Your thoughts on the growing acceptance of anime...

[shirimashita31]

Do you guys see anime as gradually breaking out of its former niche status and finding mainstream acceptance in the West? Will it possibly grow, stabilize, or fade away from the minds of the public in the years to come?

I think the popularity of anime has grown quite prominent over the years, much of it I think is due to the exposure of it on television. In the U.S. we have had Toonami, Adult Swim, and Syfy giving us a good helping of broadcast anime. While anime isn't quite featured as much on TV in our country nowadays, Hollywood has released quite a few films lately based on well-known anime (Dragonball, Astro Boy, and Speed Racer). Whether or not we as fans enjoyed these adaptations, they do signify an attempt at 'mainstreaming' these titles to a broader audience.

If this trend continues and that Japanese anime is still around in the next decade, I believe there is the potential for anime to not simply be associated with Hello Kitty, Pokemon, or "cartoon porn" in the minds of the vast majority of people in the West. Having the opportunity to be featured on "The Tonight Show" is definitely helping generate exposure to an audience unfamiliar with anime in the U.S., and hopefully more exposure like this will happen in the future.

These are just my thoughts, as optimistic as they may be. :)

What are your own thoughts on this?

[Oppius]

I actually more worried if anime become too popular or too mainstream. Its much like "now its popular and now its sucked". The same thing happen when in 2002-2004 when Naruto and Bleach not very popular and still cool and only appear in certain scanlation sites but look happen to them now. I just don't want the same thing happened to anime and manga in general.

[Triple_R]

Hhhmmm... I hate to be a downer, but I think that anime might actually start to recede a bit in the west. I don't think that it'll completely fade, but really... I'm not sure if there's a whole lot of anime out there right now that appeals to a mainstream western audience outside of the big three shounen titles.

The publicity given to anime by Conan O'Brien would have helped quite a bit... if there was more anime out there that appealed to a mainstream western audience. As is, I'm not sure if there's enough of it. Consider that even on that Conan O'Brien bit on anime, he was voice acting an old Ghost in the Shell scene. What anime today is like Ghost in the Shell?


I'm not saying that there isn't good anime out there right now (although I do think that this has been a weak year compared to most recent years); just that there's not a whole lot to appeal to wider western audiences beyond the same old, same old of Bleach, Naruto, and One Piece.

[Vexx]

Anime will probably always be a niche hobby (like D&D or SCA or certain types of gaming). As long as the vendors understand this, they'll do well. Trying to mainstream it would just really destroy it, imo.

[wingdarkness]

I don't see a growing acceptance at all..In 2001 I thought having a primetime anime on American television following the success of Cowboy bebop and obviously the Dragonball franchise was a real possibility, nowadays Cartoon network doesn't even air anime until past 2 or 3am in the morning where only necrophiliacs can watch...Anime's popularity has regressed bigtime since 1997-2002 when it was about to burst at the seems in America...Sorry shirimashita31, but beyond Hollywood grasping at straws to make a buck by stealing content from anywhere, this is a conversation more suited for the year 2000...

[Revenger1589]

As people have already said, the popularity of anime is decreasing in the west and it's very difficult to think it could become mainstream anywhere when it's a very niche product in Japan. For animation in general to be accepted by the regular guy, it has to have a very specific content, and most anime people talk about aren't like that.

Japanese producers have realized that it will be almost impossible for their product to be sold to anyone other than otaku, so they focus on that demographic. It's a vicious circle, otaku are the only feasible market so anime becomes more niche and the chances of breaking out are lower.

I don't think anime can make any impact on the west if it has such a small following in Japan.

[dasrune]

agreed, anime peaked in the early 2000s as far as western audiences are concerned. adult swim only keeps anime around so it doesn't look like they've completely given up, which is cool but i wouldn't count on them taking a chance on a series that will only grab the attention of a few die hard anime fans.

[synaesthetic]

Anime will probably always be a niche hobby (like D&D or SCA or certain types of gaming). As long as the vendors understand this, they'll do well. Trying to mainstream it would just really destroy it, imo.

This man speaks the truth.

[shirimashita31]

As people have already said, the popularity of anime is decreasing in the west and it's very difficult to think it could become mainstream anywhere when it's a very niche product in Japan. For animation in general to be accepted by the regular guy, it has to have a very specific content, and most anime people talk about aren't like that.

Japanese producers have realized that it will be almost impossible for their product to be sold to anyone other than otaku, so they focus on that demographic. It's a vicious circle, otaku are the only feasible market so anime becomes more niche and the chances of breaking out are lower.

I don't think anime can make any impact on the west if it has such a small following in Japan.
Somewhat related - I have heard elsewhere that the Japanese also depend on foreign sales when it comes to keeping their anime studios afloat. Is this actually true, or are they getting it mostly from hardcore anime fans?

Personally, it wouldn't be a stretch to suggest that if a Japanese studio were to produce something that is specifically aimed towards a Western audience, then they can perhaps try to gain a more mainstream following. Although with the current economy, I'm not sure how feasible it would be for the Japanese studios to even consider reaching out to a wider audience outside of the country.

Anime's popularity has regressed bigtime since 1997-2002 when it was about to burst at the seems in America...Sorry shirimashita31, but beyond Hollywood grasping at straws to make a buck by stealing content from anywhere, this is a conversation more suited for the year 2000...
So, the trend you guys are seeing here would even negate the possibility for a comeback for anime on television? Or perhaps even a second boom?

While America doesn't have prominent anime-only channels like AT-X and Animax, we have carried a few networks that broadcast shows licensed by individual companies (Funimation and ADV). Something like this would have been a dream almost a decade ago, but unfortunately I don't think it really caught on to make it a widespread thing. I think the latter company might have also canceled their channel.

[Revenger1589]

Somewhat related - I have heard elsewhere that the Japanese also depend on foreign sales when it comes to keeping their anime studios afloat. Is this actually true, or are they getting it mostly from hardcore anime fans?

Personally, it wouldn't be a stretch to suggest that if a Japanese studio were to produce something that is specifically aimed towards a Western audience, then they can perhaps try to gain a more mainstream following. Although with the current economy, I'm not sure how feasible it would be for the Japanese studios to even consider reaching out to a wider audience outside of the country.

Cases like that are extremely rare and not how the industry works in general. While oversea sales are a factor, most studios wouldn't see a significant difference if they were cut out.

Gonzo became famous for targeting western fans and producing anime with them in mind, but they are practically dead. For all intents and purposes, anime makes money from DVDs and merchandising that's bought by Otaku and nothing else.

The western market is very important to one company in particular, Toei, not so much for the rest.

[wingdarkness]

@ shirimashita31 - Well dude, never say never...Fashion from the 70's, 80's, 90's tend to comeback all the time...In American football right now the trendy style of play is the "Wildcat" offense, something that looks new but was really all the rage in the 1930's-40's (Kinda let my football geek out just now^^)...So yeah it can happen...But it's gonna take an effort by an America television station or company to really push the hell outta something for mainstream... However with the level of pirating and web options to satisfy niche desires, it's not just gonna snowball like it did mid-90's thru 02...Somebody, some big name like a Spielberg or somebody is gonna have to push it and give it the cred to just have a chance to fail...People are barley watching network TV as it is, so I'm not holding my breath...

[shirimashita31]

So yeah it can happen...But it's gonna take an effort by an America television station or company to really push the hell outta something for mainstream... However with the level of pirating and web options to satisfy niche desires, it's not just gonna snowball like it did mid-90's thru 02...Somebody, some big name like a Spielberg or somebody is gonna have to push it and give it the cred to just have a chance to fail...People are barley watching network TV as it is, so I'm not holding my breath...
Good point, and I agree that as long as the Japanese companies continue to produce anime (and the West continues to buy it from them), then surely there are other chances in the future.

I think Disney may be one big name company that's giving anime a little push into the American mainstream. For a foreign animated film like Ponyo to generate over $15 million at the box office, there's certainly some hope that a company like Disney can successfully market an anime to a broader audience.

Who knows, maybe shows other than Naruto can be broadcasted on a Disney station?

[Ansalem]

I think Disney may be one big name company that's giving anime a little push into the American mainstream. For a foreign animated film like Ponyo to generate over $15 million at the box office, there's certainly some hope that a company like Disney can successfully market an anime to a broader audience.

Ponyo is a Studio Ghibli film, and Disney has been releasing those in America for the past 11 years, so this isn't really a new trend. Also, the main reason for the Ghibli releases having such commercial success in America is that they are and are marketed as Children's or Family films, like the rest of the Disney movies. Cartoons do well in America as long as they are intended for kids, which has been true for many years, so this isn't really much indication of hope for the majority of anime being a mainstream success in the West.

[Triple_R]

Like I argued over on the Haruhi board on a separate but related issue...

What anime needs in order for animation to break out in the west is the North American equivalent of Grave of the Fireflies.

That is, to say, if North America itself produces a cartoon movie like that, then I can see anime hitting it big in the west.

At this time, I think that a change in attitude towards animation in the west will have to arise from home-grown animation.

Something like Avatar the Last Airbender was a good start, perhaps... but it needs to be a bit more mature than even that.

[Oppius]

I'm afraid if anime getting too popular. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitle6cd1cskka05i?from=Main.ItsPopularNowItSucks)

[Triple_R]

I'm afraid if anime getting too popular. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitle6cd1cskka05i?from=Main.ItsPopularNowItSucks)

... No offense, but I wonder sometimes if people link to TVTropes just because they think its cool, hip, and trendy to do so... with out even reading the article.

You go through the article linked to above, and it reads to me as rather condemning of the predominant view on anime on this thread (i.e. we'd be better off if anime didn't become popular/mainstream).

There's a lot on that article (at least if you include the examples listed) that would cast Anime Suki in a bad light...

[KyuuA4]

Growing acceptance? I thought fandom is way past that stage. Considering - every major (and various minor) US city has at least one anime convention. Anime is all over the Internet.

How many of you were fans during the 90's?

Hollywood has released quite a few films lately based on well-known anime (Dragonball, Astro Boy, and Speed Racer). Whether or not we as fans enjoyed these adaptations, they do signify an attempt at 'mainstreaming' these titles to a broader audience.

This is actually more of a sign of Hollywood getting desperate, as they've seem to run out of original ideas during the past few years.

[Marcus H.]

Honestly, TVTropes is just another version of Encyclopedia Dramatica. No offense to you, Oppius. :)

For me, I don't think anime isn't still that widely accepted in the West. Yeah, each state holds at least a single convention every year, but that only means that the niche community just increases within a specific state (or you're seeing the same faces in a handful of conventions). Aside from that, anime is pretty much still treated the same way how it was treated back then in the West.

[Daniel E.]

I don't see a growing acceptance at all..In 2001 I thought having a primetime anime on American television following the success of Cowboy bebop and obviously the Dragonball franchise was a real possibility, nowadays Cartoon network doesn't even air anime until past 2 or 3am in the morning where only necrophiliacs can watch...Anime's popularity has regressed bigtime since 1997-2002

Animax Latin America started out as a 100% anime channel. Now days, around half of their programs are none-anime related (i.e: old movies and series).

[Triple_R]

Anime has acceptance in the sense that your average person living outside of Japan could look at an anime school girl drawing and probably distinguish it as "anime" and not just a generic drawing.

So, yes, people in the west know what anime is (which was largely not the case through out most of the 90s)... but that's not the same as saying that there's a lot of interest there in actually watching it.

That sort of mainstream acceptance hasn't been achieved.

The way that you know if an entertainment form has gained that sort of mainstream acceptance in the west is to watch national news stations, and see if their news anchors are doing segments on it or not. So, for example, the game Modern Warfare 2... that has mainstream acceptance. It's on the regular news everywhere lately, from what I've seen.

Until a particular anime show gets that sort of notice...

[Larthak]

Anime will probably always be a niche hobby (like D&D or SCA or certain types of gaming). As long as the vendors understand this, they'll do well. Trying to mainstream it would just really destroy it, imo.This man speaks the truth.Indeed, he does. If anime becoming mainstream leads to something like this...
DgEUyhsndK8...uh, just the thought of it makes my skin crawl.

Of course, I only mean the portrayal of western fans there (no offense against Sakura-Con, they just provided a very fitting example). Albeit the video is made purely as a ridiculed reflection of said fans for the comedy's sake, it shows a problem I'd love to remain kept in check.

Since anime is not yet really known by the majority of global populace, you don't often see some anime-obsessed otaku near you shout "I luv animu~!!" or carry one of those half-naked anime chick pillows everywhere he goes. I'd just feel horribly embarrased for being an anime fan if I ever happened to be in the vicinity of such a person. So I'm kinda content with anime being something...not yet very familiar or spoken much of. Not publicly at least, that is.

It's also kinda nice that we had to have interest in anime to become its fans, seeking information about it and in the process, learning a little bit about the culture of its makers as well. Well, that was my case, at least. When me and a friend of mine found out about anime, it was a bit of a mystery in our country (of course, that changed rapidly in the following decade). Not like cartoons, films, or music industry, with which we're all being fed since youth to the point where you're simply disgusted with it.

So yeah, I don't want to see anime become mainstream. I don't want to see it on every corner, on every tv channel. I don't want others try making their own. That's what I love about it...it is present, if I want it to, when I want to and that it's exclusive...exotic, if I may say so.

In the end, I doubt anime gets mainstream in the nearest future. The mindset of your average western guy is still very different from that of a japanese citizen. A lot of people still find anime content hard to understand, thinking of it as childish or just plain inappropriate (because of its greatest extremes, shows like Pokemon or all the countless hentai). Still, it will propably happen one day, with the boundaries between our cultures getting ever thinner. And I'll be sure to enjoy anime until it happens.

[SeijiSensei]

Personally, it wouldn't be a stretch to suggest that if a Japanese studio were to produce something that is specifically aimed towards a Western audience, then they can perhaps try to gain a more mainstream following. Although with the current economy, I'm not sure how feasible it would be for the Japanese studios to even consider reaching out to a wider audience outside of the country.

One of the best-financed attempts at the strategy of making anime for worldwide distribution was Seirei no Moribito (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2006-06-06/d-rights-acquires-34-percent-stake-in-geneon-entertainment). Despite that, it was poorly marketed in R1, relegated to some ghetto times on [adult swim], and only fitfully released on DVDs (it's still not complete).

In terms of reaching mainstream television viewers, anime will never succeed as long as it's relegated to channels like Cartoon Network and SyFy. If someone could convince television executives to start carrying shows like Moribito, Nodame Cantabile, Saiunkoku Monogatari or Hataraki Man on channels like Lifetime or Oxygen, it might create some consciousness. Getting Oprah to endorse an anime series and carry it on Oxygen would do more for anime than anything Turner might do.

You'll notice that these are channels for women. They're the great under-developed anime audience here in the US.

[Jetbent]

We're still definitely not at that point yet. People, though many actually like some anime shows, they're still afraid to admit it to others. In a sense, the otaku culture of the West still has a long way to go before acceptance. Plus, there's a lot of cultural differences, for example themes that the Japanese find normal, but that Americans would consider vulgar or inappropriate.

[hinakatbklyn]

Let me see, hardacore fans can make a hobby interesting, word of mouth makes a hobby or event popular, expand on it and it becomes sucessful. Then comes the tough part. Either stay with what you have and succeed that way or take a gamble, go mainstream and fail miserably. (Trying to go mainstream could end up losing their fanbase because they want to try and impress everyone).

Anime is not the first to try and take a small but popular idea and fail (or almost fail) because they went beyond what either they could handle or their fanbase could handle. 15 years for ADV Studios was a long time but it didn't work for them any more so they tried something different. Geneon took a gamble by releasing as many english titles as possible beyond their means and now their done. Even entertainment sports (on and off topic) had a popular thing going, but tried to get too popular, impressed few and lost their fanbase in the process.

[Jetbent]

Mm.... Funimation is the big bad guy now... they seem to be behind 90% of all new licensing, so how well anime does in the U.S. will probably be largely affected by them now and in the near future. They've been around for a while though, so I don't think they're going to be dying out any time soon.

[bhl88]

Anime would no longer feel special to 'some' (one of the other reasons for watching anime) if it goes mainstream.


... As I mentioned before, many otaku do not feel ashamed of being otaku. With anime being relative unknown, otaku feel a sense of uniqueness. This also applies to comic book readers, who "prefer the situation as it is and enjoy being misunderstood" (Pustz 210). This type of behavior is not unique to otaku. According to Pustz, "Americans find a certain pleasure in obscurity, whether it is finding a secret fishing hole or collection every compact disc released by an obscure Los Angeles punk band" (Pustz 210). This is probably one of the reasons why some otaku resent the fact that big corporations such as Disney are getting their hands on some anime titles. Besides the fear of these companies' editing and corruption of some of these titles, there is also a big concern that anime will become mainstream. Geeks, being different from other people, appreciate the fact that anime is unique and obscure. Hence, these geeks form the otaku culture, which is not very noticeable but it's definitely there.

[Jetbent]

I think there's definitely some of that. There's also the fact that anytime something goes mainstream (regardless of the medium) many of the people who consider themselves the "diehards" feel like they've been sold out. Just look at any punk band who gets a major record label for instance.

I personally wish that I could enjoy anime without having to worry about people disliking me for it... Primarily because my profession is such that it's bad to stick out. However, I won't give up my hobby to fit in if that makes any sense.

[roriconfan]

I have eyes and I see this: Back in the 90s the tv was full of anime, most didn't know or watch. Now that all the young people are at least familiar with the famous anime, the tv in my country airs only kidstuff like Pokemon and Shaman King. So, acceptance comes in two ways: Few fans, better attention to the shows they want, many fans, less attention.

We must also realize that today there are far too many tv channels where everyone can make a show with peanuts. A few decades ago, anime were in fact a way to fill the dead time in the few channels there were back then. So, now they don't need them.

Also, young people watch far less television these days. Most are occupied with the internet or console games. Airing anime is not attracting young people anymore.

Also, America has this trend of making anime-wannabies cartoons that share the basic elements of anime. And many people are content with that.

Plus, how many people actually watch anime on tv and don't dl them or watch them on DVD?

And let's be honest. Anime were seen as extreme because they had crazy stories and concepts in the past. Cartoons of that time simply were for babies. Nowadays, there are many movies and cartoons with far more mature context while the majority of modern anime are less wacky because they aim for a broad audience. Watering down did hurt the overall.

In all, anime are far more known today but also far less received.

p.s. I made a small check up on memorable anime by year and by analogy to the number of anime airing annually. The result was that as years go by, the number of quality anime rises annually. But at the same time, more anime are being produced each new year and the analogy of quality to mediocrity is leaning more and more to the second. Thus, the sum of modern anime are less interesting than the retro anime by analogy.

p.s. 2 Strangely, the same results show a peak of interest in anime in the mid of every decade and a drop at the beginning and ending of the decade. Right now we are going through the drop part. It will start rising again around 2012 (if the world does not blow up).

[bhl88]

As long as anime is not mainstream, the diehards will be fine.

(I think movies and games are already mainstream...)

[shirimashita31]

I think there's definitely some of that. There's also the fact that anytime something goes mainstream (regardless of the medium) many of the people who consider themselves the "diehards" feel like they've been sold out. Just look at any punk band who gets a major record label for instance.
I've never really understood this mentality. It's as if the sole reason for being interested in something is mainly out of pride, and not solely for their own enjoyment.

I personally wish that I could enjoy anime without having to worry about people disliking me for it... Primarily because my profession is such that it's bad to stick out. However, I won't give up my hobby to fit in if that makes any sense.
Ditto. Heck, I would actually like to be able to talk to more people about my love for anime. It would seem the only way to do this is through a message board and, unfortunately, not through any casual encounter with people in real life (since I usually don't have any time for convention-going).

Anyway, as an aside from this aspect of mainstreaming, I also wanted to know (as a side-topic) if people from other countries here find the situation the same as in America?

In other words, would people typically see Japanese anime as childish cartoons (at best) or cartoon porn (at worst)?

[synaesthetic]

The problem with any niche hobby going mainstream is it generally gets watered down and catered to the lowest common denominator.

A good example is gaming. Gaming is now officially mainstream, and because of it, there's a lot more horrible crap out there than there was when gaming was a niche hobby. Shovelware becomes the rule, not the exception.

I'd say that animation from Japan always had large quantities of the film equivalent of shovelware, however. 90% of everything is shit after all.

[Oppius]

I'm not surprised to see some people hated TVTropes as much as Encyclopedia Dramatica, Uncyclopedia and 4chan.

Back to the topic, I just hate to see anime and manga getting more and more mainstream. So mainstream that schoolkids have black notebooks that had "Death Note" on them. Lots of old people that aged 70+ constructing Gundam models to kill some free time. Your parents start to talk about some Macross, Gundam and Evangelion stuffs to you. Some other adults are making Naruto and Bleach re-enactment.

I know that was impossible level but I think obscurity can be cool sometimes.

[Jetbent]

I've never really understood this mentality. It's as if the sole reason for being interested in something is mainly out of pride, and not solely for their own enjoyment.



I think what it really comes down to is people wishing to be part of something exclusive. If everyone picks up a hobby, it ceases to be interesting for a lot of people (which is silly at best, arrogant at worst). True fans of something want as many people to enjoy it as possible.

The problem with any niche hobby going mainstream is it generally gets watered down and catered to the lowest common denominator.

The people who get mad when something they like goes "mainstream" are the people who don't really have a passion for anything. on the other side though, mainstreaming things often leads them to a loss of originality, and of course as synaesthetic put it, the "lowest common deonominator." Of course there's also a large point that people tend to overlook.

As time goes on, the population and production of that population increases. The amount of crappy products being produced is every increasing. However, so is the amount of products that are truly amazing. Essentially, what mainstreaming does is highlight a lot more products that wouldn't have gained notoriety otherwise. Of course, there are also the cases where the mainstream factor gets it right and makes something truly worthwhile also popular.

I guess what it comes down to is trying to stop people from attempting to capitalize on the hobbies or interests of many people by mass producing inferior products.

There's also the possibility of the people who only become part of something because they see it as "cool" or "interesting" to do so. These kinds of people are like the changing of the wind, and should be excluded from all serious discussion.

[HayashiTakara]

American cartoons have already adapted to anime style art. Just look at shows like Avatar and Teen Titans.

Edit:

Even American based Gaming studios hire art studios in japan and korea to produce anime style art work for their games. Like my friend's company Fifth Cell (the developers that made drawn to life) outsources their art work from korea.

[Theowne]

Wow. Two shows. That's undeniable proof that "American cartoons have already adapted to anime style art".

[HayashiTakara]

Wow. Two shows. That's undeniable proof that "American cartoons have already adapted to anime style art".

It was just an example, don't be a douche.

[Jetbent]

Now now... that's unnecessary. Another example is the new Astoboy movie... though there aren't many examples, the fact that there are examples means that the prevalence is occurring. American cartoons by the most prominent cartoon producers are generally aimed at younger audiences, whereas these new shows (avatar/teen titans), are focusing more on the young teen genre. Also, their wild success seems to show that Americans are ready to accept the art/storytelling styles, but aren't quite ready for it to be Japanese. Hopefully this stigma will go away as time goes on. There's also the fact that, since these shows were made by American companies, there isn't any problem with dubbing, which is a major drawback for a lot of animes.

[Triple_R]

I'm not sure how much can be read into Avatar and Teen Titans.

As both an anime fan and a former western comics fan, Avatar's art style makes me think of western comic book art work just as much as it makes me think of anime art work. Avatar also made me think of movies like Mulan and Kung-Fu Panda much more than it made me think of anything anime. It's style of humor is also much closer to those movies than the sort of humor you'd see in something like Bakemonogatari, Clannad, K-On, or Haruhi, for example. It's a distinctively American style of humor, with its boldness and brashness on the part of the characters and a high abundance of quick, short, obvious verbal zingers. Anime humor tends to be much more subtle (when verbal), but also has more slapstick and situational humor. Anime really does have a very different type of humor.

Teen Titans also feels a lot like Avatar here.. although Teen Titans is a bit closer to anime in it's presentation of Raven and Starfire. Raven and Starfire felt like anime characters to me... I didn't really get that with the Avatar cast. Still, Teen Titan's success borrows a lot from western comic book fans, and that shouldn't be forgotten. Robin is a very marketable name in his own right. I'd say Robin is more well-known in the west than... well, possibly any anime character, frankly.


I do think that there is something that can be learned from Avatar and Teen Titans, though... both shows are what would be called "anime original" if they were actual animes. Neither had filler while waiting for source material to build up.

I think that a shounen-style anime show that's anime original, and with high production values and a youthful cast... something like that could perhaps help anime a lot in the west, because it would never got bogged down in fillers that could turn off non-hardcore audiences.

Just an idea.

[Jetbent]

You also have to take into account that the shows you mentioned are meant for an older audience. Whereas, avatar and teen titans are aimed at kids who watch nickelodeon and disney channel. I don't think that either of these channels would be able to get away with playing Bakemonogatari or Haruhi.

[Slice of Life]

I've never really understood this mentality. It's as if the sole reason for being interested in something is mainly out of pride, and not solely for their own enjoyment.
This argument can also be turned around. Why do you crave for the approval of the masses if it's not an issue of pride?

True fans of something want as many people to enjoy it as possible.
Well, that's your opinion and that of Jehova's Witnesses. I just want people to happily live their lifes. I never felt the urge to shove people my hobbies down their throat. Then again, don't see myself as member of the circle of "true fans", I just enjoy anime. So yeah.



The mainstream won't change for anime, only anime could change to become mainstream. Now, I don't want anime to cater the mainstream but me. And if I was happy with mainstream entertainment I wouldn't be here. I would sit in front of the TV instead of hunting down obscure cartoons on the internet produced on the other side of the globe.

[Triple_R]

You also have to take into account that the shows you mentioned are meant for an older audience. Whereas, avatar and teen titans are aimed at kids who watch nickelodeon and disney channel. I don't think that either of these channels would be able to get away with playing Bakemonogatari or Haruhi.

Probably not.

Don't get me wrong... Avatar's a good sign. It represents a movement in the right direction anyway. There's not a lot of plot-heavy action-oriented western cartoons any more, so to see a western cartoon that's not an episodic comedy do well was nice to see.

[shirimashita31]

This argument can also be turned around. Why do you crave for the approval of the masses if it's not an issue of pride?
What's wrong with letting the anime industry expand and even profiting from a much larger audience? Surely with the industry the way it is right now, it wouldn't hurt to win the approval of the masses outside of Japan.

[HayashiTakara]

Miyazaki films are published state side by Disney (you can't get more western than that) and they are widely acclaimed by western film critics and viewers alike.

Marvel has even picked up eastern influence in their styles, one off the top of my head is "Sentinel", about a boy who found an abandoned broke down sentinel. Don't know the rest of the story. Also Ninja Turtles as well has now garned eastern influence in its art.

The anime art style I believe is popular among youths, theres even lots of clothing apparel out there with random anime like character icons on it, but is still somewhat stigmatized by the older people.

[Triple_R]

Well, I went Christmas shopping today, at the nearest Wal-Mart.

Saw walls upon walls of DVDs there.

... Only two of them were anime. Some Pokemon DVD, and an AstroBoy DVD. Meanwhile, there were plenty of cartoon DVDs there (even including G.I. Joe, which startled me)... just not anime.


I don't know if I would want anime to become so huge that every other person loved it... but I'd probably like it to be more popular than this, honestly. :heh:


I get where the "don't want it to go mainstream" folks are coming from, but at the same time... I'm starting to worry a bit about the financial state of anime as a whole.

[HayashiTakara]

I think it depends on your location as well. Where you live. I've lived in NYC and Seattle all my life so, it's all I have to go by. And these cities have a very large asian population.

[GuidoHunter_Toki]

I think it depends on your location as well. Where you live. I've lived in NYC and Seattle all my life so, it's all I have to go by. And these cities have a very large asian population.

I live in Milwaukee and I have access to just about every anime you can get (available in stores). At my local mall there is Suncoast which carries a crude load of anime titles (from the obscure to the mainstream). I also have a place called Mega Media Xchange that carries a crap load of anime, and manga as well. Also I have Borders which carries Manga and anime, and My Best Buy has almost two complete aisles of anime. I actually see people quite frequently browsing the anime aisles at Best Buy and actually picking up DVDs to buy (maybe people around her are just more into anime:confused:). That suncoast store I was talking about also holds about every other month an "anime day" kind of sale/party which includes merchandise giveaways and even a cosplay contest.

So maybe location has something to do with it or maybe I just got lucky with all the stores that carry anime around here. All I know is that I usually don't have to buy DVDs online with all the variety I can find at my stores.

[Terrestrial Dream]

The problem with any niche hobby going mainstream is it generally gets watered down and catered to the lowest common denominator.

A good example is gaming. Gaming is now officially mainstream, and because of it, there's a lot more horrible crap out there than there was when gaming was a niche hobby. Shovelware becomes the rule, not the exception.

I'd say that animation from Japan always had large quantities of the film equivalent of shovelware, however. 90% of everything is shit after all. Ah yes but long as there is a demand for it then it should be fine. Even out of tons of crappy games there is plenty of good one. So as long as "the hardcore" demands anime we want then we will get it even though there might be few crappy one there and there.

[durack]

I think that the perception that people in the west perceive animation as being primarily for kids is incorrect. There is plenty of prime-time animation shows in the US.

The main issue here is that snime in its current state is aimed mostly at the Japanese otaku market while making a few extra bucks off otakus around the world. How can a product that is a niche item in Japan have a hope of wide success in an international market? For Japanese studios to succeed with Western audiences, they will have to start making shows that Western audiences want, which is impossible. Can you see a Japanese studio making King of the Hill?

Miyazaki shows are a different story because they are aimed at a general audience, not at otakus (and even then, they are not THAT successful, Disney pushes them for contractual reasons and also because John Lasseter likes them).

[animeboy12]

A good example is gaming. Gaming is now officially mainstream, and because of it, there's a lot more horrible crap out there than there was when gaming was a niche hobby. Shovelware becomes the rule, not the exception.


Heh, no offese man, but you should catch up on your gaming history or watch some angry videogame nerd because even when gaming was niche, which was a long danm time ago, there was god awful shit in the same capacity as we have now.

I think the only reason why people think gaming has "officially" become mainstream nowadays is because the diversity of the audience has changed and we're finally pulling in much more mature crowds, aka people that have a voice, but don't let that fool you into believing that videogames of this generation now elevated the videogame industry as a whole into mainstream status. Probably since the Nintendo era videogames have always been able to pull in big numbers.


Even American based Gaming studios hire art studios in japan and korea to produce anime style art work for their games. Like my friend's company Fifth Cell (the developers that made drawn to life) outsources their art work from korea.

Yea, but not that many. The weird thing is that the mentally that's coming out of Japanese in that they need to make games more western centric to appeal to the western audience
http://www.destructoid.com/last-guardian-dev-japan-must-appeal-to-the-west-or-die--148947.phtml

we see that with a lot of new Japanese developed games,
Resident evil 5, Metal gear Solid 4, quantum theory, Bayonetta, Mad world, Devil may cry and the list goes on.

The more I think about, I can't really think on any big name titles from the West or Japan that didn't try to appeal to a western audience.

Miyazaki films are published state side by Disney (you can't get more western than that) and they are widely acclaimed by western film critics and viewers alike.


And yet they still don't make as much money, or have the mind share that most disney movies despite receiving similar critical acclaim.


Anyway, as far as OP question goes, like many of the posters I'm not sure anime's mainstream appeal has increased, heck I'd even say it's definitely decrease here in the west as there are no longer that many anime series with good time slots. If anything, even if anime is more popular then it was back then we would at least heard of SOME increase of profit in the industry.


I get where the "don't want it to go mainstream" folks are coming from, but at the same time... I'm starting to worry a bit about the financial state of anime as a whole.
Well, as vexx said as long as the people running the industry are self aware that it's niche then there should really be anything to worry about. I'll admit though I would be very scared to see the anime industry get mainstream recognition in the U.S because 1) mainstream industry are just as fallible as niche sectors 2) It would most likely translate to more western centric works as with the videogame industry.

[GundamFan]

From what I have seen anime has definetly peaked. I doubt it will ever make a big jump again the content of most of the shows just doesn't seem like it would appeal to the general public and it's public image at least for the adult show is that it's for perverts.

And it really is to bad that it didn't go mainstream it would have given us some real benefits lower cost for merchandise such as dvds and easy tv access. I realize there would have be more junk shows released but with what anime prices are today and the small amount of adult programming being aired it seems like a reasonable trade off.

[Vexx]

I think that the perception that people in the west perceive animation as being primarily for kids is incorrect. There is plenty of prime-time animation shows in the US.

The main difference is that prime-time animation in the US is purely satire/comedy/parody/sketch oriented. Whereas animation for adults in Japan tackles many subjects only handled by live-action (if at all) in the US (romance, drama, action, etc).

I also note an enormous amount of "its outside of my comfort zone scary" in Americans in terms of *any* foreign fare so that's intermingled in this.

And it really is to bad that it didn't go mainstream it would have given us some real benefits lower cost for merchandise such as dvds and easy tv access. I realize there would have be more junk shows released but with what anime prices are today and the small amount of adult programming being aired it seems like a reasonable trade off.If you've watched ANYTHING you love "go mainstream" you should know that what you end up with loses the fundamentals of what made it so good. Its like the mainstreamers see someone enjoying an apple, take the idea of eating apples, and then mass-produce cubes of shiny apple-skins. Niche industries are usually "all about the quality" because they know their smaller audience appreciates ($$) it.

Besides, we already pay amazingly low prices for our DVDs (compared to Japan) which even includes the additional cost of subs/dubs. I believe tv/cable in its traditional model (passive fixed time delivery) is going the way of the whale oil lamp industry...

[Terrestrial Dream]

If you've watched ANYTHING you love "go mainstream" you should know that what you end up with loses the fundamentals of what made it so good. Its like the mainstreamers see someone enjoying an apple, take the idea of eating apples, and then mass-produce cubes of shiny apple-skins. Niche industries are usually "all about the quality" because they know their smaller audience appreciates ($$) it.

Besides, we already pay amazingly low prices for our DVDs (compared to Japan) which even includes the additional cost of subs/dubs. I believe tv/cable in its traditional model (passive fixed time delivery) is going the way of the whale oil lamp industry... I would like to play devil's advocate on this one. Is the current anime industry really that high in quality? In even anime is niche industry inside there seems to be mainstream part as well. That part doesn't really seem to be all about quality but rather repeating the similar formula. So maybe even going mainstream wouldn't really affect the direction and the thinking of the industry in general.

[GundamFan]

I would like to play devil's advocate on this one. Is the current anime industry really that high in quality? In even anime is niche industry inside there seems to be mainstream part as well. That part doesn't really seem to be all about quality but rather repeating the similar formula. So maybe even going mainstream wouldn't really affect the direction and the thinking of the industry in general.

Terrestrial I was just thinking the same thing anime as a whole anime has already gone down in quality over the last decade and the amount of fan service has gone way up.

Also Vexx you know there was a time I would have agreed with about the dvds but the cost of them is getting so out of control that it's down right prohibitive of buying them when 12 espisode boxsets are running you $40 -$60 range often these days.

[Triple_R]

My main issue with the anti-mainstream side of the debate is this...

If we were talking about one particular show, or a fleet of shows produced by one animation studio... then yes, I could easily and quickly understand the antipathy towards going mainstream. The reason being that if it goes mainstream, then much of what you liked originally may be lost, and may be lost permanently and in every area.


However, that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about an entire entertainment genre with numerous separate content providers (i.e. animation studios) and countless different shows. If anime goes big-time mainstream tomorrow, KyoAni is still going to be making smart moe shows because smart moe shows is its bread and butter and what it does well.


Even if anime became as big in America as football is, or became as big in Canada as hockey is, you'd still have your otaku-focused shows, because there would still be a significant niche market looking for that. I don't think that they'd ever go out of style completely.


By sticking strictly to a niche market, though, I think that the variety of shows out there is reduced. Anime seems much more derivative in general, and self-referential in its humor specifically, today than it was back in the 90s, to me. The variety of anime shows is arguably hurt more by staying niche than by going mainstream.


So... I'm really not sold on this argument that anime going mainstream would be bad for it.

[roriconfan]

Once upon a time there was Victor Hugo and Asimov and Lovecraft and Tolkien. They were not widely accepted for many years and the ones who knew them loved them. And then everyone pretty much used them as the cornerstone of a shitload of mediocrities. Some were very good but still most are still sitcoms for most.

Back when I began watching anime in the late 80s, nobody knew them, nobody cared about them. They were rare and bizzare and each one was a mindtrip. Finding another person who liked them was a special moment.
And now you see Naruto bandanas and Advent Children pendants on every store while every 10 yo who hardly knows what it is all about wears Bleach themed t-shirts. Plus, most modern series really are moeblobs in my eyes and most newer viewers see anime as a simple time killer. Yes I find that lame. It used to be special for the viewers and now it turned to a time killer for most.

Mainstream sucks.

It is as they say: Less is more, more is less.

[durack]

The main difference is that prime-time animation in the US is purely satire/comedy/parody/sketch oriented. Whereas animation for adults in Japan tackles many subjects only handled by live-action (if at all) in the US (romance, drama, action, etc).

I personally have a hard time calling most anime "animation for adults" - well, OK, otakus are adults but they are a special subset of the adult population. Sorta ties in with remarks above pertaining to poor quality of most anime shows - most of the stuff is full of cliches, primitive if any character development and pointless fanservice. I mean, look at what's on TV this season? The Sacred Boobsmith? Couple of new harem shows?


I also note an enormous amount of "its outside of my comfort zone scary" in Americans in terms of *any* foreign fare so that's intermingled in this.


I think for the general public it is more an issue of not finding it relevant - same reason people in Japan don't care much for Simsons or South Park (or Seinfeld for that matter).

And foreign cinema/arthouse fans will not watch anime because it is too primitive for their tastes. They'll watch Persepolis instead. That's animation for adults. What does most anime offer instead? Cookie-cutter tsundere characters?

[durack]

Once upon a time there was Victor Hugo and Asimov and Lovecraft and Tolkien. They were not widely accepted for many years and the ones who knew them loved them.

I do not know about Lovecraft and you could sorta fit Tolkien into this description (although his popularity was steadily increasing ever since he published his books eventually reaching cult status), but Victor Hugo? He was as famous as one could get, was a member of French Academy and was active in politics. And Asimov was always a shrewd businessman and an absolute master of self-promotion.

[Ansalem]

Once upon a time there was Victor Hugo and Asimov and Lovecraft and Tolkien. They were not widely accepted for many years and the ones who knew them loved them. And then everyone pretty much used them as the cornerstone of a shitload of mediocrities. Some were very good but still most are still sitcoms for most.


I'm really confused by your comparison here. Victor Hugo was a writer in the Romantic style in the 19th century whose writings were widely popular with the French masses. The other three are important figures in establishing the popularity of modern fiction genres in the 20th century. And of those three, only Lovecraft was relatively obscure during the time of writings. Asimov's and Tolkien's works were widely read during their lifetime. Also, sitcom means situation comedy and is a genre of radio and then television show, so I don't really understand what your meaning is there. Also, I think it's kind of overreaching and insulting to call the majority of fantasy, sci-fi, and horror fiction as mediocre, as though by writing in the same genre of greats that new authors have somehow dirtied it.

[0utf0xZer0]

I would like to play devil's advocate on this one. Is the current anime industry really that high in quality? In even anime is niche industry inside there seems to be mainstream part as well. That part doesn't really seem to be all about quality but rather repeating the similar formula. So maybe even going mainstream wouldn't really affect the direction and the thinking of the industry in general.

If you switch the core audience for anime from hardcore Japanese fans to average Americans, the styles of shows that get made will change. And then the question becomes what separates anime targetted at an American audience from anything else produced for an American audience. Granted, the animation medium is better suited to doing certain things than live action, but I would think most writers and directors

I know for me, part of the reason I got into anime was just that it was entirely different from anything


Also Vexx you know there was a time I would have agreed with about the dvds but the cost of them is getting so out of control that it's down right prohibitive of buying them when 12 espisode boxsets are running you $40 -$60 range often these days.

How is $40 to $60 for a twelve episode box set any higher than the previous three to four discs at $20+ each that was the previous standard?

Even if anime became as big in America as football is, or became as big in Canada as hockey is, you'd still have your otaku-focused shows, because there would still be a significant niche market looking for that. I don't think that they'd ever go out of style completely.

Truly niche products tend to remain niche. Products that are primarily niche but have a bit of mainstream appeal will tend to veer sharply towards the latter if the mainstream suddenly takes interest.

Personally, I think that if anime were suddenly to go mainstream in the west, you'd see the industry rapidly divide into camps targeting Japanese and western audiences... and then you'd see American companies try and compete with those targeting the later.


I personally have a hard time calling most anime "animation for adults" - well, OK, otakus are adults but they are a special subset of the adult population. Sorta ties in with remarks above pertaining to poor quality of most anime shows - most of the stuff is full of cliches, primitive if any character development and pointless fanservice. I mean, look at what's on TV this season? The Sacred Boobsmith? Couple of new harem shows?

So I take it you also consider American produced entertainment that is full of cliches and poor character development automatically not for adults?

Besides, fall 2009 is widely regarded as a weak season. As compared to summer - when my big three for a season are titles like Bakemonogatari, Umineko, and Spice and Wolf II, that's a good season.

[Ansalem]

So I take it you also consider American produced entertainment that is full of cliches and poor character development automatically not for adults?


This is pretty much the reality, I would have to agree with outfox. To expand on that:
Cold Case - Old Crime
Law and Order - Crime
Law and Order: Criminal Intent - Devious Crime
Law and Order: SVU - Nasty Crime
NCIS - Military Crime
NCIS Los Angelos Military Crime 2
Criminal Minds - Serial Killer Crime
Numb3rs - Crime with patterns
Bones - Crime with bones
The Mentalist - Crimes with mental investigation
CSI - Crime with evidence
CSI NY - Crime with evidence 2
CSI Miami - Crime with Evidence 3

Every one of these shows is episodic in nature, generally providing poor character, and certainly full of cliches. That's 13 shows about investigating crime, currently airing, from the top of my head. And every one of those shows is intended for adults. So lacking character development and being full of cliches doesn't necessarily mean that anime isn't adult-oriented. There are also a lot more anime that have progressive instead of episodic plot, generally providing more character development simply due to the format.

[Triple_R]

Truly niche products tend to remain niche. Products that are primarily niche but have a bit of mainstream appeal

I would argue that anime, as it exists currently, is primarily niche but has a bit of mainstream appeal.


will tend to veer sharply towards the latter if the mainstream suddenly takes interest.

With the most popular titles... perhaps so.




Personally, I think that if anime were suddenly to go mainstream in the west, you'd see the industry rapidly divide into camps targeting Japanese and western audiences... and then you'd see American companies try and compete with those targeting the later.

Probably. And I think that this would be ideal, as it would have two effects...

1) American companies producing western animation would become more like anime in order to compete with the more mainstream animes. So, you'd have more Avatars and Teen Titans and fewer cartoon sitcom comedies. So, the quality of American animation would rise as a result of greater competition from Japan, imo.

2) Anime itself would become more diverse, which can only be a good thing, in my mind. You'd have anime that's still devoted to a Japanese otaku audience (and hence would also appeal to American otakus), but you'd also have more mainstream animes that lack some of those otaku elements.


This is, of course, a best case scenario. There are risks in anime going more mainstream - I won't deny it - but I do think that anime going more mainstream would probably be preferable to where anime seems to be heading now, imo: more niche, less diverse.


The kind of anime I've come to miss is the short, 26-to-52 episode action-oriented animes with good cohesive stories with strong narratives and sophisticated characters.

I think of animes like Black Cat, Buso Renkin, Elemental Gelade, Mai HiME, S-cry-ed, Soul Eater, and the original Kiddy Grade. Now, not all of these are terribly complex, of course, and I'm not claiming that they're all "high art"... but they do at least give you a touch of sophistication and an engaging plot with lots of action.


I'm just not seeing animes like these being produced these days. I had hoped that Kampfer, the Sacred Blacksmith, and/or Kiddy Girl-And would be like this... but thus far they've been more about otaku-focused humor than about actually dealing with plots. And while they have all had some action, it seems to take a backseat to comedy.

I'd like to see more anime shows where comedy is relief from the action... and not where action is relief from the comedy.

[Matrim]

Once upon a time there was Victor Hugo and Asimov and Lovecraft and Tolkien. They were not widely accepted for many years and the ones who knew them loved them. And then everyone pretty much used them as the cornerstone of a shitload of mediocrities. Some were very good but still most are still sitcoms for most.

Most of everything is crap. When things become mainstream the crap just gets better publicity. The science fiction golden age in the 40s and 50s is full of nigh on unreadable stuff including quite a few of Asimov's works. The anime industry is just as prone to fads and jumping on the bandwagon as other mainstream entertainment industries, so I doubt the apocalypse will come if anime is to become mainstream. The trick is always to find what it appeals to you among the sea of crap.

[roriconfan]

Still, in THOSE times publicity was far harder to be made and thus the quality of the work was a lot more important that fancy commercials. But look now, every book gets its own fancy commercial and everything is presented great by most. You are forced to watch / read everything just to be sure.

Although there were crap anime in the 80s too, most of them didn't go overseas. Today, everything does. Plus, tv airs way more kidstuff anime than it used to 10 years ago. Or at least in my country it does and we are a fine westernized nation, copying foreign trends.

And as I already said, newer cartoons got bolder and newer anime watered down to appeal to a wider audience. If something got much bolder in anime, that is fan service. And I am not fond of that.

[Ansalem]

Still, in THOSE times publicity was far harder to be made and thus the quality of the work was a lot more important that fancy commercials. But look now, every book gets its own fancy commercial and everything is presented great by most. You are forced to watch / read everything just to be sure.
I can't speak for everywhere, but in my experience I have never seen a commercial for a fantasy or sci-fi novel. Certainly information about them is more easily obtained due to the internet, but I don't think there's some sort of wide spread publicity promoting these books to some scale unknown in the early/mid 20th century. As far as quality, as some one stated earlier, there is an incredible amount of very bad writing in those genres from those times. You just don't know about them in specifics because only the works that have grown to be known as classic are the only ones that are still widely available and well-known. There are also books and stories by big name authors like Asimov, Clarke, and Heinlein that frankly aren't that good; they are simply out-shined by their other excellent works. As far as having to wade through every piece of fiction now to figure out what gems are, I don't think that's really true either. The late Robert Jordan, George R.R. Martin, and Terry Goodkind are just a few examples of authors widely considered to have excellent works in fantasy, and would be easily known to anyone that has an interest in the genre.

Although there were crap anime in the 80s too, most of them didn't go overseas. Today, everything does. Plus, tv airs way more kidstuff anime than it used to 10 years ago. Or at least in my country it does and we are a fine westernized nation, copying foreign trends.
And as I already said, newer cartoons got bolder and newer anime watered down to appeal to a wider audience. If something got much bolder in anime, that is fan service. And I am not fond of that.

Having access to more shows isn't a bad thing, even if some of them are bound to be bad. Kind in mind that quality is still subjective, and the more shows available to you, the more you will be able to find shows that you enjoy, whether they are widely consider good or not.

I'd also disagree with the idea that anime from say the 80's or 90's were somehow groundbreaking in comparison to the shows available now. I will certainly concede the point that there were many shows that were innovative and expanded genres or styles. However, there were plenty of shows as ordinary as many of the shows available today. Only looking back, people tend to emphasize these outstanding examples as the standard, not breaking it. For example, (and please take these with a grain of salt, for I'm not saying they are necessarily the best works ever) there have been several shows in the past few years that have presented innovative or unusual narrative, storytelling, or animation. I'll just go with three. Mononoke was certainly unique in its approach to animation. Death Note presented an epic, narrated battle of the mind. Bakemonogatari presented a show consisting almost entirely of dialogue without being boring. These shows have certainly stood out in some regard from others, just as the oft-invoked "ground breaking" shows from years past stood out from those around them.

[GundamFan]

How is $40 to $60 for a twelve episode box set any higher than the previous three to four discs at $20+ each that was the previous standard?


Because used to able to find 20-25 episode boxsets in that price range pretty regulary.

[Ansalem]

Because used to able to find 20-25 episode boxsets in that price range pretty regulary.

Well, there are a few things in play here. The prices of 26ish length boxsets aren't necessarily "double" the price of 13ish sets. They tend to be in the same price range, and more popular titles are generally more expensive. Keep in mind also that the original comment was that R1 releases are cheap relative to Japanese release, which usually cost between $30 and $50 per 3-4 episode disc. The reason the 13 length series are more expensive in comparison is that they are still not prohibitively expensive. Series released only as individual discs or partial box sets are generally much more expensive than series that have a full box set for the whole season.
From Amazon, recentish R1 box sets containing entire seasons:
Spice and Wolf: $35 (13 ep)
True Tears: $35 (13 ep)
Haruhi: $45 (14 ep)
Ghost Hunt: $49.99 (25 ep)
Claymore: $60 (26 ep)

[0utf0xZer0]

Because used to able to find 20-25 episode boxsets in that price range pretty regulary.

Almost all of which were rereleases.

Rereleases are always cheaper than first run. Funimation's original and rerelease versions of Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha were both 13 episode box sets, but the rerelease has an MSRP that's a third less than the original. Looking a little further back in Funi's catalog, each of Utawarerumono's six DVD's had a $30 MSRP at launch (although those discs were technically released by ADV). Funimation released a box set with a $70 MSRP earlier this year and will be launching a $40 MSRP set in 2010.

So yeah, age plays a big difference in how shows are priced.

[Irenicus]

Still, in THOSE times publicity was far harder to be made and thus the quality of the work was a lot more important that fancy commercials. But look now, every book gets its own fancy commercial and everything is presented great by most. You are forced to watch / read everything just to be sure.
Could you like, slow down with that grumpy old man act complaining about the young whippersnappers and their bad taste a little? You've been talking about it in threads after threads with this theme for a while you know. :eyebrow:

I ignored most of them but I figured somebody needs to say it by now.

Once upon a time there was Victor Hugo and Asimov and Lovecraft and Tolkien. They were not widely accepted for many years and the ones who knew them loved them. And then everyone pretty much used them as the cornerstone of a shitload of mediocrities. Some were very good but still most are still sitcoms for most.
False. Victor Hugo wasn't some obscure artist rediscovered and accepted after his death. Rather, he was big. France was a country where the intellectual elite -- writers, poets, philosophers -- played a much larger political role than in most other countries, and good old Hugo was definitely a major figure among them, if not the biggest among his contemporaries. It was a major grief for Napoleon III when he failed to win over France's premier intellectual. Just to show Victor's influence, the common perception of Louis Napoleon as "the little Napoleon" who couldn't hold a candle to his mighty grandfather owed much to the man's relentless polemics.

Les Miserables' release didn't come out of a vacuum. It was big, very big. As big as a book gets in the 19th century. That it was savaged by many critics is inevitable too, an obvious for anyone who ever read it. In short, despite the high-minded idealism, the scope of vision, the grand scale of the epic which won it a place among the greatest of classics, it was also ridiculously undisciplined, overwhelmingly flowery, full of unnecessary asides, the kind of book where any half-decent critic would point to and say: don't write like this, you dolt, unless you're Victor Hugo or have the vision to match his.

I also don't recall many works you can really call an imitation of Les Miserables. Actually, I don't recall any.

Likewise, I call bull on your claim that Asimov and Tolkien were ignored. None of these guys were some Kafkaesque tragic figure to die in depression unacknowledged and unknown. On the contrary, Asimov was a household name among SF circles by the 1950's, and by his death he was the Master of the Universe. I won't say much about Tolkien at all, except that The Lord of the Rings was a tremendous commercial success in its own time, not just later. Frankly, people knew good stuff, people got good stuff, people bought good stuff, and the modern world with its easy access to everything definitely did not bring the fucking apocalypse down on the good stuff. You just happen to not like the modern good stuff for whatever reason.

Really, really strange colors you've got on your nostalgia glasses there.

[Terrestrial Dream]

Terrestrial I was just thinking the same thing anime as a whole anime has already gone down in quality over the last decade and the amount of fan service has gone way up.

Also Vexx you know there was a time I would have agreed with about the dvds but the cost of them is getting so out of control that it's down right prohibitive of buying them when 12 espisode boxsets are running you $40 -$60 range often these days. Well I wouldn't say the quality went down but there do seem to be increase in certain amount of fan services. But still I wouldn't say that equals quality going down as there has been excellent animes in this decade.

If you switch the core audience for anime from hardcore Japanese fans to average Americans, the styles of shows that get made will change. And then the question becomes what separates anime targetted at an American audience from anything else produced for an American audience. Granted, the animation medium is better suited to doing certain things than live action, but I would think most writers and directors

I know for me, part of the reason I got into anime was just that it was entirely different from anything I would think that if anime becomes more acceptable then wouldn't that mean that public became more accepting of anime instead anime trying to fit with the general western audience?

And interestingly enough your reasoning for getting into anime and mine is completely opposite. I got into anime because it was the mainstream stuff or I should say among kids it was mainstream. So because of that I really don't think mainstream is that bad.

[0utf0xZer0]

I would think that if anime becomes more acceptable then wouldn't that mean that public became more accepting of anime instead anime trying to fit with the general western audience?

Well, that depends on what sort of anime end up being the "breakthrough hits" for the mainstream. And realistically, I think that what anime needs to become mainstream in the west is some serious marketing muscle akin to that behind the average Hollywood blockbuster. And I doubt anyone is going to put that kind of money behind something that isn't in line with mainstream western tastes. The fact that the closest that anyone has come to putting this sort of marketting muscle behind an anime is getting Samuel L Jackson to dub an over the top action flick anime isn't exactly confidence inspiring either.


And interestingly enough your reasoning for getting into anime and mine is completely opposite. I got into anime because it was the mainstream stuff or I should say among kids it was mainstream. So because of that I really don't think mainstream is that bad.

I actually meant to delete that thought fragment since I wasn't sure where I was going with it. But if you want the full story, I joined a club at my university to play D&D. Said club also showed anime, and I ended up getting hooked on Moon Phase, which while not really niche isn't exactly the kind of anime that gets on cable.

[Jetbent]

Well, that's your opinion and that of Jehova's Witnesses. I just want people to happily live their lifes. I never felt the urge to shove people my hobbies down their throat. Then again, don't see myself as member of the circle of "true fans", I just enjoy anime. So yeah.


I don't recall saying "shove anime down people's throats." I was saying that if you're a true fan of something, you're not going to get mad at other people for liking it too. And there's a difference between mentioning you're a fan of something, and then trying to force someone to watch it. Besides, why are you flaming a religion on an anime thread? That seems kind of inappropriate to me.

[npcomplete]

Probably. And I think that this would be ideal, as it would have two effects...

1) American companies producing western animation would become more like anime in order to compete with the more mainstream animes. So, you'd have more Avatars and Teen Titans and fewer cartoon sitcom comedies. So, the quality of American animation would rise as a result of greater competition from Japan, imo.

2) Anime itself would become more diverse, which can only be a good thing, in my mind. You'd have anime that's still devoted to a Japanese otaku audience (and hence would also appeal to American otakus), but you'd also have more mainstream animes that lack some of those otaku elements.

This is, of course, a best case scenario. There are risks in anime going more mainstream - I won't deny it - but I do think that anime going more mainstream would probably be preferable to where anime seems to be heading now, imo: more niche, less diverse.

Without the mainstream aspect coming from (1) above, I'd say going more mainstream would result in the opposite: lack of diversity. Right now we ALL sorts of anime of all types and tropes, a very broad spectrum being produced -- always something for everyone. Pushing the entire industry to go more mainstream would cut all of that out.


The kind of anime I've come to miss is the short, 26-to-52 episode action-oriented animes with good cohesive stories with strong narratives and sophisticated characters.

I think of animes like Black Cat, Buso Renkin, Elemental Gelade, Mai HiME, S-cry-ed, Soul Eater, and the original Kiddy Grade. Now, not all of these are terribly complex, of course, and I'm not claiming that they're all "high art"... but they do at least give you a touch of sophistication and an engaging plot with lots of action.


I'm just not seeing animes like these being produced these days. I had hoped that Kampfer, the Sacred Blacksmith, and/or Kiddy Girl-And would be like this... but thus far they've been more about otaku-focused humor than about actually dealing with plots. And while they have all had some action, it seems to take a backseat to comedy.

I think some people's perception of a lack might be colored by perceived displacement from certain shows because still I see large amount of 'more serious', non-ecchi, non-primarily-comedy shows constantly being produced. So far just this year for action, adventure/fantasy and drama, I can think of:

Aoi Bungaku, Darker than Black 2, Phantom, Cross Game, Koukaku no Regios, Rideback, FMA2, Kemono no Souja Erin, Konnichiwa Anne, Shikabane Hime Kuro, East of Eden TV + movie, Natsume Yuujinchou 2, Viper's Creed, Hajime no Ippo 2, Kurokami, Tetsuwan Birdy Decode 2 TV + OVA, Major 5, Munto TV + movie, Spice and Wolf 2, Letter Bee, Genji Monogatari Sennenki, Denpa Teki na Kanojo, Tsubasa Shunraiki, Isekai no Seikishi Monogatari, Shin Mazinger Shougeki! Z-Hen, Dogs: Stray Dogs OVA, Utawarerumono OVA, Saint Seiya OVAs, Bakemonogatari, Higurashi Rei, Umineko, White Album, Taishou Yakyuu Musume, 07-Ghost, Sengoku Basara, Book of Bantorra, Cencoroll, Summer Wars movie, Nodame Cantible OVA, First Squad, Senjou no Valkyria, Tears to Tiara, Shangri-La, Souten Kouro, Canaan, Fuyu no Sonata, Tokyo Magnitude 8.0, Ristorante Paradiso, Guin Saga

I'm sure I'm missing some more but that still seems like a lot to me and that's excluding a few other shows that you may not think qualifies like: Sora no Manimani, Umi Monogatari, Aoi Hana, Sasameki Koto, Marimite4, Kimi ni Todoke, and new shounen like Fairy Tail

[npcomplete]

15 years for ADV Studios was a long time but it didn't work for them any more so they tried something different. Geneon took a gamble by releasing as many english titles as possible beyond their means and now their done.
Oh, ADV is still very much alive and kicking with most of the same folks.. just under a couple different names.. all of which could collectively be referred to as neo-ADV :heh:
And you still have some Geneon titles being now distributed by Funimation. But their problems were mostly due to dubbing everything they licensed, the high licensing costs back then, and expensive singles.

Mm.... Funimation is the big bad guy now... they seem to be behind 90% of all new licensing, so how well anime does in the U.S. will probably be largely affected by them now and in the near future. They've been around for a while though, so I don't think they're going to be dying out any time soon.
Actually Funi's marketshare is between "56% to 60%".

The rest of the companies will handle the more niche titles, ones that may not justify the cost of a dub. Except for Viz who handles much fewer titles but tries to go "big" on each one. Heavy marketing for Honey and Clover, Nana on itunes, Monster on TV (extremely rare). In addition they're the master licensor for Bleach, Blue Dragon, and most recently the master licensor for Vampire Knight franchise (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/press-release/2009-09-29/viz-media-becomes-master-licensor-for-gothic-animated-series-vampire-knight). This mean they own all the rights to anything related for it in the US and Canada (anime, tv rights, manga, novels, figures, merchandise).

What's wrong with letting the anime industry expand and even profiting from a much larger audience? Surely with the industry the way it is right now, it wouldn't hurt to win the approval of the masses outside of Japan.
As I alluded to in my previous post, I don't think it needs to expand because it already has, very far and wide -- unless you're looking for a complete Disneyfication or Pixarfication of anime. What's needed is maybe some promotion, some marketing, more word of mouth for certain titles that you want to promote in the US. Viz for example has a theater in San Fransisco entirely dedicated to anime. Maybe that's what needed, I don't know. Actually I see anime already pretty popular among younger people though.

[Spectacular_Insanity]

For me, the growing acceptance of anime boils down to one main pro and con:

PRO: People no longer give you a "what a loser" look when you say you watch anime.

CON: Hollywood takes good source material (anime or manga) and finds endless ways to f*ck it up.

[0utf0xZer0]

I think some people's perception of a lack might be colored by perceived displacement from certain shows because still I see large amount of 'more serious', non-ecchi, non-primarily-comedy shows constantly being produced. So far just this year for action, adventure/fantasy and drama, I can think of:

Aoi Bungaku, Darker than Black 2, Phantom, Cross Game, Koukaku no Regios, Rideback, FMA2, Kemono no Souja Erin, Konnichiwa Anne, Shikabane Hime Kuro, East of Eden TV + movie, Natsume Yuujinchou 2, Viper's Creed, Hajime no Ippo 2, Kurokami, Tetsuwan Birdy Decode 2 TV + OVA, Major 5, Munto TV + movie, Spice and Wolf 2, Letter Bee, Genji Monogatari Sennenki, Denpa Teki na Kanojo, Tsubasa Shunraiki, Isekai no Seikishi Monogatari, Shin Mazinger Shougeki! Z-Hen, Dogs: Stray Dogs OVA, Utawarerumono OVA, Saint Seiya OVAs, Bakemonogatari, Higurashi Rei, Umineko, White Album, Taishou Yakyuu Musume, 07-Ghost, Sengoku Basara, Book of Bantorra, Cencoroll, Summer Wars movie, Nodame Cantible OVA, First Squad, Senjou no Valkyria, Tears to Tiara, Shangri-La, Souten Kouro, Canaan, Fuyu no Sonata, Tokyo Magnitude 8.0, Ristorante Paradiso, Guin Saga

I'm sure I'm missing some more and that's excluding a few other shows that you may not think qualifies like: Sora no Manimani, Umi Monogatari, Aoi Hana, Sasameki Koto, Marimite4, Kimi ni Todoke, and new shounen like Fairy Tail

I think that some of the people who complain about how everything is crap nowadays and keep pointing to the same few shows need to take a serious look at that list and ask themselves "how many of these did I actually try?".

Triple_R's split fanbase theory is kind of interesting though. Personally I feel that the hardcore otaku targetted stuff would stick around, but that the semi-otaku stuff would probably tilt increasingly towards the mainstream. We can look to PC gaming over the years as the line between PC and console has blurred for an example... there's certain devs that still pretty much target exclusively PC gamers, but the ones that are heavily invested in both platforms tend increasingly towards the console side, sometimes to the point of absurdity (the ability to heal gunshot wounds in a Rainbow Six game? What the hell Ubisoft?).

(Interesting, the PC gaming example, like the idea of anime hitting big in the west, has a regional component to it. The style of games developed in countries with a less developed console gaming market (such as many eastern European countries) is quite different from those made in countries with a more developed console game market in my experience.)

[Revenger1589]

I think that some of the people who complain about how everything is crap nowadays and keep pointing to the same few shows need to take a serious look at that list and ask themselves "how many of these did I actually try?".

I agree with this completely, people who claim anime nowadays is all moecrap obviously don't even take the time to check what is airing at the moment. The fact that most people don't talk about anything other than moe anime doesn't mean they don't exist.

The 26-52 episodes action anime that Triple R mentions is still being produced, out of the top of my head I can name four that are airing right now, Fairy Tail, FMA, Needless and Bantorra.

There are a lot of good, non moe anime every year, but people love to talk only about moe. We aren't lacking in variety, but you have to search for the good stuff.

[Sheba]

False. Victor Hugo wasn't some obscure artist rediscovered and accepted after his death. Rather, he was big. France was a country where the intellectual elite -- writers, poets, philosophers -- played a much larger political role than in most other countries, and good old Hugo was definitely a major figure among them, if not the biggest among his contemporaries. It was a major grief for Napoleon III when he failed to win over France's premier intellectual. Just to show Victor's influence, the common perception of Louis Napoleon as "the little Napoleon" who couldn't hold a candle to his mighty grandfather owed much to the man's relentless polemics.

Les Miserables' release didn't come out of a vacuum. It was big, very big. As big as a book gets in the 19th century. That it was savaged by many critics is inevitable too, an obvious for anyone who ever read it. In short, despite the high-minded idealism, the scope of vision, the grand scale of the epic which won it a place among the greatest of classics, it was also ridiculously undisciplined, overwhelmingly flowery, full of unnecessary asides, the kind of book where any half-decent critic would point to and say: don't write like this, you dolt, unless you're Victor Hugo or have the vision to match his.

I also don't recall many works you can really call an imitation of Les Miserables. Actually, I don't recall any.

Likewise, I call bull on your claim that Asimov and Tolkien were ignored. None of these guys were some Kafkaesque tragic figure to die in depression unacknowledged and unknown. On the contrary, Asimov was a household name among SF circles by the 1950's, and by his death he was the Master of the Universe. I won't say much about Tolkien at all, except that The Lord of the Rings was a tremendous commercial success in its own time, not just later. Frankly, people knew good stuff, people got good stuff, people bought good stuff, and the modern world with its easy access to everything definitely did not bring the fucking apocalypse down on the good stuff. You just happen to not like the modern good stuff for whatever reason.

Really, really strange colors you've got on your nostalgia glasses there.

Thank you for putting in words what I wanted to say about Hugo, Tolkien and Asimov.
Seriously, a french writer that got buried in the Panthéon (the greatest funerary honor for the finest of the nation) the year of his death was anything but ignored by all!

[Triple_R]

Without the mainstream aspect coming from (1) above, I'd say going more mainstream would result in the opposite: lack of diversity. Right now we ALL sorts of anime of all types and tropes, a very broad spectrum being produced -- always something for everyone.

From what I've seen so far this year (which is a fair bit, but certainly not exhaustive), I disagree. It doesn't seem to be a broad spectrum of anime at all. Also, for you to list animes like Bakemonogatari, Spice and Wolf II, and Umineko as examples of the sort of animes that I feel are currently lacking... either you're deliberately clouding the discussion just to defend this year of anime, or you simply don't get what sort of animes that I'm talking about.

By "action-oriented" animes, I'm talking about animes where there's serious fights... fights with consequences... at least every other episode.

Bakemonogatari, Umineko, and Spice and Wolf II absolutely don't count here.


Pushing the entire industry to go more mainstream would cut all of that out.

I don't think that it would. Quite the contrary, I think that a more mainstream anime would mean a broader spectrum of anime than what we currently have. I think that you'd have more action-packed anime because, in my experience, that's something that even current casual anime audiences like. Meanwhile, more hardcore anime audiences seem to prefer dialogue-heavy moe or fanservice anime. That's fine - I like some of those shows too - but I miss some of that more action-oriented fare that can compliment it.


I agree with this completely, people who claim anime nowadays is all moecrap obviously don't even take the time to check what is airing at the moment. The fact that most people don't talk about anything other than moe anime doesn't mean they don't exist.

The 26-52 episodes action anime that Triple R mentions is still being produced, out of the top of my head I can name four that are airing right now, Fairy Tail, FMA, Needless and Bantorra.

I'll be surprised if Fairy Tail only gets 52 episodes. I suspect that it's going to be joining the big three shounen titles, although I doubt it will be quite as popular as them. The reason that I specified an episode limit length is to distinguish these shorter animes from their seemingly endless cousins... because the endless cousins tends to have excessive amounts of filler that's a real turn off to me.

I tried Needless for several episodes, and I felt that it was very much lacking. It admittedly has the action-packed element that I'm looking for, but I found the characters and plot unsatisfying. Just my opinion.

FMA... FMA is a special case where I watched through the entire original (including the Conqueror of Shambala movie), and I was happy with that anime original take. I might give the new FMA a try, though, even though I was very satisfied with the original.

Bantorra... that I'm not familiar with. Perhaps this is worth giving a try, and may in fact be the sort of anime that I'm alluding to. Thank you, if so.

At least you seem to have a pretty clear idea of the sort of anime I'm talking about from your four suggestions made.



There are a lot of good, non moe anime every year, but people love to talk only about moe. We aren't lacking in variety, but you have to search for the good stuff.

It's not that I necessarily want less moe. It's that I'd like a couple more anime of the "more action, less talking" variety to compliment the dialogue-heavy anime that I have enjoyed this year.

[Ansalem]

By "action-oriented" animes, I'm talking about animes where there's serious fights... fights with consequences... at least every other episode.

Bakemonogatari, Umineko, and Spice and Wolf II absolutely don't count here.

At least you seem to have a pretty clear idea of the sort of anime I'm talking about from your four suggestions made.

It's not that I necessarily want less moe. It's that I'd like a couple more anime of the "more action, less talking" variety to compliment the dialogue-heavy anime that I have enjoyed this year.

Some more recent titles like this from the last year or so would include Canaan and Ga-rei Zero, although they are around 13 episodes in length instead of 26-52, as is the trend with a lot of shows the past few years.

[Triple_R]

Some more recent titles like this from the last year or so would include Canaan and Ga-rei Zero, although they are around 13 episodes in length instead of 26-52, as is the trend with a lot of shows the past few years.

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll take a look at them as well. :)

[animeboy12]

From what I've seen so far this year (which is a fair bit, but certainly not exhaustive), I disagree. It doesn't seem to be a broad spectrum of anime at all. Also, for you to list animes like Bakemonogatari, Spice and Wolf II, and Umineko as examples of the sort of animes that I feel are currently lacking... either you're deliberately clouding the discussion just to defend this year of anime, or you simply don't get what sort of animes that I'm talking about.

By "action-oriented" animes, I'm talking about animes where there's serious fights... fights with consequences... at least every other episode.

Bakemonogatari, Umineko, and Spice and Wolf II absolutely don't count here.

Yea, but



Aoi Bungaku, Darker than Black 2, Phantom, Cross Game, Koukaku no Regios, Rideback, FMA2, Kemono no Souja Erin, Konnichiwa Anne, Shikabane Hime Kuro, East of Eden TV + movie, Natsume Yuujinchou 2, Viper's Creed, Hajime no Ippo 2, Kurokami, Tetsuwan Birdy Decode 2 TV + OVA, Major 5, Munto TV + movie, Spice and Wolf 2, Letter Bee, Genji Monogatari Sennenki, Denpa Teki na Kanojo, Tsubasa Shunraiki, Isekai no Seikishi Monogatari, Shin Mazinger Shougeki! Z-Hen, Dogs: Stray Dogs OVA, Utawarerumono OVA, Saint Seiya OVAs, Bakemonogatari, Higurashi Rei, Umineko, White Album, Taishou Yakyuu Musume, 07-Ghost, Sengoku Basara, Book of Bantorra, Cencoroll, Summer Wars movie, Nodame Cantible OVA, First Squad, Senjou no Valkyria, Tears to Tiara, Shangri-La, Souten Kouro, Canaan, Fuyu no Sonata, Tokyo Magnitude 8.0, Ristorante Paradiso, Guin Saga

I'm sure I'm missing some more but that still seems like a lot to me and that's excluding a few other shows that you may not think qualifies like: Sora no Manimani, Umi Monogatari, Aoi Hana, Sasameki Koto, Marimite4, Kimi ni Todoke, and new shounen like Fairy Tail

These do count and not only are they over half his list but also yes, he is missing a few(a lot).

Also, not trying a dick or anything but saying that there aren't a lot of action anime series and not having seen both Ga-rei Zero and Canaan, which were two pretty big action anime series of this year is.....I dunno, if anything I just think it proves 0utf0xZer0, and npcomplete point that your experience with anime is dependent more on you than the industry.

Also, I dunno whether or not it's right or wrong, but I really would try to leave personally opinion of certain anime series out of topics like these when industry and what's out there is the main focus. I'm not saying that they don't have some merit but they generally just confuse things and give people a cheap way out to dismiss counterpoints.

[0utf0xZer0]

Some more recent titles like this from the last year or so would include Canaan and Ga-rei Zero, although they are around 13 episodes in length instead of 26-52, as is the trend with a lot of shows the past few years.

While I wouldn't call either of them classics, I'd definitely shortlist Canaan and Ga-rei Zero as being two of the better action shows of the past few seasons - since fall 2008, basically.

I'm surprised that I haven't seen much mention of Darker than Black II yet. While it's best to have seen the first season, I know a number of people who are enjoying the show who didn't see it. And I actually feel the show is better than the first season for a couple reasons. First, it dropped the "two episode arc" format of the original in favour of a running plotline. Second, that it gave us a chance to get to know Suou before throwing her headlong into the world of contractors... makes her more sympathetic than many of the show's previous leads.

The other two I'd suggest looking into would be fall 2008's Toaru Majutsu no Index and spring 2009's Requiem for the Phantom, although both suffer from inconsistant quality across the series. Index has a couple weak arcs (Deep Blood and the final arc) along with some very strong ones (the introductory arc, Accelerator, Last Order...), while Phantom has a few too many "mission of the week" episodes that just feel pointless until the plot kicks in around episode seven.

[Triple_R]

Yea, but



These do count and not only are they over half his list but also yes, he is missing a few(a lot).

Some of the ones that you say do count actually don't count, because they don't hit my 26-to-52 episode limit criteria.

For example, neither Ga-rei Zero nor Canaan reached 26 episodes. Now... a 13-episode action-oriented anime with good cohesive stories with strong narratives and sophisticated characters (don't forget those other criteria either - I'm not just looking for action for its own sake)... that's certainly good as well, but I generally prefer the 26-to-52 episode length.




Also, I dunno whether or not it's right or wrong, but I really would try to leave personally opinion of certain anime series out of topics like these when industry and what's out there is the main focus. I'm not saying that they don't have some merit but they generally just confuse things and give people a cheap way out to dismiss counterpoints.

It's not a "cheap way out" of anything. It was part of my initial list of criteria. I'm not "changing the goalposts" or anything like that - those goalposts were setup exactly like that to begin with.

I specified episode length, and some of my other criteria has a personal opinion/subjective element to them. It may end up that you feel that, say, ten 2009 anime meet all my criteria, while I find that none do... because your standard for something like, say, "sophisticated characters" may not be the same as my own. If so, that's fine, but that doesn't refute my criticisms of what anime today is lacking. It simply means that we'd disagree.


A poster or two were so quick to defend this year of anime that they just seemingly skipped over half or more of my criteria to try to find animes that might be listed under a certain genre or two that simply touched upon my critera... as if such a list alone was a refutation, when it's not. People are far too quick to defend modern anime, and to casually dismiss all criticisms against it, and to act like everything is just fine and dandy in the anime world... when it is arguably not.

At the very least, I should hope that people are willing to admit that there is room for improvement within the anime industry.


Edit: I want to make clear that I appreciate all the suggestions that people are making. They may turn out to be what I've been looking for, and if so, great and thank you. And this year of anime definitely has its bright spots, in fairness.

I just think that it's a bit... overly optimistic, perhaps, to act like everything is going splendidly in the anime industry right now. If it was, anime DVD sales figures would be better, I'm inclined to think.

[cyth]

Some folks suggested that it's silly not to wish anime mainstream acceptance. I don't know where to begin to reply, so I'll just jump in.

While it's true that mainstream acceptance brings about increased quantity and possibly more works to enjoy, I am worried that employing mass market business models would render other, niche business models out of fashion. What this means for the whole medium is that the market is then stuck with shows that appeal mostly to the lowest common denominator. Shows like that are worthless to me, not because they wouldn't appeal directly to the hardcore fan that I am, but because they would lose their diversity and relative artistic freedom, compared to works marketed to the masses.

If personal reasons for not wanting mainstream acceptance, such as the hobby losing part of its exclusivity, are considered silly, as someone suggested earlier, you can turn those tables around and ask fans who want more mainstream acceptance whether their motives are purely out of the economic benefit of the medium and its creators. Some people already came out in this thread and claimed that they want more people to know about anime so they could be more open about the hobby and talk to more people about it. That, to me, is just as silly as wanting anime fans to be part of something exclusive.

[animeboy12]

Darker than Black 2
Phantom
Koukaku no Regios
FMA2
Hajime No Ippo: New Challenger
Tears to Tiara
Shangri-La
Souten Kouro
Valkyria Chronicles
Bantorra
Kurokami
Examurai Sengoku
Arad Senki

Alright, here are a list of 23-26 episode action oriented anime, is it course not including series like shikabane hime kuro and Birdy the Mighty Decode:02 which had prequels only a couple months apart.
Too much, too little, or just right I'll leave that up to the rest of you guys.

I've seen 4 of these series


A poster or two were so quick to defend this year of anime that they just seemingly skipped over half or more of my criteria to try to find animes that might be listed under a certain genre or two that simply touched upon my critera... as if such a list alone was a refutation, when it's not. People are far too quick to defend modern anime, and to casually dismiss all criticisms against it, and to act like everything is just fine and dandy in the anime world... when it is arguably not.


Depends on what you type of anime world you're talking about. If your talking about business, I'm pretty sure a lot of anime fans are quite aware that the anime industry is not in good shape(then again many industries aren't in good shape today), most of us have heard of the ADV and Gonzo debacles. However if your saying the anime world as the types of anime series available that's where things get a little subjective.


At the very least, I should hope that people are willing to admit that there is room for improvement within the anime industry.

there is always improvements to be made, nobody's disagree with that. What people are disagreeing with is what qualifies as improvement, that's what I think.

[lubczyk]

Some folks suggested that it's silly not to wish anime mainstream acceptance. I don't know where to begin to reply, so I'll just jump in.

While it's true that mainstream acceptance brings about increased quantity and possibly more works to enjoy, I am worried that employing mass market business models would render other, niche business models out of fashion. What this means for the whole medium is that the market is then stuck with shows that appeal mostly to the lowest common denominator. Shows like that are worthless to me, not because they wouldn't appeal directly to the hardcore fan that I am, but because they would lose their diversity and relative artistic freedom, compared to works marketed to the masses.

If personal reasons for not wanting mainstream acceptance, such as the hobby losing part of its exclusivity, are considered silly, as someone suggested earlier, you can turn those tables around and ask fans who want more mainstream acceptance whether their motives are purely out of the economic benefit of the medium and its creators. Some people already came out in this thread and claimed that they want more people to know about anime so they could be more open about the hobby and talk to more people about it. That, to me, is just as silly as wanting anime fans to be part of something exclusive.

But isn't the opposite true as well. Anime is such a niche medium that it usually airs late and night and is made to to a niche of unsophisticated losers. Look at all ecchi crap. That stuff was made to appeal to losers.

It's like porno films. They appeal to idiots. If anime was to appeal to a wider audience, it could the revenue steam to expand and mature.

Look at the game industry. The Xbox 360/PS3 basically only have games that appeal to meatheads. The Wii, DS and PS2 are where you see innovative and more abstract and even more mature subjects and gameplay.

I feel that the anime industry is the same boat. Sponsors and committees are mostly interested in appealing to undereducated losers with pandering and fanservice and are really risk-averse due to a small revenue stream.

If anime continues on this course, it will go the way of the American comic book. It will become culturally and socially irrelevant due to the constant pandering to fans who resist change and want the same mindless drivel recycled for them.

While it's true that mainstream acceptance brings about increased quantity and possibly more works to enjoy, I am worried that employing mass market business models would render other, niche business models out of fashion. What this means for the whole medium is that the market is then stuck with shows that appeal mostly to the lowest common denominator. Shows like that are worthless to me, not because they wouldn't appeal directly to the hardcore fan that I am, but because they would lose their diversity and relative artistic freedom, compared to works marketed to the masses.

If personal reasons for not wanting mainstream acceptance, such as the hobby losing part of its exclusivity, are considered silly, as someone suggested earlier, you can turn those tables around and ask fans who want more mainstream acceptance whether their motives are purely out of the economic benefit of the medium and its creators. Some people already came out in this thread and claimed that they want more people to know about anime so they could be more open about the hobby and talk to more people about it. That, to me, is just as silly as wanting anime fans to be part of something exclusive.[/QUOTE]

But isn't the opposite true as well. Anime is such a niche medium that it usually airs late and night and is made to to a niche of unsophisticated losers. Look at all ecchi crap. That stuff was made to appeal to losers.

It's like porno films. They appeal to idiots. If anime was to appeal to a wider audience, it could the revenue steam to expand and mature.

Look at the game industry. The Xbox 360/PS3 basically only have games that appeal to meatheads. The Wii, DS and PS2 are where you see innovative and more abstract and even more mature subjects and gameplay.

I feel that the anime industry is the same boat. Sponsors and committees are mostly interested in appealing to undereducated losers with pandering and fanservice and are really risk-averse due to a small revenue stream.

If anime continues on this course, it will go the way of the American comic book. It will become culturally and socially irrelevant due to the constant pandering to fans who resist change and want the same mindless drivel recycled for them.





What the anime industry needs to do is find a better venue. Airing late at night in the hopes of someone buying the DVD isn't going to cut it and so isn't exclusively streaming online like Crunchyroll.

Primetime TV and advertising is where the medium needs to hit to survive.

Even Xbox Live, Netflicks, Blockbuster, and PlayStation Network isn't going to cut it. People buy consoles primarily to play games, not watch movies or anime.

Primetime and on local channels is where the anime industry should aim at.

Also, a pricing scheme in Japan that isn't absurd

Umineko Vol. 1 - 50 minutes or 2 Episodes - 5,079 Yen or 57.07 USDollars

"24" - 87 minutes or 2 Episodes - 2,952 Yen or 33.17 USDollars

And that's just the difference between the pricing in Japan, now.

I think Japan should move to the US model where they sell box sets at low prices. The volume of consumers would probably increase tremendously.

Also, animation needs to go almost fully digital save for storyboarding. It's stupid to have people draw 80,000 frames per episodes, then have to scan it in and then go from their. Get rid of the paper all-together and just go full digital with no in-betweens.

[animeboy12]

lubczyk, I won't lie. Your post gives me an aneurysm due to the share wrong........You know what? screw it. Your post is just stupid.

[0utf0xZer0]

Where to start...

First, I consider classifying late night anime as "all ecchi crap" to be about on par with describing prime time American TV as "all crime shows". Somehow, I don't really agree with the idea that something like Spice and Wolf is designed to appeal to "unsophisticated losers", and that show sold quite well on DVD in Japan.

Second, as an addendum to my last point, I think the list of crime shows someone posted earlier casts doubt on whether prime time TV is any more innovative than late night anime.

Third, I was under the impression the reason the Wii, DS, and PS2 got far more innovative titles in large part because the development cost on these platforms was lower. It's not just a matter of consoles sold.

Fourth, as I pointed out earlier, one of the higher profile efforts to promote an anime in the US in recent years involved slapping Samuel L Jackson's name on an action flick. Hardly inspires confidence in the ability of western marketers to capitalize on what anime has to offer. And without marketting you have a very low chance of making it big.

Fifth, if I'm a loser, it's because I spend huge amounts of time trying to write immaculate papers for my classes (and procrastinating on forums, I'll admit), not because I decide to watch a few harems shows as a guilty pleasure. One of those interferes with my ability to maintain a normal social life - and its the one that eats up time like there's no tomorrow, not the anime.

[Triple_R]

Second, as an addendum to my last point, I think the list of crime shows someone posted earlier casts doubt on whether prime time TV is any more innovative than late night anime.

It isn't. I completely agree with you here.

Part of the reason why I'd like to see anime go mainstream is that I was hoping that by it doing so... it could demonstrate to big time TV show producers that something other than crime and medical shows can sell. Seriously, police and doctors are more common in American shows than even maids and tsunderes could ever hope to be in anime... :heh:




Fourth, as I pointed out earlier, one of the higher profile efforts to promote an anime in the US in recent years involved slapping Samuel L Jackson's name on an action flick. Hardly inspires confidence in the ability of western marketers to capitalize on what anime has to offer. And without marketting you have a very low chance of making it big.

I... really don't see how this is bad marketing. Attaching a very popular domestic name to anime is a huge win. It's no different than Aya Hirano playing Haruhi in Japan. It's smart marketing.

I'll grant you that there should be a switch to the real unique elements of what anime has to offer... but this makes for a great bait.


And... doing well in College/University certainly doesn't make somebody a loser. :) Nor does liking anime.

[Revenger1589]

I think Japan should move to the US model where they sell box sets at low prices. The volume of consumers would probably increase tremendously.

The whole post was extremely retarded but I want to point out this sentence in particular. It has been discussed on this board many times, reducing the cost of anime DVDs wouldn't do anything to increase sells, anime is niche and the only people that buy it are Otaku but that has nothing to do with the price.

It doesn't matter if you give it away for free, the regular guy in Japan doesn't watch anime and isn't interested in owning DVDs.

[SeijiSensei]

It doesn't matter if you give it away for free, the regular guy in Japan doesn't watch anime and isn't interested in owning DVDs.

While I agree with the general thrust of your posting, I think this comment is a bit extreme. Take Noitamina as an example. Most of the shows in this block fall well outside the otaku mainstream, yet they post some of the best viewing ratings of any late-night anime and often have substantial DVD sales as well. Mononoke (http://www.animesuki.com/series.php/1067.html), for example, with its psychedelic art style, is far removed from most anime, yet it consistently scored ratings over a three and sold over 12,000 copies of each of its DVDs. Other Noitamina offerings like Hataraki Man (http://www.animesuki.com/series.php/883.html) and Moyashimon (http://www.animesuki.com/series.php/1116.html) have fared equally well. (Nodame Cantabile (http://www.animesuki.com/series.php/947.html) was also quite successful in Japan, but it's something of a special case as it followed the live-action adaptation of the popular manga series.)

These results tell me there is a broader audience for anime in Japan, one that's willing to watch, and more importantly buy, more broadly appealing shows when they have the opportunity. What's more puzzling is why the other networks haven't followed Fuji's example and tried to program shows for this broader audience.

Of course, here in the US, Noitamina's offerings have met a sadly different fate. Most are ignored by US licensors as the fate of shows like Nodame and Moyashimon demonstrate. As long as anime is R1 is primarily marketed to teen and young adult males, it will fail to find a broader audience. As I said above, without a concerted effort to reach girls and women, anime will always remain a niche offering in North America.

[cyth]

What's more puzzling is why the other networks haven't followed Fuji's example and tried to program shows for this broader audience.Because general members of society without prejudice to anime are willing to invest only so much time to these shows. I'm glad producers are aware of this.

[SeijiSensei]

Because general members of society without prejudice to anime are willing to invest only so much time to these shows. I'm glad producers are aware of this.

Why, exactly? Are you afraid that if producers tried to follow in Noitamina's footsteps the productions would be too watered-down and popularized? I don't think that's much of a threat. Even if we doubled Noitamina's output, the total would still only constitute 8-10 shows per year, hardly a dent in an annual total of well over 200.

[npcomplete]

Of course, here in the US, Noitamina's offerings have met a sadly different fate. Most are ignored by US licensors as the fate of shows like Nodame and Moyashimon demonstrate. As long as anime is R1 is primarily marketed to teen and young adult males, it will fail to find a broader audience. As I said above, without a concerted effort to reach girls and women, anime will always remain a niche offering in North America.

Actually I can see and increasing amount of the kind of shows covered or that could be covered in the Noitamina slot coming over. If Funi rejects, you still have MB, Nozomi, neo-ADV, Bandai, and Viz. Viz in particular I can see getting Nodame, seeing as how they got Honey and Clover, Nana, Vampire Knight franchise. I think both Viz and Nozomi/Rightstuff also target the shoujo market.

And I could be mistaken.. but wasn't Bandai looking into Moyashimon?

But even outside of Noitama, there are still many shows that don't make it over for whatever reason. And when you mentioned the trippy Mononoke, that made me think of Kaiba and the current Trapeze

[Revenger1589]

While I agree with the general thrust of your posting, I think this comment is a bit extreme. Take Noitamina as an example. Most of the shows in this block fall well outside the otaku mainstream, yet they post some of the best viewing ratings of any late-night anime and often have substantial DVD sales as well. Mononoke (http://www.animesuki.com/series.php/1067.html), for example, with its psychedelic art style, is far removed from most anime, yet it consistently scored ratings over a three and sold over 12,000 copies of each of its DVDs. Other Noitamina offerings like Hataraki Man (http://www.animesuki.com/series.php/883.html) and Moyashimon (http://www.animesuki.com/series.php/1116.html) have fared equally well. (Nodame Cantabile (http://www.animesuki.com/series.php/947.html) was also quite successful in Japan, but it's something of a special case as it followed the live-action adaptation of the popular manga series.)

These results tell me there is a broader audience for anime in Japan, one that's willing to watch, and more importantly buy, more broadly appealing shows when they have the opportunity. What's more puzzling is why the other networks haven't followed Fuji's example and tried to program shows for this broader audience.

Of course, here in the US, Noitamina's offerings have met a sadly different fate. Most are ignored by US licensors as the fate of shows like Nodame and Moyashimon demonstrate. As long as anime is R1 is primarily marketed to teen and young adult males, it will fail to find a broader audience. As I said above, without a concerted effort to reach girls and women, anime will always remain a niche offering in North America.


I tend to look at NoitaminA as the exception that proves the rule, have in mind that this slot became popular thanks to Honey & Clover, I have little doubt that if it weren't for it NoitaminA wouldn't have been as successful. Remember Noise? They tried to copy NoitaminA's formula and it was a complete disaster, Aoi Hana was an exceptional anime but it isn't H&C.

There's also the fact that this slot seems to be getting lower ratings lately, Eden hit some low numbers and it got worse with TM 8.0 and Trapeze. Hopefully this will get better with Nodame airing next season.

Maybe I was a little too extreme saying that there isn't a market outside of Otaku, but creating another NoitaminA seems a little to hard.

[lubczyk]

The whole post was extremely retarded but I want to point out this sentence in particular. It has been discussed on this board many times, reducing the cost of anime DVDs wouldn't do anything to increase sells, anime is niche and the only people that buy it are Otaku but that has nothing to do with the price.

It doesn't matter if you give it away for free, the regular guy in Japan doesn't watch anime and isn't interested in owning DVDs.

My above point would be made in conjunction to popularizing the medium with topics, issues and formats that appeal to a wider audience. Look at the Nintendo Wii and what it has done to popularize videogames. Anime industry should tackle the same strategy.

Marketing, format as well as content, is key. The current content in anime doesn't appeal to regular folks since it's, well, mostly crap. I mean, who really wants to watch a glorified and simplified toy commercial (ie Gundam), harem for losers (Queen's Blade) and some anime with questionable writing (Umineko)?

On top of that, who wants to stay up late to watch it, especially if it's on some premium channel? Not many people.

The medium needs to mature, like videogames are starting to do and TV and movies, music along with books have done.

I think you could draw a parallel between anime in Japan and comic books in the United States and Europe.

I'm not implying that watching anime makes you a loser, but that's how its seen by the public in Japan and the US and Europe. I do business in Japan all the time and anyone in upper management will not even bother if you read manga, but they'll look at you funny if you admit you watch anime. I don't admit to it, personally.

Anime in Japan is still viewed as something for outcasts. It's just not the "adult" thing to do like watching soap operas and dramas and such.

[lubczyk]

Point being, manga is an accepted form of entertainment for anybody in Japan due to it being cheap, easy to access, mobile and covering a wide range of topics.

Anime is not. It is seen as the medium of a generally undesirable subculture.

[Revenger1589]

My above point would be made in conjunction to popularizing the medium with topics, issues and formats that appeal to a wider audience. Look at the Nintendo Wii and what it has done to popularize videogames. Anime industry should tackle the same strategy.

Marketing, format as well as content, is key. The current content in anime doesn't appeal to regular folks since it's, well, mostly crap. I mean, who really wants to watch a glorified and simplified toy commercial (ie Gundam), harem for losers (Queen's Blade) and some anime with questionable writing (Umineko)?

The Wii is a terrible example, its popularity has run out and the PS3, which apparently is for nerds, is outselling it. The reason is very simple, Nintendo focused on casuals and as a result ended up with lack of quality games, because of this they lost the hardcore market which is the most consistent. The regular guy found the Wii interesting at first but has forgotten about it now.

Anime not being popular with the regular folk has nothing to do with quality, people generally like crap anyway. The fact that you're saying anime nowadays is crap using three specific examples, tells me that you have no idea what you're talking about, I can name you at least five excellent anime that are airing right now and wouldn't be popular with the regular guy.

[GuidoHunter_Toki]

It has been discussed on this board many times, reducing the cost of anime DVDs wouldn't do anything to increase sells

Maybe it wouldn't broaden the amount of people actually buying the DVDs, but it could increase the amount of DVDs being bought. I know I'd buy a heck of a lot more if they were cheaper. Perhaps even some people who are first venturing into anime, might be more tempted to buy as well if DVDs were cheaper.

With all that said I think overall, even with dropping the price, sells wouldn't have any big significant increase.

[lubczyk]

The Wii is a terrible example, its popularity has run out and the PS3, which apparently is for nerds, is outselling it. The reason is very simple, Nintendo focused on casuals and as a result ended up with lack of quality games, because of this they lost the hardcore market which is the most consistent. The regular guy found the Wii interesting at first but has forgotten about it now.

Anime not being popular with the regular folk has nothing to do with quality, people generally like crap anyway. The fact that you're saying anime nowadays is crap using three specific examples, tells me that you have no idea what you're talking about, I can name you at least five excellent anime that are airing right now and wouldn't be popular with the regular guy.

Oh please:

http://www.vgchartz.com/

How many times have you seen the PS3 on Oprah, or Good Morning America or in fitness centers and schools?

Someone needs to do for anime what Pixar did for Toy Story for CG animation. Before Toy Story, anything animated in the U.S. and Europe was regarded as "for kids." Shows like Toy Story and Shrek have popularized the medium among kids and adults alike. The anime industry should do the same and adjust.

Oh, here are the American sales figues for videogames for the month of October.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=18464559&postcount=1

Yeah, the PS3 is sure outselling the Wii. The PS3 is dead last in software and hardware.

I don't like most of the games on the Wii. I have a PS3 and Wii, but I knew what I was getting into when I bought it. It's mostly the 3rd parties fault that they haven't released compelling software on the Wii.

[GuidoHunter_Toki]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=18464559&postcount=1

Yeah, the PS3 is sure outselling the Wii. The PS3 is dead last in software and hardware.


The Wii may have the best overall sales, but its good sales are not continuing. PS3 has been outselling the Wii for the good portion of this year (perhaps even longer since its been a while since I've checked the sales figures that far back). The Wii hit its high point and now the love affair (in a sense) is over.

[Revenger1589]

It's quite possible that lowering the prices increases the amount of DVDs sold to the same Otaku market, but they would be obviously earning less per DVD so you have to see if it gets compensated. I don't have the numbers but I assume lowering the prices isn't worth it, otherwise they would have already done it.

[Revenger1589]

Oh please:

http://www.vgchartz.com/

How many times have you seen the PS3 on Oprah, or Good Morning America or in fitness centers and schools?

Someone needs to do for anime what Pixar did for Toy Story for CG animation. Before Toy Story, anything animated in the U.S. and Europe was regarded as "for kids." Shows like Toy Story and Shrek have popularized the medium among kids and adults alike. The anime industry should do the same and adjust.

Oh, here are the American sales figues for videogames for the month of October.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=18464559&postcount=1

Yeah, the PS3 is sure outselling the Wii. The PS3 is dead last in software and hardware.

I don't like most of the games on the Wii. I have a PS3 and Wii, but I knew what I was getting into when I bought it. It's mostly the 3rd parties fault that they haven't released compelling software on the Wii.


I'm talking about Japan, where Nintendo openly admitted they are falling behind because of the lack of quality games.

Sorry for the double post.

[lubczyk]

I'm talking about Japan, where Nintendo openly admitted they are falling behind because of the lack of quality games.

Sorry for the double post.

That's still just PR talk. They're still outselling the PS3/360 combined. They're just not meeting their forecasts. That's where they're falling behind.

Not selling as much as they wanted is still far outselling the PS3/360/PSP.

[lubczyk]

The Wii may have the best overall sales, but its good sales are not continuing. PS3 has been outselling the Wii for the good portion of this year (perhaps even longer since its been a while since I've checked the sales figures that far back). The Wii hit its high point and now the love affair (in a sense) is over.

I think the PS3 outsold the Wii in the US for one month, maybe two, this year. That's not exactly a comeback. I don't think the PS3 has ever outsold the Wii in any other region, ever, over the last three years.

[Raiga]

Someone needs to do for anime what Pixar did for Toy Story for CG animation. Before Toy Story, anything animated in the U.S. and Europe was regarded as "for kids." Shows like Toy Story and Shrek have popularized the medium among kids and adults alike. The anime industry should do the same and adjust.

Wait...

Huh?

[Revenger1589]

As GuidoHunter_Toki said, the PS3 has been outselling the Wii for months and it looks like it's staying that way, people just don't care about Nintendo's console anymore because to the regular guy it was just a fad. Sony and Microsoft targeted the mainstream without forgetting about the hardcore player, that's why they're more consistent and their success is likely to be sustained for far longer.

The reason anime isn't mainstream is because it's anime, not because of its content.

[Sheba]

Someone needs to do for anime what Pixar did for Toy Story for CG animation. Before Toy Story, anything animated in the U.S. and Europe was regarded as "for kids." Shows like Toy Story and Shrek have popularized the medium among kids and adults alike. The anime industry should do the same and adjust.



You are wrong about Europe. In the specific case of France, the broadcasters had the brilliant idea to air in kid timeslot two marvelous series called Onii-sama e and Hokuto no Ken. Not to mention Akira in cinema theaters.

Parent associations learnt the hard way that animation is not always for kids. And they lobbied the hell out of the TV stations to get them out of the TV.

The rest is history for anime french fandom.

[lubczyk]

You are wrong about Europe. In the specific case of France, the broadcasters had the brilliant idea to air in kid timeslot two marvelous series called Onii-sama e and Hokuto no Ken. Not to mention Akira in cinema theaters.

Parent associations learnt the hard way that animation is not always for kids. And they lobbied the hell out of the TV stations to get them out of the TV.

The rest is history for anime french fandom.

So is anime accepted in France among the mainstream or not?

[Triple_R]

The reason anime isn't mainstream is because it's anime, not because of its content.


I have to disagree with this.

To the uninitiated, anime is just cartoons. Some cartoons, and certainly some animated movies, can be and in fact are very popular.

To the initiated, anime is equated with its distinctive content... so if the content changes somewhat, then the perception of anime changes with it (eventually, at least; there may be a bit of a lag but it won't be a lag that lasts forevere).


Another factor is what we as fans choose to promote. If all we talk about and promote is ecchi, fanservice, and moe then eventually people who aren't already anime fans (and hence who don't know better) will think that this is all there is to anime.

You'll have an anime episode with 20 minutes of good, sound character development, of good plot movement... and one boobshot or pantyshot... and what do the fans focus all their attention on? And hence what do the various internet lurkers take away from that? What do they come to think that this anime is all about?


Look, this is a real stigma to a lot of potential anime fans; potential anime fans that could quite possibly be anime fans if the perception of anime = hentai wasn't the one that a lot of folks have. There are people that have no problem whatsoever in watching good, serious stories presented in an animated medium... but they simply have no interest in animated porn.

[Revenger1589]

Triple R, what you say is true but anime already has a very bad image in Japan, so to people something like Darker than Black is the same as Kampfer. For an anime to become acceptable it has to do so despite being an anime.

Edit: I'd like to add that "fanservice" live action shows with boobs on every shot are mainstream and really popular around here, so I don't see why ecchi anime can't be popular for it's content. People love perverted stuff.

[animeboy12]

well if anything then, wouldn't the perception of anime be link to western animation? Lets face it, even at the peak of anime interntional popularity, western animation still had a much, muuch, much bigger mind share in what people thought was animation.

I dunno, personally I think that the only way anime is going to get the respect and attention it deserved is if western animation starts going more diverse and showing people that, animation in general not just for kid



Another factor is what we as fans choose to promote. If all we talk about and promote is ecchi, fanservice, and moe then eventually people who aren't already anime fans (and hence who don't know better) will think that this is all there is to anime.

You'll have an anime episode with 20 minutes of good, sound character development, of good plot movement... and one boobshot or pantyshot... and what do the fans focus all their attention on? And hence what do the various internet lurkers take away from that? What do they come to think that this anime is all about?


That's probably plays a role but your average anime fans are not going be promoting echhi, least not in the west. They more or less are going to be promoting the big stuff, Naruto, bleach, hellsing, full metal panic, inuyasha,full metal alchemist, or bebop and things in those vein.

The people that that think anime is just sex and porn probably come from the the night searching up porn sites, then finding some random ad about anime porn, and basing all of anime on that ad.

[Triple_R]

Triple R, what you say is true but anime already has a very bad image in Japan, so to people something like Darker than Black is the same as Kampfer. For an anime to become acceptable it has to do so despite being an anime.

Edit: I'd like to add that "fanservice" live action shows with boobs on every shot are mainstream and really popular around here, so I don't see why ecchi anime can't be popular for it's content. People love perverted stuff.

People don't love perverted stuff as much as you think that they do. Yes, there's a definite audience for that, but there's also a substantial audience that you alienate completely with that perverted stuff; it's a double-edge sword if ever there was one.

If you look at the best-selling movies of all-time, the vast majority of them are not known for their "perverted stuff". The Titanic, the Lord of the Rings trilogy, the Spiderman movies, The Dark Knight, the original Star Wars trilogy, etc..., etc... these attracted a mainstream audience in part because they are accessible to pretty much everybody: not just to people who are really into "perverted stuff".


In the video game industry, the Mario games and Call of Duty games (most recently Modern Warfare 2) are currently the big sellers, IIRC. Are they selling because of "perverted stuff"?


Secondly... just because people may like something in a live-action format doesn't mean that it's going to sell in an animated format, or vice versa. Why do you think the X-Men movies never kept the spandex costumes but instead went with leather outfits?


I'm really not convinced that fanservice is the big seller that some anime fans argue that it is. I know a fair number of people who like sexual scenes in live-action but honestly find them weird in animated format, and prefer their animated shows with out it.


Edit: There's a definite niche market for anime that's very ecchi and fanservice... but that's all it is: a niche market. I would say that the sales figures for Queen's Blade represent the most you're going to get out of this demographic alone.

For an anime to go beyond Queen's Blade in its popularity, it needs to have less ecchi/fanservice elements than what Queen's Blade has. To put it in economic terms, ecchi and fanservice has marginal utility... and there reaches a point where it's marginal utility becomes zero or negative.

So... you'll always have your Queen's Blades for the people who want that, but for people who aren't interested in that...

[Revenger1589]

Of course movies and games that are all ages are going to sell more, they have a much bigger audience, but perverted stuff have its own audience which might not be as big but there's no reason not to exploit it. The problem is that people want to put all shows on the same bag, the fact that some anime are ecchi doesn't mean all are.

By the way, the most popular show in my country is basically about big breasted woman pole dancing.

[GuidoHunter_Toki]

I'm really not convinced that fanservice is the big seller that some anime fans argue that it is. I know a fair number of people who like sexual scenes in live-action but honestly find them weird in animated format, and prefer their animated shows with out it.


Well of course fanservice is not a universal big seller, but there is no denying the fact that some shows/manga heavy on fanservice make it big in sales. This is not just in Japan either. Why do reality shows in america that are heavy with sexual material keep getting made? Because they are popular. Sure it is probably not just for the sexual material, but also for the comedic aspect of watching people make fools of themselves, but it plays its part in the show's popularity.

[Nosauz]

Of course movies and games that are all ages are going to sell more, they have a much bigger audience, but perverted stuff have its own audience which might not be as big but there's no reason not to exploit it. The problem is that people want to put all shows on the same bag, the fact that some anime are ecchi doesn't mean all are.

By the way, the most popular show in my country is basically about big breasted woman pole dancing.

Well you can't help and look at high school musical and twilight, good looking people doing medoicre work still can make insane amounts of money.
even though my example is a film phenomena it does imply that the general public will take vanity over substance.

[GuidoHunter_Toki]

Well you can't help and look at high school musical and twilight, good looking people doing medoicre work still can make insane amounts of money.

Indeed, also to chuck another one into that mix. Transformers 2; I wonder how many people went to that movie just to see Megan Fox.

[Revenger1589]

Well you can't help and look at high school musical and twilight, good looking people doing medoicre work still can make insane amounts of money.
even though my example is a film phenomena it does imply that the general public will take vanity over substance.

True, those movies are basically fanservice and nothing else.

[Triple_R]

Look, guys... we're talking about different things here.

Watching something because it has good looking characters in it is a bit different than watching something for outright porn.

Everybody likes to see good looking characters, but not everybody is interested in porn.


There's a certain sweet spot of sexuality in anime where you draw in people looking for that with out turning off people not interested in that.

I would argue that the KyoAni titles does a pretty good job of hitting that point, with its use of sensuality and moe but rarely outright fanservice.


Likewise, High School Musical and Twilight have very attractive and sensuous characters... but nobody would equate these movies with porn.


The distinction between anime and hentai probably needs to become a bit more clear-cut.

[Revenger1589]

A couple of days ago I watched the actor from Twilight on TV talking about the sequel and it was all about a scene were he appears topless in front of a crowd, I think the reason people go to see these movies is pretty clear.

[Sheba]

So is anime accepted in France among the mainstream or not?
The approach is "let it be".

From a more pragmatic point of view, they sees anime as source of $$$, so no reason to alienate a whole fringe of the population who grew up with anime.

[Nosauz]

well when you talk about echhi, and tween flicks there about on the same level of "sexuality" and in most cases tweeen flicks are probably even more "sexual" then echhi anime's echhi is porbably more on par with soaps then tween flicks.

[GuidoHunter_Toki]

Look, guys... we're talking about different things here.

Watching something because it has good looking characters in it is a bit different than watching something for outright porn.

Everybody likes to see good looking characters, but not everybody is interested in porn.

Well fanservice is such an edgy/undefined spectrum that it is pretty damn close to being porn at times. Some fanservice can be very out there, while some can be very lighthearted. I haven't been talking as if sex is what is completely driving these series (otherwise actual porn would be selling really really well, would it not?), but just including something of sexual nature in a series or making that your main selling point can draw a ton of people in.

Lets take Ken Akamatsu for example. Stuff like Negima and A.I. Love You, both have gratuitous amounts of girls clothes flying/being torn off, not to mention a lot of feeling up of women (really pretty looking women). Now I buy Negima for the interesting story and characters and not so much for the fanservice (it does annoy me at times, but I do like it at certain moments). Now I know people who have bought it for the reasons I stated, but I've also known others who bought it purley for the fanservice.

Now I don't believe fanservice alone can sell big (but it can sell well at times), you need something more surrounding it. However fanservice can be a huge driving force behind what can and can't sell to a certain crowd. Like how Negima can lure people from many crowds (fanservice, action, comedy, etc.) because it has all that stuff included.

[Triple_R]

I'm going to reflect some on the thought-provoking arguments that other posters have made on this thread in the last ten or so posts. For now, though, I'll be exiting the discussion.

I want to thank people for not neg repping me for the posts that I wrote, which is honestly what I kind of expected to happen.

Thanks for the good discussion.

[npcomplete]

It's quite possible that lowering the prices increases the amount of DVDs sold to the same Otaku market, but they would be obviously earning less per DVD so you have to see if it gets compensated. I don't have the numbers but I assume lowering the prices isn't worth it, otherwise they would have already done it.
Actually all but the top 20 titles (so ~180 or so) would stand to do better--perhaps much better--if the R2J industry did not have insane pricing, especially if companies for those titles can't compensate with merchandise licensing.

People don't love perverted stuff as much as you think that they do. Yes, there's a definite audience for that, but there's also a substantial audience that you alienate completely with that perverted stuff; it's a double-edge sword if ever there was one.


It completely depends on the location. Some people are not averse to sex. Revenger's in Argentina so I have no problem believing that, likewise if it were Brazil, or countries in the EU, like Denmark (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=2602555#post2602555).

Now as far as alienating people all you have to do is promote anime as a very diverse area, as it already is. You don't see people reject live-action as a whole simply because there was a movie that offended them, so if people want anime to become more mainstream then that's what they have to work on.

As some of us have mentioned before, the content is already there. There's always something for everyone in the ~200 anime tv shows, ovas and movies produced each year. The problem is people like to get hung up on what they hate, what offends them.

I think the PS3 outsold the Wii in the US for one month, maybe two, this year. That's not exactly a comeback. I don't think the PS3 has ever outsold the Wii in any other region, ever, over the last three years.
Nintendo’s Wii Sales Fall in U.S. for Eighth Straight Month (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601204&sid=aaK5EVaSmERU)
Gamers are no longer hot for Wii
(http://www.nydailynews.com/money/2009/10/30/2009-10-30_gamers_are_no_longer_hot_for_wii.html)
Sales dropped 43% and profits down 52%. I can't see them overtaking PS3 anytime soon unless they have a big shift in strategy. Kind of ironic as a result of going mainstream. But it's not surprising when you see that they did it in a mutually exclusive kind of way where dedicated gamers were abandoned for casual gamers instead.

[Triple_R]

It completely depends on the location. Some people are not averse to sex.

You see... that line right there is an example of the problem.

It's a not-so-subtle snark against people who aren't interested in animated porn.

It's a perhaps ironically judgmental attitude towards people who aren't interested in ecchi or fanservice.

It's not about "aversion to sex" in general. It's about different people having different standards for how much sex they want in their entertainment... animated entertainment in particular as it pertains to anime.


Sometimes with some anime fans I detect an almost snobbish attitude towards people who like animation as an entertainment medium but who simply aren't interested in ecchi and fanservice. Talking down to those people does anime no good.




Now as far as alienating people all you have to do is promote anime as a very diverse area, as it already is. You don't see people reject live-action as a whole simply because there was a movie that offended them, so if people want anime to become more mainstream then that's what they have to work on.

Exactly my point. The idea that anime = hentai is a notion that we as anime fans should work to dispel.




As some of us have mentioned before, the content is already there. There's always something for everyone in the ~200 anime tv shows, ovas and movies produced each year.

I think that this is much more debatable than you make it out to be. If the diverse content is there, it certainly isn't being marketed well.

Edit: Umm... I don't really have a dog in the Wii/PS3 debate, but even the figures in your links are showing that even with lowering sales, the Wii is still outselling the PS3, and by a rather significant margin (506,900 to 320,600). So... where are you coming from on the Wii/PS3 debate?

[lubczyk]

Actually all but the top 20 titles (so ~180 or so) would stand to do better--perhaps much better--if the R2J industry did not have insane pricing, especially if companies for those titles can't compensate with merchandise licensing.



It completely depends on the location. Some people are not averse to sex. Revenger's in Argentina so I have no problem believing that, likewise if it were Brazil, or countries in the EU, like Denmark (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=2602555#post2602555).

Now as far as alienating people all you have to do is promote anime as a very diverse area, as it already is. You don't see people reject live-action as a whole simply because there was a movie that offended them, so if people want anime to become more mainstream then that's what they have to work on.

As some of us have mentioned before, the content is already there. There's always something for everyone in the ~200 anime tv shows, ovas and movies produced each year. The problem is people like to get hung up on what they hate, what offends them.


Nintendo’s Wii Sales Fall in U.S. for Eighth Straight Month (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601204&sid=aaK5EVaSmERU)
Gamers are no longer hot for Wii
(http://www.nydailynews.com/money/2009/10/30/2009-10-30_gamers_are_no_longer_hot_for_wii.html)
Sales dropped 43% and profits down 52%. I can't see them overtaking PS3 anytime soon unless they have a big shift in strategy. Kind of ironic as a result of going mainstream. But it's not surprising when you see that they did it in a mutually exclusive kind of way where dedicated gamers were abandoned for casual gamers instead.

Just because Wii sales fell doesn't mean they're bad.

Wii will outsells the 360 and PS3 in software and hardware. That'a an indisputable fact.

The PS3 outsold the Wii in the U.S. for one month only. Did you not see the link to the October NPD Group numbers? The Wii outsold the PS3/360. One month of the PS3 outselling the Wii is not a trend.

[animeboy12]

Just because Wii sales fell doesn't mean they're bad.

Wii will outsells the 360 and PS3 in software and hardware. That'a an indisputable fact.

And it'd also an indisputable that all of the hardware sales and software sales go directly in nintendo pockets doing absolutely nothing for the gaming industry as a whole

You see... that line right there is an example of the problem.

It's a not-so-subtle snark against people who aren't interested in animated porn.

It's a perhaps ironically judgmental attitude towards people who aren't interested in ecchi or fanservice.
:eyebrow: where the snark?

[Revenger1589]

I think that this is much more debatable than you make it out to be. If the diverse content is there, it certainly isn't being marketed well.

I can assure you that diversity exist, but people are interested always in the same kind of shows. I wouldn't even say it's a marketing problem, as it is common for certain anime to become successful overnight without any hype. The problem is that these anime always target the lowest common denominator.

Every year there are some thought provoking and engaging shows but they are mostly overlooked to the point they aren't even subbed. I would mention Mouryou no Hako as an extremely intelligent and entertaining anime from last year, it has yet to be completely subbed and most don't even know it exist.

Every season fans read the charts and pick what anime they are going to watch, and this is why I say it isn't a marketing problem. The charts list every show and its description and if it doesn't have certain elements people won't even give it a chance.

What I'm saying is that there are A LOT of shows that get overlooked because they are different, that's where the diversity is.

[Slice of Life]

I think that this is much more debatable than you make it out to be. If the diverse content is there, it certainly isn't being marketed well.

How would good marketing look in your eyes? And marketing by whom, for whom? Apart from the fact that the Japanese couldn't care less to cater foreign fansub watchers with a marketing campaigns, even if they would, every studio wants to sell their anime and every fraction of the fanbase wants to be catered. As I see it, better marketing can only result in a louder cacophony. So in the end it's still up to you to look into the catalog by yourself.

Other said it already, but if you haven't made up your mind about relatively popular stuff like Canaan up to now (and be it only to already have decide against it because of it's length) your interests are either too broad (but they seem to be well defined) or you're too comfortable with the status quo to really try and gather information.

[GuidoHunter_Toki]

The PS3 outsold the Wii in the U.S. for one month only. Did you not see the link to the October NPD Group numbers? The Wii outsold the PS3/360. One month of the PS3 outselling the Wii is not a trend.

Just in the U.S., well then it is certainly not following the same trend everywhere else. Ps3 is coming in tight or surpassing in most sales figures this year around the globe. Also you must take into account how many of the Wii's sales are attributed to health related purchases. Many people (even hospitals) are buying the Wii just for Wii Fit, Wii Sports, and Wii Resort (which continue to be the highest selling games on the Wii) and the fact that it gets you active. Not to mention it is the cheapest console out there, thus more "gift" friendly around the holidays (which probably explains the sudden boost in Wii sales for the month of November).


I think that this is much more debatable than you make it out to be. If the diverse content is there, it certainly isn't being marketed well.

Well I've seen plenty of series gain huge popularity seemingly over night with a lack of any kind of big time marketing attempt. For some series that pertain to a specific crowd of people all they need to do as far as marketing is say the show is going to air on their website and have it listed on a few other websites that show whats airing the upcoming season. There doesn't need to be a TV spot or anything else major and that series could still suddenly blast out of the gates as a hit.

It all comes down to what you consider good marketing and also if the company is able (financially) to market it the way they would like.

[durack]

Where to start...
Second, as an addendum to my last point, I think the list of crime shows someone posted earlier casts doubt on whether prime time TV is any more innovative than late night anime.


The list of crime shows was posted in response to my post, so I figure I will jump in one more time. :)

Crime shows do not have to be "innovative" in the same sense as plot-driven shows. We do not look for plot when watching a football game on TV.

[durack]

It isn't. I completely agree with you here.
Part of the reason why I'd like to see anime go mainstream is that I was hoping that by it doing so... it could demonstrate to big time TV show producers that something other than crime and medical shows can sell.

Most of the time when they try "something other", it fails.

"Kings" is a good recent example.

[Click This]

I dislike the sterotype that people have given on anime, basing it on anime found on Western children's channels. If you say "I like anime.", people would immediately make the connection to Naruto or another anime soiled by censorship and translations. IMO, those shows, along with other mainstream amerime(sp?) soil the reputations of the shows that deserve the attention.

[durack]

I dislike the sterotype that people have given on anime, basing it on anime found on Western children's channels. If you say "I like anime.", people would immediately make the connection to Naruto or another anime soiled by censorship and translations. IMO, those shows, along with other mainstream amerime(sp?) soil the reputations of the shows that deserve the attention.

Others have said before many times over and over.

Hang out with some 20-30 year old Japanese people and say "I like anime".

Actually, anime-loving gaijin IMHO is an even worse stigma than homegrown otaku, at least in large urban areas.

[lubczyk]

Would a iTunes model work?

I don't know personally, I don't use iTunes and I don't know how profitable or not it is proving to be.

[durack]

Would a iTunes model work?

I don't know personally, I don't use iTunes and I don't know how profitable or not it is proving to be.

I think the main issue now is content, not distribution. However, if someone were to offer downloadable anime for cheap without DRM, it may be worth trying. Crunchyroll is OK, but streaming is a PITA. The issue here is subs/dubs - so far all anime I've seen on iTunes is dub-only, thus you alienate a significant portion of customers and you need the hardcore fan to pad your bottom line.

[durack]

BTW, not to say that stigma that anime has in Japan is fair or anything like that. There's quite a bit of hypocrisy here. Reading manga is perfectly normal, but watching anime based on that same manga - OMG LOSER GEEK!!!!

[lubczyk]

I think the main issue now is content, not distribution. However, if someone were to offer downloadable anime for cheap without DRM, it may be worth trying. Crunchyroll is OK, but streaming is a PITA. The issue here is subs/dubs - so far all anime I've seen on iTunes is dub-only, thus you alienate a significant portion of customers and you need the hardcore fan to pad your bottom line.

How would advertising work? How would you advertise anime on TV or the newspaper to a mainstream audience?

[lubczyk]

Here's an article on the issue that confirms my insights:

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20090304f1.html

[npcomplete]

Others have said before many times over and over.

Hang out with some 20-30 year old Japanese people and say "I like anime".

Actually, anime-loving gaijin IMHO is an even worse stigma than homegrown otaku, at least in large urban areas.

It depends on the 20-30 years old you hang out with. You could say exactly the same thing in the US or anywhere if you decide to geek out in a casual or normal crowd of people with your Star Wars or Star Trek, or Marvel comics, or whatever hobby. I mean seriously, you'd get the same :eyebrow: reaction even just mentioning those interests in any non-geeky environment.

edit:
somewhat related in terms of perhaps growing awareness: http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=2780856#post2780856
nothing big, but small news like this seems to occur more often now that a few years ago.

Even in the US there are now a lot of " The Manga Guide to XYZ" subject line of books by No Starch Press that you can see in bookstores and that I see promoted in places like Fry's Electronics. Example The Manga Guide to Databases (http://www.amazon.com/Manga-Guide-Databases-Mana-Takahashi/dp/1593271905)



You see... that line right there is an example of the problem.

It's a not-so-subtle snark against people who aren't interested in animated porn.

It's a perhaps ironically judgmental attitude towards people who aren't interested in ecchi or fanservice.

It's not about "aversion to sex" in general. It's about different people having different standards for how much sex they want in their entertainment... animated entertainment in particular as it pertains to anime.


Sometimes with some anime fans I detect an almost snobbish attitude towards people who like animation as an entertainment medium but who simply aren't interested in ecchi and fanservice. Talking down to those people does anime no good.

Hey, weren't you gonna take a break? :heh: anyways, err.. no snark or anything implied. I simply mean that in less conservative areas people are not offended by such material, even if they are not fans of or don't watch the shows. My point is that if people who are offended don't watch them in the first place why should they care? (rhetorical question) The problem people in some areas would like ALL entertainment to be molded into a certain shape. Kanokon or Queen's Blade offends you? Fine don't watch it. Watch Darker Than Black, Canaan, Cross Game, whatever instead. But like you mentioned some people then form a negative association of all anime. Worse yet, it goes further than stigma against certain titles or genre, it extends into society and people as well.

So the only real way to gain greater acceptance of anime in general is to change people's minds, not the content (really, you just have to look at them yourself; seriously, there's A LOT people don't look at)



Edit: Umm... I don't really have a dog in the Wii/PS3 debate, but even the figures in your links are showing that even with lowering sales, the Wii is still outselling the PS3, and by a rather significant margin (506,900 to 320,600). So... where are you coming from on the Wii/PS3 debate?
It's not anymore if you look at the reports. I'm just interjecting on the debate but it was brought up as an analogy to mainstream vs niche anime. See my response below. The problem is not so much of going mainstream as it is doing it in a mutually exclusive way -- you make your entire product line for the casual gamer, abandoning the dedicated gamers; or analogously in anime: you make the entire industry Disney-like or at best, Ghibli-like.

Just because Wii sales fell doesn't mean they're bad.

Wii will outsells the 360 and PS3 in software and hardware. That'a an indisputable fact.

The PS3 outsold the Wii in the U.S. for one month only. Did you not see the link to the October NPD Group numbers? The Wii outsold the PS3/360. One month of the PS3 outselling the Wii is not a trend.
It is a downward trend. The news only speaks of hardware sales but this is more evident when you look at the games. Wii games are currently stagnating, both in content and sales:

"We weren't able to deliver the next thing," Iwata said.

Why would more people by Wii's in the coming months without the games they would want to play? They did a good job becoming more mainstream and tapping into the casual gamer market, but they can't continue to rely on them to sustain their product.

while PS3 games ecosystem is doing well in sustainable fashion, with popular titles across the board in every category, sports, shooters, fighters, platform action, rpg, etc. In addition more and more people are using their PS3 as blu ray players.

[0utf0xZer0]

I think the big problem with this thread is that with the exception of SeijiSensei's posts concerning the expansion of blocks like Noitamina (which I don't oppose), nobody is really presenting a vision for what a concentrated effort to make anime mainstream would look like. It's basically the trotting out of the tired old "otaku shows rock/suck" debate (with a helping of the even more tired "otaku are losers" rhetoric on the side).

My objection to the idea of mainstreamizing anime is based on the fact I'm not particularly big on mainstream American entertainment and don't want to see a lot of back-importation, along with the fact that I haven't considered some of the most obviously western audience targetted anime out there to be all that good.

If someone can present me a vision for how anime can become more mainstream while avoiding these pitfalls, I'm all ears. (Well, okay, I'm not going to be on here much the next little bit due to assignments, but still...)

Here's an article on the issue that confirms my insights:

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20090304f1.html

I don't really remember the 2006-2007 period being lacking in western oriented shows, so the fact that the decline in sales that started in that period has been largely in export markets actually strikes me as a case of having too much faith in the western market. And of course, the tail end of a bubble economy always sucks.


The list of crime shows was posted in response to my post, so I figure I will jump in one more time.

Crime shows do not have to be "innovative" in the same sense as plot-driven shows. We do not look for plot when watching a football game on TV.

I was just pointing out that if you concentrate on the derivative stuff in any particular entertainment market, it's going to make the market as a whole look bad, and that going prime time might not be that good a solution to derivative works

[Revenger1589]

So the only real way to gain greater acceptance of anime in general is to change people's minds, not the content (really, you just have to look at them yourself; seriously, there's A LOT people don't look at)

I agree with you ncomplete, for anime to be accepted it would need to change the way people perceive it but not the content itself. This season I'm watching six shows that could be enjoyed by anyone, Aoi Bungaku, DTB, Arashi, Sasameki Koto, Bantorra and Trapeze. There are probably more but six is a pretty good number.

I'm not saying everyone has to like the shows I mentioned, I just mean that these shows have content which any person may like, not just otaku. It's the same very season, the anime exist, you just have to look for it.

The problem with anime in Japan is the way people see it, for it to become popular it needs to do so despite being an anime. Other than certain exceptions, anime needs some external influence to be accepted by the regular guy, it can't do so on its content alone. Look at H&C, it was based on an extremely popular manga and used a lot of popular songs, the same with Nodame but this one also had a very popular drama, if you look at the ratings Aoi Bungaku is doing better than most late night anime but that's likely because it's based on the most popular novels of Japan.

In my opinion, NoitaminA became popular thanks to H&C and Nodame, which at the same time became popular thanks to the elements I mentioned before and made the slot a success, taking other shows under its wings, so to speak.

[cyth]

Sometimes with some anime fans I detect an almost snobbish attitude towards people who like animation as an entertainment medium but who simply aren't interested in ecchi and fanservice. Talking down to those people does anime no good.This just shows that the hardcore fandom likes to take everyone who enjoys anime as their own. Anime has different types of fandom involved, it's not just about what genres people enjoy or what level of casualness (or lack thereof) they employ. It has more to do with how each individual approaches the medium. A person coming across a Ghost in the Shell: SAC fansub on the internet approaches anime differently from a person sitting down in front of the TV and going "oh what is this show called? Seirei no Moribito... hum" or a person attending an arts festival and getting to see Evangelion 1.01: You Are (Not) Alone. While certain people become more involved with anime and eventually migrate to a different "fandom," certain others never will because of the way they approach anime.

[Triple_R]

This just shows that the hardcore fandom likes to take everyone who enjoys anime as their own. Anime has different types of fandom involved, it's not just about what genres people enjoy or what level of casualness (or lack thereof) they employ. It has more to do with how each individual approaches the medium. A person coming across a Ghost in the Shell: SAC fansub on the internet approaches anime differently from a person sitting down in front of the TV and going "oh what is this show called? Seirei no Moribito... hum" or a person attending an arts festival and getting to see Evangelion 1.01: You Are (Not) Alone. While certain people become more involved with anime and eventually migrate to a different "fandom," certain others never will because of the way they approach anime.

That's fair, and that's probably a lot of it yeah.

I might have been a bit crabby when I replied to npcomplete too, to be honest. :heh:


One thing I've learned is that the anime fandom is a very internally diverse fandom. Perhaps it's best to look at that as a strength.

[Slice of Life]

Here's an article on the issue that confirms my insights:

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20090304f1.html

They remain a little vague but what i get sounds like: to expand the market there should be less late-night anime (i.e pratically everything most people here watch), more Sazae-san. Morale: Be careful what you wish for.

I simply mean that in less conservative areas people are not offended by such material, even if they are not fans of or don't watch the shows.

I don't know if you understand his position. I don't even know if I understand his position. But: You don't have to be "offended" by the quantity, quality, or form of fanservice offered to be annoyed by it. Nor do you have to live in more "conservative areas". Is that really so hard to understand? You make it sound like everybody wants to see as much panty shots as possible, and if not he must be brainwashed by the church or something. It'd rather have a line of dialog instead of the camera moving over a swimsuit clad girl for the 10000th time, and I hope you believe me that it's not because girls in swimsuits are against my moral values.

I think the big problem with this thread is that with the exception of SeijiSensei's posts concerning the expansion of blocks like Noitamina (which I don't oppose), nobody is really presenting a vision for what a concentrated effort to make anime mainstream would look like.
Indeed. In particular, if people think your generic action show (teenagers with big robots/superpowers battle generic demons/superviliians lacking clear goals and motivation in a poorly developed world full of randomly imported symbolism) can compete with a prime time TV crime show they're fooling themselves.

I haven't considered some of the most obviously western audience targetted anime out there to be all that good.
Understatement. Every generic harem show blows the "plot" of Afro Samurai out of the water. People who watch the crime shows listed above will consider it an insult to their intelligence.

[MeoTwister5]

In reality there are many, many anime shows out there that go above and beyond to prove that anime is fully capable of being an entertainment, storytelling and "cerebral" form that is often reserved for other... more "accepted" mediums. Roger Ebert showed how that was with his review "Grave of the Fireflies".

Personally it's these shows that should get more exposure to change the minds of people who equate anime with oversized eyes and pantyshots galore.

[durack]

I agree with you ncomplete, for anime to be accepted it would need to change the way people perceive it but not the content itself. This season I'm watching six shows that could be enjoyed by anyone, Aoi Bungaku, DTB, Arashi, Sasameki Koto, Bantorra and Trapeze. There are probably more but six is a pretty good number.


Sasameki koto? Hmm, I doubt that Queer as Folk was enjoyed by _everyone_ in the West.

[npcomplete]

I don't know if you understand his position. I don't even know if I understand his position. But: You don't have to be "offended" by the quantity, quality, or form of fanservice offered to be annoyed by it. Nor do you have to live in more "conservative areas". Is that really so hard to understand?

You really misunderstood me. I bring that point up in response to the idea that people want to see anime as a whole change in order for anime to be accepted. In other words I'm addressing the idea that goes beyond annoyance or opinions of individual titles where: in order to overcome the negative stigma, one must sanitize all anime, or at least all of anime brought into a particular region.

I don't mind people's complaints at all. I don't care if people say they hate something because of XYZ. I never argue with people about it. The problem comes when it goes beyond opinion.

This is why I bring up the point about the content already being there. I certainly don't want every show to be filled with panty shots either. And despite liking moe shows, I don't want to be every show to be like that either, nor like Bleach, nor like anything at all. But they already are not. Dialog instead of panty shots? There's plenty to choose from every season.

You make it sound like everybody wants to see as much panty shots as possible, and if not he must be brainwashed by the church or something. It'd rather have a line of dialog instead of the camera moving over a swimsuit clad girl for the 10000th time, and I hope you believe me that it's not because girls in swimsuits are against my moral values.
No, I'm saying that other people are fearing the idea or perhaps DO think that "everybody wants to see as much panty shots as possible," while a fair amount certainly does exist, that's not all there is to anime and that's what is needed to be communicated in order to make anime acceptable -- NOT ban everything ecchi in every anime ever.

But this is why I bring up "offended" people. They are the ones who are passionate enough about whatever they are offended by to either push the negative stigma foward or take action. These are the types of people Triple_R spoke of who go around proclaiming that anime = cartoon porn, or pedobait or whatever. It is not enough to point out the rest that wouldn't offend them. The blogosphere is filled with this type of attitude, and so it is in real life as well in certain areas.

Even without any extreme fanservice, I'm reminded of when some reverend? or someone complained about the sex in Evangelion of all things :rolleyes:, on broadcast news in the US some time ago, basically saying that us Americans need to be wary of "Japanese cartoons". Unfortunately I can't find a clip. And most recently: MD County Removes Dragon Ball Manga from All Schools (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2009-10-22/md-county-removes-dragon-ball-manga-from-all-schools) -- including High School btw, where a council member said (http://io9.com/5383540/dragon-ball-spice-and-wolf-and-low+class-filth-in-manga-nsfw)

"The drawings and story lines are disgusting," Holloway, a Republican grandfather, said. Although some county and state library officials spoke out in favor of graphic novels and parental responsibility, the book was quickly pulled from the school library. The blog Delmarva Dealings ran the post title "Wicomico Schools Peddle Smut to Children."

There was this incident (http://www.cbldf.org/pr/000317-texas-dragballz.shtml) in 1999 causing Toy's R Us to remove all Dragon Ball manga from their stores

A father purchased a pack of these comics for his 4-year-old son at Toys 'R' Us, only to be horrified by what he described as "borderline soft porn" images of "naked boys and girls" in the comic. He complained to Toys 'R' Us management and the local authorities.

The man's son was a fan of the animated Dragon Ball Z television show which airs every afternoon on Cartoon Network.
...
Like the comic, the Dragon Ball Z television show is produced in Japan and aimed primarily at boys ages 10 to 17. However, the television show is edited before broadcast in the States to tone down violence and sexual elements. Toriyama is unwilling to have his original comic work "edited" in a similar manner for US publication.

Daniel Cocanougher of the Fort Worth-based Funimation Productions, which produces the show in the United States, describes the sexual content of the series as "innocent behavior that hints at sexuality. This poses no problem for Japanese audiences, whereas in the United States we seem to not want to discuss it at all."

Dr. Susan Napier, associate professor of Asian studies at the University of Texas in Austin, agrees. "There is just a wider tolerance for sexuality in Japan," she said. "It usually is played out humorously and perhaps titillating in a mild way. It's just a difference in cultural sensibilities."

The boy's father remains unconvinced. "I don't want it to be to the point that when I'm at Toys 'R' Us I have to put everything through a porn-scanner." :heh:

This is my point about changing people's minds rather than changing content. Because "going mainstream" means appeasing these folks.

And if something as tame as Dragonball easily offends an entire community enough to trigger this kind of action, then the only change possible is to make anime itself like mainstream western cartoons.

[durack]

This is my point about changing people's minds rather than changing content. Because "going mainstream" means appeasing these folks.

And if something as tame as Dragonball easily offends an entire community enough to trigger this kind of action, then the only change possible is to make anime itself like mainstream western cartoons.

You will never appease those people (the Capalert crowd and the like) because a large portion of them thinks Disney cartoons are satanic. If you make enough money, you can ignore them.

Of course if you live in this kind of community, sucks to be you.

Of note, this incident was 10 years ago!

[bhl88]

We will be stuck with conservatives for life XD :heh:

(but somehow I feel that's a good thing...)


In the classic 1991 anime Otaku no Video, proselytizing anime fans overcome the haters, take over the world and sail off on a spaceship into the stars, but most manga and anime fans are more like the ones in the 2002 manga Genshiken: perfectly happy in their private fandom but not so eager to spread the message.


Not in the mood to spread love for anime and manga... :uhoh:

(More otaku anime, less normal ones)

[lubczyk]

You will never appease those people (the Capalert crowd and the like) because a large portion of them thinks Disney cartoons are satanic. If you make enough money, you can ignore them.

Of course if you live in this kind of community, sucks to be you.

Of note, this incident was 10 years ago!

These people make up a super minority. There's always someone who is going to be offended.

If you're going to design anime for the European or American market, you have to make it with cultural norms in mind.

Plus, manga and comics have no place in school libraries.

[Ansalem]

Plus, manga and comics have no place in school libraries.

Why exactly is that? As far as objectionable content, there are plenty of classic literary works sound in high school libraries containing violence, sex, and vulgar language, which have mostly returned to libraries since the time of widespread book banning. And as far as possessing enough merit to be in a library, I'm sure they have things like Harry Potter, which certainly isn't any more educational than manga.

[Sheba]

Plus, manga and comics have no place in school libraries.


It depends on the place. I know plenty of school libraries that have them.

[Nosauz]

@lubczyk

what seperates manga/comics from the rest of the fiction section? Talk about bad trolling

[Triple_R]

I was a big western comic book fan in my youth.

My parents had no problem with the hobby, with one exception...


Dad: Wow, look at all the words on that page!

Mom: That must be really intense reading, eh?


And... I have to admit... they often had a point. :heh:


I'm not sure if picture-books (of any sort) is what school libraries should be promoting (at the high school level, at least). To be brutally honest, it doesn't challenge and grow a person's reading abilities the way a pure text book does. This is the key difference between Harry Potter and manga/comics. It's an entirely different level of reading immersion/comprehension with a pure text book. The words don't just accentuate visuals or provide dialogue... the words are the entire story, and if you don't read them very carefully, you'll lose the story entirely (whereas you can almost skim through the words on many manga/comic book pages and not really miss a beat).


In a way, I'm kind of glad that there weren't comic books at my public school library when I was growing up... because it forced me to read heavier books and hence improve my reading abilities.


So, in fairness to Lubczyk, he kind of has a point.

[Sheba]

And the school libraries I visited had european comics, and manga, sitting next to more "normal" books. Only absent ones in these places were superhero comics.

[GuidoHunter_Toki]

I agree with Triple R in the the sense that non-picture books are generally more efficient at developing one's reading abilities. With that said, I dont believe manga should be completely devoid in schools (as it is always good to offer many forms of literature at any library).



Personally it's these shows that should get more exposure to change the minds of people who equate anime with oversized eyes and pantyshots galore.

I have always held that belief as well. There are plenty of great anime out there that can appeal to a wider audience. They just need enough exposure for people to actually notice and check them out.

[Triple_R]

I agree with Triple R in the the sense that non-picture books are generally more efficient at developing one's reading abilities. With that said, I dont believe manga should be completely devoid in schools (as it is always good to offer many forms of literature at any library).

Well, it might be a good idea to have a couple mangas there so that kids basically know that it exists, yes, and can look into it further through the internet or stores if they happen to be interested in reading more.

Any reading is better than no reading at all.

But the bread and butter of a library is the non-picture book; that's ideally what you want the kids reading.

[GuidoHunter_Toki]

Well, it might be a good idea to have a couple mangas there so that kids basically know that it exists, yes, and can look into it further through the internet or stores if they happen to be interested in reading more.

Any reading is better than no reading at all.

But the bread and butter of a library is the non-picture book; that's ideally what you want the kids reading.

Indeed, since it is a school, you want students reading material that will effectively stimulate their reading abilities.

[animeboy12]

Indeed, since it is a school, you want students reading material that will effectively stimulate their reading abilities.

Ideally but I don't think that's the point of a library, school or otherwise. When I was in highschool we were taught that the puprose of a library is to have a arhive of information, manga being one of them. I don't see why we need to give strang looks or restrict a libraries access to manga and anime when not only do libraries carry an extensive catalog of music, movies, and soon videogames (http://www.librarygamingtoolkit.org/) but those anime series and manga are just as much information(well classified) as a book.

[Triple_R]

Ideally but I don't think that's the point of a library, school or otherwise.

I disagree. That is the point of a school library. It is there to encourage students to develop their reading skills, and to work in a quiet setting on educational matters.


When I was in highschool we were taught that the puprose of a library is to have a archive of information, manga being one of them.

One computer with an internet hookup gives you all the archive of information that you could want.


I don't see why we need to give strange looks or restrict a libraries access to manga and anime when not only do libraries carry an extensive catalog of music, movies, and soon videogames (http://www.librarygamingtoolkit.org/) but those anime series and manga are just as much information(well classified) as a book.

No, that's taking it too far, animeboy.

You load up a library with manga, music, movies, and video games, and I can pretty much guarantee you that students (male students in particular) will barely if ever touch non-picture books... and that will be to their detriment.

School libraries aren't there for students to goof off and have fun... they're there to serve an educational purpose, which includes improving reading ability


You might have a point when it comes to public libraries, but not when it comes to school libraries.

[GuidoHunter_Toki]

Ideally but I don't think that's the point of a library, school or otherwise. When I was in highschool we were taught that the puprose of a library is to have a arhive of information, manga being one of them. I don't see why we need to give strang looks or restrict a libraries access to manga and anime when not only do libraries carry an extensive catalog of music, movies, and soon videogames (http://www.librarygamingtoolkit.org/) but those anime series and manga are just as much information(well classified) as a book.

Which is why I said school libraries shouldn't be completely devoid of manga. However I don't think it should dominate the shelves either. However I guess at the same time if it did have more shelf power it might attract more people to the library, thus they gain possible interest in other books. I find that a small possibility though as I'd assume most would just go there for the entertainment and not even touch the variety of educational books at their disposal.

I just don't think manga gives such a wide array of educational value as general books in a library can. Manga is more of an entertainment form of literature than an informational form, thus will readers brains be challenged at a high enough level or helping them directly with their school studies?

[Nosauz]

Medium doesn't dictate content, if you think about it manga/comics versus some fiction is lightyears beyond what novels bring. Character development is sometimes more subtle in these hybrids because the feels aren't written, just look at HP, most of the feelings that characters share are pretty straight forward, the characters outside of snape are pretty one dimensional whereas when you look at a work like Genshiken or hell even Love Hina then you have something with tons of character development and probably more overall character growth then in something that is like HP. It really depends on the WORK not the medium, but then again dinosaurs did become extinct for a reason.

[GuidoHunter_Toki]

Medium doesn't dictate content, if you think about it manga/comics versus some fiction is lightyears beyond what novels bring. Character development is sometimes more subtle in these hybrids because the feels aren't written, just look at HP, most of the feelings that characters share are pretty straight forward, the characters outside of snape are pretty one dimensional whereas when you look at a work like Genshiken or hell even Love Hina then you have something with tons of character development and probably more overall character growth then in something that is like HP. It really depends on the WORK not the medium, but then again dinosaurs did become extinct for a reason.

Honestly, did we read the same Harry Potter books. Your opinion completely flip flops on my point of view, as I find Love Hina as having pretty sub-par character development and Harry Potter having superior. Maybe it is just because I love the Harry Potter books and read them so much I'm able to catch onto a lot of the little things. I do agree that many characters seem to follow a straight forward path as far as feelings are concerned, but that doesn't make their development completely un-unique.

Honestly I never had a liking for Love Hina because of the characters. They seemed to unrelatable for me to become invested in them and many of them rubbed me off as cardboard cut out personalities of typical character types found in manga/anime. At least when I read Harry Potter the characters actually elt unique, with their own identity.

In my opinion while I find manga has more outlandish and unique concepts as far as stories/characters go, I can usually find more depth with most of the non-manga novels I read at my local library. I sometimes spend entire Saturday mornings at a bookstore or library reading manga, written novels, anything in general (reading is my favorit passtime). There may be some repeating themes (manga has tons of that as well) within several materials, but the descriptivness of many of the novels just does what a manga can't do, thus I feel more emersed in the world.

I hold no offense to your opinion, just expressing mine.:)

[Nosauz]

Narusegewa has very little development but some characters are not quite shallow, and it's their complexity that makes the manga really bareable. Mitoko, specifically, but still I felt all the harry potter, besides snape, and probably cerebus were very weak. Now if you want to talk about good characters, maybe look at the Chronicles of Narnia, or Dune or Lord of the rings.

I mean I understand that many archetypes are over used in manga but they occur as often in literature as others. I mean imitation is the highest form of flattery. My point was more of how the characters reveal themselves and their thoughts in Potter are quite overt and not as subtle as a well written manga.

[GuidoHunter_Toki]

I mean I understand that many archetypes are over used in manga but they occur as often in literature as others. I mean imitation is the highest form of flattery. My point was more of how the characters reveal themselves and their thoughts in Potter are quite overt and not as subtle as a well written manga.

Well there is always going to be standouts in all forms of literature in terms of characterization, story, etc., but I remain with my stance that overall, as far as developing reading skills is concerned, written novels will always offer more than manga can. Manga/comics have limitations where they can't reach past a certain point of literary administration.

[animeboy12]

I disagree. That is the point of a school library. It is there to encourage students to develop their reading skills, and to work in a quiet setting on educational matters.

Ok and I disagree with your disagreement. I was taught my school librarian of that the purpose of a library a to archive information of ALL KINDS


One computer with an internet hookup gives you all the archive of information that you could want.

So then what's the point of having books?


No, that's taking it too far, animeboy.

You load up a library with manga, music, movies, and video games, and I can pretty much guarantee you that students (male students in particular) will barely if ever touch non-picture books... and that will be to their detriment.

School libraries aren't there for students to goof off and have fun... they're there to serve an educational purpose, which includes improving reading ability


You might have a point when it comes to public libraries, but not when it comes to school libraries.

How am I taking things too far? shouldn't an individual be responsible for how he/she uses a library? And How can you guarantee what people are going to be doing with a library?

Which is why I said school libraries shouldn't be completely devoid of manga. However I don't think it should dominate the shelves either. However I guess at the same time if it did have more shelf power it might attract more people to the library, thus they gain possible interest in other books. I find that a small possibility though as I'd assume most would just go there for the entertainment and not even touch the variety of educational books at their disposal.

I really hope you and Triple_R aren't assuming that I would actually want manga and anime in libraries at the expense of books because that's pretty much missing my point(that and I never mentioned books). I think that libraries in general should carry a WIDE VARIETY of information ie books, movies, music, videogames etc etc. I'm not naive to think that the educational value of anime in general is on par or superior to books but they still deserve a place in a library big or small just not that the expensive of other sources.

[GuidoHunter_Toki]

I really hope you and Triple_R aren't assuming that I would actually want manga and anime in libraries at the expense of books because that's pretty much missing my point(that and I never mentioned books). I think that libraries in general should carry a WIDE VARIETY of information ie books, movies, music, videogames etc etc. I'm not naive I to think that the educational value of anime in general is on par or superior to books but they still deserve a place in a library.

Which is why I continue to state that I don't think manga should be devoid from libraries at all, because I do think variety is needed. I just believe that if manga (as well as videogames, comics, etc.) is included in large amounts it will be a big distraction away from other reading materials. Many people (especially kids in school) can tend to have a mindset of "entertainment only" when thinking of manga/comics. Now would people take entertainment "easier to read content" over challenging reading materials?; many would, thus if manga was included in large amounts I could see a good majority flocking to it and it only.

I don't give a crap if public libraries ares tocked up the wazoo with manga, but in a learning enviornment such as a school it could become a double-edged sword in my opinion.

[Nosauz]

Well there is always going to be standouts in all forms of literature in terms of characterization, story, etc., but I remain with my stance that overall, as far as developing reading skills is concerned, written novels will always offer more than manga can. Manga/comics have limitations where they can't reach past a certain point of literary administration.

I'll give you that, but when it comes to action/fantasy/scifi/romance I would put them about on equal grounding if we are talking about above average- excellent range, on par of course. But yes an Moby dick manga would probably not be able to catch all the intricacies of melville, but if you look at shakespeare, Adachi did a decent job in rough

also the four chinese classics have been done in manga style and they are really well done, just what you to know, of course in chinese.

[Triple_R]

Which is why I continue to state that I don't think manga should be devoid from libraries at all, because I do think variety is needed. I just believe that if manga (as well as videogames, comics, etc.) is included in large amounts it will be a big distraction away from other reading materials. Many people (especially kids in school) can tend to have a mindset of "entertainment only" when thinking of manga/comics. Now would people take entertainment "easier to read content" over challenging reading materials?; many would, thus if manga was included in large amounts I could see a good majority flocking to it and it only.


Right.

That's exactly my point.

[Ansalem]

I feel we've all come back to what I was originally saying, which was someone said manga/comics shouldn't be in libraries and I said there was no reason for them not to be. :heh:

[lubczyk]

I feel we've all come back to what I was originally saying, which was someone said manga/comics shouldn't be in libraries and I said there was no reason for them not to be. :heh:

Not in SCHOOL libraries. The school library is not a bookstore.

[Ansalem]

Not in SCHOOL libraries. The school library is not a bookstore.

True, they are indeed not book store. Now what does that have to do with whether or not this particular medium should be in a library? You still haven't given a reason that they should be prohibited.

[animeboy12]

eh......Well, to sort of come back to the topic. Do western shows and animations do well in Japan?

[animeboy12]

yesh.. When it rains it pours I guess. Here, another doom and gloom articles written 3 days ago by the wall street journal

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703819904574551834260925714.html

[Nosauz]

yesh.. When it rains it pours I guess. Here, another doom and gloom articles written 3 days ago by the wall street journal

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703819904574551834260925714.html

anime is still a niche entertainment field, and probably won't mature until another 20 years when my generation gets into the money, but I mean it's obvious that the surge in the internet has caused a shift from the original models. Time roll with the punches or just drown in the water, the status quo can't be maintained forever.

[Vexx]

There Is Nothing Wrong with remaining a niche consumer field. Many quite lucrative vendors do quite nicely in small small consumer base fields (hobbies, sports, literature, etc)

But it does require that *enough* people pay for the product for the creators to be able to sustain it. It doesn't matter if a million eyeballs watch something as long as the patrons spend enough money to make it profitable for the creators to continue.

Want more anime? Buy some of the product, preferably directly from Japan but at least buy some. No, you don't have to buy everything. Yes, many fans have small budgets. But if it is that important to you, you gotta throw a few dollars in the hat when the performance pleases you.

[Nosauz]

I meant it's niche market saturation point, where it's hieght of proportion to the mainstream market is reached. The reason why I say this, because if you look at the history of drawn comics/manga, its natural for the mainstream to cast it aside, or use it for as a fad, but that exposure does give it more area to grow, the main problem is many of these companies have overextended making assumption of the size of the market where as their expectations wouldn't be met till the awareness of anime/manga/comics is broadened. Thanks to the internet that will happen more so, and it's full potential as a global niche market will definitely be much greater in the future, thats all I meant to say, not what you might have enterpreted me in saying that I want anime/manga to go mainstream. Niche is where most businesses make there money mass market only can succeed so much, and due to the nature of entertainment niche markets are much more suitable.

[lubczyk]

I meant it's niche market saturation point, where it's hieght of proportion to the mainstream market is reached. The reason why I say this, because if you look at the history of drawn comics/manga, its natural for the mainstream to cast it aside, or use it for as a fad, but that exposure does give it more area to grow, the main problem is many of these companies have overextended making assumption of the size of the market where as their expectations wouldn't be met till the awareness of anime/manga/comics is broadened. Thanks to the internet that will happen more so, and it's full potential as a global niche market will definitely be much greater in the future, thats all I meant to say, not what you might have enterpreted me in saying that I want anime/manga to go mainstream. Niche is where most businesses make there money mass market only can succeed so much, and due to the nature of entertainment niche markets are much more suitable.

Hollywood and Bollywood are only surviving due to remaining niche. Damn them if they ever went mainstream!!! Same for books and music industries. Them Toyota and Mazda are doing awful due to being mainstream not catering to niche car enthusiasts like Lamborghini and Corvette.

[animeboy12]

Hollywood and Bollywood are only surviving due to remaining niche. Damn them if they ever went mainstream!!! Same for books and music industries. Them Toyota and Mazda are doing awful due to being mainstream not catering to niche car enthusiasts like Lamborghini and Corvette.

..........................................:stupid:

[Nosauz]

lol condescending much.... Mainstream implies that it can appeal to the general public, think of anime/manga in terms of food, anime/manga is your authentic schezuan hot pot, whereas as hollywood is your mcdonalds, and bollywood is your ramen stand. Does schezuan hot pot not make money? it does, but only enthuasiasts will constantly eat it where as your asian food fan might try it once. Again I don't really care about flash in the pan, longevity for niche markets are what make them good, they cater to one group and they do it really well.

[Sheba]

There Is Nothing Wrong with remaining a niche consumer field.



Tabletop pen & paper RPG players can relate to that. They lived over 30 years with being stuck in a niche market.

Only thing they can lament is the appearance of MMORPG, especially WoW.

[synaesthetic]

The appearance of MMOGs should make everyone lament. D:

[Vexx]

The appearance of MMOGs should make everyone lament. D:
I actually enjoy them.. but mostly on a casual basis. They seem to have exterminated my favorite gameplay -- LAN multiplay RPG for the most part. I like playing with people I know and who aren't 'tards. :) There's more opportunity to find people in an MMO... but it also tends to jaundice your view of humanity in large groups :)

Likewise in anime, I tend to have a better chance of finding people I find interesting to talk to (rather than, say, a football sports bar :P).

[synaesthetic]

I took my response to PMs because it's off topic. ^^;

[lubczyk]

A lot of fans on this board seem like they just want to keep the status quo and are resistant to change. It's funny, because anime has changed great over the last decade or so and will continue to do so without their input.

Us message board types are the minority, after all.

[bhl88]

Right now it's at it's maximum potential for change.

[Nosauz]

A lot of fans on this board seem like they just want to keep the status quo and are resistant to change. It's funny, because anime has changed great over the last decade or so and will continue to do so without their input.

Us message board types are the minority, after all.

yes but it will never be mainstream, just due to the intrinsic cost of and production of anime cannot compete with live footage. Plus anime has no reality tv which is the most popular form of television or visual media streamed through the "television" Reality tv costs next to nothing and can generate viewership numbers through the roof with out having to have writers, actors, they have the least amount of overhead, whereas anime requires source material, usually required multiple writers to and scripters, an entire animation squad, and voice acting talent, the overhead is astronomical compared to other forms of television. But not only that, there will always be some stigma towards drawn art versus live picture or words, unfortunately there is and the stigma will be something hard to break. Niche doesn't mean small, it just means focused. Niche doesn't mean status quo, using catchy words doesn't make your point valid.

I'm serious atleast point to where I've made bad points and i'll debate you about them

[bhl88]

There must be a better model so that anime would survive

[Bri]

lol condescending much.... Mainstream implies that it can appeal to the general public, think of anime/manga in terms of food, anime/manga is your authentic schezuan hot pot, whereas as hollywood is your mcdonalds, and bollywood is your ramen stand. Does schezuan hot pot not make money? it does, but only enthuasiasts will constantly eat it where as your asian food fan might try it once. Again I don't really care about flash in the pan, longevity for niche markets are what make them good, they cater to one group and they do it really well.

I like the food analogy. Anime as a specific strong flavour that does not appeal to everyone but is really satisfying for the those who like it.

Anime will be fine as a niche market, the current issues in the industry seem to lie more with the problem of getting the consumers to pay for content, rather then a problem with the content it self, as said before in the thread.

The only issue I have with the niche status is that anime is still pretty much regarded as "geek" culture. It would be nice if it were to recieve the same acceptance as say indie music or niche sports. It gets rather tiring having to defend a hobby choice against preconceptions.

[Slice of Life]

A lot of fans on this board seem like they just want to keep the status quo and are resistant to change. It's funny, because anime has changed great over the last decade or so and will continue to do so without their input.

*shrug* Most things change without our input but that doesn't hinder us from discussing them. Also, the main question discussed here wasn't if anime should or will change at all but if it should attempt to go mainstream and who it would have to change to do so.

At one point anime will have changed in a way to make you and me lose our special interest in it, I guarantee you that. I doubt however that it will have to do with anime successfully going mainstream.

Plus anime has no reality tv which is the most popular form of television or visual media streamed through the "television"

LOL. Now you made me wish for an anime mockumentary/parody about a young hopeful TV team visiting the sooper sekrit base from where the hotblooded robot pilot and his four underlings start their battles against the X beasts from dimension Y. Complete with shaking virtual hand camera, rough cuts and pointless short interviews. Alternatively they could follow a magical girl around and interview the villians why they are out to steal Tokyohite children's dreams.

Has anybody ever tried something like this? The closest I can think of is Flag.

[lubczyk]

I think what most people know as anime is Pokemon or Dragonball. Those went mainstream. Now if we could give other series the same treatment. Like Flag, like mentioned above.

Wasn't Macross SDF or (Robotech) like mainstream in the 80's?

I mean shows like Spirited Away and Ponyo have garnered some mainstream recognition. It's not impossible.

Isn't Naruto like mainstream now? It's around He-Man levels in terms of public awareness.

It's just most anime can't be shown during primetime, just like in Japan, so it continues to be obscure.

Unless you can get on HBO or in theaters, you are bound to be brushed aside as a serious medium.

I mean, I'd like to see some more original programming from FOX and CBS and ABC networks.

[lubczyk]

Anyone Remember the Animated series on FOX Red Planet and Invasion America? Those were pretty good.

I think some original animated programming in the evening could do wonders for animation among the mainstream in terms of acceptance.

[Slice of Life]

Funimation Starts Initiative for Co-Producing Anime (Update 2) (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2009-11-23/funimation-starts-initiative-for-co-producing-anime)

Chris Moujaes to head effort to acquire, develop titles based on properties

The North American anime distributor Funimation has announced on Monday that it has hired Chris Moujaes as Director of Original Entertainment. According to the company, Moujaes will head its "important new co-production initiative" and "focus his efforts on the acquisition and development of a slate of original anime titles based on major intellectual properties."

According to Funimation, Moujaes previously worked an independing producer to develop properties for AOL Kids and served as the president of the Spoonbend branding agency. He co-founded a company called Boomstar to negotiate international television co-productions and to provide animation services through Boomstar's studio facilities in the United States and India.

Manga Entertainment, Bandai Entertainment, and ADV Films were among the other North American anime distributors that co-produced and developed anime titles, instead of just acquiring exisiting anime titles.

Update: Media Blasters (Kite: Liberator) and Urban Vision (Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust) also co-produced anime titles. Central Park Media co-produced MD Geist II - Death Force in 1996. Thanks, Prede.

Update 2: Funimation has confirmed with ANN that its new co-production initiative will bring in anime studios to adapt non-Japanese franchises. This is different from co-producing original Japanese titles as a production committee member, as some of the other North American anime distributors have done. Similar Japanese-animated adaptations of overseas properties have included several Rankin/Bass productions (Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer, The Hobbit, The Last Unicorn, Thundercats), Sin: The Movie, The Animatrix, Witchblade, Batman: Gotham Knight, Halo Legends, and the upcoming Dante's Inferno video project.

Happy discussing. Topics might include: We've been there before, will succeed/fail, this is/is not anime etc.

[dasrune]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqaXxSBZTZc&feature=player_embedded
not sure how well this fits to the topic of this thread, but the fact that louis vuitton has an ad compaign using takashi murakami's visuals means how the world views anime is changing even if its something small like this.

[SeijiSensei]

Update 2: Funimation has confirmed with ANN that its new co-production initiative will bring in anime studios to adapt non-Japanese franchises. This is different from co-producing original Japanese titles as a production committee member, as some of the other North American anime distributors have done. Similar Japanese-animated adaptations of overseas properties have included several Rankin/Bass productions (Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer, The Hobbit, The Last Unicorn, Thundercats), Sin: The Movie, The Animatrix, Witchblade, Batman: Gotham Knight, Halo Legends, and the upcoming Dante's Inferno video project.

I wonder if this isn't an indication of pessimism about the future of the R1 market for Japanese shows on Funi's part. Perhaps they think that there's a larger market in Japan for anime remakes of Western properties than there is a market in R1 for anime. Co-producing shows in Japan for Japanese viewers might help Funimation cover its bets in R1. Perhaps they expect these shows to sell in the West as well, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Funi's decided it's easier to sell animated version of Western shows to Japanese audiences than vice versa.

As for the Murakami/Vuitton connection, remember that Japan itself is a major market for upscale goods like those from LVMH. Here are the sales figures for the past couple of years courtesy of this document (http://www.wikinvest.com/stock/LVMH_Moet_Hennessy_L.V._%28LVMUY%29):

LVMH revenues by year ($ millions)

[tr][td]Region[td]2007[td]2008

[tr][td]United States [td]5758 [td]5526
[tr][td]France [td]3225 [td]3364
[tr][td]Rest of Europe [td]5297 [td]5767
[tr][td]Japan [td]2534 [td]2403
[tr][td]Rest of Asia [td]4376 [td]4805
[tr][td]Australia [td]1843 [td]2162


That "rest of asia" group is growing rapidly, too. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the Murakami campaign was targeted at these regions, not so much the US or Europe.

[Triple_R]

You know... this thread has hinted at something that could be very popular with both a mainstream audience and an otaku audience.

An anime show with a Reality TV show premise (say... "Japan's Top Magical Girl!" or "Japan's Got Mechas!" :heh: )

Otakus might love it because it could be loaded with all sorts of references and anime tropes.

More mainstream audiences might find it appealing just due to the continuing popularity of reality TV... "Reality TV" in an animated format is at least a new twist on what is now a very established sort of show that's been done dozens of different ways.

The show would parody reality TV and anime at the same time... hence appealing to fans of both.


If a show like this appealed a lot to mainstream audiences, what would those here skeptical of going mainstream think then?

[Nosauz]

You know... this thread has hinted at something that could be very popular with both a mainstream audience and an otaku audience.

An anime show with a Reality TV show premise (say... "Japan's Top Magical Girl!" or "Japan's Got Mechas!" :heh: )

Otakus might love it because it could be loaded with all sorts of references and anime tropes.

More mainstream audiences might find it appealing just due to the continuing popularity of reality TV... "Reality TV" in an animated format is at least a new twist on what is now a very established sort of show that's been done dozens of different ways.

The show would parody reality TV and anime at the same time... hence appealing to fans of both.


If a show like this appealed a lot to mainstream audiences, what would those here skeptical of going mainstream think then?

SoL kinda hit on it his response to me, and it would be imo a really funny new concept to work but again your ratings would have to be able to compete with the gameshow format or you'd have to be so good at otaku marketing that you could get approximately have the nightly numbers as a game show and sell about the amount of dvds twice that of pretty safe niche markets. The reason why gameshows/reality tv sell well is because it's cheap to produce and they make a killing off syndication. And they are easyily penetrable to foreign markets, just look at who wants to be a millionaire. I mean if you think about a gritty cop drama, that could actually be done really well in animated format, because you can juxtapose a noir setting with your animation to give it a more realistic edge but then again it all depends on how the market will react to an animated show in the primetime, and as for your otaku centered game show, it's still heavily working that nitch market but instead you are parodying the niche which is still a niche market in the long run.

[Slice of Life]

The only mainstream audience such an anime could reach is the Japanese one. Because they might know the tropes from their childhood. On the other hand, they might not like seeing their childhood memories being deconstructed and made fun of.

[brocko]

The animated reality show has been done before.
It's not quite anime per say, but it's still animated nonetheless. Pretty wacky and entertaining show it was :heh:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drawn_Together

[Nosauz]

The animated reality show has been done before.
It's not quite anime per say, but it's still animated nonetheless. Pretty wacky and entertaining show it was :heh:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drawn_Together

naw it was more of a parody of super hero high, or w/e that series was called. WHere the clones of histories great people go to high school together. And it's specifically a parody on iconic heroes of american animation.

[Ricky Controversy]

What I'm a bit confused by is the all-or-nothing attitude I saw in a number of the posts I've read in this topic. Why is anime being discussed as some cohesive unit that will go mainstream or remain obscure? In any subculture, regardless of its level of popular acceptance, there will be items represented in the mainstream, and items which constitute the obscure. Think of any music genre you like, for instance: there will be some bands which are popular and others that are obscure.

Similarly, the sort of anime that are already obscure amidst the otaku core will remain obscure, and those that are popular will be popular. You can argue all you want about how things becoming popularized leads to catering to the lowest common denominator--it often does--but it's also a very useful and necessary process for both the evolution of the form and the growth of the participants. Allow me to expand on this idea.

The artists of a given medium occupy many different roles, but it is an acceptable generalization to group some as innovators and others as followers. Now I'm going to hit you with something that the Ivory Tower auteur crowd doesn't want you to hear: neither role is better or worse than the other! True, the innovators explore new possibilities/concepts in their medium while the followers tread already-discovered ground, but this doesn't actually say anything about their quality! It is in fact more often the case that the first people to experiment with an idea will get it wrong, or fail to grasp the full potential of what they've chanced upon. Similarly, just because the followers weren't the first ones to reach some concept doesn't mean that their touching it immediately turns it to crap. Often, it is the followers who take already-explored concepts to their peak of perfection, as they've had the luxury to observe its development from a safe, objective distance. They are also often the ones who make innovations communicable to a wider audience, simply because they've had more time to find ways to do so.

This is true in anime as it is in music, painting, literature, poetry, architecture, science, etc. There will be anime studios and manga artists experimenting with concepts well ahead of time. They will most likely labor under popular obscurity but receive critical acclaim. Maybe years later, when the followers have produced works with similar concepts in a more widely communicable form, people will have the language to appreciate the original works and go back and enjoy them. This is the true potential of popularized media.

Now, do shows often pull ridiculous stunts or tricks to appeal to the lowest common denominator? Yes. Am I saying that popular media is inherently good because it's popular? No. But I am saying that I think the trend these days of vilifying popularity or 'the mainstream' just because it has broad appeal is counterproductive. If you give up on the possibility of something popular being good, than you're already dooming something that could be both to obscurity. And to what end? To protect that thing? I'm sorry, but that's a fool's attitude. People need to wake up and realize that the existence of bad things in a medium doesn't reduce the value of that medium overall. Anyone who has studied the psychology of creativity both on an individual or societal level can tell you that you basically need to go through a process of getting a thousand bad ideas out of the way to hit on the good ones: that's the trial-and-error element of creativity that our pseudo-intellectually-ruled society doesn't want to admit to: God forbid the artist comes up with ideas any way other than pulling them from his divine sphincter.

If you ask me if the popularization of anime will lead to a rise in the number of bad or generic animes produced, of course I'll tell you yes. But it will also bring anime to a fresh fan-and-talent pool that could breath some very unique new life into it. A great American anime would be radically different from a great Japanese anime, but it can still be so and be great. Same goes for a great [Insert Nationality Here] anime. Indeed, an outsider's perspective is generally the heart of any artistic revolution, and I fear for anime culture if we sit around wondering why 'anime is on the decline' when the only source of vitality is to turn further in on ourselves: basically asking why we're dying off when we sustain ourselves on cannibalism.

I, for one, think we should stop assuming that the only people 'worthy' of anime are those who have already found it. Let's welcome the opportunity to broaden our circle of communal friends, bring in fresh talent and if the mainstream shows that get people to turn their eyes to the form don't appeal to you, well, just remember that when a studio or individual has attained mainstream popularity, they gain the leeway to experiment more and create works geared more to the purpose of artistry.

[Triple_R]

What I'm a bit confused by is the all-or-nothing attitude I saw in a number of the posts I've read in this topic. Why is anime being discussed as some cohesive unit that will go mainstream or remain obscure? In any subculture, regardless of its level of popular acceptance, there will be items represented in the mainstream, and items which constitute the obscure. Think of any music genre you like, for instance: there will be some bands which are popular and others that are obscure.

Similarly, the sort of anime that are already obscure amidst the otaku core will remain obscure, and those that are popular will be popular. You can argue all you want about how things becoming popularized leads to catering to the lowest common denominator--it often does--but it's also a very useful and necessary process for both the evolution of the form and the growth of the participants. Allow me to expand on this idea.

The artists of a given medium occupy many different roles, but it is an acceptable generalization to group some as innovators and others as followers. Now I'm going to hit you with something that the Ivory Tower auteur crowd doesn't want you to hear: neither role is better or worse than the other! True, the innovators explore new possibilities/concepts in their medium while the followers tread already-discovered ground, but this doesn't actually say anything about their quality! It is in fact more often the case that the first people to experiment with an idea will get it wrong, or fail to grasp the full potential of what they've chanced upon. Similarly, just because the followers weren't the first ones to reach some concept doesn't mean that their touching it immediately turns it to crap. Often, it is the followers who take already-explored concepts to their peak of perfection, as they've had the luxury to observe its development from a safe, objective distance. They are also often the ones who make innovations communicable to a wider audience, simply because they've had more time to find ways to do so.

This is true in anime as it is in music, painting, literature, poetry, architecture, science, etc. There will be anime studios and manga artists experimenting with concepts will ahead of time. They will most likely labor under popular obscurity but receive critical acclaim. Maybe years later, when the followers have produced works with similar concepts in a more widely communicable form, people will have the language to appreciate the original works and go back and enjoy them. This is the true potential of popularized media.

Now, do shows often pull ridiculous stunts or tricks to appeal to the lowest common denominator? Yes. Am I saying that popular media is inherently good because it's popular? No. But I am saying that I think the trend these days of vilifying popularity or 'the mainstream' just because it has broad appeal is counterproductive. If you give up on the possibility of something popular being good, than you're already dooming something that could be both to obscurity. And to what end? To protect that thing? I'm sorry, but that's a fool's attitude. People need to wake up and realize that the existence of bad things in a medium doesn't reduce the value of that medium overall. Anyone who has studied the psychology of creativity both on an individual or societal level can tell you that you basically need to go through a process of getting a thousand bad ideas out of the way to hit on the good ones: that's the trial-and-error element of creativity that our pseudo-intellectually-ruled society doesn't want to admit to: God forbid the artist comes up with ideas any way other than pulling them from his divine sphincter.

If you ask me if the popularization of anime will lead to a rise in the number of bad or generic animes produced, of course I'll tell you yes. But it will also bring anime to a fresh fan-and-talent pool that could breath some very unique new life into it. A great American anime would be radically different from a great Japanese anime, but it can still be so and be great. Same goes for a great [Insert Nationality Here] anime. Indeed, an outsider's perspective is generally the heart of any artistic revolution, and I fear for anime culture if we sit around wondering why 'anime is on the decline'--which I also don't believe--when the only source of vitality is to turn further in on ourselves: basically asking why we're dying off when we sustain ourselves on cannibalism.

I, for one, think we should stop assuming that the only people 'worthy' of anime are those who have already found it. Let's welcome the opportunity to broaden our circle of communal friends, bring in fresh talent and if the mainstream shows that get people to turn their eyes to the form don't appeal to you, well, just remember that when a studio or individual has attained mainstream popularity, they gain the leeway to experiment more and create works geared more to the purpose of artistry.

Excellent post, Ricky.

I'd only add one slight counter-argument, and an addition to your own points...

1) I fear that anime is on the decline, at least in the area of commercial viability. A lot of anime shows have DVD sales that don't even crack 5000 copies in sales... which I've read is a "breaking even" or slight profitability threshold. As such, I'm inclined to believe that the vast majority of these sub-5000 sales animes represent a net commercial loss for the animation studios that produce them. So... unless these animation studios have a "big seller" or two in their fleet of shows, then it probably becomes financially infeasible for them to continue producing these unprofitable anime.

To put it more bluntly, the availability of some of the more obscure otaku-focused fare may depend on a "big seller" or two to make their creation affordable for animation studios.


2) And here's where I make a supporting addition to your points, even though it's based off of my slight disagreement in No. 1. You're right that a few mainstream-appealing anime aren't going to mean the demise of more obscure otaku fare... quite the contrary, I would even argue that anime needs these proverbial cash cows to make less profitable works financially viable.

A mixture of mainstream titles with otaku-oriented titles may not only be ideal... it may ultimately be commercially necessary...


To use an analogy... the comic book industry has, for quite some time now, put out more obscure titles that are significantly different from spandex-clad super-hero fare, and that appeal to a different audience interested in something a bit darker than Superman, or even Batman. However, it's the Supermans, Batmans, Spidermans, and Wolverines, of the comic book industry that makes it financially possible for DC and Marvel to take some creative risks on titles like that. These mainstream titles basically keep the more obscure stuff afloat.

[Slice of Life]

@Ricky Controversy

The problem with your theory is that a highly professional entertainment business will always try and cater the mainstream. Anime is a highly professional business and does already cater the mainstream. It's just the mainstream of the otaku crowd. They're locked in a gravity well so to say.

That does already explain many of the problems people have with the medium. Why don't they do super robot shows anymore like they did in the 70s. Because only a minoriy is interested in them. A sizable minority maybe, but still a minority. Why does there have to be a loli and/or moeblob in almost every anime? Or at least a maid somewhere? Because the majority or maybe only a plurality wants it. I exaggerate a bit to make my point clear but I don't think that even the otaku market in its diversity is optimally catered as it is and that there is clearly a tendency to cater a fictional average otaku instead.

Now if anime will ever be successful with the real mainstream, be it in Japan, USA or wherever, I predict we'll soon see a phase transition in which virtually every studio will switch towards where they think the money is. So much about diversity.

Now you say, but they still do good music. That is true. But the two media aren't comparable because you cannot produce a 26 episodes anime in a garage. If you look only at what the big labels promote, music has become much more streamlined than it was 25 years ago. There is no place for a thousand ideas in anime in any case, you're get five per year if you're lucky.

Another point: An American anime cannot be great for the simple reason that there is no such thing as an American anime. Or Korean for that matter. Anime are Japanese cartoons produced for a Japanese audience. And in my heart of hearts I don't really classify Afro Samurai as anime either although that one has at least been produced by a Japanese studio. And although it hasn't been produced for a Japanese audience, it has been produced for an audience familiar with anime.

I'm not saying this because I'm a purist who thinks that any cartoon produced in Japan automatically rules and anything produced somewhere else automatically fails (although I'm of course convinced that Japanese productions are clearly superior on average, otherwise I wouldn't waste my time here). I'm saying that because I wouldn't know how to define an anime otherwise. And when you combine the terms "American anime" and "mainstream" I understand even less what exactly you're talking about. How does what you want to express differ from simply saying the USA should produce better cartoons?

[Ricky Controversy]

To use an analogy... the comic book industry has, for quite some time now, put out more obscure titles that are significantly different from spandex-clad super-hero fare, and that appeal to a different audience interested in something a bit darker than Superman, or even Batman. However, it's the Supermans, Batmans, Spidermans, and Wolverines, of the comic book industry that makes it financially possible for DC and Marvel to take some creative risks on titles like that. These mainstream titles basically keep the more obscure stuff afloat.

Good analogy. Further, I'd like to add that I think with the internet being what it is now, and otaku culture generally being a pretty wired one, the simplest answer may just be for every studio to operate in two markets. Mainstream titles can be the "For Television" fare, while the more 'risky' stuff can be marketed online for a fixed rate per episode.


@Ricky Controversy

The problem with your theory is that a highly professional entertainment business will always try and cater the mainstream. Anime is a highly professional business and does already cater the mainstream. It's just the mainstream of the otaku crowd. They're locked in a gravity well so to say.

That does already explain many of the problems people have with the medium. Why don't they do super robot shows anymore like they did in the 70s. Because only a minority is interested in them. A sizable minority maybe, but still a minority. Why does there have to be a loli and/or moeblob in almost every anime? Or at least a maid somewhere? Because the majority or maybe only a plurality wants it. I exaggerate a bit to make my point clear but I don't think that even the otaku market in its diversity is optimally catered as it is and that there is clearly a tendency to cater a fictional average otaku instead.

I actually articulated this very point in my previous post: the concept that there is already an otaku mainstream being catered towards by the industry. In fact, my arguments hinge on that assumption.

Now if anime will ever be successful with the real mainstream, be it in Japan, USA or wherever, I predict we'll soon see a phase transition in which virtually every studio will switch towards where they think the money is. So much about diversity.

This has always been the case. The majority of the industry has always been about making money: that's the nature of an industry. However, creating and cultivating markets with standardized products is the way you lay the groundwork for the success of more 'artistic' or 'risky' productions, both by stirring popular interest and by amassing finances.

Now you say, but they still do good music. That is true. But the two media aren't comparable because you cannot produce a 26 episodes anime in a garage. If you look only at what the big labels promote, music has become much more streamlined than it was 25 years ago. There is no place for a thousand ideas in anime in any case, you're get five per year if you're lucky.

I feel like this is a stretch: when's the last time a band produced its best work without decent production? That's pretty rare: even the artists who self-produce successfully do so with the aid of a considerable budget. Not to mention that, in actuality, major labels have always tried to market whatever sells the best. Sometimes, the high-sellers are truly excellent. But this doesn't somehow deprive less commercial acts or concepts of support. The bands that get their starts in the garage and operate underground? They only really start going somewhere when a label picks them up and supports them.


Another point: An American anime cannot be great for the simple reason that there is no such thing as an American anime. Or Korean for that matter. Anime are Japanese cartoons produced for a Japanese audience. And in my heart of hearts I don't really classify Afro Samurai as anime either although that one has at least been produced by a Japanese studio. And although it hasn't been produced for a Japanese audience, it has been produced for an audience familiar with anime.

I'm not saying this because I'm a purist who thinks that any cartoon produced in Japan automatically rules and anything produced somewhere else automatically fails (although I'm of course convinced that Japanese productions are clearly superior on average, otherwise I wouldn't waste my time here). I'm saying that because I wouldn't know how to define an anime otherwise. And when you combine the terms "American anime" and "mainstream" I understand even less what exactly you're talking about. How does what you want to express differ from simply saying the USA should produce better cartoons?

Yes, I can understand your taking issue with this. To me, the term anime has expanded over time, as terms do. Yes, it was a Japanese cognate from English, specifically intended to describe animation in the Japanese tongue. However, from a social standpoint, "anime" has clearly distinct connotations from "cartoon" in the public mind, and therefore the use of one implies specific things the other does not. My use of the term anime invokes, primarily, the use of animation to tell any variety of stories, whereas a "cartoon" has always carried comedic connotations (and fairly specific ones, at that) in the English language--this is because for the first couple centuries of the life of what came to be called 'cartoons', they were strictly used for lampooning things. Is this the strictest possible interpretation of either term? No. But if we're discussing what is essentially a sociological issue, then using terms according to their connotations within a society relevant to the discussion is the proper path.

[Slice of Life]

However, creating and cultivating markets with standardized products is the way you lay the groundwork for the success of more 'artistic' or 'risky' productions, both by stirring popular interest and by amassing finances.

No, Creating and cultivating markets with standardized products is the way you lay the groundwork for selling more standardized products, that is the problem.


I feel like this is a stretch: when's the last time a band produced its best work without decent production?
No, it's simply a fact that producing an anime, even a crappy one is cost intensive. And when you're saying good music can only be produced by Sony or Universial then we have to agree to disagree about what good music is.

Not to mention that, in actuality, major labels have always tried to market whatever sells the best.
It might just be that they gotten better at it. Making the music market turn to the worse.

Yes, I can understand your taking issue with this. To me, the term anime has expanded over time, as terms do.

Aren't you trying to steal a successful brand name for something completely else entirely? Many anime, probably even the majority are comedic. (And many of those that want to be taken serious, really can't). And has every serious Western production always been anime then? I think what you want to call anime has not much to do with what anime is.

I don't think we have a conflict here. You want something you might or might not call anime but which is something rooted in American culture which is different from the Japanese one or my own for that matter. And in this case the cultural barrier will probably prevent the Japanese industry from changing to the worse or bleeding out. It won't have any positive effect either though.

[Nosauz]

Well I would like to point out that cartoons/anime is just not accepted as a medium meant for mainstream, because it still is considered juvenille in the west, and niche in the east, and foreign on the continent of africa. The point is as Slice of Life has pointed out, anime is highly economically intensive, whereas video is not (i've discussed this in my post about successful mainstream tv relating it to reality tv) With such a high intrinsic cost to produce something like anime, the focus group has to be narrowed to ensure profitablility, and lets not even talk about songs, most are manufactured especially with the breaking down the stigma of autotune, it's made manufacturing music. Instead of stars, whats more important is the producer of the song and image and not the talent itself. Clearly the costs are significantly greater because animation requires such a higher bar to enter and stay profitable.

Mainstream implies that it appeals to most people, but as long as a stigma surrounds animation/cartoons as children's entertainment the genre can't move forward, and the thing is because there is an emphasis on "real" and people tend to connect to "real" faces anime/animation/cartoons will always be relegated to a percentage of the mainstream. This is basically saying that infact anime will never breach into mainstream because it is an aquired taste. Even when you speak about DB/DBZ and pokemon those were only mainstream children's shows, whereas adults didn't pay significant attention to those phenomena as much as it influenced children.

[Triple_R]

Well I would like to point out that cartoons/anime is just not accepted as a medium meant for mainstream, because it still is considered juvenille in the west, and niche in the east, and foreign on the continent of africa. The point is as Slice of Life has pointed out, anime is highly economically intensive, whereas video is not (i've discussed this in my post about successful mainstream tv relating it to reality tv) With such a high intrinsic cost to produce something like anime, the focus group has to be narrowed to ensure profitablility, and lets not even talk about songs, most are manufactured especially with the breaking down the stigma of autotune, it's made manufacturing music. Instead of stars, whats more important is the producer of the song and image and not the talent itself. Clearly the costs are significantly greater because animation requires such a higher bar to enter and stay profitable.

Mainstream implies that it appeals to most people, but as long as a stigma surrounds animation/cartoons as children's entertainment the genre can't move forward, and the thing is because there is an emphasis on "real" and people tend to connect to "real" faces anime/animation/cartoons will always be relegated to a percentage of the mainstream. This is basically saying that infact anime will never breach into mainstream because it is an aquired taste. Even when you speak about DB/DBZ and pokemon those were only mainstream children's shows, whereas adults didn't pay significant attention to those phenomena as much as it influenced children.

When I first went to College, I knew a fair number of people there who watched and enjoyed Dragon Ball Z. Many of them were not anime fans, per se... they just liked Dragon Ball Z. Many of them didn't even know what anime, per se, is.

Most people I know in real life are at least vaguely familiar with Dragon Ball Z, and with Sailor Moon, and with Pokemon. I'm not hoping for anime to go mainstream to the degree of Survivor or House... that would be unrealistic.

But simply to get back to those heady days of Dragon Ball Z, Sailor Moon, and Pokemon being pretty dang close to household names even in the west would be nice.


It should be noted that video games helped out DBZ and Pokemon's popularity A LOT. Perhaps more anime video games would be a good thing.

[Ricky Controversy]

No, creating and cultivating markets with standardized products is the way you lay the groundwork for selling more standardized products, that is the problem.

That a portion of the market will be stagnant and mass-produced is inevitable, regardless of how you go about creating something. But it's simple fact that the only way to make innovation possible is to begin from basics. If the heroic epic hadn't been around to serve as the standard form of literature in 16th century Europe, there'd be no context for Cervantes to have written Don Quixote, an entirely disparate and innovative work that presaged the rise of the Western novel.

No, it's simply a fact that producing an anime, even a crappy one is cost intensive.

I never disagreed with this, and it is once again actually part of my point. One of the reasons I say having popularized/mainstream anime is useful is because these can be the cash cows with broad appeal that then give studios and their employees the elbow room to do things they enjoy.


And when you're saying good music can only be produced by Sony or Universial then we have to agree to disagree about what good music is.

When did I ever say this? All I said was that the quality of a band's work tends to jump dramatically when they get picked up by a label. To return this parallel to the topic at hand, great ideas for anime won't ever go anywhere without the support of studios that have the funding to make those ideas a reality...and that funding can most reliably be earned by way of mainstream productions.


It might just be that they gotten better at it. Making the music market turn to the worse.

This is what I don't understand. Why is trying to generate a profit a bad thing inherently? I'm not saying it's laudable to sacrifice artistry for gain, but A) it is understandably necessary and B) it is not even always the case. Again, there are popular works of art/literature/cinema what-have-you that are also very good.

However, this is only a secondary point. The primary one is that anime studios trying their best to be profitable is the status quo, has been, always will be. But even so, wonderful, artistically edifying anime continues to emerge from the studios.


Aren't you trying to steal a successful brand name for something completely else entirely? Many anime, probably even the majority are comedic. (And many of those that want to be taken serious, really can't). And has every serious Western production always been anime then? I think what you want to call anime has not much to do with what anime is.

I'm not denying that many anime are comedic, or that there have been serious animation projects in the Western world. However, in most cases, any discussion of the latter refers to these as 'animation' rather than cartoons. 'Cartoons' very distinctly implies animated comedy of a very forward, obvious, base variety. 'Anime' is not a brand name, but a cognate of the word 'animation', and while it certainly includes comedies every bit as blunt as a typical Western cartoon, those aren't nearly as far-reaching in their relevance to the history of the form, which instead has shown the potential for vibrant and varied storytelling for the majority of its modern history.

The Japanese language appropriated 'anime' from English. I as a linguist see nothing objectionable about English re-appropriating it, frankly.


I don't think we have a conflict here. You want something you might or might not call anime but which is something rooted in American culture which is different from the Japanese one or my own for that matter. And in this case the cultural barrier will probably prevent the Japanese industry from changing to the worse or bleeding out. It won't have any positive effect either though.

I do agree that we're not really opposed to one another on most points, but for whatever reason my reasoning doesn't quite seem to be apparent to you. I don't really know what I can explain more plainly at this point, so I'll just leave it there unless you can help me figure out where the communication breakdown is happening.

[Slice of Life]

If the heroic epic hadn't been around to serve as the standard form of literature in 16th century Europe, there'd be no context for Cervantes to have written Don Quixote, an entirely disparate and innovative work that presaged the rise of the Western novel.
"Entertainment industry" in the 16th century =/= entertainment industry today. Hell, entertainment industry in the 80s =/= entertainment industry today. See below.

When did I ever say this? All I said was that the quality of a band's work tends to jump dramatically when they get picked up by a label.
1. I would deny that. Or at least not agree.
2. If the band does the "wrong" stuff it won't be picked up by Universal. So the question if their quality would improve remains theoretical anyway.
3. You were talking about "decent production". In a reply to me, who was talking about "major labels". So I had to assume that "decent production" == "production by major labels" in your eyes. And "major labels" == "Sony, Universal, ..." and not some small independent label.

This is what I don't understand. Why is trying to generate a profit a bad thing inherently?
Now it's my turn. Where did I ever say that? Especially the "inherently". The problem is not generating profit but maximizing profit at any cost. For the former is suffices to cater a niche, for the latter you have to go for the mainstream and win. Which they do more today than in the 80s. Now it might be that the music industry back in the days just hadn't found the perfect formula yet. There were also more players I suppose. Both would generate more variety as a side effect. Or maybe it was a voluntary decision. Thatcher's and Reagan's laissez-faire ideology was still on the rise back then and CEOs might have decided differently than they do today. Whatever the reason was, the music market has become more uniform.

But back to anime.

I do agree that we're not really opposed to one another on most points, but for whatever reason my reasoning doesn't quite seem to be apparent to you. I don't really know what I can explain more plainly at this point, so I'll just leave it there unless you can help me figure out where the communication breakdown is happening.
I said I don't think we have a conflict here.There was a misunderstanding coming from our different understanding of the word anime. But since we're talking about different and pretty much independent things there is no conflict of interest. But that doesn't mean that we don't disagree in quite a few points.

[GuidoHunter_Toki]

It should be noted that video games helped out DBZ and Pokemon's popularity A LOT. Perhaps more anime video games would be a good thing.

I'd say that the videogames were more helped out by the fact the shows were popular already. Sure the games helped "spread the joy" so to speak, but most animes that have a good library of videogame titles tend to only have so much thanks to the shows already having a heightened popularity. The only anime I've seen have a constant flow of games selling in the U.S. are Naruto and DBZ games. Oh, and of course Pokemon, but in actuality Pokemon the game came before Pokemon the anime.

Anyways the point is that I believe a show still needs a good deal of popularity to sell games and games are not going to necessarily prompt a huge amount of people to watch the anime if they're not watchers of the show themselves.

[brocko]

naw it was more of a parody of super hero high, or w/e that series was called. WHere the clones of histories great people go to high school together. And it's specifically a parody on iconic heroes of american animation.
Actually Drawn Together to me was just taking the piss out of everything it could in general :heh: The character stereotypes did play a large part in the show but it wasn't just limited to that imo. Cultural taboo's, black humour and controversial issues were all over the place in that show.

[Rion Steiner]

I might also blame YouTube and other online video website for making other people watch anime for free instead of leeting them purchase DVDs. Not like all of them will buy DVDs. The same goes with Mangas.

[lubczyk]

I might also blame YouTube and other online video website for making other people watch anime for free instead of leeting them purchase DVDs. Not like all of them will buy DVDs. The same goes with Mangas.

If it wasn't for fansubs, I wouldn't be watching anime, at all!!!

Crunchyroll is the only service I'll consider using and things like iTunes. People like me don't want to buy DVD's, CDs or other physical media anymore. It's just clutter.

[durack]

Hmm...just read this editorial.

http://www.mania.com/editorial-death-anime-dubs_article_118749.html

It certainly seems like that north american anime bubble of late 90s-early 00s has deflated big time.

Honestly, at this point I think we are heading away from "growing acceptance of anime" and not towards it and nothing will change this fact until a) we are out of the world-wide recession and b) we get out of the transition period from physical media to digital distribution.

[Nosauz]

I might also blame YouTube and other online video website for making other people watch anime for free instead of leeting them purchase DVDs. Not like all of them will buy DVDs. The same goes with Mangas.

This is just a lie. The internet birthed the communication between people and actually youtube probably increased the reach of anime. Why? Well the anime industry is very much locked by geographical and national boundaries, but with the internet, information is no longer bound to the terestrial broadcasters, and since many things tend to not even get liscensed in america there would be no way to purchase said merchandise not to mention the fact that during the dvd era, many discs are region locked to prevent people from circumventing the geographical time locks on certain international releases. The point is, the internet exposed more people who have never heard of anime through op vids, anime amvs, clips of shows, discussions about anime then there ever was, the down turn in anime production is that the people exposed were not all potential buyers which the industry had assumed they were. In the end the internet is what continues to sell the otaku lifestyle outside of Japan.

[Triple_R]

In the end the internet is what continues to sell the otaku lifestyle outside of Japan.

While I certainly get the argument of "People aren't buying the DVDs because they can get all the episode content for free on YouTube!", I still think that the internet has helped anime more than it's hurt anime, and that it probably continues to do so to this day.

On another thread, I argued that one thing that helps modern animes a lot is what I call the internet hype machine. As big a Haruhi fan as I am, I truly doubt that The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya would have become as big as it did with out the benefit of the internet hype machine. If Haruhi was a mid-90s anime, it would have still been one of the more popular anime out there... but it wouldn't have hit it quite as big as it did, I think.


Hmm...just read this editorial.

http://www.mania.com/editorial-death-anime-dubs_article_118749.html

It certainly seems like that north american anime bubble of late 90s-early 00s has deflated big time.

Honestly, at this point I think we are heading away from "growing acceptance of anime" and not towards it and nothing will change this fact until a) we are out of the world-wide recession and b) we get out of the transition period from physical media to digital distribution.

I doubt you'll ever see a full transition.

Speaking personally, if I spend significant money on an anime that I like, it's going to be to have a hard physical copy of it. I want the DVD and all the trappings that come with it, at least for the animes that I love the most.


Also, while I am a bit concerned for the future of anime, I wouldn't read too much into the "death of dubbing". Personally, I think that has more to do with fanbase preferences than anything.


Truthfully, the fact that it's taken this long to possibly reach a "death of dubbing" is amazing to me. It startles me to see so many animes get the dub treatment when the vast majority of hardcore anime fans that I've talked to seem to passionately hate dubs. You wouldn't believe how many times I've heard Haruhi's English dub voice insulted on the internet... :heh:


I myself am fairly neutral on the dub vs. sub debate... in fact, if anything, I generally prefer hearing anime dialogue in my own language... but animation studios would have to be totally out of touch with their core foreign fanbase to not be aware of how a huge chunk of that fanbase hates dubs.

I'm amazed that there aren't more anime DVDs sold with out a dub job, and hence at slightly reduced prices (slightly reduced due to the savings made in not having to hire a dub voice actor team). I mean, if you polled your typical group of anime fans ("Would you rather buy this DVD of your favorite anime at $50 and with the English dub, or at $40 and with out the dub?"), I'm inclined to think that a majority would go with the $40 non-dub option. At least that's the impression I get from virtually all dub vs. sub debates.

[Ansalem]

I'm amazed that there aren't more anime DVDs sold with out a dub job, and hence at slightly reduced prices (slightly reduced due to the savings made in not having to hire a dub voice actor team). I mean, if you polled your typical group of anime fans ("Would you rather buy this DVD of your favorite anime at $50 and with the English dub, or at $40 and with out the dub?"), I'm inclined to think that a majority would go with the $40 non-dub option. At least that's the impression I get from virtually all dub vs. sub debates.

The reason that there aren't more of the sub-only DVDs around is, those people who would prefer to buy DVD's for $40 without dubs would still buy them for $50 with subs, and the people who want dubs may not buy the sub-only DVD at all.

[Matrim]

Truthfully, the fact that it's taken this long to possibly reach a "death of dubbing" is amazing to me. It startles me to see so many animes get the dub treatment when the vast majority of hardcore anime fans that I've talked to seem to passionately hate dubs. You wouldn't believe how many times I've heard Haruhi's English dub voice insulted on the internet...

The Internet is not an accurate representation of the market, though. Here is a non-anime example - in the Internet cult shows Star Trek or Buffy the Vampire Slayer are way more popular than your average soap opera or random police procedural show, yet the succssful soap or procedural or "reality" TV show usually have way more viewers than the cult shows and bring in bigger profit. The people who watch dubs and buy DVDs are probably not "hardcore" fans enough to go praise said dubs on blogs or forums.

[durack]

Truthfully, the fact that it's taken this long to possibly reach a "death of dubbing" is amazing to me. It startles me to see so many animes get the dub treatment when the vast majority of hardcore anime fans that I've talked to seem to passionately hate dubs. You wouldn't believe how many times I've heard Haruhi's English dub voice insulted on the internet... :heh:


Sure, hardcore fans despise dubs. Myself, I do not despise dubs, but I never watch them simply because I see no reason to watch them when there is a sub available. However, what we are discussing here is whether anime can become more popular/mainstream/whatever outside Japan and the reality that I think no one can dispute is that people all over the world like to watch stuff in their own language.

My own position - myself I could care less if anime becomes more or less popular in the US. As long as there is a steady supply of stuff I can watch, I don't really care. I do think that it is in our own self-interest to support the creators, so I think that we all should be paying for content, but the content has to be reasonably priced and readily available for rental (since I rarely watch anything more than once, I rarely buy anything, most of my watching these days is either DVR from cable or iTunes rentals).

[Mueti]

The Internet is not an accurate representation of the market, though. Here is a non-anime example - in the Internet cult shows Star Trek or Buffy the Vampire Slayer are way more popular than your average soap opera or random police procedural show, yet the succssful soap or procedural or "reality" TV show usually have way more viewers than the cult shows and bring in bigger profit. The people who watch dubs and buy DVDs are probably not "hardcore" fans enough to go praise said dubs on blogs or forums.

While I wouldn't really disagree, that comparison is not quite accurate either. Since people outside of Japan interested in Anime pretty much have to rely on the internet in some way, I believe it's safe to assume that the internet-demographic of Anime-fans is at the least a way more accurate representation of the market than that of shows airing at prime time in many Western countries.

[bhl88]

I also found subs better (as I'm used to reading super fast). Though I watch both subs and dubs (I like hearing the English voices of both). But if I want to watch as much anime as I can (I go for subs).

[GuidoHunter_Toki]

I usually tend to stick with dubs if I can (thus not to constantly read text). As long as the voices are bearable I'll stick with dubs so I can better pay attention to the actions on screen.

[Edaniel]

For some reason I can't stand dubs. I guess I'm anal about how the sounds match up.

[JustInn14]

I generally watched subtitled anime. I just find it neat to watch the program in it's original language.

I do watch the dubs, if they're well done.

[Bri]

One key issue with dubs is that they delay the release of a show by several months. Most hardcore fans have already seen a show before it appears in dubbed form making dubs more interesting for the casual audience who care less for acces to the latest content.

Dubs do make anime more accesible for those unaccustomed to subs but it depends if your used to subs or not.

Personally it's no issue for me as I grew up in a society where pretty much all foreign content was subbed. I don't miss anything going on. Even today I tend to turn on the subs for the hearing impaired on DVDs when actors speak in english that take a lot of my concentration to understand like Scottish, northern England, Australian and South Eastern US dialects.

Dubbed versions are slower to arrive and more expensive to make, but they are pretty much the niche market that allows the licensing companies to survive on as they can no longer compete with the speed of fansubbers and streaming sites for the latest material and the growing indifference of the public towards physical containers for content.

[Zu Ra]

Prefer anime to be niche and exclusive . Always preferred classes to masses and is also true for anime . Look at the fandoms associated with popular anime shows which air on TV . Sometimes I even had to go to the extent of dissociate with certain anime thanks to the newly induced fans .