Mourning day for the spanish people

[RebootEDC]

It's a mourning day for the spanish people, and for all the people who believes in freedom.

I know this has nothing to do with anime or fansubbing, but it has a lot to do with freedom.

Today 192 people were killed in Madrid, Spain, our capital city, and 1427 people were injured by our terrorist group, ETA. They have been hitting us since mid XX century, and has been it's worst act, situating this terrorist band near al-qaeda.

Three train/tube stations were bombed at rush hour in Madrid (7.45-7.55 a.m.) thirteen bombs in total, plus one vagon (full of explosives) that was hopefully detected before it exploded...

Today is a mourning day for me, for the spanish people, for freedom.

[Shii]

Updates from SA:

Zephro came out of the closet to say:
Channel 4 news: arabic tape found at suspect's house.
RealTimePicnic came out of the closet to say:
http://protoscape.com/somethingawful/emot_spain.gif
Well, what have I to add? :(

[RebootEDC]

I don't know, man, if they were muslims. But I think we had enough with one terrorist band for our small country, I hope we won't have to worry about others.
All our country is shocked.
It's been a holocaust.

[Hellychan]

Yeah, I've seen that in the news, I'm sorry for Spanish people :(

[Caliban]

WOW, what a shock to me. I would never expect them to do such an attack with that scale. My sorrow is also with the Spanish people, fellow neighbours for a long time of Portugal where I lived.

[Lambda]

192 people? That's a lot! It takes, ooh, nearly an hour for that many children to die due to a lack of clean water around the world. Sorry, I know, they're not important, otherwise they'd be on TV.

Let's get some perspective, people.

[Dragon Flame]

gee, if 192 children died every hour due to a lack of clean water u would imagine that in a few weeks they would run out of children... perspective?

[Kerensky18]

My heart felt sorrows go out to the spanish people and to the children around the world.

[hobobaggins]

Yeah, I've seen that in the news, I'm sorry for Spanish people :(
http://monsite.wanadoo.fr/HELLYCHAN/images/0-picture.gif

it is hard to take that post seriously with that underneath

and ... ... ... 192?

http://www.hitler.org/ww2-deaths.html

http://www.historyguy.com/american_war_casualties.html

doesnt sound like much, but i guess that it sucks more having to have it hang over your head... unless you know someone who was affected by it.

[boneyjellyfish]

gee, if 192 children died every hour due to a lack of clean water u would imagine that in a few weeks they would run out of children... perspective?

People are quickly replaced. If there are 192 children dying every hour from lack of clean water, then there are at least 384 children being born in that same hour. Perspective.

Yes, it is a very sad event (and my sympathies certainly go out to the victims' families), but people need to learn to live their lives to the fullest even when things like this happens. I swear, if there's a 9/11 memorial on every channel this year I'm going to EXPLODE! Come on people, move on.

Apathy rules! Not that I really care...

[animelatino]

I'm sorry to hear this, I hope that your country will recover from your loss, My heart goes for you since your Spain is my Mother country, (I'm Mexican). Viva la madre Patria.

[Vulkar]

We read and talked about this in my Spanish class today. Oh man, that's rough. 192 innocent people killed and 1430 injured. All they were trying to do was go to work in the morning and they get slaughtered. You have my sympathies, RebootEDC. I hope you're not in Madrid, there must be a terrifying atmosphere there, right now. Please keep us updated about this, if you don't mind. Have they decided whether it's ETA, who did it for sure, or Al Queda, or something? Frankly, these ETA people seem like bastards. I have very little sympathy for their cause. I read they attempted and failed sometime ago to do the same thing except that attempt was on Christmas. :(

[hobobaggins]

they sound like IRA... or ELF.

except ELF's cause is dumb.

[Forse]

192 doesn't seem much unless it's your mother there or some1 you know. I hope this event will teach ppl about terrorism. In my mind countries should unite to fight against terrorism.

Since it's muslim ppl again I say we need to execute like 200 of their children just to show that's attacks will not be tolerated. In my opinion muslim ppl have brought a lot of sorrow upon this world. As always best defence method is attack.

[hobobaggins]

192 doesn't seem much unless it's your mother there or some1 you know. I hope this event will teach ppl about terrorism. In my mind countries should unite to fight against terrorism.

Since it's muslim ppl again I say we need to execute like 200 of their children just to show that's attacks will not be tolerated. In my opinion muslim ppl have brought a lot of sorrow upon this world. As always best defence method is attack.

do you know richman?

excecute 200 of their kids?

terrorists generally dont have kids. that is why they blow themselves up. killing kids will just make people more pissed.

EDIT: i cant believe you just really said that.

EDIT2: holy crap! hea really said that.

and: how is the best method of defense attack, when they have nothing to attack?

[demosthenes]

ha ha ha very funny, terrorize isnt a little ant you sguish on the ground. is a collouny that has vast networks of tunnels. desturb the nest a out pops a hundred more.

[Thany]

192 doesn't seem much unless it's your mother there or some1 you know. I hope this event will teach ppl about terrorism. In my mind countries should unite to fight against terrorism.

Since it's muslim ppl again I say we need to execute like 200 of their children just to show that's attacks will not be tolerated. In my opinion muslim ppl have brought a lot of sorrow upon this world. As always best defence method is attack.
Wasn't it what the Spain did?
As far as I know Spain helped the US to attack Irak so it was a possibility that there would be things like this happening.
Doing this would be going lower than these extremists (if it's truly them who did this).

[hobobaggins]

PLEASE oh PLEASE spell stuff correctly.
Demoth: g and q are not in the same area of the keyboard. how did you confuse the two.

colony?

with that many errors, i didnt bother to read the rest.

but yes, you are generally right.

thany: i think every member of the sane, reasonable community thinks similarly.

Forse keep up the funny stuff!

[Dopeskills]

The arab group who took credit for the attack was also the same group who tried to claim that they were responsible for the power outage in the Northeast. (So... I wouldn't be so sure if its them)

[Forse]

Well I think terrorists understand one thing and one thing only = power. Also they should increase security on public places. I think countries should unite and form some kinda organization that would take out terrorists...shoot to kill. Also all muslim ppl should be watched carefully and they shouldn't be allowed to gain high positions in community...unless they have VERY clear background.

I myself would pretty much wipe out their countries...but then again maybe it's good that ppl like me don't run for president :)

P.S. Eye for an eye!

[RebootEDC]

Wasn't it what the Spain did?
As far as I know Spain helped the US to attack Irak so it was a possibility that there would be things like this happening.
Doing this would be going lower than these extremists (if it's truly them who did this).
I'm not that sure, Spain didn't do anything. We just backed US on the UN. And that's all. And helping to mantain stability on a little Iraq area with peace forces (I mean, with our civil policemen)
But we already have a terrorist band wandering our country, so we just were and easy target.
Out Interior Ministry says it may have been our terrorist band with muslims' one collaboration.

They can kick our ass, but they'd never get our freedom.

[Access]

I'm not that sure, Spain didn't do anything. We just backed US on the UN. And that's all. And helping to mantain stability on a little Iraq area with peace forces (I mean, with our civil policemen)
But we already have a terrorist band wandering our country, so we just were and easy target.
Out Interior Ministry says it may have been our terrorist band with muslims' one collaboration.

They can kick our ass, but they'd never get our freedom.
Actually if you are in Spain the people there did do something, ~1000 yrs ago they fought + drove out the arabs during the crusades. And you are right about being a target of opportunity.

http://www.khyber.demon.co.uk/history/naval_crusades/andalus.htm
http://mars.acnet.wnec.edu/~grempel/courses/wc1/lectures/21crusades.html
etc., do a search on the web "crusades" and "spain" (note: many of the sites out there are biased one way or the other, but they should at least give you an idea of the history).

Religion is just another weapon to them. You have to fight people who don't know love and would control with force and fear and death.

[RebootEDC]

Actually if you are in Spain the people there did do something, ~1000 yrs ago they fought + drove out the arabs during the crusades. And you are right about being a target of opportunity.
Well, yeah.
They conquered us 13 centuries ago, and we spent 8 centuries to return them back to Africa. You know the Cid Campeador, the Catholic Kings and the conquer of Granada...
And after the reconquer, it came the re-rise of the muslim world with the conquer of Constantinopla... and the crusades.
But that's history, man. I don't blame italians for Rome conquering Hispania and make vanish Cartago. Moreover, I'm grateful, because Rome brought us prosperity. So the muslims (mathematics, irrigation, culture).

But the whole matter can be summed up in people that by some dark opinions can hate other people so much they enjoy killing them. I can't understand it.

[Nothing Special]

… Also all muslim ppl should be watched carefully and they shouldn't be allowed to gain high positions in community...unless they have VERY clear background.

…

I watched this documentary on Islam (http://www.pbs.org/empires/islam/) on PBS; it was aired a few months after 9/11. What I got out of it was that people like Osama Bin Laden are giving Muslims a bad name.

Islam is the fastest growing religion today. It's already followed by at least one billion people. The idea that Muslims are suspicious people is unjustified.

Just FYI: Islam is the religion; Muslims are the believers.

[Lambda]

A general thought I've just had. Things like this thread are actually part of the problem. If nobody payed any attention whenever terrorists blew something up, pretty soon they'd stop doing it, there wouldn't be any point. The goal of terrorists is to spread terror, right? So why do we have to overreact whenever they do something and help them spread that terror? There are two really good ways to fight terrorism, and one is to ignore it. (The other is of course to tackle the root causes.)

[RebootEDC]

A general thought I've just had. Things like this thread are actually part of the problem. If nobody payed any attention whenever terrorists blew something up, pretty soon they'd stop doing it, there wouldn't be any point.
Nah... We've got 50 years experience in terrorism and we have tryed everything. Killing them, ignoring them and now trying to press them with justice on our hand. But it seems all the effors are useless.

The goal of terrorists is to spread terror, right? So why do we have to overreact
Do you think with 200 people killed, 44 more nearly going to die, and 1500 injured, a simple forum thread is an overreaction? I don't think so. :(

whenever they do something and help them spread that terror? There are two really good ways to fight terrorism, and one is to ignore it. (The other is of course to tackle the root causes.)
What I can't understand is why, in the verge of the third millenium of the christian era, in the verge of collonizating Mars, in an era of globalization we, the people, can't get along easily. Something fails. And politics/culture/religion/fanatism has its influence.

[Nothing Special]

A general thought I've just had. Things like this thread are actually part of the problem. If nobody payed any attention whenever terrorists blew something up, pretty soon they'd stop doing it, there wouldn't be any point. The goal of terrorists is to spread terror, right? So why do we have to overreact whenever they do something and help them spread that terror? There are two really good ways to fight terrorism, and one is to ignore it. (The other is of course to tackle the root causes.)

I don't think ignoring tragic events is very healthy. Talking about things that hurt us is very human.

Terrorists try to control people by using fear. That's the problem. I believe that the only way to fix that problem is to show courage. The 9/11 terrorist attack involved four planes. One crashed in Pennsylvania because the passengers fought back. Imagine the devastating effect on the terrorists' morale if the other three planes weren't successful with their attack.

If each one of us in this world were willing to die for one another, don't you think the world would be a better place?

[Lambda]

Do you think with 200 people killed, 44 more nearly going to die, and 1500 injured, a simple forum thread is an overreaction? I don't think so. :(

Yes it is. As I pointed out earlier, it takes less than an hour for that many children to die due to a lack of clean water. Is anyone making a forum thread for them? If we made a thread every time 200 people died, there would be no room for anything else in the forum. The only thing about these people is that they died in an unusually dramatic way. If they'd been killed gradually over a year in extra road traffic accidents, nobody outside their family and friends would care tuppence.

I don't think ignoring tragic events is very healthy. Talking about things that hurt us is very human.

You're missing the point. It's the very fact that we're not ignoring it which makes it a tragic event in the first place. When most people die, to the world it isn't a tragic event. It's just a statistic. If we treated terrorist attacks in the same way we treat road traffic accidents, or rivers being dirty, or yet another tiny AIDS outbreak in an African village, we wouldn't be hurt by it. We wouldn't even know about it. (Always assuming you don't actually have any personal connection to any of the victims.)

[Thyrz]

For the ones who believe in god "They are in a better place now". ;)

And for the ones that don't, suck it up.

What happened on 9/11 is WAY overrated. It's become some kind of jinxed date now.

[Vulkar]

Also all muslim ppl should be watched carefully and they shouldn't be allowed to gain high positions in community...unless they have VERY clear background.

I myself would pretty much wipe out their countries...but then again maybe it's good that ppl like me don't run for president :)


I take it you don't have friends who are Muslims? I do, and frankly, as fellow citizens, and fellow human beings they deserve as many rights and freedoms as I do. Descrimination based on ethnicity and/or religion is one of the worst things to ever take place on this globe. Frankly, I'd rather not group friends and enemies together just because they're of the same religion or race, nor do I support blacklisting based on race. Both of which you've reccommended in your post. Sorry, to rant on about this a bit, but after having an immediate visceral reaction to your post, I had to respond.

[Forse]

I take it you don't have friends who are Muslims? I do, and frankly, as fellow citizens, and fellow human beings they deserve as many rights and freedoms as I do. Descrimination based on ethnicity and/or religion is one of the worst things to ever take place on this globe. Frankly, I'd rather not group friends and enemies together just because they're of the same religion or race, nor do I support blacklisting based on race. Both of which you've reccommended in your post. Sorry, to rant on about this a bit, but after having an immediate visceral reaction to your post, I had to respond.

No no it's okey =) Here are some corrections to what you have assumed about me:
-I was born and raised in muslim country
-I had many "friends" muslim
-I saw muslim ppl from many countries in europe
-I know more muslims then you (TRUST ME)

Still after all this...I would never be close friend with muslim person, coz they tend to stab you in the back. Pointless to tell me that I generalise....I know a lot of them. I respect your opinion and you have full right to defend it, maybe world would be better if there were more ppl like you...but I am cold realist.

[DekaMaster]

For the ones who believe in god "They are in a better place now". ;)

And for the ones that don't, suck it up.

What happened on 9/11 is WAY overrated. It's become some kind of jinxed date now.
Yeah man way overated. over 3000 people died. that is overrated. Terrorists took down two of the biggest buildings and a focal point for economy that is overrated. All those people that died who cares about them right? They are just overrated.

[Briareos]

No no it's okey =) Here are some corrections to what you have assumed about me:
-I was born and raised in muslim country
-I had many "friends" muslim
-I saw muslim ppl from many countries in europe
-I know more muslims then you (TRUST ME)

Still after all this...I would never be close friend with muslim person, coz they tend to stab you in the back. Pointless to tell me that I generalise....I know a lot of them. I respect your opinion and you have full right to defend it, maybe world would be better if there were more ppl like you...but I am cold realist.It's the heart of a stereotype: I know a few of them who are bad, so I distrust them all. It's just like a woman who gives up on men, because "they're all like that".

And an eye for an eye doesn't work. If you randomly kill people in retaliation, they will be back to kill more of your people, and the cycle of violence will continue endlessly. You can penalize a nation via tax levies if you think it'll do any good, but that's different than slaughtering civilians.

As for the perspective thing, Lambda, the difference is that the 192 children are from random places around the globe who are dying from natural (but preventable) causes. The deaths and injuries in Spain were a concentrated group, and were inflicted intentionally by other people. Not only is this an assaut on the people of Spain, it is an attack on their personal peace and freedom. If we ignore the terrorists, they will simply put forth more plans to do this again and again and again, because their goal (the terrorists, not the muslims -- there is a difference, Forse) is the destabilization of their enemies. They will not stop until they either are stopped, or they (God forbid) achieve their goals. What we should not do is give them free press and talk about the incident for years on end (i.e. 9/11).

You think there are any terrorists monitoring the Animesuki Forums? I think not.

It is horrible that 192 children die every minute from poor conditions. It is horrible that 192+ have died or will die from the attacks in Spain. Does talking about one set of deaths somehow devalue the death of others? Every life is precious. Let's not turn human lives into a numbers game. Doesn't that just lead to apathy?

[Thyrz]

Yeah man way overated. over 3000 people died. that is overrated. Terrorists took down two of the biggest buildings and a focal point for economy that is overrated. All those people that died who cares about them right? They are just overrated.

Who would put up lights to 'replace' the towers? Why do they make such a big deal out of it? It only makes people remember.

edit: harsh word there

[Briareos]

Who would put up lights to 'replace' the towers? Why do they make such a big deal out of it? It only makes people remember.Because if you forget, history more quickly repeats itself. That's the whole point of history classes, is so that we can learn from the past folly of the human race. Every new life is another chance for our flawed species to get it right.

[Thyrz]

We do not have to recreate it to remember it, we do not live in a society anymore, where people forget 3000+ deaths in a few days.

Every new life is another chance for our flawed species to get it right.

I agree with you there, fully.


Q: are you from America?

[u&t]

I though it was so you you wouldn't forget why you were killing all these "other" people.

There was major wars in europe every 25 years (more or less) up until the point where people started forgetting.

[Thyrz]

I though it was so you you wouldn't forget why you were killing all these "other" people.

There was major wars in europe every 25 years (more or less) up until the point where people started forgetting.


I think they make it sound worse than it is, because Bush needed an excuse to attack, right? I might be way off, I might not..

[boneyjellyfish]

I think they make it sound worse than it is, because Bush needed an excuse to attack, right? I might be way off, I might not..

Woah, woah, woah. Looks like we have a conspiracy theorist in our midst! Thyrz, I don't think that Bush was looking for an excuse to attack, I think that the 9/11 thing just gave him that little nudge to put him on the path. Humans are vengeful, and Bush is no different from any other human.

[Briareos]

We do not have to recreate it to remember it, we do not live in a society anymore, where people forget 3000+ deaths in a few days.

Q: are you from America?Yep, Kalamazoo, Michigan. I must say that I was saddened about the 9/11 event, but I didn't feel the need for vengance (not that I'm saying that's why we went to war, but I admit that it could have been a factor).

That monument will last a lot longer than a few days. Ever been to the Vietnam War Memorial (the wall of soldier's names carved in black stone so reflective you can see yourself in it) or the Arlington Cemetery (rows and rows of white crosses as far as the eye can see)? A motto that people say about the Jewish Holocaust is "Never Again".

Human beings have a long history of having a short memory about what people are capable of doing to each other.

Woah, woah, woah. Looks like we have a conspiracy theorist in our midst! Thyrz, I don't think that Bush was looking for an excuse to attack, I think that the 9/11 thing just gave him that little nudge to put him on the path. Humans are vengeful, and Bush is no different from any other human.I think it is fair to say that 9/11 gave Bush an opportunity to go to war with public opinion on his side. Whether the stated reasons we went to war are the real resons we went to war -- your guess is a good as mine.

The "beauty" of a conspiracy theory is that it can't be proven true or false. Arguing them is moot (but feel free to start another thread).



Anyhow (back on topic), I offer a personal moment of silence to those whose lives were -- in a moment -- taken or changed forever in Spain.
_
_
_
_
_
_
_

[Access]

We as a society value life, death is bad. Death is the worst. (Obviously not all societies value human life, and this is not OK).

But intentional death can't be compared to inadvertent death. The intentional taking of lives is different than people dying to due insufficiencies or old age or largely preventable causes.

Your life is yours, not someone else's to take away.

It's like the murderer who kills people with the justification "they are going to die anyway". It's evil for another to intentionally take the life of another. It's bad for people to die due to insufficiencies too, but that's not a crime that a person who values life commits with intent.

Murder (intentionally killing) is the worst crime in our society, and murderers must always be dealt with, or sooner or later they will strike again, again, again...

[Thyrz]

Woah, woah, woah. Looks like we have a conspiracy theorist in our midst! .

Always ; )

Thyrz, I don't think that Bush was looking for an excuse to attack, I think that the 9/11 thing just gave him that little nudge to put him on the path. Humans are vengeful, and Bush is no different from any other human.

First, this is a simple theory and may not necessarily be evil. Now..

It has been said, Bush was already wanting to attack terrorist groups in different countries. He also requested alot of help from other countries. To gain more publicity for military reinforcements from other countries he held speeches and put up those lights, every time you see it you think about the attack. [/theory]

As I said, I might be way off, I might not..

edit:

..And to get back on topic, the attacks on 9/11 and this one in Madrid are attacks on *everyone* who stands for freedom and peace. A safe society deserves priority and this problem should be taken care of by everyone who stands for freedom and peace.

[u&t]

Yep, Kalamazoo, Michigan.

That monument will last a lot longer than a few days. Ever been to the Vietnam War Memorial (the Wall) or the Arlington Cemetery (rows and rows of white crosses as far as the eye can see)?

But those are memorials for the families. There should be something on ground zero for the people that in effect have their relatives and/or friends buried there but when you make giant shooting rods of light it's not a monument for the dead. It's a monument over national pride.

[Briareos]

But those are memorials for the families. There should be something on ground zero for the people that in effect have their relatives and/or friends buried there but when you make giant shooting rods of light it's not a monument for the dead. It's a monument over national pride.I wouldn't mind continuing this discussion, but not in this thread. I think we're way off topic.

[Forse]

I wouldn't mind continuing this discussion, but not in this thread. I think we're way off topic.

Yep this should be close to prevent flaming and getting off topic.

[Thyrz]

I was just being my playful me, no flaming intended and this side of the forum is for fun. ; )

edit

[u&t]

The national pride thing, just like "God bless America" it makes us think America feels superior over others. They have this patriotic thing going too far I think ;).

Uhm, I feel we've had enough trolling for now. Shut up.

Thread should be open though. Someone might have something relevant to say about the original topic. In that case it should be open.

[hobobaggins]

Yep this should be close to prevent flaming and getting off topic.
to prevent flaming?

in essence, you are suggesting the naruto forums be closed. :uhoh:

... so. anything else happen? any groups step forward?

[dragonz20]

I find it truly revolting that anyone can find any reason to target and kill innocent bystanders. I hope those people responsible are caught and slowly tortured to death.

My prayers are with Spain and its people.

[kamij0]

so sad to heard about this news...so sudden, spain is also such an unlikely target of terrorism, who knows where they might strike next.

[stormy001_M1A2]

192 doesn't seem much unless it's your mother there or some1 you know. I hope this event will teach ppl about terrorism. In my mind countries should unite to fight against terrorism.

Since it's muslim ppl again I say we need to execute like 200 of their children just to show that's attacks will not be tolerated. In my opinion muslim ppl have brought a lot of sorrow upon this world. As always best defence method is attack.

HEY! A lot of my good friends is Muslim and they are not terrorists! Please rethink! :frustrated: :nono: :mad:

[Briareos]

Besides, Muslims aren't a race of people, they're followers of a religion. Anyone could take up Islam as a faith, just as anyone can become a Chirstian (although followers of both religions meet with persecution in differnt parts of the world). Islam does not advocate what these individuals are doing. They are just twisting the religious zeal of impressionable minds to suit their agenda.

Knowing what organization or individuals are responsible will be very important. As kamij0 says, it is kind of frightening to wonder where another attack will occur. I think it's impossible to prevent all acts of terror, but taking action against those specifically responsible (not an entire people or followers of a religion) is important so that they do not have a chance to repeat this kind of violence.

Finding out who is responsible is something to be left to the proper authorities who have the connections enabling them to do so.

[Lambda]

As for the perspective thing, Lambda, the difference is that the 192 children are from random places around the globe who are dying from natural (but preventable) causes. The deaths and injuries in Spain were a concentrated group, and were inflicted intentionally by other people.

As I said, they died in an unusually dramatic way. With other people, and with someone very obviously directly to blame. It doesn't make people who die from disease any less dead.

If we ignore the terrorists, they will simply put forth more plans to do this again and again and again, because their goal (the terrorists, not the muslims -- there is a difference, Forse) is the destabilization of their enemies.

Erm, if we treated terrorist death like any other death, their actions wouldn't have a destabilising effect in the first place. So they'd have to look for some other way of doing things if that is their goal.

They will not stop until they either are stopped, or they (God forbid) achieve their goals.

It's a common misconception (unfortunately popular amongst our leaders) that you can directly stop terrorism. Terrorism isn't caused by some identifiable and "stoppable" small group of people that you can attack and "destroy", as in "war on terror", it's caused by political and social conditions that continually generate the people who do such things. Wipe out one group, and you create the next. The only way to stop terrorism is to remove the conditions which generate it.

You think there are any terrorists monitoring the Animesuki Forums? I think not.

Irrelevant. This is the stage in which the terrorists don't play any part, it's the stage in which we assist them in their task by spreading the message of their terror as far and wide as possible.

Every life is precious. Let's not turn human lives into a numbers game. Doesn't that just lead to apathy?

Well, I would hope it would lead to us dealing with the plight of the millions of people, instead of leaving them to die because we only want to deal with the plight of the thousands of people.

..And to get back on topic, the attacks on 9/11 and this one in Madrid are attacks on *everyone* who stands for freedom and peace.

Erm, could you explain that one please? The terrorists we're generally talking about are motivated by things such as Israel's occupation of Palestine, America's meddling in the Middle East in general and so forth. How does that equate to an attack on freedom?

[Za Paper]

It took lots of courage for countries like Spain, Poland, Turkey, etc to support the US in the war on terrorism. They dont have the huge amount of resources like America does to protect itself so are more open to terrorist attacks. Unfortunately, this was an inevitable result of the "war on terrorism". Which looks more and more every day like a war that we cannot win with the methods we are employing.

[method]

Last time I checked the WTC was not a military base, nor were civilians involved in any hostility towards the middle east.

[u&t]

Last time I checked the WTC was not a military base, nor were civilians involved in any hostility towards the middle east.

In war there is no difference between civillians and soldiers. Soldiers are only more likely to shoot back. Generals and politicians likes to talk about "innocents" to make theiit craft more justifed. In reality you just kill everyone and sort out the bodies later.

Terrorists don't have the resourses to kill lots of soldiers so they kill civillans instead. They are all the "enemy" after all...

[SirCanealot]

Since it's muslim ppl again I say we need to execute like 200 of their children just to show that's attacks will not be tolerated. In my opinion muslim ppl have brought a lot of sorrow upon this world. As always best defence method is attack.

Isn't this what's happening in Israle right now?

"And eye for an eye and the world will soon be blind"

This is one of my favourite quotes...

Grrrr. It pisses me off hearing about people being killed. I don't care if 5000 people die from lack of water in Africa (Well, I do, but...), this insane act deserves just the respect every other damn death does.

What'm I saying? Anyway, I hate killing. It's on the list of things that really, really piss me off. That's why even if I hate politics, it's a hell of a lot better than fighting each other with swords and guns.

Sympathies to the Spanish. I hope you all are keeping it together okay :(

[method]

You have missed the point. The US for one thing was never at war with Al-Queda. They specifically targetted civilians. Those people are innocents. Most of the people in WTC knew nothing about the US's involement in Afganistan.

[dragonz20]

In war there is no difference between civillians and soldiers. Soldiers are only more likely to shoot back. Generals and politicians likes to talk about "innocents" to make theiit craft more justifed. In reality you just kill everyone and sort out the bodies later.

Terrorists don't have the resourses to kill lots of soldiers so they kill civillans instead. They are all the "enemy" after all...

I beg to differ. There is a huge difference between civilians and soldiers... Maybe in the middle of a huge battlefield where civilians are caught in the middle of the action, then maybe civilians and soldiers can be easily confused in the heat of the moment. But to target innocent non-military civilians in a non-military area, there is NO justification for it whatsover. With your logic, there is no reason not to execute POWs then. There are the enemy and we can use our resources to concentrate on the war instead of playing chaperon and feeding them...

edit1: also, you obviously have no idea what war is nowadays. US soldiers take extra measures whenever possible to prevent and avoid civilian casualties. I suggest you research a little bit before saying things that aren't true. "The kill everyone and let God sort 'em out" mentality only exists in movies and doesn't apply to current real-life war anymore... at least not on the US side anyway.

Wipe out one group, and you create the next. The only way to stop terrorism is to remove the conditions which generate it.

Yes well that is much easier said than done and it sounds really good. But what conditions are you talking about? How are you going about doing it? Saying we must attack the source of these problems is painfully obvious to me and everyone else with half a brain. This is what peace-loving tree huggers have been clamoring before the US-Iraq war but I have not heard one good answer at stopping terrorism peacefully and successfully.

[Briareos]

As I said, they died in an unusually dramatic way. With other people, and with someone very obviously directly to blame. It doesn't make people who die from disease any less dead.I agree. However disease and mass murder are two different things.Erm, if we treated terrorist death like any other death, their actions wouldn't have a destabilising effect in the first place. So they'd have to look for some other way of doing things if that is their goal.We can't treat horrific actions like this as some outbreak of the flu. Usually a "terrorist" action is commited with the use of a large explosive device, or poison gas, or something that is equally fatal. I don't think we should let snipers run rampid around the United States or Spain just because those who die in the sniping attacks don't outnumber those who die of starvation every day. If a series of railway cars explode, killing 200 people and injuring thousands more, you just don't say, "Oh well!"

What if they don't find another way to state their cause? What if they just target more people with bigger explosives. The perpetrators of these acts obviously have no regard for human life. Like the snipers, they're not going to stop until they are stopped.It's a common misconception (unfortunately popular amongst our leaders) that you can directly stop terrorism. Terrorism isn't caused by some identifiable and "stoppable" small group of people that you can attack and "destroy", as in "war on terror", it's caused by political and social conditions that continually generate the people who do such things. Wipe out one group, and you create the next. The only way to stop terrorism is to remove the conditions which generate it.And what if you can't just remove those conditions? The world isn't that simple.

Sometimes terrorism is caused by a single person. Sometimes it is a mass effort by hundreds of people. But there are always perpetrators. Do we just let them do what they please?

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not defending the "war on terror" as it is being carried out. I don't know if it will be for the greater good, or lead to worse troubles later. But a message has to be sent that terrorism is not a viable way to put your agenda on the map, and apathy is simply ignoring the white elephant in the living room. Yes we should try to remove the conditions that are hostle, but terrorists are usually a small faction (of a larger group of people who believe in a cause). The difference is that the terrorists believe that randomly killing people will serve their cause.Irrelevant. This is the stage in which the terrorists don't play any part, it's the stage in which we assist them in their task by spreading the message of their terror as far and wide as possible.So we're talking about the terrorist's act. Do we know who the terrorists are, or even what they want? How can talking about these events be doing the terrorists any good?Well, I would hope it would lead to us dealing with the plight of the millions of people, instead of leaving them to die because we only want to deal with the plight of the thousands of people.Okay, until millions of people aren't starving in various places around the globe, let's let snipers pick people off as they're driving down random roads. Lets let whom ever wants set off truck bombs in front of our Federal buildings. Let's do nothing about this little train thing in Spain. See how stable your world is then. You can just pray that you're not caught in the next bomb blast.Erm, could you explain that one please? The terrorists we're generally talking about are motivated by things such as Israel's occupation of Palestine, America's meddling in the Middle East in general and so forth. How does that equate to an attack on freedom?It equates as an attack on freedom because the terroists are saying that if the world isn't the way they want it, they're gonna blow people and things up until it is. A world ruled by fear is not a free place.

In the case of Palestine, the terroism (and retaliation from Israeli soldiers) is halting negotiations that could lead to peace. A small portion of the population is holding both nations hostage with the threat of violence. Does this not sound in opposition to freedom?

There are a lot of Palestinians and Israelis that want to live together in peace. There are also a large number of people who are not happy with how things are on both sides. Then we have extremists who are willing to send people out with bombs. "Hey, people over in Israel and Palestine, you should just ignore those suicide bombers! If you talk about them, you're just giving them power!" I bet they'd love to hear that. "If we just ignore the people and buildings exploding around us, things will be stable!" Right.

Note: quotation marks in the last sentence denote sarcasm

[hobobaggins]

In war there is no difference between civillians and soldiers. Soldiers are only more likely to shoot back. Generals and politicians likes to talk about "innocents" to make theiit craft more justifed. In reality you just kill everyone and sort out the bodies later.

Terrorists don't have the resourses to kill lots of soldiers so they kill civillans instead. They are all the "enemy" after all...

Please make some note of that to put that on your headstone. that would be something great to see over a grave.

[Lambda]

I agree. However disease and mass murder are two different things.We can't treat horrific actions like this as some outbreak of the flu. Usually a "terrorist" action is commited with the use of a large explosive device, or poison gas, or something that is equally fatal. I don't think we should let snipers run rampid around the United States or Spain just because those who die in the sniping attacks don't outnumber those who die of starvation every day. If a series of railway cars explode, killing 200 people and injuring thousands more, you just don't say, "Oh well!"

Taking action against anyone who has illegally caused or contributed towards a death, and when appropriate developing further techniques of future prevention is a perfectly normal part of its treatment. It's the huge media fuss that's unique to terrorist deaths and a few others.

.And what if you can't just remove those conditions?

Then you can't solve the problem.

Sometimes terrorism is caused by a single person. Sometimes it is a mass effort by hundreds of people. But there are always perpetrators. Do we just let them do what they please?

I've never suggested that we abdicate proper application of the law.

[Access]

Erm, could you explain that one please? The terrorists we're generally talking about are motivated by things such as Israel's occupation of Palestine, America's meddling in the Middle East in general and so forth. How does that equate to an attack on freedom?
They only know hatred. "Motivation" requires some semblence of reason and train-of-throught (basic understanding of cause and effect). Killing people and acting as a terrorist defies a solution to the 'problem', it makes it worse and worse as time goes on. They are the 'problem', they have made it as bad as it is today specifically by killing people and being terrorists. It's not a solution or a sound motivation as you and I use the word.

For someone who knows only killing / death / evil, the action comes first and the justification comes later, if at all. If the 'thing' they were supposedly killing over went away, they'd find another 'thing'. Hence it's not a true motivation at all. If you or I am 'motivated' by something, and that something were to go away, we'd stop doing it.

As far as the 'war on terror', I'd suggest reading
http://fas.org/htarchive.htm
read the article "Bounding the Global War on Terrorism"
That pretty much sums up what people here are trying to say (I think).

[Briareos]

Taking action against anyone who has illegally caused or contributed towards a death, and when appropriate developing further techniques of future prevention is a perfectly normal part of its treatment. It's the huge media fuss that's unique to terrorist deaths and a few others.I guess my question then is, how does the media specifically help their cause?

Instead of using the comparitive analysis, which makes it look like you're pitting the global tragedy of the unfortunate against a specific act of mass murder, wouldn't it be better for you to rally those who are interested in your cause, and create media stir around the plight of those who are dying around the globe? There are groups working to help those who are in need worldwide. Get involved with one of them.As far as the 'war on terror', I'd suggest reading
http://fas.org/htarchive.htm
read the article "Bounding the Global War on Terrorism"
That pretty much sums up what people here are trying to say (I think).I agree with that article completely. If those repsonsible for an act can be identified, they should be sought after. The war in Iraq was and is not such a pursuit and I believe we very much overstepped in that case.

[wnkryo]

Yeah, I've seen that in the news, I'm sorry for Spanish people :(

Terrible event. I also feel very sorry for the people of Spain.

[u&t]

I beg to differ. There is a huge difference between civilians and soldiers... Maybe in the middle of a huge battlefield where civilians are caught in the middle of the action, then maybe civilians and soldiers can be easily confused in the heat of the moment. But to target innocent non-military civilians in a non-military area, there is NO justification for it whatsover. With your logic, there is no reason not to execute POWs then. There are the enemy and we can use our resources to concentrate on the war instead of playing chaperon and feeding them...

edit1: also, you obviously have no idea what war is nowadays. US soldiers take extra measures whenever possible to prevent and avoid civilian casualties. I suggest you research a little bit before saying things that aren't true. "The kill everyone and let God sort 'em out" mentality only exists in movies and doesn't apply to current real-life war anymore... at least not on the US side anyway.



I'm sorry I'm confusing you guys. I'm talking realpolitik here. I'm not saying the US is targeting civillians. I also don't belive in the word "battlefields". You don't fight modern wars on battlefields. The notion of having to go "through" your enemy in order to reach your goals is jus so medieval (can you tell I don't belive in chivalry in the modern world). Here is just a few questions for you all.

Why have more civillians than soldiers been killed in the war on terrorism?
What is it that made civillians "innocent" and soldiers somehow "guilty"?
Soldiers always say they do what they do to protect the "innocent". If the enemy can, why just dont kill the civillians first? It is easier after all.

I'm not flaming the us military or anything. They are doing what they can. It's just I'm sick of their mentality. Do you actually belive there is a violent solution to modern terrorism that doesn't include killing everyone?

[Briareos]

...I'm not flaming the us military or anything. They are doing what they can. It's just I'm sick of their mentality. Do you actually belive there is a violent solution to modern terrorism that doesn't include killing everyone?The Global War on Terror is a topic worthy of another thread I think.

[boneyjellyfish]

Here's a little something for you conspiracy theorists (http://www.local6.com/news/2917852/detail.html).

[method]

Why have more civillians than soldiers been killed in the war on terrorism?
What is it that made civillians "innocent" and soldiers somehow "guilty"?
Soldiers always say they do what they do to protect the "innocent". If the enemy can, why just dont kill the civillians first? It is easier after all.

The difference between a soldier and a civilian is that a soldier actively participates in a war and accepts all that comes with that.

[u&t]

The difference between a soldier and a civilian is that a soldier actively participates in a war and accepts all that comes with that.

I know that but it didn't really answer any of the questions did it?

[hobobaggins]

Why have more civillians than soldiers been killed in the war on terrorism?
What is it that made civillians "innocent" and soldiers somehow "guilty"?
Soldiers always say they do what they do to protect the "innocent". If the enemy can, why just dont kill the civillians first? It is easier after all.

you cant identify dead people F/F

Soldiers are participating in armed resistance.

Why not kill the civillians first? because you do that after silly.

[method]

Simple answer.
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/92.htm

[demosthenes]

what is the difference between civilian and millitary? - a snappy looking outfit and someone saying its all right your doing it for your country.
what ever happened with those people "test driving" those car bombs right into check points, they looked fairing civilian to me.