[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[Will Wright]

Just because all things he saw really happened, IT DOESN'T MEAN ALL THINGS HE SAW WERE SHOWN TO THE READER!

THEREFORE BATTLER IS EVA'S ACCOMPLICE.

...You know I really wouldn't be surprised at something like that.

EDIT:

Battler is Beatrice. Beatrice isn't the killer. Beatrice is the accomplice. Twisted red! What? It makes as much sense as Shkanon!

[TehChron]

Just because all things he saw really happened, IT DOESN'T MEAN ALL THINGS HE SAW WERE SHOWN TO THE READER!

THEREFORE BATTLER IS EVA'S ACCOMPLICE.

...You know I really wouldn't be surprised at something like that.

EDIT:

Battler is Beatrice. Beatrice isn't the killer. Beatrice is the accomplice. Twisted red! What? It makes as much sense as Shkanon!

No it doesn't.

Shkanon allows us all to maintain our shipping. And Battlertrice just makes Battler into the ultimate narcissist, who, so unsatisfied with the women of the world, decides to become the woman of his dreams.

God that is disturbing.

[Renall]

And also kind of awesome. Mostly I just like the idea for Battler suddenly turning into Beatrice in personality terms. Like some sort of Witch Club or something.

[UsagiTenpura]

If anything Battlertrice makes the meta world easy to explain.

Edit: Then again who's to say Battler isn't just another furniture.
Or the whole Ushiromiya family and the island itself for that matter...

[AuraTwilight]

Battler never returned to Rokkenjima. Crushed over this, Shkannontrice created a Battler personality and became Battler. Battler, Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice are all the same person.

And that's why Battler doesn't return in Lion's world.

[TehChron]

Battler never returned to Rokkenjima. Crushed over this, Shkannontrice created a Battler personality and became Battler. Battler, Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice are all the same person.

And that's why Battler doesn't return in Lion's world.

Oh wow that would be epic.

[AuraTwilight]

As for why Battler can be seen in the same room as one of the other three...

...

Fight Club.

And yes, Jessica and George are 100% aware of all this. Battler's just that much of a stud.

[Renall]

Also, the -trice created Battler is an idealized version of the perfect man just like Beatrice is the idealization of Battler's perfect woman. Everyone remarks at how tall and strong Battler has become, but that's because the ultimate counter-narcissist has invented his present image. The real Battler is short and scrawny.

Well... okay, that's not very likely.

[AuraTwilight]

Battler and Beatrice created each other to be each other's simultaneous ultimate fantasy, and they exist in the mind of someone who is neither Battler nor Beatrice.

Shkanon has a voyeur fetish.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Battler's fears of boats are a testament of a horrible accident that cost him his life. The person is just acting out Battler's fear as foreshadow of the inevitable conclusion

[LyricalAura]

He must have fallen off a pleasure boat in a typhoon. Wearing his bathing suit.

[AuraTwilight]

Well, I've already speculated that Beatrice and Erika could be the same person.

So Battler is Erika.

Meaning Battler raped himself. After growing bitter that his boyfriend cheated on him.

[LyricalAura]

Didn't he say somewhere in the first four games that his first crush was a boy?

[Cao Ni Ma]

Didn't he say somewhere in the first four games that his first crush was a boy?

It was himself, he is the biggest narcissist.

[AuraTwilight]

He cheated on himself with himself so out of bitterness he raped himself and then created himself as an ideal perfect woman with himself.

God, Battlertrice is awesome.

[TehChron]

He cheated on himself with himself so out of bitterness he raped himself and then created himself as an ideal perfect woman with himself.

God, Battlertrice is awesome.

Indeed it is.

[AuraTwilight]

We need Shroedinger to draw a picture of psycho Battler in Beatrice's dress, playing with a bunch of Rokkenjima puppets. "yes....I am EVERYONE! And now we shall Rondo the Mystery Waltz~!" :D And it turns out that all of Umineko has been him playing with puppets.

[Redriel]

He is the Narcissist Sorcerer

[TehChron]

We need Shroedinger to draw a picture of psycho Battler in Beatrice's dress, playing with a bunch of Rokkenjima puppets. "yes....I am EVERYONE! And now we shall Rondo the Mystery Waltz~!" :D And it turns out that all of Umineko has been him playing with puppets.

That would be beautiful. I wonder if he browses these forums?

[delita-umw-]

What hast this thread wrought?! The most awesome theory of them all?

[TehChron]

Yes.

Umineko theories are like Pokemon.

And Battlertrice is the damn Mewtwo of them.

[Judoh]

And Battlertrice is the damn Mewtwo of them.

I don't get it. Are you saying Battlertrice is a clone or something?

[Thunder Book]

Battlertrice is a clone of itself while being the original AT THE SAME TIME.

[delita-umw-]

That and mewtwo is hands down the best of the pokemon. Much like Battlertrice is the best of all theories.

[AuraTwilight]

Battler having a clone running around explains why he can be in the same room as Shannon or Kanon, since Battler = Beatrice = Shkanon.

Ryukishi works are allowed to have ONE paranormal thing. The single clone can be the Hanyuu of Umineko.

...or he has a clone via an IDENTICAL TWIN. The Other Battler isn't the "Battler" Asumu gave birth to...Kyrie had twins, and while Rudolf intended to give a twin to each of his lovers, Kyrie got screwed over because the other one became the MF19YA/Yasu/Lion.

Battler is still an MPD Narcissist due to Twin Telepathy.

[Thunder Book]

I thought the random paranormal thing of Umineko was Lambda's fashion sense.

[Judoh]

Battler having a clone running around explains why he can be in the same room as Shannon or Kanon, since Battler = Beatrice = Shkanon.

Ryukishi works are allowed to have ONE paranormal thing. The single clone can be the Hanyuu of Umineko.

...or he has a clone via an IDENTICAL TWIN. The Other Battler isn't the "Battler" Asumu gave birth to...Kyrie had twins, and while Rudolf intended to give a twin to each of his lovers, Kyrie got screwed over because the other one became the MF19YA/Yasu/Lion.

Battler is still an MPD Narcissist due to Twin Telepathy.

Clones are not paranormal fantasies they're science fiction. But then again we do have a hint in episode 3.

[AuraTwilight]

I didn't use the word fantasy, but clones ARE paranormal in that they are "beyond normal." Paranormal and Supernatural are not synonyms.

[TehChron]

That and mewtwo is hands down the best of the pokemon. Much like Battlertrice is the best of all theories.

Pretty much all of the above.

Mewtwo is all things to all people.

Much like Beatrice.

[goldenlove27]

I will take this opportunity to say that I will use my "Desire Ball" and capture this legendary Battlertrice once I have solve the Epitaph and beaten the Purgatorio League.

After that I will travel to Rokkenjima, (which is obviously behind the Cat Box region of the nation) to partake in the suicide mission to find the cove in which the Godly beast awaits...

(to be continued...)

[Leafsnail]

Ryukishi works are allowed to have ONE paranormal thing. The single clone can be the Hanyuu of Umineko.
Yeah! While watching all those fantasy battles, neon light display arguments and random scantily clad demons I was always wondering "Where is that paranormal element these games usually have?"

[UsagiTenpura]

Battler having a clone running around explains why he can be in the same room as Shannon or Kanon, since Battler = Beatrice = Shkanon.

Ryukishi works are allowed to have ONE paranormal thing. The single clone can be the Hanyuu of Umineko.

...or he has a clone via an IDENTICAL TWIN. The Other Battler isn't the "Battler" Asumu gave birth to...Kyrie had twins, and while Rudolf intended to give a twin to each of his lovers, Kyrie got screwed over because the other one became the MF19YA/Yasu/Lion.

Battler is still an MPD Narcissist due to Twin Telepathy.

Uh there's more then one paranormal thing in Higurashi, especially with the manga extra arcs...
Time reset + immortal ghost person + memories (of various characters) crossing uh... well I'll just say kakera I guess... + brain controling parasite (tho I guess Takano's claim was never actually proven) + ghost possessing their twin sister....
If we're allowed for that much in Umineko then everything's so easy to explain.


Wouldn't say they're twins but they are quite alike, Lion and Battler that is. Pretty certain they could be fake twins.
Think we're not even supposed to mention either Yasu nor Lion on ep 6 thread btw

[AuraTwilight]

Yeah! While watching all those fantasy battles, neon light display arguments and random scantily clad demons I was always wondering "Where is that paranormal element these games usually have?"

Since none of that is ACTUALLY happening, I'm not sure it would count.

Uh there's more then one paranormal thing in Higurashi, especially with the manga extra arcs...
Time reset + immortal ghost person + memories (of various characters) crossing uh... well I'll just say kakera I guess... + brain controling parasite (tho I guess Takano's claim was never actually proven) + ghost possessing their twin sister....
If we're allowed for that much in Umineko then everything's so easy to explain.

The extra manga arcs are non-canonical, pretty stupid, and invoke minor plot holes. I wouldn't count them. The time reset is the doing of Hanyuu, so I'd say they count as one thing. Parasites that can influence the human mind exist in real life; the case of Higurashi is just exaggerated.

[Leafsnail]

Since none of that is ACTUALLY happening, I'm not sure it would count.
So... you'd just randomly hallucinate all that normally?

[AuraTwilight]

I'm saying it literally never happened. It's fiction. Shit that Beatrice is making up, kind of like how all of Umineko is shit Ryukishi is making up. Incase you haven't noticed, the basic premise of the story is that this magic stuff isn't happening and Battler has to prove it.

[serverwolf]

sorry to cut in the middell but whatever big theory you have there i dont know what to think about that.

but i think i figured what is beatrice- or more like, what so spaciel about the game.
im not sure im right or wrong, but its kinda logical (to me at least)
also i have no idea if it was already said in here or not.

so here what i think: the killers of evry episode is not beatrice! the true master maind -beatrice- use blackmail "x" on some people and make them do the killing (or help in other ways).
its kinda like what happend to natsuhi in EP 5.
if i think more about it, the threat can be conected like that:
natsuhi - kid from 19 years ago.
kyre - ange's death.
rosa- maria's death.
kumasawa - her family or something (EP4)
nanjo - his family or something (EP4)
maria - magic.
genij - order from kinzo.
ETC

i think its kinda explain why there are diffrent killers and riddels and more and more in each EP...

[delita-umw-]

Well, I think you're on the track that everyone else is on sorta because it is pretty much impossible for there to be one killer who goes after everyone in each game, but I'm not entirely sure you could blackmail the entire cast into doing things. Certain characters would be much harder to coerce than others, such as Kyrie. I think it's also pretty clear at this point whoever Beatrice is isn't the real culprit anyway.

[Will Wright]

The more episode 8 draws near, the more I realize I'm rather disappointed with the series.

I think that episode 5 was the high point of Umineko for me. It felt like there were a lot of possibilities, and I just had to think about it to get to an amazing answer.

Now that we are getting to episode 8, I feel rather...disappointed. The whole Beatrice/killer/motive thing as they were presented up until now just feel like a serious letdown.

I'm hoping that episode 8 will surprise me, but I feel like it really let me down.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Detective novels usually have recreation of the events which are just red herrings for the ultimate conclusion. It could be that RK07 feels satisfied with these endings and just uses EP8 to draw it to the end or it could be that EP8 actually gives a whole different truth from what we've been getting.

[Leafsnail]

Detective novels usually have recreation of the events which are just red herrings for the ultimate conclusion. It could be that RK07 feels satisfied with these endings and just uses EP8 to draw it to the end or it could be that EP8 actually gives a whole different truth from what we've been getting.
"HAHAHAH, it was Gohda all along!!"

[Will Wright]

Detective novels usually have recreation of the events which are just red herrings for the ultimate conclusion. It could be that RK07 feels satisfied with these endings and just uses EP8 to draw it to the end or it could be that EP8 actually gives a whole different truth from what we've been getting.

I know my mystery novels, thank you very much. I just don't think that Umineko is going to be like that. I hope I'm just being pessimistic.

[AuraTwilight]

Yea, someone's just using the Beatrice legend to get away with it all. Whoever "Beatrice" is on the gameboard is probably as innocent as possible, save for possibly being threatened or manipulated into doing non-murder accomplice work.

[Renall]

I can think of a few good ways for it to work out, but I'm not holding out any hope that those will be the ones that actually pan out.

[einhorn303]

Could someone please try to disprove this proof of Erika's existence, made purely by statements from the final puzzle of EP 6:

Erika exists on the island: "The game ended while I [Erika] was inside the guest room."
The Erika existing on the island is Erika herself, and not someone pretending to be her: "It has already been said in red that all people can only use their own names. Therefore, the names Erika, Battler, and Kanon can only be used by those people.
The Erika existing on the island is alive, and not a corpse. Corpses do not have the ability to do these things: "I [Erika] set the chain lock." "She [Erika] completely severed the heads of all those she killed."
Conclusion: "An authentic, living Erika Furudo existed on the game board of the 6th Episode."

[Judoh]

Could someone please try to disprove this proof of Erika's existence, made purely by statements from the final puzzle of EP 6:

Erika exists on the island: "The game ended while I [Erika] was inside the guest room."
The Erika existing on the island is Erika herself, and not someone pretending to be her: "It has already been said in red that all people can only use their own names. Therefore, the names Erika, Battler, and Kanon can only be used by those people.
The Erika existing on the island is alive, and not a corpse. Corpses do not have the ability to do these things: "I [Erika] set the chain lock." "She [Erika] completely severed the heads of all those she killed."
Conclusion: "An authentic, living Erika Furudo existed on the game board of the 6th Episode."

The theory says that she doesn't exist in the sense that she was never on the real Rokkenjima or 'Rokkenjima Prime' she has to exist in some way on the game board itself for the story to work. She's basically a fictional character or a title that only exists in forgeries. These reds would only apply for a hypothetical scenario that didn't even happen.

[einhorn303]

The theory says that she doesn't exist in the sense that she was never on the real Rokkenjima or 'Rokkenjima Prime' she has to exist in some way on the game board itself for the story to work. She's basically a fictional character or a title that only exists in forgeries. These reds would only apply for a hypothetical scenario that didn't even happen.

If you accept that "these reds would only apply for a hypothetical scenario that didn't even happen," please explain how that doesn't lead to the conclusion that "all reds would only apply for a hypothetical scenario that didn't even happen"?

Because if you deny a red truth because "it only applies to a hypothetical scenario that might or might not have happened," can't that method of denial be applied to ALL red truths of all games?

[Judoh]

Because if you deny a red truth because "it only applies to a hypothetical scenario that might or might not have happened," can't that method of denial be applied to ALL red truths of all games?

Yes. Is that a mind fuck for you? Yes all of the games so far probably didn't happen as real life scenarios. They are hypothetical, fictional stories, scripts, or interpretations that appeared in message bottles. The real event that happened to Rokkenjima hasn't been confirmed or shown to us yet.

As for the red truth it is meant to lead you to the truth that happened on Rokkenjima you can look at it and apply it however you want.

[LyricalAura]

Could someone please try to disprove this proof of Erika's existence, made purely by statements from the final puzzle of EP 6:

Erika exists on the island: "The game ended while I [Erika] was inside the guest room."
The Erika existing on the island is Erika herself, and not someone pretending to be her: "It has already been said in red that all people can only use their own names. Therefore, the names Erika, Battler, and Kanon can only be used by those people.
The Erika existing on the island is alive, and not a corpse. Corpses do not have the ability to do these things: "I [Erika] set the chain lock." "She [Erika] completely severed the heads of all those she killed."
Conclusion: "An authentic, living Erika Furudo existed on the game board of the 6th Episode."

And which game board would that be?

It's been established throughout the story that red truth can be applied to individual boards without being universally true across all boards. We also know from Maria's example and various other clues that human pieces can become game masters and create their own game boards, which can then have red truths stated about them in turn.

Erika is the eighteenth human on Rokkenjima.
Even if she is welcomed, there are seventeen people on the island.

Contradictory red truths can't exist on the same game board without creating a logic error. Therefore, these two statements must apply to two different game boards. One is the board created directly by Battler, and the other is a nested board created by one of his pieces. Erika and her actions exist only on the inner board, exactly as described by the coin puzzle early in the story.

[UsagiTenpura]

Erika is the eighteenth human on Rokkenjima.
Even if she is welcomed, there are seventeen people on the island.

I think that this scene occurred in the meta world changes a bit the meaning of these words. It's like Ange's red about her being Ange from the future of 1998 and Battler and Beato's answer is a bit as if they tried to deny Ange by telling her "Well we're in 1986 so you can't be there".

Maybe a better example would be something like Erika saying I am Erika the witch of truth and them replying There's no such things as witches.

[Will Wright]

Erika's case is interesting, but I suspect it will never be fully explained in the series.

[AuraTwilight]

I just figured it was basically Erika would be the 18th person countered with True, but there is no 18th person, and there's no Erika. Even if I concede that Erika must be the 18th person if she exists, she does not. gg bro.

Also, Erika-Ball Theory. Pieces are fully capable of acting out Erika's actions and using her name as a title, as far as we know. It's no different from reds that address Beatrice by name.

[erneiz_hyde]

These reds would only apply for a hypothetical scenario that didn't even happen.

If you accept that "these reds would only apply for a hypothetical scenario that didn't even happen," please explain how that doesn't lead to the conclusion that "all reds would only apply for a hypothetical scenario that didn't even happen"?


Because if you deny a red truth because "it only applies to a hypothetical scenario that might or might not have happened," can't that method of denial be applied to ALL red truths of all games?

Yes. Is that a mind fuck for you? Yes all of the games so far probably didn't happen as real life scenarios. They are hypothetical, fictional stories, scripts, or interpretations that appeared in message bottles. The real event that happened to Rokkenjima hasn't been confirmed or shown to us yet.
As for the red truth it is meant to lead you to the truth that happened on Rokkenjima you can look at it and apply it however you want.



All of the gameboards shown before us are all hypothetical scenario that didn't even happen. Therefore nothing happened on Rokkenjima because if these were all hypothetical scenario that didn't even happen, no clue of any "real" event was ever presented. No one died, no culprits, no nothing, everyone lived happily ever after.

Just checking, is this your personal truth, Judoh?

[Judoh]

All of the gameboards shown before us are all hypothetical scenario that didn't even happen. Therefore nothing happened on Rokkenjima because if these were all hypothetical scenario that didn't even happen, no clue of any "real" event was ever presented. No one died, no culprits, no nothing, everyone lived happily ever after.

Just checking, is this your personal truth, Judoh?

No not at all. I don't deny the Rokkenjima event happened. And I don't deny there is a culprit or murders either. I'm just stating the fact that at this point it's clear that the stories are fictions inside a fiction based on an event in the fiction written by one or more characters inside the fiction.

Author theory,

[erneiz_hyde]

No not at all. I don't deny the Rokkenjima event happened. And I don't deny there is a culprit or murders either. I'm just stating the fact that at this point it's clear that the stories are fictions inside a fiction based on an event in the fiction written by one or more characters inside the fiction.

Author theory,

Yes, I think so too.

At this point, the individual game-board isn't all that important. And I personally liked the one Renall posted some month ago.

It's just that the way you stated it, it sounded like you shouldn't trust the red at all.

EDIT: durr, just in case, we shouldn't discuss theories here. :p

[Cao Ni Ma]

The final scene with Erika, Battler and Beatrice can be explained with some reasoning however that affects Erika I dont know. Battler and Beatrice state that even if they welcome her there are 17 people, they never state in that scene that there are only 17 people though.

Crazy logic but the red is used to constrict the truth around the play field, that particular scene didn't constrict anything at all.

[einhorn303]

And which game board would that be?

It's been established throughout the story that red truth can be applied to individual boards without being universally true across all boards. We also know from Maria's example and various other clues that human pieces can become game masters and create their own game boards, which can then have red truths stated about them in turn.

Erika is the eighteenth human on Rokkenjima.
Even if she is welcomed, there are seventeen people on the island.

Contradictory red truths can't exist on the same game board without creating a logic error. Therefore, these two statements must apply to two different game boards. One is the board created directly by Battler, and the other is a nested board created by one of his pieces. Erika and her actions exist only on the inner board, exactly as described by the coin puzzle early in the story.


The "contradiction" that those two red truths create is easily solvable, just like any of the Closed Room puzzles that Beatrice has tried to trick Battler with. It's probably no coincidence that one statement refers to "humans" and another to "people."

Anyway, the contradiction here is a red herring from Ryukishi07, since it can't actually apply to Erika:

There are 18 humans on the island. "Erika is the eighteenth human on Rokkenjima."
There are 17 people on the island. "Even if she is welcomed, there are seventeen people on the island."
"At least one of the people on the island is a human, but not a person."
Erika is a human: "Erika is the eighteenth human on Rokkenjima."
Erika is a person. Referring to the "count of people on the island" in Episode 5, it's stated that: "Furudo Erika only increases it by one person." The introduction of Erika introduces the count of people by 1.
"Erika is both a human and a person. Therefore, one of the other characters on the island is a human, but not a person."

How to solve this contradiction? Well:

"Maria is in a vegetative state, and is pushed around by the other characters in a wheelchair. Therefore she is a "human", but not a sentient "person." Rosa has the delusion that her daughter is fine, and everyone else humors her. None of the red truths in any of the games are contradicted if we assume this to be true. They only mention Maria being at or leaving locations (at the same time as others leave them), not taking actions, or being killed: i.e., all things that would be possible for a mentally vegetative person in a wheelchair."

or,

"One of the two humans on the island is actually a single person." (Basically, Shkannon or any similar theory.

or,

"'Person' only applies to people with the legal rights of personhood. Genji is legally owned by Kinzo as a slave, so while he's a human, he's not a person."

etc, etc.

I think the "they contradict, so they refer to different game boards" reasoning is a bit suspect. I think we should assume, by default, that all statements apply to the gameboard of their current game. Because if any statement could apply to another gameboard without explicitly stating so, we could ignore any inconvenient truth by saying, "That applies to a different gameboard."

[einhorn303]

No not at all. I don't deny the Rokkenjima event happened. And I don't deny there is a culprit or murders either. I'm just stating the fact that at this point it's clear that the stories are fictions inside a fiction based on an event in the fiction written by one or more characters inside the fiction.

Author theory,

So I guess a more accurate way of putting that forward is:

All of the gameboards shown before us are all hypothetical scenario that may or may not have happened. Therefore we have no certain proof of what happened Rokkenjima because if these were all hypothetical scenario that may or may not have happened, no clue of any "real" event was ever presented.


If one denies the Red Truth, we wouldn't know anything about the "real" Rokkenjima except for hearsay. Then it's impossible to conclusively prove or disprove Erika's existence. Maybe she existed on the island, maybe she didn't; one couldn't say with absolute certainty.

(Although I personally don't believe any "The Red Truth is fallible" sort of theories.)

[Renall]

Yes. No one can say. But one can write a story in which Erika appears, and Erika can even definitely and without question be a real, living, human person on the board of that story.

But, as LyricalAura pointed out, the cups and coins trick is a suggestion as to how this sort of thing could play out, allowing the guestroom reds to apparently contradict each other and then subsequently to conceptually deny Erika.

Erika is incapable of thinking outside the bounds of her current scenario; she's very good within that context, but doesn't grasp story trickery (and possibly textual trickery with red). This is the main weakness she has compared to Bern, who definitely does seem to have that skill. She intuitively understands that the works are fiction, but she doesn't take the next step in realizing what that can mean.

Example resolution to the Logic Error: On one board, Kanon exists (in some form), evades being entrapped in a room through Method X (name check/shkanon/etc.), and rescues Battler. This Kanon is still in the closet on that board. This is what Beatrice figured out when Kanon told her to go on the offensive. She's not making Kanon go anywhere. She's misdirecting Erika by talking about something else. Preying on assumptions is the core of Beatrice's closed room MO. So she finds a scenario in which Kanon doesn't exist in the room (I suspect she may be talking about "reality," in which Kanon perhaps does not exist at all) and postulates an entirely true red about his non-existence.

Erika is blindsided by this and loses. Before her denial, however, she figures this out, which is what she means by the "Witch of Truth" accepting the truth about herself. The truth in this scenario is subjective, and she will never win against an opponent aware of that. To prove it, she advances the red about her own existence, which she already knows Beatrice can counter. By doing so, Beatrice is forced to tip her hand about subjectivity and variable red, even though it successfully denies Erika.

(NOTE: This was just an example of a way you could use nested boards to resolve ep6)

Arguably, awareness of this subjectivity could be a bad thing to know in the wrong hands...

[Shade Vortex]

I'me going to make some off-the-wall blue truth theory, I'm just going to the extremes of saying The boat driver is the real culprit. He's actually a 19 year old girl, and his appearance doesn't count as valid even though Battler has seen him because he appeared before the story began (before everyone got off the boat, since everything before then seems set in stone). Since only Ange saw him after the story began, her viewpoint isn't absolute. When the boat left the island, it went to the second dock, where the boat driver got off and hid in the forest, or else Kuwadorian, and preceded to rig a bomb. Battler's sin is not paying the boat driver, and because of this, he has a lot of debt. He's out for revenge because his life was ruined.

...nah, just kidding. I think that either Maria or Jessica are the culrpit, since Shannon is disqualified as far as I know.

Also, my documentation of notes (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mjGVr5cxAnecTfrfRzEVvdUphrTgkdssGu3CGyleufY/edit?hl=en&authkey=CMb2oPQJ#) now includes what I've read of Episode 7. But before I write down the rest of the chapters, I'm gonna try and finish Episode 3. I'll probably be bouncing between the two.

[AuraTwilight]

The "contradiction" that those two red truths create is easily solvable, just like any of the Closed Room puzzles that Beatrice has tried to trick Battler with. It's probably no coincidence that one statement refers to "humans" and another to "people."

Anyway, the contradiction here is a red herring from Ryukishi07, since it can't actually apply to Erika:

There are 18 humans on the island. "Erika is the eighteenth human on Rokkenjima."
There are 17 people on the island. "Even if she is welcomed, there are seventeen people on the island."
"At least one of the people on the island is a human, but not a person."
Erika is a human: "Erika is the eighteenth human on Rokkenjima."
Erika is a person. Referring to the "count of people on the island" in Episode 5, it's stated that: "Furudo Erika only increases it by one person." The introduction of Erika introduces the count of people by 1.
"Erika is both a human and a person. Therefore, one of the other characters on the island is a human, but not a person."

How to solve this contradiction? Well:

"Maria is in a vegetative state, and is pushed around by the other characters in a wheelchair. Therefore she is a "human", but not a sentient "person." Rosa has the delusion that her daughter is fine, and everyone else humors her. None of the red truths in any of the games are contradicted if we assume this to be true. They only mention Maria being at or leaving locations (at the same time as others leave them), not taking actions, or being killed: i.e., all things that would be possible for a mentally vegetative person in a wheelchair."

or,

"One of the two humans on the island is actually a single person." (Basically, Shkannon or any similar theory.

or,

"'Person' only applies to people with the legal rights of personhood. Genji is legally owned by Kinzo as a slave, so while he's a human, he's not a person."

etc, etc.

I think the "they contradict, so they refer to different game boards" reasoning is a bit suspect. I think we should assume, by default, that all statements apply to the gameboard of their current game. Because if any statement could apply to another gameboard without explicitly stating so, we could ignore any inconvenient truth by saying, "That applies to a different gameboard."

This doesn't work; I'm pretty sure "Human" and "Person" are the same in the Japanese, but even if they're not, "Human" and "Person" have been used exactly the same in every other situation, ever. You have a bad habit of taking the Red either too literally, or trying to apply special rules to certain reds in order to justify your way of thinking.

Here's a more likely scenario. "Hey guys, I'm Erika, a character given the assignment of 18th person by the Gamemaster." "We're sorry, but even though it is true you were given that assignment by your creator, there are only 17 people on the island. Deal with it."

If one denies the Red Truth, we wouldn't know anything about the "real" Rokkenjima except for hearsay. Then it's impossible to conclusively prove or disprove Erika's existence. Maybe she existed on the island, maybe she didn't; one couldn't say with absolute certainty.

(Although I personally don't believe any "The Red Truth is fallible" sort of theories.)

Excuse me, can we stop the train for a second so we can address something, here? Because I think this is a stopgap that is really hurting the thinking of lots of people, here.

The Red Truth is something which is, one way or another, absolutely true we're told, right? Leaving aside the rules of this Red Truth, and it's specific workings, the person who introduced the Red Truth and defined it's powers IS NOT ACTUALLY A WITCH, and MAGIC CANNOT DO SOMETHING THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE BY HUMAN MEANS.

Beatrice is a human being. We know this, even if we haven't been able to explicitly prove it; it's the premise for our win condition. If Beatrice is a human being, how in the fuck can she just conveniently whip out some magical power that is magically compelled to be absolutely right all the time? She can't.

The power of the Red Truth works because of what she says: That is, she only repeats things she knows are true from her own life experience (Maria's past, for instance), or she speaks about the Gameboards, which are fictions she (or a higher plane author, it doesn't matter) wrote herself, as they exist as stories in the "real world" of 1998. Of course she can speak about the truths of AN IMAGINARY WORLD SHE FUCKING INVENTED, and though these gameboards exist to help us discern the truth between them, these Red Truths do not necessarily speak of the reality of Rokkenjima Prime unless we are explicitly told so or we can prove they do. The Red Truth is no different from JK Rowling saying Dumbledore is Gay.

Keeping this in mind, you have been abusing the authority of the Red Truth, treating it's statements as a divine thing that supercedes the Gameboards in all contexts. That's not the way it works. Hell, Beatrice even mentions using magic in Red when Ange tries to get Maria out of the Golden Land, meaning that in the most literal sense, the Red Truth is not absolutely reliable. It is treated as valid only because the players and readers involved decided to trust the speaker. Lambdadelta all but affirms this.

[Judoh]

So I guess a more accurate way of putting that forward is:

All of the gameboards shown before us are all hypothetical scenario that may or may not have happened. Therefore we have no certain proof of what happened Rokkenjima because if these were all hypothetical scenario that may or may not have happened, no clue of any "real" event was ever presented.


WTF? Seriously. Where in the statements "I don't deny the Rokkenjima event happened" "there is a real rokkenjima called Rokkenjima prime" do you people get "no clue for any real event was ever presented"?

This leap in logic has no fucking starting point.

[einhorn303]

This doesn't work; I'm pretty sure "Human" and "Person" are the same in the Japanese, but even if they're not, "Human" and "Person" have been used exactly the same in every other situation, ever. You have a bad habit of taking the Red either too literally, or trying to apply special rules to certain reds in order to justify your way of thinking.

I've heard from people who speak Japanese that, yes, they are different terms.

The Red must be taken literally. To quote:
The red only tells the truth.
The red truth is simply truth, and there is no need to provide evidence, proof, or room for a counter-argument!!
You can't trust anything, you can't trust any words that aren't red...!!

Here's a more likely scenario. "Hey guys, I'm Erika, a character given the assignment of 18th person by the Gamemaster." "We're sorry, but even though it is true you were given that assignment by your creator, there are only 17 people on the island. Deal with it."

That's not what Erika said. She said she was "the 18th human on Rokkenjima." Therefore, she is a human on Rokkenjima. She said nothing about being a character given an assignment. If anything is "trying to apply special rules to certain reds," it's taking what the Red Truth literally says and interpreting it to say something completely different.

The Red Truth is something which is, one way or another, absolutely true we're told, right? Leaving aside the rules of this Red Truth, and it's specific workings, the person who introduced the Red Truth and defined it's powers IS NOT ACTUALLY A WITCH, and MAGIC CANNOT DO SOMETHING THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE BY HUMAN MEANS.

Beatrice is a human being. We know this, even if we haven't been able to explicitly prove it; it's the premise for our win condition. If Beatrice is a human being, how in the fuck can she just conveniently whip out some magical power that is magically compelled to be absolutely right all the time? She can't.

Magic doesn't exist on the gameboard or in reality, but it does exist in the meta world.
Notice that there are never any red truths spoken about the meta world. It doesn't hold up to any sort of logic or consistency, and can have any sort of magic: it's a hypothetical world of the author's imagination.

About the win condition: Battler has to disprove the existance of witches on the gameboard (and a very specific gameboard of that island, on those two days), not in the meta world. He's quite explicit about this.

The power of the Red Truth works because of what she says: That is, she only repeats things she knows are true from her own life experience (Maria's past, for instance), or she speaks about the Gameboards, which are fictions she (or a higher plane author, it doesn't matter) wrote herself, as they exist as stories in the "real world" of 1998. Of course she can speak about the truths of AN IMAGINARY WORLD SHE FUCKING INVENTED, and though these gameboards exist to help us discern the truth between them, these Red Truths do not necessarily speak of the reality of Rokkenjima Prime unless we are explicitly told so or we can prove they do. The Red Truth is no different from JK Rowling saying Dumbledore is Gay.

The higher plane author of all episodes is ryukishi07.

I find it difficult to except that there is a "Rokkenjima Prime" that is a "more real" than the gameboards. They're all equally fiction, written by ryukishi07. If JK Rowling says that Dumbledore is gay, then yes, that makes Dumbledore's homosexuality an absolutely truth in the world of Harry Potter. In the same sense, everything ryukishi07 writes in red is an absolute truth in the world of Umineko.

Hell, Beatrice even mentions using magic in Red when Ange tries to get Maria out of the Golden Land

Once again, she used magic in the meta world. Magic exists in the meta world, but in the gameboard or "reality." So the red truth isn't contradicted there. Anyways, if you don't trust the red truth of ryukishi07, then there's no point to any discussion about the "truth" of Umineko. Without the absolute truth provided by an infallible red, we're just talking about what we want to be the truth, or what we "believe" to be the truth, not what is the truth.

...meaning that in the most literal sense, the Red Truth is not absolutely reliable. It is treated as valid only because the players and readers involved decided to trust the speaker. Lambdadelta all but affirms this.

This should be in blue, not red.

[einhorn303]

WTF? Seriously. Where in the statement "I don't deny the Rokkenjima event happened" do you people get "no clue for any real event was ever presented"?

This leap in logic has no fucking starting point.

I meant to say "no clue of absolute truth." Of course there are lots of "clues," but they'd all be hearsay taken from the subjective perspective of the people telling the stories.

[Jan-Poo]

A clue of absolute truth doesn't exist. Any factor you see in a mystery novel might be just a red herring if you don't trust the author enough.

[Judoh]

That's not what Erika said. She said she was "the 18th human on Rokkenjima." Therefore, she is a human on Rokkenjima.

And? It's the same as these red

My name is Ushiromiya Battler
I am the Golden Witch, Beatrice

of course later Battler's identity was questioned.
And Beatrice can't really be a witch she's human so Golden witch is a title

Erika's title would just happen to be 'the 18th human on Rokkenjima'. When on the real Rokkenjima no 18th person ever arrived. Simple.

[einhorn303]

A clue of absolute truth doesn't exist. Any factor you see in a mystery novel might be just a red herring if you don't trust the author enough.

And I trust the author. If I didn't, there'd be no point to debating what the truth of Umineko is.


And? It's the same as these red

My name is Ushiromiya Battler
I am the Golden Witch, Beatrice

of course later Battler's identity was questioned.
And Beatrice can't really be a witch she's human so Golden witch is a title

Erika's title would just happen to be 'the 18th human on Rokkenjima'. When on the real Rokkenjima no 18th person ever arrived. Simple.

I get the title theory, but in the 5th game it says (after Erika arrives):

"In that case, what happens to the number of people on this island right now?"
"Of course, it's a plus 1 over the previous number. But don't worry. Furudo Erika only increases it by one person.."

The arrival of Furudo Erika increases the amount of people on the island by one. Independently of the "18th human" statement, that implies that Erika is a person who existed on the island.

The red truth about Battler's name and his biological heritage don't contradict each other. He can be legally named Ushiromiya Battler, and still not be Rudolf's son. When kids are adopted, they're still allowed to use the last name of their foster parents.

Regarding "I am the Golden Witch, Beatrice:" If she spoke it on the meta world, she might still be a witch in the meta world but not in the gameboard of "reality."

[Judoh]

The arrival of Furudo Erika increases the amount of people on the island by one. Independently of the "18th human" statement, that implies that Erika is a person who existed on the island.

She increases it by X plus 1 and she only does so in forgeries that go by the 'premise' that she drifted there after falling off a boat called the Eternal Maid II. It even says this much in her death TIPS for episode 6.


Regarding "I am the Golden Witch, Beatrice:" If she spoke it on the meta world, she might still be a witch in the meta world but not in the gameboard of "reality."

That's seriously no different than admitting you beleive she's a witch. You're on the wrong track.

[AuraTwilight]

I've heard from people who speak Japanese that, yes, they are different terms.

The Red must be taken literally. To quote:
The red only tells the truth.
The red truth is simply truth, and there is no need to provide evidence, proof, or room for a counter-argument!!
You can't trust anything, you can't trust any words that aren't red...!!

It's cute how you think this actually means anything.
1) The Red only tells the truth. This is true, but it doesn't mean it's absolute. It's just that Beatrice can't lie in it, and she can make truthful statements about a work of fiction. Besides, this is circular reasoning. It's like saying the Bible is absolutely true because the Bible says so. If you decide to trust the Bible, sure. The Red only has validity because everyone has agreed to give it such.

2) This doesn't really add anything.

3) We know this isn't EXACTLY true. The Gold and the White have all been used to reliably tell us truthful things. It's just that these do not carry a guarantee like the Red does.


That's not what Erika said. She said she was "the 18th human on Rokkenjima." Therefore, she is a human on Rokkenjima. She said nothing about being a character given an assignment. If anything is "trying to apply special rules to certain reds," it's taking what the Red Truth literally says and interpreting it to say something completely different.

I am Erika, the 18th human on Rokkenjima. Alright, but Erika doesn't exist. She's also the detective, but she doesn't exist. Just like how Sakutarou is Maria's precious friend even though he is not real. You really need to think in layers, here. If we assume that all Red Truths are universally valid in all contexts, then nothing will ever make sense, because they blatantly contradict each other at times due to being in different contexts.

Magic doesn't exist on the gameboard or in reality, but it does exist in the meta world.

Prove it.

I say it doesn't, because the Meta-World scenes are demonstratably scenes in a written work of fiction just like the Gameboard, and Beatrice is not a witch. I mean, sure, I guess you're right in that within the narrative of the Meta-World, magic happens, like how magic happens in Middle Earth, but that would only be conceding the point of mine that the Red Truths can apply to fictions without speaking about Objective Reality, or you could say that Magic is something else, such as "stage magic", but that's also conceding the same point of the Red Truth not having to be literal so long as it is still true.

The Red cannot always be literal all the time. It's not possible.

Notice that there are never any red truths spoken about the meta world. It doesn't hold up to any sort of logic or consistency, and can have any sort of magic: it's a hypothetical world of the author's imagination.

Er...except, yes, there are reds spoken about the Meta-World.

This is my Golden Land
A world where magic that isn't mine certainly cannot exist
Don't leave me all alone!!!
The witch before your eyes stole away my whole family, even you, Onii-chan...! Finish her...!!
Then, take your family back!!
And then, .........come home to me......!!!
You are all alone on this island. And of course, I am not you. Yet I am here, now, and will kill you.
It's possible to show a different truth by using a different interpretation!!
hi-hhihihhihihihihihihihihihihi
Come on, Ushiromiya Battler, kneel
*cackle*cackle*cackle*hihihihihihihihihihihyahyahy ahhahhahahahaha-hhahahahhahhahhahhahhahhahha

There's a few Red Truths on the Meta-World for you. I also threw in, as a bonus, some Red Truths that were either requests, laughter, or other statements that literally have no bearing on true or false one way or another, and I also chucked in some Reds that are literally impossible unless you use metaphor.


About the win condition: Battler has to disprove the existance of witches on the gameboard (and a very specific gameboard of that island, on those two days), not in the meta world. He's quite explicit about this.

Agreed, but Beatrice is still not a witch.

The higher plane author of all episodes is ryukishi07.

Though inbetween that plane and the Gameboards, we also have Hachijou Tohya, and the human identity of Beatrice who wrote the original two message bottles.

I find it difficult to except that there is a "Rokkenjima Prime" that is a "more real" than the gameboards. They're all equally fiction, written by ryukishi07. If JK Rowling says that Dumbledore is gay, then yes, that makes Dumbledore's homosexuality an absolutely truth in the world of Harry Potter. In the same sense, everything ryukishi07 writes in red is an absolute truth in the world of Umineko.

So, then, what's the problem, here? We KNOW that the Gameboards are fiction. Someone in Ange's world of 1998 wrote them. Ange, and other people in her world, can read them on the internet, complete with scenes that use "red ink" to clarify parts. There's even a group of Witch Hunters that debate what's going on just like we do.

The Gameboards and probably the Meta-World are fictions written by humans. There is only ONE truth of what really happened on Rokkenjima, or else the idea of trying to uncover the truth of what happened is an absolutely fucking meaningless statement. How are we expected to deduce what really happened if there's no valid universe? Did the universe break into many timelines for two days, then merged back together for Ange's future, or some nonsense?

Once again, she used magic in the meta world. Magic exists in the meta world, but in the gameboard or "reality." So the red truth isn't contradicted there. Anyways, if you don't trust the red truth of ryukishi07, then there's no point to any discussion about the "truth" of Umineko. Without the absolute truth provided by an infallible red, we're just talking about what we want to be the truth, or what we "believe" to be the truth, not what is the truth.

The gameboard is not Reality. Erika uses Red on the Gameboard, and people can be forced to act in magical ways through the Detective's Authority. Time can be stopped indefinitely, or Gameboards (universes, according to you) can be destroyed by Logic Errors. Are you proposing that someone making a logical contradiction on some island somewhere can destroy an entire fucking universe? Holy shit, Erika. I'm not saying there isn't an absolute truth, and I'm not saying I don't trust the red truth. I'm just saying the two aren't necessarily the exact same thing.

Though it's funny you should talk about us arguing about what is the truth subjectively, because that's exactly what we're supposed to be doing. Did the thing about multiple truths and catboxes not get through?

This should be in blue, not red.

It's a true statement, though.

Regarding "I am the Golden Witch, Beatrice:" If she spoke it on the meta world, she might still be a witch in the meta world but not in the gameboard of "reality."

But you just said yourself that the Meta-World is the world of an author's imagination. Are you conceding that the Red Truth CAN comment on imaginary fictions in someone's mind? Huh, funny that. It's almost like you're contradicting yourself.

Six years ago for me, no person called Beatrice existed.

Oh yea, I'd also like to bring up this red truth. Do you think that Beatrice's human self is only six years old? If not, you must concede that the Red Truth cannot be literal, that it can incorporate metaphor, or that it can speak on the context of fictions, such as imaginary personas.

Either way, your line of thinking won't hold up by the very Red Truth you hold in such high regard.

[einhorn303]

She increases it by X plus 1 and she only does so in forgeries that go by the 'premise' that she drifted there after falling off a boat called the Eternal Maid II. It even says this much in her death TIPS for episode 6.

That doesn't really prove anything, if you're using the argument of:

"Forgers who know of this accident often theorize that she drifted onto Rokkenjima...." - Therefore, she didn't drift onto Rokkenjima.

This has the form of:

"Forgers often theorize that [X]" - Therefore, [not X].
Which leads to an abundance of logical absurdities

"Forgers often theorize that people died on Rokkenjima." - Therefore, nobody died on Rokkenjima.

"Forgers often theorize that Rokkenjima is an island." - Therefore, Rokkenjima isn't an island.


Secoondly, her life tips say that: "On October 4, 1986, she drifted to Rokkenjima. The Ushiromiya family welcomed her as a guest. She managed to drift to the island unharmed..." How do you determine which has precedence over the other?


Thirdly, these TIPS aren't the red truth and there's no way of know if they're simply misdirection/lies or not.

[AuraTwilight]

That doesn't really prove anything, if you're using the argument of:

"Forgers who know of this accident often theorize that she drifted onto Rokkenjima...." - Therefore, she didn't drift onto Rokkenjima.

And she didn't. She DID, however, in two fictional stories that contain those "red inks" (and Hachijou, who wrote EPs 5 and 6, says there's red inks in her stories).

Unless you want to argue that someone with a psychic connection to the Meta World, the ability to say the Red Truth in the real world, the abilities of super hearing and crap like that existed on Rokkenjima, those Red Truths can only apply to a fiction.

This has the form of:

"Forgers often theorize that [X]" - Therefore, [not X].
Which leads to an abundance of logical absurdities

"Forgers often theorize that people died on Rokkenjima." - Therefore, nobody died on Rokkenjima.

"Forgers often theorize that Rokkenjima is an island." - Therefore, Rokkenjima isn't an island.

This is the stupidest attempt at a logical fallacy ever.

"Forgers theorize X" so X isn't true, does not mean "forgers theorize Y", so Y isn't true. I don't know if you know this, but people can theorize things and be correct. Shocking, I know.

Secoondly, her life tips say that: "On October 4, 1986, she drifted to Rokkenjima. The Ushiromiya family welcomed her as a guest. She managed to drift to the island unharmed..." How do you determine which has precedence over the other?

The ones that tell us more truthful information and don't involve magic happening in real life.

[Judoh]

That doesn't really prove anything, if you're using the argument of:

"Forgers who know of this accident often theorize that she drifted onto Rokkenjima...." - Therefore, she didn't drift onto Rokkenjima.

They admit there is no evidence that says she did. They just like to think she did. and Who says I have to prove anything?

Besides the author confirmed the Rokkenjima explosion part of that TIP and backed it up with evidence many readers already knew about in an interview. That TIP is therefore more reliable than the former.


This has the form of:

"Forgers often theorize that [X]" - Therefore, [not X].
Which leads to an abundance of logical absurdities

"Forgers often theorize that people died on Rokkenjima." - Therefore, nobody died on Rokkenjima.

"Forgers often theorize that Rokkenjima is an island." - Therefore, Rokkenjima isn't an island.

See above.

the last one isn't even a theory in the world of Umineko it's fact. These things have nothing to do with one another. They are different issues and can be treated as such.


Secoondly, her life tips say that: "On October 4, 1986, she drifted to Rokkenjima. The Ushiromiya family welcomed her as a guest. She managed to drift to the island unharmed..." How do you determine which has precedence over the other?

see above author said it's trust worthy information.


Thirdly, these TIPS aren't the red truth and there's no way of know if they're simply misdirection/lies or not.

Did you read the same sound novel I did? What did that whole conversation between Battler and Dlanor about red vs white text mean to you? What did all those 'I acknowledge it' reds mean to you?

What does this quote mean to you?

"If you do love me, you must see my words as red truth, right?"
-Lambdadelta

[Renall]

Of course Erika increases the count by one... in only those stories where she exists.

So does the magic half-elephant man with whooping cough who parachutes onto the island from a crashing airplane in the Rokkenjima story I just made up in my head. The fact that he exists in this Rokkenjima story does not mean he exists in all Rokkenjima stories, let alone that he existed on the "real" Rokkenjima, if there was one (well, if there was one in the intermediate "reality" layer, as there obviously was no such place or event in our reality).

Erika is free to exist in any story in which she is permitted to exist. Lambda essentially alters a premise of the game in order to permit it to happen. This expands the set of stories into which Rokkenjima tales can be spun.

But nothing prevents Beatrice, or indeed anyone with the proper knowledge, from speaking about something else entirely, so long as no one calls them out on it. Watch, I'll use magic right in front of you:

The magic half-elephant man with whooping cough parachuted onto Rokkenjima from a crashing airplane!
Everyone saw him clearly land in the rose garden! But that was an illusion... he never landed there, because he can fly!
While he was flying, he teleported to another planet, which is why he does not exist anywhere in this world, whether on Rokkenjima or not!
Indeed, in this world he never existed in the first place! But of course, he really does exist.

Battler said this was going to piss off the purists. Now you see why.

[Klashikari]

It is nice and dandy to have a discussion going on, but I would like to remind all of you that no matter what, everyone is entitled to their opinions.
Things are: some members behaviour and speech style are dangerously crawling towards flame war and whatnot.

You may disagree with anyone, but please do not start going all personal or sarcastic for the hell of it. Any comment judged inappropriate will be deleted, along with a penalty if needed.

[AuraTwilight]

Duly noted.

[Jan-Poo]

And I trust the author. If I didn't, there'd be no point to debating what the truth of Umineko is.

Good, then basically my point is that since I trust the author even if I know that the gameboards are fictional stories I believe that they contain all the elements to understand what truly happened on Rokkenjima.

Of course it is easy to say "the gameboards are fake stories so they are irrelevant" but in my opinion it's as easy as saying "the author is trolling us so whatever he narrates can be ignored completely".

So in the end in my opinion whether the gameboards are true or fiction it doesn't change a thing, if you trust the author you'll believe you can use the information given to reach the truth regardless.

[AuraTwilight]

What Jan-Poo said. Assuming that everything is true as presented only muddles the issue more, in my opinion. The validity of the gameboards doesn't matter; regardless of their content, they were given, in-universe and out-universe, by an author who wants us to discern the truth. Admitting that the gameboards are fictions even within Umineko's universe is not "distrusting the author."

[erneiz_hyde]

Dully, I don't see where this discussion is going because if we start doubting the authenticity of red truths then there is really no point in arguing Umineko's truth because EVERYTHING is allowed to be truth, thus the Schrodinger's Cat Metaphor.

To me, it sounds like you guys are saying:
"Umineko no Naku Koro ni" is a fiction. There is no Ushiromiya Kinzo, Krauss, Natsuhi, Eva, Hideyoshi, Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, George, Jessica, Battler, or Maria in real life. The servants Gohda, Kumasawa, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, and the dotor Nanjo doesn't exist in real life. There is no Rokkenjima in real life. There is no Rokkenjima Incident in real life.

The red truth should only be applicable only in each episode they were presented, and they should be the truth for their corresponding gameboard. This way the red truth can stand by itself and shouldn't defy logic.

The red truth should be a clue or restraints for us to find out what happened in Rokkenjima-Prime, but strictly in this sense, even the whites are clues on what happened in Rokkenjima-Prime.

And I thought weyou guys established this sometime ago.

[Renall]

To me, it sounds like you guys are saying:
"Umineko no Naku Koro ni" is a fiction. There is no Ushiromiya Kinzo, Krauss, Natsuhi, Eva, Hideyoshi, Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, George, Jessica, Battler, or Maria in real life. The servants Gohda, Kumasawa, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, and the dotor Nanjo doesn't exist in real life. There is no Rokkenjima in real life. There is no Rokkenjima Incident in real life.This is a completely valid red.

So is Ushiromiya Kinzo, Krauss, Natsuhi, Eva, Hideyoshi, Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, George, Jessica, Battler, and Maria existed. The servants Gohda, Kumasawa, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, and the doctor Nanjo existed. Rokkenjima is a real island. The Rokkenjima Incident occurred in 1986.

[Judoh]

Well I'll start by saying that no one here doubts the authenticity of all red truths. We doubt that they are universal for every game and we doubt that they can be authentic without their game's context. (unless the context is that it applies to all games) No we use the red truth like Knox's rules as a crutch for thinking that is open to interpretation.

There are people who doubt that the red truth Nanjo is not a murderer is universal. Does that mean they doubt the authenticity of the red truth? No they doubt that Nanjo can't be a murderer in all games. I don't agree with that opinion, but it's a valid one to have.

We trust the white text to be able to give us a sea of hints that the red truth cannot. Because while the red truth can give you direction it is not an absolute truth of the story detector. You need to actually read the story and look past the red to get it.

[AuraTwilight]

What they said. And all I'm personally saying is that one can't assume that all Red Truths have to be 100% literal, or that if a Red Truth is stated, it must be apply to an actual Real World instead of a fictional Gameboard.

Take, for instance, the Red Truth, You are all alone on this island. And of course, I am not you. Yet I am here, now, and will kill you. We pretty much know for a fact that the bomb explosion is what's being referred to here, but Beatrice ("I") made the statement. Does this mean Battler's been arguing with a bomb, this whole time? Does this mean Beatrice's ghost is going to turn on the bomb? Of course not. It's allegorical, even though it's totally true.

I don't understand why some people have such difficulty with this. I really, sincerely don't get what the problem is.

[Leafsnail]

Stupid idea: who's generally the last person off the boat? In other words, under Shkannon... who was the 18th person of Rokkenjima?

[AuraTwilight]

I'm pretty sure it's...Maria, I think? Either her or Rosa, since they more or less walked off the boat in Family Order.

[einhorn303]

This is the stupidest attempt at a logical fallacy ever.

"Forgers theorize X" so X isn't true, does not mean "forgers theorize Y", so Y isn't true. I don't know if you know this, but people can theorize things and be correct. Shocking, I know.


I think you're misinterpreting me. I'm saying that the logical form Judoh implied (broken down into predicate logic) of:

∀x believes(forgers,x)⇒¬x

Doesn't hold in real life, since it leads to those absurdities. So my point is exactly yours that: "People can theorize things and be correct."

Or, more specific to this situation:

"The fact that forgers theorize Erika survived doesn't mean that Erika didn't survive."



Anyways, I think one important point is that if the Red Truths don't apply to Rokkenjima Prime, and you can only rely on the fallible and possibly false clues of white text, than one can't say:

"Erika did not exist on Rokkenjima Prime. This is a fact."

One can only say:

"I don't believe that Erika existed on Rokkenjima Prime. This is my subjective opinion."

You can speculate a truth about Rokkenjima prime, but you can't prove a truth about Rokkenjima prime.

[Judoh]

you can speculate a truth about Rokkenjima prime, but you can't prove a truth about Rokkenjima prime.

I never said otherwise.

Well again. Why do I have to prove anything to you? If even witch hunters doubt the speculation of other witch hunters on this issue I can conclude it's doubtful she ever did exist on Rokkenjima prime. If I want. And there are no problems with either side. The reason the rest of your argument is fallacious is because the rest of your examples are canon. While Erika's status can be credibly questioned due to statements in the story. They are irrelevant to this issue.

[AuraTwilight]

Anyways, I think one important point is that if the Red Truths don't apply to Rokkenjima Prime

I'm going to stop you right there, because I've NEVER claimed that, and neither has anyone else. The point I was making is that Beatrice, being in reality a human being, can only make these Red Truths because she has human means of knowing they are true through either 1) Personal knowledge and direct experience due to having been a witness to the Rokkenjima tragedy, or 2) Being an author of a fictional reality wherein she can say anything she wants.

She is not pulling details out of the aether with witch magic, it's all stuff she knows as a person. She is not a psychic.

[Kylon99]

Yes, what Aura said. In fact, the Author Theory when I postulated it way back when had a consequence that certain ideas, including some of the Red Truth must come from Rokkenjima Prime in order for the story to be more well regarded as an Umineko story.

The theory is in my signature, and included is something also included at the time called the Historical Method Theory, which explains how and why the stories are still useful even if they are fictional.

(The Red Text Theory and the idea about 'Core Truth' in the Author Theory are similar. The difference being that Core Truths can include ideas that are not stated in red.)

[Jan-Poo]

Anyways, I think one important point is that if the Red Truths don't apply to Rokkenjima Prime, and you can only rely on the fallible and possibly false clues of white text, than one can't say:

"Erika did not exist on Rokkenjima Prime. This is a fact."

One can only say:

"I don't believe that Erika existed on Rokkenjima Prime. This is my subjective opinion."

You can speculate a truth about Rokkenjima prime, but you can't prove a truth about Rokkenjima prime.

Well yeah. But the problem exists regardless. I think that the concept of "Rokkenjima Prime" was introduced before the author theory was commonly accepted and it referred to the most relevant universe, the one in which all the simultaneous truth would collapse after opening the cat box.

Basically it was born from the many world interpretation perspective.
Where I'm getting at is that since the beginning it was clear that the reds are only relevant to their specific world. How can that be denied when you have a "this applies to all games" staring at your face? At that point it became clear that each red truth is not a general truth unless stated otherwise. And even in that otherwise cases people wondered if that applied to all games past and future or all games so far.

The author theory doesn't change much on that department, it still says that all reds are tied to their specific setting, like before.

The only change is that "Rokkenjima Prime" became "the only real universe" and not "the original universe before the quantic superposition".

[AuraTwilight]

What Jan-Poo said. And we know that Episode One isn't this universe, so that lead to the conclusion of Rokkenjima Prime.

[Renall]

Note that "Rokkenjima Prime" is purely speculative at this time. It's very popular and a great many of us tend to believe that unlike say Higurashi which clearly embraced multiple worlds or time loops in some sense, there is only one "reality" within Umineko's setting and the "loop" effect is the result of clever presentation. That doesn't make us right, but I think the weight of the evidence is on there being only one post-1986 world.

Whether we have ever actually seen that world, we don't know. The prevailing notion is that the "Prime" world is similiar to, but perhaps not exactly identical to, the 1998 of ep4.

When people refer to "Rokkenjima Prime," they're referring to the hypothetical reality in which one could exist and read the stories which were found in message bottles or written for the Internet, in whatever format those stories take. We aren't even sure what that means.

Essentially, that "true" universe is unknown. However, in spite of the whole "cat box" claim, it is not unknowable. Whether any red in any game applies to that world, however, is not known. Your guess is as good as mine. Most of what I've seen speculated about the "Prime" universe comes from white text and "reliable" sources such as the endscroll stories and ep4 characters.

[einhorn303]

Regarding levels of reality, I believe that all levels below oneself flatten out. If I'm an observer, with descending levels like:

1. Real world (me).
2. Rokkenjima Prime
3. Gameboards
4. The magical girl anime Maria is watching while on a gameboard.

All the levels below me appear equally fictional. So I don't think I see the point in distinguishing which is more real.

And regarding the mystery of "what really happened on Rokkenjima," since I only have hard evidence about the Gameboards and not about Rokkenjima Prime*, I don't care about that mystery. The mystery of the gameboards is a mystery of absolute evidence and testable theories. The mystery of what really happened on Rokkenjima has no evidence, and no theory can be absolutely disproven. If the game of the gameboards is a game of logic, the game of Rokkenjima Prime must be "guessing what ryukishi07's thought process is like." The form of that second game doesn't interest me.

Essentially, that "true" universe is unknown. However, in spite of the whole "cat box" claim, it is not unknowable. Whether any red in any game applies to that world, however, is not known. Your guess is as good as mine. Most of what I've seen speculated about the "Prime" universe comes from white text and "reliable" sources such as the endscroll stories and ep4 characters.

* I don't believe in the truth of anything that isn't in red.

[Renall]

Regarding levels of reality, I believe that all levels below oneself flatten out. If I'm an observer, with descending levels like:

1. Real world (me).
2. Rokkenjima Prime
3. Gameboards
4. The magical girl anime Maria is watching while on a gameboard.

All the levels below me appear equally fictional. So I don't think I see the point in distinguishing which is more real.Then you are completely missing what I believe is a rather essential point of deciphering Ryukishi's intent, because he has done exactly as you described, flattened all existing layers into one text. He expects us to attempt to decipher it, this is his entire game.

If you don't care about that, you might as well just read ep1-4 and try to figure out the episodic mysteries, and stop there.And regarding the mystery of "what really happened on Rokkenjima," since I only have hard evidence about the Gameboards and not about Rokkenjima Prime*, I don't care about that mystery. The mystery of the gameboards is a mystery of absolute evidence and testable theories. The mystery of what really happened on Rokkenjima has no evidence, and no theory can be absolutely disproven. If the game of the gameboards is a game of logic, the game of Rokkenjima Prime must be "guessing what ryukishi07's thought process is like." The form of that second game doesn't interest me.

* I don't believe in the truth of anything that isn't in red.Then, again, you can pretty much be satisfied with ep1-4 and stop right now because all Chiru is about is that "second game" you don't care about. A second game which is, by the way, apparently the game he wanted us playing all along, by his own admission.

Finally, if you don't believe the truth of anything that isn't in red, what exactly is the point of being in a discussion thread? Nothing here will be in red, and any interpretation of red isn't in red itself, so you can't trust it. What, then, is the point of talking about it?

[AuraTwilight]

Boy, if red is all you care about, you're gonna fucking hate Episode 7.

BTW, I'd like to point out that Erika was someone who claimed that only Red was valid, and look where that got her.

As Dlanor herself said, "And yet, without the Red Truth, how could I possibly convince you that I love you?" ... "You still have not countered the Blue Truths demonstrating that I love you."

If you rely only on the Red Truth, then you're intentionally missing out on the main point Ryukishi is making about truth in the first place. After all, didn't Battler say he decided to trust Beatrice, because "her tears had the red truth mixed in with them?"

Which is a metaphor, by the way.

[Thunder Book]

Without love, the truth cannot be seen.

So that means... look at everyone with love to see who can really be trusted?

I think... I finally get what to look for now. Or rather how to look at this whole story.

[serverwolf]

hi there.
right now im tring to slove EP2, i think i already figured out the 'tale' of the first riddel-murder (the chapel)

At the 2nd day, Rosa was told to go to the chapel by Genji. She saw Shanon, Kanon, and Gohda there too.
On the doors to the chapel, a bloody sign was written, and the words "Happy Halloween for Maria" were written too.
Rosa went to the 'Guest Room', took the letter Maria got the day before, and went to the chapel with the key.
The victims looked like they were asleep.
At the scene of the crime, there were cakes, cookies and more sweets for Halloween.
The chapel was locked at the morning of the 2nd day.

Regardless of whether they were living or dead, the six people definitely entered through the door.
Only one key to the chapel exists.
It is impossible to unlock the lock to the chapel without the chapel's key.
When the door to the chapel is locked, it prevents any and all methods of entry or exit.

This morning, Rosa definitely took an envelope out of Maria's handbag, and thereby obtained the genuine key to the chapel.
The key to the chapel truly was the object inside the envelope I gave Maria.
Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands!!
When the six were killed in the chapel, the culprit was inside the chapel!
The six people were already dead by the time they were discovered!

In other words: the only way to enter to the chapel is to open the door with the key, enter the chapel, and then lock the door.

However: Maria got the envelope with the key at the first day, not only that, the six victims were alive and not in the chapel at that point.

Maria gets the envelope at the 1st day. = the door to the chapel cannot be locked\unlocked until the morning of the 2nd day.

If we take that into consideration, and the order of things the killer have to do (get the key> open the chapel> enter the chapel with 6 more people> decorate the chapel> kill the 6> exit the chapel> lock the door> return the key into the letter)
That can only mean one thing! When Maria got the envelope with the key, the chapel was not locked. It was open at the first day!
The door was not locked. Before Maria got the envelope, the culprit unlocked the chapel, and only then gave Maria the envelope. Therefore, to enter and exit the chapel (at the first day) key is not needed.
The six people were already dead by the time they were discovered!
The culprit could take the key to the chapel from Maria's envelope, lock the door, and return the key back into the envelope.Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands!!
• Rosa could open the envelope in an early hour of the morning (much before 6:30, and before we saw) to check what Beato gave Maria. After that, the culprit took the key from the envelope, locked the chapel, and returned the key to the envelope.
• Rosa could be the criminal.
• Rosa could be black mailed by the real criminal, she was made to open the latter and give the key to the criminal.


The criminal stole the key to the chapel,
and opened the chapel. he\she decorated it, and then put the key in a letter.
Then the criminal gave the letter to Maria.

-night time-
The 6 victims were in the dining room.
The criminal drugged their tea with sleeping pills,
and victims fell asleep.
Then, the criminal took the 6 into the chapel,
Cut their stomachs with a knife, and went out of the chapel.

-really early in the morning-
Rosa wanted to know what was inside the letter Maria got, so she opened it, she saw a big key.
Without understanding anything, she put the key back in the letter and the letter back in Maria's bag and went to sleep.
The criminal toke the letter from Maria's bag, toke the key, quickly went to the chapel, locked it, quickly returned the key to the letter to the bag, and moved on.


just from the fact that the key was inside the letter,
this level of reasoning is possible for Serverwolf.
What do you think, everyone?

[Cao Ni Ma]

I already said that in another thread (the Maria one) some times ago. Its either Rosa lied the whole time, the door was never locked in the first place and she committed the crimes. Why would she willingly lie about the chapel being closed and hamper Battler the way she does in the story? Despite that Rosa takes the most traditional detective stance in this EP, going over it again I noticed that everything she says takes into account the detective rules.

Either that or Maria is the culprit or an accomplice, she opened the door to the chapel and closed it again and then re-sealed the letter. The door was locked in the morning and Rosa never lied until the scene "surrender" when noticing that Battler couldn't have placed the letter , threw him under the bus anyways cause the only person that could have done it was her daughter. This possible outcome is foreshadowed in the first episode when under similar circumstances Battler asks how Natsuhi would react if Jessica was one of the likely suspects.

e- I still think that the most important part in the chapel scene is that Beatrice held back on that red about Maria's letter never switching possession. This stumped Battler in EP4, it would have outright crushed him in EP2. I've always believed that Beatrice is protecting the culprit in some way or another and revealing that truth in EP2 would have made Maria the most probable accomplice/culprit.

[AuraTwilight]

I thought it was obvious the door was never locked, since it was pretty conspicuous how it never came up. Rosa unlocking the door twice is just sorta stupid and counterproductive to any agenda or personality you want to assign her, in my opinion.

[serverwolf]

no! rosa is most defenetly not the criminal here.
its a 'story' about the real criminal of the first twilight and rosa's action. rosa is most defenetly inocent in this riddel.

AuraTwilight you talked to me?if you did, i do belive that the door was locked at the 2nd day when rosa unlocked it (like we saw) but it was open in the first day until very early in the morning of the 2nd day where the culrpit (not rosa) locked it.

BTW cao ni ma, rosa is not really the detective, actully she did an action that if you notice what she did, your mind will imidiatly yell "she is the culrpit!"

-edit-
opsy, i forgot 2 importent things in my 'tale'. :heh:
the first one is the notice that shanon found in the dining room.
the culrpit probebly put that notice after he locked the chapel, becuse if some servent will enter the dining room and see the notice there while the chapel is open... its bad end for the culrpit. (i hop you understnd what i mean)

the 2nd one is the gold. 3 bars of gold that were inside the chapel, i could slip it into the decoration category, however its pretty much show rosa's inocent (in my eyes at least)

[AuraTwilight]

Why can't the door to the chapel have never been locked at all?

[UsagiTenpura]

Hmm why is ep 2 being talked to in ep 6 thread? It's not like the convo "lead" there either...

And I assume Serverwolf's argument is related to "why would Rosa even go get the key if the door wasn't locked in the first place". There's plenty of answers to that tho. One is that Rosa wasn't aware or thinking about it's locked/unlocked status, just saw the big Happy Halloween Maria and thought of the letter and went to get it, unaware yet of the locked/unlocked status of the room and then very much uncaring after finding out bodies.

[serverwolf]

well, i belive in the white text that was about "rosa unlocked the door to the chapel, the servents witnesed it" (i dont think it was 'magic' i can explain why i think like that but its too hard for me to say it in english)

also, rosa went to the sleeping room to get the key for the chapel. i think it kind of usless if she did that kind of 'act'.
you might say that she did it so that the kids will wake up from her noisyness but that what make it ilogical for me.
rosa couldn't know who will wake up, and by 'chance' it was battler (and he was so dizzy that he fell asleep right away)
i dont think a 'criminal' will rely on some dumb-luck.

also i think that there was this knox about chances and accidents.... cant remember.

about the next riddel, i will ignore jessica and kanon's case becuse it way to easy. its not even a closed room case. so in the secound riddel its gonna be kanon's illusion.

-edit-
UsagiTenpura im talking about the 2EP here becuse no one actully enter the EP2 thread anymore and i didnt read EP7 yet so i dont want to enter the spoiler thread. (and i use spoilers from other EP too)
also, about rosa not noticing: she checked if it was locked or not, it was locked.

[einhorn303]

Well, even if later episodes fail as a game, they'll still be incredibly interesting as a story.

[LyricalAura]

In the case that the door was always unlocked, you can draw some interesting conclusions from the presence of the gold bars. Either:

(A) the culprit left the gold bars alone because they don't care about money, or
(B) the bars were placed in the chapel after the culprit left, meaning that at least one person was fooled into thinking the victims were still alive.

[serverwolf]

if you take into consideration that 3 gold bars are 2 more gold bars then kruss know of.
then the 3 gold bars are actully from the golden land.
the only one who know about it (i guess it the -only- one) is 'beatrice' -the culrpit-

[AuraTwilight]

There's no guarantee that "Beatrice" is the only one who knows about the gold, and even if she was, it still wouldn't mean she was the culprit. The fact that Krauss has atleast one bar of gold proves that not all the gold is locked up with the rest; is there a Red saying that Krauss's bar is the only one released from Kinzo's cache?

[Will Wright]

There's no guarantee that "Beatrice" is the only one who knows about the gold, and even if she was, it still wouldn't mean she was the culprit. The fact that Krauss has atleast one bar of gold proves that not all the gold is locked up with the rest; is there a Red saying that Krauss's bar is the only one released from Kinzo's cache?

If you want to go insane, might as well go all the way. Is there a red saying that Krauss' bar was release from Kinzo's cache at all?

Oh yes I went there.

[serverwolf]

well kinzo showed and gave 1 golden bar to what-his-name and that person's gold found itself in krauss hands. it was said in couple of episodes. its white text. there is no red about it, there is no guarante of it.
if you dont belive this white text... .... idk... nvm.

also, 'beatrice' is just a title used by the true culrpit. we all pretty much know that a witch named beatrice is an illusion.
also 'she' is obviusly the culrpit... that's what the game is about no? finding out who is 'beatrice'....

and finaly i said so my self, i have no idea if 'beatrice' is the only one who knows where the gold is. i guess its like that becuse every one there is pretty much need a huge amout of money, and quick.

[AuraTwilight]

I would've went there myself if the conversation progressed to that point. I'm under no illusions that Krauss necessarily found a gold ingot at ALL. Why the hell didn't he pawn that shit off to pay for his massive debts? Why has it never been mentioned after this point? Who has a room with literally nothing in it but a single table and an ingot with a cloth on it and absolutely no other furniture or decorum? I mean, what the fuck?

It's not the white text that's the problem, either. Did that guy test every bar? How do we know that guy wasn't a confidant of Kinzo's that lied for him?

Also, you're making a fallacy. Just because Beatrice takes credit for the murders doesn't mean the culprit is Beatrice; after all, Beatrice is also claiming to be a witch. How do we know she's not taking the fall for someone else through some martyr complex? How do we know someone isn't just using the Beatrice legend to do some murders, though they themselves do not claim to be Beatrice?

[delita-umw-]

If we're gonna go there, why not just ask is there even a red stating that Krauss really found a gold ingot at all? Can you really trust that scene!?

edit: Serverwolf, I don't know if you've been following any of the more recent theories, but there's a general understanding that it's almost impossible for whoever possesses the title of Beatrice to be the true culprit.

[AuraTwilight]

That's essentially what I'm questioning. That scene only exists to get the reader to accept that the gold exists early on in the story, but we have other scenes and reds now proving the existence of the gold. Whether or not that particular scene is true, though, can change the face on a bunch of very critical questions.

[serverwolf]

I would've went there myself if the conversation progressed to that point. I'm under no illusions that Krauss necessarily found a gold ingot at ALL. Why the hell didn't he pawn that shit off to pay for his massive debts? Why has it never been mentioned after this point? Who has a room with literally nothing in it but a single table and an ingot with a cloth on it and absolutely no other furniture or decorum? I mean, what the fuck?

It's not the white text that's the problem, either. Did that guy test every bar? How do we know that guy wasn't a confidant of Kinzo's that lied for him?

Also, you're making a fallacy. Just because Beatrice takes credit for the murders doesn't mean the culprit is Beatrice; after all, Beatrice is also claiming to be a witch. How do we know she's not taking the fall for someone else through some martyr complex? How do we know someone isn't just using the Beatrice legend to do some murders, though they themselves do not claim to be Beatrice?

well i have no idea why kruss didnt use that gold... maybe becuse it rais rumors? idk...

about the gold here lmbdadelta's red :This mountain of gold is the real thing. All of the ingots piled up here are real, pure gold! There are absolutely no tricks such as replicas or fakes!! of course she talk about the gold in the golden land and not the gold kruss have. but i dont think kinzo would make 1 bar of fake gold, give it to what-his-name so that more unknow years kruss will use his skills to get the fake gold...

about 'beatrice' i think you kinda overreacting here... i ment the killer, the culrpit.
the culrpit use beatrice name so i call him\her beatrice... O.O am i wrong?

-edit- btw i think in EP5 kruss gold showed up again. not sure...

[Will Wright]

I was implying that Krauss' gold was the real gold. As in 'HE ALREADY FOUND THE GOLD NOW HE IS KILLING EVERYONE SO HE CAN HAVE IT FOR HIMSELF' which would make zero sense. But it would be something worth watching.

[delita-umw-]

@serverwolf: But the one who claims to be Beatrice pretty much has no motivation to be the killer. Theres the entire scene with Virgillia and Battler to back that up. So what we can draw from this is either "Beatrice" is at best an accomplice/someone drawn into the plot to murder or is trying to cover up for someone else. If you're referring to the true culprit who is most likely manipulating "Beatrice" or otherwise using the legend of Beatrice, why not just call them the culprit?

@aura: I was actually just joking about not being able to trust that scene, but you raise a fair point, in the same sense that I don't think Shannon and George actually meet up every game to talk about their lovely future together. If so though, what are you suggesting takes place? I have enough trust in Ryukishi to believe that a meeting between Natsuhi and Krauss takes place, but if its not for the gold ingot, then what?

I guess it could be a scene using the gold as a metaphor for a strategy meeting on how they will deceive the rest of the family could work. Any other thoughts?

[Judoh]

I was implying that Krauss' gold was the real gold. As in 'HE ALREADY FOUND THE GOLD NOW HE IS KILLING EVERYONE SO HE CAN HAVE IT FOR HIMSELF' which would make zero sense. But it would be something worth watching.

I just don't get why you like Krauss Culprit so much. I've never seen anything substantial come from it at all. In fact he dies just about as often as Natsuhi does.

But as a comedy theory...

[delita-umw-]

Krauss secretly finds the gold and kill everyone in order to fulfill his ultimate fantasy....MAID-IN-HEAVEN!!!

[AuraTwilight]

i dont think kinzo would make 1 bar of fake gold, give it to what-his-name so that more unknow years kruss will use his skills to get the fake gold...

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that we can't discount the possibility that neither events actually happened, at all.


about 'beatrice' i think you kinda overreacting here... i ment the killer, the culrpit.
the culrpit use beatrice name so i call him\her beatrice... O.O am i wrong?

It'd probably be best to just say "The Culprit", since Beatrice is not necessarily the Culprit and we have too many goddamn Beatrices running around in this series as it is.

@aura: I was actually just joking about not being able to trust that scene, but you raise a fair point, in the same sense that I don't think Shannon and George actually meet up every game to talk about their lovely future together. If so though, what are you suggesting takes place? I have enough trust in Ryukishi to believe that a meeting between Natsuhi and Krauss takes place, but if its not for the gold ingot, then what?


Well, assuming Krauss and Natsuhi did meet (and I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here, I don't necessarily doubt that Krauss's ingot exists), they could've been talking about all sort of shit. "Hey, we need to dump the body" or "hey, what happens if the siblings ask" or "Ever notice that we've never seen Shannon or Kanon at the same time?" or "so i herd u like OVA DA CLIFFs..." etc...

Also the Golden Land is the moon, you dolts. The sweetfish river is obviously THE MILKY WAY.

[Cao Ni Ma]

That whole scene was fake because the gold bar was inside a hidden room hth.

[Renall]

It'd probably be best to just say "The Culprit", since Beatrice is not necessarily the Culprit and we have too many goddamn Beatrices running around in this series as it is.Ah yes, I can see it now. A flabbergasted Battler standing before 17 blonde-wig wearers, exasperated and exclaiming:

"Wait wait wait, is anybody here not Beatrice?"

[AuraTwilight]

"Battler-kuuuun~!"

"....George. That better not be your hand on my ass, I swear to fucking god."

[Pikumin]

About the Krauss gold bar thing, what if it was given to him by Yasu? In the second game when "Beatrice" approaches Rosa in the rose garden, she states that "It could have been any of the siblings" that she approached. Based on this, it can be assumed that Yasu tries to enlist the help of one of the siblings(and maybe the rest of the adults later) in each game, in order to help her carry out her plan.

I propose that in the first game, Yasu approached Krauss, and convinced him to play along by offering him the gold, giving him one ingot to prove that they exist.

[AuraTwilight]

But he dies in the First Twilight. What did he help with?

[Kylon99]

... isn't this the EP6 thread? Maybe we should talk about other stuff in the Spoilers and Speculations thread...

EDIT: I'll quote Pikumin over there.

[Will Wright]

I just don't get why you like Krauss Culprit so much. I've never seen anything substantial come from it at all. In fact he dies just about as often as Natsuhi does.

But as a comedy theory...

There is no substance in it whatsoever. I just like Krauss, so I wish that he were the culprit even though there is nothing to back this theory up.

[Pikumin]

But he dies in the First Twilight. What did he help with?

This is where things start to get complicated. My theory is that Yasu never intends for anyone to die, and she just wants people to fake their deaths. However, due to the bad blood between the siblings, and the enormous amount of money involved, the adults actually begin to kill people(and there may be other motives for them to kill each other too, you can speculate forever).

For example, for Krauss' death, I suspect that in the scene with the gold bar he is actually telling Natsuhi about Yasu's plan and how he wants her play along with it too. Proud, easily offended Natsuhi is disgusted with Krauss' lack of pride and his disloyalty to the Ushiromiya family name, they argue, things escalate, and Natsuhi ends up killing him(I'm guessing she shoots him in the face at the dining table, since blood is found there). I know that's a stretch, but we know that on the first night, they weren't getting on well(I also thought she was acting suspiciously calm during the scene when the bodies were found in the shed, and I don't think she is the kind of person who would act this way if anyone other than herself killed her husband).

But wait this is EP6 thread

[serverwolf]

@serverwolf: But the one who claims to be Beatrice pretty much has no motivation to be the killer. Theres the entire scene with Virgillia and Battler to back that up. So what we can draw from this is either "Beatrice" is at best an accomplice/someone drawn into the plot to murder or is trying to cover up for someone else. If you're referring to the true culprit who is most likely manipulating "Beatrice" or otherwise using the legend of Beatrice, why not just call them the culprit?



but if that's true (beatrice is covering for someone) its make even less sense O.O
i mean, beatrice pretty much hints us who it is. i know that if i were to cover for someone, i would shut up about it.
but 'she' wrote EP1 and probebly EP2 too.

(also i think i found something intristing, 'endless witch' is what you call someone who can repetadly do something right? 'beatrice' gained that title only in the 2nd EP!, so the 'endless' part is for the secound vrsion of the stroy <the 2nd truth>. after 'she' wrote the secound Episode she gained the power of an endless creator.)

[Cao Ni Ma]

Beatrice always had the title "Endless" its just that she needs someone to create an Original story first and then she can spin it endlessly into different versions.

[AuraTwilight]

but if that's true (beatrice is covering for someone) its make even less sense O.O
i mean, beatrice pretty much hints us who it is. i know that if i were to cover for someone, i would shut up about it.
but 'she' wrote EP1 and probebly EP2 too.

You say that as if Beatrice hasn't been contradicting herself every step in this story.

[delita-umw-]

Serverwolf, in that situation, you probably would wanna keep it quiet. But look at it another way, if you wanna hide a culprit, isn't a good way to do it also to hide them amongst an entire forest of seemingly guilty people. By writing two stories and prodding fakers to write more stories about the incident, she could easily make it impossible to tell who really did it. From this perspective, do you agree there's merit to the idea?

[UsagiTenpura]

Well before the message from the bottles first appeared none believed it was murders to begin with (except maybe Ange...). So the idea Beatrice is trying to protect someone is somewhat nonsensical to me.

[Renall]

In Ange's 1998, most people still do not believe there were any murders. Only a fringe group (and Ange) believes that. So if the goal was to make everyone believe in murders, that failed. If the goal was to conceal a culprit, that was basically successful anyway (as no one believes there was one, and none of the people who believe it seem interested in figuring it out).

That pretty much narrows down "intended for purpose, effective at that purpose" to the message bottles being an actual message to a person or group of people.

[UsagiTenpura]

You know who's sorta suspicious about that? Nanjo's son.
He claims he doesn't believe it was murder so vehemently yet, I mean, put yourself in his shoes.

Your father dies in an explosion. Explosions are not natural phenomenon but can be accidents, that's fine, but if it was my father I'd want to make sure it was one.

But then he gets a letter, a very suspicious letter he knows wasn't written by his father. He looks it up further and finds what he himself called dirty money.

It feels like he's been told to shut up by someone rather then honestly believing what he claims.

[AuraTwilight]

Or maybe he hates his dad, ruining the family business with his complete lack of any sort of medical training.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Its not Nanjo's fault that he's being manipulated by a witch :(

[Judoh]

Or maybe he hates his dad, ruining the family business with his complete lack of any sort of medical training.

Nice.

But His Dad was retired at that point. So Nanjo Jr. most likely already inherited the clinic before the Rokkenjima accident.

[delita-umw-]

Great guys, thanks a lot. Here we go again with the whole "look at the bigger picture" and "your logic is flawed" business. I don't approve, not one bit!

Also, wouldn't receiving the money instantly ring warnings of gang/yakuza involvement? Even if Nanjo's son believes its all a murder conspiracy contrary to what he says, do you really think he'd say anything about it? What good would come of him saying he believes it was all murder anyway?

[AuraTwilight]

Well, he could atleast fucking mention it to the Ushiromiya family member who's investigating what happened and has absolutely no reason (if not an 100% compelling reason not to) to rat him out to anyone who could hurt him.

I mean, there's being pressured to be quiet, and there's being quiet just to be a dick and fucking over an investigation looking into who killed his own damn father.

[delita-umw-]

It's not like the only way he could be found out is if Ange ratted him out. Besides, what do you think he really expects from Ange's "investigation?" From his point of view, there are several hard facts:
a) his father died in what the police determined was an accident b) following the accident, he received a package of very suspect money c) its been years since the incident and any evidence that would point to a murder that the police could have missed would likely have degraded beyond recovery at this point d) this girl who claims to be the last surviving Ushiromiya (which he can't immediately confirm having never met her before) claims to be trying to investigate the accident with the off hope that it was really a murder

Maybe he's a fatalist or extremely paranoid, but can you really call him a dick for either being on his guard or resigning to the fact that the most likely explanation is the one the police provided?

[UsagiTenpura]

He wouldn't have called the money dirty money or would've been scared to use any of it if he didn't already pretty much guessed it was murder.

You're acting as if that letter and money was a very minor thing.

[delita-umw-]

I think I worded that rather poorly. I never meant to say that he doesn't suspect murder. As you point out, the letter and the money scream murder and if he couldn't see that then he'd be as terrible at connecting the dots as Nanjo was at practicing medicine. My point was that Nanjo jr (w/e the hell his name is) has several reasons to STATE that he believes its an accident.

[AuraTwilight]

And he has many more reasons not to state so.

[delita-umw-]

Really? I guess I fail hard, cause outside of being really driven to find out the truth, I don't see much going for that. What does Nanjo jr. gain by telling Ange what he really thinks about the incident when he already knows she has an opinion on it?

I guess what I've really been trying to say is that Nanjo jr has provided Ange with information she didn't have before even though he states that he believes the entire thing was an accident, so why do you guys think he's so suspicious?

[AuraTwilight]

Because he states it's an accident even though he clearly knows otherwise. Either someone is putting pressure on him to keep quiet, or he's suspicious on his own merit. It's not like there's cameras in the fucking clinic, so there's no harm telling Ange.

[Judoh]

Because he states it's an accident even though he clearly knows otherwise. Either someone is putting pressure on him to keep quiet, or he's suspicious on his own merit. It's not like there's cameras in the fucking clinic, so there's no harm telling Ange.

While you have a point. He also states in that same sentence that he was hounded by the media after the accident. And Ange understands that because she received the same kind of pressure. So Ange doesn't find his resistance to talking to her suspicious at all.

He probably uses the word accident as a defense mechanism because he doesn't like taking interviews. Besides he opened up later didn't he? Why would he tell her anything at all if he was made to keep quiet? He could have called the police or something and forced Ange to leave if he wanted.

[Renall]

Because he states it's an accident even though he clearly knows otherwise. Either someone is putting pressure on him to keep quiet, or he's suspicious on his own merit. It's not like there's cameras in the fucking clinic, so there's no harm telling Ange.Do you think based on his testimony to Ange that he really believes it's an accident? You don't, and I don't either. So I think we agree at least that whatever he says isn't as relevant as his information and his attitude.

But... I think it's a cultural thing. Denial against his own interests to keep everything smoothed over. Why would he do this in front of Ange? Like Judoh said; defense mechanism. He's just used to referring it to that way.

Okonogi dancing around the "incident" may be a similar thing. I imagine Eva didn't like hearing about it.

[Jan-Poo]

I don't think Nanjo's son knows it was a murder, he suspects it, but he relegated this thought inside a closed room in his brain, and that's why he hates talking about it. He doesn't want this thought to poison his mind because he knows he won't get anything from it except anxiety, grief and paranoia. Look at Ange, can you deny it?

Basically he's a wuss, and he's selfish (in his own dumb way). He cares more about living a normal and tranquil life than finding the truth (or becoming rich).

The bank accounts while definitely suspicious don't prove murder. However if the police noticed there's a lot of those things they'd take it seriously...

The real strange thing here is that among 20 or so persons not even one informed the police. Or maybe someone did, but in case two or more were found, I'd expect the police to be competent enough to look for the others.

Actually... this make me think that the police isn't actually covering up a thing. If they did, they'd try to get all those letters and make them disappear.

[Renall]

I still wonder just how much actually wound up in the possession of the police at all, especially the "message bottles."

[Jan-Poo]

Still the wrong thread.

[unsuspectingvisitor]

Do you guys know who place the letter that Erika had found?

[AuraTwilight]

Probably Battler.

[LyricalAura]

Probably Battler.

Nope. The guest room was sealed at the time that Battler's 'corpse' was examined, so until Erika came again and broke the seals, it was absolutely impossible for anyone to go in or out.

It had to be somebody who was in the guesthouse with Erika, probably Kanon. He could have placed the letter before heading to the mansion, although Erika beat him to Battler's room, so the timing is a little wonky.

Alternately someone could have placed it before the rooms were sealed. There were various people roaming around and gathering supplies.

[Kealym]

Ah, so, question - even though it was a retroactive action and thus already wonky, when exactly did Erika kill the fakers?

'Cause I assumed that :
1. Kyrie, Eva, or Natsuhi placed the letter, because Battler can't, and it seemed odd to have someone in the guesthouse do it
2. Erika finds it, goes to mansion, kills some people
3. She was still portrayed as "rushing" immediately to Battler's room because Rule of Drama

But thinking on it, maybe that doesn't make sense. Was it clearly stated when in the timeline her retroactive actions fall?

[AuraTwilight]

Alternately someone could have placed it before the rooms were sealed. There were various people roaming around and gathering supplies.

That was what I was getting at.

But thinking on it, maybe that doesn't make sense. Was it clearly stated when in the timeline her retroactive actions fall?

After she read the letter, I would presume.

[LyricalAura]

She found the letter after she sealed the guesthouse rooms, and it wasn't there when she first came back from killing the victims in the mansion. So the letter had to have been placed in that interval, and neither Battler nor any of the victims could have done it.

[unsuspectingvisitor]

She found the letter after she sealed the guesthouse rooms, and it wasn't there when she first came back from killing the victims in the mansion. So the letter had to have been placed in that interval, and neither Battler nor any of the victims could have done it.

Hmm.... So It seems like only that person could have done it.

[AuraTwilight]

She found the letter after she sealed the guesthouse rooms, and it wasn't there when she first came back from killing the victims in the mansion. So the letter had to have been placed in that interval, and neither Battler nor any of the victims could have done it.

Time-release sticky-tape. :D

[unsuspectingvisitor]

She found the letter after she sealed the guesthouse rooms, and it wasn't there when she first came back from killing the victims in the mansion. So the letter had to have been placed in that interval, and neither Battler nor any of the victims could have done it.

I kinda thinking that the one who place the letter was Yasu since there's a possibility that she left the room next to the cousin room after Erika sealed the window.

hmm... I just thought of a possibility of what happened in Ep6. Maybe Yasu looked at the fakers after she left the room and found out that someone killed them. She went to Battler's room before Erika and found out that he was still alive. Then Yasu help him escape and killed Erika.

[Steven77]

This episode has so many issues that I guess we must just accept and get past such as:

1. Fixing the chain with duct tape... what? Fixing the chain has no precedence in the way "sealed rooms" have been used in this story. Seals are a one-time use sort of thing.

2. How could Erika have retroactively supposedly have committed all these beheadings without Battle the GAME MASTER knowing? That doesn't make sense either, how could he not witness this if it occurred before the guest room incident?

3. So... apparently Shannon+Kanon = 1 person? But there are still two bodies correct? It is my understanding that Kanon was not in either of the rooms at the guest house and did not have to be including when Erika asked about "everyone" since he is not a "person."

Could Kanon (who is not a "person" persay but has a body) could have rescued Battler, gone into the closet, and then committed suicide? Trying to see how this story can work. But it's so wonky.

[jjblue1]

This episode has so many issues that I guess we must just accept and get past such as:

1. Fixing the chain with duct tape... what? Fixing the chain has no precedence in the way "sealed rooms" have been used in this story. Seals are a one-time use sort of thing.

2. How could Erika have retroactively supposedly have committed all these beheadings without Battle the GAME MASTER knowing? That doesn't make sense either, how could he not witness this if it occurred before the guest room incident?

3. So... apparently Shannon+Kanon = 1 person? But there are still two bodies correct? It is my understanding that Kanon was not in either of the rooms at the guest house and did not have to be including when Erika asked about "everyone" since he is not a "person."

Could Kanon (who is not a "person" persay but has a body) could have rescued Battler, gone into the closet, and then committed suicide? Trying to see how this story can work. But it's so wonky.

2 When we read Umineko we picture in our mind that the pieces were moving around and/or that they were witnessing the pieces moving around whatever they did.
Actually it's more like Erika and Battler are sitting somewhere and Erika says what she'll do and Battler will have to answer if the setting allows her to do it and which consequences her actions can have on the setting.

So, in this case Erika likely just said 'I'll check the corpses' and since Battler put no limits to what she could do to check them she was free to do everything to them. Since he didn't even ask clarifications about how she was going to check them and the 'checking' happened in her mind only he couldn't know what she did.
Likely, his only obligation might have been to provide details should she have noticed something about the 'corpses' or should she ask something about them.
For example had she said 'I'll search in their pockets' he likely should have provided the content of said pockets.

To make matters even more complicate although Battler is the GM he's not the judge of the game, that's Lambda (and Dlanor in a fashion).

In a normal RP game the GM is the judge so if you say first 'I'll check the corpses' and later 'saying I checked them I also meant to make sure they couldn't walk around I chopped their head' he could reject your interpretation of your words.

Battler can't so when he's told 'yeah, 'checking the corpses can also include chopping their head off'' he has only himself to blame because he hadn't asked for details about what Erika was going to do, he hadn't figured out she could use that sentence to mean that, he hadn't put restrictions on Erika's actions like saying 'you can check the corpses but if you try to harm them someone will stop you'.

However people speculated that Battler might have wanted to create a logic error to push Beato to remember.

3 Likely there's no second body.
Beato's explanation 'Kanon left the room with magic and with magic freed Battler and then disappeared' is the magic explanation not what really had happened.
Beato was supposed to create a riddle that Erika couldn't solve not to tell her what had really happened.
Since Shannon's body is trapped in a room, Kanon's body can't exist in the other room so he can't be trapped into it. Erika however doesn't know the premise so the fact that Kanon isn't trapped in the room when she believed he was for her automatically make possible that Kanon left the room and freed Battler.
To solve the riddle she has to figure that Kanon doesn't exist and therefore, due to this, he never left because he never was in to begin with.
Once she solves this it becomes obvious Kanon couldn't free Battler so the magic explanation is a complete lie.
Either Battler is still trapped in the room (let's say under the bed and not in the closet as she thought) or well, something else allowed Battler to escape, but not Kanon.

The riddles in EP 6 are mostly abstract, so you don't have to think in terms of real bodies and real actions but in terms of riddles based on worldplays and tricks.

[AuraTwilight]

1. Fixing the chain with duct tape... what? Fixing the chain has no precedence in the way "sealed rooms" have been used in this story. Seals are a one-time use sort of thing.


Erika did something unprecedented. Nothing wrong with that.

2. How could Erika have retroactively supposedly have committed all these beheadings without Battle the GAME MASTER knowing? That doesn't make sense either, how could he not witness this if it occurred before the guest room incident?

It is implied that Battler was never tricked, and that he actually tricked Erika and everyone else into putting him in danger as part of his plan to revive Beatrice.

3. So... apparently Shannon+Kanon = 1 person? But there are still two bodies correct? It is my understanding that Kanon was not in either of the rooms at the guest house and did not have to be including when Erika asked about "everyone" since he is not a "person."

Could Kanon (who is not a "person" persay but has a body) could have rescued Battler, gone into the closet, and then committed suicide? Trying to see how this story can work. But it's so wonky.

Kanon and Shannon share a body. They are synonymous. The trick is that SHANNON left, becoming Kanon, went and saved Battler, and then escaped Erika's search by becoming Shannon again (or perhaps killing himself or something) so that Kanon "wasn't in the room".

[Steven77]

Thanks for the replies. Partway into ch. 7, oh man!!


So, in this case Erika likely just said 'I'll check the corpses' and since Battler put no limits to what she could do to check them she was free to do everything to them. Since he didn't even ask clarifications about how she was going to check them and the 'checking' happened in her mind only he couldn't know what she did.
Likely, his only obligation might have been to provide details should she have noticed something about the 'corpses' or should she ask something about them.
For example had she said 'I'll search in their pockets' he likely should have provided the content of said pockets.


Ah, I see. I guess I'm still trying to reason out exactly how Battler was saved, but perhaps that will be revealed in the future.

[unsuspectingvisitor]

I am kinda wandered about something.

When did the love duel happened ?

[AuraTwilight]

The time of the tragedy.

[unsuspectingvisitor]

The time of the tragedy.

I don't think that's possible some reason.

The game was suspended after that logic error. So how was it possible that it happened during the tragedy?

[AuraTwilight]

The Love Duel is a metaphor for the struggle she has within herself about which love to go with, and her actions during October 5th are her attempts to revolve this. You're taking the fantasy mechanics too literally.

[LyricalAura]

I don't think that's possible some reason.

The game was suspended after that logic error. So how was it possible that it happened during the tragedy?

The game board was suspended after the logic error, but the duel happened in the fantasy layer. In previous games, fantasy layer time was parallel to board time, but in this specific game, the fantasy layer acts like the usual meta layer, so its time flow is independent. The duel is portrayed as happening after the logic error in fantasy-time, but Kanon leaves to save Battler before the logic error in board-time, so the best way to think of it is probably that the board was rewound slightly as a result of the duel.

[unsuspectingvisitor]

Oh right fantasy scene I forgot. But I think it doesn't make sense if that conflict in yasu's mind happened at that family conference. I got the impression that it happened 2 years ago.

On another note, I noticed that the love duel was similar to ep7 confession. With the battler not present and such.

[AuraTwilight]

It's essentially something she does all the time. Beatrice watches as Shannon and Kanon duke it out pretty much...hell, every DAY for all we know. But there's never any conclusion, and then Battler shows up, so Beatrice becomes a viable option. Cue tragedy.

[Silverkun]

I have a theory for how Kanon saved Battler. However, as Battler said, it is indeed a "nasty trick that would make people complain about the fact that this can't be considered Mystery genre anymore." But you have to remember that Umineko runs on twisted logic, so it shouldn't be a huge surprise.

The reasoning that this theory hinges on is the idea that while anything said in Red is a fact, it depends on the speaker's interpretation of the words. If two different people said you are incompetent about the same person, one of them might choke on the words and one might succeed in saying it, simply because the two have different interpretations of the word "incompetent." The target of the Red Truth might be incompetent according to one interpretation, and not according to the other.

At the time that Beatrice reconfigured the logic of the game, there was a rule that you can't use the logic of "they went through the window that wasn't sealed." In other words, Beatrice's logic does not use that reasoning, and therefore she got Kanon out of the room without violating the rule that "everyone other than Battler is already in one of the two rooms, and nothing physical could have left those two rooms in the time frame between when they were shown to enter and the time of the logic error."

You get it? "Nothing physical could have left." So if it's not something physical, it could leave the rooms.

Even if he doesn't have a body, he has a personality, so you can define the word "person" to include him if you want. In that case, you can use the logic that "Kanon was in the closed room of the logic error when Battler left" and therefore satisfy the condition that "someone must take Battler's place."

Following that, it's necessary for it to become possible for Kanon to leave the room on his own after resolving the logic error, because Beatrice said he no longer exists in the room. If he's not something physical, this not only becomes possible, but extremely easy.

It may seem like shit logic to most, but I think it's pretty cool. After all, because of this, Kanon "exists." Also, it may be irrelevant, but that "Battle Field" music that played when Kanon was going to save Battler is one of my favorite songs in Umineko.

[Drifloon]

I've been replaying the first seven episodes in preparation for the E8 translation and there is something in E6 that really, really confuses me. I'm posting this here in hopes that someone can explain this to me, because I seriously can't make any sense of it.

What on earth is the significance of Ange's parts in E6? I don't even understand the form that they're supposed to be taking or how they're even happening, much less how I'm supposed to interpret them.

So first off, Ange is meeting with Hachijo, but this isn't actually happening in 1998, is it? Because she still has memories of the things that happened after that, and she feels like this is something that didn't really happen. So is it just an illusion in the meta-world that has been made to look like 1998 by Featherine? If so, then how come in the epilogue, the story in 1998 seems to continue after Ange has read the story to Hachijo, with Amakusa's phone call and such? That seems to imply this actually did happen in 1998, but the rest of the story implies otherwise.

Then there is the significance of the 'message bottle forgeries'. I can kind of see how Banquet and Alliance could have been written by Beatrice and found by Hachijo, since they are possible consequences of Beatrice's gambit (if we disregard the meta world). But how could she even have a message bottle describing Lambdadelta's messed up game? There's no way the human Beatrice in 1986 could have thought of things like Erika appearing and helping Battler solve the epitaph. In fact it's hard to imagine how E5 could even be converted into something that could be considered a possible truth of Rokkenjima-Prime, considering all the references Erika keeps making to the meta-world with the detective's authority and such.

Next, there's the parts where Ange and Featherine are in the meta-world...what on earth is going on there? It seems to be the same Ange as the one talking to Hachijo in 1998 (whether that 1998 is real or not), but I don't understand the dimension it's taking place in. How can the people in the other parts of the story, like Virgilia and the 'chick Beatrice' interact with it, when Ange is supposed to be reading about them? What exactly is Ange even reading? Hachijo says she wrote it, but Featherine doesn't seem to know what's going to happen in the story, so it's like Ange is reading something she doesn't know. I don't understand what the contents of the 'Dawn' message bottle actually are. And what's up with the parts after Featherine reveals that she is a witch but Ange and Amakusa are shown talking to human Hachijo about the story? Why is it switching between these two apparently separate planes but telling the story in a seemingly continuous manner?

Finally, is the meta world actually included in the bottles? It seems hard to imagine that it is, because that would mean that the parts with Ange are also included, and 1998's Ange would surely be pretty freaked out if she read the 'Alliance' bottle and found that it described the events of her life in perfect detail when it was written by someone she had no knowledge of. Not to mention that the Ange talking to Hachijo seems to have knowledge of meta-events that actually happened to her, like giving Sakutaro to Maria in the Golden Land. And if the Ange talking to Featherine is the same person (which I still can't figure out), then she even says she doesn't know Battler is the Game Master, implying that the 'End' message bottle definitely didn't include the meta world, or at least not the epilogue.

So it seems like the bottles don't contain the meta world, but there seems to be evidence to the contrary. Ange talking to Hachijo says that there was a witch called Featherine in the 'Dawn' message bottle, so does that mean she was reading to Hachijo about herself reading to Featherine? How does that work? But then, what would Dawn even be without the meta world? 'Six people play dead, Erika chops five of their heads off, goes into Battler's room and finds Shannon in the closet'? Hardly a coherent story, so it seems like Dawn does contain the meta world, but as I described above, that seems to raise all sorts of contradictions.

As you can probably tell from this, I'm really confused about this part of E6, so could someone please try and clear up my confusion? I'm probably missing something obvious.

[AuraTwilight]

So first off, Ange is meeting with Hachijo, but this isn't actually happening in 1998, is it? Because she still has memories of the things that happened after that, and she feels like this is something that didn't really happen. So is it just an illusion in the meta-world that has been made to look like 1998 by Featherine? If so, then how come in the epilogue, the story in 1998 seems to continue after Ange has read the story to Hachijo, with Amakusa's phone call and such? That seems to imply this actually did happen in 1998, but the rest of the story implies otherwise.

Keep in mind that 1998 Ange, and Meta-ANGE, contain different knowledge-bases in these scenes. There's two layers here, not one. However, Ange is correct in that she didn't meet Hachijou in her original journey. This is an alternate 1998.

Then there is the significance of the 'message bottle forgeries'. I can kind of see how Banquet and Alliance could have been written by Beatrice and found by Hachijo, since they are possible consequences of Beatrice's gambit (if we disregard the meta world). But how could she even have a message bottle describing Lambdadelta's messed up game? There's no way the human Beatrice in 1986 could have thought of things like Erika appearing and helping Battler solve the epitaph. In fact it's hard to imagine how E5 could even be converted into something that could be considered a possible truth of Rokkenjima-Prime, considering all the references Erika keeps making to the meta-world with the detective's authority and such.


The message bottles and the forgeries probably do not have all the Meta-World stuff that we read. Ange, for instance, doesn't mention that EP5 was "prematurely ended" or anything.

Also, keep in mind Beatrice only wrote Legend and Alliance. Hachijou is claiming credit for Episodes 3 and onwards.

Next, there's the parts where Ange and Featherine are in the meta-world...what on earth is going on there? It seems to be the same Ange as the one talking to Hachijo in 1998 (whether that 1998 is real or not), but I don't understand the dimension it's taking place in. How can the people in the other parts of the story, like Virgilia and the 'chick Beatrice' interact with it, when Ange is supposed to be reading about them? What exactly is Ange even reading? Hachijo says she wrote it, but Featherine doesn't seem to know what's going to happen in the story, so it's like Ange is reading something she doesn't know. I don't understand what the contents of the 'Dawn' message bottle actually are. And what's up with the parts after Featherine reveals that she is a witch but Ange and Amakusa are shown talking to human Hachijo about the story? Why is it switching between these two apparently separate planes but telling the story in a seemingly continuous manner?


In one layer, Ange, Hachijou, and Amakusa are reading her rough draft, and she is pretending to be as ignorant as they are as a reading exercise so they come up with their own interpretations instead of asking her for answers.

In another layer, Featherine and ANGE are reading, mystically, about something that is pretty much happening right there. For all we know, the text is magically changing as things are influenced, or Ange even reads about herself talking to Virgilia and Beatrice, but doesn't mind the paradox because ANGE is a witch.

Keep in mind that the "Meta" in "Meta-World" can be read as "Metaphorical." This isn't the first time that unreal things like thoughts and words have had physical existences.

Finally, is the meta world actually included in the bottles? It seems hard to imagine that it is, because that would mean that the parts with Ange are also included, and 1998's Ange would surely be pretty freaked out if she read the 'Alliance' bottle and found that it described the events of her life in perfect detail when it was written by someone she had no knowledge of. Not to mention that the Ange talking to Hachijo seems to have knowledge of meta-events that actually happened to her, like giving Sakutaro to Maria in the Golden Land. And if the Ange talking to Featherine is the same person (which I still can't figure out), then she even says she doesn't know Battler is the Game Master, implying that the 'End' message bottle definitely didn't include the meta world, or at least not the epilogue.

It does not seem like the Meta World is in the stories.

So it seems like the bottles don't contain the meta world, but there seems to be evidence to the contrary. Ange talking to Hachijo says that there was a witch called Featherine in the 'Dawn' message bottle, so does that mean she was reading to Hachijo about herself reading to Featherine? How does that work? But then, what would Dawn even be without the meta world? 'Six people play dead, Erika chops five of their heads off, goes into Battler's room and finds Shannon in the closet'? Hardly a coherent story, so it seems like Dawn does contain the meta world, but as I described above, that seems to raise all sorts of contradictions.

Bear in mind, what we read and what Ange read ARE NOT NECESSARILY THE SAME THING, and EP6 was cut off early, just like EP5 was. Perhaps there was a board explanation for what happened because there was no "Logic Error accusation" in the actual text (what Erika did was equivalent to a reader calling an author out on a plothole) so Ange saw the rest of Battler's plan for the Gameboard. Perhaps that plan involved a witch named Featherine, or perhaps the Featherine character was like a narrator.

[Drifloon]

Thank you for explaining, I think I just about understand it now. It sure would be interesting if we could somehow see how Battler wanted E6 to play out like Ange apparently did.

One question, though: if the message bottles don't contain the meta-world, why do Ange, Amakusa and Hachijo talk about the chick-Beato and how she can potentially become the former Beato in one scene? Isn't that part of the meta-world plotline? Also, another scene suggests that Ange and Amakusa read about the love trial, but isn't the meta-world also necessary to understand that, since Game Master Battler and chick-Beato are involved?

[AuraTwilight]

The Meta-World and the Fantasy/Magic scenes are not the same thing, mind you.

[UsagiTenpura]

I've been thinking lately that this episodes makes a lot of sense if you turn Battler into Sayo and Erika into George - the whole wedding ring trap while you are stuck in a "logic error" seems to explain a large part of Sayo's problems and hopes in relation with Battler.

It would be exactly in the form it was meant to be from the start.

[ErenselTheJester]

I've been replaying the first seven episodes in preparation for the E8 translation and there is something in E6 that really, really confuses me. I'm posting this here in hopes that someone can explain this to me, because I seriously can't make any sense of it.

What on earth is the significance of Ange's parts in E6? I don't even understand the form that they're supposed to be taking or how they're even happening, much less how I'm supposed to interpret them.

So first off, Ange is meeting with Hachijo, but this isn't actually happening in 1998, is it? Because she still has memories of the things that happened after that, and she feels like this is something that didn't really happen. So is it just an illusion in the meta-world that has been made to look like 1998 by Featherine? If so, then how come in the epilogue, the story in 1998 seems to continue after Ange has read the story to Hachijo, with Amakusa's phone call and such? That seems to imply this actually did happen in 1998, but the rest of the story implies otherwise.

Then there is the significance of the 'message bottle forgeries'. I can kind of see how Banquet and Alliance could have been written by Beatrice and found by Hachijo, since they are possible consequences of Beatrice's gambit (if we disregard the meta world). But how could she even have a message bottle describing Lambdadelta's messed up game? There's no way the human Beatrice in 1986 could have thought of things like Erika appearing and helping Battler solve the epitaph. In fact it's hard to imagine how E5 could even be converted into something that could be considered a possible truth of Rokkenjima-Prime, considering all the references Erika keeps making to the meta-world with the detective's authority and such.

Next, there's the parts where Ange and Featherine are in the meta-world...what on earth is going on there? It seems to be the same Ange as the one talking to Hachijo in 1998 (whether that 1998 is real or not), but I don't understand the dimension it's taking place in. How can the people in the other parts of the story, like Virgilia and the 'chick Beatrice' interact with it, when Ange is supposed to be reading about them? What exactly is Ange even reading? Hachijo says she wrote it, but Featherine doesn't seem to know what's going to happen in the story, so it's like Ange is reading something she doesn't know. I don't understand what the contents of the 'Dawn' message bottle actually are. And what's up with the parts after Featherine reveals that she is a witch but Ange and Amakusa are shown talking to human Hachijo about the story? Why is it switching between these two apparently separate planes but telling the story in a seemingly continuous manner?

Finally, is the meta world actually included in the bottles? It seems hard to imagine that it is, because that would mean that the parts with Ange are also included, and 1998's Ange would surely be pretty freaked out if she read the 'Alliance' bottle and found that it described the events of her life in perfect detail when it was written by someone she had no knowledge of. Not to mention that the Ange talking to Hachijo seems to have knowledge of meta-events that actually happened to her, like giving Sakutaro to Maria in the Golden Land. And if the Ange talking to Featherine is the same person (which I still can't figure out), then she even says she doesn't know Battler is the Game Master, implying that the 'End' message bottle definitely didn't include the meta world, or at least not the epilogue.

So it seems like the bottles don't contain the meta world, but there seems to be evidence to the contrary. Ange talking to Hachijo says that there was a witch called Featherine in the 'Dawn' message bottle, so does that mean she was reading to Hachijo about herself reading to Featherine? How does that work? But then, what would Dawn even be without the meta world? 'Six people play dead, Erika chops five of their heads off, goes into Battler's room and finds Shannon in the closet'? Hardly a coherent story, so it seems like Dawn does contain the meta world, but as I described above, that seems to raise all sorts of contradictions.

As you can probably tell from this, I'm really confused about this part of E6, so could someone please try and clear up my confusion? I'm probably missing something obvious.

Kanon is counted as a real, physical person in the game. The trick isn't how Kanon got out, its Erika's perception of Kanon that's the key. In which case, you have to ask "Is Erika still the detective of the game? If not, then how valid is her point of view?"

[AuraTwilight]

Kanon is counted as a real, physical person in the game.

This is actually pretty arguable, considering the final reds of the Episode.

[ErenselTheJester]

This is actually pretty arguable, considering the final reds of the Episode.

That's why I said that it depends on Erika's perception of Kanon because she counted him as a real person during her period as a detective and he was added in reds concerning the separation of the groups into the rooms as such.

[Drifloon]

Um, Kanon was never stated in red to be in a different position to Shannon, if that's what you're trying to say.

It was only said that Shannon was in the next room over and 'everyone else' was in the cousin's room.

[ErenselTheJester]

Um, Kanon was never stated in red to be in a different position to Shannon, if that's what you're trying to say.

It was only said that Shannon was in the next room over and 'everyone else' was in the cousin's room.

That would also include Kanon because Erika believes Kanon is a real person. But again, that depends on whether Erika still counts as a detective or not. Personally, I think since "everyone else" was pretty ambiguous, Kanon could have very well been outside the cousin's room.

[AuraTwilight]

The trick was that Kanon was never technically anywhere, since he is Shannon. It's a semantic argument.

[unsuspectingvisitor]

There's something about the wedding in Ep6 that i just understood. Battler and Beatrice change role right? then It was Beatrice that was married to Erika. Let's say Erika represents George while Beatrice is Battler.

If Beatrice remembered the promise and saved Battler in that fantasy scene. Does it mean Battler remembered the promise in what you called "Rokkenjima prime" and saved Beatrice?

[UsagiTenpura]

Yeah that's also what I think.
Erika traps Battler with a ring./George traps Shannon with a ring.
And if you want speculation...
Battler fakes the first twilight./Beatrice fakes the fight twilight.
Erika really murders them./George really murders them.
Battler is stuck in a closed room and Erika is dangerously coming for him./Beatrice is stuck on Rokkenjima and George is dangerously coming for her.
The Shkanon trick is used to save Battler from Erika./The Shkanon trick is used to save Shannon from George.
Erika was trying to get the Gamemaster title and ring from Battler./George was trying to get the Ushiromiya heir title and ring from Shannon.
Battler kills Erika./Beatrice kills George.

[unsuspectingvisitor]

Yeah that's also what I think.
Erika traps Battler with a ring./George traps Shannon with a ring.
And if you want speculation...
Battler fakes the first twilight./Beatrice fakes the fight twilight.
Erika really murders them./George really murders them.
Battler is stuck in a closed room and Erika is dangerously coming for him./Beatrice is stuck on Rokkenjima and George is dangerously coming for her.
The Shkanon trick is used to save Battler from Erika./The Shkanon trick is used to save Shannon from George.
Erika was trying to get the Gamemaster title and ring from Battler./George was trying to get the Ushiromiya heir title and ring from Shannon.
Battler kills Erika./Beatrice kills George.

SO does that mean George is the culprit?

[AuraTwilight]

It's possible.

[unsuspectingvisitor]

Battler said he was going to prove that he understood everything. Maybe he did that by telling us what the culprit is capable of without revealing his identity.

[AuraTwilight]

Possible, but since the wording is that he would prove he understood "Beato's game", I would say that he demonstrated this through performing and understanding Beatrice's magic, reviving her through deception and desperation.

[unsuspectingvisitor]

You're right. Maybe he was only talking about "Beatrice's game" or should i say the "Epitaph murder game".

[AuraTwilight]

The context given was "Beatrice's Game" as in the gameboards. Anything like the "Epitaph murder game" isn't supported enough to be viable.

[unsuspectingvisitor]

The context given was "Beatrice's Game" as in the gameboards. Anything like the "Epitaph murder game" isn't supported enough to be viable.

I not sure about that. Not every gameboard was Beatrice's game. Only 2 was confirm Ep1 and Ep2 gameboards.

But there's a hint that he was taking about the "Epitapt murder game". He showed us that the first twilight victim was faking their deaths and Ep6 gameboard was the only game that explicitly told us that the first twilight murder was fake.

[AuraTwilight]

Well, they're all "Beatrice's game" because she created the gameboard and the rules and the setting and the story. It's like how Dungeons and Dragons is "Gary Gygax's game" even though he doesn't personally run every game session played across the world.

[unsuspectingvisitor]

Well, they're all "Beatrice's game" because she created the gameboard and the rules and the setting and the story. It's like how Dungeons and Dragons is "Gary Gygax's game" even though he doesn't personally run every game session played across the world.

But the whole focal point of every Game board was the "Everyone died" theme that caused by Beatrice and her "Epitapt murder game".

Wait.. i think were on the same page here.

[AuraTwilight]

IS it the focal point? We can't honestly say that for sure.

Anyway, the point isn't about the CONTENT so much about the construction and execution. Battler isn't demonstrating he knows the truth, here (how could he, when he's running a game with Erika in it?) he's running a game from Beatrice's point of view to demonstrate that he understands HER and how her game works. That's more important.

[unsuspectingvisitor]

Well you're right about that. I don't have any rebuttal for that so i'll stop now.

I am finally done with EP6 and now on to the next EP.

[Toku]

Would anyone be willing to share theories on the logic error? I'm stuck, I just don't see how it's even possible...

[AuraTwilight]

What do you mean? There's a lot of parts to the Logic Error subject, what specifically is giving you trouble? Like, how Beatrice solved it?

[Toku]

Yeah. I understand the theory with the window, but Kanon wasn't even in that room. And despite that, Beatrice's logic not only allows Kanon to leave the room in the guesthouse, but to also free Battler and then escape himself, leaving no one in the room. The door must be used in some way, in order to escape. There should be no method of getting around that... And yet, the chain lock absolutely must be set, and it must be set from the inside. And there's no one in the room?

Are they busting holes in the walls, or what? Technically, I think that would bypass the duct tape seals, but...

[AuraTwilight]

The trick is that Kanon WAS in the room with the window...by virtue of being Shannon. As 'Kanon', she runs and saves Battler, sets the chain, and hides. Then she becomes 'Shannon' so that 'Kanon does not exist in this room'.

[Toku]

The trick is that Kanon WAS in the room with the window...by virtue of being Shannon. As 'Kanon', she runs and saves Battler, sets the chain, and hides. Then she becomes 'Shannon' so that 'Kanon does not exist in this room'.

It'd be nice if it was that easy. However, that window can't be used, right? Even if it's Shannon. At the time that Beato reconfigured the logic, the use of that window was still forbidden.

[LyricalAura]

It'd be nice if it was that easy. However, that window can't be used, right? Even if it's Shannon. At the time that Beato reconfigured the logic, the use of that window was still forbidden.

But the thing that was actually forbidden was "the use of blue truths involving the window." Beato cleverly got around it by creating a mystery to reverse the burden of proof, so that it became Erika's responsibility to create blue truths instead of hers.

[Toku]

I could try and argue against this by saying that all people can only use their own names, but there's the possibility that "people" there doesn't refer to bodies but rather to personalities. At a glance, I don't think there's a red that denies that... And while I had thought that Beato actually denied the possibility of anyone being in the room after all is said and done, she only denied the possibility that Kanon is inside...

Not only that, but since it's a fact that Kanon went in, let Battler out, and set the chain lock behind him, he could not physically leave the room (the red that Beato used prevented anyone else from entering or leaving the room)... So it simply has to be referring to personalities, as far as I can tell.

And it wasn't said in red that Kanon is actually in the cousins' room in the guesthouse, only that "everyone else" is. How tricky.

...I had been hoping for a more satisfying answer, but this is acceptable.

One last thing though. The hint "without love, it cannot be seen" was supposed to refer to this solution, but how does that work? I don't see anything here that refers to love...

[AuraTwilight]

I could try and argue against this by saying that all people can only use their own names, but there's the possibility that "people" there doesn't refer to bodies but rather to personalities. At a glance, I don't think there's a red that denies that... And while I had thought that Beato actually denied the possibility of anyone being in the room after all is said and done, she only denied the possibility that Kanon is inside...

there's no problem with that because, being the same person, 'Sayo' (or whatever you want to call her) owns the names of Shannon AND Kanon.


Not only that, but since it's a fact that Kanon went in, let Battler out, and set the chain lock behind him, he could not physically leave the room (the red that Beato used prevented anyone else from entering or leaving the room)... So it simply has to be referring to personalities, as far as I can tell.


It's also possible Kanon ceased existing in the room by dying, of course.

One last thing though. The hint "without love, it cannot be seen" was supposed to refer to this solution, but how does that work? I don't see anything here that refers to love...

It requires understanding the true nature of Beatrice's heart. Namely, that she, Shannon, and Kanon are the same individual.

[Captain Bluebeard]

Even more than that, it requires love to see magic. Without love, it's nothing more than a trick, it's just one person acting the parts of two, and that wouldn't work here, would it?

[RandomAvatarFan]

I just started reading this. I only just got to Rokkenjima, and not a line further.
However I am beginning to think a bit differently

My interpretation of "new" Beatrice and what she's trying to tell us.
However, I think this is a pretty big clue for me. Just as Bern said back in EP1, Beatrice is a personification of the rules. To Battler who had a very little understanding of these rules in the beginning, she was a terrifying person who took joy in killing people. Now that he understands all the rules and "who Beatrice is" she's portrayed as very child like. This is exactly what Battler had wanted all along. Back in EP5, he keeps asking "what was she thinking?" Well, now we get to see this based on his understanding. We'll never be able to see that menacing troll face again, because we too will soon understand what Beatrice was thinking.

I'm intrigued by the entire "Forgery" concept. Since EP4, the entire message bottle became an enigma, and now it's even more so. I assumed everything was on different kakera, but this says something different: There's only one real truth. One culprit, one Beatrice. I don't know why I couldn't see this back in EP4. I need some clarification on something in EP5 before I g on with this though.

What makes this more complicated though is that Ryukishi wants us to trust the truths in his game, despite some of these are "forgeries". "Senza amore..."

I'm ready for BATTLER's game. Hmm... with his cloak and golden longsword, he seems quite like a shounen manga character, with a very fitting name. :heh:

[Toku]

My interpretation of "new" Beatrice and what she's trying to tell us.
However, I think this is a pretty big clue for me. Just as Bern said back in EP1, Beatrice is a personification of the rules. To Battler who had a very little understanding of these rules in the beginning, she was a terrifying person who took joy in killing people. Now that he understands all the rules and "who Beatrice is" she's portrayed as very child like. This is exactly what Battler had wanted all along. Back in EP5, he keeps asking "what was she thinking?" Well, now we get to see this based on his understanding. We'll never be able to see that menacing troll face again, because we too will soon understand what Beatrice was thinking.

Quite an interesting way of seeing things. I'd be interested to see if/how your views on the matter change by the time you finish EP6.

I need some clarification on something in EP5 before I g on with this though.

What do you need clarification on?

What makes this more complicated though is that Ryukishi wants us to trust the truths in his game, despite some of these are "forgeries". "Senza amore..."

Yes, he wants the trust of his readers, of course. Without love, you cannot see the truth. At the very least, you must believe the Red Truths, or you will be left completely in the dark, without any hope of solving Umineko.

However, you also need to look at things from a skeptical point of view at the same time. Not everything in Umineko is truth, obviously. All of it is truth of a sort, but not necessarily THE truth.

[RandomAvatarFan]

What do you need clarification on?
The thing about EP5 I'm wondering about is the aftermath. Did everyone return from the island on October 6th? It just says that people were alive at the time the game adjourned.

This changes the way I see the message bottles, along with the whole Ange/Featherine scenes. It has something to do with catboxes and "everyone dies", but I'm not sure if this completely fits.

All of it is truth of a sort, but not necessarily THE truth.
Yup. It's figuring out what you're actually looking at that makes Umineko fun, and for me, fustrating

[AuraTwilight]

The thing about EP5 I'm wondering about is the aftermath. Did everyone return from the island on October 6th? It just says that people were alive at the time the game adjourned.

No, they didn't. The game was suspended. It's like when a story has no ending. Things were never allowed to continue from that point, like time was frozen.

[RandomAvatarFan]

I like the way the different sides of Beatrice are being portrayed with a different character. One to represent the ghost stories of Rokkenjima before hand. I'm not quite sure what Beatrice the chick represents. I think this Beatrice is the culprit of October 4th-5th 1986. The full illusion is reached when the culprit combines with the ghost stories. I have that much, but figuring out what made this Beato become the culprit will be interesting.
I've always like the way magic works in this story. There's a heartwarming side to it, like Maria and Sakutarou. The way the open window was portrayed as just a way for two sisters to enjoy the night's breeze. It's pretty sweet.

[AuraTwilight]

Beato the chick doesn't seem to be capable of murder, given how sweet and demure she is. Bear in mind that she was born for Battler, whatever that might mean.

[RandomAvatarFan]

Well, I just finished Jessica's trial, and Beato, Shannon, and Kanon all raised their hands at the same time. My "understanding" is only a guess at the moment.
I think Beato the chick represents the culprit who becomes Beatrice. An event* happens and Beatrice becomes a murderer. Becoming one with Beato the elder means putting on the persona of the witch of the ghost stories of Rokkenjima.

*I believe this event is a mixture of Battler's sin and the trial of love, which may end up being connected.

These trials are a little strange, but cool. It's a way to represent both what the characters are going through and I believe that the victims will be used for the first twilight. (and maybe one more? There are only five people there so far... unless Battler is pulled in to participate because of Beato)

It was easy to explain George's scene, as a way to show separation from his mother. Jessica's trial is a bit harder to explain. I want to say "jealousy" but it's not quite it. I'm looking forward to the last three trials. And Higurashi-eyed Jessica is pretty awesome. Hell fire and all that. Going into more detail with Kyrie and Rudolf was pretty neat.

If the last Episode had no love, this Episode seems to be nothing but romance. Pretty neat though.

[jjblue1]

Jessica's trial is a bit harder to explain. I want to say "jealousy" but it's not quite it. I'm looking forward to the last three trials. And Higurashi-eyed Jessica is pretty awesome. Hell fire and all that. Going into more detail with Kyrie and Rudolf was pretty neat.

If the last Episode had no love, this Episode seems to be nothing but romance. Pretty neat though.

Honestly I don't know if Jessica challenging Kyrie is merely an excuse for letting us hear Kyrie's story or there's more than that, like some sort of parallelism between Jessica and Kyrie's situation who could have been meaningful on Rokkenjima Prime (or maybe just a subtle reference to what will be EP7 Teaparty?).

It'll be interesting if it was more but there's no way to tell if that's the case. -_-

[RandomAvatarFan]

Honestly I don't know if Jessica challenging Kyrie is merely an excuse for letting us hear Kyrie's story or there's more than that, like some sort of parallelism between Jessica and Kyrie's situation
Well, there is some sort of parallelism between them, with Kyrie's "you need to harvest it." Jessica needs to work for it.
=/ I should look at it again, because I don't think "George killed Eva, Jessica killed Kyrie" is right. It's more or less the emotions that the characters involved are going through. As for how Eva and Kyrie actually died, that's not something we will see until their bodies are discovered and Erika does an investigation. Of course that's obvious though.

Honestly it doesn't make sense why these trials need to take place. Why can't Kanon be happy with Jessica and Shannon be happy with George on their own? Why is it that if Shannon leaves with George, Kanon will have to leave too?

[AuraTwilight]

Honestly it doesn't make sense why these trials need to take place. Why can't Kanon be happy with Jessica and Shannon be happy with George on their own? Why is it that if Shannon leaves with George, Kanon will have to leave too?

If you haven't figured it out yet, I won't spoil it, but it'll be obvious by the end of the episode, I think.

[RandomAvatarFan]

Oh, this is definitely going in a different direction. I was hoping for Erika's magical detective abilities to help, but that's gone, and the privilege she has without it was evil and horrifying. It's just as Battler had put it: "There's a real demon in front of me." Now Battler's is locked in the closed room, which would seem to be the focus of the story, considering the really strange prologue.

It's just like the cheese though. The obvious answer was denied, so we need to come up with a way to fold up the room and stack the cups. And Featherine did tell us to "think outside the closed room."

[AuraTwilight]

Hehe. Do you think you can solve it before the end of the episode? It's quite a doozy, even to people who've finished reading the series.

[RandomAvatarFan]

No, I wasn't able to, and the final red truth was a total mind screw. I can only guess at it, but, still if I do, I don't know how to move from there.
Once again, Kanon's body is not found, even though he wasn't pronounced "dead" with the red. But he doesn't exist in that room. How did it go: Cousin's room: Krauss, Jessica, Rudolf, Genji, Kanon, Gohda. The Next room over:Rudolf George, Shannon, Kumasawa, Nanjo.
Or: All the first twilight victims are where they are shown to be. Rudolf, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are in 'the next room over' Everyone else (minus Erika) is in the cousin's room. Including Erika, there are only 17 people on this island.
17 - First Twilight = 11
11 - Erika = 10
10 - 'Next Room over' = 4

So there are only 4 people in cousin's room which we see with Kanon disappearing. But if we assume he never existed in the first place, how could have Kanon rescued Battler. Kanon does not exist in this room. happen?

There is a lot of talk about what a "person" is. There's a lot of talk about what a "human" is. Even if the possibility that a "human" is "two people" exists, then the human that is also Kanon still need to have escaped the guesthouse without breaking the seals.

And EP6 Tips. Erika Furudo. Execute. Yeah, I'll tell you what exploded: my mind.

[AuraTwilight]

You realized the truth about Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice, right?

The three of them are the same person. Shannon left out the window, 'became Kanon', saved Battler, and then became Shannon so that 'Kanon didn't exist' (Or killed themself, whatever).

[Kealym]

Including Erika, there are only 17 people on this island. [/COLOR]

Weeeelllllll ... ... those last two reds are ... pretty interesting, huh?

There is a lot of talk about what a "person" is. There's a lot of talk about what a "human" is. Even if the possibility that a "human" is "two people" exists, then the human that is also Kanon still need to have escaped the guesthouse without breaking the seals.

And EP6 Tips. Erika Furudo. Execute. Yeah, I'll tell you what exploded: my mind.

I'd suggest reading through the little Gaap vs. Dlanor encounter, before the wedding starts, it may clear some stuff up for you.

[Drifloon]

You realized the truth about Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice, right?
The three of them are the same person. Shannon left out the window, 'became Kanon', saved Battler, and then became Shannon so that 'Kanon didn't exist' (Or killed themself, whatever).


Um, isn't this kind of a spoiler? I certainly didn't figure that out the first time I played EP6.

[AuraTwilight]

That's why I put it in a spoiler tag, dude.

[RandomAvatarFan]

I'd suggest reading through the little Gaap vs. Dlanor encounter, before the wedding starts, it may clear some stuff up for you.

I'll do that. I was confused about the windows and the seals. We have:
Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are in 'the next room over' Everyone else is in the cousin's room. The doors on both of these rooms were sealed at the time of the logic error. The windows in the cousins' room were sealed at the time of the logic error. It is forbidden to form a theory if the basis of argument is if the window seals of 'the next room over' were torn at the time of the logic error.
Of course then, Dlanor did "remove that seal". So when that last statement was made, was Dlanor just referring to Gaap using it before the wedding ceremony so she didn't have to deal with it, when in reality it is possible they could have escaped through the window? After Dlanor "removed the seal" Erika was able to speak a blue truth regarding that window.

[LyricalAura]

Of course then, Dlanor did "remove that seal". So when that last statement was made, was Dlanor just referring to Gaap using it before the wedding ceremony so she didn't have to deal with it, when in reality it is possible they could have escaped through the window? After Dlanor "removed the seal" Erika was able to speak a blue truth regarding that window.

Right. Unlike the red truth seals made with duct tape, which actually limited what was allowed to happen on the game board, that seal was just a cheap trick to interfere with the players. It didn't have any effect on the pieces.

[RandomAvatarFan]

that seal was just a cheap trick to interfere with the players. It didn't have any effect on the pieces.

So it is legal for Kanon to have jumped out of the window of the next room over...
Because he was never in the cousin's room with "everyone else", and only existed in the next room over.

[Drifloon]

The seal thing was a really stupid plot device that wasn't even necessary, honestly.

The same effect could have been achieved by Dlanor just saying in red that 'Neither Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, nor Nanjo escaped through the window!' That would have still made it unsolvable without using ShKanon, without having to make up a silly rule that didn't even make any sense.

[AuraTwilight]

You're right, but the same could be said of the big court room trial in EP5. I guess Ryukishi wanted the bad guys to be able to just....fucking cheat, I guess?

[Kylon99]

My interpretation of "new" Beatrice and what she's trying to tell us.
However, I think this is a pretty big clue for me. Just as Bern said back in EP1, Beatrice is a personification of the rules. To Battler who had a very little understanding of these rules in the beginning, she was a terrifying person who took joy in killing people. Now that he understands all the rules and "who Beatrice is" she's portrayed as very child like. This is exactly what Battler had wanted all along. Back in EP5, he keeps asking "what was she thinking?" Well, now we get to see this based on his understanding. We'll never be able to see that menacing troll face again, because we too will soon understand what Beatrice was thinking.


Oooo... you're getting close. 8)

In a way, I think I understand the whole Umineko event from Ryukishi's point of view now, how he would read the message boards and see people talking about their theories. When you read something like what Random's been saying you can only think, "You're so close! You're almost there!" He sees that people have been gathering up the clues he left in the text and how it's basically one MORE step. I can see how it really is just 'one more step!' from there... but...

Of course, I remember when I went through this and I know just how hard it is to put all the pieces together and figure it out. I don't think it was really as easy as Ryukishi thought. That last step was a real doozy... 8)

Anyways, thanks for posting your thoughts, Random. It's still fun watching others go through the game. 8)

[LyricalAura]

I posted various pieces of this theory a long time ago, but I don't think I ever compiled them into one big post. So, presented for your entertainment, in all its malignant glory:

I. Kanon's escape

Things we know:

In EP2, Kinzo was shown being very friendly to Kanon.
In EP2, a point was made of concealing Kanon's real name.
In EP4, everyone in the dining room acknowledged "Kinzo's" existence.
In EP4, Beato was unable to deny the possibility that someone had inherited Kinzo's name.
In EP6, we found out that Kinzo treated Kanon almost like a son.
In EP6, Kanon's real name was supposedly revealed... anticlimactically, and only in front of one person.
Erika told Battler to exclude "Kinzo" from the location check without actually verifying that "Kinzo" didn't exist on the EP6 game board.

Kanon is Kinzo's son, and rightfully inherited his name at birth. He was never in the cousins' room in the first place, and Erika didn't realize it because she'd been cleverly lured into excluding him from her checks.

II. The person limit

We were told that Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in the next room over, and "everyone else" was in the cousins' room. Unlike Kinzo, Erika herself was not excluded from the location check. That means her existence in the hallway is impossible. The only way she could have left the guesthouse is by going out the window in the next room over. And no one existed in that room except the five people who were named!

Erika is the culprit of EP6. And in EP5, we were told that the culprit must be someone who was introduced in the early part of the story. Putting that together with her apparent nonexistence, she must be an entity like Beatrice: a "detective's illusion" to match the "witch's illusion". So when she takes actions on the game board, it's actually an illusionary facade over the actions of the real culprit.

That culprit was Shannon, who was in the next room over.

III. The meeting in the guest room

Next we need to figure out the reasons for the pieces' actions so that the plot doesn't descend into a mess of meta-gaming. Why did Kanon go to "rescue" Battler in the first place, and why did Battler prepare a dangerous scalding water trap for Erika instead of just walking out of the guest room?

More things we know:

Battler thought he was participating in an innocent farce mystery.
Battler had no way of knowing that Erika had duct taped the outside of the door.
When Erika entered, Battler was hiding somewhere in the room.
Excluding one place, Battler was not in the room.
According to Erika, she searched the room except for one place, which was the closet.
Battler left while Erika was in the bathroom.
Kanon's rescue of Battler may or may not have been intentional.


The key to the whole thing is that Piece-Erika isn't the detective, she's a fantasy piece masking the culprit. Her perspective isn't reliable, and we can't trust even a single thing she sees or does unless it's backed up by red truth. Red, not blue. That was the second critical error that Meta-Erika made: believing that her theories corresponded to things her piece was actually doing.

Shannon is a knowing participant in the farce mystery. She left Battler alive in the guest room for a very simple reason: she needed him to continue the farce in order to disguise her real murders.

After leaving the guest house, Shannon met up with Kanon, and they went to the mansion together to discuss their next moves with Battler. Shannon opened the door for Kanon to let him in, and then entered and immediately closed and locked the door herself, not leaving any time for someone to slip out.

At the moment they entered, Battler wasn't on the bed. He was definitely hiding somewhere in the room. But he came out of hiding when he realized who it was, so Shannon didn't need to search the room at all. The one place Battler (and Kanon) could exist that was excluded by the red wasn't the closet as Meta-Erika believed, but the center of the room, where everyone was standing and talking to each other.

IV. Kanon's murder

When they were finished, Shannon went into the bathroom for a moment, perhaps to get a gun she had hidden there earlier. The trap that Meta-Erika saw existed only in the fantasy world of her piece's perspective. Battler left to take care of business, and Kanon reset the chain lock behind him. When Shannon came out, she made sure that Battler was gone, and then shot Kanon dead and stuffed his corpse in the closet. Because he was dead, he no longer counted as "existing" in the room.

[RandomAvatarFan]

Anyways, thanks for posting your thoughts, Random. It's still fun watching others go through the game. 8)
Would you like me to read to you, Featherine?

You're right, but the same could be said of the big court room trial in EP5.
Yeah, people said "oh look, the red doesn't work like it used to."
No, that's not right. I think it was just that the characters couldn't use it the way they wanted to. They're in a court. You need evidence to back up your claim.

Like Battler's "logic error": in EP4, they couldn't even speak in red something that wasn't true. So Battler would never be able to have made a logic error to begin with, simply because of the way red works. He wouldn't have been able to say it in red to begin with if it wasn't true.

[AuraTwilight]

No, that's not right. I think it was just that the characters couldn't use it the way they wanted to. They're in a court. You need evidence to back up your claim.


Except courts don't work that way. And Virgilia's been comparing the game to a 'court' since EP3, so why the sudden rule change? Lambda and Bern and Erika are just cheating jerks.

[RandomAvatarFan]

The Magical Court of Illusions worked that way. Well, my point was that when I see people say "Oh look, now the red has different rules." that's wrong. It's still red, and as a reader you should still trust it.

And Lyrical, I assumed the whole "Erika couldn't have existed in the hallway," didn't matter because Battler and Erika may have acknowledged that Piece!Erika would have been excluded, from the check since she herself was doing the checking. It is an interesting point, because they didn't say one way or the other. Your musings on Kanon = "Kinzo" was something I was toying with since I finished reading EP4. I do wonder if he is related to Kinzo, and is Natsuhi's son from 19 years ago. According to Natsuhi, Kinzo did want her to treat the child as if he was her own son, so Kinzo would have seen him as a blood relation as well regardless.

[AuraTwilight]

The Magical Court of Illusions worked that way. Well, my point was that when I see people say "Oh look, now the red has different rules." that's wrong. It's still red, and as a reader you should still trust it.

It's not that the red has different rules so much that Bern and Lambda basically get to do whatever they want without consequence and they're never called on it. It's not at all a fair game and Erika's team is constantly cheating.

[Drifloon]

Personally what bugs me about the E5 trial is the way Beatrice's situation is presented rather than the inconsistencies with the way red truth works. Shouldn't Beatrice's responsibility be to prove that Natsuhi COULDN'T have done it, making a 'witch culprit theory' the only possibility? Showing that someone else could have done it doesn't prove Natsuhi's innocence, and it just breaks the Illusion of the Witch even more. I really didn't get how it kept saying that Beatrice felt pain from the Illusion of the Witch being denied whenever it was proved that one of the people other than Natsuhi couldn't have done it, since that's actually STRENGTHENING the credibility of the 'witch culprit theory'.

[AuraTwilight]

Because the Beatrice of EP5 represents Natsuhi's delusions, specifically.

[GreyZone]

I posted various pieces of this theory a long time ago, but I don't think I ever compiled them into one big post. So, presented for your entertainment, in all its malignant glory:

I. Kanon's escape

Things we know:

In EP2, Kinzo was shown being very friendly to Kanon.
In EP2, a point was made of concealing Kanon's real name.
In EP4, everyone in the dining room acknowledged "Kinzo's" existence.
In EP4, Beato was unable to deny the possibility that someone had inherited Kinzo's name.
In EP6, we found out that Kinzo treated Kanon almost like a son.
In EP6, Kanon's real name was supposedly revealed... anticlimactically, and only in front of one person.
Erika told Battler to exclude "Kinzo" from the location check without actually verifying that "Kinzo" didn't exist on the EP6 game board.

Kanon is Kinzo's son, and rightfully inherited his name at birth. He was never in the cousins' room in the first place, and Erika didn't realize it because she'd been cleverly lured into excluding him from her checks.

II. The person limit

We were told that Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in the next room over, and "everyone else" was in the cousins' room. Unlike Kinzo, Erika herself was not excluded from the location check. That means her existence in the hallway is impossible. The only way she could have left the guesthouse is by going out the window in the next room over. And no one existed in that room except the five people who were named!

Erika is the culprit of EP6. And in EP5, we were told that the culprit must be someone who was introduced in the early part of the story. Putting that together with her apparent nonexistence, she must be an entity like Beatrice: a "detective's illusion" to match the "witch's illusion". So when she takes actions on the game board, it's actually an illusionary facade over the actions of the real culprit.

That culprit was Shannon, who was in the next room over.

III. The meeting in the guest room

Next we need to figure out the reasons for the pieces' actions so that the plot doesn't descend into a mess of meta-gaming. Why did Kanon go to "rescue" Battler in the first place, and why did Battler prepare a dangerous scalding water trap for Erika instead of just walking out of the guest room?

More things we know:

Battler thought he was participating in an innocent farce mystery.
Battler had no way of knowing that Erika had duct taped the outside of the door.
When Erika entered, Battler was hiding somewhere in the room.
Excluding one place, Battler was not in the room.
According to Erika, she searched the room except for one place, which was the closet.
Battler left while Erika was in the bathroom.
Kanon's rescue of Battler may or may not have been intentional.


The key to the whole thing is that Piece-Erika isn't the detective, she's a fantasy piece masking the culprit. Her perspective isn't reliable, and we can't trust even a single thing she sees or does unless it's backed up by red truth. Red, not blue. That was the second critical error that Meta-Erika made: believing that her theories corresponded to things her piece was actually doing.

Shannon is a knowing participant in the farce mystery. She left Battler alive in the guest room for a very simple reason: she needed him to continue the farce in order to disguise her real murders.

After leaving the guest house, Shannon met up with Kanon, and they went to the mansion together to discuss their next moves with Battler. Shannon opened the door for Kanon to let him in, and then entered and immediately closed and locked the door herself, not leaving any time for someone to slip out.

At the moment they entered, Battler wasn't on the bed. He was definitely hiding somewhere in the room. But he came out of hiding when he realized who it was, so Shannon didn't need to search the room at all. The one place Battler (and Kanon) could exist that was excluded by the red wasn't the closet as Meta-Erika believed, but the center of the room, where everyone was standing and talking to each other.

IV. Kanon's murder

When they were finished, Shannon went into the bathroom for a moment, perhaps to get a gun she had hidden there earlier. The trap that Meta-Erika saw existed only in the fantasy world of her piece's perspective. Battler left to take care of business, and Kanon reset the chain lock behind him. When Shannon came out, she made sure that Battler was gone, and then shot Kanon dead and stuffed his corpse in the closet. Because he was dead, he no longer counted as "existing" in the room.

[Request: 'The definition of a closed room implies that all forms of interference that pass between the inside and outside of the room are PREVENTED'.] Acknowledged


the complete sealing of both the cousins' room and the next room over has been GUARANTEED.


[B]At the time the next room over was sealed, Hideyoshi, George, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Nanjo were in it. And, the number of people in the next room over was five. No one existed there except for those to whom those five names referred! All people can only use their own names!!

[Confirming definition. Can I accept 'three people' to mean to the number of bodies? You're saying that three bodies went in or out of the room, right?] Of course. Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. It has already been said in red that all people can only use their own names. Therefore, the names Erika, Battler, and Kanon can only be used by those people.

So... Erika is not Kanon since they have seperate bodies... and you also said that Erika is only a different personality of Shannon and not of Kanon. And even if Erika's perspective is "unreliable", she cannot confirm something, that she didn't really do (the seals), so only her could put the seals in its place. Oh i almost forgot: Erika got 3 rooms worth of duct tape. And if you take this as it is in EP8, where the master keys were bound to the servants and couldn't be removed, then we can also say that Erika was not able to give away her duct tape. Therefore it is impossible for anyone, but Furudo Erika to put on the seals, which is impossible by your theory, because she was inside the next room over.

[LyricalAura]

Fooool, you think that defense will work? My theory requires her to be able to seal remotely, but yours requires her to exist in four places at once!

Time was frozen the moment Erika left the cousins' room, and yet she was able to seal both the doors (from the hallway) AND all of the 2F windows (from outside) instantaneously? Ridiculous. That alone was enough proof that those duct tape seals don't physically exist on the game board as anything but a narratively convenient fantasy. Where did it say in red that those doors and windows were sealed with duct tape?

[GreyZone]

Not bad. Your greatest weapon, the lack of a reliable perspective is strong. But it can be defeated!

Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED...!!

If you say, that the room was sealed with any other thing, besides duct tape, then i demand that you present that thing right here, right now!

Knox's 2nd. It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective TECHNIQUE.
It must be possible to reach the truth completly without red truth! Therefore Erika's perspective, while not completly reliable, is not allowed to be complete false either!

Oh and about the other thing: I never implied that the doors and Windows were close at the same time at all! "Sealed" means the moment, where the room became a "closed room". So until both seals were placed, the room was not sealed yet.
By using the classic solution, it does not matter in what order the seals were placed!

[Hoshino Kazuki]

May I ask a question?
In the second game, Beatrice said in red that: there are 18 people in this island
In the fourth game, she said: the actual number of people in this island is 17
but at the end of this episode, it is said that Erika is the 17th people, so there are only 16 people right? So why is Beatrice was able to said those statement in red? I though the red can only tell the truth?

[Oroboro]

^

I believe the actual statement from alliance is "No more than 17 humans exist on this island!!"

Big difference in wording, so nobody was lying.

[RandomAvatarFan]

Yup, in the second game she says "No more than 18 people" 17 and 16 are no more than 18.
In the fourth game she says "No more than 17 people" 16 is still no more than 18.

Which is funny because once you add what they say at the end of this chapter, the fourth game red "This is true for all games." is still in effect, even with the addition of Erika.

[LyricalAura]

Not bad. Your greatest weapon, the lack of a reliable perspective is strong. But it can be defeated!

Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED...!![

If you say, that the room was sealed with any other thing, besides duct tape, then i demand that you present that thing right here, right now!

I refuse! The room was not sealed with a "thing" at all. The "seal" was nothing more than an authorial agreement to notify Erika when the sealed door or window was opened! As for your clues...

Knox's 2nd. It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective TECHNIQUE.
It must be possible to reach the truth completly without red truth! Therefore Erika's perspective, while not completly reliable, is not allowed to be complete false either!

Furudo Erika is not the detective. Furthermore, Knox's 2nd was never stated during the sixth game. In fact, that game isn't independently solvable without reference to the love duel witnessed by Beatrice, so Knox's 2nd could never apply to it in the first place! Not to mention that if the guesthouse seals were physical duct tape, Piece-Erika couldn't possibly check them remotely while in the mansion, so Meta-Erika could only have used "supernatural" techniques to get that information!

Oh and about the other thing: I never implied that the doors and Windows were close at the same time at all! "Sealed" means the moment, where the room became a "closed room". So until both seals were placed, the room was not sealed yet.
By using the classic solution, it does not matter in what order the seals were placed!

True, true. But that blade cuts both ways, you know? For instance, who ever said that all of the seals were placed from the outside? Erika sealed the next room over while she was still inside it, and then broke the window seal herself! Therefore, it's possible even if she really used duct tape!

[GreyZone]

Oh wait! Blue truth arguing about the window is forbidden^^

Also: Furudo Erika is a human

And: exclusivly in this game the number of "people" is equal to the number of "bodies".

A dead body is still a body, be it as a corpse or as a living human, therefore by your logic, Kanon cannot leave the room and must still exist inside it.

and even if you deny that, then:

When Kanon "doesn't exist" in the guest room, There were 17 people., that means before Kanon died, there must have been 18 people. No more than 17 humans exist on Rokkenjima. This applies to all games! Adding Erika to the number, as it was done in EP5, did NOT happen here yet! Therefore there is 1 person too much on Rokkenjima and this theory fails!

[LyricalAura]

Oh wait! Blue truth arguing about the window is forbidden^^

Oh, that's right. What was it Beato said to Erika? Something like: "Go ahead and remove that seal if you want. You're the one it's locking up now."

[GreyZone]

(see updates of previous posts)

[LyricalAura]

And: exclusivly in this game the number of "people" is equal to the number of "bodies".

A dead body is still a body, be it as a corpse or as a living human, therefore by your logic, Kanon cannot leave the room and must still exist inside it.

Dead bodies do not "exist", regardless of whether they are present or not. Besides being noted in previous games, Erika also accepted that in this game by asking that Kinzo be excluded from her body location checks "because he doesn't exist."

This is a quirk of Japanese, which distinguishes between "animate existence" and "inanimate existence" with two different verbs.

and even if you deny that, then:

When Kanon "doesn't exist" in the guest room, There were 17 people., that means before Kanon died, there must have been 18 people. No more than 17 humans exist on Rokkenjima. This applies to all games! Adding Erika to the number, as it was done in EP5, did NOT happen here yet! Therefore there is 1 person too much on Rokkenjima and this theory fails!

You cannot pinpoint the time referred to by that red. It's a response to Erika's red, which was specifically said to be her self-introduction and states two things that are impossible on the EP6 gameboard. If they applied retroactively to the beginning of the EP5 gameboard, then we can equally propose that Battler's response applied retroactively to the beginning of EP6, when everyone was still alive. Therefore, there is no contradiction!

[Toku]

Dead bodies do not "exist", regardless of whether they are present or not. Besides being noted in previous games, Erika also accepted that in this game by asking that Kinzo be excluded from her body location checks "because he doesn't exist."

This is a quirk of Japanese, which distinguishes between "animate existence" and "inanimate existence" with two different verbs.

This is interesting. Can something similar be said about the status of Shannon and Kanon being "dead" in previous games? In other words, is it possible to get rid of the supposed contradiction that they were dead in Red Text and yet there was no actual corpse for them nor any physical process of dying involved, if we know about a quirk of the Japanese language?

[GreyZone]

Dead bodies do not "exist", regardless of whether they are present or not. Besides being noted in previous games, Erika also accepted that in this game by asking that Kinzo be excluded from her body location checks "because he doesn't exist."

This is a quirk of Japanese, which distinguishes between "animate existence" and "inanimate existence" with two different verbs.

Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED...!!

How did he commit suicide? he didn't have too much time to switch with Battler, hide and then commit suicide, before Erika came back from the bath room! A Winchester gun would be too loud and any method that would make him lose blood could give away his position and suffocating would proably take too long.



You cannot pinpoint the time referred to by that red. It's a response to Erika's red, which was specifically said to be her self-introduction and states two things that are impossible on the EP6 gameboard. If they applied retroactively to the beginning of the EP5 gameboard, then we can equally propose that Battler's response applied retroactively to the beginning of EP6, when everyone was still alive. Therefore, there is no contradiction!

I can pinpoint it! The time "froze", when Erika left the bathroom! Any red truth that did not have specified another time, applied to that moment!

Also Erika's red truth was about being the "18th" human, a positional number, while Battler's and Beato's red truth was about "17" people, which is a quantitive number. And unlike Beato's red truths about the number, this is a specific number and not an upper limit!


[Regardless, who wins this, it was a nice fight until now. I wish such fights would happen more frequently^^]

[LyricalAura]

Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED...!!

How did he commit suicide? he didn't have too much time to switch with Battler, hide and then commit suicide, before Erika came back from the bath room! A Winchester gun would be too loud and any method that would make him lose blood could give away his position and suffocating would proably take too long.

What suicide? He was murdered with a gun by Erika, exactly as depicted. Really, what did she think would happen when she shot him five times?

Also, I made a mistake in my last post. Although Japanese does distinguish animate and inanimate existence, the red truth in this case didn't use either of those verbs, but a third one that can be used for both. The blue truth is still valid, though, just not linguistically motivated.

I can pinpoint it! The time "froze", when Erika left the bathroom! Any red truth that did not have specified another time, applied to that moment!

Erika was "welcomed" onto Battler's gameboard at the beginning of the game, so I claim that another time was in fact specified.

Also Erika's red truth was about being the "18th" human, a positional number, while Battler's and Beato's red truth was about "17" people, which is a quantitive number. And unlike Beato's red truths about the number, this is a specific number and not an upper limit!

If the count applies to the beginning of the game, then there is no problem with it being a specific number. Also, Erika can't be the "18th human" unless there is a separate "17th human" as well, and we know this is not true on the EP6 game board.

(Well, unless you count personalities as "humans". There was a scene in EP4 where Shannon and Kanon called themselves humans, so it's not like there's no precedent. Still, this is a non-Shkannon theory, so I'll ignore it for now.)

[Regardless, who wins this, it was a nice fight until now. I wish such fights would happen more frequently^^]

See if you can dig up my old Kinzotrice posts in the Spoilers thread. I bet you'd get a kick out of those.

[GreyZone]

What suicide? He was murdered with a gun by Erika, exactly as depicted. Really, what did she think would happen when she shot him five times?

The time "froze", when Erika left the bathroom! And she couldn't shoot him before she went to the bathroom. So there was never any chance for her to kill him!



Erika was "welcomed" onto Battler's gameboard at the beginning of the game, so I claim that another time was in fact specified.

If the count applies to the beginning of the game, then there is no problem with it being a specific number. Also, Erika can't be the "18th human" unless there is a separate "17th human" as well, and we know this is not true on the EP6 game board.

The term "human" include human corpses! Kinzo was only excluded from the "everyone else" for the cousins room, HOWEVER it was never said that his corpse doesn't exist! Therefore Kinzo's corpse was the 17th human!
That way Erika can be the '18th human' at any time. As there have been no clues for other human bodies/corpses, they are forbidden to exist.

18 human bodies exist on Rokkenjima and as she is the last one who "joined them", she cannot be "someone else" or a "personality"!



See if you can dig up my old Kinzotrice posts in the Spoilers thread. I bet you'd get a kick out of those.
I'll take a look if i got time.

[Renall]

From the Spoiler thread...I wonder what the Schwarzchild radius of the cousins' room would be if all living things in existence were trapped inside it? Gravitational collapse would certainly account for Erika's blathering about stopped time.Well, there's a number of critical factors here: How many things are there in the universe? Who constitutes a member of "everyone else?" Can they be defined to exist in the room even though there is no way for them to be in there or any way for them to fit? If the wall of the cousins' room had a hole in it, could the definition of "the cousins' room" include all areas not otherwise defined bounded by the accessible physical space of the area, thus encompassing the entire universe and making "everyone else" a true statement?

...wait a second. The definition of what constitutes a "room" is arbitrary. When Battler referred to "the cousins' room" he referred not only to the actual cousins' room, but to the cousins' room and the entire universe except those rooms which had already been defined (the six victim rooms, the next room over). At the time of the sealings, Kanon's location was "somewhere in the universe that isn't one of the predetermined rooms," thus he counted as being in "the cousins' room" yet was not actually in the room itself and thus could move around without breaking any window or door seals. Battler acknowledged that "The definition of closed room implies that it is impossible to construct from the OUTSIDE." Erika constructed the seal on "the cousins' room" from the outside of the physical room. Ergo, either the room was not a closed room (had a hole in the wall) or Erika's position at the time she constructed the seals was part of "the cousins' room." As she was not in one of the predefined rooms at the time of the sealing, I posit that the latter was the case and Erika and Kanon were both "in the cousins' room" but not in the cousins' room. Both were free to leave the room and enter any of the other predefined rooms so long as it was acknowledged that some seal was broken to do so; as Erika deliberately reconstructed a broken seal after the fact in Battler's room, this condition is indeed met and transfer between the two rooms is possible.

EDIT: Wait no, I can do one better: "The cousins' room" encompasses the entire universe and all rooms previously mentioned. I'm pretty sure this doesn't violate any reds, implied or specific. Battler was in his room and "the cousins' room." The five people in "the next room over" were in the next room over and "the cousins' room." The cousins' room is the universe itself, and Erika sealed it perfectly, such that no one entered or left the universe during this time.

EDIT EDIT: Lest someone commit the exclusionary fallacy, I can demonstrate that these statements are entirely logically consistent with an abstract example using numbers.

Consider the following statements:

The set of {1,2,3,5,7, ... n} are "prime numbers."

The set of {2,4,6,8,10, ... x} are "even numbers."

I acknowledge that "all other numbers" are "numbers."

Obviously, I am not excluding prime numbers and even numbers from the definition of numbers merely because "all other numbers" are being defined as numbers (as this would make only non-prime odd numbers numbers, which is not true).

Replace the first set with the names of the people in the next room over and "primes" with "the next room over." Replace the second set with the victims and "evens" with their room definitions. "All other numbers" swaps for "everyone else" and "numbers" for "the cousins' room." Clearly, we can easily determine that Shannon is in the cousins' room is, or could be, a true statement, if "the cousins' room" is read to define everywhere that exists including the subset "the next room over" into which Shannon is subdefined, in the exact same way we could say that 17 is a number even though it's not part of "all other numbers" (it's a prime), because it's still a number.

Logic error, meet formal logic.

[RandomAvatarFan]

"The cousins' room" encompasses the entire universe and all rooms previously mentioned.The cousins' room is the universe itself, and Erika sealed it perfectly, such that no one entered or left the universe during this time.

This is the most beautiful, vibrant blue I have ever seen. Someone paint a picture.

[GreyZone]

oh there was a victim in the next room over? I mean "2" is in both sets :thinker:



Ok... well nice theory, really! Battler would be ashamed for "only" coming up with small bombs, or a "hidden mechanism that enables high towers to rise in the rose garden", however i take the red sword out and say: There has been NO clues that the universe is inside a room, therefore by "the name of god", I FORBID you to use that argument. "DIE THE DEATH! SENTENCED TO DEATH! THE GREAT EQUALIZER IS DEATH!"

well that's it... oh i was just citing the last part. And this behaviour is because in this thread i am used to this. (see blue/red/black walls of text above)

[Renall]

oh there was a victim in the next room over? I mean "2" is in both sets :thinker:

Ok... well nice theory, really! Battler would be ashamed for "only" coming up with small bombs, or a "hidden mechanism that enables high towers to rise in the rose garden", however i take the red sword out and say: There has been NO clues that the universe is inside a room, therefore by "the name of god", I FORBID you to use that argument. DIE THE DEATH! SENTENCED TO DEATH! THE GREAT EQUALIZER IS DEATH!Aha! But hold a moment: It's very clear that Erika received specific information about the physical makeup or formal definition of a room only when she asked for such specific definitions. For example, Erika asked, and had it confirmed for her, that "the guest room" contains "the bathroom," "the bedroom," and "the closet." It was possible to say Battler is not on the bed even though Battler was inside the room; it is possible to subdivide a room while remaining a part of a larger room! Ergo, it is possible to subdivide the definition of a room, and unless that room is more specifically defined, it is only possible to speak about the room in general terms. Battler exploited this by simply failing to define the cousins' room or its contents with specificity, leaving open the possibility that everyone who isn't Kinzo could be defined as being in that room.

It is possible that, had Erika asked for a more specific subdivision of other rooms and a more concrete description of what they contain, Battler would have been forced to compartmentalize "the cousins' room." But because Erika never asked, he's free to define "the cousins' room" arbitrarily as any space he wishes, so long as it can be sealed by Erika's fiat seals! Clues are not necessary; the definition of "the cousins' room" was never asked for, and prior narrative precedent makes it specifically clear that Erika had to ask in order to be sure!

Moreover, it was not addressed how Erika could make "the cousins' room" a closed room unless she was inside it! If "the cousins' room" is an inclusionary substitution for the entire universe, it is possible for her to have sealed it while remaining inside! In fact, "the universe" - or some arbitrarily-sized segment of the universe larger than the room itself and at least encompassing the hallway - is the only definition of a "closed room" that can be permitted to describe "the cousins' room!"

A neverending seal of duct tape envelops the entirety of creation! Nothing may enter or leave the universe so long as this seal is in place! "God" transcends the universe! "God" is separate and distinct from the universe! Because "God" is sealed outside the closed room, he cannot interfere! The name of "God" cannot touch this argument!

[GreyZone]

Can you define where "universe" starts and where it ends? If you can't, then your argument is invalid, because a blue truth must contain all specifics of a theory and not just parts of it.

Also a room of unknown size is a "hard to understand device". Well considering this I could even say that it's impossible for it to exist, even with an explanation...


EDIT: The power of the seal IS "God", so if you exclude "God", then no closed rooms even exist. Or in other words: You break the rules. But as a player of this game you accepted the rules. If you break them now, you'll be banished from the game.