[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 7 Requiem of the golden witch [Archive] - Page 12

maximilianjenus

2011-01-17, 16:54

I guess what I meant is that possibly she was completely uninformed. We saw everything she saw of the family conference. Unless someone, somehow told her about all that stuff during the second day, I don't see why she'd know about the bomb or gold or anything. The only people that probably would tell her are Eva and Hideyoshi, as they seem to be in on something, but they die very quickly and don't seem likely to tell Natsuhi anything anyways,

When I said culprit, I meant more knowing what's going on, the more specific reasons people are dying etc. As Rosa and Eva seem to know in the later arcs.

You are right, since she might have gotten such a hard headache that she was not even in the gold room, so we can take that out.

About rokkenjima prime, imho; it works in a similar way to the higurashi kakeras, so there is no only real world, just a series of different worlds with slightly different events.

in the first world kyrie dies right away along with rudolf, so most of the murders are done by yasu, the second world is very similar except that rosa kinda tries to escape from the mansion once she finds out yasu is still alive and thus the bomb might still be armed; in the third world the servants are killed, and then kyrie and rudolf try to kill the rest of the adults one by one. in the 4th world kyrie's plan works even better as she survives until she runs out of bullets, this is the closer scenario to ep07. ep05 ad ep 06 are very unlikely scenarios considering they have erika (kind of like no explosion himatusushi, which only happens once).

this works well with having kyrie and yasu both being murderers with converging objectives.

AuraTwilight

2011-01-18, 00:49

About rokkenjima prime, imho; it works in a similar way to the higurashi kakeras, so there is no only real world, just a series of different worlds with slightly different events.

This doesn't really work, though, since there's "One Truth", and all the other episodes are written stories in Ange's world. Unless someone is psychic and can see alternate universes...well...crap, huh?

Keriaku

2011-01-18, 08:23

This doesn't really work, though, since there's "One Truth", and all the other episodes are written stories in Ange's world. Unless someone is psychic and can see alternate universes...well...crap, huh?

This is actually exactly what we are presented with Hachijo-Feathertine. This is why I believe the meta world to be a higher dimension to the real world, that Beatrice has been stuck in for 1000 years and Battler, ANGE and MARIA have all been limitingly pulled into.

maximilianjenus

2011-01-18, 10:04

the one truth thing refers to something different, not to the world being a simple linear series of events.

Jan-Poo

2011-01-18, 11:01

I think the main problem here is: who the hell cares about finding "the truth" when any kind of truth can exist in some kind of kakera?

I guess you could say that if you try hard enough you can find a kakera where the killer is Nanjo, a kakera where the killer is Rudolf, a kakera where the killer is Battler and so on until you cover all the possibilities.

So then what's the point in finding the whodunit, howdunit and whydunit?
The best you could get is that you'd find the truth of one among infinite kakera. But then you could just shot in the dark, you'd still be bound to hit one of the infinite kakera no matter what you say.

Maybe you could say that the kakera we've seen have a killer in common. Well okay, let's even admit that, but what exactly makes those kakera so special? Why should I think they are more important than the rest?

Witch of Uncertainty

2011-01-18, 11:24

^Doesn't every kakera have the same killer/killers?
And if not, I don't really see a problem myself. The truth Battler is after is who killed their family. (Being Yasu, plus a possible accomplice X)
The truth ange is after, is who killed her family in her kakera. The true culprit, who is always (except possibly ange\s kakera) behiind it, is Yasu. Thats the who dunnit in every kakera.

You could say that each kakera is its own mystery, with a different who, why and how dunnit. Battler is after the general murderer, while Ange is after the Ep 3 why, why and how dunnit.

Have you playe the Higurashi VNs btw?

Jan-Poo

2011-01-18, 11:54

Obviously Yasu isn't the culprit in all the kakera since "Yasu" doesn't even exist in Lion's world.

So what you get here is that there is not mastermind but just a bunch of people that might become murders by chance.

Witch of Uncertainty

2011-01-18, 12:06

I think that Yasu is the master mind each time.
I haven't played ep 8, but it was ever confirmed in red that the world where Yasu was killed was actually true? Isn't Will trying to make him survive this incident, meaning he will have to prove Bern wrong? -or am I completely misunderstanding his intentions?

Besides, in the Kakera, a completely different crime occours. Lion is likely the only victim.

Vampe

2011-01-18, 13:16

Jan-Poo

2011-01-18, 13:26

I haven't played ep 8, but it was ever confirmed in red that the world where Yasu was killed was actually true?

Was any game confirmed to be true rather than being just a fiction?

maximilianjenus

2011-01-18, 13:32

We are assuming all of them are true.

AuraTwilight

2011-01-18, 14:22

winter 923

2011-01-18, 14:28

The World Lion lives in is so impossible it's not even funny. Kinzo is already dead at the starting time for all games! We are told that Kinzo lives on sheer willpower till he finds Beatrice and dies only minutes after he apologies. That is 2 years before the last Family meeting, yet he is quite lively while having Lion on his side which he could apologies to and make the head to redeem himself.
There are many hints why in that World People would still die. Claire does say that even if Battler came back a year earlier or later that there would still be a tragedy but not on such a large scale. There is still the Kyrie thing and Rudolf always talking about getting killed. Krauss still takes care of the head and should have that barren gold.

The whole "No one cleared the empath, someone was made to clear it" still bugs me. Are there any Genji mastermind theories? There was something about only Kinzo and Genji knowing the answer and Genji helped Yasu, a being that sees herself as Furniture, to get the Gold. Not only that but Genji also tells Yasu to wear Beatrice's dress, can't the sudden death of Kinzo be a planned heart stroke? I can't imagine anyone who clears the riddle has to wear a dress to be recogniced.

We also don't know why Genji und Kumasawa are trusted, like Nanjo they need a good backstory to come in contact with Beatrice. Genji wasn't a Buttler in the first place.

Why was Battler coming back that year anyway. I always thought Rudolf got paid to do it because he prostrates himself to Battler with not much time left to the family meeting. But it looks like Yasu has no role in this. He knows that he will be killed so he asks Battler to "register back to the Ushiromiya Family" so that he still inherits? I don't think it works this way but what do i know about the japanese 80s

Jan-Poo

2011-01-18, 14:30

The World Lion lives in is so impossible it's not even funny.

So it is for EP5 and EP6.

And BTW it was also said that Kinzo's health was worsened by his abuse of alcohol. Alcohol is scientifically demonstrated to be related to lower life expectancy. I argue that in a world where Kinzo doesn't drink as much as in the others not only it is possible that he lived longer but it is to be expected.

Keriaku

2011-01-18, 14:36

No WE'RE not, YOU are. And the canon doesn't seem to support your hypothesis. The Meta-World existing is one thing; it's events don't really interfere with reality's in any way. But Keriaku's hypothesis doesn't work because it requires acknowledging that there are witches in the real world who can influence reality with objectively real magic.

Which defeats the entire purpose of the entire intellectual exercise of Umineko.

Well it's only 'fantasy' insofar as you're willing to believe that there are people, such as Rika, who have knowledge of other Fragments. And what I suggested does nothing to affect the events on the island. Even Battler only tries to deny witches within those two days. What I suggested, with Hachijo recording what she views over the Fragments, only affects the larger view or 'mystery' of Umineko, which certainly should take the meta-world into account.

^Doesn't every kakera have the same killer/killers?
And if not, I don't really see a problem myself. The truth Battler is after is who killed their family. (Being Yasu, plus a possible accomplice X)
The truth ange is after, is who killed her family in her kakera. The true culprit, who is always (except possibly ange\s kakera) behiind it, is Yasu. Thats the who dunnit in every kakera.

You could say that each kakera is its own mystery, with a different who, why and how dunnit. Battler is after the general murderer, while Ange is after the Ep 3 why, why and how dunnit.

Have you playe the Higurashi VNs btw?

Well I don't know about when we open up the cat box furthur to allow Lion to exist, but I'm pretty sure the whole reason Beatrice/Clair was in a dead-end situation is because of the limited possibilities avaliable to him/her within those 2 days. So while there are infinite Fragments, these fragments are limited by the possibilities of those two days, so I don't think we can necessarily say that anyone could have done it, but it's true that the possible number of killers is a large fraction of the people on the island.

----

On a related note, I've been trying to figure out Beatrice's dead-end situation, and how it works when it seems to have been created by her own certain will that brings about the tragedy. Coming from a Higurashi, repeating Fragment, perspective, here's an idea I had:

We know that Yasu, the person behind the beings of Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice, is the one who resolves him/herself to commit this tragedy. We can also reasonably assume that the love duel between Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice has a very big part in Yasu's resolve to go through with this, being somehow connected to her furniture complex he/she realizes between 1984-1986. I'm going to say this was the motive, but I'm trying to figure out Beatrice's dead-end situation rather than focus on why the crime happened. I’ll say this love duel is what creates Yasu’s certain will.

Now let's look at the very first Fragment, the first time the incident happened in time and space, before there were any observers or a catbox. The situation as I see it would be exactly as Clair describes in her play, with Yasu having become Beatrice, and Shannon eventually giving her feelings for Battler to Beatrice, and something traumatic happening to him/her between 1984-1986. Here is where I imagine it diverges. What if on the first time, Battler doesn’t come to the island. Based on Lion’s fragment, unless Battler’s return has something to do with Shannon, which seems very unlikely, this is a possibility for Beatrice’s world as well. I imagine Yasu would have prepared for Battler’s return, and thus she’d also be ready to use the gold and work with the adults. We know that some sort of ‘small’ incident would have occurred, so let’s imagine that in this first Fragment, the love duel only happens between Kanon and Shannon. Beatrice is left lonely on the sidelines, without even a chance. As we all know, no matter the size of the incident Yasu creates, it always ends in the same way, with an explosion and we can imagine the parents have a hand in this in any of the ‘small incident’ worlds.

Now let’s imagine the Fragments repeat a couple more times. We can see in Higurashi that the Fragments happen even without an observer, as when Rika only realizes the multiple worlds in hindsight, as Frederica forms out of the many memories. Let’s even imagine that Battler never comes back in the first number of Fragments. I realize that we’re never explicitly told the probability of Battler returning, so it could even be an unlikely event. Now let’s examine Beatrice. From Yasu’s play, we’re shown that she’s already on some closed off higher plane, ‘stuck in Yasu’s head’, if you will. I imagine after two or three, or more likely, many thousands of these depressing repeating Fragments where Battler never returns and Shannon and Kanon’s love duel never bears fruit with everyone ending up dead, would cause this pre-Beatrice to become more and more isolated and disassociated with the beings of Shannon and Kanon as they continually get a chance and love and she alone is left without any salvation. It is through this situation that I would see Beatrice ‘transcending’ out of Yasu’s imagined higher plane, as she realizes that the Fragments are there.

(I’ll just stop here for a note: I really like this idea because something that always bothered me about Yasu’s play was how Clair-Beatrice did seem to be on a higher plane, but it seemed closed off, and they never showed how that connected to the meta-Beatrice, or even how that led to there being a meta-Clair who could act out a play of her own life)

It would be from this realization, and the fact that it was her own ‘physical self’ with the certain will that manifests this situation, that makes up Beatrice’s ‘endless’ nature. After realizing the Fragments existed, it seems only natural to me that Beatrice would seek out the Fragments where Battler does return. But, though Beatrice can now affect which Fragments she views or participates in, she can no longer affect the physical Yasu who has the certain will to create this situation. This is what gives Beatrice the endless ability, while herself being trapped in a dead-end of October 4th and 5th, 1986. This eventually leads to Battler manifesting out of Beatrice selectively participating in only fragments where he returns. And as we see throughout the series, this also ends up being Beatrice, and by extension Yasu’s, only salvation out of the dead-end fate.

I’m satisfied with how this theory explains Beatrice’s situation, including her ill will towards Kanon and Shannon’s efforts. It even easily accounts for their semi-self-awareness. It makes sense that after x many repeating Fragments, Shannon and Kanon would become aware that they are there again, but they are nowhere near the level that Meta-Beatrice is, and don’t know anything about the Sea of Fragments.

I feel like this theory could even account for the ‘gameboard’ analogy. After thousands of years of residing alone in this closed catbox, I see no reason why Beatrice wouldn’t ‘have fun’ by overlaying her own interpretive filters (read: magic) on the same ‘boring’ situation she views over and over again. Similar to how Bernkastel started to get bored with her life, to the point of her mind almost breaking, this is how I could see Beatrice keeping her mind from breaking. We even know from various dialogues that the red/blue truth is something exclusive to Beatrice’s ‘gameboard’, not a feature of the Fragments at large. After long enough, Beatrice probably perfected her meta-mystery ‘game’, as something that would perfectly fit her and Battler’s mystery tastes. This is why Beatrice would begin to view, understand ad live her situation as a gameboard she creates, while in reality she is picking out a Fragment and overlaying her own filter on top of it, while ‘playing’ by restricting herself with the Red and clashing with the Blue.

What do you guys think? Any thoughts, comments, further speculation? I’m happy I’ve cleared all of this up in my head now :)

Witch of Uncertainty

2011-01-18, 14:51

Was any game confirmed to be true rather than being just a fiction?

Hmmm, I suppose. However, Erika was confirmed in Red to have never existed in any other Kakera, and is confirmed to be the 18th person on Rokkenjima, yet 17th physical body, if I remember correctly (ep 6 ending)
No WE'RE not, YOU are. And the canon doesn't seem to support your hypothesis. The Meta-World existing is one thing; it's events don't really interfere with reality's in any way. But Keriaku's hypothesis doesn't work because it requires acknowledging that there are witches in the real world who can influence reality with objectively real magic.

Which defeats the entire purpose of the entire intellectual exercise of Umineko.

Like I said above, didn't Bern say all these things in red, regarding Erika? Doesn't that mean that witches can interfere?
I'll admit I'm a bit unsure. Been a while since ep 5.

Jan-Poo

2011-01-18, 15:36

Hmmm, I suppose. However, Erika was confirmed in Red to have never existed in any other Kakera, and is confirmed to be the 18th person on Rokkenjima, yet 17th physical body, if I remember correctly (ep 6 ending)

What if reds only confirm the "truth" of their respective stories? That's what the Author Theory claims after all. And "in the world of humans red truths do not exist"; doesn't that mean that they cannot exist in the real world?

As for the EP6 ending no one knows for sure how you're supposed to interpret that. There are many ways to see it and none was confirmed.

Judoh

2011-01-18, 15:43

Guys reread The Tea Party in Episode 5 where Battler talks about the message bottles, and the discussions between Ange and Hachijou/Featherine in episode 6 about them. The fact the the individual game boards are fictions written by many different human authors, whom we don't know the identities of, is pretty much settled by this point. It's not really something to debate it's one of the core truths we were given. The only thing debatable is your interpretation.

maximilianjenus

2011-01-18, 16:47

That was not said in red, those are fictions related to the actual kakeras in which they are found; episode 7 should explain clearly what was the purpose of those messages/histories.

a) yasu plans the murders ahead of time, writes the messages.
b) yasu is informed of battler coming to the island a few days ahead, like any high level servant should know, so she slightly rewrites the planned murders.
c) yasu tries to carry out the murders as planned, due to erika/kyrie's interventions she has varying degress of fail, which is what gives us different kakeras.

way long before ep05 (know rules had been denied for umineko at that time), it was theorized that since umineko is a game of battler vs the witch teh witch can freely lie to batler as long as he was not present on specific scenes, thus that was what permitted fantasy to exist in rokkenjima.

No WE'RE not, YOU are. And the canon doesn't seem to support your hypothesis. The Meta-World existing is one thing; it's events don't really interfere with reality's in any way. But Keriaku's hypothesis doesn't work because it requires acknowledging that there are witches in the real world who can influence reality with objectively real magic.

Which defeats the entire purpose of the entire intellectual exercise of Umineko.

not for me, and when I said we I mean all the people who aproach the game in that same way.

Judoh

2011-01-18, 17:02

That was not said in red, those are fictions related to the actual kakeras in which they are found; episode 7 should explain clearly what was the purpose of those messages/histories.

You're still only trusting words said in red? Episode 7 had almost none. And episode 6 mostly had reds saying "I acknowledge it". It's continuously being pointed out for you in the game that the red is not as important as it was made out to be. If you're only reading for red text you're not reading at all.

a) yasu plans the murders ahead of time, writes the messages.

She wrote two of them. Legend and Turn. The rest were written by forgers. Different authors.

Witch of Uncertainty

2011-01-18, 17:04

She wrote two of them. Legend and Turn. The rest were written by forgers. Different authors.

Wait, so the world where Eva returns to ange and they make hell for each other doesn't exist? Then why is Ange continuously revived, even when not not interacting with Battler, and remembers Eva..

What is the whole deal about Ange and Eva then? The Forgeries never wrote nything beyond the incident. Beato also had no control over Ange as a piece, since Bernkastel brought her, and is clearly not trying to indirectly help her.

Jan-Poo

2011-01-18, 17:14

Wait, so the world where Eva returns to ange and they make hell for each other doesn't exist? Then why is Ange continuously revived, even when not not interacting with Battler, and remembers Eva..

What is the whole deal about Ange and Eva then?

EP3 is not being acknowledged as "the real world". EP3 is as fake as the rest, and more precisely it's a story that was created by Hachijo in order to give a version of the events of Rokkenjima that would actually fit with what was known in the real world.

In the real world Eva survived, but in none of the two messages it was said that Eva survived. So the first forgery showed a story where Eva does. However that doesn't make it true, it simply makes it less implausible.

At the very least you must admit that this is what Ange in 1998 concluded.

Judoh

2011-01-18, 17:15

Wait, so the world where Eva returns to ange and they make hell for each other doesn't exist?

Someone wrote Banquet to compensate for the fact she did survive, and at first they took that as the real story of what happened. If the first two were written before it happened there's no way Yasu would know that Eva would survive.

maximilianjenus

2011-01-18, 17:19

You're still only trusting words said in red? Episode 7 had almost none. And episode 6 mostly had reds saying "I acknowledge it". It's continuously being pointed out for you in the game that the red is not as important as it was made out to be. If you're only reading for red text you're not reading at all.

She wrote two of them. Legend and Turn. The rest were written by forgers. Different authors.

1st, no, did you read my whole post or is my english not good enough ( seriosuly there, sas it is my second language)? it should have given a clear idea of that.

I said different murders, there are over a dozen fo murders, and yes, i accounted that yasu only wrote the first legend and turn, the other scenarios had too much involvement from kyrie/erika and she was not able to foresee them; you can say that before lambda/berun got involved those kakeras did not even exist.

Witch of Uncertainty

2011-01-18, 17:19

Aaahh, I think i'm getting on the same page as you guys. I'll admit that it does make sense, thinking about how Bern set up the last game (Kyrie etc), and said that this game "Had no game master". However, the first game being fake seems a bit weird, thinking about the fact that the "original", now meta-Battler participating in it. One thing is when the "piece" battler is participating, but this one was the original.

Ah, well.

Judoh

2011-01-18, 19:01

1st, no, did you read my whole post or is my english not good enough ( seriosuly there, sas it is my second language)? it should have given a clear idea of that.

I said different murders, there are over a dozen fo murders, and yes, i accounted that yasu only wrote the first legend and turn, the other scenarios had too much involvement from kyrie/erika and she was not able to foresee them; you can say that before lambda/berun got involved those kakeras did not even exist.

I did. I don't necessarily disagree with that part. I just don't look at it with a many worlds interpretation.

AuraTwilight

2011-01-18, 21:13

Claire does say that even if Battler came back a year earlier or later that there would still be a tragedy but not on such a large scale.

She says the crisis would've been averted if Battler came back a year earlier or later. You're paraphrasing incorrectly.

Well it's only 'fantasy' insofar as you're willing to believe that there are people, such as Rika, who have knowledge of other Fragments. And what I suggested does nothing to affect the events on the island. Even Battler only tries to deny witches within those two days. What I suggested, with Hachijo recording what she views over the Fragments, only affects the larger view or 'mystery' of Umineko, which certainly should take the meta-world into account.

The deal with Rika is a whole can of worms with some people that I don't think we should even approach it. At best, Rika lives in a parallel universe anyway, and the kakera might have different laws between them ("This is a fantasy kakera, this one's mystery, this one's horror, etc").

Umineko would take place in one of the non-magical ones.

We even know from various dialogues that the red/blue truth is something exclusive to Beatrice’s ‘gameboard’, not a feature of the Fragments at large.

But other dialogs also right out insinuate that Beatrice did not invent the red truth, and we know blue truth exists on Erika's "gameboards."

It's worth noting that in The Book written 2000 years ago about the man who knew the single element, that man's words were written in red...

Like I said above, didn't Bern say all these things in red, regarding Erika? Doesn't that mean that witches can interfere?
I'll admit I'm a bit unsure. Been a while since ep 5.

EP5 is fictional. Hachijou even says she wrote it.

Aaahh, I think i'm getting on the same page as you guys. I'll admit that it does make sense, thinking about how Bern set up the last game (Kyrie etc), and said that this game "Had no game master". However, the first game being fake seems a bit weird, thinking about the fact that the "original", now meta-Battler participating in it. One thing is when the "piece" battler is participating, but this one was the original.

Ah, well.

The Battler of EP1 doesn't know things the real Battler is implied to know, and since EP1 was a written story, Meta-Battler/EP1 Battler is a fictional existence.

Jaden

2011-01-18, 22:14

AuraTwilight

2011-01-18, 22:44

Well, it is never stated in red which episodes are tales from parallel universes (ie things that could have happened), and which are fundamentally fabrications (no matter how much Bernkastel fishes, she wouldn't find such a case, it's impossible)...But why does this matter again? I, and probably most people, just want one truth. Probabilities just go way over my head, don't care about that.

If alternate universes exist, how can One Truth be possible?

Moreover, is there necessarily a difference between a fictional story and a parallel universe?

What I consider important in the author theory is, who really wrote which piece, for what purpose, and how different is the information in the message bottles/fanfictions compared to what us, the "observer witches" from another world, are shown.

Is there a difference between what the Witch-Hunters/Ange reads and what we're reading? Ange's and Hachijou's dialog don't seem to. "Red ink", and the mention of meta-characters, certainly imply a strong similarity.

There's a little bit of evidence that ep1,2 were two of the endless possible scenarios that Yasu thought out, and s/he put them out to confuse people and obscure the real truth. The rest would be forgeries, or mysteries written by Hachijo that got popular on the internet.

Anything else?

With the two possible exceptions: Yasu's motive seems to be for people to figure out the truth, not to obscure it. And we don't really know at this point how much Hachijou actually wrote and how much she's lying about writing.

Keriaku

2011-01-18, 23:46

The deal with Rika is a whole can of worms with some people that I don't think we should even approach it. At best, Rika lives in a parallel universe anyway, and the kakera might have different laws between them ("This is a fantasy kakera, this one's mystery, this one's horror, etc").

Umineko would take place in one of the non-magical ones.

Well I believe something that is shown within the story without much/any interpretive twisting, is supported by the prequel series, and fits with other overarching theories equally as well holds more weight than the idea that different sets of kakera hold different rules.

But other dialogs also right out insinuate that Beatrice did not invent the red truth, and we know blue truth exists on Erika's "gameboards."

It's worth noting that in The Book written 2000 years ago about the man who knew the single element, that man's words were written in red..

I would argument that the concepts behind red and blue truth, with the red being an absolute fact and the blue being a belief or argument, are definitely what exist everywhere, as they're concepts. This doesn't interfere with the idea that Beatrice could have been the one to create this form of using concepts in a symbolic (spoken/written) format applied towards mystery. The idea about Erika is even easier to address.

Erika is stated to be a human that recently became a 'witch'. She is shown to be just learning the 'system' and talks about how she how she 'later' (relative to the time frame) got Bernkastel to raise things to the level of red truth, which would be after she entered Beatrice's Gameboard. Even the conversation she had with Dlanor seemed like she was 'redoing' with the red/blue rules, even though she already knew the result.

Quote:
Well, it is never stated in red which episodes are tales from parallel universes (ie things that could have happened), and which are fundamentally fabrications (no matter how much Bernkastel fishes, she wouldn't find such a case, it's impossible)...But why does this matter again? I, and probably most people, just want one truth. Probabilities just go way over my head, don't care about that.

If alternate universes exist, how can One Truth be possible?

Moreover, is there necessarily a difference between a fictional story and a parallel universe?

Quote:
What I consider important in the author theory is, who really wrote which piece, for what purpose, and how different is the information in the message bottles/fanfictions compared to what us, the "observer witches" from another world, are shown.

Is there a difference between what the Witch-Hunters/Ange reads and what we're reading? Ange's and Hachijou's dialog don't seem to. "Red ink", and the mention of meta-characters, certainly imply a strong similarity.

The only difference between a fictonal story and a parallel universe is in the perspection of the two. I personally think when people usually link the two, it's downplaying the significance of it. But if one realizes how this can be a really interesting concept then I can see what you mean.

I recently started reading a book, I Am a Strange Loop, and it touches upon how the concept of loops can create higher emergent properties in reality, such as consciousness and such. With this in mind, the idea that people in the world of Umineko, which is in itself in our world, is reading exactly what we are reading creates a reality loop. It spirals in their direction in the reality loop by their being stories that the characters read that could be identical to what we are reading, and it loops back on us by there being being the same thing that could be happening to us if we accept the loop we see in the story. That's kinda cool, just thought of this now

winter 923

2011-01-19, 03:50

She says the crisis would've been averted if Battler came back a year earlier or later. You're paraphrasing incorrectly.

Yea i got it wrong here is the original wording
Clair "However, as long as the fact that Battler-san returns in 1986 remains unchanged, ......some sort of tragedy would certainly have occurred."
Will "That's right. If Battler had returned a year earlier or later, ...that incident might not have occurred."
Narrator "No, some small incident would probably have occurred. And it would surely have been a mysterious, impossible incident, which no one could understand.
But even so, compared to the Rokkenjima serial murders, it would be a tiny thing..."I can see that people say that incident would be Yasu quitting and leaving the island but the comparing with a murder threw me off.
...thanks to looking after this part i found something strange
Clair "It made me walk the path of a witch, and when I solved the epitaph, I became a true witch. ...Then, six years passed, and I learned of his return."

It might be because of my insufficient english knowledge but doesn't this say six years passed after she solved the epitaph?What i don't like about making every Episode fictional is the meta world. It is basicly ignoring that Battler from EP1 got in the meta world and did fight with Beatrice over several Episodes. The whole "Battler remembers his crime and finds Beatrice's truth" is a long road in the meta world beginning from EP1. I can't see how this fits into the Author theory

Witch of Uncertainty

2011-01-19, 04:04

Kylon99

2011-01-19, 05:06

What i don't like about making every Episode fictional is the meta world. It is basicly ignoring that Battler from EP1 got in the meta world and did fight with Beatrice over several Episodes. The whole "Battler remembers his crime and finds Beatrice's truth" is a long road in the meta world beginning from EP1. I can't see how this fits into the Author theory

If you're talking about the Author Theory that some of us discuss on here, then Meta-Battler is technically one of the characters in the fiction. And the Meta World is also part of the fiction, to some degree.

The Author Theory isn't just that the stories are fiction. That's one of the early forms of the theory. The one I proposed (or rather the theory I proposed that makes it so that it's not useless) states that the episodes were written with clues and truth in mind; so that the authors are compelling you to try and find the truth or to convey the truth, etc.

Especially so for Beatrice/Yasu's stories.

The full explanation is in my signature link, under Umineko Unified Theories. The theories there only spoil till EP6. I haven't needed to update any of them after EP7 or 8.

As I said previously, Erika is confirmed in red not to exist in any of the other kakera. However, accortding to the TIPS in ep 6, her family reports that she was around the area when "The rokkenjima explosion" occured. This must mean that Erika actually has a family and they do not take part in the story, nor do they matter.

My idea is that the Erika that we see in EP5 and 6 may not even really be the Rokkenjima Prime Erika. Or, basically her character and the idea that she is a traditional 'Great Detective' doesn't really hold water for Rokkenjima Prime in my opinion. How can there be a 'detective character' in a real world? So, I believe the person 'Furudo Erika' was hijacked into a character for EP5 and 6 and her portrayal in those stories may not even slightly resemble the Erika from Rokkenjima Prime.

But yah, her family, and her real world circumstances don't seem to really count in EP5 and 6... she seems to be a character of convenience... 8)

AuraTwilight

2011-01-19, 06:14

Clair "However, as long as the fact that Battler-san returns in 1986 remains unchanged, ......some sort of tragedy would certainly have occurred."
Will "That's right. If Battler had returned a year earlier or later, ...that incident might not have occurred."
Narrator "No, some small incident would probably have occurred. And it would surely have been a mysterious, impossible incident, which no one could understand.
But even so, compared to the Rokkenjima serial murders, it would be a tiny thing..."

I'm pretty sure this is referring to either Shannon or Kanon ceasing to exist. The adults flipping out and getting into a fight over gold wouldn't be a tiny thing.

...thanks to looking after this part i found something strange
Clair "It made me walk the path of a witch, and when I solved the epitaph, I became a true witch. ...Then, six years passed, and I learned of his return."

It might be because of my insufficient english knowledge but doesn't this say six years passed after she solved the epitaph?

Not quite. It should be written better, but it's more like "Then I completed the Epitaph. Then, I noticed that it had been six years since [Battler left]."

The change in the subject implies a shift in time comparison.

Okay, I only have one last question regarding the "one" real world thing.
As I said previously, Erika is confirmed in red not to exist in any of the other kakera. However, accortding to the TIPS in ep 6, her family reports that she was around the area when "The rokkenjima explosion" occured. This must mean that Erika actually has a family and they do not take part in the story, nor do they matter.

The idea is that Erika never came to Rokkenjima, so she "can't exist there." Morever, apparently Bernkastel took the Erika Furudo character and sort of remade it to fit her purposes. At the very least, she says she gave Erika blue hair. It's sort of like a fictional version based on the real Erika who just sort of drowned.

Jaden

2011-01-19, 09:03

If alternate universes exist, how can One Truth be possible?

Well this actually made me think about what the truth I want exposed. There's no two ways about it, what matters is what happened in the world where we can see the 1998 perspective, with grown up Ange etc.

Of course there are others. For example the "happy ending" Willard is looking for...but I don't care about that one. Actually, Willard kind of annoyed me when he revealed that in the end. Does that mean he has an agenda, to never accept a truth that's unhappy? What was his deduction and the identification of Beatrice then? Just fabrication? Bernkastel actually taunted him about this, saying it's ridiculous for him of all people to give up to magic, and I have to agree.

Moreover, is there necessarily a difference between a fictional story and a parallel universe?

Philosophical. I personally don't care for either thing and will be happy with one truth. XD

maximilianjenus

2011-01-19, 09:24

Since I can't get into an agreement in the rokkenjima prime/author theory as I prefer the akasha/quantum concept because I find it religiously elegant , I will avoid talking about that and move to the "what would happen if battler did not come back to rokkenjima" discussion.

In case he came back later, shannon would have already married george, that already ensures an incident related to eva not liking that, so a big fight would happen, the family would take sides; if shannon did not reveal that she is the family head then not even a murder would happen as eva is not a murderer; it would have been worse if shannon revealed to be the family head as that would involve the rest of the family including murderer kyrie.

In case he came back earlier he would have beaten george and jessica in the love duel, nobody would oppose to their marriage and even if shannon for no good reason revealed to be the family head kyrie would be on their side so the murders would be kept at a minimum if they happened at all ( my guess is that kyrie would wait until everythign calmed down then kill krauss' family with magic).

haguruma

2011-01-19, 09:52

Okay, I only have one last question regarding the "one" real world thing.
As I said previously, Erika is confirmed in red not to exist in any of the other kakera. However, accortding to the TIPS in ep 6, her family reports that she was around the area when "The rokkenjima explosion" occured. This must mean that Erika actually has a family and they do not take part in the story, nor do they matter.
Most people already started explaining this but I will give it another go.

There was a Furudo Erika who took a boat-trip with her boyfriend during the time the family conference occured.
This boat of course also got into the typhoon that hit the islands.
Through not closer examined circumstances Furudo Erika went over board and was never rescued (I for one assume she was pushed over by her boyfriend).

Because her body was never recovered (which is not uncommon in that part of the sea) people have assumed several things about her and they can because she basically never died...she just vanished.
So Hachijô Tôya decided to use her as a character in the stories (probably some other authors too) and ended her fate in that way, that she somehow made it to the shore of Rokkenjima and became a detective there...and because Rokkenjima is a catbox nobody can prove that she was not on the island.

maximilianjenus

2011-01-19, 10:41

was her boyfriend ever implied to be in the boat as well i got the impression that hey had broken up for a few weeks already, which also implie s asuicide from erika's part.

Jan-Poo

2011-01-19, 10:46

Such a thing was never implied. Suicide is the most probable explanation here.

maximilianjenus

2011-01-19, 11:24

a)Just to point out that while Is eriously disagree with you on the author theory and I am letting that go, as I have been (slowly) reading the pre patch post (I am currently on page 75 of this topic) I pretty much agree with you on your reasoning on several other account regarding umineko.

b)Something that I consider an interesting exercise (but I am waiting until after ep08 is translated to do it properly) is to write a single scenario for which all red truth applies.
Is there a list of red truths somewhere online, preferably separated by episode ?

c)I am very satisfied with this episode, as I suspected kyrie and kanon a lot especially after episode 4 was out and I got a chance to re-read the previous ones, but I cna understand a lot of people hating it, especially because the first pages of the topic gave me that impression; can't wait until 8 is translated.

Lumy

2011-01-19, 11:58

Is there a list of red truths somewhere online, preferably separated by episode ?

http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Truth

AuraTwilight

2011-01-19, 14:59

Of course there are others. For example the "happy ending" Willard is looking for...but I don't care about that one. Actually, Willard kind of annoyed me when he revealed that in the end. Does that mean he has an agenda, to never accept a truth that's unhappy? What was his deduction and the identification of Beatrice then? Just fabrication? Bernkastel actually taunted him about this, saying it's ridiculous for him of all people to give up to magic, and I have to agree.

No, Will wasn't really biased in his Clair execution. The thing is that he feels Bernkastel is artificially editing Lion's story to end tragically for no reason.

"Even though none of that backstory happens...um....everyone flips out and Lion dies, lol."

In case he came back later, shannon would have already married george, that already ensures an incident related to eva not liking that, so a big fight would happen, the family would take sides; if shannon did not reveal that she is the family head then not even a murder would happen as eva is not a murderer; it would have been worse if shannon revealed to be the family head as that would involve the rest of the family including murderer kyrie.

In case he came back earlier he would have beaten george and jessica in the love duel, nobody would oppose to their marriage and even if shannon for no good reason revealed to be the family head kyrie would be on their side so the murders would be kept at a minimum if they happened at all ( my guess is that kyrie would wait until everythign calmed down then kill krauss' family with magic).

What makes you so sure Kyrie would kill anyone in those circumstances? The only reason she decided to kill anyone in the EP7 Tea Party was because she could destroy the evidence with the bomb.

maximilianjenus

2011-01-19, 16:30

She would kill people to make sure that nobody interfers with battler becoming the new head, since the role of the female head is to make whoever marries her the head.

Judoh

2011-01-19, 16:39

She would kill people to make sure that nobody interfers with battler becoming the new head, since the role of the female head is to make whoever marries her the head.

Killing his whole family because Battler doesn't like commitment is a pretty shallow reason to be a murderer. Funny how it's not denied by the red at all.

winter 923

2011-01-19, 17:04

I'm pretty sure this is referring to either Shannon or Kanon ceasing to exist. The adults flipping out and getting into a fight over gold wouldn't be a tiny thing.But there is still the "mysterious" and "no one could understand" if there is only one world then only Yasu knows that Kanon exist anyway there is nobody for anything to understand. It's her persona, the same with Gaap. Doesn't Kanon only exists in the real world because Yasu included him in the Message Bottles and Eva didn't say anything. I Agree that the gunfight wouldn't be tiny but let's say a death of Yasu and/or Rudolf would still be tiny compared to 15 dead people.If alternate universes exist, how can One Truth be possible?Depends on the truth you seek. There is a "why did the bomb go off" and also "why Beatrice got killed". Meh might not even be the right question to solve this puzzle but my point is that there can be one truth and i am not talking about red."Who killed Mion" there isn't only 1 Answer to that but "Who killed Rika" or "Who is the mastermind behind the massmurder" does have a single Answer, the same with why.

AuraTwilight

2011-01-19, 17:11

But there is still the "mysterious" and "no one could understand" if there is only one world then only Yasu knows that Kanon exist anyway there is nobody for anything to understand. It's her persona, the same with Gaap. Doesn't Kanon only exists in the real world because Yasu included him in the Message Bottles and Eva didn't say anything. I Agree that the gunfight wouldn't be tiny but let's say a death of Yasu and/or Rudolf would still be tiny compared to 15 dead people.
Quote:

Yasu walks around dressed as Shannon and Kanon. As far as most people know, Shannon and Kanon are actual people that George and Jessica are dating. If she marries George, Kanon will mysteriously disappear and no one will understand. Vice versa if she goes with Jessica and Shannon vanishes.

Also, I really doubt Yasu could predict ahead of time that a gunfight would happen when she merely learns that Battler's going to show up. She's not psychic, and it's not something she controls, like what happens to Shannon and Kanon.

Depends on the truth you seek. There is a "why did the bomb go off" and also "why Beatrice got killed". Meh might not even be the right question to solve this puzzle but my point is that there can be one truth and i am not talking about red.

But if there are multiple universes, there are multiple answers. Higurashi isn't at all comparable, as Higurashi never even once pretended there was "One Truth" like Umineko.

Judoh

2011-01-19, 17:11

"Who killed Mion" there isn't only 1 Answer to that but "Who killed Rika" or "Who is the mastermind behind the massmurder" does have a single Answer, the same with why.

Actually there are two. There isn't one truth about who kills Rika. In most instances she's killed by Takano like what happens in the third game and the disaster happens according to the emergency manual. In rarer instances she's killed by Shion earlier, without Takano knowing. That ruins Takano's plan, and (I think) the disaster doesn't happen because Rika being dead for 2 days without people going insane proves Takano's theory is wrong. Higurashi didn't have one truth. Umineko does.

maximilianjenus

2011-01-19, 17:21

Killing his whole family because Battler doesn't like commitment is a pretty shallow reason to be a murderer. Funny how it's not denied by the red at all.

again, I guess my post was not clear enough; what does battler's commitment has to do with anything, the scenario I tried to write was the next:

1) battler marries shanon.
2) shanon says she is yasu thus revealing she is the head.
3) krauss/eva oposse the concept battler becomingthe next head.
4) kyrie kills them with magic.

Judoh

2011-01-19, 17:24

Oh I messed up. I thought you were talking about Yasu. Didn't read what Aura was saying.

But part of the reason for that misunderstanding was because you were talking about the role of the female head. Which shouldn't apply to Kyrie whatsoever. So what are you referring to there?

AuraTwilight

2011-01-19, 17:28

So...Kyrie kills them because....?

If she just kills people who dissent against Battler's headship, she won't get away with it and everything will fall apart. Kyrie is pragmatic, and only does things with the most benefit. It'd be better to just beat Krauss or Eva in a legal dispute than just kill them and get sent to jail.

winter 923

2011-01-19, 17:56

But how do we know that she is dressing around as Shannon/Kanon. The whole Shkanon theory got a lot more credit with it being just Yasu and not having everywhere Wigs, Fake Breasts and Dresses hidden around the Mansion and changing the role on her wim.
I think Jessica was just attracted to Yasu which she knows almost her whole life. The school Festival all Yasu did wear was a long Coat and with her being Androgyn her classmates would assume it being a boy. I don't think Natsuhi does know that a Servant Kanon exists, not the Natushi outside the Message Bottle.

There is "One Truth" to certain questions. "This story doesn't have a happy ending." but does that mean that "What did my Parents do before they died" has to have one single truth?

Dang i forgot about that. But still i like to think that if you look close enought you will find certain things that can be answered with a single truth. As for the disaster not happening, same could be said about Higurashi EP1(i think) or Umineko EP 5-6. It wasn't shown/the story ended before it could occure.

AuraTwilight

2011-01-19, 18:23

But how do we know that she is dressing around as Shannon/Kanon. The whole Shkanon theory got a lot more credit with it being just Yasu and not having everywhere Wigs, Fake Breasts and Dresses hidden around the Mansion and changing the role on her wim.

Everyone remembers and acknowledges characters named Shannon and Kanon running around. Fictional Shkanon theory doesn't work because it requires ignoring and rewriting almost half the cast. Besides, Yasu has to put on Beatrice costumes and run around with wigs, fake breasts, and dresses ANYWAY.

I think Jessica was just attracted to Yasu which she knows almost her whole life. The school Festival all Yasu did wear was a long Coat and with her being Androgyn her classmates would assume it being a boy. I don't think Natsuhi does know that a Servant Kanon exists, not the Natushi outside the Message Bottle.

So Jessica and George are knowingly after the same person and don't understand why this is a problem? Yea, don't buy it.

There is "One Truth" to certain questions. "This story doesn't have a happy ending." but does that mean that "What did my Parents do before they died" has to have one single truth?

There is One Truth. When the Catbox is opened, there will only be one possibility.

Judoh

2011-01-19, 19:26

So Jessica and George are knowingly after the same person and don't understand why this is a problem? Yea, don't buy it.

I wouldn't beleive they knew as far back as Jessica's school festival. Well they are told about the nature of Furniture in episode 6. Offscreen anyway. So maybe they do know in 1986 at least.

Jan-Poo

2011-01-19, 20:43

I always found Jessica's reaction at the news of George's marriage proposal to Shannon very strange.

It seems to me that it was kinda out of character for her to accept as something inevitable that if Shannon left the island so would Kanon. Well in the first place she already knew that before Kanon told her, but I guess one could imagine that Kanon already told her that in a previous instance. Even so, I think it would have been a more natural reaction for Jessica to ask Kanon to stay and to ask why he needs to leave if Shannon does. Why she accepts that so easily?

This is the reason why since EP6 I thought that deep inside Jessica already knew.

AuraTwilight

2011-01-19, 23:01

The way that scene is written leads me to believe that Kanon had filled her in "off-camera," since they share a number of unseen moments together in this kakera. If Jessica knew the whole time that "Shannon leaving = Kanon leaving", then she would not be so abundantly happy for Shannon and George in like every other moment their marriage is brought up.

maximilianjenus

2011-01-20, 10:08

Dang i forgot about that. But still i like to think that if you look close enought you will find certain things that can be answered with a single truth. As for the disaster not happening, same could be said about Higurashi EP1(i think) or Umineko EP 5-6. It wasn't shown/the story ended before it could occure.

in ep1 rika should get killed too, I think that episode and the events of the original anime arc happen in the same kakera. about watanagashi/meakashi, the massacre should not happen there for takano can't order their men around while having tokyo take the blame as the queen carrier theory is disproven ijn this situation.

So...Kyrie kills them because....?

If she just kills people who dissent against Battler's headship, she won't get away with it and everything will fall apart. Kyrie is pragmatic, and only does things with the most benefit. It'd be better to just beat Krauss or Eva in a legal dispute than just kill them and get sent to jail.

But kyrie won't be sent to jail, she would kill them using magic, just like she did to asm.

This is the reason why since EP6 I thought that deep inside Jessica already knew.

yeah, i alwasy tought jessica was a closet lesbian, fits her character.

Renall

2011-01-20, 14:13

Of course there are others. For example the "happy ending" Willard is looking for...but I don't care about that one. Actually, Willard kind of annoyed me when he revealed that in the end. Does that mean he has an agenda, to never accept a truth that's unhappy? What was his deduction and the identification of Beatrice then? Just fabrication? Bernkastel actually taunted him about this, saying it's ridiculous for him of all people to give up to magic, and I have to agree.Will is biased. This is his character flaw, and the reason he is not completely trustworthy. He has an axe to grind and an agenda. It's relatively benign as Umineko motivations go, but it is there.

As to whether that affected his conclusions as stated, probably not. He didn't really sugarcoat his answers. He is, however, an overly sentimental person, and I think that led him to jump to conclusions in his investigation.Everyone remembers and acknowledges characters named Shannon and Kanon running around. Fictional Shkanon theory doesn't work because it requires ignoring and rewriting almost half the cast. Besides, Yasu has to put on Beatrice costumes and run around with wigs, fake breasts, and dresses ANYWAY.Or maybe none of that actually happened and you're just really biased toward the idea? Most of that stuff isn't and probably never will be adequately explained. I'm sure we'll never get a "how it works" regardless, since there is no explanation for how it could work (especially a Disguise Shkanon) that isn't invasively and offensively stupid.

AuraTwilight

2011-01-20, 14:56

But kyrie won't be sent to jail, she would kill them using magic, just like she did to asm.

Kyrie didn't kill Asumu, and even still, killing all the higher-ranked heirs to the Headship after Battler becomes the Head is really hard to set up as an accident.

Or maybe none of that actually happened and you're just really biased toward the idea? Most of that stuff isn't and probably never will be adequately explained. I'm sure we'll never get a "how it works" regardless, since there is no explanation for how it could work (especially a Disguise Shkanon) that isn't invasively and offensively stupid.

Ryukishi DID say that he wasn't going to do things like making the George/Shannon and Jessica/Kanon romances somehow faked or unreal. If we cut out the existence of two characters and replace them with a middle one they may or may not be romantically pursuing, that's pretty blatantly breaking the "Word of God", to use Tropespeak.

Honestly, Jessica's the only person who doesn't have an excuse for not picking up on Shkanon, and if she knew the whole time or is a hormonal bisexual, welll...

Jan-Poo

2011-01-20, 15:16

Ryukishi DID say that he wasn't going to do things like making the George/Shannon and Jessica/Kanon romances somehow faked or unreal

He did? Quote please!

Renall

2011-01-20, 15:22

Ryukishi DID say that he wasn't going to do things like making the George/Shannon and Jessica/Kanon romances somehow faked or unreal. If we cut out the existence of two characters and replace them with a middle one they may or may not be romantically pursuing, that's pretty blatantly breaking the "Word of God", to use Tropespeak.I don't see how in-universe fiction George and Jessica are "faked or unreal" in any manner in-universe "real" George and Jessica aren't.

Nevermind that no one has any reason to go along with it even if they do know and that it still wouldn't matter in-story where knowledge of the identity automatically grants at least accomplice status. It's never not been stupid.

AuraTwilight

2011-01-20, 17:00

He did? Quote please!

That thing about how he'd never deny the George/Shannon romance and others because it'd be a "cruel trap."

I don't see how in-universe fiction George and Jessica are "faked or unreal" in any manner in-universe "real" George and Jessica aren't.

I'm talking about how the fictional Shkanon idea pretty much negates the Shannon/Kanon romances as silly farces. It'd make the full step into George and Jessica basically playing a game courting a person they know is involved with someone else.

Nevermind that no one has any reason to go along with it even if they do know and that it still wouldn't matter in-story where knowledge of the identity automatically grants at least accomplice status. It's never not been stupid.

I don't understand what this is referring to, here. Was there a miscommunication somewhere?

maximilianjenus

2011-01-20, 17:02

Kyrie didn't kill Asumu, and even still, killing all the higher-ranked heirs to the Headship after Battler becomes the Head is really hard to set up as an accident.

She admitted to doing so in ep06.

Jan-Poo

2011-01-20, 17:18

No, she didn't. She admitted she had the resolution to kill Asumu, but at the same time she made clear it wasn't her that did it.

Of course you could say that she killed Asumu and then covered the fact with "magic" but you can't say that she admitted she actually did it herself.

Renall

2011-01-20, 17:18

I'm talking about how the fictional Shkanon idea pretty much negates the Shannon/Kanon romances as silly farces. It'd make the full step into George and Jessica basically playing a game courting a person they know is involved with someone else.I don't see any of that in the text of the message bottles and later fictions as written. Are you quite sure you aren't injecting your own opinion of their merit into the stories? What about the meta-romances of ep6, are those a silly farce? It's functionally identical and vastly less insulting than the alternative.

Jan-Poo

2011-01-20, 17:19

Which is way I asked for a quote. Not because I don't like the idea, on the contrary, but if that affirmation actually exists, hell yeah I'd be very happy to see it. As of now I don't really remember that though...

Judoh

2011-01-20, 17:20

She admitted to doing so in ep06.

No she didn't. You can check the text yourself. She never said that she murdered her.

Keriaku

2011-01-20, 17:39

I kind of feel that the point Ryuukishi is trying to make is that no matter how you look at it, the relationships of Shannon/George and Kanon/Jessica as presented are 'real' enough, and there's no need or reason to try and break it down furthur.

maximilianjenus

2011-01-20, 19:26

No she didn't. You can check the text yourself. She never said that she murdered her.

The way I read/interpreted the scene meant for me that she admitted to killing asm, kyrie told jessica that she did not kill asm ( which is logical as she would never admit the crime), but she slipped that she really wanted to do so and that magically, asm died just like that. by what we got to know about the sumaderas in ep 04, i.e., kasumi who was supossed to be a half assed new head for the sumaderas commanded a nice group of goons, it's pretty obvious to me that kyrie had it really easy, being more clever than asm and having better access to the sumadera resources to just hire someone to poison, etc... asm.

as most scenes with umineko you can read it the opossite way, but for me that scene meant kyrie admitting that she killed asm.

AuraTwilight

2011-01-20, 19:57

I don't see any of that in the text of the message bottles and later fictions as written. Are you quite sure you aren't injecting your own opinion of their merit into the stories? What about the meta-romances of ep6, are those a silly farce? It's functionally identical and vastly less insulting than the alternative.

You must have misunderstood. I'm responding specifically to the hypothesis that George and Jessica are aware that they're dating the same person, not Fictional Shkanon in general.

In that sense, it's not functionally identical, as it removes a major element of characters such as Jessica not grasping why they need to duel.

The way I read/interpreted the scene meant for me that she admitted to killing asm, kyrie told jessica that she did not kill asm ( which is logical as she would never admit the crime), but she slipped that she really wanted to do so and that magically, asm died just like that. by what we got to know about the sumaderas in ep 04, i.e., kasumi who was supossed to be a half assed new head for the sumaderas commanded a nice group of goons, it's pretty obvious to me that kyrie had it really easy, being more clever than asm and having better access to the sumadera resources to just hire someone to poison, etc... asm.

Kyrie did not kill Asumu. "The miracle wasn't that Asumu died, but that I didn't have to dirty my hands."

If Kyrie was going to kill Asumu, she'd of certainly done it a lot sooner than 12 or so years. You can interpret it however you like, but your interpretation doesn't exist within the actual text.

liberatedliberator

2011-01-20, 21:07

I wonder if that team that does the fan voice dramas is working on this EP. I would love to hear the tea party, or the end of the tea party voiced and in action.

rogerpepitone

2011-01-20, 22:23

Did Kyrie give any reason why she made up her mind to kill Asumu? Considering the timing, I think the trigger is likely to have been that she learned she was pregnant.

Renall

2011-01-20, 22:41

Did Kyrie give any reason why she made up her mind to kill Asumu? Considering the timing, I think the trigger is likely to have been that she learned she was pregnant.The reason she gave was the reason she'd always had, she just says it took her that long to resolve to do it. Being pregnant with Ange might do it, the timing does sort of jive.

Of course the notion that maybe she really did kill Asumu is still floating out there, but since we know basically nothing whatsoever about Asumu there's not much to speculate on there.

AuraTwilight

2011-01-21, 02:23

I wonder if that team that does the fan voice dramas is working on this EP. I would love to hear the tea party, or the end of the tea party voiced and in action.

They haven't made any announcement whatsoever. They skipped EP5, if I recall correctly (which is weird), so they might skip to EP8 if they follow that pattern?

LyricalAura

2011-01-21, 02:44

They haven't made any announcement whatsoever. They skipped EP5, if I recall correctly (which is weird), so they might skip to EP8 if they follow that pattern?

Do you mean a Japanese voicing or an English one? I've at least heard the ??? tea party in Japanese (and Dlanor is awesome).

AuraTwilight

2011-01-21, 03:25

Really? Damn, I missed it. PM me a youtube link or something.

Kirroha

2011-01-21, 03:40

They probably had problems with finding a voice actor for Lion.

After all, a purely Kanon-type voice would not work completely.

winter 923

2011-01-21, 04:13

The way I read/interpreted the scene meant for me that she admitted to killing asm, kyrie told jessica that she did not kill asm ( which is logical as she would never admit the crime), but she slipped that she really wanted to do so and that magically, asm died just like that.I Agree with that, she also says a woman should be able to kill for her love at least once.
Saying someone should be able to kill for his love is fine. Admitting a murder is just stupid. So yes we can only interpret that she killed her with magic.

I have a question about Genji, or maybe Yasu.Genji was asked whether Kinzo and Beatrice ever had a child together, and he denied it saying 'I have not head of anything like that'.
"That may have been a lie, but in a way, it was a perfect sort of answer for one of Kinzo's confidants. ......After all, in Kinzo's eyes, she wasn't a daughter, but Beatrice reborn."I have a problem with that, even if it was a loophole for Genji to deny Beatrice #2. Lion/Yasu should still be a Child between Kinzo and Beatrice. So it was a lie with no buts or there is still something up with Lion.

AuraTwilight

2011-01-21, 05:45

It's not like Genji's never lied before, Mister "I was writing down Kinzo's will just now."

maximilianjenus

2011-01-21, 09:23

yeah, genji si expected to lie isf it is to cover up for his hamster.

Kirroha

2011-01-21, 09:49

hamster

That's great.

CrystalStarlight95

2011-01-21, 09:58

Quick question: What are all the names of the Stake Maids in EP7? I know there's Asune and Berune, but do they tell you the other ones? :O

immblueversion

2011-01-21, 10:22

Quick question: What are all the names of the Stake Maids in EP7? I know there's Asune and Berune, but do they tell you the other ones? :O

Ruon = Lucifer
Renon = Leviathan
Sanon = Satan
Reinon = Belphegor
Manon = Mammon
Berune = Beelzebub
Asune = Asmodeus

Jan-Poo

2011-01-21, 11:15

The only confirmed names are Asune and Berune.

The others are merely speculated. Besides it wouldn't make sense for Runon and Renon to be the Lucifer-Maid and Leviathan-Maid we've seen since they left the Mansion before Kanon appeared and the Runon and Renon that were mentioned in early episodes definitely worked at the time Kanon was there.

The only one that would make sense is Manon=Mammon but that's still unconfirmed.

Judoh

2011-01-21, 11:34

CrystalStarlight95

2011-01-21, 13:11

Well, when I'm bored I transcribe all of EP7. I'm getting to the Stake Maids soon, so I was wondering if they're names were shown. I can still use the ones immblueversion said.

maximilianjenus

2011-01-21, 13:24

They just hired her back, I surely would ;)

My favorite part of this episode was when beatrice was agonyzing over the posibility of leaving rokkenjima and moving to battler's city, the galge possibilites of that are enormous, even more if we put lucifer's persona in that city as a working adult.

AuraTwilight

2011-01-21, 15:52

It doesn't make sense for the Lucifer maid to be Runon anyway. She leaves after Yasu's first year working there. While Runon is mentioned in the intro/flashback in episode 2, which is supposed to be much, much later.

To play devil's advocate, there could theoretically be more than one Runon or whoever, since there names are all just the combining of two characters.

Jan-Poo

2011-01-21, 23:48

To play devil's advocate, there could theoretically be more than one Runon or whoever, since there names are all just the combining of two characters.

well if it wasn't for Berune and Asune I would be certain that Lucifer's and leviahtan's names in a way or another are Runon, Renon, and so on. But considering those two, who knows? Maybe they were called RUSHINE and REBINE.

Judoh

2011-01-21, 23:53

well if it wasn't for Berune and Asune I would be certain that Lucifer's and leviahtan's names in a way or another are Runon, Renon, and so on. But considering those two, who knows? Maybe they were called RUSHINE and REBINE.

Wasn't it explained that those names are for private use, when they're not working, and that the blessed, or, "on" names are used when Genji and Natsuhi are around?

AuraTwilight

2011-01-22, 01:13

Uh, I don't think so. Last I checked, Berune and Asune are made from the same "blessed names" system.

liberatedliberator

2011-01-22, 02:46

They haven't made any announcement whatsoever. They skipped EP5, if I recall correctly (which is weird), so they might skip to EP8 if they follow that pattern?
Are we talking about the same group? I'm talking about the Japanese group that did the ending of EP4, the EP4 Tea Party, EP5 ???, and countless scenes from EP6 including Shannon and Kanon's love talk, their duel in the Golden Land, the wedding, and Beato crashing the wedding.

They are all pretty amazing to listen to. I am not aware if they are doing any voice dramas for EP7, which I hope they do eventually :[

Kirroha

2011-01-22, 02:57

They did one for Ep6 too, and I particularly enjoyed the Shannon-Kanon duel.

zibbazabba905

2011-01-25, 13:27

Did anyone get to this part
http://i52.tinypic.com/4t6g4z.png
and think
Teatrice confirmed!

Klarth

2011-01-25, 16:20

Posting this here cause this is as far as I've read

I've been trying to piece together what's happened throughout each of the games, and although I got through episode one with only a few bumps, I've had a lot of trouble with Episode 2.

For the first twilight, I've found that it works if the 7 adults solve the epitaph, and find Yasutrice and the gold.They bring up some gold (as "their share", or collateral or something), and Yasu kills six of them. Rosa is chosen to "Stay alive" for no particular reason, or maybe because she's the youngest. Alternatively, the six older adults solve the epitaph, die by Yasu, and somehow get Rosa to come to the chapel (perhaps by a sealed letter?), where Rosa becomes convinced the Beatrice she killed has revived and as such follows her every command to the letter.
The "chapel door was never locked" solution seems to fit well.

For the second twilight, it's slightly harder to solve. But, at least for this episode, I like to think the fantasy scenes have a lot of meaning. Kanon is comforting Jessica, when Jessica says something along the lines of how she's going to kill whoever killed her parents, or how she hates whoever did it. Kanon tries to convince himself he's not the culprit, but he knows it was partially him who killed them last night. He becomes angry/crazy/enraged, kills Jessica (probably not as Kanon), and, without someone to love, the Kanon existence "dies".

The forth, fifth, sixth, twilight confuse me. But, what I've come up with is something like:
Shannon and George want to sleep together the same night they get engaged, or perhaps just spend the night together when they find out they might die by morning. They decide they'd best find a room, so they go all the way to the chapel to find Natsuhi's key. (They don't want to go to the guesthouse, they don't want to go to Jessica's room, they choose between Natsuhi's/Krauss' at random) This explanation is kinda bad, but I don't see any other reason why they'd go to Natsuhi's room. There, they begin a moment of intimacy when Shannon reveals her messed up genitals. George tries to explain he loves her anyway, but probably says something like "even if we can't have children, I'll still love you". This corresponds to the scene where Beatrice tells Shannon that George only wants her for her flesh, out of his lust, and Shannon also goes crazy/insane/angry at her loveless body. She kills George, than kills herself out of grief.

The problem with this is, where does Gohda fit? Why is he dead in the same room? It could be that he came as a servant in the truest sense, so Shannon (who had "ascended" because of the engagement) and George could talk freely without being embarrassed by a mere servant. Shannon simply kills him cause he's there. Or, the conversation about Shannon's genitals occurs as they unlock the door, and once she starts going insane George and Gohda hide in Natsuhi's room. With a key, they can't keep the door unlocked, and the second she gets the door open she (who could be Beatrice or Shannon at the moment) slams a stake into his chest. She goes inside, George pleas for his life, saying that he loves her, but his "I love you" is cut off as she kills him. She then locks the door and commits suicide with a stake. This coincides better with the fantasy scene. I understand some people think it's impossible to kill with stakes, but stabbing through a heart (assuming you miss the ribs) and a stomach isn't that hard; it's conceivable that she killed herself with one too, as it wasn't even gouged in.

Seventh and Eighth twilights, I just can't get any footing on.
Similar to Battler's logic in Episode one, where "Nanjo, Kumasawa, Maria, Genji" place the letter, it makes no sense because "placing the letter is the same as admitting to be the culprit". Why would the servants tell a story where Kumasawa and Nanjo were murdered in just where they happened to be at the time? It does nothing but lay suspicion on themselves. If Gohda, Shannon, and Genji killed the three together, I don't see why Gohda AND Shannon would die in the 4th/5th/6th twilights.

9th twilight is simpler, they sit around or try to escape, but they all get killed in an explosion anyway.

So, I'm just asking for more insight on this, help with filling in holes and any criticism on contradicted reds or just lack of sense. What really happened in Turn of the Golden Witch?

AuraTwilight

2011-01-25, 17:24

For the first twilight, I've found that it works if the 7 adults solve the epitaph, and find Yasutrice and the gold.They bring up some gold (as "their share", or collateral or something), and Yasu kills six of them. Rosa is chosen to "Stay alive" for no particular reason, or maybe because she's the youngest. Alternatively, the six older adults solve the epitaph, die by Yasu, and somehow get Rosa to come to the chapel (perhaps by a sealed letter?), where Rosa becomes convinced the Beatrice she killed has revived and as such follows her every command to the letter.
The "chapel door was never locked" solution seems to fit well.

Then what's with everyone in the chapel "acknowledging" Beatrice? Surely it's not because she showed them magic; if so, we'd have seen magic tricks like in every other fantasy. The implication is that this scene actually happened, and thus we are not shown the mundane means of how she convinced them. Thus, the gold bars. Beatrice has solved the Epitaph, we know that. She shows them money, and they go "alright, you're Beatrice."

For the second twilight, it's slightly harder to solve. But, at least for this episode, I like to think the fantasy scenes have a lot of meaning. Kanon is comforting Jessica, when Jessica says something along the lines of how she's going to kill whoever killed her parents, or how she hates whoever did it. Kanon tries to convince himself he's not the culprit, but he knows it was partially him who killed them last night. He becomes angry/crazy/enraged, kills Jessica (probably not as Kanon), and, without someone to love "dies"

This might work in the EP6 days, but EP7 pretty heavily implies that Yasu does not possess multiple personality syndrome, and going crazy is sort of a lazy motive excuse.

The forth, fifth, sixth, twilight confuse me. But, what I've come up with is something like:
Shannon and George want to sleep together the same night they get engaged, or perhaps just spend the night together when they find out they might die by morning. They decide they'd best find a room, so they go all the way to the chapel to find Natsuhi's key. (They don't want to go to the guesthouse, they don't want to go to Jessica's room, they choose between Natsuhi's/Krauss' at random) This explanation is kinda bad, but I don't see any other reason why they'd go to Natsuhi's room. There, they begin a moment of intimacy when Shannon reveals her messed up genitals. George tries to explain he loves her anyway, but probably says something like "even if we can't have children, I'll still love you". This corresponds to the scene where Beatrice tells Shannon that George only wants her for her flesh, out of his lust, and Shannon also goes crazy/insane/angry at her loveless body. She kills George, than kills herself out of grief.

So uh...was Gohda there to watch, or what? Sounds kinky.

Seventh and Eighth twilights, I just can't get any footing on.
Similar to Battler's logic in Episode one, where "Nanjo, Kumasawa, Maria, Genji" place the letter, it makes no sense because "placing the letter is the same as admitting to be the culprit". Why would the servants tell a story where Kumasawa and Nanjo were murdered in just where they happened to be at the time? It does nothing but lay suspicion on themselves. If Gohda, Shannon, and Genji killed the three together, I don't see why Gohda AND Shannon would die in the 4th/5th/6th twilights.

Note, however, that the bodies move, and are marked as Twilights LATER. Every other time bodies have been moved, it's meant that the characters are actually alive. Nanjo and Kumasawa were not actually dead.

This of course all ties into an idea supported by EP5 and practically confessed in EP6; the First Twilight seems to always be faked for some sort of murder mystery game, and then apparently someone kills them later if they're not just faking by the time Battler and co. come up. This might continue with other Twilights; there's a murder mystery script that's intended to be harmless, but someone's using it for sinister purposes.

Klarth

2011-01-25, 17:34

Then what's with everyone in the chapel "acknowledging" Beatrice? Surely it's not because she showed them magic; if so, we'd have seen magic tricks like in every other fantasy. The implication is that this scene actually happened, and thus we are not shown the mundane means of how she convinced them. Thus, the gold bars. Beatrice has solved the Epitaph, we know that. She shows them money, and they go "alright, you're Beatrice."

I understand that; Of course they'd acknowledge her if they went to the room with the gold and then she was already there, sitting there like a princess.

The problem with this episode is there's some troubling red, mainly:The six people were already dead by the time they were discovered! All were killed by other people! All six were genuine victims, and did not take part in a mutual murder! There was no simultaneous murder!!
Which seems to exclude the possibility of faked murders. Regardless of the time-shenanigans that allows the faking of Ep1,2, and 4, "The time they were discovered" is pretty well known.
Were they faking at first, and then killed?

Note, however, that the bodies move, and are marked as Twilights LATER. Every other time bodies have been moved, it's meant that the characters are actually alive. Nanjo and Kumasawa were not actually dead.

The seventh/eighth twilight murders themselves I'm not so worried about; but, the question is, WHY did the servants make up that story? For a murder mystery plot?
Did Yasu just tell the servants and Rosa to go along with the story so that Battler will solve the epitaph or remember his sin?

zibbazabba905

2011-01-25, 17:47

I could have sworn in episode 2 all the adults INCLUDING Rosa acknowledge Beatrice. Throughout the rest of the episode, nothing is ever said of it again. Back then I was figuring that it was an error, but now I think in the 2nd game, Rosa found the gold first, and became the family's murderer for that game, siding with shkanyacleotrice

AuraTwilight

2011-01-25, 19:17

Were they faking at first, and then killed?

Yea, probably. Notice how in the First Twilight, the victims are almost always in comfortable rooms and positions? This was an enormous hint that EP6 came and put right out in the open. Even if they're murdered later, at first they're faking.

The seventh/eighth twilight murders themselves I'm not so worried about; but, the question is, WHY did the servants make up that story? For a murder mystery plot?
Did Yasu just tell the servants and Rosa to go along with the story so that Battler will solve the epitaph or remember his sin?

Yes.

I could have sworn in episode 2 all the adults INCLUDING Rosa acknowledge Beatrice

Rosa never acknowledged Beatrice in that episode.

Klarth

2011-01-25, 20:36

Even if they're murdered later, at first they're faking.

But I don't see how that fits for this Episode. They were dead at the time of discovery. From the time they died, who could've seen the fake-dead bodies? Why kill them again later, in those few short hours?

Leafsnail

2011-01-25, 20:55

Rosa never acknowledged Beatrice in that episode.
True, that's what the end scroll says. But in the fantasy scene...
http://i937.photobucket.com/albums/ad211/Leafsnail/FantasysceneRosa.gif
In fact, it's Kyrie who holds out longest and gives in reluctantly (probably because Yasu expects Kyrie to be the hardest to convince and most likely to think about it carefully before accepting, or something).

Oh, for "murdered then killed before discovery": it explains how one person can take on 6 people with a gun that only fires 5 bullets and without anyone escaping or putting up a fight. Episode 1 implies they're dead from the start anyway, since they're stacked up carelessly in the shed rather than in comfortable locations, although it's implied they were in the dining room before.

AuraTwilight

2011-01-25, 20:55

Midnight: Faking begins.

3 AM: Murderer X (Let's say it's Rosa for sake of argument) comes in and kills them.

10 AM: Everyone comes in and discovers the dead bodies.

It's worth noting here that in the context of Umineko, "discovered" usually means when the Detective (Battler in this case) finds the body, or when the bodies are first shown to us, the readers. The murderer finding the fakers probably wouldn't count.

@Leafsnail: Well she changed her mind lol

Leafsnail

2011-01-25, 20:59

Heh, I suppose. Probably something to do with her playing the detective role in that episode or something (she agrees to play the game, and thus accepts Beatrice as gamemaster, but her role in the game is to deny the witch).

zibbazabba905

2011-01-25, 22:10

True, that's what the end scroll says. But in the fantasy scene...
http://i937.photobucket.com/albums/ad211/Leafsnail/FantasysceneRosa.gif
Thank you! I was thinking I was starting to make things up... and I don't have the first half installed on this comp to look it up, but I did find this
It's also in the anime!
http://i56.tinypic.com/30rqjr7.png

Kylon99

2011-01-25, 22:39

Rosa was most certainly at the church with the other siblings. Around mid-afternoon she was recruited to act as the 'Key' as in the Epitaph. Which is essentially a guide for Battler.

The idea of the Key came from the idea that the people playing at the Epitaph would be trying to stick closer to it and not discard any parts of it, even if it was originally a word puzzle. And so, it seemed to fit with different people being selected to be the Key. Natsuhi in EP1, Rosa in EP2, Eva in EP3 and possibly Kyrie in EP4 if the game wasn't disturbed. Notice the 3 stick close to Battler in their own respective episodes, until the end when they figure out everything's gone bad.

Also:
That would tie in well with something bizarre Beato said to Rosa in EP2 when she handed over her first letter. I don't remember the exact text, but it was along the lines of: "Any of the siblings would have been fine, but it looks like you were chosen by the roulette this time." That was the letter we never found out the contents of, if I recall...

I put together the Epitaph Game Theory from some time after EP6... it's in my signature link. It doesn't contain spoilers for EP8.

Kirroha

2011-01-26, 04:27

I still don't get how anyone could've gone "Oh, okay, I'll die as you wish because of your money" just because Yasu showed them the gold. What's the point of the gold if they're going to die?

The only explanation I can find is that Yasu just left a huge plot hole and merely wrote into the message bottles that they had accepted.

Leafsnail

2011-01-26, 11:27

AuraTwilight

2011-01-26, 16:44

Kylon99

2011-01-26, 17:21

Yes, exactly. They were atleast lead to believethat they were pretending to die, like at those parties where everyone participates in a mystery game roleplay, except the cousins were left out of the loop. Apparently the adults and servants were all in on it.

Whether Yasu betrayed them (unlikely) or someone else made the murders real, I can't say.

You know, I wonder if the cousins really were left out of the loop. Battler doesn't count since the games are directed at him, specifically. So for the rest:

Maria: She may not have been told to fake, except for maybe in EP6. But at the least she seems to be handled by telling her that the Golden Land and magic is real, "so you have to do this!"

George: Seems to already be some kind of part-time handler for the game for Maria. At least with the roses.

Jessica: She seems to be the real question in my mind... just how much does she know? Like Kinzo's death and the other stuff. I find it interesting that all the way up to EP7 there's never been an explanation of how much she found out when it was very explicitly shown for everyone else who lives on the island.

It really is quite funny, because ultimately almost everyone ends up being in on the joke except Battler. 8)

zibbazabba905

2011-01-26, 18:09

It's probably already been said before (I'm prolly not the first one to think of it) but I think Kanon is Jessica's imaginary boyfriend/servant, made up between shkayaclaleotrice and her (the whole taking two to create a universe thing) so I think she and shkayaclaleotrice are closer than you think

AuraTwilight

2011-01-26, 18:32

Except when George goes to see Shannon and propose to her, the cousins are pretty much never separated 'round the clock until the murders start. There's really no oppurtunity to tell them without tipping off Battler, and George has an oppurtunity but the narrative is pretty insistent that it was just the marriage proposal. I can imagine Jessica and George were left in the dark so they could also try and solve it and "win the roulette."

It's probably already been said before (I'm prolly not the first one to think of it) but I think Kanon is Jessica's imaginary boyfriend/servant, made up between shkayaclaleotrice and her (the whole taking two to create a universe thing) so I think she and shkayaclaleotrice are closer than you think

Doubt it. Kanon was created to satisfy Shannon's universe. Whether or not he was repurposed by an aware Jessica, I don't know, but it doesn't seem consistent with Kanon's reluctance.

Kylon99

2011-01-26, 18:48

Except when George goes to see Shannon and propose to her, the cousins are pretty much never separated 'round the clock until the murders start. There's really no oppurtunity to tell them without tipping off Battler, and George has an oppurtunity but the narrative is pretty insistent that it was just the marriage proposal. I can imagine Jessica and George were left in the dark so they could also try and solve it and "win the roulette."

Hmmm... that's right, they may have been given a chance to win, as EP4 seems to show us.

It's just George seems to have been let in on some part of the plan due to his action with the rose and Maria. Since it happens over 3 out of the 4 episodes it's most likely a pre-arranged plan. Though this doesn't say how much he knows about the rest of the plan.

Judoh

2011-01-26, 18:58

Hmmm... that's right, they may have been given a chance to win, as EP4 seems to show us.

It's just George seems to have been let in on some part of the plan due to his action with the rose and Maria. Since it happens over 3 out of the 4 episodes it's most likely a pre-arranged plan. Though this doesn't say how much he knows about the rest of the plan.

Well in ep1 George helps Nanjo carry Kanon to the servants room. There they end up lying by telling Jessica he died. And we know Kanon's faking right? So even if he didn't know from the beginning he's involved enough that it wouldn't be hard for him to figure it out.

AuraTwilight

2011-01-26, 19:12

And there's always the lovely idea that George is the murderer.

Leafsnail

2011-01-26, 19:21

Not sure how that works for episodes 1 and 2. They're written by Yasu, so... why would she be writing a strange story in which George murders everyone? I just assumed she made herself the culprit for the first two.

Kylon99

2011-01-26, 20:24

Well in ep1 George helps Nanjo carry Kanon to the servants room. There they end up lying by telling Jessica he died. And we know Kanon's faking right? So even if he didn't know from the beginning he's involved enough that it wouldn't be hard for him to figure it out.

Hey, wasn't that the scene where in the game, Jessica, George AND Nanjo was with Kanon when he... "died" but in the anime it was just Jessica and Nanjo? Or do I have that backwards.

Of course, I'd think the game situation trumps the anime... 8)

And there's always the lovely idea that George is the murderer.

I think we're all dancing around this, not wanting to say it outright. Just one look at Judoh's list makes him extremely suspicious, but I still can't put together the method he used if he did commit any crimes.

Not sure how that works for episodes 1 and 2. They're written by Yasu, so... why would she be writing a strange story in which George murders everyone? I just assumed she made herself the culprit for the first two.

George's actions seem very hidden. What I would think is that Yasu is trying to tell Battler this, in addition to his broken promise, etc, etc. Since George is very jealous of Battler as seen in EP7, I would assume the two are very related.

Maybe.

It's funny that recently (prior to EP8 being released; this is what I found before I played it) there were nicovideos where whenever George came on screen the comments would just start screaming, "Shaddup, culprit!" ... heh.

EDIT: Oh and there is the idea from way back when that Beatrice was making herself look like the culprit in order to protect someone else...

AuraTwilight

2011-01-26, 20:51

I think we're all dancing around this, not wanting to say it outright. Just one look at Judoh's list makes him extremely suspicious, but I still can't put together the method he used if he did commit any crimes.

It's really not that difficult. Once you get him out of Battler's viewpoint anything goes, it's just they're almost always together. Therefore he had an accomplice to carry out his orders that he threatened. Perhaps, "I'm by Battler's side at all times, and he won't see it coming. Do what I say, exactly as I tell you, or I kill Battler."

Vampe

2011-01-27, 05:40

It's really not that difficult. Once you get him out of Battler's viewpoint anything goes, it's just they're almost always together. Therefore he had an accomplice to carry out his orders that he threatened. Perhaps, "I'm by Battler's side at all times, and he won't see it coming. Do what I say, exactly as I tell you, or I kill Battler."

hmm if the accomplice being thretened is Rudolf, or maybe Kyrie, perhaps both, then that theory sounds strangly possible :S those 2 are the only ones i can imagine killing to protect Battler. (don't belive a word that ep 7 says about Kyrie not thinking of Battler as a son. But if i get to see red proof of it i might have to yield on that one.)

maximilianjenus

2011-01-27, 11:11

So, we are back to the rule X a random adult will kill, stuff ?

I will continue on talking about kanon's death, IIRc the red text states that kanon die in jesica's room, but a time of death is not even implyed, so let's say kanon stops being a factor after jessica dies, but let's not decalre him dead because a dead personality is lame, once more time passes george, gohda and shannon go to jessica's room for a reason, then shannon/yasu is killed there, thus kanon dies in jessica's room is complied with without resorting to lame personality tricks; that gives goerge and gohda a good reason to go to natsuhi's room, that is to hide shannon's body.

Leafsnail

2011-01-27, 14:20

It seems a bit late to be suspecting random George culprit. I mean, especially after we've already been told who the culprit is...

And I don't think Kanon has anything to do with personality tricks. The guy just doesn't exist.

AuraTwilight

2011-01-27, 14:56

hmm if the accomplice being thretened is Rudolf, or maybe Kyrie, perhaps both, then that theory sounds strangly possible :S those 2 are the only ones i can imagine killing to protect Battler.

Or Yasu. "Gonna pick Battler after I proposed to you, HUH?"

It seems a bit late to be suspecting random George culprit. I mean, especially after we've already been told who the culprit is...

And I don't think Kanon has anything to do with personality tricks. The guy just doesn't exist.

No just no.

Mikachiru

2011-01-27, 17:29

George as a culprit is an amazing theory. Seriously, props to Judoh for the awesome breakdown in his/her sig.

I actually like the George is teh culprit theory. Makes me wanna pretend I never read the EP 8 spoilers and think this is the real answer to everything... XD

AuraTwilight

2011-01-27, 17:41

Who says it's not the answer to everything? EP8 doesn't really deny it.

Leafsnail

2011-01-27, 18:11

Sure, but... we've been told who the culprit is. And I'm not sure what about George is meant to make him the culprit, except the fact that most of the fanbase dislikes him. I mean... yes, the Tea Party clearly isn't the whole truth, but why is it hard to accept that the person with a murderous capacity for envy, a soul tormented by 18 years in "hell" and a sudden revelation that all her suffering was caused by other people is the culprit?

AuraTwilight

2011-01-27, 18:42

Sure, but... we've been told who the culprit is.

No, we haven't. We've been told who Bern thinks is the culprit, but her theory is full of plotholes and isn't even supported by a complete red.

I mean... yes, the Tea Party clearly isn't the whole truth, but why is it hard to accept that the person with a murderous capacity for envy, a soul tormented by 18 years in "hell" and a sudden revelation that all her suffering was caused by other people is the culprit?

Because she dies in the First Twilight literally half the time and doesn't live much longer,and there's absolutely no meaningful foreshadowing of her being a culprit. Not to mention that the scenario Bern presented is full of plotholes that are irreconcilable with the few facts we do have.

TW25

2011-01-27, 18:52

Judoh

2011-01-27, 19:17

AuraTwilight

2011-01-27, 21:03

Bernkastel only showed Kyrie as the culprit of the real world. A world that doesn't follow the rules of the mystery genre (obviously).

She proposed that was the truth of the human world, not that it was the solution to the mystery genre game that we have been playing.

(Hey everyone, would it be alright for me to jump into discussing EP7 with you guys?)

Go ahead. Though technically Bern never says she's showing the real world. How could she, anyway? She doesn't know what happened; she's presenting the theory she constructed pretty much by her own admission. The Red Truth she makes isn't even valid since it wasn't completed. Battler tried that and it didn't work.

TW25

2011-01-27, 21:21

Of course. My main point was just that the EP7 Tea Party was labeled as a "world without a Game Master" which essentially makes it useless for establishing the culprit of the mystery.

AuraTwilight

2011-01-27, 21:46

Bernkastel never said that in red, and when taking the board from the sleeping Featherine, remarks, "I never even got to do any Gamemastering, I just ripped out the guts and conducted a funeral."

From Bernkastel's point of view, she was never a Gamemaster, even though we know for a fact she was a Gamemaster for the main part of EP7. Therefore, I don't really trust her word whatsoever when she denies it in the Tea Party.

Player

2011-02-03, 01:58

I have been hearing this theory/reasoning that no-one seems to be able to explain, so I figured I'd ask here. I've been hearing that Kinzo's story is, basically, fake. Are there any indications of this, or is it a known theory? If so, could anyone explain, because I re-read through the whole thing many times (it just so happens to be one of my favorite moments of EP7 and Umineko in general) and I am still clueless. o.0

AuraTwilight

2011-02-03, 02:10

Er...the Tea Party. Bern cuts open Clair's guts. We get a flashback where someone yells at Kinzo for wanting to steal the gold, which directly contradicts what Kinzo himself told Will. Figure it out.

Player

2011-02-03, 02:14

Er...the Tea Party. Bern cuts open Clair's guts. We get a flashback where someone yells at Kinzo for wanting to steal the gold, which directly contradicts what Kinzo himself told Will. Figure it out.

Huh... I'd completely forgotten about that. I'd thought it had been a scene I'd accidentally skimmed through or something (has happened before), so I hadn't paid much attention to it. Either way, thanks for clearing it up. ^^'

winter 923

2011-02-03, 08:04

The problem i have with that is that the "power of theathergoing" is changing to a "blindly believe anything anyone says as long as i can touch them"...that creepy Will. If Kinzo just lied then Maria's and Jessica's interview aren't worth anything either.

I don't remember the wording but even with all the italians dead (except Beato) keeping the gold is still stealing it from italy away. So a guess would be that young-Genji is scolding young-Kinzo for trying to pull something big as stealing tons of gold from the italians (italy)

musouka

2011-02-03, 11:55

Er...the Tea Party. Bern cuts open Clair's guts. We get a flashback where someone yells at Kinzo for wanting to steal the gold, which directly contradicts what Kinzo himself told Will. Figure it out.

It doesn't directly contradict what he told Will. It could only mean he was the one that put the idea into his superior's head and things spiraled from there.

maximilianjenus

2011-02-03, 14:56

which would eplxain why he conveniently dodged the fight; good theory

Jan-Poo

2011-02-03, 15:00

There is also that theory that Kinzo sabotaged the grenade so it wouldn't blow off.
If it did, all the Italian soldiers would have died and there wouldn't have been any gun fight. What woould have happened to Beatrice then? I suppose nothing good, since she knew about the gold and she would know what the Japanese did there.

It was really a "miracle".

AuraTwilight

2011-02-03, 15:35

It doesn't directly contradict what he told Will. It could only mean he was the one that put the idea into his superior's head and things spiraled from there.

Well, YEA, it does, because in the narrative as Kinzo told, Kinzo was against the idea. It's a small detail but it's still contradictory. Yamamoto is being portrayed as either rational and conscientious, or no better than a mobster thug.

which would eplxain why he conveniently dodged the fight; good theory

There's also the possibility, to play advocate and salvage Kinzo's innocence here, that his survival was just luck, like Beatrice did.

delita-umw-

2011-02-03, 15:41

How many grenades do you think are likely to have been on the base? It's an understocked base, so I can't imagine there are tons of grenades, but the mere presence of one suggests there are more, cause having an entire base with one grenade...just seems silly to me. If Kinzo really sabotaged the grenade, it suggests he also must have had a pretty big hand in the planning of the attack on the Italians.

musouka

2011-02-03, 16:29

Well, YEA, it does, because in the narrative as Kinzo told, Kinzo was against the idea. It's a small detail but it's still contradictory. Yamamoto is being portrayed as either rational and conscientious, or no better than a mobster thug.

I meant that it didn't mean the entire flashback was a lie. I can see a manipulative Kinzo, but I also think that ultimately it ended in a suggestion that Yamamoto eventually decided to capitalize on after thinking it over. Kinzo might have beautified his involvement, but I honestly do believe three things. One, the encounter did change his life and make him want to live. Two, he wasn't some nutjob mowing down soldiers and carrying off the girl, even if he did play things to his advantage his life was at risk. Three, he and Bice forged a genuine connection and did have a few relatively happy years together.

All three of those things are just my delusions, naturally, but I liked Kinzo as he was presented in EP7 and there's no reason to waste the time telling the tale if the entire thing as presented is a lie. Yamamoto was better than Kinzo presented him as, Kinzo was worse than he presented himself as. Those things are fine with me. Just not the entire character arc being a lie.

AuraTwilight

2011-02-03, 17:57

I meant that it didn't mean the entire flashback was a lie.

No one ever proposed that, though. If even one part of the story contradicts what really happened, though, then it still means "Kinzo's flashback is a fantasy."

Otherwise I entirely agree with you. It's also possible, though, that the red guts don't represent some objective truth but Beatrice's ugly opinions. Hell, the third one ("Furniture") is LITERALLY about the development of a delusion. Yasu wasn't even fucking there, how would she know what happened better than Kinzo? It's not like she has magical powers. Why is the Objective Truth inside a person's guts, anyway?

TW25

2011-02-03, 18:05

If Kinzo just lied then Maria's and Jessica's interview aren't worth anything either.

That's not true.

Just because Kinzo lied about one, or even a few, details doesn't meant that you can throw out his entire story. And Jessica and Maria's stories are completely unrelated. Just because Kinzo lied doesn't mean that they did as well.

Also I don't think anyone ever gave a clear definition to Theatergoer's Authority. Did anyone ever claim that it made people tell the complete truth? I think its effect on the pieces was left ambiguous for a reason.

AuraTwilight

2011-02-03, 18:12

Also I don't think anyone ever gave a clear definition to Theatergoer's Authority. Did anyone ever claim that it made people tell the complete truth?

No. The only effects it seems to give is allowing people to break the 4th wall so they can testify. Jessica and Maria are able to recall stuff about Beatrice in a world where there is no Beatrice.

FirstTwilight

2011-02-03, 18:24

It's not like she has magical powers. Why is the Objective Truth inside a person's guts, anyway?

Doesn't Meta-Beato know everything about everyone on the island? I mean, she knew about Battler's birth...

I suppose we can guess she had someone investigating, but it doesn't have much support and i can't think a reason she would start to look into something like that, or how someone would find about it.

AuraTwilight

2011-02-03, 18:29

Doesn't Meta-Beato know everything about everyone on the island? I mean, she knew about Battler's birth...

Yasu is the secret head of the family. If Krauss can do backround checks, so can she.

I suppose we can guess she had someone investigating, but it doesn't have much support and i can't think a reason she would start to look into something like that, or how someone would find about it.

"Hey Rudolf, I have all this gold here. I suggest to do what I say and tell me any secrets you might have. I heard you mention something about wanting to talk to Battler and Kyrie about a terrible secret? Spill it."

Judoh

2011-02-03, 18:41

Doesn't Meta-Beato know everything about everyone on the island? I mean, she knew about Battler's birth...

This is in episode 4 though so it's more like the Meta Beato in Hachijou's forgeries knew about Battler's birth. So I'd say some creative witch hunters were able to find out through some rough detective work and hachijou put the information in her stories. Yasu doesn't have to know this at all.

FirstTwilight

2011-02-03, 18:52

Yasu is the secret head of the family. If Krauss can do backround checks, so can she.

I didn't consider that.

"Hey Rudolf, I have all this gold here. I suggest to do what I say and tell me any secrets you might have. I heard you mention something about wanting to talk to Battler and Kyrie about a terrible secret? Spill it."

But i really can't see Yasu doing something like this. And when would she ask about it? The year before? I doubt she'd want to reveal herself.

This is in episode 4 though so it's more like the Meta Beato in Hachijou's forgeries knew about Battler's birth. So I'd say some creative witch hunters were able to find out through some rough detective work and hachijou put the information in her stories. Yasu doesn't have to know this at all.

But Rudolf's secret is mentioned for the first time in Ep. 1.

http://i52.tinypic.com/1191jzd.jpg

Judoh

2011-02-03, 19:01

But Rudolf's secret is mentioned for the first time in Ep. 1.

And she didn't know what it was obviously or she would have answered what it was. She just knew he had one.

Chron

2011-02-03, 19:08

No one ever proposed that, though. If even one part of the story contradicts what really happened, though, then it still means "Kinzo's flashback is a fantasy."

Otherwise I entirely agree with you. It's also possible, though, that the red guts don't represent some objective truth but Beatrice's ugly opinions. Hell, the third one ("Furniture") is LITERALLY about the development of a delusion. Yasu wasn't even fucking there, how would she know what happened better than Kinzo? It's not like she has magical powers. Why is the Objective Truth inside a person's guts, anyway?

Genetic Memory maybe?

Bern's scythe is really a magical, handheld version of the Animus machine?

AuraTwilight

2011-02-03, 19:14

But i really can't see Yasu doing something like this. And when would she ask about it? The year before? I doubt she'd want to reveal herself.

It's heavily implied that the First Twilight in all games is initially faked. Yasu seems to be organizing a murder mystery game to try and get Battler to solve it and thus remember her. It's part of her whole roulette thing (The actual murders would be done by someone else, taking advantage of the situation). So it's a matter of Yasu buying Rudolf's compliance with the gold and expressing curiousity in Rudolf's secrets.

Remember Episode 2, where the adults in the church said they recognized Beatrice? It certainly wasn't a fantasy scene; if Beatrice used magic we would've been shown; but we DIDN'T see what she showed them as proof. The three ingots on the table were probably used as demonstration that she was the true Head, and thus gained their compliance since her money could solve all their problems.

FirstTwilight

2011-02-03, 19:27

It's heavily implied that the First Twilight in all games is initially faked. .

Is it? I don't think there is anything fake in Ep. 1-2.
Actually, i don't believe in the Fake Murder Theory. :P

Anyway, i doubt she wrote those stories the same day she was planning her roulette... or course we really don't know the content of the forgeries and if Meta-Beato is following them precisely, so it's kinda moot, i guess.

Leafsnail

2011-02-03, 19:50

Is it? I don't think there is anything fake in Ep. 1-2.
Actually, i don't believe in the Fake Murder Theory. :P

Episode 6 would like a word with you.

AuraTwilight

2011-02-03, 19:55

Is it? I don't think there is anything fake in Ep. 1-2.
Actually, i don't believe in the Fake Murder Theory. :P

You need to pay better attention then.

Anyway, i doubt she wrote those stories the same day she was planning her roulette... or course we really don't know the content of the forgeries and if Meta-Beato is following them precisely, so it's kinda moot, i guess.

She probably wrote them beforehand. The stories exist to cover up the truth so that people can solve them, and thus understand Beato. They don't share the same purpose of the actual incident presented to Battler.

Kirroha

2011-02-03, 21:40

The more I re-read this episode, the more I go all T_T as I think just how Yasu is full of love. And magic. And love.

All those message bottles she wrote with herself as the culprit because of how much she loved the Ushiromiya family members.

She's truly the best head the Ushiromiya family can have.

AuraTwilight

2011-02-04, 01:53

She really is sort of a lovely person, and I wish I could've met her and told her she was beautiful; that her soul made up for whatever she thought was wrong with her body.

Sherringford

2011-02-04, 02:16

Personally I still think Yasu is just craaaaaaaazy.

AuraTwilight

2011-02-04, 03:18

no love, bro.

Kylon99

2011-02-04, 04:25

Sometimes... crazy can be... beautiful. :3

unsuspectingvisitor

2011-02-04, 04:34

maybe she just did the closed room not the murder

Kylon99

2011-02-04, 04:38

Well, that's what the faking of the deaths is all about. That's one of the easiest ways to get closed room... 'murders.' Especially where people are all lying down comfortably.

By the way, just to clarify for the previous page of discussion, the faking isn't the end of the story. It's likely that because of the faking the victims were much easier targets for whoever it was that actually killed them. Also, the faking continues on for other twilights, until people figure out something is very wrong, of course. In addition if the faking of the twilight follows the Epitaph, then there must be a key who chooses the first six and guides Battler around. 8) Etc, etc.

unsuspectingvisitor

2011-02-04, 04:56

Kirroha

2011-02-04, 06:48

Personally I still think Yasu is just craaaaaaaazy.

Methinks you have no love. D:

FirstTwilight

2011-02-04, 07:39

Episode 6 would like a word with you.

I'm sorry, i was too busy reading Episode 7 where she said like many, many times why she was going to follow the roulette.

Ep VI is just Battler being soft and he didn't want to reveal the truth.

But yeah, i'm sure it's all a giant Red herring.
Just like Shkanon in VI.

You need to pay better attention then.

There is nothing pointing at fake murders in Ep 1-2, sorry.
Why didn't Yasu notice anything? Or why did she continue to do fake murders then? Because i'm pretty sure everyone would notice these candies in Natsuhi's stomach aren't fake.
Why did Yasu kill people for real later?
How did the "real killer" evade the Red Text?

Will SOLVED these episodes using Yasu as the culprit. Geez, Clair was happy someone finally understood her. Turns out, Will didn't understand shit! Good job, Will.

Kirroha

2011-02-04, 09:31

But yeah, i'm sure it's all a giant Red herring.
Just like Shkanon in VI.

Shkanon being a red herring? That's like basically confirmed in Ep7.

There is nothing pointing at fake murders in Ep 1-2, sorry.
Why didn't Yasu notice anything? Or why did she continue to do fake murders then? Because i'm pretty sure everyone would notice these candies in Natsuhi's stomach aren't fake.
Why did Yasu kill people for real later?
How did the "real killer" evade the Red Text?

Will SOLVED these episodes using Yasu as the culprit. Geez, Clair was happy someone finally understood her. Turns out, Will didn't understand shit! Good job, Will.

Because those episodes aren't real. They were message bottles thrown into the sea. This is why those murders are considered fake, because they never occurred in reality. And they had Clair as the culprit, so yes he understood her and her mystery perfectly.

But in reality, what Clair did was to use those message bottles to hide the truth of Rokkenjima Prime. Will understood that too.

And you say you've read Ep7?

FirstTwilight

2011-02-04, 09:44

Shkanon being a red herring? That's like basically confirmed in Ep7.

I was joking, it was a reference to a lot of people calling Shkanon fake and a "silly red herring" after Ep. VI release.

Because those episodes aren't real. They were message bottles thrown into the sea. This is why those murders are considered fake, because they never occurred in reality. And they had Clair as the culprit, so yes he understood her and her mystery perfectly.

But in reality, what Clair did was to use those message bottles to hide the truth of Rokkenjima Prime. Will understood that too.

And you say you've read Ep7?

We are talking about two different things.
We were talking about "fake" First Twilights. She definitely "killed" people inside the stories. She's the culprit of the stories/fragments/whatever. Of course she didn't technically kill anyone on Rokkenjima-Prime.

maximilianjenus

2011-02-04, 10:47

You are talking about rokkenjima prime so your theory explains a different mistery than mine, I have never liked that theory.

Yasu is the secret head of the family. If Krauss can do backround checks, so can she.

"Hey Rudolf, I have all this gold here. I suggest to do what I say and tell me any secrets you might have. I heard you mention something about wanting to talk to Battler and Kyrie about a terrible secret? Spill it."

But was it confirmed that yasu knew about batler's birth secret ? when I read that I understood it as beatrice thinking that battler was a fake batler.

I am very annoyed of nto reading a single joke on "the culprit is a lion".

Leafsnail

2011-02-04, 12:41

Well, the "other Battler" would probably be Asumu's child who died of cot death. That'd make sense and would explain the awkward wording of Beatrice's red ("It was from Ushiroymiya Asumu that Ushiromiya Battler was born" does not imply that the other Battler is still alive, while something like "Asumu is Battler's mother" would).

I'm sorry, i was too busy reading Episode 7 where she said like many, many times why she was going to follow the roulette.

Ep VI is just Battler being soft and he didn't want to reveal the truth.

But yeah, i'm sure it's all a giant Red herring.
Just like Shkanon in VI.
I don't see what you're saying. Episode 6 gives us the way in which the murders are performed - by making people fake then rekilling them. I don't see why we should doubt this.

There is nothing pointing at fake murders in Ep 1-2, sorry.
All of the survivors have alibis! Let us include the dead as well!! In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!

And then there's the blood in the dining room episode 1, which seems to imply they were killed there then moved. And there must've been some kind of conspiracy in place to help fake Shannon's death.

Why didn't Yasu notice anything? Or why did she continue to do fake murders then? Because i'm pretty sure everyone would notice these candies in Natsuhi's stomach aren't fake.
No need for her to do so. Most of the later twilights do not require rekilling, while taking on six healthy adults probably would.

Why did Yasu kill people for real later?
Difficult to say. I'd say ep1 because she thinks Natsuhi is the culprit, ep4 because she didn't want Maria to grow up like she did.

How did the "real killer" evade the Red Text?
What red text?

Will SOLVED these episodes using Yasu as the culprit. Geez, Clair was happy someone finally understood her. Turns out, Will didn't understand shit! Good job, Will.
I don't think he said anything about Yasu being the culprit. Heck, ep3 strongly implies Eva due to all the "earth to earths" and "obvious culprits", while ep4 seems to imply Kyrie's golden truth. Ep2 twilights 4, 5 and 6 would also seem to make more sense with Rosa as the culprit.

winter 923

2011-02-04, 12:49

Yasu does know about Battler's birthday that's what the Bank security number says. I don't know if she knows about the secret but there was a meta conversation between Beatrice giving Battler a birthday present because she can't be arround at his Birthday.Just because Kinzo lied about one, or even a few, details doesn't meant that you can throw out his entire story. And Jessica and Maria's stories are completely unrelated. Just because Kinzo lied doesn't mean that they did as well.
The problem i have with that is that he lied while this "theathergoing" was going on. So there is no reason why Maria couldn't just lie about meeting Beatrice. I mean Maria was fooled by whoever played Beatrice but she believed she met her that summer but in Kinzo's case it's a straight lie, he was interested in the gold.

You could argue that the theathergoing doesn't have any power or any more value than someone just talking but then we wouldn't know anything. The whole story could be fake. (The story is fishy anyway and i only believe it because of the theathergoing) Just like Oct. 4 1986 is a closed catbox the same goes for Kinzo's days he met Beatrice. All we know is that Nanjo confirmed that Kinzo appeared with a bleeding girl, hell they could be Bonnie and Clyde.

FirstTwilight

2011-02-04, 13:24

I don't see what you're saying. Episode 6 gives us the way in which the murders are performed - by making people fake then rekilling them. I don't see why we should doubt this.

All of the survivors have alibis! Let us include the dead as well!! In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!

And then there's the blood in the dining room episode 1, which seems to imply they were killed there then moved. And there must've been some kind of conspiracy in place to help fake Shannon's death.

No need for her to do so. Most of the later twilights do not require rekilling, while taking on six healthy adults probably would.

Difficult to say. I'd say ep1 because she thinks Natsuhi is the culprit, ep4 because she didn't want Maria to grow up like she did.

What red text?

The Fake Murders Theory implies that Yasu wanted to create a fake murder mystery for Battler that later got hijacked by the "real" culprit, not that she asked the adults to play dead and then she killed them for real afterward. Because, if they are really dead the moment they are discovered, it's not a "fake" First Twilight.

I don't think he said anything about Yasu being the culprit.

...eh? It was all about Clair, she wanted to be solved.

http://i54.tinypic.com/t82fz8.png

"First game, second twilight. Two corpses are close together in a closed room protected by a chain."
"Illusions to illusions. ..... A chain of illusions can only hold back illusions.

Kanon killed Eva and Hideyoshi and lied about the chain. Genji is an accomplice, of course.

"Second game, second twilight. The corpses of the two who are close are not close."
"Illusions to illusions. .......Illusions who have fulfilled their role do not leave a corpse."

Shannon killed Jessica and then "killed" the Kanon persona.

"Second game, fourth, fifth, and sixth twilights. In Natsuhi's closed room, none are left alive."
"Earth to earth. ......No one would dispute that a coffin is a closed room."

Shannon killed George and Gohda, locked the room and shot herself in the head.

"Third game, first twilight. Six corpses connected by the linked closed rooms."
"Illusions to illusions. .......In a closed room ring, the end and the beginning overlap."

Shkanon shenanigans.

Of course, Ep. III culprit is Eva and Ep. IV culprit is most likely Kyrie, that's why there are no closed rooms and Will doesn't really talk about them.

Witch of Uncertainty

2011-02-04, 14:07

Shkanon shenanigans.

Of course, Ep. III culprit is Eva and Ep. IV culprit is most likely Kyrie, that's why there are no closed rooms and Will doesn't really talk about them.

Hug? How did Kyrie die if she was the culprit. She called Battler, talking about what was happening, and he found her dead, with a stake planted on her. Did her murderer kill her and then her/himself?

Leafsnail

2011-02-04, 14:14

The Fake Murders Theory implies that Yasu wanted to create a fake murder mystery for Battler that later got hijacked by the "real" culprit, not that she asked the adults to play dead and then she killed them for real afterward. Because, if they are really dead the moment they are discovered, it's not a "fake" First Twilight.
It is. Whether the murder is commited before or after discovery is irrelevant - it's still very useful for the killer.

...eh? It was all about Clair, she wanted to be solved.
Doesn't necessarily mean she's the culprit.

Kanon killed Eva and Hideyoshi and lied about the chain. Genji is an accomplice, of course.
An illusion can never create a corpse. It's been established pretty firmly that Kanon is an illusion

Shannon killed Jessica and then "killed" the Kanon persona.
Possibly, I prefer fictional Shannon though. And we pretty much know that Jessica wasn't killed in that bit because lol Jessica is included.

Shannon killed George and Gohda, locked the room and shot herself in the head.
Wow, so you perform funerals by getting the deceased to lock the coffin from the inside then kill themselves?

Shkanon shenanigans.
Yeah.

Of course, Ep. III culprit is Eva and Ep. IV culprit is most likely Kyrie, that's why there are no closed rooms and Will doesn't really talk about them.
Eh, there's one closed room in each one. Although the tips basically tell you how the ep4 one was done. And there is a final mystery in both which Will doesn't address (who killed Nanjo and who died last respectively).

FirstTwilight

2011-02-04, 15:08

It is. Whether the murder is commited before or after discovery is irrelevant - it's still very useful for the killer.

But Yasu doesn't need to do that.

Here, Shkanon served poisoned tea and she and Genji brought everyone to the storehouse. Why would she need to do fake murders!?

Doesn't necessarily mean she's the culprit.

The whole episode was about why and how she did it (in the stories), holy fuck.

An illusion can never create a corpse. It's been established pretty firmly that Kanon is an illusion

So Battler talked to an illusion for all the episode then.
He even grabbed the illusion's collar at some point! Despite that, Kanon can't kill anyone.

He's an illusion because he's just a role Yasu plays, not because he doesn't "exist". Are we really discussing this?

Possibly, I prefer fictional Shannon though. And we pretty much know that Jessica wasn't killed in that bit because lol Jessica is included.

Pretty sure she had a stake in her back.

Wow, so you perform funerals by getting the deceased to lock the coffin from the inside then kill themselves?

The door and the windows were locked from the inside

It's called a "metaphor". Of course, if you don't believe Shkanontrice is the culprit...

Eh, there's one closed room in each one.

Ep. 3 ring of closed rooms and?

And there is a final mystery in both which Will doesn't address (who killed Nanjo

"Yasu".

and who died last respectively

Shkanontrice, it's a simple trick involving a gun, a well and gravity.

Hug? How did Kyrie die if she was the culprit. She called Battler, talking about what was happening, and he found her dead, with a stake planted on her. Did her murderer kill her and then her/himself?

Shkanontrice survived the massacre. She later kills herself near the well.

AuraTwilight

2011-02-04, 16:54

someone pretending to be dead is so unrealistic,whats their goal by doing that? probably there's a person that have large amount of money who order them to play dead in exchange for money and its also possible that "that person" order someone to kill them and ofcourse in exchange of money.
i wonder if it involve yasu and the money card or the GOLD

Everyone needs money. Yasu has money. They'll do whatever the fuck she says once she reveals she has gold.

I'm sorry, i was too busy reading Episode 7 where she said like many, many times why she was going to follow the roulette.

Ep VI is just Battler being soft and he didn't want to reveal the truth.

But yeah, i'm sure it's all a giant Red herring.
Just like Shkanon in VI.

And the roulette is only revealed to represent "dying" in Bern's story, which is full of other kinds of bullshit that I just don't buy a word of it.

Note also that the roulette is used by Yasu in other contexts to refer to whether or not Battler shows up, whether or not someone else will figure out the Epitaph and take the headship she doesn't want, and other such innocuous things.

The First Twilight is also faked in EP5, by the way. We know this because the bodies vanished.

Besides, if you're just going to blame Battler for being a softie, then what's the deal about EP6 "not being a mystery, but a confession"? Is the narrator being soft on us too? Is anything in that episode at all reliable? Come on, dude.

There is nothing pointing at fake murders in Ep 1-2, sorry.
Why didn't Yasu notice anything? Or why did she continue to do fake murders then? Because i'm pretty sure everyone would notice these candies in Natsuhi's stomach aren't fake.
Why did Yasu kill people for real later?
How did the "real killer" evade the Red Text?

Will SOLVED these episodes using Yasu as the culprit. Geez, Clair was happy someone finally understood her. Turns out, Will didn't understand shit! Good job, Will.

Okay, you need to calm down and stop being so hostile.

1) There's more episodes than just the first two, you know.

2) We do have evidence that the First Twilights are faked: Hideyoshi cooperated with Kanon in faking Shannon's death.

3) Yasu may or may not have noticed anything. The murders after the First Twilight don't need to be faked, since the script goes off the rails. There are loads of reasons she would keep quiet. To name a few: lololol roulette, the culprit is someone she loves, the culprit is buying her silence by threatening Battler's life, she really is that stupid. Take your pick.

4) I should clarify: Shannon/Kanon do seem to be the culprits of the fictional games she wrote. This is entirely different from Yasu being the culprit in the real Rokkenjima Prime, since she has continuously shown a very strong motive of taking the blame for SHIT SHE DID NOT DO throughout her entire goddamn life. She has enough strong puppylike affection combined with intense self-loathing that Yasu doesn't take any pressure at all to accept all the blame for someone else's actions. That's why the Beatrice persona exists and challenges Battler.

By the way, Will was never given the task of dissecting the truth of the real Rokkenjima, only "Beatrice's world", the fantasy games she wrote and the sequels inspired by them. So he did "understand shit."

But was it confirmed that yasu knew about batler's birth secret ? when I read that I understood it as beatrice thinking that battler was a fake batler.

Beatrice is Yasu. Beatrice knows that Asumu is not Battler's mother. Therefore Yasu knows that Asumu is not Battler's mother.

The Fake Murders Theory implies that Yasu wanted to create a fake murder mystery for Battler that later got hijacked by the "real" culprit, not that she asked the adults to play dead and then she killed them for real afterward. Because, if they are really dead the moment they are discovered, it's not a "fake" First Twilight.

Have you considered that, in the Games atleast, Yasu's intentions are a mystery game, and then someone hijacks it and kills the six? Many of the other crimes can be explained with someone other than Shannon or Kanon. For those that can't, perhaps they thought they were revenge-killing the culprit. Whether or not they were correct is something else.

Of course, Ep. III culprit is Eva and Ep. IV culprit is most likely Kyrie, that's why there are no closed rooms and Will doesn't really talk about them.

No way in hell Eva is the EP3 culprit. That's such an obvious red herring that I can't respect the intelligence of anyone who thinks so at this point.

But Yasu doesn't need to do that.

Here, Shkanon served poisoned tea and she and Genji brought everyone to the storehouse. Why would she need to do fake murders!?

Because she didn't want to kill anyone.

The whole episode was about why and how she did it (in the stories), holy fuck.

No, it wasn't. It really, really wasn't. It's not even possible for Shannon/Kanon to commit multiple crimes in the stories.

Pretty sure she had a stake in her back.

Since when has being stabbed in the back been fatal? It's not like she's pierced through the heart.

"Yasu".

I'm pretty sure EP3 implies that someone was still alive and then killed Nanjo before dying from their wounds. Battler solves the riddle by bringing up a very important point: Eva-Beatrice made those reds AFTER the murder happened. Timing is key.

Judoh

2011-02-04, 17:17

And we pretty much know that Jessica wasn't killed in that bit because lol Jessica is included.

PLEASE. Let's not get into this debate again. It's been ended since a long time. We have red stating she's a corpse before this.

When Jessica's corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica's room

Plus Battler is the detective, and he CHECKED HER.

`That's wrong!! I had also made sure that Jessica was really dead! Of course, I'd never performed an autopsy before, but she was definitely dead!

`I think she was dead!! No, that's probably surely definitely what I thought but certainly wait......,
...she was dead!! She was dead!!!

Jessica is definitely dead okay? Else we get a liar's paradox.

FirstTwilight

2011-02-04, 18:02

1) There's more episodes than just the first two, you know.

2) We do have evidence that the First Twilights are faked: Hideyoshi cooperated with Kanon in faking Shannon's death.

3) Yasu may or may not have noticed anything. The murders after the First Twilight don't need to be faked, since the script goes off the rails. There are loads of reasons she would keep quiet. To name a few: lololol roulette, the culprit is someone she loves, the culprit is buying her silence by threatening Battler's life, she really is that stupid. Take your pick.

4) I should clarify: Shannon/Kanon do seem to be the culprits of the fictional games she wrote. This is entirely different from Yasu being the culprit in the real Rokkenjima Prime, since she has continuously shown a very strong motive of taking the blame for SHIT SHE DID NOT DO throughout her entire goddamn life. She has enough strong puppylike affection combined with intense self-loathing that Yasu doesn't take any pressure at all to accept all the blame for someone else's actions. That's why the Beatrice persona exists and challenges Battler.

By the way, Will was never given the task of dissecting the truth of the real Rokkenjima, only "Beatrice's world", the fantasy games she wrote and the sequels inspired by them. So he did "understand shit."

Sorry, but i believe only in facts. We are no longer in the question arcs, those are the core arcs. "Maybe Yasu was blackmailed" is a supposition that doesn't have any support.

And it's the seventh episode.

The entire episode was devoted to Clair's confession.
She explain many times why she did it. What lead her to that. Her motivations make sense with her backstory and how she suffered.

Whoddunit, Howdunit and Whydunit. Not "she thought she was doing it, but actually she wasn't doing it. Also she was doing it only in the stories, but she had a completely different objective in reality"

Beato's Heart, the rules of catbox (X, Y, Z) and the characters. Even in fiction, these things have to be consistent with Rokkenjima-Prime. Otherwise the story is a complete mess of inconsistencies where she can write whatever she wants.

"Beato, trapped in your own bird cage.. of fan-fictions of completely made up stuffs and rules that don't even exist in reality"

To me, the story only makes sense if she's trapped in the catbox she created herself on Rokkenjima-Prime, with her roulette.

Of course, i'm not saying she killed people on Rokkenjima-Prime. Someone solved the Epitath and... things happened.

Okay, you need to calm down and stop being so hostile.

I swear, i'm not, that's how i write. :heh: Sorry but eh, it can't be helped. English is also not my first language, so it happens that i choose the wrong words.

And the roulette is only revealed to represent "dying" in Bern's story, which is full of other kinds of bullshit that I just don't buy a word of it.

Do you mean the Tea Party?
First thing, Ange doesn't really give a shit about Beato. So i really can't see Bern chancing her words for her.
Second, Bern mocks Beato because she's a "martyr" that wanted to hide the truth, so i don't see why she would contradict herself in the tea party.
Third, the Tea Party doesn't portray her as someone evil, but.. someone that has give up on everything and will let fate decide. Seems pretty accurate to me.

Besides, if you're just going to blame Battler for being a softie, then what's the deal about EP6 "not being a mystery, but a confession"? Is the narrator being soft on us too? Is anything in that episode at all reliable? Come on, dude.

There was a confession. The entire episode was devoted to Yasu's heart, and how she suffered.

The fake murders were for Erika, they decided to do that because of her annoying rantings about mysteries. Also, Battler didn't want to reveal the truth.
No murders = nothing to investigate.

Since when has being stabbed in the back been fatal? It's not like she's pierced through the heart.

Stabbed in the back by a long stake on a desert island for one day, playing dead.
There is a doctor, but i mean...

Beside, why would she kill George and Gohda but not Jessica?

I'm pretty sure EP3 implies that someone was still alive and then killed Nanjo before dying from their wounds. Battler solves the riddle by bringing up a very important point: Eva-Beatrice made those reds AFTER the murder happened. Timing is key.

Well, Battler has been wrong many times before. Most of his "theories" during Ep. 1-4 were BS.

Anyway, we know "Yasu" was alive. She wrote the numbers on the door.
Now, when Eva-Beatrice started to use the red, Beato immediately realized she was going to use "that". It seems logical to think of Yasu to me, someone that can completely bypass the red.
But whatever, it doesn't really change much if it was a dying Kyrie that wanted to take revenge. She can kill, we know.

I made a mess with the quotes, whoops.

Judoh

2011-02-04, 18:27

Sorry, but i believe only in facts. We are no longer in the question arcs, those are the core arcs. "Maybe Yasu was blackmailed" is a supposition that doesn't have any support.

The fake murders were for Erika, they decided to do that because of her annoying rantings about mysteries. Also, Battler didn't want to reveal the truth.
No murders = nothing to investigate.

To use your own words against you. These are the core arcs. And by episode 6 we're told there are only two possible truths left. The illusion of a closed room and the illusion of the crime. Battler chose the illusion of the crime as his truth. Your theory that he used fake deaths because Erika is in the episode doesn't have hardly anything supporting it either sorry. It's just a theory made to fill in some gaps.

AuraTwilight

2011-02-04, 18:34

Sorry, but i believe only in facts. We are no longer in the question arcs, those are the core arcs. "Maybe Yasu was blackmailed" is a supposition that doesn't have any support.

You're not going to get anywhere with that attitude. We don't even know for sure what the facts are.

The entire episode was devoted to Clair's confession.
She explain many times why she did it. What lead her to that. Her motivations make sense with her backstory and how she suffered.

She never once actually confesses to the crime, except in Bern's Tea Party, which is questionable for all sorts of other reasons.

Whoddunit, Howdunit and Whydunit. Not "she thought she was doing it, but actually she wasn't doing it. Also she was doing it only in the stories, but she had a completely different objective in reality"

Beato's Heart, the rules of catbox (X, Y, Z) and the characters. Even in fiction, these things have to be consistent with Rokkenjima-Prime. Otherwise the story is a complete mess of inconsistencies where she can write whatever she wants.

Um...exactly? She's the fucking Endless Witch.

"Beato, trapped in your own bird cage.. of fan-fictions of completely made up stuffs and rules with that don't even exist in reality"

To me, the story only makes sense if she's trapped in the catbox she created herself on Rokkenjima-Prime, with her roulette.

And then you miss the point again and don't even try to follow what I'm saying.

Do you mean the Tea Party?
First thing, Ange doesn't really give a shit about Beato. So i really can't see Bern chancing her words for her.
Second, Bern mocks Beato because she's a "martyr" that wanted to hide the truth, so i don't see why she would contradict herself in the tea party.
Third, the Tea Party doesn't portray her as someone evil, but.. someone that has give up on everything and will let fate decide. Seems pretty accurate to me.

Lion's also there, and he has emotional investment in Yasu.

And, I'm sorry, what? You can seriously believe Yasu isn't evil, and is too naive to work up the courage for a phone call, but she sets up a fucking bomb and has four guns with full plans to kill everyone unless they can solve her game, then calmly sits and watches as they all shoot each other to death? Are you crazy?

There was a confession. The entire episode was devoted to Yasu's heart, and how she suffered.

The fake murders were for Erika, they decided to do that because of her annoying rantings about mysteries. Also, Battler didn't want to reveal the truth.
No murders = nothing to investigate.

How is it a confession, then? There's more going on than Yasu's love drama. You're basically saying that half of an entire Core Arc is filler. Way to pick and choose, there.

Stabbed in the back by a long stake on a desert island for one day, playing dead.
There is a doctor, but i mean...

I never said she was playing dead. She could've lost consciousness from bloodloss or shock. If Eva can do it after being shot, I think Jessica can do so after being stabbed in a nonvital area.

Well, Battler has been wrong many times before. Most of his "theories" during Ep. 1-4 were BS.

But the idea was never shot down.

Anyway, we know "Yasu" was alive. She wrote the numbers on the door.

Which happened before Nanjo was murdered.

FirstTwilight

2011-02-04, 19:15

To use your own words against you. These are the core arcs. And by episode 6 we're told there are only two possible truths left. The illusion of a closed room and the illusion of the crime. Battler chose the illusion of the crime. Your theory that he used fake deaths because Erika is in the episode doesn't have any support either. It's just a theory. Just like Yasu being blackmailed is.

But the characters clearly said they did it for Erika. And Battler said that too, because he didn't want to reveal the truth. They all even die in comfortable places!

Beatrice never hinted she was blackmailed. And all the victims died in weird places. How am i suppose to guess something like that?

Beside, i'd really like to read a credible theory other than Shkanontrice as the culprit for Ep. 1-4. If Yasu was going to do a "fake murderers game" then who did really kill everyone? Why is bomb active? Why did Kanon lie about the chain? Why did Yasu continue with that farce? Why didn't Yasu just kill the other culprit(s)? He has the servants support.

You're not going to get anywhere with that attitude. We don't even know for sure what the facts are.

A confession and the detective saying "this is the culprit" aren't facts?

She never once actually confesses to the crime, except in Bern's Tea Party, which is questionable for all sorts of other reasons.

???

http://i56.tinypic.com/2eaknq1.jpg

And what the hell do you think she was talking about all the time?

Um...exactly? She's the fucking Endless Witch.

Trapped in her own catbox, where she actually realized that 1- her powers are not really endless, she realized how really limited her choices where 2- there were no good endings in sight.

Also, what i'm saying is: the "fiction" has to follow the same rules that governed Rokkenjima prime.

Lion's also there, and he has emotional investment in Yasu.

Lion already knew about "her" other self and "her" crimes in other worlds.

And, I'm sorry, what? You can seriously believe Yasu isn't evil, and is too naive to work up the courage for a phone call, but she sets up a fucking bomb and has four guns with full plans to kill everyone unless they can solve her game, then calmly sits and watches as they all shoot each other to death? Are you crazy?

Holy fuck, context, do you know it!? It's not like Yasu eats babies.

She's a very depressed person, she felt trapped in a shitty fate, she has gender problems and her life was manipulated by many for her crazy rapist father.
She also actively dresses up as two people of different sexes and a witch, but we all know this already.

Also, shy maid angle doesn't play at all.

http://i55.tinypic.com/20ihxep.jpg

Beside, R07 made us feel sorry for Takano, and she killed thousands in many realities. Is really a stretch to think that he would made Yasu pitiable despite her plan?

How is it a confession, then? There's more going on than Yasu's love drama. You're basically saying that half of an entire Core Arc is filler. Way to pick and choose, there.

Core arcs weren't just fake murders, uh.

I never said she was playing dead. She could've lost consciousness from bloodloss or shock. If Eva can do it after being shot, I think Jessica can do so after being stabbed in a nonvital area.

For all the day? And once again, who did that to her? And why didn't the culprit kill her? All i'm seeing are hypothesis that don't follow any rule, at least Yasu's roulette of fate is consistent.

Which happened before Nanjo was murdered.

Yeah, slightly before that. She could have been around.

Judoh

2011-02-04, 19:42

But the characters clearly said they did it for Erika. And Battler said that too, because he didn't want to reveal the truth. They all even die in comfortable places!

They didn't die in those places until Erika killed them. It's explained that they chose those places to fake exactly because it was comfortable and it was easier to do it there. Instead of in the rain where it wouldn't be comfortable they chose places like beds, sofas, and being seated at tables to fake their deaths in a lot of the episodes. It's also stated that Yasu wanted Battler to understand her and faking murders makes much more sense for that prospect than killing everyone.

Beatrice never hinted she was blackmailed. And all the victims died in weird places. How am i suppose to guess something like that?

Let's be clear. We're talking mostly about the first twilight that's fake.

The person whose being proposed to have his life at stake in this Blackmail is Battler whom she cares for. It's not the unrealistic for her to react that way. We know she cares for him.

FirstTwilight

2011-02-04, 20:07

They didn't die in those places until Erika killed them. It's explained that they chose those places to fake exactly because it was comfortable and it was easier to do it there. Instead of in the rain where it wouldn't be comfortable they chose places like beds, sofas, and being seated at tables to fake their deaths in a lot of the episodes. It's also stated that Yasu wanted Battler to understand her and faking murders makes much more sense for that prospect than killing everyone.

Let's be clear. We're talking mostly about the First Fake Twilight fake.

The person whose being proposed to have his life at stake in this Blackmail is Battler whom she cares for. It's not the unrealistic for her to react that way. We know she cares for him.

Ok, let's pretend she was planning a Fake First Twilight:

Ep 1: Yasu brides Kyrie, Krauss, Rudolf, Gohda and Rosa to play dead in the parlor. Somehow Hideyoshi is in it too. Since blood was found there and it's a comfortable place, i guess the "real" culprit(s) killed them the parlor... but Shannon's fake body is in the storehouse...
Who? And why did Genji draw the weird Magical Symbol in the storehouse later?

Ok, then everyone wakes up.. and Yasu starts to kill for real... everyone. She killed Eva and Hideyoshi. Ok, maybe she suspected they were the real killers. Ok, maybe she didn't kill them. Then, who? Pretty much everyone else had an alibi! Now, instead of escaping from the place or stopping the bomb she continued the murder mystery, she fakes her death, and she even kills Natsuhi later! If she cared for Battler so much, why did she continue?

AuraTwilight

2011-02-04, 20:18

But the characters clearly said they did it for Erika. And Battler said that too, because he didn't want to reveal the truth. They all even die in comfortable places!

Beatrice never hinted she was blackmailed. And all the victims died in weird places. How am i suppose to guess something like that?

Beside, i'd really like to read a credible theory other than Shkanontrice as the culprit for Ep. 1-4. If Yasu was going to do a "fake murderers game" then who did really kill everyone? Why is bomb active? Why did Kanon lie about the chain? Why did Yasu continue with that farce? Why didn't Yasu just kill the other culprit(s)? He has the servants support.

And what happens in kakera where Erika's not there? They do it for Battler. Notice that everyone in the First Twilight always dies in comfortable places?

Anyway, you're probably not going to get an answer for a culprit in EP1-4 other than Shkanontrice, because the scripts DO exist to cover up the real event. You're trying to connect fictional narratives as scenarios against an unseen real event that's being covered up by Yasu's tales.

Blackmail isn't the thing that's supposed to be hinted here. I gave it as one of many possibilities and you clung to that to argue against the idea, which is foolish. The fact of the matter is that Yasu is taking the blame for things she's not doing. She's the witch who killed the family so Battler doesn't have to suspect the people he loves. Why she did this is the question, but not the fact that she did so at all.

A confession and the detective saying "this is the culprit" aren't facts?

Not when we're talking about fictional stories sent out in message bottles that contradict what actually happened (like Eva being alive) and the "culprit" is someone who doesn't have a motive to kill anyone.

Let me pose you a question: If Yasu was the culprit, then how come Battler hated her as the killer of the family, UNTIL HE LEARNED THE TRUTH, wherein he then immediately apologized to her, then wished to give her a happy ending however he could? Unless she was innocent, there is no reason Battler would feel this way. Breaking her heart wouldn't excuse her killing everyone if she actually did so.

The fact that Battler loves her is proof in of itself that Yasu is not the culprit. With this alone, my reasoning is possible without making any assumptions.

And what the hell do you think she was talking about all the time?

There are "many fates that can be chosen in that time." Do you honestly thing "lol murders" is all that she's talking about, here?

Trapped in her own catbox, where she actually realized that 1- her powers are not really endless, she realized how really limited her choices where 2- there were no good endings in sight.

Also, what i'm saying is: the "fiction" has to follow the same rules that governed Rokkenjima prime.

But not to the extent that you're saying, otherwise Yasu wouldn't be able to lie to the extent she does.

Lion already knew about "her" other self and "her" crimes in other worlds.

There's a difference between what he was shown and "Yasu pretty much trolled the Ushiromiya family into killing each other." Even then, that's still his aunt and uncle running around killing his cousins and shit.

Holy fuck, context, do you know it!? It's not like Yasu eats babies.

She's a very depressed person, she felt trapped in a shitty fate, she has gender problems and her life was manipulated by many for her crazy rapist father.
She also actively dresses up as two people of different sexes and a witch, but we all know this already.

Also, shy maid angle doesn't play at all.

Yea, context. How do we go from "I'm depressed, liked to crossdress, and I have gender problems" to "I'm going to fucking kill everyone and blow up the entire island because....um...I'll get back to you on that"?

Really, what motive does Yasu have for any of this? And mind you, it better be fucking good, because whatever she did, Battler forgave her completely and utterly and doesn't find her sinful in any sense. Go on. What the hell reason does Yasu have to kill 18 people, including a nine year old girl? Depression doesn't cut it; the person in that Tea Party doesn't act anything like the Yasu we've seen. She literally sat and watched everyone blow each other's faces off without so much as a gasp.

Is really a stretch to think that he would made Yasu pitiable despite her plan?

YES, IT IS. Comparing her to Takano is in no ways applicable. Takano was portrayed as EVIL, and was not at all forgiven by the characters, treated as the victim in the tragedy, or excused for her actions. Takano had a Freudian excuse, but she was not treated as a tragic heroine.

Beatrice, however, evolves from an evil antagonist, and the more we learn about her, is portrayed as a damsel in distress that needs to be "saved", even if that salvation comes in the sense of being put to rest.

Core arcs weren't just fake murders, uh.

The EP6 Core Arc is. Jesus Christ, you're treating them as if these are Answer Arcs and neglecting that you still need to think and fill in blanks yourself.

For all the day? And once again, who did that to her? And why didn't the culprit kill her? All i'm seeing are hypothesis that don't follow any rule, at least Yasu's roulette of fate is consistent.

I'm just playing devil's advocate for the Jessica thing, mind you. I was trying to demonstrate a point but it just flew right over your head.

Yeah, slightly before that. She could have been around.

"slightly before" meaning "almost an hour."

Ep 1: Yasu brides Kyrie, Krauss, Rudolf, Gohda and Rosa to play dead in the parlor. Somehow Hideyoshi is in it too. Since blood was found there and it's a comfortable place, i guess the "real" culprit(s) killed them the parlor... but Shannon's fake body in the storehouse...
Who? And why did Genji draw the weird Magical Symbol in the storehouse later?

Battler never sees Shannon. There's probably literally no one there since Kanon and Hideyoshi didn't let anyone see. And Genji probably drew the magical symbol as part of the Murder Mystery. The idea is that the adults and servants are in on it. Only the cousins are left out of the loop.

Ok, then everyone wakes up.. and Yasu starts to kill for real... everyone. She killed Eva and Hideyoshi. Ok, maybe she suspected they were the real killers. Ok, maybe she didn't kill them. Then, who? Pretty much everyone else had an alibi! Now, instead of escaping from the place or stopping the bomb she continued the murder mystery, she fakes her death, and she even kills Natsuhi later! If she cared for Battler so much, why did she continue?

It doesn't have to be Yasu. The idea of the Fake First Twilight theory relies on the premise that Yasu is not really the culprit. We also don't know for sure that Yasu was the one who started the bomb; she's not the only one who knows about it, y'know.

Now, I'm not going to answer the rest of the points because you kind of shot yourself in the foot.

If she cared for Battler so much, why did she continue?

And that's just the thing. She cares for Battler. Battler is quite possibly the one she loves most. She loves him so much that in the Meta-World her entire game against him is a plea for his recognition, pleading for his help.

What motive does Yasu have to kill anyone? This is the big problem. EP7 keeps going on and on and on about the Whydunnit, and Yasu does not have a fucking Whydunnit. If you make Yasu the culprit you're commiting the fallacy of a generic evil villain that just kills people with no adequate reason.

Judoh

2011-02-04, 20:36

Ok, let's pretend she was planning a Fake First Twilight:

Pretend?

Ep 1: Yasu brides Kyrie, Krauss, Rudolf, Gohda and Rosa to play dead in the parlor.

I think you're talking about the Dining hall , not the parlor. Kumasawa found blood there because it was part of the set up.

Somehow Hideyoshi is in it too. Since blood was found there and it's a comfortable place, i guess the "real" culprit(s) killed them the parlor... but Shannon's fake body in the storehouse...

Good job. Creating a contradiction that doesn't even exist. They faked in the shed. Shannon isn't even there. That's been a theory since forever. What now?

Who? And why did Genji draw the weird Magical Symbol in the storehouse later?

They faked there that's why.

FirstTwilight

2011-02-04, 21:07

Not when we're talking about fictional stories sent out in message bottles that contradict what actually happened (like Eva being alive) and the "culprit" is someone who doesn't have a motive to kill anyone.

Again, fictional stories still have to be based on Rokkenjima event.

They are on the same level of the "truth". They contain Beato's Heart and the setting. If she "killed" for real in the tales the she was going to kill for real on Rokkenjima. If she was going to make fake murders in the tale, then she was going to do fake murders on Rokkenjima prime.

Let me pose you a question: If Yasu was the culprit, then how come Battler hated her as the killer of the family, UNTIL HE LEARNED THE TRUTH, wherein he then immediately apologized to her, then wished to give her a happy ending however he could? Unless she was innocent, there is no reason Battler would feel this way. Breaking her heart wouldn't excuse her killing everyone if she actually did so.

I don't know, the fact that she was a crazy maid that got pushed beyond the edge and that he feels responsible for what happened to her could be the cause.
Again, her objective is not "i'm going to kill everyone, i'm so evil", but rather to force a miracle or let fate decide for her... them. It wasn't even ALL about Battler, since Shannon and Kanon where part of the roulette too.

http://i52.tinypic.com/t6555h.jpg

The fact that she didn't kill on Rokkenjima Prime probably helped.

There are "many fates that can be chosen in that time." Do you honestly thing "lol murders" is all that she's talking about, here?

"A certain fate, where absolutely no one could escape if the epitaph was not solved", are we ignoring that?

There's a difference between what he was shown and "Yasu pretty much trolled the Ushiromiya family into killing each other." Even then, that's still his aunt and uncle running around killing his cousins and shit.

Totally. I could almost see an evil smirk in those dead eyes when she did it.

Depression doesn't cut it; the person in that Tea Party doesn't act anything like the Yasu we've seen.

We never really saw Yasu. No, Shannon and Kanon are just illusions, facades she puts. But we know she spent two years before the conference depressed and suffering about her "split soul". Is it unthinkable that she wouldn't be all happy and fuzzy?

YES, IT IS. Comparing her to Takano is in no ways applicable. Takano was portrayed as EVIL, and was not at all forgiven by the characters, treated as the victim in the tragedy, or excused for her actions. Takano had a Freudian excuse, but she was not treated as a tragic heroine.

Actually, she was, except for the "tragic heroine" part i could genuinely feel she was a victim of the circumstances in Matsuribayashi-hen. Piece #52 made that clear.
Not saying that i don't condemn her for what she did.

"slightly before" meaning "almost an hour."

Geez, then maybe Eva killed her. We'll never be able to prove that.

Battler never sees Shannon. There's probably literally no one there since Kanon and Hideyoshi didn't let anyone see. And Genji probably drew the magical symbol as part of the Murder Mystery. The idea is that the adults and servants are in on it. Only the cousins are left out of the loop.

Again, why are they in the storehouse and not in the parlor? Shouldn't they be in comfortable places?

It doesn't have to be Yasu. The idea of the Fake First Twilight theory relies on the premise that Yasu is not really the culprit. We also don't know for sure that Yasu was the one who started the bomb; she's not the only one who knows about it, y'know.

So, essentially we don't know shit other than the fact that Yasu planned a Fake First Twilight and someone hijacked the game, despite all the clues pointing at her. Nice.

Also, not even who. Kyrie, Krauss, Rudolf and Rosa are dead. So were Eva and Hideyoshi. Natsuhi is not the culprit.
Hmm, i'm going to exclude the servants (Yasu bitches), Battler and Jessica.. holy fuck, Joji managed to blackmail Yasu and her servants alliance!

Good job. Creating a contradiction that doesn't even exist. They faked in the shed. Shannon isn't even there. That's been a theory since forever. What now?

I was sure Battler saw a part of "Shannon"'s body, guess i remembered wrong.

AuraTwilight

2011-02-04, 21:33

Again, fictional stories still have to be based on Rokkenjima event.

They are on the same level of the "truth". They contain Beato's Heart and the setting. If she "killed" for real in the tales the she was going to kill for real on Rokkenjima. If she was going to make fake murders in the tale, then she was going to do fake murders on Rokkenjima prime.

That's a completely unfounded statement. By that logic, Ange's 1998 is false because Eva dies in almost every game, or that the other games shouldn't be allowed to kill Eva off. You're making up a rule and imposing it without evidence to deny ideas you dislike; just because the stories are based off of the Rokkenjima event doesn't mean it's a 1:1 correlation; hell, the first two Message Bottles were written before the incident happened, and the rest weren't even written by Yasu.

In other words, you're talking out your behind.

I don't know, the fact that she was a crazy maid that got pushed beyond the edge and that he feels responsible for what happened to her could be the cause.
Again, her objective is not "i'm going to kill everyone, i'm so evil", but rather to force a miracle or let fate decide for her... them. It wasn't even ALL about Battler, since Shannon and Kanon where part of the roulette too.

It doesn't matter what her motive is. She's (according to you), KILLING PEOPLE. There is absolutely no way to forgive that, no matter how much your life sucks. You're basically saying that Battler is knowingly encouraging and condoning sociopathic behavior.

The fact that she didn't kill on Rokkenjima Prime probably helped.

How can you say that? We've never seen Rokkenjima Prime.

"A certain fate, where absolutely no one could escape if the epitaph was not solved", are we ignoring that?

No, but it's context is uncertain. Is it referring to the four games that Will is investigating? It seems to. Is it referring specifically to "lolbombs?" That can't be, Eva escaped it.

We never really saw Yasu. No, Shannon and Kanon are just illusions, facades she puts. But we know she spent two years before the conference depressed and suffering about her "split soul". Is it unthinkable that she wouldn't be all happy and fuzzy?

There's more than "happy and fuzzy" and "fuck it, everyone can go ahead and die." You've apparently never met a depressed person, or you hang out with sociopathic murderers.

Shannon and Kanon may be illusions, but they do represent aspects of her character, along with Beatrice. We've seen plenty of Yasu. She's possibly the most developed character simply because the series revolves around understanding her.

And Bern's Tea Party completely guts her characterization and portrays her as an emotionless doll that does whatever is convenient to make the story work. I don't care how depressed you are, that's not how a human being behaves. Yasu expresses care and affection for the Rokkenjima family: She would have SOME reaction to the shoot-out. At the very least, her expression wouldn't be "blank." But she's no different from the corpse of Clair that's standing onstage.

Actually, she was, except for the "tragic heroine" part i could genuinely feel she was a victim of the circumstances in Matsuribayashi-hen. Piece #52 made that clear.
Not saying that i don't condemn her for what she did.

You can't call yourself a victim of circumstances if you have a secret military force and you have them gas and wipe out an entire village of people and have plotted out a genocide several years in advance in order to try and put your name in the history books. Her childhood sucked, but she took things into her own hands and completely dominated her own destiny to secure Absolute Victory. It's why Lambdadelta gave her her blessings. Takano IS NOT a victim, no matter how pitiable she is.

Again, why are they in the storehouse and not in the parlor? Shouldn't they be in comfortable places

The storehouse is plenty comfortable, according to Gohda and Kumasawa. It's not like they're in the rain.

So, essentially we don't know shit other than the fact that Yasu planned a Fake First Twilight and someone hijacked the game, despite all the clues pointing at her. Nice.

Hey, I'm not the one who says we should just discard entire Core Arcs because the Gamemaster is too soft.

Also, not even who. Kyrie, Krauss, Rudolf and Rosa are dead. So were Eva and Hideyoshi. Natsuhi is not the culprit.

You took absolutely every one of those reds out of context, making them absolutely meaningless for what you're trying to use them for. Good work, you've demonstrated that you don't know what the most basic rulesets of the game are.

Judoh

2011-02-04, 22:04

The difference is Takano didn't kill people because of "lol it's my shitty fate". No the idea of fate disgusts her. She had a shitty childhood, but she didn't kill everyone because of those circumstances. She killed everyone because there was a change in government and they decided not to give her research funding. So someone from the old government came to her with promises of getting her research recognized and she used the emergency manual 34 as a murder script to prove a point. At no point are we asked to sympathize with her choices. We're just shown that she wasn't always evil. That's completely different from Yasu who is not portrayed as evil ever. She's put in a good light constantly even before episode 7,and is actually kind of apathetic.

Rika is actually a much better comparison to Yasu, and even that's not completely correct.

Kylon99

2011-02-05, 01:37

The others have pointed out the answer given to us in EP6, that you should know there was faking going on because people supposedly 'died' in very comfortable places, as opposed to being out in the rain, like Kumasawa and Nanjo in EP2. (Should be obvious old people wouldn't be faking in the cold, cold rain. 8) )

But I wanted to add this:

You know there's faking, or rather a game because of two things.

"The chances of two people not being picked for the first twilight in all 5 episodes is 3.46% The chances of one person survivng all twilights from EP1-5 is 1.31%. This means Nanjo is purposely excluded from the first twilight and Battler is purposely excluded from all twilights in EP1-5. This highly suggests the Epitaph Fakery is concerned with Battler in some way."

AuraTwilight

2011-02-05, 03:00

Not only that, but how's a sickly, frail, and petite person like Yasu going to kill six full grown adults? She can't kill them one by one and drag them out because there's no blood trails or anything. She can't use a gun either, since there's never any bullet wound in the First Twilight.

What she does have, however, is a shitload of gold. And with that gold, she can acquire Hollywood quality makeup.

And with that gold, she can acquire the obedience of the adults. Answer this: In the chapel scene in Episode 2, why does everyone "acknowledge Beatrice"? It's not magic, because if it was a fantasy scene we'd be shown magic. There is, however, gold bars on the table. And Rosa is there as well, and "acknowledges Beatrice", but later on in the story, she's listed as "not believing in the witch."

The only way to resolve this is that Beatrice got them all to cooperate with her game; consistent with Rosa, put in the role of a "detective" still being suspicious as fuck, up to and including talking with a deceased Kinzo.

So yes, there is evidence in the first two games for First Twilight fakery.

FirstTwilight

2011-02-05, 05:59

That's a completely unfounded statement. By that logic, Ange's 1998 is false because Eva dies in almost every game, or that the other games shouldn't be allowed to kill Eva off. You're making up a rule and imposing it without evidence to deny ideas you dislike; just because the stories are based off of the Rokkenjima event doesn't mean it's a 1:1 correlation; hell, the first two Message Bottles were written before the incident happened, and the rest weren't even written by Yasu.

Again, there are rules. Beato's Heart. Rule X, Y, Z. THESE SHOULD BE ABSOLUTE.
The setting and the characters should always be the same.
You are essentially saying that Yasu is trapped in her own fan-fiction of made up stuffs that don't have anything to do with reality.

You are suppose to be able to see the TRUTH from Ep. 1-4. Whodunit, Whydunit, and Howdunit. You are suppose to realize the rules that governed Rokkenjima... but apparently they don't have anything to do with what really happened but are just made up stuffs.

http://i52.tinypic.com/97mouh.jpg

How can you say that? We've never seen Rokkenjima Prime.

Eh, i wonder.

No, but it's context is uncertain.

How so?

Is it referring to the four games that Will is investigating? It seems to. Is it referring specifically to "lolbombs?" That can't be, Eva escaped it.

In Ep. III she solved the Epitaph and so she did in Ep. VII Tea Party.
They don't solve the Epitath = They die, it's CLEARLY stated.

You can't call yourself a victim of circumstances if you have a secret military force and you have them gas and wipe out an entire village of people and have plotted out a genocide several years in advance in order to try and put your name in the history books. Her childhood sucked, but she took things into her own hands and completely dominated her own destiny to secure Absolute Victory. It's why Lambdadelta gave her her blessings. Takano IS NOT a victim, no matter how pitiable she is.

But that's why her past is so important. Every time she tried to change something, things went wrong. Her parents died, life at the orphanage sucked. Managed to escape and find some peace, until her savior died without arching his goal. Her only sponsor also died and her researches were going to be buried.
I do condemn her for her actions. But i also understand there is a point people stop being rational.
The fact that she herself started to regret what she did in the end helped it.

The storehouse is plenty comfortable, according to Gohda and Kumasawa. It's not like they're in the rain.

Ok, i'll give you that.

Hey, I'm not the one who says we should just discard entire Core Arcs because the Gamemaster is too soft.

Actually, you are. Will solved Ep 1-2 and part of ep 3-4 using Shkanontrice as the culprit.

There's more than "happy and fuzzy" and "fuck it, everyone can go ahead and die." You've apparently never met a depressed person, or you hang out with sociopathic murderers.

Shannon and Kanon may be illusions, but they do represent aspects of her character, along with Beatrice. We've seen plenty of Yasu. She's possibly the most developed character simply because the series revolves around understanding her.

And Bern's Tea Party completely guts her characterization and portrays her as an emotionless doll that does whatever is convenient to make the story work. I don't care how depressed you are, that's not how a human being behaves. Yasu expresses care and affection for the Rokkenjima family: She would have SOME reaction to the shoot-out. At the very least, her expression wouldn't be "blank." But she's no different from the corpse of Clair that's standing onstage.

You took absolutely every one of those reds out of context, making them absolutely meaningless for what you're trying to use them for. Good work, you've demonstrated that you don't know what the most basic rulesets of the game are.

Out of context? I'm sorry, but that's what happened. Kyrie and Rudolf are DEAD. They can't blackmail anyone. That's red text. Eva and Hideyoshi had a fucking huge stake in their head/body. THEY ARE NOT PLAYING DEAD.

Yasu lied about the chain. Yasu faked her death. Yasu shot Natsuhi. Yasu stabbed Jessica in the back. Yasu killed Gohda and George and then shot herself in the head. These are facts. Yasu activated a bomb, "an absolute fate" that would kill everyone in the end if the epitaph was not solved. IT'S STATED, SHE CLEARLY SAID THAT, AND NOT ONLY IN BERN TEA PARTY.

The difference is Takano didn't kill people because of "lol it's my shitty fate". No the idea of fate disgusts her. She had a shitty childhood, but she didn't kill everyone because of those circumstances. She killed everyone because there was a change in government and they decided not to give her research funding. So someone from the old government came to her with promises of getting her research recognized and she used the emergency manual 34 as a murder script to prove a point. At no point are we asked to sympathize with her choices. We're just shown that she wasn't always evil. That's completely different from Yasu who is not portrayed as evil ever. She's put in a good light constantly even before episode 7,and is actually kind of apathetic.

Rika is actually a much better comparison to Yasu, and even that's not completely correct.

I wasn't try to compare the two, i was just saying that R07 made us feel sorry for a killer before. Geez, now that i think about it, there is Shion too.

rogerpepitone

2011-02-05, 08:57

I thought that Gohda and Kumasawa were wrapped up in blankets when they were waiting out in the shed. It's not in the rain, but it's not warm either.

TW25

2011-02-05, 10:53

Not only that, but how's a sickly, frail, and petite person like Yasu going to kill six full grown adults? She can't kill them one by one and drag them out because there's no blood trails or anything. She can't use a gun either, since there's never any bullet wound in the First Twilight.

It's easy to construct a theory for this. Yasu enlists the help of Genji, they go to the dining room and kill Kyrie, Rudolf, Rosa, and Krauss by shooting them in the head. Now Genji can either carry the bodies, or they can load them onto the serving cart and roll them out to the shed.

Gohda is all alone in the servant's room, so killing him wouldn't be difficult. Once they're at the shed, you just smash their faces and that takes care of the "no bullet wounds" problem. Shannon's body is then prepared and killed as well.

It's not that impossible that Hideyoshi and everyone would assume that the bloody female servant clothes inside of a shed with five other dead bodies is Shannon's corpse. No one would ever say "Something looks off about that, let me check to make sure there's a person under those clothes" after they've discovered a brutal murder.

Are there any problems with this theory?

LyricalAura

2011-02-05, 10:58

And what's Genji's motive for becoming a mass murderer? "Because my crazy boss ordered me to" is not a valid explanation.

TW25

2011-02-05, 11:12

He lies about the chain being set on Eva and Hideyoshi's door. As well as the existence of a child between Kinzo and Beatrice, even when it's clear that everyone is going to die in less than an hour.

Genji is clearly the type of person who is loyal to the end. So if Yasu ordered him to kill a few people, I don't think he would refuse.

Think of the reget he must feel also. The child that he saved and brought to Rokkenjima screamed at him about being furniture. He probably blames himself for a lot of Yasu's pain.

AuraTwilight

2011-02-05, 14:41

Again, there are rules. Beato's Heart. Rule X, Y, Z. THESE SHOULD BE ABSOLUTE.
The setting and the characters should always be the same.
You are essentially saying that Yasu is trapped in her own fan-fiction of made up stuffs that don't have anything to do with reality.

You are suppose to be able to see the TRUTH from Ep. 1-4. Whodunit, Whydunit, and Howdunit. You are suppose to realize the rules that governed Rokkenjima... but apparently they don't have anything to do with what really happened but are just made up stuffs.

We're not told what these X Y Z rules are, and according to Bernkastel, she can't figure out rule Z because it's always changing like a shifting labyrinth. Even with the X Y Z rules in Higurashi, situations kept ending up being WILDLY different. Again, you're talking out your ass.

In Ep. III she solved the Epitaph and so she did in Ep. VII Tea Party.
They don't solve the Epitath = They die, it's CLEARLY stated.

And yet When the seagulls cry, no one will survive, but you're just fine with assuming all reds are always valid.

Actually, you are. Will solved Ep 1-2 and part of ep 3-4 using Shkanontrice as the culprit.

Of the first four games. Will doesn't investigate any further, and according to Bern, Yasu's not even the culprit in the end; she tries to pass that it's actually Rudolf and Kyrie, which isn't deducible from the first four games at all.

Out of context? I'm sorry, but that's what happened. Kyrie and Rudolf are DEAD. They can't blackmail anyone. That's red text. Eva and Hideyoshi had a fucking huge stake in their head/body. THEY ARE NOT PLAYING DEAD.

Yasu lied about the chain. Yasu faked her death. Yasu shot Natsuhi. Yasu stabbed Jessica in the back. Yasu killed Gohda and George and then shot herself in the head. These are facts. Yasu activated a bomb, "an absolute fate" that would kill everyone in the end if the epitaph was not solved. IT'S STATED, SHE CLEARLY SAID THAT, AND NOT ONLY IN BERN TEA PARTY.

Again, you're not fucking getting it. No one is saying that the Second Twilight onward is faked. You are deliberately misunderstanding what people are actually proposing and beating against a Strawman that NO ONE supports because it's easy for you to argue against; you've yet to give anything that actually attacks the Fake First Twilight theory as actually presented by the people here.

Now calm the fuck down, grow the fuck up, and stop pitching a little bitch fit. I'm getting sick of your attitude.

I wasn't try to compare the two, i was just saying that R07 made us feel sorry for a killer before. Geez, now that i think about it, there is Shion too.

There's a difference between making us feel sorry for a killer and portraying a "killer" as an innocent victim.

@TW25

It's easy to construct a theory for this. Yasu enlists the help of Genji, they go to the dining room and kill Kyrie, Rudolf, Rosa, and Krauss by shooting them in the head. Now Genji can either carry the bodies, or they can load them onto the serving cart and roll them out to the shed.

Aside from not having a motive for Genji, and ignoring that there should only be one killer under Knox and Dine and whatnot, this doesn't work. They can't be killed before placed in the shed because there's not enough blood and there's no signs of the bodies being moved and handled. EP5 also tries to pass off as a certainty that dead bodies don't move, for what it's worth.

Gohda is all alone in the servant's room, so killing him wouldn't be difficult. Once they're at the shed, you just smash their faces and that takes care of the "no bullet wounds" problem. Shannon's body is then prepared and killed as well.

It would still be possible to deduce that a gun was used even if the face was smashed. They cannot be killed and then dragged to the shed, and I wonder what force could gather six people in the shed so they can be murdered. Genji's only one dude. "Wait here, I'll be back with the rest of the victims?"

Kanon is still alive, so Shannon's corpse does not exist.

It's not that impossible that Hideyoshi and everyone would assume that the bloody female servant clothes inside of a shed with five other dead bodies is Shannon's corpse. No one would ever say "Something looks off about that, let me check to make sure there's a person under those clothes" after they've discovered a brutal murder.

Hideyoshi sees a hand with a diamong ring on it, along with half of a face. If you're going to assume he's lying, you might as well say there's nothing there at all; Battler doesn't see it either way. Also, body doubles aren't allowed.

FirstTwilight

2011-02-05, 15:05

We're not told what these X Y Z rules are, and according to Bernkastel, she can't figure out rule Z because it's always changing like a shifting labyrinth. Even with the X Y Z rules in Higurashi, situations kept ending up being WILDLY different. Again, you're talking out your ass.

It's a labyrinth that constantly change its shape because of the roulette. Will the adults find the gold? Will Eva? Or Kyrie? If they don't, then Yasu enters in action, and that can again produce different results. That's why Bernkastel is weak against it.

The other rule is the bomb.

And yet When the seagulls cry, no one will survive, but you're just fine with assuming all reds are always valid.

But it's not even red text. It's a CHARACTER making a CONFESSION about the bomb and why she was going to use it.

Of the first four games. Will doesn't investigate any further, and according to Bern, Yasu's not even the culprit in the end; she tries to pass that it's actually Rudolf and Kyrie, which isn't deducible from the first four games at all.

Of course, she didn't kill on Rokkenjima prime.

Again, you're not fucking getting it. No one is saying that the Second Twilight onward is faked. You are deliberately misunderstanding what people are actually proposing and beating against a Strawman that NO ONE supports because it's easy for you to argue against; you've yet to give anything that actually attacks the Fake First Twilight theory as actually presented by the people here.

I'm sorry, but "Yasu wanted to do a fake first twilight" automatically leads us to "Yasu wanted to make a fake murder mystery". You are essentially saying that she wanted to make a fake first twilight and then she started to kill for real.
Do you realize this doesn't make any sense?

Now calm the fuck down, grow the fuck up, and stop pitching a little bitch fit. I'm getting sick of your attitude.

:uhoh:

There's a difference between making us feel sorry for a killer and portraying a "killer" as an innocent victim.

BECAUSE SHE DIDN'T KILL ANYONE ON ROKKENJIMA PRIME.

Chron

2011-02-05, 15:23

It's a labyrinth that constantly change its shape because of the roulette. Will the adults find the gold? Will Eva? Or Kyrie? If they don't, then Yasu enters in action, and that can again produce different results. That's why Bernkastel is weak against it.

The other rule is the bomb.
That's 2 out of 3.

I'm sorry, but "Yasu wanted to do a fake first twilight" automatically leads us to "Yasu wanted to make a fake murder mystery". You are essentially saying that she wanted to make a fake first twilight and then she started to kill for real.
Do you realize this doesn't make any sense?

For the love of god, stop with the straw mans. They're obvious, and frankly painful to read. It seems pretty clear (to me) that you're just being intentionally antagonistic, so stop.

BECAUSE SHE DIDN'T KILL ANYONE ON ROKKENJIMA PRIME.It's like you're not even listening.

Leafsnail

2011-02-05, 15:42

Are there any problems with this theory?
Yes.

Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!
The red applied specifically to this case. It could have been the case that Hideyoshi saw a corpse that wasn't Shannon's and lied about it, but it's impossible for him to have been mistaken.

There is also "no corpses exist except those of characters who have appeared in the story", and although that doesn't apply specifically to this case I think the reds towards the end of episode 5 are meant to give hints for earlier episodes (like "There have been no hints suggesting that someone had disguised themselves as Rosa!" could be read as a hint for ep2).

AuraTwilight

2011-02-05, 15:56

Of course, she didn't kill on Rokkenjima prime.

Then why are you insisting that Yasu is the culprit?

I'm sorry, but "Yasu wanted to do a fake first twilight" automatically leads us to "Yasu wanted to make a fake murder mystery". You are essentially saying that she wanted to make a fake first twilight and then she started to kill for real.
Do you realize this doesn't make any sense?

Do you realize this isn't what anyone is arguing? The idea is that before a "Fake Second Twilight" could begin, the culprit hijacked things and used the atmosphere as an opportunity to get away with actual murders, including possibly killing for real the people who were faking.

Do you realize that you are arguing over a viewpoint that only exists in your own mind?

FirstTwilight

2011-02-05, 16:24

Then why are you insisting that Yasu is the culprit?

I never said she was Rokkenjima Prime culprit. I only said she was the culprit of the stories. Ep. VII made this very clear.

Anyway, if the adults hadn't hijacked her, she would have followed the roulette.

Do you realize this isn't what anyone is arguing? The idea is that before a "Fake Second Twilight" could begin, the culprit hijacked things and used the atmosphere as an opportunity to get away with actual murders, including possibly killing for real the people who were faking.

Do you realize that you are arguing over a viewpoint that only exists in your own mind?

But it doesn't make sense. Because, after the first twilight Yasu is without a doubt the only culprit. She shot Natsuhi. She stabbed Jessica. She killed Eva and Hideyoshi. She killed Gohda and George and then killed herself. There is no second culprit. She did the things.

Leafsnail

2011-02-05, 16:30

There is something odd going on in episode 2 though, since Rosa claims to have been with Shannon the whole time during which the second twilight could've been committed. That fails on two levels with unaided Shkannontrice culprit.

And I still think "a coffin" implies that it was "nailed shut" from the outside. And "Rosa did it" seems like the Earth to Earth solution to me, considering she had all the master keys on her.

Chron

2011-02-05, 16:32

I never said she was Rokkenjima Prime culprit. I only said she was the culprit of the stories. Ep. VII made this very clear.

Anyway, if the adults hadn't hijack her, she would have followed the roulette.

But it doesn't make sense. Because, after the first twilight Yasu is without a doubt the only culprit. She shot Natsuhi. She stabbed Jessica. She killed Eva and Hideyoshi. She killed Gohda and George and then killed herself. There is no second culprit. She did the things.

No, what doesn't make sense is why she set up the fake first Twilight (which we've had hammered into our heads since Chiru first started) and then proceeds to murder the rest of them for real.

The logical assumption is that the individual who orchestrated the fake first twilight and the actual culprit are two different people/persons/entities. The only person revealed to have the capability to orchestrate the fake first twilight/murder game, indeed, the only person who's given a means and motive for doing so is Yasu.

Therefore, by that very logic, Yasu is not the murderer in the games.

FirstTwilight

2011-02-05, 16:47

No, what doesn't make sense is why she set up the fake first Twilight (which we've had hammered into our heads since Chiru first started) and then proceeds to murder the rest of them for real.

Ep. V Fake First Twilight doesn't have anything to do with Yasu's roulette. The gold was already found.

The logical assumption is that the individual who orchestrated the fake first twilight and the actual culprit are two different people/persons/entities. The only person revealed to have the capability to orchestrate the fake first twilight/murder game, indeed, the only person who's given a means and motive for doing so is Yasu.

Therefore, by that very logic, [I]Yasu is not the murderer in the games.

Then, explain who killed everyone in Ep 1. Please, i'm waiting.

What i'm saying is: there is no Fake First Twilight, Yasu was simply abiding to her roulette.

Chron

2011-02-05, 16:51

Please. Ep. V Fake First Twilight doesn't have anything to do with Yasu's roulette. The gold was already found.
How childish.

Explain Episode 6's fake first twilight before claiming to have debunked the theory in it's entirety. Come, take that assumed wit of yours and put it to some use!

Then, explain who killed everyone in Ep 1. Please, i'm waiting.Beatrice.

What i'm saying is: there is no Fake First Twilight, Yasu was simply abiding to her roulette.Explain Episode 6, then. Please, I'm waiting.
:heh:

LyricalAura

2011-02-05, 16:58

There is something odd going on in episode 2 though, since Rosa claims to have been with Shannon the whole time during which the second twilight could've been committed. That fails on two levels with unaided Shkannontrice culprit.

What's more, it's very cleverly disguised by the dialogue, but did you notice that Rosa knew where to find Kanon and Jessica even though nobody actually told her?

TW25

2011-02-05, 17:02

Are there any problems with this theory?

Thanks. I can't believe I didn't see those issues when writing the post. :heh:

I'll try to be a bit more careful next time.

Sherringford

2011-02-05, 17:06

No, what doesn't make sense is why she set up the fake first Twilight (which we've had hammered into our heads since Chiru first started) and then proceeds to murder the rest of them for real.

That actually makes perfect sense.

"I...really can't kill 6 people at once. I mean I'm a frail thing. So guys just wait there and look pretty. Pretend to be dead."

That way the first twilight victims are basically out of the game since they don't leave the crime scene and never know that actual murders are going on. Then, they die with the bomb.

Faking the first twilight does not contradict Yasu culprit in any way.

LyricalAura

2011-02-05, 17:10

That way the first twilight victims are basically out of the game since they don't leave the crime scene and never know that actual murders are going on. Then, they die with the bomb.

It's not like they're going to wait in the same place for 12 hours though. For instance, faking the EP1 first twilight works because the "victims" just have to stay in the shed for maybe an hour before being discovered, and then nobody will check on them again.

Chron

2011-02-05, 17:15

That actually makes perfect sense.

"I...really can't kill 6 people at once. I mean I'm a frail thing. So guys just wait there and look pretty. Pretend to be dead."

That way the first twilight victims are basically out of the game since they don't leave the crime scene and never know that actual murders are going on. Then, they die with the bomb.

Faking the first twilight does not contradict Yasu culprit in any way.

On a purely logistical level, yes. But the motivations are pretty different. For the murder game, we have Battler's deductive skills being tested, but for the sake of acknowledging Yasu on rekindling that romance between them. The bomb is the "bad end" that marks her bet. It's a pure gamble.

On the other hand, the actual murders themselves are something done by a shrewd mind that wants to ensure the deaths of the family members. Essentially, hedging their own bets.

Considering how often she talks about "abandoning herself to the roullette", the actual murders simply isn't consistent with the pure gamble Yasu is claiming to let herself be caught up in.

FirstTwilight

2011-02-05, 17:17

How childish.

Explain Episode 6's fake first twilight before claiming to have debunked the theory in it's entirety. Come, take that assumed wit of yours and put it to some use!

It was already explained in the game. They did if for Erika. Both the pieces and Meta-Battler.

Beatrice.

ahaha.wav
No, seriously. If you are going to claim someone hijacked Yasu fake murder mystery you will have to explain who.

Kinzo is dead.
Krauss is dead. (First Twilight)
Natsuhi is dead. (Shot by.. someone)
Eva is dead. (killed by.. someone. Yasu and Genji lied about the chain)
Hideyoshi is dead (same as Eva)
Rudolf is dead (First Twilight)
Kyrie is dead (First Twilight)
Rosa is dead (First Twilight)
Gohda is dead (First Twilight)
Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo were probably faking it, but they couldn't kill Natsuhi and they follow Yasu orders.

# Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!

We are left with: George, Jessica, Battler, Maria and Yasu. I'm going to exclude Jessica, Battler and Maria for obvious reasons. We are left with Yasu and George.

How did George kill everyone? He was with Battler and Jessica the whole time. Why did Yasu lie about the chain? Please, i'm waiting.

AuraTwilight

2011-02-05, 17:18

I never said she was Rokkenjima Prime culprit. I only said she was the culprit of the stories. Ep. VII made this very clear.

Anyway, if the adults hadn't hijacked her, she would have followed the roulette.

On this part, we don't disagree, and I didn't say otherwise. So I'm not sure why you're arguing this point. You were implying earlier that Yasu was somehow responsible because the games can't contradict reality or whatever.

But it doesn't make sense. Because, after the first twilight Yasu is without a doubt the only culprit. She shot Natsuhi. She stabbed Jessica. She killed Eva and Hideyoshi. She killed Gohda and George and then killed herself. There is no second culprit. She did the things.

Prove it. Moreover, there is a difference between "Yasu" and "Shannon and/or Kanon" as she defines it. She can put in hints of what happened in the reality (or what she planned at least) and mix it with fictions where she is capable of murder.

Ep. V Fake First Twilight doesn't have anything to do with Yasu's roulette. The gold was already found.

Yasu has other motives for faking the First Twilight other than her roulette. She has nothing to gain from people solving the Epitaph, as stated in red.

Sherringford

2011-02-05, 17:19

It's not like they're going to wait in the same place for 12 hours though. For instance, faking the EP1 first twilight works because the "victims" just have to stay in the shed for maybe an hour before being discovered, and then nobody will check on them again.

They could go somewhere else. But if Yasu said "you have to stay there so that you won't risk being caught if you disobey me you are out of the running for the heir game" they would obey.

Even if they did go somewhere else, they would stay hidden from everyone else, which would give Yasu the chance to kill them separately instead of taking them all on at once.

On a purely logistical level, yes. But the motivations are pretty different. For the murder game, we have Battler's deductive skills being tested, but for the sake of acknowledging Yasu on rekindling that romance between them. The bomb is the "bad end" that marks her bet. It's a pure gamble.

On the other hand, the actual murders themselves are something done by a shrewd mind that wants to ensure the deaths of the family members. Essentially, hedging their own bets.

Considering how often talks about "abandoning herself to the roullette", the actual murders simply isn't consistent with the pure gamble Yasu is claiming to let herself be caught up in.

On the pure motivational level, Yasu wrote those stories. She's so sweet she gives off diabates. She wouldn't want to write her family members as criminals. So she picked herself(or a fictional version based on herself).

The bet is "if George came to look for Shannon's body, he would see it wasn't there, making everyone reveal the murder game."

Hideyoshi knew about the game, as did Eva. They were killed off for real in the second twilight.

No contradictions, unless you REALLY want to claim that Yasu is okay with portraying a family member as a killer.

Chron

2011-02-05, 17:31

It was already explained in the game. They did if for Erika. Both the pieces and Meta-Battler.
And yet Battler came up with that idea only after he discovered the entire truth. In addition, that very game has an individual go around and commit the murders for real. Which is, once again, "the entire truth". Episode 6 is a confession, after all.

ahaha.wav
No, seriously. If you are going to claim someone hijacked Yasu fake murder mystery you will have to explain who.

Kinzo is dead.
Krauss is dead. (First Twilight)
Natsuhi is dead. (Shot by.. someone)
Eva is dead. (killed by.. someone. Yasu and Genji lied about the chain)
Hideyoshi is dead (same as Eva)
Rudolf is dead (First Twilight)
Kyrie is dead (First Twilight)
Rosa is dead (First Twilight)
Gohda is dead (First Twilight)
Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo were probably faking it, but they couldn't kill Natsuhi and they follow Yasu orders.

# Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!

We are left with: George, Jessica, Battler, Maria and Yasu. I'm going to exclude Jessica, Battler and Maria for obvious reasons. We are left with Yasu and George.

How did George kill everyone? He was with Battler and Jessica the whole time. Why did Yasu lie about the chain? Please, i'm waiting.

Ho-hum, easy enough.

Battler never confirmed anyone's death. He simply saw a bunch of mutilated corpses. Therefore, if any of them were not corpses, but simply people pretending to be dead, then that red is irrelevant. Boom.

The true culprit of the First game was actually Ushiromiya Krauss. He was dragged into the fake murder game by Yasu, and faked his death with the rest of the shed group. He was in on it, and therefore knew that the other adults would go along with it.

How did he get out of the re-locked shed? Simple. Genji simply came by later with snacks meant for the people posing as corpses since that's what Butlers do, Krauss said he needed to use the restroom or some other excuse, and Genji let him out. From there, he proceeded to commit the other twilights. Eva and Hideyoshi never did lock the chain, Krauss just went in, killed them with his manly fists, and then re-set the chain. Or didn't, Genji probably just assumed that the corpses of Eva and Hideyoshi were also part of the murder game.

Krauss at this time then proceeded to stuff Kinzo's corpse in the boiler. When Kanon came down to investigate, he saw what Krauss was doing, and then prepared to kill him in retaliation. Thinking quickly, Yasu killed the Kanon personality for the act of self-preservation and then played dead on the ground in order to avoid Krauss finishing the job.

Then Kanon got up after Nanjo pronounced him dead. The study thing happens, and then Yasu meets up with Maria and the servants. Yasu realizes that Krauss probably won't harm the cousins because he hasn't targetted them yet, and tells her to play dumb. Krauss then comes in and punches the three old people to death. Yasu confirms, and Krauss leaves a letter informing Natsuhi of the situation, or Yasu does. Either way, natsuhi barrels into the hall, confronts Yasu, and prepares to shoot her. But Yasu kills Natsuhi in self-defense, and Krauss dies off-screen with everyone else from the bomb going off.

Easy.

AuraTwilight

2011-02-05, 17:31

What Sherry said. Hypothesis:

Rokkenjima Prime: First Twilight is faked. Culprit X (It could be anyone) hijacked it and killed people.

The Games: First Twilight is faked. Yasu revises things to take the blame for the murders.

Shannon and Kanon do not behave consistently within the stories, and it's very obvious that they use meta-knowledge and such to justify their actions. they're vehicles for the author inserted into the story and thus do not need in-universe motivations or justifications for their actions.

This is all supported within the text.

And yet Battler came up with that idea only after he discovered the entire truth. In addition, that very game has an individual go around and commit the murders for real. Which is, once again, "the entire truth". Episode 6 is a confession, after all.

To add on to this, EP6's purpose is to demonstrate that Battler understands the truth. If the Fake First Twilight thing is bullshit he made up, then this doesn't satisfy anything.

Also, why did Lambda fake the First Twilight in her game? She's not soft at all.

Chron

2011-02-05, 17:41

They could go somewhere else. But if Yasu said "you have to stay there so that you won't risk being caught if you disobey me you are out of the running for the heir game" they would obey.

Even if they did go somewhere else, they would stay hidden from everyone else, which would give Yasu the chance to kill them separately instead of taking them all on at once.Or maybe they just went somewhere else for real and committed the murders themselves?

On the pure motivational level, Yasu wrote those stories. She's so sweet she gives off diabates. She wouldn't want to write her family members as criminals. So she picked herself(or a fictional version based on herself).

The bet is "if George came to look for Shannon's body, he would see it wasn't there, making everyone reveal the murder game."

Hideyoshi knew about the game, as did Eva. They were killed off for real in the second twilight.

No contradictions, unless you REALLY want to claim that Yasu is okay with portraying a family member as a killer.

She really hates Gohda. Or Kanon does. She also seems to seriously hate Eva from the way she portrayed Eva as a complete bitch in her two stories. Maybe Eva faked her death and simply allowed George to motorboat her? Hideyoshi wasn't supposed to actually die, but he passed out from all the steam in the bathroom and slammed the stake into his forehead for realz?

The only one Battler gets a good look at is Hideyoshi, if I remember correctly. On the other hand, if we're going to look at things from the perspective that yasu wouldn't want to portray any members of the family as murderers, once again, we have the fact that Yasu really does seem to actively dislike some members of the family. Natsuhi for the way she is so hard on the servants and Jessica. Krauss...for being kind of a dick to the family at large. Eva, for the way she is always so hard on Shannon for trying to be with George. Hideyoshi, for pretending he's from Kansai. George for being fat. Battler for being an idiot. Jessica for being in the closet.

I could go on.

Sherringford

2011-02-05, 17:51

Or maybe they just went somewhere else for real and committed the murders themselves?

I won't tolerate this kind of reasoning. There is no clue for this or your Krauss culprit theory. Raising stupid possibilities is not the way to go if you want to understand the story.

She really hates Gohda. Or Kanon does.

Wrong. She says that Gohda also had a really nice side to him, he was just a bit of a jerk at times.

She also seems to seriously hate Eva from the way she portrayed Eva as a complete bitch in her two stories.

She doesn't need to have Eva to correctly portray her. So long Eva is a bitch, there is no evidence for Shannon hating her.

Maybe Eva faked her death and simply allowed George to motorboat her? Hideyoshi wasn't supposed to actually die, but he passed out from all the steam in the bathroom and slammed the stake into his forehead for realz?

Assuming accidents and improbable fakes is not the way to go. Let's give George some credit, he would notice if his mother was alive. Assuming Hideyoshi died by accident is ridiculous. There is no evidence to support that theory.

The only one Battler gets a good look at is Hideyoshi, if I remember correctly. On the other hand, if we're going to look at things from the perspective that yasu wouldn't want to portray any members of the family as murderers, once again, we have the fact that Yasu really does seem to actively dislike some members of the family. Natsuhi for the way she is so hard on the servants and Jessica. Krauss...for being kind of a dick to the family at large. Eva, for the way she is always so hard on Shannon for trying to be with George. Hideyoshi, for pretending he's from Kansai. George for being fat. Battler for being an idiot. Jessica for being in the closet.

I could go on.

Yeah you know, you are confusing "dislike certain things that person does" with "I HATE THAT PERSON'S SOUL."

She found Natsuhi be harsh on everyone, yet portrayed her sympathetically in episode 1. What then? That means she liked Natsuhi, just didn't like how she was harsh on everyone. But she understood she had to be harsh. Krauss was hardly more of a dick than the rest of the family, he merely outdicked them.

No. Merely not liking CERTAIN ASPECTS of someone doesn't mean you hate them enough for you to portray them as murderers, especially considering how saintly Yasu is portrayed as.

FirstTwilight

2011-02-05, 17:55

And yet Battler came up with that idea only after he discovered the entire truth. In addition, that very game has an individual go around and commit the murders for real. Which is, once again, "the entire truth". Episode 6 is a confession, after all.

Ho-hum, easy enough.

Battler never confirmed anyone's death. He simply saw a bunch of mutilated corpses. Therefore, if any of them were not corpses, but simply people pretending to be dead, then that red is irrelevant. Boom.

The true culprit of the First game was actually Ushiromiya Krauss. He was dragged into the fake murder game by Yasu, and faked his death with the rest of the shed group. He was in on it, and therefore knew that the other adults would go along with it.

How did he get out of the re-locked shed? Simple. Genji simply came by later with snacks meant for the people posing as corpses since that's what Butlers do, Krauss said he needed to use the restroom or some other excuse, and Genji let him out. From there, he proceeded to commit the other twilights. Eva and Hideyoshi never did lock the chain, Krauss just went in, killed them with his manly fists, and then re-set the chain. Or didn't, Genji probably just assumed that the corpses of Eva and Hideyoshi were also part of the murder game.

Krauss at this time then proceeded to stuff Kinzo's corpse in the boiler. When Kanon came down to investigate, he saw what Krauss was doing, and then prepared to kill him in retaliation. Thinking quickly, Yasu killed the Kanon personality for the act of self-preservation and then played dead on the ground in order to avoid Krauss finishing the job.

Then Kanon got up after Nanjo pronounced him dead. The study thing happens, and then Yasu meets up with Maria and the servants. Yasu realizes that Krauss probably won't harm the cousins because he hasn't targetted them yet, and tells her to play dumb. Krauss then comes in and punches the three old people to death. Yasu confirms, and Krauss leaves a letter informing Natsuhi of the situation, or Yasu does. Either way, natsuhi barrels into the hall, confronts Yasu, and prepares to shoot her. But Yasu kills Natsuhi in self-defense, and Krauss dies off-screen with everyone else from the bomb going off.

Easy.

Battler saw half of Krauss' face. The faceless bodies were guaranteed to be dead in red.

This is pretty hardcode fanfiction stuffs. Also, Yasu doesn't have personalities.

and
# All of the survivors have alibis! Let us include the dead as well!! In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!
# Kanon did not commit suicide

Chron

2011-02-05, 18:04

I won't tolerate this kind of reasoning. There is no clue for this or your Krauss culprit theory. Raising stupid possibilities is not the way to go if you want to understand the story. Ignoring the possibilities in the zealous pursuit of a single belief isn't the way to understand the story either.

Clearly the Krauss culprit is stupid. But it serves the purpose it was made for.

Wrong. She says that Gohda also had a really nice side to him, he was just a bit of a jerk at times. Everyone has a nice side to them on Rokkenjimma, Yasu herself is sweet beyond rational belief.

And yet someone there was a murderer. Someone having redeeming qualities doesn't make them innocent.

She doesn't need to have Eva to correctly portray her. So long Eva is a bitch, there is no evidence for Shannon hating her. The argument here isn't that Shannon hates her. But that Shannon doesn't possess an overwhelming fondness of the person, and on the basis that she likes Eva, therefore would not implicate her as a culprit.

Assuming accidents and improbable fakes is not the way to go. Let's give George some credit, he would notice if his mother was alive. Assuming Hideyoshi died by accident is ridiculous. There is no evidence to support that theory.
It's hardly a theory, it's simply a contradiction.

Yeah you know, you are confusing "dislike certain things that person does" with "I HATE THAT PERSON'S SOUL." I never said Yasu did hate them, simply that she possessed some resentment towards them. The last three I mentioned should have made that incredibly clear.

She found Natsuhi be harsh on everyone, yet portrayed her sympathetically in episode 1. What then? That means she liked Natsuhi, just didn't like how she was harsh on everyone. But she understood she had to be harsh. Krauss was hardly more of a dick than the rest of the family, he merely outdicked them. Ok?

No. Merely not liking CERTAIN ASPECTS of someone doesn't mean you hate them enough for you to portray them as murderers, especially considering how saintly Yasu is portrayed as.I never said Yasu portrayed anyone as murderers. Simply that Yasu painted them in less than complimentary lights.

Chron

2011-02-05, 18:06

Battler saw half of Krauss' face. The faceless bodies were guaranteed to be dead in red.

This is pretty hardcode fanfiction stuffs. Also, Yasu doesn't have personalities.

and
# All of the survivors have alibis! Let us include the dead as well!! In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!
# Kanon did not commit suicide

If not personalities, then "roles" or whatever purposes Shkannon serves for Yasu. As a matter of fact, Shkannon pretty much makes those reds pointless for the sake of this argument.

As far as the "identified" bit goes about seeing half of Krauss' face, doesn't that simply re-inforce my point about the worthlessness of the "unidentified corpses being guarenteed" red?

FirstTwilight

2011-02-05, 18:14

As far as the "identified" bit goes about seeing half of Krauss' face, doesn't that simply re-inforce my point about the worthlessness of the "unidentified corpses being guarenteed" red?

So are you saying Krauss faked half of his face missing? I don't understand.

And uh, Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!

Do you want to know what happened?

Yasu kills the six for the first twilight. The method is not important, she shoots them or serves poisoned tea. Genji helps her.

Later, she goes to Eva and Hideyoshi and she kills them. Genji lies about the chain. She then fakes her death in the boiler room with Nanjo help. (Jessica is fooled).

Genji places the letter in Kinzo study and the remaining servants get kicked out.
They fake their death. Then Yasu kills Natsuhi.

Bomb

The end.

Witch of Uncertainty

2011-02-05, 18:34

Hmm, about the poison tea. That isn't allowed now, is it?

FirstTwilight

2011-02-05, 18:38

Hmm, about the poison tea. That isn't allowed now, is it?

Maria was definite killed with poison or something like that in Ep. IV.
And why shouldn't it be permitted? It's a simple method of murder.

Sherringford

2011-02-05, 18:42

Ignoring the possibilities in the zealous pursuit of a single belief isn't the way to understand the story either.

Clearly the Krauss culprit is stupid. But it serves the purpose it was made for.

Everyone has a nice side to them on Rokkenjimma, Yasu herself is sweet beyond rational belief.

And yet someone there was a murderer. Someone having redeeming qualities doesn't make them innocent.

The argument here isn't that Shannon hates her. But that Shannon doesn't possess an overwhelming fondness of the person, and on the basis that she likes Eva, therefore would not implicate her as a culprit.

It's hardly a theory, it's simply a contradiction.

I never said Yasu did hate them, simply that she possessed some resentment towards them. The last three I mentioned should have made that incredibly clear.

Ok?
I never said Yasu portrayed anyone as murderers. Simply that Yasu painted them in less than complimentary lights.

Yasu is portrayed as a diabetes inducing being. Unless you can imagine that being making someone other than herself turn out to be the murderer, your reasoning stops right there.

And uh, Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!

The logic people want to argue is that "if they aren't dead, they aren't corpses." Which is...stupid, but it fits within Umineko's own internal logic.

AuraTwilight

2011-02-05, 18:45

So are you saying Krauss faked half of his face missing? I don't understand.

And uh, Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!

This only says that their identities are guaranteed. THIS DOES NOT ACTUALLY SAY THAT THEY'RE DEAD.

You're putting your implicit assumptions into the Red, just like Battler was tricked into thinking the chapel door was locked.

Do you want to know what happened?

Yasu kills the six for the first twilight. The method is not important, she shoots them or serves poisoned tea. Genji helps her.

Later, she goes to Eva and Hideyoshi and she kills them. Genji lies about the chain. She then fakes her death in the boiler room with Nanjo help. (Jessica is fooled).

Genji places the letter in Kinzo study and the remaining servants get kicked out.
They fake their death. Then Yasu kills Natsuhi.

Bomb

The end.

Poisons are not allowed. The method is important. If you can't explain the Howdunnit, then it doesn't matter if you have a Whodunnit or Whydunnit. You have to prove that a human did it or you can't deny the witch. Shooting them does not work. She cannot kill them and drag the bodies because the interior of the mansion is too clean for that possibility. Moreover, the bodies don't have any hint of being damp from the rain like they would be if they were dragged. Did Yasu hold umbrellas over corpses, or did they walk there themselves using umbrellas? If the latter, why?

Why does Genji lie about the chain? Why do the last three victims fake their deaths? What purpose does it serve for them to do so?

You're not answering anything. You're just denying an idea you don't like without actually raising any valid objections, and to get around it you give a halfassed explanation with no heart behind it that actually raises more questions.

Maria was definite killed with poison or something like that in Ep. IV.
And why shouldn't it be permitted? It's a simple method of murder.

Maria also could've been strangled. Then again, Maria's death may be a suicide, so what's going on with her seems pretty exceptional anyway.

The logic people want to argue is that "if they aren't dead, they aren't corpses." Which is...stupid, but it fits within Umineko's own internal logic.

In fairness, it's not as stupid as the idea that Yasu managed to drag five big, large, strong individuals to a shed and then killed them because....??? (for some reason)

Judoh

2011-02-05, 18:49

The logic people want to argue is that "if they aren't dead, they aren't corpses." Which is...stupid, but it fits within Umineko's own internal logic.

It also helps that the unidentified corpses red only refers to the corpses that have no face at all. Krauss can be identified.

Genji places the letter in Kinzo study and the remaining servants get kicked out. They fake their death.

BTW you're saying these people fake their death, when they're missing their faces as well, and you say you don't get how the people in the shed can do it? What's up with that?

AuraTwilight

2011-02-05, 18:51

It's because he has no actual point or leg to stand on.

Sherringford

2011-02-05, 18:52

In fairness, it's not as stupid as the idea that Yasu managed to drag five big, large, strong individuals to a shed and then killed them because....??? (for some reason)

Oh sure, it's less stupid than the alternative. But it's still stupid that Battler somehow REALLY thought Krauss was dead*. I suppose Ryuukishi tried to use the same trick from Detective Academy Q to explain it, but didn't quite do enough.

FirstTwilight

2011-02-05, 19:09

This only says that their identities are guaranteed. THIS DOES NOT ACTUALLY SAY THAT THEY'RE DEAD.

You're putting your implicit assumptions into the Red, just like Battler was tricked into thinking the chapel door was locked.

There are no double bodies and half of them had their face smashed. How the fuck did they fake that? How do you fake your head MISSING?
But not only that. How did people in Ep. 2 fake their intestines missing? How did George and Gohda fake their whatever missing? How did Yasu fake a hole in her head?

Also, where did they get the stakes? You know, the one that Yasu had.

Poisons are not allowed. The method is important. If you can't explain the Howdunnit, then it doesn't matter if you have a Whodunnit or Whydunnit.
You have to prove that a human did it or you can't deny the witch. Shooting them does not work. She cannot kill them and drag the bodies because the interior of the mansion is too clean for that possibility.

Then how was Maria killed in Ep. IV? Magic?

If you can't explain the Howdunnit,

The roulette of fate.

I think it's actually better than

"I did a fake murder mystery with zero possibilities of being solved and ending well because Battler and the others are crybabies and the adults are crazy and need money and even i knew that. I also send moneys to people because"

Moreover, the bodies don't have any hint of being damp from the rain like they would be if they were dragged. Did Yasu hold umbrellas over corpses, or did they walk there themselves using umbrellas? If the latter, why?

She had help. Genji, maybe even Nanjo and Kumasawa.

Why does Genji lie about the chain?

Because Genji is overfixate with loyalty, he allowed the fantasy of a madman that raped his daughter FOR YEARS and manipulated the life of a boy/girl for her crazy rapist father.

Why do the last three victims fake their deaths? What purpose does it serve for them to do so?

They are accomplices. They can be really dead for what i care, they are going to blow up in seconds anyway.

Maria also could've been strangled. Then again, Maria's death may be a suicide, so what's going on with her seems pretty exceptional anyway.

There were no signs on her body. And we knew Shkanontrice was the last one to die. And if she suicided, what did she take?

Witch of Uncertainty

2011-02-05, 19:32

Maria was definite killed with poison or something like that in Ep. IV.
And why shouldn't it be permitted? It's a simple method of murder.

Doesn't it violate with Knox 10, Which umineko follows?
It is forbidden for unknown drugs or hard to understand scientific devices to be used.

AuraTwilight

2011-02-05, 19:35

There are no double bodies and half of them had their face smashed. How the fuck did they fake that? How do you fake your head MISSING?
But not only that. How did people in Ep. 2 fake their intestines missing? How did George and Gohda fake their whatever missing? How did Yasu fake a hole in her head?

Also, where did they get the stakes? You know, the one that Yasu had.

Again, no one is saying that any later Twilights are faked. Stop being a retard and get your dick out of your face. I know you're capable of reading and understanding what I have to say.

No one's entire half of a head is missing, and it's possible to fake having your face missing with makeup. It's not like Yasu can't afford Hollywood-quality professional makeup.

Then how was Maria killed in Ep. IV? Magic?

Suffocation.

The roulette of fate.

I think it's actually better than

"I did a fake murder mystery with zero possibilities of being solved and ending well because Battler and the others are crybabies and the adults are crazy and need money and even i knew that. I also send moneys to people because"

That's not a Howdunnit. Do you know what the term means?

She had help. Genji, maybe even Nanjo and Kumasawa.

And why are they helping Yasu commit mass murder?

Because Genji is overfixate with loyalty, he allowed the fantasy of a madman that raped his daughter FOR YEARS and manipulated the life of a boy/girl for her crazy rapist father.

If Genji was as you say, he'd of just let Kinzo have at Yasu. Genji did not condone Kinzo's actions, and did what he did in order to allow Kinzo an oppurtunity to redeem himself for his actions. This is not a man who would robotically be complicit in mass murder.

There were no signs on her body. And we knew Shkanontrice was the last one to die. And if she suicided, what did she take?

Suffocation doesn't always leave marks. And the use of poison isn't forbidden for suicide, since suicide is not murder.