View Full Version : [Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 7 Requiem of the golden witch
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Thanatos of Crows
2011-02-28, 16:33
But the reality of a fiction is still simply fiction, so unless you were told to expect life-like events and probabilities you should be abel to stomach things you normally do in fiction. Some things Ange does in Alliance are presented in a way the would in fiction -even though they happen in the series' reality- instead of in a documentary way that strictly follows "rules" accepted as realistic.
rogerpepitone
2011-02-28, 16:44
Such a story would quickly be sussed as fake. The whole point is that Kanon and Shannon appear to be such minor characters that they pass notice, and no one really knows who the Ushiromiya's servants were vs. the actual visible and public family members.
That aside, neither Shannon or Kanon behave in a manner consistent with being Yasu in the stories of ep1-4. And they almost always speak of the higher entities to themselves (presumably their creator, and also Battler) in the third person.
I'm of the opinion the author did this on purpose, as a hint to guide those to whom the message bottle stories were intended to reach (namely, Battler).Because in a mystery story, disguises can be foolproof and shooters never miss their targets. It's a fictional conceit, and easier to swallow there than in reality. In reality, it's unlikely you could fool people like that. In a story, it's trivial; it's an expected genre convention.
; そして最後に黄金の魔女ベアトリーチェが蘇り、全てを黄金郷に飲み込む。……まるで、それこそが当日の 全容であるかのように記されていました。
`And in the end, the Golden Witch Beatrice revived, and everything was flung into the Golden Land. ......It was written almost as though it was a complete account of the events on that day.
; また、当時の島の状況についても非常に詳しく描写されており、右代宮家に勤務したことがある元の使用人 たちは、間違いなく内部に詳しい人間が書いたに違いないと証言しました。」
`Also, it depicted the current situation on the island at the time in great detail, and the former servants who used to work for the Ushiromiya family gave testimony that it had definitely been written by a human who knew the inside details of the island."
;「……その、おかしな幻想小説と右代宮蔵書以降のオカルトブーム、そして、結局は真相は闇の中という３つ が合わさり、六軒島の魔女伝説を生み出したと…？」
`"......So, because of a combination of the occult boom from that strange fantasy novel and the Ushiromiya Library, and well as the fact that the truth remained shrouded in darkness, the legend of the Rokkenjima witch was born...?"
;「左様です。すでに１０年以上が経過した事件ですが、未だに世界のオカルトマニアの関心を集め ています。
I'd say that the former servants interviewed would have been in a position to notice whether or not Shannon or Kanon had worked there.
Thanatos of Crows
2011-02-28, 16:53
The thing is, you're going to the opposite extreme and acting as if Chiru absolutely should not be used to solve the earlier episodes; Ryukishi only said it was possible to do so, not that they couldn't help. I remind you that Battler learned The Truth with the help of Episode 5; something in it made everything click for him.
Not exactly. I said it already in another post that the Chriu episodes are meant to help us understand the truth and not hide it. In this case it just happens that the accident with Yasu is just a detail that expands the characters, as opposed to things such as confirming the possibility of fake deaths or the introduction of Knox's Decalogue (which was made it click for Battler as he re-read the first four with those in mind) and Will putting Clare to sleep which confirmed most of my theories. Of course the Chiru episodes are meant to help us solve the case but not every little detail counts, especially when most of the things confirmed -or hinted- as true in Chiru were atleast suggested or mentioned in some form in earlier games
AuraTwilight
2011-02-28, 16:54
Shannon, maybe, but Kanon only worked there for three years, and like most servants, they all took different shifts; Shannon and Kanon might never work at the same time except on the Conference and the other times when romance issues are brought up, for all we know. Interviewing the old servants doesn't necessarily mean much because there's a statistical possibility that they never met him (and if unsure, they could just assume he was because they read about him).
I'd say that the former servants interviewed would have been in a position to notice whether or not Shannon or Kanon had worked there.We don't know when those servants worked there or for how long or who they worked with. If Yasu were there as "Shannon," for example, a person who had worked there and met a "Shannon" would probably nod and say "Oh yes, I knew that girl Shannon, so these details must be accurate." Or they retired years before and said "Well, I've never heard of those particular servants, but Fukuin servants rotated in and out all the time so that sounds right." It's easy enough to poke holes in such a vague confirmation, as long as nothing obvious is broken.
You find me a servant - or Ange, or anyone really - who sits down and explicitly says "Oh yes, this one time Shannon sent me out looking for another servant, Kanon, and it took me hours to find him!"
I just don't find it plausible that anyone would disguise as two people for either no reason whatsoever, or to explicitly set up a future circumstance in which those two personas are needed to exist as separate characters, whether in play-acting or in fiction.
AuraTwilight
2011-02-28, 17:06
I just don't find it plausible that anyone would disguise as two people for either no reason whatsoever, or to explicitly set up a future circumstance in which those two personas are needed to exist as separate characters, whether in play-acting or in fiction.
The same reason she wants her Beatrice persona to be accepted; when Yasu creates a character, it's not enough to pretend to herself; she wants other people to accept that she has "created" an actual person. It's empowering to her.
The same reason she wants her Beatrice persona to be accepted; when Yasu creates a character, it's not enough to pretend to herself; she wants other people to accept that she has "created" an actual person. It's empowering to her.That's ridiculous.
I'm not saying that your idea that this is the case is ridiculous, but that the idea itself is ridiculous, and if Ryukishi wants me to seriously invest in that idea, he is delusional.
Leafsnail
2011-02-28, 17:11
...Isn't that pretty much what Beatrice is doing for the first 4 arcs?
Acknowledging Beatrice herself is a false win condition and not Beatrice's goal. So it's actually exactly the opposite of that; she wants Battler to look beyond the characters she's created (Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice aren't "her") and find the real person.
rogerpepitone
2011-02-28, 17:40
We don't know when those servants worked there or for how long or who they worked with. If Yasu were there as "Shannon," for example, a person who had worked there and met a "Shannon" would probably nod and say "Oh yes, I knew that girl Shannon, so these details must be accurate." Or they retired years before and said "Well, I've never heard of those particular servants, but Fukuin servants rotated in and out all the time so that sounds right." It's easy enough to poke holes in such a vague confirmation, as long as nothing obvious is broken.
You find me a servant - or Ange, or anyone really - who sits down and explicitly says "Oh yes, this one time Shannon sent me out looking for another servant, Kanon, and it took me hours to find him!"
I just don't find it plausible that anyone would disguise as two people for either no reason whatsoever, or to explicitly set up a future circumstance in which those two personas are needed to exist as separate characters, whether in play-acting or in fiction.
That's a pretty crappy confirmation, then. I'd expect somebody trying to verify the messages as trying to get confirmation on particular details like "Yes, Natsuhi was obsessive about having all the doors and windows locked, even though we lived on the island."." In particular, Manon is mentioned as having been on the island at the same time as Shannon and Kanon; I'd expect her to mention if she hadn't met Kanon. And I would expect mention of things like "Gohda really was just as good of a chef as it said, and Shannon could be a bit scatterbrained. I never met Kanon during all my time there.", and I'd expect somebody to notice if no other servant had ever met Kanon.
Well, there's always the prospect that there really were two of them!
It would be pretty easy to cross-reference Fukuin records, more than anything, as that would definitively prove there was no Kanon... unless that 70s Shannon really did exist, and Yasu modeled her "Shannon" on another Shannon, and actually was known as Kanon... or any number of other confusing permutations that still make more sense than DISGUISES! ^_^
rogerpepitone
2011-02-28, 17:58
No, I'm sure that the Fukuin records would show Kanon existed, whether he did or not; Genji would have plenty of opportunity to plant fake paperwork.
AuraTwilight
2011-02-28, 18:13
That's ridiculous.
I'm not saying that your idea that this is the case is ridiculous, but that the idea itself is ridiculous, and if Ryukishi wants me to seriously invest in that idea, he is delusional.
Given that Yasu is pretty much delusional, I don't see why it doesn't work.
I mean, yea, there's issues about how it tricked people, but as far as a motive for Yasu herself goes, what's the problem?
Acknowledging Beatrice herself is a false win condition and not Beatrice's goal. So it's actually exactly the opposite of that; she wants Battler to look beyond the characters she's created (Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice aren't "her") and find the real person.
Battler is different from other people for a number of reasons.
And yea, Genji pretty much has the Fukuin house by the balls if he can pass a nine year old off as a six year old and etcetera.
Forget the fukuin records. There is a mandatory school system in Japan, if Kanon existed there should be records of his exams as well as several witnesses.
Lately I've been thinking about the "rokkenjima incident" from the real world society's perspective. There are a few things that I realized.
1) A list of the victims or presumed victims should exist. In the first place if Eva inherited everything, that means that for the society all the Ushiromiya with the exception of Ange and Eva died in that accident, regardless of the lack of corpses. Nanjo and Kumasawa certainly must figure on that list since we know they are assumed they also died in that accident. The event has been reported on magazines and discussed on talk shows, so a list of people that are reported as missing (and therefore presumed dead afterwards) must exist. In that list Shannon must be included with her public name which is probably Sayo Yasuda. Naturally if Kanon doesn't exist in the real world no one must have reported his disappearance nor his existence on Rokkenjima on that day, therefore the fact that he appears in the messages in the bottles two years later should have been something that anyone would think suspicious at first glance. Why this unknown servant that no one ever heard about for two years suddenly shows up in what appear to be the account of the Rokkenjima incident's two days?
People would definitely want to know more about this servant? Right? The talk shows and irresponsible magazine would inquire, right? And if they didn't find any support of this guy's existence wouldn't it be clear to anyone that Kanon doesn't exist?
2) If a list of victims exist, there should also be away to find their handwritings. In this society you can't do anything without filling up modules and signing up documents. So every adult should have left some handwritten stuff in their homes or workplaces. The same goes for the children who must have left some written paper at their respective schools, and that includes Sayo Yasuda as well. So I wonder... shouldn't witch hunters like Ootsukii and his companions think about comparing the victims' handwriting with the messages in the bottle's handwritings? If not them the talk shows? The magazines? The police? I'm sure there are experts that would definitely find who among the victims wrote the messages even if the handwriting was somehow altered.
3) We know very little for sure about what those messages talked about, however we know that they all have in common that in the end 18 people die. Now I really can't think that Kanon doesn't figure in those stories, if that was true then shkanon would be even more pointless than already is, it wouldn't even be fictional. So we can only conclude that Ange isn't among those 18 people. But how "Beatrice" knew that? Battler's return to the family register must have happened earlier but the main family was only informed of Ange's absence the 3rd October right? How could "Beatrice" wrote two stories (or even more) in that little time?
I thought that maybe she wrote the stories before and then she fixed them by removing Ange. That would in fact explain some odd things like the fact that the cousins don't even mention her and say stuff like "all cousins are finally gathered". But even this interpretation has some problems. Why would Beatrice bother to make that change? To make her story more believable? She should have rather worried about the fact that no one would really die... unless she knew that everyone would die. So in other words, no matter how you look at it, those messages should look definitely suspicious from a real world's perspective.
4) How can the "Battler" in those stories be a reliable representation of the real Battler? With the exception of Rudolf and Kyrie (who certainly didn't write those stories) the last time everyone else saw Battler was when he was 12 years old. A person can change a lot from the age of 12 to the age of 18, not only in look but also on personality. How could "Beatrice" know details like the "breast sommelier" joke?
5) There are a few things that Ange herself should be able to confirm, She was very little at the time but usually people remember what happened when they were 5 years old. What she should remember is if she saw her Grandfather at all in 1985. That would definitely confirm or deny what was reported in the messages. The other thing that she should remember is Kanon. The messages show that at least Hideyoshi remembered him, so he must have been present on the past family meetings. If Ange doesn't remember him she should easily realize that there's something wrong with this servant.
6) There are several facts mentioned in the messages that should be easy to confirm or debunk in the real world. For example we know that the existence of Kuwadorian was confirmed. The existence of the ingot should also be easy to confirm. After all according to the story not only that ingot was taken long time before but it was also recently retrieved by Krauss. Finding which bank was that shouldn't be that hard, you just need to check who Kinzo received money from. Also Krauss mentioned a squad of experts that checked the island, it should be possible to retrace those people, it should also be possible to ask them what they found and there's no way they didn't find the kuwadorian. The existence of the old military base should have also become apparent unless the government classified that information.
If Krauss' boat was really left on Niijima for maintenance right before the incident, it should still be there. Several ex fukuin servants that worked on the Kuwadorian should be able to tell what they know without any obligation to maintain the secret. After all, all the persons involved are dead, and I'm sure they wouldn't refuse the chance to appear on a talk show, certainly not all of them. And not only the fukuin servants. Genji and Kinzo certainly didn't build everything by themselves. that stylish secret room in the depth of Rokkenjima for example, who built it? Who made the pavement? Who painted the walls? Who brought the furnitures? Who created the electric system? And if there's a bathroom as well, who made all the necessary works? That stuff wasn't made by the military, that's for sure. And who built that complex epitaph mechanism? You need some skilled artisans and an architect to make all that custom stuff. Wouldn't they know the solution of Kinzo's epitaph already?
So in the end there's really a lot of stuff that one should be able to dig up with just mediocre investigation skills.
Forget that (well, don't forget it, but to add to it); consider the portrait.
Who the hell was the artist!? What did Kinzo (or Genji) say when he contracted the paintings (remember, there's the one in the main hall and apparently also one in the study)? Was there a photograph of Beatrice Castiglioni or Beatrice-2? Did someone physically pose for it? If so, who? What was the painter told about the work he/she would be making?
ErenselTheJester
2011-02-28, 19:55
Well, obviously, we don't need to care about all that. This story has enough holes in it already, if we find anymore, there'll be nothing left.
However, if we use the "Author's theory," it can be explained that letters might have been counterfeits by someone else instead of the original Beatrice, in which there would be no trustworthy interpretation of any of the characters other than Ep 3 and beyond, where we can at least trust Featherine.
Well the first message was supposedly found right after the incident, so it's very unlikely that it was a fake. Also EP4 seems to confirm that the handwriting is truly Beatrice's.
AuraTwilight
2011-02-28, 20:06
Forget the fukuin records. There is a mandatory school system in Japan, if Kanon existed there should be records of his exams as well as several witnesses.
This is a good point, actually. But since no one knows Kanon's real name, how can they look this up? There'd be the false Fukuin records, but if Genji can go that far, he can probably forge a school record or something.
1) A list of the victims or presumed victims should exist. In the first place if Eva inherited everything, that means that for the society all the Ushiromiya with the exception of Ange and Eva died in that accident, regardless of the lack of corpses. Nanjo and Kumasawa certainly must figure on that list since we know they are assumed they also died in that accident. The event has been reported on magazines and discussed on talk shows, so a list of people that are reported as missing (and therefore presumed dead afterwards) must exist. In that list Shannon must be included with her public name which is probably Sayo Yasuda. Naturally if Kanon doesn't exist in the real world no one must have reported his disappearance nor his existence on Rokkenjima on that day, therefore the fact that he appears in the messages in the bottles two years later should have been something that anyone would think suspicious at first glance. Why this unknown servant that no one ever heard about for two years suddenly shows up in what appear to be the account of the Rokkenjima incident's two days?
People would definitely want to know more about this servant? Right? The talk shows and irresponsible magazine would inquire, right? And if they didn't find any support of this guy's existence wouldn't it be clear to anyone that Kanon doesn't exist?
Wait a sec, two years later? I'm pretty sure the record bottles showed up sooner than that?
That aside, why wouldn't Kanon's existence be reported? Eva survived and, assuming R-Prime Shkanon, she'd probably be like "Who the fuck is this Kanon dude?"
2) If a list of victims exist, there should also be away to find their handwritings. In this society you can't do anything without filling up modules and signing up documents. So every adult should have left some handwritten stuff in their homes or workplaces. The same goes for the children who must have left some written paper at their respective schools, and that includes Sayo Yasuda as well. So I wonder... shouldn't witch hunters like Ootsukii and his companions think about comparing the victims' handwriting with the messages in the bottle's handwritings? If not them the talk shows? The magazines? The police? I'm sure there are experts that would definitely find who among the victims wrote the messages even if the handwriting was somehow altered.
It's SIGNED. The Witch Hunters haven't shown themselves to be that clever, and Ange was the only person who questioned it that we know about because she has direct insider information.
3) We know very little for sure about what those messages talked about, however we know that they all have in common that in the end 18 people die. Now I really can't think that Kanon doesn't figure in those stories, if that was true then shkanon would be even more pointless than already is, it wouldn't even be fictional. So we can only conclude that Ange isn't among those 18 people. But how "Beatrice" knew that? Battler's return to the family register must have happened earlier but the main family was only informed of Ange's absence the 3rd October right? How could "Beatrice" wrote two stories (or even more) in that little time?
I thought that maybe she wrote the stories before and then she fixed them by removing Ange. That would in fact explain some odd things like the fact that the cousins don't even mention her and say stuff like "all cousins are finally gathered". But even this interpretation has some problems. Why would Beatrice bother to make that change? To make her story more believable? She should have rather worried about the fact that no one would really die... unless she knew that everyone would die. So in other words, no matter how you look at it, those messages should look definitely suspicious from a real world's perspective.
I like the latter idea that Ange was removed in editing; but the reason everyone died would tie into their purpose: Games for Battler. They were probably never intended to actually be believed as real; it's just an incidental problem that arose after the murders happened.
4) How can the "Battler" in those stories be a reliable representation of the real Battler? With the exception of Rudolf and Kyrie (who certainly didn't write those stories) the last time everyone else saw Battler was when he was 12 years old. A person can change a lot from the age of 12 to the age of 18, not only in look but also on personality. How could "Beatrice" know details like the "breast sommelier" joke?
It's 12 year old Battler as an adult; that's it. People have mentioned he hasn't changed much, and it would explain Battler's idealism and over-naive personality. I can totally believe that a 12 year old thinks it's okay to, say, lie to his sister in order to make her happy.
5) There are a few things that Ange herself should be able to confirm, She was very little at the time but usually people remember what happened when they were 5 years old. What she should remember is if she saw her Grandfather at all in 1985. That would definitely confirm or deny what was reported in the messages. The other thing that she should remember is Kanon. The messages show that at least Hideyoshi remembered him, so he must have been present on the past family meetings. If Ange doesn't remember him she should easily realize that there's something wrong with this servant.
NO ONE saw Kinzo in 1985. He was doing his "derpderp locked in the study" bullshit according to Krauss and Natsuhi. Kanon may or may not have been working that year, but assuming he was, even Battler didn't end up seeing him until the 5th in some Episodes.
6) There are several facts mentioned in the messages that should be easy to confirm or debunk in the real world. For example we know that the existence of Kuwadorian was confirmed. The existence of the ingot should also be easy to confirm. After all according to the story not only that ingot was taken long time before but it was also recently retrieved by Krauss. Finding which bank was that shouldn't be that hard, you just need to check who Kinzo received money from. Also Krauss mentioned a squad of experts that checked the island, it should be possible to retrace those people, it should also be possible to ask them what they found and there's no way they didn't find the kuwadorian. The existence of the old military base should have also become apparent unless the government classified that information.
I guarantee the government classified that shit. The rest of that stuff is easy; though I suspect Krauss never conducted any island search and he was bullshitting, since it happened during his money crisis.
If Krauss' boat was really left on Niijima for maintenance right before the incident, it should still be there. Several ex fukuin servants that worked on the Kuwadorian should be able to tell what they know without any obligation to maintain the secret. After all, all the persons involved are dead, and I'm sure they wouldn't refuse the chance to appear on a talk show, certainly not all of them. And not only the fukuin servants. Genji and Kinzo certainly didn't build everything by themselves. that stylish secret room in the depth of Rokkenjima for example, who built it? Who made the pavement? Who painted the walls? Who brought the furnitures? Who created the electric system? And if there's a bathroom as well, who made all the necessary works? That stuff wasn't made by the military, that's for sure. And who built that complex epitaph mechanism? You need some skilled artisans and an architect to make all that custom stuff. Wouldn't they know the solution of Kinzo's epitaph already?
You gotta remember all that shit was laid down in the 40's. It might not be possible to contact them anymore.
Who the hell was the artist!? What did Kinzo (or Genji) say when he contracted the paintings (remember, there's the one in the main hall and apparently also one in the study)? Was there a photograph of Beatrice Castiglioni or Beatrice-2? Did someone physically pose for it? If so, who? What was the painter told about the work he/she would be making?
My guess is Kumasawa made it. Totally. It's one of the only ways she can end up being as relevant as she was implied, now. She's not "the original Beatrice", she's CLAIR.
My guess is Kumasawa made it. Totally. It's one of the only ways she can end up being as relevant as she was implied, now. She's not "the original Beatrice", she's CLAIR.
There's also the theory that she co-authored the epitaph. She had notes on the epitaph despite the fact that she knew of Kuwadorian's existence so while it's not outright said all the ingredients are there for us to assume she helped write it. I never thought of her being the portrait painter though. That'd add a lot of credibility to it.
This is a good point, actually. But since no one knows Kanon's real name, how can they look this up? There'd be the false Fukuin records, but if Genji can go that far, he can probably forge a school record or something.
But if someone among the fukuin children disappeared someone would know.
And here the issue is not if Kanon actually existed, but if he was even made to appear as existing.
If Genji manipulated some records as you say then we would be able to exclude the fictional shkanon theory, conversely if no record of Kanon existed at all, then fictional shkanon theory would be confirmed.
Wait a sec, two years later? I'm pretty sure the record bottles showed up sooner than that?
One bottle was found early by the police. The second bottle was found two years later. And only after that was found the first was made public. All of this was explained by Ootsuki in EP4.
It's SIGNED. The Witch Hunters haven't shown themselves to be that clever, and Ange was the only person who questioned it that we know about because she has direct insider information.
Hmm I think Ootsuki said something about the handwriting being definitely different from Maria's. As of the witch hunters incompetence, I can't deny that, but my very point was to show how strange it is that among that many people, including reporters and police there isn't even a single competent person.
It's 12 year old Battler as an adult; that's it. People have mentioned he hasn't changed much, and it would explain Battler's idealism and over-naive personality. I can totally believe that a 12 year old thinks it's okay to...
Well that's my point, the people who have mentioned he didn't change that much are still characters in a fiction. So in other words the Battler we have seen is not the real 18 years old Battler.
NO ONE saw Kinzo in 1985. He was doing his "derpderp locked in the study" bullshit according to Krauss and Natsuhi. Kanon may or may not have been working that year, but assuming he was, even Battler didn't end up seeing him until the 5th in some Episodes.
How can you tell that with certainty? The only truly reliable perspective is the one from 1998 in the end. We have just realized that "Battler" cannot be the real Battler.
I guarantee the government classified that shit. The rest of that stuff is easy; though I suspect Krauss never conducted any island search and he was bullshitting, since it happened during his money crisis.
Ha ha, well don't take it bad, but your "guarantee" isn't worth that much from my perspective, unless you can provide any substantial proof that you can do that.
You gotta remember all that shit was laid down in the 40's. It might not be possible to contact them anymore.
no earlier than 1950 actually. That's when Kinzo bought the island. The mansion construction was completed at around 1956, so I suppose that about the time when everything was built. So in other words about 30 years before the accident. Yeah I guess it would be a little hard to trace every person involved, but still... not impossible since there should be a lot.
rogerpepitone
2011-02-28, 20:53
Its possible to track down the people who built the mansion, but it'll take money to do so.
Side comment: Getting samples of handwriting of the younger characters might be difficult. Any schools would be likely to refuse a non-police inquiry, and the police have closed their investigation.
4) How can the "Battler" in those stories be a reliable representation of the real Battler? With the exception of Rudolf and Kyrie (who certainly didn't write those stories) the last time everyone else saw Battler was when he was 12 years old. A person can change a lot from the age of 12 to the age of 18, not only in look but also on personality. How could "Beatrice" know details like the "breast sommelier" joke?
She didn't know. There is an excuse for this that is constantly repeated in the text since episode 1. And that's when people return to Rokkenjima they become like they were as kids. This doesn't just apply to Battler and the cousins, but also the adults as well.
Have you ever been to a remote place for a vacation? Don't they have that kind of psychological affect?
Ep 1
Battler:When I see Dad and Eva oba-san arguing, all I can see is a brat's quarrel...
George: "Even though they normally behave like fathers and mothers, in these family conferences, when they meet their old siblings, they turn into children again."
Ep 2: Battler: "Dad's the same, no matter how old he gets, he's just a child."
Rudolf:"What'd you say? If I'm a child, you're a baby, aren't you? Come on, Battler-chan, up up~!"
Kyrie: "You look more like two bratty friends than a father and son. ...Look, she's here."
In Ep 3 Evatrice is an extreme example of this.
Happens again in Ep 5
Normally, Battler possessed the good sense you'd expect of an 18 year-old man.
`However, it seemed that this reunion had brought him back to the mental age he had been six years ago.
I think there are more examples, but I can't find them right now.
AuraTwilight
2011-02-28, 21:19
How can you tell that with certainty? The only truly reliable perspective is the one from 1998 in the end. We have just realized that "Battler" cannot be the real Battler.
The fact remains that it is POSSIBLE for someone like Battler to go a full 24 hours without ever seeing Kanon's face. Even if, hypothetically, neither version of Shkanon is true and Kanon is totally real, the two people who survived the Rokkenjima Incident could've gone without seeing him.
Ha ha, well don't take it bad, but your "guarantee" isn't worth that much from my perspective, unless you can provide any substantial proof that you can do that.
It's deductive reasoning. Do you know how much of a clusterfuck it'd be for the government to admit "Um, yea...we just left a shitload of stolen monetary goods and illegal explosives on the private property of a citizen. DERP."
It's deductive reasoning. Do you know how much of a clusterfuck it'd be for the government to admit "Um, yea...we just left a shitload of stolen monetary goods and illegal explosives on the private property of a citizen. DERP."
Why they need to go that far? They could simply admit there was an old military base of absolutely no strategic importance there.
LyricalAura
2011-02-28, 21:23
The only truly reliable perspective is the one from 1998
Considering that EP6 claimed that both EP4's 1998 and its own 1998 were fictional, I'm not sure how "reliable" is a term we can reasonably attach to it.
AuraTwilight
2011-02-28, 21:29
Why they need to go that far? They could simply admit there was an old military base of absolutely no strategic importance there.
"So um...your old military base EXPLODED and the survivor of the incident came away with a shitton of nazi gold. What's all that about?"
Considering that EP6 claimed that both EP4's 1998 and its own 1998 were fictional, I'm not sure how "reliable" is a term we can reasonably attach to it.
Episode 6 claimed episode 4's 1998 was fictional? I thought that was a theory not a statement?
"So um...your old military base EXPLODED and the survivor of the incident came away with a shitton of nazi gold. What's all that about?"
Do we know what the official explanation of what happened is? Unfortunately no.
However you said two wrong things there:
1) The military base is fine since it was on the Kuwadorian side. Th explosion happened on the opposite side.
2) No evidence of the gold exists from the 1998 perspective. It was implied that Eva actually needed money soon after the incident, it wasn't rich at all, and she had to work hard to make her family rich again. Also since the gold was near the chapel it was probably vaporized along the rest.
Episode 6 claimed episode 4's 1998 was fictional? I thought that was a theory not a statement?
In Episode6 it is said that Ange appeared on Hachijou's second novel in other words EP4. However we don't know if that means that the whole story from Ange's perspective of EP4 was just Hachijou's fiction.
And then again why should we trust EP6's 1998? Maybe that's the fiction.
AuraTwilight
2011-02-28, 23:01
Episode 6 claimed episode 4's 1998 was fictional? I thought that was a theory not a statement?
It made the heavy implication since EP6-Ange describes reading about her own death in one of Hachijou's forgeries.
Do we know what the official explanation of what happened is? Unfortunately no.
However you said two wrong things there:
1) The military base is fine since it was on the Kuwadorian side. Th explosion happened on the opposite side.
2) No evidence of the gold exists from the 1998 perspective. It was implied that Eva actually needed money soon after the incident, it wasn't rich at all, and she had to work hard to make her family rich again. Also since the gold was near the chapel it was probably vaporized along the rest.
1) Kinzo owns the whole island. Shit exploded on his island. Said explosions were caused by a military stockpile. Cue either A) Coverup or B) Holy fuck governmental clusterfuck. It'd be the equivalent of learning that 9/11 was an inside job, except it was an accident and Bush just done fucked up.
2) No evidence of the gold exists from the 1998 perspective. It was implied that Eva actually needed money soon after the incident, it wasn't rich at all, and she had to work hard to make her family rich again. Also since the gold was near the chapel it was probably vaporized along the rest.
Eva describes having the gold to Ange. Ange inherited the title of Golden Witch, which in non-magical terms means "owning the gold."
1) Kinzo owns the whole island. Shit exploded on his island. Said explosions were caused by a military stockpile. Cue either A) Coverup or B) Holy fuck governmental clusterfuck. It'd be the equivalent of learning that 9/11 was an inside job, except it was an accident and Bush just done fucked up.
How the existence of an old military base directly connects to that?
Eva describes having the gold to Ange. Ange inherited the title of Golden Witch, which in non-magical terms means "owning the gold."
That never happens. Eva tells Ange that she made her fortune by herself she never tells her that she was giving her the gold of the witch.
haguruma
2011-03-01, 00:08
In Episode6 it is said that Ange appeared on Hachijou's second novel in other words EP4. However we don't know if that means that the whole story from Ange's perspective of EP4 was just Hachijou's fiction.
And then again why should we trust EP6's 1998? Maybe that's the fiction.
That's the problem with meta-fiction when you try to analyse it from a point of linear storytelling. We have not only fiction-in-fiction but also fiction-in-fiction-in-fiction or fiction-about-fiction-in-fiction within Umineko...it's pretty similar to a novel called City of Glass by Paul Auster.
We start with the message bottles which tell the story of Rokkenjima within the story of Umineko. This is fiction in fiction.
But then later we get the fact that some of the fictional events (1998 Ange in EP4) in one part were only the fiction of another character (Featherine). That fiction is not really part of the fictional universe created by the first two Episodes but is just adjecent to it.
And then we have the meta-world which discusses events that are happening in a world that is a fictional recreation of a world that is observed by somebody whose quests are fictionalized by an author who is not the author of that fictional recreation...
I'm not saying my answers to that problem are correct, but I think it's a lot more complex than just saying "Hachijô wrote EP4, therefore those are not Ange's exploits".
AuraTwilight
2011-03-01, 00:23
How the existence of an old military base directly connects to that?
Why was an old military base STOCKED WITH EXPLOSIVES left to be bought by a private citizen?
That never happens. Eva tells Ange that she made her fortune by herself she never tells her that she was giving her the gold of the witch.
"I'll give you the cursed gold" doesn't ring a bell?
Why was an old military base STOCKED WITH EXPLOSIVES left to be bought by a private citizen?
Are you doing that on purpose?
Why a military base must necessarily be stocked with 900 tons of explosives? Who in his right mind would think that an abandoned military base would be definitely stocked with that?
There is no need to deny the existence of the military base itself.
"I'll give you the cursed gold" doesn't ring a bell?
She doesn't say so, she said "I'll leave behind the cursed gold". Which is what she did, since she never got it in the first place.
AuraTwilight
2011-03-01, 00:36
Are you doing that on purpose?
Why a military base must necessarily be stocked with 900 tons of explosives? Who in his right mind would think that an abandoned military base would be definitely stocked with that?
There is no need to deny the existence of the military base itself.
"....Um. It blew up because of...lightning hitting the fertilizer. Or something."
They're gonna have to deny SOMETHING, and there's no public evidence for the existence of such a military base outside of stories saying that there was a witch and Eva is dead and also there might have been bunny girls.
She doesn't say so, she said "I'll leave behind the cursed gold". Which is what she did, since she never got it in the first place.
That's not what my patch says; must be outdated. It's really a tangential point anyway.
"....Um. It blew up because of...lightning hitting the fertilizer. Or something."
They're gonna have to deny SOMETHING, and there's no public evidence for the existence of such a military base outside of stories saying that there was a witch and Eva is dead and also there might have been bunny girls.
Yeah but my point is that we don't know! Maybe you are right and they denied the military base completely... but maybe not... it's not unthinkable especially if there are too many witnesses about it. They found Kuwadorian after all, so who says that they didn't find the military base as well?
And yeah it seems quite logic to think that the government would want to hide such an incredible blunder, but then what kind of excuse they came up with for that explosion?
Again we don't know.
"....Um. It blew up because of...lightning hitting the fertilizer. Or something."
They're gonna have to deny SOMETHING, and there's no public evidence for the existence of such a military base outside of stories saying that there was a witch and Eva is dead and also there might have been bunny girls.
Well of course there's also slander and with all the Eva hate the following is not out of the question. "Yeah we had a base there so what? You guys know about that Kinzo guy? He was a liar and a cheat. He stole the island from us under our nose when the Americans came, then he illegally bought a bunch of explosives and then somebody blew it up. How he got the money for that I have no idea. But remember he's a cheater and he's rich therefore he must be evil"
AuraTwilight
2011-03-01, 01:13
Well, if the military base WASN'T found (and considering it wasn't brought up until EP7), they could claim any such thing like a terrorist bombing or a volcano eruption or whatever the hell.
Also, I just checked Rondo of Witch and Reasonng and compared it to my PC edition in both English and Japanese.
The ???? describes Eva inheriting the fortune of Rokkenjima and building it like Kinzo did, showing the gold backround multiple times, and then when deciding how to torment Ange after she's gone, Eva says she'll leave Ange the fortune she's amassed and...well lemme transcribe her words.
"The cursed mass of gold and the inheritance of the Ushiromiya fortune, as well as...as well as...the name of the Golden Witch, Beatrice,...I will give it to you now. Enjoy your insane, twisted life fitting for the name of the witch!"
So yea, I was pretty much entirely correct.
LyricalAura
2011-03-01, 01:36
In Episode6 it is said that Ange appeared on Hachijou's second novel in other words EP4. However we don't know if that means that the whole story from Ange's perspective of EP4 was just Hachijou's fiction.
And then again why should we trust EP6's 1998? Maybe that's the fiction.
We definitely shouldn't trust EP6's 1998 because of Ange noticing that her memory had been edited. The question is, does EP4's appearance as a forgery in EP6 mean that it's also a fiction, or was it referencing real events as if they were fictional?
So we might have [Parent-world [Alliance] [Dawn]], or else just [Alliance [Dawn]], but in either case Dawn can't be "more real" than Alliance is.
A simpler explanation would be that Alliance details (if it details 1998 at all) a world similar to the world the actual Ange lives in, but not that world itself (that is, a very closely-modeled fiction).
So yea, I was pretty much entirely correct.
Let's even accept that Eva said so and that it wasn't just a metaphor of her riches. How is that an evidence of the gold existing from the 1998 perspective? Does anything that Eva says in that situation makes any sense?
Did Ange actually see the gold at all?
How the hell Eva was able to retrieve it after the incident?
I'll keep my claim that there's no evidence of the gold's existence from the 1998's perspective.
Pointless argument is pointless. The Tea party tells us the gold blows up in the explosion, and with the location of the gold being the chapel, which was destroyed also, that's very, very, likely.
I'm not saying my answers to that problem are correct, but I think it's a lot more complex than just saying "Hachijô wrote EP4, therefore those are not Ange's exploits".
There's a classsic Tolkein studies argument whenever a silly idea comes up that says Aragorn isn't wearing pants, because he's never described as having any and it asks you to prove otherwise by citing the book. I don't know how that's relevant, but I felt like mentioning it.
Pointless argument is pointless. The Tea party tells us the gold blows up in the explosion, and with the location of the gold being the chapel, which was destroyed also, that's very, very, likely.Clearly, the gold was thrown clear of the blast, and Eva wandered around with a grabby arm and a shopping cart plucking it all out of the debris.
Linkin Battler
2011-03-01, 12:07
Was it ever declared that they were dead in the first place? I forget whether Battler did a proper close up inspection on them. I think he just kinda rushed over to Maria after a glance and they all started to question her. I don't think there was any red declaring them dead at the end of EP4 either...
So really, Maria could really have just turned around and heard nothing. Gensawajo probably just took out some slices of salami and tomato sauce, lied down and that's it. :heh:
And to keep things going, the letter is left for Natsuhi... and... who was it that notices her gone? George? ... Apparently it's George in the manga... I just checked.
Also one thing to keep in mind is Natsuhi was already recruited to act as the Key in the game, so she is in on some of the what appears to be suspicious actions throughout EP1. Although when she starts realizing that all is not going according to plan is debatable, I'd think she was in on the placing of the letter and the whole setup to get the 4 people kicked out of the study. (What the "Key" is is explained in my signature.)
I tend to think by the final shootout she started to act on her own though, though I can't be sure...
Nope, I personally think the letter was put from Maria... Simply because there are two cases in which a letter sudden appears from nowhere and in both Maria is present nontheless one of the suspects. And... I'm almost sure Natsuhi has nothing to do at all with the various murders/plans...
rogerpepitone
2011-03-01, 13:06
I honestly still think that the final letter in Episode 1 never existed. We have only Maria's word that it existed in the first place, and there are a number of points against it:
- The letter disappeared from Natsuhi's body.
- George, Jessica, and Battler walked right past it without noticing it.
- Maria wasn't in a good position to see Natsuhi read the letter.
- With previous letters, rather than opening them herself (which required her to set aside her gun), Natsuhi had somebody else open and read them.
Remember the letter in Episode 5? It seems impossible for it to appear, and the usual explanation is that there was no letter; there is no confirmation that it existed. I think that was intended as a clue to this event.
AuraTwilight
2011-03-01, 13:13
Let's even accept that Eva said so and that it wasn't just a metaphor of her riches. How is that an evidence of the gold existing from the 1998 perspective? Does anything that Eva says in that situation makes any sense?
Did Ange actually see the gold at all?
How the hell Eva was able to retrieve it after the incident?
I'll keep my claim that there's no evidence of the gold's existence from the 1998's perspective.
She describes it separately from the actual fortune, though, what the fuck?
"I will give you this terrible weapon, ALONG WITH THIS APPLE THAT REPRESENTS LOSS OF INNOCENCE DO YOU GET THE SYMBOLISM I HOPE YOU DO I'M DYING."
Clearly, the gold was thrown clear of the blast, and Eva wandered around with a grabby arm and a shopping cart plucking it all out of the debris.
It's never actually said to be under the chapel, technically, is it? Just that the tunnel leads to it, and for all we know, the gold is right under Kuwadorian. And since there's no explosives in the actual gold room, the bombs could be any theoretical distance away so long as they're wired to the clock switch.
The Tea party tells us the gold blows up in the explosion
Where?
Leafsnail
2011-03-01, 13:27
I think Eva just sortof assumes the gold will blow up. She may be mistaken.
Where?
Twice.
Beatrice explains that there is a underground passage in the VIP Room they're in that leads to a military base 2 kilometers away that will escape the blast. By that logic the VIP room with the gold will not escape the blast.
Later Rosa asks about what will happen to the gold if Eva blows up the island for an explosion accident and accuses her of wanting to blow it all away. So Eva suggests carrying the gold to the military base, which of course is unrealistic as well. And it continues after that.
If she's talking about cursed gold in episode 4 it's probably from the key card.
AuraTwilight
2011-03-01, 14:50
Oh, I thought you were talking about EP3.
You should know that I don't trust EP7's tea party any more than Satan's left nut.
Thanatos of Crows
2011-03-01, 16:53
The teaparty is likely to be mostly true, but the way the relatives act was probably picked by Bernkastel to hurt Ange and Lion as much as possible, as the whole point of showing what happened seems to be to make Ange think negatively of her parents (which Battler is against with all that loving memory thing of his) and to crush Lion's hopes of leading a succesful life. "I lost to Beatrice so I'm going to screw you -her hope of a better life-" by making you think there's no way for you to survive. I see no point in questioning the scene in the VIP room, but I also won't buy it as what happened on RPrime. The scene however acts as a hint that things might have gone horribly wrong.
AuraTwilight
2011-03-01, 17:36
Fair enough, but for the very reasons you brought up, I wouldn't trust a single word of it as gospel like I would other parts.
Fair enough, but for the very reasons you brought up, I wouldn't trust a single word of it as gospel like I would other parts.
Yeah you rather trust and interpret literally what a demented Eva said before her death.
Anyway I don't really need to trust EP7 tea party at all to conclude that Eva never got that gold
1) The position of the gold was explained in EP7, BEFORE the tea party and I've always argued that it had to be near and not on the kuwadorian.
2) The whole area including the Mansion, the chapel, and the guesthouse exploded leaving a huge crater behind. This isn't something that should be questioned.
3) There is evidence that Eva wasn't swimming in gold soon after the incident and for the following months.
Witch of Uncertainty
2011-03-03, 12:03
Hmm, I've been thinking a bit bout Bernkastel's game.
Didn't Virgilia (I think ..) say in ep 5 that the players can only manipulate the pieces in a manner that was natural/possible for them to act? Like someone mentioned before you couldn't get Nanjo to build a nuclear reactor.
How could Bern create a game where the characters acted entirely unatural for them?
leaving a huge crater behind. This isn't something that should be questioned.
3) There is evidence that Eva wasn't swimming in gold soon after the incident and for the following months.
She would still inherit lots from Kinzo, no? He still had plenty of money, even without the gold.
She would still inherit lots from Kinzo, no? He still had plenty of money, even without the gold.
Apparently Krauss managed to waste it all.
AuraTwilight
2011-03-03, 14:40
Yeah you rather trust and interpret literally what a demented Eva said before her death.
Yea, but it's her word versus Bern's.
Anyway I don't really need to trust EP7 tea party at all to conclude that Eva never got that gold
1) The position of the gold was explained in EP7, BEFORE the tea party and I've always argued that it had to be near and not on the kuwadorian.
2) The whole area including the Mansion, the chapel, and the guesthouse exploded leaving a huge crater behind. This isn't something that should be questioned.
3) There is evidence that Eva wasn't swimming in gold soon after the incident and for the following months.
1) Granted, but we don't know if it's close enough to Kuwadorian to avoid the blast radius or not.
2) Granted.
3) To be fair, all that gold is illegal tender and Eva doesn't have Kyrie's or Krauss's black market connections; even if she had that gold, trying to use it would just make things worse for her in the media's eye. Even assuming for the sake of argument that it didn't blow it up and she did take it and/or has access to it, she doesn't have much reason or ability to use it.
Then again, she's compared to Kinzo in the way she grew back to power, so she might've done the "single bar of gold" trick.
Didn't Virgilia (I think ..) say in ep 5 that the players can only manipulate the pieces in a manner that was natural/possible for them to act? Like someone mentioned before you couldn't get Nanjo to build a nuclear reactor.
How could Bern create a game where the characters acted entirely unatural for them?
For what it's worth, it wasn't a game; it was a show.
And it's not so much "what is possible for them" so much as "what is believable." The idea is that if the readers can't BELIEVE that the characters would act this way, they're not gonna swallow it. After all, just look at Kinzo; he can be treated any possible way, and they all contradict.
immblueversion
2011-03-03, 14:44
Apparently Krauss managed to waste it all.
On a resort on the moon, no less.
(Well, that wasn't his latest blunder, but it was still beyond stupid.)
On a resort on the moon, no less.
(Well, that wasn't his latest blunder, but it was still beyond stupid.)
Just you wait, When They Cry 5 is going to be about murders in a moon resort, with references to how its construction was funded by a visionary Japanese businessman a few decades earlier who tragically died before he could see the fruits of his efforts.
It would be too perfect.
3) To be fair, all that gold is illegal tender and Eva doesn't have Kyrie's or Krauss's black market connections; even if she had that gold, trying to use it would just make things worse for her in the media's eye. Even assuming for the sake of argument that it didn't blow it up and she did take it and/or has access to it, she doesn't have.
Granted. It is possible that she simply couldn't use the gold.
However the other two points stand.
Then again I guess you could say that Eva still saw herself as the possessor of 10 tons of gold particles scattered around a 1km wide crater on an island that was sealed of by the police. And technically she is... so Ange did inherit that gold. But the point remains that Ange never saw an ounce of that huge mountain of gold and therefore she doesn't have any certainty of its existence.
I'm still not firmly convinced it existed at all, especially if red can be contextual and details can be changed on the fly.
For the sake of argument, if it did still exist, it would probably have just barely survived in the tunnels. Who knows? Maybe a passageway collapsed and it's there, but inaccessible. Eva could've gotten it out eventually, but it would have required a lot of suspicious contractors.
And if it does still exist and is accessible, Eva doesn't seem to have bothered to tell Ange how to get to it. So unless Okonogi knows, it'll be forgotten about.
AuraTwilight
2011-03-04, 14:16
Granted. It is possible that she simply couldn't use the gold.
However the other two points stand.
Then again I guess you could say that Eva still saw herself as the possessor of 10 tons of gold particles scattered around a 1km wide crater on an island that was sealed of by the police. And technically she is... so Ange did inherit that gold. But the point remains that Ange never saw an ounce of that huge mountain of gold and therefore she doesn't have any certainty of its existence.
But then, Ange jumped off a building and then started running from mobster families to go on a crazy adventure to Skull Island, so it's not like she could've sat down and picked up her inheritance even if this gold was in some safe somewhere.
unsuspectingvisitor
2011-03-04, 18:55
its possible that eva took one or two gold bar as she escape.
Unlikely since she was found by a rescue squad. It's not like he could hide the gold bars. Unless she hid those in the kuwadorian and retrieved them later.
As I side note. I just realized that in EP4 it's stated that Eva had Kinzo's ring and Ange is now wearing it. And it is even said that the artisan that made it confirms it is the one. However I don't think this was mentioned at all in chiru.
Can we still consider this a fact? Because if this was true, we could conclude that Eva actually solved the epitaph in Rokkenjima Prime.
FirstTwilight
2011-03-05, 10:24
She was the one that did most of the epitaph-solving stuffs in the TP, wasn't she?
I guess, in the fragments where the adults find the gold she's always the most competent and determined, and thus she gets the ring... she solved it alone in ep III, after all.
Or she stole it from Krauss or Yasu body...
From the EP7 tea party there is no particular person that was acknowledged as solving the epitaph. Eva's contribution was instrumental in solving the epitaph but I don't think it can be said that it was more important that Kyrie's or Rosa's.
At any rate Beatrice doesn't recognize any particular person as the true solver, and more importantly: she doesn't mention the ring at all nor it is mentioned in any part of the tea party.
I wonder... did Ryuukishi just forgot about it? If Eva really came back with the head's ring on her finger Bernkastel would want to explain that fact in her story right?
I always thought the 1995 Eva had gotten away from the island at least with the cash card, if not the gold. Because her family fortune at that point is pretty much gone, yet she keeps living like the bourgeois and is still able to maintain dignity as the head of the family.
Normally you'd think she would be in trouble with all the debt her family had accumulated, and with even the mansion that was used as collateral blown away...
She must've gotten the cash card and found her way to Kuwadorian somehow. Because she goes there, she probably knows about the bomb? Because she doesn't take her own family along and is crushed about their loss, her husband and son must be dead by that point?
The episode 7 tea party is hard to swallow, but I feel it must be close to the truth..it has very little contradictions at least.
Thanatos of Crows
2011-03-05, 14:07
Eva could have solved the epitaph alone while "Beatrice" was in the room, and thus inherited the ring as the clear head of the family, but that rises the question of why did the explosion occur and why did Battler and Beato escape the island by speed boat while Eva hid in Kuwadorian? (I've not read ep8 so I have to rely on what I've heard here.) The escape and Beato's suicide refer to her killing atleast some relatives, doesn't it? That also contradicts the possibility of Beato knowing about Eva solving the epitaph (she'd have inherited the title) and for that reason her getting the ring from a corpse seems likely (but wasn't Krauss' ring a different one, the ring of the substitute head?), so we're faced with a complicated series of events, eh? Yasu was probably Beato only in Battler's eyes during the escape, after giving the ring away. Getting badly off topic here, but as said, to get the head's ring Eva must've received it from Beatrice, IMO.
FirstTwilight
2011-03-05, 14:34
From the EP7 tea party there is no particular person that was acknowledged as solving the epitaph. Eva's contribution was instrumental in solving the epitaph but I don't think it can be said that it was more important that Kyrie's or Rosa's.
I got confused with shroedinger comic where she claims she solved it, alright. :heh:
At any rate Beatrice doesn't recognize any particular person as the true solver, and more importantly: she doesn't mention the ring at all nor it is mentioned in any part of the tea party.
I wonder... did Ryuukishi just forgot about it? If Eva really came back with the head's ring on her finger Bernkastel would want to explain that fact in her story right?
I really doubt that, he foreshadowed practically EVERYTHING of Umineko, i doubt he'd forget about it.
I think the body theory is most likely, after the duel with Kyrie she probably had time to go back and get things before everything blow up. Or Ep. III Ange and Eva are simply not Rokkenjima-Prime Ange and Eva. Evatrice getting the ring makes more sense.
AuraTwilight
2011-03-05, 15:27
Can we still consider this a fact? Because if this was true, we could conclude that Eva actually solved the epitaph in Rokkenjima Prime.
How else could she have gotten to Kuwadorian?
At any rate Beatrice doesn't recognize any particular person as the true solver, and more importantly: she doesn't mention the ring at all nor it is mentioned in any part of the tea party.
I wonder... did Ryuukishi just forgot about it? If Eva really came back with the head's ring on her finger Bernkastel would want to explain that fact in her story right?
Plothole in Bern's Tea Party #487.
I really doubt that, he foreshadowed practically EVERYTHING of Umineko, i doubt he'd forget about it.
I don't share that opinion. I'm playing the PS3 version of the first 4 arcs at the moment and I keep noticing how many things do not fit with the only things that are (almost) certain about this story.
Just to name one Maria says in different instances that she learned how to write magic circles with Beatrice, but in EP7 it's revealed that she actually already knew those and she taught them to Beatrice.
That's just one... I could make a huge list but that's just not worth my time.
How else could she have gotten to Kuwadorian?
Battler does as well (well the same tunnel). Eva doesn't need to have solved the riddle herself or alone, for example if she solved the riddle together with everyone else (like in EP7 tea party) that still would explain how she reached the Kuwadorian.
The ring would suggest that she solved the epitaph by herself and therefore became the new heir. Unless she just pried it from someone's cold hands... but I doubt the ring would ever pop up if someone didn't solve the epitaph anyway.
If Eva actually has the ring then I think it would be almost certain that someone solved the epitaph in Rokkenjima Prime.
Then again... that's probably true either way...
UsagiTenpura
2011-03-05, 21:49
Yeah I was thinking the arc 5 scenario is actually the most likely outcome of someone solving the epitaph (solving it and then showing the gold to everyone else, unlike what Eva did in arc 3), so as long as someone solves the epitaph most people if not everyone should learn how to go to Kuwadorian.
AuraTwilight
2011-03-05, 22:28
Just to name one Maria says in different instances that she learned how to write magic circles with Beatrice, but in EP7 it's revealed that she actually already knew those and she taught them to Beatrice.
She could have taught Beatrice some initially, then Beatrice taught her some.
She could have taught Beatrice some initially, then Beatrice taught her some.
Nice try, but I don't buy it.
Just to name one Maria says in different instances that she learned how to write magic circles with Beatrice, but in EP7 it's revealed that she actually already knew those and she taught them to Beatrice.
She taught Beatrice about Magic circles? When? As far as I know all she said was that she knew more than Beato at that time. She never said she taught her anything.
AuraTwilight
2011-03-05, 23:23
Becauuuuse....?
It's not like Beatrice doesn't have access to literally an entire library of occult materials (which she didn't get free reign of until after her friendship with Beatrice was established).
She taught Beatrice about Magic circles? When? As far as I know all she said was that she knew more than Beato at that time. She never said she taught her anything.
Maria explicitly says that their magic compendia were different. There is also an instance that clearly shows that Beatrice didn't know the goetia key and that clearly shows that Maria is the one that taught her about it.
Add to that the fact that from Clair's account we never see anything to suggest that Yasu was interested in demonology and the study of the occult and you get the full picture.
UsagiTenpura
2011-03-06, 14:26
Kinzo's occult book library is mostly made of books that are not written in japanese.
I do not think Yasu shares Kinzo's knowledge on languages.
Battler had a really hard time to find one he could read in arc 1. I also wouldn't put it past Yasu to have been the one to put it there since it so conveniently contained the answer Battler was looking for.
Witch of Uncertainty
2011-03-06, 14:54
Add to that the fact that from Clair's account we never see anything to suggest that Yasu was interested in demonology and the study of the occult and you get the full picture.
Well, she was pretty interested in magic itself, since she met with "Beatrice" and made magic happen and all that.
Yes but it was a completely different kind of magic. Beatrice specialized in ways to summon magic in the real world, from a pure theoretical standpoint she was ignorant and that's why Maria looked down on her at first.
Maria changed her opinion when she realized that while Beatrice had almost no knowledge of occultism she could actually perform magic tricks, when she herself was totally unable to do so.
Maria explicitly says that their magic compendia were different. There is also an instance that clearly shows that Beatrice didn't know the goetia key and that clearly shows that Maria is the one that taught her about it.
I was aware of that statement too, and I didn't make the conclusion that Maria taught her everything she knows. Lambda's TIP also pointed out that her compendium was very different from anything she'd seen before, but you wouldn't say that Lambdadelta taught her everything about magic would you? In Maria's story she's just starting with her magic hobby. When you start something out you don't usually know everything about it. It's definitely possible she did some learning on her own especially since Maria's only there for a visit or two every year. At best Maria made her aware of it. The Geotia key isn't something you can memorize in an afternoon.
Add to that the fact that from Clair's account we never see anything to suggest that Yasu was interested in demonology and the study of the occult and you get the full picture.
That's because Claire's story was a story about Yasu and Battler isn't it? Why would Lion gain anything by learning more about Yasu's relationship with Maria at that point?
mstrchef117
2011-03-06, 23:21
So, what are the mysteries one is supposed to solve in the 1st 4 arcs?
I know, its sounds like such a stupid question, but please bear with me. I didn't really "properly" read Umineko as I haven't really read any mystery like "And then there were None" prior to my reading the core arcs last year. If I recall, for Ep. 1 I tried to look at it using L&O style detective methods (aka. listen to the expert and look at alibi) but then all that magic stuff started to happen so I got derailed and just decided to go along for the ride. Now that I read Ep. 7, I realized what a giant mistake I made in reading the Core Arcs like that, so I'm heading back to reread 1-4.
So here are my questions
What are the mysteries the reader is supposed to solve?
I mean, from what I remember from the chiru arcs, Ep. 1 & 2 are written by Yasu for Battler and only put to sea only because something bad happened on the Island. So according to Ep. 7, these Eps were written prior to any "murders" and therefore should not have any bearing on "what happened on the Island", so what is the mystery in Ep. 1 & 2 in relation to the big picture?
2nd, which means the 3rd and 4th Arcs are the important episodes to solve the mystery on the island right?
UsagiTenpura
2011-03-06, 23:36
Well according to Ryuukishi the "mystery" part of Umineko ends in arc 7. So theorically all of them are meant to be solved. However that doesn't necessarily imply that you are meant to solve the "reality" of "Rokkenjima Prime", but rather the "who dunnit, why dunnit and how dunnit" of every arc.
I was aware of that statement too, and I didn't make the conclusion that Maria taught her everything she knows. Lambda's TIP also pointed out that her compendium was very different from anything she'd seen before, but you wouldn't say that Lambdadelta taught her everything about magic would you? In Maria's story she's just starting with her magic hobby. When you start something out you don't usually know everything about it. It's definitely possible she did some learning on her own especially since Maria's only there for a visit or two every year. At best Maria made her aware of it. The Geotia key isn't something you can memorize in an afternoon.
Beatrice might have made some self study about occultism after meeting Maria, but that's at best speculation since we don't have any evidence of that.
All the evidences that we have show Maria teaching Beatrice about occultism. Not a single instance was presented of the opposite happening. It is also evident that Maria possessed a higher knowledge about occultism than Beatrice.
All the evidences that we have show Maria teaching Beatrice about occultism.
And I don't agree that what you cited is evidence for that at all?
Not a single instance was presented of the opposite happening.
Episode 4, Marriage Sorciere? In Episode 7 Will isn't allowed to investigate it.
It is also evident that Maria possessed a higher knowledge about occultism than Beatrice.
I already accepted that she did at the time they met.
And I don't agree that what you cited is evidence for that at all?
How is that not an evidence? There's a scene that shows Maria teaching Beatrice about the goetia key, what kind of argument can you use to deny that?
Episode 4, Marriage Sorciere? In Episode 7 Will isn't allowed to investigate it.
We are talking about occultism or demonology here. Mariage Sorciere isn't about that. Most of Beatrice's magic compendium is just stuff that she came up by herself, not something that she studied.
There's a scene that shows Maria teaching Beatrice about the goetia key, what kind of argument can you use to deny that?
Refresh my memory. Are you talking about the scene where Maria gave everybody their names?
AuraTwilight
2011-03-07, 01:58
It's worth noting that Maria only memorizes the occult knowledge she touts; she doesn't necessarily understand it, and according to her, Beatrice clarified things.
Maria provides the seed of raw information, but Beatrice is the one who brings it into a coherent meaning.
Refresh my memory. Are you talking about the scene where Maria gave everybody their names?
She didn't limit herself to give them their names, she explained what those names refers to. She provided reasons as to why she chose those names.
It's worth noting that Maria only memorizes the occult knowledge she touts; she doesn't necessarily understand it, and according to her, Beatrice clarified things.
Clarified things about occultism to Maria? I don't remember anything of that sort.
Also I don't really agree that Maria didn't understand what she studied.
zibbazabba905
2011-03-17, 17:23
Sorry for asking this so late in the game, but have they explained why battler can't say that he was born from Asumo earlier in the games? Was that just a moot argument, or was that supposed to be an allusion to the baby swap with Nasuhi?
I see.
Well.
It's not a baby swap with natsuhi. It's a baby swap with Kyrie. And specifically, Battler wasn't born from Asumu. Battler is Kyrie's biological child.
zibbazabba905
2011-03-17, 18:36
it would be safe to assume that yes, if he's not Asumo's kid, he should be Kyrie's kid. I'm just wondering how that matters because he is Rudolph's kid. The reason I think it was an allusion to YasuLion is that there was no mention of a extra relative in the first half the story
No...You can just take it at face value, that's all.
it would be safe to assume that yes, if he's not Asumo's kid, he should be Kyrie's kid. I'm just wondering how that matters because he is Rudolph's kid. The reason I think it was an allusion to YasuLion is that there was no mention of a extra relative in the first half the story
Just to be technical, the siblings suspect, at least a couple times, that Kinzo might've had an illegitimate child, or some fishy arrangement with the orphanage. And Beatrice's EP3 flashbacks are always supicious. And Kyrie mentions having had a miscarraige.
/shrug
James Lame
2011-03-24, 16:40
I'm sure this has been discussed already but could someone so kindly explain this to me?
What the hell is the meta world?
I just cant wrap my head around it, or is it indeed real magic?
Leafsnail
2011-03-24, 18:48
A story. A metaphor. Magic.
...It's probably something you'll need to decide on your own.
FirstTwilight
2011-03-24, 19:03
I'm sure this has been discussed already but could someone so kindly explain this to me?
What the hell is the meta world?
I just cant wrap my head around it, or is it indeed real magic?
Another plane of existence or
fiction.
Quoting Ange in ep VI, "Are you Featherine? Or is Featherine you?" Either answers are fine.
Oblivion
2011-03-24, 20:32
Question about Jessica. When she recalls the story about going into the VIP room, the doll disappeared. What actually happened?
AuraTwilight
2011-03-24, 21:49
It's implied that Shannon hid under the bed, crawled out, grabbed the doll, and ran out of the room.
What happened exactly isn't known. Generally speaking it's almost certain that Yasu with the help of Genji, Kumasawa, and maybe even Nanjo and Maria created that prank to scare Jessica.
Jessica however came up with her own explanation of the event, and that's described in EP7. In other words she didn't buy the magic scam, but she was still frightened by the idea that so many people tried to scare her and went that far for that end.
If I'd have to give my own explanation... I'd say that Yasu was inside the room hidden somewhere, and Genji was in the basement and Kumasawa was somewhere near a phone with a tape recorder.
Yasu had preemptively asked Maria to register her voice via telephone so she could use her voice later (if the trick wasn't bound to happen that late she could have phone directly I guess).
At a set time (they must have synchronized their watches), Kumasawa made the phone call making jessica listen to Maria's voice. then Genji switched the lights off for a few seconds (from the basement). At that time Yasu got out from her hiding place took the dool and ran out of the room.
James Lame
2011-03-25, 10:51
@ Leafsnail, FirstTwilight
Thanks for that.
Urgh more of the whole it's up to you to decide.
I'm just going to say it's magic because any realistic option is just so damn lackluster.
Bluemail
2011-03-25, 11:31
Personally, I think Kumasawa was acting as Maria when calling Jessica. Remember, she is said to be a good actor (EP5, maybe earlier?). And Maria didn't remember anything about singing a song. As foreshadowed in the episode itself, Kumasawa could have been the one to call Natsuhi in EP5 from the servant's room, if the calls happened at all. I don't remember if Kumasawa's acting skills did include changing her voice or if it only involved pretending Kinzo was around, so I might be entirely on wrong tracks.
So Kumasawa calling, Genji in the basement and Yasu under the bed? Not too many people. ;)
ndqanh_vn
2011-03-25, 11:34
So Kumasawa calling, Genji in the basement and Yasu under the bed? Not too many people.
3 people is a BIG number for just a prank like this. And more important, Jess probably feel very insecure and paranoid. In her very house there are at least 3 people try to keep some secret from her with reason she doesn't know. (Not mentioned about the bomb yet...)
Well, about that...I still don't get why Skhanonyasutrice has to scare Jessica anyway... To keep the illusion of Beatrice? And if Genji and Mackerel is in the conspiracy, they don't seem to have much reason than "it's the wish of our secret gender bender young master so just go with it."
Still I will not put it over Yasu
Bluemail
2011-03-25, 11:49
3 people is a BIG number for just a prank like this. And more important, Jess probably feel very insecure and paranoid. In her very house there are at least 3 people try to keep some secret from her with reason she doesn't know. (Not mentioned about the bomb yet...)
Well, about that...I still don't get why Skhanontrice has to scare Jessica anyway... To keep the illusion of Beatrice? And if Genji and Mackerel is in the conspiracy, they don't seem to have much reason than "it's the wish of our secret gender bender young master so just go with it."
StillWell if they want to keep Jessica away from the VIP room so she doesn't notice Shannon is using it at times, and I think it is an important thing to do if they want to let her keep the Beatrice act. Well wanting her to keep doing it would be mostly "it's the wish of our secret gender bender young master so just go with it." Or maybe they think Kinzo would be happy about it.
With not too many people I meant... umm... well, never mind. I though it would be to point how many know about Yasu's actions. And I think leaving Maria out of it is better, as Yasu doesn't want her to think they are tricks, but "magic", right? Well, we could leave Genji out too if Yasu used an unknown "trap X" to shut the lights. :heh:
ndqanh_vn
2011-03-25, 11:53
With not too many people I meant... umm... well, never mind. I though it would be to point how many know about Yasu's actions. And I think leaving Maria out of it is better, as Yasu doesn't want her to think they are tricks, but "magic", right? Well, we could leave Genji out too if Yasu used an unknown "trap X" to shut the lights.
I think it's not a problem even when Yasu wants to use the true recording of Maria. I'm very sorry to say that, but the poor girl is just too stupi... naive I mean ....to notice any prank inside it.
Bluemail
2011-03-25, 12:25
I agree. But it is said she doesn't remember singing a song. You don't think Yasu remixed a song from Maria's speaking voice? Well, jokes aside, of course Maria wouldn't remember everything she does, so forgetting one song isn't impossible. But if she really does remember, she'd have to lie about the song to Jessica, which would be consciously "tricking" her. I just think we should connect clues which are presented. Why would it be mentioned even that Maria didn't remember the song? To make it more creepy, yeah... But I think we agree there must be at least one character on the island who can fake voices, for Beatrice talks to Battler in EP4, and "a man from 19 years ago" calls Natsuhi in EP5. It all points to Yasu though, not Kumasawa. But because there is a focus on telephones and people not remembering saying stuff, the VIP room case could be another nod at the voice fakery thing. Or I am overthinking.
zibbazabba905
2011-03-25, 18:43
Came up with this explanation of meta worlds during an argument about the connections between Bernkastel and Bernkastel. Does this sound about right for up to ep7?
Level 0: The Real World
The readers
Ryukishi07
Level 1: The kakiraverse
Bernkastel
LambdaDelta
Featherine
Dlanor
Will
Siesta Sisters Imperial Guard Corps
Level 2: "Rokkenjima Prime"
The Past
Kinzo Beatrice Castiglioni Kuwadorian Beatrice Asumo
The Event Krauss Eva Rudolph Rosa Natsuhi Hideyoshi Kyrie Jessica George Battler Maria, Ange Genji Yasu Gohda Kumasawa Nanjo
The Future
Toya Hachijo Amakusa
Level 3: "The Meta World" Eternal/Golden witch Beatrice, 7 stakes, Eva-Beatrice Golden Sourcerer Battler Fufur* Zepir* Gaap* Ronove* Erika**
Level 4: "The Game Board" Shannon Kanon
Other * Possibly from Level 1 ** Possibly from Level 2
Bluemail
2011-03-25, 19:53
Came up with this explanation of meta worlds during an argument about the connections between Bernkastel and Bernkastel. Does this sound about right for up to ep7?
Level 0: The Real World
The readers
Ryukishi07
Level 1: The kakiraverse
Bernkastel
LambdaDelta
Featherine
Dlanor
Will
Siesta Sisters Imperial Guard Corps
Level 2: "Rokkenjima Prime"
The Past
Kinzo Beatrice Castiglioni Kuwadorian Beatrice Asumo
The Event Krauss Eva Rudolph Rosa Natsuhi Hideyoshi Kyrie Jessica George Battler Maria, Ange Genji Yasu Gohda Kumasawa Nanjo
The Future
Toya Hachijo Amakusa
Level 3: "The Tea Party" Eternal/Golden witch Beatrice, 7 stakes, Eva-Beatrice Golden Sourcerer Battler Fufur* Zepir* Gaap* Ronove* Erika**
Level 4: "The Meta World" Shannon Kanon
Other * Possibly from Level 1 ** Possibly from Level 2
I think Siesta sisters do not exist on the kakera level, but are part of the gameboards in the same way as the stakes, as they're metaphors for guns. I'm not sure about Will and Dlanor either, though they are implied to be part of something more general, rules and such. So they could be Featherine's acquaintances in some way. Usually that which you call Tea Party is referred to as the meta world. I'd think there would be a level for gameboards, but somehow Shannon and Kanon seem to be on a higher level than that, somewhere between the meta world and the gameboard. I'm not sure which level Zepar and Furfur belong to, as they're appearing alongside Clair in EP7. Probably on the same level as Shannon and Kanon. They are Shannon and Kanon, in a way.
I could try a meta world order of my own.
zibbazabba905
2011-03-26, 03:28
I think Siesta sisters do not exist on the kakera level, but are part of the gameboards in the same way as the stakes
The reason I have them so high is that they seem like they're from the same place as Dlanor and Will, Being both servants of Pendragon (lol, I wonder who that could be) and Maria's chess pieces, I think they could be put in eaither spot. The reason I think Zepir and Furfur (and possibly Gaap and Ronove) could go into the top world is because they come from the Ars Goetia. If that is who they are, and were actually summoned by Yasu/Maria, then they should be on the same level as LD and Bern, or if they're completely made up, then yeah they would be lower.
I mostly was thinking of ordering them in a way that they can move "down" a level, but they're not seen going up a level.
Bluemail
2011-03-26, 03:52
Well here's my version, kind of messy and not so pretty, as it has some extra notes along with it. I didn't have people rise on the levels either, except the case of Meta-Battler and Erika. And generally magical characters from Meta World to the gameboard. I don't think I have taken everything into account, but this is the general idea I have.
http://i55.tinypic.com/96fjat.jpg
I think mainly in Umineko the demons are furniture/imaginary friends of Yasu and Maria that are just based on "higher level demons" from Ars Goetia.
We could also place Golden Land somewhere, but it is also a bit hard to place. Maybe it is even higher than Ryukishi, as in real heaven? I suppose it's a fictional heaven at most, maybe placed around the same level as Kakeraverse. I think you can also swap the places of Rokkenjima Prime and Kakeraverse without doing much harm, maybe with some modification. Plus, Knox rules should affect the Forgeries as well, forgot it.
I'll take a version of this to the Spoilers and Speculations thread, which has a EP8 spoiler.
AuraTwilight
2011-03-26, 12:55
Bluemail summed it up perfectly, in my opinion.
zibbazabba905
2011-03-26, 14:02
very awesome!
AuraTwilight
2011-03-26, 15:20
Oh, and to respond to the issue of Maria not remembering singing a song, we've no idea when this singing was recorded. Maybe it's over a year old, and was recorded without Maria's knowledge for just this sort of purpose.
Yes, this makes Yasu INSANELY CREEPY, but....you know what, why the hell not at this point?
zibbazabba905
2011-03-26, 16:32
Yes, this makes Yasu INSANELY CREEPY, but....you know what, why the hell not at this point?
I wouldn't put it past Yasu...
All the talk about it being a recording though, reminds me of EP5 and the knock, and how they wouldn't mistake the sound of a recording of a knock from an actual knock. Sort of along those lines, Clair's story made me think that the family isn't as dumb as we (and the earlier EPs) make them out to be. Kinzo's epitaph was probably not as hard as it made out to be, and when they finally sat down and read it, they took five seconds to come up with "the church basement."
AuraTwilight
2011-03-26, 16:46
The recording of a knock sounds different from an actual knock, though, this is demonstrable. Putting aside issues like volume and whatnot, the sound of a recorded knock would sound more distant to the human ear because it's not actually the sound of one object hitting another. Someone's voice on the telephone, however, doesn't have that sort of luxury.
And why the hell is Maria on the phone at two in the morning? Bitch has school in like five hours. Hell, how the hell would she even know to call, and how come she wouldn't react to the lack of Beato's voice, but hearing Jessica instead? You'd have to imagine that Maria is deaf and this is a ritual she does every night on the off-chance that Beatrice picks up, because what Maria "knows" about Beatrice isn't consistent with Shannon picking up the phone, claiming to be Beatrice, and telling her to cooperate with a phone prank.
FirstTwilight
2011-03-26, 17:11
Oh, and to respond to the issue of Maria not remembering singing a song, we've no idea when this singing was recorded. Maybe it's over a year old, and was recorded without Maria's knowledge for just this sort of purpose.
Yes, this makes Yasu INSANELY CREEPY, but....you know what, why the hell not at this point?
Well, Yasu likes to scare people for the lulz (She trolled the shit out Gohda in one of the tips because he said to her Kanon persona that Beatrice wasn't real :heh:) so why not.
Leafsnail
2011-03-26, 18:42
...Hey, y'know that theory we had going around about Shkannon having some kind of hole gouged into where his/her heart should be?
Previously, episodes 1 and 2 have been cited (in episode 1 Kanon could've driven a stake into the hole, episode 2 he shows off his wound). However, I think it's actually episode 3 which is the clincher.
"All of them had wounds resembling gunshot wounds which became fatal!"
If you examine this, you see that, while it's possible for it to only look like a gunshot and only look fatal, it must be an actual wound. In other words, Shkannon had a wound which looked like a fatal gunshot. I... guess they could've shot themselves or something (risking death?), but really, the old injury to the heart seems more likely. If this is true, it'd be an interesting example of real world stuff being told through the mystery on the gameboard.
Sorry if this has already been suggested, a bunch of posts were deleted around the time it was being discussed...
Bluemail
2011-03-27, 04:04
I'd like to try using the chest-wound thing as an alternative solution to the furniture complex. The most probable theory for now I think is that Yasu is a hermaphrodite of some kind. I'd like to use this heart thing because it seems to have more clues in the story anyway. I haven't been able to form a coherent theory for it.
ndqanh_vn
2011-03-27, 05:17
I'd like to try using the chest-wound thing as an alternative solution to the furniture complex. The most probable theory for now I think is that Yasu is a hermaphrodite of some kind. I'd like to use this heart thing because it seems to have more clues in the story anyway. I haven't been able to form a coherent theory for it.
It's time to bring Freud on. For Yasu. Or even for Ryukishi himself.:)
Leafsnail
2011-03-27, 09:45
I think it'd make sense in creating the furniture complex. Doesn't Battler say to Shannon that the heart is important when making his promise? For someone who thinks they have no heart, who's been told that the heart is the place where love comes from... "I'm just furniture, I cannot love anyone" seems like a possible conclusion.
And I guess there's the fact that E-B can't destroy Beatrice's heart. And that Beatrice asks Battler to go for the heart in ep4...
FirstTwilight
2011-03-27, 09:54
I don't think a heart injury would be able to create gender disorders, though.
I still think crushed genitals it's the most logical thing... or it could be both. I also like the prosthesis theory someone posted pages ago, Shannon talked about "missing parts" in ep II...
James Lame
2011-03-27, 11:58
I think it'd make sense in creating the furniture complex. Doesn't Battler say to Shannon that the heart is important when making his promise? For someone who thinks they have no heart, who's been told that the heart is the place where love comes from... "I'm just furniture, I cannot love anyone" seems like a possible conclusion.
And I guess there's the fact that E-B can't destroy Beatrice's heart. And that Beatrice asks Battler to go for the heart in ep4...
But the whole heart thing is a very common metaphor for love, courage & willpower, It's also an act of mercy to pierce/shoot someone thru the heart for a quick death.
Not to say that the theory is far fetched but just that stuff like that being said don't necessarily have a deeper meaning.
Leafsnail
2011-03-27, 12:11
I don't think a heart injury would be able to create gender disorders, though.
I still think crushed genitals it's the most logical thing... or it could be both. I also like the prosthesis theory someone posted pages ago, Shannon talked about "missing parts" in ep II...
The thing is, there's no reference to genitals or the importance of them in this story. It would be a completely unforeshadowed nonsequiter.
Gender issues could stem from the lack of development caused by the accident.
But the whole heart thing is a very common metaphor for love, courage & willpower, It's also an act of mercy to pierce/shoot someone thru the heart for a quick death.
Not to say that the theory is far fetched but just that stuff like that being said don't necessarily have a deeper meaning.
It's a common metaphor for love... subverted in this instance to be literal. I think the combined evidence in episodes 1, 2 and 3 are pretty good evidence for it.
(incidentally, for ep6... Shannon would know that a shot to the heart would be ineffective, since Kanon supposedly has no heart. Hence the headshot)
FirstTwilight
2011-03-27, 13:15
The thing is, there's no reference to genitals or the importance of them in this story. It would be a completely unforeshadowed nonsequiter.
"Furniture cannot love"
"The first night you and George will try to consume your love, he will leave you" (or something like that)
"Why am i unable to love anyone?"
"This body can't even love"
Combined with the ambiguous gender and the fact that Shannon also has fake tits it doesn't seem too far-fetched, to me.
"Furniture cannot love"
"The first night you and George will try to consume your love, he will leave you" (or something like that)
"Why am i unable to love anyone?"
"This body can't even love"
Combined with the ambiguous gender and the fact that Shannon also has fake tits it doesn't seem too far-fetched, to me.
That and the fact that an interview with Ryukishi recently implied that Shannon was thrown into panic mode during her trip with George because she was afraid he would figure things out. The obvious reason to go on a trip alone with your boyfriend is to have sex. And again, as I've mentioned before, internal damage rendering a woman infertile? Almost impossible to see with the naked eye. However, I think even a virgin like George would figure something is up when his girlfriend doesn't have a vagina.
The "nothing happened" talk with Jessica was supposed to be an anvil.
Leafsnail
2011-03-27, 14:23
If you're trying to "consummate" there could be an equal problem if you had fake boobs and a huge hole gouged in your chest.
Really, I'd say "You can't love because you don't have sexual organs" is actually quite a shallow way to look at it. Sure, you can't have sex, but... I don't think Yasu would see it as being a bigger problem than lacking the organ that allows you to love other people in the first place.
Remember, when Beatrice taunted Shannon about not being able to have sex with George in episode 2... she didn't care.
FirstTwilight
2011-03-27, 14:53
She's in love with three people.
Her whole dilemma resolves around the fact she can't choose her fate and who she should love.
Why would she think she can't have feelings for any of them? And feelings don't reside in the heart.
AuraTwilight
2011-03-27, 16:01
George wants kids. She can't give them. Jessica, as heir, NEEDS kids eventually. Can't give them. Battler's a horny fucker, she ain't got no vageen, etc.
And whether we agree with it or not, Yasu seems to consider sexual consummation an important part of love.
Leafsnail
2011-03-27, 16:34
Why would she think she can't have feelings for any of them? And feelings don't reside in the heart.
She's been told they reside within the heart. It doesn't matter whether they actually do or not.
I guess gender problems could be part of it too, though. But I'm not sure if that explains the ep3 first twilight so well ("Damn... two people shot in the genitals. What sick, twisted person would do this??").
George wants kids. She can't give them. Jessica, as heir, NEEDS kids eventually. Can't give them. Battler's a horny fucker, she ain't got no vageen, etc.
And whether we agree with it or not, Yasu seems to consider sexual consummation an important part of love.
And what part about the bold precludes the other parts? Seems as if that relationship can still go through to me.:)
huh. What an odd visual.
FirstTwilight
2011-03-27, 17:49
She's been told they reside within the heart.
Who told her?
It doesn't matter whether they actually do or not.
The point is, she has feelings. You can't not be in love with three people because a hole in your chest prevents you. Shannon loved George, she didn't any problem with her feelings, she had a problem with her furniture body that made her unable to love.
Also, the furniture complex developed only after a certain point, when Nanjo and Genji told her about her wound. It's not that she always had that.
I guess gender problems could be part of it too, though. But I'm not sure if that explains the ep3 first twilight so well ("Damn... two people shot in the genitals. What sick, twisted person would do this??").
Do we need to go to such an extent? They can simply be fake founds, with Nanjo checking the body it's not that hard.
That and the fact that an interview with Ryukishi recently...
Recently? Post EP8? Can I have the link?
Recently? Post EP8? Can I have the link?
It's contained in this book (http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%81%86%E3%81%BF%E3%81%AD%E3%81%93%E3%81%AE%E3%8 1%AA%E3%81%8F%E9%A0%83%E3%81%AB%E6%95%A3-%EF%BC%A1%EF%BD%8E%EF%BD%93%EF%BD%97%EF%BD%85%EF%B D%92-golden-witch-Episode/dp/4048704656/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1301198455&sr=8-10), supposedly. A tiny excerpt was posted on 2ch recently with some names and terms censored (don't know if they will be in the book), but it was pretty obvious what they were referring to.
Leafsnail
2011-03-27, 18:10
Who told her?
http://i937.photobucket.com/albums/ad211/Leafsnail/Heart4.jpg
Right after he tells her that the heart is the most important thing, and the only thing that allows you to understand someone's motivations.
The point is, she has feelings. You can't not be in love with three people because a hole in your chest prevent you. Shannon loved George, she didn't any problem with her feelings, she had a problem with her furniture body that made her unable to love.
You seem to be contradicting yourself here. "She had no problem with her feelings but she felt unable to love". I'd still say it was her heart that made her feel she couldn't truly fall in love.
Also, the furniture complex developed only after a certain point, when Nanjo and Genji told her about the nature of her wound. It's not that she always had that.
Does it actually say so? Or could it be after Battler tells her how amazing the heart is?
Do we need to go to such an extent? They can simply be fake founds, with Nanjo checking the body it's not that hard.
All of them had wounds resembling gunshot wounds which became fatal!
Note that they must be wounds. They can't be fake wounds.
FirstTwilight
2011-03-27, 18:25
http://i937.photobucket.com/albums/ad211/Leafsnail/Heart4.jpg
Right after he tells her that the heart is the most important thing, and the only thing that allows you to understand someone's motivations.
So you are saying that Yasu is stupid as fuck and takes everything literal.
You seem to be contradicting yourself here. "She had no problem with her feelings but she felt unable to love". I'd still say it was her heart that made her feel she couldn't truly fall in love.
We already established what i meant with "unable to love". I believe her genitals were crushed and therefor her body is fucked up. I'm not even sure she could develop secondary sex characteristics, which would result in a more fucked up and ambiguous body.
Does it actually say so? Or could it be after Battler tells her how amazing the heart is?
She already solved the epitaph (the scene takes place in Kinzo study, and she's screaming at them), so it can't have anything to do with Battler. She already discovered the truth about herself, and she hadn't see Battler for years.
All of them had wounds resembling gunshot wounds which became fatal!
Note that they must be wounds. They can't be fake wounds.
Shannon and Kanon have wounds in completely different places. Unless she has two hearts, one of them has to be fake.
ndqanh_vn
2011-03-28, 00:28
So the book is called "Answer of the Golden Witch"?
Could you post here some of Ryukishi interview after EP8 or at least tell us what he says basically?
I really hope that Umineko has not finished yet.
UsagiTenpura
2011-03-28, 01:28
All of them had wounds resembling gunshot wounds which became fatal!
Note that they must be wounds. They can't be fake wounds.
I am fairly certain this is a mistranslation and that it's closer to say that "they all had what looked like gunshots wounds that became fatal".
Someone can probably be more accurate.
this is the original sentence:
彼ら全員には致命傷となった銃創と思わしき傷痕があったぞ
I'm not an expert but it seems that the translation is correct to me.
All of them had wounds which looked like "gunshots that became fatal".
Leafsnail
2011-03-28, 11:04
So you are saying that Yasu is stupid as fuck and takes everything literal.
Ignorant? Perhaps.
We already established what i meant with "unable to love". I believe her genitals were crushed and therefor her body is fucked up. I'm not even sure she could develop secondary sex characteristics, which would result in a more fucked up and ambiguous body.
Sure - I just don't think this is backed up by anything in particular. Kanon doesn't show off his crushed testicles and Beatrice never asks Battler to rip them out.
She already solved the epitaph (the scene takes place in Kinzo study, and she's screaming at them), so it can't have anything to do with Battler. She already discovered the truth about herself, and she hadn't see Battler for years.
I guess, but... doesn't the same problem come up with your theory?
Shannon and Kanon have wounds in completely different places. Unless she has two hearts, one of them has to be fake.
Do they? The text says they're killed in a basically identical fashion by Genji. Sure, the tips seem to have them in different places, but the tips also show half of Shannon's head blown off in ep1, the cousins' necks split open in ep5 etc.
FirstTwilight
2011-03-28, 12:09
Ignorant? Perhaps.
That's not ignorance, it's stupidity. Yasu is presented to us as a dreamer, but she's definitely not stupid.
"I'm in love... but i don't have feelings because i have a hole near my heart. Then why am i in love?" Wait, she's not even missing a heart, she just has a hole near her heart.
Sure - I just don't think this is backed up by anything in particular. Kanon doesn't show off his crushed testicles and Beatrice never asks Battler to rip them out.
Kanon is the one with the greater furniture complex. Does this tell you anything?
Beside, there are clues, as i presented before
"Furniture cannot love"
"The first night you and George will try to consume your love, he will leave you" (or something like that)
"Why am i unable to love anyone?"
"This body can't even love"
Two demons of different sexes, fake tits, inability to consume love, Gender identity disorder, Shannon talking about missing parts and Kanon telling her that the future George dreams about is impossible. He even asks her how did she manage to fool him for so long.
I can't really see how a hole in the chest could create these things.
Beside, the heart thing doesn't relate only to Beatrice. It's about every character. Will mentioned we shouldn't ignore Kinzo's heart too, does this mean he had a huge hole in his chest too? And Maria? Does she have a hole too?
It's a theme.
I guess, but... doesn't the same problem come up with your theory?
How so?
"Yasu, the reason your genitals are like this..." or "Yasu, about your genitals..."
"fffffuuu"
You can be confused about your genitals, especially if you are a shy maid in 1980 (I don't think she had Internet access :heh:) with basic instruction and zero sexual experience, but i find hard to believe she didn't notice the huge hole in her chest until Nanjo and Genji told her.
Do they? The text says they're killed in a basically identical fashion by Genji. Sure, the tips seem to have them in different places, but the tips also show half of Shannon's head blown off in ep1, the cousins' necks split open in ep5 etc.
Yes, but these never happened.
If Yasu was playing death, she should use the same wound. If R07 was hinting important hints about the heart, why would he change the wound location on the tips?
Where does this genital theme leave Lion and his/her/its gender ambiguity? If Lion is a man, why isn't he casual about that? If Lion is a woman posing as a man, how badly mangled can her genitals be? Sure, enough to be unable to have children, but that's only a problem for George. If Lion is a hermaphrodite, would the injury even have mattered in the end? I would still have a complex about getting into sexual relationships if I had two working sets of genitalia.
Explanations that fixate on this seem to be passively adopting the idea that Lion only acts ambiguously because Ryukishi didn't want to say, which seems very silly. Unfortunately not a trick I'd put past him, but optimistically there must be a better reason than that for the ambiguity when Lion should have no such complex.
AuraTwilight
2011-03-28, 14:27
Maybe Lion is a male who keeps getting mistaken as a girl, or maybe he feels like a woman trapped in a man's body. He-derp.
Or most likely, his sex is literally undefined because Yasu doesn't know what he should be.
FirstTwilight
2011-03-28, 14:29
Lion was never thrown from the cliff, so s/he's fine.
S/he's most likely ambiguous for the sake of being ambiguous and to let people speculate about his/her gender. (Also, a male Lion would probably alienate most of the fanbase)
Also, i think it's sorta hilarious, because back then many thought (including myself) "no way Beatrice could be a dude", "Shkanontrice is just Shannon, Jessica is a lesbian", "there won't be Shounen-ai in Umineko". :heh:
Those things seem like dodges to me. Not that they're not true or anything and no insult meant, it's just it doesn't feel right.
Those things seem like dodges to me. Not that they're not true or anything and no insult meant, it's just it doesn't feel right.
I don't know how to read it except as a deliberate dodge. On our level, Ryukishi just wanted to keep it ambiguous. In-story, Lion's "true" gender would be literally unknowable, which is why Bern goes out of her way to keep it vague, too. Lion could have any number of reasons to be tight-lipped about it. Maybe he also has a "situation" down there. He certainly wasn't surprised that his millions of other selves were living as girls, anyway.
Or, hell, personally, i thought Lion dodged the question to troll Will at the moment. :heh:
zibbazabba905
2011-03-28, 16:35
kinda a metagame argument here, but... would Ryukishi be willing to go against the "norms" and have his story about unrequited love be between two guys, ala brokeback mountain? Thats really the only reason I am disposed to believe Yasu is female. Could you imagine the waves he'd make if he ended it with "...Oh and by the way, they're both guys"
The problem with the idea of Yasu being biologically male is that then I don't see where the hell is the problem in him having lost his male apparatus.
That would be completely irrelevant for what concerns George since he would still be unable to carry his babies and unless I missed something about Battler being openly gay I don't get why in the world the fact that he lacks a penis could be seen as a problem!
kinda a metagame argument here, but... would Ryukishi be willing to go against the "norms" and have his story about unrequited love be between two guys, ala brokeback mountain? Thats really the only reason I am disposed to believe Yasu is female. Could you imagine the waves he'd make if he ended it with "...Oh and by the way, they're both guys"A tagged on pro-gay statement would be kind of dumb. It would be fine to have them both be males, but not to make a statement. That would be kind manipulative, and doesn't have much to do with the rest of Umineko anyway.
For what it's worth, my impression was that Yasu is a hermaphrodite. Could be some kind of complex mental gender issue too, I guess - gender is as much mental as it is physical (maybe even more so).
FirstTwilight
2011-03-28, 16:59
kinda a metagame argument here, but... would Ryukishi be willing to go against the "norms" and have his story about unrequited love be between two guys, ala brokeback mountain? Thats really the only reason I am disposed to believe Yasu is female. Could you imagine the waves he'd make if he ended it with "...Oh and by the way, they're both guys"
Well, "Beatrice" is definitely a girl. Yasu looks like a girl, acts like a girl, was raised as a girl and Battler thinks of her as a girl.
In the same way, i don't think Jessica is a lesbian either, she always thought of Kanon as a boy. And judging by the thousands Kanon fangirls on the Internet, he's very attractive for straight females. :heh:
But anyway, just the fact that he insinuated the thing (Zepar, Lion) seems to point that he doesn't care.
The problem with the idea of Yasu being biologically male is that then I don't see where the hell is the problem in him having lost his male apparatus.
That would be completely irrelevant for what concerns George since he would still be unable to carry his babies and unless I missed something about Battler being openly gay I don't get why in the world the fact that he lacks a penis could be seen as a problem!
For how i see it.
Yasu is thrown off the cliff---> Genitals and possibly others body parts are damaged. This result in disgusting genitals and a weak/underdeveloped body (can s/he develop Secondary sex characteristics at this point?)---> She finds the truth about her body and starts the furniture complex.
I'm not saying she wants a penis!, (well, "Kanon" does, but her females persona don't. Shannon obvious wants to obtain a real female body), i'm saying she feels her body is inappropriate/disgusting/broken/whatever, and she's unable to "love" anyone, be it Jessica, George or Battler to the fullest. She's neither male, female, she doesn't have a vagina/penis/breasts. That's why she's less than a person, furniture.
Jeez, she doesn't even need to be born as male, since it makes people uncomfortable. There should be ways to damage a female body too, to the point she doesn't have a recognizable gender anymore.
Sounds reasonable to me. Although I should note that hermaphrodites are usually sterile, and being born from an incestuous relationship increases your chances. So she would have had reproductive issues even without being thrown off of a cliff (assuming she is indeed a hermaphrodite).
That might also explain Lion - she's a hermaphrodite who got "fixed" at birth, so she's left with gender issues.
If it's just about a "horrible wound", it doesn't need to be genital mangling.
If the wounds was in the chest for example the very same logic could apply.
FirstTwilight
2011-03-28, 17:28
If it's just about a "horrible wound", it doesn't need to be genital mangling.
If the wounds was in the chest for example the very same logic could apply.
But, can a wound in the chest make her gender ambiguous? It could make her flat-chested (i think?), but she still would be a perfect functionable woman, with her genitals and everything, i don't think it could create such a complex disorder.
I find hard to believe that George, that loved and desired her so much and for so long, would step back because she doesn't have tits. I mean, it sure isn't nice, but...
The problem is what Yasu thinks not what George thinks.
For example suppose that Yasu is a boy without a penis. Yasu might have complexes because he's like a doll, but I doubt that the problem with George is the wound. The problem is that he was a boy to begin with!
George wouldn't care less about the condition of his "woman"'s penis. Whether he finds out that Shannon is actually a penisless boy or a boy in full health, the shock would be to know that Shannon doesn't have a vagina!
EP7 clearly shows that Yasu blames Nanjo and Genji because of her wound, not because of a preexisting condition.
LyricalAura
2011-03-28, 18:07
Yasu was small for her age and apparently didn't realize there was a problem until she was told what happened, so I'd be more inclined to suspect some kind of hormonal issue that kept her from developing correctly. We're talking about an infant falling off a cliff onto rocks here; if she'd really fallen in a way that would do crippling damage to her genitalia or her chest, she'd have taken a lot more damage than that. That she survived at all implies that the servant holding her managed to protect her from being dashed against the rocks directly, so we're probably looking at the result of internal injuries, like gland damage.
Now I'm kind of curious. How advanced was the medical field in 1968 regarding hormone treatments? If it wasn't well-developed yet, Nanjo could have felt justified making "corrections" at the time that would have been unnecessary if he'd just waited until Yasu was older.
Christine Jorgensen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_Jorgensen) was the first transexual to receive a sex reassignment surgery in 1952.
Of course hormone-replacement treatment was even older than that.
Whatever was Yasu's problem it wasn't anything that couldn't be fixed to a certain degree. Unless Yasu wanted to procreate, but seriously come on... there's a lot of sterile people, are they all unfitted to love?
Maybe Yasu was just extremely ignorant about plastic surgery and Nanjo's total lack of competence on the medical field didn't help.
FirstTwilight
2011-03-28, 18:50
The problem is what Yasu thinks not what George thinks.
For example suppose that Yasu is a boy without a penis. Yasu might have complexes because he's like a doll, but I doubt that the problem with George is the wound. The problem is that he was a boy to begin with!
George wouldn't care less about the condition of his "woman"'s penis. Whether he finds out that Shannon is actually a penisless boy or a boy in full health, the shock would be to know that Shannon doesn't have a vagina!
EP7 clearly shows that Yasu blames Nanjo and Genji because of her wound, not because of a preexisting condition.
She blamed them... because they saved her. She never wanted to live in a body like that.
Beside, what i'm saying is, whatever Yasu was originally a man or a woman, she's now without genitals (hence unable to love), no breasts (they didn't develop/they weren't there to begging with) and has an undeveloped body. Lambda called her a "pitiful creature", Yasu hates her true self... In short, she's consider herself a monstrosity. Oh, despite his/her original sex, i always saw "Yasu" has a female personality with a female mindset.
George wouldn't even know that she was originally a he for 3 days... i'm not really getting, your point, sorry. I don't mean in an insulting way, i really don't understand. :heh:
AuraTwilight
2011-03-28, 19:32
kinda a metagame argument here, but... would Ryukishi be willing to go against the "norms" and have his story about unrequited love be between two guys, ala brokeback mountain? Thats really the only reason I am disposed to believe Yasu is female. Could you imagine the waves he'd make if he ended it with "...Oh and by the way, they're both guys"
But on the other hand, if Yasu's just going to be a girl, WHY DOES THE GENDER AMBIGUITY EXIST IN THE FIRST PLACE? Everyone assumed the Shkanontrice entity was female by default.
Whatever was Yasu's problem it wasn't anything that couldn't be fixed to a certain degree. Unless Yasu wanted to procreate, but seriously come on... there's a lot of sterile people, are they all unfitted to love?
No, but neither do all incest babies pretend to be witches and do furniture bullshit and yadda yadda. Arguing against Condition X by appealing to Yasu totally losing her shit and becoming irrational is a bullshit argument and you know it.
She blamed them... because they saved her. She never wanted to live in a body like that.
Because they saved her after she received that wound. Yasu really stresses out that the problem is the wound.
George wouldn't even know that she was originally a he for 3 days... i'm not really getting, your point, sorry. I don't mean in an insulting way, i really don't understand. :heh:
My point is that if Yasu was a boy without a penis it wouldn't make sense for him to consider such a loss a problem for her romances. It really wouldn't make any.
I believe that most straight men would be more freaked out to know the "girl" they love has a penis than to know she lacks a vagina.
No, but neither do all incest babies pretend to be witches and do furniture bullshit and yadda yadda. Arguing against Condition X by appealing to Yasu totally losing her shit and becoming irrational is a bullshit argument and you know it.
That's actually my point, Yasu is overreacting to her situation no matter how you look at it. Which is why the whole idea that "Yasu must have definitely some genital damage" is a completely bogus argument, because it's based on the assumption of rationality.
Yasu isn't rational, she's overreacting, and that's precisely why the damage she sustained doesn't necessarily need to be genital mangling.
Yasu isn't rational, she's overreacting, and that's precisely why the damage she sustained doesn't necessarily need to be genital mangling.
I actually agree with this. I mean c'mon guys Yasu's 19 (Actually she's 17 in 1984). And it's the 1980's. And Battler can't criticize her without being called a hypocrite because he overreacts to shit too.
"MY MOM DIED AND YOU REMARRIED WHYYYY??? BAWW"
Where does this genital theme leave Lion and his/her/its gender ambiguity?
As per Author Theory, I always thought it was a dodge, exactly as you suspected. Whoever wrote the later episodes speculated about Lion; that is he isn't from some kakera but a character that was introduced. As such the author can't even be sure what was Yasu's original sex and so with Lion the author dodges and ducks.
I thought I noticed some dodging elsewhere too, like EP6. For example when Erika manipulated the situation to say that 'everyone else' was in that room, Battler thought that he was ready to name each person, but I believe the Author was not ready to and so it ended up playing out that way. I forget the reason why though... 8)
As per Author Theory, I always thought it was a dodge, exactly as you suspected. Whoever wrote the later episodes speculated about Lion; that is he isn't from some kakera but a character that was introduced. As such the author can't even be sure what was Yasu's original sex and so with Lion the author dodges and ducks.
I thought I noticed some dodging elsewhere too, like EP6. For example when Erika manipulated the situation to say that 'everyone else' was in that room, Battler thought that he was ready to name each person, but I believe the Author was not ready to and so it ended up playing out that way. I forget the reason why though... 8)While I'm fine with in-universe ducking, it smacks of Ryukishi ducking it too.
With the hormonal thing: While plausible, Lion seems pretty androgynous anyway. Perhaps not "underdeveloped," but not exactly uncomfortable.
And again, as has been said, it's not what Yasu felt about him/herself, but what he/she believed had been done to him/her. Accident or no, if Lion never finds that out it apparently doesn't pose any bother whatsoever, and it didn't seem to bother Yasu much either. It was only learning about... something... which I assume was something not obvious (else he/she would've been worried about it long beforehand). What sort of thing can that be? Let alone what sort of information messed up Yasu so badly.
Remember, there's not enough information to know that anything's even wrong with Yasu as such at all, save that he/she learned some kind of information which changed perspective on his/her body. Prior to that point, apparently nobody'd ever said anything. It could be something unusual, or it could be something Yasu thinks is unusual. We really don't know.
And again, as has been said, it's not what Yasu felt about him/herself, but what he/she believed had been done to him/her. Accident or no, if Lion never finds that out it apparently doesn't pose any bother whatsoever, and it didn't seem to bother Yasu much either. It was only learning about... something... which I assume was something not obvious (else he/she would've been worried about it long beforehand). What sort of thing can that be? Let alone what sort of information messed up Yasu so badly.
That's what gave me the impression that Yasu was a hermaphrodite. If, say, her male set of genitals was amputated at birth (which is not uncommon), she might not even have realized that she was different, until someone told her. Might have given her a gender-identity complex, I don't know. Lion seems more well adjusted, but that could be because she has much better family support (Lion still says she has gender issues, anyway).
There's no definite proof, but there's plenty of circumstantial evidence - the fact that Yasu has two different gender identities, the fact that Lion is uneasy about her gender, the fact that Shannon says that she can't make George's dreams real (she can't have children, like most hermaphrodites), and the fact that she was born from an incestuous relationship in the first place.
While I'm fine with in-universe ducking, it smacks of Ryukishi ducking it too.
The Lion thing is a duck by the Author, I think, but on the Ryukishi level it seems more like a piece of information that he decided was 'lost' in Rokkenjima Prime. I mean I'm sure he can always Later Queen Problem it away if he has to, but I think it's good that he's taking the stance that in Rokkenjima Prime, information could have been lost permanently.
That's the way I thought about it at least... it goes with the whole Author Theory; i.e. sure, they can present what they know.. but the result is they can't present what they don't know.
The second thing I mentioned about EP6.. yah.. maybe that does smack of a Ryukishi duck. 8) Whoosh!
FirstTwilight
2011-03-29, 06:29
Because they saved her after she received that wound. Yasu really stresses out that the problem is the wound.
Yes, of course.
My point is that if Yasu was a boy without a penis it wouldn't make sense for him to consider such a loss a problem for her romances. It really wouldn't make any.
I believe that most straight men would be more freaked out to know the "girl" they love has a penis than to know she lacks a vagina.
But she doesn't have a vagina either, that's the point. "Yasu" doesn't have a male mindset, she's obviously female in the mind until she develops the furniture/gender disorder problem.
The point is, Shannon doesn't have a vagina either, but she also doesn't have a penis. Whatever thing was between Yasu's legs when s/he was throw off the cliff was crushed. Nanjo is not a plastic surgeon and she was messed up badly, i doubt he could fix her for good.
George wouldn't discover she was originally a he (beside, she was a he for like 3... days) but he would discover Shannon has messed up genitals and a messed up body because of that.
That's actually my point, Yasu is overreacting to her situation no matter how you look at it. Which is why the whole idea that "Yasu must have definitely some genital damage" is a completely bogus argument, because it's based on the assumption of rationality.
Yasu isn't rational, she's overreacting, and that's precisely why the damage she sustained doesn't necessarily need to be genital mangling.
Yasu is crazy and delusional, yes. But god, i really have hard time believing she would developed such a sad complex because of something silly as scar, or a hole.
"This body can't even love" "Why didn't you let me die!"
I think crushed genitals fit perfectly everything we saw, the inability "to love", the gender disorders, the gender ambiguously and the fake breasts, the freaking MAN from 19 years ago.
About Lion: It didn't seem to me that s/he has some sort of problem down there. S/he has a bit of a complex because s/he looks girly/manly, but s/he doesn't seem to care too much.
That's what gave me the impression that Yasu was a hermaphrodite. If, say, her male set of genitals was amputated at birth (which is not uncommon), she might not even have realized that she was different, until someone told her. Might have given her a gender-identity complex, I don't know. Lion seems more well adjusted, but that could be because she has much better family support (Lion still says she has gender issues, anyway).
In a family as traditional and sexist as the Ushiromiya one, why on earth would they decide the next heir is going to be female if they actually have that choice? It makes infinite more sense, even if Lion was intersex, that they had surgery to make him male, which is how everyone refers to the baby nineteen years ago sans cliffing regardless.
In a family as traditional and sexist as the Ushiromiya one, why on earth would they decide the next heir is going to be female if they actually have that choice? It makes infinite more sense, even if Lion was intersex, that they had surgery to make him male, which is how everyone refers to the baby nineteen years ago sans cliffing regardless.The oddity there would be: If Lion is aware of this (and if he/she is enjoying messing with Will's head regarding gender ambiguity), why hasn't it had any effect on him/her? I mean "one way I'm forced to become female due to an accident and it makes me nuts" vs. "my family had an operation to make me male and I'm cool with it" seems a little... off. Sure, one had a supportive family structure, but does that alone justify it? I mean I'm not saying I have a better idea, I got no clue myself, but every explanation just seems to cut one way and miss another way.
The oddity there would be: If Lion is aware of this (and if he/she is enjoying messing with Will's head regarding gender ambiguity), why hasn't it had any effect on him/her? I mean "one way I'm forced to become female due to an accident and it makes me nuts" vs. "my family had an operation to make me male and I'm cool with it" seems a little... off. Sure, one had a supportive family structure, but does that alone justify it? I mean I'm not saying I have a better idea, I got no clue myself, but every explanation just seems to cut one way and miss another way.
The simplest explanation is best.
Lion is a male. One that understands that he was raised female in a different universe because he suffered an accident and was castrated as a small child.
In a family as traditional and sexist as the Ushiromiya one, why on earth would they decide the next heir is going to be female if they actually have that choice? It makes infinite more sense, even if Lion was intersex, that they had surgery to make him male, which is how everyone refers to the baby nineteen years ago sans cliffing regardless.Kinzo's the only one who's super-sexist. And considering he didn't know about the baby, I don't think he was the one who got to decide. The people to decide would have been Genji, Nanjo, and Beatrice II, I guess.
Not that it changes much either way. Assuming "male" might be more logical.
Sure, one had a supportive family structure, but does that alone justify it?It's a pretty huge difference, imo. One was raised without parents, the other had a set of really good parents. One was a bullied outcast most of his/her life, the other was at the top of the social structure and everyone adored him/her (even Kinzo).
Lion's got a much easier time coping with issues, I would think.
Kinzo's the only one who's super-sexist. And considering he didn't know about the baby, I don't think he was the one who got to decide. The people to decide would have been Genji, Nanjo, and Beatrice II, I guess.
When the baby is initially given to Natsuhi, it is referred to as male and Kinzo certainly knows about it at this point.
Therefore there are only two possibilities, in order of logic:
1. The baby is actually male. Natsuhi describes it as such. The man from nineteen years ago refers to himself as her son and she doesn't protest. There is not a single scrap of evidence from Natsuhi that there was something wrong or odd with the baby. Even if you don't think she was changing the diapers herself, I can't imagine that she wouldn't have heard about it from the person that did, if there was something strange.
2. The baby is intersex and will be raised as male. There couldn't have been an operation to make it female without Kinzo's knowledge because, again, he defines the baby as male and picks out a masculine name for it. The only decision Beatrice II, Nanjo, or Genji could have made logically under these circumstances was "male."
EDIT: It's also really strange to chose to define an intersex person's gender as "female" but dress and treat them in a masculine way. What's the point of choosing female if you're going to put the child in pants and basically raise "her" as a man in order to take over the headship of a super traditional family. Do you think Natsuhi would be comfortable not raising a child in her care "properly"? Do you think Kinzo would force the one person in the family he loves unconditionally to live a painful lie, instead of making her a "happy" life as a woman, as he sees fit considering his sexist views? (Finding female-Lion the best husband, ect, ect, ect)
Okay, so Lion is male, and Yasu is female (either through an accident, or because she was a hermaphrodite to begin with).
At least, physically speaking. Who knows what either of the two consider their own gender to be?
Well that's kind of important. If Lion is just male, why dance around it at all? The evidence is there, so all they'd have to do is confirm it. Yet ep7 is ambiguous for... what reason, exactly? Wouldn't "misleading" us with Lion's male gender identity just make the Yasu part more perplexing until the final reveals? Why go to the trouble for the same outcome?
Well that's kind of important. If Lion is just male, why dance around it at all?
Simple. If Lion is male, and most likely homosexual at that, what does that make Yasu? What does that make Shannon? What does that make Beato? Being oblique means people that just can't handle the truth can refuse to see it and thus avoid spewing disgusting hatred of the sort Yasu must have been absolutely petrified to face.
Okay, so Lion is male, and Yasu is female (either through an accident, or because she was a hermaphrodite to begin with).
At least, physically speaking. Who knows what either of the two consider their own gender to be?
Isn't that part of the problem, though? That's the core of Yasu's suffering and anguish.
To have been raised as a girl, to have romantic feels for men, and then be told that you're actually a man? Just think about the problems that would cause for someone mentally. How do you define "gender"? Was Yasu destined to be a woman because she has a clear preference for men? But then why is there a feeling of loss and anger (as manifested through Kanon) over the loss of her masculinity?
Being told you're infertile, being told sex might be excruciatingly painful to the point of impossibility because of an accident you suffered as a child...both of those are incredibly emotionally painful, but also sympathetic. What kind of man is going to hear about his partner's infertility and not hold her as she cries? What sort of man is going to push the issue if traditional sex is off the table because it will hurt her too much? Are Battler or George characterized as those sort of men?
But, to have been male? To subconsciously miss being male? Even otherwise good men will evidence hesitancy to date someone that is transsexual, and for someone that might not even be defining themselves as such? That's a totally different story. A man that might comfort his girlfriend over something "sympathetic" might be significantly less inclined to do so if he feels like he has been cheated into dating a gender he is not attracted to, however irrational that might be.
EDIT: Let me put it this way. If there is a problem with Yasu as a woman, it isn't dangerous because it doesn't reflect upon the men she loves. People will be sympathetic if there is something wrong with you most of the time. They will have problems if what's wrong with you forces them to confront and challenge their own views about themselves--ie, "if I sleep with this person am I gay"? Stuff like that.
And yet, for some reason, I can see Battler being totally into this.
I'm not saying he acts in an overcompensating manner or anything, but...
Isn't that part of the problem, though? That's the core of Yasu's suffering and anguish.It's a big part of the problem, at least. Yasu's got a whole bunch of issues. She's the child of incestuous rape, and she's in love with three of her cousins/nieces and nephews. Her first mother died, and her second mother threw her off a cliff. Her "one true love" forgot her, and she held out for seven years. Plus regular teenage issues.
At least Lion didn't have (or didn't know about) most of those problems before EP7.
It's a big part of the problem, at least. Yasu's got a whole bunch of issues. She's the child of incestuous rape, and she's in love with three of her cousins/nieces and nephews. Her first mother died, and her second mother threw her off a cliff. Her "one true love" forgot her, and she held out for seven years. Plus regular teenage issues.
Half of those things are completely unverifiable though. So it becomes an either/or of "these things are true or a bunch of people I trusted told me some completely messed up things for their own ends." Or possibly both, if hearing true things from Genji and Nanjo utterly destroys her faith in them.
That reminds about the theory that Yasu isn't Lion and Genji just wanted to grant his best friend's dying wish.
AuraTwilight
2011-03-29, 21:32
It's going to turn out that Yasu has tentacles down there.
Explains everything.
It's going to turn out that Yasu has tentacles down there.
Explains everything.
Stake-tipped tentacles.
zibbazabba905
2011-03-30, 00:32
re-reading through the whole thing and... how did the artist of the painting know what Beatrice looks like? The painting was put up just before Kinzo dies, so could that be a painting of Yasu in the Beatrice outfit?
There's a theory that Kumasawa painted it. But a truly good artist could paint it just by hearing a description. You don't necessarily need a model.
Also the painting appeared before she ever wore that outfit so probably not.
I think there's also a theory that it's a portrait of Beatrice-2, that either she actually sat for, or was produced from a photograph of her. The reasoning going that if it's alright to pretty much handwave away the anonymous people that would've been involved in Kuwadorian (servants, construction, etc.) , we might as well include a painter in that bunch.
Or rather, there's no reason not to include one.
AuraTwilight
2011-03-30, 01:30
I like the idea that Kumasawa painted it. Because seriously, why the hell not? It's the least Ryukishi can give as concession to...you know, all of Kumasawa's foreshadowing falling flat (let's be honest, who here didn't suspect even momentarily that she was the first Beatrice or something like that?)
zibbazabba905
2011-03-30, 02:42
Also the painting appeared before she ever wore that outfit so probably not.
Dangit... I think that's one of the things I like about this is there's so much to keep track of I keep forgetting the small stuff like that. It's like entire runs of a soap opera folded and crammed into 8 books
zibbazabba905
2011-03-30, 17:35
I'm not entirely sure which thread to be posting these ideas in, since I'm re-reading through from the beginning...
In ep 5, Its brought out that the Kinzo piece is just an illusion made up by Natsuhi and the servants and that he's already long dead by the time the day comes around. In episode 1, the only ones who can interact with Kinzo are the same people who are in on it (obviously.) There was also a scene where Shannon was at the beach and Kanon was reporting on the family conference at the same time to Kinzo.
Now I can understand, Illusion to Illusion, but that makes most of the things brought up in the first episode a lie.
Could it be possible that the conference where they're talking about dividing up the fortunes and the scenes with Kinzo happened before/during the time he met Yasu-beatrice, and time just keeps jumping back and forth in the episode?
I also keep imagining Battler as Kinzo, Kanon as Genji, and George as Nanjo, but I don't have anything to back that up...
Well as for the family conference 1986 is made out to be a really important year and one of the reasons it's thought to be important is because that's when all the money issues are at their worst. It's not as bad in 1985 and in 1987 it would have been resolved one way or another.
I've thought that the conferences might be flashbacks a couple of times, but I just don't see anything supporting it. I'd think that there would at least be some foreshadowing for that by episode 7 if there were anything to it.
Also Rudolf's problem is that he's in the middle of a lawsuit over a brand name so that's not something he can really put on hold.
Why's this thread dead? There should be SOMEWHERE for english speakers who haven't read EP8 to discuss Umineko spoiler-free.
I guess this is a bump but I think I should put some content so I will now ask questions.
What's the current prevalent theories for EP2? It seems to be the hardest to find the "Whydunnit" behind. With a Rosa theory, it doesn't really explain George/Shannon/Gohda's deaths, but with a Yasu theory, it doesn't really explain the first twilight, as it would contradict the "Yasu only does fake murders" theory. Ahh, it's confusing.
On a side note, in EP3, before the adults discover the bodies but after they discover the magic circles, Krauss mentions that he went to find father, but he didn't seem to be in his study; he put his ear against the door and couldn't sense a presence. This seems to suggest that Krauss was in on the first twilight, or at least knew that Kinzo's status would change from "Alive" to missing for some reason.
AuraTwilight
2011-05-04, 13:19
The Whydunnit is probably the same in all episodes just like the culprit; otherwise trying to find meaning between the various episodes is an exercise in futility. I personally don't believe the murders actually happened, but it's pretty clear that Shkanon is the culprit of the first four games. It doesn't work any other way.
And yea, it's been implied for a long time at atleast the first Twilight was planned, thus the "Epitaph Murder Game" theory. However, it seems that even if such an innocuous thing is planned, a real murderer hijacks it for their own ends.
What's the current prevalent theories for EP2? It seems to be the hardest to find the "Whydunnit" behind. With a Rosa theory, it doesn't really explain George/Shannon/Gohda's deaths, but with a Yasu theory, it doesn't really explain the first twilight, as it would contradict the "Yasu only does fake murders" theory. Ahh, it's confusing.
On a side note, in EP3, before the adults discover the bodies but after they discover the magic circles, Krauss mentions that he went to find father, but he didn't seem to be in his study; he put his ear against the door and couldn't sense a presence. This seems to suggest that Krauss was in on the first twilight, or at least knew that Kinzo's status would change from "Alive" to missing for some reason.
It's sorta become clear now that a majority of people are in on the Epitaph game. For most of the siblings they are recruited sometime around 10pm, for EP1-2. This pattern keeps up for EP3 and 4, and it starts 'breaking' in EP5-6 as the Author seemed to want to portray things differently.
The game happens exactly as the Epitaph goes, a 'key' is chosen and that 'key' (most likely) recruits another 6 for the first twilight. They play dead... and then things go wrong, like they are really murdered.
In EP2, Rosa was chosen as the key.
As for Krauss, it's very likely he's in on Yasu's plans from the beginning. Or at least whatever she tells him. This is because Krauss had an island survey performed; he must have discovered all the secrets if the others even allowed him to do it. In all probability the survey was probably done at the request of Yasu and Krauss just used his connections, as he's indicated several times.
The other one that most likely knew something was up was Rudolf, who was asked to go get Battler. This is a common theme in all EPs, so the author of the episodes should've anticipated that Kyrie also ended up finding out about it. Or at least suspected something was up.
I've summarized a lot of this in my signature link. Check it out. 8)
Out of curiosity, what's the theory for episode 4? Jessica knew of a murder which she shouldn't have known off, people disappeared from the dining hall and Kyrie told Battler that it was all really magic.
immblueversion
2011-05-05, 08:35
Out of curiosity, what's the theory for episode 4? Jessica knew of a murder which she shouldn't have known off, people disappeared from the dining hall and Kyrie told Battler that it was all really magic.
I thought it was pretty obvious from the start that Jessica was being forced by her killer(s) to relay Battler a message or something of that sort after being told she is going to die soon.
Cao Ni Ma
2011-05-05, 10:01
Out of curiosity, what's the theory for episode 4? Jessica knew of a murder which she shouldn't have known off, people disappeared from the dining hall and Kyrie told Battler that it was all really magic.
It could all have started as a prank, they recorded whatever they where gonna say with the hopes of freaking Battler off. The person that committed the actual crimes knew about these and later carried them out. After doing the murders the culprit would play the recording on the telephone.
The only problem with this is that Kyrie actually answers Battler back in one of his questions, I dont know if Battler's response could be predicted and triggered that easily without dropping some disbelief .
Easiest answer would be that they where coerced into saying those things. The only issue I have with this is that Maria knows what Kyrie mentions to Battler about believing in the witch. As far as I remember, Battler never went into detail about the call to her and it happens almost immediately after the scene. If she knew about the culprit coercing the victims into saying that then she could be an accomplice. On the other hand if she was part of the initial game and only knew about the recorded tapes then she could be oblivious to the actual murders.
orangejuicetang
2011-05-09, 19:15
Something that I never figured out, in one of the flashback-like sequences near the end, who's the one yelling at Genji and Dr. Nanjo about 'why did you save me, this life is like furniture'?
AuraTwilight
2011-05-09, 19:59
It's Yasu, at the time when she was being told about her birth and such. It's implied and speculated that she got some kind of injury from the cliff fall that she thinks makes her somehow inhuman or unworthy of love, like having damaged genitals or something.
orangejuicetang
2011-05-09, 20:18
Ah I see.
The first time I thought it was Kinzo, but that didn't make any sense.
It's Yasu, at the time when she was being told about her birth and such. It's implied and speculated that she got some kind of injury from the cliff fall that she thinks makes her somehow inhuman or unworthy of love, like having damaged genitals or something.
> She
Eheh.
AuraTwilight
2011-05-18, 13:33
Yea, yea, I know. But it's a two to one majority vote in her stupid persona shit so she is as good as any gender pronoun to use.
KanonTheFurniture
2011-05-20, 18:42
I'm not sure if this belongs here, but I thought I'd share.
I'm rereading EP7 (I plan to wait for the full release before 8), and...
In the chapter where Yasu's tale begins, 'a new life', Will and Lion discuss the fate of Yasu vs. the fate of Lion the Successor. Will says that in the non-Lion worlds, this kid isn't given special treatment. Just a short while later, it is said that the reason the other servants didn't get as used to living with Yasu as the family members did is because s/he got special treatment. I'm wondering, is the word/phrase used for 'special treatment' different for both lines in the Japanese? It does come off a bit weird to learn that Yasu didn't get special treatment, and yet, s/he did, because s/he got to go to school and didn't work full-time and all that. I know Will is specifically referring to the fact that there is no silver ring, so Kinzo most likely does not know Yasu's true identity, or else he would be lavishing them with attention and raising them the way Lion was brought up, as a successor. It's just the word choice, with 'special treatment' being used in both, that feels contradictory and weird.
AuraTwilight
2011-05-20, 19:23
The servants giving Yasu special treatment is not the same as the Ushiromiya family giving Lion special treatment.
KanonTheFurniture
2011-05-23, 14:26
I see, that makes sense. I have another thing to ask, too.
A friend of mine is currently reading 7 for the first time, which is why I'm rereading it along with her. We just got to the chapter where Shannon first meets Beatrice and then we see her interacting with the kids at the conference. Me and my friend got into a huge argument about what's going on there. I tell her that the scene on the beach is meant to show us the gang IN 1979 discussing times when they were even younger than that, before 1979 (in which they're all around 11 or 12, though they believe Shannon is 9). SHE thinks, because of the sprites used and the theatre scenes that doesn't break the flow of the conversation, that the beach scene is just an extension of their teenage selves (1986 versions) as pieces in the theatre reminiscing ON how they were in 1979...and that the beach scene itself is not PART of the 1979 world. I'm insisting to her that she's wrong, and this was meant to be the world of 1979, since after they leave the beach we go into Battler and Shannon going off together and all that...the flow is pretty terrible, and between his lack of child-version sprites and general failure at transitions, it doesn't come off as obviously to her as it did to me.
Has anyone else seen this scene in that way? I think she's crazy, though I see WHY she might be confused...because the way Clair's story goes, this scene, with the cousins on the beach, is clearly meant to be saying 'this is the cousins in 1979 goofing off'...not 'here, the beach background and the theatre background can both show the 1986 piece cousins flashing back to how they behaved in 1979'. It's supposed to be the 1979 conference we're seeing on the beach, right? After all, we just saw the family get off the boat and set the stage for that conference moments beforehand. Can someone explain this a bit more clearly so I can convince her? Otherwise I fear she'll be more confused down the line.
AuraTwilight
2011-05-23, 14:52
It's 1979, as she'll see when she sees adult sprites being used at other points in the timeline. But the ambiguity and general meta-bullshit means that it could, for all we know, be meta versions of the characters getting on stage with stage hands putting up a beach backdrop, while the characters "act out" their memories.
unsuspectingvisitor
2011-10-21, 22:52
i just finish ep7 but i don't get the part when Will started to talk about earth to earth and illusion to illusion. what does it mean? can someone answer this question?
AuraTwilight
2011-10-21, 23:49
Earth to Earth means it really happened (like the person is really dead or the door was really locked), Illusion to Illusion means a trick (the person was faking death, or the door was never locked).
unsuspectingvisitor
2011-10-22, 00:45
oh so thats what it means. But i still don't understand Will's answer though. I don't understand all of it especially his answer in the fourth game.The first and second twilight he answered with illusion to illusion so that means everyone is still alive? and fourth to eight twilight there's earth to earth so does it mean at that point they the culprit started to kill all of them?. Sorry about this its just that i don't understand it. Its confusing since i thought everything that happened was real.
battle22
2011-10-22, 01:06
EP1 1st twilight (the 6 corpses in the shed)
Illusions to illusions. ......The corpse that cannot return to earth returns to illusions.
this mean's one of the dead was alive.
EP1 2nd twilight (Eva and Hideyoshi in the guestroom)
Illusions to illusions. ......A chain of illusions can only hold back illusions.
this means that room was never a close room. kannon lied
EP1 4th twilight (Kinzo in the boiler room)
Illusions to illusions. ......Let the man of illusions go to where he belongs.
since kinzo is already dead . the illusion of kinzo that he's still alive in october 4 is now destroyed
EP1 5th twilight (Kanon in the boiler room)
Illusions to illusions. ......The witch and stake of illusions can pierce naught but illusions.
kannon faked his death
EP1 6th 7th and 8th twilight (Nanjo, Kumasawa and Genji in the parlor with Maria singing.)
Illusions to illusions. ......Illusions are the blind girl's song. Illusion of a closed room.
that room was never a closed room.
hope i helped. lol
unsuspectingvisitor
2011-10-22, 01:41
EP1 1st twilight (the 6 corpses in the shed)
Illusions to illusions. ......The corpse that cannot return to earth returns to illusions.
this mean's one of the dead was alive.
EP1 2nd twilight (Eva and Hideyoshi in the guestroom)
Illusions to illusions. ......A chain of illusions can only hold back illusions.
this means that room was never a close room. kannon lied
EP1 4th twilight (Kinzo in the boiler room)
Illusions to illusions. ......Let the man of illusions go to where he belongs.
since kinzo is already dead . the illusion of kinzo that he's still alive in october 4 is now destroyed
EP1 5th twilight (Kanon in the boiler room)
Illusions to illusions. ......The witch and stake of illusions can pierce naught but illusions.
kannon faked his death
EP1 6th 7th and 8th twilight (Nanjo, Kumasawa and Genji in the parlor with Maria singing.)
Illusions to illusions. ......Illusions are the blind girl's song. Illusion of a closed room.
that room was never a closed room.
hope i helped. lol
so in the first twilight shannon corpse is basically nonexistent. ok thanks i kinda get it now. So what about the second,third, and fourth game?
so in the first twilight shannon corpse is basically nonexistent. ok thanks i kinda get it now. So what about the second,third, and fourth game?
Most of the solutions keep the theme of "Yasu faked death" and "an adult lied". Also, the answers for the Episodes past one enter some very ambiguous territory. However, I believe the consensus leans towards :
Turn
First Twilight (Parents in the Chapel)
"Illusions to Illusions - the gold truth locks the lock of illusions."
The chapel was never a closed room. Rosa lied.
2nd Twilight (Jessica and Kanon, in Jessica's room)
"Illusions to Illusions - illusions who have fulfilled their roles don't leave a corpse."
This was not a closed room. Kanon killed Jessica, and Shannon dropped the 'Kanon' persona permanently, afterwards.
4th-6th Twilight (Shannon, Godha, and George, in Natsuhi's room)
"Earth to Earth. Noone would dispute that a coffin is a closed room."
This is a true closed room. Shannon killed the others, then herself.
7-8th Twilight (Nanjo and Kumasawa in the courtyard)
"Earth to Earth. Illusions to Illusions - no illusion can create a corpse."
Shannon killed Nanjo and Kumasawa. The servants lied about Kanon being responsible.
Banquet
First Twilight (Servants + Kinzo in the linked closed rooms)
"Illusions to Illusions - in a closed room ring, the beginning and the end overlap."
Shannon was the first corpse founds - when the adults left her room, she moved to the chapel to be found again as Kanon, who was the final corpse.
2nd Twilight (Rosa and Maria in the garden)
"Earth to Earth. No falsehoods in their final moments as told."
It is very likely that Eva killed them
4th-6th Twilight (Rudolf, Kyrie, and Hideyoshi in the mansion)
"Earth to Earth. No falsehoods in their final moments as told."
All three were shot to death in the mansion. It is highly debatable whether an argument arose between them (which may or may not have included Eva), or if Yasu killed them.
7-8th Twilight (Krauss and Natsuhi in the arbor)
"Earth to Earth. The obvious culprit wields a mutable blade."
Also debatable. It is likely that Eva killed them, but Yasu placed the stakes afterwards.
Alliance
First Twilight (Kinzo's massacre)
"Illusions to Illusions - tales woven by the golden truth return to illusions."
Many lies surround this part of the narrative. It's likely that Yasu went wild with the gun.
2nd Twilight (Jessica in her room, George in the garden)
"Illusions to Illusions - tales woven by the golden truth return to illusions."
More lies. Yasu likely shot them both, and may have had Genji's assistance.
4th-8th Twilight (Kyrie's group)
"Earth to earth. Illusions to Illusions. Silent corpses, adorned by fiction."
More lies. Yasu likely shot them all, then herself, in such a way that the gun would fall into the well. Kanon is not found because his body is the same as Shannon's.
9th Twilight (And none shall be left alive)
"Earth to earth. Illusions to illusions - when fiction is shut up inside a catbox, it becomes truth."
BOMB destroyed all the evidence.
The 4th game game provides very little in the way of specifics regarding ANYTHING.
AuraTwilight
2011-10-22, 02:45
What those guys said. They pretty much nailed it.
Can someone explain to me just why would the people even cooperate with Yasu's killings, even if she does have the money? Are they that desperate for Yasu to send money to their remaining families back home?
Von Himmel
2011-10-22, 02:52
4th-6th Twilight (Shannon, Godha, and George, in Natsuhi's room)
"Earth to Earth. Noone would dispute that a coffin is a closed room."
This is a true closed room. Shannon killed the others, then herself.
7-8th Twilight (Nanjo and Kumasawa in the courtyard)
"Earth to Earth. Illusions to Illusions - no illusion can create a corpse."
Shannon killed Nanjo and Kumasawa. The servants lied about Kanon being responsible.
How is this even possible?
How is this even possible?
Don't forget. The 7-8th twilights of Turn happened before the 4-6th twilights. It's just that their bodies were found later than the latter.
Von Himmel
2011-10-22, 02:56
Ah I see...that explains it :(
unsuspectingvisitor
2011-10-22, 03:51
While i am reading this i apply what Aura said about "Earth to Earth" and "Illusion to Illusion" but i realize there's something odd...
Turn
First Twilight (Parents in the Chapel)
"Illusions to Illusions - the gold truth locks the lock of illusions."
The chapel was never a closed room. Rosa lied.
if this twilight is "Illusion to Illusions" so it must mean that they are still alive right?
2nd Twilight (Jessica and Kanon, in Jessica's room)
"Illusions to Illusions - illusions who have fulfilled their roles don't leave a corpse."
This was not a closed room. Kanon killed Jessica, and Shannon dropped the 'Kanon' persona permanently, afterwards.
this also a faked death of both jessica and kanon.
4th-6th Twilight (Shannon, Godha, and George, in Natsuhi's room)
"Earth to Earth. Noone would dispute that a coffin is a closed room."
This is a true closed room. Shannon killed the others, then herself.
7-8th Twilight (Nanjo and Kumasawa in the courtyard)
"Earth to Earth. Illusions to Illusions - no illusion can create a corpse."
Shannon killed Nanjo and Kumasawa. The servants lied about Kanon being responsible.
possible that she also killed the victim of first and second twilight since it both have "Earth to Earth"
Banquet
First Twilight (Servants + Kinzo in the linked closed rooms)
"Illusions to Illusions - in a closed room ring, the beginning and the end overlap."
Shannon was the first corpse founds - when the adults left her room, she moved to the chapel to be found again as Kanon, who was the final corpse.
faked death but afterwards they died instantly during the other twilight that have "Earth to Earth".
2nd Twilight (Rosa and Maria in the garden)
"Earth to Earth. No falsehoods in their final moments as told."
It is very likely that Eva killed them
i think beatrice also help at some point since rosa was heavy to lift alone by Eva.
4th-6th Twilight (Rudolf, Kyrie, and Hideyoshi in the mansion)
"Earth to Earth. No falsehoods in their final moments as told."
All three were shot to death in the mansion. It is highly debatable whether an argument arose between them (which may or may not have included Eva), or if Yasu killed them.but there's a high probability that it was Eva since those two have hideyoshi with them.
7-8th Twilight (Krauss and Natsuhi in the arbor)
"Earth to Earth. The obvious culprit wields a mutable blade."
Also debatable. It is likely that Eva killed them, but Yasu placed the stakes afterwards.
Alliance
First Twilight (Kinzo's massacre)
"Illusions to Illusions - tales woven by the golden truth return to illusions."
Many lies surround this part of the narrative. It's likely that Yasu went wild with the gun.
2nd Twilight (Jessica in her room, George in the garden)
"Illusions to Illusions - tales woven by the golden truth return to illusions."
More lies. Yasu likely shot them both, and may have had Genji's assistance.
there was the "Illusion to Illusion" again so it must mean no one actually died during those twilights.
4th-8th Twilight (Kyrie's group)
"Earth to earth. Illusions to Illusions. Silent corpses, adorned by fiction."
More lies. Yasu likely shot them all, then herself, in such a way that the gun would fall into the well. Kanon is not found because his body is the same as Shannon's.
this is spot on.She killed everyone including first and second twilight victim.But i never knew shannon commit suicide at that time though.
9th Twilight (And none shall be left alive)
"Earth to earth. Illusions to illusions - when fiction is shut up inside a catbox, it becomes truth."
BOMB destroyed all the evidence.
what's with the "illusion to illusion" though i don't get that part.
Well i just realize that the "Earth to Earth" thing can also be used as time of death since the Red truth doesn't really specify the time of death of anyone that have been declared "Dead"
AuraTwilight
2011-10-22, 04:29
if this twilight is "Illusion to Illusions" so it must mean that they are still alive right?
I was giving EXAMPLES. Saying that SOME part of the murder is faked, not EVERYTHING.
Can someone explain to me just why would the people even cooperate with Yasu's killings, even if she does have the money? Are they that desperate for Yasu to send money to their remaining families back home?
A popular theory is that Yasu isn't actually killing people, but is hosting a pretend murder mystery game that everyone is in on except the cousins, but then someone else takes over and kills for real.
Evidence for this includes the fact that both EP5 and EP6 involve faked murders being used against Erika.
unsuspectingvisitor
2011-10-22, 10:51
I was giving EXAMPLES. Saying that SOME part of the murder is faked, not EVERYTHING.
Right but that doesn't deny the possibility that they are still alive at that point in the story.i don't see any "Earth to Earth" in there though.
AuraTwilight
2011-10-22, 10:54
You're forgetting to account for certain Red Truths spoken.
unsuspectingvisitor
2011-10-22, 10:59
You're forgetting to account for certain Red Truths spoken.
Still does the red truth point to the time of death of the victim? no right. Its even in the third game i think.
AuraTwilight
2011-10-22, 11:57
Yes, but they're true at the time spoken, which is usually done when the bodies are discovered.
unsuspectingvisitor
2011-10-22, 13:01
i don't think the red truth works that way though. its inconsistent with the story. for example,in episode 2 kanon reappeared even though he was declared dead by the red truth.Also in episode 3, shannon and kanon manage to meet with jessica and george despite the fact the they are already dead in the first twilight.
AuraTwilight
2011-10-22, 15:27
for example,in episode 2 kanon reappeared even though he was declared dead by the red truth.
And that scene didn't actually happen. For one not even the fantasy scene tries to say so since it's obviously a magical zombie.
Also in episode 3, shannon and kanon manage to meet with jessica and george despite the fact the they are already dead in the first twilight.
Kanon is a ghost and Shannon is revived from the dead with magic for like 60 seconds. How the hell does that make the Red Truth invalid at the times they're spoken?
unsuspectingvisitor
2011-10-22, 16:15
And that scene didn't actually happen. For one not even the fantasy scene tries to say so since it's obviously a magical zombie.
oh right forgot that They are just lying about it.
Kanon is a ghost and Shannon is revived from the dead with magic for like 60 seconds. How the hell does that make the Red Truth invalid at the times they're spoken?
You know I actually understand the story . i know that beato just change to shannon at that time and beato just used kanon voice to talk to jessica.
The red truth was spoken during the first twilight thats why.
Well if you believe that at the time the red was spoken they are already dead.
why did Will answered with "Illusion to Illusion" only then? in all the first twilight of all games Why did he not add "Earth to Earth" if they are already dead at that time?
AuraTwilight
2011-10-22, 16:26
You know I actually understand the story . i know that beato just change to shannon at that time and beato just used kanon voice to talk to jessica.
The red truth was spoken during the first twilight thats why.
Well if you believe that at the time the red was spoken they are already dead.
why did Will answered with "Illusion to Illusion" only then? in all the first twilight of all games Why did he not add "Earth to Earth" if they are already dead at that time?
You're missing my point. I am fully aware that Shannon and Kanon are actually not dead. But I was just clarifying that you're ignoring that the Red Truths are time-contextual.
unsuspectingvisitor
2011-10-22, 17:00
what do you mean by time contextual?
AuraTwilight
2011-10-22, 17:06
As in, if I say "John is Dead", it doesn't matter if he was alive BEFORE I made the statement, and if he comes back to live (say, through magic), it doesn't make my red truth invalid in the past. It was true WHEN I said it.
Well if you believe that at the time the red was spoken they are already dead.
why did Will answered with "Illusion to Illusion" only then? in all the first twilight of all games Why did he not add "Earth to Earth" if they are already dead at that time?
I can't answer with anything better than "the author whimsy with word choice", since Will uses "Illusions to illusions" alone, when both would be appropriate, several times. Fore example, Will solves Turn's 1st and 2nd Twilight with "Illusions to illusions".
However, we know for sure, that at least all of the parents are DEFINITELY dead when Rosa opens the chapel. There is the ever-so-slight possibility of Jessica faking her death in her bedroom, but that wouldn't solve anything, it'd just make it alot more confusing.
Also, it should be noted that Shannon and Kanon are very special cases by Beatrice's definition of "dead". In regards to everyone else, at the very least, we can go all Meta and say "When Kyrie's death is confirmed in red, we know her body is dead, as no other characters are associated with that single physical body."
What I'm saying is that Will's use of "earth to earth" is a little inconsistent, and you probably shouldn't take it as the absolute word on death in each case.
unsuspectingvisitor
2011-10-23, 00:47
I get it now.SO It means that Victim was killed by different person way before the first twilight began and yasu just used the corpses for the ceremony.
that make sense for "illusion to illusion" thing
the "earth to earth" i think means that the victim was killed on the spot.
haguruma
2011-10-23, 07:48
I can't answer with anything better than "the author whimsy with word choice", since Will uses "Illusions to illusions" alone, when both would be appropriate, several times. Fore example, Will solves Turn's 1st and 2nd Twilight with "Illusions to illusions".
One thing I considered is that the two slogans lead us closer to a different thing than the truth of the individual Episodes. What is actually marked as "Earth to Earth"?
EP2: 4th, 5th, 6th twilight (Shannon, Gohda, George)
EP3: 2nd twilight (Rosa, Maria)
EP3: 4th, 5th, 6th twilight (Rudolph, Hideyoshi, Kyrie)
EP3: 7th, 8th twilight (Krauss, Natsuhi)
Then we have the characters who die in "Earth to Earth. Illusion to Illusion".
EP2: 7th, 8th twilight (Nanjô, Kumasawa)
EP4: 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th twilight (Kanon, Shannon, Nanjô, Krauss, Kyrie)
EP4: 9th twilight (nobody survives - Kumasawa, Gohda, Maria, Battler)
What I find interesting is, that there is no double character in "Earth to Earth" and those who are part "Earth to Earth" could have at least been perceived that way. If we consider that there might not have been actuall planned and controlled Epitaph murders on the island, this might lead us closer to the truth.
Crontica
2011-10-28, 04:55
Throughout all the spoilers i've read, it appears that the canon pairing was actually Yasu x Battler, because Kanon / Shannon / Beatrice are all aliases.
Adding more light to the fact that Battler cannot remember the promise because he can't remember her face.
Natsumi and Rosa both talk about losing people over a cliff, they could both be in cahoots with this Yasu incident.
Eriko 556
2011-11-03, 10:32
It's a big part of the problem, at least. Yasu's got a whole bunch of issues. She's the child of incestuous rape, and she's in love with three of her cousins/nieces and nephews. Her first mother died, and her second mother threw her off a cliff. Her "one true love" forgot her, and she held out for seven years. Plus regular teenage issues.
Half of those things are completely unverifiable though. So it becomes an either/or of "these things are true or a bunch of people I trusted told me some completely messed up things for their own ends." Or possibly both, if hearing true things from Genji and Nanjo utterly destroys her faith in them.
I think everyone is forgetting something: Normaly these incest's children born with a variety of genetic problems. We can see that Yasuda is perfect on his/her outside, but this doesn't mean Yasuda's mind is sane.
Yasuda probably has some mental problem since his/her born due to be child of incest. Mix this with all his/her problems and then you have a perfect recipe for a crazy murderer.
AuraTwilight
2011-11-03, 13:35
That's dumb. That's extremely dumb.
Incest doesn't make you 'Crazy', it makes you retarded, and given how intelligent Yasu is, I think we can rest assured that she doesn't have any mental defects. Given Lion's existence, she doesn't seem to have any defects aside from seeming underdeveloped and androgynous, which makes sense since she's only first-generation incest.
I think everyone is forgetting something: Normaly these incest's children born with a variety of genetic problems. We can see that Yasuda is perfect on his/her outside, but this doesn't mean Yasuda's mind is sane.
Yasuda probably has some mental problem since his/her born due to be child of incest. Mix this with all his/her problems and then you have a perfect recipe for a crazy murderer.
That's dumb. That's extremely dumb.
Incest doesn't make you 'Crazy', it makes you retarded, and given how intelligent Yasu is, I think we can rest assured that she doesn't have any mental defects. Given Lion's existence, she doesn't seem to have any defects aside from seeming underdeveloped and androgynous, which makes sense since she's only first-generation incest.
Ehm... technically inbreeding leads to a higher probability of congenital birth defects.
It doesn't insure a child born out incest will be retarded. He might have other genetical problems which can lead to mental illness or to intelligence deficy or to physical or immunitarian deficy though... or he can be sane.
For all we know she could be merely suffering of dyslexia (it comes to my mind because it had been recently confirmed it can be due to genetic nature) which wouldn't surely push her to cause a mass murder as well as sociopathic as well as sane.
In short her being born from incest doesn't insure she's a dangerous sociopath more than any other people who's not born out of incest.
AuraTwilight
2011-11-03, 16:05
Exactly my point, really.
ErenselTheJester
2011-11-07, 19:18
One thing I considered is that the two slogans lead us closer to a different thing than the truth of the individual Episodes. What is actually marked as "Earth to Earth"?
EP2: 4th, 5th, 6th twilight (Shannon, Gohda, George)
EP3: 2nd twilight (Rosa, Maria)
EP3: 4th, 5th, 6th twilight (Rudolph, Hideyoshi, Kyrie)
EP3: 7th, 8th twilight (Krauss, Natsuhi)
Then we have the characters who die in "Earth to Earth. Illusion to Illusion".
EP2: 7th, 8th twilight (Nanjô, Kumasawa)
EP4: 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th twilight (Kanon, Shannon, Nanjô, Krauss, Kyrie)
EP4: 9th twilight (nobody survives - Kumasawa, Gohda, Maria, Battler)
What I find interesting is, that there is no double character in "Earth to Earth" and those who are part "Earth to Earth" could have at least been perceived that way. If we consider that there might not have been actuall planned and controlled Epitaph murders on the island, this might lead us closer to the truth.
I theorize that Will is speaking in terms of corpses which lead to the type of murder committed: "Earth to Earth" meaning there are dead bodies thus an actual murder was committed and "Illusion to Illusion" meaning that the murder was faked. I also noticed a pattern in the chart you gave and think that the overall truth of Umineko is that the murders started off as a giant setup or prank until somebody actually starts killing people. The first and Second Twilights are generally set ups and the murders don't begin until the 4th twilight. The only exception being EP2's Second Twilight.
DukeLawliet
2011-11-07, 20:57
Um, I recently finished it, can I join the discussion please..?
LyricalAura
2011-11-07, 21:31
By all means.
AuraTwilight
2011-11-07, 22:00
Yea, go on ahead. Free forum!
ErenselTheJester
2011-11-08, 05:41
Don't listen to these people! Leave while you have the chance!
rogerpepitone
2011-11-08, 15:48
Recap:
`"First game, first twilight.`@` Six corpses in the gardening shed."`\
;「幻は幻に。@……土には帰れぬ骸が、幻に帰る。」\
`"Illusions to illusions.`@` ......The corpse that cannot return to earth returns to illusions."`\
;「第１のゲーム、第二の晩。@寄り添いし二人の骸は鎖で守られし密室に。」\
`"First game, second twilight.`@` Two corpses are close together in a closed room protected by a chain."`\
;「幻は幻に。@……幻の鎖は、幻しか閉じ込めない。」\
`"Illusions to illusions.`@` ......A chain of illusions can only hold back illusions."`\
;「第１のゲーム、第四の晩。@密室書斎の老当主は灼熱の窯の中に。」\
`"First game, fourth twilight.`@` The old Head from the closed room study, confined in a scorching furnace."`\
;「幻は幻に。@……幻の男は、あるべきところへ。」\
`"Illusions to illusions.`@` ......Let the man of illusions go to where he belongs."`\
;「第１のゲーム、第五の晩。@杭に胸を捧げし少年の最後。」@
`"First game, fifth twilight.`@` The last moments of the sacrificed boy with a stake in his chest."`@
;「幻は幻に。@……幻想の魔女と杭は、幻想しか貫けない。」@
`"Illusions to illusions.`@` ......The witch and stake of illusions can pierce naught but illusions."`@
;「第１のゲーム、第六、第七、第八の晩。@歌う少女の密室に横たわる３人の骸。」@
`"First game, sixth, seventh, and eighth twilights.`@` Three corpses lying in the closed room of the singing girl."`@
;「幻は幻に。@……盲目なる少女が歌うは幻。密室幻想。」\
`"Illusions to illusions.`@` ......Illusions are the blind girl's song. Illusion of a closed room."`\
;「……始めから、危ういゲームだったな。@………もしもあいつが、それでも死に顔を見たいと言って踏み入 っていたなら、どうしていた。」\
`"......That was a risky game from the very start.`@` ......What if the guy really wanted to see that dead face and just stepped inside?"`\
;「続けましょう。@第２のゲーム、第一の晩。@腹を割かれし６人は密室礼拝堂に。」@
`"Let us continue.`@` Second game, first twilight.`@` Six with their stomachs split in the closed room chapel."`@
;「幻は幻に。@……黄金の真実が、幻の錠を閉ざす。」\
`"Illusions to illusions.`@` ......The gold truth locks the lock of illusions."`\
;「第２のゲーム、第二の晩。@寄り添いし二人は、死体さえも寄り添えない。」@
`"Second game, second twilight.`@` The corpses of the two who are close are not close."`@
;「幻は幻に。@……役目を終えたる幻は、骸さえも残せない。」\
`"Illusions to illusions.`@` ......Illusions who have fulfilled their role do not leave a corpse."`\
;「第２のゲーム、第四、第五、第六の晩。@夏妃の密室にて生き残りし者はなし。」@
`"Second game, fourth, fifth, and sixth twilights.`@` In Natsuhi's closed room, none are left alive."`@
;「土は土に。@……棺桶が密室であることに、疑問を挟む者はいない。」\
`"Earth to earth.`@` ......No one would dispute that a coffin is a closed room."`\
;「第２のゲーム、第七、第八の晩。@赤き目の幻想に斬り殺されし二人。」@
`"Second game, seventh and eighth twilights.`@` The two sliced to death by the red-eyed phantom."`@
;「土は土に。幻は幻に。@/
`"Earth to earth. Illusions to illusions. `@/
;……幻に生み出せる骸はなし。」\
`......No illusion can create a corpse."`\
;「第３のゲーム、第一の晩。@連鎖密室が繋ぎし、６人の骸。」@
`"Third game, first twilight.`@` Six corpses connected by the linked closed rooms."`@
;「幻は幻に。@……輪になる密室、終わりと始まりが、重なる。」\
`"Illusions to illusions.`@` ......In a closed room ring, the end and the beginning overlap."`\
;「第３のゲーム、第二の晩。@薔薇庭園にて親子は骸を重ねる。」@
`"Third game, second twilight.`@` The corpses of mother and child lay together in the rose garden."`@
;「土は土に。@……語られし最期に、何の偽りもなし。」\
`"Earth to earth.`@` ......No falsehoods in their final moments as told."`\
;「第３のゲーム、第四、第五、第六の晩。@屋敷にて倒れし３人の骸。」@
`"Third game, fourth, fifth, and sixth twilights.`@` Three corpses lying in the mansion."`@
;「土は土に。@……語られし最期に、何の偽りもなし。」\
`"Earth to earth.`@` ......No falsehoods in their final moments as told."`\
;「第３のゲーム、第七、第八の晩。@夫婦二人は東屋にて骸を晒す。」@
`"Third game, seventh and eighth twilights.`@` The corpses of husband and wife lay exposed under the arbor."`@
;「土は土に。@……明白なる犯人は、無常の刃を振るいたり。」\
`"Earth to earth.`@` ......The obvious culprit wields a mutable blade."`\
;「第４のゲーム、第一の晩。@食堂にて吹き荒れる虐殺の嵐。」@
`"Fourth game, first twilight.`@` A massacring storm sweeps through the dining hall."`@
;「幻は幻に。@……黄金の真実が紡ぎ出す物語は、幻に帰る。」@
`"Illusions to illusions.`@` ......Tales woven by the gold truth return to illusions."`@
;「第４のゲーム、第二の晩。@二人の若者は試練に挑み、共に果てる。」@
`"Fourth game, second twilight.`@` The two young ones face their trials and pass away together."`@
;「幻は幻に。@……黄金の真実が紡ぎ出す物語は、幻に帰る。」\
`"Illusions to illusions.`@` ......Tales woven by the gold truth return to illusions."`\
;「第４のゲーム、第四、第五、第六、第七、第八の晩。@逃亡者は誰も生き残れはしない。」@
`"Fourth game, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth twilights.`@` None of the runaways are left alive."`@
;「土は土に。幻は幻に。@……虚構に彩られし、物言わぬ骸。」\
`"Earth to earth. Illusions to illusions.`@` ......Silent corpses, adorned by fiction."`\
;「第４のゲーム、第九の晩。@そして、誰も生き残れはしない。」@
`"Fourth game, ninth twilight.`@` And none shall be left alive."`@
;「土は土に。幻は幻に。@……虚構は猫箱に閉ざされることで、真実となる。」\
`"Earth to earth. Illusions to illusions.`@` ......When fiction is shut up inside a cat box, it becomes truth."`\
;「……では、最後の問いを。」@
`"......Then, one final question."`@
;「私は、だぁれ……？」@
`"Who...aaam I......?"`@
;「幻は、幻に。@……約束された死神は、魔女の意思を問わずに、物語に幕を下ろす。」\
`"Illusions...to illusions.`@` ......The promised reaper lowers the curtains on the tale regardless of the witch's will."`\
I think that "Illusions to illusions" refers to a lie by a character on the island / Battler misunderstood the crime scene. Earth to earth means Battler understood the crime scene correctly.
(Scenes where Battler is present when the bodies are first discovered are marked with (*).
E1T1: Hideyoshi & Kanon lied about seeing Shannon.
E1T2: Genji & Kanon lied about the chain being set.
E1T4: Natsuhi lied about having seen Kinzo. (*)
E1T5: Nanjo lied that Kanon was dead. (*)
E1T678: Maria lied about Beatrice having come through the door.
(Natsuhi (9th), cousins (10th) skipped)
E2T1: Rosa & the others lied that the chapel was locked.
E2T2: Text appears to be describing how Kanon was imaginary. Also, Rosa & Genji, possibly also Gohda, lied about the whereabouts of Shkanon during this time. (*)
E2T456: No lies. (*)
E2T78: Shannon, Genji, and Gohda lied when describing the murder, but there were no lies regarding the crime scene.
(Battler, Rosa, Maria, Genji, Kinzo (10th) skipped)
E3T1: Text appears to be describing that Shannon (first victim) and Kanon (last victim) were the same.
E3T2: This is marked as earth to earth, but Hideyoshi did lie about being with Eva at the time. (*)
E3T456: No lies. (*)
E3T78: No lies. (*)
(George, Nanjo, Battler (9th), Jessica (10th) skipped)
E4T1:
E4T2:
E4T45678:
E4T9: (*)
(Battler, Maria (10th) skipped)
ErenselTheJester
2011-11-08, 19:49
Why do people keep saying that "X person lied" when it doesn't make sense for them to do so? Genji, Kanon, and Kumasawa couldn't lie about Eva's chain being set, Kanon had a chain cutter in his hand. Nanjo can't lie about Kanon's death because he can't do a thorough autopsy thus he was just mistaken, not a liar. Rosa nor anyone can lie about the chapel being locked because how could an entire group of people lie about a fact that a single person would confirm and why would that single person lie if we are to believe he/she is not guilty?
An entire group of people can lie if they all decided to lie, to exclude the minority of others who are not involved.
Why do you think they 'can't lie?' It's very easy for people to lie... "The sky is magenta. The grass is blue. I am purple." There.. I just lied three times. It's easy... 8)
Do you mean it's not feasible for many people to lie? Well, how about when there's a coordinated plan to do so? EP5 showed us that Natsuhi enforced a co-ordinated effort to lie about Kinzo. It's not that difficult to conclude that other people are co-ordinating their lies too.
(Note now Nanjo lied about seeing the ring on Kinzo's finger in EP2? This is a signal that he was helping some other faction to enforce the idea that the headship is under control of Kinzo. This is not something Natsuhi would've wanted.)
That's just something I can remember off the top of my head too...
rogerpepitone
2011-11-08, 20:07
How Eva's room worked:
6 PM: Yasu walks up to door, wirecutters in hand. Yasu unlocks it with hir key, then cuts the chain. Eva is startled, but Yasu shoots her before she can attack. Yasu enters the bathroom and shoots Hideyoshi as well. Yasu sets the wire cutters just outside the door, stakes the foreheads and paints the door.
7 PM: Kanon and Genji falsely tell Natsuhi that Eva's door was locked. Kumasawa falsely claims she saw Kanon cut the chain.
And as for "Why is everybody lying?", my guess is:
Genji, possibly also Kumasawa and Nanjo, is lying because he would do anything Kinzo asked, and considers Yasu Kinzo's legitimate successor.
As for why everybody else lies, my best guess is because because Ryu isn't a good writer.
Actually, if you examine the scenarios, nearly all the siblings and possibly George and Jessica were recruited to lie or do certain specific things. They may not know everything though.
Poor Natsuhi's probably the one most in the dark and Krauss is probably the one who knows the most, except for the servants. Oh, and Gouda may know nothing even though he's pretty easy to manipulate.
(Even then, Natsuhi was recruited in EP1 as the Key in the game and despite not really knowing much, was made to do and lie about certain things. Until she realized it wasn't a game any more, of course.)
AuraTwilight
2011-11-08, 20:56
Why do people keep saying that "X person lied" when it doesn't make sense for them to do so? Genji, Kanon, and Kumasawa couldn't lie about Eva's chain being set, Kanon had a chain cutter in his hand. Nanjo can't lie about Kanon's death because he can't do a thorough autopsy thus he was just mistaken, not a liar. Rosa nor anyone can lie about the chapel being locked because how could an entire group of people lie about a fact that a single person would confirm and why would that single person lie if we are to believe he/she is not guilty?
None of that means anything. If a group of people agrees to lie, it's easy to do so. It's implied that Beatrice used the gold to get the support of the adults and the servants, so they're all "in on it" to some extent.
Most people, like myself, go on to speculate that most everyone thought this was a murder mystery game to trick the cousins, until someone started killing people for real.
zibbazabba905
2011-11-09, 18:19
Is this still about the knock? I skim through and read some interesting debates, but I seem to lose track of what the initial topic was about. I'm still kinda confused as to why they would have kept Yasu on the staff with how disturbed s/he was. was there ever a definitive time when Yasu became the heir? It was around the time Kinzo dies iirc, but wasn't s/he working there for a while before then, and still a bit loopy?
haguruma
2011-11-09, 19:08
Is this still about the knock? I skim through and read some interesting debates, but I seem to lose track of what the initial topic was about. I'm still kinda confused as to why they would have kept Yasu on the staff with how disturbed s/he was. was there ever a definitive time when Yasu became the heir? It was around the time Kinzo dies iirc, but wasn't s/he working there for a while before then, and still a bit loopy?
By what we learned from EP7, it was known among the chief of staff and the most important people to Kinzô (Genji, Kumasawa and probably Nanjô) that Yasu was the child of Kinzô and Beatrice#2. She was more or less kept in the mansion as a way to provide her with shelter until the day when she was supposed to take over from Kinzô. Especially Genji seemed to concentrate on pushing Yasu to that point.
Yasu became the official heir closely after the night or the exact night of November 29th 1984 when the epitaph was solved and Kinzô handed over his possessions. It is still implied that Kinzô left handling the staff to Genji, even though Natsuhi had some control over them. Kinzôs instructions were though that the children from Fukuin were to be provided with proper education to succeed in the world, so her hands were pretty much tied.
LyricalAura
2011-11-09, 19:20
Is this still about the knock? I skim through and read some interesting debates, but I seem to lose track of what the initial topic was about. I'm still kinda confused as to why they would have kept Yasu on the staff with how disturbed s/he was. was there ever a definitive time when Yasu became the heir? It was around the time Kinzo dies iirc, but wasn't s/he working there for a while before then, and still a bit loopy?
To add onto what haguruma said, Yasu started working at the mansion when she was nine (that is, when everyone thought she was six). I think it was said in EP7 that Kinzo died on the same day her identity was revealed to him.
People thought she was a klutz some of the time, but there isn't really an indication that she was considered "loopy," at least not by anyone who didn't know about her lineage. Also, everything in Claire's confession in EP7 has a thick fantasy filter over it, so it isn't necessarily a literal representation of Yasu's real thought processes or worldview to begin with.
unsuspectingvisitor
2011-11-11, 06:55
random question: What does Bernkastel talking about when she said this "lion came from a Bigger cat box than Beato" ?
random question: What does Bernkastel talking about when she said this "lion came from a Bigger cat box than Beato" ?
It seems pretty clear that Bernkastel got Lion into the game by including the possibility that the baby from eighteen years ago didn't fall off a cliff (and thus, Lion). Presumably that makes this cat box "bigger" because in the six previous games that possibility did not exist.
As to how she does that, it just seems to be her thing. She did it before with Erika in EP5. She also brought in Ange in EP4, though under vastly different circumstances.
AuraTwilight
2011-11-11, 14:35
Basically, to put it another way, the catbox is "What happened on Rokkenjima 1986?" And that it the catbox where the island blew up and people died and all that shit. Bernkastel is including other universes where instead of Yasu is born, Lion is. Beatrice and Lion cannot exist in the same universe, so to include Lion as a possibility in the catbox, you have to make the box bigger.
Think of it as one of those dolls that are stacked inside of each other, where you open them up and a smaller one is inside, on and on. Beato is from one of the smaller dolls inside Lion's doll.
WitchOfDoubt
2011-11-12, 06:25
What does Bernkastel talking about when she said this "lion came from a Bigger cat box than Beato" ?
It seems pretty clear that Bernkastel got Lion into the game by including the possibility that the baby from eighteen years ago didn't fall off a cliff (and thus, Lion). Presumably that makes this cat box "bigger" because in the six previous games that possibility did not exist.
Depending on how you read the story, the phrase 'cat box' can mean:
* A place where witches can live.
* A place where mysteries exist to be solved.
* A place that is unknowable.
* A torture chamber.
* A beautiful, secret world created for us alone. (see: the coffin)
These meanings are not mutually exclusive. A human mind can be all five. What did Bern mean, though?
Fantasy interpretation: The island during the storm is a 'cat box.' After the explosion and the death of the last survivor, no human can penetrate the mystery around it. Witches can and do live in that place and time.
However, unless the people on the island left verified, unforged records of their past histories, any non-public parts of their prior lives are ALSO 'cat boxes'. We can't prove or disprove that the child died or even existed. So the witches have free reign over their history and all possible histories. Bernkastel can grab Lion right out of a universe where he exists, and nobody can falsify that - nobody can prove that Witches can't reach into the past.
Mystery interpretation: If we view the game as a solvable mystery, Bernkastel is telling us that it is a mystery within a mystery. If we want to solve the mystery of the night of the storm, we must widen our deductions to also include information from years before the storm, and consider even the slenderest possibilities.
After all, in mystery novels, even highly improbable chains of events are allowed if the individual links are even remotely plausible. Bernkastel just wants to show us one such case. Won't you accept her gracious help?
Anti-Mystery, Anti-Fantasy Interpretation: (My preferred answer)
Bernkastel represents the self-tormenting part of Ange that is only prepared to accept the worst possible explanation. We've had hints that Bernkastel is Ange's 'imaginary enemy,' but EP7 really shows us how far Ange's imagination will go to make her unhappy.
In this case, what Bern (subtly) means by using a 'bigger cat box' is that even if you invent an explanation for the unknown events at the conference, widening your gaze to include the past offers plenty of new opportunities for painful disillusionment.
After all, no matter how big you make the cat box, the cat will still suffer from being trapped in the box. You know that the cat is suffering, don't you? You're just afraid to admit it. I guarantee that the cat's story does not have a happy ending!
* In the Fantasy interpretation, witches can create, or at least manipulate, 'cat boxes.' Ange is just one more piece trapped inside Lambda and Bern's secret box, a plaything of witches. In this case, the witches can literally make the boxes big or small. Bern means that she really is going out and looking at a wider set of universes in order to find Lion!
* In the Mystery interpretation, tricksters create apparent 'cat boxes,' sometimes boxes inside of boxes, and detectives prove that the truth can really be found. Ange is dared to find the truth of Rokkenjima and destroy the box. In this case, Bern just means that she's suggesting a hypothesis we've missed, a clue we haven't considered: Lion.
* In the Anti-Mystery, Anti-Fantasy interpretation, reality creates uncertain or unknowable situations, and we try to cope with them as best we can. In this case, Bern and Lambda, along with most of the cast, are trapped inside the unknowable 'cat box' inside Ange, her imagination. Bern is widening Ange's set of imagined possible worlds in order to bring more unpleasantness to the fore.
Regardless of the above, I suspect that the only way for Ange to win is by realizing that the future is even more of a 'cat box' than the past, and that no matter what she fills it with, it's probably a better place to live than the days she's been reliving over and over. By increasing the size of the 'cat box' in the wrong direction - into the past - Bern is making this realization that much harder.
But I haven't played the untranslated EP 8, and I am a little scared that this will all end with Ange's 'cat box' colliding at high speed with the pavement.
LawfulNuetral
2011-11-12, 23:57
I like WitchOfDoubt's line of thinking, I also prefer the Anti-Mystery, Anti-Fantasy Interpretation.
WitchOfDoubt
2011-11-13, 01:58
Well, even if I favor it, I'm not posting here to really argue for it, but just to point out that the line about a "bigger cat box" is unsurprisingly ambiguous.
Anyway, the number one problem with AM, AF is that if you take it too seriously, it can ruin the fun of the mysteries. But then again, when I feel the need to take any interpretation of Umineko seriously, I find that the following magical spell makes that feeling go away:
Round about the island go,
Butterflies that flit and glow,
Even though it's quite a pain
Flying through that goddamn rain.
Rifle bunnies, talking stakes,
Buried monies, giant cakes,
Triple, triple, fears that cripple,
Fragments break and Fragments ripple!
Tears of seagull (often cryin'),
Tail of cat and dick of lion,
Blood from Krauss's vena cava,
Skin of Rudolf, tongue of Eva
Tongue of Eva, tongue of Eva,
Tongue of Eva, tongue of Eva,
Triple, triple, fears that cripple,
Fragments break and Fragments ripple!
By the clicking of my mouse,
Something derpy's in the house!
unsuspectingvisitor
2011-11-13, 03:18
Well, even if I favor it, I'm not posting here to really argue for it, but just to point out that the line about a "bigger cat box" is unsurprisingly ambiguous.
Anyway, the number one problem with AM, AF is that if you take it too seriously, it can ruin the fun of the mysteries. But then again, when I feel the need to take any interpretation of Umineko seriously, I find that the following magical spell makes that feeling go away:
Round about the island go,
Butterflies that flit and glow,
Even though it's quite a pain
Flying through that goddamn rain.
Rifle bunnies, talking stakes,
Buried monies, giant cakes,
Triple, triple, fears that cripple,
Fragments break and Fragments ripple!
Tears of seagull (often cryin'),
Tail of cat and dick of lion,
Blood from Krauss's vena cava,
Skin of Rudolf, tongue of Eva
Tongue of Eva, tongue of Eva,
Tongue of Eva, tongue of Eva,
Triple, triple, fears that cripple,
Fragments break and Fragments ripple!
By the clicking of my mouse,
Something derpy's in the house!
Yeah agreed. The "bigger cat box thing" was so ambiguous that's why its hard to understand. Ah actually im not absolutely sure whether berkastel said that phrase or not since i just relied on my memory on that one.
Anywho, I noticed something interesting about Ep7.
I remember Bernkastel claims to found a single fragment where the baby was accepted by natsuhi, Which grows up to be lion. In the confession, Yasu met kinzo after she solved the epitapt and called her lion. If that part of the confession is true then it means Yasu was the only person that knows about the lion thing though i think.
Now the question is "Who created that Fragment with lion in it" ? Was it yasu?. If so does it means that she survived the incident?
ahh im confused now.
AuraTwilight
2011-11-13, 04:41
She need not have survived the incident, though it does seem like Lion is a fantasy of hers she had. A daydream. Perhaps she write it down somewhere, or perhaps EP7 is purely meta and was never written down in Rokkenjima Prime.
Or maybe whoever wrote EP7 made it up, including the "Lion" name being given to Yasu.
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