View Full Version : To Aru Kagaku no Railgun - Episode 8 Discussion / Poll
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MrTerrorist
2009-11-20, 15:18
Kuroko Kuroko Baka!
Saten is such a good friend.
Uiharu looks cute even without her headband.
Mikoto acting all girlish was making me rofl!
Unfortunately it looks its not July 19th yet (No touma!:() as Mikoto tries to meet some gang who sell Level upper and gets into a fight with them and then meets their boss who happens to be a girl with a Letterman jacket and an earth manipulator too.
Their fight was very exciting which ended with Mikoto causing a thunder strike that blacks out the city but leaving the girl alone. The end was more exciting as we found out the Level upper users are in a coma and we meet a certain striping lady and Saten finds a mysterious web link.
Next week episode looks like is based on the manga involving Sataen, Kuroko and some creepy looking guy.
Lol it's already out and subbed. That was really fast.
I'll watch it tomorrow but from the preview last time it looked really interesting because it seemd like the plot will be finally moving. Or more like it will become more claer since the episodes this far only gave little hints - some of them were pretty obvious though.
Strangely they changed the fami-resu scene quite a lot.
They had to make up another filler character.
Oh well... at least they included some action...
Shinji103
2009-11-20, 16:38
Sooooo........
What the heck???? :confused:
This actually is supposed to be the family restaurant scene with Touma, as this is where Mikoto does her "sweet girl" routine to try and get some info on level upper............but why'd the change it so drastically? I have no problems with them changing stuff but............why no Touma? Why are the punks here different?
Those were some of my initial thoughts anyway, but upon some thinking there might actually be some logic to this chaos. In the original Index anime, the way the "Touma tries to save delinquets from Mikoto" scene was done clearly showed that it was just Mikoto being hit on by some random punks, and then the Railgun manga version of the scene retconned the scene a bit by adding Kuroko and making it look like the scene had some other stuff happeneing. Maybe JC Staff is trying to divide the two events, making this scene in this episode its own seperate scene, then redo-ing the "Touma tries to save delinquets" scene later so it's actually not a retcon of the Index anime they created themselves.
That's the only way I can rationally explain what they did here; otherwise, they basically "butchered" the scene for no reason, and I'd rather think the former than the latter.
Unfortunately, they gave us a "freak of the week" "villain." At least it's better than the travesty that was "eyebrow girl," but I have an innate hatred of "freak of the week" villains due to plot-screwups caused by the aforementioned villain-type in previous series-es. But like I said, at least the villain didn't keel over without a fight.
So we have (limited to serious points and putting aside any fan-ravings such as Mikoto's moe-mode :heh:)
Pluses:
- Some minor/mediocre plot advancement
- We actually get an opponent that can put up a pretty good fight
Minuses:
- Possibly a "butchering" of another nice Touma scene (hopefully they're just doing that to avoid retconning their own Index anime, as explained above)
- "Freak of the week" opponent. Ugh.
On the super-bright-side, we get the second of the three manga chapters that I've been dying to see animated next episode. :D Please don't mess around with this one and just leave it be, JC Staff. >.> The preview shots look promising in that regard, though. :)
7/10
Miyuki-ism
2009-11-20, 17:43
Maybe this is a different even from the Touma restaurant scene.
The brain freeze scene was hilarious, and also in the restaurant with Mikoto's moe routine and Kuroko's head-banging. XD
Shinji103
2009-11-20, 17:48
Maybe this is a different even from the Touma restaurant scene.No, it's the same one. In the Railgun manga, all this is the same with the exception of different thugs being there and Touma showing up.
Manga-speaking, of course. As I said, this may be JC Staff "fixing" up the "retcon" in the Railgun manga.
serenade_beta
2009-11-20, 18:19
Oh noessss! I thought we would get some preaching scene by that guy who always seems to be in the right/wrong place, but instead, he got replaced by some throw-away(?) anime-original character.
...
GJ, JC
Another great episode, with a hilarious scene of Mikoto acting "cute" and Kuroko killing herself over it while Ruiko and Kazari has a low-level (in a power-meaning) conversation.
Ahhhh....................... Ruiko... :T_T:
Speaking of Kazari... Hah!? She took off those flowers?! Dun dun dun...!
NOOOOOOOO
Touma didn't come to the restaurant!
NOOOOOOOO
Touma didn't come to the restaurant!
Why???? I was looking forward to that!
Those were some of my initial thoughts anyway, but upon some thinking there might actually be some logic to this chaos. In the original Index anime, the way the "Touma tries to save delinquets from Mikoto" scene was done clearly showed that it was just Mikoto being hit on by some random punks, and then the Railgun manga version of the scene retconned the scene a bit by adding Kuroko and making it look like the scene had some other stuff happeneing. Maybe JC Staff is trying to divide the two events, making this scene in this episode its own seperate scene, then redo-ing the "Touma tries to save delinquets" scene later so it's actually not a retcon of the Index anime they created themselves.
On the other hand, the blackout is a fairly important after-effect of this scene, and they left that part in. Either they have her create another blackout later which would feel kind of silly or they're just ignoring the fact that these two series are supposed to be connected. Personally, I feel like retconning the blackout right now is more egregious than the original retcon of what was going on in the restaurants, which always felt more clever than anything else.
Other than that though, a decent episode. I like the fact that the plot's moving forward. And the fight scene was pretty cool too. I like the image of her walking down the wall with the electricity. It was cool enough to feel powerful yet clumsy enough to feel authentic, in a certain way.
I agree with Shinji - they really "butchered" the scene for no reason. Or in other words they cut the link between Index and Railgun for no reason at all.
It was sad to skip that great moment but I guess we can't get everything - at leas we got the moe Misaka scene :heh: And I'm not really sure if this is the place to complain for inconsistencies witht he manga
About the episode and events in it. In short:
We got some good plot development - now we know that thre is such a thing as a level upper.
We also saw that the people that used the level upper are now in some kind of coma but are alive and ok.
And yet again we saw Saten and her infiriority complex developing really fast especially in the first and last minutes of the episode. This time at least Uiharu tried to cheer her up even if she didn't do her best.
Also Saten found a "secret" (yeah was that really a secret link with half the title changing color :heh: ) to what seemed to be the level upper.
The "bad guy" was again sort of a joke like the eybrow girl but a bit more serious this time around. Nothing much but we gat to see Biri-biri walk on walls :heh: And if they could learn what they wanted by beating them up (like what happened in the) end why didn't Kuroko just arest the gang leader or even the members at the resturant and question them? That didn't really make sense and leaving the leader staring at the big hole in front of her was also strange. So did they get their info in the end? If they did wouldn't they know all about the level upper way too early (it's only the 8th episode) since learning all about it in the first episode that they mention it not as a urban legend but as a real thing is wierd considering how slowly things were going until now.
The preview - if they do it right it will be really great. I really hope the don't go all original on us again for no real reson. There seemed to be a lot going on during the next episode so maybe it will take more than one episode to cover everything. That would make the events in the anime feel more connected since with this episode everything that happened start to slowly come together and a clifhanger would be a refreshing thing to see in here.
I believe the next part has a lot of potential for bot character development, action and there's even room for original stuff that can be added without disrupting the flow of the story.
Overall it was a nice entertaining episode.
Honestly I think its possible we may go back to the restaurant later to see the same scene that was in Index anime? At least that's what I'm hoping :(
Eater of All
2009-11-20, 20:41
Looks like things are sucking pretty badly for Saten. Going to Academy City all pumped up about her ability only to get the label of Level Zero like that will definitely make one feel pretty despondent. At least she can confide in Uiharu for now.
As for the episode itself, I guess it was pretty entertaining. Things are starting to get interesting as it seems the Level Upper might have some nasty side effects, not just all fun and game. Uncovering the whole mystery behind it (including the technobabble; love them) is going to be a crazy ride.
Also, I didn't even notice Touma was supposed to be in the restaurant until people pointed it out. :eyebrow: I'm sure it would've been a nice treat if they'd made the connection, but to be honest I don't really care either way now that it's come to past....
ReddyRedWolf
2009-11-20, 21:35
Did Kuroko just knock herself out?
Wilfriback
2009-11-20, 21:44
Looks like some users are missing Touma:uhoh: he got the third place in the Oricon Rant, Why I wonder? :rolleyes:
Shinji103
2009-11-20, 22:02
Also, I didn't even notice Touma was supposed to be in the restaurant until people pointed it out. :eyebrow: I'm sure it would've been a nice treat if they'd made the connection, but to be honest I don't really care either way now that it's come to past....It's not so much Touma didn't appear, as much as this episode is supposed to be something of a linking point between the Index and Railgun storlyines. It should have marked the beginning scene of episode 1 of Index, but then they changed it for some reason, which I'm hoping is because they want to change the "retcon" of the manga version of this by having Touma's family restaurant scene later, thereby making the link without the "retcon" in the Railgun manga. But as Clarste said, that would feel a bit odd to have two seperate family-restaurant-thug scenes followed by widespread blackout lightning bolts.....
ReddyRedWolf
2009-11-20, 22:06
Is it just me or did Kuroko offhandly mention a pyrokinetic incident. Stiyl anybody?
Which means by this time Index is in the city.
It's not so much Touma didn't appear, as much as this episode is supposed to be something of a linking point between the Index and Railgun storlyines. It should have marked the beginning scene of episode 1 of Index, but then they changed it for some reason, which I'm hoping is because they want to change the "retcon" of the manga version of this.
Wouldn't that mean they'd need to explain 2 blackouts then? Sure its possible, but the 'retcon' in the manga wasn't that huge I think to warrant such a change to it.
Is it just me or did Kuroko offhandly mention a pyrokinetic incident. Stiyl anybody?
Which means by this time Index is in the city.
She's talking about the first episode. Stiyl wouldn't be registered as any level of psychic anyway, so it wouldn't make any sense for her to mention him in that context, even if she did know about him, which she almost certainly doesn't. So no.
Shinji103
2009-11-20, 22:15
Wouldn't that mean they'd need to explain 2 blackouts then? Sure its possible, but the 'retcon' in the manga wasn't that huge I think to warrant such a change to it.Yeah, as I added a few seconds later in an edit, it would be a bit odd as Clarste pointed out. :heh: But not doing so would mean JC Staff really has indeed decided to disregard the Index-Railgun connection, which sounds far more ridiculous especially since there's no reason for them to ignore the connection to one of their own works.
Or they made one massive, huge booboo and did all the work adding new stuff to this episode, only to realize after the fact "OH SHI-! This is where the Index story is supposed to start!"
I think the idea of them fixing the "retcon" is more plausible. :heh:
Wouldn't that mean they'd need to explain 2 blackouts then? Sure its possible, but the 'retcon' in the manga wasn't that huge I think to warrant such a change to it.She's talking about the first episode. Stiyl wouldn't be registered as any level of psychic anyway, so it wouldn't make any sense for her to mention him in that context, even if she did know about him, which she almost certainly doesn't. So no.As Clarste said, she's talking about the episode 1 guy most likely. It would mean one MASSIVE retcon and messing-up of the chronolgy for Kuroko to know anything about Stiyl or magicians, especially at this point. Up to the end of the Index anime (I'm a bit behind on catching up with the novels >.> ), Kuroko, nor Mikoto, really know anything about magic or magicians, let alone Stiyl in particular.
KaneDragon
2009-11-20, 22:18
arg no touma saving the day... arg... :frustrated:
http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/4198/snapshot20091120214956.th.jpg (http://img193.imageshack.us/i/snapshot20091120214956.jpg/)
Random heavy-handed hints. :rolleyes:
http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/5328/snapshot20091120220824.th.jpg (http://img94.imageshack.us/i/snapshot20091120220824.jpg/)
Nothing more heartwarming than lesbian rape between friends. :)
http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/4043/snapshot20091120220936.th.jpg (http://img94.imageshack.us/i/snapshot20091120220936.jpg/)
Am I just not taking Juddgemento seriously enough? Because middle-school Kuroko barging into a hospital and demanding the facts just feels awkwardly silly. :rolleyes:
Shinji103
2009-11-20, 22:21
http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/4043/snapshot20091120220936.th.jpg (http://img94.imageshack.us/i/snapshot20091120220936.jpg/)
Am I just not taking Judgemento seriously enough? Because middle-school Kuroko barging into a hospital and demanding the facts just feels awkwardly silly. :rolleyes:I think it's just the silly badge-showing pose. My eyes keep rolling into the back of my head when I see that. :heh:
KaneDragon
2009-11-20, 22:30
I think it's just the silly badge-showing pose. My eyes keep rolling into the back of my head when I see that. :heh:
Steal Uiharu's armband. Again.
Question random doctors.
?????
Profit!
Jealousy Kuroko and shy Mikoto are super cute. Why are they so awesome :heh:
Well, I'm glad they seem to be moving toward something of a plot arch now. I was really just holding on for episode 4-style Mikoto awesomeness.
typhonsentra
2009-11-21, 00:22
You know I'm getting really annoyed with the constant pointless Shroedinger's Cat name drops in this series.
Name drops? They're referencing the theory. It'd be odd if they didn't mention it.
typhonsentra
2009-11-21, 01:15
I understand the actual theory is probably more complicated than the way they describe it in the show, but any time they've used it it's simply to say little more than "You can't confirm a theory without seeing it for yourself, before you do anything's possible."
It just comes across as pretentious and a little silly to me.
It's not about confirming theories, it's about reality conforming to the observer. Which is exactly what they're talking about. The whole point of the cat thought experiment is that the cat is both alive and dead at the same time, and looking inside the box makes it one or the other. Reality changes based on how we perceive it. Incidentally, the experiment was created in order to show how absurd and nonsensical this is, but I think it works well as an allusion in a setting where psychics do work exactly that way.
Marcus H.
2009-11-21, 01:48
Hmm, I don't think this ep is the episode that would connect Railgun and Index from what I'm seeing.
EDIT: ...Okay, just checked out the manga, and there's a lot of original stuff on the anime. o.o I wonder what's on J.C.Staff's minds right now?
SaintessHeart
2009-11-21, 02:33
Railgun + play-acting as an airhead = Moe!
So what is the cuteness level of biribiri this episode?
OVER 9000!!!!
Primary Consult
2009-11-21, 02:33
Gave this 9/10. Reason being, the retcon in the manga was really annoying, and this avoids the problem entirely. This only affects what I would consider a minor point, whether the blackout that caused Touma's food to spoil was the same as the blackout that saved Uiharu from Saten's molestation :).
I'd rather the two mediums diverge than have the Railgun anime retcon the Index anime in the same way the Manga did, which was awkward and to me hurt the connection between the two stories more than it helped.
Shinji103
2009-11-21, 03:51
Gave this 9/10. Reason being, the retcon in the manga was really annoying, and this avoids the problem entirely. This only affects what I would consider a minor point, whether the blackout that caused Touma's food to spoil was the same as the blackout that saved Uiharu from Saten's molestation :).
I'd rather the two mediums diverge than have the Railgun anime retcon the Index anime in the same way the Manga did, which was awkward and to me hurt the connection between the two stories more than it helped.Actually, you seem to not realize that avoiding the problem entirely in this case, results in a much larger retcon than in the Railgun manga. The Railgun manga just added some depth towards Railgun's story in its version of the scene. By "avoiding the problem entirely" here, JC Staff has nullified the entire opening of the Index anime. It doesn't happen now. That's a far larger retcon than the Railgun manga did. Unless they are in fact going to come back to it later, and I really can't see any point at all in doing what they did here otherwise.
Actually, you seem to not realize that avoiding the problem entirely in this case, results in a much larger retcon than in the Railgun manga. The Railgun manga just added some depth towards Railgun's story in its version of the scene. By "avoiding the problem entirely" here, JC Staff has nullified the entire opening of the Index anime. It doesn't happen now. That's a far larger retcon than the Railgun manga did. Unless they are in fact going to come back to it later, and I really can't see any point at all in doing what they did here otherwise.
And not only that. Actually the whole scene didn't make sense at all. If you think about it there was absolutely no point in Misaka acting the way she did if they could just beat them up and get the same result. Why would she act all cute if there's no need especially considering her character? That's why the original scene made a lot more sense not to mention it was one of the few clear connections to the Index plot.
Also here they should have learned all they wanted to know about the level upper which as I said before also wouldn't make sense
MaxMaximilianMaximus
2009-11-21, 05:33
The part where Mikoto acting moe is better in the manga, IMO. (at least I like Kuroko's expression in the manga)
Will wait to see the fight scene in the next episode.
I really liked this episode, inconsistancies aside, it had it's funny moments, its deep moments and its Moe moments.
However, were the hell was Touma. it was a good episode, but i was really shocked that they decided to take him out of the equation.
MrTerrorist
2009-11-21, 06:42
Where's Touma!? He was suppose to be in this episode!? What went wrong!!??
ReddyRedWolf
2009-11-21, 08:57
Well to be fair in the Index episode 1 flashback Mikoto was seated. In the novel Touma did not describe whether Mikoto was standing or taking a seat.
Meaning we'll get a more consistent restaurant meeting.
To listen or not to listen,that is the question!
Hmm, mixed feelings about this episode. One one hand, I was looking forward to more Touma/Mikoto bickering, on the other hand this does fix the rather large contradiction the manga threw in. After all, in the Railgun manga this scene was so grossly different from its index variant it was even hard to call it the same scene to begin with. Not to mention the manga always left me wondering 'where the hell did Kuroko go during all this?' when Touma screwed up, so that plothole was fixed up as well.
So this was more a fix than a screwup, really. Right now the two stories in the anime flow together better than they do in the manga.
Actually, you seem to not realize that avoiding the problem entirely in this case, results in a much larger retcon than in the Railgun manga. The Railgun manga just added some depth towards Railgun's story in its version of the scene. By "avoiding the problem entirely" here, JC Staff has nullified the entire opening of the Index anime. It doesn't happen now. That's a far larger retcon than the Railgun manga did. Unless they are in fact going to come back to it later, and I really can't see any point at all in doing what they did here otherwise.
How so? It's very possible Mikoto went to that restaurant again later on. In fact, the Index opening has been left more intact than if we were to follow the manga. If you recall, Mikoto was simply visiting an being hit on in the Index version, not trying to gather information.
After all, in the Railgun manga this scene was so grossly different from its index variant it was even hard to call it the same scene to begin with.
I wouldn't say that it contradicts the Index novels... actually, the bridge scene in Railgun seemed moer faithful then both Index anime and manga.
Primary Consult
2009-11-21, 09:19
Actually, you seem to not realize that avoiding the problem entirely in this case, results in a much larger retcon than in the Railgun manga. The Railgun manga just added some depth towards Railgun's story in its version of the scene. By "avoiding the problem entirely" here, JC Staff has nullified the entire opening of the Index anime. It doesn't happen now. That's a far larger retcon than the Railgun manga did. Unless they are in fact going to come back to it later, and I really can't see any point at all in doing what they did here otherwise.
Eh? I don't think the scene from Index "doesn't happen at all", it just happened... well, only on the Index anime. They just didn't bother to re-show it.
Admittedly, it was the event which definitively tied the two series together at a specific point in time, but this alteration does not preclude them from doing the same thing in a much smaller way (such as the shorter scenes with Mikoto/Kuroko in the first few Index episodes), which would not introduce inconsistencies between the two shows.
In other words, someone who watched index and then watched this (with no manga knowledge) would not see anything wrong thus far, so it is not a retcon.
And not only that. Actually the whole scene didn't make sense at all. If you think about it there was absolutely no point in Misaka acting the way she did if they could just beat them up and get the same result. Why would she act all cute if there's no need especially considering her character? That's why the original scene made a lot more sense not to mention it was one of the few clear connections to the Index plot.
Also here they should have learned all they wanted to know about the level upper which as I said before also wouldn't make sense
Well, onee-san person prevented Mikoto from getting any info out of the thugs, and once Kuroko warned her about the blackout she fled. She never got to the information extracting portion of the beating.
This ends with everyone in pretty much the same positions and knowledge as re-showing the bridge scene would have, except for Touma's knowledge of Railgun events, and 100% of that was retcon...
However, they do need to address the tying of the two timelines together somehow, so there should be a Touma scene again soon. And unless it is done really well, there will still be a subtle inconsistency. But nowhere near as inconsistent as retelling the bridge meeting scene with different lines would have been, since that also Had mention of the Imoutos as well, which would have been better introduced as a scene in its own right rather than an off-hand comment from Mikoto to Touma.
I wouldn't say that it contradicts the Index novels... actually, the bridge scene in Railgun seemed moer faithful then both Index anime and manga.
In the Railgun manga he blocked Mikoto's Railgun, rather than it being shot past him. How is that more faithful? Not to mention the novel makes no mention whatsoever about Mikoto wanting info out of them...
Seriously, while it was a nice try to link the two events together, the manga scene is just filled with inconsistencies. By changing it, the anime removed these inconsistencies, allowing the two anime to flow better alongside one another without Railgun contradicting Index.
In other words, someone who watched index and then watched this (with no manga knowledge) would not see anything wrong thus far, so it is not a retcon.
THIS! Being someone who has not read the manga or light novel, has been watching this and started Index, I indeed see no inconsistency. They seem to be two unrelated scenes from the view of someone of one not using the manga/novel source material, which seems to be plaguing the discussion of the show, particularly this episode.
Hmm, mixed feelings about this episode. One one hand, I was looking forward to more Touma/Mikoto bickering, on the other hand this does fix the rather large contradiction the manga threw in. After all, in the Railgun manga this scene was so grossly different from its index variant it was even hard to call it the same scene to begin with. Not to mention the manga always left me wondering 'where the hell did Kuroko go during all this?' when Touma screwed up, so that plothole was fixed up as well.
So this was more a fix than a screwup, really. Right now the two stories in the anime flow together better than they do in the manga.
How so? It's very possible Mikoto went to that restaurant again later on. In fact, the Index opening has been left more intact than if we were to follow the manga. If you recall, Mikoto was simply visiting an being hit on in the Index version, not trying to gather information.
I have to disagree with you on this one. Right now the two stories don't seem to flow with each other at all. At this point there is not even one moment that says that the events happen almost in the same time and are connected. You could say that right now it's an altarnete story that has nothing to do with Index.
The manga never trew a contracdiction in since in Index we only know that those guys were hiting on Misaka and that's according to Touma. And if you don't know what they were talking about (he didn't) it was quite natural to think that and it made sense. I really can't see any major differences between the scene in Index and Railgun manga especially since there was only a brief retrospect in Index so we didn't really get the whole picture.
Only form the episode there are some really strange things going on.
Kuroko not doing anything also made sense since Misaka was supposed to be undercover and act cute to get the info. And here's where the big plot hole in this episode is. It made the act by Misaka pointless (since she apperantly would have gotten the same result by beating them up from the start) and Kuroko not doing anything wierd.
Where was she when Misaka started fighting and why didn't she jump right in since she was there? Why did they leave dangerous criminals alone just sitting there? They didn't take them in so they should have gotten what they wanted right? So they know all about the level upper, how to use it and where to find it. So there's no real reason to go back to that resturan later.
With this I think it pretty much destroyed the connection between the two stories and created a plot hole.
Yes if you're only watching Railgun and ahven't watched Index at all this wouldn't bother you at all and that's why the episode was pretty good.
The manga never threw in a contradiction? How about the entire bridge scene? Or the fact that Kuroko seemed to vanish without a trace during the restaurant scene? Not to mention that if we assume the Railgun manga is how things occured, Kuroko would already know of Touma and his ability, aving watched their fight on the bridge. Yet she knew nothing about him when they met shortly before the Sisters arc in Index. Or the fact that in the restaurant scene Mikoto was A: sitting and B: being hit on (as you can clearly see what they're talking about in the anime, and it's not the level upper).
On the flipside, what contradictions has the Railgun anime thrown into the Index anime? So far I can think of none, so there is no reason to assume the Railgun anime is an alternative story, whereas the Railgun manga clearly is.
Changing this scene, no matter how much I would have prefered the manga version, fixed a lot of glaring plotholes in the Railgun/Index connection.
Great Kuroko fail reactions!! Hard skull, she has. And the panting during the restaurant scene, makes it funnier. Could have been enhanced with pool of blood around fallen Kuroko, but its fine as it is. I was expecting to see Touma, honestly though.
Mikoto sticking to the wall, reminds me of that Infamous game, using electricity to stick around.
DRAGUN H.E.X.
2009-11-21, 10:48
haven't watched ep 8 yet,
cuz i'm busy right now, i'll watch & give my comments later during the freetime
Best part :
Mikoto who plays the comedy , she was so cute .
Mikuru have a tough head .
Well she end up sleeping on the table .
The manga never threw in a contradiction? How about the entire bridge scene? Or the fact that Kuroko seemed to vanish without a trace during the restaurant scene? Or the fact that in the restaurant scene Mikoto was A: sitting and B: being hit on (as you can clearly see what they're talking about in the anime, and it's not the level upper).
1. Kuroko vanishing in restaurant has nothing to do with contradicting Index.
As far as plotholes go, she didn't bother to follow as she already knew that Mikoto would electrify those guys anyway and it it not a good idea for Judgment to use torture to get the info out of them (in next chapter, she was blackmailing)
2. Besides few changes in dialogue (only changing important things (things that effect something) said in the dialogue can be called contradiction) on the Bridge and the fact that Touma blocked the Railgun (tough in novel it is said that he can do that, such scene didn't happen so some theorists use that for their purposes). Following every scene word-for-word is not required from an adaptation yet alone from a spin-off made by different author.
Index Manga turning that scene into their first meeting and cutting whole arcs is far more unfaithful and that one is an adaptation which is supposed to be faithful. Anime making it look like their first meeting thus guaranteeing confusion in future is also like a contradiction for some people (still tough, anime is faithful enough in this part)
3. Mikoto was sitting in the anime. In novels, it is only mentioned that Touma saw her with drunk delinquents and was attempting to save them from her but then some of them got out of bathroom (he even mentions that he thought it was a privilege for women). In Railgun, she was hanging with drunk delinquents, Touma tried to save her and some guys got out of bathroom and then he commented on how that was a privilege for women. Thus I don't see a contradiction is restaurant
4. Touma just saw them hanging with her and presumed that they were hitting on her (and they were kinda hitting on her in Railgun as well)
Also, Railgun manga is a spin-off to Index novels so it can't threw contradictions into Index anime. With thats said, I agree that Railgun anime must take care to not contradict Index anime. However, right now we don't know if it will contradict with it or not. Railgun anime, which has a habit of changing a lot of stuff, may end up being far more contradictory then original Railgun storyline would have been.
Also, it is not hard to make Mikoto angrily sit at some caffe, deliquents appearing to annoy her and Touma coming to help thus making a similar scene. However, it may have a filler feeling and we still don't know if we will even get that scene.
this episode definitely threw in an inconsistancy with the lack of bridge scene, but hopefully that may be fixed later. but only to those who have read the manga. Now that I think about it, has there ever been a mention of the date in the anime?
If you go by the novel, apart from the railgun, the manga is quite consistant. yeah, there are differences, but they still follow the same idea.
about Kuroko, to be honest I always thought the reason she didn't chase after Misaka and Touma in the manga was that she was still reeling from Misaka being uber-moe, and by the time she snapped out of it it was all over. Lol.
tsunade666
2009-11-21, 11:36
hmmm
I give it either 8 or 9.
Because they remove the scene with touma.
This event should occur july 19. Both in the manga and the novel are the same its just
in the manga theirs detailed with it because.... though not sure if its from vol 8 or something.
But the part of the restaurant is the prolonged of the 1st volume of index. Where touma try to barge in a conversation of a drunkards and biribiri. He thought he should help..... the gangsters not biribiri. Because he knows who is the girl their hitting on. Then he run the the gangster follows him. Its like the first episode of index where he ended up in the bridge.
The fact that he recognized biribiri at first glance is because they already meet before. Well their first meet up is like this one though. In previews episode where biribiri first witness touma blocking it but and then in the bridge where mikoto blabbering about touma being the disaster from all those 2.3 M population and all.....
But the end part the manga and the index anime are consistent to others but the railgun
anime is different. They change that scene though the others are still the same..... Well the only reason I can think of is because they already showed in the index anime and they just don't like to repeat it. Well repeating scenes is bad specially if its different animes.
And let's face it. This one is railgun and that is index. Though they run side by side in the novel and in the manga they can't to it exactly in the anime or it will ruin them. No one wants to see a scene that's been shown before already.
1. Kuroko vanishing in restaurant has nothing to do with contradicting Index.
It does, because that would have been the first time Kuroko would have seen Touma, whereas the first time she actually did was shortly before the Sisters arc.
2. Besides few changes in dialogue (only changing important things (things that effect something) said in the dialogue can be called contradiction) on the Bridge and the fact that Touma blocked the Railgun (tough in novel it is said that he can do that, such scene didn't happen so some theorists use that for their purposes). Following every scene word-for-word is not required from an adaptation yet alone from a spin-off made by different author.
Index Manga turning that scene into their first meeting and cutting whole arcs is far more unfaithful and that one is an adaptation which is supposed to be faithful. Anime making it look like their first meeting thus guaranteeing confusion in future is also like a contradiction for some people (still tough, anime is faithful enough in this part)
It made the entire content and meaning of the two scenes different. In Index, she was merely upset at Touma for trying to come to her rescue, in the Railgun manga, she was pissed at him for screwing up her mission. This is a very blatant contradiction.
And yes, the manga also throws in a contradiction, but that does not change that the Railgun anime fixed the contradiction it's manga counterpart threw in.
3. Mikoto was sitting in the anime. In novels, it is only mentioned that Touma saw her with drunk delinquents and was attempting to save them from her but then some of them got out of bathroom (he even mentions that he thought it was a privilege for women). In Railgun, she was hanging with drunk delinquents, Touma tried to save her and some guys got out of bathroom and then he commented on how that was a privilege for women. Thus I don't see a contradiction is restaurant
Lack of Kuroko, lack of a mission, lack of any mention of the Level Upper, oh and the guys hitting on Mikoto in Index were level 0. The guys in Railgun Level 2.
Also, Railgun manga is a spin-off to Index novels so it can't threw contradictions into Index anime. With thats said, I agree that Railgun anime must take care to not contradict Index anime. However, right now we don't know if it will contradict with it or not. Railgun anime, which has a habit of changing a lot of stuff, may end up being far more contradictory then original Railgun storyline would have been.
True, we don't know whether it will throw in more contradictions eventually, but my point is that this particular scene fixed plotholes and contradictions from the manga, and though the lack of Touma is disappointing, from an objective point of view this scene is overall an improvement over it's counterpart.
I understand the disappointment, I'm disappointed at the scrapping of Touma as well, however I'm somewhat irked at people immediately declaring this a 'pointless' change.
It does, because that would have been the first time Kuroko would have seen Touma, whereas the first time she actually did was shortly before the Sisters arc.
Did she even see him? She seemed to just be listening... if we ignore the unconscious theory.
Also, even if she saw him doesn't mean that anything would be changed. The scene where they met one another were formal introduction and Kuroko teasing Mikoto. All would be the same even if she saw him in restaurant.
It made the entire content and meaning of the two scenes different. In Index, she was merely upset at Touma for trying to come to her rescue, in the Railgun manga, she was pissed at him for screwing up her mission. This is a very blatant contradiction.
We don't know at what she was upset in Index. As far as we know, she might have been upset because she made a bet with Uiharu's mother's sister's daughter's roomate about how long would she be able to hang around with those delinquents. After all, we follow Touma there, not her and as far as he is concerned, her being pissed off is just preparation for her to start going biri-biri.
Lack of Kuroko, lack of a mission, lack of any mention of the Level Upper, oh and the guys hitting on Mikoto in Index were level 0. The guys in Railgun Level 2.
1. Touma could not see Kuroko even in Railgun because she was hiding
2. Touma doesn't know anything about a mission in both Index or Railgun
3. Touma never heard word Level-Upper in Railgun either. He just saw from afar Mikoto with Deliquents and thoguht she was molested by them
4. Mikoto is the only one who knows that they are Lv2 now. Touma in Railgun would also believe that they were 0's
Do remember that teh scene happens from Touma's eyes, not Mikoto's. As far as he is concerned, there was no Kuroko, no Level-Upper and no delinquents who's level he was 100% to know
And yes, the manga also throws in a contradiction, but that does not change that the Railgun anime fixed the contradiction it's manga counterpart threw in.
We don't know that yet. The Railgun aniem has enough time to screw it all up. And with Railgun anime's liking to change stuff, it is very easy that the opposite might happen. Not to mention that the author of Index Novels is a part of Railgun Manga stuff so the manga at least has his surveillance and approval.
I understand the disappointment, I'm disappointed at the scrapping of Touma as well, however I'm somewhat irked at people immediately declaring this a 'pointless' change.
Hey, don't get me wrong: I still liked the episode and am still optimistic that Railgun anime will give me something in return.
*Opens mouth to continue, then thinks it over*
Bah, forget it. I grow tired of defending the changes the anime makes.
Bah, forget it. I grow tired of defending the changes the anime makes.
We were talking about anime? I thought we were talking about manga and contradictions, not the anime itself. In other words, I was just protecting the manga. Thats how our debate started: I said that Railgun was actually quite faithful and you replied back with rejecting that statement.
The only "attacks" on anime that I made is reminding that there is no guarantee that they will not screw up and mentioned that I am still quite optimistic and NOT so disappointed. Thats all there is to it. I myself am NOT in Anime-attacking bunch if thats what you thought.
This is the anime thread, of course we were talking about the anime. :p Which is, in turn, what I was doing, comparing the anime to the manga and noting the changes were overall improvements from a purely objective point of view.
Though I should apologize, I phrases my last post rather offensively even though I meant it in a more broader sense. I should stop comparing the manga to the anime.
Shinji103
2009-11-21, 16:07
How so? It's very possible Mikoto went to that restaurant again later on. In fact, the Index opening has been left more intact than if we were to follow the manga. If you recall, Mikoto was simply visiting an being hit on in the Index version, not trying to gather information.You just repeated what I said earlier, lol; I said way back on page one that it's possible they're trying to "fix" the scene, just as you said above, and that it's possible they're going to go back to Mikoto going to a family restaurant later on, and redo that scene with Touma coming in to save some delinquents hitting on her later in the Railgun story. It's just that at the moment, JC Staff has for some odd reason decided to eliminate that from the scene the manga made it as. Either way, unless we do go back to it, JC Staff has made one of the biggest inconsistencies I've seen in any sequel/sidestory relations I've seen in a long time. And my biggest problem right now is "why?" I just find this whole thing dumb, even if they do address the retcon with a Touma-saving-delinquets scene later on.
I don't suppose anybody knows of any online interviews with JC Staff asking what this was about? Because we can't be the only ones who noticed this. I guess either we'd have to wait for the next issue of Newtype/Animedia/etc. (at the earliest) or the DVDs for that.
Eh? I don't think the scene from Index "doesn't happen at all", it just happened... well, only on the Index anime. They just didn't bother to re-show it.
Admittedly, it was the event which definitively tied the two series together at a specific point in time, but this alteration does not preclude them from doing the same thing in a much smaller way (such as the shorter scenes with Mikoto/Kuroko in the first few Index episodes), which would not introduce inconsistencies between the two shows.
In other words, someone who watched index and then watched this (with no manga knowledge) would not see anything wrong thus far, so it is not a retcon.Well that's what I'm saying, they could come back to it later. But as far as the anime goes at this moment, Railgun has nullified the opening to Index. If they do come back to it, they'll have nullified the nullification (:heh:), but as of this moment they haven't done that (and really, why did they do this in the first place?), and it'll feel odd to have basically a repeatr of this same event in another episode.
But the manga exists, and people who watched the anime and read the manga would know it's a retcon. You can't just dismiss directly related material on a whim just to better explain something. :heh: It's still a retcon until they address it, at least.
LockeManuel
2009-11-21, 16:10
Well to be fair in the Index episode 1 flashback Mikoto was seated. In the novel Touma did not describe whether Mikoto was standing or taking a seat.
Word of God "said" it in the manga :D
The proof (http://www.onemanga.com/To_Aru_Majutsu_no_Index/1/16/)
Word of God "said" it in the manga :D
The proof (http://www.onemanga.com/To_Aru_Majutsu_no_Index/1/16/)
Index manga is very unfaithful to the original source so I am not sure how much credibility it has there.
*rubs temples* I am such a glutton for punishment.
You just repeated what I said earlier, lol; I'm saying it's possible they're going to go back to Mikoto going to a family restaurant later on, and redo that scene with Touma coming in to save some delinquents hitting on her later in the Railgun story. It's just that at the moment, JC Staff has for some odd reason decided to eliminate that from the scene the manga made it as. Either way, unless we do go back to it, JC Staff has made one of the biggest inconsistencies I've seen in any sequel/sidestory relations I've seen in a long time. And my biggest problem right now is "why?" I just find this whole thing dumb, even if they do address the retcon with a Touma-saving-delinquets scene later on.
I don't suppose anybody knows of any online interviews with JC Staff asking what this was about? Because we can't be the only ones who noticed this. I guess either we'd have to wait for the next issue of Newtype/Animedia/etc. (at the earliest) or the DVDs for that.
I'll answer that question with a question: Why would they need to show that scene in Railgun at all? We already know it happens, after all we've seen (or will see, if you started with Railgun) it happen in Index. Removing the scene does not introduce an inconsistency. In fact, if you've read my debate with Nayrael, it removes several inconsistencies.
Well that's what I'm saying, they could come back to it later. But as far as the anime goes at this moment, Railgun has nullified the opening to Index.
Could you explain to me why this scene playing out differently has nullified the Index opening? This part I don't get. Just because it doesn't happen in this episode doesn't mean the event in Index is nullified at all. It just means the event in Index happened at a later -or possibly earlier- time.
But the manga exists, and people who watched the anime and read the manga would know it's a retcon. You can't just dismiss directly related material on a whim just to better explain something. :heh: It's still a retcon until they address it, at least.
Nor can you dismiss the fact that the manga event itself already played out differently than the Index version in the first place, yet you happily seem to do this.
Why?
Shinji103
2009-11-21, 16:22
Word of God "said" it in the manga :D
The proof (http://www.onemanga.com/To_Aru_Majutsu_no_Index/1/16/)Kinda what Nayrael said, sort of. The Index manga skips entire arcs of the source material (covered in the novels and anime), although the material it does cover is very accurate, obviously aside from the exclusions of material/diaolgue mentioning the excluded arcs.
I'll answer that question with a question: Why would they need to show that scene in Railgun at all? We already know it happens, after all we've seen (or will see, if you started with Railgun) it happen in Index. Removing the scene does not introduce an inconsistency. In fact, if you've read my debate with Nayrael, removes several inconsistencies.Beeeecause without it, the chronology of Index/Railgun gets messed up? :p
Could you explain to me why this scene playing out differently has nullified the Index opening? This part I don't get. Just because it doesn't happen in this episode doesn't mean the event in Index is nullified at all. It just means the event in Index happened at a later -or possibly earlier- time.Um, you're not seriously asking that are you? Please tell me that's rhetorical. Because how can the opening of Index, where Touma and Mikoto face down on the bridge, happen, if Touma and Mikoto don't face down on the bridge? As for the last part, you have a habit of not paying attention to what others say; you're literally repeating what I've been saying since my first post in this thread. However, earlier can't work because the immediately following day to the bridge scene there is another Index-Railgun connecting scene between Mikoto and Touma, and obviously that hasn't happened yet.
Nor can you dismiss the fact that the manga event itself already played out differently than the Index version in the first place, yet you happily seem to do this.Umm, no I'm not. Maybe you should decide on reading what people say better before trolling on other people's comments.....if you had done the former, you would have seen that since my very first post on page one, long before you ever started arguing, I said, just as you did later (after obviously not reading anything I said prior), that JC Staff might be trying to fix the inconsistencies in the manga's version of the Touma-saving-delinquents scene.
But that still doesn't really answer "Why did JC Staff do it?" It's not like the manga version of the scene utterly ridiculed or crushed anything.
Why?Yet more borderline trolling. :rolleyes:
Maybe you should consider not being a glutton for punishment......
velvet nightmare
2009-11-21, 16:32
so how did they walk away without getting information when they clearly had that asphalt girl beat and in 1 piece?
Beeeecause without it, the chronology of Index/Railgun gets messed up? :p
*tilts head* There were clear dates given for each event in Railgun?
Um, you're not seriously asking that are you? Please tell me that's rhetorical. Because how can the opening of Index, where Touma and Mikoto face down on the bridge, happen, if Touma and Mikoto don't face down on the bridge? As for the last part, you have a habit of not paying attention to what others say; you're literally repeating what I've been saying since my first post there. However, earlier can't work, because the immediately following day there is another Index-Railgun connecting scene, and obviously that hasn't happened yet.
Quite simple. It did happen, but not during the event the Railgun manga laid out. In other words: This event was not the Index event, the Index event happened at a later date. Unless a clear date was given on the Railgun episode, this should be perfectly possible.
Umm, no I'm not. Maybe you should decide on reading what people say better before trolling on other people's comments.....if you had done the former, you would have seen that since my very first post on page one, long before you ever started arguing, I said, just as you did later (after obviously not reading anything I said prior), that JC Staff might be trying to fix the inconsistencies in the manga's version of the Touma-saving-delinquents scene.
My apologies, I did read, but I posted several hours later and forgot. The recent post I replied to merely spoke of the episode introducing inconsistencies but not about the ones they fixed.
But that still doesn't really answer "Why did JC Staff do it?" It's not like the manga version of the scene utterly ridiculed or crushed anything.
You answered your own question. They fixed a few very obvious differences between the two anime versions. If they had left the scene as it was in the manga, we would instead be having a debate to decide "which scene is the right one?"
Shinji103
2009-11-21, 16:55
*tilts head* There were clear dates given for each event in Railgun?I think we can agree that the Index-Railgun connection events, especially the one we're talking about, made things clear enough. And a later scene almost immediately following the bridge scene in the manga made it even clearer.
Quite simple. It did happen, but not during the event the Railgun manga laid out. In other words: This event was not the Index event, the Index event happened at a later date. Unless a clear date was given on the Railgun episode, this should be perfectly possible.Possible, yes. Without feeling dumb, not so much, as pointed out by me and others in previous pages. After all, it'll be an almost exactly identical scene happening at a different point in time.
You answered your own question. They fixed a few very obvious differences between the two anime versions. If they had left the scene as it was in the manga, we would instead be having a debate to decide "which scene is the right one?"I can agree, yet at the same time have to disagree, here. Touma only arrived on the scene after Mikoto's moe mode so he missed everything there, and thus the major integrity of the Index viewpoint was preserved, since from his eyes, he didn't see anything more than Mikoto getting hit on by delinquents. (the only inconsistency would be that Mikoto was sitting in Index, and she was standing in the Railgun manga, which could have easily been changed to her sitting in the Railgun anime) But again, as I said, I agree that this scene isn't beyond the need of fixing and it's possible this is JC Staff's intention; it'll just feel very awkward later if they come back, because they'll have to reproduce almost the exact same scene. And if they don't, well that'll crush a big part of Index/Railgun chronology.
J.C.Staff,
...I am disappoint.
Click This
2009-11-21, 17:13
In support of JC-Staff, I'd like to show you this screencap:
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/8837/thisrk.jpg
Since this is at a power plant, a moderate shock would have caused the blackout; so there was infact at least two incidents where the city lost its power.
I think we can agree that the Index-Railgun connection events, especially the one we're talking about, made things clear enough. And a later scene almost immediately following the bridge scene in the manga made it even clearer.
Hmm, true. The follow up scene would be rather awkward at this point in time. That would mean they should need to shift the timelines a bit more... No, even then they can make it work.
If I were to write this, I'd scrap the 'Touma and Mikoto on the bridge' scene out of Railgun alltogether, and re-write the followup. The original version (in other words, the Index version) would happen 'backstage' so to say, out of the screen in Railgun, but centralized in Index. The followup would then be tweaked a bit, removing references to the bridge scene, but keeping Touma's linking quips.
Moving the scene to the background removes the awkwardness of two 'restaurant punk' scenes following one another so closely, and keeps the shuffling of timelines on the background.
Of course, this is just a theory. Only time will tell if I made a good guess.
I can agree, yet at the same time have to disagree, here. Touma only arrived on the scene after Mikoto's moe mode so he missed everything there, and thus the major integrity of the Index scene was preserved, since from his eyes, he didn't see anything more than Mikoto getting hit on by delinquents.
Well, I'll still argue that because the entire content of the conversation between Touma and Mikoto on the bridge is different in either version, those two scenes are already too different to claim the major integrity to be intact. Each may be from either point of view, but the base content of their conversation is too drastically different.
On another note, I do find it somewhat ironic that we are comparing the timeline of an anime based on a novel to a timeline of an anime based of a spinoff manga of an anime based on the same novel, and yet when the manga based on the anime based on the novel comes to word, it is immediately discarded.
Poor Index manga, nobody seems to like you. :heh:
That said, I do think the writers at the staff seem to compare anime to anime, not anime to manga as we do.
Gotta love how Mikoto didn't notice that she is at a power plant... you'd think she would know them quite well, being electromasters like her and all
Poor Index manga, nobody seems to like you.
I love it. That doesn't mean that I need to call it faithful tough :D
Good point, she should be able to sense such a thing. Guess she was too fired up to sense it?
Shinji103
2009-11-21, 17:23
If I were to write this, I'd scrap the 'Touma and Mikoto on the bridge' scene out of Railgun alltogether, and re-write the followup. The original version (in other words, the Index version) would happen 'backstage' so to say, out of the screen in Railgun, but centralized in Index. The followup would then be tweaked a bit, removing references to the bridge scene, but keeping Touma's linking quips.
Moving the scene to the background removes the awkwardness of two 'restaurant punk' scenes following one another so closely, and keeps the shuffling of timelines on the background. The problem with this is that it feels like a big cop-out. And why go to the effort of remaking the scene with new punks, a different opponent, and excluding Touma, when a few minor changes to the scene while keeping Touma in there would solve everything?
Well, I'll still argue that because the entire content of the conversation between Touma and Mikoto on the bridge is different in either version, those two scenes are already too different to claim the major integrity to be intact. Each is from either point of view, the base content of their conversation is too drastically different.True, but excluding Touma entirely from this scene still just made things worse rather than solving a problem. Bringing the scene back later would feel dumb, and ignoring the scene would a) be a big cop-out and b) would mean they'd have to ignore another Mikoto-Touma-Index-relation event that comes the next day after the bridge scene. All the while, they could have easily fixed the scene to be consistent with Index without removing Touma and creating these problems.
On another note, I do find it somewhat ironic that we are comparing the timeline of an anime based on a novel to a timeline of an anime based of a spinoff manga of an anime based on the same novel, and yet when the manga based on the anime based on the novel comes to word, it is immediately discarded.Except the Index manga was actually very in-line with the Index novels and anime in regards to what we're talking about, so there's no point in bringing up the Index anime and manga. As far as this scene is concerned, Index manga exactly = Index anime. Heck, the Index manga is pretty much exactly identical to the anime, with the exception of the exclusion of certain arcs from the manga storyline.
EDIT: Fixed for wrong mindset one part. >.>
The problem with this is that it feels like a big cop-out. And why go to the effort of remaking the scene with new punks, a different opponent, and excluding Touma, when a few minor changes to the scene while keeping Touma in there would solve everything?
Well, I'm not a mind reader, so I don't know for sure why JC staff would do this. However, I do know that no writer, director or editor would make these kinds of changes thinking "Hey, let's change this scene so the fans of the manga get pissed, har har." More often, they make these changes because it improves the story, so I can think of several reasons: Removing the inconsistency in the bridge chat, removing the unexplained lack of action on Kuroko's part, giving a better explanation why Mikoto caused a power outage (I mean, zapping a bridge = power outage?) though that last one is an inconsistency in itself, now that I think about it.
There's also a chance that perhaps there are more reasons for this change that won't become clear until later on.
True, but I still say excluding Touma entirely from this scene just made things worse rather than solving a problem. They could have easily fixed the scene to being consistent with Index.
While true, that does raise the issue of repeated content. What's to say the viewers wouldn't complain about seeing the Index bridge scene repeated again?
Damned if they do, damned if they don't. Script writing is not an easy business.
Except the Index manga was actually very in-line with the Index novels and anime in regards to what we're talking about, so there's no point in bringing up the Index anime and manga. As far as this scene is concerned, Index manga exactly = Index anime. Heck, the Index manga is pretty much exactly identical to the anime, with the exception of the exclusion of certain arcs from the manga storyline.
*blinks*
*re-reads Nayaerl's post*
I don't know what to believe anymore. :eyespin:
Shinji103
2009-11-21, 17:54
Well, I'm not a mind reader, so I don't know for sure why JC staff would do this. However, I do know that no writer, director or editor would make these kinds of changes thinking "Hey, let's change this scene so the fans of the manga get pissed, har har." More often, they make these changes because it improves the story, so I can think of several reasons: Removing the inconsistency in the bridge chat, removing the unexplained lack of action on Kuroko's part, giving a better explanation why Mikoto caused a power outage (I mean, zapping a bridge = power outage?) though that last one is an inconsistency in itself, now that I think about it.Well you talk about them not doing it to piss off the manga fans (of course, obviously), but then excluding the scene entirely would piss off fans all the same. And those reasons you list can all be fixed without removing Touma and making a new scene, so why go to the effort? Either way, the original Railgun version of this scene in no way really damaged anything, so just leaving it as-is would have been perfectly fine; nothing changed story- or plot-wise. Remodeling it like this, however, has undoubtedly caused controversy similar to what's going on here in other places across the Internet.
While true, that does raise the issue of repeated content. What's to say the viewers wouldn't complain about seeing the Index bridge scene repeated again?
Damned if they do, damned if they don't. Script writing is not an easy business.Why would they be mad about it? It establishes the link between the Index and Railgun storylines. If JC Staff repeated the scene exactly as it was shown in Index then it might be stupid, but that could easily be prevented too, while not affecting the plot or story. And I still don't believe that it was worth it to change the scene so drastically from it's manga version in the first place.
*blinks*
*re-reads Nayaerl's post*
I don't know what to believe anymore. :eyespin:He's right in that entire arcs from the Index anime and novels don't happen in the Index manga. (and one arc from the novels that wasn't in the anime is included in the manga) But as for this specific scene we're talking about, the Index manga is consistent and accurate with the Index anime.
I, for one, have decided to simply view Index and Railgun as two different stories. That way, rather nitpicking small consistency issues, I can just go enjoy the story for what it is. Also, I personally hold some dislike for Touma, so him not appearing is a welcome change for me.
I'm giving this episode a 9 in honor of Misaka's moe acting and Kuroko repeatedly slamming her head against the table :D
Also, my favorite sleep-deprived stripping scientist is back...
Shinji103
2009-11-21, 18:18
I, for one, have decided to simply view Index and Railgun as two different stories. That way, rather nitpicking small consistency issues, I can just go enjoy the story for what it is. Also, I personally hold some dislike for Touma, so him not appearing is a welcome change for me.Well, a) you can't say that Index and Railgun aren't related because they are, it's simple, inarguable fact; b) this isn't a small inconsistency..... ; c) I once again find myself wondering why Touma is hated. If it's about the overused "preachiness" excuse, I could name several dozen anime leads just as or far more preachy than Touma, yet none of them get called on it.
Well you talk about them not doing it to piss off the manga fans (of course, obviously), but then excluding the scene entirely would piss off fans all the same.
True, and that's where the why comes in. The only reason any sane director would alter or remove scenes is if they believe it improves the story. Whether it actually does is questionable, after all, directors are only human too.
A good example of this, Peter Jackson removed Tom Bombadil from the Lord of the Rings movie. This pissed of a good deal of fans, but in the end most of them agreed that in the end it was a good thing to do.
I think you missed my point. By fixing the Touma-Mikoto-bridge, they would eliminate the inconsistencies and at the same time wind up with only the one power outage scene.
I understand your point, however fixing the inconstancies would mean making the scene exactly like it's Index counterpart, as any difference is an inconsistency.
Since change is already needed, discussion starts about what and how things should change, things spiral on from there. I myself can understand the sentiment in wanting to avoid a copy/paste of the Index scene.
By the way, does anyone know how deep Kamachi is involved with the anime production?
Shinji103
2009-11-21, 18:26
True, and that's where the why comes in. The only reason any sane director would alter or remove scenes is if they believe it improves the story. Whether it actually does is questionable, after all, directors are only human too.
A good example of this, Peter Jackson removed Tom Bombadil from the Lord of the Rings movie. This pissed of a good deal of fans, but in the end most of them agreed that in the end it was a good thing to do.Well obviously they changed it because they think it improves the story. But that's not really whatI'm asking; why did they think this would improve the Railgun story? Because from where I'm standing at this moment, it didn't work due to new and bigger inconsistencies created, cop-out-ness if the scene is skipped, or dumb-ness if they repeat it. Just because changes eventually worked in LotR doesn't mean making changes here would work.
I understand your point, however fixing the inconstancies would mean making the scene exactly like it's Index counterpart, as any difference is an inconsistency.
Since change is already needed, discussion starts about what and how things should change, things spiral on from there. I myself can understand the sentiment in wanting to avoid a copy/paste of the Index scene.It all depends on how picky people are; as I said, leaving the scene as-is would have been fine since it didn't change any story or plot elements, and would have resulted in something different. This would have been the best course of action. As you said, damned if they do, damned if they don't; there are always naysayers. You say you don't like the way the Railgun manga did the scene differently to avoid exact-likeness, I say I didn't like this drastic change. So why not go with what has obviously worked, instead of either dumb-ly repeating a scene or tossing away said defining scene of the Index/Railgun universe? ("defining" in that it defines the chronological link between Index and Railgun)
Well, a) you can't say that Index and Railgun aren't related because they are, it's simple, inarguable fact; b) this isn't a small inconsistency..... ; c) I once again find myself wondering why Touma is hated. If it's about the overused "preachiness" excuse I could name several dozen anime leads just as or far more preachy than Touma, yet none of the get called on it.
a) I never said they weren't. I only said that I'd rather view them as such for the sake of my enjoyment of the series. I don't want to watch a series while reacting to every single thing that does not play out exactly like Index.
b) I wouldn't know.
c) It's not the preachiness that I hate. As you mentioned, so many more characters from other series are guilty of this. It's just that his style of blocking everything with his hand then punching the opponent just got kinda old. Well, there are exceptions, but I don't remember them well enough. Also, I dislike his meddlesome personality.
Shinji103
2009-11-21, 18:40
a) I never said they weren't. I only said that I'd rather view them as such for the sake of my enjoyment of the series. I don't want to watch a series while reacting to every single thing that does not play out exactly like Index.Again, you overexaggerate; there hasn't been any other scenes that defied consistency with Index so there hasn't been a reaction to "every single thing that does not play out exactly like Index," and again, this is a strongly-linking scene we're talking about.
b) I wouldn't know.Then why are you talking like you understand the significance? :heh:
c) It's not the preachiness that I hate. As you mentioned, so many more characters from other series are guilty of this. It's just that his style of blocking everything with his hand then punching the opponent just got kinda old. Well, there are exceptions, but I don't remember them well enough. Also, I dislike his meddlesome personality.On the blocking everything part, I'd have to say that's definitely overexaggerated. The Index anime, and especially the novels, have had many fights where Touma's ability isn't some overpowered strength. He can't stop a steel beam launched towards him at mach 1 by Accelerator, only stop Accelerator from popping his cranium, and only if he knocks Accelerator away with his right hand. There are actually overpowered heroes out there who aren't called such.
And his meddlesome-ness, just the same with his "prechiness" and his overpowered-ness, is another thing that plenty of other anime leads have in much more abundance, and I've never seen them get called on it. And quite frankly, I think it's hard to get on his meddlesome-ness. He's not telling people how to live or act. He's saving people.
So I still find myself looking at all these people saying Touma is annoying and their reasonings, and not following at all. >.>
Well obviously they changed it because they think it improves the story. But that's not really whatI'm asking; why did they think this would improve the Railgun story? Because from where I'm standing at this moment, it didn't work due to new and bigger inconsistencies created, cop-out-ness if the scene is skipped, or dumb-ness if they repeat it. Just because changes eventually worked in LotR doesn't mean making changes here would work.
Well, I've given several examples ranging from fixing the inconsistencies, fixing plotholes, giving Kuroko a better light, no they don't always work but the 'why' lies in there.
It all depends on how picky people are; as I said, leaving the scene as-is would have been fine since it didn't change any story or plot elements, and would have resulted in something different. This would have been the best course of action. As you said, damned if they do, damned if they don't; there are always naysayers. You say you don't like the way the Railgun manga did the scene differently to avoid exact-likeness, I say I didn't like this drastic change. So why not go with what has obviously worked, instead of either dumb-ly repeating a scene or tossing away said defining scene of the Index/Railgun universe? ("defining" in that it defines the chronological link between Index and Railgun)
Actually, I did like the manga version more than this one (as I've said before :p) however, I can understand the reason behind this change, as well as see why they made the attempt. The defining chronological link can easily be shifted with no impact on the story. After all, do you know how many days pass between each episode?
Perhaps it's because I've finished 4 years of multimedia, and am now studying editing. Taking an education in something tends to spike one's nitpicking urges.
Shinji103
2009-11-21, 19:00
Well, I've given several examples ranging from fixing the inconsistencies, fixing plotholes, giving Kuroko a better light, no they don't always work but the 'why' lies in there.And I don't see how eliminating a defining scene works to improve anything, hence why my question remains.
Actually, I did like the manga version more than this one (as I've said before :p) however, I can understand the reason behind this change, as well as see why they made the attempt. The defining chronological link can easily be shifted with no impact on the story. After all, do you know how many days pass between each episode?Err, no you didn't. And I just went over all your posts in this thread to be sure I didn't miss it. >.> You did say you were looking forward to the Touma/Mikoto bickering, though.
I can see why it was made too; however that doesn't mean it was good, nor does it mean I thought it was good.
As for shifting the scene, as I and others have said and you agreed, having two almost exactly identical scenes would be dumb. Keeping the manga version of this scene would have avoided this and everything would be done and simple, no controversies.
Again, you overexaggerate; there hasn't been any other scenes that defied consistency with Index so there hasn't been a reaction to "every single thing that does not play out exactly like Index," and again, this is a strongly-linking scene we're talking about.
As I mentioned, I'm viewing both shows to be separate things not because they're unrelated, but because I enjoy it much more that way. I'm not forcing this way of thought on anybody. If you feel like discussing the links between the two shows, go ahead. I just want no part in it.
Then why are you talking like you understand the significance? :heh:
I honestly don't. I'd rather not waste the effort of touching up on Index just to find out why it is significant.
On the blocking everything part, I'd have to say that's definitely overexaggerated. The Index anime, and especially the novels, have had many fights where Touma's ability isn't some overpowered strength. He can't stop a steel beam launched towards him at mach 1 by Accelerator, only stop Accelerator from popping his cranium, and only if he knocks Accelerator away with his right hand. There are actually overpowered heroes out there who aren't called such.
And his meddlesome-ness, just the same with his "prechiness" and his overpowered-ness, is another thing that plenty of other anime leads have in much more abundance, and I've never seen them get called on it. And quite frankly, I think it's hard to get on his meddlesome-ness. He's not telling people how to live or act. He's saving people.
So I still find myself looking at all these people saying Touma is annoying and their reasonings, and not following at all. >.>
I did not say that Touma was overpowered. I said that his fighting style got repetitive and boring for me. Also, I don't like Touma's habit of disregarding his own life and interfering with the problems of others. In fact, I hate that kind of hero in general.
And I don't see how eliminating a defining scene works to improve anything, hence why my question remains.
because this defining scene is hardly as important as you make it sound. It really has no bearing on the Railgun story in any way whatsoever, and can easily be replaced by a slightly altered version of its follow up.
Err, no you didn't. And I just went over all your posts in this thread to be sure I didn't miss it. >.>
Well perhaps you should try reading my posts then?
Hmm, mixed feelings about this episode. One one hand, I was looking forward to more Touma/Mikoto bickering
I understand the disappointment, I'm disappointed at the scrapping of Touma as well
As for shifting the scene, as I and others have said and you agreed, having two almost exactly identical scenes would be dumb. Keeping the manga version of this scene would have avoided this and everything would be done and simple, no controversies.
Perhaps you have forgotten when I mentioned the scene would be moved to the background, and not be shown on-screen at all? It would happen 'off-screen' some un-defined time after this episode, and then pinned down chronologically by its follow up.
Shinji103
2009-11-21, 19:23
I did not say that Touma was overpowered. I said that his fighting style got repetitive and boring for me. Also, I don't like Touma's habit of disregarding his own life and interfering with the problems of others. In fact, I hate that kind of hero in general.In regards to his fighting style, againm he can't block everything, he often has to think of things to win the battle beyond simply blocking everything his opponent throws at him. In the Stiyl fight he had to find a way to disable his powers, against Lezar-whatever (I forgot his name.... :heh:) he was losing until he realized the trick to his powers, etc.
As for the interfering, again I can't see how you can hate a person for trying to help another. That is yet another point that many other heroes have in abundance, but aren't hated (in fact, they're often praised) for. That just seems like over-pickiness now. It looks to me that Touma gets all the pickiness because he isn't some super-swordsman like Kenshin Himura or awesome gunman like Vash the Stampede.
Buuuuut, we should probably stop talking about this here, since....well, it's not the Touma thread. :heh:
because this defining scene is hardly as important as you make it sound. It really has no bearing on the Railgun story in any way whatsoever, and can easily be replaced by a slightly altered version of its follow up.I'd have to respond to that and say it's not as unimportant as you make it sound. Railgun is a sidestory of Index. Inarguable fact. Establishing a relation to that original series can be pretty dang important. And I know there are tons of fans out there who would easily rave/complain and go nuts over this.
Well perhaps you should try reading my posts then?So now we're back to borderline trolling, eh? I kinda said I did, hence how I saw where you said you were looking forward to Touma/Mikoto bickering this episode. But nowhere did you say you preferred one version over the other, until now.
Perhaps you have forgotten when I mentioned the scene would be moved to the background, and not be shown on-screen at all? It would happen 'off-screen' some un-defined time after this episode, and then pinned down chronologically by its follow up.And, again, this would be a major cop-out. As I said back when you first stated that option. So no, I didn't forget it. :p
Waaaay back in the Life of Superman comics with the showdown against the Cyborg and Mongul in Coast City, they had Green Lantern's PoV and Superman's PoV. Despite the risk of it being repetitive they had events "repeat" with slight differences in the GL and Superman comics. Nobody made a fuss about it.
I certainly did say that just because it works somewhere doesn't mean it'll work elsewhere, but since they'd already done the "repeat" scene on the bridge in the Railgun manga, there wouldn't be any problem in sticking with it for the anime. The inconsistencies you've pointed out, and which were already debated against by others, wouldn't have been as much of a problem as the potential cop-out you're suggesting.
I'd have to respond to that and say it's not as unimportant as you make it sound. Railgun is a sidestory of Index. Inarguable fact. Establishing a relation to that original series can be pretty dang important. And I know there are tons of fans out there who would easily rave/complain and go nuts over this.
True, but this scene is not vital to that. It's follow up serves the same purpose, even better in fact, because it is without any contradiction even in the manga.
So now we're back to borderline trolling, eh?
An innocent joke even put into amusing fake code-marks. Guess I should have used [joke] instead of [jab]
I kinda said I did, hence how I saw where you said you were looking forward to Touma/Mikoto bickering this episode. But nowhere did you say you preferred one version over the other, until now.
So let me get this straight... me saying I'm disappointed that the Touma scene is scrapped is not clear enough that I preferred it over the current one? I'd think that makes my preference pretty darned clear.
And, again, this would be a major cop-out. As I said back when you first stated that option. So no, I didn't forget it. :p
Waaaay back in the Life of Superman comics with the showdown against the Cyborg and Mongul in Coast City, they had Green Lantern's PoV and Superman's PoV. Despite the risk of it being repetitive they had events "repeat" with slight differences in the GL and Superman comics. Nobody made a fuss about it.
I certainly did say that just because it works somewhere doesn't mean it'll work elsewhere, but since they'd already done the "repeat" scene on the bridge in the Railgun manga, there wouldn't be any problem in sticking with it for the anime. The inconsistencies you've pointed out, and which were already debated against by others, wouldn't have been as much of a problem as the potential cop-out you're suggesting.
Repeat is just as risky as change, the manga did repeat, for the anime it was considered to risky and they chose change.
Shinji103
2009-11-21, 19:49
True, but this scene is not vital to that. It's follow up serves the same purpose, even better in fact, because it is without any contradiction even in the manga.It is vital in a way; it's drawing another part of the relationship between the two series-es. They gave us related characters, now we have chronological relations. (or would have, anyway) And again, I know there are people out there who would take up disagreements with you on this. :heh:
So let me get this straight... me saying I'm disappointed that the Touma scene is scrapped is not clear enough that I preferred it over the current one? I'd think that makes my preference pretty darned clear.Considering how strong you are in defending the change here, I'd say it isn't so clear. :heh:
Repeat is just as risky as change, the manga did repeat, for the anime it was considered to risky and they chose change.Except the manga version has long been tried-and-true. There's only as much risk in using it for the anime, as there is in making an anime of a manga in general. (a previously-done work) Hence, less risk than change.
An interesting thing I found on Random Curiosity (http://randomc.animeblogger.net/2009/11/21/to-aru-kagaku-no-railgun-08/all-comments/#comments) (where pretty much everybody is disappointed in JC Staff's actions here too :p), is that somebody mentioned they show the date at the beginning of every episode. I haven't spotted it (maybe I'm just not looking hard enough), but that might be indicative of JC Staff's intentions. (I know they have specific dates for events in the Index storyline, I believe including the date of the bridge scene; gthere was a lot of talk about it recently in the novel thread here)
EDIT: Going through the RC comments some more, and apparently, according to the comments, the Railgun timeline events already deviate from the Index timeline quite a bit.
EDIT 2: On a related and...."interesting" note, a Rom, at RC thought that the Touma-bridge scene everybody is talking about, is the bridge scene where Touma confronts Mikoto about Accelerator, prior to going off to beat him up. :heh:
Marcus H.
2009-11-21, 19:57
Okay, I'll just think that J.C. Staff bent some rules in the Railgun manga and made the adaptation such that this is NOT July 19 unlike what the manga's telling us.
It's less of a headache to think of it that way.
It is vital in a way; it's drawing another part of the relationship between the two series-es. They gave us related characters, now we have chronological relations. (or would have, anyway) And again, I know there are people out there who would take up disagreements with you on this. :heh:
Yes, and the follow up can do the exact same thing. Therefore, it is not vital.
Considering how strong you are in defending the change here, I'd say it isn't so clear. :heh:
That's what being objective is all about. I would have much preferred the manga version (seriously, Touma taking a Railgun? Yes please! Need more GAR Touma), but I can see why they changed it.
An interesting thing I found on Random Curiosity (http://randomc.animeblogger.net/2009/11/21/to-aru-kagaku-no-railgun-08/all-comments/#comments) (where pretty much everybody is disappointed in JC Staff's actions here too :p), is that somebody mentioned they show the date at the beginning of every episode. I haven't spotted it (maybe I'm just not looking hard enough), but that might be indicative of JC Staff's intentions. (I know they have specific dates for events in the Index storyline, I believe including the date of the bridge scene; gthere was a lot of talk about it recently in the novel thread here)
Really? Well, if they did that and the date is the same as the Index version, then that does shoot to pieces any way to fix this.
EDIT: Going through the RC comments some more, and apparently, according to the comments, the Railgun timeline events already deviate from the Index timeline quite a bit.
Manga and anime? Or just anime?
EDIT 2: On a related and...."interesting" note, a Rom, at RC thought that the Touma-bridge scene everybody is talking about, is the bridge scene where Touma confronts Mikoto about Accelerator, prior to going off to beat him up. :heh:
Ah, misunderstandings. How we thrive on them.
Really? Well, if they did that and the date is the same as the Index version, then that does shoot to pieces any way to fix this.
The first Index Episode definitely mentions the date, but I rewatched this Railgun episode looking for a date written anywhere in the background and did not see one.
Shinji103
2009-11-21, 20:06
Yes, and the follow up can do the exact same thing. Therefore, it is not vital.Just because another scene can do something similar doesn't mean another scene is less vital.
That's what being objective is all about. I would have much preferred the manga version (seriously, Touma taking a Railgun? Yes please! Need more GAR Touma), but I can see why they changed it. I know that's what being objective is. It's also why it wasn't clear you liked the manga version better.
Really? Well, if they did that and the date is the same as the Index version, then that does shoot to pieces any way to fix this.Maybe someone who was part of the timeline discussion in the Index novel thread here could bring those timelines back up?
EDIT: Manga and anime? Or just anime?Just the anime apparently.
A lot of people don’t realize it due to unfamiliarity with the original source material, but the Index novels have a fairly clear timeline of events with dates given as things occur.
The Railgun manga was designed to fit into the original timeline as seamlessly as possible, and actually does a very good job of it and also clearly labels where events take place in the timeline.
The Index manga and anime adaptations shift and cut and add events and do not match the original events exactly. The railgun anime however goes even further in deviating from the original timeline.It's not surprising the Index manga is off-timeline since it cut whole arcs out.
Now excuse me while I take a shower.... :heh:
Just because another scene can do something similar doesn't mean another scene is less vital.
Vital means you can't do without it. If another scene can replace the effect this one aims to achieve, it's not vital.
I know that's what being objective is. It's also why it wasn't clear you liked the manga version better.
Again, I stated I am disappointed with the change. Why on earth would I like the change if I'm disappointed with it? :eyespin:
Maybe someone who was part of the timeline discussion in the Index novel thread here could bring those timelines back up?
Could, but what we really need here is the Railgun dates.
EDIT: Just the anime apparently.
Well, that'll solve this problem one way or another. Full spinoff means all brakes are loose and no telling where this anime is going.
It's not surprising the Index manga is off-timeline since it cut whole arcs out.
Now excuse me while I take a shower.... :heh:
Cutting whole arcs is easily solved by a pretty little textbox saying "X time later."
FlareKnight
2009-11-21, 20:39
Well that's one heck of a debate going on there. Anyways too bad of the lack of Touma since those bickering moments are fun to watch. Maybe they wanted to give Mikoto a chance to dominate an opponent since not being able to beat Touma and the fumble against the bomber puts her on a disappointing streak in terms of fights.
Worthy of mention is Saten. I'm sure she represents a few people in that city. Those with dreams of finding out what they could do and their cool abilities only to get shot down. Kind of tough to live in the city that you were dreaming of, but lacking the ability that you hoped to have. At least she has friends to rely on when feeling down.
Shinji103
2009-11-21, 20:48
Vital means you can't do without it. If another scene can replace the effect this one aims to achieve, it's not vital.So the Railgun-only viewers are supposed to go "What the heck? When did that happen? What's going on here?" when they get to the following scene that happens the next day after the bridge scene? If the bridge scene is never showed, they'll never know it happened. Not all the Railgun viewers are going to be here or on any anime forum or website to see people explaining it.
Again, I stated I am disappointed with the change. Why on earth would I like the change if I'm disappointed with it? :eyespin:You...never said anything about being disappointed with the change, just the exclusion of Touma/Mikoto bickering....
This is why I repeatedly and exclusively state my full intentions and thoughts (i.e. I say when I understand things despite disagreeing with them), so I don't get misunderstood like that. :heh:
Could, but what we really need here is the Railgun dates.Yeah, but we need the Index dates too to compare.
Well, that'll solve this problem one way or another. Full spinoff means all brakes are loose and no telling where this anime is going.Who said this was a full spinoff? And obviously it's not, since we still have Touma and Railgun is obviously still tied in to Index. As purple said, the Index anime and manga timelines were off from the base material too, and I'm pretty sure they weren't spinoffs.
Cutting whole arcs is easily solved by a pretty little textbox saying "X time later."I never said there was any problem here.....I just said "that's not suprising because arcs were cut out."
Ah, misunderstandings. How we thrive on them.For the record and for clarity, since I was a little not-specific there, Nom was one of the aye-sayers for this episode. He was telling people to calm down and stop talking about the lack of the bridge scene and stuff because he was thinking of the wrong bridge scene. :heh:
So the Railgun-only viewers are supposed to go "What the heck? When did that happen? What's going on here?" when they get to the following scene that happens the next day after the bridge scene? If the bridge scene is never showed, they'll never know it happened. Not all the Railgun viewers are going to be here or on any anime forum or website to see people explaining it.
Considering half that scene would make Railgun-only viewers go "what the heck? When did that happen?" regardless of the bridge scene, that doesn't really matter, does it? Nothing the bridge scene showed added anything to the follow-up anyway. Just one little line made a small reference to it at best, which is easily changed.
You...never said anything about being disappointed with the change, just the exclusion of Touma/Mikoto bickering....
Last I checked, exclusion of something in a new media meant change... which unless the definition of change was altered last I checked, means that I was disappointed in the change.
This is why I repeatedly and exclusively state my full intentions and thoughts (i.e. I say when I understand things despite disagreeing with them), so I don't get misunderstood like that. :heh:
Yes, I thought I was being clear enough by stating my disappointment. I hate redundant repetition, so I don't write my preferences constantly. Though obviously I should do so a bit more often at least.
Who said this was a full spinoff? And obviously it's not, since we still have Touma and Railgun is obviously still tied in to Index. As purple said, the Index anime and manga timelines were off from the base material too, and I'm pretty sure they weren't spinoffs.
If the dates are changed all semblance of chronology are off, which means the series is no longer running parallel and thereby doesn't have the same boundaries as it's manga counterpart. In that regard, it could then change whatever it pleased since there was no need to follow the timeline closely anymore.
I never said there was any problem here.....I just said "that's not suprising because arcs were cut out."
What I meant was that cutting of arcs doesn't automatically mean less time was spend between them.
Shinji103
2009-11-21, 21:33
Considering half that scene would make Railgun-only viewers go "what the heck? When did that happen?" regardless of the bridge scene, that doesn't really matter, does it? Nothing the bridge scene showed added anything to the follow-up anyway. Just one little line made a small reference to it at best, which is easily changed.I don't think the viewers will be going "What are they talking about" if they know what they're talking about. And if JC Staff were just going to get rid of whole scenes that draw the parallels between Index and Railgun, then why are they even bothering to make Railgun related to Index? :heh:
Last I checked, exclusion of something in a new media meant change... which unless the definition of change was altered last I checked, means that I was disappointed in the change.Nice attempt to twist words there.........but you never said you didn't like all the changes, just the lack of Touma/Mikoto. Paired with your strong defense of the changes, makes it hard for people to see your dislike for it, especially when you didn't state your dislike until now. :heh:
If the dates are changed all semblance of chronology are off, which means the series is no longer running parallel and thereby doesn't have the same boundaries as it's manga counterpart. In that regard, it could then change whatever it pleased since there was no need to follow the timeline closely anymore.Aaaaand we still need the Index timeline dates to see if the dates are different. >.> And certainly there's nothing fundamentally wrong with Railgun not running totally parallel to Index, it just all depends on how well they pull it off. Whch isn't looking good at the moment, if they're deciding to cut whole scenes and interactions for not-so-worthwhile reasons.
What I meant was that cutting of arcs doesn't automatically mean less time was spend between them.All I said was "It's not surprising." >.>
And with that second to last part, I think we should draw the curtain on this debate. We've pretty much hit a roadblock since we can't draw any more conclusions based on what we know right now, so there's no point in going on and on here, other than to tire out our poor hands and fingers.
And I haven't eaten or drank a thing.
All day. :heh:
I don't think the viewers will be going "What are they talking about" if they know what they're talking about. And if JC Staff were just going to get rid of whole scenes that draw the parallels between Index and Railgun, then why are they even bothering to make Railgun related to Index? :heh:
Gah! It's hard to talk about this without throwing down forbidden spoilers. The very thing Touma talks about in that follow up that links it to Index never happens in Railgun, remember?
Nice attempt to twist words there.........but you never said you didn't like all the changes, just the lack of Touma/Mikoto. Paired with your strong defense of the changes, makes it hard for people to see your dislike for it, especially when you didn't state your dislike until now. :heh:
[cut rant]
Fine, have it your way. It's all my fault for not spelling out in bright neon letters "I AM NOT HAPPY WITH THESE CHANGES!" in every single one of my posts.
Also, the sun should be rising in a few hours, time to see if I can get some sleep. <_<;
Sol Falling
2009-11-21, 22:19
The pseudo-science in this show is pretty weak. lol at mixing vague 'that would be cool' bullshit like 'personal realities', boiling down quantum physics to Schrodinger's cat, and then having that be taught to middle schoolers.
Touma annoyed me when he interfered in the manga scene. However, that was fine because I dislike him in general. That the anime removed the one scene I know of (said knowledge being limited to subbed/scanlated Railgun manga/anime, no Index) where Touma was shown explicitly to be a nuisance is a bit disappointing. And of course, the villain of the week who replaced him was just lame.
I did like the Kuroko head-smashing segments.
The pseudo-science in this show is pretty weak. lol at mixing vague 'that would be cool' bullshit like 'personal realities', boiling down quantum physics to Schrodinger's cat, and then having that be taught to middle schoolers.
Yeah, I couldn't help but laugh at it in Index, and I can't help grinning here either. I like it though. It prevents discussions using "but according to physics" from rising, since the very base of psychic powers is to say "Screw you!" to physics.
That, and if personal reality is the source of a psychic's power, a lot of us here make a fairly good chance at it. :3
Spectacular_Insanity
2009-11-22, 03:22
Good episode, though it could have been better. 8/10
I couldn't help thinking to myself through the whole episode, though, "Well maybe the numbered ranking system itself needs to be revised". Seriously. If a level 2 esper has the destructive power of a level 4, wouldn't that just make him a level 4? I don't see what's so complicated about it all. They haven't bothered to explain WHY his powers don't make him an official level 4, so what gives?
I couldn't help thinking to myself through the whole episode, though, "Well maybe the numbered ranking system itself needs to be revised". Seriously. If a level 2 esper has the destructive power of a level 4, wouldn't that just make him a level 4? I don't see what's so complicated about it all. They haven't bothered to explain WHY his powers don't make him an official level 4, so what gives?
I think official level rankings are assigned solely from test results, like we see in the first episode.
Good episode, though it could have been better. 8/10
I couldn't help thinking to myself through the whole episode, though, "Well maybe the numbered ranking system itself needs to be revised". Seriously. If a level 2 esper has the destructive power of a level 4, wouldn't that just make him a level 4? I don't see what's so complicated about it all. They haven't bothered to explain WHY his powers don't make him an official level 4, so what gives?
They are wondering how someone who was measured a level 2 suddenly acquired the power equivalent of a level 4. Rising in power isn't something you do in a day, it's like becoming a top sporter, or a great artist, it takes years of hard work to get to that level. For someone to suddenly jump from level 2 to level 4 is impossible, which has them confused.
DRAGUN H.E.X.
2009-11-22, 10:21
caught the subs,
lol at the brain freeze & INDIRECT KISS scenes, Kuroko has banged her head again (& will do it for 2nd time later at the restaurant)
so the FLAME MAN in the 1st ep, the TASER eyebrows girl & SPOON bomberman's cases are RELATED afterall?
& the Level upper-thing is also REAL?
much like the stripper scientist lady & the hero that has the power to cancel anything, Touma?
its kinda funny that the URBAN LEGEND has become THE LEGEND,
well this is TO ARU, it also has WIZARDS & MAGIC SPELLS later after you meet Index :heh:
the undercover AIRHEAD MISAKA at the restaurant is kawaii & Kuroko bangs her head again for the 2nd time in this ep
& during the VS gangsta lady & her buddies scene, Misaka's MAGNET MODE, so that explains the floating drinking can in ep 6 :heh:
the rape power of Saten is evil at over 9000, she even uses it at the already sick Uiharu
but is it just me? that there is something IMPORTANT that is MISSING in this ep?
correct me if i'm wrong
Fishfood1
2009-11-22, 12:22
at this rate, they should just assume all urban legend to be real :heh:
anyways loved mikoto's acting in the restaurant... wow that was really moe. :D
so the FLAME MAN in the 1st ep, the TASER eyebrows girl & SPOON bomberman's cases are RELATED afterall?
& the Level upper-thing is also REAL?
much like the stripper scientist lady & the hero that has the power to cancel anything, Touma?
but is it just me? that there is something IMPORTANT that is MISSING in this ep?
correct me if i'm wrong
Now that you mention it, that was something that bugged me. the flame guy from episode 1. there was no indication of him having raised his level with Level Upper, but they just threw it in. :( I liked that guy, and one of his reasons for turning to crime was lack of ability to level up. :confused: Does not make sense for him to have suddenly used Level Upper.
Hmm, I wonder who or what you could be refering to?;)
It's small, but there definitely is a sign pyro used the Level Upper.
MeisterBabylon
2009-11-22, 12:34
Ugh they are turning Level Upper into The One Evil trope. :heh:
That is something we don't yet know. Key to this arc, yes, but whether that will hold true for future arcs? Doubtful.
Isn't it a good thing to tie all the plots together? I thought people would like that, rather than complaining. And yes, if you know what to look for this has been foreshadowed since the 1st episode.
I agree that tieing the plots together is a good thing, however I doubt the level upper will be the string that ties them.
germanturkey
2009-11-22, 15:46
looks like Saten gets into a bind next week. will Mikoto be enough to save the day? i'm also having a hard time imagining the tiers of power. like, is Mikoto really that god tier compared to everyone else?
I agree that tieing the plots together is a good thing, however I doubt the level upper will be the string that ties them.
I meant just for this arc, not the whole thing. Tying all the separate one-episode plots into one arc is a good thing.
much like the stripper scientist lady & the hero that has the power to cancel anything, Touma?
And when you walk into a crossroad and you fall into an alternate dimension.
I meant just for this arc, not the whole thing. Tying all the separate one-episode plots into one arc is a good thing.
Oh, yes, definitely agreed on that.
Wilfriback
2009-11-22, 16:23
And when you walk into a crossroad and you fall into an alternate dimension.
Boila!! Asura Cryin' :uhoh:.....:heh:
kk2extreme
2009-11-22, 20:43
I thought the Uihara's flowers are grown from her head, I guess I was wrong :heh:
Click This
2009-11-22, 20:51
I thought the Uihara's flowers are grown from her head, I guess I was wrong :heh:
Didn't Uiharu adamantly decline that fact in episode 6?
DragoZERO
2009-11-22, 21:53
The head banging made the episode, hands down. But the lack of Touma was not cool.
Bridge the two series damnit! Get it? Bridge? That wasn't intentional, it just worked out that way. hahaha.
But, this is turning out to be pretty predictable. I hope they surprise me somewhere along the way.
Click This
2009-11-22, 21:57
The head banging made the episode, hands down. But the lack of Touma was not cool.
Bridge the two series damnit! Get it? Bridge? That wasn't intentional, it just worked out that way. hahaha.
But, this is turning out to be pretty predictable. I hope they surprise me somewhere along the way.
Is that a reference to the bridge scene?
DragoZERO
2009-11-22, 21:59
Is that a reference to the bridge scene?
Yes it was. Maybe they'll do it later on, who knows.
I'm sorry to bring this up again but I have been away for a while and couldn't reply.
When I said the manga never trew in a contradiction in Index I mean it never really contracdicted with the original (meaning the LN) so there was no need to change it. Of course since they made changes in the adaptation in Index anime JC should have made minor changes so the adaptation of Index and Railgun animes don't contradict with each other but not rewirte the scene.
In the Railgun spin-off (manga) they show things from a different view to avoid those contradiction and use the time between the shown events to develop the story. That's how they link Index and Railgun. Otherwise they're only using the same characters and a very similar setting. That's really not enough to say the two stories are connected.
Actually both Index and Railgun have dates that the story takes place so missing something out destryos the whole timeline. I mean they have so little opportunities to tie the two thing together and yet they skip them for no real reason. Doesn't that seem strange to you at least one bit?
And in the second part of my post a said there where a lot of strange things in this episode even if you don't compare it to any other material.
So instead of adding minor changes to avoid contradicting their own anime they changed the scene completely and added stuff that made no sense and depending on the next few episodes it might turn into quite a big plot hole. And that was the part I was unhappy about.
Still liked the episode though.
KholdStare
2009-11-23, 04:01
Well, I rated this episode a 10/10 for several reasons, most of them not plot-related:
-I'm finally sold with Ruiko. She was good before, but now I care about her.
-Kuroko and Mikoto... They keep things fresh. It's not the same thing happening to the pair of them every time, and it's hilarious every time.
-The story is interesting, but to me still not the main focus, which is exactly what I wanted.
-I'm trying very hard to think of something that could be done better, but I can't.
All in all, this is fast becoming one of my favorite anime of all time, and could average a 9/10 overall if the series keeps going at this pace. Right now, however, it's looking to end up near the entertainment level of ZnT S1.
What's this about Touma? As someone who has never read the novels, it didn't matter all. From my perspective, this episode was flawless. Apparently, this scene was supposed to be similar to a scene in Index, but right now Railgun is just so different and better from Index that I don't really care. There is no more connection between Index and Railgun. I'm seeing these anime as different as Clannad S1 and Clannad AS. As far as I know, the "modified" scene with Kuroko was so worth it. The anime, Railgun, as a standalone, is a masterpiece at work. And that is, in my opinion, all that matters.
DRAGUN H.E.X.
2009-11-23, 05:39
The head banging made the episode, hands down. But the lack of Touma was not cool.
Bridge the two series damnit! Get it? Bridge? That wasn't intentional, it just worked out that way. hahaha.
But, this is turning out to be pretty predictable. I hope they surprise me somewhere along the way.
well since we already seen the alley of love & death reference, it could be a huge posibility? :heh:
& about the Level upper victims: Flame guy, Taser girl, & Spoon boy, yeah, i know they already did so many nasty stuffs that could even kill somebody, but i hope that they would join our hero's group after they regret all of their wrong doings & went through all those @#$%^& stuffs,
then form an epic TEAM ROCKET-style trio after this :uhoh::heh:
DragoZERO
2009-11-23, 08:45
What's this about Touma? As someone who has never read the novels, it didn't matter all. From my perspective, this episode was flawless. Apparently, this scene was supposed to be similar to a scene in Index, but right now Railgun is just so different and better from Index that I don't really care. There is no more connection between Index and Railgun. I'm seeing these anime as different as Clannad S1 and Clannad AS. As far as I know, the "modified" scene with Kuroko was so worth it. The anime, Railgun, as a standalone, is a masterpiece at work. And that is, in my opinion, all that matters.Don't get me wrong, the episode and the series is great so far. Its just nice to see them put that extra effort to show they connect. I also think it would help promote the older series if people who didn't watch Index learn that part of it is in Index. Plus, its always cool to see the same event from a different character's point of view.
And Touma's sole value in this series is the reactions we get from Birbiri. :heh:
So the plot thickens...
But how the hell did they let their lead get away? From the looks of it, it seems as if she stayed there the whole time.
Avegaille
2009-11-23, 11:40
So the plot thickens...
But how the hell did they let their lead get away? From the looks of it, it seems as if she stayed there the whole time.
That confused me too, she was like standing there the whole time, maybe it was Kuroko who teleported Mikoto away and then both of the assumed she got away since they left the scene... o___O
Lol, I like this episode minus the removing Touma bit, well either way, they're probably going to make the connection somewhere... just not right now, as we can already see that there are some parts of the manga not used/switched/replaced/added in the anime. XD
Littledgn
2009-11-23, 12:21
I figured they talked to Asphalt Girl, but they're keeping the convo for the next ep.
Controlling asphalt rather does seem like a lame power though. If she could control all rocks it would be slightly more interesting. And then Mikoto would have a disadvantage...if it were pokemon.
KholdStare
2009-11-23, 15:06
I figured they talked to Asphalt Girl, but they're keeping the convo for the next ep.
That's what I hope will happen anyways. :(
Glad to see people noticing the flaws in this episode concerning the bad guys and the whole plot. I though it was just me
Edgewalker
2009-11-24, 04:21
I figured they talked to Asphalt Girl, but they're keeping the convo for the next ep.
Controlling asphalt rather does seem like a lame power though. If she could control all rocks it would be slightly more interesting. And then Mikoto would have a disadvantage...if it were pokemon.
I'm pretty sure that asphalt-esper boss fight was an anime original. That being said, I enjoyed it. It's kind of a limited power but at least it was well animated.
DJLowrider
2009-11-24, 09:22
It's official. I'm addicted to both this series and Index now. I have 2-3 more episodes of Index left to go to be fully caught up and despite the pacing and exposition issues (relatively minor things IMHO) I am loving this stuff.
Headbanging Kuroko and dere-dere Mikoto were hilarious here. Uiharu doesn't look quite right without her flowers though. Great story advancement, too.
chaos_animagic
2009-11-24, 17:11
I'm pretty sure that asphalt-esper boss fight was an anime original. That being said, I enjoyed it. It's kind of a limited power but at least it was well animated.
Yea, the scene in the manga is different from what we saw in the anime.
Tho the Asphalt-esper could be pretty powerful if she kept on training her power.
VVV
"it is almost impossible to separate and identify all the different molecules of asphalt, because the number of molecules with different chemical structure is extremely large"
In U.S. and Polish terminology, asphalt (or asphalt cement) is the carefully refined residue from the distillation process of selected crude oils.
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/9451/asphaltbase.jpg
Yea... there's a lot of different kinds of stuff in Asphalt and that include rocks and crude oils...
So basically she could control parts of buildings and rocks around her if she trains her power.
But from the looks of it, she can only control them if she's directly touching them.
(kinda like the alchemists in FMA - excluding the Eastern alchemists)
Can you guys somehow put all those manga references UNDER FUCKING SPOILER TAGS???
This thread is totally ruined for someone who didn't read manga/novels.
coderlan
2009-11-26, 10:44
Biribiri's acting is lolerz... it just made me chuckle hard lol, nice episode.
risingstar3110
2009-11-27, 09:25
Watched this episode at last, and thank God they took Touma out of the episode.
Hope he rest in peace with his Index series and stop trying to earn anymore of audience's sympathy here. Get in the plot once in a while is OK, but forcefully jump in (disregarding the need) just to earn few screen time is not cool
Darknemo2000
2009-11-27, 19:18
Watched this episode at last, and thank God they took Touma out of the episode.
Thats the reason I hated this episode.
hinakatbklyn
2009-12-02, 19:27
(manga) Touma gets involved Mikoto gets riled up and gets rid of everyone (almost). In a way a comedic or embarrased expression. (Anime) Mikoto mostly takes care of the gang before the add in character gets involved. In this case, more action.
If this anime series is trying to be original, there doing an excellent job with or without Touma. The only real change in the scene was mikoto's expression.
OkamiNoKaze
2010-09-02, 22:16
The gang leader girl, had quite the random power, control over the state of ashphalt, and I thought Heroes had some random abilities, wonder if we'll have an esper that can create mini black holes/wormholes/singularities
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