[Manga] Chapter 467 Spoiler Discussion

[james0246]

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Sorry for the delay, I didn't even check to see if there were early spoilers, confirmed early spoilers at that...

[james0246]

So...let me see if I can list the salient points (from a Shounensuki script of a nja confrimed spoiler)...

1. There was a 10-tailed Bijuu (seemingly a Crow)
2. The Rikudou Sennin defeated it and sealed its body in the moon, but its soul had to be sealed in the Sennin, making him the first Jinchuuriki.
3. The chakra was split up, upon the Rikudou Sennin death, into the current 9 Bijuu (Ichibi - Kyuubi ~ making them only as old as whenever Rikudou Sennin did his thing).
4. Madara's "Eye of the Moon" plan is to combine all the current Bijuu to create a 10-Tailed body and then cast an everlasting Tsukuyomi on the moon, turning everyone in to peace loving slaves...? I think.

Additional Info:

-Madara admits to the Raikage that Kirabi is still on the lose.
-Madara admits that Hashirama fully and totally kicked his ass worse than anyone before or since.
-Madara demands Naruto and Kirabi be turned over, and when the Kages refuse, he decalres war (I guess Madara forgot that he was within 5 feet of Naruto just 5 minutes ago...).

[Quzor]

I really don't like this. I mean, really; I REALLY don't like this. Is this actually confirmed?

In my opinion, this is the strongest deus ex machina we've come across in the series. Everyone's been fighting for all of these things, for all this peace...but OH YEAH!... there's another bijuu in the moon, and apparently ONLY Madara knows about it (somehow). And, not only does he know about it, but he's known about it for long enough that he was able to form this secret society (Akatsuki) however many years ago (presumably far longer than the three year jump), to gather up all these bijuu for him, under the guise of some other plan of some variety, so that he could just jump out at the end and say "HEY! NEW IDEA!!!"

Seriously, I'm calling bullshit on this, true or not.

[james0246]

^My real problem is how easily the Akatsuki already dealt with the Bijuu/Jinchuuriki. Why should the Kages consider the creatures a threat when seemingly any S-Rank Nin can defeat them?

As for the whole moon thing...no idea. While Nagato/Pain commented on the moon, and we know such a thing is possible for the Rinnegan (somehow), it is unclear if Madara told Nagato about the Rikudou Sennin making the moon, or if it is actual mythology in the Narutoverse (i.e. kids grow up hearing about how the Sage of 6 Paths created the moon).

That being said, the EMS could have some connection to the 10th Bijuu (which would be the first real evidence of the possibility that some external force would be controlling Madara, though this would also completely shit on the Uchiha Clan as a group of interesting characters), which is why only Madara knows of this...

[Cub-Sama]

^My real problem is how easily the Akatsuki already dealt with the Bijuu/Jinchuuriki. Why should the Kages consider the creatures a threat when seemingly any S-Rank Nin can defeat them?

Let's see, 9 tailed Naruto could've killed Naruto

10 tailed (as strong as all jinchuuriki combined) + Madara = Universal expolosion

@If it is a crow I call on Naruto having the 10 tailed jinchuuriki's soul

[james0246]

^Madara doesn't have the 8 and 9-tails, rather he has the beasts that were already, seemingly, easily defeated. And, since we know the Bijuu are less effective without a Jinchuuriki, there threat level is still high, but the Kages (or Sage Mode Naruto, MS Kakashi, etc) in that room should be able to deal with anyone below 8-tails.

[Mr. Johnny 5]

I really don't like this. I mean, really; I REALLY don't like this. Is this actually confirmed?

In my opinion, this is the strongest deus ex machina we've come across in the series. Everyone's been fighting for all of these things, for all this peace...but OH YEAH!... there's another bijuu in the moon, and apparently ONLY Madara knows about it (somehow). And, not only does he know about it, but he's known about it for long enough that he was able to form this secret society (Akatsuki) however many years ago (presumably far longer than the three year jump), to gather up all these bijuu for him, under the guise of some other plan of some variety, so that he could just jump out at the end and say "HEY! NEW IDEA!!!"

Seriously, I'm calling bullshit on this, true or not.

Well i suppose Madara will win in the end because...he has a spaceship right?
Enterprise 101 Starfleets latest Voyager.

I guess the Rikoudou Sennin overlooked the technology. Orochimaru is the next one they're looking for..because all the stuff they had while trying to fix Kimimaro is top-notch.

[Quzor]

@If it is a crow I call on Naruto having the 10 tailed jinchuuriki's soul

Oh man, I forgot about that crow that Itachi shoved down Naruto's throat. Thank you, Cub-sama; because of you, curiousity, intrigue and speculation can now continue to abound. :)

Edit: I still don't like it...

[Rurik]

^My real problem is how easily the Akatsuki already dealt with the Bijuu/Jinchuuriki. Why should the Kages consider the creatures a threat when seemingly any S-Rank Nin can defeat them?

I wouldn’t consider Akatsuki to be any normal S-rank nin. Besides they are still a power to be recon with, and a power that any country would like for them, as part of the power of the Jinchuriki comes from how well the Jinchuriki uses his Bijuu, for example, Gaara never did released a fully Shukaku against Dedidara. I dont think they consider them as treat, rather they consider them a assett.

Regarding the spoiler, everything was doing as usual (I think the existence of another tailed beast was theorized as the goal of Akatsuki gathering the beasts) until the Tsukijomy the moon so everyone can be tsukijomied….. :eyebrow:
I wonder what about when, A) is day time, B) there is no full moon, and instead new moon stage.


Apart from that, it makes me wonder if this information is part of the reason why Yondaime only sealed a portion of Kyubi in Naruto, so to speak, predicting that one day Madara was going to try this, so he decided to split Kyubi so Madara wouldn’t had it easy on having Kyubi.

This can also help set up the story so that Madara can get part of Kyubi to finish the process and in the same time the author can preserve Naruto’s life. Even like that, Killer Bee future doesn’t look good as I doubt that Madara fails in releasing the 10 tails.

[AaKkisa]

I wouldn’t consider Akatsuki to be any normal S-rank nin. Besides they are still a power to be recon with, and a power that any country would like for them, as part of the power of the Jinchuriki comes from how well the Jinchuriki uses his Bijuu, for example, Gaara never did released a fully Shukaku against Dedidara. I dont think they consider them as treat, rather they consider them a assett.

Regarding the spoiler, everything was doing as usual (I think the existence of another tailed beast was theorized as the goal of Akatsuki gathering the beasts) until the Tsukijomy the moon so everyone can be tsukijomied….. :eyebrow:
I wonder what about when, A) is day time, B) there is no full moon, and instead new moon stage.


Apart from that, it makes me wonder if this information is part of the reason why Yondaime only sealed a portion of Kyubi in Naruto, so to speak, predicting that one day Madara was going to try this, so he decided to split Kyubi so Madara wouldn’t had it easy on having Kyubi.

This can also help set up the story so that Madara can get part of Kyubi to finish the process and in the same time the author can preserve Naruto’s life. Even like that, Killer Bee future doesn’t look good as I doubt that Madara fails in releasing the 10 tails.

That would make some sort of sense. I don't remember all of my facts correctly but wasn't it said at one point that Naruto has natural chakra reserves that are almost double of kakashi? If the tailed beast was removed from him and he was able to survive since it is only half of the 9 tailed, I think it would somehow just make Naruto stronger in the end. Allow his body to fully engulf all of the chakra he has within him that was always held back by the 9 tailed.

[Takashipl]

I really don't like this. I mean, really; I REALLY don't like this. Is this actually confirmed?

In my opinion, this is the strongest deus ex machina we've come across in the series. Everyone's been fighting for all of these things, for all this peace...but OH YEAH!... there's another bijuu in the moon, and apparently ONLY Madara knows about it (somehow). And, not only does he know about it, but he's known about it for long enough that he was able to form this secret society (Akatsuki) however many years ago (presumably far longer than the three year jump), to gather up all these bijuu for him, under the guise of some other plan of some variety, so that he could just jump out at the end and say "HEY! NEW IDEA!!!"

Seriously, I'm calling bullshit on this, true or not.

If this is true, Kishi is trying to end manga as fast as it's possible. There are sooo many plotholes - why didn't Madara catch Naruto 5 minutes ago? He could have easily dispatch Kakashi and Yamato. Why did they do nothing during 3 years time skip? Hell, why 2 man cells in Akatsuki? Why didn't they go full 10-man team capturing one jinchuuriki after another? I could ask similar questions for hours...

[Kafriel]

Okay, so Madara wants the tailed beasts...why the hell did he even BOTHER making akatsuki, a top secret shadow clan to silently capture the jinchuuriki, and then just blurt out his plans to the entire world (thru the kages) when he wouldn't even tell his associates?
That's one, now for the second...if he casts a global tsukuyomi, everyone will die matrix-style, not knowing where they are. Plus, making everyone a pacifist doesn't quench his thirst for war and bloodshed.
And finally, how does he get to genjutsu an entire freakin satellite? If he has the power to destroy the world, a villain naturally chooses tyrrany over anything else! Oh, unless, by receiving the 10 tails he reverts back to Tobi forever, and turns everyone else into a Tobi-zombie...which would be an awesome way for the manga to end, pumkpin men rule the world :D

[SeanQ]

Lol...spoiler sounds so silly...
Where does Sasuke fall into this plan...?

[darkmaster074]

CONFIRMED SPOILER
by: Nja-2Ch/ vered, Shounensuki-NF
SUMMARY:

The coloured cover is two pages wide and has Zabuza, Haku, and all the dead Akatsuki members!

Sakura is getting ready to set out to the Land of Iron. Three people are going, it seems: Sakura, Kiba, and Lee.

Well, to the conference room:
The Raikage uses a momentary oppertunity to attack Sasuke on Madara's shoulder, but [Madara uses] a space-time ninjutsu to send Sasuke somewhere else.
[He] orders Karin to give [Sasuke] medical treatment and sends her away too

From here, the conversation starts:
Gaara: "Why did you make Sasuke come here!?"
Madara: "I sent him here because it's very valuable [to me] that he activate his eyes all the way up to Susanoo. I also planned for him to bring you Five Kage down and imprison you, but it seems that was hopeless yet."
Here ends the conversation about Sasuke
"My goal is to rule the world. I've wished this for a long time."
Tsuchikage: "In your case, you should be able to do that by yourself, right?"
Madara: "My body was too gravely injured in the fight against the First, Hashirama. I don't have such power left."
Someone: "Why are you collecting the Tailed Beasts?"
To the story about the Eye of the Moon Plan:
The origin of the current Tailed Beasts is that they are born from a single Ten-Tails. Temari or Kankurou: "Shouldn't there be only nine Tailed Beasts?"
Madara: "Long ago, the Sage of the Six Paths saved the world from the Ten-Tails, but because the beast's power was so great, the Sage put the demonic power inside his own body, making himself a jinchuuriki. Then, he created the Moon and sealed the Ten-Tails' body there. (the story was much longer, but I can't remember the rest) Then, as his own death approached, he divided the power into nine pieces..."
I'm sorry, but I'm telling it extremely simplified
Madara: "[My goal is to] revive the Ten-Tails and become its jinchuuriki, project an infinite Tsukuyomi on the Moon, and so rule all of mankind, thus I will create a world without strife."
Mizukage: "This world has no place for such a dream or hope"
Madara: "Right now, it's neither hope nor anything. Hurry up and hand over the Eight-Tails and Nine-Tails."

To be continued
That's the entire long spoiler
-----------------------
Raikage: "The Eight-Tails!? Bee is still alive?"
Madara: "The capture of the Eight-Tails was a failure. Despite being your younger brother, he is a truly splendid shinobi."
Raikage: "What the hell! I'll bet he took this opportunity to go play somewhere else!! When he comes back, I'll Iron Claw¹ him!!!"
C, Darui: "Something like that was probably what he was thinking about..."

Gaara: "I won't hand over Uzumaki Naruto!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Tsuchikage: "Raikage, what about you?" "Of course I won't hand him over!!!!!"
Madara: "Are you okay with a breakdown? If it comes down to war, I don't think you guys will have a great chance of success against the Tailed Beasts"

Gaara: "I won't throw away my dream!!"

Madara: "All right then, I hereby declare the Fourth Great Ninja World War!!"

The end　

[SeanQ]

Okay...clearly Madara is an idiot...why is he asking them to hand over Naruto...when Kakashi has him...and why didn't he just jack naruto in the first place...if he's going to just get mad that no one wants to give up Naruto...and I don't think it was wise of Madara to hand Sasuke to Karin...it seems like the perfect opportunity for her to rape him...and un"gay"him.

[DeDe]

Add me to those wondering why didn't Madara just teleport Nartuo away when he had the chance? Unless he is trying to get the Kages to turn on each other. Speaking of which, who exactly is going to fight this 4th Great Ninja War? Kakuzu was in charge of getting an army for Madara. But we haven't heard about that for ages.

nja sometimes leaves a lot of the spoiler or confuses things. We have to wait for Ohana/

[That Other Ninja]

Hey I was right. Madara intends to use the moon as a giant Sharingan. :heh:

[KidKoolAid]

Assuming the Spoilers are true I am left a little dumbfounded. A lot of stuff in the spoilers are things I have thought would have happened , but now that they have transpired I feel less than excited. Maybe it was the delivery of the whole thing. It seemed to come out of left field. I don't like Madara telling his entire plan and saying how weak he is. I don't understand why Madara thought anything he had said would sway the Kages to give up killer bee and Naruto. He must have known what the answer would be , so why not skip all that and continue what he was doing. Maybe plant the seeds for war without them realizing so it catches them off guard. Oh yeah let them know you are not that strong , that's the way to make them fear. I would have better like for him in another scene explain his entire plan to sasuke.

Why declare a public war when it will just be Ninja world vs Madara/haak/remaining Akatsuki members when he could have been more sneaky and devious and have them fight each other and secretly do what he need. Seriously Madara had went from a much promising Villain into a complete F-Up. Thank god I at least had Oro for a while in this series.

I don't like the whole eye of the moon plan to keep everyone docile on earth for peace. It just left me with the feeling of WTF!! Since when did Madara give two pints about world peace. I just don't know.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Madara: "All right then, I hereby declare the Fourth Great Ninja World War!!"

So how the hell does Madara want to fight? The whole world vs Sasuke? I hoped for a tricky plan where Madara tricks the big villages to fight against each other and in the chaos it's easier for akatsuki to do whatever they want. But to declare war against the 5 villages is the opposite, Madara is creating a world alliance against himself, and this is stupid. The villages have already killed most of his organization while they weren't even allied with each other. This is the kind of shonen-manga-evil-guy arrogance that is the number one cause of death for these guys.

The only good thing is that Madara confirmed that his body is gone so he is unable to fight on kage level.

[SMASHERJACKSON]

Hey I was right. Madara intends to use the moon as a giant Sharingan. :heh:

i wonder how its a world war when its the world vs 1 organization, and wonder wat susanos use is considering how weak sasuke is.

lol @ moon sharingan

ill just leave this here

Z50LwABHlSE

[thedonkiluminati]

Well, Naruto is supposed to be the guy to unite the nations. What better way then saving them all from utter destruction by tailed beast?

[Rahan]

The only good thing is that Madara confirmed that his body is gone so he is unable to fight on kage level.

Minato disagrees.

It just mean the current (including the recently dead like Minato or the sannins) ninjas are complete thrash compared to Shodai / old Madara ...

Tsuchikage thought Madara by himself had enough power to rule the world ...
Even damaged, Madara remains unbeatable for the likes of Minato.

Old generations surpassing the previous ones, my ass ...
It's funny it's Konoha's ideology when each of their kage seem to be weaker than the previous one ...

[james0246]

The only good thing is that Madara confirmed that his body is gone so he is unable to fight on kage level.

Wow, what spoilers are you reading, because I read nothing so far that indicated that Madara's body was gone, only that he was so gravely injured after his fight with Hashirama (who turns out to be the best thing since sliced bread (or Rikudou Sennin...whichever came first) that he did not have the power to conquer the world by himself.

edit: damn, Rahan beat me to the punch :).

[Gin]

It seems to me that the Tsuchikage might side with Madara in the war. From the spoiler, it seems like he was talking respectfully to Madara and he even asked the Raikage to hand over Killer Bee. If not then, its going to be a pretty short war, since all Madara has is himself, Kisame, Zetsu, and the disgraced team Taka.

Also I hope everyone has a spacesuit because there's going to be a fight on the moon :heh:

[Rurik]

Hey I was right. Madara intends to use the moon as a giant Sharingan. :heh:


So It was YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Okay, so Madara wants the tailed beasts...why the hell did he even BOTHER making akatsuki, a top secret shadow clan to silently capture the jinchuuriki, and then just blurt out his plans to the entire world (thru the kages) when he wouldn't even tell his associates?
He needed the Chakra for the sealing and having a group of known Ninja to do your job during 10 years is better so you can keep yourself as mastermind in the dark.

Is not the same to say a group of S-rank ninja is looking for tail beast than saying Madara, the evil and ugly Uchiha is looking for the tail beast, the second one would had made Madara plans even more difficult.

[Rahan]

Well, Naruto is supposed to be the guy to unite the nations. What better way then saving them all from utter destruction by tailed beast?

Madara is the one who is uniting the villages right now ... (yes, against him, but they still stand united)

It's Kishi pattern for Naruto.
Naruto won't start anything on his own ... Just like he had a book written for him to redeem Nagato and resurrect everybody, he has Itachi's gift to redeem Sasuke, Minato's that jutsu to beat Madara and the villages already united so that he only need to beat Madara / Sasuke to be the revolutionary that lead the world to peace / prosperity without doing any revolution or anything beside beating one guy.

Anyway, the plot is in poor shape right now ...
Either Madara doesn't even come close of being complete and full strength or Naruto will lose the Kyuubi, making Naruto pathetic (it would mean he would lose AGAIN against Sasuke), Minato's sacrifice pointless and the foreshadowing stupid (what was the point of KSM it if is to be defeated first time he uses it seriously).
And in both case, it's no good.

[That Other Ninja]

So It was YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yeah I mean its not very ambiguous... "Moon's Eye Plan" or "Eye of the Moon Plan". Came to me pretty quick.

And if you think about it, what are wars but the declarations of a few men who lead nations?

[AuroraFlash]

Wow, what an explosive chapter. I can't believe this much information is out so soon? Isn't it a canard? I have to sleep over it for at least one night. I can't believe it. Naruto's 9-Tails is just a little part of a bigger puzzle and Naruto has no Rin'negan to enslave a possible 10-tails and Madara wants Naruto and Hachibi. This means Naruto and Hachibi have something in common, a common destiny. Hachibi has to train Naruto, no matter what. Since 8-Tails has to be sucked in first, Naruto has some kind of deadline, because if Kisame wins against Hachibi, Naruto is way next.

I can't let that happen.
I need to switch from the Bleach universe to the Naruto universe immediately and I have to shoot Madara with my Ceros and I'll definitely swallow his Amaterasu.

By the way, his body really seems quite damaged. I think he really wants Sasuke's body, so that he can achieve his goals. After all, he wants to absorb the 10-tails, he doesn't want Sasuke to have it.

I see something dramatic. Naruto could lose his bijuu, but survive because Sakura was the only one to witness Chiyo's jutsu and I guess she would use it for Naruto (because she does not want to be useless anymore) and Naruto would be revived after losing his bijuu (just like Gaara) and he would need some new powers, I guess. He's good at sage arts, maybe he can perfect it afterwards.
This is just one possible outcome. I don't really want Sakura to die, but I think she's the type of character who would sacrifices oneself for another.

[Yoko Takeo]

Madara is the one who is uniting the villages right now ... (yes, against him, but they still stand united)

It's Kishi pattern for Naruto.
Naruto won't start anything on his own ... Just like he had a book written for him to redeem Nagato and resurrect everybody, he has Itachi's gift to redeem Sasuke, Minato's that jutsu to beat Madara and the villages already united so that he only need to beat Madara / Sasuke to be the revolutionary that lead the world to peace / prosperity without doing any revolution or anything beside beating one guy.

Anyway, the plot is in poor shape right now ...
Either Madara doesn't even come close of being complete and full strength or Naruto will lose the Kyuubi, making Naruto pathetic (it would mean he would lose AGAIN against Sasuke), Minato's sacrifice pointless and the foreshadowing stupid (what was the point of KSM it if is to be defeated first time he uses it seriously).
And in both case, it's no good.

You know, I actually had high hopes that Naruto would actually bring the change to the ninja world himself, since that's been what he was aiming for since the mission against Zabuza. It was looking good until now but I have to agree. None of the change Naruto plans on bringing will actually be done by him. Madara's doing all the work for him, probably without even realizing it. I can't help but agree with you in the end. The plot was looking good but now I'm horribly disappointed. Looks like Bleach may well not be the only manga I'm gonna drop this week.

[SeanQ]

Lol...I'm just waiting for one of the Kages to be like...
"You and what army...?"
And Madara opens a portal..."This army!"

[Yoko Takeo]

Lol...I'm just waiting for one of the Kages to be like...
"You and what army...?"
And Madara opens a portal..."This army!"

Kinda reminds me of that scene from the "Night at the Museum 2" where the Pharoah opens the door leading to another realm and all these soldiers with eagle heads pop up :heh:

[darkmaster074]

Lol...I'm just waiting for one of the Kages to be like...
"You and what army...?"
And Madara opens a portal..."This army!"

army of 7 Bijuu

[ZGoten]

You know, I actually had high hopes that Naruto would actually bring the change to the ninja world himself, since that's been what he was aiming for since the mission against Zabuza. It was looking good until now but I have to agree. None of the change Naruto plans on bringing will actually be done by him. Madara's doing all the work for him, probably without even realizing it. I can't help but agree with you in the end. The plot was looking good but now I'm horribly disappointed. Looks like Bleach may well not be the only manga I'm gonna drop this week.

Madara won´t necessarily unite the nations. There´s a chance of widening the rift even more due to the disagreement of the Kages, wether to meet Madara´s demands or not.
The only problem with this theory is, what could the Kage´s possibly be afraight of right now, which would lead them to be willing to hand over Kyuubi and Hachibi? It´s not like seven people can take on five countries. At least I hope so...

[james0246]

^Um, 2-7 people did just take on all of Konoha (Pain/Nagato and Konan), and 1 person did just attempt to strong arm his way through 4 Kages and 5 Jounin. And finally, the Tsuchikage already assumes that Madara is powerful enough by himself to have defeated entire (maybe even multiple) countries (probably even all the Kages in the room presently).

So, yeah...a few people seems to be all that is needed to enslave the world...

[ZGoten]

Dear god, I just hope that old man is just a little fanboy of Madara who cannot be taken serious.
Someone needs to remind Kishimoto, that it´s ninjas his story is based on, not super heroes or stuff.

[Yoko Takeo]

Madara won´t necessarily unite the nations. There´s a chance of widening the rift even more due to the disagreement of the Kages, wether to meet Madara´s demands or not.
The only problem with this theory is, what could the Kage´s possibly be afraight of right now, which would lead them to be willing to hand over Kyuubi and Hachibi? It´s not like seven people can take on five countries. At least I hope so...

The only one I see joining Madara is Tsuchikage at this stage, considering he justified his actions for supporting the Akatsuki. He probably even encouraged Deidara to join them. I don't see Raikage handing over Killer Bee to the Akatsuki when he was hell bent on avenging him before, so he's not gonna foresake him to the enemy just like that. I don't see Konoha handing over Naruto. Even Danzou won't allow for that when he attempted such extreme measures to keep him from the danger of getting captured by Pain. Gaara will stick with Naruto no matter what and I don't need to explain that since it's obvious. Mizukage wants a clean slate and eliminate any bad rumors about the Mist and how their village was the place were Akatsuki was created. She doesn't want people associating her with the Akatsuki because of that.

All in all, it's four countries against one when it comes to handing over the Jinchuuriki. Obviously, nobody trusts Danzou, and his days as Hokage are over now that he's been discovered by Ao. In any case, as long as Danzou is leader of Konoha, the other three countries (except maybe the Sand) who are opposing the Akatsuki won't co-operate with it, but at the very least Konoha doesn't have to worry about fighting against everyone for the time being since it's not in their best interest to comply to the Akatsuki's request either. When the matter of Danzou is resolved, there should be even less of a rift between Konoha and the others.

That leaves the Tsuchikage, who'se a half cripple compared to the other Kages, and it's highly doubtful that country alone can counter four others, regardless how large their armies are. Considering they are forced to rely on the Akatsuki, their country individually might actually be relatively weak compared to the Cloud or the Leaf, so I wouldn't really place them as being all so powerful. Tsuchikage's putting himself in a bad position by allying himself with Madara, assuming that's what he'll do. Either way, whatever rift there will be won't be all that great.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Wow, what spoilers are you reading, because I read nothing so far that indicated that Madara's body was gone, only that he was so gravely injured after his fight with Hashirama (who turns out to be the best thing since sliced bread (or Rikudou Sennin...whichever came first) that he did not have the power to conquer the world by himself.


You can choose between two options why is Madara not taking both Naruto and KillerBee:
1, Huge plothole, the guy has EMS with all it's former power and could easily get all 9 demons without hiding and using S-class criminals to do the job for him
2, Madara's body is broken down or gone and that's why he needs other people to do the job

We know that his body was so heavily injured by the 1st that nobody believed that he could survive. Also he is about 90 years old by now. He should at least look like Danzou, but he is not. Also he is fast, he easily avoided Kiba's attack, he is also strong since he blocked Suigetsu's sword with his bare hand. So that can't be an injured 90 years old body, that must be something else. A real body cannot survive being hit by amaterasu, he didn't avoid amaterasu and still he got out of it alive, not even his special clothes had any injury. I think this is all a clear sign that Madara is not in his former body now, and because of that he can't fight like a real ninja with EMS. Maybe his current body is a form of susaano, that is he made a susaano body for himself, but because of that he has to maintain his jutsu at all times and that makes him low on chakra. What we see is that he never attacked people like the 4th hokage without using someone else. He used the kyuubi against the 4th hokage, when the kyuubi was sealed Madara escaped. He also escaped when his control over the mizukage failed. It seems Madara's only option is to use demons to fight, maybe because controlling demons consumes less chakra in his case. Now he has 7 demons, he can attack any of the 5 ninja villages. Using Sasuke he has also checked who are his opponents, and it seems he is sure that these kages have no chance against him.


Minato disagrees.

Minato defeated Madara by sealing the demon. That is a jutsu that kills the user. Why do you think Madara was so strong if he couldn't do anything after both Minato and the Kyuubi were gone? I think the only answer can be that Madara is weak without the kyuubi, so he had to escape. Minato was really a genius that's very rare, because without any bloodline he could fight with people who have godmode bloodlines. It's easy when someone has the best bloodline in the world, even an average guy seems to be good spamming MS jutsu. The 1st hokage vs Madara fight was most likely just a fight where two bloodlines that can control demons were fighting using demons, a fight of bloodline monsters. But when someone can fight them without having a bloodline, that is an interesting fight.


It just mean the current (including the recently dead like Minato or the sannins) ninjas are complete thrash compared to Shodai / old Madara ...

And that why the 1st hokage died so young? He must be trash too. Only Madara is the great guy, that why he is hiding and can't do anything else than talking to Naruto.


It's funny it's Konoha's ideology when each of their kage seem to be weaker than the previous one ...
Well you should discuss that with Kishimoto himself, since he surely disagrees :D

[iBeast]

Lol damn so the first hokage must of been one bad ass mofo...even stronger then the 4th??? err lol i don't know about that...

[Gin]

Lol...I'm just waiting for one of the Kages to be like...
"You and what army...?"
And Madara opens a portal..."This army!"

And then the Mooninites walk out? :heh: cookies to who ever knows who they are.

[Cub-Sama]

I was thinking before just watch Madara is going to sharingan the moon like Lelouch geassed god or the collective unconcisous(who looked like a moon when he did it), Madara will then use Sovereign Indoctrination on the whole earth using the moon.

I will laugh if Madara kept Uchihas away for this very purpose and has an army of them in another dimension

[That Other Ninja]

And then the Mooninites walk out? :heh: cookies to who ever knows who they are.
Well first, Madara has to vacate the moon by evicting Enel and the Spaceys to initiate his Eye of the Moon plan.

[kk2extreme]

wait? moon is in space :twitch:, and you need a space suit to survive.

p.s. 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9 = 45 :D

[The-Wolf-Of-Mibu]

Madara is America
He is strong so he wants to bully people around

[Takashipl]

In dragonball they destroyed the moon... twice. I see place to use giant mega super oodama rasenshuriken :D

[Suika-Esper]

I was thinking before just watch Madara is going to sharingan the moon like Lelouch geassed god or the collective unconcisous(who looked like a moon when he did it), Madara will then use Sovereign Indoctrination on the whole earth using the moon.

I will laugh if Madara kept Uchihas away for this very purpose and has an army of them in another dimension

This was exactly what I was thinking of. ALL HEIL MADARA! ALL HEIL MADARA!


If he relocates his army to the moon/starts a village on the moon somehow and we get a clan of space ninjas though, that's it. I'm done with Naruto.:heh:

[Cub-Sama]

This was exactly what I was thinking of. ALL HEIL MADARA! ALL HEIL MADARA!


If he relocates his army to the moon/starts a village on the moon somehow and we get a clan of space ninjas though, that's it. I'm done with Naruto.:heh:

What do you mean that would be awesome, Space Ninjas! The Village Hidden on the Moon, Madara will be Moonkage and after boredom will send the moon crashing into the Earth and Naruto will have 3 days to stop it but he can reset the days with a special song

[The-Wolf-Of-Mibu]

This was exactly what I was thinking of. ALL HEIL MADARA! ALL HEIL MADARA!


If he relocates his army to the moon/starts a village on the moon somehow and we get a clan of space ninjas though, that's it. I'm done with Naruto.:heh:

:D
http://server2.uploadit.org/files/jiggaman-spaceni.jpg

[KidKoolAid]

Madara will be Moonkage and after boredom will send the moon crashing into the Earth and Naruto will have 3 days to stop it but he can reset the days with a special song

I LOL'ed. That is only if Naruto can retrieve his magical instrument and play the song of Toads.

[Cub-Sama]

I LOL'ed. That is only if Naruto can retrieve his magical instrument and play the song of Toads.

I forgot about that part, however good thing is that he can go kyuubi anytime he wants last time he was made to go kyuubi minato played the song of healing so he might be able to use the kyuubi like before again without the side effects of never changing back.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Damn, why do the villains always gotta blab their secret plans to everyone? At least Jiraiya had to ask Pein for his plans and he only obliged him because he was going to kill him. I do think it's awesome that there's a Captain Planet bijuu created by the powers of the others combined, I wonder which bijuu is the power of heart...

I just wonder where Sasuke comes into that, and how exactly he's supposed to "sync" with the statue.

Yeah I mean its not very ambiguous... "Moon's Eye Plan" or "Eye of the Moon Plan". Came to me pretty quick.

Same here...:heh:

chp 253
Well the spoiler is interesting if it's true. I wonder if Madara's "Eye of the Moon " plan has any association with Tsukuyomi, since the name of the technique means "Moon Reader"




We know that his body was so heavily injured by the 1st that nobody believed that he could survive. Also he is about 90 years old by now. He should at least look like Danzou, but he is not. Also he is fast, he easily avoided Kiba's attack, he is also strong since he blocked Suigetsu's sword with his bare hand. So that can't be an injured 90 years old body, that must be something else. A real body cannot survive being hit by amaterasu, he didn't avoid amaterasu and still he got out of it alive, not even his special clothes had any injury. I think this is all a clear sign that Madara is not in his former body now

Madara survived the Amaterasu, but he did react with panic when he was hit with it and he seemed to feel the pain judging by the screams. Hinata looking at him with Byakugan also didn't pick up anything odd like it did when she looked at Kabuto. His body is definitely not normal, but it does seem to be flesh-and-blood, just what the ability to turn intangible

I see something dramatic. Naruto could lose his bijuu, but survive because Sakura was the only one to witness Chiyo's jutsu and I guess she would use it for Naruto (because she does not want to be useless anymore) and Naruto would be revived after losing his bijuu (just like Gaara) and he would need some new powers, I guess. He's good at sage arts, maybe he can perfect it afterwards.

I like the idea of Naruto losing the Kyuubi too, and I always kinda figured it would happen. I figure now that Madara is going to get all the bijuu somehow and his plan will succeed. Whenever a villain's goal is to transform into some uber god-like creature it just about always happens. They are then defeated (or sealed).

[Rurik]

^Um, 2-7 people did just take on all of Konoha (Pain/Nagato and Konan), and 1 person did just attempt to strong arm his way through 4 Kages and 5 Jounin. And finally, the Tsuchikage already assumes that Madara is powerful enough by himself to have defeated entire (maybe even multiple) countries (probably even all the Kages in the room presently).

Nah.that is just inconsistency from Kishi's part:

Negato ultimatley failed, Sasuke did it based on arrogance and was pwned by Mizukage and Tsuchikage was abaout to also give the final blow and could just be giving Madara hype.

One Ninja could be very well a decisive factor in wining a war, but at the end, not even the strongest one, alone can conquer it by himself. Madara even needed to join forces with Shodai, when he was at the peek of his powers and even Shodai + Madara (Shodai who was mentioned that was not stronger than Sandaime Hokage) could only achieve for creating Konoha and not dominating the entire Naruto map.

[Slayerx]

Madara won´t necessarily unite the nations. There´s a chance of widening the rift even more due to the disagreement of the Kages, wether to meet Madara´s demands or not.
The only problem with this theory is, what could the Kage´s possibly be afraight of right now, which would lead them to be willing to hand over Kyuubi and Hachibi? It´s not like seven people can take on five countries. At least I hope so...

A disagreement over whether or not to meet madara's demands?
Madara demanded the 9 and 8 tails, after telling the kages they they were the key to his plans for world domination... his demands are essentially "let me enslave you and your villages with my genjutsu"... Who in there right mind would accept something like that, especially when you considering that it's essentially madara and 7 beast vs the 5 most powerful nations in the world + 2 beast... and we can note, that the previous 7 beasts were all able to be beaten by a single S-class ninja, where as the 8 and 9 tails are the ones that have proven themselves to be exceptionally difficult to capture... 5 kages, the 2 strongest beast, and some damn good jounins vs 7 beasts and like 3 S-class ninjas... Madara doesn't exactly seem like his in a very dominating position.

Really, if madara wanted to cause indecision amognst the kages he should have made the demands without detailing what he was going to use them for or feed them a lie to make it seem like his plans for the beast wasn't all that bad...

Hell this declaration of war was a really stupid idea... the best idea would have been to stay in the shadows and manipulate the countries against eachother, and keep them apart... he COULD kept things so that he would only have to deal, with leaf and cloud... crushing 2 or 3 villages (espeically 1 of whom had been previously damaged) with 7 beast would be much easier than crushing 5... but by declaring war against all 5, he brought ALL of them in the mix against him and made his job about 10 times harder... really, as we saw the meeting was suffering from quite a bit of strife between the 5 kages, but madara just reminded them why the hell they are meeting here in the first place.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Hell this declaration of war was a really stupid idea... the best idea would have been to stay in the shadows and manipulate the countries against eachother, and keep them apart... he COULD kept things so that he would only have to deal, with leaf and cloud... crushing 2 or 3 villages (espeically 1 of whom had been previously damaged) with 7 beast would be much easier than crushing 5... but by declaring war against all 5, he brought ALL of them in the mix against him and made his job about 10 times harder... really, as we saw the meeting was suffering from quite a bit of strife between the 5 kages, but madara just reminded them why the hell they are meeting here in the first place.

Definitely agree that what Madara is doing seems insane and he seems to be setting up his own downfall, but we should probably keep in mind who we're talking about here too. This is probably some crazy gambit. Remember that Madara said a couple chapters back that things were moving way too slowly for him and he was through being cautious.

I think now rather than using subtly and allowing the Kages to think over their plans rationally at a summit, Madara's forcing them into action right now. Leading them into rash decisions that will eventually accomplish what he wants.

Still though, a direct challenge seems...well, insane.

[Quzor]

...we get a clan of space ninjas...

Oh, don't hate on it. This would be awesome. A village on the moon, and space ninjas, open the door to so many other possibilities; space jail, space cash, Babyfark McGeezax... oh wait, wrong show...

Seriously though, this "I CAN HAS WAR!!!" thing by Madara, feels like Plot no Jutsu on the most epic of levels. Madara basically said "Here's my plan, and you can't do anything to stop me, so just give me what I want," only to follow it up with "Man, Hashirama kicked my ass back in the day, and I'm still really not fully recovered from that service." The number and power of available ninja aside, this is a ridiculous proposition that just seems as though it would have been... unlikely... to transpire the way the story was headed. All of team Snake was unable to capture Kirabi, and Pain was unable to capture Naruto. For a group of super-villains who usually did things in groups of TWO(!), this seems undeniably sub-par. Even the suggestion that Madara + Snake + 7 Bijuu could take on the entire ninja world.

Also, consider the fact that, we really have no idea how effective the 7 individual bijuu at Madara's disposal are going to be. For each village that had a Jinchuuriki, they must have had a way to control the bijuu, at least in the sense that they were able to seal it away in someone. I'm sure not everyone was using the "Death God" jutsu to create Jinchuuriki. If Madara just chooses to unleash random Bijuu upon random villages, is that really going to be successful, or are those villages just going to go, "Cool, new Jinchuuriki available," and send out their sealing artists to take care of them?

Plot no jutsu + Deus Ex Machina... It's a motherf***er man...

[KidKoolAid]

Madara is going to try to unleash the 10 tails and accidentally let out Doomsday. He beat superman now it is naruto turn. This is just terrible if true , I wonder what made kishi do it this way. It seems like he is trying end things rather quickly.

[Methuselah]

Wow.. Raikage has lost all hate and the lost of his arm from Sasuke once Madara tells him the truth.. Now I see Raikage loosing another arm to Iron Claw Bee.. This is interesting.

[Hiking_Bear]

I thought Kishimoto really liked Star Wars before. First we had Nagato "the chosen one" killing his former teacher ObiWa- I mean Jiraiya. Then, we had Naruto undergoing training from Yoda/Fukasaku in order to utilize sage chakra (i.e. the force). Naturally, I associated Madara with Emperor Palpatine (the dark, manipulative lord of the Sith/Uchiha, who must always take an apprentice). But, I never thought Kishimoto would go so far as to have Madara build a Death Star...

Naruto is going to need an X-wing.

[Alchemist007]

Now Pein was a strong mofo, but just the size differential between the little pokeball on Kyuubi attempt and the Moon, I want to see Rikudou in srs action

[The-Wolf-Of-Mibu]

I wonder what is a better defense against a straight projectile attack.

Susano or the triple demon gates which Orochimaru summoned in order to block Kyubi's chakra attack.

http://www.narutohurricane.com/manga_pics/naruto_c295_6.jpg

[Kyero Fox]

guys he wants THEM to hand him over, meaning betray him. instead of him taking naruto. it would cause a bigger effect if they turned him over.

[james0246]

guys he wants THEM to hand him over, meaning betray him. instead of him taking naruto. it would cause a bigger effect if they turned him over.

That still makes very little sense. If he is going to turn all of humanity (or at least the Elemental Countries) into his mindless slaves anyway, then forcing them to feel despair beforehand makes very little sense. It would be like shouting insults at a deaf person, or making rude gestures to a blind person, etc. Additionally, it doesn't make sense if Madara is being legitimate in his desire for peace; you don't force despair when you really just want peace (Pain attempted that to a spectacular failure). (And this doesn't even raise the fact that Madara already ordered Kisame to capture Kirabi.)

Right now, until further info is revealed, Madara just looks silly.

[The-Wolf-Of-Mibu]

That still makes very little sense. If he is going to turn all of humanity (or at least the Elemental Countries) into his mindless slaves anyway, then forcing them to feel despair beforehand makes very little sense. It would be like shouting insults at a deaf person, or making rude gestures to a blind person, etc. Additionally, it doesn't make sense if Madara is being legitimate in his desire for peace; you don't force despair when you really just want peace (Pain attempted that to a spectacular failure). (And this doesn't even raise the fact that Madara already ordered Kisame to capture Kirabi.)

Right now, until further info is revealed, Madara just looks silly.

Just as long as Kishi doesn't turn Madara rosy, revealing him to be some quadruple under-cover-tripple-agent good guy who is secretly doing what hes doing to protect the konoha/ninja-world.

[Methuselah]

Well.. Madara's mask is similar to Zero's.. I guess he could well be acting for world peace in the end by making himself the enemy.. Oh Kishi you clever fool you...

[KidKoolAid]

Hey The-Wolf-Of-Mibu could you point me to the original page of that 3 gates image ?

[The-Wolf-Of-Mibu]

Hey The-Wolf-Of-Mibu could you point me to the original page of that 3 gates image ?

Volume 33, Chapter 295, Pages 07-09

[KidKoolAid]

Volume 33, Chapter 295, Pages 07-09

Thank you very much. :D

[ajnas]

Kishi pattern for Naruto has been clear in Pt2.

Naruto won't start or do anything on his own ...
Just like he had a book written for him to redeem Nagato and resurrect everybody, he has Itachi's gift to redeem Sasuke, Minato's that jutsu to beat Madara and the Ninja world already united so that he only need to beat Madara / Sasuke to be the revolutionary who lead the world to peace / prosperity without doing any revolution or anything beside beating one guy.

Naruto's only relevance to the story is that he will be the one who will finish Madara ...
Kishi gave up long ago on Naruto (the character). Naruto became a mere vessel for the characters Kishi could have written about if he wasn't stuck with his damn main characters.

[Mr. Johnny 5]

LoL but in the end Orochimaru was still sent flying after his "absolute defense" failed to protect him 100%. But he definetly prevented certain death.

In the end Madara's objective is so standard. I'd say Orochimaru's goal was more...original for a bad guy.

[Alchemist007]

Naruto's only relevance to the story is that he will be the one who will finish Madara ...
Kishi gave up long ago on Naruto (the character). Naruto became a mere vessel for the characters Kishi could have written about if he wasn't stuck with his damn main characters.

Lol what are you talking about? Hello the series is called "Naruto" there's a reason for that and it's being shown right now. If he cared so much about other characters doing something he would've done it, it's his work.

[Kaiba]

...So Madara's great plan is to use the moon and Bijuus to turn everyone into Tang? And then Sasuke screws him over and lets Naruto decide and everything's all incredibly screwed up in the end and we're left completely confused. That's how it needs to end.

[Sabaku Kyu]

That still makes very little sense. If he is going to turn all of humanity (or at least the Elemental Countries) into his mindless slaves anyway, then forcing them to feel despair beforehand makes very little sense. It would be like shouting insults at a deaf person, or making rude gestures to a blind person, etc. Additionally, it doesn't make sense if Madara is being legitimate in his desire for peace; you don't force despair when you really just want peace (Pain attempted that to a spectacular failure). (And this doesn't even raise the fact that Madara already ordered Kisame to capture Kirabi.)

Right now, until further info is revealed, Madara just looks silly.

Actually, this kind of thing reminds me of Darkseid from DC. He's always after the anti-life equation which turns everyone in the universe into his slave. And he makes no secret about it. Never stopped him from constantly making threats and proclamations to everyone though (even when he eventually got the equation).

What doesn't really make sense to me is that Tsukuyomi wasn't shown to be genjutsu that controls people in the first place. Everyone who's been trapped in Tsukuyomi was always completely aware they were in a genjutsu.


.So Madara's great plan is to use the moon and Bijuus to turn everyone into Tang? And then Sasuke screws him over and lets Naruto decide and everything's all incredibly screwed up in the end and we're left completely confused. That's how it needs to end.

Maybe Naruto and Hinata can end up being the last people on earth...and Naruto ignores her anyway? :heh:

[AuroraFlash]

Maybe Naruto and Hinata can end up being the last people on earth...and Naruto ignores her anyway? :heh:
Well possible, but on the other hand, her getting hurt made him explode in anger, so I think it's not just ignoring her... it's that he comes back from battle and some wife-like, envious Sakura waits for him and turns him down. It's like a marriage: no sex at all, but he's still forbidden to get along with other women.
Just look how Sakura cried when she heared that Hinata loves Naruto. It was like "Oh my god, he betrays me!!" and when Naruto returned it was like "You deserved that punch! What happened between Hinata and you?!"

I don't know what to make of it, but as Sakura is on her way, I think we'll know all too soon. How about enduring it just a little longer? :uhoh:

What I like is that Madara still talks as if he actually was Madara. I think this is Obito's body –not in a bad shape like Madara's, which was so old and scarred from battle, but still crushed and damaged quite a lot and only Sasuke's body is in perfect shape. Itachi was ill, thus not an option. Maybe Obito had this special vanishing ability that comes in handy so often and that's why he still overtook his body. This whole Uchiha thing is about killing friends, taking siblings' eyes and so on, why not taking bodies to reach the goal? He already admitted that he needs Sasuke's sharingan to evolve.

[Ichimaru]

I can actually see naruto losing the kyubi and dieing like Ariel in FF7....all of a sudden we have a time skip where he awakes up in his mothers homeland under her care....and the rest is history when he recovers from amnesia etc

[ajnas]

Lol what are you talking about? Hello the series is called "Naruto" there's a reason for that and it's being shown right now. If he cared so much about other characters doing something he would've done it, it's his work.It doesn't really make the manga seem of high quality though, it just keeps getting worser and worser each chapter, theres a reason why One Piece and Bleach are Japans top standards.

[Rurik]

Right now, until further info is revealed, Madara just looks silly.


Not to mention contradictory, based on the story Madara told Naruto about Senju and Uchihas, It would had made more sense for Madara to use the power of the 10 tail to conquer trough violence, and not using Tsukijomy to genjutsu everyone.

[AuroraFlash]

Not to mention contradictory, based on the story Madara told Naruto about Senju and Uchihas, It would had made more sense for Madara to use the power of the 10 tail to conquer trough violence, and not using Tsukijomy to genjutsu everyone.

Conquer through violence? Have you lost your mind? None of them, not even Madara can conquer the world by violence... it needs a trick and even that trick needs intense power.

Oh man, this is so similar to the "Ring Parable" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_the_Wise) from Nathan the Wise...

It seems the truth got lost along the way.

[ragnos007]

Madara: "All right then, I hereby declare the Fourth Great Ninja World War!!"

So how the hell does Madara want to fight? The whole world vs Sasuke? I hoped for a tricky plan where Madara tricks the big villages to fight against each other and in the chaos it's easier for akatsuki to do whatever they want. But to declare war against the 5 villages is the opposite, Madara is creating a world alliance against himself, and this is stupid. The villages have already killed most of his organization while they weren't even allied with each other. This is the kind of shonen-manga-evil-guy arrogance that is the number one cause of death for these guys.

The only good thing is that Madara confirmed that his body is gone so he is unable to fight on kage level.

Madara is setting up Sasuke to be his star fighter, by having sasuke develop his sharingan up to susanoo. By that stage his eyes will be really strong in the way of genjutsu. Maybe force sasuke to take his brothers eyes. Then he will give Sasuke the Captured Bijuu to control. That would go along with what Madara said about the 5 kages not being able to fight against all of the Bijuu.

[neshru]

"Fine... I proclaim a declaration of the 4th Great Ninja War from here on out."

Oh come on Kishi, can't you see how fucking retarded that sounds? Couldn't he just say "I declare war to all of you"? No, he has decided that the war that's about to start will in fact be the "Fourth Great Ninja War".

But I guess that's just the icing on the shit cake that is this chapter, I shouldn't complain about that.

[ZGoten]

Well, I don´t find the newest revealings very bothering. They aren´t very original, true, but not bad either, if you consider the fact, that the manga has been going in the wrong direction for a long time, anyway.
Naruto would have been a perfect manga, if it had ended after the chuunin exams with the Konoha rookies teaming up to defeat Orochimaru. A brief and not so deep one, but a way better one as a whole.

[james0246]

^Wow.

First of all, no matter your desire to help, this thread does not allow script spoilers, so you might want to remove your post before a moderator bans you.

Secondly, the links in you signature are a big no-no on this thread. Please remove them or, once again, you will undoubtedly receive some problems from the mods.

[rajin]

Whenever i add some picture they don't accept my signature
what should i do then

also biggest weakness here is that no spoiler thread for any manga

[james0246]

that no spoiler thread for any manga

What exactly do you mean? You are currently on a spoiler thread that, despite its name, is also the general discussion thread for this chapter.

As for the signature, I don't know what to say...choose a smaller image? All I know is that the links you have provided will get you banned since they are direct links to licensed (in America) manga/anime.

[Zetsubo]

LOL !!! thanks for the script translate !!

[Rahan]

Hehe ...
Juubi had the MS apparently (even though it should be verified, since the MS designs are all different, it's hard to tell if it's really a MS)

I should have known Kishi wouldn't have let the sharingan be a downgrade to the Rinnegan the older brother received.
And Hyuuga are definitely out of the picture !

And LOL at the monument close to Konoha passed down for hundred of years to the Uchiha without anyone ever finding out ...

[Bombo]

Woow..Imba script translate .
I can't wait for release chapter ><

[Cub-Sama]

I actually like the spoilers, only problems I have with it is the whole Madara declaring war, he doesnt have an army all he has is 7 bijuu against 5 villages with the strongest people shown in the manga thus far.

Madara does seem a little bit Saren like to me in fact this whole thing reminds me off Mass Effect.

[ShadowAssasin]

So, yeah...a few people seems to be all that is needed to enslave the world...

Our world is already enslaved by a relative few; we don't even have to say anything about the manga world.

[james0246]

Madara does seem a little bit Saren like to me in fact this whole thing reminds me off Mass Effect.

Finally possible. Where before we could only speculate based on little to no evidence, now we have some actual evidence.

Lots of theories were revived in this chapter:

Were the Uchiha (or at least Madara) controlled by this external force? I still think this would be bad character development, but now we finally have evidence to support this theory.

Is the Sharingan derived from demons? Seems likely now. The Jichuuriki side of Rikudou Sennin undoubtedly produced a mutation of the Rinnegan which resulted in the Sharingan.

Did the Rikudou Sennin have horns on his head? More and more likely :).

etc.

That being said, it's nice for the manga to finally confirm that all the MS jutsus are similar between all the Uchiha (that gain the MS).

---

Additionally, did anyone else get partial a Princess Tutu flashback when they heard the supreme evil/demon sealed away was a crow? The Juubi could even have its own Princess Kraehe in Madara...:).

[Rahan]

Additionally, did anyone else get partial a Princess Tutu flashback when they heard the supreme evil/demon sealed away was a crow? The Juubi could even have its own Princess Kraehe in Madara...:).

It's not a crow ... It's a one eyed monster with a figure similar to the Kyuubi ...

The crow thing comes from the guys babelfishing the manga.
Kankurou (in katakana) was translated to Kan Kurou -> Kang Crow -> Crow Kang.
And since Kankurou had the line just before the 10 tailed beast was described ...

[james0246]

^Damn, that upsets me :).

[AaKkisa]

Im reading the end of the script over again and something seems to pop up at me. It was revealed that Naruto's mom, Uzumaki Kushina, is from the Village Hidden in the Mist. Not only that, she was a Kunoichi and not just some villager that Minato met.

This part in the script is what im looking at.

ガアラ『うずまきなるとは渡さない』
Gaara: I won't hand over Uzumaki Naruto.
水影『私も同じく！』
Mizukage: I won't either!
土影『雷影お前は？』
Tsuchikage: And you Raikage?
雷影『もちろん弟は渡さん！』
Raikage: Of course I won't hand over my younger brother!


Clearly we can already see that Gaara wont hand over Naruto, nor will Raikage hand over his younger brother. With what Mizukage said. "I wont either!" That is in direct response to with what Gaara said, stating she wont hand over Naruto. If she said, "I wont hand over either!" then that would be fine but it's the idea of what she said. Any chance that not only is Naruto's mother still alive, but she is actually known by Mizukage as that a possibility we might meet her in the near future during this all out war?

[Yoko Takeo]

Im reading the end of the script over again and something seems to pop up at me. It was revealed that Naruto's mom, Uzumaki Kushina, is from the Village Hidden in the Mist. Not only that, she was a Kunoichi and not just some villager that Minato met.

This part in the script is what im looking at.

ガアラ『うずまきなるとは渡さない』
Gaara: I won't hand over Uzumaki Naruto.
水影『私も同じく！』
Mizukage: I won't either!
土影『雷影お前は？』
Tsuchikage: And you Raikage?
雷影『もちろん弟は渡さん！』
Raikage: Of course I won't hand over my younger brother!


Clearly we can already see that Gaara wont hand over Naruto, nor will Raikage hand over his younger brother. With what Mizukage said. "I wont either!" That is in direct response to with what Gaara said, stating she wont hand over Naruto. If she said, "I wont hand over either!" then that would be fine but it's the idea of what she said. Any chance that not only is Naruto's mother still alive, but she is actually known by Mizukage as that a possibility we might meet her in the near future during this all out war?

Kushina wasn't from the Mist. She was from the Whirpool country. And it doesn't exist anymore.

[AaKkisa]

Kushina wasn't from the Mist. She was from the Whirpool country. And it doesn't exist anymore.

Huh, well then, fair enough. Will shut up now.

[Alchemist007]

Funny how Madara doesn't even consider that he may not be able to control the Jyubi.

[james0246]

Clearly we can already see that Gaara wont hand over Naruto, nor will Raikage hand over his younger brother. With what Mizukage said. "I wont either!" That is in direct response to with what Gaara said, stating she wont hand over Naruto. If she said, "I wont hand over either!" then that would be fine but it's the idea of what she said. Any chance that not only is Naruto's mother still alive, but she is actually known by Mizukage as that a possibility we might meet her in the near future during this all out war?

It has been a popular theory, since we saw the colour of the Mizukage's hair, that the Mizukage was related to Kushina. And, as you point out, that would make her comment more reasonable than if she is just sprouting her intentions to help characters she has never met.

If this was how Kushina came back into play, I would be more than happy if the Mizukage was Naruto's autn or something (this could also explain why she doesn't have a name (then again, the Raikage also doesn't have a name, and I seriously doubt his name being secret has anything to do with the story)).

[The Small One]

Damn, this Rikudo Senning was really impressive.
First he starts to invent the use of chakara and the whole Ninjutsu stuff, then he singlehandedly defeats the most powerful monster ever.

Makes me wonder, how exactly the world looked before, if there was no one to even fight this beast.
And what would have happened, if he failed just before his goal? :heh:

[That Other Ninja]

So Madara claims he doesn't have any power anymore. What does that mean?

[Rahan]

So Madara claims he doesn't have any power anymore. What does that mean?

Nothing ...
Minato confirmed he still had an unfathomable level of power.

Obviously, Madara is trying to provoke the war ...
He could have gotten Naruto, he could have gotten Bee without Kumo ever finding out since they think he is already captured, yet he had to spill the beans and incite them to fight him / Akatsuki.

It's just Madara slighting himself to make the others believe they have a chance, I believe.

[That Other Ninja]

Nothing ...
Minato confirmed he still had an unfathomable level of power.
He said Madara was powerful and a special power would be needed to fight him. Not exactly the same as "unfathtomable level of power" and considering he just admitted he doesn't have power anymore be it physically or something because of some circumstance, I think we should take into account the more recent statement than the former.

[Rahan]

Actually, "a ninja of unfathomable power" is a direct quote of the Binktopia translation. (what sleepyfans lazily translated as "very powerful")

[That Other Ninja]

Actually, "a ninja of unfathomable power" is a direct quote of the Binktopia translation. (what sleepyfans lazily translated as "very powerful")
So thats the right quote?

Even so and again, if what he says in this chapter is true, I still think we shouldn't pass it off as a meaningless statement, as much as you want to.

[Rurik]

Conquer through violence? Have you lost your mind? None of them, not even Madara can conquer the world by violence... it needs a trick and even that trick needs intense power.

Thats the point of the Uchiha part to beggin with, conquer the world trough power and not understanding, which is the Senju way, or so Madara said to Naruto, which is why I said is contradictoy... Madara could just use the 10 tails (which the Rikudo sennin needed to create a moon to seal) to conquer the world trough power, and not the lame Tsukijomy the moon plan...they might as well look for Picolo and just destroy that damm moon...

[Tettsuo]

I find it terribly difficult to believe anything Madara says. He constantly speaks in half-truths.

[Rurik]

I find it terribly difficult to believe anything Madara says. He constantly speaks in half-truths.

The scary thing is that this plot sounds bad enough to actually be all the truth from Madara...

[Tettsuo]

The scary thing is that this plot sounds bad enough to actually be all the truth from Madara...

I understand... but when was the last time he actually told someone the full truth?

[Alleluia_Cone]

Given all that has happened since, the decision by the writer to have Orochimaru resurrect the First Hokage in his fight against the Third Hokage was a terrible miscalculation. It would seem that a ninja capable of doing that would almost certainly have a winning hand. Or if the resurrections themselves were not proper representations of the ninja resurrected, then that seems silly as well.

[The-Wolf-Of-Mibu]

LoL but in the end Orochimaru was still sent flying after his "absolute defense" failed to protect him 100%. But he definetly prevented certain death.

In the end Madara's objective is so standard. I'd say Orochimaru's goal was more...original for a bad guy.

Orochimaru was an interesting villain. He died in a rather anti-climactic way. I don't quite know whats going on with the whole Kabuto having orochimaru's essence/cells in him. But I hope somehow Orochimaru consumes Kabuto and returns to the scene many years later much stronger than he orginally was.

[The-Wolf-Of-Mibu]

Btw guys can I ask you a quick question.

Like I mentioned earlier I've been away on a 3 year hiatus for personal reasons. I just went through 3 years of naruto manga/anime in one delicious sitting.

Anyway, one of the things I wanted to know was relating to the big fight between Pain and Naruto.

If you flip back to those pages, you notice that when Naruto was Kyubified, he had this bone-armor-helmet thing on him

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_J6T1VnueenM/Sai6KVNlBRI/AAAAAAAABuQ/TaFAcckI7hw/s400/naruto_437.jpg

Makes zero sense in the story and seemed to be a huge rip off from bleach hollows.

Maybe I missed something when reading earlier chapters or something. Or was Kishi just having fun and purposely putting that in there to pay omage to bleach?

[Alchemist007]

As he gets more tails, more features of the Kyuubi are presented, at 8 tails he had fur and flesh.

[The-Wolf-Of-Mibu]

As he gets more tails, more features of the Kyuubi are presented, at 8 tails he had fur and flesh.

ahh makes sense thanks

[The-Wolf-Of-Mibu]

Given all that has happened since, the decision by the writer to have Orochimaru resurrect the First Hokage in his fight against the Third Hokage was a terrible miscalculation. It would seem that a ninja capable of doing that would almost certainly have a winning hand. Or if the resurrections themselves were not proper representations of the ninja resurrected, then that seems silly as well.

I don't think what Oro ressurected were true representations of the 1st/2nd. They were zombies devoid of emotions which used some cookie cutter 1st/2nd techniques. Shells of their former selves. It would make zero sense that Oro would be able to truly ressurect zombies equally powerful to the original 1st/2nd. If that were the case he would use them in every fight and almost always win.

[Yoko Takeo]

I don't think what Oro ressurected were true representations of the 1st/2nd. They were zombies devoid of emotions which used some cookie cutter 1st/2nd techniques. Shells of their former selves. It would make zero sense that Oro would be able to truly ressurect zombies equally powerful to the original 1st/2nd. If that were the case he would use them in every fight and almost always win.

They did have their own willpower and memories actually. Shodai actually did mention I never thought the time would come where he'd have to fight Sandaime. That was before Oro put those Kunai in them.

However, it wasn't a miscalculation on Kishi's part. Remember that the bodies had a limited supply of chakra which was only defined to however much of his own chakra Oro poured into them as well as the amount of chakra that the host bodies had, which in this case were two sound Genin for the Shodai and Nidaime, who could not have had that much chakra in the first place. However much that was could only have been a fraction of what Shodai really had when he was alive. Consider that Shodai had enough chakra to control a Bijuu and fight it as well (considering Madara fought while controlling Kyuubi). That's not something Sandaime could have done. The amount of chakra he received could only have been a part of Orochimaru's own chakra. A dead body cannot produce any chakra.

[Captain Commando]

So Madara claims he doesn't have any power anymore

...No he didn't. Not sure why anyone would even believe something like this considering he knocked out a bijuu single handed. That, and it doesn't even state this in the spoiler to begin with.

[That Other Ninja]

...No he didn't. Not sure why anyone would even believe something like this considering he knocked out a bijuu single handed. That, and it doesn't even state this in the spoiler to begin with.
He did IF the translation spoiler is accurate. I'm not saying thats the case, i'm saying its interesting to note that if its true, his statement is something to wonder.

I was referencing Rajin's post (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=2687204#post2687204).

[Ero-Senn1n]

So it seems that the R. Sage was able to seal the 10 tails in the moon the same way Nagato was trying to capture the 9-tailed beast. Well i guess that is the difference between Nagato's and the Sage's power, compared to Nagato the R. Sage was a genius. I mean he inevented everything, so i guess Nagato had the same power but since he was not such an exceptional person he was unable to reach that sort power, that high level.

An interesting part from the spoiler i read:

On it is written a secret that was once written down by the Sage of the Six Paths. Unless one has an eye power, one cannot read it. The Sharingan, Mangekyou Sharingan, and Rinnegan: in that order, each can decipher more details than the previous eye power.

So according to this Madara should not be able to read the final secret written on the monument since he does not have the rinnegan. Madara founded akatsuki around the time when Nagato lost his friend Yahiko. Madara never wanted to collect all the demons before Nagato's time. So it seems logical that Madara was not aware of the final secret on the monument before he did show it to Nagato and Nagato read it. The only problem with this is that Nagato says he wanted a super-weapon of mass destruction, instead of saying that he wants Madara to bring peace to the world for eternity, since Madara is immortal while Nagato is not.

[james0246]

^The final words that only the Rinnegan can read are obviously dedicated to just why one shouldn't attempt to use the Jyuubi :).

[Rahan]

It's retarded the Sage chosen heir can't read the damn thing at all ...
And that he would leave MORE POWER for guys who already have POWER, but that he doesn't trust enough to carry his will.

Unless he left behind for the Senjus a Care Bear no Jutsu to counter the Juubi

[james0246]

Personally, I am interested in how nature energy fits into everything.

edit: Care Bears...I just had a disturbing image of Naruto thrusting his stomach out at his opponents and attacking them with beams of love originating from his stomach...

[Rahan]

I don't think nature energy fits into anything ...

Nagato fought two senjutsus users and didn't care ...

[Quzor]

Care Bears...I just had a disturbing image of Naruto thrusting his stomach out at his opponents and attacking them with beams of love originating from his stomach...

You said it, now it has to happen.

CARE BEAR STAAARRRRRRREEEEE!!!!

I don't think nature energy fits into anything ...

Nagato fought two senjutsus users and didn't care ...
Vehemently disagree. He didn't come out and say "HOLY CRAP WHAT'S THAT!" or "OH NO, SENJUTSU!" but he did iterate the difficulty he had in fighting both of them. Had he not been able to resurrect his bodies, Jiraiya may have won against him, and Naruto flat out beat him.

I suspect that Natural Energy doesn't necessarily lie on the same scale as other varieties of chakra. Theoretically, one could store up a Nature Energy supply that vastly outweighs any chakra supply a person could feasibly maintain. However, it is probably susceptible to the same "rules" as chakra: Someone who uses Nature Energy is not necessarily stronger than someone who does not, and fully exhausting your supply of Nature Energy will cause you to become quite comatose.

[james0246]

I don't think nature energy fits into anything ...

Nagato fought two senjutsus users and didn't care ...

Nagato also didn't know what was going on with their chakra, only that it was different.

Nature energy has to fit into something (it has to exist for some reason outside of pwning Pain and serving as a non-Kyuubi power-up), else it is too random even for a series where certain people simply have to feel fear or lose in order to gain a nifty pair of eyes (Sharingan/Mangekyo Sharingan).

In other words, this could be Naruto's back door to defeating Madara/Jyuubi (how, I do not know. That's for the Toads to decide...:))...which we really do not need to worry about for quite awhile...:).

You said it, now it has to happen.

CARE BEAR STAAARRRRRRREEEEE!!!!

And now I am having flashbacks to the Hotel Rwanda/Care Bear skit from Robot Chicken...

[Sabaku Kyu]

Vehemently disagree. He didn't come out and say "HOLY CRAP WHAT'S THAT!" or "OH NO, SENJUTSU!" but he did iterate the difficulty he had in fighting both of them. Had he not been able to resurrect his bodies, Jiraiya may have won against him, and Naruto flat out beat him.

Kyuubi powers were mostly responsible for that. Before Naruto started growing-tails, God Pein had Naruto squarely pinned. And when Naruto laid the final blow, he wasn't even in sage mode.

In other words, this could be Naruto's back door to defeating Madara/Jyuubi

Or maybe Itachi's "gift" will have something to do with it? More inclined to believe that was meant to deal with Sasuke though. If Itachi had something that could be used against Madara then he probably would've used himself.

[Gamma_Sennin]

Given all that has happened since, the decision by the writer to have Orochimaru resurrect the First Hokage in his fight against the Third Hokage was a terrible miscalculation. It would seem that a ninja capable of doing that would almost certainly have a winning hand. Or if the resurrections themselves were not proper representations of the ninja resurrected, then that seems silly as well.

Not really, Sandaime is praised as the strongest of all the hokages, even in his old age he was impressive. The fact that Hashirama defeated Madara does not necessarily mean he can defeat everyone. It just proves his skill set (a unique power, as Minato would put it) was enough to defeat Madara. I mean it was said he had multiple bijuu under his command, that alone makes him a colossus. I guess Hiruzen was lucky Gaara and Naruto were outside the village whilst there battle was happening, else it might have been 2 kages, Shukaku, Kyuubi and Orochi versus an aged Sandaime.

EDIT: BTW, Since you need the MS to read the tablet, it would make sense Itachi knows of it yes?

[That Other Ninja]

Kyuubi powers were mostly responsible for that. Before Naruto started growing-tails, God Pein had Naruto squarely pinned. And when Naruto laid the final blow, he wasn't even in sage mode.



Or maybe Itachi's "gift" will have something to do with it? More inclined to believe that was meant to deal with Sasuke though. If Itachi had something that could be used against Madara then he probably would've used himself.
Itachi's gift was giving Naruto the ability to see the secret of Rikudou Sennin. Calling it right now.

[Freya]

Rofl. So, so far both Kubo and Kishi don't know wtf they're doing apparently. They need to like ask Oda how to make a good consistent story.

[KidKoolAid]

Rofl. So, so far both Kubo and Kishi don't know wtf they're doing apparently. They need to like ask Oda how to make a good consistent story.

You are right. I am lost at both bleach and naruto right now.

[james0246]

Itachi's gift was giving Naruto the ability to see the secret of Rikudou Sennin. Calling it right now.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing earlier...then again, maybe the EMS also allows the last secret to be read. Whatever the case, by the end of the series we will learn what the last secret is, whether it be by Naruto or something else.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Itachi's gift was giving Naruto the ability to see the secret of Rikudou Sennin. Calling it right now.

Oh, didn't think about that... it'd make more sense if Pein would've gave him that ability, but I still like that idea. :cool:

[bozan]

Remember when madara said that itachi knew some secret about madara that kept sasuke safe? Something like that at least. Makes me wonder if that secret had to do with what was on that monument

[The-Wolf-Of-Mibu]

It is strange. On one hand you feel as if the overall story is moving at a snails pace. (467 chapters .... and we are this far), but on the other hand it feels like everything is rushed. Kishi just randomly pulls explanations and plot twists out of nowhere and doesn't bother explaining them properly before promptly forgetting it and hurriedly moving on to the next thing.

[AuroraFlash]

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing earlier...then again, maybe the EMS also allows the last secret to be read. Whatever the case, by the end of the series we will learn what the last secret is, whether it be by Naruto or something else.
What if Kishimoto gets a heat attack and dies before he can finish his work? Will we go nuts? O_o

[Quzor]

I think a lot of the feeling of the "snail's pace" of the story comes from two things. First, there is a lot of stuff happening right now, in a lot of different places. This means that the story has to jump around a lot to keep us up to date on what is happening with everyone. The chapters are only 17 pages long; that's not a lot of room to make many jumps.

Second, there has been a lot of fighting lately. Whenever there is fighting, the story inevitably slows down, so that the fight can be accentuated. Hence, we're 467 chapters in, and this is where we find ourselves.

The real issue here, is why all of this is coming to fruition in this way. There are so many questions about Madara coming to light, and yet we're getting no answers to the questions we already have. What purpose does explaining his plan here serve? What is the deal with Rinnegan/Sharingan/Mangekyou? What is this "secret" that is on the tablet? Why does NO ONE, saving Madara, know about the Jyuubi? I'm sure there are more, but these are just the questions that are immediately coming to mind.

We'll have to wait and see how all of this plays out but, as I said earlier, this just feels like
"Plot no Jutsu + Deus Ex Machina" to the extreme, on the part of Kishimoto.

[james0246]

@AuroraFlash: Don't worry, Shounen Jump has a series of witch doctors and voodoo shaman on staff just incase one of their mangaka dies before completing a series. Sadly, it takes a few months in-between resurrections (which explains Togashi's constant absences).

[AuroraFlash]

@AuroraFlash: Don't worry, Shounen Jump has a series of witch doctors and voodoo shaman on staff just incase one of their mangaka dies before completing a series. Sadly, it takes a few months in-between resurrections (which explains Togashi's constant absences).

I see... well, I have done the same thing. First, I sold my soul to the devil to make a living and then I resurrected myself before he could lay his hands on me. =)

[The-Wolf-Of-Mibu]

We'll have to wait and see how all of this plays out but, as I said earlier, this just feels like
"Plot no Jutsu + Deus Ex Machina" to the extreme, on the part of Kishimoto.

Worse than Deus Ex Machina, it seems that Every time Kishi has a better idea, he simply disgards the the past plot-direction and goes off on a tangent all-together.

The whole Itachi thing wasn't too bad. Same with Jiraiya's demise. They unfolded a bit more neatly; but Akatsuki, Pain, Madara, the interactions with the other Kages, the tossing aside of Orochimaru all together, and the insane out of the blue plot jumps make it all seem messy. The story is not unfolding in a smooth integrated manner. It is crawling and then taking huge long jumps, then crawling, then a huge long jump in another direction, then crawling etc.

Maybe its because you guys have been following on a week by week basis. But I just went through about 3 years of Manga in one sitting. When I had orginally left the story was still early in the Konoha kids stages. Reading it all at once for the first time really gives a sense of the pacing. It is very choppy and multi-directional. Kishi is a terrific manga author when it comes to his ability to make interesting characters, endearing scenarios, very cool concepts etc. But he sucks terribly at overall plot.

[Rahan]

The reason it feels rushed is that there has been zero plot development for 150 chapters (From the beginning of Part 2 to Jiraiya heading to the Rain, nothing really happened plotwise ... Akatsuki were introduced and defeated right away, except Deidara who survived a little longer. The only exception is the introduction of Danzou)

Then, Kishi started pulling things out of his ass like crazy ... Naruto's parents and the key frog, Madara, the fundation of Konoha and the Uchiha massacre, the orphans and the Rinnegan, the Senjus appearing out of nowhere and most of them seem to have been simply retconned into the story without any explanation (I mean, Senju ?)

[Quzor]

The reason it feels rushed is that there has been zero plot development for 150 chapters (From the beginning of Part 2 to Jiraiya heading to the Rain, nothing really happened plotwise ... Akatsuki were introduced and defeated right away, except Deidara who survived a little longer. The only exception is the introduction of Danzou)

Then, Kishi started pulling things out of his ass like crazy ... Naruto's parents and the key frog, Madara, the fundation of Konoha and the Uchiha massacre, the orphans and the Rinnegan, the Senjus appearing out of nowhere and most of them seem to have been simply retconned into the story without any explanation (I mean, Senju ?)

Actually, I thought the Senju were integrated, quite well, into the story. They were given a relatively straight forward, but full backstory. All we knew was that Shodai was from a very talented clan, so Kishi had free license to create whatever kind of clan he wanted.

What I DIDN'T think was well integrated, was this whole Senju/Uchiha animosity. I mean, one guy spawned two clans that spawned ALL OF THE SHINOBI IN THE ENTIRE WORLD!?! Give me a freakin' break...

The whole idea of the Senju and Uchiha being fated to battle each other until the end of days is an interesting one, but that's just another example of Plot no Jutsu. Kishi needed a way to assure us that the fight between Sasuke and Naruto is going to happen. And, if it doesn't happen, he wanted to be sure that the readers would understand that they were blatantly fighting fate by it not happening.

It's very... remarkable, in an unbelievable kind of way. If he'd have said that Rikkudo-senin created his own clan, who split after he died, I'd have less trouble believing that. But no; one dude->two sons->millions of ninja. Somehow, that just doesn't jive...

[Rahan]

Actually, I thought the Senju were integrated, quite well, into the story. They were given a relatively straight forward, but full backstory. All we knew was that Shodai was from a very talented clan, so Kishi had free license to create whatever kind of clan he wanted..

The problem with the Senju is that they come out of nowhere ...
They were never mentioned before. The first or second databook even mentioned that the 4 noble clans of Konoha were Akimichi (Chouji) Aburame (Shino) Hyuuga and Uchiha. Where are the Senjus ? To anyone who actually read the databook, the Senju stink retcon.

We don't even know who they are or how many of them are left. Madara said they kept authority over Konoha, so are Sandaime and Yondaime Senju too ?

Also, the recent chapters make the Senju completely unbalanced.
So most likely Shodai like the Uchiha gained their bijuu bending ability from being descendant of the Master Jinchuuriki.
So why create a clone from Shodai and not a random Senju ? the Senju aren't even a clan, they are one guy. Tsunade and Nidaime are completely out of place in Madara's stories.

[james0246]

Yeah, the Senjuu are the biggest alterations from Part I to Part II (since all the Akatsuki info, and overall world info, has only been introduced in Part II, we can't comment fully on their alterations from the first Part to the second). I still think, though, that the Uchiha Clan history (i.e. basic non-Rikudou Sennin derived history) was well constructed (from Madara's reintroduction, to the MS controlling the Kyuubi, to the knowledge that all MS-weilders have the same techniques, etc).

That being said, the one thing that always bugged me is why Kishimoto altered his Akatsuki line-up from Part I to Part II. I guess it added a bit of "depth" to the story (the events in question appearing off screen make the world seem lived in), btu it always felt a little pointless to kill off one of the Akatsuki members before their arc even started...

[AuroraFlash]

He altered the Akatsuki-lineup? Was I sleeping? I didn't even notice.

[Slayerx]

Actually, I thought the Senju were integrated, quite well, into the story. They were given a relatively straight forward, but full backstory. All we knew was that Shodai was from a very talented clan, so Kishi had free license to create whatever kind of clan he wanted.

I have to disagree... What i find troubling with the Senju intergration is that fact that we had NEVER even heard of them before Itachi's story. If this clan was so famous and was responsible for great ninjas like the 1st and 2nd hokage, then why were we never told of them before... in fact we were never told that Shodai came from a talented clan as we only knew of him, his brother and tusnade; all powerful ninjas but they were the ONLY members of the senju family we have seen...

We have heard of so many clans in naruto... the uchiha and the hyuuga are the most famous in kohona, and then smaller clans from the former genins.... why were we never told of the senju? Why did we not meet these members... hell, the uchiha still hate the senju and yet as far as i can tell the clan has ceased to exist... that's the only explanation i can see for a lack of focus on it's members; that no ninja, including Tsunade considers themselves part of the senju as they merged with the rest of the village... which seems odd since so many other clans still distinguish themselves (not to mention what the senju did to the uchiha makes them seem like they had too much pride to throw their name away)... But y'know i feel that is not enough to really excuse the lack of mentioning... kishi didn't even seem fit to drop the name in passing... all in all, the Senju felt like they popped out of nowhere, something kishi pulled out of his ass at the last minute

Frankly, i feel like the senju were one of the things that kishi did not plan on, something he came up with sometime during part II instead of in the beginning like all great writers do... a better more prepared writer would have atleast dropped us the name... this is also how i've felt about Danzou, as he was a character that would have been much better to introduce in part I (very out of character to not try and make a grab for the throne after the 3rd died in a war brought on by his former pupil)


What I DIDN'T think was well integrated, was this whole Senju/Uchiha animosity. I mean, one guy spawned two clans that spawned ALL OF THE SHINOBI IN THE ENTIRE WORLD!?! Give me a freakin' break...

huh? when did he say that... He said that the one guy spawned the Senju clan and the Uchiha clan, not the rest of the ninjas in the world

the Senju aren't even a clan, they are one guy. Tsunade and Nidaime are completely out of place in Madara's stories.
heh, maybe Nidiame and Tsunade were adopted =p
But it's true, Shodia seems like he was the ONLY one in all of kohona (much less the senju) to inherit something great from the sage aside from the uchiha

Grant it, from your post, i'm starting to think that Yondiame WAS a senju and thus Naruto is a Senju... thus making him being part of the Senju vs Uchiha fate much more literal than figurative. And as such i can only assume that the great quality that the Senju gained "the sage's body" was high stamina since that's the only thing Naruto ever really had going for him... to which have to say, considering the Uchiha got the sharigan, and the godly powerful MS... the the younger son of the great sage got TOTALLY gipped

[james0246]

He altered the Akatsuki-lineup? Was I sleeping? I didn't even notice.

At the end of Part I (chapter 238), there is a brief little double page image of all the Akatsuki members (you can make out their silhouettes, but not their features). You can fill in the blanks, and find out who each character is. But, there is one character that has no Part II design (he is the really tall shadow in the double page standing next to Kisame and Konan...I think), he is simply a shadow figure in this one double page image. This member was killed off by Kakuzu sometime during the 2.5 year training trip (and Hidan replaces this unknown Akatsuki member). We don't know who this character is, what he could do, what his strengths were, etc, but he did exist for a time, which makes his disappearance a little weird...

[The-Wolf-Of-Mibu]

:D Nice catch

Another quick question. The space vortex jutsu which Kakashi used to destroy Deidara's arm ; - where does that jutsu fall in the progression of the sharingan? It seemed like an amazing jutsu. I was suprised Kakashi didn't use it again when fighting Hidan/Kakuzu. Is that a jutsu which is one of the sharingan techniques which Itachi yearned for when he supposedly killed shisui? Is it on the same level as Ameratsu/Tsukiyomi?

[james0246]

^The data books list Kakashi's MS technique (named Kamui) as being wholely unique to Kakashi (unlike the other MS techniques, which are listed as being Uchiha clan techniques (or at least techniques found amongst Uchiha Clan members)).

And yes, it is on the same "level" as Amaterasu/Tsukuyomi (in the respect that as long as the techniques hit, then the opponents will fall). In fact, there has been an ongoing debate as to whether Kamui can defeat Susano'o or not.

[Slayerx]

At the end of Part I (chapter 238), there is a brief little double page image of all the Akatsuki members (you can make out their silhouettes, but not their features). You can fill in the blanks, and find out who each character is. But, there is one character that has no Part II design (he is the really tall shadow in the double page standing next to Kisame and Konan...I think), he is simply a shadow figure in this one double page image. This member was killed off by Kakuzu sometime during the 2.5 year training trip (and Hidan replaces this unknown Akatsuki member). We don't know who this character is, what he could do, what his strengths were, etc, but he did exist for a time, which makes his disappearance a little weird...

Nice catch, though it could have actually just been a case of character design change on Kishi's part...
Kishi might have originally intended on Hidan being much larger and changed his mind... the dead previous member may have just been kishi retconing so no one would notice
we can even see that he drew Pain's eyes differently back then...

And hell look at deidara... his silhouette doesn't even look remotely human, and he is hanging upside down on the ceiling for some reason... he's wider, his feet look like their a fish tail or something and their are points sticking all over the place... seriously i have no idea what's going on with the form... Only reason you can tell it's deidara is because of his speech pattern ("...yeah")... could it be that Kishi was originally thinking something batlike before he chose to just have deidara fly around by way of clay birds? who knows... character design change (god knows i take forever to settle on a design)... though this is something he should have settled on before that page

[The-Wolf-Of-Mibu]

Funny thing about Akatsuki is that majority of them would not really be considered "evil". Even though they are S rank criminals, they do not come across as evil. Guys like Deidara, Hidan, and Kisame just seem wacky and interesting. Sasori, Kakuzu, Zetsu seemed a bit more sinister. Itachi , Pain, Konan are downright lovable. Even Madara is a mystery.

Only Oro was pure evil. I miss the that bastard

[Gin]

In other words, this could be Naruto's back door to defeating Madara/Jyuubi (how, I do not know. That's for the Toads to decide...:))...which we really do not need to worry about for quite awhile...:).

I think that it may be impossible to control the Jyuubi without sage chakra, Rikudou Sennin was called the sage of 6 paths after all, and as the inventor of chakra and all ninjutsu, I think he would have been able to use sage chakra.
Ero-Senn1n's post made me think that its possible that Nagato may have been aware of that fact but for some reason, chose not to tell Madara. Perhaps thats why he went a long with Madara after he read the monument, he was planning on letting the Jyuubi run wild.

So according to this Madara should not be able to read the final secret written on the monument since he does not have the rinnegan. Madara founded akatsuki around the time when Nagato lost his friend Yahiko. Madara never wanted to collect all the demons before Nagato's time. So it seems logical that Madara was not aware of the final secret on the monument before he did show it to Nagato and Nagato read it. The only problem with this is that Nagato says he wanted a super-weapon of mass destruction, instead of saying that he wants Madara to bring peace to the world for eternity, since Madara is immortal while Nagato is not.

[Rahan]

So the Uchiha have their rock ...

Could the Senju equivalent be the scroll Naruto stole in the first chapter ? It's allegedly left behind by Shodai, but it could be older Senju stuff.

It concerns sealing / unsealing beasts (the villagers were scared Naruto would use it to unseal the Kyuubi) and it contains jutsus Naruto (who could be a Senju) mastered with ease despite being completely untalented.

And it makes sense actually. The Uchiha have the power to control them, the Senju the power to stop them in case of.

[Quzor]

huh? when did he say that... He said that the one guy spawned the Senju clan and the Uchiha clan, not the rest of the ninjas in the world

I'm just using reverse logic here. Ridukou-sennin was the original shinobi. Before him, there were no ninja. Hence, there was no one with the ability to manipulate chakra. Rikudou-sennin spawned the Senju and Uchiha clans, when he passed his abilities on to his sons. However, those two would be the only existing shinobi from the point of Rikudou-sennin's death, onward. So they went off and formed their own clans, and the ninja world expanded thusly.

I don't know, maybe it's faulty logic but, in my mind, it stands to reason that the whole shinobi world was spawned from these two people, who were in turn spawned from Rikudou-sennin.

[Slayerx]

'm just using reverse logic here. Ridukou-sennin was the original shinobi. Before him, there were no ninja. Hence, there was no one with the ability to manipulate chakra. Rikudou-sennin spawned the Senju and Uchiha clans, when he passed his abilities on to his sons. However, those two would be the only existing shinobi from the point of Rikudou-sennin's death, onward. So they went off and formed their own clans, and the ninja world expanded thusly.

I see what your saying, i was thinking you were being a bit more literaly with the term "spawn"...

but anyway, it is actually somewhat believable... take a look at the real world... You look at religion and you have entire world wide beliefs started what is but one single man... look at various inventions and discoveries... discovery of gravity, the theory of relativity, the discovery of electricity, the creation of the phone, the creation of film.... all this and more was started by ONE man before anyone else, and the rest just followed what he did... it could be argued that we had the means to do some of these things years before the inventor did, but no one had the creative thinking to see it for themselves

And when talking about Ninja's we are not just talking about manipulating chakra but HOW it is manipulated... For instance, while Rikudou-Sennin is created for creating the ninja world, we also have other forms of chakra manipulation from the samurai. Perhaps the samurai actually predate the ninjas, and that was what countries use to use; samurai and their chakra weapons may have been the old standard... Rikudou-Sennin's eyes may have allowed him to see something no one else was able to figure out, namely a different way to manipulate the charka, manipulating it through the use of animal seals to produce incredible new and powerful effects... People may have known how to manpulate chakra, but they only saw it's ability to create weapons, or increase physical ability; they never realized that they could warp it in such a way.... they did not realize that when you put your hands in a different position it can change and warp the chakra... hell it could be the case that the Sage's eye's allowed the sage to see or feel the chakra flow like no one else, and thus allowed him to noticed the changes

[The-Wolf-Of-Mibu]

I see what your saying, i was thinking you were being a bit more literaly with the term "spawn"...

but anyway, it is actually somewhat believable... take a look at the real world... You look at religion and you have entire world wide beliefs started what is but one single man... look at various inventions and discoveries... discovery of gravity, the theory of relativity, the discovery of electricity, the creation of the phone, the creation of film.... all this and more was started by ONE man before anyone else, and the rest just followed what he did... it could be argued that we had the means to do some of these things years before the inventor did, but no one had the creative thinking to give it a try

And when talking about Ninja's we are not just talking about manipulating chakra but HOW it is manipulated... For instance, while Rikudou-Sennin is created for creating the ninja world, we also have other forms of chakra manipulation from the samurai. Perhaps the samurai actually predate the ninjas, and that was what countries use to use; samurai and their chakra weapons may have been the old standard... Rikudou-Sennin's eyes may have allowed him to see something no one else was able to figure out, namely a different way to manipulate the charka, manipulating it through the use of animal seals to produce incredible new and powerful effects... People may have known how to manpulate chakra, but they only saw it's ability to create weapons, or increase physical ability; they never realized that they could warp it in such a way.... they did not realize that when you put your hands in a different position it can change and warp the chakra... hell it could be the case that the Sage's eye's allowed the sage to see or feel the chakra flow like no one else, and thus allowed him to noticed the changes

I think theres a difference between the entire ninja world genetically arising from Uchiha/Sen. The manga said that Rikudou was the first to develop all the ninja techniques. I don't think he invented "chakra". He just invented the techniques which allowed you to tap into that chakra.

Look at Lee. He has no talent in controlling his chakra with ninjitsu/genjutusu, but the still has chakra. When he opens his gates he is tapping into chakra.

So maybe Uchiha/Senju were the first clan to learn the techiques invented by Rikudou. Then over time that knowledge spread to other countries where people who had the talent to be ninjas were able to learn them. Then over more time various shinobi clans/groups arose.

It's not to say that every ninja was genetically in direct lineage of Senju/Uchiha. But rather those were the first students of the guy who first learned to manipulate chakra and invented all the techniques.

[Yoko Takeo]

I'm just using reverse logic here. Ridukou-sennin was the original shinobi. Before him, there were no ninja. Hence, there was no one with the ability to manipulate chakra. Rikudou-sennin spawned the Senju and Uchiha clans, when he passed his abilities on to his sons. However, those two would be the only existing shinobi from the point of Rikudou-sennin's death, onward. So they went off and formed their own clans, and the ninja world expanded thusly.

I don't know, maybe it's faulty logic but, in my mind, it stands to reason that the whole shinobi world was spawned from these two people, who were in turn spawned from Rikudou-sennin.

If that's true, it makes me curious to know exactly how ninjas came about in other countries, considering there were only two ninjas following Rikudo Sennin's death and both of them in the Fire country. It would've been pretty tough on them actually. I wouldn't say for sure that the Sennin's sons were the only two people who knew Ninjutsu and other ninja arts. I'm quite tempted to believe that he had other students from all around the world who heard of his power and knowledge and became his students in addition to his sons, and those students eventually spread the Sennin's teachings in their own country. It's another possibility from the way I see it.

[AuroraFlash]

At the end of Part I (chapter 238), there is a brief little double page image of all the Akatsuki members (you can make out their silhouettes, but not their features). You can fill in the blanks, and find out who each character is. But, there is one character that has no Part II design (he is the really tall shadow in the double page standing next to Kisame and Konan...I think), he is simply a shadow figure in this one double page image. This member was killed off by Kakuzu sometime during the 2.5 year training trip (and Hidan replaces this unknown Akatsuki member). We don't know who this character is, what he could do, what his strengths were, etc, but he did exist for a time, which makes his disappearance a little weird...

Except he turns out to be very alive, which I personally doubt, but could still turn out to be true. I have to investigate on that one.

[rajin]

If that's true, it makes me curious to know exactly how ninjas came about in other countries, considering there were only two ninjas following Rikudo Sennin's death and both of them in the Fire country. It would've been pretty tough on them actually. I wouldn't say for sure that the Sennin's sons were the only two people who knew Ninjutsu and other ninja arts. I'm quite tempted to believe that he had other students from all around the world who heard of his power and knowledge and became his students in addition to his sons, and those students eventually spread the Sennin's teachings in their own country. It's another possibility from the way I see it.


rikkudo senin was a traveler

he traveled all the naruto world places

solved issues of conflicts

developed the ninjutsu

teach ninjutsu to those who needed most

by that way he make it perfect that no one will take advantage of these jutsu

i mean right of equality

at last he was got sick by not only experimenting with chkara levels but by rinnegan too

also 10 tailed beast was a heavy toll on his body

because 10 tailed beast chakra is very much poisonous like the nine tailed fox chakra

no matter you believe or not

but beasts chakra's are way different from human chakra

hence all beasts are dangerous for humans

whether they do something or not

only the nine tailed demon fox dislike and hate humans

and from decades attacked on human societies sated by kishimoto himself in manga

[Rurik]

I don't think what Oro ressurected were true representations of the 1st/2nd. They were zombies devoid of emotions which used some cookie cutter 1st/2nd techniques. Shells of their former selves. It would make zero sense that Oro would be able to truly ressurect zombies equally powerful to the original 1st/2nd. If that were the case he would use them in every fight and almost always win.

Wow, Wolf of milbu...good to have you onboard again...I makes me recall those good old days where Hunter was not even a Mod, and there was actually a Raikage posting around...:)

[Spicy~Noodles]

I always knew a jewbi was the most powerful entity in the world. Gotta love the eye of the jew.

[rajin]

rikkudo senin was a traveler

he traveled all the naruto world places

solved issues of conflicts

developed the ninjutsu

teach ninjutsu to those who needed most

by that way he make it perfect that no one will take advantage of these jutsu

i mean right of equality

at last he was got sick by not only experimenting with chkara levels but by rinnegan too

also 10 tailed beast was a heavy toll on his body

because 10 tailed beast chakra is very much poisonous like the nine tailed fox chakra

no matter you believe or not

but beasts chakra's are way different from human chakra

hence all beasts are dangerous for humans

whether they do something or not

only the nine tailed demon fox dislike and hate humans

and from decades attacked on human societies sated by kishimoto himself in manga

so main fact is that kishi is after chapter 446 is out of mind
in 448 chapter he revived everyone (at that time i it looked like dbz)

after that so many twists and turns(actually most twists(over 90%) were to much predictable that most of us didn't surprised by them )

also many more flaws and loop holes in the series
kishi is creating more and more questions but didn't answered the previous questions yet

the main reason for naruto manag become a sinking ship are

1. kishi lost interest in naruto series
2. kishi is thinking to start a new manga series
3. kishi has some personnel problems( i mean he is not mentally into manga)
4. presurre from publishers
5. kishi becomes too much greedy
6. one piece beat out naruto in recent chapters with fairly high margins
7. they are taking data from fan fictions and forums and twisting story according to it

so i believe watching and reading these bad shaped chapters it is better that kishi must take a break(around 2 months) and rest and free his ind so that next time he will come with more logic and great ideas

[The-Wolf-Of-Mibu]

Wow, Wolf of milbu...good to have you onboard again...I makes me recall those good old days where Hunter was not even a Mod, and there was actually a Raikage posting around...:)

Thanks Rurik. Your memory is ace. Lol hunter was always pretty bossy. He was destined for modship. :D

[Yoko Takeo]

rikkudo senin was a traveler

he traveled all the naruto world places

solved issues of conflicts

developed the ninjutsu

teach ninjutsu to those who needed most

by that way he make it perfect that no one will take advantage of these jutsu

i mean right of equality

at last he was got sick by not only experimenting with chkara levels but by rinnegan too

also 10 tailed beast was a heavy toll on his body

because 10 tailed beast chakra is very much poisonous like the nine tailed fox chakra

no matter you believe or not

but beasts chakra's are way different from human chakra

hence all beasts are dangerous for humans

whether they do something or not

only the nine tailed demon fox dislike and hate humans

and from decades attacked on human societies sated by kishimoto himself in manga

That's what I'm thinking pretty much. I doubt Rikudo Sennin learned ninjutsu all by himself. I'm willing to bet that he travelled around the world a lot and learned unique abilities from many different types of warriors and eventually developped ninjutsu, teaching it to people in need or people who he deemed worthy, like a wandering martial arts master. I doubt he only taught two people who were more concerned with forming their clans rather than teaching people elsewhere.

[rajin]

i think that as we know tailed beasts looked like animals

indeed they are animals of chakra's

but 1o tailed isn't a beast

moreover it has shape like humans

it is very difficult to capture and control the 10 tail

why ?

all will say because of chakra

the answers is that

maybe it has characteristics like humans

i mean courage,anger,cruelty,rudeness
sound planner
evil thoughts
negative chakra

mainly tailed beats has mind but they talk less of try to convince their jinchuriki less
except 9 tail who always provoked naruto and always made plan for freedom

but 10 tail has mind
he use it a lot
he give temptations
he bind u into his/her own genjutsu
the 10 tailed genjutus is the human temptations

that's why even messiah couldn't controlled him

because so6p feared of him by the day when he started to knowing him.

so6p knew that someday he will be slave of his own temptations and will be unable to control the 10 tail again

[rajin]

which tablet is madara sama talking about
and how to read it

my theory

that tablet can be the rest place of so6p

i mean so6p graveyard

and there will be some stone engraved on it with symbol no one can dycrypt until u have true eyes

by true eye mean "i don't know"

maybe eternal eye's
maybe one byakugan and one sharingan eye
maybe the one who has ms can read it

i wanna say when u watched thar mesage with ms eye
it open a memory(more simplify by me as a genjtsu video)
and u hear a voice giving directions and stating objectives

[The Small One]

I think that it may be impossible to control the Jyuubi without sage chakra, Rikudou Sennin was called the sage of 6 paths after all, and as the inventor of chakra and all ninjutsu, I think he would have been able to use sage chakra.

I hope not.
It'S already hard to believe, that he invented the whole use of chakra on his own and single-handedly defeted the most powerful monster ever.
To think that he also knew about sage chakra seems a bit too farfetched. (And why did he never tell anyone about it?)

[rajin]

watch rikkudo history

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/5881/grapihc.png

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/5881/grapihc.png

[Typeblue]

Minato disagrees.

It just mean the current (including the recently dead like Minato or the sannins) ninjas are complete thrash compared to Shodai / old Madara ...

Tsuchikage thought Madara by himself had enough power to rule the world ...
Even damaged, Madara remains unbeatable for the likes of Minato.

Old generations surpassing the previous ones, my ass ...
It's funny it's Konoha's ideology when each of their kage seem to be weaker than the previous one ...

Your comment sounds like when old folks say: "in my time things were alot better".

The truth in in the Naruto verse theres no way to accurately gauge strength. Madara is strong , but by the end of the Manga, Naruto, or Naruto + sasuke will be defeating him.

Will it mean then that Naruto is the strongest...hardly. I think any of the 5 hokages will give Madara a run for his money even if he was healthy. And he would be stupid to take them lightly, which he doesn't

[Sabaku Kyu]

I hope not.
It'S already hard to believe, that he invented the whole use of chakra on his own and single-handedly defeted the most powerful monster ever.
To think that he also knew about sage chakra seems a bit too farfetched. (And why did he never tell anyone about it?)

It could be that it was lost through the generations because very few people have the chakra capacity to use it in the first place. Also, under most circumstances, the training is extremely dangerous--you will either turn into a frog, or worse you'll turn into stone.

[Cub-Sama]

@AuroraFlash: Don't worry, Shounen Jump has a series of witch doctors and voodoo shaman on staff just incase one of their mangaka dies before completing a series. Sadly, it takes a few months in-between resurrections (which explains Togashi's constant absences).

That explains why Kubo is still around he died 1 year ago got resurrected and is trying to make the story as bad as possible so he can finally die.

I hope not.
It'S already hard to believe, that he invented the whole use of chakra on his own and single-handedly defeted the most powerful monster ever.
To think that he also knew about sage chakra seems a bit too farfetched. (And why did he never tell anyone about it?)

The thing I want to know is where did R. Sennin get all this stuff from, saying it is a genetic mutation or something he discovered seems too far-fetched (super chakra, super body, super eyes, super skills)

[Quzor]

If that's true, it makes me curious to know exactly how ninjas came about in other countries, considering there were only two ninjas following Rikudo Sennin's death and both of them in the Fire country. It would've been pretty tough on them actually. I wouldn't say for sure that the Sennin's sons were the only two people who knew Ninjutsu and other ninja arts. I'm quite tempted to believe that he had other students from all around the world who heard of his power and knowledge and became his students in addition to his sons, and those students eventually spread the Sennin's teachings in their own country. It's another possibility from the way I see it.

It's certainly a possibility, I'm just going on the information we've been given thus far. And really, that's my whole problem with the manga right now; all this new information is coming to light, seemingly out of nowhere.

The history of Rikudou-sennin has always been mysterious, from the very first time he was mentioned. Now, all of a sudden, we're going to be flooded with all of this information about him, with no real frame of reference to the character. In most stories I read, information about characters involved in an event like this is leaked very slowly and subtly, so that when the big reveal happens, you're quite surprised. All of this happening right now is not surprising in the least, because we weren't expecting it. We have absolutely no frame of reference to think that anything like this would even happen. It's just...confusing.

[SeanQ]

I'm a bit confused...is Madara the Senin's son and the brother of Hashirama? And why is he the only one that knows about this...you'd think something this important would be documented or something for all to know...

[james0246]

It could be that it was lost through the generations because very few people have the chakra capacity to use it in the first place. Also, under most circumstances, the training is extremely dangerous--you will either turn into a frog, or worse you'll turn into stone.

I don't know...turning into a statue seems pretty good in comparison to a Toad...

The thing I want to know is where did R. Sennin get all this stuff from, saying it is a genetic mutation or something he discovered seems too far-fetched (super chakra, super body, super eyes, super skills)

Obviously they (Rikudou Sennin and the Jyuubi) are aliens. I mean, Duh.

...Though I guess they could also be interdimensional travelers...

[Goshin]

or they could be deities. i'm begining to think that the monster we see behind the uchihas are probably the jyuubi. maybe it was once he absorbed the jyuubi that he got super eyes and stuff.

[james0246]

or they could be deities. i'm begining to think that the monster we see behind the uchihas are probably the jyuubi. maybe it was once he absorbed the jyuubi that he got super eyes and stuff.

Gods? Boring. Space Mutants? Cool.

[Mists]

Why would Madara reveal his plans to the ninja world? Did he even get to to Nagato?!?

I'd rather Madara reveal it to himself or a new akatsuki that is all for his plans than put a target on his back as well as an urgency of time and protection of the remaining beasts.

He's like "Yes, this is my plan...Listen whole Ninja world!"

So now the ninja world knows they could protect the Beasts easily and rebel? Or does Madara want to cause a civil war because he honestly believes the ninja world would be twisted by his plans because of all that happened (ie, he built up Akatsuki to cause problems and death so the ninja world would see that his solution is the only way...)

Yet I find it hard to believe anyone would rather live in Genjutsu...

So again, why is Madara doing the typical badguy mistake!?!

Just something I remembered. Nagato did know about the Sage, he mentioned the Sage created the moon himself and Nagato used the same jutsu

[Slave0fLife]

^
Actually, I'm still hoping that Madara pulls a Ozymandias and goes "Why am I telling you this? I already did what I had to do 10 minutes ago...", although I'm finding that a bit hard to do at the moment.

[That Other Ninja]

^
Actually, I'm still hoping that Madara pulls a Ozymandias and goes "Why am I telling you this? I already did what I had to do 10 minutes ago...", although I'm finding that a bit hard to do at the moment.
No, because that would imply the Kish has writing skills.

Watchmen is beyond anything he could accomplish.

[james0246]

^That's really not saying much considering that the majority of the comics/manga out there do not match up to Watchmen. It would be like comparing a Stephen King novel to John Milton or William Shakespeare (not that Alan Moore is necessarily in the same league as Milton or Shakespeare) - of course King is lesser than these giants, and Kishimoto is lesser than someone like Moore (or Frank Miller or Takehiko Inoue, etc).

[Cub-Sama]

Obviously they (Rikudou Sennin and the Jyuubi) are aliens. I mean, Duh.

...Though I guess they could also be interdimensional travelers...

Rikodou Sennin is the child of something that dropped on Earth hidden away by everyone codenamed 'Jenova'.

That's what I'm thinking pretty much. I doubt Rikudo Sennin learned ninjutsu all by himself. I'm willing to bet that he travelled around the world a lot and learned unique abilities from many different types of warriors and eventually developped ninjutsu, teaching it to people in need or people who he deemed worthy, like a wandering martial arts master. I doubt he only taught two people who were more concerned with forming their clans rather than teaching people elsewhere.

The thing is from what people have said he was the first one to learn how to mould chakra and taught everyone that all things have chakra etc...meaning that he must of created most of the techniques known by people today and he spread his teachings to everyone and gave his sons the 2 main powers.

I think it would be funny if Madara takes off his mask in front of the Mizukage and she bows to him and agrees to help him.

[That Other Ninja]

^That's really not saying much considering that the majority of the comics/manga out there do not match up to Watchmen. It would be like comparing a Stephen King novel to John Milton or William Shakespeare (not that Alan Moore is necessarily in the same league as Milton or Shakespeare) - of course King is lesser than these giants, and Kishimoto is lesser than someone like Moore (or Frank Miller or Takehiko Inoue, etc).
? That's reiterating what I said.

[james0246]

^Your focus on Kishimoto as if he is at fault for not matching a master is a bit silly. In reality we shouldn't even be comparing them, and, in fact, very few if any can actually be compared to Moore. So, it makes no sense to try to compare them. Now, if you would have said Kishimoto is less than Oda, or Ohba, etc (all contemporaries of Kishimoto), then you might have had an actual argument, but, otherwise, you are simply trying to condemn something average and fun for not being great and life-changing.

[Fipskuul]

The thing that I like the best about this chapter is that we are finally getting some kind of focus. Now, we know what the final goal is and what needs to be done to stop/prevent it.

The worst part is the ignorance that Kishi showed, once again, towards Byagukan. Now, we need to start wondering why in the h... he created that eye technique in the first place and advertised it as one of the greatest.

[ChojinLocke]

If you believe ..
they put a man in the moon..
man in the moon..

Kishimoto likes REM it seems...

I wanna see spaceman Madara versus the fantastic 11.

Btw why are people complaining about Kubo so much..I think Bleach is doing much better than Naruto (if we discount the fillers).

[Quzor]

Btw why are people complaining about Kubo so much..I think Bleach is doing much better than Naruto (if we discount the fillers).

Hell...even if you match up Naruto fillers to Bleach fillers, Bleach is superior. At least the Bleach anime team admits that they're fillers, and doesn't necessarily try to fit them in to the story as if they were canon.

I'm a bit confused...is Madara the Senin's son and the brother of Hashirama? And why is he the only one that knows about this...you'd think something this important would be documented or something for all to know...Madara is a descendant of one of the sons of Rikudou-sennin; Hashirama is a descendant of the other.

Side note: Any possibility that Itachi knew about the Jyuubi long before we were introduced to the idea of it? He's always had crows (by the barrel-ful at times) as part of his genjutsu. Is that something he'd be able to control, or are crows just a byproduct of sharingan genjutsu's of that nature?

[james0246]

^The crow thing was actually a bad early translation (of Kankuro's name at that). The real Jyuubi seems to have one eye and body similar to the Kyuubi.

[That Other Ninja]

^Your focus on Kishimoto as if he is at fault for not matching a master is a bit silly. In reality we shouldn't even be comparing them, and, in fact, very few if any can actually be compared to Moore. So, it makes no sense to try to compare them. Now, if you would have said Kishimoto is less than Oda, or Ohba, etc (all contemporaries of Kishimoto), then you might have had an actual argument, but, otherwise, you are simply trying to condemn something average and fun for not being great and life-changing.
Lol i'm not the one that brought up Watchmen. I just said Kishimoto's writing isn't very good. And why can't I compare Kishimoto to Moore? Because you said so? I don't see where the line is drawn that these two authors of illustrated serial literature can't be compared, just because Alan Moore is fucking Alan moore. If I was condemning Naruto I wouldn't be reading it, let alone going over this stupid tirade you're having because Watchmen was brought up and again, something I didn't initiate to begin with other then saying Moore is great, which is the same shit you're saying. And as far as comparing Kish to Oda, I have and have claimed in the past the One Piece is better. But way to jump an argument on me out of nowhere.

So completely random.

[Quzor]

^The crow thing was actually a bad early translation (of Kankuro's name at that). The real Jyuubi seems to have one eye and body similar to the Kyuubi.

Ahh, missed that bit. Thanks for the clarification.

Side note: So much hate all of a sudden. Can't we all just get along!? :heh:

[james0246]

Lol i'm not the one that brought up Watchmen. I just said Kishimoto's writing isn't very good. And why can't I compare Kishimoto to Moore? Because you said so? I don't see where the line is drawn that these two authors of illustrated serial literature can't be compared, just because Alan Moore is fucking Alan moore. If I was condemning Naruto I wouldn't be reading it, let alone going over this stupid tirade you're having because Watchmen was brought up and again, something I didn't initiate to begin with other then saying Moore is great, which is the same shit you're saying. And as far as comparing Kish to Oda, I have and have claimed in the past the One Piece is better. But way to jump an argument on me out of nowhere.

So completely random.

Your rant is really unexpected. I generally 'read' you as a fairly calm poster, so I am not sure where your vitriol is coming from...I'm not really arguing with you...well I guess that is not true since I do disagree with your intial post :)...rather I think you are inapproriately analyzing/comparing Kishimoto...

Maybe I am not explaining myself properly. Comparing a pulp comic (which almost all Shounen manga is) to anything but a pulp comic will always lead to a very negative stance concerning said pulp comic (i.e. the pulp comic will always look bad in comparison to "higher art"). That is why I said it is unfair (and a little silly) to compare the two.

Or, to put it another way, would you really compare a film like Citizen Kane to a film like Transformers 2?

edit: I am not trying to be negative or offensive. If you read me as being such, please tell me and I will edit my post accordingly...

[That Other Ninja]

Your rant is really unexpected. I generally 'read' you as a fairly calm poster, so I am not sure where your vitriol is coming from...I'm not arguing with you...well I guess that is not true since I do disagree with your intial post :)...

That being said, maybe I am not explaining myself properly. Comparing a pulp comic (which almost all Shounen manga is) to anything but a pulp comic will always lead to a very negative stance concerning said pulp comic (i.e. the pulp comic will always look bad in comparison to "higher art"). That is why I said it is unfair (and a little silly) to compare the two.

Or, to put it another way, would you really compare a film like Citizen Kane to a film like Transformers 2?
I've been working all day. I'm tired and yeah, call me flabbergasted considering I was praising the old fart.

Critically, comparing them is silly. I wouldn't call my statement a comparison of the two since I said in a joking manner (which didn't get across) that he would never achieve something like Watchmen and by all accounts its true.

It's not likely so yeah, in my mind I wasn't comparing I was stating the blatant obvious.

[james0246]

^Okay, then it was my misunderstanding. I apologies.

---

That being said, I have 2 quick points/questions of interests for this chapter's spoilers:

1) Madara mentions that Rikudou Sennin developed not only the concept of the Jinchuuriki, but also the sealing method for creating the Jinchuuriki. So, does that mean the Seal that Minato used to seal away the Kyuubi is, in fact, the same seal that Rikudou Sennin used, or is Minato's seal different?

2) What is the Shinigami? Is the Shinigami actually a God, or something else? Where does it fit into a universe that has creatures like the Rikudou Sennin and the Jyuubi? Also, both the Shinigami and Rikudou Sennin appear to have horns...are they connected somehow?

[Gin]

Or, to put it another way, would you really compare a film like Citizen Kane to a film like Transformers 2?


Woah, james, calm down. Transformers 2 was one of the best movies of all time. (I'm too lazy to make Kanye pics right now, so please imagine that I made one for Transformers 2 and also the Watchmen)

[That Other Ninja]

^Okay, then it was my misunderstanding. I apologies.
It's cool brah, I overreacted.

Woah, james, calm down. Transformers 2 was one of the best movies of all time. (I'm too lazy to make Kanye pics right now, so please imagine that I made one for Transformers 2 and also the Watchmen)

And damned me if I hear another Transformers 2 praise for the life of me! :frustrated:

I really do hope the Hyuuga's are mentioned in at least passing about this whole secret tablet and what have you.

[Jaieni]

Is it me or does this chapter sound like a really bad fanfic?

[Sabaku Kyu]

Critically, comparing them is silly. I wouldn't call my statement a comparison of the two since I said in a joking manner (which didn't get across) that he would never achieve something like Watchmen and by all accounts its true.


I wouldn't necessarily say that. Writing a shounen series comes with a lot of restraints. Because of the target demographic there's strict limits on sex, violence and taboo topics, not to mention on how complicated the story can be. The characters have to be marketable to sell merchandise, and the story arcs span for years (Watchmen was just something like twelve issues).

We don't know what Kishimoto is capable of producing given complete artistic freedom and I wouldn't hold Naruto to be the limit of his writing (I think he did in fact mention that he wanted to pursue a more mature story that he actually conceived before Naruto). Imagine if Alan Moore had to write for a Saturday morning cartoon show. You think the result could be anything like Watchmen and stay on the air?




1) Madara mentions that Rikudou Sennin developed not only the concept of the Jinchuuriki, but also the sealing method for creating the Jinchuuriki. So, does that mean the Seal that Minato used to seal away the Kyuubi is, in fact, the same seal that Rikudou Sennin used, or is Minato's seal different?

I think there's different methods to seal a bijuu. Rikudou Sennin just developed the concept. Chiyo sealed the Ichibi into Gaara using some unknown method and I guess the other villages have various methods too. Minato used Shiki Fuujin to seal the Kyuubi because of the circumstances. I doubt that's what was originally used since you give up your own life for that.

[Rawrz]

So Uchiha Madara's greatest plan was just planting a subliminal message on the moon? A completely new and unique villiainous motive.Im impressed that he is not trying to destroy the world thou.

[Slayerx]

I wouldn't necessarily say that. Writing a shounen series comes with a lot of restraints. Because of the target demographic there's strict limits on sex, violence and taboo topics, not to mention on how complicated the story can be. The characters have to be marketable to sell merchandise, and the story arcs span for years (Watchmen was just something like twelve issues).

We don't know what Kishimoto is capable of producing given complete artistic freedom and I wouldn't hold Naruto to be the limit of his writing

not enough artistic freedom, etc... i really do not think that is enough of an excuse... I mean, i think we have pointed out more then enough stupid decisions that kishi has made throughout this series to say that "Naruto" could be A LOT better; and that's without raising it to a higher demographic

Furthermore, you don't need sex, violence and so forth to create something brilliant.... granted i won't be able to judge against watchmen until i read the comics (which i plan to later this month), but i don't think you need to cater to adults to get off something really meaningful; though i can't really think much of an examples... i mean, it does feel like kishi is trying to say something about the nature of war with the whole cycle of hatred thing, it's just falling apart from how he's doing it... Kishi has been able to use his target demographic to bring up the issue of war, and when you can obtain atleast that level of seriousness, i don't think there is much stopping you from really saying something meaningful and creating complex characters and situations and what-not

Imagine if Alan Moore had to write for a Saturday morning cartoon show. You think the result could be anything like Watchmen and stay on the air?

I couldn't resist (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDDHHrt6l4w)

[That Other Ninja]

I wouldn't necessarily say that. Writing a shounen series comes with a lot of restraints. Because of the target demographic there's strict limits on sex, violence and taboo topics, not to mention on how complicated the story can be. The characters have to be marketable to sell merchandise, and the story arcs span for years (Watchmen was just something like twelve issues).

We don't know what Kishimoto is capable of producing given complete artistic freedom and I wouldn't hold Naruto to be the limit of his writing (I think he did in fact mention that he wanted to pursue a more mature story that he actually conceived before Naruto). Imagine if Alan Moore had to write for a Saturday morning cartoon show. You think the result could be anything like Watchmen and stay on the air?
I hear what you're saying but even with the artistic freedom, I still don't think he could compete with Moore.

[Fipskuul]

We don't know what Kishimoto is capable of producing given complete artistic freedom and I wouldn't hold Naruto to be the limit of his writing....I think Naruto is his limit. Any other series with his hand would born as a death row inmate.

[El_Frenchie]

Btw why are people complaining about Kubo so much..I think Bleach is doing much better than Naruto (if we discount the fillers).

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha... ah...

Man you're good.

[Apollian]

Lol...spoiler sounds so silly...
Where does Sasuke fall into this plan...?

it seems Madara
wants to do what Orochimaru wanted to do, which is take Sasuke's body.
Madara did say that his body was broken with his fight against the original
Hokage, Hashirama at Vally of the End....so maybe thats why he wants
Sasuke.

[AuroraFlash]

it seems Madara
wants to do what Orochimaru wanted to do, which is take Sasuke's body.
Madara did say that his body was broken with his fight against the original
Hokage, Hashirama at Vally of the End....so maybe thats why he wants
Sasuke.

I suspected that a long time ago. They're always after his body, because it's the most fresh and vital Uchiha body in the world and it seems Sasuke's body has good genetic material. Sasuke's sharingan skills are impressive, he's handsome and he has two arms and two legs and both eyes (which might be most important).

In my humble opinion, Madara is a body switcher. He either uses a similar technique to Orochimaru's or a technique related to Shraringan/MS/EMS.
Of course he needs Uchiha bodies. He could not just take a normal body since he'd probably lose his powers.

[The-Wolf-Of-Mibu]

I suspected that a long time ago. They're always after his body, because it's the most fresh and vital Uchiha body in the world and it seems Sasuke's body has good genetic material. Sasuke's sharingan skills are impressive, he's handsome and he has two arms and two legs and both eyes (which might be most important).

In my humble opinion, Madara is a body switcher. He either uses a similar technique to Orochimaru's or a technique related to Shraringan/MS/EMS.
Of course he needs Uchiha bodies. He could not just take a normal body since he'd probably lose his powers.

Hmm interesting. Maybe thats why Madara is going out of his way to help Naruto. He even brought up the whole Senju vs Uchiha "clash of destiny" conversation. Sasuke vs Naruto as some fated end-all fight that will have to happen. Perhaps Madara cannot forcefully take over Sasuke's body. It has to be a willing thing. And he knows sasuke will not give it up willingly (see orochimaru) unless he has a reason. Maybe Madara knows more about Naruto than anyone else and knows Sasuke will never be able to defeat him. So he builds them both up in power while making their hate of each other grow, and then at the end he tells Sasuke the only way he wins if he "merges" or lets Madara take over his body.

Speculation.

[Apollian]

I suspected that a long time ago. They're always after his body, because it's the most fresh and vital Uchiha body in the world and it seems Sasuke's body has good genetic material. Sasuke's sharingan skills are impressive, he's handsome and he has two arms and two legs and both eyes (which might be most important).

In my humble opinion, Madara is a body switcher. He either uses a similar technique to Orochimaru's or a technique related to Shraringan/MS/EMS.
Of course he needs Uchiha bodies. He could not just take a normal body since he'd probably lose his powers.


if he needed Uchiha bodies, why did he go forward with wiping out his clan?.
sooner or later he'd know that he would lose his powers with no Uchiha
DNA trail left behind... wouldn't it have made sense to create Akatski
members from the Uchiha Nin, that would have made them invincible,
plus given him and Ictachi a good supply of eyes if they were to struggle.
the only reason I could think of is that Madara knew Orochimaru was after
a Uchiha body too, and thus planned to wipe out the clan to make sure
the race to god-like powers was for a sole remaining survivor that he
himself had first dibs on in Sasuke.

[Apollian]

I suspected that a long time ago. They're always after his body, because it's the most fresh and vital Uchiha body in the world and it seems Sasuke's body has good genetic material. Sasuke's sharingan skills are impressive, he's handsome and he has two arms and two legs and both eyes (which might be most important).

In my humble opinion, Madara is a body switcher. He either uses a similar technique to Orochimaru's or a technique related to Shraringan/MS/EMS.
Of course he needs Uchiha bodies. He could not just take a normal body since he'd probably lose his powers.

Hmm interesting. Maybe thats why Madara is going out of his way to help Naruto. He even brought up the whole Senju vs Uchiha "clash of destiny" conversation. Sasuke vs Naruto as some fated end-all fight that will have to happen. Perhaps Madara cannot forcefully take over Sasuke's body. It has to be a willing thing. And he knows sasuke will not give it up willingly (see orochimaru) unless he has a reason. Maybe Madara knows more about Naruto than anyone else and knows Sasuke will never be able to defeat him. So he builds them both up in power while making their hate of each other grow, and then at the end he tells Sasuke the only way he wins if he "merges" or lets Madara take over his body.

Speculation.


agreed,
Madara knows that Naruto has mastered Senjutsu, and Sasuke cannot
defeat Naruto in this state....so there was a guide line that Madara set for
Sasuke....that once he reached the level of Susanoo, Madara then knew
Sasuke was ready to be a vessel that could contain Madara's current power.

[Yoko Takeo]

I suspected that a long time ago. They're always after his body, because it's the most fresh and vital Uchiha body in the world and it seems Sasuke's body has good genetic material. Sasuke's sharingan skills are impressive, he's handsome and he has two arms and two legs and both eyes (which might be most important).

In my humble opinion, Madara is a body switcher. He either uses a similar technique to Orochimaru's or a technique related to Shraringan/MS/EMS.
Of course he needs Uchiha bodies. He could not just take a normal body since he'd probably lose his powers.

If Madara's a body switcher, he'd have switched to other Uchiha bodies before already because don't forget that he's over 90. If he really sustained as many injuries as he did in his fight with Hashirama, he'd have had to switch bodies at least once. His original body, with the injuries he received, wouldn't have lasted long after the battle. Additionally, he'd need an Uchiha body that already acquired the EMS. This seems to be true if you look at how Madara wants Sasuke to develop his own Sharingan. That being said, there had to have been another Uchiha legend like Itachi before, but there aren't any records of such a person. Shisui could've been one, but he never even obtained the MS.

Also, like Apollian said, why did Madara not only encourage Itachi, but also assist him in annihilating his own clan? Eventually, Sasuke's body would've caved in as well, and with no more Uchiha bodies to switch to, it would be the end of Madara. Having said all this, I highly doubt Madara's a body switcher. I'm rather inclined to think that he's relying on a certain type of life support system that is keeping him alive following the battle with Hashirama. The life support system has kept him alive all this time and that is how he's been able to live up to this point (much like Darth Vader, but without the breathing).

[Sasuke_Bateman]

http://i36.tinypic.com/28rp9w8.jpg

[Yoko Takeo]

http://i36.tinypic.com/28rp9w8.jpg

Looks like a Rinnegan mixed with the Sharingan. Perhaps that's what the original Rinnegan that belonged to the Rikudo Sennin looked like? And it also seemed to be the eye of the Jyubi.

[ajnas]

Going by that pic, Sasuke is more special than Naruto, I believe this is where all doujutsu's orginated from, the Jyuubi.

[lotus_lee]

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/7181/lolzpk.jpg

[El_Frenchie]

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/7181/lolzpk.jpg

wowowowowowowwowowowowowoww.

Rep time.

[Cub-Sama]

^The crow thing was actually a bad early translation (of Kankuro's name at that). The real Jyuubi seems to have one eye and body similar to the Kyuubi.

http://i36.tinypic.com/28rp9w8.jpg

Putting those two things together and the shadow beast that we have seen in Sasuke I'm beginning to believe that Sasuke's sharingan is linked to the Jyuubi more than other sharingans. Maybe he is fragment of the Jyuubi and that is why Madara wants him.

It seems like the reason Nagato is significantly weaker than Rikkodou is because the original eye had both Rinnegan and Sharingan mixed and when he gave his son the power it was diluted until only the sharingan was left and the rinnegan a simple genetic mutation.

Also if Sasuke is a fragment of the Jyuubi and so is Nagato then I am calling Final Fantasy VII rip off.

[Yoko Takeo]

Putting those two things together and the shadow beast that we have seen in Sasuke I'm beginning to believe that Sasuke's sharingan is linked to the Jyuubi more than other sharingans. Maybe he is fragment of the Jyuubi and that is why Madara wants him.

It seems like the reason Nagato is significantly weaker than Rikkodou is because the original eye had both Rinnegan and Sharingan mixed and when he gave his son the power it was diluted until only the sharingan was left and the rinnegan a simple genetic mutation.

Also if Sasuke is a fragment of the Jyuubi and so is Nagato then I am calling Final Fantasy VII rip off.

More than Sasuke, I'm willing to think that the entire Uchiha clan is a fragment of the Jyuubi, just like all the other Bijuu. The same can be said about the Senjuu clan. That explains how the Senjuu and Uchiha clans both were able to control the Kyuubi and possibly all the other Bijuu very well. Because they had the power of the Jyuubi, from which all other Bijuu are derived, they had the power of supremacy over them. What makes Sasuke different from Itachi and the rest of the clan (minus Madara) is that Sasuke's heart is filled with hatred, and it is hatred that enables him to make full use of the Jyuubi's power.

Another thing that just came to mind is how Rikudo Sennin sealed the Jyuubi's soul within him. He then split its soul into nine pieces, creating the Bijuu. There's no denying that his sons also inherited Rikudo Sennin's power. Perhaps, like Minato had done with Kyuubi, Rikudo split Jyuubi's power in two when his sons were born, placing the dark side of Jyuubi in his first son with the Sharingan, and the light side in his younger son, like Minato placed the light side of Kyuubi's chakra in Naruto and the dark side someplace else. That is why the Uchiha's power is defined by hatred and bloodlust, if you look at how their Sharingan is made to develop by killing one's closest friend and then taking the eyes of your sibling. Senjuu's power is defined by love and sympathy rather than hatred, and that is how they are able to access their side of Jyuubi's power.

[Gin]

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/7181/lolzpk.jpg

rofl :heh:

[Mr. Johnny 5]

http://i36.tinypic.com/28rp9w8.jpg

Wow... i thought so but the stick and all from the Rikoudou Senin reminded me of something...
http://content6.flixster.com/question/38/00/84/3800844_ori.gif

[The Small One]

Somehow this whole 'destined child' story from Jiraiya and the frogs got completely irrelevant.

I just hope we won't get some sort of "Naruto is the reincarnation of the Rikudo Sennin".

[james0246]

Putting those two things together and the shadow beast that we have seen in Sasuke I'm beginning to believe that Sasuke's sharingan is linked to the Jyuubi more than other sharingans. Maybe he is fragment of the Jyuubi and that is why Madara wants him.

It seems like the reason Nagato is significantly weaker than Rikkodou is because the original eye had both Rinnegan and Sharingan mixed and when he gave his son the power it was diluted until only the sharingan was left and the rinnegan a simple genetic mutation.

Also if Sasuke is a fragment of the Jyuubi and so is Nagato then I am calling Final Fantasy VII rip off.

Hmm, Sasuke's Susano'o/Genjutsu Monster doesn't really look anything like the Jyuubi. The Jyuubi has the Kyuubi's body only with one really big eye (which has the Rinnegan's concentric circles and 9 tomoe), whereas Sasuke's Susano'o/Genjutsu Monster is a weird humanoid giant with strange 6-finger'd hands.

That being said, this theory has certainly attained relevence again :).

[rajin]

[IMG]http://imagefruity.com/images/42wtkyvfconmk9hyv74.jpg

[IMG]http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/9536/sasukesucked2.jpg

[IMG]http://imagefruity.com/images/0tzu62y5etae0iyfxl2k.jpg

[Cub-Sama]

Hmm, Sasuke's Susano'o/Genjutsu Monster doesn't really look anything like the Jyuubi. The Jyuubi has the Kyuubi's body only with one really big eye (which has the Rinnegan's concentric circles and 9 tomoe), whereas Sasuke's Susano'o/Genjutsu Monster is a weird humanoid giant with strange 6-finger'd hands.

That being said, this theory has certainly attained relevence again :).

I said that it might be a fragment a very small piece of the jyuubi, maybe it is a small piece of the jyuubi's hatred. I don't think that the showing of the shadow beast consuming Sasuke and the jyuubi being mentioned are two seperate events.

It looks like Naruto will be coming to an end soon but I wont be surprised if Kishi makes a spin-off story revolving around Rikkodou Sennin and his sons which explain most of Naruto.

@Where is Hidan in that pic I cant see him

[Rahan]

@Where is Hidan in that pic I cant see him

Hidan and Sasori are missing ...
Those are only characters who interacted directly with Naruto, no matter how brief their interaction was (soon it will be revealed Kisame was Jiraya's mole, Deidara fought Sasuke because he was afraid Sasuke would hurt Naruto and Orochimaru is coming back to protect Naruto)

[The-Wolf-Of-Mibu]

Oh how useless Byakugan is in comparison to the way the manga was set up early on lol.

Remember when Hyuuga was touted as the one of the two greatest clans in Konoha. Sharingan evolved from Byakugan and all that. Remember how impressed Kakashi was when he saw Neji fighting Hinata and he exclaimed "I didn't know a guy like this existed. Our sasuke is no match for him".

Lol with all the insane powerups Sasuke or Naruto could kill Neji in their sleep.

I wonder if Kishi plans on tying up those kinds of loose ends or will he simply ignore them in favor of evermore grandiose narratives which pop out of the blue.

[darkmaster074]

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/7181/lolzpk.jpg

WTF:twitch:

iam sure that will happen at the end:heh:

[james0246]

@Cub: Oh, I misunderstood then, I apologies.

That being said, what a stupid colour cover page. No consistency, no theme, just random characters (and yes, they are random, considering that Naruto has interacted with far more characters (in far more important ways) than are shown in the image; I mean, where is Iruka or Hiruzen? Shikimaru or Hinata? Freaking Minato? etc) standing around in no particular order...

And the colour images of Sakura and company walking is equally unimpressive. Why would I want to see a colour image for characters I already know the colour of and a conversation that is ultimately boring...

And the magazine cover (of SJ) is equally stupid. Who wants to see an action pic of Naruto eating ramen?

Big disappointment for these colour pages...

[The-Wolf-Of-Mibu]

Who is this person top left of Jiraiya? And why is he among a the manga's reccuring characers

http://imagefruity.com/images/0tzu62y5etae0iyfxl2k.jpg

[Rahan]

Oh how useless Byakugan is in comparison to the way the manga was set up early on lol.

Remember when Hyuuga was touted as the one of the two greatest clans in Konoha. Sharingan evolved from Byakugan and all that. Remember how impressed Kakashi was when he saw Neji fighting Hinata and he exclaimed "I didn't know a guy like this existed. Our sasuke is no match for him".

Lol with all the insane powerups Sasuke or Naruto could kill Neji in their sleep.

I wonder if Kishi plans on tying up those kinds of loose ends or will he simply ignore them in favor of evermore grandiose narratives which pop out of the blue.

Hyuuga are gone forever ...
Their crest didn't even appear among the ones of the clans fighting against Senju / Uchiha, unlike the Nara and a few other known clans. (granted we don't see all the clans, but they should have had a somehow central position if they were so important)
Ao is probably the last time we'll see one fighting.

@Cub: Oh, I misunderstood then, I apologies.

That being said, what a stupid colour cover page. No consistency, no theme, just random characters (and yes, they are random, considering that Naruto has interacted with far more characters (in far more important ways) than are shown in the image; I mean, where is Iruka or Hiruzen? Shikimaru or Hinata? Freaking Minato? etc) standing around in no particular order...

Almost all the characters here appeared hostile to Naruto, but were changed at some point by Naruto. You could have a point with Iruka though. Even Kakashi took time to warm up to Naruto (didn't he say he was "starting to like him" in the Wind training arc ?)
That's why I joked about Kisame, Deidara and Oro, whose inclusion seems weird. (Kisame doesn't give a damn, Deidara was just infuriated and Oro was amused)

Oh, and Neji is missing (refer to the first part of this post)

Edit : forgot about Kimimaro. Can't make him fit in this. I guess it's just random after all.

Who is this person top left of Jiraiya? And why is he among a the manga's reccuring characers

It's Zabuza.

[ajnas]

Deidara and Kisame is just random, so is Kimmimaro.

[Yoko Takeo]

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/7181/lolzpk.jpg

Watch this. Madara makes a Death Star out of the moon and takes over the world. He'll then use the Death Star to conquer other planets. And this is how Star Wars really began. :heh:

[Cub-Sama]

Lol with all the insane powerups Sasuke or Naruto could kill Neji in their sleep.

Naruto and Sasuke could kill Neji by blinking on the moon.

Watch this. Madara makes a Death Star out of the moon and takes over the world. He'll then use the Death Star to conquer other planets. And this is how Star Wars really began. :heh:

The dark side is really the beginning to getting your sharingan and Palpatine was trying to get Anakin and Luke to activate their sharingan so he could kill them and gain the mangekyou.

[darkmaster074]

after this arc we will see Kisame vs killer bee

[The-Wolf-Of-Mibu]

after this arc we will see Kisame vs killer bee

I hope killer bee trains naruto to control kyubi. I want to see kisame vs kakashi, mano-a-mano

[darkmaster074]

I hope killer bee trains naruto to control kyubi. I want to see kisame vs kakashi, mano-a-mano

if killer bee won madara will help kisame

[Sabaku Kyu]

Exactly where did Madara send Sasuke and Karin?


Their crest didn't even appear among the ones of the clans fighting against Senju / Uchiha, unlike the Nara and a few other known clans. (granted we don't see all the clans, but they should have had a somehow central position if they were so important)
Ao is probably the last time we'll see one fighting.

The Hyuuga clan has a crest? I don't think I've seen it or I've forgotten it. I mean, they have the manji seal on the branch members, but I didn't think that was the actual symbol of their clan.

[That Other Ninja]

Yeah I don't think a Hyuuga crest has been depicted.

[Kazekage_Gaara]

Hidan and Sasori are missing ...

Those are only characters who interacted directly with Naruto, no matter how brief their interaction was (soon it will be revealed Kisame was Jiraya's mole, Deidara fought Sasuke because he was afraid Sasuke would hurt Naruto and Orochimaru is coming back to protect Naruto)

I can see it now... Orochimaru comes back to help Naruto get Sasuke. *sarcasm* "I want his body! Can't let Madara have it!"

Anyways, I like how in the new color page Itachi has an intact Konoha headband (not slashed out) =).

[That Other Ninja]

Notice how Deidara is looking at Itachi and Kukuzu is glaring at Naruto? It looks like Pain is looking at Naruto as well.

[Anime5]

hey guys this is a little off topic in terms of the current chapter discussion but its something i thought of when i saw Madara in the chapter- way earlier on in the Manga, Madara said that he assisted Itachi in the slaying of the Uchiha clan right?? so basically, wouldn't Madara be considered a big enemy as well towards Sasuke? who wants to destroy Konoha for what they put his brother through and did to his clan?? ( P.S-why did Madara assisted Itachi anyways??) I guess this is a 2 part question but ya, if someone can fill me in that would be great, thanks!

[Fipskuul]

Exactly where did Madara send Sasuke and Karin?Probably, to the closed space that Novu has created with his nen ability.

[rajin]

Kishi is certainly lost interest in naruto

how

look at the plot and story

it is too much predictable
even now kishi lack his great suspense art

also it lookslike he is reading fan fictions these days too much

[Ryuujin]

I've read fan fiction less stupid than this...

[The-Wolf-Of-Mibu]

I've read fan fiction less stupid than this...
lol concur

[iBeast]

A shell of his former self? So after all these years Madara still hasn't healed? First hokage must have really did a number on him...

[james0246]

^Yet Minato and Itachi still could do nothing against him (though Madara, it seems, at least respected Itachi's power). Damn, just how powerful was Hashirama...?

[OliverTwist]

Who is this person top left of Jiraiya? And why is he among a the manga's reccuring characers

http://imagefruity.com/images/0tzu62y5etae0iyfxl2k.jpg

Pretty sure thats Zabuza.

[SeanQ]

I like how the Raikage isn't the least beat mad that he lost an arm for no reason...
Also, so what if Madara has 7 tail beasts...Naruto in Nine-tail or Sage is capable of finishing those off himself...they shouldn't really be that big of a threat w/out a host...and even w/ a host...bleh...Madara's plan is just so not well planned...

[Isekaijin]

It's Gendo's plan all over again.

I'm way too coward to face the world, so let's destroy it and create one where nobody can hurt my feelings.

Becoming this guy's minion... Sasuke has fallen lower than I expected.

[Freya]

I like how the Raikage isn't the least beat mad that he lost an arm for no reason...
Also, so what if Madara has 7 tail beasts...Naruto in Nine-tail or Sage is capable of finishing those off himself...they shouldn't really be that big of a threat w/out a host...and even w/ a host...bleh...Madara's plan is just so not well planned...

Yeah except Naruto has NO control of the Kyuubi up to 3 tails.


Wow. just read the chapter and I have to say...it's a LOT better than what people have been saying. The Rinnegan+Sharigan eye is like just EPIC.

Still don't know why Madara can't do everything WITHOUT telling the freaking Kages. Though it would make sense since if the Kages gave over the Hachibi and Naruto then everything would be set but eh nothings too easy.

And yeah. Don't know why Madara didn't just take Naruto. Actually he should be able to capture Naruto whenever he wants to.

[NoLongerSane]

Ok, upon reading the spoilers and then the scans, tell me if I have this right.
Madara wants to unite all the bijuu's together to form it's original form. Then from there, Madara plans on becoming the ultimate jinchuuriki and use the power of the Juubi to magnify his eyes to use a grand scale genjutsu to unite the ninja world populace in a lie of peace and prosparity. Human Instrumentality anyone? Was this not tried on the TV series of Neon Genesis Evangelion.

[Freya]

Ok, upon reading the spoilers and then the scans, tell me if I have this right.
Madara wants to unite all the bijuu's together to form it's original form. Then from there, Madara plans on becoming the ultimate jinchuuriki and use the power of the Juubi to magnify his eyes to use a grand scale genjutsu to unite the ninja world populace in a lie of peace and prosparity. Human Instrumentality anyone? Was this not tried on the TV series of Neon Genesis Evangelion.

Yeah you're basically right. Plans to cast Mugen Tsukuyomi and have everyone be mindless puppets so to say.

[Quzor]

it is too much predictable
even now kishi lack his great suspense art

also it lookslike he is reading fan fictions these days too much
I'd have to disagree with the predictability part; I don't think anyone saw this chapter coming after the ending of the previous one. However, that being said, I do think the lack of predictability is what's hurting Naruto. For me, Naruto was exciting because you could speculate what would happen, and then see if you were right. Pulling plot lines out of left field, just for the sake of changing the story, is very poor story telling, in my humble opinion.

I will agree though, that it would seem as though Kishi is spending a great deal of time reading Naruto fan-fiction.
It's Gendo's plan all over again.

I'm way too coward to face the world, so let's destroy it and create one where nobody can hurt my feelings.Ok, upon reading the spoilers and then the scans, tell me if I have this right.
Madara wants to unite all the bijuu's together to form it's original form. Then from there, Madara plans on becoming the ultimate jinchuuriki and use the power of the Juubi to magnify his eyes to use a grand scale genjutsu to unite the ninja world populace in a lie of peace and prosparity. Human Instrumentality anyone? Was this not tried on the TV series of Neon Genesis Evangelion.
The difference is, Eva presented this plan in a way that at least maintained it's mystery and intrigue until well into the finale of the story. We had a semblance of an idea of what was going on, but to put the whole picture together from the beginning, one would have to have an extreme ability for insight.

On the other hand, Kishi has come out directly and described exactly what is going to happen; with very little tact, to boot. This makes it feel as if the story is coming to a close, without really knowing if it is or not.

We knew how many angels there were; they talked about it the entire time. Flipside; Naruto still has quite a few enemies to overcome, and this particular plot-line may have been better served as a finale to the story, rather than a precursor to the possible finale.

[Marion]

So the 10 tailed beast body became the moon...Madara has magic suction eye powers and the big plan is to control the world (but of course)

Raikage's outburst was pretty comical though :heh:

THE 4TH NINJA WAR

Uchiha Madara vs Everybody Else

...:rolleyes: Really?

[thermopyle]

Probably not. Madara probably has an army stashed inside that eye of his. Or a hidden country. Or something. Cause one (two counting Kisame) guy against the nations isn't really worth calling a world war.

[james0246]

Wow, lots of fun in this chapter.
1) @ Killer Bee (where ever you are): You just received your first piece of evidence for your Sharingan = Dimensional abilities theory :). You came up with it 9-10 months or so ago, stuck to your guns even though many of us said there was no evidence (which there wasn't), and now your dedication just might be bearing fruit. It'll all depend on just what Madara's dimensional power is, and whether Kakashi's Kamui is the same thing.

That being said, Madara's technique reminded me of Skimming from the Wheel of Time series. I wonder if Madara enters the area/space, and then has to move to a specific destination in the area/space in order to exit elsewhere in the "real" world...

2) The long hard struggle concerning the translation of Itachi's line from 386 now has been mostly decided: Madara is, by his own words, a shell of his former self.

Then again, it is hard to actually see Madara as being powerless. He does have a physical form (he was actually hit with Amaterasu after all, and he ounched Naruto way back when), and he did pseudo-defeat Minato and Itachi never defeated him during his life. So, just how powerless could he actually be?

3) Who else here thinks Naruto will gain the Rinnegan now?

[Quzor]

2) The long hard struggle concerning the translation of Itachi's line from 386 now has been mostly decided: Madara is, by his own words, a shell of his former self.

This is a beautiful thing. Forget the whole Senju/Uchiha argument, forget Rikudou-sennin, forget Bijuu and the Sharingan, forget it all. Hashirama kicked the ever-loving shit out of Madara, so hard, that he's still feeling it this many years later.

I don't know what kind of power Hashirama had, or if he perhaps used some special technique to inflict this much damage to Madara, but there is officially nothing I want to see in Naruto more than the fight between these two. I'm not normally one for "fan-service" but, in this particular case, I'm willing to forgo my displeasure to see everything that happened between them.

@james: Your avatar is going to give me nightmares. No one should have that many eyes, not even in anime.

[james0246]

^Well, I figured that Naruto is all about special eyes, so I might as well have an avatar emphasizing that point...:). (Guu-sama shows Kakashi's eye/eye patch, Naruto's/Yugito's slitted pupils, the Jyuubi's singular eye, Shino's glasses, Sakura/Karin's lovey-dovey eyes, etc - Everything is represented in one little avatar from a complete different series made before Kishimoto's recent revelations...)

As for Hashirama...yes, we have to see this fight. Even if it is just a WTFPWN moment lasting only an episode (or a chapter, if Kishimoto decides to draw it), just seeing Madara getting his face pummeled would be sufficient for my viewing pleasure :).