Macross Frontier 2nd Movie: Sayonara no Tsubasa [Archive] - Page 14

karice67

2011-11-08, 16:39

マクロスF 恋離飛翼～サヨナラノツバサ～

恋離飛翼 is more complicated as it is inspired by a number of Chinese phrases meaning love and/or the unbreakable bond between husband and wife. For example, two twigs on the same branch (連理之枝), two birds flying side by side (比翼之鳥). In this case, using a more literal translation, it means the lovers had been temporarily separated, but their wings will eventually bring them back together.

Take as what you will ;)

- Tak
There is actually a Japanese compound that it is related to, which means 'marital vows', though I very much like your interpretation of what it means. Here's a bit of the discussion about it in an interview in the Sheryl manga (vol.3):

(Editor): From the subtitle, “[~the wings of love’s separation]” [「恋離飛翼」= ren-ri-hi-yoku] I got the image of “marital vows” [「比翼連理」= hi-yoku-ren-ri], the phrase that gives us the meaning of “two as one”.

Kawamori: Besides “two as one”, those two (things) are not things that are similar, but rather there is a sense that they are of different natures. To be precise, we could say they are “three things of (three) different natures”. When that are completely different meet, something new is born – something like that. From the start, all Macross works are permeated by this theme of overcoming culture shock, overcoming the culture gap, and giving birth to something new.

Koyama: Sheryl and Ranka, Alto. Woman and man…that kind of meeting?

Kawamori: That’s one of them. The film was constructed so that you can figure out the outline from your first viewing, but those kinds of meanings are doubly or triply loaded into it. *snip

I'll be posting more of this interview another time...but whilst I'm at it...

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Here's Endo Aya, Nakamura Yuuichi and Nakajima Megumi, in their joint interview
Sayonara no Tsubasa "Official Complete Book", p.54-57

Disclaimer/notes:
sometimes, translating Japanese really frustrates me, because there are so many things you could read in more than one way. The parts where I’ve put in a fair amount of interpretation are marked in . Hopefully, it’s generally accurate otherwise – but if anyone spots any mistakes, please let me know! ——karice

Some of the background/setting is different from that of the series, so what are your impressions of your characters in the second film?

Endo: Until now, Sheryl has been depicted as someone with the strong feelings of “I live to sing, I sing to live”. However, because of her illness, she’s confronted with the ultimate choice of “Should I die? Should I leave behind just my songs?” I think there is an increased sense of how close to the edge she is. But I was really surprised that she showed that weak side of hers. Rather than saying it’s her feminine side, it’s her girlish side. If you think about it, Sheryl is someone who, rather than just saying “why?” would exclaim “why?!” But with a “why is that?” she relies on Alto. I’m not saying that becoming weak is a girlish thing, but rather that I was left with the impression that, in front of Alto, Sheryl’s true self slowly came out. But not just about Alto – she must have been suffering over many things in that scene where she’s hugging a knee to herself; I think there is a really human depth to her that cannot be expressed in just one or two words.

Nakajima: This time, rather than “why is it me?”, I was left with the strong impression that Ranka is a forward-facing person who thinks along the lines of “work is fun; the person I like is here”, so I feel that she’s really grown up. Looking back now, I think that it may have been singing with Sheryl in the final scene of the previous film that changed her. Sheryl was hiding the fact that she was ill, but I think that, beside her, Ranka could feel her aspiration to squeeze every drop of life . Following that, with the experiences of just a few months, I feel that Ranka really became much more mature. On top of that, I felt that the songs were more than just BGM – they were extensions of her feelings. Especially during the medleys, but I really got the impression that her songs were ringing with emotion for the entire film, along the lines of “if (she) thought in this way, this song would fall apart”. Rather than just ‘singing’, she’s desperately trying to convey something through her songs. I’m really happy to have met a Ranka who was able to take in what Sheryl taught her about ‘living through songs’, and it [feels good] when I link her with myself, the me who’s been singing as Ranka.

Nakamura: I felt that Alto has become someone who listens to others. In the TV series as well as the previous film, the Vajra were ‘enemies’ that he had to defeat in order to protect the people around him – that’s what I was strongly conscious of. However, he was unable to deny the thought that Ranka shared with him: “if they’re living entities, don’t you think they might have feelings too?” If it were the Alto until now, he would have just laughed and dismissed it, but those words stayed with him even as he continued fighting. When I think about how someone would struggle to come to terms with it if what they think and what they have to experience don’t match, I wonder if that’s how people grow up. Looking back at the TV series, in the end, until Alto made up his mind, it only worked negatively for him. In both movies, however, it’s worked positively for him right from the start. Rather that ‘acting out the role others want of him so that he’d appear nice to everyone’, a throwback to his time as an actor, he’s become someone who’s ‘sensitive and understands the feelings of others’. I consciously tried to bring that out in my own acting.

[B]Favourite Scene #1: Nakamura Yuuichi
The scene where Alto catches Michel’s fist
http://pics.livejournal.com/karice67/pic/000wd77g/s320 (http://pics.livejournal.com/karice67/pic/000wd77g)
The scene where Alto tells Michel “What’s wrong with grieving?” is the one that struck me the most. I don’t think it’s something that the Alto of the TV series could have said, so I’m really glad that he’s become someone who can say this kind of thing.

And what were the scenes that left the greatest impression on you?

Nakajima: For me, it was the scene where Ranka went to see Sheryl at Alcatraz. I felt that Ranka’s exclamation of “weren’t you like this yourself?!” showed just how much she was thinking about Sheryl. And the following developments, until the point where she makes the decision to break Sheryl out, reveal a fountain of strength that Ranka hasn’t showed until now. More than just looking up to Sheryl as a singer, I think it’s due to the fact that, as a person, she wants to accompany her. It was a pretty harsh scene, but I was really glad it was there.

Endo: I think Sheryl felt really frustrated, having to be told off so directly by Ranka like that. But even then, it was a shock when she put herself down, “because I’m going to die”. Even her line about liking Alto was said as it if were an old emotion – rather than giving up, it’s like she had thrown it away. That’s really unlike her – it was a Sheryl I really didn’t want to see. The prison also felt horrifyingly real (to me), [it would be terribly dark for this Sheryl to have to live out the last of her days there.]*

[I]*this is what I think Endo means – the grammar seems to imply something that just didn’t make sense to me. [s]If Tak or Yot-chan, or anyone else could check it, that’ll be great. Thanks!! ——karice

Nakajima: It was also shocking to see her writing lyrics on the wall in her own blood. I really felt that I wanted to save her from that place.

Endo: At that point, the thought that came to my mind was that Sheryl really finds comfort in music. Ranka’s song is another factor, as is the fact that Alto listened to her – that’s why she was able to squeeze her feelings out. Without the two of them, [Sheryl wouldn’t have made it], she wouldn’t never have realised many things about herself. Though seeing Alto cross dress was amazing…

Nakamura: Though when he spoke, it was his normal voice (laughs). That was a pretty delicate scene to act out. Were he still the Alto we’ve seen until now, I think he would probably have made fun of her when he saw the lyrics on the wall. In that line of “Lyrics? Even at this point?”, (you) had to leave out even the sense of “you’d go this far”… If it were me, I’d have made fun of her, so I really had to suppress myself to act that out.

Endo / Nakajima: You’re horrible!

Nakamura: In the scene where Sheryl visits Alto in his hospital room, I couldn’t completely suppress myself. I ended up thinking that I still had a long way to go too. At my age, pretending that an apple was an aeroplane and making it go “zoom” was pretty rough (laughs).

Endo: The exchange there also had Sheryl voicing her true feelings. You wouldn’t call it a transient moment of peace, but I liked it for its warmth. At the recording session though, I remember you (Nakamura) putting on a shy front.

Nakamura: heheh. For us too, watching that made all our hearts beat a bit faster.

Endo: The scene that hit me hardest was the one where Grace’s true identity is exposed, the one where she is shot at. When I hear “Diamond Crevasse” I always think of Grace, so I was like “you’re playing this song here!?” I thought it really sad for Sheryl, who was already suffering because of her illness, to have even Grace stolen from her.

Nakajima: When she was arrested and put in prison, Sheryl didn’t resist. In that, I really felt her love for Grace. She put so much trust in her, and carried out her role as a spy to the end.

Endo: Yup, Sheryl didn’t know her own parents, so I feel like she really regarded Grace as her mother. Even though they weren’t related by blood, I was happy that they were able to become mother and daughter in the end.

Nakamura: I was also really moved by the scene where Grace says “You were raised by me”*. I feel that they’ve represented Grace being freed from the brainwashing really conscientiously – even though she was the ‘final boss’ in the TV series, [‘this is how it came about’ is what I thought]. This time, there was very little about “using Sheryl”, wasn’t there? We were able to see Grace really taking care of Sheryl from the time she was a child, so I really felt that she was a [good person].

*I actually prefer “You’re my child, after all”. Just feels a bit more natural to me, English-wise ——karice

Favourite Scene #2: Endo Aya
The young Sheryl who vowed to become a singer
http://pics.livejournal.com/karice67/pic/000wez1d/s320 (http://pics.livejournal.com/karice67/pic/000wez1d)
When I read the Sheryl manga, I really thought that ‘I want to see this kind of scene’! (Until now), the young Sheryl had always been depicted in that rundown state, so I’m really glad we got to see her once Grace had (found her and) given her beautiful clothes to wear.

Endo: Whilst making the previous film, I’d already heard from the director that Sheryl and Alto had met as children. But for you (Nakamura), this was the first you knew of it, right?

Nakamura: That’s right. Just as Alto had forgotten about it, I didn’t know about it. But I thought that if there was such at episode, it’d be “fate”…[or to put it another way], I thought there might be something that would show how Sheryl became special/important for Alto*.

*Pretty certain he’s referring to chibi Sheryl’s comment about Alto being like a celestial maiden flying in the sky. ——karice

Endo: Megumi, when Ozma and Brera have their “Big Brother Show-down”, who is Ranka’s “Oni-chan!” referring to?

Nakajima: If it were the normal Ranka, I think it’d be Ozma, but my instinct is that she was addressing Brera as well. The Ranka from distant memory and the one that has grown up, it’s like both of them are calling out together. Both of them are incomparable, older brothers. And so, having them both come straight for her this time, being able to feel their familial love even on the battlefield made me really happy.

Nakamura: Other than that, in terms of the visuals, because there wasn’t even a picture, much less any effects, I was quite impressed by what they did with the YF-29 in the last battle. [They made it really easy to understand what was going on.]

Endo: The scene where the Quarter appears behind the church with a bang was really cool! I thought that the juxtapositioning of those two disparate elements was pretty interesting.

Nakajima: And for me, definitely Ranka’s concert! She’d never performed on such a large stage before this, and I was really happy that they used some of the choreography from my own concerts.

Nakamura: I’d give them full marks for (fan) service – they gave us two completely different concerts. [Ranka’s, with an idol-like atmosphere, and one full of charisma for Sheryl.]

How did you feel about the last scene, where the triangle was finally settled?

Nakamura: The last scene, where Alto made his decision, was just a blank page in the script we were given. It was only at the recording session that we were presented with it for the first time. It made sense for Ranka and Sheryl, who were told at that point, but I thought that, because I had to act as Alto, I at least should have known. But for some reason, [the director made it] a surprise. At the very least, I’d like to have known in the scene before he heads out for battle, the one where Ranka appears in a school uniform, [that “Huh? Is something the matter?” scene.*]

*I found this really amusing…because he’s put it in a very girlish way that doesn't really come across in translation, which explains what Aya says next… ——karice

Endo: That’s how you said it?

Nakamura: ‘Course not. At first, it was “Why are you in a uniform?!”, which was really difficult to say, so I had them change it to “Why are you wearing a…” Of course, it’s puzzling that it’s a uniform, but it wasn’t the time or place to needle her about it. Alto also hugged her after that, didn’t he? I felt that he really had understood her feelings at that point.

Nakajima: I also realised, somehow, that Ranka would be turned down…

Nakamura: Yeah, I was like “Oh god.” [I knew that if he didn’t do something like squeeze her hand really tightly at this point, there’d be no end to the booing I’d receive.]

Nakajima: I know I know – he’s just showing his friendship with that hug, right?! I think that, for Ranka, it was something like “Ah…he’d do this much for me…” Alto really is too gentle in this film – heart-breakingly so.

Endo: A young gentleness, right? But during the recording session, I thought that the impact of Alto’s final words would change depending on the extent to which they were drowned out by the blast.

Nakamura: At the recording, I finished the line properly, and left the final decisions in the hands of the director. When we actually go to see the completed film, it was like “ah, so this is how much they could hear.”

Personally, I thought it was a climax where you could, once again, realise just how cool the protagonist, Alto, was.

Nakajima: I know what you mean! To me, rather than as a pilot or as a high school student, this was Alto as his coolest as a “man”. Like, “Ranka, it’s great that you fell in love with this person, isn’t it?”

Endo: That’s precisely why it’s so sad. Alto’s expression at the point, and Nakamura’s delivery, were so gentle. So much so that, at the recording, without thinking, I just turned to Nakamura and pressed him about it. “That line of Alto’s was really gentle, wasn’t it? Wasn’t it?” (laughs). It was gentle, yet sad, and also tender. During the recording, we were all desperately trying to carry out our own roles, so looking back now, it’s an inexpressible feeling, isn’t it?

Nakajima: I don’t know whether he left on a journey elsewhere or whatnot, but I think Alto himself probably realised roughly what would happen to him, and that’s why he chose to confess his love at that point. When I reflect on that, it’s really sad.

What (which scene) do you think was the deciding factor that made Alto choose Sheryl?

Nakamura: Hm…all I can say is that he found himself charmed by her without even being aware of it. In the sense that if you asked him “when did you fall in love?” he’d reply “by the time I realised, I was already in love.” I think that Alto, who became the “wings” carrying [the girls’] feelings, just felt [realised?] something and finally put it to words, to those final words.

At the end, it was surprising that the name Ranka was calling was Sheryl’s.

Nakajima: Yes, as she was previously, I think Ranka would definitely have been calling for Alto, but this time she rushed over to Sheryl’s side. If you think about it, [falling for Alto – maybe that’s what Ranka wanted to confirm for herself by telling him about it]. Even after realizing where his feelings lay, the reason she didn’t cry about it was perhaps because she quickly moved on to the feeling of “so you’ll protect Sheryl [for us], right?” So, at the end, she’s thinking “She really needs you, so why are you disappearing, Al- ... … Sheryl. Sheryl!!” or something along those lines (laughs).

Endo: Sheryl could only react with a “Wha——t..!” to the shock, but Ranka, because of all the things she’s felt, there must have been so many things she had to digest at that point. In this film, I feel that Ranka is really reliable, she’s a step above Alto and Sheryl. In the previous film, she was still calling out for her mother, but now, she’s overcome even the gender distinction and become something of a goddess, an amazing existence. As expected of “the guiding hand of the wind”.

Favourite Scene #3: Nakajima Megumi
The scene where Ranka is late in meeting Alto
http://pics.livejournal.com/karice67/pic/000wf30w/s320 (http://pics.livejournal.com/karice67/pic/000wf30w)
I was really surprised to see her greet Alto with a ‘Heheh, did you wait long?’ Prior to this, I think she’d have madly dashed up with a ‘I’m sorry! Did you wait long!?” In contrast to Sheryl who’s showing more of her unadulterated self, I feel Ranka’s inner ‘little rouge’ coming out a bit more.

Nakajima: This time, we were able to see a more girlish side of Sheryl. In contrast, Ranka seems to have been much closer to the Vajra, you could even say she was speaking with the Vajra’s feelings in many of the scenes. Though rather than saying that’s their true nature, I feel that the most important aspects of their characters were emphasized. In a different way to the TV series, you can say that “so this is Ranka”, and “so this is Sheryl”.

Ranka too, although Alto was unable to return her feelings, if you look at her story as one of “the birth of an idol”, you get a different feeling.

Nakajima: Yes. Though it’s not like we decided on an order of precedence, from start to end, what really came through to me was that “the path of an idol” was the biggest path that Ranka was threading in this film.

Frankly speaking, what are your thoughts after seeing it through to the credits?

Nakamura: In the end, I think it’s a finale where its fine if each viewer comes up with his/her own interpretation. If you’re asking for what I think…that’s a secret. They’ve gone to great pains to make sure everyone can take it the way they want, so I think it’d be wrong to talk about it here, where it might be taken for an official comment.

Endo: It’s somewhat difficult for people to regard our thoughts as those of just another viewer, after all. But I’m sure that the feelings we have are similar to what you all feel – sorrow, sadness, peace of mind…and so on.

Nakajima: For me as well, because sound director Mima told me during the recording session that “this is a story of happiness”, I thought [along the following lines]. It really feels like we were drawn into the world of “Macross F”, so that these weren’t anime characters, but rather, we were witness to the lives of people who actually lived.

Endo: It’s a strange feeling, isn’t it? Like we were watching something that’s non-fiction.

Finally, “Macross F” has at long last reached its finale, so please tell us what the series means for you.

Nakamura: I think it will accompany me for the rest of my life. Just as everyone who has ever been involved in Macross until now has been supported by the respective series, I want to keep protecting the precious memories of having been allowed to be involved in it.

Endo: For me as well, it’s become something that will be with me for life. Sheryl’s something that May’n and I created together, and she became a really profound character, someone that I feel really exists somewhere. I still want to see her in action again, to meet her once again. I know that the staff also had a lot of fun creating her. I’m really glad to have been able to be a part of a project that everyone wanted to be involved in.

Nakajima: Back when I was fretting over my future in my third year of high school, if I had not met Ranka in what I’d decided would be my last audition, I wouldn’t be here today. In the sense of “my music is my life”, this series has really become, in a sense, “my life”. From now on, no matter how old I become, I want to be a me that will never be embarrassing to Ranka, who has changed me so much!

BetoJR

2011-11-08, 18:20

Wow, that was great. Thanks, karice. Still need time for it all to sink in, tho...

magnuskn

2011-11-08, 18:32

Endo: For me as well, it’s become something that will be with me for life. Sheryl’s something that May’n and I created together, and she became a really profound character, someone that I feel really exists somewhere. I still want to see her in action again, to meet her once again

Yeah, I feel pretty much the same. :upset:

Wow, Nakamura really is kind of a jerk. Although I agree with him about what was the best Alto scene of the movie. I feel he is wrong on the account of series Alto not being able to express himself the same way, if he would have been put in a similar situation.

And many thanks to you, karice, for this excellent translation! :)

MichiNekoChan

2011-11-08, 19:09

Nakamura: At the recording, I finished the line properly, and left the final decisions in the hands of the director. When we actually go to see the completed film, it was like “ah, so this is how much they could hear.”

I think Nakamura saying that he said/finished the confession in full was a bit surprising. I wish we could have heard it in full too.

Frankly speaking, what are your thoughts after seeing it through to the credits?

Nakamura: In the end, I think it’s a finale where its fine if each viewer comes up with his/her own interpretation. If you’re asking for what I think…that’s a secret. They’ve gone to great pains to make sure everyone can take it the way they want, so I think it’d be wrong to talk about it here, where it might be taken for an official comment.

Damn, I really wanted to hear his take on it too :<

Thank you, so much Karice for translating!

Yot-chan

2011-11-08, 19:11

Thank you for the interview, Karice. I know how much effort and work and plain FRUSTRATION these things are, so BRAVO!!

Endo: I think Sheryl felt really frustrated, having to be told off so directly by Ranka like that. But even then, it was a shock when she put herself down, “because I’m going to die”. Even her line about liking Alto was said as it if were an old emotion – rather than giving up, it’s like she had thrown it away. That’s really unlike her – it was a Sheryl I really didn’t want to see. The prison also felt horrifyingly real (to me), *

[I]*this is what I think Endo means – the grammar seems to imply something that just didn’t make sense to me. If Tak or Yot-chan, or anyone else could check it, that’ll be great. ——karice
I think you're pretty much right...personally, I'd just add that she seems to be emphasizing that it would be incredibly dark for THIS Sheryl (i.e. the Sheryl who had thrown her emotion away) to stay in the prison, a world without light. But yeah...that doesn't really alter the meaning much, does it?

germanturkey

2011-11-08, 19:14

i like the deeper meaning of the name of the second movie. affirmation of correct ship ;)

Karice, thanks for that interview.

Tak

2011-11-08, 19:34

Thanks Karice, for picking up my slack and allowing lil' ol' me to remain LAZY...

- Tak

sa547

2011-11-08, 20:09

That was EPIC, Karice. :D

karice67

2011-11-08, 22:08

You're all quite welcome. As long as at least a few of you find it interesting/useful, it was worth it.

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Wow, that was great. Thanks, karice. Still need time for it all to sink in, tho...No worries. I think I'll be taking a little bit of a break too, before looking at the next four walls of text...:heh:

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Yeah, I feel pretty much the same. :upset:On that note, I really am curious about what they'll be doing with her website (http://www.sheryl-nome.net/)...

Wow, Nakamura really is kind of a jerk. Strangely enough, he also revealed a more sensitive side in this interview: At first, it was “Why are you in a uniform?!”, which was really difficult to say, so I had them change it to “Why are you wearing a…” Of course, it’s puzzling that it’s a uniform, but it wasn’t the time or place to needle her about it.So what is the real Nakamura like? A jerk with a heart of gold? :heh:

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Damn, I really wanted to hear his take on it too :<I guess that the only way that will probably be possible is to go to Japan and ask him directly...

edit:...nevermind, they talk about it a bit in one of the interview specials on the BD...

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I think you're pretty much right...personally, I'd just add that she seems to be emphasizing that it would be incredibly dark for THIS Sheryl (i.e. the Sheryl who had thrown her emotion away) to stay in the prison, a world without light. But yeah...that doesn't really alter the meaning much, does it?It may seem small, but I still think it's important. Thank you for checking and catching that! ^^

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Thanks Karice, for picking up my slack and allowing lil' ol' me to remain LAZY...

- TakWhy you little...:frustrated: :p

Darthtabby

2011-11-09, 00:24

I definitely appreciate your translation work, Karice. :) There are definitely times when I wish I knew Japanese myself.

Dash_Hunter

2011-11-09, 01:05

Thank you for translating this interview, Karice. It's very much appreciated. :bow:

j0wjow

2011-11-09, 16:39

Thanks so much Karice. I enjoyed reading your translation.
God.. We still can't break free of Macross F can we?

Shiroth

2011-11-09, 16:49

Repeating everyone here, but thanks for the fantastic translation Karice. It's nice to be able to read something we usually wouldn't. :)

Thess

2011-11-09, 17:36

karice67

2011-11-10, 04:02

You have a saintly patience to translate that, Karice! Thank you. :heh:

So it's confirmed that Sheryl's a spy, then? I knew it. And she does it for her love for Grace, I also suspected that. I was rewatching the first movie and something Brera told Sheryl caught my attention:

He apologizes because the Vajra attack on Frontier happened before they had predicted. So they knew the Vajra were going to attack Frontier?I haven't had time to look at the first film again, but I'm sure Sheryl knew about the plans in general. Although it's questionable what she'd been told about the reasons for them - e.g. it seems that she'd been told that it was for the purpose of protecting people.

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On another note, I FINALLY had the chance to sit down to rewatch the film in its entirety (NOTHING beats the first viewing, though I suppose I'd have enjoyed it more if I wasn't :eyebrow: at the sub every few minutes)....

A certain HQ group has released it, with a modified script. I'd suggest checking it out, though I can't vouch for their subs myself, having not seen them. (Hopefully, their translation checker actually had a Japanese script on hand - they were released with the special edition, after all!)

This new release, however, is also 10-bit. So if you can't use it for any reason, and want another sub pronto, here (http://www.mediafire.com/?84g81zb7fz2f4zk)'s a quick edit I did (though you have to mux it yourself). There are a couple of bits that I wasn't sure about, so I just left them, and I didn't bother doing anything about the lyrics. But I fixed the important stuff.

edit (16 Nov): it really was a very QUICK edit. There are lots of minor corrections that I missed/forgot about when editing (I may go over it again, depending on what the other released subs are like), so please give me some leeway over that.

edit (29 Nov): link removed. See my signature for updated subs. I still haven't got my copy of the scripts, and I don't really have time to go over the lyrics, so please excuse any errors...but otherwise, it's up to you whether you trust my translation or not...:)

edit (Jan 2011): There's a pretty reliable group out. I suggest getting those ones...
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MichiNekoChan

2011-11-10, 04:42

Fantastic job with the subs there Karice.

If people don't know how to remux if you have WMPClassic its easy (all I did was drag and drop onto WMPClassic once the movie was opened)

Also, I only watched certian scenes that I think Commie needed some more flow and clearer translation on and in those scenes you're translation helped out a lot.

Seriously I cannot give you enough thanks. (so REP for you!)

Side note - I rewatched the end confession scene, and the "love" at the end got all wonky with characters after the "v". Not sure if its just my player or the .ass was loaded in wrong. Someone double check to make sure if it not just me please.

I'll re-watch the movie in full with these subs once I can get my boyfriend to stop playing BF3 long enough to watch it.

karice67

2011-11-10, 05:00

You're welcome.

Side note - I rewatched the end confession scene, and the "love" at the end got all wonky with characters after the "v". Not sure if its just my player or the .ass was loaded in wrong. Someone double check to make sure if it not just me please.
Though...er, I should have checked that confession scene. I've edited it again and added a line so that the timing hopefully works a bit better...:heh:

It's now an "I lov-" line, and it's working fine on my computer...

magnuskn

2011-11-10, 07:17

One thing that is a bit unfair, is that Ranka has gotten the far better songs in movie two. Oh, well, she had to win at something. ^^

BetoJR

2011-11-10, 07:37

IMHO, neither one had any good new songs this time around. But I'm still on the fence about the whole soundtrack...

magnuskn

2011-11-10, 08:18

IMHO, neither one had any good new songs this time around. But I'm still on the fence about the whole soundtrack...

Oh, I definitely liked Rankas concert song and the song from the ending of the movie very much ( I don't mean the duet with Sheryl, but the other one... although the duet with Sheryl was fine, too ).

Yot-chan

2011-11-10, 11:34

One thing that is a bit unfair, is that Ranka has gotten the far better songs in movie two. Oh, well, she had to win at something. ^^
I think you've got to have a pretty cold heart to begrudge her her fame in this one. In the first movie, it was pretty much All Sheryl, All the Time, with Ranka getting some campaign songs as a consolation prize.

But yeah...while "Sayonara no Tsubasa" is (to me, at least) as fraught with tension and drama as "Diamond Crevasse," I find myself humming "Nijiiro Kuma Kuma" at the oddest times...it's so damn CATCHY!

BetoJR

2011-11-10, 11:55

Yeah, still not feeling Sayonara no Tsubasa, myself. Even more when you compare it to Diamond Crevasse, which ended up tying with Fly Me To The Moon for my "favorite song ever" spot...

magnuskn

2011-11-10, 11:59

I think you've got to have a pretty cold heart to begrudge her her fame in this one. In the first movie, it was pretty much All Sheryl, All the Time, with Ranka getting some campaign songs as a consolation prize.

Oh, I don't begrudge her that at all. As I said, I enjoyed Rankas songs in the second movie much more than Sheryls.

[QUOTE=Yot-chan;3851238]But yeah...while "Sayonara no Tsubasa" is (to me, at least) as fraught with tension and drama as "Diamond Crevasse," I find myself humming "Nijiiro Kuma Kuma" at the oddest times...it's so damn CATCHY!

That's the one with "Open Ranka!"? Because that one really is damned catchy. :D

Yot-chan

2011-11-10, 12:02

Yeah, still not feeling Sayonara no Tsubasa, myself. Even more when you compare it to Diamond Crevasse, which ended up tying with Fly Me To The Moon for my "favorite song ever" spot...
Really...?!

Valkyria...da-da-da-DUH-DUH-DUH!! Valkyria...da-DA-da...DUH!-DUH!-DENH!!

You feel NOTHING...???

Damn...some folks are hard to please, I guess...

Yot-chan

2011-11-10, 12:03

That's the one with "Open Ranka!"? Because that one really is damned catchy. :D
Yep. Ranka's greatest song, BAR NONE.

Shiroth

2011-11-10, 12:18

That's the one with "Open Ranka!"? Because that one really is damned catchy. :D
That 'Open Ranka' part is my text message tone. Works like a charm. :D

Would 'Rainbow Coloured Bear' be the correct translation for that song?

Yot-chan

2011-11-10, 12:24

Would 'Rainbow Coloured Bear' be the correct translation for that song?
That works.

"Rainbow Bear-Bear" also works.

Shiroth

2011-11-10, 12:28

"Rainbow Bear-Bear" also works.
I much prefer that title. :p

BetoJR

2011-11-10, 12:49

You guys are weird.

Yot-chan

2011-11-10, 12:51

You guys are weird.
LISTEN TO RANKA'S SONG!!!

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f344/GoStopBlvd/ranka.jpg

Tak

2011-11-10, 12:53

You guys are weird.

And you are unique... just like everyone else... :p

LISTEN TO RANKA'S SONG!!!

Hey, thats my sister!

- Tak

Shiroth

2011-11-10, 12:56

Hey, thats my sister!

- Tak
That explains everything. :p

magnuskn

2011-11-10, 12:57

Hm, that pretty much really looks like how a real-life Ranka would probably look.

Hey, thats my sister!

- Tak

So, are you Ozma or Banana?

Thess

2011-11-10, 13:51

One thing that is a bit unfair, is that Ranka has gotten the far better songs in movie two. Oh, well, she had to win at something. ^^

I usually prefer Sheryl's songs, but Hoshi Kira and Sou Da Yo (from the first movie ending) are simply beautiful.

MichiNekoChan

2011-11-10, 23:00

Yep. Ranka's greatest song, BAR NONE.

Yea, I've been creeping people out around me when I randomly go "rimareru rarameru ran rura ran" and "OPEN RANKA!"

It's a ridiculously catchy song. Thing is too, that it wasn't even anywhere near my playlist until to movie came out. I didn't like Nijiro Kuma Kuma by itself, but now knowing the visuals... I like it a lot.

Darthtabby

2011-11-10, 23:07

So it's confirmed that Sheryl's a spy, then? I knew it. And she does it for her love for Grace, I also suspected that. I was rewatching the first movie and something Brera told Sheryl caught my attention:

He apologizes because the Vajra attack on Frontier happened before they had predicted. So they knew the Vajra were going to attack Frontier?I haven't had time to look at the first film again, but I'm sure Sheryl knew about the plans in general. Although it's questionable what she'd been told about the reasons for them - e.g. it seems that she'd been told that it was for the purpose of protecting people.

Grace's dialogue seems to suggest that Sheryl's mission was to find Code Q-1 (Ranka) and act as stopgap in the meantime. I got the impression Sheryl thought her job was to act as a countermeasure against the Vajra rather than as a means to take control of them and take over the galaxy though.

Grace definitely made Sheryl aware of her nasty plans she had for Ranka in the second film but I don't she told Sheryl about the planned takeover of Frontier. Her behaviour during her interactions with Alto at the hospital wasn't consistent with her being aware of that.

As for the Vajra showing up... Sheryl might have been aware of the risk that her signing would attract them but I don't think it was her plan to lure them to Frontier. I don't think her freaking out the times they showed up in the first movie was acting (on a related note, she seemed awfully outraged by Alto and Frontier's behaviour towards her and her home fleet in the first movie, which is interesting considering it wasn't entirely without justification).

It should be noted that the last time I saw Itsuwari no Utahime in full was right before I watched Sayonara no Tsubasa, and that I'm a Sheryl fan who would like to see movie Sheryl's actions in a positive light. So take what I've said with a grain of salt.

On a related note has anyone else wondered if movie Sheryl would actually get a happy ending after she woke up? Regardless of what she may have done to redeem herself some of the stuff she was involved in was pretty serious.

karice67

2011-11-10, 23:30

On a related note has anyone else wondered if movie Sheryl would actually get a happy ending after she woke up? Regardless of what she may have done to redeem herself some of the stuff she was involved in was pretty serious.'History is written by the victors'. Do keep in mind, that many of these 'crimes' depend on the eye of the beholder. As some commentators in the field I am currently studying are known to note: one person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter.

Furthermore, the people who were going to have her killed have themselves been killed...

Not to mention that the people of Frontier have far more important things to do: i.e. building their new lives...

IMHO, these are some of the issues that some viewers probably need to keep in mind for the series too.

======

edit: And being able to watch the film again has really improved my appreciation of the soundtrack, my favourites from the 2nd film being "Hoshi Kira" and the title song. The only song I don't particular care for at the moment is "Koi ha Dogfight"...it's just...*shrugs*. But I've been listening to the soundtrack shuffled with all the songs from the series and the first movie for the last 7 months, so sometimes don't even remember where each first appears :heh:

ChronoReverse

2011-11-11, 00:37

magnuskn

2011-11-11, 04:48

It's not like they were particularly convincing about Sheryl being a spy. All they said was, "She's a spy who led the Vajra here and we're executing her now without a trial".

You can see the citizens of Frontier doing a double-take at that. A little good information management and I doubt Sheryl would be troubled by this.

Plus she had her concert with tons of fans =)

Also, now that NUNS is more involved with the new colony ( they'd have to be, unless I am mistaken a colony ship founding a new colony is a big thing ), they'd probably try to put a stop to things like "executions without trials". That Sheryl still is a big star in the whole known galaxy is another factor.

LoveMeKags

2011-11-11, 04:52

One thing that is a bit unfair, is that Ranka has gotten the far better songs in movie two. Oh, well, she had to win at something. ^^

I think in an interview, Nakajima said that this time around, they were going to show Ranka in the spotlight, if that's any help there.

IMHO, neither one had any good new songs this time around. But I'm still on the fence about the whole soundtrack...

I was too at first. I was slightly depressed about the Nyan Final Attack in the film. The piece where you get the build up, in my head, I had been picturing a fight scene or even a bunch of blowing up but instead it's all "S.M.S. received our S.O.S. signal, they're here!" and show them arriving only, no fighting at all. So I was really depressed by how well the track flowed with battle scenes but yet they failed to show any real good ones at that point of the track. Sad...

Oh, I definitely liked Rankas concert song and the song from the ending of the movie very much ( I don't mean the duet with Sheryl, but the other one... although the duet with Sheryl was fine, too ).

Ranka's concert: Niji-Iro Kuma Kuma
Ranka's ending song: Hoshi Kira

But yeah...while "Sayonara no Tsubasa" is (to me, at least) as fraught with tension and drama as "Diamond Crevasse," I find myself humming "Nijiiro Kuma Kuma" at the oddest times...it's so damn CATCHY!

I like Sayonara no Tsubasa, but it's no Northern Cross or Lion to me.:D

Valkyria...da-da-da-DUH-DUH-DUH!! Valkyria...da-DA-da...DUH!-DUH!-DENH!!

Okay, this might be just a little off-topic, but you mentioning this had me remembering a line in the actually soundtrack piece itself that apparently hasn't been noticed.

When Sheryl and Ranka sing the last "valkyria" piece, before "sayonara no tsubasa" comes, they actually say (vocalizing) "tobe". So the line is "valkyria, valkyrie tobe - sayonara no tsubasa" if you include the vocalizing. I thought that was slightly funny to hear that piece and realize it wasn't noticed in the final put out of the lyrics (on the official soundtrack piece).

I usually prefer Sheryl's songs, but Hoshi Kira and Sou Da Yo (from the first movie ending) are simply beautiful.

I prefer Songbird over a lot of the other songs Ranka has done. But then again, I also prefer Yousei over Diamond Crevasse lately. Maybe it's spur of the moment love...

karice67

2011-11-11, 08:22

And starting the final 'info dump' I'll probably be doing, mostly from the

Director Interview – Kawamori Shouji, pp.120-123 of the “Official Complete Book”

This time, I’ll split it into parts so that you can all digest and actually comment on it.
For simplicity’s sake, after the first reference, I am calling the films “False Diva” and “Wings”.
As before, the parts where I’ve put in a fair amount of interpretation are marked in [square brackets]. If anyone spots any mistakes etc, please let me know!

[To be honest, this ending is the one closest to the idea that I originally came up with early on.]

What was the moment when you thought that “The Wings of Farewell” was complete?

When we were doing the sound editing. Normally, the sound editing for a film is carried out in portions, but after doing a rough version, we played through the entire film. The sound balance hadn’t yet been fine-tuned, but with that viewing, I just thought ‘it’s done’. After we’d finished fine-tuning the sound, the next time we saw it was at the preview screening. I was a lot more nervous that day than for “The False Diva”. And after the screening, for the first time ever, I started seeing dreams of the editing and sound editing processes. It seems like Macross F might still not have ended for me.

This time, we’ve come to the end of the story. Did you decide on that ending quickly?

We really wrestled with it, thinking up many patterns. More than anything, I think it’d have been interesting, from an observer’s point of view, to have witnessed the gatherings of all the bigwigs talking about what to do with the (love) triangle, the ending and so on (laughs). To be honest, this ending is the one closest to the idea that I originally came up with early on*. But even then, I had trouble deciding what the dialogue should be even until the day of the recording itself. Towards the end of the recording session, I finalized the dialogue and had Nakamura (Yuuichi), Endo (Aya) and Nakajima (Megumi) record it. Thus, until the day of the preview, the ending of the film was known just to the three of them.

* This could mean ‘early on’ in thinking about the films…or ‘early on’ in the development of Macross F altogether. I’m personally more inclined to think it was the latter… ——karice

Weren’t the voice actors thrown off course by that decision?

For me, I felt that knowing the ending would mean that how they act out the ending would change. I thought that it might be better if they were a little off balance whilst they were acting it out.

At first glance, it seemed like you incorporated something of the atmosphere of the concert from the start into the scene.

That’s right. After we finished recording the final scene, we went back and rerecorded the lines in the introduction of the film. As a result, the final lines of dialogue that were recorded were the opening lines to “Wings”.

And my own comments:

If you think this is a weird place to pause, you're right. I'm sure you can guess what the next question will be about...
I am so incredibly glad I saw “Wings” in Feb, before this book was released. I’d have HATED reading about the opening lines before seeing the film, because it left me wondering what in the world they changed when they rerecorded them!
I actually agree with Nakamura (from this interview (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=3848527#post3848527)) – he at least should have known for sure about Alto's feelings for Ranka’s confession scene. Although, it seems that the direction they got in that scene definitely had the outcome in mind.
And finally, aren’t you glad now that you didn’t get Kawamori’s original idea for the ending of the TV series? :heh:

magnuskn

2011-11-11, 08:40

And my own comments:

If you think this is a weird place to pause, you're right. I'm sure you can guess what the next question will be about...
And finally, aren’t you glad now that you didn’t get Kawamori’s original idea for the ending of the TV series? :heh:

I'm not sure what you mean with "a weird place to pause". Hence I can't answer the following question about "what will be the next question".

And since Kawamori didn't make it clear what his original idea was ( only that it was "close" ), it's difficult to say.

Thanks for the translations!

Thess

2011-11-11, 13:37

And finally, aren’t you glad now that you didn’t get Kawamori’s original idea for the ending of the TV series? :heh:

Actually, I figured this out after Kawamori 'joked' around Alto's fate in the commentary (probably the original idea was for him to be KIA, not MIA?). Now we know why Yoshino changed it, since he's more fanservice-like and happy go lucky in his ideas. ;)

MichiNekoChan

2011-11-11, 15:37

You're welcome.

Though...er, I should have checked that confession scene. I've edited it again and added a line so that the timing hopefully works a bit better...:heh:

It's now an "I lov-" line, and it's working fine on my computer...

Off to learn how to properly remux then. I'm still getting funky lettering.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/Michi_Neko/Rawr.jpg

This time, we’ve come to the end of the story. Did you decide on that ending quickly?

We really wrestled with it, thinking up many patterns. More than anything, I think it’d have been interesting, from an observer’s point of view, to have witnessed the gatherings of all the bigwigs talking about what to do with the (love) triangle, the ending and so on (laughs). To be honest, this ending is the one closest to the idea that I originally came up with early on*. But even then, I had trouble deciding what the dialogue should be even until the day of the recording itself. Towards the end of the recording session, I finalized the dialogue and had Nakamura (Yuuichi), Endo (Aya) and Nakajima (Megumi) record it. Thus, until the day of the preview, the ending of the film was known just to the three of them.

* This could mean ‘early on’ in thinking about the films…or ‘early on’ in the development of Macross F altogether. I’m personally more inclined to think it was the latter… ——karice

I really hope its the latter as well. :) That would definitely put to rest that Sheryl winning was only Yoshinos idea (One can dream, right?)

Thess

2011-11-11, 16:19

I really hope its the latter as well. :) That would definitely put to rest that Sheryl winning was only Yoshinos idea (One can dream, right?)

Shouldn't be obvious it wasn't? Kawamori wrote the dialogue and the script this time, not Yoshino.

That's why it's a bittersweet ending. :p

supernaps

2011-11-11, 17:42

I really hope its the latter as well. :) That would definitely put to rest that Sheryl winning was only Yoshinos idea (One can dream, right?)

If only.

Thanks for the translations, the interview was rather interesting.

FlavoryFantasy

2011-11-11, 18:04

Finally had some time to see this movie, it was well worth the wait. I enjoyed Macross Frontier so I a bit sad this is the end, but oh well it ended well enough for me. (though I was hoping someone else would die, like Luca :heh:) My favorite scene out of the movie...it probably was when the Macross Quarter entered the Vajra homeworld, and riding dem waves, I didn't expect that at all so it was awesome. :love: Ranka's concert with Niji-Iro Kuma Kuma was adorable too :heh:

Guess it's time for me to catch up on some of the other Macross series.
Also thank you for the translated interviews Karice!! They were a interesting read! :)

karice67

2011-11-11, 18:13

Off to learn how to properly remux then. I'm still getting funky lettering.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/Michi_Neko/Rawr.jpgSorry, I really don't know how that's happening...:confused: but might I suggest Mkvtoolnix? It's pretty straightforward to use. ;)

=======

Actually, I figured this out after Kawamori 'joked' around Alto's fate in the commentary (probably the original idea was for him to be KIA, not MIA?). Now we know why Yoshino changed it, since he's more fanservice-like and happy go lucky in his ideas. ;)My own take on this comment is also built on some other comments by various members of the cast (and staff?) about Alto and also about Michel, about how they're guys who wouldn't put anything into such direct words as "I love you" unless something drastic happens.

So yeah, I think that Kawamori's original ending had a clear resolution to the triangle, but on the flip side, Alto probably disappeared/died.

I really hope its the latter as well. :) That would definitely put to rest that Sheryl winning was only Yoshinos idea (One can dream, right?)Shouldn't be obvious it wasn't? Kawamori wrote the dialogue and the script this time, not Yoshino.Yoshino doesn't actually help his own cause at all - he's remarkably cagey about what he thinks about the triangle. (This being in all the interviews he did after the series ended.) The whole staff and cast are, really :rolleyes:

And in his "Official Complete Book" interview, Yoshino actually does reveal that a lot of his ideas were approved for the series. As a result, he was happy to let Kawamori do what he wanted for the films. They are both credited for the screenplay: but apparently, Yoshino wrote the scenario, after which Kawamori changed quite a few things, even removing the death of at least one character (which one is unspecified).

But I still stand by what I've discussed with a few people now - the role reversals in the films - all the 'what ifs' - CLEARLY show how the triangle ended in the series. :) So even if you don't subscribe to Kawamori's postmodernist approach to Macross, you can easily say that the resolution is the same across all the 'different continuities'.

BetoJR

2011-11-11, 20:21

But I still stand by what I've discussed with a few people now - the role reversals in the films - all the 'what ifs' - CLEARLY show how the triangle ended in the series. :) So even if you don't subscribe to Kawamori's postmodernist approach to Macross, you can easily say that the resolution is the same across all the 'different continuities'.
You just made Magnus a really happy guy, right there. :D

magnuskn

2011-11-12, 04:29

You just made Magnus a really happy guy, right there. :D

Well, as I said a few days ago, I already was 110% sure about the ending. But, yeah, thanks anyway. ;)

LoveMeKags

2011-11-12, 06:24

Off to learn how to properly remux then. I'm still getting funky lettering.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/Michi_Neko/Rawr.jpg

My thought is that you don't have the right font installed for the subtitles. Usually "--" is a long bar in Microsoft Word, so perhaps that's where it gets messed up.

But I still stand by what I've discussed with a few people now - the role reversals in the films - all the 'what ifs' - CLEARLY show how the triangle ended in the series. :) So even if you don't subscribe to Kawamori's postmodernist approach to Macross, you can easily say that the resolution is the same across all the 'different continuities'.

There's not really a difference in the "role reversal" department. Sheryl is still deathly ill (something us AruRan fans have often discussed the "what if she wasn't" piece) and Ranka is still rising to fame. The only role reversal I see is that Ranka is out to save Sheryl instead of the latter where Sheryl was out to save Ranka.

They still don't put out a "what if" to if Sheryl hadn't been dying. So we're still left to wonder if she wasn't in that situation, would Alto have chosen her still or the latter "would she have left Frontier sooner?"

BetoJR

2011-11-12, 06:25

Well, as I said a few days ago, I already was 110% sure about the ending. But, yeah, thanks anyway. ;)
But I meant it in the sense that she actually agreed with you. Don't kill the romance, man...

karice67

2011-11-12, 06:50

BetoJR

2011-11-12, 07:06

And pardon me, but I'll leave the rest of you to deal with any replies to that. *goes off to bed*
You're pretty mean, aren't you?

Swampstorm

2011-11-12, 07:18

There's not really a difference in the "role reversal" department. Sheryl is still deathly ill (something us AruRan fans have often discussed the "what if she wasn't" piece) and Ranka is still rising to fame. The only role reversal I see is that Ranka is out to save Sheryl instead of the latter where Sheryl was out to save Ranka.

They still don't put out a "what if" to if Sheryl hadn't been dying. So we're still left to wonder if she wasn't in that situation, would Alto have chosen her still or the latter "would she have left Frontier sooner?"There are infinitely many unexplored "what ifs" out there. What if Sheryl never meets Alto? What if the two meet in a scenario where Sheryl is married to Brera with three children? What if Sheryl becomes one of the villains and has a tendency to be cruel to small animals? What if she is written out of the plot entirely? (These are all excellent fanfic possibilities, by the way, and some of them might not have been done... yet.)

Circumstance may create the opportunity for two people to get to know each other, but it isn't a force of attraction in and of itself. I suppose the point here is not that Sheryl and Alto are necessarily the absolute fated right answer under every possible circumstance, but rather that they just happen to click together when placed in close enough proximity to each other. That's magnetism for you.

Moosey

2011-11-12, 07:22

Many thanks for your subs Karice. They work beautifully with the raw for me. Much appreciated.

LoveMeKags

2011-11-12, 08:18

@LMK

The scene at the end really isn't that important.

It's the scene where Ranka confesses that's important.

Remembering that Alto and Ranka BOTH thought that Sheryl was dead at that point, what do you think Alto would have said had Ranka not stopped him? Or more pertinently, what did it LOOK like he was going to say, given his expression and the tone of his voice?

Um, where did I bring up the confession scene in my above remark? :eyebrow:

I was talking about the "role reversal" piece you mentioned in regards to where the characters were portrayed, not in the triangle sense but more in the physical sense: Ranka being the one to rescue Sheryl (from prison) instead of Sheryl being the one to rescue Ranka (from Galaxy). Sheryl nearly dying (in the passageway) as apposed to Michael dying in a similar fashion (in Ep.20). Brera taking out Galaxy (in the Vajra Queen) as apposed to Alto taking out Grace (in the Vajra Queen Ep.25).
There were a lot of role reversals that didn't apply to the love triangle there.

And, regardless of what you think, I see the confession scene as a similar one to Ep.21; because Alto is not given a chance to reply. Whether you want to see it as a similar scene to Ep.24, that's up to you. In both universes, Alto is given no chance to reply and in one, he starts to, but his expression is more "why now?" in both universes.

When I refer to Sheryl's deathly illness, I'm talking about the V-type virus in both universes. It seemed like (to me and many others) that Sheryl had to be "deathly ill" in order for her to remain on Frontier (in the later episodes) and get Alto's drastic attention (especially around Ep.15 to 24). Had she been healthy, perhaps I (especially) would've seen the romance as a benefit to them, but the fact that Sheryl is always deathly ill in each scenario (no matter who writes it) makes my theory of Alto chasing his mother a reality.
"My mother had a weak body" <--> "Sheryl is dying from the V-type virus"
I just don't see a good romance blossoming when you're chasing a female who ultimately (from his point of view) has quite a few health problems (and this is before he knows the truth of her V-type virus in both universes). He is actually chasing his mother without knowing it.

Had there been a role reversal for the V-type infection (Ranka), I'm almost sure his attraction to Ranka would've tripled. Like I said, Alto is subconsciously chasing after his mother (whether it be the sky or a dying female) and it cripples him, really.

I feel kinda sorry for him in both universes because he's trying to find his mother in someone else but looks in all the wrong places (no offense to Sheryl, but she is dying, a bad memory of his mother, truly).:(

There are infinitely many unexplored "what ifs" out there. What if Sheryl never meets Alto? What if the two meet in a scenario where Sheryl is married to Brera with three children? What if Sheryl becomes one of the villains and has a tendency to be cruel to small animals? What if she is written out of the plot entirely? (These are all excellent fanfic possibilities, by the way, and some of them might not have been done... yet.)

Circumstance may create the opportunity for two people to get to know each other, but it isn't a force of attraction in and of itself. I suppose the point here is not that Sheryl and Alto are necessarily the absolute fated right answer under every possible circumstance, but rather that they just happen to click together when placed in close enough proximity to each other. That's magnetism for you.

I think you actually missed the basis of my point as the only role reversal that never changed (explained above).

Actually, the last one, "what if she was written out of the plot entirely" has been one of the questions I believe Endo once asked Kawamori, and I don't believe he could respond to that. I think his desire was for Sheryl to be a strong character but not exactly get together with Alto. His intentions seemed to be more on "she is fine as an independent character so why tie her to Alto?" And if you look back, 90% of the scenes they have together (or apart), Sheryl is independent, meaning her attachment to Alto is a failure to her character (or what Kawamori had her out to be). I think that Kawamori would rather Sheryl be herself (alone) and live for her songs rather than be tied to a lover (even if it is Alto); that's another reason why I really see his AruRan ending, since he wants Sheryl to be just herself.

As for your last reply, Alto and Sheryl really had no chemistry when they met, or did you miss the beginning episodes. He had to be forced to become her bodyguard (by her request) for him to get closer to her and know her because he honestly disliked her from day one. That doesn't strike me as clicking together.

BetoJR

2011-11-12, 08:28

You forget they don't really mention his mother in the movies, so your theory of the mommy chasing doesn't hold water, there...

supernaps

2011-11-12, 08:58

As for your last reply, Alto and Sheryl really had no chemistry when they met, or did you miss the beginning episodes. He had to be forced to become her bodyguard (by her request) for him to get closer to her and know her because he honestly disliked her from day one. That doesn't strike me as clicking together.

That's because Sheryl was being an annoying pms bitch and nitpicking on everything and Alto ready to jump on her throat every chance given and the circumstances were not exactly chilling around them.
In the Star Date when they got to relax and be comfortable, they both started developing a fancy towards each other.

Also the mama-theory in the movies is nowhere to be valid, simply for the sole reason the above poster mentioned.

LoveMeKags

2011-11-12, 09:24

You forget they don't really mention his mother in the movies, so your theory of the mommy chasing doesn't hold water, there...

Also the mama-theory in the movies is nowhere to be valid, simply for the sole reason the above poster mentioned.

In movie 1, it was implied by Alto when he was speaking to Ranka about his acting (for he started to say more when he abruptly stopped). And later, in movie 2, when Sheryl questions his love of the sky, he grows upset and decides to change the topic back to her. So it was implied that the same storyline for his family still existed.

As I understand it, Alto's background with his family did not change, nor did Ranka. It was a slight change for Sheryl, and that was the fact she lived on Galia 4 with Ranka for a while (which was implied by herself when speaking about her grandmother's works).

So basically, his mother still died the same way and it still cripples him.

That's because Sheryl was being an annoying pms bitch and nitpicking on everything and Alto ready to jump on her throat every chance given and the circumstances were not exactly chilling around them.
In the Star Date when they got to relax and be comfortable, they both started developing a fancy towards each other.

Yet, even after said "date," he still treated her like Michael. His actions towards her never truly changed until Ranka left, and they still held in at times. And since those are his actions towards a boy (Michael) and his friends (Luca and Nanase), I don't see where romantic atmosphere falls into that category when that's his normal actions.

The fact I'm driving at is that up until the later episodes (in the early twenties) they were not clicking at all when it came to holding a decent conversation or learning about each other. Alto learned more about Sheryl that she did him. Plus, the fact is, that two people who argue that much would not work. It usually turns to violence if the argument gets deep enough. Alto just doesn't click with Sheryl as much as he did Ranka (which clicked right off the bat). It strikes me that Alto was not interested in Sheryl as he was Ranka at the beginning of the series up until the late twenties (and even then, he showed little interest in dropping his guard around Sheryl even knowing she was dying).

supernaps

2011-11-12, 09:46

So basically, his mother still died the same way and it still cripples him.
Yet, even after said "date," he still treated her like Michael. His actions towards her never truly changed until Ranka left, and they still held in at times. And since those are his actions towards a boy (Michael) and his friends (Luca and Nanase), I don't see where romantic atmosphere falls into that category when that's his normal actions.

Um, he treated Sheryl like Michael? Aha huum, well I don't recall Alto staring at Michael's boobs nor getting flushed red after Michael kissed him.
If one thing, I'd say he treated Ranka like Luca.

The fact I'm driving at is that up until the later episodes (in the early twenties) they were not clicking at all when it came to holding a decent conversation or learning about each other. Alto learned more about Sheryl that she did him. Plus, the fact is, that two people who argue that much would not work. It usually turns to violence if the argument gets deep enough. Alto just doesn't click with Sheryl as much as he did Ranka (which clicked right off the bat). It strikes me that Alto was not interested in Sheryl as he was Ranka at the beginning of the series up until the late twenties (and even then, he showed little interest in dropping his guard around Sheryl even knowing she was dying).

Or alternatively, sex. Yeah.

I'm not sure how Alto clicks better with Ranka, when he was most worried not hurting her feelings when being around her because she's fragile; while with Sheryl, he was mostly himself arguing and bickering and then being all fluffy-ish, like a late teens-couple.

BetoJR

2011-11-12, 10:29

In movie 1, it was implied by Alto when he was speaking to Ranka about his acting (for he started to say more when he abruptly stopped). And later, in movie 2, when Sheryl questions his love of the sky, he grows upset and decides to change the topic back to her. So it was implied that the same storyline for his family still existed.
Implication is not fact, but interpretation. You'll forgive us for not coming to the same conclusion as you, right?

And, as a matter of fact, Sheryl was the only one to mention the sky to him and get some sort of response - in their flashback.
So... More interpretation versus actually shown scenes.

magnuskn

2011-11-12, 10:30

But I meant it in the sense that she actually agreed with you. Don't kill the romance, man...

Oh, karice and I had a long talk a few days ago, everything is well. :)

BetoJR

2011-11-12, 10:31

Oh, karice and I had a long talk a few days ago, everything is well. :)
So, are we going to get invited to the wedding or what?

magnuskn

2011-11-12, 10:33

So, are we going to get invited to the wedding or what?

Go ship Tak and LMK, you. :D

LoveMeKags

2011-11-12, 10:34

Um, he treated Sheryl like Michael? Aha huum, well I don't recall Alto staring at Michael's boobs nor getting flushed red after Michael kissed him.
If one thing, I'd say he treated Ranka like Luca.

Attitude.

Michael and Sheryl got the same treatment from Alto when it came to their smart remarks and especially their attitudes towards him.

Plus, Alto never stared at Sheryl's boobs. And he didn't stare at Sheryl's boobs in Ep.11 either. Look at the pan again, he's looking up, not down.

He treated Ranka differently than the others, I noticed. He actually took the time to encourage Ranka separate from them (Ep.3 as an example) and spoke his mind to her often (a good Movie 1 example). I don't think you could truly compare his actions towards Ranka to any of the other characters in the show because there were significant differences.

Or alternatively, sex. Yeah.

Nowadays, that doesn't work anymore...

I'm not sure how Alto clicks better with Ranka, when he was most worried not hurting her feelings when being around her because she's fragile; while with Sheryl, he was mostly himself arguing and bickering and then being all fluffy-ish, like a late teens-couple.

Trust me, Alto and Sheryl never became so-called "fluffy-ish" with one another enough for you to see a growth in romance between them. By the time the fluff came around, it was already in my mind that he was pitying her because that didn't truly show till Ep.22 after he learned of her illness.

Alto relied on Ranka early in the series for purpose (as stated in Ep.23 with the "I met her, joined the S.M.S. to protect her" piece). Then he allowed Ranka to rely on him for courage. They had quite a few moments of this.

Also take into account that the series and movies are different.
Series - Alto and Ranka had just met, know nothing of each other
Movies - Alto and Ranka have been friends for possibly years, know backgrounds
In the series, Ranka knew nothing of his background. And since they were opposites (he was raised in a noble family, she was considered a "nobody"), he could easily connect with her. She had no knowledge of him and therefore they could connect automatically by him just introducing himself and talking about his current status rather than "yeah, I did that movie three years ago, thanks for noticing." But in Ep.1, this didn't show very well because he automatically assumed she was a fan. This was redeemed by later episodes and him showing very good interest in getting to know more about her (like Ep.3 with Ozma and the later discussion). Because he made so many dumb assumptions in the series, of course he was worried about harming her feelings because he doesn't know what they are.
In the movies, Ranka knew of his background. They were still opposites but he still seemed to connect with her on the same level. But he also still decided to push past the barriers, something he failed to ever do with Sheryl and ask Ozma about Ranka's past. But, once again, he kept making dumb assumptions (or jumping to conclusions) about her feelings, and therefore denying Sheryl's "she likes you" was an obvious reply just like Ep.1's "they say airheads stick out" remark. This is later redeemed by him taking Ranka out on a "date."
In both universes, it is not hard to see that Alto goes to great lengths just to learn more about Ranka whilst if Sheryl doesn't feel like sharing her history with him, that's fine. That's not a mutual understanding but rather a "I don't give a crap about it." So his worrying over Ranka's past is actually a plus because he's concerned over a person he possibly wishes to grow closer to (like a girlfriend/lover/wife).

Implication is not fact, but interpretation. You'll forgive us for not coming to the same conclusion as you, right?

And, as a matter of fact, Sheryl was the only one to mention the sky to him and get some sort of response - in their flashback.
So... More interpretation versus actually shown scenes.

And did Kawamori state that his history was changed like he did with Sheryl's and Ranka's? No. So therefore, Alto's past with his mother is the same, so she lived and died the same.

BetoJR

2011-11-12, 10:40

And did Kawamori state that his history was changed like he did with Sheryl's and Ranka's? No. So therefore, Alto's past with his mother is the same, so she lived and died the same.
Really? Did you read the series' bible or something, so you can outright state something like that? Would someone who has never seen the series be able to interpret his past like that? No? Then we're through with this argument, right here.

supernaps

2011-11-12, 10:56

Attitude.

Michael and Sheryl got the same treatment from Alto when it came to their smart remarks and especially their attitudes towards him.

Plus, Alto never stared at Sheryl's boobs. And he didn't stare at Sheryl's boobs in Ep.11 either. Look at the pan again, he's looking up, not down.

He treated Ranka differently than the others, I noticed. He actually took the time to encourage Ranka separate from them (Ep.3 as an example) and spoke his mind to her often (a good Movie 1 example). I don't think you could truly compare his actions towards Ranka to any of the other characters in the show because there were significant differences.

Sheryl and Michael often teased Alto who responded in a similar way of imma-angry-face, but that does not equal 'treated them the same.'
They are all different people, therefore they get different treatment.

Alto knew that Ranka is a young, innocent and sensitive girl so he was being there for her, encouraging her and all this jazz shit.
With Sheryl, at first she comes across as a strong individual relying on her musical career and stuff, and later when she breaks down he is also there, reaching out on her and helping her.
Point. He was there for both of them, but the difference lies in the fact, that he got intimate with one. That's the difference between friendship and romance.

Tak

2011-11-12, 12:00

Ranka would have been more lovable if her characterization did not result in such bad sport with an intense case of oral diarrhea.

Plus, Alto never stared at Sheryl's boobs. And he didn't stare at Sheryl's boobs in Ep.11 either. Look at the pan again, he's looking up, not down.

He was trying very hard to resist. I doubt its appropriate to be staring at someone's boobies even if they are very erm... visually enticing...

Actually, don't try to put yourself in our shoes... you fail every time.

He treated Ranka differently than the others, I noticed. He actually took the time to encourage Ranka separate from them (Ep.3 as an example) and spoke his mind to her often (a good Movie 1 example). I don't think you could truly compare his actions towards Ranka to any of the other characters in the show because there were significant differences.

Yeah, he treated Ranka as an individual with a cordial friendship. That is not romance make, try again.

Nowadays, that doesn't work anymore...

Really, what credentials do you possess to lecture us on what works these days and what doesn't?

Trust me, Alto and Sheryl never became so-called "fluffy-ish" with one another enough for you to see a growth in romance between them. By the time the fluff came around, it was already in my mind that he was pitying her because that didn't truly show till Ep.22 after he learned of her illness.

Sure, because you wrote the script and dictated the episode... right.

Trusting you is to lower one's standards faster than relying on drugs & alcohol. I think I will pass.

Alto relied on Ranka early in the series for purpose (as stated in Ep.23 with the "I met her, joined the S.M.S. to protect her" piece). Then he allowed Ranka to rely on him for courage. They had quite a few moments of this.

Alto relied on Ranka so he could fly in the SMS. Alto was using Ranka unconsciously and Ranka translated that to love falsely, and this being implied by the word-of-god in an old interview. Yeah, you should trust me on that one. Courage my ass, Sheryl gave her all the courage Ranka ever needed, Alto was a complete, and utter douche-bag in that department when it comes to Ranka. He did not even have an inkling of an emotion approaching love, not even this... erm... pity that you love to talk about so much.

This is later redeemed by him taking Ranka out on a "date."In both universes, it is not hard to see that Alto goes to great lengths just to learn more about Ranka

Hi, there was no date. There was... a tag-along.

And what did Alto learn in both universes about little queen? Not very much. That is despite Ranka spewing forth her story over and over and over again every single time she had a conversation with Alto. Alto actually learned more about Ranka from the NUNS than he ever did from her.

whilst if Sheryl doesn't feel like sharing her history with him, that's fine. That's not a mutual understanding but rather a "I don't give a crap about it."

Right, because I am going to put a gun at Sheryl so that she would share her story with me.

So his worrying over Ranka's past is actually a plus because he's concerned over a person he possibly wishes to grow closer to (like a girlfriend/lover/wife).

Or, in your fantasies maybe. Good luck writing that fan-fiction, when will it be published?

- Tak

Lancel

2011-11-12, 12:31

On the subject of Sheryl and Alto clicking, my interpretation of it is that they do in their own way. It's true they argue and sometimes bicker, but they have tender moments too. Early on they really had to get used to one another, and they change throughout, partially as a result of those arguments I think. Their arguments prompt them to think deep down and realize what they want and what they want to be. Just as Alto was right to call Sheryl out on not wanting to sing, it ultimately helped her to do better. Sure, sometimes they infuriate each other, but the source of it seemed less to do with "I don't want you to be that way" and more like suggesting "YOU don't even want you to be that way." They knew each other's character and they knew when the other was being out of character.

And together they had some really tender moments, too. They didn't always argue, and when they did it was more often because they cared, though obviously they didn't click right off the bat. With Ranka though, I dunno, she's easy to click with, she's just adorable and nice. Sheryl might take some getting used to because she's very... forward.

Tak

2011-11-12, 12:34

^ or the simple fact that all couples argue. Then they reconcile. It happens to every couple in the world, that is simply part of a relationship.

- Tak

raile

2011-11-12, 12:42

BetoJR

2011-11-12, 12:46

That's in the chibi-Alto and Sheryl flashback, Lord raileon.

Oh, and you guys are totally right: make-up sex rules. Scientific fact.

raile

2011-11-12, 12:48

^ Wasn't that Prologue F? F Refrain is the one in the movie's soundtrack.

Can't argue with Science. :D

supernaps

2011-11-12, 12:48

^Heck, Alto and Sheryl's arguments are waay milder compared to a few big lover spats I've seen. :heh: Besides, a healthy fight is good for any relationship. :p Just ask Beto. :D

I still don't know why we have to go over the (resolved) triangle, the dead horse is...dead.

Oh btw, anyone catch when (or if) F Refrain plays in the movie? I might have missed it but I can't really seem to catch it (if it was played..).
I'd rather prefer the version, of unicorn being alive and flying. And the small, tiny horse..well being left behind. Let's not use the word dead rai, it's kind of mean, isn't it? |D

As far as I can recall, it wasn't. Hum, but I've got to check the movie again.

BetoJR

2011-11-12, 12:55

^ Wasn't that Prologue F? F Refrain is the one in the movie's soundtrack.
Blame it on my scrambled sleep-deprived daddy's brains.

Can't argue with Science. :D
No, you can't. You can always try to replicate their findings, tho.
That's where the fun is...

Swampstorm

2011-11-12, 14:08

I think you actually missed the basis of my point as the only role reversal that never changed (explained above).I read your point. I just don't see the significance of it.

Actually, the last one, "what if she was written out of the plot entirely" has been one of the questions I believe Endo once asked Kawamori, and I don't believe he could respond to that. I think his desire was for Sheryl to be a strong character but not exactly get together with Alto. His intentions seemed to be more on "she is fine as an independent character so why tie her to Alto?" And if you look back, 90% of the scenes they have together (or apart), Sheryl is independent, meaning her attachment to Alto is a failure to her character (or what Kawamori had her out to be). I think that Kawamori would rather Sheryl be herself (alone) and live for her songs rather than be tied to a lover (even if it is Alto); that's another reason why I really see his AruRan ending, since he wants Sheryl to be just herself.I don't think that being independent is at odds with having romantic relationships. If you have two fiercely independent people, they intrinsically understand the value of having dreams and ambitions. If they respect each other and are willing to make compromises, they can push each other to become much more than they are individually, and to make those dreams into a reality. They're strong apart, yet even stronger together. In fact, I'd argue that this is the only sort of relationship worth having.

As for your last reply, Alto and Sheryl really had no chemistry when they met, or did you miss the beginning episodes. He had to be forced to become her bodyguard (by her request) for him to get closer to her and know her because he honestly disliked her from day one. That doesn't strike me as clicking together.What you call "chemistry" is an euphemism for sexual attraction. That's there from the outset, buried under a generous coating of reaction formation.

There's little else that you can glean out of the first few minutes of meeting someone, unless they have their curriculum vitae tattooed to their forehead. If you want to find out something more meaningful, you need to find the occasion to actually get to know the person better. "Chemistry" is simply one of many incentives to do so.

MichiNekoChan

2011-11-12, 14:51

Plus, the fact is, that two people who argue that much would not work.

haha yea its hilarious that she thinks that. Wow, wish she would of seen my boyfriend and I when we first met. We disliked each other greatly and argued tons. And now here I am with him and coming up on our 4th anniversary together :P

My personal belief if that you actually learn MORE if you argue with someone since the feelings come across that much stronger. It doesn't matter what its about, true feelings show when arguing. (albeit its not always pretty)

Thess

2011-11-12, 16:13

^
:eyebrow:
I had been hinting at it for a very long time, you know...it's nice to FINALLY be able to say why, instead of just telling people to 'wait until you can watch the film'. Although I was also right in suspecting that it wouldn't make a difference...:rolleyes:

=====

@LMK

The scene at the end really isn't that important.

It's the scene where Ranka confesses that's important.

Remembering that Alto and Ranka BOTH thought that Sheryl was dead at that point, what do you think Alto would have said had Ranka not stopped him? Or more pertinently, what did it LOOK like he was going to say, given his expression and the tone of his voice?

And pardon me, but I'll leave the rest of you to deal with any replies to that. *goes off to bed*

Someone should make a video-video comparison to his scene with Sheryl in the TV series. Alto was promising her to return, telling her that he figured out that: "a person mustn't fly alone" (hey, Edward Elric uses Alchemy to propose, Alto uses flying metaphors, very fitting). He sought her out and was passionately objecting about her rebuttals and dismissals. While with Ranka... you all saw the scene. He wasn't even bothering to say goodbye until she intercepted him and made him promise to return.

The soundtrack also helps for the setting.

One has passion, Alto flirts and agrees with Sheryl about her remark about a woman as great as she is. The other... it looks like a heartbreak. I really, really felt bad for Ranka.

And what did Alto learn in both universes about little queen? Not very much. That is despite Ranka spewing forth her story over and over and over again every single time she had a conversation with Alto. Alto actually learned more about Ranka from the NUNS than he ever did from her.

I... disagree with this in movieverse. Alto knows Ranka rather well (and actually for the longest time, trusted her more than he trusted Sheryl), but he's not romantically attracted to her. It is Sheryl who captured his heart and charmed him, but it doesn't mean he doesn't know Ranka. It's the opposite, it's to Sheryl (there) he had to struggle to trust. Also, he listens to what Ranka has to say and all. He trusts her advice.

She's his best friend.

BetoJR

2011-11-12, 16:18

That's the key, right there: I felt bad for Ranka, whereas I felt elated for Sheryl.
That's all there is to it...

LoveMeKags

2011-11-12, 16:39

Really? Did you read the series' bible or something, so you can outright state something like that? Would someone who has never seen the series be able to interpret his past like that? No? Then we're through with this argument, right here.

I was asking that question to you. Do you have any proof that Alto's history changed? No... no? Then drop that. If there is no proof his history was changed, then it remained the same as the series.

Besides, Kawamori did state that it was a rewrite of the series storyline, not their pasts; so we are left to realize their pasts are pretty much the same.

Sheryl and Michael often teased Alto who responded in a similar way of imma-angry-face, but that does not equal 'treated them the same.'
They are all different people, therefore they get different treatment.

No, Alto treated Sheryl the same way. Blushed and was flustered because she's a woman at times, but otherwise, he gave her the same irritated replies just like with Michael. He seriously treated her, in an argument, like she was one of the boys.

Alto knew that Ranka is a young, innocent and sensitive girl so he was being there for her, encouraging her and all this jazz shit.
With Sheryl, at first she comes across as a strong individual relying on her musical career and stuff, and later when she breaks down he is also there, reaching out on her and helping her.
Point. He was there for both of them, but the difference lies in the fact, that he got intimate with one. That's the difference between friendship and romance.

Except, when he met Sheryl, he didn't give a rat's ass about her or her career. He was there to do his job. Until he messed up his stunt and had to catch (and carry her) through the crowds; he didn't even acknowledge how good a singer she was.
With Ranka, he met her; they clicked right off the bat. Ranka may have talked him to death but her good first impression was inviting him into her life by saying "come by Nyan-Nyan sometime and I'll repay you" hence giving him a "come see me again" line. This was a welcome mat.

Sheryl's was not.

So it took him a long time to warm up to Sheryl.

And actually, until I read the light novel for myself, I don't believe Sheryl and Alto ever got intimate. I don't see any physical proof. A kiss, touching, maybe; but I doubt he'd be stupid enough to have sex with her and possibly get the virus himself. I don't think Alto is that stupid.

He was trying very hard to resist. I doubt its appropriate to be staring at someone's boobies even if they are very erm... visually enticing...

Actually, don't try to put yourself in our shoes... you fail every time.

Ah, where's the actual screen shot when I want it:http://i.imgur.com/JYVJH.jpg (http://imgur.com/JYVJH)
He ist staring at her face, not her boobs; and he don't even look happy she's there either.

Hi, there was no date. There was... a tag-along.
Her exact words: "I heard from Onii-chan that the S.M.S. is taking a vacation on Mayan island. I was hoping we could meet..."

And, a few clips later, Alto is waiting for her.

Ranka: Wait long?
Alto: Not really.

If you really look at Alto and Ranka's first words here, you already know that this is an implied date. Whether either party takes it that way is up to them. But their actions at the beginning here are boyfriend waiting on girlfriend, she arrives, apologizes for being late, and they head out.

Plus, to knock it out of the park, they spend the entire day doing things that couples normally do. I'm surmised to say that seeing Alto and Ranka eating snow cones was a big smile for me. It has a similar effect (though opposite in my case) of watching Alto and Sheryl with the hot dogs in movie 1.

And what did Alto learn in both universes about little queen? Not very much. That is despite Ranka spewing forth her story over and over and over again every single time she had a conversation with Alto. Alto actually learned more about Ranka from the NUNS than he ever did from her.

Take into account that Ranka didn't know much about herself to begin with. She knew somewhere that she had a connection with the Vajra, but she didn't know why or how. So of course he had to learn that from N.U.N.S. because she didn't know it herself.

What part of amnesia do you not understand there?

I don't think that being independent is at odds with having romantic relationships. If you have two fiercely independent people, they intrinsically understand the value of having dreams and ambitions. If they respect each other and are willing to make compromises, they can push each other to become much more than they are individually, and to make those dreams into a reality. They're strong apart, yet even stronger together. In fact, I'd argue that this is the only sort of relationship worth having.

I was meaning, in a certain case when I stated Sheryl was better as an individual that Kawamori originally gave her out this way. I think I remember at one point, Kawamori had been interviewed by Endo and joked about Sheryl being find as a stand-alone character, because she was strong enough to be by herself; unlike some of the other characters. So I was basically saying that whether Alto ended up with Sheryl or not, Kawamori's stand-alone choice was for Sheryl to be by herself (and I think that influenced his end of Sheryl ending up by herself - though Alto might return one day).

haha yea its hilarious that she thinks that. Wow, wish she would of seen my boyfriend and I when we first met. We disliked each other greatly and argued tons. And now here I am with him and coming up on our 4th anniversary together :P

My personal belief if that you actually learn MORE if you argue with someone since the feelings come across that much stronger. It doesn't matter what its about, true feelings show when arguing. (albeit its not always pretty)

The more you argue with someone, the more you're inclined to dig deeper wounds and cause problems in the future.

Now, take, for example, my father's parents. They married when they were young (grandmother = 18, grandfather = 23). My grandmother died when she turned 78, my grandfather's still kicking; they'd been married that long. But they had arguments and disagreements like no other, ones that even affected how their kids saw them, but that's the same type of love that Alto and Sheryl have (arguing over stupid things like dishes). But he eventually decided to treat her like trash because he felt she was doing so to him. And, in the end, he became conceited, forced all the responsibilities onto her, and she died because she couldn't take anymore of the pressure. Because of how they acted around their kids, my father refuses to see eye-to-eye with him, nor does a lot of the kids in his family.

Take into account that their arguments, in the beginning were like Alto and Sheryl's. Now this arguing they're doing now... it's only gonna grow. I'm sure you don't want to see them repeat my grandparents now, do you? If Alto is to be with Sheryl, they have to do some serious molding, otherwise, I can already tell there will be some issues when they hit financial problems (and everyone does sooner or later even the richest people).

Tak

2011-11-12, 16:50

If Ranka had an inkling of special attachment the way Alto considered Sheryl, he would have accepted Ranka's confession. The fact is that he did not, despite thinking Sheryl had died speaks volumes of his true feelings toward the poor girl. Thats all there is to it.

And actually, until I read the light novel for myself, I don't believe Sheryl and Alto ever got intimate. I don't see any physical proof. A kiss, touching, maybe; but I doubt he'd be stupid enough to have sex with her and possibly get the virus himself. I don't think Alto is that stupid.

Word of god said he did, dear.

She's his best friend.

Certainly. No argument about that, at least in the movie-verse. I hold reservations about it from the TV series, however.

- Tak

MichiNekoChan

2011-11-12, 17:11

Take into account that their arguments, in the beginning were like Alto and Sheryl's. Now this arguing they're doing now... it's only gonna grow. I'm sure you don't want to see them repeat my grandparents now, do you? If Alto is to be with Sheryl, they have to do some serious molding, otherwise, I can already tell there will be some issues when they hit financial problems (and everyone does sooner or later even the richest people).

I could drone on about how happy both of us are in our relationship and how we argue maybe once a year now (at most) but this isn't the Michi's Relationship Thread.

In any case I believe arguments aren't going to be a problem with Sheryl and Alto due to the infrequent of them and the fact they never argued about the same thing twice or more (which I've seen ruins things quickly). I believe they will mold and adapt rather quickly to another cuz that's what you do.

Darthtabby

2011-11-12, 17:24

supernaps

2011-11-12, 17:56

No, Alto treated Sheryl the same way. Blushed and was flustered because she's a woman at times, but otherwise, he gave her the same irritated replies just like with Michael. He seriously treated her, in an argument, like she was one of the boys.

Lawd.
They were teasing each other and bickering. Simple as that. You can't use this as a vsRankatreatment argument, because Ranka did not annoy Alto like Sheryl did.

And actually, until I read the light novel for myself, I don't believe Sheryl and Alto ever got intimate. I don't see any physical proof. A kiss, touching, maybe; but I doubt he'd be stupid enough to have sex with her and possibly get the virus himself. I don't think Alto is that stupid.

You do know that there was an 'indecent' version of that scene in #22 recorded, with moans and stuff? That's pretty much self-explanatory.

teelatsuki

2011-11-12, 18:00

Alto and Sheryl had plenty of chemistry. Just take a look at episode five of the TV series. Alto may have been dragged into that outting to start with, but Sheryl's enthusiasm proves infectious and pretty soon he's taking the initiative to show her Island Three. He didn't go there for Ranka. Her train was at a different station and there wasn't anything saying where it was going. He was generally quite happy to simply hang around while Sheryl did stuff on Island Three (the exception being when he was leading her somewhere and she kept getting distracted -in an area where it would have been easy to loose track of her).

They also seemed to be able to talk to each other quite naturally while conversing in Episodes Six and Nine. Granted they don't open up to each other entirely (Sheryl's childhood on Galaxy is a difficult subject) but they seem to open up to each other more than they do for just about anyone else. They seem to understand each other decently well and have a lot in common too.

Now things play out a bit differently in the movie, but they hit it off pretty well there as well. I'd go as far as to say that Alto is smitten with Sheryl by the end of the movie version of the outting that took them to Island Three.

Well to be fair, in the series this is a blink and you miss it, but Alto was searching for Ranka in the series because he did see her taking the train to island three.

That doesn't take away the fact that they did have tons of chemistry and LMK is just trying to apply her personal experience in here, even when her personal experience is in the minorities; everyone has pointed it out we enjoy the usual fight with our loved one and, we enjoy even more what follows it.

The same goes in most works of fiction because people know this to be true; a couple that never fights is going to explode sooner or later.

No, Alto treated Sheryl the same way. Blushed and was flustered because she's a woman at times, but otherwise, he gave her the same irritated replies just like with Michael. He seriously treated her, in an argument, like she was one of the boys.

I hope you noticed that Alto would be unable to treat her as one of the boys if he is aware that she is a woman, that statement is contradictory.

With Ranka, he met her; they clicked right off the bat. Ranka may have talked him to death but her good first impression was inviting him into her life by saying "come by Nyan-Nyan sometime and I'll repay you" hence giving him a "come see me again" line. This was a welcome mat.

Sheryl's was not.

So it took him a long time to warm up to Sheryl.

Which also means they got to know each other before deciding they liked each other, way better than finding bad things later.

If you really look at Alto and Ranka's first words here, you already know that this is an implied date. Whether either party takes it that way is up to them. But their actions at the beginning here are boyfriend waiting on girlfriend, she arrives, asks if he waited long, and they head out.

Let them have this one, after all is the farest that sinking ship got.

Take into account that Ranka didn't know much about herself to begin with. She knew somewhere that she had a connection with the Vajra, but she didn't know why or how. So of course he had to learn that from N.U.N.S. because she didn't know it herself.

What part of amnesia do you not understand there?

This always bothered me, Ranka was really young at that time so, why it seems like Ranka had no life between the incident with the Vajra and the start of the series/Movies? Unless amnesia makes her forget everyday of her life. :p

I was meaning, in a certain case when I stated Sheryl was better as an individual that Kawamori originally gave her out this way. I think I remember at one point, Kawamori had been interviewed by Endo and joked about Sheryl being find as a stand-alone character, because she was strong enough to be by herself; unlike some of the other characters. So I was basically saying that whether Alto ended up with Sheryl or not, Kawamori's stand-alone choice was for Sheryl to be by herself (and I think that influenced his end of Sheryl ending up by herself - though Alto might return one day).

Now, you seem to believe that being independent means not wanting a romantic relationship. Sheryl could have one, if she wants and she does, and so does Alto.

The more you argue with someone, the more you're inclined to dig deeper wounds and cause problems in the future.

Now, take, for example, my father's parents. They married when they were young (grandmother = 18, grandfather = 23). My grandmother died when she turned 78, my grandfather's still kicking; they'd been married that long. But they had arguments and disagreements like no other, ones that even affected how their kids saw them, but that's the same type of love that Alto and Sheryl have (arguing over stupid things like dishes). But he eventually decided to treat her like trash because he felt she was doing so to him. And, in the end, he became conceited, forced all the responsibilities onto her, and she died because she couldn't take anymore of the pressure. Because of how they acted around their kids, my father refuses to see eye-to-eye with him, nor does a lot of the kids in his family.

Take into account that their arguments, in the beginning were like Alto and Sheryl's. Now this arguing they're doing now... it's only gonna grow. I'm sure you don't want to see them repeat my grandparents now, do you? If Alto is to be with Sheryl, they have to do some serious molding, otherwise, I can already tell there will be some issues when they hit financial problems (and everyone does sooner or later even the richest people).

Now not all relationships go down this route and also you missed that Alto and Sheryl discussed way less as time passed.

Tak

2011-11-12, 18:17

The same goes in most works of fiction because people know this to be true; a couple that never fights is going to explode sooner or later.

There are times when I am convinced that small-wars are actually healthy for mankind...

- Tak

Yot-chan

2011-11-12, 18:23

Lawd.
You do know that there was an 'indecent' version of that scene in #22 recorded, with moans and stuff? That's pretty much self-explanatory.
I'm not trying to inadvertently help LMK, but you DO know that the "indecent version" was a joke, right?

Apparently, not only Nakamura and Endo, but all the other voice actors, and even the staff, were ALL moaning and sighing. So unless you think Alto and Sheryl were having a big ol' orgy, you can't use it as evidence for anything.

BetoJR

2011-11-12, 18:45

I was asking that question to you. Do you have any proof that Alto's history changed? No... no? Then drop that. If there is no proof his history was changed, then it remained the same as the series.
Like I said, your opinion is as good as mine. Because that's all this is. You don't have a quote from The Hory Froating Head or a snippet from the movies' bible stating outright that the character's motivation was the same; ergo that his past was the same. It's not like we were shown anything that didn't happen in the series in regards to Alto's past... Oh, wait. Yes, we were. Hello monkey-eared little lady! Now, what were we talking about again?

And you did not answer my last question. Therefore your argument is moot.
After all, the movies were not made only for those who had previously seen the series, now were they?

Besides, Kawamori did state that it was a rewrite of the series storyline, not their pasts; so we are left to realize their pasts are pretty much the same.
Right, because the characters' pasts are not a part of the movies' storyline. And it's not like even a single one of them had extensive changes to their background, right? So, please, drop it. You're only making this worse on yourself.

supernaps

2011-11-12, 18:57

I'm not trying to inadvertently help LMK, but you DO know that the "indecent version" was a joke, right?

Apparently, not only Nakamura and Endo, but all the other voice actors, and even the staff, were ALL moaning and sighing. So unless you think Alto and Sheryl were having a big ol' orgy, you can't use it as evidence for anything.

I was actually being ironic, using this as a proof that Alto/Sheryl did the deed because it's so obvious you don't even need a 'proof'.

Kind of using LMK's way to troll while not technically troll.

Yot-chan

2011-11-12, 19:05

I was actually being ironic, using this as a proof that Alto/Sheryl did the deed because it's so obvious you don't even need a 'proof'.

Kind of using LMK's way to troll while not technically troll.
Oops...sorry for blowing your cover, then...

Tak

2011-11-12, 19:12

Oops...sorry for blowing your cover, then...

Back in the car... grandpa Yot...

- Tak

LoveMeKags

2011-11-12, 19:50

This always bothered me, Ranka was really young at that time so, why it seems like Ranka had no life between the incident with the Vajra and the start of the series/Movies? Unless amnesia makes her forget everyday of her life. :p

Tak was referring to Ranka knowing about her connection to the plot. Like, for example, her singing making the Vajra appear and what truly happened to 117. She had post traumatic stress and suffered from dissociative amnesia soon after the end of the incident. I doubt Ranka was truly aware of the project Mao had started (and Ranshe and Grace worked on together). In the small flashback in Ep.23, Grace is shown arguing with Ranshe; up until that point, I doubt Ranka was truly ever aware that Grace was part of 117's research facility. So how could she actually tell anyone about her connection to the plot when she doesn't know it?

It honestly has nothing to do with "her life after the incident." It has to do with what happened "during the incident" or "before it." And Ranka doesn't remember those aspects and therefore is lost when people tell her about herself.

It's not her fault. She was just a kid and witnessing her family die before her eyes is probably the most horrifying thing one can go through. I give her a good thumps-up for forgetting the incident and actually living instead of deciding to die blaming herself (like she did in Ep.24).

Now, you seem to believe that being independent means not wanting a romantic relationship. Sheryl could have one, if she wants and she does, and so does Alto.

I was saying that the way Kawamori acknowledged Sheryl, it was as if he wanted her to be a stand-alone character whether or not he put her as the winner of the triangle; because he thought she was that strong, that she could stand on her own, and therefore did not need a relationship to quote "win the love triangle."

It's not like we were shown anything that didn't happen in the series in regards to Alto's past... Oh, wait. Yes, we were. Hello monkey-eared little lady! Now, what were we talking about again?

I think you forget the fact that in said flashback, Alto's mother was not shown. Nor was she shown in the flashback with his father. Said woman never made an appearance in any of Alto's flashbacks that were in his teen years (after eleven); so it is easy to say "yes" Alto's mother has passed away. Plus, Alto's attachment to her was very strong either way, so why not have a flashback of her unless it makes him suffer?

Right, because the characters' pasts are not a part of the movies' storyline. And it's not like even a single one of them had extensive changes to their background, right? So, please, drop it. You're only making this worse on yourself.

Actually, that's a misconception.

A character's background can be made apart from the storyline. The storyline only creates more change for the character over the period of time.

If a characters past was based on the storyline, then basically you'd be saying the "character never grew" or is still an infant. To give a character no background before the storyline is to make it an "android" or an "emotionless being." A character has to have a background before the storyline in order to flourish.

So therefore, Alto, Sheryl, and Ranka's background all came before the storyline.
Ranka's didn't change much except meeting Alto sooner and have possibly known him for a while. Sheryl's didn't change really except meeting Alto for that short period. Alto's didn't change at all with the exception of meeting Sheryl for that short time and meeting Ranka earlier and befriending her.
Their pasts (in speech and flashbacks) was not much different from the series. Which, Kawamori already said that you could watch episodes 1-15 and then jump into the second movie because the characters attitudes, pasts, and whatnot are the same, it's only the storyline (plot and ending) that is different.

Or had you not paid attention to how similar their characters were from the Ep.15 point?

supernaps

2011-11-12, 19:59

I was saying that the way Kawamori acknowledged Sheryl, it was as if he wanted her to be a stand-alone character whether or not he put her as the winner of the triangle; because he thought she was that strong, that she could stand on her own, and therefore did not need a relationship to quote "win the love triangle."

Actually in the second movie, Sheryl is not that strong (in the sense of your definition), having attached herself to Alto; she tells him to quit flying and fight, she spends time in her room mooning over memories and such.
Yes, she does pull herself together and stands in her own feet but emotional commitment causes need. Sheryl is not a robot, she has feelings that she chooses to act on to; if she is independent or not, that is irrelevant.

Eeer, not sure what you're arguing at here?

BetoJR

2011-11-12, 20:12

I give up.

teelatsuki

2011-11-12, 20:12

Tak was referring to Ranka knowing about her connection to the plot. Like, for example, her singing making the Vajra appear and what truly happened to 117. She had post traumatic stress and suffered from dissociative amnesia soon after the end of the incident. I doubt Ranka was truly aware of the project Mao had started (and Ranshe and Grace worked on together). In the small flashback in Ep.23, Grace is shown arguing with Ranshe; up until that point, I doubt Ranka was truly ever aware that Grace was part of 117's research facility. So how could she actually tell anyone about her connection to the plot when she doesn't know it?

Well I was just talking about her character in general.

I was saying that the way Kawamori acknowledged Sheryl, it was as if he wanted her to be a stand-alone character whether or not he put her as the winner of the triangle; because he thought she was that strong, that she could stand on her own, and therefore did not need a relationship to quote "win the love triangle."

I knew it! this is you still taking something and blowing it out of proportion, just because she is a great stand-alone character doesn't mean she should just stay that way as much as I want it this is not the Sheryl Nome show so she was put in situations that connect her with people, in a story relationships are important.

Yot-chan

2011-11-12, 20:14

I give up.
You've got more patience than I do...I barely even skim her posts these days.

supernaps

2011-11-12, 20:17

I give up.

Nooo, never give up. NEVER SURRENDER

MichiNekoChan

2011-11-12, 20:26

You've got more patience than I do...I barely even skim her posts these days.

I read for the lulz. I'm not sure why shes still bringing stuff up by this point. But by all means, become another Bleach_OD (whom I haven't seen review the 2nd movie yet) XD

Simply put Alto and Sheryl are destined to be together, no matter the universe. Movie!Ranka had best chance, but no luck.

She still had the best concerts though.

darkplataform

2011-11-12, 22:07

Wth! Didn't knew ignore list was too hard to use guys

Thanks for getting the thread closed btw.
Chao

CrowKenobi

2011-11-12, 22:13

Once again, the children have misbehaved and posts have disappeared, again... :eyebrow:

Would it be so hard to actually debate WITHOUT insulting each other?

Can it be possible?

magnuskn

2011-11-12, 22:17

I still kinda miss Dex-kun. ^^

Thess

2011-11-12, 23:18

Certainly. No argument about that, at least in the movie-verse. I hold reservations about it from the TV series, however.

No, of course. I was going with movie-verse exclusively. Michel's his best friend in the TV series while Nanase is Ranka's.

Darthtabby

2011-11-13, 01:10

teelatsuki

2011-11-13, 01:47

Darthtabby

2011-11-13, 01:54

While he's seen from the side and they don't show him following Ranka onto the train, Mikhail is clearly in view when Alto spots Ranka.

As for a reason to include that scene -can you think of any quicker way to show the audience how Ranka ended up on Island Three later on?

teelatsuki

2011-11-13, 02:06

I will check about that later, but if they were doing that it would have worked better if they put it as a passing coincidence; you know when a group of characters don't see that they just passed each other, that is why i still think that Alto went there because Ranka was going there.

karice67

2011-11-13, 02:43

Right. How in the world did we get to talking mostly about the TV SERIES?

And I wasn't even talking about 'setting', but rather about storytelling technique...:rolleyes:

You've got more patience than I do...I barely even skim her posts these days.Same here. Though even then I always come across something I'm itching to rebut. *sighs* I really shouldn't have bitten that time... Lesson learnt, once again.

Apologies for opening that can of worms, guys. m(_ _ )m

edit: the sad thing is...she actually made one general - VERY general - point I agree with.

====

Moving on, I'm putting aside the director's interview for the moment, since a certain controversial article (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=3565054#post3565054) has finally been verified. Although I won't be posting the scan, all the text within these 「brackets」 is noted to be from Kawamori himself (the Re: subheadings are mine). I've also corrected the mistakes I spotted in my original translation - if there are others, please let me know :heh:

Kawamori's comments in Animedia, May 2011 issue, in an article called "After tea, it's time to solve the mysteries..."

三角関係について
「TVシリーズのときから気になっていたことがありました。シェリルは劇場版前編でフロンティア船団に来て助けてもらっただけで、初対面のアルトをあそこまで好きになれるのだろうかと。もしふたりの過去に接点があれば、それはランカが思う以上にふたりの心の中に深く残っているのかもしれない。彼にとっては白黒つける話ではなく、今の気持ちを素直に口にしただけなんでしょう」

Re: the triangle
"There were a few issues from the TV series that I wanted to deal with. During the first movie, there are questions as to whether Sheryl can fall for Alto, whom she'd just met, to that extent just because he saved her [shortly after she arrived on Frontier]. If they'd met in the past, perhaps there's a bigger impression left in both their hearts (than what Ranka might think). As for Alto, rather than making it black and white, he's just putting his feelings at that point directly into words."

ランカの成長について
「ランカは自分の言葉で、きちんとアルトに気持ちを伝えることができました。だからいいのです。　ランカの心の中で決着はついたのです。むしろランカにとってシェリルは恋でも歌でも一番わかりあえる、　大切な存在になっているんじゃないかな。シェリルも同じようにランカを想っているでしょう。　ライバルを超えた絆でふたりは結ばれているんですよ」

Re: Ranka's 'growth'
"(This time) Ranka is able to tell Alto of her feelings, in words. That's why it's good [an improvement]. She was able to settle her feelings. You could also think that, to Ranka, Sheryl was someone who could completely understand her feelings about love and singing, i.e. she became someone really important to her. And Sheryl probably feels the same way about Ranka. They are connected by a bond that surpasses the bond between rivals. "

アルトの生死について
「アルトが消えてしまって、僕が思った以上にショックを受けた方が多かったようですね。すみません。最後までよく観ていただければわかりますが、確かにアルトはフォールドをしているんですよ。」

Re: What happened to Alto?
"The number of people who were shocked by Alto's disappearance was greater than I thought. I'm sorry. If you watch to the end carefully I think you'd figure it out, but he actually folded. "

シェリルの目覚めについて
「実はそれに似た話は実際に聞くんですよ（苦笑）アルトがフォールドしたあたりから胸がいっぱいになって、何か見ているのに見えていない。本編を2回、3回と繰り返し観ているうちにわかってきた、という方もいるそうです。エンドロールに登場するキャラクター達にもヒントがあるので、彼らの“その後”がきっと想像できると思いますよ！」

Re: Sheryl's awakening (NB: the setup for these comments is a conversation between a young lady and her butler after teatime. For this one, the butler comments along the lines of 'My lady, you really missed the hint at the end, didn't you? It may be because you just saw it once...' which then leads into Kawamori's comment)
"I've actually been hearing of similar experiences (wry smile). After seeing Alto disappear, [with the shock from that], they didn't see it even though they did actually see it. After seeing the film a second or third time, they realised. There's also a hint in the characters that appear in the credits, so I think you can imagine what happened to them afterwards."

30周年について
「今のところ『マクロスF』本筋の物語はこれで完結。ランカの魔法少女ライブのスピンオフとかなら、やってみたいですけどね。2012年に『マクロス』は30周年を迎えます。その頃にはまた別のアプローチができればと思っています。みなさんとまたお会いできますよう！」

On the 30th anniversary
"With this film, the main story of "Macross Frontier" is complete. If we're talking about something like a spin-off of Ranka's "Magical Girl Live" then I'd love to try doing it. In 2012, Macross will see its 30th anniversary. I'm looking at whether it's possible to take a different approach. That we may meet again!"

=====

On a related note, here's the full segment about the ending from the interview with Ebata Risa (character design) x Kawamori Shouji x Koyama Kariko (mangaka) in the 3rd volume of Sheryl~Kiss in the Galaxy~, p.175

The Secrets of the Ending

Koyama: Lots of elements were included in [Sayonara no Tsubasa], but as the director, are there any scenes you want viewers to pay particular attention to in order to analyse the film?

Kawamori: There are many such scenes. For example, let’s take the concerts. It’s hard to include lines (of dialogue) in the concert scenes, so it’s difficult to advance the story. Instead, we gave each of the concerts a theme – the concepts of ‘alchemy’ and ‘magical girl’ were laid on top of the movie’s theme(s). Viewers may find it interesting to try and link/associate the movie’s theme with the themes of the concerts.

(Editor): From the subtitle, “[~the wings of love’s separation]” [「恋離飛翼」= ren-ri-hi-yoku] I got the image of “marital vows” [「比翼連理」= hi-yoku-ren-ri], the phrase that gives us the meaning of “two as one”.

Kawamori: Besides “two as one”, those two (things) are not things that are similar, but rather there is a sense that they are of different natures. To be precise, we could say they are “three things of (three) different natures”. When [beings] that are completely different meet, something new is born – something like that. From the start, all Macross works are permeated by this theme of overcoming culture shock, overcoming the culture gap, and giving birth to something new.

Koyama: Sheryl and Ranka, Alto. Woman and man…that kind of meeting?

Kawamori: [That’s one of them.*] The film was constructed so that you can figure out the outline from your first viewing, but those kinds of meanings are doubly or triply loaded into it. The way we made this film could be looked at in terms of a jungle or a coral reef, each of which can be explored by various routes. Girls might look at it in terms of the love triangle, mecha-lovers might approach it from the mecha-chasing perspective – and so on. And after seeing it many times, you’d have found many routes that you didn’t see on your first viewing, you’ll have a more rounded grasp of the film. That’s how we made it.

*「そうですね。」 lit: could be “that’s right”, or “well…”, depending on his tone, so I’ve interpreted it according to what the rest of his reply seems to be suggesting. ——karice

Ebata: [That’s how it is for me. I’ve completely jumped on that bandwagon.]

Kawamori: For example, in the small video that runs during the ending (credits), we’ve taken clips from both movies as well as from “Nyan Kuri”, and there’s also meaning in the order of the clips.

Koyama: Other things, like the dialogue and the lyrics, also leave an impression. For example, “Open Ranka” and “he’s dancing” (as in, ‘doing kabuki’ 「傾いてやがる」) and so on…

Kawamori: With the amount of time we gave to the songs, the lines of dialogue became shorter, and stronger, holding all kinds of meaning. In other words, rather than everyday language, we used words that ‘danced’ 「 “傾いて”います」(laughs).

Koyama: I really want to ask you about the ending. What kind of image, or what kind of message, have you encoded in it?

Kawamori: For this, please think about what Ranka says in the epilogue, and watch the (small) video that plays during the ending. There’s a hint there, something of an answer. It seems that a lot of people unexpectedly missed that cut in the excitement [of their first viewing]. Even though we** made it disproportionately long (laughs).

Koyama: So there’s also meaning in the ending video and in the song Ranka sings?

Ebata: A lot of people seem to have missed it.

Kawamori: That’s right. Because we’re** mean, we** purposely made the video small (laughs). I thought it’d be a good thing if reactions changed depending on whether people saw it or not. It might be best to view this film from a seat right in the middle of the cinema, and towards the front.

**I’ve made these plural, but they could well be singular (i.e. Kawamori could be referring to himself alone). The Japanese text doesn’t indicate which one it is. ——karice

=====

And...

(1) Currently, I probably approach Macross from the 'character analysis' perspective, followed by a more general 'little mysteries' perspective and the mecha perspecitve, with the (love) triangle coming last, except where it's bleedingly obvious :heh: How about the rest of you?

(2) So...what do you all think about the little video that played during the ending? Specifically, the order of the clips?

Darthtabby

2011-11-13, 02:46

He doesn't seem to be that concerned about looking for Ranka when he's actually on Island Three though. He's quite intense on the train when he tells Sheryl there's a place he really wants to take her, but once he's on Island Three itself he seems content to take a leisurely pace for the most part. Even once Ranka's singing alerts him to her presence he doesn't seem to be in much of a rush to go to her.

Now combine that with him being able to see Mikhail, the fact that there's nothing saying where the train Ranka is boarding is going, and the fact that such a train could have multiple stops.

See why I'm inclined to take what he says to Sheryl at face value?

Edit: Karice -this kind of grew out of LMK's claim about Sheryl and Alto having no chemistry... It got me to revisit an old argument about whether Alto was actually into the outting he ended up on with Sheryl. I'd let things slide back then but with this "they have no chemistry claim" I decided I wanted to prove that he ended up enjoying the time he spent with Sheryl on that outting and wasn't itching to find Ranka while doing so.

Granted it probably is a little out of place in this thread...

cheesie

2011-11-13, 03:53

Wonderful, we can establish three things before we move on:

1. Alto and Sheryl fell in love and Macross Frontier acknowledged it in a way, well, only Macross series knows how. (hello, bittersweet ending). Alto had perhaps once entertained fleeting thoughts of settling down with Ranka because hey, she really is a nice girl and they get along well, but clearly, this became history when Sheryl grew more prominent in his life. Burn!

2. So Kawamori already had this ending in mind during the development of the Tv series. Don't mind the Aruran butthurt going around here, this is what happens when a group of overzealous fans put on full powered shipping goggles and write fanfics to one another, agree how no one else but them could see the Absolute Truth, and then stay permanently in a state of denial when the TV series, movies, guidebooks, interviews, illustrations and The Word of God blasted those fanfics to a billion pieces, all this without anyone lifting a finger.

3. Kawamori evidently has a sweet bone - the childhood Arusherri scene nearly made me melt in a puddle of fangirl goo.

Now that we've agreed on this, we can now make full use of the ignore function to block some people...

Dash_Hunter

2011-11-13, 04:44

Moving on, I'm putting aside the director's interview for the moment, since a certain controversial article (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=3565054#post3565054) has finally been verified. Although I won't be posting the scan, all the text within these 「brackets」 is noted to be from Kawamori himself (the Re: subheadings are mine). I've also corrected the mistakes I spotted in my original translation - if there are others, please let me know :heh:

So now it's confirmed that the interview is real? good to know.
Thanks for translating that text back then, and for verifying and translating it again now, Karice. ;)

(2) So...what do you all think about the little video that played during the ending? Specifically, the order of the clips?
To be honest I didn't pay attention to it (except for certain scene), I thought it was just a video with random scenes from the movies put in order, I didn't even noticed the parts from the "nyan kuri".
But now with this I'll watch it again later, keeping in mind the order of the scenes.

Now that we've agreed on this, we can now make full use of the ignore function to block some people...
I have never used the ignore function on a forum, and I won't start now because normally I ignore those kind of posts by myself, so there's no need for that. :p

MichiNekoChan

2011-11-13, 05:02

(2) So...what do you all think about the little video that played during the ending? Specifically, the order of the clips?

Stop being so amazing Karice.

In any case, i just re watched the ending video in the credits (twice, even). All I can think of is @_@ Whut? I don't notice anything specific about the order of the clips at all.

LoveMeKags

2011-11-13, 05:44

I know he spotted Ranka boarding a train, but I'm not inclined to believe he went to Island Three to look for her. There's nothing saying where the train is going, and she's already made contact with Mikhail. Besides, how would he know where Ranka plans to get off at?

Given all that it's logical to think that his reason for going to Island Three was the one he told Sheryl with such intensity after he spotted one of the Islands through the window of the train the two of them were on -that there was a place he really wanted to take her.

Sorry for pushing the Island Three thing so hard but I'd let the matter drop during a past discussion with LMK this time around I'm inclined not to. The evidence is for Alto being eager to show Sheryl Island Three and against him spending the whole time wishing he was looking for Ranka.

He has been, subconsciously, searching for Ranka throughout the episode since the phone call from Michael. And since Michael received said message from Ozma (their commanding officer), it becomes like a pride thing to Alto more than friendship; "if I find her first, I get in the commander's good graces" is what he's thinking, and giving his hard training, that would be a plus; but he's also concerned about her. He had no idea she'd been suspended.

But the questionable thing about the "boarding a train" piece you're talking about is that we only see him watching Ranka board the train. We don't Michael do so in follow. So we can assume Alto's face at that was "she's there!"

There is no doubt that when they reach Island 3, Alto is searching for Ranka. It's not because he knows she's there but he is actually searching every port (once again subconsciously) for her. He decided to start with Island 3 on ambition (and also to show Sheryl the Zentradi). But, a part of me has to wonder if Alto was thinking of Ranka's 1/4th Zentrant when going there. But, in the end, when he finds her, his face is "I knew it."

There was no argue in the fact Alto had been searching for Ranka; but of course he wasn't going to tell Sheryl and ruin her "fun" with the panties and whatnot. It was duty oriented to begin with and that's how it ended.

magnuskn

2011-11-13, 06:24

[Currently, I probably approach Macross from the 'character analysis' perspective, followed by a more general 'little mysteries' perspective and the mecha perspecitve, with the (love) triangle coming last, except where it's bleedingly obvious :heh: How about the rest of you?

Character analysis, love triangle, general story. Mecha is simply part of the universe, I am not really interested in the technical details of them, as they are physically even more implausible than BattleMechs from BattleTech.

karice67

2011-11-13, 06:52

So now it's confirmed that the interview is real? good to know.It's not really an interview...it's set up as a collection of comments about the mysteries that most viewers are meant to have come away thinking about.

Of course, the most important question in most people's minds isn't going to be answered :heh:

Stop being so amazing Karice.

In any case, i just re watched the ending video in the credits (twice, even). All I can think of is @_@ Whut? I don't notice anything specific about the order of the clips at all.'Amazing'? Heavens, this is NOTHING compared to what some other Macross fans have done over the years.

To be honest, I have no real idea what he wants us to take from it myself, just some, possibly quite biased speculation. So I'm really curious as to what other people think.

Character analysis, love triangle, general story. Mecha is simply part of the universe, I am not really interested in the technical details of them, as they are physically even more implausible than BattleMechs from BattleTech.Mecha in Macross is AWESOME! Don't knock the mecha! :D

magnuskn

2011-11-13, 07:03

Mecha in Macross is AWESOME! Don't knock the mecha! :D

I'm not. Mecha combat is great in Macross. But I am also not getting into technical discussions about them, because while the combat looks fantastic, the technical aspect really is not interesting to me.

Tak

2011-11-13, 11:32

Mecha in Macross is AWESOME! Don't knock the mecha! :D

But of course my dear, so are you. :naughty:

- Tak

BetoJR

2011-11-13, 12:06

Sooooo... When's the duel?

Tak

2011-11-13, 12:22

Sooooo... When's the duel?

I already won, because I am the one with the dress... :naughty:

- Tak

Thess

2011-11-13, 16:31

Stop being so amazing Karice.

In any case, i just re watched the ending video in the credits (twice, even). All I can think of is @_@ Whut? I don't notice anything specific about the order of the clips at all.

Maybe he means the clips ended (with the implication Sheryl's awakening) just before the concert starts? The last clips are Ranka's cover in Afterschool Overflown, Bride Sheryl, Alto speaking as he folds and Sheryl's humming Hoshi Kira. So yeah.....

'Amazing'? Heavens, this is NOTHING compared to what some other Macross fans have done over the years.

You are amazing and super patient.

karice67

2011-11-15, 03:18

@Tak
Does that mean that if I asked, you'd hand over the dress? :p

@Thess
Not really, I just find translating fun. Though episode commentaries are a little more challenging than I like atm... :eyespin:

...but I'm going to have to pass the baton over to Yot-chan for a while here - lest I fail my exam later this week! :heh:

edit: one other thing...a couple of groups have now modified the original sub and released their own versions. If anyone has them, might I request the .ass file(s) please? I just want to see what the edits are like...

Yot-chan

2011-11-15, 10:20

@Tak
...but I'm going to have to pass the baton over to Yot-chan for a while here - lest I fail my exam later this week! :heh:
Damn you Karice... :p

Okay, personally, I *hate* translating interviews, but I'll try to have the Kawamori bits about the ending up by tomorrow or Thursday.

Darthtabby

2011-11-15, 20:13

Thanks for your work both of you.

Falcor

2011-11-18, 10:21

Some amusing "notes" found inside SnT's ASS subtitle file:
Style: rankakeysong,Complete in Him
Style: anotherfuckingrankasongwtf,CheapSignage
Style: HOLYSHITANOTHERONE,D3 Streetism
Style: <RHExcelion> I FUCKING SWEAR IF THE NEXT SONG IS ALSO A RANKA SONG,Brady Bunch
Style: AWWWWWWSHITYOUDUNGOOFEDNOW,Gabriola
Style: HERE WE GO rankagoaway,Amienne
Style: theonlygoodrankasong,Amienne
Come on now... even the Ranka fans must be :heh: at that. Or not.... :p

Edit:
Comparing her to the Brady Bunch... you honestly haven't seen the show...:heh:
As for the others... honestly, don't care. It's an honor to have our "little queen" compared to shows that were very good (or otherwise enjoyable). You actually do us the honor of enjoying that too.:heh:

Or is that their username?That is straight cut & paste from the sub file - I only edited out the timing and placement strings to make it easier on the eyes. So no, none of that is my opinion; I actually enjoy most of the songs from both movies (and the series, of course :D) including Ranka's.

LoveMeKags

2011-11-18, 16:11

Some amusing "notes" found inside SnT's ASS subtitle file:

Come on now... even the Ranka fans must be :heh: at that. Or not.... :p

Comparing her to the Brady Bunch... you honestly haven't seen the show...:heh:
As for the others... honestly, don't care. It's an honor to have our "little queen" compared to shows that were very good (or otherwise enjoyable). You actually do us the honor of enjoying that too.:heh:

Or is that their username?

But also...

Kawamori already stated in the interview after Itsuwari no Utahime that Ranka's rise to fame was in that movie and the real "show" would appear in Sayonara no Tsubasa (proof that she'd become a Songstress). What they seem to be irritated with is Ranka's voice actor or singer (Nakajima Megumi). Since they pick on Ranka's songs, they're actually picking on the actor, and by that, you have to find a fine line between picking on a character and picking on an actor/singer who plays said character.

I hate Sheryl. I like Endo. I like May'n's songs and have them on repeat often.

See? I may hate the character, but I still followed May'n despite her being chosen for that part. These people who posted all this bullshit in that subtitle file will NOT follow Nakajima as an artist for they have already stated they hate her music by saying "really, another fucking Ranka song?" and being pissed about it.

So I think what someone should say to them is "find the fine line between disliking a character and disliking the person(/s) who play them."

raile

2011-11-18, 22:48

Ugh. I hated The Brady Bunch, it was just so....*shudders* Let's just not go there.

@LMK, the opinions of the subbers is just that, their opinions. Don't make it sound like everyone here shares the same thought as them, besides, theirs don't even compare to the True Tears sub. :heh:
And FYI, not everyone hates NakaMegu just because she plays Ranka. Get that straight. :rolleyes:

LoveMeKags

2011-11-18, 23:41

Ugh. I hated The Brady Bunch, it was just so....*shudders* Let's just not go there.

That's not what I meant. I'm saying that Ranka has no connection (structure, character, or bodily wise) with the Brady Bunch. So therefore there should be no comparison.

@LMK, the opinions of the subbers is just that, their opinions. Don't make it sound like everyone here shares the same thought as them, besides, theirs don't even compare to the True Tears sub. :heh:
And FYI, not everyone hates NakaMegu just because she plays Ranka. Get that straight. :rolleyes:

Yes, I know that.

I didn't watch True Tears.:heh:

And actually, what I mean by that last one was that, according to their "statements" for those parts where the songs came in, they really showed a hatred for having to sub Ranka's songs, which are - whether they realize it or not - Nakajima Megumi's songs. Therefore, they show hatred for Nakajima. I don't know if they realize that, so I decided to say so above. It wasn't that I felt they ALL hate Nakajima at all, just saying it comes off that way when they put notes like that in the subtitles.

Falcor

2011-11-18, 23:58

And actually, what I mean by that last one was that, according to their "statements" for those parts where the songs came in, they really showed a hatred for having to sub Ranka's songs, which are - whether they realize it or not - Nakajima Megumi's songs. Therefore, they show hatred for Nakajima. I don't know if they realize that, so I decided to say so above. It wasn't that I felt they ALL hate Nakajima at all, just saying it comes off that way when they put notes like that in the subtitles.IMHO, those "colorful metaphors" were meant to be sarcastic, not an actual critique. Otherwise I'm sure they wouldn't bother encoding them into the sub file. That is what makes it more of a running gag than anything else, since those aren't mere comments; they are the assigned string variables used whenever Ranka lyrics popup on screen. Adds a lot of unnecessary bulk to the sub file, but who's going to honestly complain - they did take the time to make the sub in the first place. For that, I'm sure many of us are grateful.

LoveMeKags

2011-11-19, 00:58

IMHO, those "colorful metaphors" were meant to be sarcastic, not an actual critique. Otherwise I'm sure they wouldn't bother encoding them into the sub file. That is what makes it more of a running gag than anything else, since those aren't mere comments; they are the assigned string variables used whenever Ranka lyrics popup on screen. Adds a lot of unnecessary bulk to the sub file, but who's going to honestly complain - they did take the time to make the sub in the first place. For that, I'm sure many of us are grateful.

Ah, I guess you're right.:D

But still... really... was it necessary...?

Falcor

2011-11-19, 02:49

But still... really... was it necessary...?
http://41.imagebam.com/download/Nx0TUCHGu0bEOJH2m49sUg/16002/160017409/lol.gif It could have been worse. Obviously one of the authors of that sub isn't a Ranka fan, but if they really wanted to be snide, they could have made her lyrics tiny or used a ridiculous font. :D

LoveMeKags

2011-11-19, 03:50

http://41.imagebam.com/download/Nx0TUCHGu0bEOJH2m49sUg/16002/160017409/lol.gif It could have been worse. Obviously one of the authors of that sub isn't a Ranka fan, but if they really wanted to be snide, they could have made her lyrics tiny or used a ridiculous font. :D

Well, I'm not a Sheryl fan, but when I fixed the subs on mine, I didn't put such ridiculous things as notes. Though, I did about the fake deaths...

So many stupid fake deaths... troll Kawamori...

moncikoma

2011-11-20, 06:12

30周年について
「今のところ『マクロスF』本筋の物語はこれで完結。ランカの魔法少女ライブのスピンオフとかなら、やってみたいですけどね。2012年に『マクロス』は30周年を迎えます。その頃にはまた別のアプローチができればと思っています。みなさんとまたお会いできますよう！」

On the 30th anniversary
"With this film, the main story of "Macross Frontier" is complete. If we're talking about something like a spin-off of Ranka's "Magical Girl Live" then I'd love to try doing it. In 2012, Macross will see its 30th anniversary. I'm looking at whether it's possible to take a different approach. That we may meet again!"[/SPOILER]

ranka spin off? magical girl....
i never thought kawamori is intrested in mahou..:uhoh:

but i think i want it to be true if sheryl is also appear...maybe as a villian...!
a witch! that would be cool!

Darthtabby

2011-11-20, 11:18

ranka spin off? magical girl....
i never thought kawamori is intrested in mahou..:uhoh:

but i think i want it to be true if sheryl is also appear...maybe as a villian...!
a witch! that would be cool!

The obvious role for Sheryl in such a series would be as a fairy who grants Ranka her powers. :P

Hmmm... who would all the other cast members be? We need to give this some though. :lol:

raile

2011-11-20, 12:09

Brera will be the villain, whom Ranka knows is bad--but is just too hot to despise. :p

magnuskn

2011-11-20, 14:39

It should be Magical Zentran Klan. Her dual states just scream "transformation sequence". :p

Darthtabby

2011-11-20, 16:13

You called?

http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/761106/absurdres-blue_hair-breasts-censored-convenient_ce

BTW, I think Magical Meltran Klan Klan flows a little better.

MichiNekoChan

2011-11-20, 16:39

Open Klan Klan?

In any case, finally got the BF to watch it. I think he enjoyed it thoroughly (he likes to kerfuffle me about Ranka)

I also fixed the problem I had with the subs by just opening the .ASS in notepad and editing it.

*And tinkered with timing on Altos confession scene to Sheryl to make it more ...dramatic* :)

magnuskn

2011-11-21, 04:06

You called?

http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/761106/absurdres-blue_hair-breasts-censored-convenient_ce

BTW, I think Magical Meltran Klan Klan flows a little better.

Ha! True enough. :p

Yot-chan

2011-11-21, 11:45

but i think i want it to be true if sheryl is also appear...maybe as a villian...!
a witch! that would be cool!

YAWWWWWNNNN... Been there, done that (http://samada08.blog10.fc2.com/blog-entry-983.html).

BetoJR

2011-11-21, 11:51

You guys are weird.

karice67

2011-11-21, 17:51

*And tinkered with timing on Altos confession scene to Sheryl to make it more ...dramatic* :)oooh...what did you do?

=====

And alright, fine :p, exam over, so here's the next part of the director interview...
In case anyone missed it, here's part 1 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=3852567#post3852567)...

At the climax, Alto was trying to tell Sheryl something, wasn’t he?

He might have said “Ai…Ai-kun”, you know (laughs).

Hu———h?

What Alto said – I’ll leave that to your imagination. What is certain is that he was conveying his feelings clearly to Sheryl.

In the last scene, the Vajra folded out and went on a journey somewhere, didn’t they?

That’s basically what happened. What isn’t clear is whether Ai-kun left with them or not.

Do you see this as a happy end? Or as a bad end?

To me, I don’t think about it in the B&W manner of whether it was a happy end or a bad one. Because I think that it’s precisely this kind of thinking, about what is good and what is bad, that gives rise to the various problems and issues that we see in modern society. , rather than [something good or bad], I wanted to end in a way where the protagonists are able to take [another] step forward.

[B]Have you looked at fan reactions since the movie was released?

At the event on the opening day, when I was walking around Ikebukuro’s Nanja Town, I was really glad when fans came up to me to talk about it. Their views on the ending of the (love) triangle were generally what I’d expected, but what they thought had happened to Alto was rather surprising. Well, we’ve gotten a range of different opinions from everyone. But I think that would have been the case no matter what we decided upon. It really was a difficult decision to make.

p.s. There is another discussion about the ending in the ‘Special Talk’ [Zadankai] between Kawamori, Nakamura, Nakajima and Endo, which is a special on the BD (from 4:15~). Basically, they talk about how

the creative team debated about whether they should make it really unclear whether they managed to fold out or not
but if you actually look at the cut alone, it’s quite clear that they did
Alto can now communicate with the Queen, so he should be ok…but also, Ai-kun saving Sheryl and Ozma was actually a hint/foreshadowing that Alto would be fine, because the Queen would know that he couldn’t survive in the vacuum of space.
The exchange that follows is quite amusing, and leads to Nakamura saying that perhaps Alto made some kind of contract with the Queen when they were communicating in that ‘eye-contact’ scene => (Kawamori) Although if it goes a bit too far, and he falls in love with the Queen, that’ll be rather bad…it’s no longer a [love] triangle, but a [love] quadrangle…[so it was actually Kawamori, not Nakamura, who brought up the possibility of a love quadrangle!] => (Endo) I think that…that’s a love that can never be requited…:heh:

And that's probably the last of Kawamori's comments on the ending, at least from me for the time being...:)

magnuskn

2011-11-21, 18:05

Thanks for your work, karice. :)

I notice Kawamori fled into a convoluted non-answer when asked about what kind of ending it was. :heh:

MichiNekoChan

2011-11-22, 00:03

oooh...what did you do?

I just mainly spaced it out a bit more (so people who actually don't know what happens in the movie (IE - My BF) they just hang on edge a bit more.)

Now it just looks like:

Sheryl,
this might be late...
but, I
lo-

Heres he actual timing from my copy in case people wanna "see" how it looksDialogue: 0,1:46:04.58,1:46:06.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,S heryl,
Dialogue: 0,1:46:06.58,1:46:10.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,t his might be late...
Dialogue: 0,1:46:10.58,1:46:13.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,b ut, I
Dialogue: 0,1:46:14.05,1:46:14.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,l o-

EDIT: dunno why its giving funny spaces in the spoiler post, but yea... ignore that.

BaKaBaKaOtaKu

2011-11-22, 05:32

I watched it finally!! It's just too awesome..and i'm still speechless.. i'll just get back to give my proper impression of the film.. but i kinda teared up you know. cna't help it. LOL

Yot-chan

2011-11-22, 15:25

Dash_Hunter

2011-11-22, 16:35

Okay, I can take a "difference of opinion"... but this is F*CKIN' WAR!

http://www.robotechx.com/forums/43-movies-tv-and-sci-fi/16866-pacific-rim-2013.html?limit=10&start=10#17721

Will you all stand for some ROBOTECH FANBOY saying that Macross F is nothing but crickets chirping...? 'Cause I won't!

Well they really know how crickets chirping sound, it's the only thing they've been hearing from Robotech in years, so maybe they are confusing Macross and Robotech again.

Wait, did they delete the posts? I refreshed the page and now I can't find them.
Maybe they were afraid to start a war against you Yot-chan :D

Falcor

2011-11-22, 16:43

Yot-chan

2011-11-22, 16:44

Well they really know how crickets chirping sound, it's the only thing they've been hearing from Robotech in years, so maybe they are confusing Macross and Robotech again.

Wait, did they delete the posts? I refreshed the page and now I can't find them.
Maybe they were afraid to start a war against you Yot-chan :D
Yeah, they moved the posts. Here's the new location:

http://www.robotechx.com/forums/32-macross/13183-macross-frontier-movies.html?limit=10&start=30#17721

And MaverickLSC can't really start a war on me, since Dougbendo's been waging one on me for YEARS. Too bad the only thing he can do is call me "gay"...

Yot-chan

2011-11-22, 16:50

Looks like the forum moderator there stepped in before the flame wars could begin. :heh:
Kinda sad when a moderator has to step in to keep a flame war from erupting between an ADMINISTRATOR and me, isn't it...?

Dash_Hunter

2011-11-22, 17:02

Yeah, they moved the posts. Here's the new location:

http://www.robotechx.com/forums/32-macross/13183-macross-frontier-movies.html?limit=10&start=30#17721

And MaverickLSC can't really start a war on me, since Dougbendo's been waging one on me for YEARS. Too bad the only thing he can do is call me "gay"...

That really shows you the state of the robotech fandom, They don't have anything to say so they resort to those kind of things

Kinda sad when a moderator has to step in to keep a flame war from erupting between an ADMINISTRATOR and me, isn't it...?

Yeah that's sad, and somewhat hilarious at the same time :heh:

sa547

2011-11-22, 19:55

LoveMeKags

2011-11-23, 00:06

Looks like the forum moderator there stepped in before the flame wars could begin. :heh:

However, after reading through that thread, it makes me rather curious about this Pacific Rim movie... 1st I've ever heard of it. Sounds as if the Robotech fanboys are really wanting it to be RT in disguise. Can't really blame them, since we have Macross Frontier while they have... nothing. :p

Well, just be glad, I never was attached to Robotech. I only saw it... what, four or five years ago? I saw the Japanese version of DYRL before it. So I was floored at the changes in Robotech (because they sometimes added audio that didn't even apply).

You know, it also amazes me how stupid we Americans can be whilst dubbing. In "Ronin Warriors," they mention about cell phones at one point and I'm like "you realize this is 1987, right?" I mean, I get the dub was done in 1996, but that just shows how pathetic they are that they can't find something else to fill in the fact they said the whole line the last lip movement.:heh:

kk2extreme

2011-11-23, 00:11

Are they trying to mirror the ending to Macross Zero?

Tak

2011-11-23, 02:07

Are they trying to mirror the ending to Macross Zero?

Hardly a mirror...

Macross Zero's ending was more acceptable, where Shinn followed Sara to Protoculture paradise.

In Frontier... it was what I felt like wordplay on the movie's title.

- Tak

LoveMeKags

2011-11-23, 02:46

Except Macross Zero was a failure to the title it was given: "prequel/prologue." The pace lacked what I was expecting from the plot and the romance just popped out of nowhere to me. The characters also seemed one-dimensional; so Frontier has no tie there at all.

But this ain't the "comparison" thread, so I'll just give some that are tied to the plot/storyline and ending.

There are a lot of ways to tell you how Zero and Frontier held differences in storyline and deliverance of the ending. For one, the romance in Zero was rushed and lacked a real show of where it even began, so the "choice" was quite questioning whereas Frontier showed quite a substantial amount of growth on both sides of the triangle right before pulling an anime classic: "asspull childhood memory."
The Frontier movies altogether actually pull away from the past Macross' by resorting to anime classics to end the movie, especially on the love triangle side. The hero disappearing and "asspull childhood memory" coupled along with the amount of "fake deaths" made it less than enjoyable plot wise.
Also, the 2nd movie failed to have a nice or otherwise decent plot. It was like they jumbled everything from the series into one movie without the "Ranka leaves Frontier to create peace with Vajra" aspect. The plot suffered from overuse of explanation in the 2nd movie. Had they done most of this in the 1st movie, it wouldn't have been so boring (no, probably not, but still...).
The love triangle in the Frontier movies ended early on in the 1st movie. Honestly, they never strayed towards Ranka once (not in the "love interest" way), to be honest. At least in past Macross', they gave hints or indications that there was a love triangle, but in these two movies, we center around Sheryl for 90% of the story; which drops all the other characters out of the equation. But because of this, Alto and Sheryl are practically boyfriend and girlfriend by the 2nd movie, which deforms his character a lot and also makes the whole "love triangle" fall apart. I honestly expected the Frontier movies to at least show some salute to DYRL in the love triangle piece (like show some decent build up for both girls with the male protagonist) but they failed and dropped it down hard.

All of that being said, those are the reasons why we AruRan fans take the fall so hard.

Be glad you got an anime classic, AruSherri. Apparently, "asspull childhood memories" still make people cry and survive. Sorry, but I wanna see some originality away from "childhood flashback" with sudden love and "Romeo & Juliet" endings. Show me that for AruSherri (as well as new personality on Sheryl's side) and I might accept the couple.

magnuskn

2011-11-23, 03:14

Random rant is random.

LoveMeKags

2011-11-23, 03:24

Random rant is random.

How is it random?

I began by explaining the differences in Zero and then finished with a final review towards the difference in the love triangle by differencing away from Zero towards past Macross' in general. It's not a rant but rather a small comparison.

There isn't a comparison thread anyway, so I don't see what had you going "random" when there is no thread to put it in...

MichiNekoChan

2011-11-23, 03:27

Exactly.. especially since it was only ONE memory and Alto didn't even remember it til near the very end! :P

I think its honestly just trying to keep the water out of the leaking life boat by this point.

LoveMeKags

2011-11-23, 03:51

magnuskn

2011-11-23, 04:18

How is it random?

I began by explaining the differences in Zero and then finished with a final review towards the difference in the love triangle by differencing away from Zero towards past Macross' in general. It's not a rant but rather a small comparison.

There isn't a comparison thread anyway, so I don't see what had you going "random" when there is no thread to put it in...

It's a random rant, because you were just comparing Zero to Frontier and suddenly it turned into another "Boohoohoo, Rankas loss was so unfair!" rant, sprinkled with a "I hate Sheryl so much!" on top.

LoveMeKags

2011-11-23, 04:20

It's random rant, because you were just comparing Zero to Frontier and suddenly it turned into another "Boohoohoo, Rankas loss was so unfair!" rant, sprinkled with a "I hate Sheryl so much!" on top.

Hardly. I stated that it took a way, and I will bold WAY, different approach to Macross this time than ever before in the love triangle; to the point where there was no love triangle, and that is the basis of it.

Take it as offense or not, but "childhood memories" are a classic anime asspull, especially if said memory did not exist in the original production.

Dash_Hunter

2011-11-23, 04:51

Take it as offense or not, but "childhood memories" are a classic anime asspull, especially if said memory did not exist in the original production.

But that childhood memory was not the decisive factor in Alto's choice, It's clear that Alto had romantic feelings for Sheryl before remembering that moment.

Or are you telling me that Alto chose a girl over the other one because of five or less minutes of his childhood? If that's the case I suggest you to watch the movie again (although most likely it would be useless).

BetoJR

2011-11-23, 05:00

And how was the triangle in these movies different from the one in Zero, for instance? Did anyone see that one going the other way, like, ever? So, not so different, then...

LoveMeKags

2011-11-23, 05:11

But that childhood memory was not the decisive factor in Alto's choice, It's clear that Alto had romantic feelings for Sheryl before remembering that moment.

Or are you telling me that Alto chose a girl over the other one because of five or less minutes of his childhood? If that's the case I suggest you to watch the movie again (although most likely it would be useless).

No, Kawamori stated it: "how to make Sheryl fall for Alto?"

The same applies for Alto too. Alto, up until that flashback, had only been thinking about time he spent with Sheryl like any normal person would a comrade or friend (or have you forgotten when Michael was remembered in the series after his death?). Up until the moment that flashback appeared, no "romantic" feelings were seen or conveyed between either of them, it was all "getting to know one another." Therefore, the flashback was the essential asspull classic "childhood memory."

Think about it carefully: if he had really loved Sheryl, why didn't Michael notice it - the person who notices everything around Alto?
Because it didn't show through till the end.

And how was the triangle in these movies different from the one in Zero, for instance? Did anyone see that one going the other way, like, ever? So, not so different, then...

Actually, it was quite obvious where the directors were aiming the movie at: Sheryl. It was obvious from the start of the 1st movie when Sheryl appeared: she got the most screen time, the most shots with Alto (in general), and the most songs (not to mention played the heroine). In the 2nd movie: she got the most screen time, the most shots with Alto (again), and the got to play the heroine (though Ranka finally got to join). It was obvious from the get-go that the directors were aiming towards Alto and Sheryl just from the amount of scenes. If you're gonna make a triangle, why don't you even it up a bit by having Ranka have just as many scenes with Alto? No, instead, they had Alto being distant from Ranka (his freaking friend) and hanging out all the time with Sheryl (a person he just met).

Now don't tell me you can't tell the triangle was one-sided towards Alto/Sheryl when 90% of the time you see only Alto and Sheryl together and Ranka gets like 5 scenes with him in 1 movie and around 10 scenes with him in the 2nd?

If you can't, then really, re-watch the movie yourself. It's obvious where the directors were headed and it just makes me sick to my stomach to think they want to compare this to DYRL. That movie had a more balanced love triangle where he spent romantic moments with both females (and I mean dates/kissing/hugging).

karice67

2011-11-23, 05:50

To everyone this applies to: I think there is little point in arguing about that topic with someone who seems to live on a different planet, with different standards about how to represent attraction and whatnot in popular culture.

======

Moving on. ;)

Methinks I'll stay right away from the Robotech fandom. Not even going to try watching it, no sirree. :p

======

I just mainly spaced it out a bit more (so people who actually don't know what happens in the movie (IE - My BF) they just hang on edge a bit more.)

Now it just looks like:

Sheryl,
this might be late...
but, I
lo-icic.

Yeah, the way Commie did it (and the way I left it at first...) was rather anti-climatic. I'm redoing mine as well, slowly because of all of the things I wanted to fix...(though I'll need to get them done within the week if I'm to pass my brother the entire series...)

======

I notice Kawamori fled into a convoluted non-answer when asked about what kind of ending it was. :heh:But what's wrong with an ending where the characters have all grown and can take another step forward? :p

Ok ok, I'll shut-up again until we get a bit further into the interview. There's something else I found rather interesting a bit further on. Though whether it interests the rest of you is another matter altogether...:heh:

LoveMeKags

2011-11-23, 06:03

To everyone this applies to: I think there is little point in arguing something with someone who seems to live on a different planet, with different standards about how to represent attraction and whatnot in popular culture.

I take offense to your remark. How would you like it if I was "politely" calling you stupid?

Please, if you knew anything about the past Macross' (which I doubt you really do considering you apparently didn't watch some of them by your recent posts), then you'd know that most Macross' have even triangles via scenes. SDF, DYRL, Plus, 7, and even Zero had an equal scenes where the lead male/female got to have romantic or otherwise suggestive moments with the other girl. The movies of Frontier did not have this. The series did.

That is something the directors did. They had more scenes with Alto and Sheryl than Alto and Ranka in both movies combined. And the fact of the matter is, it was Alto and Sheryl from beginning to end if you look at just how many scenes they have and how they react in the scenes. He gets more suggestive (or romantic too) scene with Sheryl than Ranka (who only got one suggestive scene with Alto: the date) and also, she dominated both movies with her stories. The directors were aiming for Sheryl to win the love triangle.

I pretty much didn't get my hopes up to high after seeing the first movie and watching the failure that is the movie version of Frontier. Not only was the movie boring but there was too much Sheryl and not enough of anyone else.

Methinks I'll stay right away from the Robotech fandom. Not even going to try watching it, no sirree. :p

I highly recommend you don't watch Robotech at all!

It'll change your whole view of Macross for at least a year or two at best. So don't. "It's better for your mental health." - Sheryl (Ep.3)

BetoJR

2011-11-23, 06:04

Actually, it was quite obvious where the directors were aiming the movie at: Sheryl.
And how is that related to my question, unless it's to confirm what I was saying?

Now don't tell me you can't tell the triangle was one-sided towards Alto/Sheryl
(...)
If you can't, then really, re-watch the movie yourself.
You are the one who should read what others write more carefully. In all this, you didn't answer my question...

karice67

2011-11-23, 06:10

I take offense to your remark. How would you like it if I was "politely" calling you stupid?I'm not saying you're 'stupid'. I am saying that you have very different standards from the rest of us, at least those of us posting here, on how to interpret popular culture.

I.e. we've long established that you're not going to convince me (and many others here) to see your way, I'm not going to convince you to see mine, and no one else here will convince you of theirs either.

Hence, I see no point in discussing it any further, since it's already gone around in circles so many times :)

edit: Oh yeah, and at present, the only one of the major Kawamori-approved Macross works that I haven't seen is Macross 7, so I am quite well aware of the triangles and how they've been presented, thank you.

LoveMeKags

2011-11-23, 06:19

And how is that related to my question, unless it's to confirm what I was saying?

That's easily answered: Zero's directors gave a fair number of suggestive or romantic scenes where both Mao/Sara and Shin were together. The directors for the Frontier movies did not do this.
It was directed one way: towards Alto and Sheryl.

If you'd watched the movies back (and I mean back-to-back) you jump from one Alto and Sheryl scene to another, even suggestive scenes, and only see one to three scenes with Ranka instead (which was one-sided because the directors cared less for that couple). At least in Zero, they kept suggestive scenes for Mao at the end (like Mao calling out to Shin, him hearing her song, and etc.) but that does not come in the movies of Frontier.

There was no love triangle in Sayonara no Tsubasa. It was clear as day at the end of Itsuwari no Utahime that the love triangle had ended on Alto and Sheryl because the directors gave you that impression. They centered around Alto and Sheryl so much throughout the movie and into the second one, which was mostly about Sheryl again, that you couldn't go near Alto and Ranka if you truly wanted to. They made it drastically clear in the scenes that Alto and Ranka were friends (no romantic growth whatsoever on Alto's side) and Alto and Sheryl were a couple (with drastic romantic growth in 4hrs).

And the pathetic part is... the series was at least decent in triangle growth from all sides of the field (Alto had feelings for both Ranka and Sheryl), but the movies just piss on the fact there's a love triangle.

You are the one who should read what others write more carefully. In all this, you didn't answer my question...

Naw, I read it, and I answered it; but because I never mentioned Zero in my answer or gave a direct comparison, you feel the need to ask for more.:p

I'm not saying you're 'stupid'. I am saying that you have very different standards from the rest of us, at least those of us posting here, of how to interpret popular culture.

I.e. we're long established you're not going to convince me (and many others here) to see your way, I'm not going to convince you to see mine, and no one else here will convince you of theirs either.

So I see no point in discussing it any further, since it's already gone around in circles so many times :)

Then I take back my "offense" piece. I misunderstood then. But it sounded like that. Perhaps wording it differently would've been wise.

And actually, it's not only me who thinks this way. If all the Alto/Ranka fans weren't banned from here, I'm sure they'd say the same thing: Sheryl dominated the movies and by the end of the 1st, we already knew somewhere inside that Sheryl was the winner just by how the directors and script writers had put her out to be. There was no competition, therefore it wasn't a love triangle. Had they at least balanced the triangle by giving Ranka some scenes that were suggestive in the 2nd movie, then perhaps we all would've seen a possibility of Ranka making a comeback, but unfortunately, it was all Sheryl; and that just disgusts me about the movies. A Macross has a love triangle, not a parallel line with a person standing outside looking in. Otherwise, it ain't Macross. And that's how it was from movie 1: a parallel line with a person standing outside looking in. And Ranka knew it too, which is why she constantly got upset over remembering Alto being kissed by Sheryl.

BetoJR

2011-11-23, 06:22

That's easily answered: Zero's directors gave a fair number of suggestive or romantic scenes where both Mao/Sara and Shin were together.
No, it didn't. But I'm not surprised you didn't see it that way.

Naw, I read it, and I answered it; but because I never mentioned Zero in my answer or gave a direct comparison, you feel the need to ask for more.:p
One thing I will never do is ask for more of you, dear. Let's just leave it at that.

LoveMeKags

2011-11-23, 06:41

No, it didn't. But I'm not surprised you didn't see it that way.

You realize that "suggestive scene" means them being together in a scene (like holding a conversation, being rescued, etc.) and "romantic scene" means them doing intimate things (like holding hands, kissing, etc.).

Mao: was with Shin when he first arrived, spent time with him on the island, got rescued often, kissed him once, called out to him which he heard her voice, sung to him as he descended
Sara: was with Shin when he first arrived, spent time with him on the island, got rescued by him, kissed him once, died with him

Both had equal "suggestive" and "romantic" scenes with him where both girls got a chance at his heart.

The Frontier movies had:

Sheryl: meets Alto, got rescued often, went on a long date with him, kissed him on the cheek once, was thought about, told she wasn't alone, was apologized to for failing to save Galaxy, was holding a deep in-depth conversation with Alto about their pasts as professionals, was broken out of jail by Alto mostly, tries to grab Alto's hand but fails and pushes Ranka to him, has flashback of meeting younger Alto, admits herself as said girl, is acknowledged as said girl, is confessed to
Ranka: already knows Alto, gets rescued often, introduces him to Aimo, talks with him in Family Mart, shares in-depth conversation about Aimo, shares one moment of hand holding with him, is told he'll e-mail her later, goes on date with him, confession scene, realizes Vajra hear her song but he's shot down, is rejected

Notice how one-sided the crap is? Look at how many "suggestive" and "romantic" scenes Sheryl had with Alto compared to Ranka. Now look back at all of those scenes and tell me where exactly you felt the directors were going with all of those scenes being laid out. It screamed Alto/Sheryl from the beginning and I wasn't surprised that was the ending.

Hell, they gave it in the fucking trailer, for the love of God. The tear drop scene on Alto's cheek, the excessive Alto and Sheryl moments (or just them individually) completely pushed Ranka out of the picture with the exception of a few scenes. The trailers for the movie barely showed Ranka at all, more Alto and Sheryl than anything else.

raile

2011-11-23, 09:21

More whines about the ending and the "lackluster" main couple?

Puh-leeeaaase.

Predictable but it's getting redundant.

Oh yeah, I loved how they animated Sheryl singing Northern Cross and Lion, they made her lips sync to the lyrics perfectly.

Why people keep sucking on sour grapes is beyond me.

vivitoru

2011-11-23, 09:31

Mao totally had a legit chance with Shin and people totally bought into that.

Really now, I don't know if saying Mao had a better shot with Shin in Zero than Ranka had with Alto in the Frontier movies speaks volume as a valid argument.

Tak

2011-11-23, 11:46

And the pathetic part is... the series was at least decent in triangle growth from all sides of the field (Alto had feelings for both Ranka and Sheryl), but the movies just piss on the fact there's a love triangle.

Actually, the pathetic part is where a small minority actually thought the triangle was decent.

And of course you thought it was decent, because the ending to the series provided a fait-accompli to the triangle, if nothing else.

But if the triangle was as decent as you like to believe or if the characters were developed in the way you thought was good...

Then Ranka should be on par with Sheryl on the polls. She isn't.

Then there should not be an endless marathon of anti-Ranka posts on 2ch.

Then there should not be angry fans, who bought the BD, cut Ranka's character out and stabbing it with a scissor.

And although Ranka's character had a Chinese name, her character in Chinese speaking regions is treated much worse than here. See, her Chinese nickname is green pubic hair... yeah...

Then there are some of us who thought the triangle was far from decent, but frustrating at best, with Ranka in the way of the goodies. Fortunately, they corrected this trend in the movie. Thank Protoculture.

Hell, I thought Kathy was going to be Sheryl's competition in the triangle. She looked like a Misa-hard ass, that and she er... got a reading off me from... oh... nvm.

- Tak

magnuskn

2011-11-23, 13:33

If all the Alto/Ranka fans weren't banned from here,

Huh? Outside of the great Cthulhu ( = BleachOD ), who exactly is banned here?

Lancel

2011-11-23, 13:52

Hell, I thought Kathy was going to be Sheryl's competition in the triangle. She looked like a Misa-hard ass, that and she er... got a reading off me from... oh... nvm.

I liked Cathy before I liked Sheryl. She was faceted right from the start with her being a young officer with a lot of job pressure, being nice to people because it's her job, and then calling those same people bitches behind their backs. Reasonably competent, too, "Hey! Hey! No more singing, emergency means we get you to safety." And got her out quickly too! Even Alto thought so! :D

Tak

2011-11-23, 14:06

I liked Cathy before I liked Sheryl. She was faceted right from the start with her being a young officer with a lot of job pressure, being nice to people because it's her job, and then calling those same people bitches behind their backs. Reasonably competent, too, "Hey! Hey! No more singing, emergency means we get you to safety." And got her out quickly too! Even Alto thought so! :D

Unfortunately, her character likability was marred by her brief, but memorable interaction with a certain watermelon...

Fortunately, again, they corrected that in the movie. Thank Protoculture.

- Tak

MichiNekoChan

2011-11-23, 15:35

Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me?

It's hard to tell...:heh:
Rather belated reply but....

I was agreeing with Maggy, but you managed to post before me. (and I didn't bother to edit it ;/)

Karice - If you managed to finish it up, post it! I still need to show the movie to friends, and would love to use your version.

Lancel

2011-11-23, 15:52

Unfortunately, her character likability was marred by her brief, but memorable interaction with a certain watermelon...

Fortunately, again, they corrected that in the movie. Thank Protoculture.

- Tak

An unfortunate truth, though I gotta say there were only three discretionary shots in Frontier. Two involved Cathy. >>

Thess

2011-11-23, 18:09

Actually, the pathetic part is where a small minority actually thought the triangle was decent.

And of course you thought it was decent, because the ending to the series provided a fait-accompli to the triangle, if nothing else.

But if the triangle was as decent as you like to believe or if the characters were developed in the way you thought was good...

Then Ranka should be on par with Sheryl on the polls. She isn't.

Then there should not be an endless marathon of anti-Ranka posts on 2ch.

Then there should not be angry fans, who bought the BD, cut Ranka's character out and stabbing it with a scissor.

And although Ranka's character had a Chinese name, her character in Chinese speaking regions is treated much worse than here. See, her Chinese nickname is green pubic hair... yeah...

Then there are some of us who thought the triangle was far from decent, but frustrating at best, with Ranka in the way of the goodies. Fortunately, they corrected this trend in the movie. Thank Protoculture.

Hell, I thought Kathy was going to be Sheryl's competition in the triangle. She looked like a Misa-hard ass, that and she er... got a reading off me from... oh... nvm.

- Tak

Ranka is still more popular than say, Alto Saotome, in general polls there (the movie made him more likable to the general audience. Did he appear in polls before the movie version?). Or as popular as he is in the Macross poll (she beat Misa's popularity, didn't she in the Macross Ace poll?).

However the Alto/Ranka romance indeed isn't as popular as the Sheryl/Alto. In my experience, her fans in Japan prefer her with Brera. So the Kiss in the Galaxy manga was pretty much Kawamori truly approving an official universe that gives Sheryl fans and Ranka fans the happy endings they wanted (with that hinted double wedding).

Tak

2011-11-23, 18:41

Ranka is still more popular than say, Alto Saotome, in general polls there (the movie made him more likable to the general audience. Did he appear in polls before the movie version?). Or as popular as he is in the Macross poll (she beat Misa's popularity, didn't she in the Macross Ace poll?).

In most polls, there are both a male & female category, so the answer is yes. In fact, he beat Ranka a few times, much to my amazement. But Thess, this is Macross. If a given singer's popularity does not eclipse that of the pilot... we have a problem :D

OTOH, Ranka does indeed have her own base... by herself. Though when it gets to the triangle, she gets thrashed, despite individuals harboring some appreciation for her talent. And thats based on personal observation.

However, it would appear that Ranka indeed... has a non-conflicting, even appreciated pairing with Banana supported by Japanese fans... yeah, its incest... but in anime, relatives are fair game.

- Tak

karice67

2011-11-23, 18:43

Is it out of the system yet?? Can we move on???

=====

Official Complete Book Interview: Kawamori Shouji
part 1 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=3852567#post3852567), part 2 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=3867687#post3867687) and now, part 3.

With this film, the “Macross F” project has reached a stage where you can stop to catch your breath. Until now, how long have you been involved in this project?

It started as a project for the “25th Anniversary of Macross”, and it was 2006 when we had a tangible project. But if we’re talking about plot ideas, I’ve been working on it since “Macross Zero”. We’d originally planned for the series to start in October 2007, but with all the work [that we had], it kept being postponed. We managed to barely make it for the 25th anniversary by broadcasting the Deculture Edition in December 2007. Thinking about it in this way, I guess I’ve been working on it for five years now.

Are there any differences between what you originally planned and the series that aired on TV in 2008?

The outline has largely remained the same, but in the original plan, Michel’s death occurred in the first half of the series – we made organizational changes like that. What was important about this series, “Macross F”, was the notion of “a school-based story with double heroines”, which we’d never done before. Yoshino Hiroyuki, who was responsible for Series Composition, used to be a school teacher, so ‘school-based stories’ are his specialty. On the music front, building on the past and present, we decided to make one an already established star, the Galactic Fairy, with the other a new girl being promoted.

At that stage, had you confirmed that Kanno Youko would be doing the music?

At first, we’d just talked about the possibility of her writing a few songs for us. I never thought she’d end up being this intertwined and writing such [wonderfully fitting] music for us. Certainly, [we’ve been happily blessed with her ability to write songs worthy of the star divas of the galaxy].

Had there been plans for the movies when you were planning the TV series?

Since it’s set in space, I’ve always thought that I wanted to bring it to the big screen. However, once it started on TV, [that possibility disappeared into the background]. I thought I’d better concentrate on the TV series first.

With each Macross series, you’ve ambitiously brought in CG here and there, but now, with “Macross Frontier”, you’ve boldly used full CG for the battle scenes, haven’t you?

Since the time of “Macross Zero”, it’s been possible to use something known as ‘Toon Shading (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cel-shaded_animation)’. However, in order to differentiate it from other CG works at the time, I ended up asking Tenjin (Hidetaka) to add texture. With hand-drawn texture, they don’t look like film or photography, nor do they look like CEL-based animation. We produced graphics that looked like ‘package art’. From a technical perspective, it’s easier to gloss over and hide things with CEL-work. I ventured to set the following challenge: [that if we can manipulate this hybrid CG to make it fly, then we can depict dogfights even with the time restrictions of a TV series, and some of the OVA was produced in that way]. Following that, in “Genesis of Aquarion”, some of the actions of the man-made robot ‘Kerenmi’ were made with CG. We spent many long years preparing to be able to realise another Macross TV series.

And that’s why “Macross Frontier” is the first TV series in 13 years.

Technology has also advanced, and the staff have also been honing their skills, so I felt that it would be unsatisfactory if we didn’t just make something better than “Do You Remember Love?” or “Macross Zero”. As a result, the staff gave it their all, and with “Macross F”, we managed to produce [a series with CG that you would never have expected for TV].

p.s. still two-thirds left of this interview to go :heh:

=====

@MichiNekoChan
I'll try to get it done this week sometime. Although maybe a better group will release their version in the meantime!
(btw, I've finally gotten a look at the other major release, and they haven't fixed the major translation problems...orz)

Tak

2011-11-23, 18:46

Is it out of the system yet?? Can we move on???

You know I love you Karice. :D

- Tak

magnuskn

2011-11-23, 19:03

Darthtabby

2011-11-23, 21:58

Are there any differences between what you originally planned and the series that aired on TV in 2008?

The outline has largely remained the same, but in the original plan, Michel’s death occurred in the first half of the series – we made organizational changes like that. What was important about this series, “Macross F”, was the notion of “a school-based story with double heroines”, which we’d never done before. Yoshino Hiroyuki, who was responsible for Series Composition, used to be a school teacher, so ‘school-based stories’ are his specialty. On the music front, building on the past and present, we decided to make one an already established star, the Galactic Fairy, with the other a new girl being promoted.
[

Moving Michael's death to the second half of the series was definitely a good idea -it had more impact that way. Also, is anyone else a bit disturbed by the idea that Hiroyuki Yoshino used to be a teacher given some of the series he's done creative work for? (Macross Frontier is rather tame compared to some of the projects he's been involved in.)

Thess

2011-11-24, 01:00

In most polls, there are both a male & female category, so the answer is yes. In fact, he beat Ranka a few times, much to my amazement. But Thess, this is Macross. If a given singer's popularity does not eclipse that of the pilot... we have a problem :D

Roy has always been more popular than Basara (and Alto and Hikaru!) :heh:

Speaking on Ranka's popularity, I went to search for Sheryl birthday pics in pixiv and looked at the art amassed.

シェリル・ノーム3758
ランカ・リー3542
早乙女アルト1243

(I didn't consider their names alone because sometimes, in Sheryl's case in particular, for instance, there's a lot of Sheryls accounted. Even if I did, Alto can't touch Sheryl's or Ranka's numbers. I wouldn't say her fanbase is small by any rate. Smaller than Sheryl's? DUH).

Thank you, Karice <3

LoveMeKags

2011-11-24, 01:28

More whines about the ending and the "lackluster" main couple?

Puh-leeeaaase.

Predictable but it's getting redundant.

Why people keep sucking on sour grapes is beyond me.

I could say the same for you.:p

Mao totally had a legit chance with Shin and people totally bought into that.

Really now, I don't know if saying Mao had a better shot with Shin in Zero than Ranka had with Alto in the Frontier movies speaks volume as a valid argument.

You completely missed where I said the directors aimed it that way. Just because I add their emotions, I am still meaning towards the people who created the show making their emotions aim that way.

Mao had a fair shot whereas Ranka did not because the footage did not work in her favor ever in the movies. The series, yes; the movies, no. But Zero's footage showed all three characters growing towards one another and then Shin made his choice (even though he had strong affections for both girls). Frontier (the series) showed the same growth but with indecision in the end (from a director's point of view). In the movies, however, they spent 90% of the time building Alto and Sheryl and no Alto and Ranka, therefore the triangle fell apart completely, so why call it "Sayonara no Tsubasa ~ the end of triangle" if there is no triangle? Because Kawamori wanted you to believe there still was.

...

Huh? Outside of the great Cthulhu ( = BleachOD ), who exactly is banned here?

Then maybe they just don't give a fuck about you guys anymore (and bless them).

Rather belated reply but....

I was agreeing with Maggy, but you managed to post before me. (and I didn't bother to edit it ;/)

Of course you were.

Ranka is still more popular than say, Alto Saotome, in general polls there (the movie made him more likable to the general audience. Did he appear in polls before the movie version?). Or as popular as he is in the Macross poll (she beat Misa's popularity, didn't she in the Macross Ace poll?).

However the Alto/Ranka romance indeed isn't as popular as the Sheryl/Alto. In my experience, her fans in Japan prefer her with Brera. So the Kiss in the Galaxy manga was pretty much Kawamori truly approving an official universe that gives Sheryl fans and Ranka fans the happy endings they wanted (with that hinted double wedding).

Agreed.

Ranka is more popular and is easily one of the most lovable characters (for her introduced personality in Ep.1). Alto, however, is more like a female than a male in looks, so therefore they'd be better judging him on a female poll. He also doesn't have a strong personality that people like. If there's something consistent about Macross, it's that people aren't really attached to the male character trapped in the triangle (Hikaru, Shin, and Alto).

As for Alto/Ranka romance, not a lot of people want to admit that they support her. I think the shame of Ep.24-25 brought a lot of people down. I know it did for me. I didn't want them to harm her character like that but Yoshino sunk to the lowest form of hell there is for Ranka... honestly, the lengths they go to just to make you wanna like Sheryl, it disgusts me.

BaKaBaKaOtaKu

2011-11-24, 01:40

@karice67:

thanks for these stuff. ==))

Thess

2011-11-24, 01:43

As for Alto/Ranka romance, not a lot of people want to admit that they support her. I think the shame of Ep.24-25 brought a lot of people down. I know it did for me. I didn't want them to harm her character like that but Yoshino sunk to the lowest form of hell there is for Ranka... honestly, the lengths they go to just to make you wanna like Sheryl, it disgusts me.

You realize that Yoshino and Kawamori both are Sheryl fans (as in character)? Kawamori said he liked Sheryl over Ranka, but Grace was his favorite girl (which explains her changed role in the movies since he scripted those to sneak a redemption arc and more nude scenes :heh:), Yoshino obviously loves Sheryl. I don't know if he ever did an interview, but his own MF manga should be testament for it.

I'm speaking about Ranka's Japanese fanbase. They have always been very open they like wincest-siscon end or Yuri over Alto. That's why the official fanservice with Ranka mostly involves Sheryl or Brera and very rarely Alto (unless it's a Triangle shot).

MichiNekoChan

2011-11-24, 01:58

LMK - I'm just gonna assume you're being sarcastic... So we don't start a debate over my OWN words.

Karice - Thanks for all the hard work!

LoveMeKags

2011-11-24, 02:37

You realize that Yoshino and Kawamori both are Sheryl fans (as in character)? Kawamori said he liked Sheryl over Ranka, but Grace was his favorite girl (which explains her changed role in the movies since he scripted those to sneak a redemption arc and more nude scenes :heh:), Yoshino obviously loves Sheryl. I don't know if he ever did an interview, but his own MF manga should be testament for it.

I'm speaking about Ranka's Japanese fanbase. They have always been very open they like wincest-siscon end or Yuri over Alto. That's why the official fanservice with Ranka mostly involves Sheryl or Brera and very rarely Alto (unless it's a Triangle shot).

And what I'm saying is that they did everything possible to destroy a character they created just to make you love another. I was totally disgusted by that. Sorry, but I refuse to love Sheryl because creators felt she needed to be a saint.

And I doubt that they really want Ranka with herself - that's a Sheryl only thing to me. Now, with Brera, most fans only like them to be brother and sister (or friends) and very rarely do they hit romance. I mean, 90% of them are not into Ore no Imouto now; so I doubt that. But her with Sheryl, that's a given, since most of the time, two main female leads are always drawn together. I can name many anime fanbases where the fans pair the two female leads up in fanarts, even to the point of romance. But there are quite a lot of Alto/Ranka fanart out there, enough to make at least twelve dozen books, and thensome if we include fics and doujins; so it's not like they aren't popular, it's just that people don't really want to publish work about them only to be bashed. A lot of people out there want you to praise their work for how they wrote, drew, or portrayed it; not because you hate or dislike the couple, and nowadays, people don't give a shit about that anymore; so they'd rather keep their work to themselves. Hell, even I have ten amvs and twenty fanfics that I keep to myself without publishing because I'd rather have people tell me how my writing style has improved instead of wasting a review or comment telling me how they hated the couple.

People don't know what a back button is anymore either...

LMK - I'm just gonna assume you're being sarcastic... So we don't start a debate over my OWN words.

I was being sarcastic. For once someone noticed without me having to state it outwardly. Thank you, Michi.:D

Thess

2011-11-24, 02:42

LMK - I'm just gonna assume you're being sarcastic... So we don't start a debate over my OWN words.

I was going to say... Alto seems smitten with Sheryl since the beginning. The only thing that keeps him from spit it out is that is she a spy-is-she-not angsty subplot. And then the whole she's sucked into other space and seemly KIA (by this point is pretty clear Alto loves Sheryl. They had the Michel/Klan scene. It was identical: Sheryl dramatically pulling a heroic sacrifice and sucked into space then Alto grimly keeps the memento around his neck). This was before he remembers their first meeting, so it's just a cherry on top for the shippers of the pairing I guess. In fact, he confesses before knowing if she loves him. :heh:

It's easy to fall for Sheryl: charming, hot superstar who he hits off rather well?

Now Sheryl falling for someone like Alto and showing that cute side of hers sooner needed a push to cram many episodes development in two movies (and the time between them- three months or so?).

And I doubt that they really want Ranka with herself - that's a Sheryl only thing to me. Now, with Brera, most fans only like them to be brother and sister (or friends) and very rarely do they hit romance.

Uh, no it's supported as romantic. There's a stronger Brera/Ranka fanbase than Alto/Ranka one. It doesn't mean the last one is super unpopular but it dwarfed compared to Brera/Ranka or Sheryl/Alto. Wasn't an official Christmas' eve spread (a holiday which is mostly regarded as romantic and coupleish in Japan) featuring Sheryl+Alto and Brera+Ranka as if in a double date in an amusement park?

And of course, Kiss in the Galaxy. Mangaka supports and gives goodies to the fans of those two and Ranka/Sheryl (with nurse Sheryl and her patient Ranka ;) ).

Yuri's a given.

BetoJR

2011-11-24, 04:37

Some of you guys seem to forget the huge bias japanese anime/manga/games have for incest. I mean, in an industry that gives us stuff like Yosuga no Sora, Aki Sora and lots of others, what is there to be surprised about?

Also, the triangle is over. Boo-fucking-hoo. Some people will never get over it, will they?

raile

2011-11-24, 04:46

Uh, no it's supported as romantic. There's a stronger Brera/Ranka fanbase than Alto/Ranka one. It doesn't mean the last one is super unpopular but it dwarfed compared to Brera/Ranka or Sheryl/Alto. Wasn't an official Christmas' eve spread (a holiday which is mostly regarded as romantic and coupleish in Japan) featuring Sheryl+Alto and Brera+Ranka as if in a double date in an amusement park?

Don't forget, the fans made THIS (http://brerananthology.web.fc2.com/index-2.html), opposite to an Alto/Sheryl anthology. If that's not proof, I dunno what is.

@Beto, the way we always have to go back to the triangle...I don't think so.

magnuskn

2011-11-24, 05:00

Then maybe they just don't give a fuck about you guys anymore (and bless them).

Oh, bless them, indeed. My mental health is so much better these days, for lack of all that inane Ranka blather. Well, almost all inane Ranka blater...

LoveMeKags

2011-11-24, 05:25

I was going to say... Alto seems smitten with Sheryl since the beginning. The only thing that keeps him from spit it out is that is she a spy-is-she-not angsty subplot. And then the whole she's sucked into other space and seemly KIA (by this point is pretty clear Alto loves Sheryl. They had the Michel/Klan scene. It was identical: Sheryl dramatically pulling a heroic sacrifice and sucked into space then Alto grimly keeps the memento around his neck). This was before he remembers their first meeting, so it's just a cherry on top for the shippers of the pairing I guess. In fact, he confesses before knowing if she loves him. :heh:

It's easy to fall for Sheryl: charming, hot superstar who he hits off rather well?

She's a pain in the ass, and that goes without saying anymore.:rolleyes:

You can say all you want about what you think of the scene, but Kawamori made it very clear that the first movie barely showed progression towards Alto and Sheryl being "smitten" with each other.

Now Sheryl falling for someone like Alto and showing that cute side of hers sooner needed a push to cram many episodes development in two movies (and the time between them- three months or so?).

Sheryl was never cute in the series. That was a trait she gained from Ranka, which is why I really disliked her movie self; because Ranka is the moe character and now Sheryl wants to act like her because everything else wasn't enough? I'm sorry to say this, but Sheryl is not cute. Perhaps she could become "soft" but she shouldn't become "cute." It is not her character.

Uh, no it's supported as romantic. There's a stronger Brera/Ranka fanbase than Alto/Ranka one. It doesn't mean the last one is super unpopular but it dwarfed compared to Brera/Ranka or Sheryl/Alto. Wasn't an official Christmas' eve spread (a holiday which is mostly regarded as romantic and coupleish in Japan) featuring Sheryl+Alto and Brera+Ranka as if in a double date in an amusement park?

I said most don't support the romantic side, and with good reason too. Brera and Ranka are brother and sister, and the most people do is maybe give hints or kisses. If you look at most Pixiv art just as a reference, most of the art there gives implications towards romance but doesn't go further. A kiss on the cheek, lips, or hug are most common.

Why are we discussing official art when your argument was about unofficial art?

Some of you guys seem to forget the huge bias japanese anime/manga/games have for incest. I mean, in an industry that gives us stuff like Yosuga no Sora, Aki Sora and lots of others, what is there to be surprised about?

I watched Yosuga no Sora and liked it, mostly because I could see how different the brother and sister were towards each other in a couple type manner.

But a lot of incest is mostly created by either people who have similar situations or ones who don't have a close net family and desire attention from their significant other (brother or sister). And the same works for parents too. It is rare for someone with a normal life (and normal relationship) to write incest and get it published. The mere thought disgusts people in that situation, so all of the shows you described above are from these people.

Macross Frontier doesn't relate.

Also, the triangle is over. Boo-fucking-hoo. Some people will never get over it, will they?

Isn't that what keeps Macross alive?:D

Oh, bless them, indeed. My mental health is so much better these days, for lack of all that inane Ranka blather. Well, almost all inane Ranka blater...

Hey, you guys are the ones who asked for their opinions. You wanted to know where they went, I gave an answer. The least you could do is say "oh, okay, that's fine then." But once again, you bash us AruRan fans even when they aren't here...

Really now, be civil.

BetoJR

2011-11-24, 07:37

But a lot of incest is mostly created by either people who have similar situations or ones who don't have a close net family and desire attention from their significant other (brother or sister). And the same works for parents too. It is rare for someone with a normal life (and normal relationship) to write incest and get it published. The mere thought disgusts people in that situation, so all of the shows you described above are from these people.
Yeah, I see what you... Wait, WHAT? That's a sweeping, biased and prejudiced over-generalization if I ever saw one. Maybe we should drop this?

Isn't that what keeps Macross alive?:D
I'd think it's the singing, the mechas and the rousing stories of romance amidst wars, but that's just me. :D

cheesie

2011-11-24, 08:16

Hey, you guys are the ones who asked for their opinions. You wanted to know where they went, I gave an answer. The least you could do is say "oh, okay, that's fine then." But once again, you bash us AruRan fans even when they aren't here...

Really now, be civil.

People here do love a good discussion, be it Arusherri, Aruran, Mecha pr0n and Kawamori, though I don't think this can be said for people who thinks a good 'debate' is pulling stuff out of their asses and expect to be humored.

I do think you're quite the interesting person when you're not doing that, and your passion for your ship rivals that of Harmony shippers, I'll give you that. But let's not indulge in victim mentality here, people aren't bashing your posts because it's Aruran slanted, but that you put so little thought and care into preparing your posts and, 90% of the time, follow it up with "What I mean is..." with more ramblings to come. Declaring stupid statements, hurling out emotionally charged shipping Livejournal-standard rants, and then being utterly unprepared to be challenged, are a few examples, if you're wondering.

You have some very interesting ideas, some ripe for interesting conversations, but then you overshadow them with your tendency to ramble whimsically and play the Word of God, and then it's hello, Facepalm.

So anyway. Aruran fans? We love Aruran fans. Heck, you know what? I bloody miss them. They're awesome people. Sir Dex-kun is the long lost seme with a taste for angsty, shoujo heroines like Tak. Mei19, with her infuriating bolded trolls rose up to near top of my list just for her love for JGS, bless her heart. We haven't seen Ani_D, but she does have a thing for Westlo before he moved onto justavisitor while cheating on Nat, because he has a thing for Strange People.

Some had gracefully conceded and moved on when Aruran ship lost, as seen earlier, and this makes them more of a champ than one who spent nine months frothing in rage when official franchise refuse to validate their fanfiction.

--

I am sad that my harem has graduated, but I will be in my hobo cave regardless, for I know they will return to me, the Lady Cheese one day. *sips tea*

magnuskn

2011-11-24, 08:19

Yeah, I miss Dex.

karice67

2011-11-24, 08:55

+1 for missing Dex :(

You know I love you Karice. :D

- TakI was going to ask what it was you did that resulted in your disappearance last week...but now, I'm just going to assume it was セクハラ :p

Moving Michael's death to the second half of the series was definitely a good idea -it had more impact that way. Oh yes. I was upset for a good few weeks after I first saw that episode. Especially since I'd effectively marathoned the series up til that point...

Also, is anyone else a bit disturbed by the idea that Hiroyuki Yoshino used to be a teacher given some of the series he's done creative work for? (Macross Frontier is rather tame compared to some of the projects he's been involved in.)Personally, I just went..."oh, so that's why we had episode 8. And all the high-school hijinks in Code Geass..." But I've worked in a Japanese high school too...and I'm not too fussed, to be honest.

An interesting revelation from one of Yoshino's interviews (I can't quite remember which one - might be the one in the Complete Book, or perhaps the one in the fanbook, as those are the two I've skimmed recently...), however, reveals that Kawamori might be the one that everyone has to rein in. IIRC (don't quote me on this yet!), the advice/encouragement that Ohnogi apparently gave to Yoshino upon the latter's induction into Macross at the planning stage of Frontier was something like 'good luck reining Kawamori in'!

=====

p.s. To all of you whom this concerns: you're welcome :). Although...whilst I do like being thanked, I definitely like fun discussions a fair bit more. You know, stuff that will help us avoid certain topics that have gone round and round in circles. Like...doesn't anyone want to talk about what the next major Macross project will be and what technological developments (if any) they might have to attain before Kawamori will set it in motion?

Of course, maybe that doesn't quite fit in this thread...

Yot-chan

2011-11-24, 09:13

Don't forget, the fans made THIS (http://brerananthology.web.fc2.com/index-2.html), opposite to an Alto/Sheryl anthology. If that's not proof, I dunno what is.

There are also quite a few Nanas doujinshis out there. Is that proof that Nanase is extremely popular...? Or just proof of the fact that there's a little something for everybody in the show?

vivitoru

2011-11-24, 10:00

There are also quite a few Nanas doujinshis out there. Is that proof that Nanase is extremely popular...?
It's proof that she fulfilled her role as the busty doujinshi material. You're right, I guess there really is something for everybody in Frontier.

magnuskn

2011-11-24, 10:22

LOL at your icon, vivi. :D

Yot-chan

2011-11-24, 10:33

It's proof that she fulfilled her role as the busty doujinshi material. You're right, I guess there really is something for everybody in Frontier.

Well...that wasn't really my point, but I think you're helping answer it. Clearly, there are a lot of Nanase doujinshi out there. Clearly, not everyone who likes Macross Frontier likes Nanase. Not even a majority of pople who like Frontier like Nanase.

And yet...as I said...there's a ton of doujinshi out there about her.

So if Raile's saying that some fan-made productions are proof of what the majority of fans want...well, I find that logic lacking.

Tak

2011-11-24, 11:11

I'm just going to assume it was セクハラ :p

I couldn't help it Karice, you left yourself wide open :naughty:

- Tak

raile

2011-11-24, 11:25

vivitoru

2011-11-24, 11:26

Maybe fan-made productions aren't always representative of what the majority of the fanbase want and we as Alto/Sheryl shippers have just been blessed with quite the active circles.

But when doujin circles aren't drawing Alto/Ranka either because the couple isn't that appealing to them or they don't think it'll sell enough, and yet they take the time to draw a Brera/Ranka anthology (or yet another Brera/Ranka doujin), I think there is some truth in that statement.

At least I didn't see many, Alto/Ranka doujins pop out even after the second movie release.

Of course this is just an opinion as well, since I'm not there to run an actual observational study on the matter.

@ Magnus the untold truth about Alto's motivation!

magnuskn

2011-11-24, 11:37

@ Magnus the untold truth about Alto's motivation!

I guess being loyal, dependable and so on is also what a typical hipster will be? :p

Hollowgolem

2011-11-24, 11:42

I'm glad I came to this thread on the day of Thanksgiving in America.

Just like in real life, I get to witness a dysfunctional but beloved family goofing around.

Also, I hope all that Brera/Ranka stuff is just supposed to be about the acquisition of the sibling relationship of which they were both robbed. Otherwise, squick.

Yot-chan

2011-11-24, 12:10

All I did was shatter LMK's fervent illusions that not a lot of fans support any incestuous subtext between Ranka and Brera, and that it's only looked at with platonic family love. :p

Is that so wrong?

(No, not to me.)
Even that seems to be a pretty unsafe conclusion. Surely, there are some people out there who are Ranka/Brera fans. But none of us know if it's a lot or a few.

Stating unsupportable assumptions is not the way to go here...fighting fire with fire doesn't work.

darkplataform

2011-11-24, 12:51

Outside the fans realm, I fail to see the loop-side against Ranka.

Also,

http://p-bandai.jp/fashion-net/character/macrossf/item-1000014063/
http://bandai.hs.llnwd.net/e1/bc/images/shop_top_bandai-fashion-net/20111122_sheryl_712x405.jpg

BetoJR

2011-11-24, 13:34

Wow. What are those other things, besides the earring?

Thess

2011-11-24, 14:23

An interesting revelation from one of Yoshino's interviews (I can't quite remember which one - might be the one in the Complete Book, or perhaps the one in the fanbook, as those are the two I've skimmed recently...), however, reveals that Kawamori might be the one that everyone has to rein in. IIRC (don't quote me on this yet!), the advice/encouragement that Ohnogi apparently gave to Yoshino upon the latter's induction into Macross at the planning stage of Frontier was something like 'good luck reining Kawamori in'!

So that's where the Ohnogi connection came from! :heh:

If we take Kawamori's word, then the second movie is closer to his original scenario? So yeah, Yoshino did reign in a lot.

Outside the fans realm, I fail to see the loop-side against Ranka.

Also,

http://p-bandai.jp/fashion-net/character/macrossf/item-1000014063/
http://bandai.hs.llnwd.net/e1/bc/images/shop_top_bandai-fashion-net/20111122_sheryl_712x405.jpg

Pretty! And probably expensive. :uhoh:

magnuskn

2011-11-24, 16:14

Outside the fans realm, I fail to see the loop-side against Ranka.

What exactly is a "loop-side"?

darkplataform

2011-11-24, 18:20

magnuskn

2011-11-24, 18:26

@magnusk: i really should double-check online translators, uh? :heh:

It was nothing special, just about LMK theory that creators had a bias against Ranka in the movies, something that most of us dont agree.

Well, if you say "bias" in the term of "will lose in the romance", they had a bias against her. If you say "bias" meaning "got a super-improvement over her series self, to the point that she was completely without any sorts of personality flaws", that's also true. :D

magnuskn

2011-11-24, 18:59

I'm glad I came to this thread on the day of Thanksgiving in America.

Just like in real life, I get to witness a dysfunctional but beloved family goofing around.

BTW, that really warmed my heart. Thanks! I, too, am quite happy with our forum community and the people who make it up.

Thess

2011-11-24, 19:49

@magnusk: i really should double-check online translators, uh? :heh:

It was nothing special, just about LMK theory that creators had a bias against Ranka in the movies, something that most of us dont agree.

I for one, never understood how come someone earnestly believed Ranka was going to officially 'win' the triangle since the beginning. I took a look a characters design and knew the pink haired one was going to get "chosen". This isn't the same as liking Ranka/Alto (I admit I've enjoyed the pairing potential a lot in movieverse), I can understand how someone would ship the pairing (or any pairing for that matter).

LoveMeKags

2011-11-24, 23:55

All I did was shatter LMK's fervent illusions that not a lot of fans support any incestuous subtext between Ranka and Brera, and that it's only looked at with platonic family love. :p

Shatter? Hardly.

I see more fanarts for Brera/Sheryl than Brera/Ranka that are otherwise romantic or even go to so far as sexual. Most people just like Brera and Ranka together because siblings are usually very happy (unless they have a bad relationship with each other).

But when doujin circles aren't drawing Alto/Ranka either because the couple isn't that appealing to them or they don't think it'll sell enough, and yet they take the time to draw a Brera/Ranka anthology (or yet another Brera/Ranka doujin), I think there is some truth in that statement.

Actually, it's more about the money. And unless you have proof, I don't think Alto/Ranka fans drew that Brera/Ranka anthology. That's something that is unproven. I've kept up with all the Alto/Ranka circles or artists and haven't seen any of them show interest in the anthology (nor participate in it).

It was nothing special, just about LMK theory that creators had a bias against Ranka in the movies, something that most of us dont agree.

It is true. It is like saying she's the main character but playings a supporting role instead. That is what Ranka is in the movies. She has little scenes where she actually is a character (gives background history or shows growth) and barely is allowed to play the heroine. Meanwhile, Sheryl steals the spotlight and becomes the "messiah." That being said, both girls are supposed to be the main characters (along with Alto) but one overshadowing the other was obvious from the get-go which is why I'm disgusted with the movies. Even Alto was overshadowed by Sheryl.

Well, if you say "bias" in the term of "will lose in the romance", they had a bias against her. If you say "bias" meaning "got a super-improvement over her series self, to the point that she was completely without any sorts of personality flaws", that's also true. :D

You fail to even prove a point when I'm not only talking about romance but character in general.

She's a strong character in the movies but you don't get to see that growth much due to her small screen time. They should've given her more scenes to show that growth they gave her. Sure, they gave her some scenes, but as usual in the movies, Sheryl was shown the most and dominated the screen, story, and plot, even the ending (not to mention the Nyan Nyan Final Attack and Sayonara no Tsubasa had more vocals by May'n than Nakajima as proof).

Really now... no proof? I think not.

It was obvious point blank from the beginning 30mins of the 1st movie that Sheryl was going to be the point of interest. Hell, she even arrives at a scene that was just Alto and Ranka (GRIFFITH PARK).

The roles went like such:
Alto = main character
Sheryl = main character
Ranka = main character but plays supporting role

Honestly, it was obvious, even to those who weren't interested in the romance section. Just look at how many reviews there are for both movies. They stated it too.

I for one, never understood how come someone earnestly believed Ranka was going to officially 'win' the triangle since the beginning. I took a look a characters design and knew the pink haired one was going to get "chosen". This isn't the same as liking Ranka/Alto (I admit I've enjoyed the pairing potential a lot in movieverse), I can understand how someone would ship the pairing (or any pairing for that matter).

First, all you did was look at a character and decide they were going to win?:eyebrow:

Now I understand why you ship the two girls over any with Alto. It's not about their personality, it's about sexuality.

I looked at Ranka's design, then I watched her, I watched the first episode before deciding who I'd support to the end. After her first impression with Alto, I was hooked on her because her personality was open and embracing, something I like in characters. So I picked her.

It's not about "design" but rather "personality" that I looked at.

And whether or not Ranka was going to "win," I didn't really follow that "watch weekly" thing if you recall. I watched all the episodes in one lump. And I still saw Alto and Ranka as a viable pairing in the end. From the way they communicated in the scenes they did get and to the way Alto was happy and content with her over others, really showed how close net they were. I honestly enjoyed all the good and bad times and cared less that she was always the damsel in distress because at least she was a better one than past characters (she didn't get killed or injured). I also enjoyed the cute moments and implied romantic moments, especially the date in the movie. But also, most of all, I enjoyed her personality over any character in the show. She has a way to show up on screen (especially in the early episodes) and screw up to make you laugh. Sometimes, I think she even does it on purpose. There are endearing things about her personality that people often fail to see, but most of all, her smile has a tendency to make you forget why you were mad at all in the first place.

And that's why I picked her as the love triangle winner.

Why'd you pick Sheryl? Because you thought she looked good from the designs? Because you overlooked she had a harsh attitude and was as closed off as a girl's locked diary? Because you thought she was hot?

That's the most shallow way to pick a character.

I usually watch at least three episodes before picking a character and I watch their personalities. You state you did not do this. Therefore, a shallow decision was made.

teelatsuki

2011-11-25, 00:35

First, all you did was look at a character and decide they were going to win?:eyebrow:

It's just how anime rolls, you pretty much can tell this things at first glance, if they both looked the same age or "legal" if you prefer, it would have been harder.

Now I understand why you ship the two girls over any with Alto. It's not about their personality, it's about sexuality.

I looked at Ranka's design, then I watched her, I watched the first episode before deciding who I'd support to the end. After her first impression with Alto, I was hooked on her because her personality was open and embracing, something I like in characters. So I picked her.

Since the damn first episode? really? you decided, since episode one, who to support to the bloody end? I will not talk about your personal tastes because Ranka does gives a really good first impression but...

It's not about "design" but rather "personality" that I looked at.

And whether or not Ranka was going to "win," I didn't really follow that "watch weekly" thing if you recall. I watched all the episodes in one lump. And I still saw Alto and Ranka as a viable pairing in the end. From the way they communicated in the scenes they did get and to the way Alto was happy and content with her over others, really showed how close net they were. I honestly enjoyed all the good and bad times and cared less that she was always the damsel in distress because at least she was a better one than past characters (she didn't get killed or injured). I also enjoyed the cute moments and implied romantic moments, especially the date in the movie. But also, most of all, I enjoyed her personality over any character in the show. She has a way to show up on screen (especially in the early episodes) and screw up to make you laugh. Sometimes, I think she even does it on purpose. There are endearing things about her personality that people often fail to see, but most of all, her smile has a tendency to make you forget why you were mad at all in the first place.

Now she didn't get hurt but other people DID, and because they were protecting her, some even DIED, also series Ranka never tryed to help herself when in danger no matter how pointless or sucessful her attemps could be, she only screamed for help (movieRanka actually tries to rescue herself or help); Whenever Ranka screwed up i felt embarassed, it really was dumb.

And that's why I picked her as the love triangle winner.

And then proceded to ignore that your view was fanon.

Why'd you pick Sheryl? Because you thought she looked good from the designs? Because you overlooked she had a harsh attitude and was as closed off as a girl's locked diary? Because you thought she was hot?

That's the most shallow way to pick a character.

Now I picked Sheryl because she didn't want to be a damsel in distress, she wanted to keep herself strong and her motto was to do whatever was in her hands to help; I found that pretty damn impresive because that doesn't happen a lot in anime, most girls that say that tend to be a damsel in distress to the very end but sheryl actually lived to that words ,I liked Sheryl since episode 7 but after Galia 4, She became my absolute favorite character.

I don't think my reasons are shallow.

Also you probably want to check what character development is.

I usually watch at least three episodes before picking a character and I watch their personalities. You state you did not do this. Therefore, a shallow decision was made.

But just 7 paragraphs above you said that you picked since the first episode, I did wait a lot and I watched it weekly.

LoveMeKags

2011-11-25, 01:07

It's just how anime rolls, you pretty much can tell this things at first glance, if they both looked the same age or "legal" if you prefer, it would have been harder.

First, wasn't talking to you, see that the quotes were for Thess, not you; so honestly, I could care less.

Since the damn first episode? really? you decided, since episode one, who to support to the bloody end? I will not talk about your personal tastes because Ranka does gives a really good first impression but...

Yes. But that was after I'd really gotten to see Ranka talk. The first ten or so minutes, she said hardly anything and came off as a quiet, non-sociable character like Rei from Neon Gensis Evangelion. Then she made this large impression (by far the most substantial one in the series) by inviting Alto into her life just because he helped her slightly. That "come by Nyan-Nyan and ask for me sometime" was her biggest impression on him and intrigued him.

That was when I picked to support Ranka.

Unlike Thess, who picked Sheryl based on her design (ie: her sexuality or build).

Now she didn't get hurt but other people DID, and because they were protecting her, some even DIED, also series Ranka never tryed to help herself when in danger no matter how pointless or sucessful her attemps could be, she only screamed for help (movieRanka actually tries to rescue herself or help); Whenever Ranka screwed up i felt embarassed, it really was dumb.

Why you choose to single that out of all the other things I said just proves how little you read of it. The point I was trying to make with the "didn't get hurt" was that most damsel in distresses carry out their duty and get themselves (along with everyone else) killed. Ranka didn't get herself killed. And up until E20-21, E24-25, Ranka never got anyone killed. She was not responsible for E14 at all, since no one aboard Frontier was aware Ranka had been kidnapped until Alto told them. So therefore, no one was risking their life beforehand besides Alto, Michael, and Sheryl. And she didn't sing, so the Vajra weren't influenced by her song (I don't count the end because there was no proof her song did anything due to Brera breaking in suddenly).

And then proceded to ignore that your view was fanon.

It isn't fanon. The fact remains that there are romantic or insinuating moments for Alto/Ranka, meaning that Kawamori is prepared for you to ship either way, that is what shipping is. It's not fanon if there is evidence to prove the relationship could've gone somewhere.

That's like saying Hikaru/Minmei is fanon although there were date scenes, kisses, and a fake wedding to prove that Kawamori was willing to ship that way but preferred the other over it. Doesn't make it fanon. It just makes it a path in their (Alto and Hikaru) romantic lives.

The only way it would be fanon was if there was no real support for Alto/Ranka. Are there pictures? Yes. Are there scenes with them together? Yes. Are there kiss scenes? One, so yes. Is there blushing in the scenes? Yes. Is there a rejection? Yes.

So you see, it's not fanon. It is supported but not preferred.

And it is also an official pairing if you look at the fact a triangle in Macross has to create two official pairings: Alto/Sheryl and Alto/Ranka, otherwise the word "triangle" would have no meaning.

Now I picked Sheryl because she didn't want to be a damsel in distress, she wanted to keep herself strong and her motto was to do whatever was in her hands to help; I found that pretty damn impresive because that doesn't happen a lot in anime, most girls that say that tend to be a damsel in distress to the very end but sheryl actually lived to that words ,I liked Sheryl since episode 7 but after Galia 4, She became my absolute favorite character.

That's your choice.

I disliked the fact that she wasn't realistic. All the things you put above prove my point with how unrealistic she is. I choose to support characters who are human. Sheryl being this "goddess," "messiah," and "saint" she's made out to be just proves my point. That's not the kind of girl I'd support in the love triangle.

I supported Misa more than I ever did her. And I supported Minmei. But most of all, I supported characters who came off as realistic. I didn't quite support Basara because his going onto the battlefield and never once being killed wasn't realistic, and he had little to no character growth; so I never supported him. But, Mylene, I supported a bit, because she had potential to grow, but I never saw much in her.

Sheryl just started out as a rude person and grew into an unrealistic saint. No girl is that perfect. If you choose to support a character that's that unrealistic, then you have self-esteem issues. You're viewing the character as someone you aspire to be. You're no different than Ranka.

I don't think my reasons are shallow.

They are.

Also you probably want to check what character development is.

Once again, Thess proclaimed to have picked Sheryl based on her body structure (which is what "design" means). This argument had nothing to do with "character development" other than my saying why I picked Ranka: for her personality.

But just 7 paragraphs above you said that you picked since the first episode, I did wait a lot and I watched it weekly.

I said usually, which means on other anime.

I usually watch three episodes before picking (like with SDF) a character to support.

I waited at least half the series of SDF before I picked Misa to support romantically and Minmei as a standalone. I waited one episode to support Basara (cause I knew immediately who she'd pick inwardly:heh:). I had trouble deciding with Zero. But I'd already picked Isamu as my favorite character even if he would've lost (yahoo!!!:D). Hell, I supported Focker. (Why'd you die, Roy!? *cries*)

I don't normally enter a series and become so moved by a character's first impression like I did Ranka. Hell, even female characters I used to like don't compare to her Nyan-Nyan dance and his reaction. I was hooked on her personality and actions right from the get-go. She's just a normal teenager.

raile

2011-11-25, 01:14

LoveMeKags

2011-11-25, 01:16

Wow, self-esteem issues..?

This coming from a teenager throwing a tantrum just because the FICTIONAL underdog character she supported didn't win the guy in the end.

My mind is blown.

Just proves I have no problems stating I'm human, unlike Sheryl fans. I can easily state "yes, I have problems, I have issues." But I'm not gonna stand here and say "I'm perfect and that's how you should always remember me" like Sheryl.

I am a Ranka fan and proud to say "I'm human, deal with it. I make mistakes and learn from them. It doesn't all happen overnight or in a year, but gradually. So don't judge what you see today because tomorrow might be when I shine.";)

raile

2011-11-25, 01:22

LMK.

We all know you HATE Sheryl and you're still sore and can't let go or accept the fact that your princess didn't win the triangle.

But if you're going to continue this nonsense, put it in a relevant character thread or something.

---

So guys, what did you think of Leon's balls in this movie? :p

Darthtabby

2011-11-25, 01:25

I'm pretty sure what Thess was saying is that he could tell Sheryl was going to win the love triangle based on her character design...

Also LMK quite frankly I think you're letting your rage dominate and distort your view of events. I've seen it happen before in anime fandom and I do not think it makes for good analysis.

Yunbo

2011-11-25, 01:27

It was obvious point blank from the beginning 30mins of the 1st movie that Sheryl was going to be the point of interest. Hell, she even arrives at a scene that was just Alto and Ranka (GRIFFITH PARK).

The roles went like such:
Alto = main character
Sheryl = main character
Ranka = main character but plays supporting role

But aren't like 99% of the anime love triangles always like this? You always can tell which 2 are the main characters and which isn't.

I always thought that Ranka had the upper hand in the triangle in the first movie. :/

Tak

2011-11-25, 01:29

So guys, what did you think of Leon's balls in this movie? :p

They dropped... literally.

I'm pretty sure what Thess was saying is that he could tell Sheryl was going to win the love triangle based on her character design...

What I do know, is that when I saw her wardrobe... it was obvious to me a lot of care and attention had been paid to the character. The rest... well, its history.

- Tak

raile

2011-11-25, 01:41

They dropped... literally.

- Tak

I'm not surprised with the way he was always holding and rubbing them. :D

Tak

2011-11-25, 01:45

I'm not surprised with the way he was always holding and rubbing them. :D

And nothing came out of it! :heh:

- Tak

MichiNekoChan

2011-11-25, 01:48

haha oh lord. I think Leons creepiness was really amped up in the 2nd movie. I'm glad they kept out any... uhhh... "romantic" scenes of him and Lucas sister. http://50.imagebam.com/download/pC1KrL0F6fwi6vEI8Wjvng/16002/160017399/th_puke.gif

justinstrife

2011-11-25, 01:52

But aren't like 99% of the anime love triangles always like this? You always can tell which 2 are the main characters and which isn't.

I always thought that Ranka had the upper hand in the triangle in the first movie. :/

There are very few anime that have love triangles, where you can't pick out the winner at almost first glance.

Kimi ga nozomu Eien, Kimagure Orange Road, kimikiss, Touch, and many others that I could name off, that start out in a way that are easy to predict the final pairings. From the first few minutes no less.

Tak

2011-11-25, 01:56

haha oh lord. I think Leons creepiness was really amped up in the 2nd movie. I'm glad they kept out any... uhhh... "romantic" scenes of him and Lucas sister. :twitch:

wheres a barf emote when you need it?

Romantic? THAT WAS BLATANT RAPE!! When watermelon went down with Kathy in the series... I think something died inside of me.

- Tak

raile

2011-11-25, 01:56

Watermelon? You mean mushroom. :p

Tak

2011-11-25, 01:59

Kimi ga nozomu Eien, Kimagure Orange Road, kimikiss, Touch, and many others that I could name off, that start out in a way that are easy to predict the final pairings. From the first few minutes no less.

And I rooted for Motoko in Love Hina... although I knew she was going to lose. Fortunately, losing a prediction has yet to cause an averse health effect...

Watermelon? You mean mushroom. :p

Oh wait, you are right... I actually like watermelons.

- Tak

teelatsuki

2011-11-25, 02:16

Yes. But that was after I'd really gotten to see Ranka talk. The first ten or so minutes, she said hardly anything and came off as a quiet, non-sociable character like Rei from Neon Gensis Evangelion. Then she made this large impression (by far the most substantial one in the series) by inviting Alto into her life just because he helped her slightly. That "come by Nyan-Nyan and ask for me sometime" was her biggest impression on him and intrigued him.

That was when I picked to support Ranka.

Unlike Thess, who picked Sheryl based on her design (ie: her sexuality or build).

Why you choose to single that out of all the other things I said just proves how little you read of it. The point I was trying to make with the "didn't get hurt" was that most damsel in distresses carry out their duty and get themselves (along with everyone else) killed. Ranka didn't get herself killed. And up until E20-21, E24-25, Ranka never got anyone killed. She was not responsible for E14 at all, since no one aboard Frontier was aware Ranka had been kidnapped until Alto told them. So therefore, no one was risking their life beforehand besides Alto, Michael, and Sheryl. And she didn't sing, so the Vajra weren't influenced by her song (I don't count the end because there was no proof her song did anything due to Brera breaking in suddenly).

It isn't fanon. The fact remains that there are romantic or insinuating moments for Alto/Ranka, meaning that Kawamori is prepared for you to ship either way, that is what shipping is. It's not fanon if there is evidence to prove the relationship could've gone somewhere.

That's like saying Hikaru/Minmei is fanon although there were date scenes, kisses, and a fake wedding to prove that Kawamori was willing to ship that way but preferred the other over it. Doesn't make it fanon. It just makes it a path in their (Alto and Hikaru) romantic lives.

The only way it would be fanon was if there was no real support for Alto/Ranka. Are there pictures? Yes. Are there scenes with them together? Yes. Are there kiss scenes? One, so yes. Is there blushing in the scenes? Yes. Is there a rejection? Yes.

So you see, it's not fanon. It is supported but not preferred.

And it is also an official pairing if you look at the fact a triangle in Macross has to create two official pairings: Alto/Sheryl and Alto/Ranka, otherwise the word "triangle" would have no meaning.

That's your choice.

I disliked the fact that she wasn't realistic. All the things you put above prove my point with how unrealistic she is. I choose to support characters who are human. Sheryl being this "goddess," "messiah," and "saint" she's made out to be just proves my point. That's not the kind of girl I'd support in the love triangle.

I supported Misa more than I ever did her. And I supported Minmei. But most of all, I supported characters who came off as realistic. I didn't quite support Basara because his going onto the battlefield and never once being killed wasn't realistic, and he had little to no character growth; so I never supported him. But, Mylene, I supported a bit, because she had potential to grow, but I never saw much in her.

Sheryl just started out as a rude person and grew into an unrealistic saint. No girl is that perfect. If you choose to support a character that's that unrealistic, then you have self-esteem issues. You're viewing the character as someone you aspire to be. You're no different than Ranka.

They are.

Once again, Thess proclaimed to have picked Sheryl based on her body structure (which is what "design" means). This argument had nothing to do with "character development" other than my saying why I picked Ranka: for her personality.

I said usually, which means on other anime.

I usually watch three episodes before picking (like with SDF) a character to support.

I waited at least half the series of SDF before I picked Misa to support romantically and Minmei as a standalone. I waited one episode to support Basara (cause I knew immediately who she'd pick inwardly:heh:). I had trouble deciding with Zero. But I'd already picked Isamu as my favorite character even if he would've lost (yahoo!!!:D). Hell, I supported Focker. (Why'd you die, Roy!? *cries*)

I don't normally enter a series and become so moved by a character's first impression like I did Ranka. Hell, even female characters I used to like don't compare to her Nyan-Nyan dance and his reaction. I was hooked on her personality and actions right from the get-go. She's just a normal teenager.

1. wow, you really just compared Ranka to Rei?
2. Still Ranka never asked if Alto had a girlfriend.
3.Not all the things you write interest me, I just respond to the ones that pick my interest
4.the duty of the damsel in distress in fiction is not that, is just a way to tell the history.(It's mostly motivational) Still she didn't do anything she just screamed or cryed for help!
5 Do ALL of us a favor and please recheck what fanon is. here a helpful source (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Fanon).
6. Nobody ever called Sheryl any of those names (but Ranka got called those even if as a joke)
7. I said what I liked about Sheryl and made me pick her, never I stated that she was perfect or not I just liked that she could live up to her words, Ranka failed miserably at this, when she didn't sing for everyone as she said she wanted; and hers was even easier.
8. I do not know what kind of people you know but the people I know all try they very best to be strong and keep on with what they say and I keep they around because that's a life philosophy that I agree with.
9. I will atribute to your ADD that you missed Sheryl developement and flaws.
10 Will you stop insulting me when you run out of arguments, it makes you look bad.
11. yes and liking ranka for ten minutes of screen time is not shallow at all ¬¬
12. Don't put words in other people mouths.
13. Teenagers that act that childish are actually quite mentally affected.

Well, to be fair that's how balls are supposed to be holded (Guys you will make me LOL and I have to resist)

And who designed Leon because he didn't have to try to act creepy he was creepy, even with a different love interest.

I also think something broke when Leon and Kathy... UGH!

justinstrife

2011-11-25, 02:32

And I rooted for Motoko in Love Hina... although I knew she was going to lose. Fortunately, losing a prediction has yet to cause an averse health effect...

Oh wait, you are right... I actually like watermelons.

- Tak

Ahhh Love Hina. I didn't have a favorite in that series, but it was clear as daylight who was going to win that one.

My prediction rate is almost perfect. Shuffle at least required a few episodes for me to figure out. I knew who my favorite was from the first episode, but it took about 10 episodes or so before I figured out she had taken that inside track for sure.

It's kind of funny. I'll play the shipping war if a character peeks my interest, but I at least admit when my favorite character is losing the war, or that the war is already lost, halfway into a series. I might still argue why I think the 'winner' is not as good a fit for the main character, or where character development was few and far between, but I admit who was going to win, and who infact did win.

And boy have there been times where characters I did NOT want to win, won. Da Capo for example. Ugh... Or Fate Stay Night. Or Ichigo 100%. Or Samurai Deeper Kyo. Just to name a few. Watching the end was always painful...

magnuskn

2011-11-25, 03:04

So guys, what did you think of Leon's balls in this movie? :p

He had two sets of them. :D Seriously, he fared much better than in the series. Well, as far as his actions go, his hair styling still was terrible.

teelatsuki

2011-11-25, 03:11

Leon has the smarts but he is quite lacking in the weapon department.

Also he should have know that that haircut would never take him far.

Falcor

2011-11-25, 03:21

haha oh lord. I think Leons creepiness was really amped up in the 2nd movie. I'm glad they kept out any... uhhh... "romantic" scenes of him and Lucas sister. :twitch:

wheres a barf emote when you need it?
http://50.imagebam.com/download/pC1KrL0F6fwi6vEI8Wjvng/16002/160017399/th_puke.gif
Romantic? THAT WAS BLATANT RAPE!! When watermelonmushroom went down with Kathy in the series... I think something died inside of me.
And who designed Leon because he didn't have to try to act creepy he was creepy, even with a different love interest.

I also think something broke when Leon and Kathy... UGH!
That is definitely among the top reasons why the movies trump the series: no heinous violation of Kathy. :D It does seem they went a bit overboard making Leon such a dislikable character. Creepy barely seems an adequate description. :heh:

MichiNekoChan

2011-11-25, 03:40

http://50.imagebam.com/download/pC1KrL0F6fwi6vEI8Wjvng/16002/160017399/th_puke.gif

Thank you kindly. Off to edit my post

Romantic? THAT WAS BLATANT RAPE!! When watermelon went down with Kathy in the series... I think something died inside of me.

- Tak

Haha I was trying to be... nice(?) about it. Though yea. it was pretty bad @_@ http://50.imagebam.com/download/pC1KrL0F6fwi6vEI8Wjvng/16002/160017399/th_puke.gif

LoveMeKags

2011-11-25, 03:52

1. wow, you really just compared Ranka to Rei?

Because she had, what, three or four lines in the first five to ten minutes up until she met Alto? When Rei was introduced, she said nothing. That's what I'm comparing her to.

2. Still Ranka never asked if Alto had a girlfriend.

Why would she?

Would you walk up to a guy and right off the bat (to a stranger or person you just met) ask "do you have a girlfriend?" Or, more importantly, would you ask a person who you might not meet again "do you have a girlfriend?"

Ranka gave an opening. It was Alto who had to close the gap. When he did, it wasn't exactly the time to ask said question. They were trapped in a shelter. Afterwards, she decided to see where it would head. He was just a crush at that time. Her love for him started to really show by E10. But I could argumentatively say that Sheryl kissing him answered that question of "no, I don't have a girlfriend," because Ranka was well aware they'd just met not that long ago.

Also, E6, Alto doesn't admit to having a girlfriend, otherwise he would've stated "I was on a date with Sheryl Nome yesterday, my new girlfriend."

3.Not all the things you write interest me, I just respond to the ones that pick my interest

Same here.

4.the duty of the damsel in distress in fiction is not that, is just a way to tell the history.(It's mostly motivational) Still she didn't do anything she just screamed or cryed for help!

You obviously miss what the term damsel in distress means: that is what they do! They scream and cry for help constantly no matter what. Hell, sometimes they even hit the hero for being late to help them. I can't the number of anime in which I facepalmed at the number of females who hit their respective hero and played the role of damsel in distress constantly.

6. Nobody ever called Sheryl any of those names (but Ranka got called those even if as a joke)

Speaking for yourself, are we?

Sorry but no, a lot of people, especially here in past posts have referred to her as such or depicted her that way in their posts.

7. I said what I liked about Sheryl and made me pick her, never I stated that she was perfect or not I just liked that she could live up to her words, Ranka failed miserably at this, when she didn't sing for everyone as she said she wanted; and hers was even easier.

Because Sheryl chose to love her precious stage and audience more than the man she was after makes her selfless? Because Ranka loves her man more than a silly stage makes her selfish?

Honestly, you guys never cease to amaze me.

Ranka's been loved by everyone without asking for it. For the first time in her life, she wants to love someone and that makes her selfish because her heart was crushed. Honestly, first loves hurt the worst. And Ranka sadly got to experience that pain. Put yourself in her situation before saying that. Ranka didn't know what was going to happen and when it did, I'm sure she went "I just caused that. I spoke and they appeared." Did you really think she was gonna sing and possibly cause the mess to get worse? I'm glad she didn't. We would've said bye-bye to Frontier a lot sooner had she done so, especially without that plan at the end.

Ranka's wasn't easy either. She was nobody. Sheryl was a somebody. To climb to the top was the toughest part. Once that was done, she had to keep it. But the pressure was there, and it showed throughout E11 to go onto E16 and 17. It was clear that Ranka felt pressured but refused to give up. Like I've said before, Ranka and Sheryl have both had moments of crashing down. Ranka was E20 and Sheryl was E18. Doesn't mean they haven't lived up to what they could accomplish. Both accepted their limits. And for Ranka, that was hers.

9. I will atribute to your ADD that you missed Sheryl developement and flaws.

I saw the flaws. But they were so small that they might as well have no existed. Her development is what made her unrealistic. Like one of my friends said, she became the "ideal woman that every man desires once in their life." I don't like those kinds of women.

10 Will you stop insulting me when you run out of arguments, it makes you look bad.

Same for you.

11. yes and liking ranka for ten minutes of screen time is not shallow at all ¬¬

And liking a Sheryl for just her body structure is "not shallow." Please, at least I watched the first episode first. And I said I fell for her character after the "come by Nyan-Nyan" scene. I believe that's the fifteen minute marker, if I'm not mistaken. But honestly, Sheryl didn't grab my attention at all. Her and Miranda are just the worst introduced characters.

13. Teenagers that act that childish are actually quite mentally affected.

Um, hello, she has amnesia.:twitch:

Of course she acts differently, but she also acts like a spoiled brat at times, which is natural if you're raised by your father (or a male in general) whom spoils you. But she has that shyness to her that is normal of a self-conscious teen. She has all the basic instincts of a teenager.

She only acts childish to throw people off. E10 of her "manning up" to take the role surely showed how grown up she is outside of that childish personality. Hell, Alto even said Sheryl can act childish too. Or did you forget that being mentioned in Movie 1 when Ranka asked his opinion? In that case, Sheryl is mentally challenged too.

teelatsuki

2011-11-25, 04:37

People could bash you for even dare to say that Rei and Ranka have anything in common in their personalities.

Now she made an "invitation into her life" as you put it, and then proceded to develop her crush without asking about him even once until episode 21 (well she was curios by episode 10 but still asked nothing).

Still you say my reading skills are bad because I don't reply to everything you say?

You know that it doen't hurt to try and help a little the hero be I don't know trying something, I could post images as to what I'm talking about but nah.

please evidence or it didn't happen.

Stop changing my argument, Ranka said she wanted to sing for everyone and when she got her dream she crashed, she didn't live up to her words, she could have perfectly sing for everyone and sing for Alto but she didn't she stoped singing because Alto didn't listen.

As for Sheryl she didn't choose the stage over Alto, She wanted to live up to her words she said that she would help frontier and she did, she said that she hated to wait to be saved and tryed to save herself, she said that she will always do whatever is in her power to do and she did, I'm not talking about some magnificent power in here, this is something that everyone could do and that Sheryl did it deserves respect.

You go around saying Sheryl being a bitch, being mean, being closed, and all and now her flaws are minor, really recheck your arguments to see were they lose consistency.

Now I don't go attacking you directly but your arguments (also the ADD you brought it yourself, if you could use it as an excuse I could use it as a way to explain why you miss so much obvious things, and I like it better than the shipping googles one.) unlike you who keep calling me things.

I already said that her design had nothing to do with my selection it was the character itself (and it came up until chapter 7, SO LESS SHALLOW than disliking a character since their introduction), you just had an impression and that was it and then you come here and call people shallow, check on this conduct because it's really rude.

I still have to wonder why if she has lived more of her life as Ranka Lee her amnesia seem to be her wild card for all her troubles, she was a little kid at the time she surely could have matured a little in between right?

Ranka didn't act childish SHE WAS CHILDISH, and did so all the way to the end (episode 21 being a little breather out of it). Sheryl acting childish is rarer and WAY MORE justified since she most likely didn't get to act that way when she was a child, in any case it was most like wanting to be spoiled.

Movie Ranka did mature, she acted her age, she tried to be helpful, she made smart decisions heck movie Ranka might as well get to have a different name beacuse she is an amazing character (though yes she is way too perfect none of her series counterpart flaws carried on) and doesn't deserve to be compared to series ranka.

BetoJR

2011-11-25, 08:28

Well, what did you guys think of all the surfing motiff, in this movie? Surely that's worth discussing, no?

karice67

2011-11-25, 11:24

^

The Captain's surfing (first mentioned in the light novels? I think...and apparently very well received by fans) and Eureka 7. Is there another relevant homage?

=====

Official Complete Book Interview: Kawamori Shouji Part 4 (link (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=3870696#post3870696) to previous parts)

I found this part of the interview really interesting, because...

they talk about how the films came to be, sort of answering a question that has been at the back of the minds of some posters here...and
they talk about why the three main characters were changed to various extents...

There were two character designers. Ebata Risa and Takahashi Yuuichi – did you decide on them through an audition?

I anticipated that there would be a lot of conceptual art we’d have to do. That’s why I asked for the two of them. And because they both have their own unique characteristics, I felt that it’d be good since we’d have a lot of variety. They both gave us some fantastic characters…but it was actually really tough to have to reproduce Sheryl, and Ranka.

“Macross F” is a work that actually had many components, from the music and the double heroines to the mecha. You even included the Koenig Monster that you designed for the “Macross VF-X2” game, and used title(s) from “Macross 7” as insert songs. So this work is like a complete commemoration worth of the 25th anniversary, don’t you think?

Truth is, when I was in my 20s and 30s, I felt that I didn’t ever want to use something I’d used before in a new work. I thought that my ideas would wither and die if I took the easy way out. However, when I hit my 40s, I ventured to put some of these old features into (new) works. And when I did that, I found that the possibilities actually expanded.

So is that something that has come along with age?

The timing was important too. “Genesis of Aquarion”, which I was working on before this, was made based around a pretty crazy world-view, so we were able ‘to go through the royal road’* with “Macross Frontier”.

[I]*I really don’t know what he means here… ——karice

When did you start making tangible headway on the production of the films?

Probably around the time that the first DVD for the TV series went on sale. At that stage, we proposed making a side-story not with the Vajra, but with a different enemy – we thought that’d be the easiest to do. But that proposal was shot down by the production committee. The result: a two-part work. The first film was meant to be something like a reedit, with 70% recycled footage and 30% new footage, and the second film the opposite, with 30% recycled and 70% new animation. Well, it really didn’t settle into something like that (laughs).

The previous film, “False Diva” did actually end up being a large-scale production that was 70% recycled and 30% new, didn’t it?

That was a surprise. At first, I thought that we could just split the two films such that the first contained the ‘introduction’ and ‘development’, with the second having the ‘turn’ and ‘conclusion’*. However, when you try to do that, you’ll find that you can’t make a movie just out of ‘introduction’ and ‘development’. And so we decided to increase Alto and Ranka’s levels of maturity, and added the subplot of Sheryl being suspected of being spy. Many of the staff kept saying that “it’s fine if Sheryl doesn’t change”, but we somehow managed to get them to accept it.

[I]*This comes from a phrase that delineates the four elements a story should have. ——karice

Why did the staff say “it’s fine if Sheryl doesn’t change”?

During the TV series, we managed to get just about the right balance for Sheryl as a character, getting the audience to almost hating her but, in the end, liking her as ‘the Galaxy Fairy’. In fact, we used a lot of different tricks to achieve that. For example, the depictions of Sheryl in the deculture edition and the TV broadcast are different. In the deculture edition, we left out much of Sheryl’s cuteness, whilst in the TV version, we cut down on her harshness and increased the ‘cute’ scenes where you can see what she’s like inside. In other words, all the versions are different. I’m glad that, in creating her this way, we managed to get the audience behind her.