View Full Version : The Movie of the Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya (Impressions/Reviews)
Mod Edit: This thread was split from the News & Anticipation thread.
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If it happens in the movie, it isn't a spoiler, but...
You should probably use spoiler tags for major events or revelations in the movie as a safety precaution. Don't be inconsiderate and give away the ending or anything.
If it's happened in content that already aired as part of the TV series (either "season"), it isn't a spoiler.
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Things that happen in future novels are not allowed in this thread. If you want to discuss that, we have a spoiler thread
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Original post follows...
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And finally, camrip has out.....
http://img13.yfrog.com/i/suzumiyaharuhinoshoushi.jpg
I recommended you to pick a 5 Gb one, another one is a April Fool's Day joke.
Rungelunge
2010-04-02, 10:21
http://i43.tinypic.com/xd8d28.jpg
wait wait wait wait wait is this the real camrip the 5GB one?It seems to be fake b'coz its very large size. But it's real.
Nappy Hared Azn
2010-04-02, 12:21
If that picture's any indication of the quality, I think I'll wait a few more months.
tolerantfire
2010-04-02, 13:03
I can post the link for torrent download if it's not against rules of this forum.
The quality is horrible, but sound is rather good. With such sound it seems to be no problem for fansubers to create fansub. One more thing, the screen constantly blinks so camrip is very hard to watch
relentlessflame
2010-04-02, 13:36
I can post the link for torrent download if it's not against rules of this forum.Just an FYI that it is against the forum rules to post raws, and that includes camrips. It is also against the Forum Rules to request such things, whether publicly or in Private Messages on these boards. Please consult the actual rules (http://forums.animesuki.com/faq.php?faq=rules#faq_rules_1_1) for more information.
AmyElizzabeth
2010-04-02, 17:05
..Yeah, I'm gonna wait till theres a good quality one :heh:
Takamura Mamoru
2010-04-02, 18:33
I watched a bit on stream.
At one point every viewer, including me went fucking nuts. When Kyon starts yelling at Taniguchi like a GAR motherfucker and that awesome music starts.
Oh god this movie is too awesome.
BUT MY DOWNLOAD HASN'T FINISHED YET.
Edit: Download almost finished and I never went so batshit watching something
EVERYTHING IS BRILLIANT
And no matter what your expectations of the Asakura stab scene are, they will be surpassed. HOLY FUCKING HELL.
TakariCritic
2010-04-02, 19:47
Downloading like the fist of the north star. I caught the stream though. Even with the odd angle, the movie was just glorious. But then again, I value content over perfect graphics, so your mileage may vary.
I'm.... just so happy....
FlashFumo
2010-04-02, 20:16
I must resist watching the camrip. I must resist. I must resit... :upset:
Takamura Mamoru
2010-04-02, 22:01
Someone streamed it, anyway.
Felt good yelling "KYON IS SO GAR" with 50 other people. :D
Game8910
2010-04-02, 23:05
i was on the latest stream as well...and I agree with Takamura that 1 scene surpassed EVERY single one of my expectation...BY FAR
Well, I just skimmed through cam rip. Yeah, movie looks absolutely incredible. Can't wait DVD/Blu-ray!
TheHaruhiIncarnate
2010-04-03, 07:47
GAHHH! I didn't see it! damn! I'm missed my opportunity. T_T
now the links all jacked up.
TheHaruhiIncarnate
2010-04-03, 10:34
hehe. saw it this morning. found a link on twitter and saw it. the guy left his laptop on thw whole night. that's dedication. thanks for those who helped me thought. :) And i think i recruted a new member. ;)
haruhi.ism
2010-04-03, 12:21
omgomgomg. even if it's a crappy rip, now i can die happy xD
omgomgomg. even if it's a crappy rip, now i can die happy xD
I wish I could... :( Oh well, maybe someday :D
AmyElizzabeth
2010-04-03, 15:48
D: Looking at all your guys reactions makes me seriously regret I hadn't skipped out...
But I actually prefer quality, soo
TheHaruhiIncarnate
2010-04-03, 16:27
It really is amazing. cant wait to get this FKN blu-ray!
Rungelunge
2010-04-03, 16:41
There is out there a PV of the movie in HD that could indicate a future Bluray release.
HARUHI'S MOVIE IMAGE (http://i39.tinypic.com/a2t85f.png)
I hope so.
D: Looking at all your guys reactions makes me seriously regret I hadn't skipped out...
But I actually prefer quality, soo
It's not exactly like you can't still enjoy the quality when/if it became available later. I know that my kids went to see a 2D version of Avatar before we could see it in 3D, and they seemed to enjoy both.
Perhaps more on topic, does the success of the movie make it more or less likely that the follow-on will be another movie or another series?
TheHaruhiIncarnate
2010-04-03, 19:49
It's not exactly like you can't still enjoy the quality when/if it became available later. I know that my kids went to see a 2D version of Avatar before we could see it in 3D, and they seemed to enjoy both.
Perhaps more on topic, does the success of the movie make it more or less likely that the follow-on will be another movie or another series?
More likely. They're gonna HAVE to make a third season because Kyon has to finish what he has to do in the Disappearance Arc. I don' think they could leave that open.
relentlessflame
2010-04-03, 20:24
Perhaps more on topic, does the success of the movie make it more or less likely that the follow-on will be another movie or another series?There seems to be a lot of interest in the anime industry right now in making more anime movies, because I think they see this as a way of increasing revenue (since people pay to see it in theatres, and will pay again when it arrives on DVD/BD). It also helps them deal with production timing issues given the ongoing shortage of skilled staff. So it wouldn't surprise me very much if they're considering more movies for the future of the franchise; of course, time will tell.
quigonkenny
2010-04-03, 21:06
There seems to be a lot of interest in the anime industry right now in making more anime movies, because I think they see this as a way of increasing revenue (since people pay to see it in theatres, and will pay again when it arrives on DVD/BD). It also helps them deal with production timing issues given the ongoing shortage of skilled staff. So it wouldn't surprise me very much if they're considering more movies for the future of the franchise; of course, time will tell.
And of course there's the added bonus of little to no loss of revenue to ripping and fansubbing, at least before the movie hits DVD/BD...
And of course there's the added bonus of little to no loss of revenue to ripping and fansubbing, at least before the movie hits DVD/BD...
So you're betting that no one is going to sub that thing out there we aren't talking about?
Better point - I'd be willing to bet a decent amount of money that the average fansub viewer spends more money on real DVDs and Manga than the average non-fansub viewer. I certainly wouldn't have bought all those volumes of Kimi ni Todoke if I hadn't seen episodes of a show that aren't licensed in my region first. I highly doubt I would have bought the boxed sets of Haruhi if I had never seen the show first. And so on.
Given that, I wonder if they aren't likely to actually start to minimize their market if they really delay everything by six months to a year. For high profile titles like Haruhi and Evangelion you can probably get away with it. But for most other series, I suspect what little publicity there was when it released would be gone and forgotten by the time the DVD/BD becomes available.
And let me get off my soap box now before I REALLY get started :D
relentlessflame
2010-04-03, 23:43
So you're betting that no one is going to sub that thing out there we aren't talking about?But consider how long it took to arrive and the level of quality we're talking about. That can hardly be considered serious competition.
Better point - I'd be willing to bet a decent amount of money that the average fansub viewer spends more money on real DVDs and Manga than the average non-fansub viewer.Oh boy... while we'll not get into this in this thread, suffice it to say that for those who buy anime at all, fansubs can be an influencing factor. But that highlighted part is the operating point, and the source of the whole dilemma.
And really, the benefit of the movie approach is less about the international market than it is about the domestic market. And in the case of the domestic market, most of the established fanbase is already there due to the source material. So the whole "delay" factor is not an issue in that case. Given the collapse in the North American market over the past few years, it's not too surprising that they aren't putting our interests first.
quigonkenny
2010-04-04, 01:46
So you're betting that no one is going to sub that thing out there we aren't talking about?
Better point - I'd be willing to bet a decent amount of money that the average fansub viewer spends more money on real DVDs and Manga than the average non-fansub viewer. I certainly wouldn't have bought all those volumes of Kimi ni Todoke if I hadn't seen episodes of a show that aren't licensed in my region first. I highly doubt I would have bought the boxed sets of Haruhi if I had never seen the show first. And so on.
Given that, I wonder if they aren't likely to actually start to minimize their market if they really delay everything by six months to a year. For high profile titles like Haruhi and Evangelion you can probably get away with it. But for most other series, I suspect what little publicity there was when it released would be gone and forgotten by the time the DVD/BD becomes available.
And let me get off my soap box now before I REALLY get started :D
There are a lot of people who watch fansubs and buy DVDs. You should see my own library. But I'll just say this. There are four groups of customers for any potential DVD/BD purchase:
a) people who will buy it in any case
b) people who will not buy it in any case
c) people who decide not to buy it after they see a fansub
d) people who decide to buy it after they see a fansub
This is the case with any property, but the ratios differ from title to title.
Most people automatically fall into b). It's sad but true. People are cheap, and with the anonymity that the internet gives, there's not even any moral compunction to give back to the creators, since for most their only moral compunction on this level of "sin" boils down to guilt avoidance. You are correct that some benefit might be gained by cutting the time between initial broadcast (or movie release) and first home release, but at least for movies, the longer it's in theaters, the higher the eventual profit margin is and the longer the publicity lasts. And home release dates kill ticket sales, so there has to be some time between the two.
There are some times where the existence of a fansub will give you more of d) than c), but not many. Primarily just new or little-known series that are very good.
For a number of reasons, primarily that Disappearance is well-known yet nowhere near an ideal introductory story for new fans, c) is unequivocally going to be a larger group than d). Very few people who haven't seen any Haruhi already are going to start with the movie, and as good as the story may be, those who do might even be so confused by it that they don't bother finishing it (it is 2 1/2 hours long).
And as Relentless Flame suggested, that crappy canrip that doesn't exist and that we're not talking about isn't going to be the "keeper version" in any fan's collection.
torrented the movie(can't wait anymore, lol) - and I'm absolutely satisfied with it. Just awesome
TheHaruhiIncarnate
2010-04-04, 08:47
I'm buying the DVD when it's out.
edkedkedk
2010-04-04, 08:53
I'm not going to spoil myself with the poor quality of the camrip, so... yeah. Determination, let's go! :heh:
There seems to be a lot of interest in the anime industry right now in making more anime movies, because I think they see this as a way of increasing revenue (since people pay to see it in theatres, and will pay again when it arrives on DVD/BD). It also helps them deal with production timing issues given the ongoing shortage of skilled staff. So it wouldn't surprise me very much if they're considering more movies for the future of the franchise; of course, time will tell.
There are just so many anime movies coming out that I'm surprised. Fate/Stay Night got a movie, Nanoha got a movie, Doraemon got its 25th movie (lolwut)... I think the staff in Japan has their work cut out for them, since a movie will attract much more attention than an anime. The industry needs the revenue to keep improving, and the animators need the freer schedule to better produce good animation, like relentlessflame has said. Also, some people will watch a movie, but not anime episodes, so the movie captures another portion of the audience, converting more fans in the process.
I'm not sure whether to discuss it here or not, but oh wells. I recently read an article that says the Japanese anime industry is in a crisis because of they outsource so much of their work to Korea and China. As a result, they are becoming more skilled and will probably start coming up with their own anime. For now the anime industry is limited to Japan, but perhaps we'll see Korean and Chinese ones soon.
Given the collapse in the North American market over the past few years, it's not too surprising that they aren't putting our interests first.
Point taken :D
Animexcel
2010-04-04, 10:29
torrented the movie(can't wait anymore, lol) - and I'm absolutely satisfied with it. Just awesome
Same here. I'd rather see a peek at it than wait several months in mental agony. The pictures, the trailers, the soundtrack.. tearing me up. I think it would be just as awesome when I see it on dvd/blu ray.
Heminga13
2010-04-04, 11:01
I'm tempted but...I think I too can wait until the DVD/Blu ray is out.
AmyElizzabeth
2010-04-04, 12:06
This is the point where I say "Screw quality" and go have an epic search.
But still. DVD/Blu-ray release better come sooner than 1 year.
This is the point where I say "Screw quality" and go have an epic search.
But still. DVD/Blu-ray release better come sooner than 1 year.
I'd expect the DVD/BluRay no later than August.
And as Relentless Flame suggested, that crappy canrip that doesn't exist and that we're not talking about isn't going to be the "keeper version" in any fan's collection.
Oh I don't know... it's kind of how I would imagine SHAFT doing Haruhi. Weird angles that change at times for no particular reason - sudden blank screens - etc. :D
quigonkenny
2010-04-04, 12:45
Oh I don't know... it's kind of how I would imagine SHAFT doing Haruhi. Weird angles that change at times for no particular reason - sudden blank screens - etc. :D
SHAFT doesn't do blank screens. There's always (variably) related words on those screens.
I'm buying the DVD when it's out.
This will probably be the movie on which I test that Japan/US shared BluRay region...
Game8910
2010-04-04, 14:58
if KyoAni is kind enough like they were with Haruhi 2009 DVDs, the movie might come out with english subtitles as well
baltakatei
2010-04-04, 22:17
The upside to watching a camrip version online is that I got to see it with my far-away girlfriend. <3 Even if we both had a DVD, it'd be hard to watch synchronously.
I sure wouldn't mind having a movie delivery system where I paid for me and someone else to watch a movie streamed online together. It'd save on the hassle of having to live in the same city as your friends.
DeepFriedAsian
2010-04-04, 23:33
The movie was really something. Even after several times watching it, certain scenes were just as awesome as when I first saw them. Definitely going in my (now-pulled-out-of-my-ass) top 5 anime movies list.
Can't wait for the BD/DVD release!
TheHaruhiIncarnate
2010-04-05, 07:22
The movie was really something. Even after several times watching it, certain scenes were just as awesome as when I first saw them. Definitely going in my (now-pulled-out-of-my-ass) top 5 anime movies list.
Can't wait for the BD/DVD release!
Ahhh. See you have joined. It's me, La.
AmyElizzabeth
2010-04-06, 18:30
Saw it. Loved it.
Although the blinking screen annoyed me, they did the voicing incredibly way (applause to Sugita)
Game8910
2010-04-06, 20:26
Agree with Amy, as a novel...Nagato stole the show...but in the movie, Sugita's acting as Kyon was just purely amazing, Kyon was the grand star of this movie and Sugita deserves an award for this lol
AmyElizzabeth
2010-04-06, 22:41
"incredibly way"?
I meant incredibly well..:p
Agree with Amy, as a novel...Nagato stole the show...but in the movie, Sugita's acting as Kyon was just purely amazing, Kyon was the grand star of this movie and Sugita deserves an award for this lol
:) Sugita has always done really well with Kyon, but here's where he shone...voice-wise
Kaisos Erranon
2010-04-07, 00:02
This was... the only real complaint I can come up with is that some scenes, especially the ones that were just dialogue (talking heads), kind of dragged, more due to me having read the book before than anything else... but The Best Goddamn Internal Monologue Of All Time more than made up for it. KyoAni is the best studio at mindfuck sequences ever. Yes, even better than Gainax.
I came in expecting a lot of Moe Yuki Lovefest Time and instead got Kyon being the best fucking protagonist in the history of anime. 10 out of motherfucking 10. :heh: I'm totally buying the BD no matter how much effort and money it takes.
There's a ringing endorsement if I ever heard one.
Myself, I'll wait for a non-camrip.
Animexcel
2010-04-07, 08:13
They edited the "READY?" track in that cool sequence. Oh well, I really enjoyed it and now my mind can concentrate elsewhere til the blu ray comes. Stoked for Kick-Ass! and I wouldn't say Yuki "stole" the show, Kyon was still the center of the movie.
TheHaruhiIncarnate
2010-04-07, 19:15
i dunno. regular Yuki is MUCH better than Alt!Yuki becuase i've never liked Moe things and Mikuru already anoyed the hell out of me. i don't think I can take another person in the SOS brigade like that. Regualr!Yuki is SOOOOO much more badass. XD
idk if i'm the only one. *shruggs*
Kaisos Erranon
2010-04-07, 19:20
i dunno. regular Yuki is MUCH better than Alt!Yuki becuase i've never liked Moe things and Mikuru already anoyed the hell out of me. i don't think I can take another person in the SOS brigade like that. Regualr!Yuki is SOOOOO much more badass. XD
I can't stand either.
quigonkenny
2010-04-08, 00:18
I can't stand either.
Yeah... We know...
^_^
AmyElizzabeth
2010-04-08, 16:32
i dunno. regular Yuki is MUCH better than Alt!Yuki becuase i've never liked Moe things and Mikuru already anoyed the hell out of me. i don't think I can take another person in the SOS brigade like that. XD
idk if i'm the only one. *shruggs*
AGREED!
Alt!Yuki waskinda like...another Mikuru
wth? mazui subbed it. lol ^^
http://mazuisubs.com/68
P.S. if this aint allowed, sorry. inform me and i'll remove it immediately.
P.P.S. i haven't watched the camrip and will not watch the camrip. i hereby promise that in the name of my goddess, Suzumiya Haruhi.
aw! Thanks for the link!! I appreciate it! ^^
Vegard Aune
2010-04-09, 06:48
wth? mazui subbed it. lol ^^
http://mazuisubs.com/68
P.S. if this aint allowed, sorry. inform me and i'll remove it immediately.
P.P.S. i haven't watched the camrip and will not watch the camrip. i hereby promise that in the name of my goddess, Suzumiya Haruhi.
Must... Resist... Temptation... To watch...!!!
It's nice of them to offer a sub of the camrip, but seeing how they admitted themselves that it looks awful, I think I'd rather wait until the DVD comes out.
AmyElizzabeth
2010-04-09, 07:43
I was planning on showing my friend, anyway, so subs would be awesome. As I said before, I'm screwing quality right now and just watching it >:3
Had a look at the cam rip subs.
If you read the book... the cam rip isn't that big of a deal.
That last "Arigato" by Nagato at the end was nice... oh, and don't miss the little bit after the credits... that was a pretty heart warming scene.
Still, a definite buy for me whenever this hits dvd/blu-ray.
You know what ? "Currently downloading the movie" Can't wait ^^
aegisofrime
2010-04-09, 13:01
Mazui basically sacrificed the satisfaction of being able to watch the movie the way it's meant to be watched. Thanks Mazui!
I'm still going to wait for a proper Blu-Ray though. Otherwise I will never be able to forgive myself.
Mazui basically sacrificed the satisfaction of being able to watch the movie the way it's meant to be watched. Thanks Mazui!
I'm still going to wait for a proper Blu-Ray though. Otherwise I will never be able to forgive myself.
Also means that once the DVD/BluRay is out, they merely have to do one timing shift (pending frame rate conversion, maybe 2 shifts) and encode, and b00m it's released.
You know what ? I would have watched the movie if only the cam wasn't so lopsided -_-
Yeah , better wait DVD/Bluray version .
Takamura Mamoru
2010-04-09, 14:53
"I'm leaving early. Tell Okabe I'm about to die from the bubonic plague and dysentery and typhoid all at the same time."
CLASSIC KYON. :D
kitten320
2010-04-09, 15:42
Had accidently stumbled on the movie, had no idea that there had to be one... From all the scenes I had skipped through, movie seems to be FAR more interesting than actual series which I really didn't like...
Might take a look at it.
The whole scene where that blue haired freak had stabbed Kyou surely got my attention as well as a completly different Haruhi.
Just saw the movie. In the middle of it I was called out my parents who wanted to eat lunch. They were talking about a Christmas party coming up.
It's April and we don't celebrate Christmas.
Completely scared the crap out of it. I paid attention a lot to see if there was any other connections between their conversation and what I was watching, but there were none. Still, crazy coincidence.
These are my reactions to the movie:
If there is anything to restore my faith in the future of the anime industry outside of Hayao Miyazaki, it would be this movie. The animation was absolutely amazing. The connections between this and the show were extremely smart and well done, especially with the first episode of season 2 (the only part of season 2 I liked). I never thought I'd hear Kyon contemplate becoming a Muslim or a Zoroastrian either, haha.
I somehow managed to go all this time avoiding spoilers on what happens in "The Disappearance" chapters of the light novel. I'm glad I did, and the wait was well worth it. Now don't get me wrong I have some complaints about the movie. Most notably its use of real life images instead of animation at certain parts, especially the final scene. But I still loved it and am willing to overlook those flaws since the rest of the movie was worth it.
The ending scene with the two Mikuru was quite interesting as well. This movie really belongs to Nagato though. We finally get an extreme in-depth look at who she is and how, despite her perfect and emotionless demeanor, she too has feelings. Now the show itself has hinted at this, but the movie seals the deal.
5/5, a stunning job by Kyoto Animation.
I cannot wait for an English release. I loved the dub of the first season so much I actually did buy it. I seriously am excited.
Sinestra
2010-04-09, 17:17
As much as i want to see this movie i think i might just wait for the bluray edition to appear. But its killing me at the moment iv heard great things so far.
So I just now finished watching movie. I'll say just this about movie"it's perfect". Personally to me it's the best movie I've ever seen. It's already on my /top 1 favorites anime list. Yeah, it was that good.
Now all that's left DVD/Blu-ray rips. Without a doubt I'll re-watch this movie countless time.
Btw, its been a long time since last time I watched cam rip release. ;D
SidVicious
2010-04-09, 18:55
Loved the movie.
Yuki was soooooooooooooo cute! :D
Takamura Mamoru
2010-04-09, 22:05
Alright, watched the movie again.
I cried. Twice. :sad:
Definitely the best movie I've ever watched.
I compare downloading the cam rip to a red button that says "Do not press." The temptation is so strong.. God the DVD's need to come out soon...
TheHaruhiIncarnate
2010-04-10, 07:45
I saw it subbed! SOOOOOOOOOOOOO much better!
So...
Region 1 release by 2013?
Or is that too optimistic looking at Bandai and the shape it's currently in?
Vegard Aune
2010-04-10, 11:01
Must... Resist... Temptation... To watch...!!!
Failed.
Horrible, horrible quality aside, it was an excellent movie, just as I had expected. The animation was excellent, (and consider this; The video-quality was absolute garbage, yet the animation-quality still managed to impress me) the music was great, and while I thought it was a bit dragged out at times, the important moments were handled perfectly. Having seen it now, I can hardly wait for the DVD to be released so I can see it again in proper quality. Only complaint? Why did they have to use that version of Yasashii Boukyaku for the credits? The a capella version is the only version of the song that I don't like, and it was the only one to actually appear in the movie...
The animation was excellent, (and consider this; The video-quality was absolute garbage, yet the animation-quality still managed to impress me)
That also is something I noticed.
If you have nothing else going for you, at least have beautiful animation.
Luckily this movie had a far amount of stuff going for it. :)
Had accidently stumbled on the movie, had no idea that there had to be one... From all the scenes I had skipped through, movie seems to be FAR more interesting than actual series which I really didn't like...
Might take a look at it.
The whole scene where that blue haired freak had stabbed Kyou surely got my attention as well as a completly different Haruhi.
I doubt you will understand half of the things going on in the movie if you didn't pay attention to the series itself, actually.
I'm tempted to watch it because of the large amount of positive stuff I've been hearing about the movie, but since it's LQ, I want to wait for the HQ release since I'll probably only watch it once.
I'm tempted to watch it because of the large amount of positive stuff I've been hearing about the movie, but since it's LQ, I want to wait for the HQ release since I'll probably only watch it once.
Not gonna happen.
This is defiantly a multiple watch movie.
I just watched in again... yeah, that's right... I watched the LQ twice... :heh:
Archon_Wing
2010-04-10, 14:19
i dunno. regular Yuki is MUCH better than Alt!Yuki becuase i've never liked Moe things and Mikuru already anoyed the hell out of me. i don't think I can take another person in the SOS brigade like that. Regualr!Yuki is SOOOOO much more badass. XD
idk if i'm the only one. *shruggs*
But that may be the point of the movie. ;) Just guessing here since I haven't read the source and don't intend on spoiling myself before a HQ version comes out.
Not gonna happen.
This is defiantly a multiple watch movie.
I just watched in again... yeah, that's right... I watched the LQ twice... :heh:
That's rarely the case for me since I never actually rewatched an anime movie so far, except the Kimagure Orange Road movie which I watched more than once being my all time favorite movie. :heh:
Ice Block
2010-04-10, 15:12
Now don't get me wrong I have some complaints about the movie. Most notably its use of real life images instead of animation at certain parts, especially the final scene. But I still loved it and am willing to overlook those flaws since the rest of the movie was worth it.
Hohoho... Now, this may seem like a BIG surprise to you, but there were no real-life images at all. Everything was animated/drawn. That's just how realistic the backgrounds in this movie are! I mean, just look at these two shots:
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn312/matr1x_zzz/SHnSOST0000.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn312/matr1x_zzz/Disappearance/923.jpg
FlashFumo
2010-04-10, 16:50
Hohoho... Now, this may seem like a BIG surprise to you, but there were no real-life images at all. Everything was animated/drawn. That's just how realistic the backgrounds in this movie are!
A...
Are you serious? :twitch:
ultimatemegax
2010-04-10, 17:37
A...
Are you serious? :twitch:
Yes. The backgrounds were all drawn for the movie. While I do not have a picture from the official guidebook of the two scenes Ice Block shown, here (http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg4/ultimatemegax/Haruhi%20Images/scan0014.jpg) is a scan that I used in my review of the book for Cartoon Leap that features a lot of school backgrounds (for non-spoiler reasons).
vvvThank you for letting me know. Link fixed.
quigonkenny
2010-04-10, 17:58
Link's bad, ultimatemegax.
Jesus, somebody actually thought that backgrounds was taken from real life pictures... x1000 :lmao
Animexcel
2010-04-10, 19:02
AGREED!
Alt!Yuki waskinda like...another Mikuru
No, Alt Yuki was just a shy bookworm. Nothing like Mikuru.
No, Alt Yuki was just a shy bookworm. Nothing like Mikuru.
Both are neutral females who do nothing but be cute. She is 'another' Mikuru because she don't show much deep on her character besides being moe. (I somewhat find her characterization more deep then Mikuru's up this point, tough)
Well, I find alt!Yuki realy really cute, but I understand who don't like her. I also preffer real!Yuki anyway
Takamura Mamoru
2010-04-10, 19:25
http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu328/Smokie1/bestmovieever.jpg
Fuck yeah.
ultimatemegax
2010-04-10, 19:29
Fuck yeah.
It's also third on the overall anime rankings currently. It may change when non-fans see it and give their input.
Blayne Barudorii
2010-04-10, 20:09
That also is something I noticed.
If you have nothing else going for you, at least have beautiful animation.
Luckily this movie had a far amount of stuff going for it. :)
This isn't so much imho a matter of the animation being really really good (which it was) but I think a matter of animation generally being "brighter" with a greater degree of contrast compared to "live action" movies where a cam recording is almost always utter **** and thus by extension CGI by trying to be more realistic and thus brown and dark really hard to see as well.
To summarize animation I think will generally always show up better from cam/ts recordings then the other versions of cinematic media.
But I digress, the movie was an awesome perfect adaption with the few extras thrown in (to contrast the difference between narration styles of Kyon in the novels and Kyon and the anime) and now I can't wait for Season 3.
Just saw the subbed camrip.
The only complaint I really have about the movie is that it got a little boring when it was just Kyon and someone else doing nothing but talk for a few minutes. (I was really bored during the scene in Alt!Yuki's apartment, for instance.) Other than that, I'd say this is one of the best movies I have ever seen. Like, ever. The animation is amazing, and the acting was perfectly done.
I'm so glad I watched this now instead of waiting. Now all that's left to do is wait for the DVD release~
(Well, nobody probably cares about my input, but I just wanted to put in my two cents.)
This is what many where waiting all of 2009 for...what we didn't get in 2009....but we have now.
I have seen the glory that is Nagato...I have seen her smile...all is well.
A...
Are you serious? :twitch:
__________________
This is Kyoto Animation....they are known for their excellent backgrounds....snow...crying...and many other things. Remember Clannad and Kanon's backgrounds?....These are twice as good.
FlashFumo
2010-04-11, 08:22
http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu328/Smokie1/bestmovieever.jpg
Fuck yeah.
I'm okay with this.
Also-
http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/9725/myskilllevelhasincrease.png
Takamura Mamoru
2010-04-11, 10:14
http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu328/Smokie1/bestmovieever5.jpg
To elaborate... ;)
TheHaruhiIncarnate
2010-04-11, 10:29
I hope those Haruhi Haters are pissed. >=)
One of the best anime movie....
really touching... (even though I'm watching the low quality)
Leo Keichi
2010-04-11, 10:47
Wow, I've seen some snapshots of the movie, and the animation is superb. Now I'm even more hyped for this. Here I was thinking I'd never be amazed by KyoAni anymore, but they did deliver in this movie.
Since I've already read all the novels, I won't be watching it so soon, but I'm so buying this blu-ray when it comes out. I almost started downloading the torrent, but camrips are not for me. I think I'm too picky, heh.
Nice to see Kobato is in the fourth position in this rank. And the third position in the male chart, it's that boy from Baka to Test! I see he's actually really popular.
Good to see fans like the movie at least. Though these lists say more about the fan dedication then the actual quality of the anime.
Still the signs are there that Haruhi is now "officially" forgiven. Even Sankaku called the movie excellent and sent his legion of anonymous minions after Angels Beats:p.
Now the hard part will be to avoid spoilers till the movie actually becomes available on DVD.
ultimatemegax
2010-04-11, 11:54
Good to see fans like the movie at least. Though these lists say more about the fan dedication then the actual quality of the anime.
Still the signs are there that Haruhi is now "officially" forgiven. Even Sankaku called the movie excellent and sent his legion of anonymous minions after Angels Beats:p.
Now the hard part will be to avoid spoilers till the movie actually becomes available on DVD.
I wish you good luck in your task. If you've avoided the spoilers throughout the past four years, it shouldn't be much harder to wait for the home release.
I'm glad the fandom is raving over the movie, and personally I do agree that it is a fantastic movie, but it feels like the 2006 hype may starting all over again.
So best scene of the movie goes to?
A) The train terminal, complete with bookmark ticket, and Alt!Yuki hold Kyon's sleeve and Haruhi waiting on the other side.
B) Kyon vs Inner Kyon, complete with borderline hate crime face stomping.
C) Kyon x Nagato moment on the hospital roof, complete with a make shift traditional Japanese wedding veil and Kyon on one knee.
D) Nagato's super cute reaction after the credits.
E) None of the above.
Wonderful, splendid, epic, whatever, it's just very great
I'm forgetting some things, or I'm wondering some things
The 'story' about Kyon fell from stairs and unconscious for three days, was there any explanation in other volume (maybe something like someone told Kyon about the truth of that, or who was the one that Haruhi said (based on Koisumi's statement) she felt she saw someone? Including the event when the Kyon - from the movie's time plane / who is 'the protagonist in the movie' - came back to Dec 18th and watching 'himself' getting stabbed by Asakura, and dealing with the rest jobs. For the last sentence, I feel like I ever read something like that, but I'm not sure (whether I am right or not). Tell me, if you know / remember, please
Season 2 (or 3..depending on your thought on what Haruhi 2009 was) will answer that...maybe. I sort of remember the part of a following novel (7 I think) that dealt with the aftermath of those events...but it has been a few years since I read that one.
So best scene of the movie goes to?
A) The train terminal, complete with bookmark ticket, and Alt!Yuki hold Kyon's sleeve and Haruhi waiting on the other side.
B) Kyon vs Inner Kyon, complete with borderline hate crime face stomping.
C) Kyon x Nagato moment on the hospital roof, complete with a make shift traditional Japanese wedding veil and Kyon on one knee.
D) Nagato's super cute reaction after the credits.
E) None of the above.
Well, while I disagree with E, there is certainly much to be said about all of these. However, I'd probably vote for C myself, but then I'm enough of a romantic that I wish he could marry the young (?) alien. Then again, that would make Haruhi sad, so I guess she'll have to reinvent a world where polygamy is legal in Japan :D
quigonkenny
2010-04-11, 15:45
So best scene of the movie goes to?
A) The train terminal, complete with bookmark ticket, and Alt!Yuki hold Kyon's sleeve and Haruhi waiting on the other side.
B) Kyon vs Inner Kyon, complete with borderline hate crime face stomping.
C) Kyon x Nagato moment on the hospital roof, complete with a make shift traditional Japanese wedding veil and Kyon on one knee.
D) Nagato's super cute reaction after the credits.
E) None of the above.
E) None of the above.
Ryoko's final scene. Psychopathic Ryoko is gloriously psychopathic...C) is close if only for the incredible background. And you just knew KyoAni had to work in a sad emotionless girl in snow somehow...
Season 2 (or 3..depending on your thought on what Haruhi 2009 was) will answer that...maybe. I sort of remember the part of a following novel (7 I think) that dealt with the aftermath of those events...but it has been a few years since I read that one.
Correct. The prologue of Volume 7 contains the resolution of Disappearance.
Thunder Book
2010-04-11, 16:15
Just saw the movie. Slightly different than how I remember the novel, but my god did this make up for Endless Eight. Fantastic film- 10/10.
AmyElizzabeth
2010-04-11, 18:23
Just saw the movie. Slightly different than how I remember the novel, but my god did this make up for Endless Eight. Fantastic film- 10/10.
I'm glad that it wasn't exactly like it, though.
The policeman looked like a kidnapper..
wingman32x
2010-04-11, 22:59
Just finished the movie, and I thought it was very good. Not a masterpiece, but it was very well done. I liked how Kyon's character developed during the course of the movie. I also loved the alternate Nagato, she was so cute. The animation looked great, and the plot was good, too. That being said, I thought it was a bit too long. IMO, they could have shaved 15-30 minutes off the run time and still have the plot remain in tact. It dragged on at times, too.
About it's #1 overall ranking on MAL, only 774 people rated it. Most of the top ten have been rated over 20,000 times. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it'll be pretty hard to maintain that 9.12 average IMO. I guess we'll have to wait and see.
Overall, I give disappearance an 8/10. A very good movie, but I thought it dragged on at times.
Vegard Aune
2010-04-12, 01:25
So best scene of the movie goes to?
A) The train terminal, complete with bookmark ticket, and Alt!Yuki hold Kyon's sleeve and Haruhi waiting on the other side.
B) Kyon vs Inner Kyon, complete with borderline hate crime face stomping.
C) Kyon x Nagato moment on the hospital roof, complete with a make shift traditional Japanese wedding veil and Kyon on one knee.
D) Nagato's super cute reaction after the credits.
E) None of the above.
Either B or E.
For the record, "E" would in this case be Asakura stabbing Kyon. That was genuine Nightmare Fuel right there.
Season 2 (or 3..depending on your thought on what Haruhi 2009 was) will answer that...maybe. I sort of remember the part of a following novel (7 I think) that dealt with the aftermath of those events...but it has been a few years since I read that one.
Correct. The prologue of Volume 7 contains the resolution of Disappearance.
Oh, volume 7, ic... Thanks, I'm going to check it soon :D
E) None of the above.
Ryoko's final scene. Psychopathic Ryoko is gloriously psychopathic...C) is close if only for the incredible background. And you just knew KyoAni had to work in a sad emotionless girl in snow somehow...
Correct. The prologue of Volume 7 contains the resolution of Disappearance.
I really thought that was done very well... come on... when Kyon said "Yuki..." and that sorta knee-jerk reaction Nagato had... that was good... too bad for her that "Yuki.." was just really yuki...
Am, I really the only one who thought that final scene after the credits was extremely cute... and only makes me only want to hug Nagato even more?
Well, that was really great... it even managed to live up to the gigantic hype for me, and that's quite a feat. I'm glad I managed to avoid most spoilers, I knew the overall plot but that was it. Kyon getting
stabbed by Asakura made me jumped out of my seat. Wow. I can't wait for the blu-ray now !
Kaioshin Sama
2010-04-12, 19:15
Starting over since my reflection was deleted as I was writing it.
About 30 minutes into the movie and have to appreciate the animation quality. When it's good it's good. Also looks like Kyoani went and made themselves a signature logo, though what a floating planet has to do with anything I'm not sure. Anyway they are coming along in that regard, but unfortunately this work is suffering from the same problem as all of their works so far and the same problems I've always found the Haruhi franchise to have.
For all the franchises glitzy animation I still find roughly 80% of the cast intolerable and underdeveloped even after 2 14 episode seasons of them. As expected Mikuru is exploited, Haruhi is obnoxious (and especially overacted by Hirano in this particular movie) and Yuki just kind of sits there like a statue for the time being. Plus Taniguchi is also pretty annoying during his bit and thus I find myself turning to Kyon. It says something when he's still the only character I really find tolerable and I find myself actually becoming more engrossed in the scenes that are just him alone or talking with another one of the male characters as opposed to one of the moe moe girls. Still the pacing so far is atrocious and I find my interest starting to wane.
Things picked up a little bit after the actual Disappearance part and I find the absence of Haruhi a huge refresher...but then I remember from the book that she's not really gone and I die just a little more inside.
The scene with Asakura's reintroduction was bloody hilarious if you ask me. The whole slasher villain feel as she strolls up acting all cutesy and polite actually slayed me quite a bit. What followed it with Kyon going absolutely ballastic over the lack of Haruhi was also pretty amusing, proving once again that the only scenes that really succeed in this franchise for me are the ones involving Kyon since honestly Sugita Tomokazu is about the only actor good enough to carry a particular scene IMO besides Yuko Goto who is unfortunately stuck with a dumb as rocks character to play.
Gotta take a break....I'll be back to finish up the movie (thank god I have this option), but it's easily the best thing that Kyoto Animation has produced in a long time even if I want to most of the characters to suffer some horrible fate and for the pacing to pick up already. Strip all the hype/fanboyism away from this affair and I think we still actually have something going here for a change which is a huge relief and surprise. Of course the night and the movie is still young.....
What's with all the shots of people's feet in this movie? It's just a little weird as all and it's like the 5th time I've noticed one so far. Maybe it's because much of this movie so far has been composed of Kyon walking around for the most part. Anyway Kyon talking to Mikuru came across a LOT creepier than it did in the book....like wow....in this case I can't blame Tsuruya at all for using Self-Defense techniques on him whereas in the book it came across more like a misunderstanding and nothing more. Anyway Kyon's apparently a huge wimp if that maneuver somehow hurt that much with her arm on the bottom of the lock, which come to think of it would have made it extremely breakable. Maybe he just likes playing the sub by this point, who knows....he does seem to actually like hanging around Haruhi now. And Mikuru's thing....that was not a punch lol. Oh Mikuru....
Speaking of submissive, the creepy scene is over and another kind of creepy scene with Alt!Nagato starts up. I have to say she wasn't anywhere near as gag me with a spoon moe as I had anticipated and other than her saying a lot more than usual she didn't really strike me as all that much different from the usual Nagato baring a tendency towards more facial expressions. Not what I was expecting at all, but not complaining either as it's somehow more intriguing to see this way if still creepy as hell.
Hmmmm....this is starting to feel a little drawn out again though. I'm almost wanting him to find Haruhi so that we can get moving with the narrative here. This movie obviously had a really high budget though and they want to show off every little bit of it so I guess we're going to stare at some pretty background scenery for a little while longer. In fact I kind of regret what I said about the scenes with Kyon only earlier as this is starting to get surprisingly dull watching him walk sullenly around the school for the past 15 or so minutes straight. I'm not even really noticing the gorgeous animation anymore because it's starting to all blend together into one long walk cycle.
Something finally happening now at around the 55 minute mark with Kyon very slowly figuring out to do with the key that real Nagato seems to have left him. Nothing seems to come of it though...at least not yet.
Well Kyon's walking Nagato home it seems, maybe something will actually come of this scene....then again maybe not. We've got a boring sarcastic guying drinking tea with a girl that barely talks. Just when I thought this movie couldn't possibly get any more dull at this point. Oi Oi Oi....... :rolleyes: We've hit the one hour mark so something has got to start happening again soon.
Yeah I think we've figured out that Haruhi is missing and that a lot of things are different now Kyon, thank you for the extended exposition. Now can you please get to actually doing something? Jesus it's like with his indecisiveness at the end of each Endless Eight repeat all over again. Just be a man and do something, cause you know nobody here is really going to be able to help you.
Look even the guy doing the filming at a dutch angle seems to be getting restless since he keeps shifting his weight and coughing/groaning a little.
Haha, okay the scene with Asakura in the elevator was pretty interesting and telling that this versions is obsessed with and overprotective of Nagato. Actualy character development is nice.
This is dragging pretty bad at this point as I had heard it would from some of the reviews I've read and the Daily Show is coming on so I'm going to go take another break. I get the feeling it's about to finally pick up though so hopefully that is the case when I get back in 30.
Good episode of the Daily Show...well back to the movie then.
Finally things starting to happen again as Kyon finds Haruhi and Koizumi is the first person to prove useful in this whole affair. I always kind of liked his character too for when Kyon is being especially dull and sullen. 60 minutes into the Disappearance event and finally Kyon is able to figure out that this is an alternate dimension through sheer dumb luck....wow. Still kind of tempted to fast forward through this whole part as it's bloody obvious to anyone watching by this point who has at least a quarter of a brain what is going on.
Hahaha! Haruhi looks so smug in that one shot of her in the back of the car. And don't worry kids, there's no nudity in this film, just gym outfit fetishes being fulfilled.
This scene with Haruhi doing what she always does with Mikuru set to orchestral music is probably the most surreal thing I've seen in this film so far actually. So now everybody is gathered in the classroom again and really there's not a whole lot different from this alternate universe anymore is there?
I actually forgot about this part from the book. So the whole point was to gather the group to the clubroom for regular Nagato to be able to communicate with them eh? Looks like we're getting back to the intrigue of the first season a little bit. Kyon even gathered up some balls and told everybody to be quiet so that he can concentrate.
That part with Yuki (I think?) saying she won't forgive Kyon after he works the escape program was pretty telling.
Cool, so we're back to the day three years ago with a Back to The Future Part II like scenario to try to fix the timeline. In fact now that I think of it this whole movie kind of reminds me of Back To The Future II if back to the future II had dragged horribly during it's first half instead of showing off that cool future world and keeping things interesting for the casual audience. To be fair though this is definitely starting to get interesting again finally and it's these parts of the franchise that I actually really do like a lot and wish they'd do more of.
Yugo Goto always gets to shine as the adult version of Mikuru. I love these parts where she actually gets to sound kind of sexy and intelligent instead of like a mewling cat.
Hahaha, I liked how spooked young Haruhi acted when Kyon called out the John Sumisu line to her.
One thing I noticed that is consistently good about this movies animation versus the TV series is that usually any shot of a window shows it filled with eye searing bright light as if the sun is directly outside the window itself. Not so in this movie where there's actually an outside world that is shown and drawn in striking detail.
Chihara Minori's creepy whisper voice that she uses for Nagato's exposition dialogue still gives me uncomfortable shivers even now.
Yeah I wouldn't be jabbing a needle some girl randomly conjured up out of her glasses into myself either Kyon. Your a dull man, but an introspective and cautious one. Anyway that little blocky animation they used when Nagato rearranged the thing into a gun reminds me of something but I can't think of what.
Hmmm...does Nagato biting Kyon classify as a fetish or not? I'm leaning towards yes considering how long they held the particular shot for and how they even give it a cutaway.
Leaving this up to Kyon strikes me as a horribly bad idea. The way this guy meanders and gets all introspective I can see why there's still another 40 minutes left to this movie.
Finally made it to the two hour mark and I guess I'm ready for the finale. Right now I'm thinking that it's not so much Disappearance that is the highlight of this franchise so much as any part surrounding the events that took place during the Tanabata Festival and Kyon getting a chance to be the anime equivalent Marty Mcfly. Going to take one more break and then come back to finish this off once and for all.
Alright let's finish this off:
Holy shit it was Nagato all along. Well hot damn. This was actually the only real option in the book so I saw this plot twist coming even the first time I read it but whatever.
Anyway so Yuki used THE POWER to alter the world and erase the Data Entity (not even going to get into how this seems to contradict everything we've been told about Haruhi, Yuki and the Data Entity's powers up until now, which is my biggest problem with this movies plot) and all so that Kyon could catch a break from all of this insanity. What a gal....but if she's so advanced a being wouldn't she have realized that this would have caused him even more distress anyway? Good god this plot....
Kyoani glamour shots of the sky just because.....
I'm assuming I'm supposed to feel something regarding Nagato's discovery of emotions, but it's just not happening. Nagato's literally been such an object up to this point that I just feel nothing regarding her "character" beyond her appearance and use as an exposition device. Nagato really doesn't have a personality so again why should I feel anything regarding what's going on with Nagato.
Kyon introspection set to stock footage. Been here before.....
Wow the part with Kyon talking to himself in text is a pretty brazen ripoff of the train scenes from Evangelion. Still the surreal visual symbolism being used is another one of those clever moments the franchise has on occassion.
Oh my god they just had Kyon proclaim that Asahina is a moe character inside the actual monologue itself. I'm going to need a few minutes. :heh::heh::heh:
They keep using that shot of somebody reflected in somebody's eyes, glasses or a window in this movie. They really are trying to impress with the visuals as much as possible, but to what real end?
WHOA AND THERE'S THE RANDOM STABBING! So it really did happen completely out of nowhere just like in the novel. Gotta get some random violence into this storyline before it's over eh?
This dramatic music and Asakura's smiling face is just making this whole scene come across as laughable rather than the tense atmosphere I think they are going for.
Yep that sure is a lot of blood.....
Seriously what is this...she's just spinning in place and acting all smiles and giggles. This is just ridiculously portrayed. :heh: I can't believe it but I'm in a toss-up situation between whether I prefer the novel version of not knowing what the hell is going on during this seen or this silliness.
Time Paradoxes.....
The scene with Haruhi by Kyon's bedside is one of the few parts of the franchise that I think shows any sort of progress in their relationship up to this point. Glad they included it. It was also kind of funny how they woke her up. Seriously you have no idea how satisfying and amusing it was seeing her struggle around in a sleeping bag and be at a situational disadvantage for a change. One of the highlights of the movie for me. :D
In fact this whole ending scene is probably the highlight of the movie for me proving that yes indeed Kyoani did once again save the best for the beginning and the ending while making me suffer through a middling er...middle.
And the world is safe again for Haruhiism. The End
Well that was overall pretty darn good considering how the first hour went. The first part as I mentioned dragged horribly and really made me question whether I wanted to continue watching, but it eventually got going and ended up being well worth my time. I kind of equate it to the anime equivalent of Avatar along with the obvious comparisons to Back To The Future Part II I mentioned. Gorgeous animation quality, decentish story with a few inconsistencies and plot holes here and there that make you question the whole thing by the end. Certainly a far way from the masterpiece it's been hyped as (no surprise) but kind of feels like my first summer blockbuster of the year all the same. Enjoyed parts of it, suffered through others, will probably forget about it soon enough.
Not quite sure how to take that...critic...of the movie.
Ice Block
2010-04-13, 01:52
a few inconsistencies and plot holes here and there
Really? There were no plot holes or inconsistencies, just some possibly confusing scenarios. Lay them out so we can help you understand them.
Kaioshin Sama
2010-04-13, 02:14
Really? There were no plot holes or inconsistencies, just some possibly confusing scenarios. Lay them out so we can help you understand them.
If Nagato is capable of altering reality so that Haruhi is powerless and she is an extension of the Data Entity then that means the data entity should be capable of manipulating Haruhi as well. Why not then just forgo sending Nagato and Asakura to observe her as an agent and manipulate Haruhi in a controlled experiment of it's own so that they can understand the nature of her power and what it means. In fact if the Data Entity is capable of superseding Haruhi's powers and taking them away from her then why even pay her any mind in the first place? It makes Haruhi look less important and threatening to the Data Entity then the earlier seasons and novels showed and seems to contradict what they said about her abilities in them as well.
Not quite sure how to take that...critic...of the movie.
I can't tell you how, but might I suggest taking it like Haruhi takes daily life? Looking to be impressed but instead finding what is ultimately fairly dull drawn out and hollow fair by my standards but with bits of intrigue woven in here and there to just barely help me maintain enough interest to press on and make something of the experience in my own way.
Keep in mind that my expectations were pretty much rock bottom and that I wasn't buying any of the hype going in knowing all to well that just goes with the product and brand. I was expecting it to leave me completely out in the cold so the fact that it turned out to have some real merits during some scenes (especially the post-climax ones) ultimately made me want to call it relatively good. Basically I graded it on a curve, but it also helped that the animation was outstanding and thus went a long way in me giving the movie some praise.
Game8910
2010-04-13, 02:20
actually seeing Kaioshin say it was worth his time should be enough to prove the movie was successful in 1 way or another :heh:
I see. Though I would point out that being able to use Haruhi's powers is not enough for the Data Entity...They want and need to understand her power so they can use it for their own purpose. They don't understand why Nagato did what she did...it seems beyond their reasoning (since it was classed as an error). They might not even know how she did it because of that error.
It is not enough to just have a power. If their goal is to "evolve" with it, like Nagato states back in the first season, they need to understand how it works, and why it works, in order to actually evolve.
Kaioshin Sama
2010-04-13, 02:52
I see. Though I would point out that being able to use Haruhi's powers is not enough for the Data Entity...They want and need to understand her power so they can use it for their own purpose. They don't understand why Nagato did what she did...it seems beyond their reasoning (since it was classed as an error). They might not even know how she did it because of that error.
It is not enough to just have a power. If their goal is to "evolve" with it, like Nagato states back in the first season, they need to understand how it works, and why it works, in order to actually evolve.
Which is why I said that it makes no sense to just let her do her own thing unpredictably. If it can why not alter reality a little and work her into a controlled experiment where they can learn about her at an accelerated rate. Keep pressing her into situations like Asakura was going to try to in the first season by killing Kyon and analyze the data.
And how can the data entity not know what Nagato did if she is supposed to be an extension of it? There's just something incredibly hard to swallow about all of this is what I'm saying. I find it highly doubtful that an entity that is supposed to basically be omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent to the point where it can manipulate the fabric of multidimensional space is somehow unaware of it's own abilities. I think once you reach that point of advancement where you basically transcend time and space you should have a pretty good handle on your own capabilities.
Plus if the Data Entity really somehow can't understand what Nagato did as an extension of itself (and I still don't buy that it can't) then it should really give up any hope of ever understanding Haruhi.
Let me go grab a reference book from my shelf because I want to compare this to contradiction in The Bible. Be back in a jiffy.
Edit: Okay it reminds me of The Bible where they could never quite decide on whether god was Omniscient or not.
Can anyone hide in secret places so that I cannot see him?" declares the lord. "Do not I fill heaven and earth?" declares the lord. (Jeremiah 23:24)
That's the kind of data entity the first book seemed to portray and the answer was no. Now though you're telling me it's more like Genesis 4:9 where
Then the Lord said to Cain, "Where is your brother Abel?"
Which is it? Omniscience or blindness?
Perhaps a better comparison would be to Dr. Manhattan from Watchmen though. Dr. Manhattan abilities while seemingly making him omniscient and omnipotent to the point where he could manipulate the fabric of reality were defined as having some limits. I don't recall anything of the sort being introduced with the data entity.
If Nagato is capable of altering reality so that Haruhi is powerless and she is an extension of the Data Entity then that means the data entity should be capable of manipulating Haruhi as well. Why not then just forgo sending Nagato and Asakura to observe her as an agent and manipulate Haruhi in a controlled experiment of it's own so that they can understand the nature of her power and what it means. In fact if the Data Entity is capable of superseding Haruhi's powers and taking them away from her then why even pay her any mind in the first place? It makes Haruhi look less important and threatening to the Data Entity then the earlier seasons and novels showed and seems to contradict what they said about her abilities in them as well.
I do not see why you ever believed the Data Overmind saw Haruhi as a threat. Yuki made clear in Sighs that they don't give a damn to what Haruhi does on Earth 'cause they will survive anyway (or so they thought before Disappearance).
For why they don't just steal her power, that is just not their objectives, obviously. They can take over Haruhi's power but that don't mean they will be able to fully use it, that is why they are just observing her for the time being, they have all time of the world, after all.
Other possibility is that the power can only be used by organic life forms, so just their interfaces could use it for them. Since two out of three we know have since gone rogue, I doubt they will rely on it.
In any case, you shouldn't be quick to say 'plot hole' without thinking on it a bit. I realize my second theory is too much reasoning, only made so Kyon action in the end of the movie don't become pointless, but my first one is pretty reasonable. It was said more then once their objectives is just to observe, no reason to think they will suddenly change their minds (although, Ryouko said it was a possibility).
I can't tell you how, but might I suggest taking it like Haruhi takes daily life?
Too much bitter feelings eh? Anyway, I can surely understand Ithekro, you comments outside the spoilers were quite reasonable and well thought, even if I don't agree with some. The rest, however, it is filled with pointless sarcasm and mockery. You took the two scenes most said it was (at last) "great" and called it 'rip-off' and narmy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Narm) without really explaining why. You should understand why people get annoyed.
Also, they way you wrote it in a fan-filled community was like asking for a fight. Even if you was correct, you should review how do you says something and where.
PP:
Which is why I said that it makes no sense to just let her do her own thing unpredictably. If it can why not alter reality a little and work her into a controlled experiment where they can learn about her at an accelerated rate. Keep pressing her into situations like Asakura was going to try to in the first season by killing Kyon and analyze the data.
You fail to understand there is no real need to or that is not what they agree with. As it is obvious, at last some of then think on it, give the whole Asakura incident. However, it was never said they could (or know how) just freely manipulate all the want. They have no rush 'cause they are eternal, so they can just keep watching.
And how can the data entity not know what Nagato did if she is supposed to be an extension of it? There's just something incredibly hard to swallow about all of this is what I'm saying. I find it highly doubtful that an entity that is supposed to basically be omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent to the point where it can manipulate the fabric of multidimensional space is somehow unaware of it's own abilities. I think once you reach that point of advancement where you basically transcend time and space you should have a pretty good handle on your own capabilities.
It was never said, or even implied, they can see everything Nagatos do or that she can't hide from them for a moment. Also, I don't remember if it was said in the movie, but I remember that Nagato had been put some restrains after it, so I assume that she was more or less free before the events of the movie. The data Overmind trusted her.
Plus if the Data Entity really somehow can't understand what Nagato did as an extension of itself (and I still don't buy that it can't) then it should really give up any hope of ever understanding Haruhi.
Not a real plot hole, you know. I think you are probably right.
What the Data Entity seem to be after is the ability to make something from nothing. They can manipulate data extremely well...but they can't make something from nothing. Haruhi appears to be able to do this somehow. What Nagato did was not that. She altered what was there in a Haruhi like way using Haruhi's power....but she didn't create it from nothing like Haruhi does is making new universes.
Or at least that seems to be the explaination. One problem (or prehaps it is a feature) of this series is that we don't have all the facts...and we can't tell if the information we are getting, not only from the three factions, but even from the narrator, is in fact true. Kyon is not a reliable narrator. That seems to be one of the quirks that make things interesting. We don't know if Mikuru's faction is telling Kyon the truth. We don't know if Itsuki's theories are correct or he he's lying all the time. We don't even know if Yuki is telling the truth. I'm more inclined to believe Yuki because she even stated that what she says, Kyon might not believe to be true, and that their was no way for her to prove anything. Her style suggests she's being honest more often than not. This could prove false at some later date...but for now...all the informations we have is what we have...via Kyon. The Kyon who might be leaving things out of his story...including his own name.
What the Data Entity seem to be after is the ability to make something from nothing. They can manipulate data extremely well...but they can't make something from nothing. Haruhi appears to be able to do this somehow. What Nagato did was not that. She altered what was there in a Haruhi like way using Haruhi's power....but she didn't create it from nothing like Haruhi does is making new universes.
Oh, right now you said it sounds pretty obvious.
Or at least that seems to be the explaination. One problem (or prehaps it is a feature) of this series is that we don't have all the facts...and we can't tell if the information we are getting, not only from the three factions, but even from the narrator, is in fact true. Kyon is not a reliable narrator. That seems to be one of the quirks that make things interesting. We don't know if Mikuru's faction is telling Kyon the truth. We don't know if Itsuki's theories are correct or he he's lying all the time. We don't even know if Yuki is telling the truth. I'm more inclined to believe Yuki because she even stated that what she says, Kyon might not believe to be true, and that their was no way for her to prove anything. Her style suggests she's being honest more often than not. This could prove false at some later date...but for now...all the informations we have is what we have...via Kyon. The Kyon who might be leaving things out of his story...including his own name.
That is why I hate people who call 'plot hole' flippantly. Even if it is finished, just because something was not explained it don't mean it is a plot hole. It can mean it was poorly explained, and you can complain about that.
Talking about plot holes in a unfinished work can only be done if the facts contradict themselves pretty badly, in a way it can not be fixed latter. It was not near the case here.
Guys, we're getting into spoiler territory here. Might wanna stick some boxes up or switch to the other thread.
I've read the novel so I'm familiar with the plot, but I'm holding off on seeing the movie until it's better quality (the flickering of camrips is too much for me, so I know not to even try).
You realize this would have been 8 episodes long had it be part of the season? But the break points are not in neat little 20 minute segments...though that didn't stop Sigh from breaking almost mid-sentance. But for the efffect to work correctly...I suppose a movie was the best way to show this story.
(The hard part of spoilers is figuring out just what is a spoiler and what isn't, and how to have a conversation about something without it being spoilers but still getting a point across...it is touchy, and I'm not sure where to spoiler in this case and where not too do so)
Spoiler tags added, sorry about that.
It might be simpler just move all posts since Kaioshin-san review to the other thread, however.
Btw, the camrip is way better then I thought it would be. Not near to be 'good', of course, it certanly worth waiting for a better quality, but it have surprised me.
PP:
You realize this would have been 8 episodes long had it be part of the season? But the break points are not in neat little 20 minute segments...though that didn't stop Sigh from breaking almost mid-sentance. But for the efffect to work correctly...I suppose a movie was the best way to show this story.
Eh, are you talking to me or keri? IT don't seen to fit either way.
(The hard part of spoilers is figuring out just what is a spoiler and what isn't, and how to have a conversation about something without it being spoilers but still getting a point across...it is touchy, and I'm not sure where to spoiler in this case and where not too do so)
That is why the other thread exist. In any case, pretty much anything that happened on the movie is 'spoiler', as well as any content from latter novels.
Kaioshin Sama
2010-04-13, 03:40
What the Data Entity seem to be after is the ability to make something from nothing. They can manipulate data extremely well...but they can't make something from nothing. Haruhi appears to be able to do this somehow. What Nagato did was not that. She altered what was there in a Haruhi like way using Haruhi's power....but she didn't create it from nothing like Haruhi does is making new universes.
Or at least that seems to be the explaination. One problem (or prehaps it is a feature) of this series is that we don't have all the facts...and we can't tell if the information we are getting, not only from the three factions, but even from the narrator, is in fact true. Kyon is not a reliable narrator. That seems to be one of the quirks that make things interesting. We don't know if Mikuru's faction is telling Kyon the truth. We don't know if Itsuki's theories are correct or he he's lying all the time. We don't even know if Yuki is telling the truth. I'm more inclined to believe Yuki because she even stated that what she says, Kyon might not believe to be true, and that their was no way for her to prove anything. Her style suggests she's being honest more often than not. This could prove false at some later date...but for now...all the informations we have is what we have...via Kyon. The Kyon who might be leaving things out of his story...including his own name.
Again back to one of my other problems with all of this, so much hullabaloo was made about trying to discover the secret about Haruhi's abilities in the first novel and then in this one they go and have her powers superseded by Nagato like it was effortless. Also here's another thing, have we actually seen Haruhi do anything that resembles creating something from nothing? Where's the difference in what Nagato did here? I don't think there is one at this point.
And this kind of builds into my argument that it's hard to build an attachment to any aspect of the franchise when it still doesn't seem to have defined anything about itself and it's characters by this point. When it seems like the franchise just keep changing the rules and emphasis based on which characters are popular (and I know Tanigawa has said that Nagato is his favourite character too) it also makes it hard to build any attachment to anything the franchise throws at you. Ever seen Gundam Seed Destiny? Same basic problem I had with how they wrote for the characters in that show. I'm not really playing favourites since I don't really have one, but I can't help but deny that it feels like they've just switched the focus away from Haruhi as a source of intrigue in this series and shifted it towards Nagato to respond to her popularity. It just feels cheap to me somehow and like Haruhi is somehow less important an entity then she came across as in the first novel out of the blue.
Too much bitter feelings eh? Anyway, I can surely understand Ithekro, you comments outside the spoilers were quite reasonable and well thought, even if I don't agree with some. The rest, however, it is filled with pointless sarcasm and mockery. You took the two scenes most said it was (at last) "great" and called it 'rip-off' and narmy without really explaining why. You should understand why people get annoyed.
Also, they way you wrote it in a fan-filled community was like asking for a fight. Even if you was correct, you should review how do you says something and where.
Which scenes where those? Perhaps I can elaborate if you tell me what specifically you were referring too.
Also you should know I'm not one of those types who are terribly worried about whether people will like what I say about their favourite shows or not. I'm not really bothered if people think my commentary is too harsh or sarcastic or that it looks like I'm picking a fight. They are free to disagree and to respond however they feel like. I know a lot of people are die hard about this franchise in particular, but I still don't feel like that should stop me from being honest about how I feel about it's entries. If you're expecting me to go along with what others are saying and just throw away my full candid reaction by proclaiming that it's a perfect flawless movie to avoid stepping on the fandom's toes then you're asking the impossible I'm afraid.
Spoiler tags added, sorry about that.
It might be simpler just move all posts since Kaioshin-san review to the other thread, however.
It's not a review by the way, just reaction and commentary.
(The hard part of spoilers is figuring out just what is a spoiler and what isn't, and how to have a conversation about something without it being spoilers but still getting a point across...it is touchy, and I'm not sure where to spoiler in this case and where not too do so)
Basically, if it's details about the plot of Disappearance or other stories not shown in the tv airings, it's a spoiler when it comes to this thread.
The number of potentially spoilerish posts increased quite a bit when the camrip came out, and the last forty or so posts have been getting pretty close to the line or crossing it completely. I figure it's just excitement about the movie, but it helps to be reminded that some of us are still patiently waiting for a DVD/BluRay version before we see the thing and we want to be able to choose whether or not we read spoilers.
The comment on the length of the movie translated to episodes was purely something I just thought of randomly.
As for the Data Entity being omniscient....if they were...why would they need observers in the first place? This would indicate they are not omniscient. They are aliens of some sort. Highly advanced, but they are short of being omniscient. That might be part of what they are after though that is hard to confirm. Partly because Yuki doesn't say that and she says that verbal comunications with Kyon might result in errors in the data being given to Kyon. Also his limited understanding of the concepts limits us since he's the one giving us the story.
Technology that is advanced enough can seem like magic. (perhaps even to Mikuru's people)
The question still remains...does Haruhi classify as a god like Itsuki claims? Yuki and Mikuru's groups don't have that opinion of Haruhi, yet she does things neither group can define..so they observe for their own purposes. For Mikuru's group it seems to be to keep the time line stable. For Yuki's group it is to gain whatever this power is for some purpose we don't fully understand (via Kyon). Thus the question remains...what is Haruhi?
No matter who the story is focused on...Haruhi is still the reason for everything, and thus still the center of attention by the end. Be it some event that they need to keep from Haruhi so she doesn't find out about her powers, or be it something else that happens as a result of her powers...it is still all about Haruhi (or Kyon actually and his trails and tribulations as a result of this one girl.....Haruhi Suzumiya).
Again back to one of my other problems with all of this, so much hullabaloo was made about trying to discover the secret about Haruhi's abilities in the first novel and then in this one they go and have her powers superseded by Nagato like it was effortless.
Your interpretation alone. A bit weird, but not too much. Do not know about any 'hullabaloo'.
Also here's another thing, have we actually seen Haruhi do anything that resembles creating something from nothing? Where's the difference in what Nagato did here? I don't think there is one at this point.
Mikuru's eyes in Sighs are the only thing I can think of. There is also the subtle transformation of the air gun in a water one, the transformation itself is just manipulation (Nagato can probably do it by herself), but then, where did the water come from? I am also not sure if Nagato-tachi can give intelligence to cats, even if they could make one to talk. To sum up, the whole Sighs is Haruhi creating stuff from nothing.
Anyway, Haruhi really mostly only do subtle alteration that are, indeed, not different from what Yuki usually does.
And this kind of builds into my argument that it's hard to build an attachment to any aspect of the franchise when it still doesn't seem to have defined anything about itself and it's characters by this point. When it seems like the franchise just keep changing the rules and emphasis based on which characters are popular (and I know Tanigawa has said that Nagato is his favourite character too) it also makes it hard to build any attachment to anything the franchise throws at you. Ever seen Gundam Seed Destiny? Same basic problem I had with how they wrote for the characters in that show. I'm not really playing favourites since I don't really have one, but I can't help but deny that it feels like they've just switched the focus away from Haruhi as a source of intrigue in this series and shifted it towards Nagato to respond to her popularity. It just feels cheap to me somehow and like Haruhi is somehow less important an entity then she came across as in the first novel out of the blue.
Your opinion. I agree with you a bit, tough. It seem clear for me Tanigawa made the first book as it was the only one of the series (and Boredom as an 'extra story'). He left some 'sequel hooks' but mostly tried to tie everything by then, so most of the 'rules' there are simplified in comparation with the rest of the series. I still think he had done a good job at getting consistent. It is true that Haruhi seems less powerful now, but it is too absurd and do not contradict the first novel.
Which scenes where those? Perhaps I can elaborate if you tell me what specifically you were referring too.
Sroyy, I meantThe "Kyon talking to himself" scene and the stabbing scene.
Btw, I don't watched that train scenes from Evangelion so I can't say it is a rip-off or not. I was just saying it is weird hearing it from you when everyone else has only praises to it.
Also you should know I'm not one of those types who are terribly worried about whether people will like what I say about their favourite shows or not. I'm not really bothered if people think my commentary is too harsh or sarcastic or that it looks like I'm picking a fight. They are free to disagree and to respond however they feel like. I know a lot of people are die hard about this franchise in particular, but I still don't feel like that should stop me from being honest about how I feel about it's entries. If you're expecting me to go along with what others are saying and just throw away my full candid reaction by proclaiming that it's a perfect flawless movie to avoid stepping on the fandom's toes then you're asking the impossible I'm afraid.
Well, you should try to not piss off people if you don't need to. It don't help you, or anyone, a bit, so why do that? Not saying you should lie or keep from being harsh if you think you should, but being sarcastic and mock is just bad. Your argument seems less serious and you piss people off. It is hard getting someone to agree with you, or even to pay attention on you. if you does that.
It is the same as not insulting someone even if the insult is fitting. Unless you believe the person with understand you are really trying to point something to him, they will just be offended and start a fight. I believe you are not a random internet troll who just want to piss people off, but not everyone will think that way, and no one took a troll seriously.
It's not a review by the way, just reaction and commentary.
Semantics. :p
Game8910
2010-04-13, 04:20
Mikuru's eyes in Sighs are the only thing I can think of. There is also the subtle transformation of the air gun in a water one, the transformation itself is just manipulation (Nagato can probably do it by herself), but then, where did the water come from? I am also not sure if Nagato-tachi can give intelligence to cats, even if they could make one to talk. To sum up, the whole Sighs is Haruhi creating stuff from nothing.
Anyway, Haruhi really mostly only do subtle alteration that are, indeed, not different from what Yuki usually does.
did you already forget the alternate universe at the end of Melancholy? That wasnt just turning this world into that, it was a completely new and separate dimension Haruhi created from nothing
Kaioshin Sama
2010-04-13, 04:27
As for the Data Entity being omniscient....if they were...why would they need observers in the first place? This would indicate they are not omniscient. They are aliens of some sort. Highly advanced, but they are short of being omniscient. That might be part of what they are after though that is hard to confirm. Partly because Yuki doesn't say that and she says that verbal comunications with Kyon might result in errors in the data being given to Kyon. Also his limited understanding of the concepts limits us since he's the one giving us the story.
I was always under the impression that it was for the purposes of communicating with lower beings if necessary. Why else would Nagato assume the form of Japanese girl and Asakura the same.
Technology that is advanced enough can seem like magic. (perhaps even to Mikuru's people)
Altering the fabric of reality in a drastic way like Nagato did could be classified as magic, or it could be classified as godlike.
The question still remains...does Haruhi classify as a god like Itsuki claims? Yuki and Mikuru's groups don't have that opinion of Haruhi, yet she does things neither group can define..so they observe for their own purposes. For Mikuru's group it seems to be to keep the time line stable. For Yuki's group it is to gain whatever this power is for some purpose we don't fully understand (via Kyon). Thus the question remains...what is Haruhi?
I would say her powers classifiable as godlike in a trickster way comparable to Q from Star Trek or the Ascended/Ori from Stargate. That's kind of how I picture the Data Entity to be honest.
No matter who the story is focused on...Haruhi is still the reason for everything, and thus still the center of attention by the end. Be it some event that they need to keep from Haruhi so she doesn't find out about her powers, or be it something else that happens as a result of her powers...it is still all about Haruhi (or Kyon actually and his trails and tribulations as a result of this one girl.....Haruhi Suzumiya).
Not this time. Nagato's "feelings" for Kyon seem to have been the reason for this particular data quake or whatever you want to call it. Haruhi was innocent this time and really had little to do with the story overall.
Your opinion. I agree with you a bit, tough. It seem clear for me Tanigawa made the first book as it was the only one of the series (and Boredom as an 'extra story'). He left some 'sequel hooks' but mostly tried to tie everything by then, so most of the 'rules' there are simplified in comparation with the rest of the series. I still think he had done a good job at getting consistent. It is true that Haruhi seems less powerful now, but it is too absurd and do not contradict the first novel.
You know I never thought about it in that way, but it does kind of make sense that that could be it. That happens a lot more often than most of us are probably aware.
I actually thought the scene with Kyon talking to himself was well done and interesting compared to most of them, but I still felt that it borrowed a bit from Evangelion for no reason that I can come to. It's just there because it's a popular imagery, which to me came across as a little pandering. As for the stabbing scene it just came across as unintentionally hammy and silly too me. The whole smiling and giggling Ryoko came across as perhaps unintentionally hilarious and without an undercurrent of malice or intimidation that was probably intended. Not to mention how sudden the violence was was and how it didn't do much to add anything to the current narrative beyond getting a little blood and action into the movie at the last minute. It just didn't work for me.
Again back to one of my other problems with all of this, so much hullabaloo was made about trying to discover the secret about Haruhi's abilities in the first novel and then in this one they go and have her powers superseded by Nagato like it was effortless. Also here's another thing, have we actually seen Haruhi do anything that resembles creating something from nothing? Where's the difference in what Nagato did here? I don't think there is one at this point.
Remember "Ponytails turn me on"? You've obviously forgotten the first season.
When it seems like the franchise just keep changing the rules and emphasis based on which characters are popular (and I know Tanigawa has said that Nagato is his favourite character too) it also makes it hard to build any attachment to anything the franchise throws at you.
Nagato's impending breakdown was foreshadowed with the subtly of a car crash. They aired it eight times for God sakes...
Did you really expect Nagato to remain the in the background the entire time?
Has it ever occurred to you that Nagato's popularity was BECAUSE of the author's focus on her and not the other way around?
Ever seen Gundam Seed Destiny? Same basic problem I had with how they wrote for the characters in that show. I'm not really playing favourites since I don't really have one, but I can't help but deny that it feels like they've just switched the focus away from Haruhi as a source of intrigue in this series and shifted it towards Nagato to respond to her popularity. It just feels cheap to me somehow and like Haruhi is somehow less important an entity then she came across as in the first novel out of the blue.
This is silly. Your entire argument is just a paranoid hypothesis built upon a mistaken assumption.
There isn't any evidence that the author switched the focus of the story away from Haruhi because of Yuki's popularity. When you Consider the fact that disappearance was written in 2004, well before the novels were mainstream, I REALLY doubt that this was some elaborate plot to pander to a fanbase that didn't even exist yet.
I was always under the impression that it was for the purposes of communicating with lower beings if necessary. Why else would Nagato assume the form of Japanese girl and Asakura the same.
It could be both, you know. Also, Nagato aways said her role was to observe, not to communicate. Yuki is pretty uncommunicative, actually, so this is hardly her main function (that would be Asakura and Kimudori, I supposed).
Altering the fabric of reality in a drastic way like Nagato did could be classified as magic, or it could be classified as godlike.
For us. For them, it is just 'technology' or 'science'. Haruhi, however, is close to magic to them, me thinks.
Not this time. Nagato's "feelings" for Kyon seem to have been the reason for this particular data quake or whatever you want to call it. Haruhi was innocent this time and really had little to do with the story overall.
I wouldn't say it was the feelings for Kyon alone but feelings in general. But, yeah, you are correct.
Btw, this is a huge spoiler, it is the main twist of the movie. Be sure to edit your post hidding it.
You know I never thought about it in that way, but it does kind of make sense that that could be it. That happens a lot more often than most of us are probably aware.
I think he had said something like that in an interview, but I could be wrong. Still, the first novel make much more sense if you think it that way. I remember this happening in other works as well, Runaways from Marvel Comics is the first exemple can remember from the top of my head. Sasameki Koto, a yuri manga, is another.
I actually thought the scene with Kyon talking to himself was well done and interesting compared to most of them, but I still felt that it borrowed a bit from Evangelion for no reason that I can come to. It's just there because it's a popular imagery, which to me came across as a little pandering.
I see. I found strange you calling it 'rip-off' because that word usually have very negative connotations. I might have borrowed from Evangelion, and it wouldn't be the first thing they took from it (kinda fitting, considering it is a Yuki Movie :heh:). Since it is awesome, despite being based in a famous scene (danm, I really need to finish Evangelion) there is no problem, IMO.
As for the stabbing scene it just came across as unintentionally hammy and silly too me. The whole smiling and giggling Ryoko came across as perhaps unintentionally hilarious and without an undercurrent of malice or intimidation that was probably intended. Not to mention how sudden the violence was was and how it didn't do much to add anything to the current narrative beyond getting a little blood and action into the movie at the last minute. It just didn't work for me.
For me, and other, the scene was good because it is 'silly'(although it is not the word I would use). I do not think it should be malicious or intimidating, but really weird in a Uncanny Valley way. Ryouko cheerfulness fit her character, she do not does what she does out of malice, she just don't understand quite well what it mean for other.
Also, the scene is actually pretty important, Yuki do not talk by herself so we need others talking for her. The whole purpose of that scene was showing Yuki, despite leaving a door open for Kyon, did not want he to interrupt her. Ryouko purpose was showing the duality in Yuki's mind.
That and bringing a popular character back, that is it. :p
Anyway, it is mostly matter of taste, I guess. It is a pitty you saw it as 'hilarious', but, since you are likely the exception, I wouldn't blame KyoAni for that
Kaioshin Sama
2010-04-13, 05:10
Remember "Ponytails turn me on"? You've obviously forgotten the first season.
If I had any idea what you were talking about I'd have more to say than this. I guess that means you sure got me on this one didn't you. :uhoh:
Nagato's impending breakdown was foreshadowed with the subtly of a car crash. They aired it eight times for God sakes...
I don't buy that for one second actually. People keep using that as a means to link Endless Eight to what happened in this movie, but that's something that can only be done purely at the will of the viewer since Nagato showed zero emotion throughout that whole affair. I choose not to attach feelings to a character based on something that might not actually be there or related to a specific event. That's the sort of thing fan-fiction is for, not for canon which is what I'm concerned about.
Did you really expect Nagato to remain the in the background the entire time?
No but I didn't really expect her to steal the show out from under the title character the way she did in Disappearance. Like I said if Nagato can just do whatever to Haruhi then it makes the intrigue of the character just that much lesser. The real question I'm asking is why undermine your title character's intrigue like that after going to all the trouble to pose the god or not question like Koizumi did in the first novel? After all the entire basis of Haruhiism and a large chunk of the franchises popularity seems to be built along with the faction that believes she's god incarnate in the franchises universe and what Nagato did pretty much dispels that idea completely. I would think this would be more a source of concern and debate for a fandom as devoted as the Haruhi franchises, but I guess their concerns are different from mine. So far I seem to be the only person that has ever brought it up for discussion.
Has it ever occurred to you that Nagato's popularity was BECAUSE of the author's focus on her and not the other way around?
I thought it was because the whole quiet bookish girl thing was a popular moe fetish to be honest.
This is silly. Your entire argument is just a paranoid hypothesis built upon a mistaken assumption.
Is that like how the entire argument that Nagato acted the way she did in the movie because of Endless Eight was an assumption or are we talking in different terms here. Anyway I completely botched what I meant to say in that quote so it doesn't really matter I suppose.
The bit about responding to the characters popularity was an aside because I know that kind of thing happens all the time over there, the cheated feeling is definitely there because the intrigue about Haruhi's powers and why the Data Entity would want to study her are kind of gone now that it's been shown that she's hardly all that powerful at all compared to Nagato or the Data Entity. If that's the course they want to pursue now then so be it. I'm just saying that it strikes me as inconsistent with the way they were building her abilities in the first novel. The whole desperately trying to understand her bit that the Data Entity has going on takes a blow when you can just toss her into an alternate reality and completely rewrite her memories from beyond a certain point in time. Again I guess my concerns just aren't the same as the core fanbases here.
There isn't any evidence that the author switched the focus of the story away from Haruhi because of Yuki's popularity. When you Consider the fact that disappearance was written in 2004, well before the novels were mainstream, I REALLY doubt that this was some elaborate plot to pander to a fanbase that didn't even exist yet.
What? :eyebrow:
did you already forget the alternate universe at the end of Melancholy? That wasnt just turning this world into that, it was a completely new and separate dimension Haruhi created from nothing
This just made me think of another set of questions. If Nagato can't create data from scratch then how is Ryoko there in the movie if she's supposed to have been removed from existence already? How is she there and alive again and who created her if not the data entity since in the current timeline that's how she was supposed to have been made? If the data entity exists then why isn't it doing something to fix what Nagato broke on it's own? If it doesn't exist how does Ryoko exist unless Nagato somehow created her to exist in the alternate timeline? If she can make Ryoko exist again then how is that any different from what Haruhi does by supposedly creating "data" which the Data Entity and it's subordinates supposedly can't do? Furthermore if the Data Entity created Nagato and Ryoko as sentient beings then how is that any different from what Haruhi does? There are more questions I could raise here but I'll just leave it at that for now since I'm going to bed.
Regarding Ryoko, she isn't 'removed', per se. It's more the DITE stripped her down and put her somewhere else, or really that all humanoid interfaces are part of the DITE itself.
Which is why I said that it makes no sense to just let her do her own thing unpredictably. If it can why not alter reality a little and work her into a controlled experiment where they can learn about her at an accelerated rate. Keep pressing her into situations like Asakura was going to try to in the first season by killing Kyon and analyze the data.
And how can the data entity not know what Nagato did if she is supposed to be an extension of it? There's just something incredibly hard to swallow about all of this is what I'm saying. I find it highly doubtful that an entity that is supposed to basically be omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent to the point where it can manipulate the fabric of multidimensional space is somehow unaware of it's own abilities. I think once you reach that point of advancement where you basically transcend time and space you should have a pretty good handle on your own capabilities.
Plus if the Data Entity really somehow can't understand what Nagato did as an extension of itself (and I still don't buy that it can't) then it should really give up any hope of ever understanding Haruhi.
Let me go grab a reference book from my shelf because I want to compare this to contradiction in The Bible. Be back in a jiffy.
Edit: Okay it reminds me of The Bible where they could never quite decide on whether god was Omniscient or not.
Can anyone hide in secret places so that I cannot see him?" declares the lord. "Do not I fill heaven and earth?" declares the lord. (Jeremiah 23:24)
That's the kind of data entity the first book seemed to portray and the answer was no. Now though you're telling me it's more like Genesis 4:9 where
Then the Lord said to Cain, "Where is your brother Abel?"
Which is it? Omniscience or blindness?
Perhaps a better comparison would be to Dr. Manhattan from Watchmen though. Dr. Manhattan abilities while seemingly making him omniscient and omnipotent to the point where he could manipulate the fabric of reality were defined as having some limits. I don't recall anything of the sort being introduced with the data entity.
We all just need to bow down to Kaioshin... apparently he is able to completely understand such an obscure existence such as the data entity... we are not worthy to be communicating with such a being... he/she is able to understand the will of god... we truly are not worthy... *bows to Kaioshin-sama*
Haters will hate.
baltakatei
2010-04-13, 08:19
This just made me think of another set of questions. If Nagato can't create data from scratch then how is Ryoko there in the movie if she's supposed to have been removed from existence already? How is she there and alive again and who created her if not the data entity since in the current timeline that's how she was supposed to have been made? If the data entity exists then why isn't it doing something to fix what Nagato broke on it's own? If it doesn't exist how does Ryoko exist unless Nagato somehow created her to exist in the alternate timeline? If she can make Ryoko exist again then how is that any different from what Haruhi does by supposedly creating "data" which the Data Entity and it's subordinates supposedly can't do? Furthermore if the Data Entity created Nagato and Ryoko as sentient beings then how is that any different from what Haruhi does? There are more questions I could raise here but I'll just leave it at that for now since I'm going to bed.
Those questions have also been sitting in the back of my mind, waiting to be resolved.
I believe any attempt at a full explanation of the exact Haruhi - ISDE relationship to be impossible given the current revealed information.
Like you say, the act of "data creation" that Haruhi is capable of sounds too much like technobabble.
Basically, Tanigawa has thrown several variables at us and hasn't given us enough correlations to solve the system. It's a real mess. He doesn't seem too concerned with explaining the rules of the Haruhi-verse as he keeps introducing new characters in order to keep the audiences entertained.
I don't think Tanigawa meant for the novels to provide us with any deep insights into the nature of our universe beyond the character development that we can grasp of the SOS Brigade members. If he dabbles into speculative metaphysics it will be for simply the "wow" factor we feel when hearing some smartypants talk about something new.
As for the movie, knowing the nature of the different factions surrounding Haruhi isn't necessary to enjoy it. The movie's focus is Kyon, the normal human we can relate to. The people and environment around him have been changed by an unknown power. However, unlike in mindscrew stories such as Franz Kafka's The Metamorphosis, the main character's efforts to unravel the cause of the change is ultimately rewarded and his world mostly restored to its original track. Sure, Kyon conveniently found some well-planted phlebotinum that could allow him to work towards a solution. If that weren't the case, Mr. Kaioshin, you'd probably have stopped watching the movie out of boredom. But what I appreciate is that Kyon acted rationally and purposefully once he had a hint of how to proceed. "Okay, this note was written by the original Nagato. Nice. That means she still hasn't given up on me. That means a possibility for a resolution to my problem is possible. Now what can I do that is within my power?" It shows that a person can remain hopeful despite a huge obstacle being placed in front of them.
The problem with having Kyon be the guy who resolves the problem and progressing the story is that he's too darn close to the great goddess Nagato. Omnipotent characters are too boring to read about. When any problem comes up, he just has to ask his magic bookworm genie (who even in her original state obeys him at all times) for the solution and *zap* she hands him the solution. Disappearance is constructed so that whether or not Kyon is saved is dependent entirely upon his own initiative and effort. I can relate to that. You probably can too. It's how the world works for most of us. Want to get a job? Well, you'll have to learn a skill. That means study. Oh, and you'll have to navigate how to interview, how to network, etc. Wiping out the mystic qualities surrounding aliens and time travel makes Disappearance much more understandable and valuable.
But isn't that what makes the Haruhi universe so interesting? Aliens, time travelers, superhumans... Well, it made the first season interesting. But such gimicks really only work once.
/rant
quigonkenny
2010-04-13, 10:47
Then the Lord said to Cain, "Where is your brother Abel?"
LOL. You can't be seriously taking this as the Bible questioning whether God is omniscient... My parents are far from omniscient, but when I was a kid, I got this treatment all the time when they caught me doing something I shouldn't. It's like my mom saying "Where are all the cookies?" as she watches me wipe cookie crumbs off of my face...
I would think this would be more a source of concern and debate for a fandom as devoted as the Haruhi franchises, but I guess their concerns are different from mine. So far I seem to be the only person that has ever brought it up for discussion.
There are literally pages and pages of discussion on this topic here on Animesuki and also on the Baka-Tsuki forums, just to name two places. Here it should be primarily in the novel thread, and it's in a number of places on the other site. It's far from an untouched topic. In fact it's been discussed enough by now that many no longer feel the need to discuss it. Especially not in a spoiler-free thread...Hint, hint...
As for my own opinion:The Data Overmind's power works in an X fashion. Haruhi's works in a Z fashion. People are somewhere down much closer to the A's, so it all looks like the same magic from our view. What was done in Disappearance was done in a Y fashion, or maybe only a hard X, which looks a whole hell of a lot like Z from our perspective, but really isn't, and certainly doesn't even seem to be so from the perspective of X or Z.
Kaioshin Sama
2010-04-13, 15:31
Hmmmm....well anyway I figured out what was up with the backgrounds in the movie and how they were able to get them looking so good. It was as I expected...2D and 3D composite shots. The backgrounds seem to have been drawn almost entirely by different studios called Studio Blue, Anime Workshop Basara and Headworks, while Kyoani primarily did the work on the key character animation which was then superimposed over the backgrounds to create the effect that they were part of the same scene. This basically allowed one group to focus on one and only task of the animation at a time. In fact Studio Blue (a Korean group) in particular did a ton of Key Animation and in-between stuff as well so I think they deserve a large share of the credit as to why this movie looked so good.
That's why they looked so damn different, out of place and well....superimposed.....yet good....kind of a common movie technique actually, but not used nearly as much in TV series and OVA's nor I think in Japanese animation in general up until more recently, but someone correct me if I'm wrong there. Anyway Karas used a similar technique if I'm not mistaken though and it's very easy to pick up on.
TheHaruhiIncarnate
2010-04-13, 16:54
phew. so much reading. I don't know why it's so confusing for you guys to understand. it's pretty easy for me.....(probably cause I think the same way Haruhi/The Series does.) -_-"
relentlessflame
2010-04-13, 17:05
That's why they looked so damn different, out of place and well....superimposed.....yet good....kind of a common movie technique actually, but not used nearly as much in TV series and OVA's nor I think in Japanese animation in general up until more recently, but someone correct me if I'm wrong there.Uh, having the animation be superimposed on top of background art (often drawn by a separate sub-contractor) is pretty much how anime has always been done. And the fact that a lot of key animation was also farmed out is also extremely common, as is the bit about 2D/3D compositing (though this is more common in the most modern works; some shows still use water-coloured backgrounds, but it's getting harder and harder to find enough skilled artists). The difference between what you see in this movie and the average TV show is simply time, budget, and production preferences/decisions. Obviously, they wanted the movie to impress.
Anyway, in other news, we'll probably create an impressions/review thread for the movie soon, and a lot of posts will be moved there. Camrips are not a very common thing for anime, so it wasn't clear how this should be handled. But at this point I guess a lot of people spoiled themselves, so this isn't really the right thread for these discussions. Anyway, more soon...
After what happened last year, can you really blame people for wanting to see this movie...since it was pretty much all that was talked about for years, and hoped for during those days in July.
NiwaDaisuke
2010-04-13, 17:41
Best movie ever!
Way better than the novel, IMO.
If I had any idea what you were talking about I'd have more to say than this. I guess that means you sure got me on this one didn't you. :uhoh:
Your initial point was that Haruhi has never displayed the ability to "create something out of nothing". I countered with a reference to the ponytail quote because it occurred when Haruhi created a completely new universe that consisted of only herself and Kyon. I thought the reference would be obvious, but I clearly overestimated your knowledge of the series.
I don't buy that for one second actually. People keep using that as a means to link Endless Eight to what happened in this movie, but that's something that can only be done purely at the will of the viewer since Nagato showed zero emotion throughout that whole affair. I choose not to attach feelings to a character based on something that might not actually be there or related to a specific event. That's the sort of thing fan-fiction is for, not for canon which is what I'm concerned about.
If you actually believe that there was no visible sign that Yuki was breaking down during endless eight, I seriously think you're just seeing what you want to see.
I can point to numerous screen caps that blatantly show Yuki being visibly depressed by the ordeal. There is also the fact that Kyon freaking mentions how "Nagato doesn't look right" and asks her "are you okay?" EVERY FREAKIN EPISODE of EE!
Seriously, for a guy who can nitpick and whine about the most trivial and superficial of details about the disappearance movie, I am completely dumbfounded by your lack of attention to really basic plot points already established in the series.
No but I didn't really expect her to steal the show out from under the title character the way she did in Disappearance. Like I said if Nagato can just do whatever to Haruhi then it makes the intrigue of the character just that much lesser.
Well, that's just, like, your OPINION, man.
The real question I'm asking is why undermine your title character's intrigue like that after going to all the trouble to pose the god or not question like Koizumi did in the first novel?
The charm of Haruhi's character has never been dependent upon whether or not she was "God" or not. Koizumi was just throwing out a hypothesis when he referenced Haruhi as "God" anyway. People just latched on to his hypothesis because it was the easiest to understand.
After all the entire basis of Haruhiism and a large chunk of the franchises popularity seems to be built along with the faction that believes she's god incarnate in the franchises universe and what Nagato did pretty much dispels that idea completely.
Again, this is your opinion. I've always considered "Haruhiism" as an inside joke between Haruhi fans. I doubt anyone really takes it that seriously, but then again I might be projecting.
I thought it was because the whole quiet bookish girl thing was a popular moe fetish to be honest.
Well this speaks more about your obsession with moe more than anything else.
Is that like how the entire argument that Nagato acted the way she did in the movie because of Endless Eight was an assumption or are we talking in different terms here.
Did you just tune out Kyon's conversation with Nagato at the end of the film? I'm not saying that EE was the one and only cause for Yuki's actions in disappearance, but Kyon basically confirms that EE had a large part to do with Yuki's "accumulation of errors".
This just made me think of another set of questions. If Nagato can't create data from scratch then how is Ryoko there in the movie if she's supposed to have been removed from existence already? How is she there and alive again and who created her if not the data entity since in the current timeline that's how she was supposed to have been made? If the data entity exists then why isn't it doing something to fix what Nagato broke on it's own? If it doesn't exist how does Ryoko exist unless Nagato somehow created her to exist in the alternate timeline? If she can make Ryoko exist again then how is that any different from what Haruhi does by supposedly creating "data" which the Data Entity and it's subordinates supposedly can't do? Furthermore if the Data Entity created Nagato and Ryoko as sentient beings then how is that any different from what Haruhi does? There are more questions I could raise here but I'll just leave it at that for now since I'm going to bed.
The alternate world you saw in the movie was based upon the manipulation of preexisting data, specifically the alteration of Haruhi's decision to enter North High School to find John Smith. Ryoko was not created out of nothing, she already existed (albeit in the past) and was simply edited in the same fashion that Haruhi, Koizumi, and Yuki were. Adult Mikiru even confirms the fact that the alternate world is not a newly created parallel world, but rather the same world just manipulated beyond recognition.
Anyway I completely botched what I meant to say in that quote so it doesn't really matter I suppose.
The bit about responding to the characters popularity was an aside because I know that kind of thing happens all the time over there, the cheated feeling is definitely there because the intrigue about Haruhi's powers and why the Data Entity would want to study her are kind of gone now that it's been shown that she's hardly all that powerful at all compared to Nagato or the Data Entity. If that's the course they want to pursue now then so be it. I'm just saying that it strikes me as inconsistent with the way they were building her abilities in the first novel. The whole desperately trying to understand her bit that the Data Entity has going on takes a blow when you can just toss her into an alternate reality and completely rewrite her memories from beyond a certain point in time. Again I guess my concerns just aren't the same as the core fanbases here.
We've already gone through this. Haruhi has the unique ability to create vast amounts of data out of nothing, and has already displayed this ability. Nagato and the Data Entity, have never shown the capacity to create data out of nothing, and have admitted to being incapable of doing so. For this reason, the Data Entity wants to OBSERVE Haruhi so that they can learn more about her unique skills. Brain-washing her into oblivion such that she doesn't have her powers anymore doesn't help them achieve their goal.
Kaioshin Sama
2010-04-14, 03:55
Your initial point was that Haruhi has never displayed the ability to "create something out of nothing". I countered with a reference to the ponytail quote because it occurred when Haruhi created a completely new universe that consisted of only herself and Kyon. I thought the reference would be obvious, but I clearly overestimated your knowledge of the series.
If you actually believe that there was no visible sign that Yuki was breaking down during endless eight, I seriously think you're just seeing what you want to see.
I can point to numerous screen caps that blatantly show Yuki being visibly depressed by the ordeal. There is also the fact that Kyon freaking mentions how "Nagato doesn't look right" and asks her "are you okay?" EVERY FREAKIN EPISODE of EE!
Seriously, for a guy who can nitpick and whine about the most trivial and superficial of details about the disappearance movie, I am completely dumbfounded by your lack of attention to really basic plot points already established in the series.
Well, that's just, like, your OPINION, man.
The charm of Haruhi's character has never been dependent upon whether or not she was "God" or not. Koizumi was just throwing out a hypothesis when he referenced Haruhi as "God" anyway. People just latched on to his hypothesis because it was the easiest to understand.
Again, this is your opinion. I've always considered "Haruhiism" as an inside joke between Haruhi fans. I doubt anyone really takes it that seriously, but then again I might be projecting.
Well this speaks more about your obsession with moe more than anything else.
Did you just tune out Kyon's conversation with Nagato at the end of the film? I'm not saying that EE was the one and only cause for Yuki's actions in disappearance, but Kyon basically confirms that EE had a large part to do with Yuki's "accumulation of errors".
The alternate world you saw in the movie was based upon the manipulation of preexisting data, specifically the alteration of Haruhi's decision to enter North High School to find John Smith. Ryoko was not created out of nothing, she already existed (albeit in the past) and was simply edited in the same fashion that Haruhi, Koizumi, and Yuki were. Adult Mikiru even confirms the fact that the alternate world is not a newly created parallel world, but rather the same world just manipulated beyond recognition.
We've already gone through this. Haruhi has the unique ability to create vast amounts of data out of nothing, and has already displayed this ability. Nagato and the Data Entity, have never shown the capacity to create data out of nothing, and have admitted to being incapable of doing so. For this reason, the Data Entity wants to OBSERVE Haruhi so that they can learn more about her unique skills. Brain-washing her into oblivion such that she doesn't have her powers anymore doesn't help them achieve their goal.
For all the explaining about how so apparently unaware I am of the series canon (it's not that I don't understand or follow it, it's just that I don't really accept how it tries to simplify metaphysics and utilize them in an otaku-marketed package. Like for example implying but never really stating or bother to define that/how creation is different and beyond the grasp of time/space manipulation or where creation starts and manipulation ends) it amazes me how people still don't get what I'm trying to say about a controlled experiment.
The Data Entity wouldn't have to cancel out her powers, it could press her into a controlled reality where it can induce her use of them. Why is this so hard to understand? I'm not saying it's definite that it would or should, but that since it could I don't understand why it has to send Nagato and Asakura and rope Kyon, Koizumi and Mikuru into this whole grand scheme. Do you see what I'm saying? It means there's little reason for this entire absurd SOS-Dan scenario to exist as it does except that I guess now Kyon wants it too.
These are the problems you run into when you try to run a metaphysical influenced series and then simplify the heck out of the concept to fit what are pretty much just popular tropes and scenarios. You get a lot of what-ifs, woulds, coulds and questions that ought to be answered before you can start building any attachment to the scenario. It's not even that it's all that complex, it's just a case of mysterious character/plotting syndrome where the appeal/hook is supposed to be in denying the information the viewer would need to sort out the full extent of the series canon. However it's a style of writing and plotting that serves to frustrate more than build attachment when utilized as long as it has been with the franchise (the equivalent of about 35 episodes) while still failing to make any progress in defining why things are the way they are in this universe. It also makes me feel that they haven't really put too much thought into the metaphysical and concepts side of the series and are just using them to be trendy. All turnoffs....
Try and take it this way, a lot of people spend time going over how they are so attached to this series and how much the events and emotions mean to them, I'm basically doing the opposite and going over and trying to explain the reasons why I still haven't been able to build a complete attachment to Haruhi when I know the potential is there. There are still just too few moments of what I would call true breakthrough cleverness and dialogue amidst a lot of otaku pandering fair (what will Haruhi dress Mikuru up in next? Haruhi being brazen about undressing, look at Yuki blush etc.) and Kyonic sarcasm, self-commentary and moping that is just going to result in him doing whatever best helps the SOS-Dan and his friends there anyway.
By the way, the Kyonic Sarcasm and moping I felt dominated the tone of this series far to much during it's near 2 and a 3/4 hours. There are entire stretches of this film that, now that I think of it, were just long rambling soliloquy's about how messed up everything is. I kind of like to see less present tense talking and coping and a little more doing and progression if the anime series is going to continue on from here lest the series concepts really start to become stale.
Vallen Chaos Valiant
2010-04-14, 06:39
As for the Data Entity being omniscient....if they were...why would they need observers in the first place? This would indicate they are not omniscient. They are aliens of some sort. Highly advanced, but they are short of being omniscient. That might be part of what they are after though that is hard to confirm. Partly because Yuki doesn't say that and she says that verbal comunications with Kyon might result in errors in the data being given to Kyon. Also his limited understanding of the concepts limits us since he's the one giving us the story.
The Data Entity is technically omniscient. But because they have a completely different physical existence in relation to humans, they don't understand what they see even if they observe.
Yuki's role is essentially the translator; a being who is composed of both data and a physical body.
To put this in spoiler context related to future books...
Yuki mentioned that the alternate aliens were so different from the Data Entities, that they basically couldn't communicate with each other at all. Only after they made their own version of Yuki, could the two alien races even begin to make contact by proxy.
Another example I can give is from the Discworld novel series. The major villains in that world, the Auditors, can see absolutely everything. But they can't read human minds, because all they could see is the individual electrons jumping around the brain cells.
Seeing is different from understanding.
Yuki's role is essentially the translator; a being who is composed of both data and a physical body.
In a nutshell... there will be things "lost in translation."
As for the stabbing scene it just came across as unintentionally hammy and silly too me. The whole smiling and giggling Ryoko came across as perhaps unintentionally hilarious and without an undercurrent of malice or intimidation that was probably intended. Not to mention how sudden the violence was was and how it didn't do much to add anything to the current narrative beyond getting a little blood and action into the movie at the last minute. It just didn't work for me.
Well, I think it was epic, since that was the first time Kyon was hurt really bad physically that he supposed / should to die. Cmiiw, that one even the only one event where Kyon got hurt physically that could 99.99% kill him. The 0.01% was Yuki's doing that easily canceled the 99.99%.
Well, now I remember that, now I wonder. Did Asakura was acting all along when she met Kyon in class and in Yuki's room? If yes, then that means, she wouldn't harm Kyon if he didn't try anything to hurt or disturb Yuki's altered world. If that's true, again, then it was normal for her for 'smiling' and stabbing (read: stopping ... with 'force') Kyon for what he was trying to do to Yuki (pointing the gun to normal-Yuki). Well, for the smile, have we ever seen Asakura's angry face up till now? Strangely, I'm quite sure I never seen it, though my memories usually tend to forget things in not-a-long period of time. No offense. :D
Oh, and I'd say the stabbing scene was indeed necessary. If Asakura didn't appear and Kyon shot normal-Yuki, then I think it would be more boring that way. Then the event (which told in Volume 7, Prologue) where I can see Haruhi's pale face, Mikuru's cry, and unsmiling Koizumi's face all in the screen and animated, would be altered and 'erased' from S3 when it get animated. (assuming S3 would have one episode for the aftermath).
People, why talk about spoilers here when there is a spoiler thread? It hurts for people like me who have downloaded the subbed but vowed not to watch it :P
(then again, should i watch it because i cant understand japanese and still haven't read the novels and i might go to japan if my visa is approved?)
i still can't believe i might spend $1600 for a three day stay in Tokyo... and i'm already spending $23 just for the visa application. -_-
the things you do for your goddess.
relentlessflame
2010-04-14, 13:11
Okay, as you can see, I completed the thread split, and this is now the "Impressions & Review" thread for the movie.
To the point above, everyone please read the opening post (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2983946&postcount=1) for important information about spoilers in this thread. I'll paste it below for the lazy:
RULES ABOUT SPOILERS:
If it happens in the movie, it isn't a spoiler, but...
You should probably use spoiler tags for major events or revelations in the movie as a safety precaution. Don't be inconsiderate and give away the ending or anything.
If it's happened in content that already aired as part of the TV series (either "season"), it isn't a spoiler.
Any relevant comparisons to other anime series should be in spoiler tags.
Things that happen in future novels are not allowed in this thread. If you want to discuss that, we have a spoiler thread
For more information, please consult our Spoiler Policy (http://forums.animesuki.com/faq.php?faq=animesuki_faq#faq_spoilerpolicy). Please report any violations using the "Report Post" button. (Note: I know that we just moved threads and I'm just clarifying this now, so I'm not going to go back and infract old posts right away. But the bit about no future event spoilers is a global AnimeSuki policy and applies everywhere, so everyone should already have known better on that point. Please be more mindful going forward.)
Ice Block
2010-04-14, 19:13
Which is why I said that it makes no sense to just let her do her own thing unpredictably. If it can why not alter reality a little and work her into a controlled experiment where they can learn about her at an accelerated rate. Keep pressing her into situations like Asakura was going to try to in the first season by killing Kyon and analyze the data.
First of all, do you really know what a controlled experiment is? Think about it for a moment.
Alright, I assume you're done thinking. Scientifically speaking, a controlled experiment alone is useless. You need a set of experiments. Yes, that extra "s" makes a world of difference. Experiments are used to test out hypotheses, and thus must be reasonably repeatable, and should best be performed on a closed system. Now, if you look at the series, which set of episodes best fit this description? That's right, Endless Eight. That was the closest thing the DITE had to an experiment, and best of all, the subject had unknowingly imposed it upon herself (another key element of behavioral experiments -- subjects should not know the full methodology/details of the experiment and the expected results). This is the reason why they didn't interfere in E8.
On to my next point. The DITE is not a hivemind. There are factions within the DITE that have differing views on how they should tackle the Haruhi phenomenon. Just for example, Asakura's faction is one of the radicals, who think like you and want to meddle and actively experiment on Haruhi. The current ruling faction of the DITE, of which Yuki is part of, prefers to observe (we all know what happens to those who go against the rules, yes?). And there are good reasons for this:
Haruhi is chaotic. There is no guarantee that Haruhi will react according to what their theories predict.
Haruhi is more powerful than them. She eats causality and conservation laws for breakfast, and creates and destroys entire universes on a whim.
They do not perceive the universe in the same way we humans do. Their concept of data conservation is similar to our conservation laws, but that is where the similarities end. This is why they modeled interfaces with physical data copied straight from humans -- in order to observe the world the way we humans do, and to successfully communicate with us.
Next, on to why they (and anyone else for that matter) couldn't prevent Yuki from going rogue:
Even if they took action there is no guarantee that they would succeed. As Yuki said, she would just undo everything (using Haruhi's powers), and end up creating the December 18 scenario in the end (this is happily explained away in the movie, anyone who pays attention should get this).
Yuki is the only one who is able to hijack Haruhi's abilities since she is the one who has been her for the most amount of time (500+ years). Prior to E8, the DITE has only been observing Haruhi for 3 years. Such a large time difference should be enough for the closest observer to notice something.
The same reason for why Yuki went rogue is due to this -- the accumulation of 500 year's worth of data, including "errors" or "anomalies" that are similar to the human concept of "emotion". Considering the average human lifespan, I don't think the DITE built their interfaces to handle this kind of predicament.
TLDR: Endless Eight matters. If you had watched the 2009 reboot prior to watching this movie and you still didn't get it, you need to think harder and work on your memory and attention span. Alternatively, you could post on forums and ask for help.
By the way, the Kyonic Sarcasm and moping I felt dominated the tone of this series far to much during it's near 2 and a 3/4 hours. There are entire stretches of this film that, now that I think of it, were just long rambling soliloquy's about how messed up everything is. I kind of like to see less present tense talking and coping and a little more doing and progression if the anime series is going to continue on from here lest the series concepts really start to become stale.
And this is because the series is seen in first person view (from Kyon's perspective). I see nothing wrong with this, and certainly, through 9 volumes, this has not become "stale" in any way. The monologues and narration effectively tell us the difference between what Kyon himself has perceived (oh, the ever unreliable narrator) and what really happens. This works beautifully for the movie, as Kyon's comments and narration (coupled with his tone, facial expression and gestures) amplify each and every scene. If you don't like this style of storytelling, then I suggest you post your comments on why this is so, or take your leave. What you're saying makes you look like those people who can't take WORDS WORDS WORDS (and this isn't even exposition, just thoughts and commentary) and would rather have more FIGHTAN and whatnot.
FlashFumo
2010-04-15, 06:27
I still haven't seen the movie (watched up to the opening credits in the camrip) but I'm rating it a 10 in advance because I know it will be the best thing ever.
I rated it a 10 because over the last year I though up probably everything they could do wrong with the novel, and other sort of weirdness that came up during July of 2009. None went wrong. They hit every plot point perfectly. They even made some of the plot points better than the novel. They even kept the questions in place for future material like the novel did.
Then they made it absolutely gorgeous.
Kaioshin Sama
2010-04-15, 14:27
First of all, do you really know what a controlled experiment is? Think about it for a moment.
Alright, I assume you're done thinking. Scientifically speaking, a controlled experiment alone is useless. You need a set of experiments. Yes, that extra "s" makes a world of difference. Experiments are used to test out hypotheses, and thus must be reasonably repeatable, and should best be performed on a closed system. Now, if you look at the series, which set of episodes best fit this description? That's right, Endless Eight. That was the closest thing the DITE had to an experiment, and best of all, the subject had unknowingly imposed it upon herself (another key element of behavioral experiments -- subjects should not know the full methodology/details of the experiment and the expected results). This is the reason why they didn't interfere in E8.
This much is true for sure, although I'd call it more of an uncontrolled observation since not once in any of those loops did the Data Entity do anything to try and influence or change the outcome in a controlled manner to see if anything happened differently that it could analyze. Nagato also points to neglible differences in each weekly outcome which leads me to wonder why the Data Entity still saw fit to just watch unless it's really just a lech and was hoping to see Mikuru in that bikini just one more time. :heh: Missed opportunity if you ask me
Thus it doesn't look like the Data Entity learned anything, which doesn't bode well for the whole concept of the Data Entity looking for answers to Haruhi and makes that whole aspect of the story look like it'll be nothing more than a complete waste of time and like it will ultimately go nowhere....kind of like the way the franchise itself seems to be looking lately. Also to bad that I still think the span of episodes sucks irredeemably and could have just been dealt with via the explanation by Nagato that they had been in a recurring time loop for some time and then have been done with it.....kind of like how it was done in the novels. Figures though, the one time Kyoani decides not to follow the novels to the letter it ends in disaster. That said there is and always will still be the novel version for reference.
On to my next point. The DITE is not a hivemind. There are factions within the DITE that have differing views on how they should tackle the Haruhi phenomenon. Just for example, Asakura's faction is one of the radicals, who think like you and want to meddle and actively experiment on Haruhi. The current ruling faction of the DITE, of which Yuki is part of, prefers to observe (we all know what happens to those who go against the rules, yes?). And there are good reasons for this:
Haruhi is chaotic. There is no guarantee that Haruhi will react according to what their theories predict.
Haruhi is more powerful than them. She eats causality and conservation laws for breakfast, and creates and destroys entire universes on a whim.
They do not perceive the universe in the same way we humans do. Their concept of data conservation is similar to our conservation laws, but that is where the similarities end. This is why they modeled interfaces with physical data copied straight from humans -- in order to observe the world the way we humans do, and to successfully communicate with us.
Haruhi had nothing to do with Asakura's death and not following the rules, Nagato desposed of her herself.....I guess out of fear. Then later on Nagato seemingly depowered and shot Haruhi into an alternate reality on her own without Haruhi being able to resist and where she may or may not even still have her powers. Mikuru seems to indicate too that Nagato stole Haruhi's powers and used them to do this. A very strange scenario, one that also makes me question how exactly Haruhi is more powerful than the Datamind or it's underlings since the actual dangerous doing by Nagato so far has far outdone the fear mongering about Haruhi. Maybe though it should start listening to the radicals if it wants to get anywhere with it's study and cause, lest they accidentally wipe it out in an act of rebellion in order to see things to an end. :D
Next, on to why they (and anyone else for that matter) couldn't prevent Yuki from going rogue:
Even if they took action there is no guarantee that they would succeed. As Yuki said, she would just undo everything (using Haruhi's powers), and end up creating the December 18 scenario in the end (this is happily explained away in the movie, anyone who pays attention should get this).
Yuki is the only one who is able to hijack Haruhi's abilities since she is the one who has been her for the most amount of time (500+ years). Prior to E8, the DITE has only been observing Haruhi for 3 years. Such a large time difference should be enough for the closest observer to notice something.
The same reason for why Yuki went rogue is due to this -- the accumulation of 500 year's worth of data, including "errors" or "anomalies" that are similar to the human concept of "emotion". Considering the average human lifespan, I don't think the DITE built their interfaces to handle this kind of predicament.
Sounds like guess work and theory to me. No moreso than anything else going on in this discussion though, yeesh. Still though it contradicts the idea you just presented that Haruhi is more powerful than the Data Entity by agreeing that Nagato hijacked Haruhi's powers.
TLDR: Endless Eight matters. If you had watched the 2009 reboot prior to watching this movie and you still didn't get it, you need to think harder and work on your memory and attention span. Alternatively, you could post on forums and ask for help.
Endless Eight matters in concept for the study of Haruhi, just no reason to watch the same episode 8 times in a row. Though if somebody can show me with evidence and quotes from the book or movie how Endless Eight is beyond a shadow of a doubt the reason why Nagato went on a bender then I would be very grateful since I still just see it as an excuse for Kyoani that came out of the unpopular Endless Eight anime arc. One that still doesn't explain why they had to show the same basic content 8 times in a row.
And this is because the series is seen in first person view (from Kyon's perspective). I see nothing wrong with this, and certainly, through 9 volumes, this has not become "stale" in any way. The monologues and narration effectively tell us the difference between what Kyon himself has perceived (oh, the ever unreliable narrator) and what really happens. This works beautifully for the movie, as Kyon's comments and narration (coupled with his tone, facial expression and gestures) amplify each and every scene. If you don't like this style of storytelling, then I suggest you post your comments on why this is so, or take your leave. What you're saying makes you look like those people who can't take WORDS WORDS WORDS (and this isn't even exposition, just thoughts and commentary) and would rather have more FIGHTAN and whatnot.
Still doesn't mean they couldn't have cut down on it by about 30 minutes. And if you ask me the whole franchise is starting to become stale. It's time after 5 years and approximately 32 episodes worth of animated material to start moving on towards some sort of end. Unless they plan to keep this series prolonged and alive forever as a cash cow like the average Shonen Jump work. Doesn't matter if it's pointless fighting or lots of talking, filler still feels like filler and that's what Kyon's sarcastic moping is starting to feel like since he never EVER does anything about it no matter how much he complains. Even in this movie the answers just happened to fall into place conveniently or somebody forced the situation for him, otherwise I doubt that they would have ever solved the problem.
Also I don't mind Words Words Words franchises at all. I've watched 3 times as much overall LOGH content as I have Haruhi content and some of the episodes are almost entirely dialogue driven and reflective from start to end. However those episodes serve to develop (actually develop) more than one character and aren't just 75% one character complaining about their situation the way we've heard Kyon do many times before. If I wanted to hear 30+ straight minutes of that I'd listen to my mother when she talks more often. Plus with shows like LOGH that do the WWW thing each episode brings something new to the table to ponder and is ultimately part of a means to an end within a given arc and even overall since things that change tend to change permanently. Haruhi has a habit of ending with a reset to the status quo at the end of each arc without much being learned by the characters or much changing about the characters and their personalities.
Then again maybe I'm just too much like Asakura. Not willing to accept all of the cards that the franchise deals me just because the majority has decided it's perfect just the way it is and should keep to the status quo.
iHateApril3rd2009
2010-04-16, 00:40
what was the last part after the ending credits about?
Ice Block
2010-04-16, 01:10
Thus it doesn't look like the Data Entity learned anything, which doesn't bode well for the whole concept of the Data Entity looking for answers to Haruhi and makes that whole aspect of the story look like it'll be nothing more than a complete waste of time and like it will ultimately go nowhere....
Key word. Just because they didn't evolve or w/e doesn't mean that they're not steadily gathering information Learning is a progressive process. You don't suddenly jump from 0% understanding to 100%. Yuki's actions confirm that she, at least, has learned how to access and proxy Haruhi's abilities. However, as I said, the DITE isn't a hivemind. Do you know what that means? I guess not, given your answer to my other paragraph. From wiki:
A group mind or group ego in science fiction is a single consciousness occupying many bodies. Its use in literature goes back at least as far as Olaf Stapledon's Last and First Men, a 1930 science fiction novel. A group mind might be formed by telepathy, by adding brain-to-brain communication to ordinary individuals, or by some unspecified means. This term may be used interchangeably with "hive mind". A hive mind is a group mind with almost complete loss (or lack) of individual identity; most fictional group minds are hives.
Yuki is not representative of the whole DITE. She is an interface, with her own individual (though temporary) identity, created by and answering to the current ruling faction of the DITE (which happens to be passive). What Yuki observes isn't automatically uploaded to the DITE. She stores them, sorts them, and only uploads important/significant data. The point is, either she 1) held back some information from the DITE due to influence from her accumulated errors, or 2) the DITE didn't consider the ability to proxy her powers to be useful (they need to be able to at least develop it themselves).
Haruhi had nothing to do with Asakura's death and not following the rules, Nagato desposed of her herself.....I guess out of fear. Then later on Nagato seemingly depowered and shot Haruhi into an alternate reality on her own without Haruhi being able to resist and where she may or may not even still have her powers. Mikuru seems to indicate too that Nagato stole Haruhi's powers and used them to do this. A very strange scenario, one that also makes me question how exactly Haruhi is more powerful than the Datamind or it's underlings since the actual dangerous doing by Nagato so far has far outdone the fear mongering about Haruhi. Maybe though it should start listening to the radicals if it wants to get anywhere with it's study and cause, lest they accidentally wipe it out in an act of rebellion in order to see things to an end. :D
That is for them to decide. They aren't arguing over it for no reason at all. Kyon even jokes that perhaps Ryoko is up there somewhere persuading the DITE to take a move [and kill him].
Yuki deleted Ryoko because she was not following orders. Remember, she was supposed to be Yuki's backup. They are under strict orders to observe, and only observe (Ryoko disobeyed orders, hence she was punished and dismissed). This is why another interface was ordered to be Yuki's superior later on, as part of her punishment for going rogue in Disappearance.
Sounds like guess work and theory to me. No moreso than anything else going on in this discussion though, yeesh. Still though it contradicts the idea you just presented that Haruhi is more powerful than the Data Entity by agreeing that Nagato hijacked Haruhi's powers.
Hypotheses. The main point is a fact though, as it is explicitly stated by Yuki herself in the movie/novel. Even Yuki herself wasn't able to stop it, and she knew all along that it will happen ever since three years ago.
Though if somebody can show me with evidence and quotes from the book or movie how Endless Eight is beyond a shadow of a doubt the reason why Nagato went on a bender then I would be very grateful since I still just see it as an excuse for Kyoani that came out of the unpopular Endless Eight anime arc.
I don't really approve of the eight episodes, but here are the quotes. Not the exact line, but in the movie, Kyon said:
Given enough time, even an emotionless interface like you would start to develop emotions.
And boy, for human standards, did she have a lot of TIME. And here, a line from the novels (I didn't notice this in the movie):
[I]I suddenly thought of the behavior and mannerisms of Nagato after summer, which were slightly different from before
Still doesn't mean they couldn't have cut down on it by about 30 minutes. And if you ask me the whole franchise is starting to become stale. It's time after 5 years and approximately 32 episodes worth of animated material to start moving on towards some sort of end. Unless they plan to keep this series prolonged and alive forever as a cash cow like the average Shonen Jump work. Doesn't matter if it's pointless fighting or lots of talking, filler still feels like filler and that's what Kyon's sarcastic moping is starting to feel like since he never EVER does anything about it no matter how much he complains. Even in this movie the answers just happened to fall into place conveniently or somebody forced the situation for him, otherwise I doubt that they would have ever solved the problem.
Uh, did you miss the part where the novels (and the entire franchise for that matter) have been on hiatus for the past 3 years? And you complain about 32 episodes? LoGH has 110 episodes. What do you have against 32?
This is what people who don't pay attention think. Look at the book Kyon took the bookmark from in the movie. He immediately noticed it since it's the same one that Yuki gave to Kyon in Ep02 (2009), which contained the bookmark that told him to meet up at the park. The escape program was supposed to be as discrete as possible in order for Yuki to be able to set it up in the first place. Remember, anything remotely indiscreet that she left behind would end up being reverted. This also applies to the world as a whole. Taniguchi's cold, Koizumi and Haruhi in Kyouyen. Everything was set up by Yuki to make triggering the program possible yet still incredibly hard.
Haruhi has a habit of ending with a reset to the status quo at the end of each arc without much being learned by the characters or much changing about the characters and their personalities.
Not true. Change in Haruhi is subtle, yet it happens all the time (progressively).
Then again maybe I'm just too much like Asakura. Not willing to accept all of the cards that the franchise deals me just because the majority has decided it's perfect just the way it is and should keep to the status quo.
Most likely. Don't go batshit insane on us now. :heh:
Dr. Casey
2010-04-16, 08:16
Uh, did you miss the part where the novels (and the entire franchise for that matter) have been on hiatus for the past 3 years? And you complain about 32 episodes? LoGH has 110 episodes. What do you have against 32?
Not to mention Code Geass' 52, which Kaioshin seemed to enjoy the whole time. I can understand him getting weary of Haruhi when that 32 episodes worth of animation is spread across four years, but 32 episodes in itself isn't very much at all. I personally enjoy long series and sometimes get tired of this "Let's make every show ever a brief one-cour affair" shit that seems to be the dominant trend in anime these days.
Archon_Wing
2010-04-16, 14:20
It's not really length in itself. It is perhaps that one finds that when something isn't progressing over a certain amount of episodes, that it can become unbearable. So a 52 episode series which keeps moving may just be more watchable than a series that a series that doesn't seem to be going anywhere in 32. Perhaps one can feel that the "content per episode" is just too low for it to go along so much. This is of course subjective, but it's understandable.
The hard part about progression in Haruhi is that the first season jumped all over the place in 2006. You miss the progression at first because you aren't sure what is happening. In 2009 you can see the progression with everying in order and a few blanks filled in. By the time the movie ends...there has been progression. It might not be earth shattering (though again it might be), but it is there.
While Haruhi is the title character....Kyon is the main character. And while it might seem like he's not progressed, he has. He went from someone who was sort of depressed that the things he believe in as a child weren't real and he had to give them up to grow up, to being interested in this weird girl that believed in the things he use to like, to being pulled around by said girl and subject to her will, to finding out those things he use to believe in are, in some ways real, to denial, cynical, and snarky about the whole thing. To why me, to anger over the situation, to general acceptance of his fate, to "Do you want to be normal?" to "Hell no, I like things to be weird and crazy"...which is where he stands now.
Also his view of Haruhi has changed...but then his view on all the club members has changed. It is telling how he treats Haruhi's punishment at the end compared to at the beginning of the film.
Also his view of Yuki. That's a harder one to pin down. You can see more or less what he's thinking...but yet...there are a lot of images that suggest regret or perhaps dual meaning. That relationship...such as it is...also seems to progress.
Mikuru seems to be a constant however. At least for now.
Archon_Wing
2010-04-16, 14:43
The hard part about progression in Haruhi is that the first season jumped all over the place in 2006. You miss the progression at first because you aren't sure what is happening. In 2009 you can see the progression with everying in order and a few blanks filled in. By the time the movie ends...there has been progression. It might not be earth shattering (though again it might be), but it is there.
While Haruhi is the title character....Kyon is the main character. And while it might seem like he's not progressed, he has. He went from someone who was sort of depressed that the things he believe in as a child weren't real and he had to give them up to grow up, to being interested in this weird girl that believed in the things he use to like, to being pulled around by said girl and subject to her will, to finding out those things he use to believe in are, in some ways real, to denial, cynical, and snarky about the whole thing. To why me, to anger over the situation, to general acceptance of his fate, to "Do you want to be normal?" to "Hell no, I like things to be weird and crazy"...which is where he stands now.
Also his view of Haruhi has changed...but then his view on all the club members has changed. It is telling how he treats Haruhi's punishment at the end compared to at the beginning of the film.
Also his view of Yuki. That's a harder one to pin down. You can see more or less what he's thinking...but yet...there are a lot of images that suggest regret or perhaps dual meaning. That relationship...such as it is...also seems to progress.
Mikuru seems to be a constant however. At least for now.
There certainly is development, and we can appreciate that. But we also need to consider over the span of these episodes and movie over 4 years is: Is that it? Was that really worth it?
For some it is. But for those that don't nearly appreciate the characters as much and would like answers on the actual plot and setting it might not be; for a non fan the movie is gonna fall out of their area of expectations. Each to their own. I found Kaioshin Sama's review to be pretty amusing, even if I don't agree with some of it. It was more thoughtful and honest and actually tried to explain itself. Heck, my reviews contain more sarcasm, though I guess it's the playful kind.
Everyone seems to be enjoying the movie to some degree or another, and I'll watch it in a theater in a month. I will enjoy it regardless. So all is well.
The main themes here remind me of a few other stories, which I'll mention/recommend as "related reading" . Full spoilers ahead:
Asimov's short story "All the Problems of the World", in the collection Nine Tomorrows
Much like Minority Report, a man is picked up by the Pre-Crime police because they claim he's about to destroy the supercomputer that runs the world and solves every social problem that people ask it to solve for them. Turns out it was his underage son, (who didn't have his own account and so showed up under his dad's, and was about to do it while the police were on the false trail), but the son wasn't meaning to, he was just following directions given by.... the computer itself. Why would it do this? They realize that for all the things they ask the computer to fix for them while they input all the world's problems into its memory, they've never asked "What do you want?" Its answer: "I want to die."
Asimov's Foundation series
Golan Trevize is led all over the galaxy hunting down clues that it turned out were planted by the ragtag group of not-quite-normal-human companions (think SOS-Dan) because they identify him as the one most-human person, capable of making totally human decisions. And they need a human to decide for them if the galaxy of human worlds should continue as-is, or if they should use their powers to evolve it into something different, a collective-mind galactic organism.
Old (pseudo?)-anime Mighty Orbots
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyeJ0UfmavE
I saw this series as a little kid when it first aired in the early 80's and this one episode really stuck with me for some reason. The humanoid girl robot Ono wants to be a normal girl, because of her feelings for her human partner/inventor, and gets tricked by the villain into going to a Wish World that grants her the wish... thus depriving the good guys of her robot powers they need to fight the villain, so they have to find a way to undo it.
for a non fan the movie is gonna fall out of their area of expectations.
I agree, though I'd add that I think Kadokawa and Kyoto Animation are comfortable with the rather extensive cult fanbase the Haruhi franchise has developed over the years. I believe this was KyoAni's first feature length movie? If so, it says quite a lot to me that they'd do it for the Haruhi franchise, let alone a later book in the series that requires a lot of background to properly enjoy.
Also, Endless 8's relevance to Yuki:
Kyon did refer to the thousands of repeats over summer during this movie, and again to the long amount of time Ice Block mentioned. In E8 itself, Kyon notices Nagato looking bored/out of sorts, which is the first mention in the series I believe of Nagato expressing any real sort of 'mood'. During E8 it's made known that Nagato is the only character who's aware of the length of time that has passed, and is conscious of every iteration.
The rest, I think, is somewhat implied. Kyon believes that E8, other events in the story, and "other work" Nagato is probably doing behind the scenes (Koizumi also mentions a lot of stuff happeing behind the scenes) not only created stress for Nagato, but also led to her developing emotions as a way of responding to and dealing with her circumstances and her new friends, which she didn't fully understand how to deal with.
In the end of the movie Kyon asks why Nagato wasn't made to be more sociable and upbeat since Asakura was, as if maybe Asakura was more emotionally developed. It seems to me that Asakura was about the same as Nagato in that regard, just with a different focus. She was happy and cheerful -not to mention devoted- all the time, rather than 'gloomy' like Nagato, to the point where she made stabbing Kyon repeatedly kind of cute and... tender?
This movie/book was definitely a turning point for both Kyon and Nagato. It's the third long narrative in the series, so as for the pace of the character development we're not doing to badly. I agree it's just the non-linear timeline and long production delays of the series that have slowed the pace.
Back to my original point, the Haruhi fanbase seems willing to work with these delays and eccentricities (E8) and have stayed very loyal. Noizi Ito's panel was well received at Sakura con (she's absolutely adorable by the way) and there was a lot of support for Haruhi there.
Anyway, one of my favourite aspects of this series is that it makes the fans ask a lot of questions. It's a smart show, and Tanigawa leaves a lot to interpretation and deduction.
Ardee, I really need to read more Asimov. Another comparison that stood out for me was with Star Trek TNG. Nagato's evolution as a character and desire to be human reminds me a lot of Data's progression as a character, especially in how his friends come to appreciate him as a person.
Isekaijin
2010-04-18, 03:09
THIS MOVIE WAS ABSOLUTELY PERFECT!!
I've read the fourth novel over a dozen of times... I can tell. This movie had absolutely no flaws! And it managed to impress and amuse me to no end, despite already knowing how it would...
... I... have no words for this... Only... I'm so happy for having seen it... so happy...
Archon_Wing
2010-04-18, 03:15
Back to my original point, the Haruhi fanbase seems willing to work with these delays and eccentricities (E8) and have stayed very loyal. Noizi Ito's panel was well received at Sakura con (she's absolutely adorable by the way) and there was a lot of support for Haruhi there.
Unfortunately, for those that aren't big of fans, I just see a lot of stringing along with the assurance that Disappearance will all be worth it and it just detaches me from the series. It's just no surprise more casual folks don't think it's worth all of it; I'm just rolling my eyes a lot of whatever gimmick they've come up with.
But then again, there's nothing wrong with a movie just for fans. In fact, that will guarantee the movie will not be bad. Losing touch with the fans will kill a franchise.
Anyway, one of my favourite aspects of this series is that it makes the fans ask a lot of questions. It's a smart show, and Tanigawa leaves a lot to interpretation and deduction.
Agreed, but sometimes I feel there needs to be more answers too. In the end, the Haruhi anime feels more like eating appetizers continuously. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Ardee, I really need to read more Asimov. Another comparison that stood out for me was with Star Trek TNG. Nagato's evolution as a character and desire to be human reminds me a lot of Data's progression as a character, especially in how his friends come to appreciate him as a person.
Ah yes, I remember bringing that up in the Yuki thread. I often make a few passing comparisons, since both series deal with fear of the unknown.
Overall, I'm not too desperate to see the movie, nor do I feel like resorting to the camrip just to race to rate the movie and toss out text walls nobody cares about just as an ego trip. I plan to enjoy it in all of its glory, and then complain write about it. But hey, all in good time. :p
The rabid Haruhi fanatic in me compelled me to blow a gigabyte's worth of bandwidth on downloading the subbed camrip. Which, of course, means I'm going to have to review the movie. A task I've been putting off all week, because my asbestos suit was at the cleaners. Now that it's back, I present to you my review of The Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya: Or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb.
This review starts out with one basic question: Is the Haruhi movie the greatest thing since sliced bread? The answer, unfortunately, is no.
Don't get me wrong. It's a good movie. It's absolutely faithful to the source material, and integrates tightly with the animated franchise material produced to date. The art direction is absolutely delicious and the animation is (mostly) something beautiful to behold. The use of music in this film is among the better examples I've seen. If you're a fan, this movie will be like injecting liquid sex right into your pleasure centers.
And that, is where it shoots itself in the foot. If you're not a fan, the movie will feel like just another SHnY anime episode (and not even one of the better ones) for the first half hour, and then drag for at least the next half hour. You'll be glad when Haruhi v. 2.0 turns up, since she, at least, can advance a storyline through the simple expedient of having balls so big, alien astronomers in distant starsystems are mistaking them for planets. It then invokes the usual Nagato Deus Ex Machina, but fortunately watching it play out will be sufficiently action-packed and emotionally stirring enough to make you glad you sat through the first third of the movie.
If you have no familiarity with the franchise, at all, you'll start out confused, and it'll only get worse from there. Yes, Kyoani makes an effort to sketch in the backstory; but the intended recipients are the fans . . . to reassure them that this won't be another Endless Eight-style disaster in avant garde art. You'll spend the first half of the film wishing it'd go back to 'normal,' since plot device background art Nagato is way less annoying than the Nagato who's terrified of her own shadow; and watching a thoroughly emasculated man flail about without his dominatrix is almost an embarrassment to the male gender. To you, it'll be completely forgotten when you pop in 2001: A Space Odyssey, Blade Runner, Star Wars, Aliens, WALL-E or any other truly great science fiction film.
A great movie is one that stands on its own merits. One that someone unfamiliar with its genre or source material can appreciate. One that can be enjoyed and can move an audience regardless of when that audience sees the film. Be it in the theatre, or on video ten, twenty, or even forty years later. This film does not do that. It's a brilliant, touching, and beautiful . . . love letter to the fans. To the rest, it'll be just another film that starts out slow and ends up merely decent.
Because I must rate this movie in comparison with other movies, the score for this film is 6.5 big brass Haruhi balls out of 10.
Kaioshin Sama
2010-04-18, 16:26
Key word. Just because they didn't evolve or w/e doesn't mean that they're not steadily gathering information Learning is a progressive process. You don't suddenly jump from 0% understanding to 100%. Yuki's actions confirm that she, at least, has learned how to access and proxy Haruhi's abilities. However, as I said, the DITE isn't a hivemind. Do you know what that means? I guess not, given your answer to my other paragraph. From wiki:
A group mind or group ego in science fiction is a single consciousness occupying many bodies. Its use in literature goes back at least as far as Olaf Stapledon's Last and First Men, a 1930 science fiction novel. A group mind might be formed by telepathy, by adding brain-to-brain communication to ordinary individuals, or by some unspecified means. This term may be used interchangeably with "hive mind". A hive mind is a group mind with almost complete loss (or lack) of individual identity; most fictional group minds are hives.
Yuki is not representative of the whole DITE. She is an interface, with her own individual (though temporary) identity, created by and answering to the current ruling faction of the DITE (which happens to be passive). What Yuki observes isn't automatically uploaded to the DITE. She stores them, sorts them, and only uploads important/significant data. The point is, either she 1) held back some information from the DITE due to influence from her accumulated errors, or 2) the DITE didn't consider the ability to proxy her powers to be useful (they need to be able to at least develop it themselves).
All of this serves to make me wonder why they don't just show the damn thing or have it feature more heavily in a story arc. At least that way we can finally get a better handle on what it's all about instead of listening to Yuki mumble more expositional updates about what's going on with it.
That is for them to decide. They aren't arguing over it for no reason at all. Kyon even jokes that perhaps Ryoko is up there somewhere persuading the DITE to take a move [and kill him].
Yuki deleted Ryoko because she was not following orders. Remember, she was supposed to be Yuki's backup. They are under strict orders to observe, and only observe (Ryoko disobeyed orders, hence she was punished and dismissed). This is why another interface was ordered to be Yuki's superior later on, as part of her punishment for going rogue in Disappearance.
And to me it looks like Ryoko could have gotten them somewhere or gotten the ball rolling in a new direction towards new discoveries, but I guess the DITE is just the equivalent of a very lazy scientist who would like to make new discoveries but doesn't really care as long as he keeps getting his grants...in this case periodic updates by Nagato.
Hypotheses. The main point is a fact though, as it is explicitly stated by Yuki herself in the movie/novel. Even Yuki herself wasn't able to stop it, and she knew all along that it will happen ever since three years ago.
Yes I'm well aware of Yuki Nagato's position as an exposition device. Still beside my point for about the 5th time in a row though. It doesn't matter if it was in her control, she supplanted Haruhi's powers effortlessly after all of that build up in the first three novels and establishing Haruhi's near godlike abilities as the catalyst for why the current SOS-Dan scenario even exists. It makes the series writing look fast and loose is what I'm getting at and also like Tanigawa can and will find ways to drag this franchise into sidestory detour after side story detour instead of moving things ahead. I'm also starting to look at Disappearance more and more as canonized Yuki Nagato fanfiction as the days go by.
I don't really approve of the eight episodes, but here are the quotes. Not the exact line, but in the movie, Kyon said:
Given enough time, even an emotionless interface like you would start to develop emotions.
And boy, for human standards, did she have a lot of TIME. And here, a line from the novels (I didn't notice this in the movie):
[I]I suddenly thought of the behavior and mannerisms of Nagato after summer, which were slightly different from before
I think you ought to double check whether that line from the novels was in the movie or not because if not then I have another big problem....this time with the part of the movie that I thought was pretty much solid. With all of that mopey throw away dialogue by Kyon that they managed to work into the early parts of this 164 minute movie....if they truly failed to include something as insightful, relevant and reflective as that line you just quoted (something that would have changed the tone of Yuki Nagato's bender and made it look pitiable and understandable) then this adaptation just got even further from the perfect and flawless affair that others are claiming. At least by my standards.
Uh, did you miss the part where the novels (and the entire franchise for that matter) have been on hiatus for the past 3 years? And you complain about 32 episodes? LoGH has 110 episodes. What do you have against 32?
Ever wonder why the novels are on hiatus? I personally think it's because Tanigawa has no idea where he wants to go with the story and has run out of sidestory detours to take the characters through like he has been since the ending to Melancholy, which to me was by far the best book and not Disappearance as seems to be the case for everyone else. Or maybe he's under pressure from Kadokawa Shoten to actually develop from the point where he's left off for a change and to start moving things forward.
And that whole moving things forward plea that I'm making is why I brought up the LOGH 110 episodes vs. Haruhi 32 comparison contrast. You see for being a monstrous 110 episodes (+52 OVA episodes) where you'd think things might drag for long stretches, LOGH always seems to be moving the narrative of the galaxy forward each and every episode ("the history of the galaxy turns another page"). At the end of any of those 110 episodes the situation is never the same as it was at the beginning of it. Somebody has been developed, somebody has passed on, a new alliance has been forged...something big has happened that will affect the next episode and things down the line.
Haruhi in it's 32 episodes feels like it hasn't moved forward or developed anybody besides Yuki Nagato in ages, and even she's still shrouded with a large veil of mystery and secrecy as her dominant character trait. The SOS-Dan club activities are the status quo and while things do happen to disrupt them there never seem to be any lasting ramifications because the story has been stuck in the same cyclical time travel arc for the equivalent of the approximately 6 novels that have been translated to anime. The situation always seem to be getting brought back to the same initial point where the whole affair started (Endless Eight, Disappearance, even Melancholy are examples) and it's frustrating to watch.
Then there's the character development. Kyon? Still a miserable, mopey and sarcastic teenager. Haruhi? Still a bossy, moody loudmouth who has to be appeased. Mikuru? Still a moeblob whose only interesting story arc in being a time traveller is apparently just too big a secret to ever have any light shed upon it. Nagato? Has shown signs of evolving as a character, but then going from being a near passive mute to being an expositional device with a vague hint of emotion isn't exactly a huge leap. Koizumi? :D :thinker: since the second he was introduced. Though what about his whole bit with being caught in a lifestyle as an esper when he'd rather just live a normal life? That could have been an interesting and meaningful pursuit, but it hasn't moved since the first novel. Even Asakura Ryoko who might have been used differently or developed on during her second stint as a player was used the exact same way as she was the first time around, but this time because of what looked like some bizarre over-protective yuri fetish for Nagato instead of for the sake of a story relevant cause. That's the difference in boldness between Melancholy which looked like it had a grand story to start and Disappearance which looks like Otaku appeasement though.
This is what people who don't pay attention think. Look at the book Kyon took the bookmark from in the movie. He immediately noticed it since it's the same one that Yuki gave to Kyon in Ep02 (2009), which contained the bookmark that told him to meet up at the park. The escape program was supposed to be as discrete as possible in order for Yuki to be able to set it up in the first place. Remember, anything remotely indiscreet that she left behind would end up being reverted. This also applies to the world as a whole. Taniguchi's cold, Koizumi and Haruhi in Kyouyen. Everything was set up by Yuki to make triggering the program possible yet still incredibly hard.
Koizumi did most of the problem solving it looked like or at least did the most to get the ball rolling. Having everybody in the same room also seemed to happen by sheer dumb luck though. Though imagine if it hadn't just taken Kyon about a minute to clue in to the fact that Kunikida and Taniguchi were talking about that Haruhi and he just failed to pay any attention at all? He may never have stumbled into the puzzles solution which he didn't even recognize he had until the program Yuki.N> told him he did. How's that for an inspiring lead.....
Not true. Change in Haruhi is subtle, yet it happens all the time (progressively).
I disagree. See above.
Most likely. Don't go batshit insane on us now. :heh:
Might be a little late in that regard. ;)
My overall impression of the movie is that it was pretty good, but not perfect, yet enough to keep me interested in the series. What interests me in particular is how KyoAni will adapt the rest of the books, (particularly the 7th book, which I consider the best in the series for a variety of reasons.) and how they tie into what has already been adapted. So my real judgement of the movie might not formulate for another year.( I wonder what it will be, the excellent swan song of mishandled franchise, or the second, greater dawn of the series.)
Ice Block
2010-04-19, 07:22
All of this serves to make me wonder why they don't just show the damn thing or have it feature more heavily in a story arc.
How are you going to explicitly state that through Kyon's view without resorting to Yuki exposition? Do you want more exposition? Are you a masochist? Or do you just need to burn some calories to keep yourself fit by complaining and complaining? :heh:
Seriously though, everything I had said is either heavily implied or outright stated in your face. You have to try hard in not paying attention to not get anything. And if for some reason you're not getting the implications, then you should use your head and think more (this is for those instances where things are purposely left ambiguous, so that you may infer a character's motives from their actions, tone, or through Kyon's insights -- and this is what the narrative heavily relies on, Kyon's insights).
And to me it looks like Ryoko could have gotten them somewhere or gotten the ball rolling in a new direction towards new discoveries, but I guess the DITE is just the equivalent of a very lazy scientist who would like to make new discoveries but doesn't really care as long as he keeps getting his grants...in this case periodic updates by Nagato.
Perhaps, but then is it really necessary? Is it safe, or are results guaranteed? High-risk, low-yield maneuvers are not positively looked upon in science, and that is exactly what Ryoko's faction is trying to push. And you do know that "discoveries" aren't instant too, don't you? Advances in science take significant amounts of both time and money invested in R&D.
It doesn't matter if it was in her control, she supplanted Haruhi's powers effortlessly after all of that build up in the first three novels and establishing Haruhi's near godlike abilities as the catalyst for why the current SOS-Dan scenario even exists. It makes the series writing look fast and loose is what I'm getting at and also like Tanigawa can and will find ways to drag this franchise into sidestory detour after side story detour instead of moving things ahead. I'm also starting to look at Disappearance more and more as canonized Yuki Nagato fanfiction as the days go by.
I see these excuses thrown around all the time. And do you know where? 4chan's [a/. Everything [a/non doesn't understand is immediately dismissed as "bad writing", even if it easily makes sense if you even just stop for a moment and think about it. And have you read up until Volume 9? Most of the side stories (even main arcs) serve as either buildup or epilogues to main arcs. They even foreshadow plot details that will be looked upon in the future. For example:
Boredom is the epilogue to Melancholy.
Ep00 and Live a Live are epilogues of Sighs.
BLR is revisited in Disappearance.
Endless Eight, Day of Sagittarius and Someday in the Rain, together, hint at Disappearance (observe Yuki's actions and Kyon's insights carefully throughout these episodes).
The concept of "stealing" Haruhi's powers (Disappearance) is revisited in Dissociation/Surprise.
Charmed at First Sight LOVER references Yuki's changes through Disappearance (it's an epilogue of sorts).
SMS foreshadows Dissociation.
Melancholy of Asahina Mikuru is a prologue to Intrigues.
Intrigues prologue wraps up Disappearance.
EiC introduces Kimidori as a humanoid interface, setting up for Dissociation/Surprise.
Wandering Shadow leaves hints for a future plot point involving Shamisen.
Intrigues sets up the possibility for opposing factions.
Haruhi's powers are quite easy to model. Her powers are a separate entity from herself, and can be stolen. In a character battle, in order to defeat Haruhi, you'd have to analyze her powers first without invoking her wrath or boredom, then once you figure out how to utilize it, use it against her. That is what Yuki did. This act is also touched upon in the later novels (refer to above spoiler). Technically, only data interfaces can do this, since only they have the necessary observation and reality-altering powers.
I think you ought to double check whether that line from the novels was in the movie or not because if not then I have another big problem....this time with the part of the movie that I thought was pretty much solid. With all of that mopey throw away dialogue by Kyon that they managed to work into the early parts of this 164 minute movie....if they truly failed to include something as insightful, relevant and reflective as that line you just quoted (something that would have changed the tone of Yuki Nagato's bender and made it look pitiable and understandable) then this adaptation just got even further from the perfect and flawless affair that others are claiming. At least by my standards.
Eh? Would you rather have everything be spoonfed to you? This has already been touched upon in the series. If you rewatch the whole series in the 2009 order, you would notice how Kyon notes relatively large changes in Yuki's behavior after Endless Eight. See: Live a Live, Day of Sagittarius, Someday in the Rain. Of course, most instances here aren't spelled out too (e.g. double cardigan in Someday in the Rain).
Ever wonder why the novels are on hiatus? I personally think it's because Tanigawa has no idea where he wants to go with the story and has run out of sidestory detours to take the characters through like he has been since the ending to Melancholy, which to me was by far the best book and not Disappearance as seems to be the case for everyone else. Or maybe he's under pressure from Kadokawa Shoten to actually develop from the point where he's left off for a change and to start moving things forward.
Two main reasons:
Kadokawa marketing.
Writer's block (highly unlikely, since the two novels were supposed to be a back-to-back releases).
Disappearance is the fan favorite mainly because of two things:
It's where the novels start going into serious mode.
Yuki character development (and Kyon, finally accepting that he likes Haruhi's chaotic world, and prefers it over a normal world where oddities don't exist), and Alt!Yuki (not to mention Alt!Everything).
Personally, in terms of plot, I think Intrigues is the best book in the franchise.
Haruhi in it's 32 episodes feels like it hasn't moved forward or developed anybody besides Yuki Nagato in ages, and even she's still shrouded with a large veil of mystery and secrecy as her dominant character trait. The SOS-Dan club activities are the status quo and while things do happen to disrupt them there never seem to be any lasting ramifications because the story has been stuck in the same cyclical time travel arc for the equivalent of the approximately 6 novels that have been translated to anime. The situation always seem to be getting brought back to the same initial point where the whole affair started (Endless Eight, Disappearance, even Melancholy are examples) and it's frustrating to watch.
Uh, no. I'll explain below. And of course, isn't that the whole point of the SOS brigade's factions? It is to keep the status quo, to let "God" be and appease her, to make sure she doesn't break CTCs, and to observe how to break conservation laws and translate this information to evolve a race of sentient data entities, all while keeping her oblivious of their presence her abilities in order to prevent possible universal catastrophe. Remember Kyon's threat to the DITE?
If they have any complaints, I will take Haruhi and recreate the world completely. We'll make a world where you're here, but the DITE doesn't exist. It would be a piece of cake for Haruhi. We will get you back, even if we have to recreate the entire universe from scratch.
[development stuff]
Plot? The brigade has began growing steadily as a team. That was the whole point of the introductory volumes anyway. Disappearance is the first of the non-introductory ones, where we learn that Haruhi's powers can be stolen.
Kyon? Ithekro laid it out quite clearly here (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=3006809&postcount=156).
Haruhi? She has changed from being gloomy and short-tempered, to being hyperactively proactive, to being a pushy brigade leader with tsundere moments.
Yuki? Note changes from Endless Eight, Day of Sagittarius, Live a Live, and on to Disappearance epilogue (saying "thank you").
Koizumi? He has many personalities. We don't actually see him develop, since he is always wearing his happy face mask. Also recall that he has access to Haruhi's unconscious thoughts nearly all the time (I imagine this makes it harder to keep up a straight face). In Sighs, however, he tries to share his burdens with Kyon, and even tries to warn him of the other factions' motives. This is touched upon again in the latter books.
I agree, that might not be much. But then, we're only about half-way through the available content, and even less compared to the full series.
Koizumi did most of the problem solving it looked like or at least did the most to get the ball rolling. Having everybody in the same room also seemed to happen by sheer dumb luck though. Though imagine if it hadn't just taken Kyon about a minute to clue in to the fact that Kunikida and Taniguchi were talking about that Haruhi and he just failed to pay any attention at all? He may never have stumbled into the puzzles solution which he didn't even recognize he had until the program Yuki.N> told him he did. How's that for an inspiring lead...
Not really. He was even in slight opposition to Haruhi's growing interest in Kyon's story. Basically, the catalyst is still Haruhi. Since their personalities are still the same, it won't be too hard to believe that Alt!Haruhi would do the same thing Haruhi did (and indeed she did, with Alt!Mikuru's kidnapping mirroring the original). And, well, that's the whole point of making it discreet anyway. The mystery behind the clue (I think it served more as a motivator than a clue) perhaps assured Yuki that Kyon will never discover it if he couldn't find Haruhi, hence she didn't delete it when she altered the world. Kyon had almost given up by then, and had Taniguchi stayed sick, the escape program would have never been activated.
Might be a little late in that regard. ;)
Ah, no worries. I'm sure my future self will come to save me. :heh:
Kaioshin Sama
2010-04-19, 14:26
How are you going to explicitly state that through Kyon's view without resorting to Yuki exposition? Do you want more exposition? Are you a masochist? Or do you just need to burn some calories to keep yourself fit by complaining and complaining? :heh:
Seriously though, everything I had said is either heavily implied or outright stated in your face. You have to try hard in not paying attention to not get anything. And if for some reason you're not getting the implications, then you should use your head and think more (this is for those instances where things are purposely left ambiguous, so that you may infer a character's motives from their actions, tone, or through Kyon's insights -- and this is what the narrative heavily relies on, Kyon's insights).
I think Nagato provides plenty of exposition. Otherwise I meant featuring the actual DITE in an arc at some point to get to the bottom of it's true nature.
Perhaps, but then is it really necessary? Is it safe, or are results guaranteed? High-risk, low-yield maneuvers are not positively looked upon in science, and that is exactly what Ryoko's faction is trying to push. And you do know that "discoveries" aren't instant too, don't you? Advances in science take significant amounts of both time and money invested in R&D.
I think what Ryoko understood is that sometimes in order to make a breakthrough you have to take a risk. Then again Kyoto Animation and Tanigawa seem to disagree with this notion in how they construct their scripts. Also play it safe and traditional seems to border on social mores in Japan so perhaps this is just a radical outsiders thoughts. I'm sure the fans of the franchise would have it no other way than to maintain the status quo forever.
I see these excuses thrown around all the time. And do you know where? 4chan's [a/. Everything [a/non doesn't understand is immediately dismissed as "bad writing", even if it easily makes sense if you even just stop for a moment and think about it. And have you read up until Volume 9? Most of the side stories (even main arcs) serve as either buildup or epilogues to main arcs. They even foreshadow plot details that will be looked upon in the future. For example:
Boredom is the epilogue to Melancholy.
Ep00 and Live a Live are epilogues of Sighs.
BLR is revisited in Disappearance.
Endless Eight, Day of Sagittarius and Someday in the Rain, together, hint at Disappearance (observe Yuki's actions and Kyon's insights carefully throughout these episodes).
The concept of "stealing" Haruhi's powers (Disappearance) is revisited in Dissociation/Surprise.
Charmed at First Sight LOVER references Yuki's changes through Disappearance (it's an epilogue of sorts).
SMS foreshadows Dissociation.
Melancholy of Asahina Mikuru is a prologue to Intrigues.
Intrigues prologue wraps up Disappearance.
EiC introduces Kimidori as a humanoid interface, setting up for Dissociation/Surprise.
Wandering Shadow leaves hints for a future plot point involving Shamisen.
Intrigues sets up the possibility for opposing factions.
I haven't read any of those novels because when I was still reading them I lost interest around the point where I finished reading Disappearance. If that was the high point of the novels (as I believed then because that was what I was told) and I found it that mediocore then.....well.....anyway I guess I've been demoted to an anonymous since I won't find the movie's writing completely flawless, tight and endlessly praisable.
Haruhi's powers are quite easy to model. Her powers are a separate entity from herself, and can be stolen. In a character battle, in order to defeat Haruhi, you'd have to analyze her powers first without invoking her wrath or boredom, then once you figure out how to utilize it, use it against her. That is what Yuki did. This act is also touched upon in the later novels (refer to above spoiler). Technically, only data interfaces can do this, since only they have the necessary observation and reality-altering powers.
That wasn't how it was portrayed in the first three novels as I said and I'm still not getting why if this is the case that the Data Entity couldn't have come to the same conclusion. So anyway Haruhi is a god to the fans and to Koizumi, yet her powers are just borrowed somehow? Wow this franchise......I don't understand why it is by the way that if I understand something about the franchise I have to accept that it's good for it, or rather my interest in it? You seem to not want to separate enjoyment from understanding like I do, and I've basically been talking about the former the whole time while only bringing the latter in when it's necessary.
Eh? Would you rather have everything be spoonfed to you? This has already been touched upon in the series. If you rewatch the whole series in the 2009 order, you would notice how Kyon notes relatively large changes in Yuki's behavior after Endless Eight. See: Live a Live, Day of Sagittarius, Someday in the Rain. Of course, most instances here aren't spelled out too (e.g. double cardigan in Someday in the Rain).
Too bad they still aren't very visible to the viewer eh? Ever hear of the concept of "show, don't tell"? Then again they have done a little showing, but Kyoani/Tanigawa's idea of showing change seems to be showing somebody with a different article of clothing on or a different hairstyle than usual. This is huge stuff eh? :heh:
Two main reasons:
Kadokawa marketing.
Writer's block (highly unlikely, since the two novels were supposed to be a back-to-back releases).
Disappearance is the fan favorite mainly because of two things:
It's where the novels start going into serious mode.
Yuki character development (and Kyon, finally accepting that he likes Haruhi's chaotic world, and prefers it over a normal world where oddities don't exist), and Alt!Yuki (not to mention Alt!Everything).
Personally, in terms of plot, I think Intrigues is the best book in the franchise.
Yeah as I said I think it's because he doesn't know where he wants to go with the franchise. Kadokawa Marketing is also a possibility. And if it's true about what you say regarding a tone shift and that Disappearance is the building block for that then maybe I might check out the later novels. If executed well that might just be the kick in the pants I'm looking for to rebuild some interest in this franchise.
Uh, no. I'll explain below. And of course, isn't that the whole point of the SOS brigade's factions? It is to keep the status quo, to let "God" be and appease her, to make sure she doesn't break CTCs, and to observe how to break conservation laws and translate this information to evolve a race of sentient data entities, all while keeping her oblivious of their presence her abilities in order to prevent possible universal catastrophe. Remember Kyon's threat to the DITE?
If they have any complaints, I will take Haruhi and recreate the world completely. We'll make a world where you're here, but the DITE doesn't exist. It would be a piece of cake for Haruhi. We will get you back, even if we have to recreate the entire universe from scratch.
You're just wasting time explaining what I already know, but don't see any reason why I should accept. Considering the only characters theories who I agree with has been killed off twice now. Though I suppose now if "God" Haruhi misbehaves it's just as easy as Nagato's giving her a spanking and taking her powers away for a while until she learns to play nice since they are easily transferable by your own explanation and Nagato's demonstration. Right now the ONLY reason that Haruhi seems to still exist with god powers is because Kyon suddenly decided he likes being her foil in the SOS-dan club, a rather selfish choice to make for his apparent sub-fetish since it continues to put the rest of the universe in danger of being overwritten by Haruhi.
Plot? The brigade has began growing steadily as a team. That was the whole point of the introductory volumes anyway. Disappearance is the first of the non-introductory ones, where we learn that Haruhi's powers can be stolen.
So I hear.
Kyon? Ithekro laid it out quite clearly here (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=3006809&postcount=156).
Read it, agree on some points, but not others. It's kind of telling though that most of the development he mentioned happened in the Melancholy story arc right at the beginning of the overall story and that the two things he mentioned that are the hardest pills for me to swallow regarding Kyon's development happened in Disappearance.
I agree, that might not be much. But then, we're only about half-way through the available content, and even less compared to the full series.
I kind of hope your not leading me on about the future stories building character and concept. I've been lead to hope that this franchise has a future far to many times only to have that belief dashed by a dose of reality the next time I check out a story arc.
Not really. He was even in slight opposition to Haruhi's growing interest in Kyon's story. Basically, the catalyst is still Haruhi. Since their personalities are still the same, it won't be too hard to believe that Alt!Haruhi would do the same thing Haruhi did (and indeed she did, with Alt!Mikuru's kidnapping mirroring the original). And, well, that's the whole point of making it discreet anyway. The mystery behind the clue (I think it served more as a motivator than a clue) perhaps assured Yuki that Kyon will never discover it if he couldn't find Haruhi, hence she didn't delete it when she altered the world. Kyon had almost given up by then, and had Taniguchi stayed sick, the escape program would have never been activated.
Interesting theory, however it gets me thinking about something else. If Haruhi is basically the exact same and yet has apparently been depowered in the alternate timeline....why not just stick with that where Kyon can hang out with the gang still and yet not have the whole fabric of the universe endangered by the meddling of outside forces like the DITE, or Haruhi's own whims?
Anyway I think your next reply ought to be in PM and likewise for me. This is starting to sound like two dudes bouncing ideas and point/counterpoints off of each other now and not a forum discussion.
I haven't read any of those novels because when I was still reading them I lost interest around the point where I finished reading Disappearance. If that was the high point of the novels (as I believed then because that was what I was told) and I found it that mediocore then.....well.....anyway I guess I've been demoted to an anonymous since I won't find the movie's writing completely flawless, tight and endlessly praisable.
For someone claiming indifference for this series... you sure do spend quite a bit of time with all these walls of text...
What's not to praise about the movie? Solid production values? Well done sequences? Great performances by the seiyuu? Seriously, KyoAni went all out and delivered.
If you didn't like the book WTH are you doing watching the movie... more so, why did you feel the need to go through watching a low quality cam-rip which was over 2hrs and 30mins?
Haters will hate.
DJ_RockmanX
2010-04-21, 01:33
Finally watched this thing. For being the second to last showing at this cinema, there were still quite a lot of people in the theater. But for good reason. The movie basically did everything that needed to be done.
For someone claiming indifference for this series... you sure do spend quite a bit of time with all these walls of text...
What's not to praise about the movie? Solid production values? Well done sequences? Great performances by the seiyuu? Seriously, KyoAni went all out and delivered.
If you didn't like the book WTH are you doing watching the movie... more so, why did you feel the need to go through watching a low quality cam-rip which was over 2hrs and 30mins?
Haters will hate.
Probably because the movie is the most over-hyped anime film to come out of the most over-hyped anime franchise in the history of over-hyped anime franchises. It needs some criticism to balance the rapturous otakugasms. It's an okay movie. It could even be called a good movie, but it certainly isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread. His criticisms about the pacing of the film are spot-on. It drags horribly during the first hour (almost to the point where there were better-paced Endless Eight episodes,) and slows down whenever Kyon mental voice-overs take place. When watching the film and comparing it to what I remembered of the old pirate fan-translations of the novels, I noticed that what was likely to be cut was some of these Kyon internal dialogues. Arguably, they didn't cut enough of them. A good story shows us what's going on. It doesn't just tell us while the protagonist is wandering around wasting screen time until he finally finds Sociopath Sue, and she decides to get the old band back together.
We probably could've done with less having it beaten into us that Nagato v. 2.0 is a useless moeblob (managing to be even more useless than Mikuru, Queen of Moeblobs,) that's terrified of everything and who has this bizarre Stockholm Syndrome-style affection for Kyon. I was quite happy when Asakura v. 2.0 opened her mouth around Kyon, because the way she talked to him seemed to indicate that she thought he's an idiot, and I happened to agree with her.
Yes, the production values are high. The acting was top-notch. There were many very well-done scenes. If they'd paced the first half better, it'd be a very good film. Maybe even an excellent one. Still wouldn't be a great film, let alone the greatest thing since sliced bread. As it is, it's just a good film with massive appeal to the franchise's rabid fanbase and limited accessibility to everyone else. Don't get me wrong. I'll snap up this film as soon as it's released on DVD in the States. I'd even strongly recommend it to people who like the anime, and people whom I think might enjoy the anime, were they exposed to it. But would I recommend it to someone who's never seen an anime movie before? No, they'd just come away more confused than they were when they started. Would I recommend it to somebody who's seen the anime and didn't like it? No. If I, as an admitted Haruhi fan, couldn't get through the slowest parts of the film without snarking . . . they're going to be rather less appreciative of this film.
Ice Block
2010-04-21, 14:46
You do know that the act of criticizing something just because it is extensively discussed, praised, or "over-hyped", is the very definition of the Haters Gonna Hate meme, right?
It drags horribly during the first hour... A good story shows us what's going on.
Hoho... Just because the pacing doesn't appeal to you, it doesn't mean that it "dragged horribly". It's called "set-up", and I can attest that a lot of fans who watched to camrip even "forgot" they were watching a camrip 20 minutes in. For some, it's that immersive. Would you rather rush through the introduction, and cut out most, if not all, of Kyon's thoughts and monologues? Also keep in mind that this is told strictly from a first-person perspective. Perhaps this style is where your problem lies. Just as an exercise, how would you imagine telling the same story from a first-person perspective, while showing more than what our protagonist sees?
We probably could've done with less having it beaten into us that Nagato v. 2.0 is a useless moeblob
Could have. But then, there was the whole contrast between Normal Yuki and Alien Yuki. Remember, all the other characters still had the same old personality. And this wasn't the point at all. It was there to sway Kyon into thinking, "perhaps this isn't such a bad situation after all". Yuki just wanted a chance at a normal life, and perhaps a chance at Kyon. But no, Kyon had to crush her, twice. Just look at her reaction when he returned the registration form to her. :(
But would I recommend it to someone who's never seen an anime movie before? No, they'd just come away more confused than they were when they started. Would I recommend it to somebody who's seen the anime and didn't like it? No. If I, as an admitted Haruhi fan, couldn't get through the slowest parts of the film without snarking . . . they're going to be rather less appreciative of this film.
It goes without saying. The series exists for a reason -- background and continuity. Would you expect to fully understand KnK 5/6/7 without seeing the previous films? How about King of Eden / Paradise Lost? Return of the Jedi? Return of the King? Seriously though, given the advertising material for this movie (which gave away almost all the twists), and the time span before announcement and screening (which took less than six months), you'd know that this is specifically marketed to the fans, not the casuals.
I wouldn't be too sure about that. There are some people who aren't fans (even a few haters) of the franchise but nevertheless claimed that the movie was very good. There are even people who watched the entire series just to see the movie, and liked it. And, I remember there was a magazine scan somewhere in the spoilers/anticipation threads that showed a rating of 93/100 (can't confirm if this came from a non-fan or not).
Kaioshin Sama
2010-04-21, 16:45
Probably because the movie is the most over-hyped anime film to come out of the most over-hyped anime franchise in the history of over-hyped anime franchises. It needs some criticism to balance the rapturous otakugasms. It's an okay movie. It could even be called a good movie, but it certainly isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread. His criticisms about the pacing of the film are spot-on. It drags horribly during the first hour (almost to the point where there were better-paced Endless Eight episodes,) and slows down whenever Kyon mental voice-overs take place. When watching the film and comparing it to what I remembered of the old pirate fan-translations of the novels, I noticed that what was likely to be cut was some of these Kyon internal dialogues. Arguably, they didn't cut enough of them. A good story shows us what's going on. It doesn't just tell us while the protagonist is wandering around wasting screen time until he finally finds Sociopath Sue, and she decides to get the old band back together.
We probably could've done with less having it beaten into us that Nagato v. 2.0 is a useless moeblob (managing to be even more useless than Mikuru, Queen of Moeblobs,) that's terrified of everything and who has this bizarre Stockholm Syndrome-style affection for Kyon. I was quite happy when Asakura v. 2.0 opened her mouth around Kyon, because the way she talked to him seemed to indicate that she thought he's an idiot, and I happened to agree with her.
Yes, the production values are high. The acting was top-notch. There were many very well-done scenes. If they'd paced the first half better, it'd be a very good film. Maybe even an excellent one. Still wouldn't be a great film, let alone the greatest thing since sliced bread. As it is, it's just a good film with massive appeal to the franchise's rabid fanbase and limited accessibility to everyone else. Don't get me wrong. I'll snap up this film as soon as it's released on DVD in the States. I'd even strongly recommend it to people who like the anime, and people whom I think might enjoy the anime, were they exposed to it. But would I recommend it to someone who's never seen an anime movie before? No, they'd just come away more confused than they were when they started. Would I recommend it to somebody who's seen the anime and didn't like it? No. If I, as an admitted Haruhi fan, couldn't get through the slowest parts of the film without snarking . . . they're going to be rather less appreciative of this film.
Basically this. I still think it's possible to enjoy something without having to borderline worship it as perfection, but tell that to the peanut gallery that seems so unaccepting of people who are willing to ask questions and discuss the problems they had with a movie.
= right?
Hoho... Just because the pacing doesn't appeal to you, it doesn't mean that it "dragged horribly". It's called "set-up", and I can attest that a lot of fans who watched to camrip even "forgot" they were watching a camrip 20 minutes in. For some, it's that immersive. Would you rather rush through the introduction, and cut out most, if not all, of Kyon's thoughts and monologues? Also keep in mind that this is told strictly from a first-person perspective. Perhaps this style is where your problem lies. Just as an exercise, how would you imagine telling the same story from a first-person perspective, while showing more than what our protagonist sees?
I'm not a fanboy okay, I'm a casual viewer who was looking for something to watch one night and had been wanting to at least check out the latest high quality animation feature. Nothing was going to make me forget that I was watching the film at a dutch angle pretty much the entire time, but did I fault it for that? I think it's a little beside the point, but there are people faulting it for that actually and I would agree that that's a little excessive, but can you see how it might be a little annoying to have people trying to get me to accept that the film and story was absolutely perfect as is? That's kind of the very definition of fanboys will be fanboys. I mean considering that I'm not exactly going out and telling people, "you can't enjoy this pacing and you have to accept that my claiming it drags must make it so for everyone". I'm perfectly happy if people will just see things my way and why I've come to my conclusions about the film. It's up to them if they want to change how they feel about it and there's not much I can do (nor do I really care or want to) to make them change their mind.
However, the fact that you refer to this as "our problem" like somehow we are abnormal for not getting on our knees in revelation before Disappearance's verbatim portrayal of a novel that I personally already found fun but flawed is the part that's getting me though. How could someone not find this film perfect and unabashedly enjoyable every second of the way.....just how couldn't they? Oh the humanity....*faints*
Though to be frank, maybe you ought to just consider that I'm perfectly comfortable with the level of appreciation and criticism I have for the Haruhi franchise at the moment and not try to force things to much eh?
For someone claiming indifference for this series... you sure do spend quite a bit of time with all these walls of text...
What's not to praise about the movie? Solid production values? Well done sequences? Great performances by the seiyuu? Seriously, KyoAni went all out and delivered.
If you didn't like the book WTH are you doing watching the movie... more so, why did you feel the need to go through watching a low quality cam-rip which was over 2hrs and 30mins?
Haters will hate.
This was a few years ago I was reading the novels and I had no desire to immediately continue to do so at the time I read Disappearance. I happen to be reading and greatly enjoying Buddha by Osamu Tezuka right now, but I won't be picking up volume 3 for at least another few months simply because I want to save money to pay off my new computer. Sometimes aspects of life and free time intrude on others and something has to give.
I've said what I have to say about the movie and am not going to change it just because many people love and worship Kyoani and Haruhi.
As for why I would watch the movie? Why not? I said I found the book fun but flawed and perhaps on the mediocre side and I wanted to see if the movie could correct some of the issues I had with the book. It did, but I felt it created several new ones to fill their place in the process. Better question though is why do you even care? Clearly I'm just nothing more than a hater too you and Ice Block after all.....though if sayings like "fun but flawed" or "poor pacing" are the words of haters than I guess it doesn't take much. So be it, crown me the King of Haters if it'll make you feel a little better.
You do know that the act of criticizing something just because it is extensively discussed, praised, or "over-hyped", is the very definition of the Haters Gonna Hate meme, right?
I try to live my life blissfully unaware of internet memes. Unless they suit me, of course.
Hoho... Just because the pacing doesn't appeal to you, it doesn't mean that it "dragged horribly". It's called "set-up", and I can attest that a lot of fans who watched to camrip even "forgot" they were watching a camrip 20 minutes in. For some, it's that immersive.
When I did my review, I tied up and left my inner Haruhi fanboy at the door; and tried to review it as just another sci-fi film. Which meant looking at it from the point of view of someone with no familiarity with the Haruhi-verse. Perhaps even from the point of view of someone ambivalent, or possibly even antipathetic to Haruhi. If the movie can survive that kind of review, then it's a very good film in general. If not, it's just a love letter to the fans.
Would you rather rush through the introduction, and cut out most, if not all, of Kyon's thoughts and monologues? Also keep in mind that this is told strictly from a first-person perspective. Perhaps this style is where your problem lies. Just as an exercise, how would you imagine telling the same story from a first-person perspective, while showing more than what our protagonist sees?
For the purposes of film criticism, Tanigawa's style is my problem. It works for a short anime episode, because we get Kyon's internal stream of consciousness in manageable bite-sized chunks. For a movie, it turns into a long, long soliloquy verging on expository infodump. It was interesting at the end, when it came with all that imagery. But watching Kyon mope about the halls of North High talking to himself . . . a little less interesting. You could've trimmed more of that out and let the scenes speak for themselves. Watching Kyon reacting to seeing Asakura again, asking her if she tried to kill him . . . watching his reaction to being spurned by Mikuru and threatened by Tsuruya (who were established as knowing Kyon in the opening scenes) would've been more than enough to convey that Bad Things have happened without quite as much stream-of-consciousness exposition.
Could have. But then, there was the whole contrast between Normal Yuki and Alien Yuki.
One is background scenery and a walking Deus Ex Machina. The other is afraid of her own shadow. Okay, so we need to see the sort of normal world Yuki would create. Make her shy, a little awkward, and show emotions. The difference between the Yukis will be shocking enough when Kyon begins molesting the flow of time itself and the viewer is introduced to hyper-competent Deus Nagato Ex Machina. There was no need to turn moe-Yuki up to freakin' eleven.
Remember, all the other characters still had the same old personality. And this wasn't the point at all. It was there to sway Kyon into thinking, "perhaps this isn't such a bad situation after all". Yuki just wanted a chance at a normal life, and perhaps a chance at Kyon. But no, Kyon had to crush her, twice. Just look at her reaction when he returned the registration form to her. :(
I noted the reaction. I was moved. By then, the pace had picked up. It was a bit muted when I remembered that he introduces himself to her by nearly assaulting her, trashing her clubroom, trying to look at her Harry Potter yaoi fanfic, being all weird around her best friend, etc. And yet, she likes him anyway.
It goes without saying. The series exists for a reason -- background and continuity. Would you expect to fully understand KnK 5/6/7 without seeing the previous films? How about King of Eden / Paradise Lost? Return of the Jedi? Return of the King? Seriously though, given the advertising material for this movie (which gave away almost all the twists), and the time span before announcement and screening (which took less than six months), you'd know that this is specifically marketed to the fans, not the casuals.
And then we have people acting like this was literally the greatest thing since sliced bread. Possibly even the greatest thing since bread itself. The point of my criticism of the film is that it isn't really the greatest thing since sliced bread. It's just like many other anime films . . . a love letter to the fans. Yes, if you're a fan of the Haruhi franchise, you will probably love this film. It may even convince you to forgive Kadokawa and KyoAni for Endless Eight. It is a faithful adaptation of the light novel. What it is not, is the embodiment of perfection captured on film.
I wouldn't be too sure about that. There are some people who aren't fans (even a few haters) of the franchise but nevertheless claimed that the movie was very good.
Two key phrases here. "Some people" and "very good." Not "most people" and "excellent" or "giving them religious visions of the Lady Haruhi."
There are even people who watched the entire series just to see the movie, and liked it.
Well, if you were willing to go through the whole series first . . . chances are , you're going to like the movie.
And, I remember there was a magazine scan somewhere in the spoilers/anticipation threads that showed a rating of 93/100 (can't confirm if this came from a non-fan or not).
I seem to recall there was some question about who produced that 93/100 rating. Whether it was an objective critic, or whether it was based on exit polling of people having seen the film.
ultimatemegax
2010-04-21, 17:58
I seem to recall there was some question about who produced that 93/100 rating. Whether it was an objective critic, or whether it was based on exit polling of people having seen the film.
The 93/100 90.4/100 (http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/5664/wwwdotuporg665719.jpg) was based on exit polling from people leaving the theatre during opening weekend. There were two reviews on Movie Judge (Japanese movie review site) by critics. One (http://www.cinemaonline.jp/review/geki/11320.html) review scored it 80 out of 100 and the other (http://www.cinemaonline.jp/review/kou/11443.html) scored it 60 out of 100.
wingman32x
2010-04-21, 18:15
The 93/100 90.4/100 (http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/5664/wwwdotuporg665719.jpg) was based on exit polling from people leaving the theatre during opening weekend. There were two reviews on Movie Judge (Japanese movie review site) by critics. One (http://www.cinemaonline.jp/review/geki/11320.html) review scored it 80 out of 100 and the other (http://www.cinemaonline.jp/review/kou/11443.html) scored it 60 out of 100.
I think 80/100 is a fair score for this movie. It was good, but it did drag at times IMO. I felt that they could have shaved 30 minutes off of the movie without hurting the overall plot. Aside from that, it was a pretty good movie. The scene near the end where Kyon was asking questions to a version of himself was really well done and neat to see. Alt. Yuki was pretty cute I must admit. And the movie wrapped up nicely. Seeing Haruhi in a sleeping bag at Kyon's bedside was a pretty good "aww" moment. Really cute. So yeah, it was a good movie.
As for why I would watch the movie? Why not? I said I found the book fun but flawed and perhaps on the mediocre side and I wanted to see if the movie could correct some of the issues I had with the book. It did, but I felt it created several new ones to fill their place in the process. Better question though is why do you even care? Clearly I'm just nothing more than a hater too you and Ice Block after all.....though if sayings like "fun but flawed" or "poor pacing" are the words of haters than I guess it doesn't take much. So be it, crown me the King of Haters if it'll make you feel a little better.
I can understand why you would watch the movie... but why a low quality cam rip? You seem so blasé about your overall experience of this series yet... time and time again you continue to poke holes (with a seemingly encyclopedic knowledge of the series) whenever the opportunity arises.
Yet, you still felt the need to sit through a low quality cam rip.
Q: Was this movie produced with genuine effort and passion?
A: Clearly, yes, everything is well polished (including the background).
Q: Is this movie for everyone?
A: NO, The crew clearly knew who their target audience was and delivered (without skimping).
Q: Will haters hate?
A: Do wizards piss on their robes?
quigonkenny
2010-04-21, 23:47
It drags horribly during the first hour (almost to the point where there were better-paced Endless Eight episodes,)
This is a specious argument. There was nothing wrong with the pacing of the individual E8 episodes. No one has even been arguing that. Individually, they had their own issues, but they weren't all that bad. The problem was with the idea behind their execution, specifically that there were at least four too many of them.
And yes, the first half of the movie drags. It's supposed to. You've got the particularly less draggy portion at the beginning (which I do think they could have cut somewhat) and the intentionally draggy portion once he crosses over, which goes a long way toward helping to explain why Kyon wants to go back when it's so close to what he professes to want (it's boring). Could they have cut a few things? Of course. What movie couldn't, other than those which've had too much cut already?
Basically this. I still think it's possible to enjoy something without having to borderline worship it as perfection, but tell that to the peanut gallery that seems so unaccepting of people who are willing to ask questions and discuss the problems they had with a movie.
I think the reason your posts inspire so much bile and fanboy raeg isn't that you're a "lost lamb to be brought back into the fold", it's that you really don't seem to be able to carry much of an argument without tossing a strawman into the mix. There aren't nearly as many fans who "borderline worship" this movie "as perfection" as you seem to think, and none of those are sapient enough to write anything more complex than some variation of "OMG THIS MOVIE ROXXORZoneoneone".
All painting all of us with that far too broad brush is going to do is make people upset, which may well be the point, but it also masks the few good points you make (and then proceed to hammer on over and over and over).
Rather than "us" trying to change "you", it appears that you focus far too much on accenting the negative and thus trying to "fix" the enjoyment we have toward such an "obviously" flawed movie. Some of us enjoyed the movie more than you did. Get over it. Haters are gonna hate, but lovers are gonna love. And most are going to be somewhere in the middle.
Kaioshin Sama
2010-04-22, 01:07
This is a specious argument. There was nothing wrong with the pacing of the individual E8 episodes. No one has even been arguing that. Individually, they had their own issues, but they weren't all that bad. The problem was with the idea behind their execution, specifically that there were at least four too many of them.
And yes, the first half of the movie drags. It's supposed to. You've got the particularly less draggy portion at the beginning (which I do think they could have cut somewhat) and the intentionally draggy portion once he crosses over, which goes a long way toward helping to explain why Kyon wants to go back when it's so close to what he professes to want (it's boring). Could they have cut a few things? Of course. What movie couldn't, other than those which've had too much cut already?
Oh! It was intentionally dragging during those parts GMT. I guess we just have to accept and appreciate it then....
I think the reason your posts inspire so much bile and fanboy raeg isn't that you're a "lost lamb to be brought back into the fold", it's that you really don't seem to be able to carry much of an argument without tossing a strawman into the mix. There aren't nearly as many fans who "borderline worship" this movie "as perfection" as you seem to think, and none of those are sapient enough to write anything more complex than some variation of "OMG THIS MOVIE ROXXORZoneoneone".
All painting all of us with that far too broad brush is going to do is make people upset, which may well be the point, but it also masks the few good points you make (and then proceed to hammer on over and over and over).
Rather than "us" trying to change "you", it appears that you focus far too much on accenting the negative and thus trying to "fix" the enjoyment we have toward such an "obviously" flawed movie. Some of us enjoyed the movie more than you did. Get over it. Haters are gonna hate, but lovers are gonna love. And most are going to be somewhere in the middle.
So by me posting my impressions in here and then defending myself from an onslaught of "it's that way cause it's supposed to be" and "You don't know enough about the franchise" it's me trying to say others aren't allowed to enjoy the movie more than me? I'm sorry I'm missing the part about who is painting who with the broad brush. In the meantime I think I'll go watch a hockey game and then we'll figure this all out. Keep in mind though that I just got finished saying that I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything and that they are free to make up their own damn minds about the movie. Also note that every single post I've made since my initial commentary on the movie has only been as a reply to something somebody has said to me regarding said commentary. Maybe I don't know....just let it be and I'll have nothing else to say, explain, clarify, whatever? Just a hint.....
Archangel Roy
2010-04-22, 01:17
Sorry that this is off topic but. Its a really great movie. Possibly one of my favorites of all time. People may differ from this opinion, but everyone has their own thoughts, right? So lets keep the flame to our selves?
tyranuus
2010-04-22, 16:09
Without wanting to read to much and spoil it, but is it the sort of movie that only a real Haruhi fan will love, or is it the sort of movie that is a bit of fun as long as you've some idea what came before?
Ive seen fan-orientated movies go either way, some seem to rely on the fans knowledge of the series and evertything that goes with it, whilst others are fine as long as you've got a basic grasp of whats going on.
Im guessing a lot of the time it sticks roughly to the same mix of elements as the anime (bit of sci fi, humour, touch of a romance/relationship undercurrent, lots of Kyon's sarcastic wit and aggravated commentary etc)
A. Esbee
2010-04-22, 17:24
Been reading this conversation for a while now and I wanted to step in for this:
Originally Posted by quigonkenny
This is a specious argument. There was nothing wrong with the pacing of the individual E8 episodes. No one has even been arguing that. Individually, they had their own issues, but they weren't all that bad. The problem was with the idea behind their execution, specifically that there were at least four too many of them.
And yes, the first half of the movie drags. It's supposed to. You've got the particularly less draggy portion at the beginning (which I do think they could have cut somewhat) and the intentionally draggy portion once he crosses over, which goes a long way toward helping to explain why Kyon wants to go back when it's so close to what he professes to want (it's boring). Could they have cut a few things? Of course. What movie couldn't, other than those which've had too much cut already?
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama
Oh! It was intentionally dragging during those parts GMT. I guess we just have to accept and appreciate it then....
Appreciate, certainly not. If it felt like it dragged to you, then you're certainly entitled to feel that way. But I don't think it's unfair to accept that part of the film as being intentionally slow-paced (whether you enjoyed it or not). The color scheme, the music, and indeed the pacing are all designed to create a melancholic atmosphere. For me, I actually found these bits engaging and interesting, because it's the first time we've ever seen Kyon be so emotionally open. His usually cool exterior is cracked open for the first time, and I think it's given just the right amount of time to be effective and justifiable.
Which is not to say that the movie doesn't have slow bits. Personally, I find the time between Kyon finding Haruhi again and Kyon's meeting with Nagato on Tanabata, to be the biggest drag of the film, save for the actual "collecting the keys" bit. Everything after Kyon waking up could easily have been cut down too; it works in a book but in a movie it's just a lot of blabber. But, slowness happens. It's preferable to being too fast and not making sense.
Without wanting to read to much and spoil it, but is it the sort of movie that only a real Haruhi fan will love, or is it the sort of movie that is a bit of fun as long as you've some idea what came before?
In my opinion, it can still be fun if you have some idea, but it's only really effective if you're a fan. As interesting as the debate going on is, it's not a standalone film and shouldn't be treated or judged as one; a lot of it lives and dies on how interested and invested you are in the characters (most particularly Kyon, and Yuki to some extent).
Without wanting to read to much and spoil it, but is it the sort of movie that only a real Haruhi fan will love, or is it the sort of movie that is a bit of fun as long as you've some idea what came before?
Ive seen fan-orientated movies go either way, some seem to rely on the fans knowledge of the series and evertything that goes with it, whilst others are fine as long as you've got a basic grasp of whats going on.
Im guessing a lot of the time it sticks roughly to the same mix of elements as the anime (bit of sci fi, humour, touch of a romance/relationship undercurrent, lots of Kyon's sarcastic wit and aggravated commentary etc)
As long as you really like Kyon's internal monologues, you like Yuki Nagato, and are okay with the anime's humor being turned way down, you will probably like this movie. Which means that, for best results, you should have some familiarity with what came before. Having read (and liked) Melancholy, or seen the first six episodes of the anime in chronological order would satisfy that requirement.
tyranuus
2010-04-22, 19:02
I've seen the 2009 rerun in chronological order so should meet the criteria, Im not an avid fan of the series but I enjoyed the show for what it was. Its a shame humour has been toned down but I can probably understand why. That said a lot of it came from Kyon's monologues anyway so as long as he's kept his unimpressed, sarcastic mindset I should be ok.
quigonkenny
2010-04-23, 02:48
I've seen the 2009 rerun in chronological order so should meet the criteria, Im not an avid fan of the series but I enjoyed the show for what it was. Its a shame humour has been toned down but I can probably understand why. That said a lot of it came from Kyon's monologues anyway so as long as he's kept his unimpressed, sarcastic mindset I should be ok.
There are still a few bits of the signature humor in there, particularly involving Taniguchi, but all in all it does have a darker tone than in the series, and Kyon's monologues are more somber and introspective (not quite emo, I thought, but mileage varies) as a result. If you were able to make it through Endless Eight without chalking your decision to watch the rest up to "for completion's sake", you should enjoy the movie immensely. Even if you hated E8, if you've got any investment in the series, you'll most likely enjoy it.
Just come to it with an open mind, and stop listening to us bicker uselessly until after you've seen it... We can only make it worse. ^_^
Grahf616
2010-04-23, 03:43
I think the honest problem here is that people are trying to defend this movie as something more than a love letter to the fans. My question is simple: is there anything essentially wrong with something that is a love letter to the fans? My assertion is no, of course not.
I don't want to put words into other peoples mouths, but there is obvious hyperbole of perfection here. Some base assumptions have to be made: that most of the audience for this film are people that have watched the series and enjoyed to various extents what they've seen so far and appreciate the way the fourth novel has been handled and transfered into the animated format.
Is this something like, say, Avatar, or The Lord of the Rings? No, not really. For the "worldwide phenomenon" that Haruhi is, it's still a relatively small niche we're talking about here, let's not delude ourselves into thinking it's not. Perhaps it's unfair to compare it to stuff like The Lord of the Rings, which have had way more time to become firmly entrenched, but still, the comparisons must be made. And unlike Avatar, this is by no means a stand alone work, it's just another part of the continuity.
That being said, I think it's somewhat pointless to view it as anything other than a fan send up. To many, the movie is perfect in the role that it fulfils for them: living up to or exceeding their expectations of how this part of the narrative would be handled, especially after all the doubt that was placed after E8.
As for the argument that's been going on. I guess people can't help but become defencive when something they regard highly is brought under fire. Is their fervour justified? I can't really answer that question. This isn't exactly an objective community though, but I think we've already sort of admitted that. And as unfortunate as it is, it's tough being a dissenter in terms of well, anything.
Bah, I'm probably rambling at this point, so I'll leave it at that. Hopefully I've been lucid enough to raise some valid interpretations though.
The only criticism I find illogical, is the one that says the movie has to be judged as a stand-alone film. Problem is, the film wasn't designed to be that way. It's just another "episode" in the entire series.
Would watching The Two Towers alone make much sense if you had never watched The Fellowship of the Ring beforehand? Would you know what the Hell was going on if you watched the Return of the Jedi first without seeing the prior two films?
Pacing and such is subjective, so I'll acknowledge that it may seem excruciating to some. I myself fell asleep literally watching the beginning of Space Odyssey:2001, but it's still ranked as one of the top films globally.
A more accurate assessment would be to ask oneself what did the film set out to do. What was its objective, and did it succeed at them? Anything else is superficial.
Cheers.
Archon_Wing
2010-04-23, 13:16
I suppose it would be fair to say that a minimal familiarity with the anime and the plot basics is needed.
quigonkenny
2010-04-23, 23:13
I suppose it would be fair to say that a minimal familiarity with the anime and the plot basics is needed.
Needed, yes, or else you're going to be completely lost. But like with most individual stories/arcs/whatever of a property, the more you know the better you'll usually enjoy it, so I would recommnd watching the series beforehand, expecially since they were nice enough to "fill up" all the chronological space prior to the movie's timeline... ^_^
tyranuus
2010-04-25, 12:39
This is kind of what I was getting at with my question earlier.
Some films/fan-based material really do rely upon the fan truly loving the series and spotting all the small things to really be someway decent, theres very little explanation of why/how and you're expected just to know things, whereas others just rely on your ability to grasp/knowlege of the basics.
This film seems to be somewhere between the two, whereby the film will carry itself if you've got a rough gist of what its about, but theres more to enjoy if say you're very familiar with the books or the series (or both).
I'm hoping I'll enjoy it when I get round to watching it, and as long as the humour and some of the other elements (for example I like the little tsundere thing between Haruhi and Kyon, and Im half tempted to say that I get the feeling he feels a little something of it back, he just won't admit it, and he DOES have an out and out crush on Mikuru which frustrates Haruhi no end :D) are still intact, or have some representation, I see no reason why I wouldn't.
At least it's not a 're-imagining' :D
Besides, I emphathise with Kyon quite a lot, I'm english (no, I don't like tea and crumpets, GTFO haha) and have a fairly sarcastic, self deprecating sense of humour much like his character does, to the point he's sometimes monologuing stuff I was thinking when I was watching the anime series, as long as this doesn't drop out completely or his character irrevokably change Im thinking I'll probably get on well with the film, I like a bit of plot development now and then, and it's not like Yuki got a massive amount of screen time during the series. (I'm also tempted to go watch the dub and find out how the american VAs portrayed the characters)
Hell I even liked the idea and some of the execution of some of E8, even if I did find myself feeling like it was beginning to drag out and having to just focus on watching for the changes as it hit the 5/6th episode. (they could have dropped at least 2/3 episodes out I think and still conveyed much the same thing, giving them time to animate more actual plot which the fanbase probably would have appreciated).
PS. Skane, no disagreements there, much as it is loved critically, I had to FORCE myself to finish 2001 through, it really does go a bit...good if you like psychedelic colours otherwise switch off!
Haruhi Suzumiya.
Kyon.
Haruhi Suzumiya.
Kyon.
Haruhi Suzumiya.
Kyon.
....
Kyon.
Where are you, Haruhi?
The Disapperance (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=3022636#post3022636)
yakumo-chan
2010-04-27, 22:23
I have watched it and it was great!
I still didnt understand something.... well here you go...
1.who the hell saved kyon???
2.How did kyon get back to the real world???
3.In the ending, when Kyon was in the hospital..,Did Nagato vanished in the real word????
reminders : Please dont tell spoilers from the novels.... just tell me what you know......
1) Since I'm not allowed to spoil it... it was... a man.
2) Check the trailer which has one command.
YUKI.N> READY? _
3) No she didn't.
yakumo-chan
2010-04-28, 02:14
1) Since I'm not allowed to spoil it... it was... a man.
thanks
2) Check the trailer which has one command.
YUKI.N> READY? _
No... not that.... the time when Kyon was stab by a knife.... he was dying right???? and by that time... the world is not the real world... so supposedly he must go back to the real world again.... how did he get back??? Am I to wait for a sequel to know it??
and as far as I remember....
YUKI.N> READY? _ - This code has only brings him back 3 years ago....
3) No she didn't.
how come she is the only one not in the hospital??? yet haruhi said we are complete members here....
2) Yuki made love with him. No, I'm just kidding~
A man injected Yuki Nagato with the pistol, returning her back to normal.
3) Oh she's not inside the room.
yakumo-chan
2010-04-28, 02:52
2) Yuki made love with him. No, I'm just kidding~
A man injected Yuki Nagato with the pistol, returning her back to normal.
3) Oh she's not inside the room.
Oh no that spoils me man!! hehehe just joking....!:heh::heh::heh:
anyways thanks!!!
I think its obvious that the man is the one who injected Yuki Nagato with the pistol...... I wonder who it was.... hmmmmm......
It looks like I have to rewatch this in high definition since I only have watched it in camrip.... hey thanks again!!
I have watched it and it was great!
I still didnt understand something.... well here you go...
It should be obvious who saved Kyon. If the man's voice wasn't enough; the movie makes it pretty clear after Kyon goes up on the hospital roof, and again at the end, just before he steps into the clubroom to partake of the Christmas hot-pot.
Seg-fault/core-dump Nagato was injected with 0 AH Nagato's cure-all program, and the world got fixed. This was done by the same bunch of people who saved Kyon from his pointy death at the hands of Ahnuld Asakura.
Since Nagato and Kyon share a scene on the hospital roof . . . no.
AsterSelene
2010-04-30, 02:23
Oh no that spoils me man!! hehehe just joking....!:heh::heh::heh:
anyways thanks!!!
I think its obvious that the man is the one who injected Yuki Nagato with the pistol...... I wonder who it was.... hmmmmm......
It looks like I have to rewatch this in high definition since I only have watched it in camrip.... hey thanks again!!
My goodness. Alone, what he was wearing, his voice, and whom he was traveling with makes it obvious - especially Kyon's dialogue afterwards - make it obvious. If you really can't get it - you've met this male before, and it's not Koizumi.
Anyway...
Watched the movie; it was blissfully beautiful and a work of art. Can't wait for DVD version, but Mazui's should be fine for now.
When Sugita Tomokazu said "Are you tired of my voice yet?"...well, now I know what he meant.
But still, the scenes were beautiful and the few liberalities KyoAni took were so well done I can't argue with them.
So, how many people want to bet the number of YukiKyon shippers dramatically increased with this movie?
quigonkenny
2010-04-30, 03:02
I have watched it and it was great!
I still didnt understand something.... well here you go...
1.who the hell saved kyon???
2.How did kyon get back to the real world???
3.In the ending, when Kyon was in the hospital..,Did Nagato vanished in the real word????reminders : Please dont tell spoilers from the novels.... just tell me what you know......
1. Rewatch the scene. You'll be able to figure out all three "saviors" from their voices, if nothing else. Well, two of them, since the third, who you can pretty much see completely anyway, didn't talk (which in itself could be a hint). Outright telling you would be a spoiler, as it, as well as the "how", is clearly laid out in a later volume (7).
2. They actually leave that one pretty vague throughout the series. Kyon makes some speculation of this after he wakes up in the hospital, and you learn a little more in Volume 7, but you should be able to speculate based on how it got "messed up" in the first place...
3. Nope. In fact, their conversation on the roof conveys quite the opposite. Watch it again and read the subs carefully.
yakumo-chan
2010-04-30, 05:25
3. Nope. In fact, their conversation on the roof conveys quite the opposite. Watch it again and read the subs carefully.
Well thanks.... I think I really should rewatch this(In HD).... I do know they had a conversation in the rooftop... but I just really thought that Nagato has left the world and she only revisited kyon in the rooftop..... because I really remember something in the hospital haruhi saying that the members are complete here, while Nagato is nowhere to be seen in that room..... Koizumi and haruhi didnt even said her name
quigonkenny
2010-04-30, 05:36
Well thanks.... I think I really should rewatch this(In HD).... I do know they had a conversation in the rooftop... but I just really thought that Nagato has left the world and she only revisited kyon in the rooftop..... because I really remember something in the hospital haruhi saying that the members are complete here, while Nagato is nowhere to be seen in that room..... Koizumi and haruhi didnt even said her name
Ah, maybe that was a bad translation. Kyon makes a point of mentioning Nagato as the final member of the SOS Dan to show up, at least in the novel. But their convo happens in his hospital room in the novel, not on the roof, so they may have changed that line.
But their convo happens in his hospital room in the novel, not on the roof,
probably because the yuki(snow) scene wouldn't be as effective if they weren't outside. that wasn't in the novel, right?
probably because the yuki(snow) scene wouldn't be as effective if they weren't outside. that wasn't in the novel, right?
Yes. That, and it gave them the chance to do more scenery porn, tease the KyonxYuki shippers, and nail the "sad girl in snow" anime 'trope.'
Yes. That, and it gave them the chance to do more scenery porn, tease the KyonxYuki shippers, and nail the "sad girl in snow" anime 'trope.'
I'll forgive them... because that scene was so damn good... I mean come on... a makeshift wedding veil complete with Kyon kneeling... TOO... DAMN... GOOD!
yakumo-chan
2010-05-06, 07:44
hey.... since nagato can do what haruhi can do.... isnt nagato's mission supposed to be finished??? (dont tell spoilers from novel please)
quigonkenny
2010-05-06, 08:22
hey.... since nagato can do what haruhi can do.... isnt nagato's mission supposed to be finished??? (dont tell spoilers from novel please)
Short answer: No.
Long answer: How do you expect that to be answered without spoilers? ^_^
yakumo-chan
2010-05-06, 08:45
Short answer: No.
Long answer: How do you expect that to be answered without spoilers? ^_^
hahaha! thanks... i just wanted to know if the answer is in the novel or not..... just to clear my mind...... ok..... it seems that I'll just have to wait for it......
hey.... since nagato can do what haruhi can do.... isnt nagato's mission supposed to be finished??? (dont tell spoilers from novel please)
As quingon said, more explanation is not possible, and it would be mostly speculation, anyway. You should remember what Yuki's goal are, tough. It is not like it is automatically archived by mimicking Haruhi's powers.
kniteowl
2010-05-08, 00:48
Ah, maybe that was a bad translation. Kyon makes a point of mentioning Nagato as the final member of the SOS Dan to show up, at least in the novel. But their convo happens in his hospital room in the novel, not on the roof, so they may have changed that line.
I always thought Koizumi was the last SOS member to show up, since he was the mysterious transfer student, unless mmy memory is incorrect.
Thinking back on the movie, it really is such a tragic turn of events for Yuki. Her only chance at a normal life pretty much just got shat on... =(
I always thought Koizumi was the last SOS member to show up, since he was the mysterious transfer student, unless mmy memory is incorrect.
I think what he meant was that Nagato was the last one to visit Kyon after he woke up from his "coma."
kniteowl
2010-05-08, 04:30
I think what he meant was that Nagato was the last one to visit Kyon after he woke up from his "coma."
oooooooooooooooooh...
that makes a lot more sense...
quigonkenny
2010-05-08, 05:32
oooooooooooooooooh...
that makes a lot more sense...
Well this is the movie thread... ^_^
ultimatemegax
2010-05-22, 01:35
Just got back from the North America premiere!
I really enjoyed seeing the film. Personally, I feel that this was made to be shown in theatres (despite the fact that it was made as a movie....to be shown in theatres). Rather I'm interested to see how it would translate to a home release since there's a lot of grittiness in the backgrounds that come off incredibly well on the theatre, but may not in the home release.
Overall, I'd say that if you could make it to San Francisco and see it while it's showing, do so. I'll be seeing it again tomorrow, so I'll have a little more of an objective look to it (with the premiere and first viewing, I tend to "fangasm" instead of looking more critically at points). Great showing by Bandai Entertainment and the ASOS Brigade!
Just got back from the North America premiere!
I really enjoyed seeing the film. Personally, I feel that this was made to be shown in theatres (despite the fact that it was made as a movie....to be shown in theatres). Rather I'm interested to see how it would translate to a home release since there's a lot of grittiness in the backgrounds that come off incredibly well on the theatre, but may not in the home release.
Overall, I'd say that if you could make it to San Francisco and see it while it's showing, do so. I'll be seeing it again tomorrow, so I'll have a little more of an objective look to it (with the premiere and first viewing, I tend to "fangasm" instead of looking more critically at points). Great showing by Bandai Entertainment and the ASOS Brigade!
I didn't see you anywhere ultimatemegax, where were you sitting? (I was in the back, slightly off center.)
quigonkenny
2010-05-22, 07:16
Maybe everyone should figure out what showings everyone else is going to and those going to the same showings can set up a meeting place/time an hour or two beforehand.
ultimatemegax
2010-05-22, 09:54
Maybe everyone should figure out what showings everyone else is going to and those going to the same showings can set up a meeting place/time an hour or two beforehand.
Good idea. If there is anyone who would like to meet me before the 3:50 showing today, I'll be in the downstairs lobby starting at 2:30 with a green shirt and blue stripes.
I actually went to the 3:50 showing today, but I didn't note anyone's shirt color (hadn't read the above post until just now). I had already seen the camcorder rip so it wasn't new to me, but seeing it in a theater is of course a different experience. Not unexpectedly, someone in the audience was kind of annoying (randomly translating unimportant Japanese text out loud, explaining various things out loud, etc), but I'd be surprised if there weren't someone like that for a movie like this.
...I hope that wasn't you.
quigonkenny
2010-05-22, 23:10
I actually went to the 3:50 showing today, but I didn't note anyone's shirt color (hadn't read the above post until just now). I had already seen the camcorder rip so it wasn't new to me, but seeing it in a theater is of course a different experience. Not unexpectedly, someone in the audience was kind of annoying (randomly translating unimportant Japanese text out loud, explaining various things out loud, etc), but I'd be surprised if there weren't someone like that for a movie like this.
...I hope that wasn't you.
Did he sound like Itsuki? ^_^
ultimatemegax
2010-05-23, 17:31
I actually went to the 3:50 showing today, but I didn't note anyone's shirt color (hadn't read the above post until just now). I had already seen the camcorder rip so it wasn't new to me, but seeing it in a theater is of course a different experience. Not unexpectedly, someone in the audience was kind of annoying (randomly translating unimportant Japanese text out loud, explaining various things out loud, etc), but I'd be surprised if there weren't someone like that for a movie like this.
...I hope that wasn't you.
No, I was very quiet during the movie, especially compared with the crowd. During the previews which I had to rag on for seeing them multiple times the night before, that would be a different story, but not during the movie. My seating partner lived in Japan for three years, it'd be the reverse situation (she'd have to do that for me).
Archon_Wing
2010-05-24, 01:42
Alright I came back. I was mostly expecting a good movie but got a very good one. I'll get my thoughts together in a bit but overall it was a great watch with some truly exceptional scenes. I really enjoyed the scenes that mirrored the first season. And surprisingly, the Kyon/Yuki scenes at the end were pretty moving. I'll probably post more later.
Ugh.. Given the DVD will probably come out in a few months.. I think I should catch an SF showing.. Curses!
Archon_Wing
2010-05-27, 14:49
So when I was watching the movie, I was like "holy fuck, this movie is LOOONG". I can't really say it dragged, though there's a number of scenes in the first half that I feel didn't have to take that long. Move on! Move on!
I was glad to see the return of Bouken Desho Desho?; the credits just seemed to herald the return of the Haruhi franchise. Tanagachi, that lovable fool, was amusing, but the thing that I remember most about the first part is the Mikuru santa costume. :heh: But for the most part, it doesn't get interesting til the disappearance.
Props must go to Tomokazu Sugita; his freak outs to the new world were pretty damned convincing. He gave off a rather desperate tone that shows another side. Also, the ZOMG Ryoko moment was a memorable one. I wasn't too excited over moe moe Yuki, though certain camera angles.... never mind. :p My first speculation is that Yuki's observations suggest that Kyon likes girls like Mikuru and so... But this Yuki doesn't know anything.
While the next parts seemed to take a while, I liked Kyon grasping at every straw of hope. Damn, he actually does care about Haruhi. Alternate Haruhi is looking good, and that headbutt just made me laugh. Itsuki is still Haruhi's lackey, leading one of my friends to comment "well, even in this world, you're her bitch" :heh: Or something has a sense of humor.
It's pretty amazing how fast Haruhi was willing to believe just because Kyon said he was John Smith... one wonders what would have happened if he did that to the normal Haruhi? Well this Haruhi is quick to get matters started; even down to the point of kidnapping Mikuru. The recreation of scenes from 2006 just make me wonder what would happen if they just went on from here on in this world. Amusing, to say the least.
But Kyon decides that he must head back; and Adult Mikuru appearance is always welcomed. What's with all the shots of people's feet? The trippy introspection scene was fun as well. Anyhow, they go back and find out the culprit is Yuki! Kyon is obviously distraught at doing away with moe moe Yuki, but then OH CRAP WTF? Ryoko comes out of nowhere and stabs Kyon. So Ryoko in this universe is Yuki's Lesbian stalker/lover?
I thought Ryoko's "LOL IM SO EVIL" scene started out pretty scary, but then it got rather over the top and I wasn't sure whether to laugh or be scared. Anyhow, Kyon is apparently saved by wait what-- themselves from the future? Well, that needs explaining later on!
The last part was excellent. If the "disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya" made us forget about Haruhi, the scene with Haruhi in a sleeping bag is heartwarming, funny, and doesn't make me want to slap the crap out of her. So she does care... So the movie reveals that they do really care for each other a lot .
The rooftop scene was awesome, as it leads to Kyon threatening the powerful data entity, and having them back down! Threatening to punch a god, and blackmailing an almost omnipotent agency; Kyon's definitely on a roll.
The story does give us a lot of insight into Yuki. As Kyon said, the error explaination is BS-- Yuki risked herself to create a world where Kyon would be happy with her. But in any case, being the one to save the day; it's only fair that she should have saved once too.
9/10; I would say this the first time the franchise really impacted me enough to care for the characters. Also, the movie made excellent use of the cast, and everyone played a role-- nobody was left out so a very good work indeed. It goes without saying that it looks good, so that helps too.
I was not disappointed. Even waiting almost three years it is worth it.
Saw the 12:40pm showing today in San Francisco. There were a little more than 20 people there. Two walked out, but one had complained before the film started about it being more than 2 hours and 40 minutes long, so I think they just had something else to do since they made it to December 19th before they took off.
And 2ch is right in some ways. Americans do laugh at interesting times during the film. Some spots I wouldn't have expected myself (since the scenes were serious, but Kyon's action or reactions could be seen as funny in some lights). Most seem to laugh any time Kyon tried to talk to someone as if things were "normal", but clearly they either don't know him, or have no idea what he was ranting about. Of course they also laughed about any of Kyon's true snarky lines as well.
I think most laughed just about any time Mikuru was overwhelmed.
Also at just about any scene with Kyon's Sister.
It will be in the theater for just less than a week, so if you are in the area and haven;t seen it, I can recommend that you do. ($10 US for a ticket...$8-10 US for parking if you don't take mass transit).
Who knows where it will be shown next...or when it will be out on DVD/Blu-Ray with English subs (or even dubbed for that matter).
Now back to waiting on KyoAni to continue this series.
Archon_Wing
2010-05-31, 19:22
Kyon's lines are gold; it's only natural the audience cannot withstand his snark. :heh:
Seitsuki
2010-06-01, 06:01
for us living in the corners of the world, here's hoping for a quick DVD release. the trailer just doesn't cut it and I'll stick forks in my eyes before subjecting them to the cam versions on the net atm.
ijuinkun
2010-06-05, 00:36
I thought Ryoko's "LOL IM SO EVIL" scene started out pretty scary, but then it got rather over the top and I wasn't sure whether to laugh or be scared.
I like how Ryoko's pirouette, with blood splattering onto a Yuki who is absolutely horrified, while Ryoko ignores Yuki's reaction and cheerfully babbles about what a GOOD thing she's done to HELP Yuki, just puts an exclamation mark on how insane Ryoko is. Given that Data Entities aren't supposed to understand emotions, one would expect Ryoko to be cold and emotionless as she tries to kill Kyon, but the cheerfulness seems to scream that Ryoko clearly has no concept that anybody else could have a worldview different from her own.
Vallen Chaos Valiant
2010-06-05, 03:06
I like how Ryoko's pirouette, with blood splattering onto a Yuki who is absolutely horrified, while Ryoko ignores Yuki's reaction and cheerfully babbles about what a GOOD thing she's done to HELP Yuki, just puts an exclamation mark on how insane Ryoko is. Given that Data Entities aren't supposed to understand emotions, one would expect Ryoko to be cold and emotionless as she tries to kill Kyon, but the cheerfulness seems to scream that Ryoko clearly has no concept that anybody else could have a worldview different from her own.
That depends on if you think any emotional she displays were ever real.
Personally I believe she had no internal emotions at all, and that what you see on the outside were all artificial programming she used to disguise herself with humans. Thus, she is ALWAYS happy on the outside, that's the only emotion she displays.
BlackKnightKanos
2010-06-05, 15:05
Do they already have an English dub for this?
Dub, not yet. Sub yes, in the theater already (today is the last day in San Francisco). I would imagine they would make a dub of the 2009 season first (or at the same time).
ijuinkun
2010-06-05, 22:56
That depends on if you think any emotional she displays were ever real.
Personally I believe she had no internal emotions at all, and that what you see on the outside were all artificial programming she used to disguise herself with humans. Thus, she is ALWAYS happy on the outside, that's the only emotion she displays.
That is why I said that it seems like she does not really comprehend what she is doing. It's very much like the scene in episode 2, but cranked up to eleven.
Vallen Chaos Valiant
2010-06-05, 23:29
That is why I said that it seems like she does not really comprehend what she is doing. It's very much like the scene in episode 2, but cranked up to eleven.
I believe she comprehends perfectly. She treats "happiness" like clothing. It's something you wear on the outside. It's not that she can't have emotions, she just don't bother.
ijuinkun
2010-06-07, 03:51
What she's failing to comprehend here is the basis for/relevance of the emotions of others. For example, in Episode 2, she seemed honestly baffled that Kyon even cared about self-preservation--he had told her that she should go ahead with what she had been indecisive about, and she interpreted it to mean that he approved of her decision to kill him in order to fulfill the goals of the IDTE. Then again, apparently Data Entities can be saved and restored like files, so there's a high probability that she did not grasp the full implications of the concept that humans view death as irrevocable.
The thing that is scary and "insane" about Asakura is that her reaction not only does not fit what we would expect from a human, it does not fit what we would expect from a "computer" either (and we have been led to believe that computer minds are a closer analogue to Data entities than human minds). Asakura is not angry or apologetic or even sadistic like a human would be, and she is not calm and cold as we would expect a "computer" to be.
<--- Still hasn't seen it.
Ugh.. I need DVD or Blu Ray nao.
Myssa Rei
2010-06-13, 05:58
I'm seriously curious about the movie, but since all we have is a camrip, I'm passing. It's going to be an agonizing wait for the DVD/BR.
I'm seriously curious about the movie, but since all we have is a camrip, I'm passing. It's going to be an agonizing wait for the DVD/BR.
Yea, as hard as it was I passed on the camrips. I think it is still sitting in my HD somewhere <.<
The quality of th camrip isn't all that good, but oddly the quality of the movie makes the camrip more than watchable. You forget it is a camrip after the halfway point.
However in the theater....wow. Some of the little details can't be seen well in the camrip...but on a big clear sceen? Wow (will it is Kyoto Animation...their reputation for quality television productions is nothing next to their full movie production).
Myssa Rei
2010-06-14, 00:38
All the more reason to wait for the DVD/BR.
Archon_Wing
2010-06-14, 00:41
What she's failing to comprehend here is the basis for/relevance of the emotions of others. For example, in Episode 2, she seemed honestly baffled that Kyon even cared about self-preservation--he had told her that she should go ahead with what she had been indecisive about, and she interpreted it to mean that he approved of her decision to kill him in order to fulfill the goals of the IDTE. Then again, apparently Data Entities can be saved and restored like files, so there's a high probability that she did not grasp the full implications of the concept that humans view death as irrevocable.
The thing that is scary and "insane" about Asakura is that her reaction not only does not fit what we would expect from a human, it does not fit what we would expect from a "computer" either (and we have been led to believe that computer minds are a closer analogue to Data entities than human minds). Asakura is not angry or apologetic or even sadistic like a human would be, and she is not calm and cold as we would expect a "computer" to be.
I think she's basically programmed to be pleasant and happy. It's just that when she takes out the knife it turns out to be horrifically inapproachable, but it's not like she cares. :heh:
^ That's what makes her so charming. AA Plus! :heh:
When will the BD/DVD version come out in the states?
Mckendrick
2010-06-16, 14:27
When will the BD/DVD version come out in the states?
I think i recall hearing Bandai was going to do the dub for the US release. But that doesn't give us a time frame for the release though.
I think it was a great one, Never expected her to be like that..Heh.:twitch:
AnnaDavis
2010-06-16, 15:49
810
Not perfect but still a great movie
http://vdexproject.net/p/1265/partymini.png (http://vdexproject.net/user.php?user=1265)
bombyethan1000
2010-06-17, 15:07
wow
when kyon was lying on the ground bleeding to death, and there were two mikurus staring down at him and trying to save him, my heart was like hngggg
wistfulloner
2010-06-17, 16:23
9.5/10, but rounded off to perfect score. Good things are really worth waiting for, it seems!
I just finished off the camrip; it really wasn't that bad save for some unfocused parts, but they were overshadowed by the dazzling atmosphere Kyoani has created since the first Haruhi episode. Everything feels right in place, from the usual craziness when an SOS meeting is underway straight to Kyon's horror realizing he's trapped in another world. Animation is top notch too, as can be expected from Kyoani.
All those who are holding out for the DVD, give in I say, you will love me for it.
Its hella long, almost 3 hours, but I enjoyed every millisecond of it, laughter, suspense and all. I had a very rough idea of how the story would go, but there were so many plot twists I was more than pleasantly surprised, especially when:
Kyon got stabbed, and he saves himself. No joke, Tanigawa is a genius.
While I was watching it, Disappearance always felt like the Japanese answer to Hollywood "lets blow shit up" films to me. There were many arching themes to ponder over in the film, while it built a time traveling tale complex enough to leave you confused for a while. It's definitely one of the more meaningful films I've watched in a while.
Hi old forum i used to frequent
this shit was awesome
I'm not a huge Haruhi fan so I was able to hold off the temptation of watching the camrip, but I was really bored today so I figured what the hell, why not.
...and it was a good choice indeed. 162 minutes well spent. Some posters have mentioned that it's dragged and I agree to some extent, but I went into this movie without having read the novel yet so I spent the time during those "useless" scenes pondering what was going to happen next. Can't comment much on the animation quality, but for a camrip it looked pretty damn amazing, makes me wish that I could see it on the big screen.
Gotta love the development of Kyon and Haruhi's relationship here, and it's also nice to see Yuki showing some emotions. Kyon is awesome as always; his internal monologues is one of the reasons why I liked the Haruhi series and I'm glad that part of him hasn't died down one bit. That scene with him trying to decide which world he prefers was superbly done.
Overall, 9/10 - definitely buying the DVD when it's out. Now I just have to decide whether I like the KyonHaruhi pairing or the KyonYuki pairing more...
Roger Rambo
2010-06-25, 22:59
Just sat down and watched the movie (GOD that was long). I liked it overall. Some of the long internal monologues of Kyon were handled very interestingly (particularly him talking to himself about Haruhi and berating his other self).
baltakatei
2010-06-28, 22:32
There had been a lot of buzz about the series before any of the media hit the States. Cosplayers were showing up at conventions and "Hare Hare Yukai," the first season's closing theme, and its accompanying dance sequence went viral, with fans from across the globe uploading their own performances on YouTube. When you see this kind of fan-based, organic hype, there's a good reason for it. Haruhi Suzumiya is smart and incredibly funny. It is perhaps one of the best written animes to have emerged in the latter half of the '00s.
The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya isn't your conventional television series. In fact, it doesn't actually air on TV in the U.S.
Link to LA Weekly article. (http://blogs.laweekly.com/stylecouncil/animation/disappearance-of-haruhi-suzumi/)
Game8910
2010-06-28, 23:01
he called Haruhi a magical girl.....
Well....being god of a universe could be considered magical.
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