sees Haruhi nothing more than a burden that he has to look after but in reality actually does have stronger feeling for her.





Kyon by nature is an unreliable narrator. However at key points he actually admits what he really thinks. It's obvious Kyon cares deeply about Haruhi, The problem is he is at odds with his feelings for her and her eccentric nature.

For the majority of the time he tries to focus on the negative points that Haruhi has, Yet he is called out on it time and time again in the novels especially by Itsuki. Think of it this way, Kyon doesn't know what he wants to do with regards to Haruhi. Although in Book 9 he FINALLY admits that Haruhi likes him. By this point he is also getting closer to Haruhi so who knows





To me it really seems like Kyon seriously wants Haruhi to mellow out and treat other people better, wants Nagato to open up a bit more and acknowledge her emotions, and wants Asahina to develop more confidence and self-esteem like her older self (though he's still unnerved by Asahina (big), which complicates matters).




It's pretty well known that he wants Haruhi to mellow out and have an ordinary life, Yet he himself admits that he loves Haruhi's weirdness and eccentricities. Kyon is pretty much the most indecisive person in the history of the world.

You are definately correct with the points regarding Yuki and Mikuru...Haruhi we don't really know what his reasons are. They could sway either way because Kyon is just unreliable by nature.



No, it is not about the infertile part :heh: I would say these metaphor only prooves he likes Mikuru, but not he dislake Haruhi. He says he don't like her pretty much every book, yet we knows this is not true (because how he acts in pretty much every book).




With regards to Mikuru, She is basically Kyon's "White Knight" crush. A girl who is fragile and needs protecting. The reasoning behind him saying he likes Mikuru and dislikes Haruhi is simply because of the huge differences in both characters. Haruhi by nature does things which normal people don't do. It's obvious he would complain about it. Whereas Mikuru is the sweet kind innocent girl so obviously she is going to get a lot more praise.

The really key point i think is when Kyon has somthing GOOD to say about Haruhi, it usually carries more significance than the rest of the compliments to any of the characters combined.

[freakonboard]

Kyon's a male tsundere in regards to Haruhi. Let's just leave it at that. :heh:

Quote for emphasis.

[Tornadium]

Quote for emphasis.

Haruhi and Kyon are both very mild Tsunderes.

It's very rarely shown in full light but it is definately there.

[Takamura Mamoru]

I don't think he wants Mikuru to change, at all. She panders to his fetishes, after all.

He even said she "only needs to remain herself" at one point.

[Tornadium]

I don't think he wants Mikuru to change, at all. She panders to his fetishes, after all.

He even said she "only needs to remain herself" at one point.


That entire monologue by Kyon has many different interpretations.

We still don't know exactly what he means by it as a whole.

[Teh_Ping]

^Could also be hinting at what's to come at the future as well. Koizumi did mention that the Organisation was wary of Mikuru's organisation. And the device that Mikuru uses, isnt it some sort of time plane destroyer as well?

Kyon as a 'mild tsundere', except that his feelings for haruhi werent exactly romantic ones, otherwise it will fit perfectly.

[Tornadium]

Kyon as a 'mild tsundere', except that his feelings for haruhi werent exactly romantic ones, otherwise it will fit perfectly.

Well you can't really say they arn't romantic, The feelings Kyon feels can be extremely hard to catagorise since they seem to change on a daily basis and the method which he expressed them also changes.

[typhonsentra]

Where in book 9 does he admit to recognizing Haruhi's feelings?

I only read the early, very rough draft of the translation way back when but I remember him denying until the very end during Koizumi's interrogation.

[Teh_Ping]

Well you can't really say they arn't romantic, The feelings Kyon feels can be extremely hard to catagorise since they seem to change on a daily basis and the method which he expressed them also changes.

Well, i did say it wasnt exactly romantic, but you're right, its hard to categorise these feelings becoz its more like a mix, considering that for almost everything haruhi has done, there is Kyon behind her, even if his approach is somewhat...

Typhonsentra, I do remember seeing that part when I was skimming through like god knows how long ago, but kinda forgotten which part as well. Maybe u should try baka-tsuki?

[Tornadium]

Well, i did say it wasnt exactly romantic, but you're right, its hard to categorise these feelings becoz its more like a mix, considering that for almost everything haruhi has done, there is Kyon behind her, even if his approach is somewhat...




Yea i getcha, I was just pointing it out. Kyon will stick by Haruhi to the end, He realises that himself in Sighs



And in Disapperance even moreso



A LOT of the hints in the novel pointed towards romance with maybe a few small arrows...The anime however seems to be putting up Huge Vegas Lighting shows pointing towards Romance though.

Where in book 9 does he admit to recognizing Haruhi's feelings?

I only read the early, very rough draft of the translation way back when but I remember him denying until the very end during Koizumi's interrogation.



It was when Koizumi and Kyon were talking about Sasaki and that someone would mind if Kyon started to get close to Sasaki again due to Jealousy. Koizumi says somthing to do with Haruhi being unable to interpret the different types of Love between people and she is Jealous of Kyon's relationship with Haruhi and that she cares for Kyon to which he says in a monologue " I knew it".

Somthing like that at least.

I'll dig it up

[Tabasco]

I think this is what you're looking for.

------------
"From my viewpoint, if we attribute everything to Suzumiya-san's jealousy of Sasaki-san,
everything will be much easier to understand."
I am afraid I have to rebut this statement. I did not say the following for anyone else, but
for the good of Haruhi......
"She was the one who mentioned that love relationships are a kind of mental illness!"
"Then I shall ask you, do you think Suzumiya-san's psychological skills would be able to see
through all the different kinds of love between males and females?"
Definitely not.
"I thought so too. Suzumiya-san thinks she understands it very well even though she
doesn't. Her maturity does not vary much compared to girls of the same age as her. From
here, you can see that she is actually a very normal teenage girl, except that she just isn't
frank enough with herself."
I don't think you are qualified enough to say that. From my perspective, you are someone
who isn't very frank as well.
"Really?"
Koizumi stopped his smile that resembled that of an ancient mask, while he stroked his
cheeks as if acting.
"It seems my skills are still not enough, you actually saw through it so easily."
He spread out his two hands and shook his head.
"If we are to analyze this, then we can say that after Suzumiya-san found out that you have
a friend that she doesn't know of from the past, and had an emotion that could not be
described. Although she might have considered that such an incident may take place, she
hadn't really seen it happening till now. Such an emotion cannot be described as just
jealousy, but an emotion that is more primitive and natural. I will put it another way if you
still cannot comprehend. You ought to have at least a few old friends. This, Suzumiya-san
can understand. Even if there are any female friends, there is nothing to be surprised
about. But having Sasaki-san proclaim herself that you are a very close friend of hers is
something that is unexpected. Even though I already knew of her existence, it still comes as
quite a surprise to me as well."
"I understa....... no, I totally do not understand."
"Because Suzumiya-san had always been in a state of loneliness throughout middle school,
the phrase 'close friend' may have been quite a shock to her."
"Didn't she want it that way herself? Where she would be 'aloof from worldly affairs'?"Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume9 Full Text 38
"There should still be a bit of shock. For example, if I have a friend of the opposite gender
whom you do not know of suddenly appearing in front of you, how would you feel?"
"Do you really have one?"
I lifted my body outwards while asking that. Even if this guy has a girlfriend behind my
back, it wouldn't be surprising at all.
Koizumi gave a bitter smile.
"This example is not very good. I should not use myself as an example. So if Asahina-san
had a very close male friend in the past, and they are still rather close even till now?"
Perhaps I would not feel too good. But......
"This can't be quite possible. Asahina-san and Nagato are not here to play or sightsee."
I think that it would be better if they were able to unwind a bit more and have fun instead.
And Asahina-san's past is actually the future that is very far from us isn't it?
"This is only an assumption. What if it is true, what would you think? There should be a
strange feeling that could not be described isn't there? It isn't jealousy, nor is it confusion.
First, Asahina-san did not pay any special attention to the guy, and on the surface, it is as if
there are no special feelings between them. Even you yourself cannot figure out what is
happening. Thus, questioning yourself about that aimlessly would be pretty stupid. And so
attempting to forget such an incident is the best way to go about it. And now, you can try
applying the example of Asahina-san and yourself to you and Suzumiya-san."

--------------------

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Please use spoiler tags for that. Not only because it's an actual spoiler, but because it's also a wall of text. :heh:

[sacundim]

I second the spoiler tags. Also, more space between the paragraphs would be better.

Anyway, we've discussed Kyon's awareness of Haruhi's feelings toward him a few weeks ago. This is the link to my post on the topic (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2607671&postcount=36), but to summarize: Kyon's narration shows well before novel 9 that he knows that Haruhi's got feelings for him, and that he's concerned about what she might do if she gets jealous over him. His denial of this to Koizumi is just obfuscating obliviousness.

I must say that I think that this thread has recently taken a bit too much of a Kyon x Haruhi shipping bent. The way I see it, we've got to take Kyon's failure to pursue Haruhi at face value (more so considering the spoiler above) and just say that she just annoys him too much. I'd say that so far in the story, Kyon would prefer a relationship with Asahina more than with any of the other girls—and the relationship would fail, on many grounds.

More generally, I think that Kyon and the three girls would have to develop and mature more for any of the pairings to work. We're not going to see any couples in this series until we see some more important character development happen.

[Kaisos Erranon]

I must say that I think that this thread has recently taken a bit too much of a Kyon x Haruhi shipping bent. The way I see it, we've got to take Kyon's failure to pursue Haruhi at face value (more so considering the spoiler above) and just say that she just annoys him too much. I'd say that so far in the story, Kyon would prefer a relationship with Asahina more than with any of the other girls—and the relationship would fail, on many grounds.

Taking anything Kyon says about how he feels at face value is an exercise in futility.

Case in point:

Sasaki.

Kyon tells the readers he has no feelings for her other than as a "not close" friend, but...

He says in an earlier book that he "thinks about her once every few days". Is that normal for a person you didn't even consider to be "close" to, for someone you haven't contacted in over a year?

And his dream sequence/flashback later in Vol. 9 reeks to me of a guy simply trying to impress a girl he's crushing on... which, note, is the same way he behaves towards Haruhi the first time he tries talking to her.

I view the whole thing with Sasaki as Kyon being emo about failing to enter a relationship with her and thus refusing to contact her again, since he get couldn't what he wanted.

Also note that Haruhi and Sasaki are physically similar.

Just food for thought.

Two other things: a) KyonxMikuru has pretty much been impossible from the beginning, and if you don't believe that Kyon, at the very least, cares about Haruhi a hell of a lot, you need to read Vol. 4 again.

[Heatth]

Taking anything Kyon says about how he feels at face value is an exercise in futility.

Case in point:

Sasaki.

Kyon tells the readers he has no feelings for her other than as a "not close" friend, but...

He says in an earlier book that he "thinks about her once every few days". Is that normal for a person you didn't even consider to be "close" to, for someone you haven't contacted in over a year?

And his dream sequence/flashback later in Vol. 9 reeks to me of a guy simply trying to impress a girl he's crushing on... which, note, is the same way he behaves towards Haruhi the first time he tries talking to her.

I view the whole thing with Sasaki as Kyon being emo about failing to enter a relationship with her and thus refusing to contact her again, since he get couldn't what he wanted.

Also note that Haruhi and Sasaki are physically similar.

Just food for thought.

I totally agree with you.
The 'not close yet thinking about her every few days' sound similar to when he tells Taniguchi (in the first book) he is not remotelly interested in Haruhi, but spend the first moth of his High School Life paying attention in her odditys and asking Taniguchi about her. I really don't trust Kyon here.

Btw, I never have noticied the similaritys between Kyon first talk with Sasaki and his first talk with Haruhi. You are absolutelly right. Nice thinking.

The only problem with this kind of thinking is why he only call her by her surname, not by her name, like she does with Haruhi (pretty much since they first met).

[freakonboard]

I totally agree with you.
The 'not close yet thinking about her every few days' sound similar to when he tells Taniguchi (in the first book) he is not remotelly interested in Haruhi, but spend the first moth of his High School Life paying attention in her odditys and asking Taniguchi about her. I really don't trust Kyon here.

Btw, I never have noticied the similaritys between Kyon first talk with Sasaki and his first talk with Haruhi. You are absolutelly right. Nice thinking.

The only problem with this kind of thinking is why he only call her by her surname, not by her name, like she does with Haruhi (pretty much since they first met).

IIRC Kyon didn't call Haruhi by her given name until after the Haruhi's dream event in the last part of Melancholy.

http://image.ohozaa.com/th/hitsuji].the.melancholy.of.haruhi.suzumiya.06..the.melanch oly.of.haruhi.suzumiya.vi.h264.vorbis.mkv_snapshot _20.12_2009.09.16_17.00.52].jpg (http://image.ohozaa.com/ih/hitsuji%5D.the.melancholy.of.haruhi.suzumiya.06..t he.melancholy.of.haruhi.suzumiya.vi.h264.vorbis.mk v_snapshot_20.12_2009.09.16_17.00.52%5D.jpg)

My point is at that time he's pretty sure that Haruhi has some feelings for him.

[Heatth]

IIRC Kyon didn't call Haruhi by her given name until after the Haruhi's dream event in the last part of Melancholy.


My point is at that time he's pretty sure that Haruhi has some feelings for him.

Are you sure? I don't ever remember he caling her 'Suzumiya' either.

Btw, there is something very wrong with the link of that images.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Kyon pretty much used "Haruhi" from the start. :heh:

Tanigawa never came up with a given name for Sasaki. If he did, Kyon probably would've mentioned it during the scene where Haruhi and her met. The point of the scene was to give Haruhi a rival of sorts, and a girl that's on a first name basis with Kyon would've been a good setup.

At least, that's how I see it. :heh:

[typhonsentra]

No, in actual conversation he indeed started with calling her "Suzumiya", at least when he spoke her name aloud. During the first "Mikuru Rape", he shouted "Su-Suzumiya!". It might be hard to catch but he doesn't start calling her Haruhi to her face until later in the book.

[freakonboard]

Here's screenshot with sub form Melancholy 3 and Baka-Tsuki's translation chapter 5 excerpt.

http://image.ohozaa.com/t9/hitsuji].the.melancholy.of.haruhi.suzumiya.03..the.melanch oly.of.haruhi.suzumiya.iii.h264.vorbis.mkv_snapsho t_18.52_2009.09.16_22.38.16].jpg (http://image.ohozaa.com/i9/hitsuji%5D.the.melancholy.of.haruhi.suzumiya.03..t he.melancholy.of.haruhi.suzumiya.iii.h264.vorbis.m kv_snapshot_18.52_2009.09.16_22.38.16%5D.jpg)
"Say, Suzumiya. Do you know the story of the 'Blue Bird of Happiness'?"


It's common in Japan to call each other by family name, unless they are very close.

[Heatth]

No, in actual conversation he indeed started with calling her "Suzumiya", at least when he spoke her name aloud. During the first "Mikuru Rape", he shouted "Su-Suzumiya!". It might be hard to catch but he doesn't start calling her Haruhi to her face until later in the book.

Here's screenshot with sub form Melancholy 3 and Baka-Tsuki's translation chapter 5 excerpt.

http://image.ohozaa.com/t9/hitsuji].the.melancholy.of.haruhi.suzumiya.03..the.melanch oly.of.haruhi.suzumiya.iii.h264.vorbis.mkv_snapsho t_18.52_2009.09.16_22.38.16].jpg (http://image.ohozaa.com/i9/hitsuji%5D.the.melancholy.of.haruhi.suzumiya.03..t he.melancholy.of.haruhi.suzumiya.iii.h264.vorbis.m kv_snapshot_18.52_2009.09.16_22.38.16%5D.jpg)
"Say, Suzumiya. Do you know the story of the 'Blue Bird of Happiness'?"


It's common in Japan to call each other by family name, unless they are very close.

I see, thank-you you two. Oddly, he sees to reffer to her as 'Haruhi' since the begining. Using 'Suzumiya' only few times, whn directly speaking to her. This might be why I get confused.

This also open a new question. Is the narration really his toughts? Or he is telling/writing it from the future?


Tanigawa never came up with a given name for Sasaki. If he did, Kyon probably would've mentioned it during the scene where Haruhi and her met. The point of the scene was to give Haruhi a rival of sorts, and a girl that's on a first name basis with Kyon would've been a good setup.

At least, that's how I see it. :heh:

I don't believe it. He came with a name even to Mori and Kimidori. And Kyoko and Suou are less important then she and still have names. I think there is a reason to why Sasaki don't have a name. Maybe Kyon is trying to keep a distance from her, for some reason.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

I don't believe it. He came with a name even to Mori and Kimidori. And Kyoko and Suou are less important then she and still have names. I think there is a reason to why Sasaki don't have a name. Maybe Kyon is trying to keep a distance from her, for some reason.

Kimidori seems to be a regular as of Vol8 and Mori is awesome enough to deserve a full name.
Tachibana is in two main stories, and will be in a third whenever Volume 10 is released.
Suou is connected with a group that has taken down Nagato at least once, so I'd say she's pretty important as well.

[Heatth]

Kimidori seems to be a regular as of Vol8 and Mori is awesome enough to deserve a full name.
Tachibana is in two main stories, and will be in a third whenever Volume 10 is released.
Suou is connected with a group that has taken down Nagato at least once, so I'd say she's pretty important as well.

Tsuruya is both regular and awesome, and yet don't have a name. What she is, however, is irrelevant to the story (at last so far). I don't Say Kyoko and Suou are unimportant, but I don't think they are more then Sasaki. Their debut in the story had less impact, at last.

I beleive Fujiwara don't have a name for a similar purpose. He is important enough but still don't have one. However, seeing how he mentioned the issue it is likely to be a (small)plot point.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Fujiwara lacks a name period. That's an alias. :heh:

[Heatth]

Fujiwara lacks a name period. That's an alias. :heh:

The same could be said to Mikuru, tough, probably. Anyway, he name, or lack of one, is likely to become importnat, as it was mentioned already.

[Khu]

Lol. Stop it you guys seriously XD
Does everything needs spoiler tags?

[Heatth]

Lol. Stop it you guys seriously XD
Does everything needs spoiler tags?


:p

We had already stoped 14 hours ago. :p And the spoiler tags are needed for everything that didn't appear in the anime yet.

[Khu]

Oh...

Carry on then. :D

[Teh_Ping]

Even for a name like Kyon, to spread such a nickname so fast that literally everyone calls him that. Either rumors travel really fast in the Haruhi-verse, or he just edits it out, since he's the narrator, even though he most probably wishes for people to call him by his actual name...

This so feels like yu-gi-oh, where the name of the protagonist is the key to winning the war...

[Tornadium]

Anyway, we've discussed Kyon's awareness of Haruhi's feelings toward him a few weeks ago. This is the link to my post on the topic (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2607671&postcount=36), but to summarize: [SPOILER="Sighs II, Live Alive, novel 9"]Kyon's narration shows well before novel 9 that he knows that Haruhi's got feelings for him, and that he's concerned about what she might do if she gets jealous over him. His denial of this to Koizumi is just obfuscating obliviousness.



Well It's pretty much a given at this point that Kyon knows Haruhi has feelings for him. His denial and subsequent contradictory actions tend to hint at his true feelings rather than those expressed.


I must say that I think that this thread has recently taken a bit too much of a Kyon x Haruhi shipping bent. The way I see it, we've got to take Kyon's failure to pursue Haruhi at face value (more so considering the spoiler above) and just say that she just annoys him too much.


It has nothing to do with Shipping really. The Majority of the Haruhi fanbase agree that this is the most likely Canon ending so therefore we are discussing it. The problem with your arguement is..Well that Kyon doesn't need to pursue Haruhi at face value he already has her in his hands. He just needs to take the chance. Oh and by Book 9 he pretty much admits he loves what Haruhi does and isn't really annoyed by her. Hell he loves the weird things she does.

Even he starts to come around to the idea in Book 9, beforehand he would never even admit it. It's character development really.


I'd say that so far in the story, Kyon would prefer a relationship with Asahina more than with any of the other girls—and the relationship would fail, on many grounds.


Openly Kyon would say himself he would prefer a relationship with Mikuru, However we already know that it really isn't the case. He finds Haruhi much more interesting than he does Mikuru. Mikuru is basically his "white knight" crush and nothing more.

Haruhi and Kyon is basically pushed at every possibility while everything else is totally ignored in terms of development or even internal referencing.


More generally, I think that Kyon and the three girls would have to develop and mature more for any of the pairings to work. We're not going to see any couples in this series until we see some more important character development happen.

Yea i totally agree, The only one at this point which COULD happen in Book 10 would be Haruhi and Kyon although that would have to be written very well for it to work. The rest...Oh man they would be so pathetic and forced it's unreal.

Taking anything Kyon says about how he feels at face value is an exercise in futility.

Case in point:

Sasaki.

Kyon tells the readers he has no feelings for her other than as a "not close" friend, but...

He says in an earlier book that he "thinks about her once every few days". Is that normal for a person you didn't even consider to be "close" to, for someone you haven't contacted in over a year?

And his dream sequence/flashback later in Vol. 9 reeks to me of a guy simply trying to impress a girl he's crushing on... which, note, is the same way he behaves towards Haruhi the first time he tries talking to her.

I view the whole thing with Sasaki as Kyon being emo about failing to enter a relationship with her and thus refusing to contact her again, since he get couldn't what he wanted.

Also note that Haruhi and Sasaki are physically similar.

Just food for thought.

Two other things: a) KyonxMikuru has pretty much been impossible from the beginning, and if you don't believe that Kyon, at the very least, cares about Haruhi a hell of a lot, you need to read Vol. 4 again.

Totally agreed with the entire post.

Especially the last point.

Disapperance and the subsequent novels is really where the serious development starts (Since TMoHS Ep 6 at the very least). That and Kyon is a CLASSIC unreliable narrator. Attempting to piece his true feelings and intentions without taking in the Hints and subtle additions is just inconcieveable.

[typhonsentra]

I think the biggest tell on Kyon's true feelings for Sasaki was something she said in passing during her second meeting with him in Chapter 1.

Something along the lines of "You of all people should know I've never given anyone to care about me."

This coupled with him on "Impulse" telling her she's attractive in Chapter 3, I'm thinking he was either shot down or she was painfully aware he had feelings but never acknowledged them.

[quigonkenny]

Re: Heatth & Kogetsu name discussion...

Tsuruya doesn't have a full name because she doesn't have "awezum powerz" (beyond the whole Batman thing, of course). Sasaki doesn't have a full name because by the end of her part of the story she won't have any powers either. It's like the Nakagawa thing from Charmed at First Sight LOVER. "Fujiwara" has an obviously fake alias because whether he will have powers at the end of things is in flux. Either he'll be stripped of his powers by Kyon not choosing his side, and keep just his alias (and I'll finally drop the quotes), or he'll end up keeping his abilities somehow and we'll find out his full name (likely only in whichever timeline doesn't survive the end of Volume 10). The rest have their full names because they do have powers (even though we haven't seen hint of Mori's yet).

Tanigawa gives his "special" characters full names and his "normal" characters nicknames or only reveals their family name or title. this has been true from the beginning, and the only "exceptions" can so far be explained by either lack of reader knowledge or in-story changes, as suggested above.

[Triple_R]

Tornadium - This is my current take on Kyon's approach to Haruhi...

I think that the author has skillfully set things up so that he can believably go with out a romance being set up between them, or with a romance set up between them.


If it doesn't happen, he can say "Well, Kyon obviously snarks a lot about Haruhi. She really does annoy him a lot at times. He can tolerate that in a friend, but not in a life partner."


If it does happen, he can say "Well, as many Haruhi fans point out, Kyon is an unreliable narrator. Hence, a lot of what he narrates and says you can't take at face value."


So... he's left it open to either 'play it straight' (mostly anyway) or 'play it self-deceiving' (mostly anyway).

[Heatth]

Re: Heatth & Kogetsu name discussion...

Tsuruya doesn't have a full name because she doesn't have "awezum powerz" (beyond the whole Batman thing, of course). Sasaki doesn't have a full name because by the end of her part of the story she won't have any powers either. It's like the Nakagawa thing from Charmed at First Sight LOVER. "Fujiwara" has an obviously fake alias because whether he will have powers at the end of things is in flux. Either he'll be stripped of his powers by Kyon not choosing his side, and keep just his alias (and I'll finally drop the quotes), or he'll end up keeping his abilities somehow and we'll find out his full name (likely only in whichever timeline doesn't survive the end of Volume 10). The rest have their full names because they do have powers (even though we haven't seen hint of Mori's yet).

Tanigawa gives his "special" characters full names and his "normal" characters nicknames or only reveals their family name or title. this has been true from the beginning, and the only "exceptions" can so far be explained by either lack of reader knowledge or in-story changes, as suggested above.

You forgot 'Mikuru Asahina' is also most probably a fake name. I would agree with you few books ago. HoweverFujiwara prooves that, at last now, not every powered character has a name

[quigonkenny]

You forgot 'Mikuru Asahina' is also most probably a fake name. I would agree with you few books ago. HoweverFujiwara prooves that, at last now, not every powered character has a name
You forgot the "r" in your initial spoiler tag. Please fix it.
Whether "Mikuru Asahina" is her real name or not doesn't matter one whit to the story. Everyone refers to her as such, and she has identified herself as such, both now and in the future, so as far the story is concerned, she is Mikuru Asahina. For that matter, it's the same with Itsuki Koizumi.

One of the few things we do know about "Fujiwara" is that his name is not "Fujiwara". It may be similar, or based on something related to the name "Fujiwara" (one of the great houses of Japanese nobility), but that is not his real name. It is a way for Tanigawa to obfuscate future developments and wink at his naming structure without outright breaking that structure. If he stuck him with a solid descriptive name (like "Sneering Bastard", which he was called by the fans until Volume 9) or made any suggestion that "Fujiwara" was (part of) his real name, that would tip off the fans that he will be losing his powers by the end of his appearance, a la Nakagawa in Charmed at First Sight LOVER. Similarly, if Tanigawa came right out and gave him a full name, we'd know that he'll be keeping his powers (and that he actually has any real powers, and isn't just an overly snarky Criss Angel wannabe with a time travel "hook").