View Full Version : Claymore Chapter 99
After so many times, I have to say it again? It's not like I'm saying anything that's not said every other month! So, once again, and without further ado:
Well... what else do you plan to do for the whole month while waiting for the next chapter? :p
And like wise, I'll tell you (and just about everyone else here will too...) your logic is flawed. Here is why...
Teresa only ever said: "Deep inside she harbors a monster. In time she will become incredibly strong. I may be able to beat her now... but next time who knows" - ch. 21.
She was serious when she said this part... but...
She also says (after the fight):
"You can come after me as many times as you want. I'll cut you down every time." - ch 22.
This part was pure banter. I mean why would The Great Goddess Teresa actually hold a sword over someone head for over a minute just contemplating beheading them due to there potential and then radically decide they're not a threat and saying she'll kick there butt every time (while secretly thinking about a little girl the whole time...). Why... because it's not true and not indicative of your conclusion but instead it is indicative of Teresa still having doubt about winning against Priscilla next time but she wanted Clare's love more. Not Clare freaking out over her killing a defenseless warrior.
Man, you really don't understand what the goddess is all about... or did she flip flop on the issue... http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/5271/6p7ycszhd4.png Too Decapitate or Not, That Is The Question... (I say CHOOPY! http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/NF%20smilies/gar2fy5.gif) (Oh, and I copyright that line... 10 Million Beras per use http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/pictureem0.gif)
These are the only things Teresa has ever said on this topic (please feel free to prove me wrong). Please tell me which translation you are using which claims anything different (include chapter and page number). I fail to see how this aknowledgement of Priscilla's potential, should make anyone conclude she said: "I am going to be weaker".
This surpassing nonsense was only uttered by Irene or Rubel - neither or which had any clue as to Teresa's true power.
Let Priscilla train a lifetime as a Claymore, and sure, she'll become strong, but I believe she'll still get whooped by Teresa whenever she tries it (fairly) [Teresa seems to think she has an edge after the fight]. You are also making the same mistake the Congressional Budget Office regularly makes. You are assuming things will be static. There is no reason to believe that while Priscilla is training and training to get near Teresa's current level, Teresa herself will not grow even stronger.
Thus any fight - ever - between Claymore Teresa and Claymore Priscilla would have Teresa at the clear advantage. Likewise, there is no reason to assume that said clear advantage would not persist if both of them were to awaken.
--
There is an old proverb: "Like in the new year, it will be all year"
...why did this topic have to happen today of all days? :(
The rest of this is just crazy... I mean, Irene not knowing how strong an AO is (she's the freaking #2 after all) and still fearing only Priscilla... It's hogwash. Even in the likely event that Priscilla was beyond Irene's capability of sensing, she clearly knew the she was beyond her ability to comprehend her power and that is why she feared her so much as to abandon her duties and risk being a fugitive of the organizations. Plus Rubel wasn't stating his opinion of anything, he was stating the organizations opinion on the matter.
Plus... did you just imply that Teresa is training in spirit world (http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/NF%20smilies/rlz4ib.pngAgh... DBZ compression... training when your dead! WTF man? This is CLAYMORE... How can Teresa be training when inside of weak Clare? She's yet to get to a level where Teresa would even exert herself...) and that Priscilla hasn't had a radical change... Like I don't know... AWAKENING! :heh: Plus if you truly believe that Priscilla didn't get that stronger due to her latent energy... then what was it that made her so strong? Wheaties... :heh: Raki scent :p, Horsey Rides :D... or starving herself for 7 years :rolleyes:
I mean your very comparison of powers clearly states Claymore Teresa vs Claymore Priscilla... that extrapolates that therefore Awakened Teresa should be far strong than Awakened Priscilla too. Which is a flawed too... since it ignores the possibility of latent power argument (or some other X factor, in Priscilla's case) actually being true (since it has been mentioned... it is therefore a possibility. As much as I know you disbelieve Rubel's statement on the matter... you can't deny the possibility without having an argument that will fail to convince others of anything). Lets face the piper here, Yagi wants use to believe Awakened Priscilla is far greater than anything possible. End of story (till end of January/Early February, that is... :heh:)
Also, I'll repeat my self too. Teresa actions speak far louder than her dialog, especially after you got to hear Teresa thoughts... of Clare (NOT PRISCILLA'S POTENTIAL). Her actions were that of averting a catastrophe later, however Teresa choose to risk it for fear of losing the love of a little girl. It wasn't Teresa deciding Priscilla was no longer a threat. http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/edufe7.gif
_____________________________
@Gooral
:D I hope your right! http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/NF%20smilies/ws0ntdxy6.gifThough I'd love to see a colored Clare vs Priscilla pic! Like this one... (Top panel)
http://media4.onemanga.com/mangas/00000045/000161952/09.jpg
PLEASE LIVE CLARE, DENEVE, AND HELEN! :upset::(:upset: MAY TERESA WATCH OVER ALL OF YOU!;)
Oh... sorry about the smilies http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/NF%20smilies/6hq895.gif... You said you hated them previously but the idea of a special extra for chapter 100 gets me too excited! I figured extra long (just due to Clare and Priscilla's reunion but COLORED PAGES... you better have not gotten my hopes up... :()
Creangeru
2010-01-02, 04:58
The rest of this is just crazy... I mean, Irene not knowing how strong an AO is (she's the freaking #2 after all) and still fearing only Priscilla... It's hogwash. Even in the likely event that Priscilla was beyond Irene's capability of sensing, she clearly knew the she was beyond her ability to comprehend her power and that is why she feared her so much as to abandon her duties and risk being a fugitive of the organizations. Plus Rubel wasn't stating his opinion of anything, he was stating the organizations opinion on the matter.
Plus... did you just imply that Teresa is training in spirit world (http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/NF%20smilies/rlz4ib.pngAgh... DBZ compression... training when your dead! WTF man? This is CLAYMORE... How can Teresa be training when inside of weak Clare? She's yet to get to a level where Teresa would even exert herself...) and that Priscilla hasn't had a radical change... Like I don't know... AWAKENING! :heh: Plus if you truly believe that Priscilla didn't get that stronger due to her latent energy... then what was it that made her so strong? Wheaties... :heh: Raki scent :p, Horsey Rides :D... or starving herself for 7 years :rolleyes:
Who wants to quote the page with someone saying something about Prissy's potential all maxed out during her awakening?:innocent: I certainly don't want to, have it done enough before:o
About the translation, this is what I got from one of the chinese translations:
"He had the scent that reminded me of the past, which gave me back my consciousness. Although my memories weren't fully recovered, but I am certain that within this scent is something I have always been longing for. Ever since I met him I have followed him, and I no longer consumed with no purposes at all."
Second page reads: "For reaching the place that had this scent, she left her hunger unsatiated.
*sigh*
I really should just give a link to what I and other have said last month, but I have no confidence you'd actually click it and read the posts... so... here we go again:
Well... what else do you plan to do for the whole month while waiting for the next chapter? :p
And like wise, I'll tell you (and just about everyone else here will too...) your logic is flawed. Here is why...
She was serious when she said this part... but...
This part was pure banter. I mean why would The Great Goddess Teresa actually hold a sword over someone head for over a minute just contemplating beheading them due to there potential and then radically decide they're not a threat and saying she'll kick there butt every time (while secretly thinking about a little girl the whole time...). Why... because it's not true and not indicative of your conclusion but instead it is indicative of Teresa still having doubt about winning against Priscilla next time but she wanted Clare's love more. Not Clare freaking out over her killing a defenseless warrior.
Man, you really don't understand what the goddess is all about... or did she flip flop on the issue... http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/5271/6p7ycszhd4.png Too Decapitate or Not, That Is The Question... (I say CHOOPY! http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/NF%20smilies/gar2fy5.gif) (Oh, and I copyright that line... 10 Million Beras per use http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/pictureem0.gif)
Setting aside your diagnosis of "banter" from the only person in the story capable of judging both Teresa's and Priscilla's skills based on no other reason than it's simply inconvenient to your predetermined conclusion, I would like to point out a few things:
Most people understand how the game of Russian Roulette works - it's a simple game really. You take a revolver, and insert a single bullet into the chamber. You close the chamber and spin it to randomize it's position. Then you simply put the gun to your head and pull the trigger. If you live, you win a lot of money. If not... well... sucks to be you. The odds of winning in Russian Roulette with a standard revolver is 5 in 6 or 83%. Pretty good odds actually... Up for a game? Only once? How about 2 times? 10 times? Most people realize even if your odds are good, they are meaningless if repeated enough times. That hundred to one shot will eventually catch up to you, huh? Bad luck, huh...
The fact that Teresa wanted to decapitate even (for example) a 10% threat makes sense. She had won her game of Russian Roulette. By chopping, she would be saying no to a rematch, take her winnings and running. The fact that mushy misplaced feelings made her agree to round 2, does not mean her diagnosis was wrong. The mushy feelings over-riding common sense is what made her unfit for battle - not a sudden lapse in her youki reading.
None of your naruto, gurren lagen, and one piece references, nor the paraphrased Hamlet change any of that.
The rest of this is just crazy... I mean, Irene not knowing how strong an AO is (she's the freaking #2 after all) and still fearing only Priscilla... It's hogwash. Even in the likely event that Priscilla was beyond Irene's capability of sensing, she clearly knew the she was beyond her ability to comprehend her power and that is why she feared her so much as to abandon her duties and risk being a fugitive of the organizations. Plus Rubel wasn't stating his opinion of anything, he was stating the organizations opinion on the matter.
What are you babbling about? Irene not knowing how strong an AO is? Are you implying with a straight face an equality between an Awakened Teresa, and an Abyssal One? :confused: You cannot be serious! That would require the slight leap of faith that Teresa, after doing a full youki release would be much weaker than when doing a 10% youki release (with which she killed Rosemary in an instant with [and probably didn't require for the task]).
Get it through your skull already - Irene misjudged Teresa's power by her own admission! The whole purpose of extra chapter one was to show that Teresa can kick the but of AO level opponents without even trying too hard, and more importantly lying to the Organization about her power. Thus any opinion on Teresa's strength originating from the Organization is questionable at best, and probably completely wrong. Explain to me why something this simple, is so difficult for you to understand.
Plus... did you just imply that Teresa is training in spirit world (http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/NF%20smilies/rlz4ib.pngAgh... DBZ compression... training when your dead! WTF man? This is CLAYMORE... How can Teresa be training when inside of weak Clare? She's yet to get to a level where Teresa would even exert herself...) and that Priscilla hasn't had a radical change... Like I don't know... AWAKENING! :heh: Plus if you truly believe that Priscilla didn't get that stronger due to her latent energy... then what was it that made her so strong? Wheaties... :heh: Raki scent :p, Horsey Rides :D... or starving herself for 7 years :rolleyes:
huh?!? What in the name of Sam Hill are you talking about?!? I said nothing of Clare, Raki, Isley or anyone else. Please re-read my original post again until you understand it.
If Priscilla had remained a Claymore and not used a cheap trick, she would have lost and Teresa would have lived. Thus subsequent rematches between Teresa and Priscilla (both as Claymores) would presumbly occur. Teresa, being superior, would have the advantage in all such future rematches as she is clearly better.
Even Clarice can beat a dead body, so I fail to see what you're going on about.
I mean your very comparison of powers clearly states Claymore Teresa vs Claymore Priscilla... that extrapolates that therefore Awakened Teresa should be far strong than Awakened Priscilla too. Which is a flawed too... since it ignores the possibility of latent power argument (or some other X factor, in Priscilla's case) actually being true (since it has been mentioned... it is therefore a possibility. As much as I know you disbelieve Rubel's statement on the matter... you can't deny the possibility without having an argument that will fail to convince others of anything). Lets face the piper here, Yagi wants use to believe Awakened Priscilla is far greater than anything possible. End of story (till end of January/Early February, that is... :heh:)
So, let me get this straight... you want me to believe that:
Teresa at 0% > Priscilla at 10%
Teresa at 10% > Priscilla at 70%
but because of some strange non-linear multiplier that applies strictly to Priscilla and no one else, that 100% Teresa < 100% Priscilla? Do you not see any problems with this or something?
The other goddess, Galatea-sama, gave us a little insight into how this works in the witches maw arc. She said that the factor by which her power increases is the greatest out of all the present day Claymores. No matter how I stare at those numbers and extrapolate with any kind of sane multipliers, I cannot reach any other conclusion that 100% Teresa would wipe the floor with 100% Priscilla with one claw tied behind her back.
As for what Yagi wants us to believe, I think it's obvious he wants us to believe AB Priscilla is stronger than anyone alive today (* - with the possible exception a fully awakened Clare due only to the fact that she has the above mentioned Teresa's remains inside her). And as you others like to point out, Teresa does not fit that category.
@Cyclone, you (me, Sleepy, etc.) will have to tell it again, and again, and again, and again... Aren't you bored already? For some people assumptions are more important than test results. It's a mental thing, lots of people are still believing in fortunetelling, bioenergotherapy, homeopathy or global warming (caused by humans). Some people believe Priscilla had greater potential, because Irene and Theresa assumed Priscilla might be stronger some day, before anyone was able to compare their youki. This was just assumption, or in another word guessing. When they compared their youki both Irene and Theresa were sure that Priscilla was and never will be a match for Theresa. That was hard fact, but as I've said, for some people fact are irrelevant when facts goes against their beliefs.
Well, I must agree with one. Under some circumstances it is possible for Priscilla to became stronger than Theresa ever was. This sentence is also true for Uma. Or Clarice. Or any other claymore warrior. For some reasons I don't see discussions about: "Was Uma potential bigger than Theresa?". Why? Same probability to happen.
DragoZERO
2010-01-02, 08:53
You were acting fair, centric and unbiased....until that last bit :D :heh:And I care because...? I have my own opinion and my opinion is that Teresa is bad ass.
As for the "special present" in the 100th chapter, I'm thinking that maybe the chapter may be extra large or we will see a movie/2nd season of anime announcement, although the latter is doubtful because they said "is planned", i.e. it's not certain. Bonus pages are the most probable thing but maybe Yagi will surprise me. Also it will be great to see some pages in color. I especially want colored Clare and maybe Dee (Dietrich) but I hope Priscilla won't be in the picture.A second anime season would be awesome, but I doubt that would happen. But a "special present" could be anything...hell it could be a hot spring page with Miria and Galatea. :heh: Sorry, I just find that really funny, props to whoever came up with it first.
irvinethearcher
2010-01-02, 09:46
This part was pure banter. I mean why would The Great Goddess Teresa actually hold a sword over someone head for over a minute just contemplating beheading them due to there potential and then radically decide they're not a threat and saying she'll kick there butt every time (while secretly thinking about a little girl the whole time...). Why... because it's not true and not indicative of your conclusion but instead it is indicative of Teresa still having doubt about winning against Priscilla next time but she wanted Clare's love more. Not Clare freaking out over her killing a defenseless warrior.
A warrior of priscilla's base speed, strength and endurance and with the ability to hide her yoki would always be a thread even to theresa(Sneak attack).
Methuselah
2010-01-02, 12:33
I know that Clare won't die because of the fact that Pricilla knows who the name Clare is to Raki. Once someone shouts her name, Pricilla would stop just because of her respect/love(?) for Raki. She'd probably eat Helen and Devene but whatever.:eyespin:
Shiek927
2010-01-02, 12:41
About the translation, this is what I got from one of the chinese translations:
"He had the scent that reminded me of the past, which gave me back my consciousness. Although my memories weren't fully recovered, but I am certain that within this scent is something I have always been longing for. Ever since I met him I have followed him, and I no longer consumed with no purposes at all."
Second page reads: "For reaching the place that had this scent, she left her hunger unsatiated.
Basically; it seems like the first two pages are the big ones that change depending on where you're reading from.
Here...it leans toward Franky-Houses....but seems like a mixture. It's really curious, because she seems to clearly be talking about wanting to go to the Southlands in order to regain everything.
*sigh*
I really should just give a link to what I and other have said last month, but I have no confidence you'd actually click it and read the posts... so... here we go again:
What? Did you have other plans this month? :p I mean Clare and Priscilla's "reunion" is taking place after all... so how could Priscilla's power not be discussed at this month. If you want a break from it then go away for the month and come back once there "reunion" is over and then maybe something new on the matter.
This topic is very important to this and next chapter. Period. So it will be discussed frequently.
Setting aside your diagnosis of "banter" from the only person in the story capable of judging both Teresa's and Priscilla's skills based on no other reason than it's simply inconvenient to your predetermined conclusion, I would like to point out a few things:
Please tell me this will actually be a new analysis of Priscilla's power and not some random analogy to something else which you'll see as empirical evidence of you convictions.
Most people understand how the game of Russian Roulette works - it's a simple game really. You take a revolver, and insert a single bullet into the chamber. You close the chamber and spin it to randomize it's position. Then you simply put the gun to your head and pull the trigger. If you live, you win a lot of money. If not... well... sucks to be you. The odds of winning in Russian Roulette with a standard revolver is 5 in 6 or 83%. Pretty good odds actually... Up for a game? Only once? How about 2 times? 10 times? Most people realize even if your odds are good, they are meaningless if repeated enough times. That hundred to one shot will eventually catch up to you, huh? Bad luck, huh...
The fact that Teresa wanted to decapitate even (for example) a 10% threat makes sense. She had won her game of Russian Roulette. By chopping, she would be saying no to a rematch, take her winnings and running. The fact that mushy misplaced feelings made her agree to round 2, does not mean her diagnosis was wrong. The mushy feelings over-riding common sense is what made her unfit for battle - not a sudden lapse in her youki reading.
None of your naruto, gurren lagen, and one piece references, nor the paraphrased Hamlet change any of that.
Damn... it was the later.
Before I begin I'd like to ask how I had any naruto, gurren lagen, and one piece references... when I've never read any of them? Well I've seen gurren lagen but I didn't put a reference to it in there (since I hated it... after whats his name died). Talk about seeing things that aren't there. I submit that as peoples exhibit A as to your faulty logic and failure at analysis. Well, at least you noticed the Hamlet reference.
Now to your failure of an argument... So what odds does it take for Teresa to decide to behead some one? I mean clearly you know a 10% odds aren't enough for her. You and your arbitrary numbers make me laugh. The fact of the matter is very simple Priscilla was stronger than Rosemary and still just a trainee, Teresa knew it. She also knew she'd be back with more training later. So how can you still believe that Teresa's only reasoning for not killing her was her analysis of her power's potential? Especially when you know full well she was thinking of Clare then... Until the day you can reason her ability to diagnose Priscilla's power when thinking of Clare your logic is wrong.
What are you babbling about? Irene not knowing how strong an AO is? Are you implying with a straight face an equality between an Awakened Teresa, and an Abyssal One? :confused: You cannot be serious! That would require the slight leap of faith that Teresa, after doing a full youki release would be much weaker than when doing a 10% youki release (with which she killed Rosemary in an instant with [and probably didn't require for the task]).
Get it through your skull already - Irene misjudged Teresa's power by her own admission! The whole purpose of extra chapter one was to show that Teresa can kick the but of AO level opponents without even trying too hard, and more importantly lying to the Organization about her power. Thus any opinion on Teresa's strength originating from the Organization is questionable at best, and probably completely wrong. Explain to me why something this simple, is so difficult for you to understand.
How does saying Irene knows how strong an AO is equal to Awakened Teresa=Abyssal One. I fail to your your logic there.
:twitch: As to the rest of it... Irene misjudged Priscilla power too, we all know it. Plus after Priscilla awakened she called her a monster and trembled in fear... very odd after witnessing Teresa. :heh: Teresa and Priscilla were both misjudged by the organization, genius. The organization was very right by compering the two. Also read the databook here is what it says about Priscilla "An experimental warrior who surpasses even Teresa, number 1, in terms of latent power." It also calls Clare partially awakened, so don't give me that's the orgs opinion BS argument... unless your saying the org knows about Clare. It also says (referring to Priscilla ability to suppress her aura "In Priscilla's case, it is also hypothesized that it is a form of self-defense instinct to avoid be swung around by her very high latent power.")
Oh, and if... The whole purpose of extra chapter one was to show that Teresa can kick the but of AO level opponents without even trying too hard, and more importantly lying to the Organization about her power
Then how come Priscilla used far less energy but got far better results against 2 AO's. Her awakening wouldn't have made her that strong unless she gained LATENT POWER. I mean come on... Alicia and Beth went full out against Priscilla and they didn't even slow her down. When Teresa had to go to 10% (or >) to beat Rosemary.
huh?!? What in the name of Sam Hill are you talking about?!? I said nothing of Clare, Raki, Isley or anyone else. Please re-read my original post again until you understand it.
If Priscilla had remained a Claymore and not used a cheap trick, she would have lost and Teresa would have lived. Thus subsequent rematches between Teresa and Priscilla (both as Claymores) would presumbly occur. Teresa, being superior, would have the advantage in all such future rematches as she is clearly better.
Even Clarice can beat a dead body, so I fail to see what you're going on about.
Ok... I'll reread it... (did he imply Teresa was training when dead...)
You are also making the same mistake the Congressional Budget Office regularly makes. You are assuming things will be static. There is no reason to believe that while Priscilla is training and training to get near Teresa's current level, Teresa herself will not grow even stronger.
:uhoh:... you did say Teresa was training when she was dead... Dude if you can't remember what you said just last post then why should I bother reading those posts that you hold in such high regard from last month? Since if you can't recall something from a few hours ago then why would last month be any better...
Not to mention you not getting a simple joke of (Wheaties... Raki scent , Horsey Rides ... or starving herself for 7 years ). I mean the whole purpose of me posting that was to show you the ridiculousness of the notion that Priscilla has gotten stronger in the past years (after her awakening). She hasn't trained at all since then and starved herself for 7 of those years. So how come she is so strong, if not for her latent energy?
So, let me get this straight... you want me to believe that:
Teresa at 0% > Priscilla at 10%
Teresa at 10% > Priscilla at 70%
but because of some strange non-linear multiplier that applies strictly to Priscilla and no one else, that 100% Teresa < 100% Priscilla? Do you not see any problems with this or something?
The other goddess, Galatea-sama, gave us a little insight into how this works in the witches maw arc. She said that the factor by which her power increases is the greatest out of all the present day Claymores. No matter how I stare at those numbers and extrapolate with any kind of sane multipliers, I cannot reach any other conclusion that 100% Teresa would wipe the floor with 100% Priscilla with one claw tied behind her back.
Dude math and arbitrary numbers aren't your strong point... please refrain from using them. :heh:
Your equation is dead wrong because Claymore Priscilla ≠ Awakened Priscilla. So come up with any equation you want but the moment you plug Claymore Priscilla on one end and Awakened Priscilla on the other your whole conclusion becomes wrong.
but because of some strange non-linear multiplier that applies strictly to Priscilla and no one else, that 100% Teresa < 100% Priscilla? Do you not see any problems with this or something?
No because Yagi said this X factor was there, and then showed us how strong Priscilla now is... which was very similar to Teresa vs Rosemary... only Priscilla used far less power and killed two AOs (less power usage and at least twice the kills). Not just that but Priscilla let them attack her when Teresa didn't give Rosemary the chance after the one slam. Plus lets not for get... Priscilla being immune to being taken over by The Destroyer because the difference in power is just too great. I mean come on... if an AO can't take you over then what can?
In short, I'm actually reading what's been going on (and analyzing) and you've been clinging to outdated dogma. No offense but your view has failed to ever adapt to the new chapters and mine has always gotten stronger due to the new chapters. In fact, previously you've freely admitted to me that this opinion you have is the same one you had years ago when you first read Claymore, then you stated that is why you like Claymore (as a story) and you aren't changing your mind on the matter. So why should I take your opinion seriously at all? You told me yourself that your not analyzing anymore...
EDIT: Oh and least I forget... Teresa at 10% > Priscilla at 70% is in factual. The RAW says that Teresa's power was changing her eye's color. Not that it was just enough to change her eye color. So Teresa was Between 10% and 29.9%. The "just enough" to change her eye color was just to make the English sound better. My source on this was Gernot. Also we know Priscilla was over 70% and less than 80% but exactly where unknown too. Putting Teresa at the lowest end of the a larger spectrum just makes it look like you favor Teresa and aren't being non-partisan.
As for what Yagi wants us to believe, I think it's obvious he wants us to believe AB Priscilla is stronger than anyone alive today (* - with the possible exception a fully awakened Clare due only to the fact that she has the above mentioned Teresa's remains inside her). And as you others like to point out, Teresa does not fit that category.
:heh: So I'm right, but not right. :heh::heh::heh::heh:
Just noticed this on Gernot's translation of Chapter 99...
JUMP SQ ３月号 特報！！
Jump Square March Edition News Flash!!
連載１００回記念巻頭カラー！！
Opening pages in color to commemorate the 100th chapter!!
八木教広「CLAYMORE」スペシャルプレゼント企画もアリ！！
Norihiro Yagi “Claymore” Special Present is also planned!!
http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/NF%20smilies/ws0ntdxy6.gif :D:D:D:D:D:D:D http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/NF%20smilies/ws0ntdxy6.gif
EDIT 1: Least I forget... the March edition comes out Early February (or end of January), so no one freak out thinking it's two months away...
EDIT 2: I wonder what this "“Claymore” Special Present" is? http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/NF%20smilies/x31pt9.gif
irvinethearcher
2010-01-02, 14:45
My 2 cents:
When Teresa had to go to 10% (or >) to beat Rosemary.
It is not a fact that theresa had to go to 10% in order to beat Rosemary. She could have toyed with her the whole time pretending to be weaker than she really was. To me it seemed more that she wanted to scare rosemary. Her arm twist indicates that she perhaps could have beaten her without the release of yoki. And priscilla now is an ab which has full control over her yoki and can use it to change body parts as she likes during a fight. theresa has only her claymore and can not afford to loose body parts like priscilla did.
My 2 cents:
It is not a fact that theresa had to go to 10% in order to beat Rosemary. She could have toyed with her the whole time pretending to be weaker than she really was. To me it seemed more that she wanted to scare rosemary. Her arm twist indicates that. And priscilla now is an ab which has full control over her yoki and can use it to change body parts as she likes during a fight. theresa has only her claymore and can not afford to loose body parts like priscilla did.
That still means she had to release enough yoki to beat Rosemary dude. If she felt a need to dominate the fight and end it right then, than it means she didn't feel secure just relying on her abilities and had to overpower her opponent in order to win. It's irrelevant if she could have possibly won without releasing yoki cause she chose not to fight that way and went for the guaranteed win instead. Also when Priscilla did just that against Beth, the Alicia, and then Beth again she didn't fully awaken or show any changes to her flesh, so she didn't have to release any yoki to go straight for the win unlike Teresa. Your point is moot.
As to Teresa not being able to regenerate is an assumption on your part (though I agree with it but for different reasons that I won't get into) that Teresa didn't have so much yoki that she couldn't regenerate as a warrior. After all Irene said offensive warriors can regenerate human strength limbs if they were strong enough... now take that logic to the outlier Teresa was and there is a chance she could full regenerate a limb if needed to.
irvinethearcher
2010-01-02, 15:04
Also when Priscilla did just that against Beth, the Alicia, and then Beth again she didn't fully awaken or show any changes to her flesh, so she didn't have to release any yoki to go straight for the win unlike Teresa. Your point is moot.
I said she released the yoki for the mere fun of scaring rosemary, not to have certain victory.
Priscilla changed her shape in that fight and she lost a leg and an arm(?). Look 4ex what she did with Beth tail. You couldn't have overseen this.
She released yoki therefore clare could measure her. At least to heal she had to release her yoki. I doubt that she can do the same as a AF, i highly doubt it.
rougetaal
2010-01-02, 15:13
That still means she had to release enough yoki to beat Rosemary dude. If she felt a need to dominate the fight and end it right then, than it means she didn't feel secure just relying on her abilities and had to overpower her opponent in order to win. It's irrelevant if she could have possibly won without releasing yoki cause she chose not to fight that way and went for the guaranteed win instead. Also when Priscilla did just that against Beth, the Alicia, and then Beth again she didn't fully awaken or show any changes to her flesh, so she didn't have to release any yoki to go straight for the win unlike Teresa. Your point is moot.
You seem to be missing an important point.
Theresa was just a claymore then, and here Priscilla is an awakened being.
The difference in ability and physical attributes is vastly different.
Priscilla strength is on a completly different level, it's so much stronger than it could have been even if she was releasing 80% of her yoma energy when she was simply a claymore.
Still the fight Teresa against Rosemary is a good indicator of Theresa's strength.
It's confusing, because we don't really know if Rosemary was Abyssal One material.
But, judging by the worried uterance of Theresa's handler she would have made a powerful Awakened Being, her being an former number 1 and all that.
And still, Theresa played her like a toy.
Another indicator of her strength is the squad that was sent against her. Number 2 through 5. The real indicator here is the squad itself, four against one, just like an Awakened hunt. And there still she comes on top, not only that but uninjured.
Can you imagine the sort of awakened being requiring the mobilization of the Organization Top Four single digits. Yeah the level of Top 5 awakened beings if not Abyssal One.
I said she released the yoki for the mere fun of scaring rosemary, not to have certain victory.
Priscilla changed her shape in that fight and she lost a leg and an arm(?). Look 4ex what she did with Beth tail. You couldn't have overseen this.
She released yoki therefore clare could measure her. At least to heal she had to release her yoki. I doubt that she can do the same as a AF, i highly doubt it.
:heh:
Priscilla said "what's impossible is impossible". She had nothing to fear from any damage she took from Beth/Alicia. They could chop at her all day and Priscilla would still win. Her power was beyond anything they could do to her. Therefore it's irrelevant how much damage they did because in the end... Priscilla let them do it to her. Teresa didn't let Rosemary throw her into a boulder on the other hand. Alicia and Beth could only win against Priscilla if they were AFs, and there was dozens of them and not 2, and they had years of reinforcements and could pick off Priscilla once they had truly depleted her of her strength. Or they got a lot stronger...
As to Teresa scaring Rosemary for being her sole her reason to releasing her yoki... I see it as more of a benefit of releasing her yoki and going for the easy win, rather than Teresa only doing it to scare Rosemary. The very fact Teresa said "this is bad" proves Rosemary was strong enough to potentially harm her so she choose to end the fight quickly (which is another reason why Cyclone's whole "I'll beat you any time" argument is stupid cause previously she choose not to risk it and Awakened Rosemary was clearly weaker than Claymore Priscilla.). Not that Teresa only released her yoki to scare Rosemary. It is very much the opposite... Rosemary was a threat unless she used more yoki.
irvinethearcher
2010-01-02, 15:22
Priscilla released yoki to fight those two. I personally believe that she would not have needed it but the same i think about theresa.
you have certainly a point here but i interpret for myself this chapter differently.
IMO the arm twist showed me that theresa probably would have had no problems to rip rosemary apart with bare hands and no yoki release at all.
Not that Teresa only released her yoki to scare Rosemary. It is very much the opposite... Rosemary was a threat unless she used more yoki.
Her cape was torn slightly at the end, otherwise she didn't have a scratch. I think the only threat to Teresa that Rosemary had was that her handler would have figured out Teresa was even more powerful than they realized.
Anyway, I see the discussion turned into Teresa vs Priscilla once again. :heh:
My whole point with my previous post was to question what potential meant, if it was solely based on the individual or merely their inherited flesh. Will Priscilla versus Clare be decided on the power Clare has inherited or her own merits as an individual?
That's all I was getting at.
You seem to be missing an important point.
Theresa was just a claymore then, and here Priscilla is an awakened being.
The difference in ability and physical attributes is vastly different.
Priscilla strength is on a completly different level, it's so much stronger than it could have been even if she was releasing 80% of her yoma energy when she was simply a claymore.
Your missing a point yourself... and missing what I'm really arguing about....
Only the 3 AOs have ever fought in human form and all 3 of them needed to awaken part of there body in order to do so. Priscilla has broken this rule. She is that much stronger then the rest. So the comparison is valid. Priscilla has been fighting without even really tapping into her power. The leap from being close to Rosemary to being the devil/god is just too huge no normal awakening could have released that much power.
I'm saying that the latent power (as mentioned by Rubel) being released must have been a real occurrence and that Cyclone is wrong that she didn't have any latent power released upon her than awakening and that she only got stronger by the same degree as any other awaken being did upon there awakening.
My point being... Awakened Teresa might not be able to beat Awakened Priscilla. Nothing more, nothing less. In short Priscilla's awakening had an X factor to it. Things just don't add up unless that is true. Therefore even when Clare reaches Teresa's level she'll still lose to Priscilla.
Her cape was torn slightly at the end, otherwise she didn't have a scratch. I think the only threat to Teresa that Rosemary had was that her handler would have figured out Teresa was even more powerful than they realized.
Anyway, I see the discussion turned into Teresa vs Priscilla once again. :heh:
:uhoh:
No scratch uh... I see blood on her face. Lower right panel and bottom left panel. or was that Rosemary's? :p
My whole point with my previous post was to question what potential meant, if it was solely based on the individual or merely their inherited flesh. Will Priscilla versus Clare be decided on the power Clare has inherited or her own merits as an individual?
That's all I was getting at.
I say Clare's own merits as an individual. Cyclone (with whom I was debating) has previously argued the power Clare has inherited. He states that when Clare gets Teresa's full power she'll win. I say that's not enough and doesn't appreciate Clare's challenges as an individual. Clare winning upon gaining Teresa's power is a cop out.
Sorry Solace but I see Priscilla's power as very important to both Chapter 99 and the up coming Chapter 100. I'm trying to keep it with fresh ideas from the most recent chapters... it's just that the Teresa=unbeatable god crowd, only has "evidence" as such from the Teresa arcs and extra chapter 1... So I have to debate that too to debate this. However I'm not limiting my argument to Teresa vs Prscilla... what really happened, so I see here as the valid place to argue my points. Since my point is Priscilla (and what Teresa did is just and how Priscilla did it better will come up) and look at what's she's just done in the recent chapters. In short I'm not solely debating what happened in the Teresa arc but whats happening in EC 1, Chapters 95+, EC 3, Slashers arc, witches maw arc (tough that hasn't come up yet), and Pieta. So here is the far more logical place to post.
Ah, the trench warfare resumes. Lets hope all are nice and comfy.
irvinethearcher
2010-01-02, 15:47
It is questionable if clare can reach theresa's level as long as those two not completely fuse like raciella.
Up to now clare still suffers from being only 1/4 yoma.
Shiek927
2010-01-02, 15:48
I second what Ryus said Solace; this discussion doesn't keep coming up because we're bored(well, maybe a little :heh:), but because it's critical to the story, in particular to what's gonna happen next with this upcoming brawl.
Is this fight(if their even is one) gonna answer all the questions? Probably not, but this discussion is key because, as much as I prefer the idea of Claire being her own individual and not having Teresa as some sort of crutch, Teresa and her own power, is inevitably tied into Claire's fate and what she is capable of, which is linked with how much power and potential Priscilla has or had, whatever it is.
In other words, this whole discussion, and all it's variations, are linked with not only the past, but what's gonna happen.
I personally, do not like the whole Teresa=God view of looking at things because, no matter how one-sided this upcoming brawl may look like, I like the view of Claire being first and foremost - in other words, everything that happens to her is attributed to her; her strengths, weaknesses, growth, challenges...I'm not fond of Teresa popping up into question everytime something of any worth happens to her. She is not her avatar.
It is questionable if clare can reach theresa's level as long as those two not completely fuse like raciella.
Up to now clare still suffers from being only 1/4 yoma.
You think that will stop Clare from trying to get stronger? :heh: :p :heh:
Priscilla released yoki to fight those two. I personally believe that she would not have needed it but the same i think about theresa.
you have certainly a point here but i interpret for myself this chapter differently.
IMO the arm twist showed me that theresa probably would have had no problems to rip rosemary apart with bare hands and no yoki release at all.
I see Teresa not being able to dodge Rosemary as proof that Rosemary could have harmed Teresa. Whether or not Teresa could have harmed her back to me is irrelevant because Teresa didn't have the speed to need for a deceive victory. Rosemary did hurt Teresa and Teresa wasn't able to avoid the attack. Sure she hurt Rosemary more but she choose to not get hurt by her any more. Therefore she released her yoki to beat Rosemary then and there.
I suppose Teresa could have dragged out the fight and removed Rosemary's other main hand too. But Rosemary was a seasoned vet determined to kill her who had harmed her... why risk it? So she went for the win then Teresa just choice to gloat before killing her.
irvinethearcher
2010-01-02, 16:13
I see Teresa not being able to dodge Rosemary as proof that Rosemary could have harmed Teresa. Whether or not Teresa could have harmed her back to me is irrelevant because Teresa didn't have the speed to need for a deceive victory. Rosemary did hurt Teresa and Teresa wasn't able to avoid the attack. Sure she hurt Rosemary more but she choose to not get hurt by her any more. Therefore she released her yoki to beat Rosemary then and there.
I suppose Teresa could have dragged out the fight and removed Rosemary's other main hand too. But Rosemary was a seasoned vet determined to kill her who had harmed her... why risk it? So she went for the win then Teresa just choice to gloat before killing her.
Theresa faked it IMO only to have some fun. If she was or wasn't able to avoid rosemary's attack we can't judge. To me the whole thing about getting pushed in the rocks or getting scratched and having problems was a fake from theresa when i saw her twisting rosemary's arm off without releasing any yoki at all, that is IMO important.
There is already a thread dedicated to the Teresa vs. Priscilla fight, please take it there. (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=80582)
I have to say that there are a few users that have made reading the monthly discussion threads nearly useless beyond a couple of pages after the chapter has been released. I used to enjoy reading the discussion threads but a few people refuse to keep the Teresa vs. Priscilla discussion where it belongs (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=80582). They keep bring up the same arguments and going around in circles. I can only stand to read the same 10 pages of arguments that don't belong in the thread so many times before I decide to completely give up with even trying to read discussion threads for the monthly chapters.
Shiek927
2010-01-02, 16:32
Even Clarice can beat a dead body, so I fail to see what you're going on about.
Well, that wasn't very nice :D :D :D :heh:
--
It's funny Mord; their was a time when that thread was asked for alot because everyone thought it would be more convenient to have a seperate thread for it - now it's more convenient and quicker to just post it here :heh:
But look more closely; this isn't the same argument rehashed - it's not about the comparison, it's about the fight that may or may not happen next month....so it's actually more sensible to just have it here.
Don't lie to yourself, It is still the same argument. Just that this time people are using the excuse that it belongs in this thread because Clare is likely to flip out and attack Priscilla. Doesn't mean I want to read the argument again.
You really are missing the point Ryus (not that it's the first time though) and ignoring/deflecting what Cyclone, rougetaal, me and others are saying. You're comparing the act of an awakened being in human form to the act of a claymore while releasing 10% of her youki. Claiming that "because awakened Priscilla could defeat 3 abyssal ones without showing youki outbursts while Teresa had to release 10% of her youki to defeat potential abyssal one" means Teresa was weaker is utterly stupid. Like I said not long ago (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=2809099#post2809099) AB play by different rules than claymores. They can do things that were out of their reach as claymores. After many partial-awakenings Deneve is very close to the strength she would have while staying in human form as an awakened being. That strength is significantly different than the strength of when she was before her first half-awakening (thus she can instantly regenerate even serious injuries). She has always youki at maximum limit now (if we are to believe her words) and I assume that if she fully awakened she could utilize that power even better. So comparing what she could do 7 years ago and now is beyond the point.
But to grab it from a bit different perspective, do you think that we could compare for example Raki's performance when he killed a youma and Clare's when she slain 4 youma, and say that after becoming a claymore Raki would be weaker than Clare? Don't think so.
(...)
Only the 3 AOs have ever fought in human form and all 3 of them needed to awaken part of there body in order to do so. (...)
lol
Only three? And how many AO are there? I can't see your point Ryus. Are you saying that in order to fight AO had to release their powers and Priscilla didn't have to? Well, against other abyssals in their awakened form they would have to do it but against other awakened beings - I wouldn't be so sure. Anyway, knowing that Priscilla is much stronger than abyssals doesn't tell us that Teresa is weaker than her so what was that all about Ryus? After reading the newest chapter we know that Priscilla can take head on 3 weakened and/or unstable abyssals in a row.
Teresa toyed with Rosemary and that's a fact. She released her youki only to feel the flow again. She didn't have to do it since she was already stronger than her (*cough* twist *cough*).
(...) I'm saying that the latent power (as mentioned by Rubel) being released must have been a real occurrence and that Cyclone is wrong that she didn't have any latent power released upon her than awakening and that she only got stronger by the same degree as any other awaken being did upon there awakening. (...)
Nobody said AFAIK that Priscilla got stronger "by the same degree", we've said that Priscilla's case wasn't anything special besides that she had tremendous amounts of youki. The difference between her at 80% and her fully awakened form wasn't necessarily that big as you claim it to be (it may have been or not but we can't know that since we've never seen a claymore fighting at 80% and then compare his strength as an awakened being. If Teresa was indeed the strongest being ever it wouldn't be strange that she managed to defeat that 80% Priscilla). The same goes for other awakened beings but some have higher factor by which their power increase and some lower. We know that Teresa had this factor incredibly big since she could squash 70-79% Priscilla while using only 10-29% of her youki. If anything, all signs inn heaven and on earth suggest that Teresa would become stronger AB than Priscilla.
(...) My point being... Awakened Teresa might not be able to beat Awakened Priscilla. Nothing more, nothing less. In short Priscilla's awakening had an X factor to it. Things just don't add up unless that is true. Therefore even when Clare reaches Teresa's level she'll still lose to Priscilla.
You're contradicting yourself. In the second sentence you're saying that Teresa might or might not be able to beat Awakened Priscilla but in the last sentence you're writing that Clare at Teresa's level would lose to Priscilla (definitely).
As for the words that gernot kindly translated at my request, yeah, we know now that we can't be sure how much youki Teresa released exactly. But IMO it was closer to 10% than 29%. Why? Firstly, it would be strange (not unbelievable but strange IMO) that claymores would be able to control their power with only 1% margin of error. Secondly, it would be strange if the symptom (golden eyes or distorted face) would be conveniently in these boundaries to 1% (i.e. at 29.9% the face would still be undistorted but at 30.0% distortions would magically appear). I for one would think that if Teresa was getting close to 30% we would see some indications of possible face distortion. The fact was however Teresa showed no signs of change.
In short, who's to say that the demon power increases in regular and small changes by an increment of 1%. Maybe it's 10%, or 20%?
(...)
Another indicator of her strength is the squad that was sent against her. Number 2 through 5. The real indicator here is the squad itself, four against one, just like an Awakened hunt. And there still she comes on top, not only that but uninjured.
Can you imagine the sort of awakened being requiring the mobilization of the Organization Top Four single digits. Yeah the level of Top 5 awakened beings if not Abyssal One.
That's an excellent point. Sure, I've known what warriors were sent and that Teresa squashed them easily but it never occurred to me to compare it to awakened being hunts. Usually hunting parties consist of only 1 single digit (for the hunt of a single digit AB in Gonahl only Ophelia was sent +the weakest claymore of all) but to defeat Teresa MiB decided to send the top 4 warriors, i.e. according to MiB Teresa could have been a threat like 4 very strong (single digit) AB.
Shiek927
2010-01-02, 18:33
Don't lie to yourself, It is still the same argument. Just that this time people are using the excuse that it belongs in this thread because Clare is likely to flip out and attack Priscilla. Doesn't mean I want to read the argument again.
Roflmao, I'm not trying to lie to anyone, I'm telling it how it is: their is even more reason this month to talk about the debate, since it could link to what may possibly occur next month.
What? Did you have other plans this month? :p I mean Clare and Priscilla's "reunion" is taking place after all... so how could Priscilla's power not be discussed at this month. If you want a break from it then go away for the month and come back once there "reunion" is over and then maybe something new on the matter.
This topic is very important to this and next chapter. Period. So it will be discussed frequently.
Not a bad idea actually.
There really is no point in arguing with you, afterall. Your posts are not informative, and honestly I am getting bored with stating the obvious like a broken record player...
Before I begin I'd like to ask how I had any naruto, gurren lagen, and one piece references... when I've never read any of them? Well I've seen gurren lagen but I didn't put a reference to it in there (since I hated it... after whats his name died). Talk about seeing things that aren't there. I submit that as peoples exhibit A as to your faulty logic and failure at analysis. Well, at least you noticed the Hamlet reference.
This is just depressing. You use smilies and not know what they are... well done.
Well, the idiot with the sword is a character from Naruto. The glean in the eyes of the other one is like from Gurren Lagen (and others I suppose...).
The One Piece is a bit of a mistake on my part - their currency is Beli/Beri. Whatever.
Now to your failure of an argument... So what odds does it take for Teresa to decide to behead some one? I mean clearly [I]you know a 10% odds aren't enough for her. You and your arbitrary numbers make me laugh. The fact of the matter is very simple Priscilla was stronger than Rosemary and still just a trainee, Teresa knew it. She also knew she'd be back with more training later. So how can you still believe that Teresa's only reasoning for not killing her was her analysis of her power's potential? Especially when you know full well she was thinking of Clare then... Until the day you can reason her ability to diagnose Priscilla's power when thinking of Clare your logic is wrong.
You really do have a reading problem, don't you?
I never claimed the odds were 10% - I said it was FOR EXAMPLE.
Your statements are utterly irrelevant, inane, superfluous, and provide no logical route to your ridiculous conclusions.
When have I ever said Priscilla was weaker than Rosemary?
When have I ever said Priscilla posed no threat to Teresa? I've been talking about the degree of this threat the whole time.
Teresa decided to take a chance for Clare's sake and not finish it when she had the chance. The only way that I believe she would take this chance is if she decided that on their next encounter she could still win. I believe that Teresa was taking a risk, not committing suicide. Afterall, if Teresa wanted to die that badly, she'd have let the first execution squad finish her off. She must have thought her chances of survival on subsequent encounters was good (not 100%, but good enough not to kill someone infront of Clare).
How does saying Irene knows how strong an AO is equal to Awakened Teresa=Abyssal One. I fail to your your logic there.
You're the one who dragged up her 100% worthless quote into this as well as her ability to judge AOs (which we have no evidence she ever met before). So please - feel free to tell me what you were going on about...
:twitch: As to the rest of it... Irene misjudged Priscilla power too, we all know it. Plus after Priscilla awakened she called her a monster and trembled in fear... very odd after witnessing Teresa. :heh: Teresa and Priscilla were both misjudged by the organization, genius. The organization was very right by compering the two. Also read the databook here is what it says about Priscilla "An experimental warrior who surpasses even Teresa, number 1, in terms of latent power." It also calls Clare partially awakened, so don't give me that's the orgs opinion BS argument... unless your saying the org knows about Clare. It also says (referring to Priscilla ability to suppress her aura "In Priscilla's case, it is also hypothesized that it is a form of self-defense instinct to avoid be swung around by her very high latent power.")
Ah yes - the "we all know it - therefore I'm right" argument. Please feel free to explain to me how exactly "we all know this". Relying on the Org's databooks (which, once again I remind you are written from the persepective of the Organization - the same Organization that Teresa was lying to about her power [we have no such evidence for Priscilla]) is downright idiotic.
And for Pete's sake - what the heck are you dragging Clare into this again for? Are you trying to claim that Clare == Teresa at this point or something (and relying on the databooks of all things to prove it)? Have you lost your mind?
Oh, and if...
Then how come Priscilla used far less energy but got far better results against 2 AO's. Her awakening wouldn't have made her that strong unless she gained LATENT POWER. I mean come on... Alicia and Beth went full out against Priscilla and they didn't even slow her down. When Teresa had to go to 10% (or >) to beat Rosemary.
I would like to remind you, that an AB is at 100% of their youki power. As such, if we borrow Hedgy's simplified arithmetic for a minute, a fully Awakened Teresa should be able to take care of 10 or more Rosemarys. Your point?
Ok... I'll reread it... (did he imply Teresa was training when dead...)
:uhoh:... you did say Teresa was training when she was dead... Dude if you can't remember what you said just last post then why should I bother reading those posts that you hold in such high regard from last month? Since if you can't recall something from a few hours ago then why would last month be any better...
As I said - you have a reading problem. Quote me then.
If you want to start arguing against made up quotes, please argue with someone else.
Not to mention you not getting a simple joke of (Wheaties... Raki scent , Horsey Rides ... or starving herself for 7 years ). I mean the whole purpose of me posting that was to show you the ridiculousness of the notion that Priscilla has gotten stronger in the past years (after her awakening). She hasn't trained at all since then and starved herself for 7 of those years. So how come she is so strong, if not for her latent energy?
Oh I see how you screwed up in reading my post now!
The word "IF" in english is a conditional statement. It means that when the first part of the sentence is true, the second part of the sentence (often contains a 'THEN') is also true. I used it to play out a hypothetical situation, that did not come to pass.
Exercise 1a) Read and understand the following sentence:
"If there were future encounters between claymore Teresa and claymore Priscilla, then Teresa would win because Teresa would be getting stronger as well."
Solution to Exercise 1a):
Future encounters for claymore Teresa and claymore Priscilla could only happen had Priscilla not fully awakened and killed Teresa. This statement is that of a hypothetical situation that did not happen because Priscilla awakened and killed Teresa, thereby invalidating the conditional part of the statement. Furthermore, the author of statement 1a) believes that had Priscilla chose not awaken and thereby fullful the criteria of the conditional clause, then Teresa would have won subsequent encounters.
That help? Homework for next post - please re-read any posts with conditional if statements and analyze them for fulfilled preconditions.
Dude math and arbitrary numbers aren't your strong point... please refrain from using them. :heh:
Your equation is dead wrong because Claymore Priscilla ≠ Awakened Priscilla. So come up with any equation you want but the moment you plug Claymore Priscilla on one end and Awakened Priscilla on the other your whole conclusion becomes wrong.
As opposed to your conclusions because you just know Priscilla gets a magic power up bonus that no one else gets (i.e. claymore x = awakened x, for all x other than Priscilla)... I'll stick with my shaky math compared to your religous faith, thanks.
No because Yagi said this X factor was there, and then showed us how strong Priscilla now is... which was very similar to Teresa vs Rosemary... only Priscilla used far less power and killed two AOs (less power usage and at least twice the kills). Not just that but Priscilla let them attack her when Teresa didn't give Rosemary the chance after the one slam. Plus lets not for get... Priscilla being immune to being taken over by The Destroyer because the difference in power is just too great. I mean come on... if an AO can't take you over then what can?
I am truly in awe of your arguments. Let me give you the equivalent:
Claymore Clarice is stronger than a youma.
Awakened Prisicilla is stronger than a different youma.
Therefore, Claymore Clarice is stronger than Awakened Priscilla. Q.E.D.
Just what is you problem? When did I ever say Priscilla is weak? All I have ever said, and continue to say is that Teresa was stronger.
In short, I'm actually reading what's been going on (and analyzing) and you've been clinging to outdated dogma. No offense but your view has failed to ever adapt to the new chapters and mine has always gotten stronger due to the new chapters. In fact, previously you've freely admitted to me that this opinion you have is the same one you had years ago when you first read Claymore, then you stated that is why you like Claymore (as a story) and you aren't changing your mind on the matter. So why should I take your opinion seriously at all? You told me yourself that your not analyzing anymore...
In short, your predictions so far have been nothing but wrong, while mine actually predicted certain things - like Priscilla eating the villagers, still thinking of Raki, etc. (and counting)
As for not changing my mind on the matter in years, what new material is there to judge Teresa? When I see Priscilla's fight against Alicia and Beth, it provides me with clues as to Teresa's strenght. You seem to be the one who fixed Teresa's strength at some constant value years ago, have not updated that view, and now, like Irene, finding out you misjudged Teresa's power too.
Teresa won easily against Rosemary - what makes you think she couldn't handle Alicia and Beth?
EDIT: Oh and least I forget... Teresa at 10% > Priscilla at 70% is in factual. The RAW says that Teresa's power was changing her eye's color. Not that it was just enough to change her eye color. So Teresa was Between 10% and 29.9%. The "just enough" to change her eye color was just to make the English sound better. My source on this was Gernot. Also we know Priscilla was over 70% and less than 80% but exactly where unknown too. Putting Teresa at the lowest end of the a larger spectrum just makes it look like you favor Teresa and aren't being non-partisan.
I will just note that yes, I used the lower boundry for both characters. I suppose I should have done it like you - the field-marshal of impartialness - and compared Teresa's high number with Priscilla's low number.
It's pretty sad, that even after your "unbiasing" of my statement, the statement still amounts to the same thing (i.e. Teresa is stronger).
My whole point with my previous post was to question what potential meant, if it was solely based on the individual or merely their inherited flesh. Will Priscilla versus Clare be decided on the power Clare has inherited or her own merits as an individual?
IMHO it's both. As far as we know Organization ranking is based mostly on yoki size and in lesser degree on swordsmanship. Existence of AF, as well as Alicia and Beth suggest yoki size and yoki quality depends on donor material as well as individual ability to merge human and yoma flesh. Otherwise it's hard to explain why Alicia/Beth and Luciella/Raphaela was of the same strength. And why candidates for strongest warriors were scouted by Org (twins, Theresa - implied).
Most probably with time merging of yoma/human flesh increases - it could partially explain how Uma and Cynthia increased so much (Ghost are living for much longer period of time than average warriors). Half awakening accelerate merging a lot.
As far as we know Clare was unable to use Theresa abilities before half awakening. She was using six sense (like Miata or Ophelia, and probably Priscilla), to found yoma. Six sense explains how she was able to feel Priscilla yoki.
Clare is using abilities and powers she inherited - like yoki sensing or quick sword, abilities she learned - like yoki manipulation or wind sword, as well as abilities she trained by herself - like limb awakening, precise quick sword or six sense.
So Clare strength come both from donor material as well as her own characteristic.
On the other hand. IMHO lots of us underestimate Clare and overestimate Priscilla after last few chapters. Priscilla just killed 3 AOs in a row, without special effort, some people compare it with Theresa - Rosemary fight. Lets ignore the fact that Theresa was just a warrior, not awakened being. AB even in human form should be stronger than nonawakened warrior.
More important is Priscilla wasn't fighting with AO who were on full strength. A contrary, of those 3 AOs one was completely depleted from youki, second was fighting with infection, and third was just after fight with another AO and hepling her sister to stay in control. Yes, Priscilla killed 3 AOs but those were way weaker than in normal circumstances.
In Pieta, Clare in Queen of blades mode killed Rigardo. Former male #2, strong enough to awake just to call Isley for a duel. She was stronger than Rigardo. Who else was stronger? Priscilla, Isley, and as we could assume - Riful, Luciella, Theresa and Rosemary. In other words Clare in Pieta was already at AO level, or very close.
She got stronger in those 7 years. What is more important she merged with Raciella. Not only she inherited Raphaela memories, but also her body went through another metamorphosis. IMHO much more important than half awakening. It looked like her body didn't just emerged from Raciella but was recreated from Raciella body. In other words Clare is now a fuse of human, Theresa, Irene, Luciella and Raphaela. Her body is now no different than Priscilla or any other awakened being human body. Awakened Clare should be stronger than Riful or Alicia.
clarakiss~
2010-01-02, 18:57
will clare be stronger than teresa? that's what i like to know instead of this teresa vs priscilla debate. u.u
A little late to the discussion, but this month's chapter was good. Yagi paced things pretty well for the Clare/Priscilla reunion to occur at chapter 100.
The moment Pris had Dauf watch Riful be devoured made me an instant fan.
or once the PvT discussion appears somewhat relevant...somewhat. I will be disappointed if Claire just awakens and wins. I hope Priscilla's death (if she dies) will have some substance or reason to it.
Thank you Arturro for being the only person so far to actually consider my points and offer something that didn't devolve into yet another Teresa/Priscilla comparison battle. I really can't refute your points, for the moment.
I know it's strange having a moderator actually participate in discussion around these parts but if I were honestly attempting to stop thread derailing I would be much more aggressive about it. I'm just trying to keep the discussion from being circular, more as a fan than as a mod. You are all being pretty civil and relatively on topic so why should I discourage that? It would be me failing my duties in promoting a healthy discussion forum and disrespectful as a fan of Claymore.
So as a fan - Yes, Teresa was powerful, yes Priscilla is powerful, but the questions are not about those two battling because that fight is OVER. Instead we have the inheritor of Teresa's strength and possibly more versus the being that won that match, Priscilla. Will this be round two of that fight or something completely different? That's the debate I'd like to see, not pages and pages of "Teresa could flick a finger and wipe out half the planet" and "no she can't, Priscilla could blink and do it faster".
Honestly, I sometimes feel like Clare will never escape Teresa's shadow.
Will this be round two of that fight or something completely different?
Honestly, I sometimes feel like Clare will never escape Teresa's shadow.
Agreed on the last statement.
I would argue the fight is on completely different terms than Teresa/Priscilla. AB Priscilla versus Claire (multiple flesh donors) with the Destroyer in the mix sort of changes the odds of the fight. What I am expecting of the next chapter is something according to the Claire/Lion King fight. Priscilla will concentrate on the destroyer while Claire continues to find openings on Priscilla and attack.
Claire alone I don't think could touch Priscilla at the moment. Claire and the Destroyer on the other-hand, yes.
Shiek927
2010-01-02, 19:46
Wow; you guys are already degrading eachother already? Dang, that was fast this month.
Honestly, I sometimes feel like Clare will never escape Teresa's shadow.
Yes
Yes Yes Yes
This is exactly what annoys me; that Teresa is (possibly) so important, that Claire herself...I wonder why she even exists, if she is simply to physically embody Teresa. People blow up her importance and power in a way, that it's like she never died at all. Part of it, I'm sure, is just fan-fascination, but I hope that's all it is.
I hope whenever, or whatever, Claire does down the road, it can be attributed to her, and not Teresa.
will clare be stronger than teresa? that's what i like to know instead of this teresa vs priscilla debate. u.u
Mmm.......hard to say....
Down the road...I'm leaning more towards No...even with the skills and things Claire has learned and overcome, her power is still relative to mere pieces of Teresa and Irene and the trials she has gone through.
It's a hard one, but I'm going with No.
irvinethearcher
2010-01-02, 19:50
Honestly, I sometimes feel like Clare will never escape Teresa's shadow.
I don't think that this will be the final showdown now or that clare will change from the ugly duckling into the white swan now in the next chapters. IMO clare is destined to fuse with theresa whose consciousness is still sleeping inside of her own flesh to become a being which would create a new (better?) world. Yagi gave hints to it with the fusion of rafaella and the whole twin goddess theme and the names clare and theresa like they are in the holy scriptures. The memory exchange of the abyssal feeders, rafaella's reconstruction by clare's really small memory of meeting her once in the woods, Zaki's tears for Raki, the dream clare had about theresa and her ability to read the flow like theresa after that dream are all hints for that. I think some things are certain that they'll happen. The question is how and when will they happen? IMO clare's destiny will be always connected with theresa. The legend is not called the goddess of love but the twin goddess. So in the end i think both will stay on equal ground even power wise.
I think someone posted this in later month's tread, but pleaaaaaaaaaase, let me remember it:
Let the dead stay dead.
Teresa is dead. And I don't think bringing her back from death would do any good to this manga (neither by resurrection nor 'fusion'). Actually, I don't see Clare being 'overshadowed' by Teresa in any means, she's a well defined and developed character on her own, and a completely different person from Teresa. Probably in next chapter we're gonna see her mercilessly ass-kicked, but at least let her be by her own strength and skills (yeah, she sure has been given important gifts from Irene, Rafaela, Teresa and her companions, but you know, people don't learn to talk and walk without help).
And of course I don't believe Clare & co are gonna survive the current situation by sword clashes, they have absolutely ALL the odds against them. In fact they're now placed between the most powerful beings in the island, and anyone knows what happen when crossfire begins. If Clare wants to keep her head right where it was at the beginning of the arc, she'd better repress her desires of revenge.
Edit: oh Crom, looks like Hegy and me actually agree about something xD (not about Clare surpassing Teresa, that's blasphemy :bash: )
Shiek927
2010-01-02, 20:54
I think someone posted this in later month's tread, but pleaaaaaaaaaase, let me remember it:
Let the dead stay dead.
Ha, that was me :p :D :heh:
Still think Yagi is gonna pull a fast one and do a scene-change next chapter.
Rafaela.....
Rafaela is dead, yet "alive" and speaking to Clare, lol.
Irene......
Irene was dead, yet she "came back to life" and saved Clare from Ophelia, lol.
Riful......
Riful is (FINALLY!) now dead, let's see if she stays dead, lol.
Rafaela wasn't dead, we never saw her die in the Cognates of Paradise Arc. As for Irene, the manga was actually quite ambiguous showing her defeat (alongside with Sophia and Noel) at the hands of Priscilla (curiously the anime was more 'convincing' about Sophia & Noel's fate). Riful, if not dead, has been left so much damaged that she'll probably won't pose a significant thread anymore (and that assuming she's still alive, which I doubt).
In any case, if we're to see Teresa again, it'd better be in a flashback or in another 'dream sequence', like while in Rafaela's mind or during Clare's first duel against Miria.
I was referring to the Cognates of Paradise Arc and Audrey's words in chapter 70.
murikibishii
2010-01-02, 21:59
Hi guys, my first post here.
I've been wondering if the images of Clare rising out of the Destroyer and Priscilla's "revival" on vol 98 cover are meant to indicate some sort of an important parallel between the two. Since it's Yagi we're dealing with, they seem much too similar to be just a coincidence. Since the pictures are NSFW, I guess I can only post the links here.
http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/2971/88260548.jpg
http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/9007/53515861.jpg
If this image is more than fan service, it seems like Priscilla is also starting to break free of the awakened nature, which in her case is hardened, but we see cracks and pieces starting to fly.
Shiek927
2010-01-02, 23:49
(and don't say he'll bleed to death, as i'm sure Priscilla would at least know to bandage him up, lol)
How would she know to do something like that?
Considering her strength, she's bound to completely mutilate his body pulling them out. No amount of natural human healing and bandaging can fix gigantic holes in your chest
A total random speculation...
I was reading gernots translation of chapter 99 and he worded the smell part differently. In short he says "scent stuck to that man" and then "he'll lead me to the source of the smell (and that why she followed him all this time)". Well that's a paraphrase of it, but you get the idea. If true, it does make it sound like Clare might be the source of what Priscilla is smelling on Raki... (no not Teresa inside of her but Clare herself).
As much as I dislike the idea... here is what it sounded like to me of being "the source". Clare partially awakened while holding Raki and Ophelia did say Clare smelled like an awakened being. So the conclusion I drew from this translation was Clare's awakening released energy and Raki was in direct contact with it (unlike Cid and Galk were further away). So maybe the energy slightly altered him. (I know it sounds as stupid as Peter Parker being bitten by a radioactive spider and becoming spiderman... but who the beep knows.) So Priscilla was smelling some of the X factor that lead to a partial awakening... there by regaining some of her past memories, losing her hunger, and getting a sense of her old self. So Raki wasn't carrying the scent but the energy release made him produce it himself, to a very minor degree (since he was human and not a hybrid). Now scientifically an energy release like that would likely just give Raki cancer and not an imprint of a partial awakened beings scent... but this is fiction after all but at least it's not a real super power and just a slight resistance to being taken over by the Destroyer and smelling slightly different.
Now, I can only speculate this, but the reason why Priscilla might have noticed the smell and it's effects, when others did not, is because as a human she totally hated all yoma. So her desire to not be a yoma was likely very strong and if even a tiny fraction of that came back it's just possible she might notice it and not just eat Raki but want more of the scent. Isley was changed too but he still ate some meals... so I'm guessing he too might have been effected by this scent but not to the same degree. I'm speculating that's it's because he was a first generation warrior and wasn't from a time period when the Yoma weren't considered as old as time immemorial but a new threat. So he might not have been personally effected by them like Priscilla was. Or maybe it's cause he was a male or maybe he just didn't mind being a AB... well who really knows and moving on...
So that got me thinking... (btw this is pure speculation based on little fact, but it's fun food for thought) now that Priscilla might be a just few feet from the source of that change in Raki (and two others just like her) what are the odds she'll really want to fight them rather than smelling them and remembering her past self via the smell. (It be very funny to see Priscilla pinning Clare and smelling her just like Ophelia did). This chapter just told us that what Priscilla wants most is remember her past self. Now I'm not saying that won't stop Priscilla beating out of them the intel of how the partially awakened or not defend herself or put them in there place but why would she kill the strongest source of that smell. She still is a monster but if gernot's translation is accurate and Clare is "the source" of the smell I doubt she'll kill her and hopefully Helen and Deneve smell the same way or else whats to stop Priscilla from using them to forcing Clare into giving Priscilla what she wants... that being anything from Clare attempting to reverse her awakening to just staying near that smell or whatever else that girl can think of.
Next off we have the issue of Clare being made from Teresa and having Irene's arm. So Priscilla does have two yoki sigs she can pic up on that she can possibly recall. Not to mention the fact that Clare knows her name and knows Raki. Now the yoki sigs are from before Priscilla's awakening and just after... so the odds of her recalling them a slightly lower than Riful just 7 years ago... but who knows. So based on the estimated power levels of all participants (The Destoyer's HellCats, Clare, Helen, Deneve, and Priscilla) it's very clear Priscilla will be the one to pick how this plays out but Clare's actions could really effect what she chooses to do with everyone. So if Clare is to live she's either got to be forced to concentrate on the Cats, not act too "impulsively" (likely due to her sensing Priscilla hidden power and knowing she stands no chance), have her snap out of her rage due to an event or bit of dialog (like Raki's name), or Priscilla's going to need a reason not to kill her because Clare will attack her. That later being where this speculation comes into play.
Now if Clare's partial awakenings energy release is the source of the change (smell) in Raki... will the organization figure it out because they now have Raki? Sorry Rubel your plan could fail due to a smell. If Rubel does fail to keep the organization from finding out about partial awakenings he'll likely be forced to act before the mainland can find out and use this knowledge against the Dragonskin. (Hasn't Revan5 been saying repeatedly the Dragons are going to invade after The Destroyer arc.)
Now all that was pure speculation and I came up with it when I was away from my PC, so I'm sharing it now so you can point out my flaws and/or take the parts you like and make it better. Hope you didn't find it too crazy... since it is based off of just the wording of one translation.
[thousandmaster]
2010-01-03, 01:36
Raki was at point blank range when Claire almost awakened at the church. He must have absorb alot of Claire's yoki/smell and Priscilla noticed the smell when she met him. Now that the smell was near, Priscilla left Raki to find the source of the original smell? It's a crazy theory I know. ;)
;2850689']Raki was at point blank range when Claire almost awakened at the church. He must have absorb alot of Claire's yoki/smell and Priscilla noticed the smell when she met him. Now that the smell was near, Priscilla left Raki to find the source of the original smell? It's a crazy theory I know. ;)
:heh: I'm not even sure I'd call it a theory yet... speculation is as far as I'm willing to take it at this point. However the idea has been stuck in my head for half a day and I felt like sharing. :p;)
[thousandmaster]
2010-01-03, 01:51
You're right. It's just a crazy speculation at this point. :)
Shiek927
2010-01-03, 02:05
shiek... some common sense... V.V
she WAS a human and a Claymore. she has those (and nearly ALL of her) memories back now. she is still smart and knowledgible. just because you become an AB/AO or a Claymore for that matter doesn't mean you become stupid or "new" to the world. what human being doesn't know about loss of blood and bandaging?
Claymore Teresa was still well aware human Clare needed to eat like 3 times a day. AO Isley still remembers his swordsmanship when he was a human/Claymore.
Priscilla isn't going to "forget" or become so stupid that she no longer knows about loss of blood and bandaging. lol.
priscilla can control her strength. she didn't crush renee's wrist/arm instantly. when she pulled raki out of the way of the huge projectile, she didn't send him flying backwards and splating against some wall killing him.
heck, she has tentacles/claws, she can cut around the two rods (if they attached themselves to his body.
quite frankly if this was the real world, with the use of her sharp tentacles, she could literally do orthoscopic surgery (like i had done to myself to repair my fully torn ACL in my knee) and remove the two rods from his body.
Roflmao, that's some pretty farfetched speculation when you're asking me to use common sense :heh:
You're assuming she has the specific memories to heal, and you're assuming she knows how to bandage someone anyway. Just because Teresa knows how often normal humans need to eat proves nothing - she was originally human, of course she would know. To have training in healing humans would imply their would be situations for warriors to take care of wounded humans, which contradicts their role - Their purpose is kill Yoma, not to aid wounded humans. If a person is injured, odds are the warrior is not going to care; and if they are worried about the human dying on them and it's their fault(Teresa and Claire), they will probably just take them to the nearest town to treatment. If they die in the meanwhile, who cares, they went out of their way to help them and ended up just wasting their time.
Neither the Organization or warriors in general care enough about human beings to either learn or teach how to treat them, when they are capable of regeneration beyond them. The only way a warrior would know how to treat a human being is if they learned on their own; which means Priscilla either learned these things as a human being, or as an Awakened Being, presumably while with Isley, and either way is too far-fetched to believe(I doubt her parents are teaching her treatment at the extremely young age she was at, and Isley prefers eating humans then healing them), but at the very least, far from "common sense".
Your argument is that they can remember certain things when they were human beings, when those specific things are beyond the obvious. They can't remember things however, that they never learned.
In the end, the whole thing is pretty much moot; if Priscilla could help Raki in that way, she would, she wouldn't have left.
--
As a matter of fact Ryus, I thought the same thing when I talked about Gernot's translations yesturday; the french translation made me think the source was a location, like the Southlands, but Gernot's makes it sounds like a person which sounds more like Claire.
Who knows, we'll find out sooner or later :heh:
Take your disagreements to private discussion if you can't resolve them without acting like children. If I have to resolve them, the results won't be pretty.
Act civil and leave the insults back in the first grade where they belong.
rougetaal
2010-01-03, 08:52
For Clare strength there are few indicators but here is my 'Analysis' :cool:
Well first there is her fight with Miria. They end up in a bit of a tie.
While we do(or did) not know Miria's strength at that point of time, she can not be weaker than before. Therefore Clare strength is in the single digits area(and that's fact).
Next is the encounter with Riful during the awakened hunt with the sorry excuse for single digits warriors(#3 #5 :uhoh: 'subjectivity').
Here it's the escape itself that is the indicator. She has the skill to evade and escape from an Abyssal One. By the way she said it and the way Riful reacts to the escape, no common warrior even undetectable like she was would have suceeded(that also count for the others 'fab 4' though :) ).
Next is our friend the #2 awakened being 'Crimson Agatha'(I think that's her name) in Rabona. Well, she clearly was not Abyssal One material and there was seven of them, still they dealt with her swiftly, neatly and truly without any difficulty :heh:.
More telling here are the observations of Miata. How she sniffes out the strong :twitch:(i'm still mindboggled), still she says 'two of them' are really strong (Miria & Clare) although to be fair she also says that they are all strong but these two stand out even so. Now we may argue about the flawed view of the Organization but i believe they recognize a #1 when they see one(when can argue all we want about who's strongest between Theresa and Priscilla, but Priscilla was still #1 material), and they, even after Beth and Alicia say that Miata has the potential of #1.
Imagine what that means, a claymore with the strength to become number 1 ,qualify Clare(and Miria) as really strong :).
Then there is the fight with the Awakened in the (mysterious)town(i don't remember the name) when Yuma realizes that she's stronger than the current number 12(i think it was), but also realize that she didn't feel any stronger than before against Clare and the others(and she was number 40 then). 'To me' that clearly says here and there that Clare and Miria if not number 1 have the power of the Top three of the Organization.
So basically what it all means(to me at least :) ) is that if Clare awakened against Priscilla, she would be, at the very least at an Abyssal One level.
But that's without whatever the memories that Rafaela and being inside Raciella did to her.
Now what that means against Priscilla.... Well, I guess we've pretty much seen how it goes :heh: (and besides she won't awaken).
Shiek927
2010-01-03, 13:13
Take your disagreements to private discussion if you can't resolve them without acting like children. If I have to resolve them, the results won't be pretty.
Act civil and leave the insults back in the first grade where they belong.
......Did I just miss something? :confused:
---
:rolleyes: Hedge.... Teresa told them to bandage Rig, she wasn't gonna do it for them, assuming she even knew how.
And yes I'm aware, both of them were originally human, I specifically brought that up myself.
Whatever
irvinethearcher
2010-01-03, 13:14
IMO clare's power up at being inside of raciella is that she is now imune against those rods the hellcats or the destroyer are shooting. for me this would make the most sense.
......Did I just miss something? :confused:
Yes. It's being handled privately. The warning reached the people who knew what it meant.
SagaraSouske
2010-01-03, 18:22
IMHO it's both. As far as we know Organization ranking is based mostly on yoki size and in lesser degree on swordsmanship. Existence of AF, as well as Alicia and Beth suggest yoki size and yoki quality depends on donor material as well as individual ability to merge human and yoma flesh. Otherwise it's hard to explain why Alicia/Beth and Luciella/Raphaela was of the same strength. And why candidates for strongest warriors were scouted by Org (twins, Theresa - implied).
Most probably with time merging of yoma/human flesh increases - it could partially explain how Uma and Cynthia increased so much (Ghost are living for much longer period of time than average warriors). Half awakening accelerate merging a lot.
As far as we know Clare was unable to use Theresa abilities before half awakening. She was using six sense (like Miata or Ophelia, and probably Priscilla), to found yoma. Six sense explains how she was able to feel Priscilla yoki.
Clare is using abilities and powers she inherited - like yoki sensing or quick sword, abilities she learned - like yoki manipulation or wind sword, as well as abilities she trained by herself - like limb awakening, precise quick sword or six sense.
So Clare strength come both from donor material as well as her own characteristic.
On the other hand. IMHO lots of us underestimate Clare and overestimate Priscilla after last few chapters. Priscilla just killed 3 AOs in a row, without special effort, some people compare it with Theresa - Rosemary fight. Lets ignore the fact that Theresa was just a warrior, not awakened being. AB even in human form should be stronger than nonawakened warrior.
More important is Priscilla wasn't fighting with AO who were on full strength. A contrary, of those 3 AOs one was completely depleted from youki, second was fighting with infection, and third was just after fight with another AO and hepling her sister to stay in control. Yes, Priscilla killed 3 AOs but those were way weaker than in normal circumstances.
In Pieta, Clare in Queen of blades mode killed Rigardo. Former male #2, strong enough to awake just to call Isley for a duel. She was stronger than Rigardo. Who else was stronger? Priscilla, Isley, and as we could assume - Riful, Luciella, Theresa and Rosemary. In other words Clare in Pieta was already at AO level, or very close.
She got stronger in those 7 years. What is more important she merged with Raciella. Not only she inherited Raphaela memories, but also her body went through another metamorphosis. IMHO much more important than half awakening. It looked like her body didn't just emerged from Raciella but was recreated from Raciella body. In other words Clare is now a fuse of human, Theresa, Irene, Luciella and Raphaela. Her body is now no different than Priscilla or any other awakened being human body. Awakened Clare should be stronger than Riful or Alicia.
I am not so sure about Rosemary being stronger then Rigardo from. That can only be speculation as we have no way of directly compare them. Teresa may be, depending on how powerful Rosemary is. Clare may be close to AO lvl when she partial awakened or there may be a gap still between that form and AO level, we don't know. Just because Clare QOB form is faster then Rigardo and killed him with ease doesn't equate to her being at, below or above AO level. The only thing we know as a fact is Isley is also faster then Rigardo and Isley's full awaken form's strength is not speed. Right now, if Clare awakens,
I don't believe Clare merged with Raciella. It is more like Raciella split her out, along with her sword. I think she is still the same body as before and what she gained is only Raphaella's memory. I would agree she is prob above AO level if she fully awakens.. However, Priscilla is so far above AO level that I still think she has a ways to go before being able to fight Priscilla toe to toe. Priscilla thinks of Alicia and Beth as merely annoying children. While some of that comes from the arrogance of her current persona, it is clear neither of them pose any threat to her and she was pretty much toying with them. Remaining in human form is one proof of that and despite Alicia and Beth not being at full power, Priscilla still easily destroyed both at the same time while in human form.
SagaraSouske
2010-01-03, 18:57
My whole point with my previous post was to question what potential meant, if it was solely based on the individual or merely their inherited flesh. Will Priscilla versus Clare be decided on the power Clare has inherited or her own merits as an individual?
That's all I was getting at.
When Teresa said potential, I believe she meant everything from youki level, to ability to improve one's swordsmanship, ability to utilize youki, sense youki, etc, the entire package - as a claymore. Basically, it's the combined potential of the individual and the imbued yoma flesh in them. She is basically saying, Priscilla has the potential to grow into a claymore that rivals her or possibly exceed her.
However, I believe each claymore's own potential has much influence on the hybridization process. If the Org can create claymores like Teresa and Priscilla, what stops them from making more claymores as powerful as Teresa and Priscilla, if they have the same source yoma flesh they used? I believe it is because only the combination of the source yoma flesh with Teresa/Priscilla that made them the special case they are. So even if they used the same flesh to hybridize other claymores, they may not turn out nearly as powerful as Teresa and Priscilla and simply just be a strong claymore, prob #1 caliber but not monsters like those two.
Clare hybridized with Teresa's flesh would be the same. She needs to have the potential herself to bring out Teresa's power in the flesh she inherited. That path she walked already demonstrated much of her own merit - learning youki prediction the hard way, adapting Quicksword to her own version combined with youki prediction, learning techniques from Flora, Galatea, seven year training to learn to fight without youki and improve one's youki in both control and quality. All these training and experiences helps fulfill her potential. After all, having all the potential in the world isn't going to help if you die in your first mission and never have the opportunity to learn and improve. It may be hard to believe Teresa's words regarding Priscilla's potential when she can own her so hard. And yet, when you look at how much Clare has grown from the beginning till now, who's to say Priscilla could not have done the same had she remained a claymore? Thus, the claymore Priscilla we saw is like Clare first starting out, only difference is she started out much stronger then Clare. Imagine Priscilla grow the same way Clare does, becoming perhaps ten times stronger then her former self through her journey; then imagine that Priscilla awakening - that's what you have in the recent chapters. What Teresa's flesh give to Clare is the same as what the yoma flesh has given to Teresa and Priscilla. I believe it has to be Clare's own knowledge, abilities and experience that allow her to confront Priscilla. She already has the potential to bring out power inherited from Teresa's flesh. That alone is not enough. She needs to full fill her own potential first before she will have a chance at Priscilla even in full awakened form. Yagi cheated with Priscilla by giving her a trait that allow her to bypass all the journey and allowed her to get straight to the goal through the awakening process, I doubt he will do the same with Clare.
Shiek927
2010-01-03, 22:46
I more or less agree with you Hedge; once Isley had Priscilla under his thumb, he really had no use for Rigardo or his army. He didn't have any sort of friendship with any of them, that much as certain despite the long history, they were all a means to an end. If any of them survived, good for him, he could make use of them in some other way. If not, who cares.
It probably would have been preferable if they all died as they did, but if they didn't, it wouldn't have mattered to Isley. Although it could be useful, a power like Priscilla really makes any sort of army kind of useless in the long-run. It depends on viewpoint and how efficiently you can make use of what you have.
Isley, understandably, didn't care for them any longer. Maybe he felt something for them, specifically Rigardo, but his actions and words to Luciella says otherwise. In the long run, he really didn't care for them much more then how he could make use of them.
;2850689']Raki was at point blank range when Claire almost awakened at the church. He must have absorb alot of Claire's yoki/smell and Priscilla noticed the smell when she met him. Now that the smell was near, Priscilla left Raki to find the source of the original smell? It's a crazy theory I know. ;)
Well, if true, it will simply confirm what we all suspected of Raki. He's a useless hippy. I mean, seven years, and not a single bath or shower? Hmph!
I kid, sort of. I actually sort of like young adult Raki (even if pubescent Raki was utterly useless and deserved some spankings - of the non sexual kind). I'm 99% certain he's still going to be central to however Claire/Pris end up resolving their relationship (and quite possibly the climax of the manga; ie: central to the ending).
I have no idea if Yagi had any say in how the anime ended when it diverged from the manga, and I certainly didn't much like it mostly due to the last few episodes basically being a tape stuck with "RRRRRRGH GONNA KILL YOU" repeating for 52 minutes, but the beginning of a philosophical debate opened up with the interactions they had with Isley, Raki, Prisc, and then Raki and Claire, sure seem to provide very plausible insight as to the underlying philosophical framework for however the manga will end as well, if not the actual same plot.
I guess that's my long-winded way of saying I believe Raki means more to Prisc than just a means to an end so to speak. But, none of us are the author, so we'll just all have to see. :)
irvinethearcher
2010-01-04, 08:24
I more or less agree with you Hedge; once Isley had Priscilla under his thumb, he really had no use for Rigardo or his army. He didn't have any sort of friendship with any of them, that much as certain despite the long history, they were all a means to an end. If any of them survived, good for him, he could make use of them in some other way. If not, who cares.
It probably would have been preferable if they all died as they did, but if they didn't, it wouldn't have mattered to Isley. Although it could be useful, a power like Priscilla really makes any sort of army kind of useless in the long-run. It depends on viewpoint and how efficiently you can make use of what you have.
Isley, understandably, didn't care for them any longer. Maybe he felt something for them, specifically Rigardo, but his actions and words to Luciella says otherwise. In the long run, he really didn't care for them much more then how he could make use of them.
See that is what i meant with becoming a perverted version of his former self after awakening. I doubt isley was that kind of guy as a claymore. Perhaps he was a cold blooded strategician but not a calculating monster.
See that is what i meant with becoming a perverted version of his former self after awakening. I doubt isley was that kind of guy as a claymore. Perhaps he was a cold blooded strategician but not a calculating monster.
Agree with you there. It is true that one must have the same characteristics as before, unless one goes on about a dramatic change due to an event. An awakening can be characterized as such an event. But till, I would think that a full awakening would have an ever lasting -ve effect on anyone. Even the good ladies.:)
Shiek927
2010-01-04, 12:45
See that is what i meant with becoming a perverted version of his former self after awakening. I doubt isley was that kind of guy as a claymore. Perhaps he was a cold blooded strategician but not a calculating monster.
How do we know that Irvine? We know absolutely nothing about Isley whatsoever when he was a Claymore, the same goes for all the Males.
If anything, the very fact he didn't care for them despite their long history is evidence he is simply a callous bastard, and awakening had nothing to do with it.
Boy this chapter was absolutely awesome! Especially the cliffhanger at the end.
Still, I had a WTF moment when I wondered if Priscilla ATE Riful. Anyway, I hope she's not dead yet, she deserves an on-screen death. Maybe Duff will sacrifice himself by feeding her his own guts so she can survive or something. Besides, this would be too much of a 'big clean up' feeling if Riful died : in a matter of a mere 10 chapters, Yagi has killed Isley, Alicia, Beth, and I dont think Raciella is going to survive much longer once the Priscillator sets her sights on her. This would leave only the Org as an antagonist, and honestly it would feel like the story is moving too fast.
The look inside Priscilla's mind was interesting though. If she was back to a mindless monster, she would have eaten Raki too, sentimentality be damned. While she admits eating the villagers, it is possible they were already dead. The way I see it, Priscilla is now aware of what she has become, ans seeks redemption by removing all the threats to mankind (or simply Raki), after which she will allow someone to kill her.
It is a nice touch that the fated meeting between Clare and Priscilla will (probably) happen in chapter 100. Then again, it will probably be Clare acting rash and charging in only to be spared because she's the one Raki seeks. Then Priscilla will slaughter the kitties in 2.7 seconds, which will cause all three Claymores to gape in horror at her power (and Clare to finally realize how stupid she's been).
Shiek927
2010-01-04, 13:27
While she admits eating the villagers, it is possible they were already dead.
You know, I didn't think of that D, good observation :)
I'm just wondering if she failed to eat any of the young village girls and as a result they where taken over... Just this once I'm hoping Priscilla wasn't "merciful" (if that's the right word). Since being taken over has got to be a far worse fate... better to have bleed out after Priscilla ate your guts...
Such a depressing thought... :( That Priscilla was the merciful way to go...
Shiek927
2010-01-04, 15:14
I'm just wondering if she failed to eat any of the young village girls and as a result they where taken over... Just this once I'm hoping Priscilla wasn't "merciful" (if that's the right word). Since being taken over has got to be a far worse fate... better to have bleed out after Priscilla ate your guts...
Such a depressing thought... :( That Priscilla was the merciful way to go...
Makes me think of warriors killing their friends right before they awaken, because it's more "merciful" :(.
Makes me think of warriors killing their friends right before they awaken, because it's more "merciful" :(.
As sad as it is Chapter 4 is still one of my very favorite chapters... http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/NF%20smilies/cryinganime.gif
irvinethearcher
2010-01-04, 16:12
How do we know that Irvine? We know absolutely nothing about Isley whatsoever when he was a Claymore, the same goes for all the Males.
If anything, the very fact he didn't care for them despite their long history is evidence he is simply a callous bastard, and awakening had nothing to do with it.
We know enough of awakening. We know that most of the claymores rather die than becoming gut eating "evil" creatures. The black cards are not for show. We know how yoma behave and that they not only feed but also torture a lot. We know what miria reported about the male awakened warriors who suddenly became a danger for their own former comrades. We know enough to judge. Sorry, but with a very high probability awakening had a lot to do with it. Awakened beings have trades of yoma and yoma are twisted, perverted and enjoy things normal humans(except the bandits ;) ) wouldn't do. Theresa called the bandit "less than a yoma" and i think she knew a lot about yoma and how they behave. I highly doubt that isley was that way as a human or why did he change after he met raki? Because raki reminded him about his former perhaps "noble" self? During he used the sword probably some memories came back. We know hilda and ophelia but those are not the norm those are the exceptions that was made clear in that manga all the time. Luciella for example is another good example that awakening changes the personality. Rafaell killed her when she tried to convince her to awaken for gaining land and power. She knew than that the creature in her arms wasn't her beloved sister anymore, otherwise she had no reason to kill her.
IMO yoma or AB most of the time behave like anti social psychopathic humans. They have no mercy or care for others the way humans do. At least they have to learn or regain this ability and that could take a lot of time.
We know enough of awakening. We know that most of the claymores rather die than becoming gut eating "evil" creatures. The black cards are not for show. We know how yoma behave and that they not only feed but also torture a lot. We know what miria reported about the male awakened warriors who suddenly became a danger for their own former comrades. We know enough to judge. Sorry, but with a very high probability awakening had a lot to do with it. Awakened beings have trades of yoma and yoma are twisted, perverted and enjoy things normal humans(except the bandits ;) ) wouldn't do. Theresa called the bandit "less than a yoma" and i think she knew a lot about yoma and how they behave. I highly doubt that isley was that way as a human or why did he change after he met raki? Because raki reminded him about his former perhaps "noble" self? During he used the sword probably some memories came back. We know hilda and ophelia but those are not the norm those are the exceptions that was made clear in that manga all the time. Luciella for example is another good example that awakening changes the personality. Rafaell killed her when she tried to convince her to awaken for gaining land and power. She knew than that the creature in her arms wasn't her beloved sister anymore, otherwise she had no reason to kill her.
IMO yoma or AB most of the time behave like anti social psychopathic humans. They have no mercy or care for others the way humans do. At least they have to learn or regain this ability and that could take a lot of time.
I'm not so sure... we have Rosemary who was able to keep an grudge after awakening, Luciela still cried happy tears upon seeing her sister again, Agatha's nick name before awakening was bloody, Ophelia still wanted to kill Clare, Priscilla still knew Irene, and Hilda still cared for Miria by not really fighting back. Etc...
So on at least some extent part of the individual molds the awakened beings behavior. Yet, we all know awakened being are willing to eat anyone for food even if they truly hated Yoma before hand. Also Priscilla had no qualms with killing her teammates just moments after awakening. What I see as really changing is the desire for guts and they can't seem to kill themselves (yet they can let others kill them... Clare couldn't kill herself... twice. Plus we didn't see Jean attempting to either... and they are the two most strong willed individuals in all of Claymore... Also Ophelia didn't even say she'd kill herself if Clare didn't, she said she regenerate... implying she'd go on and eat people.). I really don't know if torturing is something that happens as a result of awakening or their base personality... I mean Priscilla didn't seem like a torturer before her awakening yet she does it now, however everything I know of Agatha seems to suggest she hadn't changed...
Hopefully I made sense there... but I just don't see a real universal law that is in Claymore about how awakenings effects ones behavior other then the desire for flesh and they don't seem able to kill themselves directly, though they can let themselves die via inaction. I suppose each awakening is unique, it depends on how much one resists and there previous personalities. Though that doesn't really clear the air on this subject... now does it :eyespin:.
Shiek927
2010-01-04, 17:12
Irvine, I'm just gonna direct you to my last post on this subject(that has 2 more links), because I doubt their is much more I can say that isn't just repetition. Your post itself is just basically more of the same.
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2841235&postcount=114
We just have different outlooks on this subject, I guess *shrug
irvinethearcher
2010-01-04, 18:00
About torturing:
the paburo ab did it with miria but i was referring directly to yoma because the yoma tortured clare as a child. Dauf and riful :heh:
@Shiek
Everyone can have a opinion but sometimes they are fare fetched and on no solid ground. To say that isley was the same way as a claymore is IMO quite bold and that awakening doesn't influence the personality or that we don't know it is IMO absolutely wrong and really has NO solid base. Yes we don't know but do you think tomorrow is end of the world? Why not? We don't know. Miria said it herself when she revealed her secret and i even quoted her but you seem to stubbornly ignore the facts. Okay so be it. It annoys me that we discuss here such a basic thing in which everyone should think the same. Black cards are not only propaganda from the org. The claymores feel their dark desires when they come near awakening. Deneve made that clear when they talked alone to undine. Even those who never made such experiences know it from those who made them.
In the first chapters clare said something that after awakening the yoma personality becomes the dominant one. Last but not least rafaella explained to clare that her personality would be destroyed when this being awakens anyway, another indication.
Shiek927
2010-01-04, 18:11
Roflmao Irvine, what's so bold about it?
I've already gone into why I look into this subject the way I do, and already made it clearly it's probably unique.
You've brought up the warriors in your arguement...but none of them are Awakened Beings now are they? When we talk about AB's, I look at them for my arguements. I don't look at warriors and what they think may or may not happen. Claire, Deneve...what exactly do they know, except what they have been told? Half-awakening for example, is something they discovered by themselves.
Rafaela is no indication at all; she was losing herself because she was fusing with her sister, so she decided to give everything she could to Claire. It doesn't prove anything.
It annoys me that we discuss here such a basic thing in which everyone should think the same.
Roflmao, now where's the fun in that? ;)
The whole point of this forum is too discuss our point-of-views on matters. If we all had the same thought process about everything...why are we even here? To agree with eachother?
Awakened
2010-01-04, 19:51
Riful is 99.99999999 % dead. Remember Lucila was out of yoki when she got killed by a bear hug.
theevilanimal
2010-01-04, 23:32
I remember priscilla saying something about raciella's awakening. Something about not desiring flesh; could it be a clue to something upcoming between the two monsters?
Shiek927
2010-01-05, 00:46
I remember priscilla saying something about raciella's awakening. Something about not desiring flesh; could it be a clue to something upcoming between the two monsters?
I don't think so, those two are pretty different from eachother:
On one hand, we got one who kills for energy, but doesn't want to. On the other, we have one who lives off of energy indefinitely, and kills for no particular reason(hopefully I said that right :heh:)
They are similar, and yet, total opposites :eyespin:.
Quicksword
2010-01-05, 02:07
I just have a feeling the others will be apart, maybe next chapter. Could she take on the whole team or is everybody going to sit on the side lines like in Pieta and watch Clare do all the work?
Come to think of it, all their abilities combine makes for one hell of a threat.
(Does not feel like listing each characters abilities)
Where's Rene? I know people said she died in the ensuing events between Riful and Raciella, but did she really die and was her only purpose to push the events with Riful, Raciella and Clare along. Just to many off scene deaths in these past chapters, it's weird but it does have me wondering who may still be alive.
How many more people/AB/AO and perhaps Claymores will prisface pawn?
Still to many questions left unanswered.
The longest month ever....
Where's Rene? I know people said she died in the ensuing events between Riful and Raciella, but did she really die and was her only purpose to push the events with Riful, Raciella and Clare along. Just to many off scene deaths in these past chapters, it's weird but it does have me wondering who may still be alive.
I'm having the same problem. this sure is an annoying change from the first part where only Irene's death was implied :frustrated:
I am GLAD you are SO CONFIdent HegemonKhan!!!
PERSONALLY I HaVe TRoUbLE bEInG aS cOnFIdENt aBouT sOmE oF THEsE FaCTs As YOu.
http://ociozero.com/sites/all/modules/fckeditor/fckeditor/editor/images/smiley/emotipack/risa_cachonda.png http://ociozero.com/sites/all/modules/fckeditor/fckeditor/editor/images/smiley/emotipack/risa_cachonda.png http://ociozero.com/sites/all/modules/fckeditor/fckeditor/editor/images/smiley/emotipack/risa_cachonda.png http://ociozero.com/sites/all/modules/fckeditor/fckeditor/editor/images/smiley/emotipack/risa_cachonda.png http://ociozero.com/sites/all/modules/fckeditor/fckeditor/editor/images/smiley/emotipack/risa_cachonda.png
Sorry for the OT, but I wouldn't have expressed what I think better than Cyclone :D
Seriously, I feel some people around here base too much of their arguments in speculations they defend so enthusiastically, to the point they end up believing those speculations and/or personal theories as real facts. Actually, speculating is a very sane activitie until you start to believe yourself your own crazy theories as if it were real.
evil_kenshin
2010-01-05, 06:00
Sorry for the OT, but I wouldn't have expressed what I think better than Cyclone :D
Seriously, I feel some people around here base too much of their arguments in speculations they defend so enthusiastically, to the point they end up believing those speculations and/or personal theories as real facts. Actually, speculating is a very sane activitie until you start to believe yourself your own crazy theories as if it were real.
I agree, a certain member here often goes overboard with his rants and raves about claymore and stomps his feet if someone dares disagree with his speculations (his been proven wrong before) lol (for sake of keeping the peace I won't mention his name).
What we all have to try and do is understand speculation is speculation e.g. Hedge saying 100% Renee is alive is incorrect, we do not know that as its not shown in the manga thus its speculation and should be treated as such.
irvinethearcher
2010-01-05, 09:27
If we can have other opinions about such basic things we can appeal against even the most basic things and this makes every discussion baseless and opens the door for even the wildest speculations. Do you really want something like that? Opinions are like assholes everyone has one. That can not be. Even a opinion if someone writes it down here can not be baseless and ignoring logic and statements which are made in the manga.
You've brought up the warriors in your arguement...but none of them are Awakened Beings now are they? When we talk about AB's, I look at them for my arguements. I don't look at warriors and what they think may or may not happen. Claire, Deneve...what exactly do they know, except what they have been told? Half-awakening for example, is something they discovered by themselves.
So here it comes specially for you OM 55 11, because i know you wouldn't read it anyway even if i mentioned it in my last post:
Deneve: There is no doubt the feeling of approaching the limit is terrifying.
The desire for power, the craving for blood ... combined with lust boiling over through out your entire body ...
an instant in which you clearly feel the black knot of ugly emotions... hidden deep inside of you.
Like i said, there is nothing to discuss here i'm am simply right and you are simply wrong.
AB's arent humans with to much power on their hand and they surely aren't mentally and personalitywise the same way as they were as claymores, there are perhaps some exceptions to that rule(ophelia) but that is always the case if you have a rule you have exceptions.
But you are right, what do those stupid warriors know except what they have been told:eyespin:
OMG in your own words: roflmao :heh:
Rafaela is no indication at all; she was losing herself because she was fusing with her sister, so she decided to give everything she could to Claire. It doesn't prove anything.
I am quite aware that rafaella's description can not be generalized BUT it is still and indication. how dare you to say that "Rafaela is no indication at all". Why because shiek says so? Did raciella awaken or not? So that the old consciousness will be destroyed in the process of awakening and a new one takes his place could be a description for every awakening. Look at the meaning of the word awakening. Something awakens. Again, you are right that raciella was an exception but that doesen't mean that it is no indication at all. I call this unfair discussion style.
And in your last sentence you say: It doesn't prove anything. Well, an indication or in german "hinweis" or hint doesn't prove anything. That is his nature.
The whole point of this forum is too discuss our point-of-views on matters. If we all had the same thought process about everything...why are we even here? To agree with eachother?
This is not a point which has to be discussed. We can discuss only about the degree awakening changes the human mind into a sadistic antisocial and psychopathic personality. But it is a FACT that for most of the claymore if not for all awakening changes their mindset in a negative way.
Shiek927
2010-01-05, 12:18
.........Well that was weird Cyclone 0_o
So many letters were capitalized, I thought their was a hidden message in there :heh:
Hedge isn't saying that Renee is alive, merely the possibility is still open, which I agree with. Irene I'll let go, but I'm not believing anything on Renee until I see a body.
--
Irvine, take a chill pill would ya? You're throwing a Hedge-style temper-tantrum and your "I'm right, you're wrong" line isn't making me excited to even keep this up with you.
So here it comes specially for you OM 55 11, because i know you wouldn't read it anyway even if i mentioned it in my last post:
Well, aren't you rather sure of yourself :heh:
And in your last sentence you say: It doesn't prove anything. Well, an indication or in german "hinweis" or hint doesn't prove anything. That is his nature.
....What the hell does that even mean? :heh: You lost me when you brought up german :heh:
If you wanna take Raciella as part of your argument(which I'm forgetting what it's even about), go ahead. I advise including her at all though when we're talking about a being that re-defines the word "exception".
This is not a point which has to be discussed.
You brought it up pal :heh:
I am quite aware that rafaella's description can not be generalized BUT it is still and indication. how dare you to say that "Rafaela is no indication at all". Why because shiek says so?
How dare I?
What do you mean, "how dare I"? You're acting like I just killed somebody, I just brought up a point :heh:
Jesus Christ, and "why because Shiek says so?", aren't you defensive today.
We can discuss only about the degree awakening changes the human mind into a sadistic antisocial and psychopathic personality. But it is a FACT that for most of the claymore if not for all awakening changes their mindset in a negative way.
Pretending my whole Personality/Psychology point doesn't exist apparently(:rolleyes:), that degree doesn't seem to have a set value Irvine. It seems to be unpredictable, assuming their is a value at all. The mind transforms....and that's it. How far they go from there compared to others, doesn't seem like it can be predicted.
....Irvine, I'm done. You say tomato, I say to-ma-to.
irvinethearcher
2010-01-05, 12:54
Irvine, take a chill pill would ya? You're throwing a Hedge-style temper-tantrum and your "I'm right, you're wrong" line isn't making me excited to even keep this up with you.
The problem is that you totally deny one of the central themes in the manga. Those AB not only change their body and their nutrition but also their minds change significantly. You simply can't deny this.
They aren't human anymore. This is so central i don't believe i have to argue about it with one of the hardcore users here.
About the rafaella argument which imo is a pretty solid one. When i write something about "indication" and i get an answer from you that this is "no proof" and "no indication at all" this is IMO simply bad style.
Pretending my whole Personality/Psychology point doesn't exist apparently(), that degree doesn't seem to have a set value Irvine. It seems to be unpredictable, assuming their is a value at all. The mind transforms....and that's it. How far they go from there compared to others, doesn't seem like it can be predicted.
But you now admit that something happens and that they aren't like human beings anymore. Again, rafaella felt that that thing in her arms wasn't her sister anymore despite it looked like her sister and knew things like her sister and even shed tears. Indeed it was evil and tried to use her to gain power. Therefore rafaella killed awakened Luciella as she had planed it in order to get her real sister who's soul she assumed was still inside her back.
What the hell does that even mean? You lost me when you brought up german
I brought up german because i had extra to search for the meaning of the word indication at leo.org to make sure that i not used a wrong word here." Hinweis" is the german word for hint or indication and something like this proves nothing. But we have so many "Hinweise" here:
1.Miria's talking about the awakened male warriros on the mainland
2.Clare's talking in one of the earlier chapters
3.The black cards
4.What Deneve said and i posted and after that deneve even said undine that it is common knowledge. Hear it: Common knowledge. This is nothing we have to discuss anymore.
5.Priscilla hated yomas and after awakening she behaved worth than a yoma.
Seriously, I feel some people around here base too much of their arguments in speculations they defend so enthusiastically, to the point they end up believing those speculations and/or personal theories as real facts. Actually, speculating is a very sane activitie until you start to believe yourself your own crazy theories as if it were real.
The problem is TOO MANY SPECULATIONS :eyespin:
Shiek927
2010-01-05, 13:47
The problem is that you totally deny one of the central themes in the manga. Those AB not only change their body and their nutrition but also their minds change significantly. You simply can't deny this.
They aren't human anymore. This is so central i don't believe i have to argue about it with one of the hardcore users here.
Is it so wrong that I look at it the way I do? I'm not "denying" it, I'm just looking at it in a different perspective. That's not necessarily denying anything.
I never said AB's were still human, they aren't. You aren't reading what I'm writing the way I intended :eyespin:
Their's no point in me talking with the rest of your points, because you aren't getting where I'm coming from. I've been talking about the personality and psychology of humans and Awakened up till now, whereas you seem to be talking about their biology and whether or not they really are still human or not. It's completely different.
Shiek927
2010-01-05, 14:22
Notably however, the Italian scanlation came out today...and their seems to be words on the side of the page, which isn't present at all in the Franky-House scanlation...0_o
Weird
Translated, it more or less says: "Freed in a flash, the warriors of the Organization Alicia and Beth...what is the objective of Priscilla?"
--
This one as well, says she's looking for the "source of the scent"...which can't be Claire/Teresa;. After all, this trait of Raki has always been his, even before they met. Otherwise, we would have heard by now that Claire has the same quality.
Gangsta Spanksta
2010-01-05, 14:48
@Cyclone:
Hey Cyclone, some of us have a question about the translation. I think the first translation, it made it clear that Priscilla choose to regain her humanity by some other influence than Raki. The Gernot translation makes it seem like it was Clare's scent on Raki that brought her back. We know that Prissy has been following a scent and ended up by Clare and not Raki. So:
Gernot:
血と埃と腐った肉の臭いのたちこめる雪の中…
Amidst the snow that covered the smell of blood, dust, and rotting flesh...
その男についた懐かしい匂いに
Due to the familiar scent that stuck to that man
私は自分自身の意識をとり戻した
I regained my own consciousness
記憶が完全に戻る事はなかったが
Not that my memories returned completely, but
この匂いの先に
私が求めるものがある事だけは
強く確信する事ができた
I became strongly convinced that the thing I am seeking lies at the tip/end of this scent
(t/l: the other end where this scent is leading... source/origin might work, but it’s not really a translation)
その時から私はその男の傍らに身を置き
From that time on, I placed myself by that man’s side
一切の血と肉を口にする事をやめた
and stopped eating any blood and flesh
組織の戦士アリシア＆ベスをいとも簡単に蹴散らしたプリシラ！！彼女の目的とは一体……！？
Priscilla, who extremely easily kicked around the organization’s warriors Alicia and Beth!! Just what is her goal...!?
全てはその匂いの先に辿り着くために
It’s all for the sake of arriving at the tip/end/source of that scent
Seriously, I feel some people around here base too much of their arguments in speculations they defend so enthusiastically, to the point they end up believing those speculations and/or personal theories as real facts. Actually, speculating is a very sane activitie until you start to believe yourself your own crazy theories as if it were real.
This is true for any story. I remember reading someones speculation on a tragic romance story that the reason she was dying was because she was an alien. WTF, an alien? Despite no evidence at all, the theory he presented was done so seriously you could tell he wasn't trolling, that he actually believed it!
Speculation is good and all, but ground it with some reality. Fact - it's a well known story trope that if you don't see a body, there's a good chance the person isn't dead yet. Off screen deaths happen so commonly that you have to take them with a grain of salt.
Are Rene, Irene, Riful, and Dauf dead? Most likely, but because we don't actually see them die the author has the ability to bring them back as he sees fit. If we never see them, we'll have to speculate that they were so unimportant from that point on that they may as well be dead. But it doesn't mean they actually are. These characters, in the eyes of the story have played their role. If they come back, then they have more role to play. If not, then they are gone.
It's pretty cut and dry. Forming fantastic theories with speculation that doesn't fit into the established elements of the story doesn't work.
Here's another. Someone earlier speculated that Clare's actual awakening would make her look like (or be nearly identical to) Teresa. There's no precedent for this, on the other hand when looking at Clare's awakening in Pieta she was more monstrous than ever. Which is more likely, that Clare will look like a monster like every other awakening in the story or that she'll turn into Teresa?
Speculation is fine and all but there's a limit to how crazy you can guess. I can speculate that all of this is taking place on a small island just outside of Japan and that the Organization will be invaded by an army of Japanese Schoolgirls and I could even make up some stuff to make it sound like a solid theory but really, I'm just blowing smoke.
On the other hand, it's easy to spot this stuff and not even bother with discussing it. Find the points you find worth discussing and ignore the rest. Otherwise you'll just get frustrated and say something you'll regret later.
Shiek927
2010-01-05, 15:57
@Cyclone:
Hey Cyclone, some of us have a question about the translation. I think the first translation, it made it clear that Priscilla choose to regain her humanity by some other influence than Raki. The Gernot translation makes it seem like it was Clare's scent on Raki that brought her back. We know that Prissy has been following a scent and ended up by Clare and not Raki. So:
Gernot:
血と埃と腐った肉の臭いのたちこめる雪の中…
Amidst the snow that covered the smell of blood, dust, and rotting flesh...
その男についた懐かしい匂いに
Due to the familiar scent that stuck to that man
私は自分自身の意識をとり戻した
I regained my own consciousness
記憶が完全に戻る事はなかったが
Not that my memories returned completely, but
この匂いの先に
私が求めるものがある事だけは
強く確信する事ができた
I became strongly convinced that the thing I am seeking lies at the tip/end of this scent
(t/l: the other end where this scent is leading... source/origin might work, but it’s not really a translation)
その時から私はその男の傍らに身を置き
From that time on, I placed myself by that man’s side
一切の血と肉を口にする事をやめた
and stopped eating any blood and flesh
組織の戦士アリシア＆ベスをいとも簡単に蹴散らしたプリシラ！！彼女の目的とは一体……！？
Priscilla, who extremely easily kicked around the organization’s warriors Alicia and Beth!! Just what is her goal...!?
全てはその匂いの先に辿り着くために
It’s all for the sake of arriving at the tip/end/source of that scent
I've been going over the translations; depending on where you're looking, the text is different.
However, it doesn't make sense that the "source" is Claire because, the scent has always been something from Raki, not her. Otherwise, we would have Yoma and AB clawing after Claire.
The most we ever got something similar from Claire, is from Ophelia when she tasted her blood and said it was weird; I seriously doubt that's what Priscilla is looking for.
Maybe she wants to meet with Claire, but I doubt she is her end-all be-all objective.
Here's another. Someone earlier speculated that Clare's actual awakening would make her look like (or be nearly identical to) Teresa. There's no precedent for this, on the other hand when looking at Clare's awakening in Pieta she was more monstrous than ever. Which is more likely, that Clare will look like a monster like every other awakening in the story or that she'll turn into Teresa?
I've heard that before, but I think you misread it. People keep saying that her Awakened form will look like what Teresa's would have looked like, or have some features like Teresa's, which would make sense. Never heard anybody say that she will look like a human Teresa which doesn't make much sense 0_0
I doubt Claire will end up looking anything like what Teresa would have become anyway. Odds are she'll look like a straight-up demon or monster, horns and all.
I've heard that before, but I think you misread it. People keep saying that her Awakened form will look like what Teresa's would have looked like, or have some features like Teresa's, which would make sense. Never heard anybody say that she will look like a human Teresa which doesn't make much sense 0_0
I doubt Claire will end up looking anything like what Teresa would have become anyway. Odds are she'll look like a straight-up demon or monster, horns and all.
Either way you read it, it doesn't make sense. How would we know what Teresa would have looked like? Are one of the characters going to say "Oh look, you have Teresa's tail! Kawaii!" when she awakens? :heh:
Yes, Cyclone, if only you could shed some light on what Gangsta posted. We had been wondering about this, earlier, and if it's indeed true that Priscilla had followed Raki because of Clare's scent on him. Discovering she might have fooled him, taken advantage of him and decided to follow him 'cause he could have led her to the source of the scent she was looking for ... and that it wasn't true Raki had in some way changed her is kind of saddening. :( Taking this a bit further, maybe when Raki got injured by the two projectiles, in Ticheri, Prissy might have abandoned him because she had found the source of the scent or understood it was near, didn't need him anymore and so could start to eat again, having no more reasons to behave and keep her promise... :( I'm aware there's still the fact she hadn't eaten him but perhaps that was her way to thank him for having helped her localize the source. I so wish that's not the case because it took me so long to forgive Priscilla and wouldn't want to start to hate her again...
Tsuyoshi
2010-01-05, 18:45
Yes, Cyclone, if only you could shed some light on what Gangsta posted. We had been wondering about this, earlier, and if it's indeed true that Priscilla had followed Raki because of Clare's scent on him. Discovering she might have fooled him, taken advantage of him and decided to follow him 'cause he could have led her to the source of the scent she was looking for ... and that it wasn't true Raki had in some way changed her is kind of saddening. :( Taking this a bit further, maybe when Raki got injured by the two projectiles, in Ticheri, Prissy might have abandoned him because she had found the source of the scent or understood it was near, didn't need him anymore and so could start to eat again, having no more reasons to behave and keep her promise... :( I'm aware there's still the fact she hadn't eaten him but perhaps that was her way to thank him for having helped her localize the source. I so wish that's not the case because it took me so long to forgive Priscilla and wouldn't want to start to hate her again...
Lesson learned: never trust a cute girl with personality disorders :heh:
@ Hege: You can never be sure what happened to Reneé. She did escape from Duff's chase from what we saw, but considering all the things that happened after that, it could've gone either way. You're just presenting devil's proof as though it's concrete evidence. There's no way of knowing if Reneé really is either alive or dead right now. Speculation on my part could say that she's been impaled by the feeder sticks or worse, taken over by one of them. It could've happened just as easily as her escaping without injury.
Lesson learned: never trust a cute girl with personality disorders :heh:
Sure. You can say it loud and clear. :D
SagaraSouske
2010-01-05, 20:54
@Cyclone:
Hey Cyclone, some of us have a question about the translation. I think the first translation, it made it clear that Priscilla choose to regain her humanity by some other influence than Raki. The Gernot translation makes it seem like it was Clare's scent on Raki that brought her back. We know that Prissy has been following a scent and ended up by Clare and not Raki. So:
Gernot:
血と埃と腐った肉の臭いのたちこめる雪の中…
Amidst the snow that covered the smell of blood, dust, and rotting flesh...
その男についた懐かしい匂いに
Due to the familiar scent that stuck to that man
私は自分自身の意識をとり戻した
I regained my own consciousness
記憶が完全に戻る事はなかったが
Not that my memories returned completely, but
この匂いの先に
私が求めるものがある事だけは
強く確信する事ができた
I became strongly convinced that the thing I am seeking lies at the tip/end of this scent
(t/l: the other end where this scent is leading... source/origin might work, but it’s not really a translation)
その時から私はその男の傍らに身を置き
From that time on, I placed myself by that man’s side
一切の血と肉を口にする事をやめた
and stopped eating any blood and flesh
組織の戦士アリシア＆ベスをいとも簡単に蹴散らしたプリシラ！！彼女の目的とは一体……！？
Priscilla, who extremely easily kicked around the organization’s warriors Alicia and Beth!! Just what is her goal...!?
全てはその匂いの先に辿り着くために
It’s all for the sake of arriving at the tip/end/source of that scent
その男についた懐かしい匂いに
It depend on how you translate the ついた in this sentence.
ついた means:
with - which can be
wrapped around in - as in 火のついた wrapped in flame, flaming, etc
include, contain - 機能がついた capability includes xxxx, contains xxxx feature
So this translation basically tries to say that その男 is surrounded with 懐かしい匂い (familiar scent). But the sentence structure would have been like this:
懐かしい匂いのついたその男に. Where the ついた here applies to 匂い and not その男.
But since this is その男についた, it should be translated "from that man, contained within that man." The emphasis is on the man and not the smell. Thus, "Due to the familiar scent from that man..."
Shiek927
2010-01-05, 20:57
Either way you read it, it doesn't make sense. How would we know what Teresa would have looked like? Are one of the characters going to say "Oh look, you have Teresa's tail! Kawaii!" when she awakens? :heh:
I think what people are trying to say, is that she may have some things like Raciella has; maybe a halo, wings(which is extremely likely in my opinion), which people connect with Teresa.
What the Awakened form of a person turns out looking like depends on many things; like true personality, their lifestyle, psychology, what they've done, maybe even imagination and how they see themselves....Claire however, is a mixture of many people now, so I don't think someone is jumping the gun when they think attributes of these people may end up in what her Awakened form looks like.
In my opinion though, I don't think Teresa would have had any sort of angelic-looking awakened form. Perhaps, but for most of her life, she was a destructive bitter woman, to herself and to everyone. Her awakened form I think probably wouldn't be too far off from Priscilla's - a Fallen Angel-type looking form.
その男についた懐かしい匂いに
It depend on how you translate the ついた in this sentence.
ついた means:
with - which can be
wrapped around in - as in 火のついた wrapped in flame, flaming, etc
include, contain - 機能がついた capability includes xxxx, contains xxxx feature
So this translation basically tries to say that その男 is surrounded with 懐かしい匂い (familiar scent). But the sentence structure would have been like this:
懐かしい匂いのついたその男に. Where the ついた here applies to 匂い and not その男.
But since this is その男についた, it should be translated "from that man, contained within that man." The emphasis is on the man and not the smell. Thus, "Due to the familiar scent from that man..."
If I understood that correctly it sounds more like we need to figure out what's familiar from Priscilla's point of view. At the same time though it's kinda confusing since you'd think that being in the southern and western land for the past 7 years she would have found another smell like it by now and not need Raki. That by itself implying an X factor is at work... Yet, how can a scent from Priscilla's past be trapped on Raki without it dissipating over time, it's clearly a scent that Raki's body is producing and not a scent that still lingers on him, whether it's his natural scent or a byproduct of a change is an unknown (IMHO it's very unlikely "the scent of the south"). Isn't playing the how is this translated game fun? Well, were still back at square one... :heh:
Then again it makes total sense that no one can figure this out... since our source is Priscilla. :p I'm sure Yagi was just thinking... OK, How can Priscilla say what's going on and not give it away at the same time...
irvinethearcher
2010-01-05, 21:29
Their's no point in me talking with the rest of your points, because you aren't getting where I'm coming from. I've been talking about the personality and psychology of humans and Awakened up till now, whereas you seem to be talking about their biology and whether or not they really are still human or not. It's completely different.
now you are playing dumb. I never talked about biology. I always was referring to the mindset and that ab normally have a psychopathic, sociopathic and anti-social mindset. You are totally and utterly wrong here to claim that awakening doesn't change the mindset, psychology, behavior, personality or call it whatsoever of a claymore. And there are a lot of indications in the manga. This is a central theme and you stubbornly ignoring it trying to talk yourself out, saying that i am talking about biology. IMO the claymores don't fear the transformation of the body as much as they fear the transformation of their soul. Read again what deneve said to undine.
When i said they werem't human anymore i wanted to say that they don't have emotions or behavior like normal human beings not that they have a tail and wings, you know that quite well.
Probably we never read the same manga.
Shiek927
2010-01-05, 21:58
now you are playing dumb. I never talked about biology. I always was referring to the mindset and that ab normally have a psychopathic, sociopathic and anti-social mindset. You are totally and utterly wrong here to claim that awakening doesn't change the mindset, psychology, behavior, personality or call it whatsoever of a claymore. And there are a lot of indications in the manga. This is a central theme and you stubbornly ignoring it trying to talk yourself out, saying that i am talking about biology. IMO the claymores don't fear the transformation of the body as much as they fear the transformation of their soul. Read again what deneve said to undine.
When i said they werem't human anymore i wanted to say that they don't have emotions or behavior like normal human beings not that they have a tail and wings, you know that quite well.
Probably we never read the same manga.
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Irvine, I don't know how you read my points, excuse me for thinking you just may have been confused. If you wanna keep up your little temper-tantrum and insult me, I'll just ignore you.
I never said Awakening doesn't change a person, you're putting words in my mouth. My whole arguement is that Awakening doesn't change their personality, not the way people see it. Rather, it just changes their psychology and outlook.
In short, I don't see the white-to-black transformation that others do. I just seem them as human beings with terrifying new bodily requirements, and more power then they know what to do with it.
Their intelligence is the same, their personalities are the same, they retain their memories(with one exception, maybe two)...I feel their is enough evidence to stipulate they are basically the same people at the core, as they were as human beings. More deadly and dangerous, yes, but the same nonetheless.
When i said they werem't human anymore i wanted to say that they don't have emotions or behavior like normal human beings
May I ask what kind of behaviors and emotions "normal" human beings have then?
Let's see, we've seen...
lust, anger, fear, sarcasm, greed, guilt, love, irritation, pain, teasing, excitement, shock, surprise....
(I would name hunger, but that's not really an emotion per se)
I could keep bringing up more emotions we've seen from Awakened; if they have been faking them, each and every single time, damn, the transformation must make them really good actors. If Yagi really intended them to just be evil flat-out monsters, he should have made their skin green or something, less confusing and less interesting that way.
I mean Isley, the whole turning-over-a-new-leaf...and those final thoughts of his? Wow, almost fooled me.
Irvine, enough. You said I'm trying to get out of the convo, well, now I am. This is getting sillier and sillier with every post, and I'm tired of talking to someone who keeps insulting me anyway. If you want to reply, be my guest, I doubt I'm gonna reply back whatever name you decide to call me.
Then again it makes total sense that no one can figure this out... since our source is Priscilla. I'm sure Yagi was just thinking... OK, How can Priscilla say what's going on and not give it away at the same time...
Roflmao, Yagi ALWAY does that :heh:
now you are playing dumb. I never talked about biology. I always was referring to the mindset and that ab normally have a psychopathic, sociopathic and anti-social mindset. You are totally and utterly wrong here to claim that awakening doesn't change the mindset, psychology, behavior, personality or call it whatsoever of a claymore. And there are a lot of indications in the manga. This is a central theme and you stubbornly ignoring it trying to talk yourself out, saying that i am talking about biology. IMO the claymores don't fear the transformation of the body as much as they fear the transformation of their soul. Read again what deneve said to undine.
When i said they werem't human anymore i wanted to say that they don't have emotions or behavior like normal human beings not that they have a tail and wings, you know that quite well.
Probably we never read the same manga.
When you refer to what deneve said to undine (Paraphrased)... the desire for power and the craving... and the knot of ugly black emotions deep inside of you. When Clare in the Slashers arc said (Paraphrased)... suffering and ecstasy. So your right that the mindset does change but they clearly have emotions and often show behavior like normal human beings. It's just that at best they can't control there inhibitions and at worst they don't want to. When having the power of monsters and a craving for human flesh, a bad mixture.
Now getting back to what Deneve and Clare said... it can be interpreted in several ways. 1) That it brings out the worst and most basic impulses in people and just making them naturally that way (kinda evil but not by free will). 2) That what comes out reflects the person deepest dark desires and if already had been acted upon often (like Bloody Agatha) then it amplifies them or makes them more dominate (Similar to 1 but with more taking the character into consideration.). 3) That it removes all checks in the mind to controlling ones self, for example thereby a thought of proving your power over someone will always be acted upon rather then having a chance of being suppressed (victims to there own base natures but still a threat). In all cases it's clear inhibition for the most part doesn't exist, unless threat of death is present (Agatha could hold back for example). Left to ones own devices though inhibition don't seem to exist.
However I don't see where it says that the previous mind is completely gone either. They aren't replaced but modified, it's like being hacked in Ghost in the Shell but the hacker only brings out your impulses and desires and removes all inhibition, leaving all the memories intact (Lets ignore Priscilla here, since we don't know why she's lost her marbles.). Your still you but a new version... which the previous one would despise due to it's actions and lack of control.
You clam a theme... when there is a congruent theme of keeping control even when losing ones mind. Both are one in my opinion and while Awakening (the "normal way") does transform an individual there is nothing indicating that they're completely replaced... that goes well beyond the philosophy and metaphysics of what has been implied in the manga. In fact the very fact that 5 individuals (so far) have kept there minds means, continuity wise, there is room for someone reversing an awakening after it has happened. As unlikely as that seems now.
Now it's really hard to look for evidence of what is replaced/changed by an awakening. Some people claim Riful and Dauf show love can still exist... but there "love" can just as easily be explained by lust and ecstasy as well as real love. Yet, two ABs willingly letting themselves die implies they can override there base impulses. Not to mention Rigardo giving up his freedom and serving because of a promise is hard to explain when someone is a purely impulsive creature. We saw that Isley didn't seem to mind the idea of Rigardo running of (since Isley was more of a loner), yet Rigardo stayed much to Isley's confusion. (though Isley did like hearing that Rigardo knew his place...) While Riful did brag about finding RaphaelaXLuciela like she had found a great discount while shopping... a very human action. They've shown shock, fear, sarcasm, teasing, rage, breaking down/crying, fear of death, self-sacrifice, fear of loss, excitement, superiority, wraith, etc...
ABs seem to be more "basic" in how they react... though that isn't a rule of thumb. They've shown to be very complex characters at times beyond being a pure monster. Which is probably what scares "Claymores" most of all about awakening... The thought... "It'll still be... me".
Shiek927
2010-01-05, 22:51
When you refer to what deneve said to undine (Paraphrased)... the desire for power and the craving... and the knot of ugly black emotions deep inside of you. When Clare in the Slashers arc said (Paraphrased)... suffering and ecstasy. So your right that the mindset does change but they clearly have emotions and often show behavior like normal human beings. It's just that at best they can't control there inhibitions and at worst they don't want to. When having the power of monsters and a craving for human flesh, a bad mixture.
That's exactly what I've been trying to tell Irvine, Ryus; their psychology changes because of their awesome unrivaled power, coupled with their craving, but their personality underneath is still the same. After all, they were all born human. It's like giving a little kid a loaded gun or something.
I can understand the notion that they are more "basic", amoral, or whatever you want to call it because of what they now can get away with, but they haven't changed; they all retain their memories and emotions; Rigardo and Isley still had their tenuous friendship(though it was a bit one-sided), Isley tried to change his ways, Luciella still loved her sister, Riful and Dauf loved eachother, Alicia and Beth fought and died protecting eachother...we've seen several of them cry and, I don't know about you, but Crying isn't exactly the first thing that comes to mind when I think of the word Monster.
If you want to say they aren't human and don't have emotions, I ask, what IS to be human then? After all, that in itself is a theme of the story, as we've seen some humans, like those bandits, who are worse then the real monsters. Who are the real monsters? What is a monster? What is a human being? What seperates the two? After all, Claymores are monsters in the end too. You can say what you will about them, but at the end of the day, they aren't perfectly 100% human either.
Shiek927
2010-01-05, 23:59
The trick Hedge, is that we have some Awakened who are quite content and happy to eat humans and do whatever they want(Riful). Often times, I compare Awakening to addictions like alcohol. It's up to you to decide just how much you let your cravings(in this case, for humans) take control of you.
I also wouldn't say that Luciella's wish for conquest overrode her love, quite the opposite. The way I see it, Luciella simply wanted her sister to be there for her, like she always did. She thought the bond between them would forever exist, regardless of what they did. Which is why she was excited, saying things like they could do anything together and would be invincible. If anything, she put too much weight into it, which is why she was so shocked when Rafaela starting crushing her.
Obviously, I can understand Rafaela wasn't too keen on the idea, but I don't think Luciella's love for her was warped, forgotten, lost or anything. She just thought her sister would agree with anything she said, because they are siblings and appear close. It was more of simply being a bad idea and Luciella didn't think so.
Shiek927
2010-01-06, 00:06
oh.... i see....
every human being and claymore secretly have cravings of cannabalism (eating themselves-humans), and they are all secretly psychotic and criminal despite their complete opposite personalities and behaviors as humans and claymores.
there's NO change from them becoming AB/AO.... they were always like this way... but for some reason, that maybe you could help me understand, they now feel that they can let out their "real" evil selves that they kept secretly inside....
shiek,
FOLLOW THE YELOW BRICK ROAD, and come back "home" (to Yagi's Claymore manga and common sense) !!!!
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Daaaaaaamn, Hedge, step right up and join Irvine in having the inability to understand what a comparison is.
Maybe I should just stop trying to simplify my posts with comparisons; I didn't think people would take things so extreme, so personally, and flat-out not get it, that I can't lighten things up without somebody blowing their top and saying I lack common sense :heh:.
Shiek927
2010-01-06, 00:13
i understand a comparison 100%.
what i don't understand is your post and what you said in it.
Then read it again, I wasn't speaking in Borginese
(Phoenix Wright reference :heh:)
--
You know, we didn't see any Feeders this month...guess that means they're all finally squashed. How many were their in total?
Shiek927
2010-01-06, 00:26
shiek,
your "slowness" is getting irritating.
i don't understand the CONTENT of your post. I KNOW WHAT YOU SAID! and i find it 100% CRAZY
Alright, I'll make things simple, and do you and Irvine a favor: you're right, I'm wrong, and I'm crazy.
There, feel better? Can we move on with our lives please? :rolleyes:
:heh:
(i'll do so far these) three examples :
1. Priscilla: SHE DID CHANGE
Claymore: would NOT fight unfairly and complained to Irene when Irene saidthat they all need to attack Teresa. had extreme ideal of ORDER. would not harm humans. fought yoma to protect humans. Scared (of Teresa). humble, modest, non-ruthless (cared when irene got hurt). looked up to irene.
AO: fights unfairly (Teresa's death). ZERO interest in the extreme ideal of ORDER she had as a Claymore. DEVOURS humans, lots of them! totally non-scared. Cocky, arrogant, ruthless. tried to kill the same irene she looked up to as a claymore. killed sophia and noel.
I don't know about you but I haven't seen her tag team anyone since awakening. :p She even let Raki take on his own opponent, until someone far too strong showed up. So how is she dishonorable now...
Next of she has reason to be cocky. She knows she's the strongest by far her arrogance is based upon this. The ruthless part is false since she did give Beth the chance to retreat. However once in a fight she is ruthless and unless your saying she wouldn't have killed Teresa if she had the chance as a Claymore... then I fail to see how this has changed.
Finally did Priscilla look up to Irene or did she just trust her experience? There's a big difference. Plus that girl Noel was a bit of a bitch to her and Sophia was on her side. :heh: Plus a lot of people taking someone trying to kill them personally and others just remove the threat without taking it personally.
As to the eating part.. well she's hungry and we all know her dietary requirements have changed.
2. Alicia+Beth: unknown if changed
Claymores: Obedient "robots" (no signs of emotions).
AOs: deep love/feeling/emotions for each other.
Uh... so your saying no change? or what?
3. Luciela: possible change (or at least over-ridden "change")
Claymore: loved her sister
AO: her yoma desire for conquest over-rode her love for her sister
We don't know how Luciela was before awakening so... how can we debate a change here...
Now to explain Luciela differently... then being uncaring. Simply put, we don't even know what Luciela was thinking, so everything is speculation. All we know is how Raphaela took the what her sister said.
For all we know she believed her sister had shown up to rescue her/join her in battle. After all she wasn't with a hunting party and she didn't attack her (in fact she left her sword in the ground and ran into her arms). She could have very much assumed her sister came when she found out that Isley was heading her way. Her logical conclusion could have been she's just run away from the organization and what else is there to do for a run away Claymore besides awakening. So that must be why she's here. So a very weak a desperate women sees her sister approaching after she's been beaten up and naturally looks to her for help and makes a few bad assumptions. In fact she could have even been thinking of just what it'd be like to be with her sister again but as an awakened being (her being the older and dominate sister, #1 vs #2. So she says my lands and such.).
Now who knows how much of that is true... but it's does show that we don't know what Luciela thoughts were at the time. We have nothing to judge her actions with besides Raphaela killing her and a few self centered words (and for an AB used to being #1 that's not too extreme of a stance). However Luciela's reaction to seeing her sister again was very clear... LOVE. Part of her still remained.
Alright, I'll make things simple, and do you and Irvine a favor: you're right, I'm wrong, and I'm crazy.
There, feel better? Can we move on with our lives please? :rolleyes:
:heh:
Take your backhanded "win" HK. :heh:
Shiek927
2010-01-06, 00:36
Take your backhanded "win" HK.
For some reason, that trick seems to work with women easily, especially my mother :heh:
yes, feels much better, can you keep saying that? (j/k)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
about the AFs/AEs :
1. we just don't know.
2. the Organization can definately make more AFs/AEs, unless there's no more ABs on the island.... lol... and even then... ABs can be made easily... then killed... then they can continue making AFs/AEs. the Organization can truly make an endless supply of monsters (ABs and/or AEs/AFs) with the only limiting "agent" is the human population.
3. the AFs/AEs that were last seen gobbling up Isley, are still "there"-alive for all we know. not sure what they doing... now that they no longer have Isley to hunt his scent....
"how many were there in total?" -shiek
not determinable!
(we have no idea how many times and/or how many Isley had killed)
:stupid:
He meant in the batch against Riful since it was clearly larger then the 11 Isley kept getting every time. Not over the last seven years. People were counting them a while ago if you recall.
I recall arguing against MisterJB that Riful didn't kill the same one twice since the stab wounds were different. :heh: Brings back memories... :p
Shiek927
2010-01-06, 00:51
I recall arguing against MisterJB that Riful didn't kill the same one twice since the stab wounds were different. Brings back memories...
Hah; for whatever reason, I don't know why, but I remember that clearly too :heh:
And yes, the batch against Riful was waaay too big to simply be 11. Not surprising though that they would send everyone they had.
:dots:
I'm waiting for an argument... or is it too much work HK? :p
Hah; for whatever reason, I don't know why, but I remember that clearly too :heh:
And yes, the batch against Riful was waaay too big to simply be 11. Not surprising though that they would send everyone they had.
It was the "/" stab wound vs the "\" stab wound that made you remember, right? :heh:
PRISCILLA SO COMPLETELY CHANGED!!!!
No. Priscilla didn't change at all. The only difference between Priscilla Claymore and Priscilla Awakened is that one built up a wall of defenses using rules and justice against the hatred and fear of Yoma that scarred her as a youth and the other lost all of that and became that monster.
They were both equally screwed in the head, but that wall broke down the more she awakened. She didn't care about justice or fairness, she used them to hide her true emotions and to hold together her fragile mind.
Consider that we've seen "three" Priscilla's in Awakened state. The first revels in the pleasure of awakening but is still lucid enough to recognize where she is and what she's become. The second is the disoriented and regressed Priscilla in the North who appears to remember nothing of her Claymore/Awakened self, and finally the third who appears to be a mix of both, but more towards her first state. If you were to look at it from a psychology point of view, she hasn't pieced together herself into one cohesive individual. She's still split between little girl and monster.
Awakening might change your outlook on things but it doesn't change what you fundamentally are inside as a person. Priscilla was always a broken girl with a tragic past.
I think what people are trying to say, is that she may have some things like Raciella has; maybe a halo, wings(which is extremely likely in my opinion), which people connect with Teresa.
What the Awakened form of a person turns out looking like depends on many things; like true personality, their lifestyle, psychology, what they've done, maybe even imagination and how they see themselves....Claire however, is a mixture of many people now, so I don't think someone is jumping the gun when they think attributes of these people may end up in what her Awakened form looks like.
In my opinion though, I don't think Teresa would have had any sort of angelic-looking awakened form. Perhaps, but for most of her life, she was a destructive bitter woman, to herself and to everyone. Her awakened form I think probably wouldn't be too far off from Priscilla's - a Fallen Angel-type looking form.
Well that's fair. Clare did say "So this is the form you wished for in the end" to Raciella, so the theory that Awakening is driven by a personal desire holds merit. For instance her awakening in the North was driven by her desire to be faster and to cut down Rigaldo, so it makes sense that she's full of blades and kangaroo legs. :heh:
If I were to speculate on her final awakened form (if it happens), I think it would be very simple and focused. Something like Ichigo's bankai in Bleach, which doesn't really change his appearance but boosts his abilities dramatically. I think her final form will be humanoid in appearance similar to Priscilla, but with less of the Fallen Angel look and more toward Avenging Angel.
And yes I double posted. I missed Shiek's response earlier.
Awakened
2010-01-06, 01:33
I still think Teresa will make a comeback when Clare awaken. They have the name of the Twin-Goddess. There must be more to the Goddess thing than just name. It could just be that Teresa is part of Clare, but a half Teresa half Clare awaken Clare is still possible.
I admit, it would be uncomfortable to see Clare looking exactly like a dead woman, but Clare having Teresa's hair, or half her face looking like Teresa might give a unique look.
Edit:
Teresa is part of Clare motivation/drive to keep on living. According to Clare Rafaela Ab form had to do with her desire. It is very likely Teresa would influence Clare's Ab form (not directly).
If Clare awaken in front of Priscilla, what better way to start the rematch than to bring back Teresa.
I still think Teresa will make a comeback when Clare awaken. They have the name of the Twin-Goddess. There must be more to the Goddess thing than just name. It could just be that Teresa is part of Clare, but a half Teresa half Clare awaken Clare is still possible.
I admit, it would be uncomfortable to see Clare looking exactly like a dead woman, but Clare having Teresa's hair, or half her face looking like Teresa might give a unique look.
Edit:
Teresa is part of Clare motivation/drive to keep on living. According to Clare Rafaela Ab form had to do with her desire. It is very likely Teresa would influence Clare's Ab form (not directly).
If Clare awaken in front of Priscilla, what better way to start the rematch than to bring back Teresa.
If that happens I'd rather see both of them looking just like the statue... Which has Clare's longer hair style. Though I'm not sure who's face...
Though I really doubt that outcome...
Awakened
2010-01-06, 01:42
If that happens I'd rather see both of them looking just like the statue... Which has Clare's longer hair style. Though I'm not sure who's face...
Though I really doubt that outcome...
That might be a better option, but only if its only one head. We don't need any more two headed monsters.
That might be a better option, but only if its only one head. We don't need any more two headed monsters.
:heh: Two separate beings detached from one another.
Awakened
2010-01-06, 01:46
:heh: Two separate beings detached from one another.
lol, they could be like the Twins. They would be in a permanent soul link.
But how would they recombine after they finish fighting?
This might be way to complicated.
lol, they could be like the Twins. They would be in a permanent soul link.
But how would they recombine after they finish fighting?
This might be way to complicated.
The Fusion Dance of course!
Awakened
2010-01-06, 01:59
The Fusion Dance of course!
lol, We need a demonstration.
lol, We need a demonstration.
It would take a great artist to capture the awesomeness of that moment. Alas, all I can picture is Helen and Deneve in the role of Trunks and Goten. ^^
lol, We need a demonstration.
oh god, be careful what you wish for.
_790fZAcYks
oh god, be careful what you wish for.
*snickers* I've always loved Vegeta's reaction to the dance. :heh:
Anyway, we're probably veering off topic but it was nice to see a break from the usual monthly debates. ^^
Tsuyoshi
2010-01-06, 04:07
oh god, be careful what you wish for.
_790fZAcYks
/off-topic
As cheesy as that dance is, that movie was the best thing that happened to DBZ after Bardock's story. I actually liked the English dubs way better than the Japanese version, especially the soundtrack when Goku goes SSJ3 and then the fusion. I always get deeply excited from watching those scenes.
/on-topic
I think if Clare awakens, Teresa will definitely make some kind of come-back but I don't think it'll be in any physical manifestation. I actually think if Teresa will appear, she'll appear within Clare's mind as she did after Miria gave Clare the beating of a lifetime after their first sparring match, during the first awakened being hunt Clare took part in. She'll be giving Clare guidence, probably, and more control over Teresa's gift as well as power.
I don't think it's going to be like a physical manifestation or something like that either.:) That would be so wrong, things like that just doesn't happen in the claymore world.:)
Tsuyoshi
2010-01-06, 04:50
1st sparring between Clare and Miria:
Clare fights Miria ENTIRELY by trying to follow/sense Miria's YOKI, which is absolutely AMAZING since Miria wasn't using/releasing any yoki!
Miria finally realizes it afterward while pinned to the ground with the male AB's tongue fondling her from the inside, as she watches Clare show her what she couldn't see/realize during their sparring. Clare has Teresa's "Faint Smile". The BANE of all monsters, especially Priscilla.
Helen and Deneve never figure it out or realize it. They just know Clare is dodging the male AB's attacks BEFOREHAND. They didn't have the "insight" to make the connection to Clare's and Miria's sparring match.
As usual, you did not read my post properly, if at all. I am commenting on how Teresa will appear should Clare awaken, saying that she will appear before Clare as she did after her first match with Miria. I am not talking at all about what happened in the actual fight between Miria and Clare.
Tsuyoshi
2010-01-06, 05:20
i know what your post's main content is.
i was NOT responding to that.
i WAS responding to what i've boldened for you to see above in the quote of your post.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
a word of wisdom:
don't be so quick to make degrading assumptions of others, as you'll just embarrass yourself, like you have now
She still took a beating, and it wasn't what I was mainly referring to. You're addressing a different topic from what I am altogether.
i'm interested what/where in the manga (manga chapters and page numbers) you're basing this off of?
considering you stated i'm "WRONG" and you're "RIGHT", YOU are OBLIGATED to provide evidence/support for such an audacious statement.
otherwise, it's quite *OFFENSIVE* and UTTER SPECULARIZATION and does NOT in the slightest shows that i'm wrong, as you so claim.
Hege, for you I will craft a post of such epic quality that the skies will part, the angels will sing, and Teresa will rise from the dead.
Tomorrow.
When I wake up.
And after some coffee.
@Cyclone:
Hey Cyclone, some of us have a question about the translation. I think the first translation, it made it clear that Priscilla choose to regain her humanity by some other influence than Raki. The Gernot translation makes it seem like it was Clare's scent on Raki that brought her back. We know that Prissy has been following a scent and ended up by Clare and not Raki. So:
Gernot:
血と埃と腐った肉の臭いのたちこめる雪の中…
Amidst the snow that covered the smell of blood, dust, and rotting flesh...
その男についた懐かしい匂いに
Due to the familiar scent that stuck to that man
私は自分自身の意識をとり戻した
I regained my own consciousness
記憶が完全に戻る事はなかったが
Not that my memories returned completely, but
この匂いの先に
私が求めるものがある事だけは
強く確信する事ができた
I became strongly convinced that the thing I am seeking lies at the tip/end of this scent
(t/l: the other end where this scent is leading... source/origin might work, but it’s not really a translation)
その時から私はその男の傍らに身を置き
From that time on, I placed myself by that man’s side
一切の血と肉を口にする事をやめた
and stopped eating any blood and flesh
組織の戦士アリシア＆ベスをいとも簡単に蹴散らしたプリシラ！！彼女の目的とは一体……！？
Priscilla, who extremely easily kicked around the organization’s warriors Alicia and Beth!! Just what is her goal...!?
全てはその匂いの先に辿り着くために
It’s all for the sake of arriving at the tip/end/source of that scent
This translation looks about right.
I'm not convinced the translation implies anything to do with Clare though.
I'd personally say:
"familiar scent connected/attached to that man" instead of "stuck to". The verb is tsuku - to adjoin; to be attached; to adhere; to be connected with; to be dyed; to be stained; to be scarred; to be recorded; to start (fires); to follow; to become allied to; to accompany; to study with; to increase; to be added to
As for the other bit, the key word is 先 (saki). It's one of those words that has a hundred meanings based on context, time, the latest sports results, and God only knows what else. The dictionary gives:
point (e.g. pencil); destination; tip; end; nozzle; head (of a line); the first priority; the future; objective; sequel; remainder; the other party; future; previous; prior; former
I think most reasonable reading would be "destination/future" - in another words, the "what that smell leads to" (as opposed to "where this smell leads to") is what Priscilla became strongly convinced that only that can return her to who she was.
Personally, I think the used more in a meta-physical sense, then an actual destination - i.e. prolonged exposure to the Raki's noisomeness, rather than the location where he cures his Clare obsession.
The last bit, also uses the same word - saki. Except tadoritsuku means:
to struggle on to; to arrive somewhere after a struggle; to grope along to; to barely manage to reach; to finally arrive at; to finally hit on (e.g. an idea);
So I think a better way to translate it is:
"Everything, in order to struggle towards what that smell leads to [lit: to the saki of that smell]."
In English, I think for saki we'd say "source", but here it's more like "tip, destination".
My personal interpretation from all this is still that Raki's noxious fumes are the thing that's awakening the memories of who she was, rather than sing Raki to follow some 3rd party odor like a bloodhound.
Again - I could be wrong, of course... Just another opinion - throw it in the hopper with the rest of them.
--
edit: Just noticed Sagara beat me to it by hours... that's what I get by keeping the reply window open and taking a nap.
You be convinced any way you want, Hege. I will point out a few things though:
- Priscilla was regressed before she ever met Isley.
- I have posted my thoughts on Priscilla and how she got into this regressed state earlier in this thread.
- We have no official reason why Priscilla left Raki (I have a theory, of course - one I have posted on several occasions before).
MichaelAngelo
2010-01-06, 10:35
Who do you think was the last light Priscilla stated at the Pieta battle, was it Clare or Miria?
Shiek927
2010-01-06, 12:09
Well that's fair. Clare did say "So this is the form you wished for in the end" to Raciella, so the theory that Awakening is driven by a personal desire holds merit. For instance her awakening in the North was driven by her desire to be faster and to cut down Rigaldo, so it makes sense that she's full of blades and kangaroo legs. :heh:
If I were to speculate on her final awakened form (if it happens), I think it would be very simple and focused. Something like Ichigo's bankai in Bleach, which doesn't really change his appearance but boosts his abilities dramatically. I think her final form will be humanoid in appearance similar to Priscilla, but with less of the Fallen Angel look and more toward Avenging Angel.
And yes I double posted. I missed Shiek's response earlier.
An Avenging Angel?
What does an Avenging Angel look like? :twitch:
I always thought, that Claire's form will look the most demonic and traditionally "monster-like" that we've seen - bat-wings, horns, hooked tail, hooves, fangs...
I think Chibamonster said it best when he compared her to a Satyr.
--
ROFLMAO, "Utter Speculerization"
Hedge, thank you for making that up and making me laugh :heh:
irvinethearcher
2010-01-06, 12:59
However I don't see where it says that the previous mind is completely gone either. They aren't replaced but modified, it's like being hacked in Ghost in the Shell but the hacker only brings out your impulses and desires and removes all inhibition, leaving all the memories intact (Lets ignore Priscilla here, since we don't know why she's lost her marbles.). Your still you but a new version... which the previous one would despise due to it's actions and lack of control.
You clam a theme... when there is a congruent theme of keeping control even when losing ones mind. Both are one in my opinion and while Awakening (the "normal way") does transform an individual there is nothing indicating that they're completely replaced... that goes well beyond the philosophy and metaphysics of what has been implied in the manga. In fact the very fact that 5 individuals (so far) have kept there minds means, continuity wise, there is room for someone reversing an awakening after it has happened. As unlikely as that seems now.
Now about rafaella:
OM 92 15. Only to make this clear. I never said that awakening occurs exactely this way but imo it is a good source to base a theory on.
Rafaella:
This form that you see before you is woven from your own borrowed memmories. It will be destroyed when my true awkening occurs, whether you strike me down or not.
So i think now that the same occurs during any awakening. Deep in the subconsciousness another personality is building during the life of a claymore. This being, mixed of the memories of the human and the yoma flesh becomes stronger the more yoki the claymore releases and slowly or suddenly it takes over and if that is the case the former self will be erased like rafaella explained it. It is not my own, i think it was from Gangsta. At least this would explain why those AB have some human traits as well and aren't only yoma.
And if you are still right this would at least not contradict with what i have written before.
@shiek927's post: See that is what i meant with becoming a perverted version of his former self after awakening. I doubt isley was that kind of guy as a claymore. Perhaps he was a cold blooded strategist but not a calculating monster.
This is only a theory for normal awakening. What happens during an half awakening is unclear too. I would say that human mind wins an already lost battle against the yoma(mixed with human) consciousness, often because it is anchored by an extern event.(Raki hugging clare, Ophelia provoking miria)
that is what we know about isley:
OM 56 08
Isley was fascinated by raki's sword and remembered his past life. His awakened form uses human weapons, therefore it is quite possible that he once was a strong warrior.
Isley: Becoming strong isn't that easy, once you have power you can lose it again as well. And above all else you might
even need to sacrifice your own life for that power.
This (IMO) indicates that isley wasn't always the way he is now.
We know absolutely nothing about Isley whatsoever when he was a Claymore, the same goes for all the Males.
Yes we don't know, but honestly, what isley said seems to be almost autobiographical to me.
And if he spoke about himself he did not say that the power had corrupted him, like you said in another post. No he sacrificed his life for that power. This would mean that he thinks that his claymore self died during awakening and was replaced by something else otherwise why did he spoke of a sacrifice of his life despite being still alive?
If anything, the very fact he didn't care for them despite their long history is evidence he is simply a callous bastard, and awakening had nothing to do with it.
After all we have seen and heared from awakening and changing the mind of the claymore, i have no words for this, sorry.
And i am no fan of isley, only of the manga.
Finally what clare said in OM 4 21:
We have to use our human intelligence to control our monster strength to survive. Simply put, we are human heads on monster's bodies.
But even though we are half monster half human, we stand on the human side to slay monsters as our goal.
the human emotions and monster strength battle each other within, when the human emotions lose the monster's strength will take over. We know the limits of our human emotions, we know we will become monsters one day. When that time comes...
We think.." i want to die ... as a human".
OM 11 7
Clare:
So while i still have a human consciousness i am ending up my life.
In another scene she even spoke of becoming a yoma.
IMO it is pretty clear that she didn't spoke about tails three heads, claws and wings. this was all about the human mind which will change after awakening.
I made a mistake in one of my last posts to not write something like "normal" humans instead of humans because those bandits were humans too and still less than a yoma.
but someone who would have read and understood my posts before wouldn't have had problems with understanding what i wanted to say.
OK, post for Hedge.
All the evidence I have supporting my "claim" is located in the Marked for Death Chapters, the Priscilla special chapter, and Raki's time spent with her in the North. Obviously the Priscilla of now is still fresh in our memory, so there's no need to link to that.
We'll start with Marked for Death, the final day of Teresa.
Chapter 18, page 28. Irene comments "And she hates Yoma more than anyone."
Chapter 20, page 05. Priscilla refused to sneak attack Teresa because it wouldn't be fair.
Chapter 22, page 09. Priscilla calls out to her Papa because she is afraid of dying. Teresa spares her.
Chapter 22, page 15. Priscilla snaps, using her justice to suppress her fear.
Chapter 23, page 14. The entire page.
Chapter 23, page 15. She says she crept behind her father (who was a Yoma) and cut off his head. The same Priscilla who previously said things like "it wouldn't be fair, it would be cowardly, etc."
We know the rest from here. She tricks Teresa, cutting off her hands and then her head, and completes her awakening. After this she drops any reservations about killing, and no remorse when she is attacked. While she is lucid (24, page 13), she also doesn't show concern that she's become the thing she hates (24, page 5 & 6). This is different than when she pleaded with Teresa to kill her because she didn't want to become a Yoma (23, page 19).
In the North, when she meets Isley, she's completely out of her mind. It's like she regressed back to her childhood (Extra Scene 3, page 30). She stays like this until the recent chapters, showing she has become more aware but still not fully complete between the little girl who misses her parents and the monster she has become.
You could almost think of the Awakened Priscilla as an auto defense mechanism, designed to protect the small shred of humanity left in her mind. Her actions reflect this, from cutting down those who attack her but refusing to attack if opponents leave her alone (Beth and Alicia) or those she becomes attached to (like Raki), unless she becomes hungry.
It isn't like the other Claymore have rosy childhoods either, but Priscilla never should have become a Claymore. The trauma affected her too much, and her strong sense of justice was a big indicator that she could easily snap when put into a situation where those morals and ethics were questioned. Irene herself said she put too much faith in her strength, but didn't properly factor in her emotional state (Chapter 22, page 17). This leads to Chapter 22, page 32, where Teresa notes that Priscilla is losing her mind.
It almost makes you think that the Organization was aware of the possibility, and decided that she was useful to the task of killing Teresa either way. If she did the job as a Claymore, wonderful. If she awakened and killed Teresa, wonderful. Given that the other Awakened moved into their own territories after awakening I'm sure the Organization had no troubles assuming she would do the same. Either way it's an interesting experiment for them.
The big big question in my mind, is that we need to know what happened in those seven years with Priscilla and Raki. It is clear they are close, enough for her to stop eating and travel with him as a companion. That alone would really show more insight into her personality, as well as this upcoming chapter with Clare meeting her again.
Remember that Raki is completely aware of what Priscilla is, despite Renee warning him that he's traveling with a monster. So somewhere between his meeting with Isley and when we see Raki again, he learned the truth and became okay with it. How much of the truth he knows is a different matter, but it's enough that we need to know what role he played in her stopping herself from eating and traveling with him.
@Shiek - Avenging Angel means angel of wrath. Think of Clare like a Paladin and Priscilla like a Shadow Knight. If Priscilla is a Fallen Angel, Clare is the Angel of Retribution. Not quite as noble, but I suspect the symbolism of the Clare and Teresa statue will play a part in her look in the sense that Raciella is the dark and twisted version of that statue.
*sips coffee*
Shiek927
2010-01-06, 14:45
I don't think Priscilla should not have been a Claymore - by all accounts, she's perfect. She's the only one besides Cynthia and Jean, who truly care for humans and did their job because they want to help them out of a desire, not a need. She's wasn't selfish, she was selfless. If she were around during Claire's generation, she probably would have been sent to Pieta like Cynthia and Jean were - because their honor and love for humans is a "bad thing".
Unfortunately, the Organization didn't care for any of this, they just cared about her power - they were looking for an excuse to get rid of Teresa and have someone who was just a powerful(perhaps more so), and more "docile" and willing to obey them. In the mean-time, they respected her semi-obedience to them and her power, but once they caught her with killing the bandits, they had what they wanted.
With more time, she probably would have ended up like Cynthia - understanding that humans don't care for them, but honorable and happy all the same.
Right but unlike Cynthia or Jean, Priscilla was very naive in her views of the world. Wanting to help is one thing, but refusing to understand the complexities of "right" vs "wrong" is another. Priscilla wasn't enforcing justice, just obeying the Organization because killing humans is "wrong". Teresa was just an outlet to project her rationalizing on.
I'd peg Priscilla more like Dietrich, although Dietrich clearly has better intuition.
Shiek927
2010-01-06, 14:57
Right but unlike Cynthia or Jean, Priscilla was very naive in her views of the world. Wanting to help is one thing, but refusing to understand the complexities of "right" vs "wrong" is another. Priscilla wasn't enforcing justice, just obeying the Organization because killing humans is "wrong". Teresa was just an outlet to project her rationalizing on.
I'd peg Priscilla more like Dietrich, although Dietrich clearly has better intuition.
Uh uh
Thing is, Dietrich is a grown woman, not to mention she has seen the darker side of what the Organization is doing(taking women and mutliating them into the Eaters), so she clearly is OKAY with it.
Do you really think Priscilla would be okay if she learned the Organization was doing this?
Their aren't many I imagine, but girls like her probably aren't uncommon - after all, some families sell their children to the Organization and they try to rationalize the decision by saying stuff like, "they are going to be heroes" and save people from demons, yadda yadda yadda.
Then they all grow up like Teresa, and realize things don't work that way, and the order for which they work for is the source for the evil she was trained to purge.
She wouldn't grow up to be like Dietrich - Cynthia, Jean, and Priscilla love humanity, not the Organization. For Dietrich, it seems to be the opposite.
Tsuyoshi
2010-01-06, 15:07
I don't think Priscilla should not have been a Claymore - by all accounts, she's perfect. She's the only one besides Cynthia and Jean, who truly care for humans and did their job because they want to help them out of a desire, not a need. She's wasn't selfish, she was selfless. If she were around during Claire's generation, she probably would have been sent to Pieta like Cynthia and Jean were - because their honor and love for humans is a "bad thing".
Unfortunately, the Organization didn't care for any of this, they just cared about her power - they were looking for an excuse to get rid of Teresa and have someone who was just a powerful(perhaps more so), and more "docile" and willing to obey them. In the mean-time, they respected her semi-obedience to them and her power, but once they caught her with killing the bandits, they had what they wanted.
With more time, she probably would have ended up like Cynthia - understanding that humans don't care for them, but honorable and happy all the same.
This post is a bit of a paradox when you think about it. You say she should've become a Claymore because she was perfectly fit to be one given her love for humanity and hatred toward Yoma. But then you go on saying the Black Black Club doesn't care about that. That means to be a Claymore, you don't really need to love humanity. The Club decides who's going to be a Claymore on their own regardless. This is especially true because, as you said, every Claymore is taken by the Club against their will. Clare was the only exception. So, in Priscilla's case, if being protective of humanity was valued among Claymores, why is it that the Black Black Club doesn't care about that?
Also, Priscilla loved humanity and hated Yoma. But what were her reasons for it? Sure, if it was just that, Priscilla would be ok. She would be, as you say, perfect. But she hates Yoma because of what they did to her and her alone. The Yoma took her parents, slaughtering them before her very eyes. That's what left a deep hatred toward the Yoma. It's not as if she hates them because they're a threat to people, but because of her own past. I wouldn't call that selflessness. I'd call her hatred a by-product of her trauma. Becoming a Claymore gave her the means by which she could carry out a sort of vengeance. She's not exactly trying to protect anyone. Although she did obey the Club's orders, she did it because it was convenient for her, and her awakening to kill Teresa proves that she believes the end justified the means.
Ah, I see where you're coming from Shiek. I guess I misread it.
Yes, perhaps if the Organization had allowed Priscilla more experience she wouldn't have awakened, and would have probably stabilized her emotions and mind better. Why they sent a warrior who had no real clue of her limits into a fight against someone who would easily push those limits is something I still wonder.
I don't think any of the Claymores in the Organization really have an idea about what is going on though. Those that outlive their usefulness or become too smart are sent to die in impossible missions. That there were some strong enough to survive (The Ghosts, Galatea), is probably something they figured could happen but obviously had no concern for it with creatures like the AE's and Alicia and Beth on their side. I can imagine they are scrambling now though, losing so much strength.
As speculation though, I think Priscilla would have just buried the truth under layers of denial to preserve her sanity. She'd remain a dog to the Organization because the thought of betrayal would be too much for her. She's shown to be an excellent warrior with good battle intuition, especially as an Awakened but she doesn't seem to be a good observer of her surroundings when she's not fighting. I'd really have an issue with picturing her as a critical thinker. She seems more like the type to do as she's told, as a Claymore, at least. Doesn't mean she can't change but that would be left to the realm of a fan fic where she didn't kill Teresa and never awakened.
Shiek927
2010-01-06, 15:27
This post is a bit of a paradox when you think about it. You say she should've become a Claymore because she was perfectly fit to be one given her love for humanity and hatred toward Yoma. But then you go on saying the Black Black Club doesn't care about that. That means to be a Claymore, you don't really need to love humanity. The Club decides who's going to be a Claymore on their own regardless. This is especially true because, as you said, every Claymore is taken by the Club against their will. Clare was the only exception. So, in Priscilla's case, if being protective of humanity was valued among Claymores, why is it that the Black Black Club doesn't care about that?
It's funny isn't it?
Simply put, because the Organization was not created to care for humans. Look at Cynthia; why was she taken to Pieta? She was a beautiful happy woman who loves to help people(which Claire muses is why she was sent)....if anything, if you love your job, shouldn't you be rewarded?
The Organization wasn't founded to help humanity or care for them; it's the reason they don't care for killing family and taking their children and making them into monsters. They care about their own ends and nothing else. They have constructed this elaborate lie that makes human feel they need to rely on the Organization for survival, and everyone has fallen for it.
If human beings knew the Organization was creating Yoma...their probably would be this mass revolt and Claymores couldn't do anything about it...because the rules say they cannot hurt humans.
Wouldn't that be something; I honestly expect it to happen: Miria would spread "propaganda" and slowly, the fillers would start rebelling them, and the Ghosts would grow in number.
Also, Priscilla loved humanity and hated Yoma. But what were her reasons for it? Sure, if it was just that, Priscilla would be ok. She would be, as you say, perfect. But she hates Yoma because of what they did to her and her alone. The Yoma took her parents, slaughtering them before her very eyes. That's what left a deep hatred toward the Yoma. It's not as if she hates them because they're a threat to people, but because of her own past. I wouldn't call that selflessness. I'd call her hatred a by-product of her trauma. Becoming a Claymore gave her the means by which she could carry out a sort of vengeance. She's not exactly trying to protect anyone. Although she did obey the Club's orders, she did it because it was convenient for her, and her awakening to kill Teresa proves that she believes the end justified the means.
Mmm....It seems more like a mixture really. Your words sound too much like she's actually after revenge, and I don't think it's like that. The memories of what happened were still fresh. It goes to what Solace said; what would she be like, if she had more time.
--
You're right Solace; who knows what kind of person she would grow to be, if she had 10 more years under her.
Ulquihorror
2010-01-06, 15:30
wow, now that someone mentionned priscilla's dad, what if he was really a yoma or some other species related to yuma? Whie playing bunnies with a human, he conceived priscilla and her siblings but he somehow turned wacko and ate them. He could have been a remnant of the male claymore generation and fathered pris and somehow kept himself from awakening only to awaken later on, eating his wife and kids.
Shiek927
2010-01-06, 15:36
wow, now that someone mentionned priscilla's dad, what if he was really a yoma or some other species related to yuma? Whie playing bunnies with a human, he conceived priscilla and her siblings but he somehow turned wacko and ate them. He could have been a remnant of the male claymore generation and fathered pris and somehow kept himself from awakening only to awaken later on, eating his wife and kids.
Doubt it; if that were true, then odds are SHE too would already be part-yoma and as far as we know, she was born human like all the rest.
Also, she loved him, and said he was good to her. As far as we can tell, she and her family were normal and happy.
Tsuyoshi
2010-01-06, 15:40
It's funny isn't it?
Simply put, because the Organization was not created to care for humans. Look at Cynthia; why was she taken to Pieta? She was a beautiful happy woman who loves to help people(which Claire muses is why she was sent)....if anything, if you love your job, shouldn't you be rewarded?
The Organization wasn't founded to help humanity or care for them; it's the reason they don't care for killing family and taking their children and making them into monsters. They care about their own ends and nothing else. They have constructed this elaborate lie that makes human feel they need to rely on the Organization for survival, and everyone has fallen for it.
If human beings knew the Organization was creating humans...their probably would be this mass revolt and Claymores couldn't do anything about it...because the rules say they cannot hurt humans.
Wouldn't that be something; I honestly expect it to happen: Miria would spread "propaganda" and slowly, the fillers would start rebelling them, and the Ghosts would grow in number.
Hmm, yes, I agree with this, but it doesn't explain why someone like Priscilla would be considered perfect for her willingness to protect humans from the Yoma. You did say she's perfect, but at the same time that's not what the Black Black Club's after. So I wonder, how does that actually make Priscilla perfect for them?
Mmm....It seems more like a mixture really. Your words sound too much like she's actually after revenge, and I don't think it's like that. The memories of what happened were still fresh. It goes to what Solace said; what would she be like, if she had more time.
She may not be directly looking for vengeance, but her actions do make it seem as if that's more of what she's after rather than genuinely trying to protect humans. In her position, if I wanted to protect humans, I would've led my fight with Teresa away from the town to a place where they would be in less danger of being implicated. Instead, she decided to go straight for the kill, although she wanted to do it more honorably at first. Priscilla's more bent on killing Yoma instead because of her own hatred. My point is that she's not as selfless as you made her out to be.
Shiek927
2010-01-06, 15:47
Hmm, yes, I agree with this, but it doesn't explain why someone like Priscilla would be considered perfect for her willingness to protect humans from the Yoma. You did say she's perfect, but at the same time that's not what the Black Black Club's after. So I wonder, how does that actually make Priscilla perfect for them?
Because that's the game Yoko - you think their going to tell her, or anyone, that they are making Yoma? That everything all 47 of them are working and living for is a big sham?
Warriors are generally cold and do their job out of necessity, but here they have a little girl with power unlike any other, who's excited to be working for them; who's excited to be working for a group that "cares" and "saves" people. Why not humor the ignorant little thing? Let her have her way and "save people". The longer she stays that way and doesn't figure things out like Teresa, the better.
All else fails, they'll just find a stronger younger child to replace her.
She may not be directly looking for vengeance, but her actions do make it seem as if that's more of what she's after rather than genuinely trying to protect humans. In her position, if I wanted to protect humans, I would've led my fight with Teresa away from the town to a place where they would be in less danger of being implicated. Priscilla's more bent on killing Yoma instead because of her own hatred. My point is that she's not as selfless as you made her out to be.
Hmmm, I see where you're going. Killing Yoma and loving humanity aren't exactly the same thing....but they aren't exactly exclusive either.
Well, like I said, who knows how she would have grown up to be like, if she had more time. I think however, if their was somebody she would turn out being the most similar too, it would be Cynthia or Jean, maybe a mixture.
Tsuyoshi
2010-01-06, 17:27
Hmmm, I see where you're going. Killing Yoma and loving humanity aren't exactly the same thing....but they aren't exactly exclusive either.
Well, like I said, who knows how she would have grown up to be like, if she had more time. I think however, if their was somebody she would turn out being the most similar too, it would be Cynthia or Jean, maybe a mixture.
Nah, I'd have placed my money on Priscilla turning out to be more like Ophelia tbh.
Shiek927
2010-01-06, 18:48
Nah, I'd have placed my money on Priscilla turning out to be more like Ophelia tbh.
Roflmao, Ophelia? :D :heh:
Ouch :heh:
Shiek927
2010-01-06, 20:37
Priscilla is the greatest criminal (excluding the Organization) in the manga.
She is truly the only one whom could truly have a psychotic/criminal/violent mind.
Priscilla is almost an exact match of the REAL Charles Mansion (<-can't spell and too lazy to look up...nor do i want to...shivers)
Ophelia doesn't even come close to this.
:eyebrow::uhoh:, Uhh....
Aren't you exaggerating?......alot?
How on earth is she the greatest criminal Hedge? Enlighten me :rolleyes:
When it comes to the death toll, she's beat by the Abyssals and other Awakened who've been around for much much longer. If we're talking torture and sadism, she's beat by Riful, followed by Ophelia. If we're talking sheer manipulation, horrific plans, and overall genocide, she's beat by Isley and his army....scratch that, she's beat by Raciella(she's certainly got him beat on the genocide part), followed by the Organization(half the South clinches it)followed by Isley and his army...shoot, if we include the Organization, they probably lead over all of them. Torture, mutilation, genocide...they've done it all.
I'm having a hard time figuring out how she's the worst thing this island has ever come across in it's history. In the long run, she really hasn't done anything of any typically evil nature, other then eating, and she's already beaten in that territory by the Awakened who've come long before her and done that sort of thing for decades.
shogun01
2010-01-06, 20:41
Yes, perhaps if the Organization had allowed Priscilla more experience she wouldn't have awakened, and would have probably stabilized her emotions and mind better. Why they sent a warrior who had no real clue of her limits into a fight against someone who would easily push those limits is something I still wonder.
It could be a very simple answer, especially looking at the Rubel factor. Rubel is a spy and there are probably more than just him in the organization. What if Priscilla's handler was a spy as well?
In short, this could have been intentional.
Shiek927
2010-01-06, 20:43
taken from my "big" response post to solace's post:
"2. ALL Claymores that we've been shown/told have watched (Deneve, Clare), hide (Deneve), cried (Clare), run-away (Ophelia), fainted (human Raki 1st time), or other passive actions while their family is devoured before their eyes. Only human Raki went offensive on his 2nd encounter with the yoma-"Zaki" in Doga (ch.1) and he was only trying to punch the yoma (lol).
AND THEN WE GOT PRISCILLA, WHOM GOES OFFENSIVE AND SUCCESSFULLY AXES THE YOMA'S HEAD OFF, KILLING IT. PRISCILLA IS CLEARLY NOT LIKE ALL THE OTHER HUMAN GIRLS WHOM BECOME CLAYMORES.
I'd venture to guess that psychologically, Priscilla already has a violent/criminal/psychotic mind as a human child, which caused the resultant action of her AXING the yoma dead, which NO other human girl whom became a Claymore ever even came close to repeating." -HK
Priscilla is the ONLY one who arguably has a CRIMINAL MIND.
(sorry for the confusion... what i meant by criminal is: criminal mind)
By your logic, Raki also has a criminal mind :rolleyes:
First off, why "criminal"? What on earth is so criminal about killing the Yoma? I call that bravery. Is their a law or something I forgot that makes killing Yoma illegal? :heh::heh:
Ulquihorror
2010-01-06, 20:59
Let's get philosophical and define criminal
Shiek927
2010-01-06, 21:30
Hedge....I'm sorry, I'm not getting you.
What is so psychotic, or criminal(because I'm still having trouble figuring THAT part out) about killing the Yoma that killed her family?
It's not like she wasn't scarred by it, that's for sure, but more to the point, I don't see what was evil about it. If someone comes and kills your family, is it criminal to kill them?
You may get charged sure, but I doubt anything extreme will happen to you since it was in self-defense, not to mention you were the only survivor in your family.
If it's the age that's the issue...I still don't see what the big deal is. The only thing that shows, is that she had the biggest guts(no pun intended, seriously) out of all the girls you mentioned. After all, if she did nothing, she would have probably just ended up dead; since the Yoma took her father's body, it has his memories, and it wouldn't forget their was one person it missed.
Roflmao, I love your choice of words too in describing Ophelia(a "coward"). To you Hedge, they are cowards if they run and save themselves, and psychotic criminals if they fight back :rolleyes::heh::eyespin:
You are one guy that's hard to impress :heh:
I think you mean underlined, not underscored.
Hege, is there some pleasure you receive in making us ALLCAPS, bold and underlined text surrounded by many pretty stars (and is there some bias toward italics and strike-through?), or do you honestly feel it helps you make your point or something?
And, I've been refraining from asking for ages now, but since I'm asking all this other stuff: "why don't you quote normally"? I mean clicking on the "quote" button is easy - far easier than typing it out all yourself, or cutting and pasting. Why?
Priscilla's level of offensive violence as a human child is far extreme compared to all the other comparisons we have. this makes her the equivolent of a psychotic criminal-minded person in our real world.
Hege, I gave you a post filled with chapter and page numbers, just like you requested. I even listed it all out so it was easy to follow. And you decide that's not good enough, and that I was wrong for saying you were wrong because my point wasn't to your satisfaction.
I make a statement and support it with facts, and what I get for it is dismissal and insults. I will not waste my time and effort arguing with someone who can't be bothered to show some basic courtesy. If I think you are wrong, I'll tell you that you are wrong and explain why. If I think you are a liar, I'll tell you that you are a liar and explain why. I am not one to use such strong words lightly and I think even less of those who put words in my mouth.
It is not my fault you can't understand basic psychology concepts like Regression and Projection, but don't insult me and attempt to "call me out" because I don't finish every sentence with "in my opinion".
And people wonder why I tend to disassociate from frequent discussion....you can only talk to a brick wall so many times before you get tired of counting the cracks.
Shiek927
2010-01-06, 23:21
All I can say Solace............is welcome to the Claymore forum :heh:
you can only talk to a brick wall so many times before you get tired of counting the cracks.
Roflmao, I'm gonna try to remember that one :heh:
SagaraSouske
2010-01-07, 00:14
Solace, at least your learned the lesson much faster then me :) It took me quite a while to learn to give up.
Seems to spending more and more time on this thread, but I guess that's not all. Seems to have sparked a good bit of interest in claymore lately.:)
irvinethearcher
2010-01-07, 09:00
@hedge
if you would reduce the length of your post with the factor 5 or 6 and if you would invest still the same time into it, you wouldn't make yourself that vulnerable against others. You write so much stuff in such a short amount of time, it is impossible to deliver always high quality that way. And i have to confess i often don't find the time to even read them.
Try to do it more the way C.F. Gauss did: Pauca sed matura!
This is not as easy as it looks like. I often fail here too.
Think about it, no one else writes so much stuff as you do.
Yes, perhaps if the Organization had allowed Priscilla more experience she wouldn't have awakened, and would have probably stabilized her emotions and mind better. Why they sent a warrior who had no real clue of her limits into a fight against someone who would easily push those limits is something I still wonder.
I think they underestimated theresa. Priscilla probably gave them a taste of what she was capable of during her time at academy but theresa seemed to hide her true strength perhaps not only after her fight with rosemary.
MisterJB
2010-01-07, 12:43
overall genocide, she's beat by Isley and his army....scratch that, she's beat by Raciella(she's certainly got him beat on the genocide part)
Isley's army killed and/or ate everyone in the North except for some people of Pieta.
The Destroyer still has a long way to go before matching so that. As far we know, only one village was destroyed so far by it's actions.
Shiek927
2010-01-07, 13:10
Isley's army killed and/or ate everyone in the North except for some people of Pieta.
The Destroyer still has a long way to go before matching so that. As far we know, only one village was destroyed so far by it's actions.
True true; I put it above,because of the overall effect the Destroyer has had. It can launch rods ALL OVER the entire island, and through the HellCats, can commit mass genocide.
Plus, their doesn't seem to be a limit to how many she can send, whereas Isley had an army of only a few dozen.
Tsuyoshi
2010-01-07, 16:03
Hege, I gave you a post filled with chapter and page numbers, just like you requested. I even listed it all out so it was easy to follow. And you decide that's not good enough, and that I was wrong for saying you were wrong because my point wasn't to your satisfaction.
He pulled the same move on me a while back. You shouldn't be greatly surprised. Proof or not, the only truth he sees is his own. I'm sorry Hege, but that's just how I see it and, from what I gather, I'm not the only one.
Like I told you over and over and over again, read other people's posts completely before replying and use quotes. It makes it easier on all of us. And walls of text don't help either. If you think making walls of text makes you look better, you're dead wrong. People won't even bother reading the entire thing.
True true; I put it above,because of the overall effect the Destroyer has had. It can launch rods ALL OVER the entire island, and through the HellCats, can commit mass genocide.
Plus, their doesn't seem to be a limit to how many she can send, whereas Isley had an army of only a few dozen.
Well, while Raciella does have more potential for genocide, and that she will soon beat Isley from that aspect, she fights alone. As a schemer, Isley surpasses anyone and he still holds top rank for mass murder ;)
evil_kenshin
2010-01-07, 21:52
He pulled the same move on me a while back. You shouldn't be greatly surprised. Proof or not, the only truth he sees is his own. I'm sorry Hege, but that's just how I see it and, from what I gather, I'm not the only one.
Like I told you over and over and over again, read other people's posts completely before replying and use quotes. It makes it easier on all of us. And walls of text don't help either. If you think making walls of text makes you look better, you're dead wrong. People won't even bother reading the entire thing.
To put it simply, Hedge stop being so overzealous you attack anyone who dares disagree with your speculation and thus you have lost the respect of the entire forum.
I admit i groaned when a claymore forum I used outside this one suddenly had you appear, and its the same situation there people grow tired of your huge posts.
Be more simple and accept that other views have just as much likelihood as your own.
irvinethearcher
2010-01-07, 22:57
It could be a very simple answer, especially looking at the Rubel factor. Rubel is a spy and there are probably more than just him in the organization. What if Priscilla's handler was a spy as well?
In short, this could have been intentional.
By the way, WHAT the hell did rubel in that town exactly when teresa was killed?
This wasn't a coincidence for me. Rubel is a bastard but a smart one :heh:
If something important happens, rubel is there.
zato_1one
2010-01-08, 02:28
I just read scanlation. Somehow, I got the impression that Prissy has changed her habit of eating in order to please Raki. Raki doesn't want her to eat human. So, she decided to eat AB instead. :twitch:
But she ate villagers anyway and I doubt that every one of them has been infected. What's more for Priscilla to deal with the hell-cats wouldn't take much time so she would be able to save some of them for sure but no one besides Raki survived this. When she was about to eat Riful she also said "I’ll endure it this time", i.e. earlier when she was eating villagers they weren't changed much by the parasites (if they've had any).
My guess is, if there weren't any villagers around when she returned to her senses (whatever that means) Raki would be her first snack. I doubt she would be picky about her food when she was so hungry that she would even eat AB.
Too bad they didn't show Riful's death. Most of the cuts were vertical, so maybe she's alive. Or maybe she has to anticipate an attack first and split properly to avoid an attack and she's really dead.
Doesn't seem like Clare can detect Priscilla properly. She can feel her, but judging by her words, she can't pinpoint her. Maybe if Clare dies, they can transplant her flesh into Raki. :heh:
MichaelAngelo
2010-01-08, 09:08
Why did Hege delete his/her account?
irvinethearcher
2010-01-08, 09:20
I personally find it sad because even if he wrote to much text and therefore sometimes made some mistakes i never had trouble with him and he wasn't logic resistant either or ignored sources i gave. That is at least from the discussion i had with him. The only bad thing was that he simply wrote to much and especially i get problems than. Now i can't even find out against what solace's post link (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2855561&postcount=633) was directed:(
MichaelAngelo
2010-01-08, 09:27
I found Hege's texts as informative, most of them, as he truly was a Claymore fanatic. Too bad...
MichaelAngelo
2010-01-08, 09:28
Irvine, are u really a clairvoyant? I like people who are special...
irvinethearcher
2010-01-08, 09:32
No, it is only a poor wordplay and i like the song from iron maiden :heh:
I always wanted to change it but i have forgotten how:uhoh:
MichaelAngelo
2010-01-08, 09:35
No, it is only a poor wordplay and i like the song from iron maiden :heh:
I always wanted to change it but i have forgotten how:uhoh:
:frustrated::)
MisterJB
2010-01-08, 14:19
By the way, WHAT the hell did rubel in that town exactly when teresa was killed?
This wasn't a coincidence for me. Rubel is a bastard but a smart one :heh:
If something important happens, rubel is there.
Who say he was in that town? Clare could have wandered very far carrying Teresa's head.
Doesn't seem like Clare can detect Priscilla properly. She can feel her, but judging by her words, she can't pinpoint her. Maybe if Clare dies, they can transplant her flesh into Raki. :heh:
can't pinpoint her? she's looking right at her.
Tsuyoshi
2010-01-08, 15:16
Who say he was in that town? Clare could have wandered very far carrying Teresa's head.
Maybe, maybe not. You do realize a Man in Black always appears after Claymores went through the town to do their job right? Perhaps Rubel was assigned to oversee the result of the battle, and Clare probably expected him or someone else like him to turn up, remembering what Teresa said about the Black Black Club coming after she slew all the Yoma in her hometown.
irvinethearcher
2010-01-08, 15:18
Who say he was in that town? Clare could have wandered very far carrying Teresa's head.
Hm... after rereading it, it could have been indeed another town.
But somehow after we know rubel's history i think it was just that town in which teresa fought the ex. squad and Rubel was simply there to observe the outcome of that fight, because he thought it would have some importance. I still don't know why he helped clare or what he intended to gain from it.
Why did Hege delete his/her account?
Hege decided to end his stay on our forums permanently. The specifics are private and will remain that way. All I'll say on the matter is that the majority of his post and message deletions over the last day are his doing, not mine or any other moderators.
Any further discussion on the matter will be treated as off topic and removed. Best to just let things drop and move on.
Hege decided to end his stay on our forums permanently. The specifics are private and will remain that way. All I'll say on the matter is that the majority of his post and message deletions over the last day are his doing, not mine or any other moderators.
Any further discussion on the matter will be treated as off topic and removed. Best to just let things drop and move on.
It's sad, but I guess it can't be helped.:(:upset:
MisterJB
2010-01-09, 07:40
Maybe, maybe not. You do realize a Man in Black always appears after Claymores went through the town to do their job right? Perhaps Rubel was assigned to oversee the result of the battle, and Clare probably expected him or someone else like him to turn up, remembering what Teresa said about the Black Black Club coming after she slew all the Yoma in her hometown.
It's possible but the MIBs usually only appear if it was the town who called for a Claymore and only to receive the money.
It's possible tat Rubel was sent to confirm if Teresa was dead but, personally, I believe that Clare wandered far and ended up meeting Rubel.
It's possible but the MIBs usually only appear if it was the town who called for a Claymore and only to receive the money.
It's possible tat Rubel was sent to confirm if Teresa was dead but, personally, I believe that Clare wandered far and ended up meeting Rubel.
Come to think of it, Rubel must have been keeping an eye on the whole situation. Clare must have spotted him while he was trying to avoid her.:)
(...)
It's possible tat Rubel was sent to confirm if Teresa was dead but, personally, I believe that Clare wandered far and ended up meeting Rubel.
I'm with irvinethearcher and Yoko Takeo on this. If I were Clare I would assume that MiB would come to the town were Teresa was staying in just as they did after claymore got rid of youma. It would be the best shot anyway, going to a random town (and avoiding youma/bandits along the way) would be rather stupid compared to waiting a while in the town where Priscilla and Teresa fought. Besides, traveling without any food and with a rotting head would be rather difficult, don't you think?
Shiek927
2010-01-09, 11:50
Anyone find it weird that none of the Ghosts sensed Riful's supposed death?
Even with the excuse of Raciella's youki masking everything, Riful is nonetheless an Abyssal and somebody should have sensed something. Being unable to sense Priscilla(except Claire) makes sense since she's always suppressed, but even in her weakened state, you would think they would be able to sense something to give off some once-and-for-all indication that she died. Instead, their's just focus on Priscilla, and everything thinks Riful could still be still alive.
Even as far away as Rabona, Miria and Tabitha were able to sense Isley's passing, and while their wasn't a power like Raciella down there, again, it boils down to Yagi not giving us that indication that she really is dead. You can argue that Claire, Helen and Deneve aren't the best sensors around, and Raciella's youki is too big, but I'm having trouble suspending my disbelief.
Some people still believe that she's still alive and, despite the unlikely odds that Priscilla would leave without devouring both of them, I can't blame them for thinking that. Her whole "death" scene couldn't be more rushed, unless they just didn't show it all(and in a way, they didn't).
Anyone find it weird that none of the Ghosts sensed Riful's supposed death?
Few explanations:
1. Riful was completely drained from yoki, she was unable to regenerate herself. Isley died when he was in his awakened form, her yoki emission was probably at level of average yoma.
2. Compared to new salvo of rods and appearance of Priscilla Riful death wasn't really important. Ghost have more important things (like survival) to do. In other words Riful death wasn't worth mentioning in that little time they have now.
3. Their best yoki sensor - Clare - went mad because of Priscilla. IMHO she sensed Riful death, but she is not able to speak about it.
Add reasons you mentioned and it's not so surprising that no one mentioned Rifuls death.
Shiek927
2010-01-09, 18:46
Few explanations:
1. Alicia was completely drained from yoki, she was unable to regenerate herself. Isley died when he was in his awakened form, her yoki emission was probably at level of average yoma.
2. Compared to new salvo of rods and appearance of Priscilla Riful death wasn't really important. Ghost have more important things (like survival) to do. In other words Riful death wasn't worth mentioning in that little time they have now.
3. Their best yoki sensor - Clare - went mad because of Priscilla. IMHO she sensed Riful death, but she is not able to speak about it.
Add reasons you mentioned and it's not so surprising that no one mentioned Rifuls death.
1)...I'm a little confused, what does Alicia have to do with anything?
:heh:, unless you were talking about Riful. That point doesn't make any sense, because she wasn't completely depleted, not like Luciella was, she just couldn't regenerate like Isley. Isley didn't have much energy either and his energy still was felt far off, because no one has a power like his.
Thing is, it's not amount, it's quality. Even if they don't have much, their youki is still the most recognizable.
Oh well, whatever :heh:
1)...I'm a little confused, what does Alicia have to do with anything?
:heh:, unless you were talking about Riful.
My mistake :upset:
OM chapter 97 page 12. Riful herself said that she has no more strength left. Most probably she was talking about yoki, so she was depleted from yoki. Even if some yoki left, her signature should be suppressed by much stronger signatures of Priscilla and Raciella. Good yoki sensors, like Clare, might be able to sense her death, Helen and Deneve shouldn't.
MisterJB
2010-01-09, 19:09
she wasn't completely depleted, not like Luciella was,
Why do you say that Luciela completely depleted her Yoki?
Because she couldn't transform into her Awakened form? If so, then Riful was in the same situation. She said it in chapter 97, page 11, just like Arturro pointed out.
Isley died when he was in his awakened form, her yoki emission was probably at level of average yoma.
In chapter 90 page 5, Galatea classified Isley's Yoki, rigth before his death, as huge.
Shiek927
2010-01-09, 20:00
Why do you say that Luciela completely depleted her Yoki?
Because she couldn't transform into her Awakened form? If so, then Riful was in the same situation. She said it in chapter 97, page 11, just like Arturro pointed out.
.......Hah! Good point, Roflmao :heh: :D :D :D XDXDXDXD
I think what threw me off is when Dauf told Riful to attack Alicia when she was distracted. If she was depleted, how could she? Maybe not having enough strength to awaken isn't the same as being "depleted" which implies you have nothing left whatsoever.
--
Right MisterJB; i think that goes along with what I was saying before; I don't think it's possible to be "depleted" in the sense the person has no youki at all. They just don't have enough strength to defend themselves or do whatever it is they want to do.
Isley and Riful both have youki's unlike any other as Abyssals; even "depleted", I can't believe nobody would recognize them, even and especially at death. Nevertheless, Isley had much more youki then either Riful or Luciella because he died while still in awakened form.
Awakened
2010-01-09, 20:52
Isley was also falling apart in his Ab form, just like Cynthia.
Ulquihorror
2010-01-09, 21:38
my theory is that riful didn't die. she was about to get eaten by puriaschiillilia but was saved when clare released her yoki and got puriaschiillilia thinking:"zomfg, need to check this out"
Shiek927
2010-01-09, 21:41
Isley was also falling apart in his Ab form, just like Cynthia.
Except Cynthia is not an awakened....:p
Ulquihorror
2010-01-09, 21:50
I hope cynthia awakens and stays gentle so Yuma can have an awakened friend
clarakiss~
2010-01-09, 21:58
if cynthia does awakened and stays with yuma, they'd have to leave ghost. miria will see cynthia as a threat. :(
Shiek927
2010-01-09, 22:27
Italian translation came out...
In particular, this one, with regards to the first page monologue, emphasizes the objective that she is trying to reach and Raki is the best way there.
But in particular, what really grabs me is the new word to add to our list: with regard to Raki, we have scent, and Gernot's translation and the French translation that complicate it(the whole "source" stuff and her reaching the source etc), but you know what the Italian scanlation says?
"in quella neve, circondata dal fetore dell' immondizia, del sangue e della carne marcia...
il profumo familiare che emanava
mi fece riacquisire i sensi
i miei ricordi non tornarono completamente,
ma capii che lui era la persona in grado di guidarmi verso il mio obiettivo...
da quel giorno iniziai a seguirlo.
e non mangiai più ne sangue ne budella."
In half the translations I get, I keep getting "family perfume"
The other half, I get "familiar scent" or some variation of it. I tried looking up various translations of the word, and, alongside words like "normal, usual, habitual," etc etc, Family is a word that keeps popping up(alongside relatives, relations, and other words basically for family). Obviously the second word is basically the scent(though Perfume? I had no idea Raki smelled THAT good. Some may wonder though, since he's a male, he should smell like cologne :heh:).
Users who are more versed in Italian may agree or disagree with this, but It does give you food for thought huh? We've all known that Raki has the same smell as his southern home, but him having the same overall scent or feeling as her family makes it much more personal. Considering the difference between Raki showing up and her, it's impossible they could have ever met as children or something(unless he has met her relatives, or he's actually related to Priscilla and he doesn't know it), and as far as we know, they live(d) in two different locations: Raki in the arid Doga-Plains, and Priscilla in Musha(whether that's a specific locale or the entire southern region, we don't know).
Lynn Alstreim
2010-01-09, 23:49
I think that the only chance for Cynthia and Yma to be alive is to get help from Miria and Galatea. After all the things that has happened. Probably they will come to the East.
Esley and Rifl are all dead, after all.
What if Miria happened to save Cynthia?
What if Miria happened to save Cynthia?
Don't know about this, but I think they should be able to take care of themselves, without Miria and Galatea's help.:)
Awakened
2010-01-10, 11:55
Uma and Cynthia needs a power-up. Half awakening coming up.
If Clare is able to stand up to Priscilla, the manga might end soon. Clare would be overpowered.
Italian translation came out...
In particular, this one, with regards to the first page monologue, emphasizes the objective that she is trying to reach and Raki is the best way there.
But in particular, what really grabs me is the new word to add to our list: with regard to Raki, we have scent, and Gernot's translation and the French translation that complicate it(the whole "source" stuff and her reaching the source etc), but you know what the Italian scanlation says?
"in quella neve, circondata dal fetore dell' immondizia, del sangue e della carne marcia...
il profumo familiare che emanava
mi fece riacquisire i sensi
i miei ricordi non tornarono completamente,
ma capii che lui era la persona in grado di guidarmi verso il mio obiettivo...
da quel giorno iniziai a seguirlo.
e non mangiai più ne sangue ne budella."
In half the translations I get, I keep getting "family perfume"
The other half, I get "familiar scent" or some variation of it. I tried looking up various translations of the word, and, alongside words like "normal, usual, habitual," etc etc, Family is a word that keeps popping up(alongside relatives, relations, and other words basically for family). Obviously the second word is basically the scent(though Perfume? I had no idea Raki smelled THAT good. Some may wonder though, since he's a male, he should smell like cologne :heh:).
Users who are more versed in Italian may agree or disagree with this, but It does give you food for thought huh? We've all known that Raki has the same smell as his southern home, but him having the same overall scent or feeling as her family makes it much more personal. Considering the difference between Raki showing up and her, it's impossible they could have ever met as children or something(unless he has met her relatives, or he's actually related to Priscilla and he doesn't know it), and as far as we know, they live(d) in two different locations: Raki in the arid Doga-Plains, and Priscilla in Musha(whether that's a specific locale or the entire southern region, we don't know).
"Profumo familiare" can be translated as "familiar scent" or "familiar perfume", which have nothing to do with "family perfume". "Profumo" 's main meaning is "perfume" but it also means scent, fragrance etc. ( though each of these words has a more specific translation: profumo = perfume; scent = odore, profumo; fragranza = fragrance ). Another Italian translation uses "profumo" too. But if you keep reading, you'll find that soon after it has "odore" ( = scent ). What I think is interesting is that the sentence in question was also translated as "grazie al profumo sulla sua pelle ( thanks to the scent/perfume on his skin ) la mia coscienza si risvegliò" ( my conscience awakened/woke/awoke again ). I know it may be confusing and make you wonder about what happened when Priscilla awakened: did only her body awaken and not her mind ( doubtful ), or both her mind and body did and Priscilla's monologue in chapter 99 came from one of her other personalities that awoke again after she smelt the scent on Raki? :eyespin: So, why didn't they choose "awoke/awoke again" as in this personality of hers was sleeping before she smelt the scent on Raki's skin? Note that according to this translation the scent is not Raki's, it's only on his skin. :eyespin: If they intended "the perfume of his skin", they would have written "il profumo della sua pelle". Believe me, last week I even found another translation that had "her scent on his skin". Please remember that this isn't the original in Japanese so don't give importance to what I just told you. Apparently, this part can be interpreted in different ways, it's vaguer than usual or Yagi wanted it to be this vague on purpose.
I think Cynthia will die :( (or even something worse)
Those wounds are serious business!
But I guess Yuma may be able to pull of a miracle :rolleyes:
irvinethearcher
2010-01-10, 18:13
Perhaps they will be rescued by galatea with yoki synchronization. Otherwise i fear perhaps even both of them will get real problems.
Miria probably will arive late, as always.
MisterJB
2010-01-10, 18:24
I think Cynthia will die :( (or even something worse)
What is worse than dying?
What is worse than dying?
Well, I think that would be Awakening and then being killed by youre friends.
Something like that... :D
Awakened
2010-01-10, 18:58
Except Cynthia is not an awakened....:p
Cynthia did not awaken, but she shows what happen when you are out of usable yoki. Your body falls apart.
Isley body was falling apart. I think he forced himself to stay in Ab form.
Shiek927
2010-01-10, 19:28
or Yagi wanted it to be this vague on purpose.
It's probably this over everything else. For a while now, he's been especially vague, more then usual, and I'm getting used to the idea he's doing it on purpose now.
Sometimes it's okay, because it gives us our own ideas on subjects, but at the end of the day, I want one true interpretation so I know if we're right or wrong. Which I why I can't stand it when he's so vague all the time.
Italian translation came out...
In particular, this one, with regards to the first page monologue, emphasizes the objective that she is trying to reach and Raki is the best way there.
But in particular, what really grabs me is the new word to add to our list: with regard to Raki, we have scent, and Gernot's translation and the French translation that complicate it(the whole "source" stuff and her reaching the source etc), but you know what the Italian scanlation says?
"in quella neve, circondata dal fetore dell' immondizia, del sangue e della carne marcia...
il profumo familiare che emanava
mi fece riacquisire i sensi
i miei ricordi non tornarono completamente,
ma capii che lui era la persona in grado di guidarmi verso il mio obiettivo...
da quel giorno iniziai a seguirlo.
e non mangiai più ne sangue ne budella."
In half the translations I get, I keep getting "family perfume"
The other half, I get "familiar scent" or some variation of it. I tried looking up various translations of the word, and, alongside words like "normal, usual, habitual," etc etc, Family is a word that keeps popping up(alongside relatives, relations, and other words basically for family). Obviously the second word is basically the scent(though Perfume? I had no idea Raki smelled THAT good. Some may wonder though, since he's a male, he should smell like cologne :heh:).
Users who are more versed in Italian may agree or disagree with this, but It does give you food for thought huh? We've all known that Raki has the same smell as his southern home, but him having the same overall scent or feeling as her family makes it much more personal. Considering the difference between Raki showing up and her, it's impossible they could have ever met as children or something(unless he has met her relatives, or he's actually related to Priscilla and he doesn't know it), and as far as we know, they live(d) in two different locations: Raki in the arid Doga-Plains, and Priscilla in Musha(whether that's a specific locale or the entire southern region, we don't know).
I'll save you some speculation. It's natsukashii nioi.
natsukashii = dear; desired; missed
It's used mainly (like here) for recalling fond rememberences (e.g. a reunion with friends you haven't seen in years, and remembering the good times you had back then with them. The memory is natsukashii). Ergo, sometimes the word is translated as "familiar". It has nothing to do with "family" though.
nioi = odour; scent; smell; stench; fragrance; aroma; perfume
In this case, I think the best translation is "smell" or "scent". To translate it as perfume in this case I believe to be just wrong.
Shiek927
2010-01-11, 13:11
I'll save you some speculation. It's natsukashii nioi.
natsukashii = dear; desired; missed
It's used mainly (like here) for recalling fond rememberences (e.g. a reunion with friends you haven't seen in years, and remembering the good times you had back then with them. The memory is natsukashii). Ergo, sometimes the word is translated as "familiar". It has nothing to do with "family" though.
nioi = odour; scent; smell; stench; fragrance; aroma; perfume
In this case, I think the best translation is "smell" or "scent". To translate it as perfume in this case I believe to be just wrong.
....Wait, you're translating japanese, not the italian.
No matter, here, there, it's all the same.
I'll save you some speculation. It's natsukashii nioi.
natsukashii = dear; desired; missed
It's used mainly (like here) for recalling fond rememberences (e.g. a reunion with friends you haven't seen in years, and remembering the good times you had back then with them. The memory is natsukashii). Ergo, sometimes the word is translated as "familiar". It has nothing to do with "family" though.
So it's more like a nostalgic or sentimental feeling?
So it's more like a nostalgic or sentimental feeling?
yes, that's right.
So it's more like a nostalgic or sentimental feeling?
yes, that's right.
How nostalgic indeed.:) I really like that word. Reminds me of the first Valkyrie Profile game. Reminds me of Lenneth Valkyrie.:)
http://forums.animesuki.com/picture.php?albumid=450&pictureid=30055
Tsuyoshi
2010-01-12, 08:41
I'll save you some speculation. It's natsukashii nioi.
natsukashii = dear; desired; missed
It's used mainly (like here) for recalling fond rememberences (e.g. a reunion with friends you haven't seen in years, and remembering the good times you had back then with them. The memory is natsukashii). Ergo, sometimes the word is translated as "familiar". It has nothing to do with "family" though.
nioi = odour; scent; smell; stench; fragrance; aroma; perfume
In this case, I think the best translation is "smell" or "scent". To translate it as perfume in this case I believe to be just wrong.
She was translating in italian and profumo literally translates to perfume in our language, hence she said perfume. However, for example, you can say this to someone:
Hai un buon profumo
In this case, it doesn't neccessarily mean "perfume" but "smell" (You have a nice smell"
Profumo can translate to other words as well, such as "odore" but english also has a word for that: odour. And as Camilla said, the translation says odore later, so there is a difference. If anything, the italian translators can be blamed for the confusion, but "profumo" gives a much stronger impression than "odore" in this instance, and like I said, profumo doesn't always translate to perfume.
No matter tho, the end result is the same in the end as long as you can understand what's written there.
In the manga she said "that familiar scent"
So I don't know why are we having this discussion?
Shiek927
2010-01-12, 13:07
In the manga she said "that familiar scent"
So I don't know why are we having this discussion?
Because it's fun that's why :heh:
All the scanlations and translations are different from eachother; it's fun to see how everyone else translated the text.
Tsuyoshi
2010-01-12, 15:17
Because it's fun that's why :heh:
All the scanlations and translations are different from eachother; it's fun to see how everyone else translated the text.
As for me, I wanted to clear up something about the Italian translation more than anything, as it may sound "wrong" to people who don't know the language :heh:
the story is a bit hard to continue at this stage, if it shows Priscila vs Clare, Deneve and Helen, the fight will end in less than 10 seconds...
3 Abyss-level ppl die within 2 chapters also seems a bit too rush
The current phase of the chapters are indeed a little too fast for me, it would be nice if Yagi would decide to slow down for a change.:)
Tsuyoshi
2010-01-13, 08:48
On the other hand, those Abyss characters didn't hold as much importance towards the plot continuity as Clare and the other ghosts do now. I have the feeling that Priscilla will at least hold a little back on Clare to find out about her, and why Raki's scent led her to Clare.
Shiek927
2010-01-13, 13:13
The current phase of the chapters are indeed a little too fast for me, it would be nice if Yagi would decide to slow down for a change.:)
Tell me about it, he's been on overdrive for half a dozen chapters now. Things are happening too fast, which is what's giving off this rushed feeling everyone has.
Tell me about it, he's been on overdrive for half a dozen chapters now. Things are happening too fast, which is what's giving off this rushed feeling everyone has.
The current arc should be called 'the big cleanup' or something It looks like Yagi is in a hurry to leave the Org as the last enemy so he can move on.
Tell me about it, he's been on overdrive for half a dozen chapters now. Things are happening too fast, which is what's giving off this rushed feeling everyone has.
I think he's just cleaning house, as Weird D suggests. There's too many characters in the story right now, and I think it's what has been slowing the story down so much until recently. We keep jumping back and forth between scenes and characters and while it's nice to get a break sometimes, it's taken (with the monthly schedule) almost a year from Isley's death and Clare's meeting with Raphaela to where we're at now. It's been two years since Clarice and Miata tried to take Galatea's head.
I certainly don't want things to go so fast they're meaningless but streamlining the story to only focus on one or two progression points would be better overall than jumping around and taking another year to get to any actual advancement.
It's been two years since Clarice and Miata tried to take Galatea's head.
How I have missed them too.:(:upset:
It's been two years since Clarice and Miata tried to take Galatea's head.
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/uwaheq2.png Has it been THAT LONG?!?! Man, you fans who have been with Claymore longer than me must be going nuts...
We so need too see them again... next month though. I want chapter 100 to be mostly Clare and Priscilla... :heh: Sorry to all Miria, Galatea, Matia, Clarice, and/or Tabitha fans. I'm fine with them showing up at the end of the chapter though... but I want the first part to be Clare and Priscilla focused.
They was a period mid-end of 2007 I think it was when the manga stopped for a number of months when Monthly Shōnen Jump ceased publication, we had a number of filler chapters but the main story was put on hold for 6 months that time was a real killer.
They was a period mid-end of 2007 I think it was when the manga stopped for a number of months when Monthly Shōnen Jump ceased publication, we had a number of filler chapters but the main story was put on hold for 6 months that time was a real killer.
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/uwaheq2.png Six months... Man, I can't even imagine one month without Claymore. I've only been reading it since last March... I've yet to have a month without it. Man, you Claymore Vets have been through some rough patches. I'm just glad you've stuck through it, so that way it was still an ongoing series, rather than a canceled one, when I first picked it up. :D
I go crazy mid-way though the month just waiting for the next chapter... though this month is twice as bad since I'm also waiting for Mass Effect 2 (A video game, for those who don't know). I kinda mad it comes out at the end of the month since it has the potential to interfere with Claymore. (I can't believe I mad over something just having the potential to interfere with Claymore...) I mean I can't play the game and stay on the net just waiting for the next chapter, especially since I'll be playing it on my Xbox 360 and not my PC (It's too old :().
I know that I would certainly go crazy if I were to wait for six months to see a claymore chapter.:)
I know that I would certainly go crazy if I were to wait for six months to see a claymore chapter.:)
Never read Berserk, or you'll end in Arkham Asylum :D
sonotme_9FedriqSama
2010-01-14, 09:06
I always wonder, will berserk ever end...I mean it started years before I was born...I hope he (mangaka) ends the story before he's too old or before I get too old...
shogun01
2010-01-14, 10:51
They was a period mid-end of 2007 I think it was when the manga stopped for a number of months when Monthly Shōnen Jump ceased publication, we had a number of filler chapters but the main story was put on hold for 6 months that time was a real killer.
It was 4 months, not 6.
Never read Berserk, or you'll end in Arkham Asylum :D
Really, must give it a try then.:)
Shiek927
2010-01-14, 13:22
............You know, I've been thinking; what if the big surprise next month is the arrival of the DoDs?
Tsuyoshi
2010-01-14, 13:23
............You know, I've been thinking; what if the big surprise next month is the arrival of the DoDs?
I would kill to see that. Not that I need to :heh:
It was 4 months, not 6.
They was 4 months with filler and 1-2 months with no chapters.
Never read Berserk, or you'll end in Arkham Asylum :D
What if I read Arkham Asylum first and then started reading Berserk? :p:heh::p
Actually MisterJB convinced me to try Berserk... I've been working on it slowly though (on volume 10 now and have seen the anime all the way through). It's been rather disappointing... no character development minus 3 characters (been told it well eventually be 5 characters... wopty do... 5 after more than 10 volumes) and only when the author wanted progress the story. If the story stagnated in a part... so did the characters development (when in Claymore, a static part of story (action wise) mean plot revelations about the characters). Nice action and I can see the parallels to Claymore that people talk about, but the all in all they're so different the comparisons are almost moot. If you want a more fully developed supporting cast Claymore is way better...
They was 4 months with filler and 1-2 months with no chapters.
I take it that was the purpose of the 4 Extra Chapters... learn something new every day. I had been thinking Yagi just wanted to give us back story before continuing the plot. Not that he couldn't proceed with the plot. It kinda makes me question if they were ever meant to be written or attached to a later part of the story or just random ideas he had put aside and picked up due to the shake-up of the magazine Claymore was published in... Interesting food for thought.
Just wondering when were the data books released? There was 3 of them... right?
............You know, I've been thinking; what if the big surprise next month is the arrival of the DoDs?
I fail to see how that would be the listed "surprise"...
I mean, why would Yagi make the Clare Priscilla reunion more complicated when Helen and Deneve are already there and the Destroyers newest barrage of HellCats are spawning there too. Plus the rest of the ghosts could arrive... Cynthia/Yuma need to be featured soonish... Plus Raki's fate.
I too believe the Dragons are coming real soon(ish)... but not this chapter.
I see the surprise as more of:
an announcement of some sort (Examples: season 2, increased publication rate and/or longer chapters from now on, live action TV show/Movie, or something else just as crazy... Like an upcoming video game for Xbox 360/PS3/PC/Mac (NO BLOODY WII, DS, or PSP! :frustrated:))
an extra long chapter
a free bonus Extra Chapter that comes out that month too
or a Hasbro action figure line that transforms into Awakened Beings :p
Shiek927
2010-01-14, 23:35
Giving it a second thought, I actually now HOPE they won't be introduced this chapter, because it would only be able to be summed up as sudden, rushed, pulled out of Yagi's arse.
Why now? now of all times? Don't we have something bigger to think about? On top of everything else going right now?
The ideal moment to introduce them is, not only with some hinting beforehand, but later on when things have settled down and their is some conclusion to some of the things going on(Claire vs Priscilla for one). Let their be a calm before the storm; as far as I can tell, we are still in the middle of one already.
Giving it a second thought, I actually now HOPE they won't be introduced this chapter, because it would only be able to be summed up as sudden, rushed, pulled out of Yagi's arse.
Why now? now of all times? Don't we have something bigger to think about? On top of everything else going right now?
The ideal moment to introduce them is, not only with some hinting beforehand, but later on when things have settled down and their is some conclusion to some of the things going on(Claire vs Priscilla for one). Let their be a calm before the storm; as far as I can tell, we are still in the middle of one already.
http://i39.tinypic.com/29gn6yq.gif Exactly! http://i39.tinypic.com/29gn6yq.gif
............You know, I've been thinking; what if the big surprise next month is the arrival of the DoDs?
I'm just looking forward to the color page(s) that will start the next chapter. I hope it's more than one, and the page will be worth it. Hope it's a spread or something.
Has there ever been an official color page before, or is this going to be a first?
Has there ever been an official color page before, or is this going to be a first?
:uhoh: I was going to ask you just that... :heh::eyespin::heh:
Oh, and I agree we need at least one spread and a few other pages in color. :D
:uhoh: I was going to ask you just that... :heh::eyespin::heh:
Oh, and I agree we need at least one spread and a few other pages in color. :D
That's what we've been promised by JumpSQ (2nd last page). If my reading was correct: "To commemorate the 100th chapter serialization - opening page of the book is in color"
Or am I misreading the "巻頭カラー"?
That's what we've been promised by JumpSQ (2nd last page). If my reading was correct: "To commemorate the 100th chapter serialization - opening page of the book is in color"
Or am I misreading the "巻頭カラー"?
No... your correct from my understanding. I was more agreeing with your assessment of how many colored pages we should get. Sorry for any misunderstanding, I reading Angel Densetsu (on chapter 38 right now... man, I didn't think Yagi could be that funny) on another tab and as a result I'm kinda distracted and didn't take too much time to double check my post before posting it. :heh:
Shiek927
2010-01-15, 02:23
I'm just looking forward to the color page(s) that will start the next chapter. I hope it's more than one, and the page will be worth it. Hope it's a spread or something.
Has there ever been an official color page before, or is this going to be a first?
.........................
........................
.........................
................hang on hang on hang on hang on
Is that the surprise? You mean it was revealed this whole time :uhoh::twitch:
0_0
If it's true, I think I feel like Harry when he found it Lloyd had extra gloves this whole time
and Lloyd just looks at like this ":rolleyes:"
(Dumb and Dumber :heh:)
.........................
........................
.........................
................hang on hang on hang on hang on
Is that the surprise? You mean it was revealed this whole time :uhoh::twitch:
0_0
If it's true, I think I feel like Harry when he found it Lloyd had extra gloves this whole time
and Lloyd just looks at like this ":rolleyes:"
(Dumb and Dumber :heh:)
No, we get both the colored page(s) and a “Claymore” Special Present.
JUMP SQ ３月号 特報！！
Jump Square March Edition News Flash!!
連載１００回記念巻頭カラー！！
Opening pages in color to commemorate the 100th chapter!!
八木教広「CLAYMORE」スペシャルプレゼント企画もアリ！！
Norihiro Yagi “Claymore” Special Present is also planned!!
Source: gernot
So you and me were debating the “Claymore” Special Present... and me and Cyclone were debating the colored page(s). They are independent of each other... aka we get both.
MisterJB
2010-01-15, 08:18
I'm just looking forward to the color page(s) that will start the next chapter. I hope it's more than one, and the page will be worth it. Hope it's a spread or something.
Has there ever been an official color page before, or is this going to be a first?
There was that one in chapter seventy-something, featuring the seven Ghosts. Rigth after they kill Agatha, I believe.
shogun01
2010-01-15, 11:56
Has there ever been an official color page before, or is this going to be a first?
Yes! The first few pages of the first chapter are in color.
Viz actually has it available on their US Shonen Jump site (http://shonenjump.viz.com/onlinemanga/sjom.php?chap=cm-hi-preview). I'm not sure if it's open to those outside of US/Canada though.
There was that one in chapter seventy-something, featuring the seven Ghosts. Right after they kill Agatha, I believe.
**Checks**
Ah yes! Chapter 79! I forgot about that one.
Yes! The first few pages of the first chapter are in color.
Viz actually has it available on their US Shonen Jump site (http://shonenjump.viz.com/onlinemanga/sjom.php?chap=cm-hi-preview). I'm not sure if it's open to those outside of US/Canada though.
I didn't realize that one was official...
**Checks**
Ah yes! Chapter 79! I forgot about that one.
This one? (if it is, then the first page of every Extra Chapter was "officially" colored too...)
http://i680.photobucket.com/albums/vv162/LordRyus/CLAYMORE_079000.jpg
shogun01
2010-01-15, 23:02
Yes! The first few pages of the first chapter are in color.
Viz actually has it available on their US Shonen Jump site (http://shonenjump.viz.com/onlinemanga/sjom.php?chap=cm-hi-preview). I'm not sure if it's open to those outside of US/Canada though.
I didn't realize that one was official...
I can confirm it, since they put that chapter in the magazine as a preview chapter for the graphic novel release.
FWIW, it was that preview that got me into Claymore.
I can confirm it, since they put that chapter in the magazine as a preview chapter for the graphic novel release.
FWIW, it was that preview that got me into Claymore.
Uh... the pic must be special to you then. ;):D I love colored panel pics myself... now that I know this one is "official" it might become one of my favorite too... (though some of the recent ones have been SO good!)
Shiek927
2010-01-17, 18:21
<_<
>_>
A bit quiet around here lately
evil_kenshin
2010-01-17, 18:48
<_<
>_>
A bit quiet around here lately
there's not really to much to talk about at the moment lol
<_<
>_>
A bit quiet around here lately
Yes, I was quite surprised that there was nothing for almost 12 to 24 hrs.:):twitch::eyebrow::)
Ulquihorror
2010-01-18, 12:56
we need hedgemonkhan to help revitalise the forums
I've been trying to figure something out... when the first poll turned into an awakened being there seemed to be a few dozen other polls near by. Yet, only one of them awakened quickly and gave Clare/Deneve/Helen some problems right away... when all the rest attacked later. So was it just that this one poll awakened quicker than the others, was it just closer, was Helen just to close and it felt compelled to attack right away, or did the others hang back and wait for greater numbers to assemble before they attacked the group knowing the other one had them distracted. If the later it implies intelligence, a hive-mind, or The Destroyer is directly controlling them.
I'm mainly asking since the speed upon which they awaken will effect how quickly they attack Clare/Deneve/Helen and Priscilla. Which has the potential to interfere with the Clare Priscilla reunion. (and I'm hoping this will get the tread moving again)
Shiek927
2010-01-18, 16:04
we need hedgemonkhan to help revitalise the forums
Roflmao :heh::heh::heh:
I'm still trying to figure out how much independence the HellCats have - whether or not they are remote-controlling the rods, and whether or not Raciella is remote-controlling them.
Roflmao :heh::heh::heh:
I'm still trying to figure out how much independence the HellCats have - whether or not they are remote-controlling the rods, and whether or not Raciella is remote-controlling them.
Well... they can function with no head. So, something else is clearly controlling them, be it The Destroyer or their yoki itself. Or maybe there entire body is a brain with minimal life support, hence the need to keep chopping them in order to kill them. :eyespin::heh::eyespin:
I wish Yagi would give us an answer on this soon.
Awakened
2010-01-19, 05:42
The rods could be the brains
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