Claymore Chapter 110

[Gooral]

(as if i said that warriors with no potential like Yuma can become as strong as monsters like Prissy?)

No, you didn't explicitly say that Yuma could become an Abyssal One (I didn't say Prissy BTW, you're accusing me of distorting while you're doing it, lol). But going by your line of thought it is exactly like that. If Alicia could improve her speed and power by 30% then it's obvious there would be some that could improve even more. Or are you saying that 30% is a limit for everyone and there wouldn't be a Claymore that could become twice as strong and fast as he was? Where's the limit here? Going by your line of thought there is none. There is no limit since you removed this limit. I'm saying there is a limit.
and also Gooral's way of thinking is based on a linear strenght-damage relationship that is SURELY wrong,and use that clearly wrong assumption to discredit Riful's theory.
No, that's not linear strength I'm using and let me prove it to you. (See the last part of my post).

Gooral,don't try to distort what i said.It's clear that Alisia could already awaken at that time,all i said was that EVEN IF she couldn't awaken,at that point her basic power was not enough to make her strong enough even after the awakening,that's why the Mib ordered Ali that kind of training.
I'm not distorting anything. Are you saying you didn't write what I've quoted? You didn't say as you're writing now that "EVEN IF she couldn't awaken", you've written "Even if she was able to awaken" !!! Admit you've used the wrong words instead of accusing me of sth I didn't do.
And it's not clear Alicia could awaken, in fact it's clear she couldn't awaken then. Otherwise it would mean she was a weakling #1 not strongest in the annals.

Following your theory once awakened they reach their max power,so the only way to explain the increase step-by-step would be partial awakening........the only problem is that we have seen ONLY CLAIRE using partial awakening to that kind of level,and considering that Claire is not normal we are not even sure if others can use that technique.
Anyway i admit that if Ali and Beth could do that, your theory has no problems,but imo even if definitely possible is not the most probable 'cause we have to assume things that we have NEVER seen in the manga.
Alicia and Beth aren't normal either. They can use the soul link. And soul-link as MiB know works only (best?) for twins. So even if they knew about partial awakening they would have to see ghosts in action to even consider the possibility that it's possible for normal warriors also.

But i have a final doubt, how is it possible that Alisia was already able to fully awaken to kill Isle's army?
The time passed is definitely too short.
I've already addressed this argument earlier. You're saying that she could become stronger awakened that fast but she couldn't learn how to completely awaken that fast. Where is a logic in this?

When did i say that she become SUDDENLY strong enough to fight Riful??????
She had 7 years of hell training to increase 30% her basic power,i'd say that for someone that has the potential is perfectly normal.And btw,what's wrong to be weaker than Raph in the beginning???
As a normal claymore Raph is a true monster,already at the level that her awakening would make her AO level.
You didn't have to say it. Yagi said it. She was COMPLETE when she faced these 11 ABs. Galatea said it explicitly - not only Alicia but also Beth had youma energy that rivaled AOs !!! As for next 7 years, we don't know that she improved over that time. Definitely not in youki department since Galatea sensed them as roughly equal to AOs (and she knew how strong Riful was) and when Riful sensed them she knew she had comparable youki to her. They were waiting for a chance to strike and they needed to kill Isley first. It took the 7 years to develop AFs and kill him and only then, when there would be no danger from Isley could they go after Riful.
As for what's wrong with Alicia having weaker stats than Rafaella. Besides the fact that MiB wouldn't call her the strongest in the annals then (and her handler said it in a moment we're arguing about), also because she wouldn't be of Abyssal class.

Escape?She probably just knew that even if she tried to follow her Alisia would be able to escape.....not to mention that she couldn't risk Alisia to attack her 'cause Dauf was almost dead and we know for a fact that even if Riful act mean,she really cares for him.
Riful was in awakened form, Alicia was not. Riful could disappear in a split of a second and she would be definitely faster than un-awakened Alicia. It would suffice she would go to where Alicia was and injure her before Alicia even had a chance to awaken. It only meant that Riful was afraid that Alicia might awaken (and she would be about as strong as Riful) or that even as a Claymore she could deal her a great amount of damage.

And who said this???
This is pure nonsense.
It depends at which point of the training is the warrior.If a new warrior has already basic stats on the same level as Miria's basic stats now, i'd say that she is a real monster and sure as hell she could become n.1 material (and so a possible AO,if she awakens when she is n.1).
Since IT'S S FACT that basic stats can change (infact if you look at Claire's basic stats (but not only hers) in the databook they obviously don't match with her actual ones),there is nothing wrong for Alisia in the middle of her training to be weaker than Raph.
And you're telling me that you never said "Yuma can become an Abyssal" lol !!! Not only you're saying exactly that but also you're saying that someone weaker than Yuma can become Abyssal one by using Clare as an example. Talk about shooting your own foot.
No, Miria can't become of Abyssal class level. She has too weak youki. Even after 7 years she was nowhere near abyssals level. She became a much stronger Claymore but that's it. There is nothing that indicates that if she awakened she would be able to be of Isley's class. Between her and Ophelia was a huuuge gap. She said it herself: avoid them because "each of them is a monster". She also said that their powers have grown thanks to partial awakening. But that obviously referred to powers they've had as Claymores not ABs. We also know it thanks to Deneve. Again:
Chapter 95, p.15, gernot's translation:
"My first youriki release in seven years. Seems to be increasing my youki almost to the limit even during normal times"

Which means that she has access to 50-80% of her power even though her face isn't distorted. Which means that she has more access to her hidden powers which normally she would only have as an awakened. Which doesn't mean she would become stronger AB. It means she wouldn't need to awaken at all since with time she might have access to all her powers that normally would be available only to ABs.

Did anyone tell Deneve/Helen/Yuma/Cynthia that their youki DIDN'T increase? No.
_____________________
I beg to differ.
Chapter 95, p.15, gernot's translation:
"My first youriki release in seven years. Seems to be increasing my youki almost to the limit even during normal times"
She didn't say that her youki increased. She said that she could use more of it (as if she has released 50-80% of youki). If her youki increased she or Helen would definitely comment on that since that would be too great of a change to not tell it but tell that "they have more access". Miria also said "your powers have grown" not your youki has grown. They became stronger Claymores but no one has noticed any difference in their powers. Galatea also didn't notice any change in Deneve's power. Clare was always considered as a weakling. She was considered as pathetic warrior and a weakling by Miria, Deneve and Helen even after her first awakening. Ophelia who has witnessed her second half-awakening still considered her as a weak, almost disappointing opponent and Clare managed to give her entertainment only thanks to her wits and technique. She didn't comment that she became stronger or anything, there was no change besides that she smelled like an AB. Later on she commented that Clare got stronger but that was only because of the arm Irene gave her. After that in Witch's Maw Riful commented on Clare being very weak even though she awakened two times already and had Irene's arm. Even after awakening for the third time (and maybe fourth) Riful didn't mention any power increase, she was only interested in her because she could half-awaken. I don't think she would omit the fact that Clare jumped to being a single digit warrior-class if that really happened. In Pieta neither Miria, nor Deneve (Helen is just too bad at this) noticed any power boost in Clare besides her right arm. And Flora was disappointed in her "real" power which made obvious that it was thanks to her right arm that she became so strong. Finally Rigaldo commented that Clare was weak (weaker than Undine and Veronica so in his eyes she wasn't even single digit) even though she was after several awakenings then +she had Irene's arm and technique. And it wasn't abyssal one that considered her very weak but #2. Only Miria, Flora, Jean, Undine and Veronica were considered as a nuisance by him. Deneve and Helen were also ignored even though according to Miria in Slasher's Arc they should easily be able to handle single digits, i.e. they should be stronger than most warriors Rigald was after.
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I SAID 1000000 TIMES ALREADY THAT IT OBVIOUS THAT SOMEONE LIKE YUMA CAN'T OBTAIN AO'S POWERS EVEN IF SHE TRAINS 4EVER!!!!!!!!
How is it obvious? You're saying that Miria and Deneve can become AO, but Yuma can't? WTF? Your theory is not consistent. You arbitrarily choose which warriors can become abyssals and which can't. You've even brought up Clare's example even though as a #47, dead last she should have lesser chances to become AO than Yuma and she obviously exceeded even abyssals. I am not the one who's ignoring your arguments. You are ignoring what you've written yourself !!! And for your information, adding the word "obviously" doesn't make it obvious unless you have sth to support that. You have nothing and instead you're getting lost in your own arguments.

Of course not,they selected twins with great theoretical potential.
<rotfl> And how could they know they've had great potential? They were infants then. We know that because just after Zemu had twins MiB came and took them away. You're saying now that they could find Alicia's and Beths just by looking, as they pleased... And you ignored my argument about making armies of Teresas.

It's been proved a lot of times that databook is wrong.For the databook Alisia is even stronger than Prissy and Teresa......yeah,right.......
ACCORDING TO THEM. Teresa has much better stats than Rafaela and Alicia has even better stats than Teresa. So unless they measured Rafaela's strength as smaller than what it really was you're completely wrong.

In case you haven't noticed Raph didn't deny even when Rubel was completely wrong about her intention,lol.
lol at you.
He hit the jackpot when he commented on her intentions. If Rafaela didn't try to bring Luciella back and only tried to kill her she wouldn't end up as Raciella.

And btw it's true that Raph and Luc had the same power,but it's possible that Raph has become a bit more powerful than before after all those years (since she wanted to kill someone at AO level,it's quite obvious that she trained in those years),unles she had already trained a lot in the past and reached the maximum of her basic stats,this is something that we can't know.
So? Her stats wouldn't differ much. And MiB repeated that Alicia is the strongest in the annals even in the day Rafaela hugged her sister. And there wasn't much time as you've said for both of them to improve much between Alicia met Riful and fought ABs. Ergo, Alicia was stronger than Rafaella when she met Riful and she was stronger when Rafaela was about to die.

Yes,it's simple logic.Simple and CLEARLY WRONG.
It seems you have zero experience of actual fighting but if you are 50% weaker than your opponent you'll never be able to cause him 50% damage.You'll be destroyed and if you can do 10% of damage you already did more than you could do.
It is you who don't understand. I'm already taking into account everything when I say she was 50% weaker. I'll repeat, I'm not saying she has 50% less strength and is 50% slower and has 50% less endurance, etc. It's all in the equation already. Even if she was as strong as Riful and would be as tough as Riful but she would be 50% slower it wouldn't mean she was 50% weaker. She would be much more weak. She wouldn't be able to do ANYTHING to her.
Let me use an analogy. We have a cube. It's edge is 10 m (a=10m, don't know how it's called in English). So it's volume is 1000 cubic metres (m3). And cube of half this volume doesn't have a=5m but almost 8 m !!! That's not linear thinking !!!

It's obvious that Alicia couldn't take into account everything when she said she could do 50% damage to her. You can't tell how much her parameters could be weaker for her to deal her 50% of damage. She couldn't either. All she could sense then was her youki and she could compare the youki at her disposal at the time to Riful's youki. And she estimated that she was 50% weaker than her.

[Ryus]

Been away for a couple days and missed all the posts. So there are two separate debates going on and I will put my 2 cents on both.

~

First, on Rosemary. She was a #1 for an undetermined period of time. Therefore, she is qualified to be mentioned in the list that Dae has asked for. The extra chapter pretty much showed that the Org did not know Rosemary has awakened. Otherwise, they would not underestimate Teresa so much.

We know that the Org underestimated Teresa and we know that she is one of the 8 names mentioned despite that. We know Rosemary was a #1. We know Teresa bumped Rosemary off of #1. Following this line of reasoning, even the Org's belief of Teresa's power (grossly underestimated) is still one of the 8 strongest No.1s and clearly stronger then Rosemary such that: she was bumped off to be #2 and she did not worth a mention. One fallacy in Gooral's logic is that he is using the true strength of Teresa when using Teresa demoting Rosemary to #2 to support his argument and not Teresa's perceived strength by the Org.

Prior to this chapter, the Rosemary argument has always centered on any No.1 can awaken into AO level and while I always believed there are different strength level between No.1s of each generation and the 3 AOs are from exceptional No.1s, there are no conclusive evidence to support this line of reason. Some people that believed Rosemary being AO level have always argued that if any No 1 awakened, they would become another AO and thus Teresa has defeated an AO class AB with only releasing to 10%. This chapter clearly confirmed that not all No.1s are equal and only 8 of them can be considered possible candidates to awaken into AO level. The MIBs are not sure that even if they awaken, they would actually be of an AO level but at least they possess the possibility. It basically shows that anyone not named do not even have the possibility of awakening into AO class. Rosemary is among those not named.

~

Second, on strength of awakening. It is clearly demonstrated by AB Priscilla, Alicia/Beth and Riful's words that both the source material and training as claymore effect the outcome of awakening. Priscilla and Teresa were hybridized with exceptional material and the process created such high potential candidates that even the Org grossly underestimated both of them. Both Riful's words to Clare and Co and Alicia's initial self assessment comparing to Riful indicate training and improving as claymore can result in more powerful awakening.

Half awakening also put a twist on things and almost serve as an artificial boost in the quality of hybridization. So while a claymore that was hybridized with avg source material, if she half awakened, her potential to have a much stronger awakening is hinted by Clare's limb awakening. Granted, she could be a special case and the effect may not come from half awakening but from inheriting Teresa's flesh. I am in the mind that it is from both though. And I think if either Helen or Denev awakens, they would also be freakishly strong.

Well, you took the lack of being mentioned a bit further than I took it but I can't fault the logic of it. Great rephrashing of previous debates with Rosemary up to now and great comments on what effects a warriors awakened power. Have a cookie! ;):D;)

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@Gooral http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/NF%20smilies/2n15zo.gif: Wall of bold! Wish I had time today to read it and reply, sorry that I don't.

[rafael1932]

Shiek,the main topic noew is basically:
-some of us think that when a warrior awakens she reaches a level of power that IS NOT RELATED to how powerful the warrior was at the moment of the awakening but it's a predetermined value (in other words if the warrior awakens before or after years training that would make her stronger,it doesn't make any difference in the final result)
-others instead (me included) think that if a warrior become stronger even her awakening would be more powerful (and i'm not talking about techniques or ability,i'm talking about power).But OBVIOUSLY this doesn't mean that with training someone can increase in power without any limit,there is a limit to this (like i explained better in past posts)


LOL,Riful theory doesn't makes sense only because it's a character prospective,it makes sense because it's the most logical theory,while your theory needs a lot of extra speculation of things never seen in the manga.
And btw when an author had to explain how something works in his/her manga,it's ALWAYS a character that give the explanation (especially since in this manga there is not an external narrator).


??????????What the hell are you saying?
Claymore CAN'T turn into yomas,they ALWAYS turned into AB from the very beginning,lol.

If you read my post more carefully, you will note that perspectives of characters are, many times, wrong. Why? Because is a story from their perspective. 1 guy may think 1 thing that is wrong. I said a lot of examples. Since the beginig that clare thought that claymores turn into yomas, she thought that and that was wrong. My point is that is not yagi telling this, is just a story and to confirm this from rifuls perspective we need more things. For example, riful can be wrong like clare was thinking that claymore turns them into yomas. We only known that claymores turn them into awakened after many episodes. now where is your confirmation of rifuls saying?

[Gooral]

@Ryus
You can always reply only to the part where I clearly show that their youki doesn't increase with time (the one with red lines) ;P.

[Ryus]

@Ryus
You can always reply only to the part where I clearly show that their youki doesn't increase with time (the one with red lines) ;P.

Wish I could... need to leave for the night in just a minute or two sadly though. I won't be near a pc when I'm gone neither, will have my smartphone but it's not really good enough to reply to something like that. My next free day might be Monday by the looks of things... sorry. :( Until the end of the year things will be hectic for me and I won't be posting as much as usual... crap gtg times up.

[Gooral]

First, on Rosemary. She was a #1 for an undetermined period of time. Therefore, she is qualified to be mentioned in the list that Dae has asked for. The extra chapter pretty much showed that the Org did not know Rosemary has awakened. Otherwise, they would not underestimate Teresa so much.
Yes, the question was which Claymores had chances of surpassing AOs. But MiB didn't answer this question, they answered "which number ones ended their life without awakening?" question. Even if they answered Dae's question it would still not mean that Rosemary was weaker than Luciella. Someone as strong as Luciella would have no chances of surpassing Luciella, is it that hard to conclude this? Even someone of Priscilla's stats (from databook - which was better than Rafaela's) didn't have any chances of replacing her. Only someone as strong as Alicia could (according to MiB).
Yes, they didn't know Rosemary awakened. Which only means that Teresa killed a defenseless former #1 who could be stronger than Luciella.

One fallacy in Gooral's logic is that he is using the true strength of Teresa when using Teresa demoting Rosemary to #2 to support his argument and not Teresa's perceived strength by the Org.
No I'm not and I would call what you're doing here trolling. I'm using the strength of Teresa who had much better stats than Rafaela (according to MiB, so they're comparing her to the underestimated version of her) and was considered as the strongest monster as Orsay said. Which means that she was the strongest of the 8 (unless after she died there were Claymores stronger than her which I doubt since at the time Alicia's training was in progress). And it's highly possible that Teresa was considered as the strongest of the ones they've mentioned - which Orsay's words suggest and we know that after Teresa incident there might have been one or two #1s at best. To be better than Teresa they would have to have stats like Alicia which would be rather hard to do. And if she wasn't considered the strongest then it would prove how powerful warriors they've mentioned and in fact increase Rosemary's chances of being stronger than Rafaela (since Teresa's stats > Rafaela's stats). Win-win situation for me and your failure.
Rafaela would also be demoted without a fight when compared to underestimated Teresa.

Read my arguments next time instead of trolling. (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=3383466#post3383466)

I used ctrl+c, ctrl+v in some places so to not waste time on repeating myself.

[Shiek927]

Maaaan Gooral, now I know why people say you bold too much :heh:

Gooral bolds too much, Malak is holier-then-thou....I wonder what's my annoying part of debating :heh:

[Gooral]

I'm only bolding this often in really long posts such as this one (the one you mentioned that is). That way if some SagaraSouske accuses me of of fallacy I can instantly find the part I'm looking for.

[Shiek927]

I'm only bolding this often in really long posts such as this one. That way if some SagaraSouske accuses me of of fallacy I can instantly find the part I'm looking for.

You're wrong though on this part though Gooral ;):

Read my arguments next time instead of trolling.

Nobody is trolling over here Gooral, nobody. If you need an example, I can gladly give you some links of some over the years.

[Falcor]

_____________________
I beg to differ.
Chapter 95, p.15, gernot's translation:
"My first youriki release in seven years. Seems to be increasing my youki almost to the limit even during normal times"
She didn't say that her youki increased. She said that she could use more of it (as if she has released 50-80% of youki). If her youki increased she or Helen would definitely comment on that since that would be too great of a change to not tell it but tell that "they have more access". Miria also said "your powers have grown" not your youki has grown. They became stronger Claymores but no one has noticed any difference in their powers. Galatea also didn't notice any change in Deneve's power. Clare was always considered as a weakling. She was considered as pathetic warrior and a weakling by Miria, Deneve and Helen even after her first awakening. Ophelia who has witnessed her second half-awakening still considered her as a weak, almost disappointing opponent and Clare managed to give her entertainment only thanks to her wits and technique. She didn't comment that she became stronger or anything, there was no change besides that she smelled like an AB. Later on she commented that Clare got stronger but that was only because of the arm Irene gave her. After that in Witch's Maw Riful commented on Clare being very weak even though she awakened two times already and had Irene's arm. Even after awakening for the third time (and maybe fourth) Riful didn't mention any power increase, she was only interested in her because she could half-awaken. I don't think she would omit the fact that Clare jumped to being a single digit warrior-class if that really happened. In Pieta neither Miria, nor Deneve (Helen is just too bad at this) noticed any power boost in Clare besides her right arm. And Flora was disappointed in her "real" power which made obvious that it was thanks to her right arm that she became so strong. Finally Rigaldo commented that Clare was weak (weaker than Undine and Veronica so in his eyes she wasn't even single digit) even though she was after several awakenings then +she had Irene's arm and technique. And it wasn't abyssal one that considered her very weak but #2. Only Miria, Flora, Jean, Undine and Veronica were considered as a nuisance by him. Deneve and Helen were also ignored even though according to Miria in Slasher's Arc they should easily be able to handle single digits, i.e. they should be stronger than most warriors Rigald was after.
_____________________

OK, I'll bite:heh:

In the case of the half-awakened Claymores, their newly unlocked potential is clearly undetectable until they access it, meaning they have to purposely exceed their limit.

Look at the aftermath of the Battle of Pieta, where Isley and Priscilla BOTH note how TWO warriors stand out above the others. Granted, we don't know for certain which two, but it's safe to assume that one was Miria. So who would qualify for the other? None of the remaining warriors fit this bill since Miria was the only remaining single digit... hmmm.:eyebrow:

So either Miria was weaker than other single digits, or one of the warriors was as powerful. Since this was right after Clare's takedown of Rigaldo, who himself remarked "Magnificent" before being torn to bits, it doesn't leave much wiggle room. Unless Rigaldo's literal last word is to be easily dismissed, this pretty much negates anything he said before. And right from the lion's mouth.:D

As for Riful, you are assuming that her interest in Clare is just her half-awakening.
Now what possible interest would this be to her - if it didn't make Clare more powerful, she couldn't have cared less about the phenomena. Since she is consumed with the task of finding and awakening only exceptionally strong Claymores... need I say more?

Since there is no real definitive proof either way on this youki debate, why don't we just agree to disagree until Yagi decides to set us straight? Everything is mere speculation, and obviously it is all too easy to interpret the same statements quite differently. Translation discrepancies certainly don't help any, either.

[SagaraSouske]

Yes, the question was which Claymores had chances of surpassing AOs. But MiB didn't answer this question, they answered "which number ones ended their life without awakening?" question. Even if they answered Dae's question it would still not mean that Rosemary was weaker than Luciella. Someone as strong as Luciella would have no chances of surpassing Luciella, is it that hard to conclude this? Even someone of Priscilla's stats (from databook - which was better than Rafaela's) didn't have any chances of replacing her. Only someone as strong as Alicia could (according to MiB).
Yes, they didn't know Rosemary awakened. Which only means that Teresa killed a defenseless former #1 who could be stronger than Luciella.

First, the MIB did answer the question. What the first MIB said was "I don't know if they will be equal or surpassing the Abyssals or not (implied awakening), but those No.1 that did not awaken are ... (implied that the following list are the ones can possibly awaken to AO level)"

Second, saying 'Someone as strong as Luciella would have no chances of surpassing Luciella" is a technicality. Dae asked for anyone of comparable level power and didn't ask for someone of a higher power lvl then AO. Possibly equal or surpassing is not the same as what you are implicating here. There is a distinction between the two. Besides, some as strong as Luciella has a chance to surpass Lucilla, even surpassing her by a hair is surpassing. After all they are two different beings and results of awakening may not be identical.

Third, The 8 names given as I already said that is the possibility of being equal or surpassing AOs since the MIBs are not sure they would be if they awaken. If they only consider those 8 possible, then anyone else not mentioned, they clearly considered not possible.


No I'm not and I would call what you're doing here trolling. I'm using the strength of Teresa who had much better stats than Rafaela (according to MiB, so they're comparing her to the underestimated version of her) and was considered as the strongest monster as Orsay said. Which means that she was the strongest of the 8 (unless after she died there were Claymores stronger than her which I doubt since at the time Alicia's training was in progress). And it's highly possible that Teresa was considered as the strongest of the ones they've mentioned - which Orsay's words suggest and we know that after Teresa incident there might have been one or two #1s at best. To be better than Teresa they would have to have stats like Alicia which would be rather hard to do. And if she wasn't considered the strongest then it would prove how powerful warriors they've mentioned and in fact increase Rosemary's chances of being stronger than Rafaela (since Teresa's stats > Rafaela's stats). Win-win situation for me and your failure.
Rafaela would also be demoted without a fight when compared to underestimated Teresa.

Read my arguments next time instead of trolling. (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=3383466#post3383466)

I used ctrl+c, ctrl+v in some places so to not waste time on repeating myself.

Historically, when we are arguing about Teresa vs Priscilla and using Rosemary as measuring stick, you have always combined the evidence of Teresa's true power (in her fight with Pris) compare to that of Rosemary chapter. In this link where you refer to your argument in this thread, all you mentioned was Rosemary may be as strong or stronger then Lucilla but weaker the Teresa. Based on your previous stance, I had assume that's the same comparison between Rosemary and Teresa. If you some how changed that stance since we last debated on the subject, then I will take back what I said about being a fallacy.

But what you said here, let's say for the sake of the argument I agree with your line of reason here that Teresa is the strongest of the 8 named mentioned. That does not change the fact that Rosemary is eligible to be mentioned (unlike Pris and Raphella) and that she isn't mentioned. Demotion doesn't remove her from once being a No1. It's a matter of what the MIB considered to be AO class material or not. Rosemary simply does not make the cut, which pretty much implies she has to be weaker then Raphella since if Raphella was No.1, she would have made the list.

Pris on the other hand may not be in the same situation as Raph. The Org clearly judged their perceived No.1, Teresa, was also stronger then Pris at the time since they didn't promote her straight to No.1 and send her out with Irene and Co. to eliminate Teresa. Pris didn't have a chance to grow and mature as a claymore to claim her strong No.1 position and the Org clearly didn't know how powerful AB Pris is.

P.S. Raw stats (data book) does not equate to how strong a claymore is. It is only one form of measurement. The skills the claymore learned and the abilities they acquired through their survival also matters. A simple comparison of Yuma and Cynthia databook raw stats with some of the more powerful claymores would show stats do not tell all the story.

[rafael1932]

Ahh... peace… how good…:)

By the way, if you train for 7 years you will get a boosts but if you stop that boosts will stop too. So if your yoki power is 500 and that boosts gives you 550 (+ 50) wont you lose that same boosts if you stop training or reduce? Do you believe that you will have that boots forever?

[FormerAbyssalone]

Man people I have never seen posts as long as the ones the past few pages!:) I'm quite impressed people, very impressed.:D


Lets only hope upcoming chapters do the same!:)

[Dj0rel]

Man people I have never seen posts as long as the ones the past few pages!:) I'm quite impressed people, very impressed.:D


Lets only hope upcoming chapters do the same!:)

You apparently weren't here as long as I thought.:D

[SagaraSouske]

His join date is Apr 2010

[Gooral]

Look at the aftermath of the Battle of Pieta, where Isley and Priscilla BOTH note how TWO warriors stand out above the others. Granted, we don't know for certain which two, but it's safe to assume that one was Miria. So who would qualify for the other? None of the remaining warriors fit this bill since Miria was the only remaining single digit... hmmm.
Only Priscilla commented on that, Isley didn't. She somehow knew (just like Miata) which were stronger but as it was said - it was matter of youki quality not quantity. And it's no surprise that Miria was in the group of the 2 strong lights. She was after all the highest ranking and the most powerful warrior present there and the second in line alive was Deneve or Cynthia (of the remaining six) who were many classes below her. As for Clare, if Priscilla sensed her QoB mode then it wouldn't be a surprise either.
I'll admit though that Clare is special since she has hidden power inside. The thing is even after many partial-awakenings it couldn't be sensed. And it still doesn't mean she has increased her power. It could as well mean she has more access to her hidden power.

So either Miria was weaker than other single digits, or one of the warriors was as powerful. Since this was right after Clare's takedown of Rigaldo, who himself remarked "Magnificent" before being torn to bits, it doesn't leave much wiggle room. Unless Rigaldo's literal last word is to be easily dismissed, this pretty much negates anything he said before. And right from the lion's mouth.
Clare has awakened her 4 limbs then. If she awakened completely she would be above abyssal's level. This doesn't mean that she wouldn't be as powerful AB if she awakened in Rabona when Raki saved her. Clearly, plain youki release isn't enough for others to see how powerful Clare really is, she had to awaken her limbs for that. Which she did. In previous cases she only went past 50% but didn't awaken anything but went back. These are totally different cases. And still every time she went over her limit it was clear that she was much faster and stronger than everyone would assume looking at her number which only means that every time she goes over her limit she isn't using only her outer layer of youki but a hidden also, similarly how Riful does it. Audrey and Rachel thought that Riful was weaker than them combined but they only sensed her outer layer. The same thing might be happening (and probably is) with Clare. Do you think that Riful is becoming from being weaker than Audrey+Rachel to many times stronger than them or do you think she's always stronger than them?

As for Riful, you are assuming that her interest in Clare is just her half-awakening.
Now what possible interest would this be to her - if it didn't make Clare more powerful, she couldn't have cared less about the phenomena. Since she is consumed with the task of finding and awakening only exceptionally strong Claymores... need I say more?
Riful's own words after Clare HA (half-awakened): "A high ranked warrior who can control youma energy and an enigmatic warrior who acn turn back even after going past her limit. I like you two".
Riful didn't notice any change in Clare but she was impressed that Clare could suddenly become much faster and stronger thanks to high-youki release and go back. She also didn't say anything like that after Clare went past her limit the second time. She also didn't say that Jean got stronger even though she AWAKENED and de-awakened and made sth no one else (not even Clare) managed to do AFAWK.

You also didn't respond to my other examples. Galatea didn't notice any change in Deneve's youki after she partially awakened in Slasher's arc. Ophelia didn't either. Flora considered Clare as someone weak even though Clare was after 5 HAs already (and she witnessed her going over the limit too, I've forgotten about the turtle AB). And Riguald didn't notice any change in Clare until she awakened her limbs, when she was releasing her youki he didn't even notice her. He also didn't consider Deneve or Helen as strong warriors.

So as you can see if anything we have written in the manga black on white that youki doesn't increase. Oh, and there's what Deneve said in ch95.

@Sagara
I've countered every possible argument on that matter in my previous posts. It's a waste of my time to repeat myself. You believe what you want to believe and I'll do the same.

[MalakTawus]

@Gooral
But going by your line of thought it is exactly like that.
Sorry Gooral,but this alone is proof that you haven't understood AT ALL what me and others (following Riful's theory) are saying,NOT EVEN CLOSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No, you didn't explicitly say that Yuma could become an Abyssal One (I didn't say Prissy BTW, you're accusing me of distorting while you're doing it, lol).
Ok, i was wrong,it wasn't you that said stronger than Prissy (it was rafael1932,my bad),but this is just a distortion of the form,the meaning is exactly the same......

If Alicia could improve her speed and power by 30% then it's obvious there would be some that could improve even more. Or are you saying that 30% is a limit for everyone and there wouldn't be a Claymore that could become twice as strong and fast as he was?
my god,but do you re-read your post?Don't you see that what you say here is absurd??
Who said anything about 30% increase being the maximum increse in general???
Please Gooral,if you haven't go re-read post #737 (i ws talking with An4rchy99) and #748.
I don't know what the hell are you imagining,but sure as hell you think that my opinion is A LOT DIFFERENT than what it really is.Riful's theory is absolutely intuitive and clear,you are just making an huge confusion for nothing.
Where's the limit here? Going by your line of thought there is none. There is no limit since you removed this limit. I'm saying there is a limit.
Now i'm sure.YOU HAVEN'T UNDERSTOOD A SINGLE WORD OF WHAT I SAID.I HAVE REPEATEDLY SAID IN A LOT OF POSTS IN THE LAST FEW PAGES THAT IMO THERE IS A LIMIT!!!!!AND IF INSTEAD OF DISTORTING MY WORDS YOU ACTUALLY READ MY POSTS I SAID THIS VERY CLEARLY (nad if you don't belive me you can check,all my posts are still there).
The difference is in the way we see that limit,but even that is explained very clearly in my pasts posts.

I'm not distorting anything. Are you saying you didn't write what I've quoted? You didn't say as you're writing now that "EVEN IF she couldn't awaken", you've written "Even if she was able to awaken" !!! Admit you've used the wrong words instead of accusing me of sth I didn't do.
I haven't used anything wrong.I was just analyzing how the situation would have been "even in the scenario" (in this sense i used "even if") that Alisia couldn't awaken....and this is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than saying that i changed my opinion.So no,i didn't use anything wrong,it's you that distorted what i said.

And it's not clear Alicia could awaken, in fact it's clear she couldn't awaken then. Otherwise it would mean she was a weakling #1 not strongest in the annals.
The only reason that she is considered the strongest is because she can fight in awakened form,in the end even when she was fully awakened she was mothing more than AO level.

Alicia and Beth aren't normal either. They can use the soul link.
Being able to do a strange and unique technique is very different than being genetically different than normal claymores.Ali and Beth are absolutely normal warrior from this point of view.

I've already addressed this argument earlier. You're saying that she could become stronger awakened that fast but she couldn't learn how to completely awaken that fast. Where is a logic in this?
I knew it.You misunderstood AGAIN.
I'm not saying that she became any better in that short of time,i'm saying that she was already able to do what she did to fight Isley's army,it's just that that level wasn't enough to fight against Riful(infact she had to train again to increase her basic powers,so that even her awakening would be more powerful).
You didn't have to say it. Yagi said it. She was COMPLETE when she faced these 11 ABs.
Ahhhhh!!!! I'm saying that her awakening power changes depending on how strong she is when she awakens!!!!So i'm saying that 7 years later when Ali awakens is STRONGER than when she fought Isley's army,'cause in those years she trained and increased her basic powers.And btw i'm simply following the logic that Riful suggested,it's not a strange theory at all,it's super intuitive.

No seriously,it's even pointless to continue to answer to that post since you are basically arguing with a theory that is not even close to Riful's theory (that me and others are following).Before continuing this you should at least understand how Riful's theory works,if not this discussion is crazy.

And you're telling me that you never said "Yuma can become an Abyssal" lol !!! Not only you're saying exactly that but also you're saying that someone weaker than Yuma can become Abyssal one by using Clare as an example. Talk about shooting your own foot.
Are you smoking,lol.
I NEVER said this.No,really if you find my post where i said this you can "quote me".
If you don't belive me you can ask An4rchy99,i'm sure he can confirm that i said EXACTLY THE CONTRARY TO THIS.

And she estimated that she was 50% weaker than her.
No,she estimated that she was able to do 50% damage that is very different than saying that she was 50% weaker.
In normal speaking when you say that warrior A is 50% weaker than warrior B, NO ONE can think in the way that you suggested,so since you didn't explain what you mean what you say "50% weaker",it seems quite an excuse to come up with that only in a second time,but anyway this is not even the point.
Regardless of the way you consider "50% weaker", there was not an huge difference in power between Riful and Alisia,'cause if that was the case Ali would have never been able to damage Riful at 50% (50% is a lot of damage,not just a little).

[SagaraSouske]

Malak, lol, you need to calm down a bit. You have been on this forum long enough to know how Gooral handles his argument. It's not that he doesn't read yours or his own argument. It's just everything he reads, including his own words, are filtered through sort of a tunnel vision that gets distorted somewhat. Don't take the repeated rehash at face value and focus on the bigger picture of what his idea or views are. It is easy to lose in details and technicalities arguing with him, which at the end of the day are not that important.

At least it's an improvement compare to the past that now he think that others can have a different but valid belief then he does. I consider that quite more open minded for him since this long debate started a few years ago.

[su5so]

Changing the subject, I have a question on Chapter 110:
Priscilla joined Raki by his aroma "fragrancy". And In the battle of pieta, Priscila read the yoki of Clare.
So, why Priscila could not smell the aroma of Clare, if she could read Clare's yoki?

[SagaraSouske]

Prob too far away. She can detect youki from far longer distance then smell.

[MalakTawus]

Malak, lol, you need to calm down a bit. You have been on this forum long enough to know how Gooral handles his argument. It's not that he doesn't read yours or his own argument. It's just everything he reads, including his own words, are filtered through sort of a tunnel vision that gets distorted somewhat. Don't take the repeated rehash at face value and focus on the bigger picture of what his idea or views are. It is easy to lose in details and technicalities arguing with him, which at the end of the day are not that important.

At least it's an improvement compare to the past that now he think that others can have a different but valid belief then he does. I consider that quite more open minded for him since this long debate started a few years ago.

I can't belive it.It's not just simple distortion,he is convinced that i said things that are EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of what i said.I know i should calm down,but it's unbelivable.I'm seriously thinking that he could have put togheter something i said to something that someone else said.
It's not that i'm mad at him 'cause he doesn't agree with me,i'm mad 'cause when he respond to my post he's not even opposing my theory,it's something completely different,sometimes is even the opposite........
......i really have to calm down.......i'll read the other recent posts (of other people) that i missed.....

@su5so
And In the battle of pieta, Priscila read the yoki of Clare.
So, why Priscila could not smell the aroma of Clare, if she could read Clare's yoki?
This is just a sugestion:
Maybe her attraction to Raki's smell was something only in the subconscious while she was in "chibi mode",instead when she was in adult mode she knew consciously that she was seeking that smell.
Anyway what SagaraSouske said seems to be the most probable idea,afterall Prissy smelled Claire only 'cause a rod brought Claire's smell near her.

[rafael1932]

MalakTawus

«Ok, i was wrong,it wasn't you that said stronger than Prissy (it was rafael1932,my bad),but this is just a distortion of the form,the meaning is exactly the same......»

People who reads posts know that you never put limits. Is like any claymore could go forever growing yoki power. You just stop when I put that image and you start to see that your theory had a flaw.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=3384250&postcount=703

[MalakTawus]

Maaaan Gooral, now I know why people say you bold too much :heh:

Gooral bolds too much, Malak is holier-then-thou....I wonder what's my annoying part of debating :heh:

Hahahaha!
Ok,ok.I admit that it's true (well,not always,but sometimes it happens and you have the right to say it since i used that with you),but trust me, sometimes you are not so different,lol.
Anyway as long as we don't insult each others i prefer it this way,i can feel the real passion in those posts and make the character different than a "bot" (don't know if i explained this very well.....).

[MalakTawus]

MalakTawus

«Ok, i was wrong,it wasn't you that said stronger than Prissy (it was rafael1932,my bad),but this is just a distortion of the form,the meaning is exactly the same......»

People who reads posts know that you never put limits. Is like any claymore could go forever growing yoki power. You just stop when I put that image and you start to see that your theory had a flaw.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=3384250&postcount=703

OK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Your post was #703

This post (mine) was #686!!!!!!!!!
It really depends on what we mean as "potential".
It's obvious that everyone has a maximum potential that can't surpass (this is true in general,even in real life),but in the end that kind of potential is just a concept,nothing more.
When warriors awakens don't reach this abstract potential,they simply reach 100% of the strenght that they have at that moment,that's why in this board when we talk about hidden potential,we refer to a power that is ALREADY inside of the warriors but that they normally can't use.
The "abstract potential" instead is something completely different,and it's something that depends on training and hard work.
Even a person that could become theoretically a great athlete,if he doesn't train he'll ever become one,and it's not that he has inside of himself an extra strenght that he can't use because he didn't train,he doesn't have ANY EXTRA STRENGHT AT ALL IF HE DIDN'T TRAIN.

Anyone that can count can understand that 686 comes BEFORE 703...
And btw since my concept of limit is something that comes from common sense i would have probably introduced it into the discussion even before than that,it's just that it seemed quite obvious that someone like Yuma can't become as strong as Prissy.I understood that i had to clarify this only when An4rchy99 made a direct question about this point.....and after that i explained this point even better in other posts.....

Edit:sorry for double post

[An4rchy99]

lol :heh: I can't believe the debate is still going.

You know Malak, I think we can all agree on the fact that even if there could be an incremental increase in the maxed yoki cap after training and maturing, there is a limit to the growth in the end. I am pretty sure all of us agree to that.

ps. you really did explain things in detail in your previous posts... I can see the conversation going in circles now :eyespin:. Better switch topics, some people can be stubborn :heh:

EDIT:

And you're telling me that you never said "Yuma can become an Abyssal" lol !!! Not only you're saying exactly that but also you're saying that someone weaker than Yuma can become Abyssal one by using Clare as an example. Talk about shooting your own foot.

He specifically said that someone like Yuma cannot become AO level due to training and hard work! What he and some others have said is every claymores has some potential. Some has greater potential to go further (not coz of training, but they got the extra "just becoz" factor, ask Yagi :heh:), while others like Yuma can improve to a certain level where she can be marked as single digits, but if she never had the talent to begin with (just becoz factor), she can never ever become uber strong. This is a fact we all agreed on.

[Gooral]

@Malak
When Riful said what she said she didn't input any limit. She said: "Until you awaken... become stronger! And then wake up. That way you will become even stronger awakened beings". Where's the limit here, huh? And later when I said that's impossible to become Abyssal with Deneve's or even Miria's stats you said it's not true. That it depended at which point of the training is the warrior. Which means that someone of Yuma's stats now would be a single digit (or even high single digit). And what would stop her from improving further? We could always take into account later, improved stats. We would wait next 7 years and she would improve her stats further and then would have stats like Miria. And then, with such stats according to you she could become an Abyssal. But now you're saying that she can only improve as we've seen her improved. No further. And that there is indeed a limit for everyone. So which is it? You arbitrarily choose who can improve to be abyssal and you can somehow tell that Yuma doesn't have a chance. You can't counter my argument that going by your line of thought Yuma could become AO besides saying that it's obvious and that it's not your line of thought lol. Your reasoning is inconsistent! You're saying that some Claymores can't improve more than others ! How can you tell that Yuma wouldn't be able to improve much more than Miria, huh? How can you tell that even though at the start she would have worse stats than Miria she wouldn't be able to catch up with her? You're saying after all that Miria can catch up to Abyssals, so why can't Yuma catch up to Miria? Maybe she could improve more than Miria could but is just slower at the start just like Miria is slwoer when compared to Rafaela or Galatea? SEE THE INCONSISTENCY NOW?

I think everyone will agree that the main parameter/stat for Claymores is youki. It decides how one is strong, fast and agile. Basic stats are insignificant compared to it. And with HAs Claymore's stats increase but not because they suddenly have more youki but because they have more access to their youki. We know that since in their awakened form their basic stats increase exponentially. Their youki doesn't increase however, it goes from 0%-100%.They're using 100% of it at all times. We know it thanks to Deneve. And we know thanks to others that their youki doesn't increase even though they're stronger warriors.

So it's either:
1) Yuma can't become abyssal because her youki is too weak
2) Yuma can become abyssal after enough training and stats improvement

There is no third option here. If you choose option #1 then by default your whole assessment is wrong and I'm right. Because in the end everything depends on youki. And if someone had more youki at the start no matter what, he would be stronger AB than someone with weaker youki. Riful said it also. And she had a way of knowing it (contrary to what she said to Jean and Clare) because she awakened several warriors and could see the difference that only single digits would become strong ABs. Improvement of ghosts' abilities is the proof that anyone can improve his basic stats with time. That would apply to single digits also. But there is no proof that it improves anything besides basic stats which in the end are insignificant when compared to youki. On the contrary, we have it stated pretty clear that youki doesn't increase but that quality does for HAs which means they have more access to their youma powers.

As for you saying that Alicia was considered the strongest because she was fully awakened, it's BS. Look at her stats. Look at what her handler said when she sensed Riful (and she was in her human form then). Look at what Galatea said: "Just a few steps away are Alicia and Beth who have youma energy that rivals Abyssal Ones". Beth also, even though she didn't awaken. Her youki was comparable to Riful's youki. Look at Luciella. Why wasn't she considered also as the strongest in the annals? She was their abyssal after all (even if for a brief time). And last but not least, why state the obvious? Galatea said they have comparable youki to abyssals, i.e. Alicia in awakened form would be as strong as one. Comparing Abyssal to a Claymore wouldn't be fair at all and would be pointless. Alicia wasn't of Riguald's class, she was of Abyssal's class and as such had to have stats at least as good as Rafaela.

Ahhhhh!!!! I'm saying that her awakening power changes depending on how strong she is when she awakens!!!!So i'm saying that 7 years later when Ali awakens is STRONGER than when she fought Isley's army,'cause in those years she trained and increased her basic powers.And btw i'm simply following the logic that Riful suggested,it's not a strange theory at all,it's super intuitive.
IT WASN'T STATED LIKE THIS IN THE MANGA. In the manga we have it clearly: ALICIA IS COMPLETE. If she could awaken even when she met Riful she would be called complete then !!! What your'e saying is that she is not complete since she can improve further. How is that complete? If she can become stronger then she's not complete. Not to mention that MiB couldn't be sure that Isley wouldn't attack them himself. They knew that he knew that MiB would be prepared for 11 ABs. The problem was Isley himself and they were clearly calm then. They knew that they're relatively safe now.

As for me saying she was 50% weaker I meant exactly what I meant from the start. Alicia had no way of knowing whether she could inflict 50% damage to Riful. She didn't have enough data. She didn't know how tough Riful's body was, how it would react to her slashes. She didn't know how big she was, how massive she was, how fast she was or how strong she was. All she had was youki. It should be obvious that by what I've written I meant what Alicia meant and it was SIMPLE LOGIC. You were the one who tried to complicate that and tried to make Alicia a computer that could say everything without enough data.

And you didn't reply to the part where I clearly showed that youki doesn't increase.

@Anarchy
Yeah, Malak said that. He also said sth else. Read above. I'm only showing the inconsistency in his reasoning.

I wrote:
Look, to become Abyssal you can't have Deneve's or even Miria's stats. You have to be stronger than that, stronger than Irene or Galatea (who had/have much better stats than Miria). The main stat here is youki and I don't see anything to prove that youki can be increased.
To which he replied:
And who said this???
This is pure nonsense.
It depends at which point of the training is the warrior.If a new warrior has already basic stats on the same level as Miria's basic stats now, i'd say that she is a real monster and sure as hell she could become n.1 material (and so a possible AO,if she awakens when she is n.1).
Since IT'S S FACT that basic stats can change (infact if you look at Claire's basic stats (but not only hers) in the databook they obviously don't match with her actual ones),there is nothing wrong for Alisia in the middle of her training to be weaker than Raph.

_______________

Change of subject.

I wonder what would happen if they dropped the blob into the water. Wouldn't that kill both of them? Do they breath in that blob (through osmosis for example)? We know that Claymores have to eat, are getting tired (literally out of breath), sleep, etc. So it's safe to assume they have to breath too. AB also.

And BTW, even though there are such heated discussions here this topic isn't very popular. With every chapter number of views decreases. Previous chapters had 50-60 thousand views. Now it's 20-30 thousand. Is Claymore getting worse or are people bored with it already? Because as you can see above there is a lot to talk about even now.

[An4rchy99]

@Gooral

Thanks for condensing the talk a bit. I know its been going for pages now (even on other sub-sub forums!) :eyespin:

I think everyone will agree that the main parameter/stat for Claymores is youki. It decides how one is strong, fast and agile. Basic stats are insignificant compared to it. And with HAs Claymore's stats increase but not because they suddenly have more youki but because they have more access to their youki.

Now this was a specific point which I was also talking about. I agree 100% to this. In fact I said the same thing about Alicia. To me the 30% increase meant that she was maybe at 60% yoki usage and now MiB would increase her usage by +30% making it 90%... and maybe soon 100% where they claim she is complete. However what determines here is also her initial level of stats including yoki level. This is where I am biased to say that there are claymores who are naturally more talented from the start and have more potential or space for improvement (consider this the "Yagi factor" where he favors certain claymores as this is his world :heh:)

Now about Yuma case I can see why you kept on insisting like that. I realize you're saying it not because Malak said likewise but to make a point. In fact you have a valid argument there because if a theory needs to be consistent you can't pick whom to apply it and whom it doesn't apply (unless we all agree on such a char). And keeping that in mind I know you're saying; what makes us think that Yuma is not talented or to assume she cannot reach AO level ever...? We don't! ;) Who knows in the future Yuma becomes Yagi's girlfriends fav char and he decides that she becomes uber strong and pwns Prissy for all we know http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g379/An4rchy2971/Emots/2pys0vr.png

So infact all here I think what Malak consider is the Yagi factor where at this point he (Yagi) has determined that Yuma is not talented or skilled to begin with (obviously seen by us as well due to her lack of self confidence, initial weakness etc...). Hence his argument... I know this is not perfect reasoning on it, but still we know Yagi can go onto kill uber strong chars on a whim and this changes our opinions. So for now maybe Yuma ain't cut out for the AO level yet but as the story goes if she keeps on learning new stuff and showing us how good she is I am sure we would change out view point. I already have a better perspective of her you know. In fact I feel she closely rivals Claire in her determination to show how strong she could become.

- - - - -
New topic suggestion: Lol drowning the blob :heh:

Well certainly it is living as we all know... but since we don't know any properties of the blob we can't even say for sure it has to breath!! I know this is stupid but hey, its a blob and it sucks life and lives off on yoki... so whats to say all it needs it yoki to survive and all other necessities in our view is insignificant to it?

I don't know whether the popularity is dropping or not... but the story has shifted significantly esp with the KIA of Miria and Claire being out of action + new chars.... but we're seeing new fans with new love :p

[SeanQ]

Okay, so from this chapter...we find out that the organization is rather clueless to what's really going on outside...so...
Hmm...the way I see it...rankings are mainly based more off of unique abilities/mentality of claymores rather than yoki...I don't think the organization really know about the yokis of their claymores, since they misjudged Teresa's, Clare's, and Miata being 4th rank (she's clearly a beast), etc...So yeah, it'd be kinda hard to accept that if a low rank like 40 was to awaken could be as strong as Prissy, but I don't see why not. A rank 40 may suck in basic talent, but if her yoki is insane and went unseen by the organization and awakened...she could just as easily be crazily strong in AB form as Prissy. No one seems capable of sensing a claymore's entire yoki, that's why they go "omg" when they witness an awakening and are like "so much yoki wtf" like Irena @ Prissy, or everyone @ Clare.
The whole potential thing...I think it refers to basic abilities and techniques, rather than yoki...I don't see how a claymore could increase their yoki, but maybe gain more muscles and such is a possibility like Undine (I don't think she was born that way). Because Prissy had the whole yoki cloaking ability, they judged her as the only being able to surpass Teresa and one-up her yoki reading ability, rather than Prissy's yoki > Teresa's being the case.
But yeah, my theory on the ranking system and why you can possibly have a crazy low ranked AB.

[An4rchy99]

@SeanQ

A rank 40 may suck in basic talent, but if her yoki is insane and went unseen by the organization and awakened...she could just as easily be crazily strong in AB form as Prissy.

Its not a sure thing you know. In fact its not the norm! We have seen an awakening of a 30s ranked warrior ranked Katea who was considered really weak even in AB form. So there is evidence to suggest otherwise. And yes! even the accursed databooks shows how pathetic her stats were when she became AB.

No one seems capable of sensing a claymore's entire yoki, that's why they go "omg" when they witness an awakening and are like "so much yoki wtf" like Irena @ Prissy, or everyone @ Clare.

This is not true! When Clare half-awakened and surely went over the limit, Ophelia-sama thought she had awakened and yet was laughing her ass off due to how pathetic her yoki was! In fact no one can say that Ophy was a weak sensor cause she clearly was a unique sensor good enough to realise HA's in particular! Prissy was outright specialized in suppressing her yoki which in turn lead to deceive everyone on her real yoki levels. In fact if I am not mistaken the org knew of her hidden latent powers (maybe juts Rubel?).

[SeanQ]

@SeanQ
This is not true! When Clare half-awakened and surely went over the limit, Ophelia-sama thought she had awakened and yet was laughing her ass off due to how pathetic her yoki was! In fact no one can say that Ophy was a weak sensor cause she clearly was a unique sensor good enough to realise HA's in particular! Prissy was outright specialized in suppressing her yoki which in turn lead to deceive everyone on her real yoki levels. In fact if I am not mistaken the org knew of her hidden latent powers (maybe juts Rubel?).

Uhh where did you read that she laughed at Clare's yoki after half awakening? She was more shocked when Clare was able to get to Raki and still remain as a claymore. She even commented that Clare would not be able to do anything or get out of her grips even if she awakened and yet, Clare did...and this is also when she realized Clare was half-awakened, she didn't read Clare's yoki to figure this out, well kinda did but it was more logic than anything, because it wasn't until Clare awakened her legs...so I think you're giving Ophelia a little too much credit.

[An4rchy99]

She did laugh (as to say you're nothing special) and said she got 2 AB to play with now http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g379/An4rchy2971/Emots/sSW_jedi.gif. (come on don't say you forgot that lovely smile when she decides she wanna play with the 2 of them :p) However in the preceding games which was clearly showing a contrast after Claire got Irene's arm. As she already realised Claire was much more stronger yet not overwhelming, which was true as even Rigaldo also only took her seriously after she got her next power up (legs awakening). Well Ophy is not the perfect example, but she was one of the few claymores to have guts to outright mock AB for being pathetic (not just due to her hatred towards them :p)

- - - -

Lol can't believe I missed your main point. The org being a bunch of dumb asses. That I confer. They have been I think too confident in their own selves and their loyal claymores. Simply, imagine how long they have only had a single idea (a no.10) as their measure to counter warriors attacking the org. I meant specifically for that. And this is even after 100 of years of creating claymores! They ought have thought that someday there would come an uber strong warrior like Prissy and pwn them all and yet look at their level of preparedness. Its pathetic. And only now figuring out a being stronger than AO only when they finally managed to create warrior on par with AO... unless Yagi has hidden a lot from us, the org is as Rimuto (or was it Dae?) said "sticking ducks!"

[su5so]

She did laugh (as to say you're nothing special) and said she got 2 AB to play with now http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g379/An4rchy2971/Emots/sSW_jedi.gif. (come on don't say you forgot that lovely smile when she decides she wanna play with the 2 of them :p) However in the preceding games which was clearly showing a contrast after Claire got Irene's arm. As she already realised Claire was much more stronger yet not overwhelming, which was true as even Rigaldo also only took her seriously after she got her next power up (legs awakening). Well Ophy is not the perfect example, but she was one of the few claymores to have guts to outright mock AB for being pathetic (not just due to her hatred towards them :p)


Ophelia be laughed because I could kill 2 AB weak, because the AB yoki was underestimated by Ophelia, and I doubt that Clare's yoki "when Clare exceeded her limit" was greater much than AB yoki.

In addition, Riful said, when Clare exceeded her limit, her power and speed were better. And for that, should increase her yoki.

[An4rchy99]

Ophelia be laughed because I could kill 2 AB weak, because the AB yoki was underestimated by Ophelia, and I doubt that Clare's yoki "when Clare exceeded her limit" was greater much than AB yoki.

In addition, Riful said, when Clare exceeded her limit, her power and speed were better. And for that, should increase her yoki.

You're kidding right? There was nothing to underestimate! Claire was pathetic back then. She only got better after she got Irene's arm (which was noticed by Ophy herself). And now she is uber strong after so long. Ophy back then had nothing to fear and she would have had Claire and the AB as her snack before lunch http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g379/An4rchy2971/Emots/sFun_mischievious.gif

[MalakTawus]

It seems that people pretend to not understand obvious things so i explain even more clearly:

i said that Yuma can't reach abyssal level only because her talent is not enough to bring her basic stats at the level of a strong n.1 (only those that can reach AO level awakening).
If you stop to act like kids i'm 100000% sure that if before this discussion anyone would have said that Yuma can become n.1 material with training the whole board would have said that he was smoking something (if you deny this you're not honest).
On the contrary we have seen Miria attacking the org alone obliterating even top warrior (n.3 and n.5) like it was nothing,and fighting with those twins without even being serious.....if it wasn't for n.10 trick,she would have destroyed the org on the island single-handed.
So it's quite obvious that Miria is already at n.1 level now (and probably a very strong one),and you know what this means,right?
Yes,it means that following Riful's idea,if Miria awakens she should ba at AO level,so of course when someone says that Miria can't reach AO-level i don't agree.
It's not that i arbitrarily chose which one can obtain and which ones can't at random, there is a clear difference in power between Yuma and Miria,and only blind people can't see this.
Anyway,if you don't agree that Yuma is a warrior that has a low limit,let's put this in a more general way:
-if a warrior has a talent (genetic limit) that can let her reach n.1 level (not a weak n.1), IF AND ONLY IF she actually reach this level (training like Miria,or simply thanx to incredible talent like Prissy),than awakenink she should reach AO-level.

-if a warrior has a genetic limit that stop her growth BEFORE she can reach n.1 level (basically i considered Yuma in this category since to me it's quite obvious that she doesn't have a great talent....), than it's obviously that even if she trains and reach her genetic limit,she'll NEVER reach AO-level after the awakening.


I considered Deneve in the first group since i have the impression that she could become n.1,i admit that it's possible that i'm wrong for her (but not for Miria,she clearly is already n.1 material),but anyway it's the general concept what's important,not single cases.

When Riful said what she said she didn't input any limit. She said: "Until you awaken... become stronger! And then wake up. That way you will become even stronger awakened beings". Where's the limit here, huh?
Are you joking?
Just because Riful said Claire to become stronger DOESN'T MEAN that she can become stronger with no limits,stop saying absurd things!
If you see an athlete and you tell him "Train and get stronger!", does it mean that you belive that with training he'll become the best athlete on the whole world?! OF COURE NOT!!!!!
This simply means that you belive that with training he could become stronger than how he is now, there is ZERO implication to infinite limits!!!!
So please,stop using your distorted logic to Riful's words.

What Riful says is very simple:

-if you train you can become more powerful
-if you become stronger even your awakened form will be more powerful

She didn't say anything about a limit 'cause that's an obvious concept that COMES FROM COMMON SENSE!!!EVERY LIVING BEING HAS A GENETIC LIMIT,EVEN IN REAL WORLD!!!

I really can't see how you can distort a simple and clear theory like this one in the way that you did!

So following Riful's theory, it's obvious that awakening doesn't mean that you reach the max possible power unless you have reached your genetic limit as a claymore.
In other words awakening only make the warrior reach 100% of her power IN THAT MOMENT.

As for you saying that Alicia was considered the strongest because she was fully awakened, it's BS. Look at her stats. Look at what her handler said when she sensed Riful (and she was in her human form then).
Even if Alisia was in human form at that moment,the Mib knew very well what she could do (fight in awakened form) so your point here makes no sense.

And for what you say after that....like i said 10000 times it's true that her yoki rivaled that of Riful even at that time (rivaled,but was inferior),infact like i said to be able to damage Riful at 50% (quite serious damage!) you must be almost as strong as the opponent,you are a bit weak but not A LOT weaker.


Anyway, i re explained Riful's theory in the most clear way that i can think of,if you want to distort again a clear theory like that one i'm not sure i have the energy to repeat over and over the same things that you distort. Let's try to change subject.

By the way, if you train for 7 years you will get a boosts but if you stop that boosts will stop too. So if your yoki power is 500 and that boosts gives you 550 (+ 50) wont you lose that same boosts if you stop training or reduce? Do you believe that you will have that boots forever?
Good question.It probably depends on how yoki power is really produced inside a claymore,i don't have a clear answer.Since we don't know exactly how yoki is produced i'd say that almost anything is possible (and with the same probability) at the moment.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Btw,about OPHELIA, she was clearly a very strong warrior,but don't you think that she was also a bit lucky against that AB?I mean,that AB break her neck,if instead she would have cut her head the conclusion would have been quite different....o r maybe do you think that Ophelia was just playing with the AB?I'm not so sure about that,it seems a bit too dangerous to let the opponent break her neck (btw,i'm not saying that Ophelia was weaker, ok?)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Imo the number of views depends mainly by the chapter,in the last chapters there aren't a lot of new things to discuss if we compare (for example) to the chapter where the destroyer began her attacks with the rods (those chapters made everyone talking A LOT about the chapter itself)....but i think that views will increase again when chapters like that will appear again (or at least that's what i hope).....afterall ch.107 made 62000 views,and it's really good imo.

[FormerAbyssalone]

Ok, lets talk about long ms Anna will last and what kind of Resident Evil like monster(s) Dae is gonna come up with.^^

[Shiek927]

I wonder what would happen if they dropped the blob into the water. Wouldn't that kill both of them? Do they breath in that blob (through osmosis for example)? We know that Claymores have to eat, are getting tired (literally out of breath), sleep, etc. So it's safe to assume they have to breath too. AB also.

And BTW, even though there are such heated discussions here this topic isn't very popular. With every chapter number of views decreases. Previous chapters had 50-60 thousand views. Now it's 20-30 thousand. Is Claymore getting worse or are people bored with it already? Because as you can see above there is a lot to talk about even now.

I think "regular" fans or people who just peek and leave, hope to actually see debates based on the chapter itself. When they see us talking about whatever, they don't show up anymore.

Obviously the 110 thread is the "whatever" thread and yes, their is always plenty to talk about....but "normal" fans just don't have the endurance or interest in these kinds of things.

Yes, it could also be that people are also just moving on....with the amount of new manga/anime stuff pouring out on a daily basis, it's very very difficult to stay in one place for long if you want to stay on top of everything new that's coming out. Keeping that in mind, it's a show of this one's longetivity that it has managed to still stay around for so long...nevertheless, people have shorter and shorter interests in staying in one place for long, and want to see and read everything; and when they see us talking about random whatever, they don't bother showing up.

....Who knows really; this is just one theory, and their are probably a million. I know the chapter itself has alot to do with it; the action-packed chapters definitely get alot of attention, not the ordinary talking ones.

Anyway, I think so long as the bodies are safe from harm, everyone inside will be okay for an indefinite period - I have a theory that being inside there is, physically, like being kept alive in a life-support system or in cryostatis or what-have-you; their might even be subconscious defenses should anyone try to attack the blob, including dumping it underwater....Renee after all, for example, tried to enter it mentally, and she was torn apart.

[MalakTawus]

Ok, lets talk about long ms Anna will last and what kind of Resident Evil like monster(s) Dae is gonna come up with.^^

I'm just preying that they will have REAL and interesting personalities,not like the twins and the AFs.
If this wish will be granted i'll be satisfied (well,tbh i'll be REALLY satisfied only when Claire come out of that blob.....).

[su5so]

You're kidding right? There was nothing to underestimate! Claire was pathetic back then. She only got better after she got Irene's arm (which was noticed by Ophy herself). And now she is uber strong after so long. Ophy back then had nothing to fear and she would have had Claire and the AB as her snack before lunch http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g379/An4rchy2971/Emots/sFun_mischievious.gif

I believe that you do not understand me. :confused:
I wanted to expose that Clare was weak 7 years ago. But when she exceeded her limit, increased Clare's yoki.
¡¡I'm not saying that greatly increase her yoki!!, but yes increased something. Her true potential came when she awoke his body members. Without this awakening, she was a weak claymore, swift sword exception. "Referring to yoki level, strength and speed".

About Ophelia underestimated the AB, I meant that she thought would defeat him easily, but we all saw that AB died for inattention. Otherwise, Ophelia had not won easily. In fact, she could have died by AB if he had pierced Ophelia's head with a tentacle and not only break the head.

[Throne Invader]

Bah... I'm so late yet again. Been busy with school and stuff. Anyways I'm seriously loving our new Claymore single digit Anastasia and I love her title as well. She's even prettier than Flora and Teresa somehow.

Alot of dirt has been exposed about the organization and about that experimenting on numbers one. Our fearsome 7 against a bunch of number 1 zombies. How scary.

[rafael1932]

Bah... I'm so late yet again. Been busy with school and stuff. Anyways I'm seriously loving our new Claymore single digit Anastasia and I love her title as well. She's even prettier than Flora and Teresa somehow.

Alot of dirt has been exposed about the organization and about that experimenting on numbers one. Our fearsome 7 against a bunch of number 1 zombies. How scary.

dont put her in the same level than teresa- her bust was much larger!!!

[revan5]

dont put her in the same level than teresa- her bust was much larger!!!

Hey now, there's more to women than their busts. Well, to be truthful, you're missing out on the fact that some men prefer thinner women with smaller busts to more voluptuous but thicker women with big busts. Breasts after all are mostly composed of fat deposits. In general men prefer larger chests on women (http://jenapincott.wordpress.com/2009/01/25/how-much-does-cup-size-really-matter/) but not all men.

There are plenty of female celebrities that do just fine without enormous or large chests:

Kiera Knightley: http://www.celebrity-pictures.ca/Celebrities/Keira-Knightley/Keira-Knightley-67.JPG
Natalie Portman: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_AxaqtAfvLSc/TOPB0VASS4I/AAAAAAAAUIA/WfUef7HWgAo/s1600/natalie-portman.jpg
Emma Watson: http://www.ayushveda.com/mens-magazine/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/emma-watson2620.jpg
Naomi Watts: http://img.listal.com/image/5946/600full-naomi-watts.jpg

There are of course celebrities with larger assets:

Halle Berry: http://www.wallpaperbase.com/wallpapers/celebs/halleberry/halle_berry_6.jpg
Rosario Dawson: http://www.kingroom.com/movies/2006/actress/rosario-dawson.bmp

and then really large assets:

Scarlett Johansson: http://hamaraphotos.com/hollywood/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/scarlett-johansson.jpg


So as you can see, one doesn't have to always be heavy-chested to make it in Hollywood. Great acting skills and a nice face seem to matter just as much if not more. I would think really large breasts would be a big inconvenience for claymores. The last thing they need is to have their chest slowing them down and causing them discomfort as they run. There's a balance going on here. Bigger chests may on average be rated more attractive but if they get too large they cause major problems with vigorous activity. This is probably one reason why Yagi has avoided the chest sizes seen in Bleach for instance.

[irvinethearcher]

What i am asking myself is what happened to priscilla after the isley fight until she left the wounded raki?
My theory,and i hope you correct me on this, is that priscilla regressed to childhood.
When she was with raki she WAS the innocent child but her awakened personality was still somehow supervising her from the subconscious but was unable to break free. Her awakened personality remembered the smell of raki and made the child personality like raki. Her awakened personality broke free when she smelled clare on the rods. The strong smell of clare triggered the breaking free of the awakened priscilla personality.

Why i think it is that complicated is because i highly doubt that awakened priscilla personality could resist snacking on people for seven years. We saw how greedy she was before she met isley.

IMO my theory is the only rational explanation for priscilla's behaviour over those seven years.

What do you think?

[Shiek927]

Bah... I'm so late yet again. Been busy with school and stuff. Anyways I'm seriously loving our new Claymore single digit Anastasia and I love her title as well. She's even prettier than Flora and Teresa somehow.

Alot of dirt has been exposed about the organization and about that experimenting on numbers one. Our fearsome 7 against a bunch of number 1 zombies. How scary.

She's definitely the most regal looking out of any character thus far; fits her name.

Yagi definitely intentionally tried to make her as pretty as possible; throwing Teresa, Flora, Galatea and more into her.

Personally though, I'm unimpressed :heh:

[irvinethearcher]

@shiek
you are the priscilla specialist, perhaps you know what happened.
the last 6 weaks were damn hard for me and i have a lot of work so i am needing some update to keep up with the manga :heh:

[FormerAbyssalone]

I'm just preying that they will have REAL and interesting personalities,not like the twins and the AFs.
If this wish will be granted i'll be satisfied (well,tbh i'll be REALLY satisfied only when Claire come out of that blob.....).

Well I'm contradicting myself but, I kinda hope they're are past #1s(except Teresa) just so we can see what they look like. Although I doubt they'll have personalities being reanimated corpses and all.:uhoh:

[irvinethearcher]

I think they will use the same technique as they used with the feeders some kind of mind synchro. Dae has the personality of a very obedient claymore he will install like an operating system on the dead bodies. They will all have this personality pattern and therefore they will be easy to control.
At least i would do it that way.
The only question is how dae will revive those #1s.
And what does he intend to do with priscilas arm? Making three more feeders, super feeders?

[MalakTawus]

Well I'm contradicting myself but, I kinda hope they're are past #1s(except Teresa) just so we can see what they look like. Although I doubt they'll have personalities being reanimated corpses and all.
I hope they'll use past n.1s flash and a bit of Prissy's arm and fuse them in living girls ,if not i'll have an HUGE doubt: how can Dae infuse LIFE in corpse?
If Dae uses living girls i can still hope that those 3 monsters will have a personality (fingers crossed).

[irvinethearcher]

The way i understood it was that day wanted to make three superfeeders out of priscilla's arm probably synchronicing them with the blueprint of the feedertype which managed to bring down isley and is stronger than the riful type.
So it has the speed of priscilla and the exp of the isley feeders. A terrifying feeder.
Perhaps he want them to kill priscilla?
Then clare is in danger because the feeders will try to eat the statue helen and the others brought near rabona.
Reviving the #1 is IMO a different project rimuto prohibited until now.

[revan5]

She's definitely the most regal looking out of any character thus far; fits her name.

Yagi definitely intentionally tried to make her as pretty as possible; throwing Teresa, Flora, Galatea and more into her.

Personally though, I'm unimpressed :heh:

Ah, good spot Shiek! Take a look at Queen Rania's hair: http://en.academic.ru/pictures/enwiki/81/Queen_Rania_-_World_Economic_Forum_Annual_Meeting_Davos_2008.jp g

Hmm, it almost looks like Yagi is copying from royalty. I guess he's realizing that he needs to branch out more on hairstyles, came across Rania and said, "Hey, she would make a good-looking claymore!"

[Shiek927]

Ah, good spot Shiek! Take a look at Queen Rania's hair: http://en.academic.ru/pictures/enwiki/81/Queen_Rania_-_World_Economic_Forum_Annual_Meeting_Davos_2008.jp g

Hmm, it almost looks like Yagi is copying from royalty. I guess he's realizing that he needs to branch out more on hairstyles, came across Rania and said, "Hey, she would make a good-looking claymore!"

......what? :heh:

Revan, I was just joking because her name is Anastasia, like the Russian princess; which is why I said she was regal-looking; that's it :heh:; anything else is coincidence :heh: :p.

But like I said, I'm not impressed; my favorite kind of beauty is more is less; the women without excessive make-up and excessive everything(http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=3105473&highlight=eowyn#post3105473); natural beauties who aren't vain and show-offy.

That's why I prefer Miria to Galatea or Teresa for example; because she is much more "earthy" and is also unaware of her good-looks, whereas the others are aware of it and kind of smug about it.

----

Irvine, as you say, she regressed back into her humanity; what you say isn't incorrect for the most part, just that her malevolent Slayer-killing persona was "asleep" and surpressed, not supervising, as Priscilla refused to eat and delve into her power anymore; a tragically futile effort as we saw. It's best honestly to look at the two of them as completely different people sharing one body, like Bruce Banner and the Hulk, as Priscilla doesn't have any memories of her time as an Awakened Being for example; a simple way of differentiating the two is facially. Priscilla for the most part looks soft and baby-ish; where her Awakened persona is dominant however, she noticeably looks "sharper", older and, well, more evil. It truly is an incredible parallel; how black and white the two sides of her is....even as an Awakened Being, not even Riful and her love of torture competes with how cruel her Awakened persona is.

Why their is this split, mentally and in personality, is unknown, though I think it's simply because she never truly wanted to awaken; it was an accident. Their probably is much much more to do with it, no matter how you look at it, Priscilla never truly had a "complete" normal transformation into an Awakened Being; rather then rampaging and eventually calming down as the mind, and person, takes a hold of themselves, understanding and accepting what they have become, Priscilla, most likely unconsciously (the rampage as a whole, was unconscious I say), fought that; sparing the little girls in the towns for example until eventually, she came across Isley, unconscious and instinctively fought him (because if her mind was truly there and focused, Isley would have been obliterated in seconds), and regressed back into her humanity.

Bare in mind though that this is also my own rational explanation; it's getting harder and harder to make them because Yagi messed up and complicated everything with this whole "scent" thing.

(Roflmao, though thanks for referring to me as the "Priscilla specialist" :heh:)

[rafael1932]

Hey now, there's more to women than their busts. Well, to be truthful, you're missing out on the fact that some men prefer thinner women with smaller busts to more voluptuous but thicker women with big busts. Breasts after all are mostly composed of fat deposits. In general men prefer larger chests on women (http://jenapincott.wordpress.com/2009/01/25/how-much-does-cup-size-really-matter/) but not all men.

There are plenty of female celebrities that do just fine without enormous or large chests:

Kiera Knightley: http://www.celebrity-pictures.ca/Celebrities/Keira-Knightley/Keira-Knightley-67.JPG
Natalie Portman: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_AxaqtAfvLSc/TOPB0VASS4I/AAAAAAAAUIA/WfUef7HWgAo/s1600/natalie-portman.jpg
Emma Watson: http://www.ayushveda.com/mens-magazine/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/emma-watson2620.jpg
Naomi Watts: http://img.listal.com/image/5946/600full-naomi-watts.jpg

There are of course celebrities with larger assets:

Halle Berry: http://www.wallpaperbase.com/wallpapers/celebs/halleberry/halle_berry_6.jpg
Rosario Dawson: http://www.kingroom.com/movies/2006/actress/rosario-dawson.bmp

and then really large assets:

Scarlett Johansson: http://hamaraphotos.com/hollywood/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/scarlett-johansson.jpg


So as you can see, one doesn't have to always be heavy-chested to make it in Hollywood. Great acting skills and a nice face seem to matter just as much if not more. I would think really large breasts would be a big inconvenience for claymores. The last thing they need is to have their chest slowing them down and causing them discomfort as they run. There's a balance going on here. Bigger chests may on average be rated more attractive but if they get too large they cause major problems with vigorous activity. This is probably one reason why Yagi has avoided the chest sizes seen in Bleach for instance.

The concept of prettiness is really subjective, they can say that the crow for the miss universe is for that girl but I can find girls more pretty when I walk on the street. Also, just because they appear in Hollywood does not mean that they are that pretty, their father or mother may be there helping in her career. In the end you look for to that girl and you may like or not. You don’t have to think because your brain is the 1 that says that she is pretty, it’s instinct. Your genes makes your brain that way.

The breats is not the only thing that guys like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jNBFY5uthU

yagi, I think, wants to be different, wants to be more real. That way, he can not make girls with big breats- just look to Teresa. Even her breast is pretty big to be considered normal- sometimes is like they are really big. Is like she is using breats armor or silicone.:uhoh:

« I would think really large breasts would be a big inconvenience for claymores.»

Cmon don’t you like to see all those things going up and down, sometimes to the right and them down and then…. * slobber falling from the mouth*:eyespin:

irvinethearcher

.That mib has made in the past the same experience with n 1’s
. the pris hand can be use to increase the average power of the numbers 1’s ( he wants to make them 3) like anar4chy99 theory – mixing DNA of different warriors
. abyssal feeders’ must have an target and all of them are now dead( the abyssals).
. if the org doesn’t know of the ghost’s( they never talked before of them), they might use the hand to feed the new abyssal eaters. Then this ones will guide the new numbers 1 to the new menace, pretty much like the abyssal eaters guide the twins to riful.
. this might activate the bubble to work somehow.

Gooral

Drowning the bubble might activate the guys in there, I would not do anything ( actually, I would put the bubble in the main land and kick it lol)
No 1 will do that … , maybe the org, but I can think that they might go with a knife to remove a sample, and then another 1. Hey, wait just another 1…. Ahhh… that thing is moving…ahhhh…

edit: the new menace would be pris of course, the 1 who surprise the destroiyer, the owner of the hand

[MalakTawus]

Crazy theory:
What if Claire and Prissy fight in the "mental world" untill one of the two can completely destroy the soul of the other and take finally complete control of the whole body (i mean Prissy flash + Claire/Teresa flash + destroyer)???
The final result would be a semi-goddess,lol.........it would be funny to see something like that,the only problem is that this would break the story since it would be too strong for anyone else.

[Fenrir_valindri]

Unless they decide to introduce the Main-land and the Dragon's turn out to be ridiculous, but yeah, a combined being like that would be ridiculous.

[An4rchy99]

Crazy theory:
What if Claire and Prissy fight in the "mental world" untill one of the two can completely destroy the soul of the other and take finally complete control of the whole body (i mean Prissy flash + Claire/Teresa flash + destroyer)???
The final result would be a semi-goddess,lol.........it would be funny to see something like that,the only problem is that this would break the story since it would be too strong for anyone else.

Well not so crazy... because the outcome has this result as well (only difference is one of 'em absorbs the other). However I still see this unlikely (as unlikely as Yagi has come to kill Miria :uhoh: :heh:). Though if Prissy is gone at this point the story runs in a bump in finding good char who are strong... and I don't think a zombie can replace Prissy yet.

My bet is something breaks the spell and something is changed in both of them (maybe not crazy ass anymore?). Unless they are again at their throats like Mireille and Chloe :heh:

Wonder when this "DoD" faction (story) is gonna kick in http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g379/An4rchy2971/Emots/sCo_blink.gif

[irvinethearcher]

Crazy theory:
What if Claire and Prissy fight in the "mental world" untill one of the two can completely destroy the soul of the other and take finally complete control of the whole body (i mean Prissy flash + Claire/Teresa flash + destroyer)???
The final result would be a semi-goddess,lol.........it would be funny to see something like that,the only problem is that this would break the story since it would be too strong for anyone else.

I thought that this would happen a long time ago. I founded a group
you may join, if you want;) I think that if clare and theresa will indeed become the twin goddesses the manga will be over. So it could happen only at the end of the manga.
Yeah, in the end probably a fight in VR will decide everything.

Bare in mind though that this is also my own rational explanation; it's getting harder and harder to make them because Yagi messed up and complicated everything with this whole "scent" thing.
I don't know if he really messed up. IMO the scent explains a lot.
How priscilla and raki could met, why priscilla liked raki and why priscilla(sensing the strong scent of clare in the flesh of the destroyer) was finally able to breaking bad again.

[Gooral]

(...)
Well certainly it is living as we all know... but since we don't know any properties of the blob we can't even say for sure it has to breath!! I know this is stupid but hey, its a blob and it sucks life and lives off on yoki... so whats to say all it needs it yoki to survive and all other necessities in our view is insignificant to it? (...)
Yeah, I was thinking similarly with the exception of Priscilla. Raciella can suck the life of other living beings but we can't tell the same about Priscilla. And her regeneration wouldn't help her with the lack of oxygen (although, if she could modify her lungs so that she could extract oxygen from water then it wouldn't be a problem but it would be rather complicated, I'm not sure even Isley could do sth like that).
Anyway, if this blob didn't float but went to the bottom if they dropped it into the sea I wouldn't see a way for them to get out of it or be awakened. From what we know thanks to Galatea Clare wouldn't let Priscilla get out even if Priscilla wanted to. Her only wish is to contain her there. So I think it could be a solution to Priscilla problem. Plus, even if they weren't dead no disturbance would awaken them, since there are no water-awakend being that we know of and there shouldn't be youki in the water that could break the cage they're in.

[MalakTawus]

The blob doesn't need air to survive imo and she almost surely doesn't even need to absorb energy from outside.
First of all Raph and Luc fused were able to survive without absorbing any energy and remaining COMPLETELY immobile, they weren't breathing at all (at least this is my impression,since when Riful saw even an imperceptible move she was really surprised,infact later she thought to have seen wrong).
And second if you think about it,if air was a real problem,Claire and Prissy would be already dead by a long time since there's no way that they are breathing atm.
It could be possible that Claire and Prissy are completely fused with the destroyer and so we can consider the blob as the ONLY body,and this blob could be able to absorb O2 from the air one way or another (but if she can do this she probably would be able to absorb O2 even from water)....but since Raph and Luciela could survive without breathing i don't see why the blob would need air (if not 4ever,at least or a relatively long time)

[Shiek927]

Unless they decide to introduce the Main-land and the Dragon's turn out to be ridiculous, but yeah, a combined being like that would be ridiculous.

Which I'm hoping they never do; if Yagi wants to do the mainland and all that, he's better off leaving that stuff for a seperate sequel. The story is already long enough.

I don't know if he really messed up. IMO the scent explains a lot.
How priscilla and raki could met, why priscilla liked raki and why priscilla(sensing the strong scent of clare in the flesh of the destroyer) was finally able to breaking bad again.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=3331180#post3331180

He messed up Irvine; Yagi did that to make Priscilla want to chase after Claire as well to push along the confrontation; he basically threw a wrench at everything we know about her, which makes it even more frustrating before to explain everything.

[Gooral]

First of all Raph and Luc fused were able to survive without absorbing any energy and remaining COMPLETELY immobile, they weren't breathing at all (at least this is my impression,since when Riful saw even an imperceptible move she was really surprised,infact later she thought to have seen wrong).

They didn't need to absorb any energy since they've had high amounts of it. Claymores can survive without food or water many days. Priscilla years. People can survive many days if they're sleeping only. Hibernating animals can survive months (and they don't need to get rid of waste the normal way). Since Rafaela and Luciella were unconscious and it looked like they were sleeping they would have even less need to eat, etc. You wouldn't notice shallow breathing easily (and during sleep you breath shallowly) and you wouldn't notice their diaphragm moving since they've had their stomachs fused.

And second if you think about it,if air was a real problem,Claire and Prissy would be already dead by a long time since there's no way that they are breathing atm.
If there isn't osmosis in Claymore world then you're probably right. But we have no way of knowing that air doesn't get through the blob to them.

[MalakTawus]

I don't understand what's so surprising for Prissy to chase after Claire's scent,in the end what she's really chasing is Teresa's scent,the source of her trauma.
I agree that Prissy really cares for Raki when she is in chibi-mode and she proably didn't even know consciously in the beginning why she liked Raki's scent.....the problem is that it seems that her adult personality (that was "trapped" in her subconscious) had a clearer vision of what was going on.
In the end, even if adult-personality is different from chibi-personality, she's always Priscilla so not only she couldn't kill him,but even if she used cruel words, it's a fact that she saved his life.

They didn't need to absorb any energy since they've had high amounts of it.
Well,it's the same for the blob,no?

You wouldn't notice shallow breathing easily (and during sleep you breath shallowly) and you wouldn't notice their diaphragm moving since they've had their stomachs fused.
True,but i think that in all those years Riful would have noticed even the more invisible movement no matter how little it was.....not to mention that since she was trying to wake her up,if i was in her place i would have already tried to suffocate her to see if she reacted,do you really that in all those years she wouldn't think of something so basilar?
But anyway i could be wrong about this,it's just that i'm not so sure about the contrary.

[An4rchy99]

... since there are no water-awakend being that we know of and there shouldn't be youki in the water that could break the cage they're in.

Its funny with all sorts of AB we have seen so far, there aren't any water based AB or AB that prefers attacking in water (maybe the AB attacking Dee Dee and co?)...

We have seen winged (proly insect based), and mostly animal themed or insect themed AB's and some humanoid AB's but no fish based AB :heh:

[Gooral]

I thought someone might bite this. Maybe it has sth to do where they awakened or where they lived most of the time? If they lived on a ship all the time and were swimming regularly, who knows, maybe there would be AB like that.

[MalakTawus]

Considering that AB are more connected to humans than fishes..........but it's true that it's a little strange that we haven't seen even one with fish's characteristics.

But anyway i really don't see the problem of the blob dropped into water.......i mean,even if we assume that she really needs oxigen to survive,it's not that now that she's in air she's obtaining this oxigen in a conventional way like any other animal,at best she's absorbing it from the "skin".......so if she has no problem at doing something like that i wouldn't be surprise if she can absorb oxigen fron skin even underwater.....

[Shiek927]

Well, Ophelia's form was definitely the most aquatic, I would say.

[Gooral]

Unless inside this blob they look like Raciella or are even more separated and breath normally thanks to the air that goes through this box/blob. If they're melted as we see from the outside then I can't see how they could separate themselves, rather they would be fused forever and the stronger one would come out on top.

[MalakTawus]

I can't see how they could separate themselves
Well Claire already separated from the destroyer before (we are not sure that she was really fused,but there is a good probability that that was the case).......

[rafael1932]

Its funny with all sorts of AB we have seen so far, there aren't any water based AB or AB that prefers attacking in water (maybe the AB attacking Dee Dee and co?)...

We have seen winged (proly insect based), and mostly animal themed or insect themed AB's and some humanoid AB's but no fish based AB :heh:

that's why i say that they put dna of animals into a yoma. once they need aquatic animals, they will change acordeling

edit: the prob in puting the buble in the water is fiding someone capable of that. who? like i said before there is no 1 capable of that

[Nixl]

I thought Ophelia's form was a python/boa constrictor, a snake that slowly crushes its prey before devouring it. I thought it was fitting of her sadistic personality as she slowly tried to crush Claire. I still think AB forms pretty much reflect most character's traits in some sense. That is to say the forms of main characters, rather than canon fodder ABs, which are just random and as far I can tell have very little to do with any possible character traits. As far as Claire, if the Destroyer was in fact a reflection of herself rather than Rafaela (meaning Claire got it switched around), then Claire's trait was her relationship with Teresa, hence the twin goddess, but deep down she was just pure spite(the black cloud).

Priscilla survived 7 years without guts. By the point something is as strong as Priscilla/Destroyer, I don't think most things matter anymore. The blob is a self contained system for now.

[irvinethearcher]

Irvine, as you say, she regressed back into her humanity; what you say isn't incorrect for the most part, just that her malevolent Slayer-killing persona was "asleep" and surpressed, not supervising

I am not so sure about that. The child personality couldn't know how theresa or clare smelled. The only personality who knew this was the awakened personality. Therefore i think the child was somehow supervised. I don't know if you have ever seen Babylon 5 and knew Talia Winters the blonde bombshell.

I thought Ophelia's form was a python/boa constrictor, a snake that slowly crushes its prey before devouring it. I thought it was fitting of her sadistic personality as she slowly tried to crush Claire. I still think AB forms pretty much reflect most character's traits in some sense. That is to say the forms of main characters, rather than canon fodder ABs, which are just random and as far I can tell have very little to do with any possible character traits. As far as Claire, if the Destroyer was in fact a reflection of herself rather than Rafaela (meaning Claire got it switched around), then Claire's trait was her relationship with Teresa, hence the twin goddess, but deep down she was just pure spite(the black cloud).
So you think it was clare who choose the twin-goddess form for the destroyer, not rafaella? Interesting.
I think we got a glimpse on clare's inner being when she tried to awaken to beat priscilla but was unable because jean died for her.

[Shiek927]

100% right Nixl; I've said for the longest time that AB's somehow reflect the characters a bit; while I wouldn't say they control how they will look like....many many things go into how they turn out looking, including a bit of imagination, their own personality etc etc.

I am not so sure about that. The child personality couldn't know how theresa or clare smelled. The only personality who knew this was the awakened personality. Therefore i think the child was somehow supervised. I don't know if you have ever seen Babylon 5 and knew Talia Winters the blonde bombshell.

Irvine, we don't even know if any of this scent stuff even applies to her. This scent stuff is only something the Awakened persona seems to have been searching for; everytime we saw her humanity, this was never brought up at all. The whole topic wasn't even known to us until recent chapters.

It's possible she was manipulated in a sense, if that's what you mean; the word supervised though, implies that they were working together which can't be right *scratches head

Why are you bringing up Teresa? she has nothing to do with this...or at least, I hope not :O.

...It's complicated, I know :heh:; I'm still holding out that Yagi will streamline things in the upcoming chapters and give us answers, like he did with Dietrich.

[rafael1932]

NIXL
clare is controling the destroiyer with rafaela memories. acordilly with your theory, she has already a awakened form that spider type

I am not saying that awakened can control to some level how they look like. For instance isley could control both hands to look like he wanted, but I always look at that like it was a special power of him. Like riful head that was immune to damage and that Rafaela sister that could eat yoki rods. I think that we cann't confuse ourselves with wishful awakened form ( like the destroyer twins form) with true form ( the awakened form inside destroyer that look like many faces). I know, I know, in the end they are theories
My theory is:
The org puts inside dna of animals that they like, for ex. spiders. Spiders are a lot fast and so they have a very high metabolism. So in the end they also produce a lot of energy ( in this case yoki power) to make the animal move. Clare great power ( at leats at some level) could be explained by this. Higher metabolism requires great yoki production. Finally we would see a part of the dna inside clare after her awakened since she got a lot of different dna inside her

[An4rchy99]

I thought Ophelia's form was a python/boa constrictor, a snake that slowly crushes its prey before devouring it. I thought it was fitting of her sadistic personality as she slowly tried to crush Claire. I still think AB forms pretty much reflect most character's traits in some sense. That is to say the forms of main characters, rather than canon fodder ABs, which are just random and as far I can tell have very little to do with any possible character traits. As far as Claire, if the Destroyer was in fact a reflection of herself rather than Rafaela (meaning Claire got it switched around), then Claire's trait was her relationship with Teresa, hence the twin goddess, but deep down she was just pure spite(the black cloud).

Priscilla survived 7 years without guts. By the point something is as strong as Priscilla/Destroyer, I don't think most things matter anymore. The blob is a self contained system for now.

I also agree to this. I thought Ophelia was more like the mythical medusa (though she lacks some physical features, it reflected her being cold and sadistic). I wonder why Prissy ended up as a mosquito then :heh:

[rafael1932]

I also agree to this. I thought Ophelia was more like the mythical medusa (though she lacks some physical features, it reflected her being cold and sadistic). I wonder why Prissy ended up as a mosquito then :heh:

by going in your theory, pris is much more than an angel that reflects her Innocence and fight against evil, before awakening.

Try to explain the butterfly form jean, which means beautiful and prettiness, with her looks. Also there is nothing with her form that reflects the knighthood of her ( she would like seem like a horse like isley.

edit: lol.. fight againts evil, against teresa..lol ( well, from the perpective of pris of course

[Falcor]

Well Claire already separated from the destroyer before (we are not sure that she was really fused,but there is a good probability that that was the case).......

http://84gs5g.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pqVQh1vibM5oCaApFh7V_0-06SHlEvXiaKmlHSAl8JB8s4MP0UEJ_-qQYGwfiEo4XXIfvxMD01wgUaBnjjCOmWl1zl96zoXho/Claymore%20v17%20c93%20-%2010.png?psid=1

Looking closely, you can definitely see that Clare's body was fused and is emerging from the Destroyer in this scene.

[clarakiss~]

i wonder prissy leaving her arm with raki and the org getting in possession of it will be her downfall, just like how isley sending the awakened beings to the org's hq was a mistake on his part. :)

[rafael1932]

http://84gs5g.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pqVQh1vibM5oCaApFh7V_0-06SHlEvXiaKmlHSAl8JB8s4MP0UEJ_-qQYGwfiEo4XXIfvxMD01wgUaBnjjCOmWl1zl96zoXho/Claymore%20v17%20c93%20-%2010.png?psid=1

Looking closely, you can definitely see that Clare's body was fused and is emerging from the Destroyer in this scene.

The 2 image show us that her flesh is made of the awakened form of the destroyer . So could we expected 99% yoki release next time? Her mind could not be totally converted to awakened form- so she would not eat flesh but her body fully awakened like the twins. I wonder if we can see it finally the power ( that 1 hidden)

Clarakiss
The org does not know of the ghosts existence. So, their main target is now the pris. I wonder if they are going to feed some abyssal feeders with some part of the hand to follow the track and use the new experiments of dae ( those new numbers 1) maybe they disrupt the bubble

[An4rchy99]

@rafael

by going in your theory, pris is much more than an angel that reflects her Innocence and fight against evil, before awakening.

An angel with the devils horn... hmmm interesting. A psychotic angel with the most sexiest smirk as of the latest chapter (added to her hidden talents, just like Claire can give us her stripper smile :heh:)

- - - - -

So could we expected 99% yoki release next time? Her mind could not be totally converted to awakened form- so she would not eat flesh but her body fully awakened like the twins. I wonder if we can see it finally the power ( that 1 hidden)

She already tried a full release (or according to her abandoning her humanity) and awakened her limbs. I doubt thats her 99% form :uhoh:

- - - - -

@clarakiss

Prissy got one huge advantage going for her which Isley didn't. MiB don't know whom the arm belongs on the other hand they have been preparing to take down Isley and namely the AO's for decades. I do sense they would take drastic measures now to counter the additional threat hence the new warriors (and maybe zombie no.1's...)

[Ryuken]

@rafael

@clarakiss

Prissy got one huge advantage going for her which Isley didn't. MiB don't know whom the arm belongs on the other hand they have been preparing to take down Isley and namely the AO's for decades. I do sense they would take drastic measures now to counter the additional threat hence the new warriors (and maybe zombie no.1's...)

I think deciding to create three worriers from the arm is proof that the org is willing to go the distance as to protect it's interest.:)

[MalakTawus]

Looking closely, you can definitely see that Clare's body was fused and is emerging from the Destroyer in this scene.
That's exactly what i was saying.

Btw we are assiming something that we can't be sure of:
We don't know if Claire's body was reconstructed with destroyer's flash, it would make sense even if her body was reconstructed EXACTLY how it was before merging (basically with her own flash)

[su5so]

http://84gs5g.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pqVQh1vibM5oCaApFh7V_0-06SHlEvXiaKmlHSAl8JB8s4MP0UEJ_-qQYGwfiEo4XXIfvxMD01wgUaBnjjCOmWl1zl96zoXho/Claymore%20v17%20c93%20-%2010.png?psid=1

Looking closely, you can definitely see that Clare's body was fused and is emerging from the Destroyer in this scene.

After I see this picture, I wonder if Clare lost her arm to Irene.
Because she is being regenerated by the destructor. What do you think?

[FormerAbyssalone]

That's exactly what i was saying.

Btw we are assiming something that we can't be sure of:
We don't know if Claire's body was reconstructed with destroyer's flash, it would make sense even if her body was reconstructed EXACTLY how it was before merging (basically with her own flash)

Well if Clare's body was reconstructed once before, then there is no reason why it can be restored agian. Although I would like 2 see somekind of awakend form of Clare during the Priscilla battle.

U know maybe she'll have somekind of awakend form during a mental battle in the blob.:)

[Shiek927]

I also agree to this. I thought Ophelia was more like the mythical medusa (though she lacks some physical features, it reflected her being cold and sadistic). I wonder why Prissy ended up as a mosquito then

Medusa....nah; not all that similar. She has snakes in her hair, but it's pretty different :/.

Roflmao, Priscilla, in my mind, represents a fallen angel; which is why she has angelic features, but they all look ruined and destroyed; to symbolize her downfall.

Isley was a Black Knight; evil, but had noble traits; aristocratic and lordly, possessing many weapons.....Rigardo was bloodthirsy, hence the King of the Jungle (a lion)....

and so on and so forth...

---

Clarakiss, Isley sending the AB's to Staff wasn't his downfall, not at all...he did that on purpose as part of his strategy to hide what his true target was (Luciella), not to mention eliminate the "chaff from the wheat"; he had no use for them anymore since he found Priscilla.

[An4rchy99]

@Shieky

I was just reflecting her persona. We know she was very vengeful and sadistic... I did say she lacks physical char :p

[rafael1932]

I think deciding to create three worriers from the arm is proof that the org is willing to go the distance as to protect it's interest.:)

what you mean by interest? their own lifes?:D

still, if they are going to create new warriors or activate the dead this is all i need to confirm my idea of irene arm can't be seen as un upgrade, more like an inconvinience

My theory is that clare is the same or better than teresa in terms of yoki power ( i am more inclined for being even more stronger because yoma makes a warrior several times more stronger than the 2 in a group)
The new arm only would be better then Irene arm if clare train with him long enough. I would say that her arm is potential stronger then Irene in a way that has the Teresa flesh. Clare said that pain was all her body, so Teresa flesh was fusing herself with clare.
Irene had quick sword in her name, so she made that ability. Teresa only copy it with her sense ability. Funny is that Teresa quick sword is better then Irene and if clare power is equal or better then Teresa, her natural arm has potential to surprise Irene arm ( being more quick, powerful and releasing or producing yoki power)
From my analysis it makes sense the arm producing yoki power because all cells in the body produce energy ( ATP). In this case would be a different type of energy ( yoki power). The new mib is going to activate new monsters or make new ones with pris hand. So it makes sense that arm produce yoki energy.
I can accept that you defend a theory that the yoki is being producing into a something that looks like a core, but it makes more sense to me in the all body.
Even if you are right about this core producing yoki, I still think that clare would be better with her arm fused with her and flesh of Teresa because Teresa was such a monster. Remember that even Irene was not capable of felling the strikes of Teresa using the quick sword. only when she was in the ground she realize that. So Teresa arm was various levels above Irene. Mine point is that the original arm of clare it might not be stronger then Teresa was because with was a fusion and then something new that could be better or worse but in the end was from one arm that was very levels above Irene arm. so, in the end is not a power up, but something in the way either that arm produces energy or not.

[MalakTawus]

I hope that Claire's final awakened form would be human-like, with long and straight hair (black hair like Teresa would be super cool).
----------------------------------------------

still, if they are going to create new warriors or activate the dead this is all i need to confirm my idea of irene arm can't be seen as un upgrade, more like an inconvinience
Tbh what Dae is doing seems to be completely against your theory.
Your theory is based on the fact that the original arm would be better than Irene's arm.......but then why Dae plans on doing 3 warriors with 1/3 of Priscilla's arm instead of 1 warrior with all Prissy's arm?
Following your logic the more flash used the better should be the result,but that doesn't seems to the the case here.On the contrary what Dae is doing seems to imply that the sorce of yoki in a warrior depends not on the amout used (of course there is a minimum that needs to be used) but on the quality used....if this is true,than it's pretty obvious that Claire's yoki power won't change regardless if she is using her original arm or Irene's.
So, in other words, Claire has already received from Teresa all the potential,so in the end the only thing that can make a difference is the training that the arm has received....so Irene's arm is the best.

[freakonboard]

Clarakiss, Isley sending the AB's to Staff wasn't his downfall, not at all...he did that on purpose as part of his strategy to hide what his true target was (Luciella), not to mention eliminate the "chaff from the wheat"; he had no use for them anymore since he found Priscilla.
I think he meant that Isley's plan leaded to the creation of The Abyss Feeders, and the rest is history.

[Gooral]

(...)
Tbh what Dae is doing seems to be completely against your theory.
Your theory is based on the fact that the original arm would be better than Irene's arm.......but then why Dae plans on doing 3 warriors with 1/3 of Priscilla's arm instead of 1 warrior with all Prissy's arm? (...)
Maybe because he doesn't want to make one insanely strong warrior but rather 3 very strong ones so that in case they would turn out to be uncontrollable it would be easier to dispose of them (or maybe not all of them would escape from their leash)? It looks like he wants to make a very specific kind of weapon/monster to which is required a specific amount of material (youki?).

About how many...
造れそうだ？
can you make?
今回はこれを使う予定なので
This time I'm planning to use this, so
その大きさならおそらく３体程かと。。。
given this size, probably about three, I think...


Anyway, we know that when offensive warriors lose their limbs they lose their youki. They're not like defensive types (or all awakened beings) who can regenerate as long as their core is intact. So when Clare lost her limb she lost some youki, whether she gained more overall thanks to Irene is the question. I'm of the opinion that it's not the case. Although now it doesn't matter much since it looked like she regenerated from scratch and both of her arms were exactly the same.

[irvinethearcher]

Maybe because he doesn't want to make one insanely strong warrior but rather 3 very strong ones so that in case they would turn out to be uncontrollable it would be easier to dispose of them (or maybe not all of them would escape from their leash)? It looks like he wants to make a very specific kind of weapon/monster to which is required a specific amount of material (youki?).



Anyway, we know that when offensive warriors lose their limbs they lose their youki. They're not like defensive types (or all awakened beings) who can regenerate as long as their core is intact. So when Clare lost her limb she lost some youki, whether she gained more overall thanks to Irene is the question. I'm of the opinion that it's not the case. Although now it doesn't matter much since it looked like she regenerated from scratch and both of her arms were exactly the same.
i understood it the way that offensive type warriors simply are unable to memorize their limbs like def types. When galatera lost the "memory" of her eyes she couldn't regenerate them even if she was an def type.
What i don't like about the yoki loss is that isley or priscilla lost half of their bodies but did they loose half of their yoki each time? i don't think so, i know they are AB but despite that.
I thought about that yoki somehow always concentrates in the middle of the body.
Only my two cents really fast scripted.

[irvinethearcher]

100% right Nixl; I've said for the longest time that AB's somehow reflect the characters a bit; while I wouldn't say they control how they will look like....many many things go into how they turn out looking, including a bit of imagination, their own personality etc etc.



Irvine, we don't even know if any of this scent stuff even applies to her. This scent stuff is only something the Awakened persona seems to have been searching for; everytime we saw her humanity, this was never brought up at all. The whole topic wasn't even known to us until recent chapters.

It's possible she was manipulated in a sense, if that's what you mean; the word supervised though, implies that they were working together which can't be right *scratches head

Why are you bringing up Teresa? she has nothing to do with this...or at least, I hope not :O.

...It's complicated, I know :heh:; I'm still holding out that Yagi will streamline things in the upcoming chapters and give us answers, like he did with Dietrich.

I will answer you if i have more time. The moment i am damn busy.
Supervised is perhaps a bit strong, influenced in a subtle way perhaps. I am not good enough if it comes to such fine differences in the language.
The question is how could the priscilla child personality knew clare scent except another personality borrowed her some of her memories?

[Shiek927]

I think he meant that Isley's plan leaded to the creation of The Abyss Feeders, and the rest is history.

Oh, that makes sense; I wouldn't call it a mistake on Isley's part though, he just didn't know....not he like can predict the future :D

(He? who's he? you mean Clarakiss? she's a girl :heh:)

I will answer you if i have more time. The moment i am damn busy.
Supervised is perhaps a bit strong, influenced in a subtle way perhaps. I am not good enough if it comes to such fine differences in the language.
The question is how could the priscilla child personality knew clare scent except another personality borrowed her some of her memories?

I'll repeat what I said Irvine, that perhaps this whole mystery surrounding her search for the scent's source is purely a goal of her Awakened persona.

You're confused because you're trying to figure out how, when we saw her with Isley and Raki for instance, how she knew about claire's scent; a good question, which begs another....in all that time, when her humanity was out, have we ever heard a single word about this whole scent issue? No, we haven't. Why is that?

In recent chapters, Priscilla, her Awakened persona, said she is looking for the source of this scent to get her memories back....why would she have problems like this? I thought that, since Priscilla is an Awakened Being, and this side of her is definitely the stronger, more dominant side, that she would "have access" and not have gaps in her mind the same way her humanity does to repress everything...but apparently, her Awakened persona is just as in the dark as her human side is.

This is intriguing to say this least, because this further pushes the "two people sharing one body" statement that I said; Priscillla's Awakened Persona seemingly cannot remember Priscilla's time as a human being, everything up till her awakening (and probably the 7 years with Raki and Isley post-Extra Chapter 3, or at least bits of it)....and Priscilla's humanity is the same way, but vice-versa; she can't remember up to a certain point; at least her time as a warrior, her awakening, her rampage and so on and so forth. Priscilla's Awakened Persona and humanity, are missing what the other side has :twitch:.

Priscilla, her human-side, wanted to find out and understand her past and everything by going back to her home, finding her parents and so on (though it's frustrating, arrg, because Priscilla apparently lives in the South...but Raki's own natural scent apparently got to her because it reminded him of her; Cyclone however said in his own translations that he lived in the southern part of the west, so how his scent could have affected her is confusing to me...she herself couldn't have been born in the west too because Isley really did set out to conquer Luciella's south; while I personally believe he wanted the south for his own personal gain, at least he could still appease her by getting her the land she wanted...:eyespin:)...Priscilla's Awakened persona however, seems to want to do the same thing through this whole scent-issue; by going back to the earliest point in her memory, which is with Claire and Teresa, which is remembers the most with one or the other's scent. The reason she has trouble remembering this, her killing of the Slayers, and so on, is because that's all muddled because of the subsequent rampage, and her own mental wrestling until she finally regressed back into her humanity after the short fight with Isley.

....It still is tricky, and I feel not all the puzzle-pieces are put together yet, but I feel we are least stepping in the right direction.

[MalakTawus]

Maybe because he doesn't want to make one insanely strong warrior but rather 3 very strong ones so that in case they would turn out to be uncontrollable it would be easier to dispose of them (or maybe not all of them would escape from their leash)? It looks like he wants to make a very specific kind of weapon/monster to which is required a specific amount of material (youki?).
Yes this is also a possibility,the main reason 'cause what you suggested don't convince me is 'cause i think that those 3 would be already too strong for them to control....and since they know that there are strong enemies out there,if i was a Mib and i had the possibility to create a super strong monster,i surely won't miss the chance.In the end: is better one n.1 or three n.2??? (obviously with the due proportions)

[rafael1932]

I hope that Claire's final awakened form would be human-like, with long and straight hair (black hair like Teresa would be super cool).
----------------------------------------------


Tbh what Dae is doing seems to be completely against your theory.
Your theory is based on the fact that the original arm would be better than Irene's arm.......but then why Dae plans on doing 3 warriors with 1/3 of Priscilla's arm instead of 1 warrior with all Prissy's arm?
Following your logic the more flash used the better should be the result,but that doesn't seems to the the case here.On the contrary what Dae is doing seems to imply that the sorce of yoki in a warrior depends not on the amout used (of course there is a minimum that needs to be used) but on the quality used....if this is true,than it's pretty obvious that Claire's yoki power won't change regardless if she is using her original arm or Irene's.
So, in other words, Claire has already received from Teresa all the potential,so in the end the only thing that can make a difference is the training that the arm has received....so Irene's arm is the best.

«......but then why Dae plans on doing 3 warriors with 1/3 of Priscilla's arm instead of 1 warrior with all Prissy's arm?»
. we will known that later, just let me send a message to yagi…
. he might use it to activate the dead coming out alive, after that they will come alive only and not with an upgrade in power ( I wonder)
«Following your logic the more flash used the better should be the result,»
.you are putting words in my mouth. I pretend to say what I said. The natural arm of clare have better traits than Irene arm. Just reread.
«it's pretty obvious that Claire's yoki power won't change regardless if she is using her original arm or Irene's.»
.When?
. you are supposing stuff
. clare is like pris- has a huge yoki potencial and she is taking her time to release it
«...so Irene's arm is the best.»
.if that core theory is so great why you don’t share it?


Gooral

I forgot too, but you can see that clare still have Irene arm or the right arm would be equal to the left ( much more cool)
http://www.mangareader.net/485-46701-28/claymore/chapter-100.html

[Falcor]

OK, just for the sake of condensing and summarizing...

The new arm only would be better then Irene arm if clare train with him long enough. I would say that her arm is potential stronger then Irene in a way that has the Teresa flesh. <snip> if clare power is equal or better then Teresa, her natural arm has potential to surprise Irene arm ( being more quick, powerful and releasing or producing yoki power)
From my analysis it makes sense the arm producing yoki power because all cells in the body produce energy ( ATP). In this case would be a different type of energy ( yoki power).

Tbh what Dae is doing seems to be completely against your theory.
Your theory is based on the fact that the original arm would be better than Irene's arm.......but then why Dae plans on doing 3 warriors with 1/3 of Priscilla's arm instead of 1 warrior with all Prissy's arm?
<snip>
On the contrary what Dae is doing seems to imply that the sorce of yoki in a warrior depends not on the amout used (of course there is a minimum that needs to be used) but on the quality used....if this is true,than it's pretty obvious that Claire's yoki power won't change regardless if she is using her original arm or Irene's.
So, in other words, Claire has already received from Teresa all the potential,so in the end the only thing that can make a difference is the training that the arm has received....so Irene's arm is the best.

Anyway, we know that when offensive warriors lose their limbs they lose their youki. They're not like defensive types (or all awakened beings) who can regenerate as long as their core is intact. So when Clare lost her limb she lost some youki, whether she gained more overall thanks to Irene is the question. I'm of the opinion that it's not the case.

What i don't like about the yoki loss is that isley or priscilla lost half of their bodies but did they loose half of their yoki each time? i don't think so, i know they are AB but despite that.
I thought about that yoki somehow always concentrates in the middle of the body.

still, if they are going to create new warriors or activate the dead this is all i need to confirm my idea of irene arm can't be seen as un upgrade, more like an inconvinience

«it's pretty obvious that Claire's yoki power won't change regardless if she is using her original arm or Irene's.»
.When? . you are supposing stuff .clare is like pris- has a huge yoki potencial and she is taking her time to release it
«...so Irene's arm is the best.»
.if that core theory is so great why you don’t share it?

The portion of Malak's response quoted above pretty much sums up my take on this, so no need for me to repeat his finer points.

Warriors don't lose their youki per se when they lose a limb. According to Irene, offensive warriors CAN regrow lost limbs, but the regrown limb will be weak since it will be normal, thus unable to channel youki. (Side note: this never really made much sense to me, since if this were true, why didn't Irene re-grow a normal left arm?:confused: But I digress.) As for overall power, from what can be gathered from reading the manga, actual power comes from the core. Afterall, the flesh that is implanted to create Claymore warriors doesn't have power, since the source of the flesh is obviously dead... true, it may contain residual energy, but not enough to explain the levels of power that Claymore warriors exhibit. The flesh is used to start the transformation process, and once the transformation has reached a sufficient level, the newly reborn warrior's body generates youki. The youma flesh is always implanted in the torso, making it the core. True, the "Claymorization" process converts the entire body, limbs and all, but since each severed limb doesn't grow into a separate warrior, this would indicate that the torso is responsible for generating youki. From there it is distributed throughout the rest of the body.

So from this, there can be no actual youki gain by merely attaching limbs from more powerful creatures to less powerful - however, to properly channel youki, the limb would have to be youma-based. From this perspective, Irene's arm, with more muscle-memory, is probably superior to Clare's original arm, especially since Clare has been furthering its development. If we are to believe that Clare's half-awakenings are making her body stronger, then the same must apply to Irene's arm, since it is attached to Clare.... :heh:

As for using Pris's arm in pieces, this points towards implantation, since merely attaching the arm wouldn't produce all that spectacular a result. With the mention of past-#1s' bodies being used in conjunction with Pris flesh, it's enough to make one's skin crawl.

[MalakTawus]

you are putting words in my mouth. I pretend to say what I said. The natural arm of clare have better traits than Irene arm. Just reread.
Even if you didn't say it, it's a logical conclusion from your theory.
You said that the original arm should produce more yoki power than Irene's,this means that the more powerful flash there is in a warrior the more power this warrior should produce (logic).
This also means that if you use the whole Prissy's arm you should obtain a more powerful warrior as final result (instead of using only 1/3 of the arm)....and this also means that what Dae is doing doesn't make a lot of sense (there could be other reasons we don't know that explain why he is acting this way,but atm don't seems very belivable,especially if you consider the bad situation in which the org is now).

As you can see,even if you didn't say directly,this are the effects that your theory imply.
Pesonally i belive that yoki power is completely unrelated to the arm used,and that it depends insted by the quality of the flash used to create the claymore....so it's not that the more flash you use the stronger would be the final result, imo as long as there is a certain quantity of flash used during the claymorization,adding more won't change anything.This would also explain why Dae decided to make 3 warriors instead of one,without any need to give up on making his monsters the strongest possible.

...not to mention that we can't even be sure if Teresa's arm was really stronger than Irene's arm, since the only reason that made seem Teresa's one better could simply be because she was A LOT stronger herself,not necessarily her arm.

Anyway, we know that when offensive warriors lose their limbs they lose their youki.
Gooral,you say this like it's a fact, but if i don't remember wrong something like this is NEVER said in the whole manga.......
Tbh i really doubt this is true.........


Edit:sorry for the numerous grammatical errors in this post,too tired to correct them......

[rafael1932]

Even if you didn't say it, it's a logical conclusion from your theory.
You said that the original arm should produce more yoki power than Irene's,this means that the more powerful flash there is in a warrior the more power this warrior should produce (logic).
This also means that if you use the whole Prissy's arm you should obtain a more powerful warrior as final result (instead of using only 1/3 of the arm)....and this also means that what Dae is doing doesn't make a lot of sense (there could be other reasons we don't know that explain why he is acting this way,but atm don't seems very belivable,especially if you consider the bad situation in which the org is now).

As you can see,even if you didn't say directly,this are the effects that your theory imply.
Pesonally i belive that yoki power is completely unrelated to the arm used,and that it depends insted by the quality of the flash used to create the claymore....so it's not that the more flash you use the stronger would be the final result, imo as long as there is a certain quantity of flash used during the claymorization,adding more won't change anything.This would also explain why Dae decided to make 3 warriors instead of one,without any need to give up on making his monsters the strongest possible.

...not to mention that we can't even be sure if Teresa's arm was really stronger than Irene's arm, since the only reason that made seem Teresa's one better could simply be because she was A LOT stronger herself,not necessarily her arm.


Gooral,you say this like it's a fact, but if i don't remember wrong something like this is NEVER said in the whole manga.......
Tbh i really doubt this is true.........


Edit:sorry for the numerous grammatical errors in this post,too tired to correct them......

Generalizing thing is a lot of fun. According with you thought – the most quantity of yoma part that is put inside a human more powerful they are, so the question remains. Why the org does not put yoma flesh inside the belly, arms and legs? Like you said «Even if you didn't say it, it's a logical conclusion from your theory.»
Is easy crititic other., why don’t you show your theory and don’t forget to explain Irene blow right from its “core” and still alive. Well maybe falcor should be the 1 explaining this…
Please show me things from the manga that support your theory of core

edit:
If there is a core, like falcor said, in the chest, why claymores are always killing by cutting their head? Why they don’t try for wound chest? From there they would have disable to fight, lose their will to fight or lose half their yoki power. Why they don’t show concern about this? Is like half way work done.
Why isley did not died when receive that combo from Helen? Why it looks like it was nothing?
Being every single cell from the body producing yoki energy ( in the real live they do produce ATP energy) don’t make clear response to these 2 questions? After all the core is the body itself. It is here, there and in that other place below. This way anyone can receive hits and still have yoki power to fight like it shows almost in every battle

By the way, don’t miria says that clare new arm was powerful? Does not that mean that that arm is current produting energy?

[MalakTawus]

First of all i'm not trying to hide anything since i already told my theory to everyone (and btw it's not even MY theory,it's a theory born from several past discussions on this forum,it's not that i'm the only one that made it,lol) and the people on this forum knows very well that i'm not lying (btw if i'm not wrong i said something about that even pages ago in this chapter thread.......)
Anyway it's quite tiresome to find it again,but if it can make you happy i'd say that it's quite similar to what Falcor said here above.

According with you thought – the most quantity of yoma part that is put inside a human more powerful they are, so the question remains.
Wait a sec.You think i said this????
It's the EXACT OPPOSITE of what i said!(or maybe you where repeating what i implied that you said?)

If there is a core, like falcor said, in the chest, why claymores are always killing by cutting their head? Why they don’t try for wound chest?
In case you haven't noticed there where several occasions where claymore were targeted at the "core location",and it was also said VERY CLEARLY that it's a vital point for claymores.......obviously the head is a vital poit too.....

Why isley did not died why receive that combo from Helen?
It seems that AB don't have a fixed location for that vital point....

Being every single cell from the body producing yoki energy ( in the real live they do produce ATP energy) don’t make clear response to these 2 questions?
No.For example,if your theory is right than Deneve should be super weak by now if you consider how many times she losed part of her body.........and i don't know you,but surely she doesn't seem weaker to me.....
By the way, don’t miria says that clare new arm was powerful?
Not exaclty.Miria says that that arm should be the arm of a very powerful warrior,so she could have simply saw that it was a very trained arm.......and btw even if she feels the power from it,it's also possible that the arm simply draw the power from the core and don't produce it itself.

[rafael1932]

First of all i'm not trying to hide anything since i already told my theory to everyone (and btw it's not even MY theory,it's a theory born from several past discussions on this forum,it's not that i'm the only one that made it,lol) and the people on this forum knows very well that i'm not lying (btw if i'm not wrong i said something about that even pages ago in this chapter thread.......)
Anyway it's quite tiresome to find it again,but if it can make you happy i'd say that it's quite similar to what Falcor said here above.


Wait a sec.You think i said this????
It's the EXACT OPPOSITE of what i said!(or maybe you where repeating what i implied that you said?)


In case you haven't noticed there where several occasions where claymore were targeted at the "core location",and it was also said VERY CLEARLY that it's a vital point for claymores.......obviously the head is a vital poit too.....


It seems that AB don't have a fixed location for that vital point....


No.For example,if your theory is right than Deneve should be super weak by now if you consider how many times she losed part of her body.........and i don't know you,but surely she doesn't seem weaker to me.....

Not exaclty.Miria says that that arm should be the arm of a very powerful warrior,so she could have simply saw that it was a very trained arm.......and btw even if she feels the power from it,it's also possible that the arm simply draw the power from the core and don't produce it itself.

Why you all respond to only half things?
Why you don’t try to explain « By the way, don’t miria says that clare new arm was powerful? Does not that mean that that arm is current producing energy?»

If you are hit in the heart you die. When clare was hit in the stomach it was Cleary said from rubel that if she took another shot in there she would die. Of course, because she is defensive type. The next flesh it would be human. pretty much like the new arm from Irene ( like she said). So if the new part of clare is human than, obvious, she will die in the next attack because she is offensive

[MalakTawus]

Why you all respond to only half things?
Why you don’t try to explain « By the way, don’t miria says that clare new arm was powerful? Does not that mean that that arm is current producing energy?»
.............it seems i was faster,lol.
If you are hit in the heart you die
Obvious.
When clare was hit in the stomach it was Cleary said from rubel that if she took another shot in there she would die.
No,that's not what he said,go re-read it.Rubel clearly said that there is a vital point there (and didn't say anything about a second shot).

[rafael1932]

.............it seems i was faster,lol.

Obvious.

No,that's not what he said,go re-read it.Rubel clearly said that there is a vital point there (and didn't say anything about a second shot).

So awakened beings like isley don’t have a core? Is that you are saying? He was it in his damn core and he is still alive and kicking. Is that ok for you? so isley have a core but at the same time does not have, so isley produce yoki energy but at the same time does not produce yoki energy . .. is kind of…trick..

« No,that's not what he said,go re-read it.Rubel clearly said that there is a vital point there (and didn't say anything about a second shot).»
Is the same shit. If she got hit there she dies. Clear as water. If this places are yoki energy stores should not she loose a lots and lots of yoki energy?

That little esplanation that you said about miria make me think- is he real? Or joking? Something so clear and you say that? Cmon you are kidding right? So the arm is stronger because is puling more energy out? Or because it is a veteran arm in a growing character?
Or because the arm is producing more yoki power because it is various levels ahead of clare natural arm ; I am not even talking about biology….

edit:Obvious, the clare potencial arm would increase after enought trainnig

And, by the way, ofensives can’t regenerate ( only old human form) because it’s a withdraw, a disavantage put in these to equilibrate things, after all ofensives are assume to have large yoki gap. Is not because there lies the core

[Falcor]

OK - seems there's some confusion about the core concept...

The core is A critical point, not THE ONLY critical point, since the head is obviously quite critical too. Never suggested otherwise. :heh:

Think of it like this - where is the energy produced and distributed from in the human body (or just about any organism, for that matter)? I know we're talking about Claymores and Youma here, but the same basic rules of biology apply, nonetheless. Even in the case of ABs, who are capable of reorganizing their anatomy, there is still a core that, if damaged sufficiently, will result in their death. Anything that feeds has to have a digestive tract and a cardio-vascular system to distribute nutrients and energy throughout the body. And we know for a fact that youma do indeed bleed... so there's really no way to misconstrue this basic concept.

I really don't want to go too in-depth with this, but if I need to spell it out any clearer, I may just throw my huge anatomy textbook on my trusty flatbed scanner and let it do the talking. :D

[An4rchy99]

Oh Gawd :uhoh: Not the critical point discussion :heh:

@falcor

I like it that you discussed the concepts in terms of basic biology and is not relying too much on the supernatural :)

[MalakTawus]

So awakened beings like isley don’t have a core? Is that you are saying?
I said
It seems that AB don't have a fixed location for that vital point....
Is it so difficult for you to understand something as clear as this????Can't you see that you are distorting what i said,AGAIN!!!!

Is the same shit. If she got hit there she dies. Clear as water. If this places are yoki energy stores should not she loose a lots and lots of yoki energy?
LOL,it's not the same thing at all.What Rubel said confirms that there REALLY is a vital point in that zone (and it's not the heart since it's NOT in that zone AT ALL).And are you suggesting that offensive types can't heal even minor injuries normally but only with human flash?Are you serious?THIS IS PURE NONSENSE.If this is true than Claire Miria and Helen would be FULL of fatal points all over their bodies,lol.
Regrowing arts and healing normal wounds IS NOT THE SAME THING!!!
(and btw we are not really sure if it's really impossible,Irene said that she'll try to regrow an arm with her normal strenght even if this should take months.....after all Dauf was able to regrow his missing parts even if he used a lot of time to do it,maybe he's an exception 'cause he's an AB,but who knows)

That little esplanation that you said about miria make me think- is he real? Or joking? Something so clear and you say that? Cmon you are kidding right? So the arm is stronger because is puling more energy out? Or because it is a veteran arm in a growing character?
I'm not joking at all.
Considering that your theory brings A LOT of problems,i'd say that the core theory make A LOT more sense.
Irene's arm is incredibly powerful so it "draws" more yoki from the core.
And btw,you accuse me that i respond only to some things and avoid others (and as you have seen you were wrong again since i actually responded to it,lol),so why don't you explain me the problem that i introduced about Deneve?????Maybe Prissy's yoki won't change a lot since she has immense yoki,but Deneve?????
Following your theory she should be super weak,lol.

Obvious, the clare potencial arm would increase after enought trainnig
I never said that Claire's arm can't become stronger if trained, but we don't know if it can become stronger than Irene's arm (and since Irene's arm is already a lot ahead in training it should be best to continue training it)
after all ofensives are assume to have large yoki gap
Riful was a defensive type and Prissy too...........probably even Isley...........are we really sure that offensive type have a large yoki gap? To be honest i don't remember anyone saying so.......

-------------------------------------------

The core is A critical point, not THE ONLY critical point, since the head is obviously quite critical too. Never suggested otherwise.
I don't understand why it's so difficult to understand something so obvious.And btw it's a sure fact that in that zone claymores have a vital point,it's not speculation at all.

[Shiek927]

Riful was a defensive type and Prissy too...........probably even Isley...........are we really sure that offensive type have a large yoki gap? To be honest i don't remember anyone saying so.......

-------------------------------------------

All the Abyssals, Dauf, Rigardo, and including Priscilla, are Offensive types Malak.

[Gooral]

1) Clare couldn't regenerate her arm (well she could but it would have human capabilities) i.e. she didn't have youki to spare to do that.
2) Irene's arm had youki in it and it gave Clare a huge power-up, enough to impress Flora and others, i.e. Irene lost youki the moment her arm has been detached from her body (it also has shown a reaction after Irene met/was killed by Raphaela which meant that the arm was still somehow connected with the rest of the original body).
3) Ophelia said: "A high level offensive warrior, even if she puts a lot of time into it, will at best get an arm no stronger than a regular human's". Which means that we don't even know that weak warriors, with not much youki would be able to do even that. It was later repeated by Irene and both her and Ophelia had ways of knowing it (Irene because she was so old and experienced and maybe even tried to regenerate her lost arm, Ophelia because she probably played LEGO with other Claymores)

All of this suggests that once a warrior loses his limb he also loses his youki irreversibly. If they've had the same amount of youki then I wouldn't see a reason why they could only regenerate human arms. Even if for some unknown reason they couldn't even if they've had the same amount of youki then they would have to transfer this excess of youki somewhere else and for example make their other arm stronger which we know is not the case.

We don't even know that once defensive warrior loses his arm this severed arm has youki in it. It's very possible that once it's disconnected from the core it loses it's unique capabilities and becomes a plain human arm. Otherwise it would mean that defensive warriors can produce an infinite amount of youki which is absurd IMO. If it was the case we would see weak warriors having their limbs exchanged with strong defensive ones.
We also haven't seen any Claymore without limb(s) to awaken so it's possible that they would be weaker AB than they could be. In fact we've seen Clare awakening her all limbs and she didn't have the same arms but one was Irene's and one was hers. If what some of you say were true I doubt it would be the case.

In short there is nothing that suggests that after losing a limb the amount of youki stays the same and plenty that suggests otherwise.

i understood it the way that offensive type warriors simply are unable to memorize their limbs like def types.
I wouldn't see a reason why they could remember and recreate a limb and offensive types couldn't. Clare remembered her limb perfectly but she couldn't do it because "she just wasn't made that way".

What Falcor is saying, i.e. that offensive types can't channel youki to regenerated limbs doesn't explain why offensive types can't do it and defensive types can.
My idea is that offensive types have youki always stored in their right places and are always combat ready. Defensive types however have to channel the youki through their body every time they want to use it and they're always ready to pull it back (of course it's instant and automatic). That way even if their limb is severed they always are fast enough to pull their youki back so that they won't lose it. The offensive types are fighters whereas the defensive types are more cautious and that would explain Ophelia's words.

That would explain why they can regenerate limbs and offensive warriors can't and it would explain why usually offensive types are stronger fighters.

Edit 2:
perhaps i should stop posting until i have some time on my hands again :heh:
Now that I've re-read 105th chapter it looks like it might not be the case. When Destroyer took Deneve's arm it sucked her youki (her youki has been reduced and earlier it's been flowing chaotically) and Deneve mentioned something about youki regeneration. So it's pretty much confirmed that defensive warriors lose youki but can regenerate it and offensive warriors can't (this changes however after they awaken).

[Shiek927]

On the topic of youki, I don't think it's possible for an Awakened Being, or even a warrior for that matter to ever be 100% depleted and have none left in their body -- not depleted in that sense, that doesn't make sense. We've seen however with the Abyssals, who have monstrous reserves, that you can be pushed to a limit where you just don't have the strength to do anything, even maintain their awakened form, until you recuperate.

Just like real strength I suppose.

[Gooral]

What Falcor is saying, i.e. that offensive types can't channel youki to regenerated limbs doesn't explain why offensive types can't do it and defensive types can.
My idea is that offensive types have youki always stored in their right places and are always combat ready. Defensive types however have to channel the youki through their body every time they want to use it and they're always ready to pull it back (of course it's instant and automatic). That way even if their limb is severed they always are fast enough to pull their youki back so that they won't lose it. The offensive types are fighters whereas the defensive types are more cautious and that would explain Ophelia's words.

That would explain why they can regenerate limbs and offensive warriors can't and it would explain why usually offensive types are stronger fighters.

[MalakTawus]

All the Abyssals, Dauf, Rigardo, and including Priscilla, are Offensive types Malak
What the hell are you talking about???
It's been CONFIRMED that offensive types are bad at regen even AFTER the awakening (infact Dauf and Rigardo were unable to regen themselves even if the have massive yoki).......so it's OBVIOUS that someone with high regen ability like Prissy is a DEFENSIVE type,but i admit that i was wrong about Isley,he can change form but he's not good at regen,so he's probably offensive type.From what Riful said to Dauf (and the fact that she could regen very easily) it seems that she's also very skilled at regen so she also should be DEFENSIVE type.......Luciela is an offensive type since it's confirmed that Raph wsa offensive.

So no Shiek,what you say is surely wrong: at least Prissy and Riful are surely defensive types.

Edit: I checked the databook and it seems that you are actually right Shiek.......but this doesn't make a lot of sense considering what was said in the manga.......this databook seems shit to me,but anyway if that's the case than Riful and Prissy are Offensive types that can regen beter than anyone else ever shown in the manga (well,only Deneve has also an amazing regen-ability....making the due proportions)

[Shiek927]

What the hell are you talking about???
It's been CONFIRMED that offensive types are bad at regen even AFTER the awakening (infact Dauf and Rigardo were unable to regen themselves even if the have massive yoki).......so it's OBVIOUS that someone with high regen ability like Prissy is a DEFENSIVE type,but i admit that i was wrong about Isley,he can change form but he's not good at regen,so he's probably offensive type.From what Riful said to Dauf (and the fact that she could regen very easily) it seems that she's also very skilled at regen so she also should be DEFENSIVE type.......Luciela is an offensive type since it's confirmed that Raph wsa offensive.

So no Shiek,what you say is surely wrong: at least Prissy and Riful are surely defensive types.

Oh lord :uhoh::uhoh::uhoh:

Malak, it's been freaking confirmed already in the databooks. All the Abyssals are awesome at regenerating because they are Abyssals; they have monstrous reserves of youki that offset whether or not they were Offensive or Defensive as a warrior.

How is it that I keep getting wrapped up in things that feel so obvious?

And yes, Teresa was a Offensive type as well. In fact, all the Slayers were.

[Gooral]

@Malak
You're comparing Duff and Riguald to Abyssals and Priscilla, lol. We know thanks to Ophelia how one becomes offensive or defensive type and Priscilla was the fighter type. She just has so much youki that she can regenerate her relatively small body instantly.

Also check databooks.

Edit:
Shiek beat me to it.

[Shiek927]

@Malak
You're comparing Duff and Riguald to Abyssals and Priscilla, lol. We know thanks to Ophelia how one becomes offensive or defensive type and Priscilla was the fighter type. She just has so much youki that she can regenerate her relatively small body instantly.

Also check databooks.

Edit:
Shiek beat me to it.

Ya see? we can agree with eachother every once and awhile...:heh::p:heh:

[MalakTawus]

You are right.....i was too late to add my edit......

All the Abyssals are awesome at regenerating because they are Abyssals
But this is not true.Isley is not so great at regen (i checked again) even if he has an immense yoki.


Anyway even if was wrong about this (i made this mistake since i don't trust that databook too much,but in this case i think that the org shouldn't be wrong in judging offensive/defensive types, so on this matter it's true that the databook should be right), it's not that this point is a problem in the "core theory" (that was what i was discussing)

[Shiek927]

You are right.....i was too late to add my edit......


But this is not true.Isley is not so great at regen (i checked again) even if he has an immense yoki.

Depends on your outlook on the word "great"; he can regenerate limbs the size of buildings, that counts as something :heh:.

But why do you say that? We've only seen him regenerating limbs when he was fighting the Eaters, and that point, he was already pushed to the breaking point, which is why he may have come off as slow. Of course, he was also in his Awakened form, which exhausts and uses more power; had he remained in human form, he would have healed more quickly, though of course, circumstances denied him that.

To go into a little more detail Malak; yes, once you cross the threshold of Abyssal, it doesn't matter whether or not you were Offensive/Defensive; what is different then is Power - the speed and effeciency in regenerating. The stronger you are, the faster and quicker you can regenerate.

Priscilla for example, can regenerate pretty much instantenously. The Abyssals probably can't regenerate as fast, but you can't deny how quick they can regenerate regardless of their monstrous size and, of course, the fact they can regenerate at all regardless of their class as a human.

it's not that this point is a problem in the "core theory" (that was what i was discussing)

I know :); I was noticed that particular point and wanted to respond.

[MalakTawus]

We've only seen him regenerating limbs when he was fighting the Eaters
Well,he was regenerating in that battle,but it was quite slow and he gave up halfway.It surely wasn't on Riful's level (Prissy is different since she has a lot more yoki....and a smaller body)....but it's also true like you said that he was already tired from the beginning of the battle so it's possible that he gave up on regen his arm to avoid to lose too much strenght.

My idea is that offensive types have youki always stored in their right places and are always combat ready. Defensive types however have to channel the youki through their body every time they want to use it and they're always ready to pull it back (of course it's instant and automatic). That way even if their limb is severed they always are fast enough to pull their youki back so that they won't lose it.
???????? Are you serious????
This theory is crazy.You are telling me that Deneve didn't lose any yoki 'cause she was fast enough to pull her yoki back???Let's be serious here,almost all the times that Deneve was SERIOUSLY wounded she understood that the enemy hit her AFTER being hit,what you are suggesting here is impossible.

And wait a sec.......but this is also a version of the core theory,no? It's quite different from what rafael was saying......

[Gooral]

About defensive/offensive types - creator of most threads here NoSanninWa has written something on that matter:
A longstanding issue is the question of why offensive type Claymore cannot simply regrow strong limbs while defensive type Claymore can. This leads naturally into the question of why defensive Claymores cannot simply become limb donors for their offensive brethen.

I will attempt to answer question without having to stretch too far beyond facts.

First: If offensive Claymores can regrow limbs, but not strong limbs, then it appears to me that there is something that an offensive Claymore loses along with their limb, something that cannot simply be replaced as easily as flesh. Perhaps there is a strong youki within their limb and when the limb is hacked off, they lose that youki and cannot regenerate it. That is the essence more precious than flesh.

Second: Defensive Claymore can easily regrow limbs and they will be as strong as a they ever were. There are two possible reasons for this. The obvious one is that they can regrow their youki as easily as flesh. If they can regrow their youki then there is no reason for not donating limbs. Since there is no evidence that this is even considered by any Claymores, one can deduce that this is not the answer. That leads me to...

Third: The other answer is that there is a basic difference between offensive and defensive Claymores. Offensive Claymores keep their youki dispersed throughout their bodies so that they can use it to strongly enhance their flesh. By contast defensive Claymores keep their youki centered in their "vital point" and only send tendrils into their limbs while it stays focused in their center. This causes a defensive Claymore's power to be lower, but enables them to more easily regenerate since they keep their strength in their center instead of dispersing it throughout their body.

Fourth: If this is so, then a defensive Claymore can easily regenerate flesh which they can infuse with youki and withdraw as necessary. When they lose a limb, they don't lose anything vital, unlike their offensive cousins. This means that if they cut off one of their limbs, it does not contain the vital youki which an offensive Claymore's limb is full of. If they were to donate one of their limbs, it would be as weak as a human limb to the offensive Claymore.

Any evidence of this? Actually yes. When Irene donated her arm to Clare it was clear that the arm contained youki more powerful than Clare's youki. Since we know that Irene's regenerated arm would only have human strength, it seems that the regenerated arm can not regenerate the youki she gave to Clare. This proves at least half of this speculation.

As for the remainder, the idea that defensive Claymores do not keep their youki dispersed throughout their bodies like offensive types... the evidence is scantier, but not non-existant. It would explain why their offensive abilities are lower. It simply makes sense that since they need to extend their strength from their center it would be weaker. It also makes sense that the desire to protect themselves would make them instinctively pool their youki in the safest part of the being.

Mostly I find this idea interesting since it finally presents a functional difference between offensive and defensive Claymores. They talk about how the difference is fundamental and can never change so it should not merely be a mindset. This explains how that mindset causes certain physiological differences between the types.

And if so, then we know that Deneve can never be used as a limb donator, constantly hacking off body parts to replace the arms, legs, etc of her "regeneration challenged" companions.

I thought similarly independently. I've managed to find this great post searching through animesuki using specific keywords.

Edit:
Yes, I'm serious. As for the "being different from what rafael was saying" - yeah. I've only agreed with the part where he said that Clare became weaker when she lost her limb. My and NoSanninWa's idea explains everything while yours if full of holes.

[Shiek927]

Well,he was regenerating in that battle,but it was quite slow and he gave up halfway.It surely wasn't on Riful's level (Prissy is different since she has a lot more yoki....and a smaller body)....but it's also true like you said that he was already tired from the beginning of the battle so it's possible that he gave up on regen his arm to avoid to lose too much strenght.

Well, I'm of the opinion that Isley is stronger then Riful (Riful|Luciella>Isley/Alicia), but yes, their were alot of circumstances why Isley may have come off as slow...

their's also the thing Malak that Riful's body is made of thin strips; Isley has much more bulk then Riful does, which could be another explanation.

Like I said, the stronger you are, the faster and quicker you can regenerate; that's how it is once you cross the Abyssal-threshold.

[Gooral]

Yes this is also a possibility,the main reason 'cause what you suggested don't convince me is 'cause i think that those 3 would be already too strong for them to control....and since they know that there are strong enemies out there,if i was a Mib and i had the possibility to create a super strong monster,i surely won't miss the chance.In the end: is better one n.1 or three n.2??? (obviously with the due proportions)
What would be the chances that all 3 would go out of control? If they could even control one of them it would be still better than having one uncontrollable one. And they could manage to kill one very strong but it would be extremely difficult for them to kill one insanely strong. You've completely missed my point.

[MalakTawus]

About defensive/offensive types - creator of most threads here NoSanninWa has written something on that matter:


I thought similarly independently. I've managed to find this great post searching through animesuki using specific keywords.

Edit:
Yes, I'm serious. As for the "being different from what rafael was saying" - yeah. I've only agreed with the part where he said that Clare became weaker when she lost her limb. My and NoSanninWa's idea explains everything while yours if full of holes.
Really intereesting post that one,even if i personally not agree for various reasons:
-Deneve couldn't turn off her yoki in time when she was hit,infact she noticed to be hit only after it happened,so she should be a lot weaker by now.This theory is ridiculous on this point suggesting that the warrior can turn off the yoki in time.This point alone ruin the whole theory imo.
-That theory says that defensive type's arms are basically human arms when the yoki is not channelled,but to me it seems that even when Deneve had her yoki completely sealed she had inhuman strenght (especially her legs power is immense compared to normal humans.....)

What would be the chances that all 3 would go out of control?
A lot if the problem is the experiment itself.If that's the case,there is a n huge possibility that 3 almost identical experiments produce the same result,and btw if only one goes out of control in the beginning,how can you be so sure that they can use the other 2 to stop her in time before she does a carneficine???
They must be 100% sure that the final result won't be a problem for the org,if not even one of those 3 could cause their destruction.

Well, I'm of the opinion that Isley is stronger then Riful
Imo Riful,Isley and Alisia have the same strenght but different characteristics,so the final result depends on the circumstances.....but it's pointless to restart this topic since it's based 100% on speculation.

their's also the thing Malak that Riful's body is made of thin strips; Isley has much more bulk then Riful does, which could be another explanation.
This is surely a good point....but this basically is the same as admitting that Riful's strange body is more adapt to regen ability.

[MalakTawus]

Anyway like i already suggested,it's possible that Irene's arm didn't have really yoki power inside,but that since it's a very powerful arm it simply draws a lot power from Claire's core.I don't see the problem with this.

[Gooral]

Really intereesting post that one
Funny you needed to see NoSanninWa's post to realize it :D. I was surprised myself that me and him thought this much alike (although his post was more refined than mine, I've written this idea in a spur of the moment). Until now I've never really thought much about what Ophelia said and why would offensive and defensive types differ so much. I only knew that when offensive types lose their limbs they also lose their youki. This dicussion (Falcor's post to be exact) made me to think what would be the reason behind this.


-Deneve couldn't turn off her yoki in time when she was hit,infact she noticed to be hit only after it happened,so she should be a lot weaker by now.This theory is ridiculous on this point suggesting that the warrior can turn off the yoki in time.This point alone ruin the whole theory imo.
That's why I've written that it happens instantly and independently. They automatically detect the danger and protect the part that's about to be hit. That would also explain why defensive types are usually better sensors than offensive ones. They need to be good sensors to do this.

As for Deneve's inhuman strength - as I've written in my post - they can use their youki as needed. She would have normal arm/leg there just before the moment it would be severed, not earlier.


A lot if the problem is the experiment itself.If that's the case,there is a n huge possibility that 3 almost identical experiments produce the same result,and btw if only one goes out of control in the beginning,how can you be so sure that they can use the other 2 to stop her in time before she does a carneficine???
They must be 100% sure that the final result won't be a problem for the org,if not even one of those 3 could cause their destruction.

It's obvious that the result won't be the same. It never is. Even if all specimens would be the same it wouldn't mean they wouldn't be able to control at least one of them (if only thanks to Raftela) and even if all of them rebelled it wouldn't mean they would cooperate with each other. It's much safer option than what you're suggesting.

Anyway like i already suggested,it's possible that Irene's arm didn't have really yoki power inside,but that since it's a very powerful arm it simply draws a lot power from Claire's core.I don't see the problem with this.
No, it's not possible and it only shows that you yourself realize how full of holes your idea is. Irene could compare the youki herself and she said that Clare can't use QS (effectively) without her arm. Clare's version of QS was 1/10 of hers. With Irene's arm it jumped to 1/2. Flora and everyone also realized how out of place was that one arm when compared to the rest of her body part.

[MalakTawus]

Funny you needed to see NoSanninWa's post to realize it
Well,like you said his post explained better the theory (even if like i said i don't agree with it).
I only knew that when offensive types lose their limbs they also lose their youki.
This is not a fact,just a speculation.

That's why I've written that it happens instantly and independently. They automatically detect the danger and protect the part that's about to be hit.
Still it's not belivable.How can they always detect danger in time even if those attacks were super fast????To me this seems absurd,just wishful thinking that is needed to explain this part of the theory that it's in truth VERY WEAK on this point.
Everything in a body needs a certain reflex to start functioning,and those reflexes are the fastest comunication possible inside of a body.So no,it doesn't make any sense that defensive warriors have an extra network of comunication faster than the primary one,it's totally against any logic.The truth is that Deneve took attacks faster than she could read and so it's IMPOSSIBLE for her body to detect danger in time,since the sensation of danger is something that is controlled by the brain (like everything else) so if an attack hit before Deneve knows,the brain can give the "turn off" command in time to the body.
This point of the theory is super weak,denying this is ridicolous.
As for Deneve's inhuman strength - as I've written in my post - they can use their youki as needed. She would have normal arm/leg there just before the moment it would be severed, not earlier.
I said that when their yoki was completely sealed,her arts should be weak as humans,but in truth Deneve even in that condition has inhuman strenght.

It's obvious that the result won't be the same. It never is.
What you say this is not true at all,and i'll make a concrete example:
even if you repeat 10000000000000 times the exact same experiment to create AFs,you'll NEVER obtain an AF that is very different from the result that we saw.
At the same way,if the final result of the experiment that Dae is trying to do now is an incontrollable monster,than there is a very high probability that even the other two would have the same problem.
It's obvious that Dae can't risk something like that so it's logical to think that Dae is sure to be able to control those 3 monsters.......and if that's the case than it should be wiser to create one super strong monster instead of 3 less stronger ones. Like i said it's always better one n.1 than three n.2 (with due proportions).
The best explanation that i found is that using the whole arm won't make any difference than using 1/3 arm (probably 'cause 1/3 of that arm is enough to "create the core" and adding more would be useless.
Even if all specimens would be the same it wouldn't mean they wouldn't be able to control at least one of them (if only thanks to Raftela) and even if all of them rebelled it wouldn't mean they would cooperate with each other.
Do you understand that this would also mean that they are almost surely dead?
It's much safer option than what you're suggesting.
I don't think so,lol.Imo only idiots would give the ok to an experiment so dangerous if they are not almost 100% sure that they can control the final result,especially since they made already that mistake in the past (Luciela) they have to be BRAINLESS to risk something like that....and btw,following your theory, if they really have to risk so much anyway,than it would still make more sense to try to create the most powerful monster possible.

No, it's not possible and it only shows that you yourself realize how full of holes your idea is. Irene could compare the youki herself and she said that Clare can't use QS (effectively) without her arm. Clare's version of QS was 1/10 of hers. With Irene's arm it jumped to 1/2.
Lol,it's you that don't understand what i said.
Since Irene's arm is stronger than Claire's arm,Irene's arm implanted in Claire's body draws more yoki power from the core than what her original arm did before.Do you understand now?
There is absolutely no problem in this theory,this also would explain why others have noticed that that arm was not normal,exactly 'cause that arm draws a lot more yoki power from the core compared to the rest of her body.

[Gooral]

@Malak
You don't know how fast youki flows in the body. For all we know it can be faster than electric impulses in human body. We also don't know that it can't be pulled back even during the attack. Since we've seen that even offensive warrior's arm was somehow connected to the main body (since Irene's arm reacted when Irene was killed by Rafaela) it shouldn't be that strange that defensive warrior's arm would still act as if it was connected to the body and transfer youki back a bit later.
As for sensation of danger being controlled by the brain - it doesn't work that way for Claymores. They become defensive/offensive types instinctively. Deneve's words: Despite the fact she wanted to finally avenge her sister this time, she became a defensive type of warrior. Because no matter how much she wanted to avenge her sister in her head deep in heart she kept permanently thinking "I don't want to die".
And if youma powers would amplify this instinct that would explain everything.

As for being cloaked and being this strong - it's the same explanation as with Miria being able to do her mirage, Helen to use her stretchy hands and Clare to use Windcutter. In the end they still use youki but they don't leak it. Somehow Claymores at 0% youki aren't as strong as humans but MUCH stronger. I'm surprised I have to explain it to you Malak.

As for AFs, I thought you would mention them. They're not the same. Making them the same is impossible, they wouldn't be able to divide the materials so that AFs of exactly the same power would be made. They all don't act the same. They have some general patterns they stick to but for example they don't attack the same person (one would attack one moving object, second the other etc.) So even if one of the three would attack them it wouldn't mean that all of them would attack. Also they're not always traveling together. The ones Dee found weren't all AFs there were. I was nitpicking here, since they won't be exactly the same and they won't act exactly the same. It wasn't even my point and you've omitted my point. My point was it was still more safe to divide strength because there would be a good chance they wouldn't act together since they would have different minds. All of them thinking to attack the organization and for example not each other would be less possible. Besides, why would they even make 3 at once? They could make one, check how it would turn out and if it was good he could make another. With one very strong there wouldn't be a chance like this.


I don't think so,lol.Imo only idiots would give the ok to an experiment so dangerous if they are not almost 100% sure that they can control the final result,especially since they made already that mistake in the past (Luciela) they have to be BRAINLESS to risk something like that....and btw,following your theory, if they really have to risk so much anyway,than it would still make more sense to try to create the most powerful monster possible.

What? How it would make more sense to make a stronger warrior? In case sth went bad they would be completely screwed. In case 3 specimens went rouge (but it would be much harder and much less possible especially if they didn't make 3 at once) it would still be easier to deal with them by going after each one in intervals. And I seriously doubt that all 3 of them would think exactly the same thing and cooperated (and it would be necessary to have comparable strength as one strong one). And like I said, with Raftela they would be able to get rid of at least one of them. Also it would be easier to kill one of the 3 and reduce their overall power than to do the same to one super strong one.

As for being 100% sure, they would be as sure as with Alicia and Beth (who both lost themselves). There was always a real danger that something would go wrong because it had a really big flaw. And what Dae wants to do is risky since earlier he didn't have permission.
Lol,it's you that don't understand what i said.
Since Irene's arm is stronger than Claire's arm,Irene's arm implanted in Claire's body draws more yoki power from the core than what her original arm did before.Do you understand now?
There is absolutely no problem in this theory,this also would explain why others have noticed that that arm was not normal,exactly 'cause that arm draws a lot more yoki power from the core compared to the rest of her body.
I understood perfectly your stupid reasoning. Irene knew that Clare would become stronger 5 times (her arm to be exact) before Clare even took her arm. She was able to estimate it by measuring their youki. It's obvious it's not the case here. Also if it was like you said Clare would notice the change and that more youki is being transferred there. In addition everyone knew that it was entirely different youki signature than Clare's. Clare also wasn't accustomed to her new arm. If it was her own youki there wouldn't be a problem with compatibility. Also when she awakened her limbs this arm was entirely different than her own. If it was her youki they would look the same. Sometimes you write sth so stupid that I can't believe it.

[Falcor]

No, it's not possible and it only shows that you yourself realize how full of holes your idea is. Irene could compare the youki herself and she said that Clare can't use QS (effectively) without her arm. Clare's version of QS was 1/10 of hers. With Irene's arm it jumped to 1/2. Flora and everyone also realized how out of place was that one arm when compared to the rest of her body part.

Just pointing out that, according to your own words above, if Irene's arm was full of youki, then Clare's ability with the quicksword should be equal to, not less than, Irene's own ability, since she would have access to the same youki. If anything, your above example proves the youki power comes from the core, with the arm acting as a conduit. Just as gold is a better conductor than copper, so is Irene's arm compared to Clare's original arm.

Granted, I love the overall theory, but disagree on the youki energy part. I would slightly modify that theory by saying that offensive types don't lose their overall youki when losing a limb, but are unable to regrow a youma-infused limb since they instinctually keep their youki energy spread throughout their body, whereas defensive types keep their youki concentrated inward so have the capability to redirect (concentrate) their youki flow to a specific area, allowing them to fully restore lost limbs. Same theory with the very important distinction that youma energy isn't lost. More of a focus limitation than anything. This would also explain why offensive type AOs are able to fully regenerate limbs, since awakening removes any such limitations since most, if not all, of their body mass is youma-based. If youki were truly lost, then even AOs would suffer degradation over time, becoming weaker as limbs were lost - especially Priscilla, having lost more limbs than practically the rest of the characters combined.... ::heh:

I understood perfectly your stupid reasoning. Irene knew that Clare would become stronger 5 times (her arm to be exact) before Clare even took her arm. She was able to estimate it by measuring their youki. It's obvious it's not the case here. Also if it was like you said Clare would notice the change and that more youki is being transferred there. In addition everyone knew that it was entirely different youki signature than Clare's. Clare also wasn't accustomed to her new arm. If it was her own youki there wouldn't be a problem with compatibility. Also when she awakened her limbs this arm was entirely different than her own. If it was her youki they would look the same. Sometimes you write sth so stupid that I can't believe it.
Actually, the reason for the arm not being under Clare's full control initially is due to her having to adjust her youki flow into a new 'conductor.' As for the arm not transforming same as her left arm, since the flesh itself isn't her own this makes perfect sense as well, and has nothing to do with youki. To assume somebody's reasoning is stupid based on speculation is in itself absurd, is it not? :heh: Last time I checked, this is all speculation, so there really is no right or wrong answer until Yagi comes out with something that indicates otherwise.

[Gooral]

Just pointing out that, according to your own words above, if Irene's arm was full of youki, then Clare's ability with the quicksword should be equal to, not less than, Irene's own ability, since she would have access to the same youki.
No, because QS is a technique where you focus ALL your youma power in one arm. Irene didn't give Clare all her youma power, she didn't severe her arm when it was in QS mode (of course it wouldn't be possible, I'm just making a point). She gave her arm only.

Granted, I love the overall theory, but disagree on the youki energy part. I would slightly modify that theory by saying that offensive types don't lose their overall youki when losing a limb, but are unable to regrow a youma-infused limb since they instinctually keep their youki energy spread throughout their body, whereas defensive types keep their youki concentrated inward so have the capability to redirect (concentrate) their youki flow to a specific area, allowing them to fully restore lost limbs. Same theory with the very important distinction that youma energy isn't lost. More of a focus limitation than anything.
Explain to me why do you think youki is not lost. Why offensive Claymores can at best regrow human limbs? If they didn't lose youki the excess of youki would go elsewhere and we know it's not the case. It could even be better to have one super-fast and strong arm than 2 of half such speed and for Clare who knew QS technique it would be even better to have 1 arm only. I still don't see an explanation why offensive types can't regenerate their limbs but defensive types can.
As for ABs, once they awaken entirely different rules apply to them. We don't know however any offensive Claymore without a limb who awakened.

As for the other part of my post you quoted - it's not speculation. Irene said explicitly that with her arm Clare's QS will become 5 times faster and stronger BEFORE Clare even attached it. She was clearly estimating youki then and how much more would Clare gain and would be able to transfer to arm to make QS more powerful. Also Miria, Ophelia, Flora knew that this arm was different and had different youki signature. You're only explaining it with your speculation but can't address the rest of my arguments.

[irvinethearcher]

I wouldn't see a reason why they could remember and recreate a limb and offensive types couldn't. Clare remembered her limb perfectly but she couldn't do it because "she just wasn't made that way".
It was more a theory of mine. I wrote it the wrong way and stated it a an "understanding" or belief.
IMO it could be possible that def. types have in a way a better memory of their lost limbs and therefore are able to regenerate better. This would even go with the fact that def types intend to preserve them self.

About the yoki loss. IMO a claymore who loses its limb loses flesh which can create yoki but i doubt that a claymore like deneve who loses half of her body loses half of her yoki which is at the moment at her disposal.
I mean priscilla would have only perhaps 1/2^6 = 1/64 of her yoki as often as she was injured badly and lost let's say half of her body but i doubt that it works this way. That she looses some of her yoki i think is out of question. I hope you know where i want to get at.

Don't take my posts to serious anyway, at the moment i have not much time an when i write here i was approximately 13 hours at work.

[SeanQ]

Didn't Irene say that yoki moves to the area of the body that claymore wants to move? That's why Teresa was able to predict movements and such so easily...So Idk if yoki is actually created by body parts but just the core...but then Priscilla' s arm had still a large yoki to fight off the destroyer's infections on Raki (perhaps the arm was cut off before the yoki returned to the core)? Yoki flow seems to be instantaneous. So yeah, I think it's a core type of deal that creates the yoki and channels it to the area of the body, rather than body parts making yoki, so if you got your arm chopped off however much yoki was channeled to that arm is lost? Miata defies the rules of offensive sucking at regenerating... so I think it's more of a you either "can or you can't" type of thing...

[MalakTawus]

You don't know how fast youki flows in the body. For all we know it can be faster than electric impulses in human body.
Yeah,right.Not to mention that it's the brain that controls the body,and brains don't work with yoki,they work with elettric impulses....so your objection is useless here.

Since we've seen that even offensive warrior's arm was somehow connected to the main body (since Irene's arm reacted when Irene was killed by Rafaela)
This is just speculation.

it shouldn't be that strange that defensive warrior's arm would still act as if it was connected to the body and transfer youki back a bit later.
This would be VERY STRANGE.....and btw feeling yoki is VERY DIFFERENT than TRASFERRING YOKI.
Can't you see that trying to defend that theory you are making a lot of BASELESS speculations?

As for sensation of danger being controlled by the brain - it doesn't work that way for Claymores.
What the hell are you saying? This is ridiculous,it's 100% sure that the sensation of danger is controlled by fear and the example that you suggest makes absolutely NO SENSE!!!Even if it's not something done consciously there is no doubt that only the brain can control this things.
So that reaction can't be faster than the imput sent by the brain.

Somehow Claymores at 0% youki aren't as strong as humans but MUCH stronger. I'm surprised I have to explain it to you Malak.
Well,i've always thought that...but i wasn't so sure that even you thought the same,afterall in my theory if Deneve cut her arm,that arm is not strong like a normal human arm.
As for AFs, I thought you would mention them. They're not the same. Making them the same is impossible
Gooral,stop pretending to not understand what i was saying.
Those AFs are not identical,ok......but they are still VERY SIMILAR and can be considered the same in the sense that they have the same abilities and act exactly in the same way.
So from an experimental point of view they are basically the exact same result.
They all don't act the same. They have some general patterns they stick to but for example they don't attack the same person (one would attack one moving object, second the other etc.)
LOL,this is really ridiculous.Just because they don't do the exact same thing at the exact same time you say that they are different?
Hahahahaha!!Ok,if it makes you happy than in that sense they are different,lol......but still it's a fact that their behaviour is generally the same (or you can read "very very very similar"),even blind people can see this,lol.

So even if one of the three would attack them it wouldn't mean that all of them would attack.
Maybe,but the main point here is that even if only one of them attack the org,they are in deep shit.

My point was it was still more safe to divide strength because there would be a good chance they wouldn't act together since they would have different minds. All of them thinking to attack the organization and for example not each other would be less possible.
If even one of them attacks the org, the org is in big trouble ANYWAY since they wouldn't be able to stop that monster so there really is an advantage to not create one monster? No.
Not to mention that even the possibility that those 3 fight against each other is absolutely something that the org can't allow,since their situation would still be VERY CRITICAL,infact considering that they probably know that the ghosts will try to avenge Miria,the Mibs can consider themselves as good as dead (well, thechnically the twins and n.10 could be able to do something....but i wouldn't bet on them).
So in the end, to make those 3 monsters Dae has to be sure that he can control them,and if he can control them than it would be A LOT BETER to create only one super-monster.So my conclusion is that like i said using all the arm wouldn't make those monster any strong than using 1/3 of the arm (i explained this better in past posts)
They could make one, check how it would turn out and if it was good he could make another.
Yes,and like i said if something goes wrong it means instant death for them,lol.
It's obvious that Dae has already done this experiment with inferior flash so he probably already knows what to expect from this experiment.....just A LOT more powerful.
I don't know why but i have the feeling that Clarice may have something to do with this,maybe she's one of the "failures" (this is just baseless speculation).
And btw imo even just 1/3 of Prissy's flash is too precious for the org to be used without being certain of the success.

What? How it would make more sense to make a stronger warrior? In case sth went bad they would be completely screwed.
They would be screwed anyway if one of those 3 monster attacks them.It's not that you can be more dead than dead,lol.Infact i'm saying that Dae is sure that he can control those monsters.
In case 3 specimens went rouge (but it would be much harder and much less possible especially if they didn't make 3 at once) it would still be easier to deal with them by going after each one in intervals.
What the hell are you saying???They would be VERY STRONG!!!!Stronger than anything that the org has atm,so if they can't control them the only thing that they can do is preying that for some reason those 3 don't attack them,'cause if they do it's game over for the org (at least the org on the island).
As for being 100% sure, they would be as sure as with Alicia and Beth (who both lost themselves).
Infact they were very careful with Ali and Beth,but the situationis A LOT different now.Ali could have done something like Luc,but in this case Raph and Beth could be able to defend the org a bit........but the real difference is that at that time there wasn't a group of super strong warriors that are bloodthirsty....and the blood that the want is Mib's blood,lol.
So this time the top Mibs can't hide like they did with Luc and how they would have done with Ali,'cause the ghosts are not like the abyssals,they REALLY want to attack the org.

I understood perfectly your stupid reasoning. Irene knew that Clare would become stronger 5 times (her arm to be exact) before Clare even took her arm. She was able to estimate it by measuring their youki. It's obvious it's not the case here. Also if it was like you said Clare would notice the change and that more youki is being transferred there. In addition everyone knew that it was entirely different youki signature than Clare's.
First of all it was NEVER said that the yoki signature was different,NEVER,so stop saying false things as if they are fact,they simply noted that that arm was more powerful than the rest of her body and i explained how my theory explain this in a very simple and logical way.
Second thing,for all we know it could be VERY POSSIBLE that it's a known thing that if you take an arm from someone else,in the beginning that arm can be used at more or less at 50%,that's why Irene could know immediately that Claire would be able to use the QS at 50% of Irene's normal power.And btw i can easily prove that what you said on this point makes no sense:

-Irene's QS is at 100 yoki power (100 is the whole Irene's yoki power,since the QS works this way,you said it yourself to Falcor)
-Claire's QS is at 10 yoki power
-Claire with Irene's arm QS is at 50 yoki power

This means that one of Irene's arm alone can produce 40 yoki power,that is 40% of Irene's TOTAL yoki power.You know what this means,right?This means that what you said is an HUGE BS.
This was funny,especially since you said that my theory is stupid,lol.



And btw,my theory is stupid,and instead your theory that to be explained needs the ability to "turn off" the yoki an instant before getting hit to not lose the yoki,or that it needs the ability to transfer the yoki contained in a severed arm back to the main body should be the clever theory????
Ok..........

[rafael1932]

1 question that malak said is why claymores have more flesh like it was possible put arms in the back and thus have more yoki production; or why ofensive warriors like miria don’t give their fathom legs to everyone and then regenerate with yuma and company or even why clare don’t give her arm and legs to the ghosts and them regenerate them.
I thought it was clear that they already think that they are monsters- everyone single 1 says that and if they do that them they would loose also their identity. They would feel like monters that don’t have any link to the others( common people). So Helen has the miria fathom legs and the left arm of clare . in the end she would be who? Is totally mess out, just try to put in their shoes. In the end they would fell like monsters ( they already fell like that). And try to put arms and legs in their backs to increase their yoki power… is just mental blocking..just terrible if you put on her shoes.
Another thing about core theory’s is that they don’t esplain well why isley did not loose his yoki when hit by Helen combo. The reason how he loose it because he is different is kinda of lame. I am going to say again – lame. Why? Because you don’t find a good reason; is like just because. He did not die or loose yoki power just because. I cant find a good reason ( if we accept this as a reason) after all we want logical conclusions right?
My all theory have biological knowledge. Yep, cells produce energy; not in a single core like a car or airplane but in the all body. So in the end this core would be the body itself, flowing out in here and in there. I am the only 1 in here that study the cells and mitocondrias and DNA? No 1 back me in this subject?

Gooral
Your theory is deeply different from mine, although is very well written and have good points. I would like to wait for the future in order talk again. So I just have to find a Yuma or Tabitha growing back an offensive type to talk about this again; to give me reason. I really hope that Helen can be chop to the pieces * cross fingers*
According with those books that everyone talks is thabita offensive or defensive? Because Yuma patch her.

Damn so many posts and no time to read then

[MalakTawus]

1 question that malak said is why claymores have more flesh like it was possible put arms in the back and thus have more yoki production; or why ofensive warriors like miria don’t give their fathom legs to everyone and then regenerate with yuma and company or even why clare don’t give her arm and legs to the ghosts and them regenerate them.
I'm 100% sure that i NEVER said something like that,are you sure that it wasn't someone else?

Personally i think that we all can agree that warriors's cells produce power like in all living beings, but what we are discussing here is the origin of yoki-power,and about this matter there isn't a certain theory.

[Rava]

Sounds like it's a pretty simple theory then.

Theory:
Offensive warriors constantly refine and specialize their limbs to channel youki for their special attacks better. The price they pay for this is that if the limb is lost, they have to start over completely from scratch and restart on refining the newly regenerated limb again. (Think about how long they've been doing it before losing the limb...)

Defensive warriors on the other hand specialize in remaining whole. They sacrifice their offense so that if they need to regenerate a limb, it functions at 100%.

[Gooral]

Sounds like it's a pretty simple theory then.

Theory:
Offensive warriors constantly refine and specialize their limbs to channel youki for their special attacks better. The price they pay for this is that if the limb is lost, they have to start over completely from scratch and restart on refining the newly regenerated limb again. (Think about how long they've been doing it before losing the limb...)

Defensive warriors on the other hand specialize in remaining whole. They sacrifice their offense so that if they need to regenerate a limb, it functions at 100%.
It's not like that. We know thanks to Irene that offensive warrior can AT BEST (which means that some won't be able to do even that) regenerate a human arm. If it was like you say then with time it would become powerful and a Claymore arm again which is not the case. Also it wouldn't make sense why it would take her few months to just regenerate simple human arm. That's not a matter of simple youki channelling. Offensive Claymores clearly lack "material" to do it unlike defensive types. Plus it wouldn't make sense why from the start offensive Claymores would have more powerful attacks than defensive ones even though their arm wasn't refined yet.

[Rava]

It's not like that. We know thanks to Irene that offensive warrior can AT BEST (which means that some won't be able to do even that) regenerate a human arm. If it was like you say then with time it would become powerful and a Claymore arm again which is not the case. Also it wouldn't make sense why it would take her few months to just regenerate simple human arm. That's not a matter of simple youki channelling. Offensive Claymores clearly lack "material" to do it unlike defensive types. Plus it wouldn't make sense why from the start offensive Claymores would have more powerful attacks than defensive ones even though their arm wasn't refined yet.

Then it just means that the price they pay for their powerful attacks is that they never develop or just simply don't have the affinity for regenerative capabilities.

And what I meant about thinking how long they have been doing it is the fact that the Claymores are trained from little girls. That's a lot of years in between when they get infused and when they're actually considered "ready" to be a Claymore.

[Gooral]

Irene wouldn't say that she could at best regenerate human arm if with time it would become Claymore arm again. She didn't want to worry Clare then but wanted her to take her arm and become more powerful. If anything she would lie that she could regenerate her arm.
As for being trained from the young age. Clearly, some warriors are much powerful than others from the start. Take Miata for example or Priscilla or Riful or Teresa. This has nothing to do with refinement. We don't know any young defensive warrior even remotely powerful as one of them.

Edit:
In volume 1 Clare couldn't regenerate her stomach wound even though it was as close to the core as it gets. Your theory doesn't explain why she can't regenerate it. This part isn't being refined, it's not a limb. The only sensible explanation is that she lost material to do it. Your theory works only for limbs which are used regularly.

[An4rchy99]

Oh I loved that theory by NoSanninWa. Its quite detailed and well explained. (and yes its speculation, what else have we got? :p)

One thing I noticed missed out is, yes I can understand yoki can be present (according to him) or transfered to the host body. But I think if we assume that the youma flesh integrated within the limb makes the limb stronger and hence has a trace (the yoki signature if you will) of the donor yoki infused within the limb. (my point being youma flesh in the limb radiates donor's yoki, i.e. no need for a transfer or what so ever as we assume defensive types keeps yoki in vital point at all times while offensive types keep the yoki distributed through out the body making it permanently distributed throughout the body)

This actually works well and imo this theory is valid as Riful was also able to distinguish the arm being not Clares (which I assume she didn't formulate just due to the QS, but infact due the different yoki signature).

[SagaraSouske]

I think what Irene said is that she will take several month to regenerate a normal arm. It doesn't mean it's an human arm that cannot use youki. It just means it takes that long for her to fully regenerate her arm back to normal.

As for youki, the databook 1 has a description of youki. It's an aura that can be detected when yourouku, which is yoma power, is being used. . Yourouku or yoma power are generated by yoma flesh and blood. It is basically an energy that is generated by any parts of the body - cell generation of yoma power is probably the closest description. Later in the manga youki sort of become synonymous with yoma power in some usage. It became both the aura and the actual manifestation of yoma power.

I agree with Irvin as well as Malak that losing body parts does not equal to loss of youki. Regeneration can be consider as an innate ability that all claymore has but defensive type excel at it while offensive type suck at it. It prob has to do with how youki is utilized. Defensive type are very good at utilizing youki to regenerate and use youki every efficiently during regeneration while offensive warrior don't utilize youki to regenerate well and use it very inefficiently such that in order to regenerate limbs, larger amount of youki then they possess might be required to regenerate the limb due to the inefficiency. This can also explain why Abyssals and ABs, regardless of offensive or defensive type can all regenerate because efficient or not, they have more then enough youki pool to pull it off.

Databook 2 also described how warriors became defensive or offensive type. It occurs at the time of hybridization. It is the mental state of the claymore when they are being hybridized that determine which type they become. The process may imbue certain innate abilities such as youki sensing, youki release, regeneration, etc. The mentality of the claymore however changed the innate regeneration ability they get as well as inclination on the offensive skill they develop. Most offensive warriors develop skills that employ youki for destructive and powerful attacks, while defensive warriors focus on regeneration, defensive skills and tend not to develop powerful offensive special abilities. All the prominent defensive warriors, Galattea, Denev, those that died in Pieta etc all do not have offensive skills such as drill sword, quick sword etc.

The way youki works, I think is pretty similar to inner ki in the fictionalized martial arts world. It is something that is inherent in the body but can be harnessed and built up through training and time. The source flesh the claymore are imbued with is a pretty large determining factor, especially with certain special traits that are innate to some people - such as the rapid growth and youki cloak Pris has. But given training and time, the youki pool of any claymore can be improved and increased drastically. Utilization of said youki is just as important, without skills (both passive and active), having large amount of youki but can't utilize them is equally useless. Thus Claymore matures through both training of how to utilize their youki with special skills they develop as well as improve the amount of youki they possess over time.

[Gooral]

I think what Irene said is that she will take several month to regenerate a normal arm. It doesn't mean it's an human arm that cannot use youki. It just means it takes that long for her to fully regenerate her arm back to normal. (...)
You think? Not only did she say that AT BEST she would be able to regrow HUMAN arm, she also told Clare it would take her several months. She didn't say "I'll regrow human arm instantly but it will take few months for it to become powerful again". Ophelia said sth similar also.

[SagaraSouske]

You think? Not only did she say that AT BEST she would be able to regrow HUMAN arm, she also told Clare it would take her several months. She didn't say "I'll regrow human arm instantly but it will take few months for it to become powerful again". Ophelia said sth similar also.

Irene didn't say she will grow a human arm, just a normal arm. And I didn't mean regrowing human arm instantly and make it powerful in a few month. What I meant was in order to regrow the entire arm, it takes a few month.

Ophelia did make the comment that a high lvl offensive warriors will take a long time to grow back an arm that is no stronger then a human's. There are a couple possibilities here.

One, as Ophelia said, Offensive warriors regrowing a limb that is as effective as previous one is impossible. That can be taken as the flesh that is regenerated no longer has the same cells that generates youki. In other words, the arm is purely human flesh and not hybrid flesh that claymore has.

Two, Ophelia may not be able to do it herself but those that are stronger may, which later we see Irene's chapter and her words to Clare.

Three, the regenerated arm still possess cell that generate youki but needs to be retrained to regain formal abilities that can be used with it. In Irene's example, QS needs to be relearned with new arm. It will take some time but the arm will become just as powerful as before once it become aligned with the rest of the body.

Note, Irene choose not to regenerate her other arm due to her trying to hide and choose to run instead fight. It was Clare's will to fight that prompt her giving her remaining arm to Clare. So the issue there isn't a matter or whether it is possible or not but rather lack of willingness to do so.

[Gooral]

Irene said that she should be able to grow normal arm. She wasn't even sure of it herself. And connecting it to what Ophelia said in the same volume and not being fit for battle any more makes it obvious what she meant by "normal arm". Why would she even specify and call the arm she was going to grow "normal"? It would be obvious by default what she meant without adding "normal" word if she meant what you think she meant.

[An4rchy99]

I think a key factor here to consider here is how much of the yoma flesh has been infused into that limb. According to what I observed, the more a warrior comes closer to awakening, the more yoma flesh gets fused with the human flesh and hence making it more stronger (I am talking about raw power of the flesh, and not the yoki aura itself).

Hence I am inclined to think that the "normal arm" which Irene refers is an arm that is not infused with yoma flesh anymore (which I think Gooral interprets as a human arm).

EDIT: lol he explained it himself :D

[An4rchy99]

Btw this is a funny thing I have been thinking for while. And since we have been talking about Irene, I was wondering if she was the eye of her gen. As we have seen only 5 claymores in action for that gen and she seems to be the only one who excels in sensing yoki which seems to be so much better after her reappearance. She was good to the point where she can distinguish yoki signature and even recognize the true power of Raphaela which I doubt anyone has figured out after she started to suppress it.

[Gooral]

It's amazing how many things we notice during this discussion, i.e. it's a great topic for speculation and heated arguments. For example Anarchy noticed that Irene knew Rafaela was powerful. It's been discussed before but still it's an interesting point. Personally, I explain it that Irene assumed that a cloaked Claymore who was sent to kill her was powerful enough to counter her QS and by default she would be more powerful than her. If MiB thought that cloaked Rafaela was enough then uncloaked would definitely be enough. Not to mention that Irene knew that to become cloaked she needed years of not using youki and to perform her duties while still being cloaked was something very difficult to do. And it was rather obvious that #5 wouldn't be enough to defeat very, very strong #3, that's why she was surprised she was only #5.

On other matter I've noticed that Duff has cursed Galatea the same way he cursed Priscilla saying he would strip her, tear her arms off, etc. He has always had dirty mouth.

[SagaraSouske]

Granted, the most plausible interpretation of 'normal' given the context of what Ophelia said would be a human arm or an arm that cannot generate youki. It's still a leap of faith to suggest that losing the original arm you lose youki along with it. As Irving pointed out, this goes contrary with Priscilla example where she frequently gets most of her body blown away or heavily dmged and we see no visible reduction in her youki level. ABs that lose their body parts demonstrate the same - Slasher Arc Male AB, Agatha, and Rigardo have all lost limbs, body parts and did not see a reduced level of youki. Miria had a big hole in her stomach in slasher arc. She didn't get weaker later. Clare lost one arm, despite the arm she received from Irene, her youki level didn't drop.

[Gooral]

Like I said, for ABs entirely different rules apply. Once a Claymore becomes AB his whole body changes. Suddenly they have fangs instead of regular teeth (look at Clare when she was about to awaken her limbs, v.11 p.64, she had teeth like the Gonahl Awakened Being), they can change their size from being a kid to being like a mountain, they're whole body has unique properties and they can regenerate themselves even though they were offensive warriors. I don't see anything strange about it when it's compared to other things. On the other hand we know thanks to Irene and Ophelia that offensive Claymores are "not made that way".

As for Clare's youki not dropping when she lost her arm it's nothing strange. Her youki (her outer layer) jumped up. She lost her weak arm and gained more powerful one. Even if she didn't lose much youki then (because her real power was hidden and wasn't used in her arm) I'm pretty sure she lost some. It's also possible that with her own arm she would be able to use her youki more effectively or that her arm itself would produce youki which would depend on the amount of youki that was leaked from her core (so if she had access to her hidden powers, her arm would also become stronger and if she lost it then she would lose more youki).

Edit:
I'll add some tips to everyone and ask the right questions (and show my take on this, I can see what response and arguments I'll get from Malak or Falcor).

The question is why limb-attachment is possible while regeneration is not. With the limb gone they should start from scratch also even if they stuck it to the previous place. And there is a time limit for it in other words once the limb is gone you have limited time to connect it to the system. If offensive warriors had this power all the time in their core then I wouldn't see why they would have only limited number of chances to do that. Somehow Irene could reopen Clare's wound and give her her arm. They could always reopen the wound and start over if they've had youki in their core. And while Clare was doing it she was thinking of regeneration so it's possible she was indeed regenerating very small parts of her body, enough to reconnect the limbs. We also know thanks to Irene that limb reattachment requires much strength and that it's difficult to do. And why Claymores are able to fix their crushed limbs? Because they have youki in it.
I'm thinking that once the arm is outside the rest of the body and the contact with the core is stopped it begins to "die". While youki is still there it has no connection to the core which is necessary for it to "live". That would also explain why Irene could give Clare her arm. Even though it wasn't connected to Irene's core anymore, it was to Clare's (which was most probably even more powerful than Irene's).

I don't buy your idea Falcor because you don't explain why offensive Claymores have human arms only and why the excess of youki isn't redirected elsewhere. Do you think it suddenly comes back to the core and stays there until Claymore awakens or do you have some other idea?

[MalakTawus]

It's not like that. We know thanks to Irene that offensive warrior can AT BEST (which means that some won't be able to do even that) regenerate a human arm.
Tbh we can't be sure even about this point,infact it was Ophelia that said that,INSTEAD Irene said that she'll try to recreate an arm with her normal strenght (not human,like Ophy said!!!) even if she needs months to do it.......and judjing how good Miata is at regen even if she should be an attacking type,i'd say that it's not impossible for offensive types to regen,it's just that it's incredibly difficult so almost no one can do it.

In volume 1 Clare couldn't regenerate her stomach wound even though it was as close to the core as it gets.
Even if she needed more time,at the end she was able to regen,and btw at that time Claire's unlocked yoki was ridicolous,so it's perfectly possible that she didn't have the yoki necessary to heal faster than that.


I'll explain why imo offensive types can only attach arts and not regen them from zero:
imo offensive types can regen too,it's just that they are generally very bad at that so the best that they can do is regen only small parts of the body and are also a lot slower compared to the defensive types (infact they can heal normal wounds,even if not immediately like Deneve),so all they have to do to reattach their limbs is to regen ONLY the connection,and to do this it's obvious that the wound must be open....and you also have to consider that using the same trick that Irene did with Claire to reopen the wound with a new cut,it's a good iea only if you are taking the limb of someone else,if not this means that to reconnect the limb you have to regen a lot more (unless yo want to have a limb shorter than the others....).

Still,Miata has clearly showed,that even offensive types,if they have an enormous yoki,can regen a lot more (and a lot more faster) than what they should be able to do.
So in the end i don't think that there is a big difference with AB (infact Dauf and Rig were super bad at regen),i think the real difference is in the yoki power:if you have enormous yoki you can regen even if you are offensive type (Miata and Abyssals showed that it's possible)....and before someone says that Miata simply reattached her hands,it's 100% confirmed that she did a lot more than that.

My idea is that the body draws the yoki from the core,so obviously if a limb is missing the body will draw less yoki from the core, but it's not that the warrior has really lost the yoki,since the yoki is produced by the core.
If that warrior will get another arm,that new arm will draw again the yoki from the core,and if that new arm is a lot stronger than the others,it will draw a lot more yoki compared to the other limbs....and imo that's what really noticed Miria and the others:they didn't notice the different yoki signature (since imo there isn't one,the only yoki signature that Claire has is Teresa's signature,or very similar....and btw it was NEVER said that they felt a different yoki signature,never),but they noticed that that arm wasn't hers 'cause it was abnormally more powerful (A LOT more powerful) than the other limbs.


And if i'm not wrong Gooral,even your theory belives that there is a core in defensive types that produce and channel the yoki,right?
So won't be better for your theory to say that even defensive types lose the yoki that was infused in the cutted limbs?
Afterall yoki is something that is consumed while fighting,and when the warriors rest the core recreates the consumed yoki till normal level,no?
Why your theory needs something as strange as that "transfer" or "turn off yoki" ability, those things completely ruin your theory imo,and are not even really necessary as long as you think of the core as something that produce yoki,instead of being simply some sort of "heart for the yoki" (in the sense that channell the yoki around the body,similar to how the heart does with blood)....afterall it's a confirmed fact that yoki is consumed while fighting,no?

[An4rchy99]

@Gooral

Whats interesting to me was not only the fact that she was cloaked but she was sent to persecute Irene (former no.2). I know what you say makes perfect sense. She has to know this person (Raphaela) must have been incredibly strong, being strong enough to take her out. But what also interested me was that her next question. She immediately inquires about the eye. Its as if to say "you're so strong to even regenerate you're eye, yet you haven't." and she thinks hmmm did she get injured before she became a warrior? This must have been part of her deduction by only realizing the actual strength of Raphaela. Also recall the encounter trainee Teresa had with Raph... we all know Irene and Teresa were acquaintance (and speculated that they knew from training days)... And the scar was the only identification...?

And then we have Galatae who was the actual eye of her generation but inferior in terms raw power, and perhaps technique (Yoki manipulation) which makes it all more plausible to think Irene could have been the eye and only a cloaked warrior can even approach her without being detected until too late. Plus thinking about all this even made me speculate that Raphaela might have been the eye for her gen (Luceilla gen) as she seems also specialized in seeking out yoki signatures and is exceptionally good.

So in accordance with these observations whom do you think is/was the best eye/seeker ever?

Do we all think its the Galatae (scarred Gala) now? Or was it Raphaela for her long range seeking skills? Or Miata for unrivaled keen sense of smell to sense a target (though technically she is not the eye for her gen)?

[MalakTawus]

So in accordance with these observations whom do you think is/was the best eye/seeker ever?
Imo scarred Gala has no equals as an eye,but Raph seems to be the best seeker of all times.....Miata could be the best seeker potentially,but for now.......

Thinking about it,if Gala waits untill she is cloacked,she'll be the absolute best even as a seeker since it seems that she can "feel" even cloacked enemies now,so the "smell ability" is not needed for her.

[An4rchy99]

I know most of us would opt for Gala. She's the best at long range detection.

I wonder how exactly Miata's smell seeking works... it was never mentioned how exactly she got the scent of Gala but its possible that she works similar AF and org kept some remnants of Gala.

@Malak


(.....)

Still,Miata has clearly showed,that even offensive types,if they have an enormous yoki,can regen a lot more (and a lot more faster) than what they should be able to do.
So in the end i don't think that there is a big difference with AB (infact Dauf and Rig were super bad at regen),i think the real difference is in the yoki power:if you have enormous yoki you can regen even if you are offensive type (Miata and Abyssals showed that it's possible)....and before someone says that Miata simply reattached her hands,it's 100% confirmed that she did a lot more than that.

(.....)



You know here there is a bit of a contradiction. If they need enormous yoki to regen this clearly should make it possible for Riglado and Daff to regen instantly however this was not the case as it was observed (in case of Daff explained by Riful) that they sucked at regen as claymores (for obvious reasons) and even in AB form they can't seem to do it well. I.e they need time to regen lost limbs. This clearly indicates that yoki power is not the only key factor here (as obviously those two's yoki would simply dwarf Miata, or any claymore for that matter). They need to have some basic skills in regen and they probably sucked at even basic regen as claymores. Though I agree to your general idea that AB with more power can regen much more easily and quickly such as Riful or Isley (though they are already AO's). However they should also have some basic affinity in survival and not be all guts and glory (commando style) to have some or very little survival instincts which is dominant in defensive types. (hope this makes sense :p)

[MalakTawus]

If they need enormous yoki to regen this clearly should make it possible for Riglado and Daff to regen instantly however this was not the case as it was observed
Mind that what i'll say now is just a pure speculation that could explain this:
-maybe awakened flash needs more yoki to regen compared to normal warrior's flash,this way the problem would be scaled for normal warriors and AB: Dauf and Rig are just very powerful AB,but still greatly inferior to AO level......in other words abyssals can regen their awakened flash 'cause they have immense yoki,in the same way (with due proportions) Miata can regen her "normal" flash since she has an immense yoki (afterall she surely would be AO-level if she awakens)....i don't know if was clear,if you don't understand what i mean i could try to explain better.

However they should also have some basic affinity in survival and not be all guts and glory (commando style) to have some or very little survival instincts which is dominant in defensive types. (hope this makes sense )
Yes,yes this makes sense,but here the problem seems to be that these types don't use regen,not because they surely can't regen (well,maybe they really can't,but we can't be 100% sure),but because they are not very focused on survival.

I wonder how exactly Miata's smell seeking works...
This is really a mystery.We know for sure that her range isn't very big,since the Mibs sent Clarice and Miata already in the "general location" where Gala was hiding, but those two weren't able to find Gala immediately.
And personally i'm not even sure that Miata and AFs ability is the same,it surely seems to have something in common,but i don't know,something doesn't convince me.

[An4rchy99]

Yes,yes this makes sense,but here the problem seems to be that these types don't use regen,not because they surely can't regen (well,maybe they really can't,but we can't be 100% sure),but because they are not very focused on survival.

Thats exactly my point here. Its not that they can't. But they need time to focus their energy and cool their hot tempered minds :p

btw I did get your point. It makes sense since the whole flesh would be 100% fused (unlike claymores). And imagine the unique properties each shell of the AB (namely Riglado and Daff) had. Their shell need not only be of the same quality but should also retain the same properties, hence like you say, requires an even greater power and a great deal of time.

I can understand why with claymore's we have different views. Since the regen for claymores seems specific to certain battle types and then we have special cases of uber strong claymores (just like AO in the annals of AB's). So if we apply the same concepts its possible to explain both their cases. Its should work as normally defensive type AB (by claymore origins) seems better at regen as well, and only uber strong AB can regen instantly. In case of claymores even uber strong takes time, but they can definitely do it.

Also an interesting side note is, since now we have seen yoki manipulation, the ability to regen in claymores seems a little insignificant as even offensive types such as Helen can even regen an eye with the aid of manipulation.

[MalakTawus]

Do you think it's possible for a claymore to have a "drain yoki" ability?Or maybe an ability to force the opponent to suppress her yoki (in other words some sort of manipulation different from what we have seen)....lol, there are so many fun abilities that would be possible......
(btw i'm not talking about destroyer's ability,since that seems to be a lot more than a simple yoki draining ability)

well,Gala was able to do something similar to the suppression ability (even if i don't remember wrong it was different,she acted on Claire's consciousness) , but i mean someone capable of using that during battle in an efficient way.

Also an interesting side note is, since now we have seen yoki manipulation, the ability to regen in claymores seems a little insignificant as even offensive types such as Helen can even regen an eye with the aid of manipulation.
Agree,but if you are able to use regen like Deneve.........
......if instead you are as good as Yuma,you don't have any real advantage during the battle.

[An4rchy99]

Thats very interesting. If you remember the turtle AB in Pieta was able to manipulate yoki in such a way. If by forcing over the limit can mean leaking the yoki unintentional. I am sure this drain is very different from destroyer's ability and the victim (seen in Undine) was exhausted (also she was terrified).

Well this is an AB. And the caliber of its manipulation according to Claire was way beyond what Gala could do. Since Yagi has shown us that emotions also could be manipulation via yoki this could be very much possible if a warrior was specifically trained in the arts. Infact yoki manipulation imo is the most valuable skill in claymore skill set as it is very diverse and is the only ability to directly influence another warrior.

And btw since Gala can help/aid in yoki suppression (or control) she must be also capable or know how to drive the yoki berserk and leak aura. This is very interesting... only if we have seen her yoki skills more often :uhoh: I know this is a assumption, but its logical that its easier to learn to drive something crazy than to learn precise control and suppression (as observed by many claymores going berserk and awakening; rarely having the ability to control or maintain precise yoki limits)

......if instead you are as good as Yuma,you don't have any real advantage during the battle.

lol for sure. But I am sure next time Yuma would do better. She has certainly improved her yoki manipulation good enough which in turn might help her regen better.

[MalakTawus]

Agree 100% with your post,An4rchy99.

lol for sure. But I am sure next time Yuma would do better. She has certainly improved her yoki manipulation good enough which in turn might help her regen better.
Agree,she's certainly improving very well,and if Cinzia takes her time to teach Yuma how to heal others even better, she could be super useful for the ghosts......still i don't think her ever gaining a regen talent as Deneve......unless she also becomes a semi-awakened,at that point maybe.....


...but when i said a drainer-ability user i didn't mean someone that only makes the enemy leak yoki,but that she's actually capable of stealing the yoki from the opponent,this is something that we have never seen (since the destroyer's ability drains a lot more than just yoki,lol) and that could be quite interesting.

[Shiek927]

Cinzia? Their are spelling mistakes, and then their are spelling mistakes :heh:

(I kid I kid :heh:)

[An4rchy99]

...but when i said a drainer-ability user i didn't mean someone that only makes the enemy leak yoki,but that she's actually capable of stealing the yoki from the opponent,this is something that we have never seen (since the destroyer's ability drains a lot more than just yoki,lol) and that could be quite interesting.

True, the only ability even close to this is destroyer's uber skill. But when you think about it in terms of RPG games destroyer has the ability to leech both HP and MP where as you're only looking to see if a claymore can steal just MP (MP = yoki and HP = life force).

Well in claymore verse this cannot be possible unless the being is so much greater both in terms of HP and MP like destroyer as we know yoki for each claymore is unique and vary in both power and quality. This leads to a lot of fundamental issue in claymore. For example for a claymore to attempt to steal yoki from a stronger opponent can lead to awakening by simply driving the attacker's yoki wild and out of control. In the reverse case where the attacker has greater yoki power and quality than a weaker warrior, theoretically it should be possible; though I cannot still practically understand how the yoki energy could be utilized or stored for the attacker's usage as there is noway of retaining leaked yoki anymore. As far as I can understand leaked energy is a waste residual from yoki flowing through that particular limb or the whole body for that matter. In case of destroyer it is possible to steal yoki because it steals the source of yoki itself (yoma / fused flesh) and thus does not necessarily mean it is stealing radiating or leaking yoki aura (shown by the way it shaved off yoki and the arm of Deneve).

ps. hope this makes sense at all :heh: :uhoh:

[SagaraSouske]

Thats exactly my point here. Its not that they can't. But they need time to focus their energy and cool their hot tempered minds :p

btw I did get your point. It makes sense since the whole flesh would be 100% fused (unlike claymores). And imagine the unique properties each shell of the AB (namely Riglado and Daff) had. Their shell need not only be of the same quality but should also retain the same properties, hence like you say, requires an even greater power and a great deal of time.

I can understand why with claymore's we have different views. Since the regen for claymores seems specific to certain battle types and then we have special cases of uber strong claymores (just like AO in the annals of AB's). So if we apply the same concepts its possible to explain both their cases. Its should work as normally defensive type AB (by claymore origins) seems better at regen as well, and only uber strong AB can regen instantly. In case of claymores even uber strong takes time, but they can definitely do it.

Also an interesting side note is, since now we have seen yoki manipulation, the ability to regen in claymores seems a little insignificant as even offensive types such as Helen can even regen an eye with the aid of manipulation.

What you said here basically describes why Offensive Warrior can't regen well and why Off AB takes time to regen. It's a lack of skill in regen. If you think regen as a skill and offensive type are not good at it and defensive type are good at it, that will explain why ABs all can regen (they have enough youki) and yet offensive type seems to be a lot slower in regeneration and require more focus. The whole assisted regen with youki manipulation is basically outside assistance that makes regen faster and better, which still goes back to the manipulation and control of youki to regen. Helen sucks at doing it herself but with the help of someone who is good at regen(def type) and youki manipulation, she can regen faster.

As for it being insignificant, I would think youki manipulation is a skill few claymores possess as it is a skill that require high degree of youki control. If you see the chart in data book 3 describing the different techniques warriors have, youki manipulation is the one requires the most control. Only Galatea initially had it and then she taught Clare and most likely Clare taught the other ghosts that are more apt with sensing during their seven year training. So it's not something trivial that any claymore can do and assist others in regeneration.

[SagaraSouske]

On the subject of Raph seeking out Irene. I don't think she is actively seeking Irene but rather have general orders to seek out rogue claymores. It was due to Clare's training, Irene's use of QS leaked enough youki to be detected by Raph who happens to be close enough.

I don't really think Irene is the eye of her generation and eyes generally do not get assigned to execution squads since Org deem them to be more valuable. Also, if Irene is the eye, she would have better accessment of Teresa and Priscilla's youki before Pris do 80% release and Teresa's 10% release. Pris dropped cloak and released and Teresa was never cloaked.

I could be wrong on this, it seems eyes are all defensive warriors.

[MalakTawus]

Cinzia? Their are spelling mistakes, and then their are spelling mistakes :heh:

(I kid I kid :heh:)
Well,it's not really a spelling mistake,it's just her name in italian,lol.

True, the only ability even close to this is destroyer's uber skill. But when you think about it in terms of RPG games destroyer has the ability to leech both HP and MP where as you're only looking to see if a claymore can steal just MP (MP = yoki and HP = life force).

Well in claymore verse this cannot be possible unless the being is so much greater both in terms of HP and MP like destroyer as we know yoki for each claymore is unique and vary in both power and quality. This leads to a lot of fundamental issue in claymore. For example for a claymore to attempt to steal yoki from a stronger opponent can lead to awakening by simply driving the attacker's yoki wild and out of control. In the reverse case where the attacker has greater yoki power and quality than a weaker warrior, theoretically it should be possible; though I cannot still practically understand how the yoki energy could be utilized or stored for the attacker's usage as there is noway of retaining leaked yoki anymore. As far as I can understand leaked energy is a waste residual from yoki flowing through that particular limb or the whole body for that matter. In case of destroyer it is possible to steal yoki because it steals the source of yoki itself (yoma / fused flesh) and thus does not necessarily mean it is stealing radiating or leaking yoki aura (shown by the way it shaved off yoki and the arm of Deneve).

ps. hope this makes sense at all

Makes sense.Well,i guess i can still hope in a yoki-suppressor warrior.....i would have really liked someone with the ability to steal yoki,sigh.....i would have called her "<<name>> the vampire"......(even if they probably wouldn't have called that way since we are not sure if they know what vampires are in Claymore's world,lol)

[revan5]

Cinzia? Their are spelling mistakes, and then their are spelling mistakes :heh:

(I kid I kid :heh:)

Their are grammatical mistakes, and then their are grammatical mistakes. Or should I say 'there', eh Shiek? FYI Shiek, while lecturing someone on their spelling, try not to do so while making two easily fixed and noticeable grammatical mistakes. :) ;) :p

[An4rchy99]

@SagaraSouske

I did say yoki manipulation as being the most useful skill so far in the claymore skill set, as it is very diverse and primarily is limitless if one knows how to make use of it :p I agree that attaining yoki manipulation is one of the most difficult skill sets as it not only strains the user but needs to have perfect control over the yoki of the user and they also needs to be able to read the flow of yoki from the receiver as well.

- - - -

Its true that all the eyes we know are defensive type. But according to Raph she said that Irene was the one she was seeking and she couldn't locate her for a long time. It might be true that she was seeking out other warriors but in the mist of all this Irene's signature popped up. Still you've gotta admit that this is no ordinary level of detection...

And about Irene, her being offensive type doesn't make her a non candidate for the eye role. As we have seen from Claire, pre 7 years she got a rough equivalent level of detection to Gala's which no other claymore displayed back then in her gen (I mean not on par or anything but even slightly close to Gala's level). So Irene is not out of the loop. And imagine this, we knew that Teresa was always suppressing her yoki going by this fact she never used yoki at any point in time that we know of recently or any time sooner for that matter. Therefore its fair to assume an eye was needed to seek her location out. And from all the warriors gathered to purge Teresa whom do you think was the most likely candidate? imo it was Irene. Of course she couldn't properly gauge the power of neither (Teresa and Priscilla). This is not her fault as no one ever has been able to figure these two out due to their sheer level of yoki power and superior suppressive abilities (but mostly due to the vastly different level of power). Its fair to say that the yoma which was slain by Teresa might have attracted the unwanted attention but as good as Teresa was in cloaking her yoki it is normal to assume a person with detection abilities would pin point her location. Oh well this is me ranting. I was just curious as in Teresa gen all the warriors were uber uber strong... and their eye must have been godly!

- - - -

@Malak

AB and youma already eat flesh lol! and we have claymores who get obsessed with blood. Hence Blood soaked Ophelia :heh:

I can't even imagine a worst monster than youma in the claymore world... how bad can it get? They already eat humans :uhoh:

[irvinethearcher]

Like I said, for ABs entirely different rules apply.

ok, but what is with deneve? Each time she looses a limb she looses one quarter of her yoki? Okay, deneve is half awakened but despite that, my instincts are saying me that yoki will move faster to the core of the body than the edge of the enemies sword is able to cut the limb because yoki is energie and moves with the speed of light.
Perhaps yoki tends to stay at the main source of its own signature? Who knows...

[Gooral]

Deneve is a defensive type so she doesn't loose any youki. Go back to my first post on that matter. (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=3391162#post3391162)

[Shiek927]

Their are grammatical mistakes, and then their are grammatical mistakes. Or should I say 'there', eh Shiek? FYI Shiek, while lecturing someone on their spelling, try not to do so while making two easily fixed and noticeable grammatical mistakes. :) ;) :p

Easily? Revan, the "there/their/they're" is the bane of my existence; never figured it out, probably never will :heh:

[MalakTawus]

Energy moves at the speed of light?????

[Verkruk]

On the matter of Riful, Luciela, and Isley.
I think its a safe bet to say that the order was Isley, Luciela then Riful.
I say that because of when Riful chose to make a move against either of the other two. She choose to make a move after their fight had occurred.
And it is a personal belief that Isley chose Luciela instead of Riful because she posed the greater threat.

Attackers and Defenders and limb regeneration.

I think that it is more likely that defender types are able to not only regrow limbs but youki as well. Whereas an attacker is not able to duplicate the regrowth of youki like a defender is.

So why not make them limb donors?
Because the quality of the youki is what is different. Attacker and Defender youki are to different from each other to occupy the same space.
Even amongst attackers when the quality of the youki is different it is noticeable as they seem to occupy separate parts of the body rather than blending as a whole singular unit.

[MalakTawus]

I think its a safe bet to say that the order was Isley, Luciela then Riful.
Trust me,this discussion can be many things,but "safe" surely is not one of them,lol.
Infact personally i don't agree,but i'll avoid to restart this discussion (at least for now).

[Verkruk]

Trust me,this discussion can be many things,but "safe" surely is not one of them,lol.
Infact personally i don't agree,but i'll avoid to restart this discussion (at least for now).

Oh it is very safe! :heh:
I said so, and I talk to myself all the time, and we always agree on that part of the story :twitch:;)

[Shiek927]

On the matter of Riful, Luciela, and Isley.
I think its a safe bet to say that the order was Isley, Luciela then Riful.
I say that because of when Riful chose to make a move against either of the other two. She choose to make a move after their fight had occurred.
And it is a personal belief that Isley chose Luciela instead of Riful because she posed the greater threat.

I see it more like this Riful|Luciella>Alicia|Isley.

Riful is much more comparable to Luciella and Alicia is much more comparable to Isley.

I wouldn't say Riful was weaker then Luciella; you say Isley went after her because she was the greater threat, but i say the same thing because she was weaker. Luciella as a faction, was much weaker because she didn't want any comrades (stupid), not to mention Priscilla wanted the South and he had to get it for her, even if it wasn't his primary concern.

In a sense, I suppose it's mute, at least for me, because I think any differences between Riful and Luciella is minor; as a whole, all the differences between the Abyssals is minor...but they are definitely there.

[MalakTawus]

Imo the difference between abyssals are just a matter of context or ability-affinity.
Even Luciela fought against Isley for a very long time (Riful confirmed this),and was defeated only at the very end (leaving Isley without any energy,infact he wasn't even able to follow Luc to kill her)........if something like that happens between two fighters it means that they are equal,and if you repeat the fight a second time it's very possible that the one that losed the first fight will win the second.
The same can be said about all 4 (5 considering Beth) of them,different situations can give one the advantage over the other since their fighting style is very different,but in the end it's quite pointless trying to prove that one was stronger than the other when there is absolutely no certain proof on this matter (and there probably never will be one at this point,since all 4 (5) are dead).

[Shiek927]

Even Luciela fought against Isley for a very long time (Riful confirmed this),and was defeated only at the very end (leaving Isley without any energy,infact he wasn't even able to follow Luc to kill her)........if something like that happens between two fighters it means that they are equal,and if you repeat the fight a second time it's very possible that the one that losed the first fight will win the second.

you actually think Luciella has a chance of beating Isley?

Here we go again...

Malak, Isley barely got a few scraps; we know from the AE's just how hard he can push himself, fighting even when he's on his last legs (litterally); he barely put up any of the effort he did in his final fight as he did against Luciella, not to mention it was Luciella who ran away. They were both at full power, no excuse at that front.

Isley didn't follow Luciella because he knew Riful would show up, and he wanted to pull off his deception. He transformed back on his own free-will to feign weakness and draw Riful out, not because he was weak and depleted like Luciella was; again, we know from the AE's what his borderline is and how far he can and will push himself in potentially-fatal situations; his fight with Luciella was no where near one.

It's not speculation, nor does style have anything to do with it; if we see one defeating the other, it doesn't get much more plainer then that; circumstance has nothing to do with it because, again, it's not like one was handicapped in anyway; it was a fair one-on-one fight in every regard. Luciella running away like a scared kitty just shows who was the superior one. You can argue that Alicia's scythes are effective because Riful's strips are so thin, but it's an overstated advantage because her scythes can cut through just about anything anyway; Riful's strips are super-strong, blocking Alicia's sword; they just look thin and tender, which means Alicia's scythes would have to have been stronger in order to cut through so easily; more to the point, Riful wasn't able to keep up with Alicia at all and attack until she slowed down due to Beth; a simple indicator of who was really superior.

We know Isley is stronger then Luciella and we know Alicia is stronger then Riful...since we don't know how the fights would go if everything was vice-versa, is how I can my outlook on the subject.

[Aimless]

And it is a personal belief that Isley chose Luciela instead of Riful because she posed the greater threat.

Isley chose Luciela because Priscilla wanted to go south. No other reason.

And Priscilla certainly didn't care about any hypothetical rank ordering of Abyssals when she made that decision.

[Verkruk]

you actually think Luciella has a chance of beating Isley?

Here we go again...

Malak, Isley barely got a few scraps; we know from the AE's just how hard he can push himself, fighting even when he's on his last legs (litterally); he barely put up any of the effort he did in his final fight as he did against Luciella, not to mention it was Luciella who ran away. They were both at full power, no excuse at that front.

Isley didn't follow Luciella because he knew Riful would show up, and he wanted to pull off his deception. He transformed back on his own free-will to feign weakness and draw Riful out, not because he was weak and depleted like Luciella was; again, we know from the AE's what his borderline is and how far he can and will push himself in potentially-fatal situations; his fight with Luciella was no where near one.

I'm going to have to call you on this one.
If Isley really wanted to draw Riful out, he would have had to have had Priscilla way out of the way. The moment Riful sees Pris she knows she can't win, wouldn't even stand a chance. I think it is more than fair to say that the fight with Luciella did indeed tax Isley a great deal. They are after all both AO level creatures and would only attack each other if they felt that they had a fair to moderate chance of coming out on top. Priscilla tipped that balance way in his favor, with her on his side he could then afford to fight these other AO creatures because if he loses Pris is there. If he wins, Pris is there.

We know Isley is stronger then Luciella and we know Alicia is stronger then Riful...since we don't know how the fights would go if everything was vice-versa, is how I can my outlook on the subject.

I can't say that I know for certain, but I am inclined to agree.
It felt that Riful was collecting people in order to gain equal footing with the other two, more specifically Isley. And then gain the advantage over the other two so that she could claim everything or at the very least balance the power again.
While Luciella seemed arrogant and to stubborn for her own good, I use the "conversation" between her and her sister as a basis for that statement.

[Verkruk]

Isley chose Luciela because Priscilla wanted to go south. No other reason.

And Priscilla certainly didn't care about any hypothetical rank ordering of Abyssals when she made that decision.

He may be her "General" but I highly doubt that is the main reason or really even a reason at all.
His plans had been in the making long before he ran into Priscilla.
He even had the #2 Rigaldo on his side by that time, and the former #4 as well.
Along with an unknown amount of various ABs on his side and was waiting for an opportunity to strike.

Him going south because Priscilla "wanted" to doesn't make sense with the way we have seen Isley portrayed. He is cunning, smart, patient and more than capable as a tactician and knows way to much. So him going south was likely already a part of his plan and Priscilla simply gave him the excuse and the opportunity that he was looking for.

[Shiek927]

Isley chose Luciela because Priscilla wanted to go south. No other reason.

Well, yes and no...honestly, I feel he was looking for an excuse and he got one; Priscilla wasn't even a part of his strategy in conquering the South, just in keeping Riful and everyone else out.

He chose the South because he wanted the South first,(no doubt because Luciella was the weaker of the two) and to appease Priscilla second...he's not that nice of a guy.

Roflmao, you posted first and ended up agreeing with me Verkruk :heh:

I'm going to have to call you on this one.
If Isley really wanted to draw Riful out, he would have had to have had Priscilla way out of the way. The moment Riful sees Pris she knows she can't win, wouldn't even stand a chance. I think it is more than fair to say that the fight with Luciella did indeed tax Isley a great deal. They are after all both AO level creatures and would only attack each other if they felt that they had a fair to moderate chance of coming out on top. Priscilla tipped that balance way in his favor, with her on his side he could then afford to fight these other AO creatures because if he loses Pris is there. If he wins, Pris is there.

Verkruk, I will repeat what I said just now: how exactly did this battle tax him? Did he lose any limbs? Did he summon his ultimate sword? Did he use as many arrows as he did against the AE's?

You can argue that we didn't see much of the actual fight, but we see Isley in the aftermath to know that the battle didn't tax him much; all he got, were a few scrapes and bruises. Is he tired? Probably, because they are both Abyssals no doubt like you said....but again, we know from the AE's just how much power he really has and how far he will go to fight till the very end...one look at Isley after the fight show us that he didn't put any where near amount the effort...he certainly wasn't in anywhere near a condition where he would be forced to transform back like Luciella was.

Priscilla was way out of the way....she didn't even show up till after the fight; she was busy in the house with Raki; what does this imply? perhaps he had a conversation with her prior, maybe he was simply counting on her faith in him in finding her family that she would show up and defend him; she didn't show up until Riful came out, just as he predicted.

I can't say that I know for certain, but I am inclined to agree.
It felt that Riful was collecting people in order to gain equal footing with the other two, more specifically Isley. And then gain the advantage over the other two so that she could claim everything or at the very least balance the power again.
While Luciella seemed arrogant and to stubborn for her own good, I use the "conversation" between her and her sister as a basis for that statement.

I'm talking power, not strategy; Isley is stronger then Luciella, and Alicia is stronger then Riful.... but I might as well say, yes, Isley was lucky from the very beginning...he had an entire army and then, an ultimate weapon, whereas Riful spent the entire war just getting people by her side. Luciella said in her conversation with Isley that she "doesn't care for groups"; again, arrogant and stupid.

[MalakTawus]

Shiek,Isley just had a few scraps????
It's a fact that he wasn't even able to stand,lol.

Isley didn't follow Luciella because he knew Riful would show up, and he wanted to pull off his deception. He transformed back on his own free-will to feign weakness and draw Riful out, not because he was weak and depleted like Luciella was; again, we know from the AE's what his borderline is and how far he can and will push himself in potentially-fatal situations; his fight with Luciella was no where near one.
I said that there are no proofs,and this above surely isn't one, on the contrary it's a speculation that doesn't even make a lot of sense.Isley was exaused,he wasn't pretending,infact even while talking to Riful he still wasn't even able to stand,stop denying the evidence.
It's a fact that Isley won that fight,but it's also a fact that they fought for a long time and that Isley was completely exausted at the end,denying this means being blind fanboys/fangirls.
At best i can admit that Isley had more the courage and honor of a true warrior,and that it's probable that he was a little bit stronger than Luc,but this surely isn't certain.....


It's not speculation, nor does style have anything to do with it; if we see one defeating the other, it doesn't get much more plainer then that
Sorry Shiek,but this is really stupid.If you put two warriors that have the same strenght fighting in a mortal battle one against the other what do you think that will happen?
Do you think that they'll go on fighting 4ever,untill one of the two dies from natural death????
This is ridicolous.If two warriors have the same strenght they'll probably fight for a long time but in the end there will be a winner,and this is exactly what happened between Luc and Isley.

we know Alicia is stronger then Riful
Lol,i surely don't agree with this.Ali had A LOT of advantages in that battle and Riful was still studying her opponents,and considering that she was already finding their weakness and that she had the situation in control i'd say that it's impossible to know if Ali is really stronger.
They surely weren't fighting on the same conditions,so that UNFINISHED fight can't be used to determine if Ali was stronger than Riful,and even if you say that Ali was pressuring Riful this means nothing,afterall it wouldn't make sense if Ali didn't have the upper hand in the beginning of the fight since they used a surprise attack against an enemy that they were trained to fight against fo years,while Riful didn't even know what kind of awakened Ali was.

Did he lose any limbs?
No,but did Luc lose any limbs?No!
Did he summon his ultimate sword? Did he use as many arrows as he did against the AE's?

WE DON'T KNOW!!!!!!!! Stop pretending to know something that WASN'T SHOWNW in the manga!!!!!
Of that fight we have only seen the very beginning and the afterfight!!!!!!
We know from Riful that the fight was LONG!!!We have no idea of what the hell actually happened in that fight.
....ohhhh,i feel lighter.....
Like i said,the best we can do about this matter are good-to-read speculations, but everyone that tries to claim to have proofs,he's only lying,there are no proofs here.

[Shiek927]

Shiek,Isley just had a few scraps????
It's a fact that he wasn't even able to stand,lol.

Roflmao, um, are we looking at the same page?

....

Roflmao, Malak, I'm honestly not really going to respond to anything you said; just looking at it, I can tell you really didn't read my posts, as well as the fact that you were in a huge rush for whatever reason to post some responses; just looking at the spelling mistakes, abbreviations for Alicia and so on, is kind of a big clue.

The only things that really caught my attention were this:

This is ridicolous.If two warriors have the same strenght they'll probably fight for a long time but in the end there will be a winner,and this is exactly what happened between Luc and Isley.

Yep....and who won that fight Malak?

this

No,but did Luc lose any limbs?No!

Right, I'm supposed to pretend the cut tails on the ground don't count as limbs.

and this

Shiek,Isley just had a few scraps????
It's a fact that he wasn't even able to stand,lol.

Because I honestly don't see what your "lol" is for; if we're both looking at the same picture, we can clearly see scrapes is all he has; a chipped spear, a busted jaw....certainly not loss of any limbs like against the Eaters.

Not to mention he was clearly standing and if you disagree, then you're obviously not looking at the same page and/or haven't expressed yourself clearly enough.

[MalakTawus]

And just to be clear,my personal opinion is that Isley is indeed a bit stronger than Luc (only a bit),but the manga doesn't give us a concrete proof about that,so it could be possible that Isley won that fight simply because he fought better in that occasion.
And btw we are considering who was stronger,not who was more powerful,since about power between Isley and Luc we know NOTHING.It could also be that they had the same power but Isley had better skill.

just looking at the spelling mistakes, abbreviations for Alicia and so on, is kind of a big clue.
Lol,that abbreviations are something that i use very often and in case you haven't noticed i make ALWAYS a lot of spelling mistakes (infact my posts are full of edits 'cause sometimes i feel to correct them...not always,and surely not when it's very late).
Btw it's clear that what you say about me makes no sense since we had the exact same discussion in the past and no one of us has changed opinion,so you should know very well that i'm quite superficial in analyzing this since there is nothing that i haven't already heard from you about this (and viceversa).

The only BIG difference in this is that even if i have a personal opinion i know that i can't have a concrete proof,you instead insist to present your personal opinion as a fact,even if it's just a speculation,exactly like mine.


Yep....and who won that fight Malak?
Isley,but in case you haven't grasped what i was saying with my example:it's in the initial hypothesis that the two fighter have the same strenght!!!!
Even in a fight between two identical Isley,it's not so strange for one of the two to win the fight!!!

Right, I'm supposed to pretend the cut tails on the ground don't count as limbs.
Incredible!!!!!
n.5 was able to cut some of Riful's tentacles!!!! This means that she is stronger than..........no i was wrong.

Because I honestly don't see what your "lol" is for; if we're both looking at the same picture, we can clearly see scrapes is all he has; a chipped spear, a busted jaw....certainly not loss of any limbs like against the Eaters.

Not to mention he was clearly standing and if you disagree, then you're obviously not looking at the same page and/or haven't expressed yourself clearly enough.
When talking to Riful,he's so exausted that he isn't even able to stand,that pic.
He is a true warrior and was able to endure untill the end of the fight against Luc,at the very end of the fight probably was able to stand in his awakened form only pushing himself a lot (like we have seen him do with the AFs).....but if we consider that he wanted to kill Luc,in the end he failed his mission.
Anyway it seems that even Isley wasn't able to understand Prissy's real power,if not he wouldn't have any reason to attack Luc since even Luc+Riful had 0% possibilities to defeat Prissy......

[Shiek927]

And just to be clear,my personal opinion is that Isley is indeed a bit stronger than Luc (only a bit),but the manga doesn't give us a concrete proof about that,so it could be possible that Isley won that fight simply because he fought better in that occasion.
And btw we are considering who was stronger,not who was more powerful,since about power between Isley and Luc we know NOTHING.It could also be that they had the same power but Isley had better skill.

Strength, power, skill, style; great, now it's a semantics game. Why can't things ever be simple? :eyespin:

Nevermind, this is getting nowhere fast; that's what I get for being bored and responding to this topic :heh:. Time for something new :heh:

[Verkruk]

Yep....and who won that fight, Malak?


Um, no.
Revan did, duh.

As for this whole argument/so called debate +)
I'm going to be a tad bit chauvinistic and say, Men are physically stronger than females. Typically, not always but usually. Natural selection and all that wonderful works.

So if we take a little of what we think are the factors in determining the strength of each character in this particular verse than we have personal strength and capabilities and then what is gained post infection.

So from the start the Male generation would have been at the very least the physically stronger generation as a norm rather than an exception.
True this is pure supposition but I guess its a good a guess as anything else out there.


This also ties into the personal potential of each person or Claymore.
As humans there is a theoretical maximum limit of muscle mass that we can accumulate before it begins to become redundant, gets in the way or breaks the skeletal structure itself due to the stress imposed on the bones.

But a person can continually gain strength even outside of the mass via various styles of workout that may focus on strength rather than mass.

Teresa and Clare are perfect examples of this, imo.
Teresa was in many opinions, weaker than her fellow warriors but due to her amazing ability was the best there was. But then there is the situation in "Marked for Death" in which Teresa is more than a match for Priscilla despite her inability to use her sensing. This is the experience or "workout" that Teresa has undergone ever since becoming a warrior.
Clare has the ability but for much of the series would still have gotten her butt handed to her on a plate by most any other warrior due to her lack of skill and experience in battle.

Each Claymore has limitless potential, but it isn't something that many of them know about and in many cases it isn't something many of them live long enough to care about.
Clare has been referred to as a "rookie" this to me says that there is some sense of growth inherit within the Organization itself. Which I think is something that we can all agree on.

So lets compare me to Bruce Lee.
Am I on that level? Could I ever be on that level?
Yes. But it wouldn't be the exact same, because I am a different person.
So I could have learned all that Bruce Lee ever did and even more, but still lose.
He has a knack for it that I do not posses. And he has more experience than I do.

I, however, could outrun him. He can train all he wants, but so long as I keep myself fit and train as well, he will never catch me. Why? Because that is my strong point, not his. Hypothetically speaking, for all I know he was a sprinter of crazy speed too. +)

I really have no idea if I am making any kind of sense but here is one last try.

Each person comes with their own set of strengths and weaknesses.
But a person could train to the point where that weakness becomes a strength, and is better at that one thing than anything else despite the fact that it had previously been a weakness. But say another person had that the previous persons weakness as a strength and trained to be better at it everyday.
Person B would likely beat person A because it was a Strength to begin with.

Long story without sense is.
There is no maximum potential, there is only what that person is willing to achieve, and how hard they are willing to work for it.

[MalakTawus]

Strength, power, skill, style; great, now it's a semantics game. Why can't things ever be simple?
If we consider who is stronger we should consider EVERYTHING,even fighting skill.
If instead we are talking about power (yoki power to be more precise) it's a completely different thing.
It's not a semantic game,they really are VERY DIFFERENT,and even the final result could be completely different.
For example:
during the final fight between Terea and Priscilla,in that final part Prissy was using a lot more power than Teresa.......but Teresa was still the strongest,this 'cause her skill was a lot better than Prissy's.

Nevermind, this is getting nowhere fast; that's what I get for being bored and responding to this topic . Time for something new
Agree.This is why i told that this topic wasn't "safe" at all....... :heh:

[Verkruk]

If we consider who is stronger we should consider EVERYTHING,even fighting skill.
If instead we are talking about power (yoki power to be more precise) it's a completely different thing.
It's not a semantic game,they really are VERY DIFFERENT,and even the final result could be completely different.
For example:
during the final fight between Terea and Priscilla,in that final part Prissy was using a lot more power than Teresa.......but Teresa was still the strongest,this 'cause her skill was a lot better than Prissy's.

Because I like throwing wrenches at stuff, makes em better dodge ball players.
We don't know who was using more power between Teresa and Priscilla ;)

Priscilla was using a larger percentage of her power than Teresa, but we don't know if it was it was greater than Teresa's 10% :eyespin:

Semantics baby, oh yeah!:bash:

[An4rchy99]

:heh: can't believe you guys are at it again. I sometimes feel that even if we try to explain a situation in its simplest possible way also its not possible to agree on it.

I find that the single point mentioned by Aimless was quite valid. If we assume that Isley's plan was formulated to invade south after he met Prissy it serves his dual purpose and even if he did change his plans on attacking Riful his goal was still achieved.

power levels? naaah! not gonna jump in that! :heh: :uhoh:

[Verkruk]

:heh: can't believe you guys are at it again. I sometimes feel that even if we try to explain a situation in its simplest possible way also its not possible to agree on it.

I find that the single point mentioned by Aimless was quite valid. If we assume that Isley's plan was formulated to invade south after he met Prissy it serves his dual purpose and even if he did change his plans on attacking Riful his goal was still achieved.

power levels? naaah! not gonna jump in that! :heh: :uhoh:

Ahh comeon!
The water's fine. Little tumultuous around the edges but thats nothing to worry about. :)

[Gooral]

It occurred to me now that Yuma would get depressed once she saw Clare showing her throwing skills. In chapter 2 Clare did similar thing Yuma did and her aim was at least as good as hers.

[Bikerider]

Having now read MiB's translation of chapter 110, I have some rethinking on some things. This translation does seem to make more sense to me. LIke the Claymore rebellion is now defecting warriors. Dae seeing Miria's attack and being told it's none of his business. Priscilla saying the scent wasn't from Raki or his kin. Dee-dee saying SHE was in charge of the area of the mountain pass and not how the Org administered it.

Has me rethinking some of the ideas I have.

[Bikerider]

It occurred to me now that Yuma would get depressed once she saw Clare showing her throwing skills. In chapter 2 Clare did similar thing Yuma did and her aim was at least as good as hers.

I think Clare was Yuma's primary teacher during their time in the North. For her to know that Yuma can throw her sword so well could mean she taught the skill to her.

Yoki syncing maybe another skill Clare shared with Cynthia.

[An4rchy99]

Yoki syncing maybe another skill Clare shared with Cynthia.

I have always wondered what kind of training they did in 7 years time. Every now and then I hear someone say yoki syncro and such... but wasn't their training specifically done without any yoki usage? Such as Claire focusing on WC, Miria on NM, Helen on Extnd Drill, Deneve Dual sword, and I assumed for the rest they were constantly raising their base stats... i.e. Cynthy already had some affinity to yoki manipulation, Tabatha was already opted as an eye... and Yuma, well she needed counseling and self confidence enhancing sessions... (I mean base stat and body training :p)



-Seven Years-

So how about that? Finally, we were busted after we saved a team from getting killed by a yoma.

Actually it's been seven years. Seven long years of nothing but white snow all over the place. Not much have happened since that fateful day.

(munches apple)

Okay, let's have a little flashback.

The pills did actually work to minimize our yoki. It was a great plan of Miria. We're pretty lucky that some awakened beings are downright dumb.

After they left, we buried our comrades who lost in battle. Though we have a hard time finding whose body part is whom since most of them were decapitated if not pulverized. God, it was like looking for puzzles. Anyway, it was a bit messy but we all managed.

(swallows)

And you thought the drama ended right then and there. It actually took them a months to grieve and forget about everything. And every time Clare cries over Jean and Flora, Deneve kicks her on the face for being so emo. If I know, I heard Deneve mumbled Undine's name when she sleeps. . .

Believe me, I've tried almost everything to lighten them up. I even brought up my bar jokes that made Deneve laugh when we first met. . . which by the way she told me not to tell anyone. But none of them seemed to make her laugh.

I almost gave up when Miria stood up and said. "Let's change our uniforms and start anew!"

I said, "Wow, that's great Miria, what kind of uniform do you have in mind?"

"Leather."

D:

I have a feeling that she took the fashion statement from the belt straps on Clare's right arm.

We may be good in swords but we don't know how to sew.

Seven years.

Yes, seven years.

We did nothing but our uniforms.

One year for each.

God, what a waste of time.

(sigh)

and again.

Credits go to the author (dilang-anghel ). I thought this was fun to share here ;)
Link for the whole fanfic: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3733357/3/What_the_hell

[su5so]

Malak, Isley barely got a few scraps; we know from the AE's just how hard he can push himself, fighting even when he's on his last legs (litterally); he barely put up any of the effort he did in his final fight as he did against Luciella, not to mention it was Luciella who ran away. They were both at full power, no excuse at that front.

Isley didn't follow Luciella because he knew Riful would show up, and he wanted to pull off his deception. He transformed back on his own free-will to feign weakness and draw Riful out, not because he was weak and depleted like Luciella was; again, we know from the AE's what his borderline is and how far he can and will push himself in potentially-fatal situations; his fight with Luciella was no where near one.

It's not speculation, nor does style have anything to do with it; if we see one defeating the other, it doesn't get much more plainer then that; circumstance has nothing to do with it because, again, it's not like one was handicapped in anyway; it was a fair one-on-one fight in every regard. Luciella running away like a scared kitty just shows who was the superior one. You can argue that Alicia's scythes are effective because Riful's strips are so thin, but it's an overstated advantage because her scythes can cut through just about anything anyway; Riful's strips are super-strong, blocking Alicia's sword; they just look thin and tender, which means Alicia's scythes would have to have been stronger in order to cut through so easily; more to the point, Riful wasn't able to keep up with Alicia at all and attack until she slowed down due to Beth; a simple indicator of who was really superior.

We know Isley is stronger then Luciella and we know Alicia is stronger then Riful...since we don't know how the fights would go if everything was vice-versa, is how I can my outlook on the subject.

Easley and Luciel combat, lengthened greatly. So the fight was balanced.
It is true that Easley did not receive much damage, but lost a part of her left arm and his lance arm was slightly damaged. ( Look you well image).
And Luciella only lost her tails, the rest of his body was intact.
I mean Luciel not received much more harm than Easley, only ended her yoki before.

Therefore their levels were similar, but Easley was a little better, "just a little."

[MalakTawus]

It occurred to me now that Yuma would get depressed once she saw Clare showing her throwing skills. In chapter 2 Clare did similar thing Yuma did and her aim was at least as good as hers.
LOL,so true!
I think Claire didn't use this technique anymore so that Yuma wouldn't feel heart-broken,lol.

[Gooral]

When An4rchy99 quoted the fanfic it made me think about the environment the ghosts were in. It was always cold and snowy so what did they eat? Surely there must have been plenty of things to eat since in Pieta there were people who needed much more food than them (I'm assuming they weren't eating Deneve). So they were probably hunting (maybe that's how Yuma learned how to throw a sword). Their training in such climate would be much more difficult. Windy, cold, snowy and slippery - they've had to train under such harsh conditions. The air resistance and thick layer of snow would make walking much more difficult. That was probably one of the reasons Miria managed to increase her basic speed so much. In a way it was similar to Goku's and Kuririn's training where they've had weights on them. I also wouldn't be surprised if they've had snowball fights. For example, they were probably throwing at Miria (and at first it wasn't a problem to hit her) and helped her improve her skills. Probably made her cry at first ;P. With Clare it could be the same thing. She could have tried to cut a snowball thrown at her in half with her first version of WC. Helen could have improved her skills by drilling holes in the ice or making ice-creams ;). Deneve by building gigantic igloos (and moving humongous blocks of ice). They probably played hide and seek at first allowing Tabatha to become a better sensor. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if they were training Miyagi style (Karate Kid) and polished icy surfaces in a circling manner so that they could see their reflection in it. Or they've built armies of snowmen and destroyed them in several ways.

Yeah, I know it's gibberish but maybe it will trigger a response. After the heated battle it became all quiet all of a sudden.

[Verkruk]

When An4rchy99 quoted the fanfic it made me think about the environment the ghosts were in. It was always cold and snowy so what did they eat? Surely there must have been plenty of things to eat since in Pieta there were people who needed much more food than them (I'm assuming they weren't eating Deneve). So they were probably hunting (maybe that's how Yuma learned how to throw a sword). Their training in such climate would be much more difficult. Windy, cold, snowy and slippery - they've had to train under such harsh conditions. The air resistance and thick layer of snow would make walking much more difficult. That was probably one of the reasons Miria managed to increase her basic speed so much. In a way it was similar to Goku's and Kuririn's training where they've had weights on them. I also wouldn't be surprised if they've had snowball fights. For example, they were probably throwing at Miria (and at first it wasn't a problem to hit her) and helped her improve her skills. Probably made her cry at first ;P. With Clare it could be the same thing. She could have tried to cut a snowball thrown at her in half with her first version of WC. Helen could have improved her skills by drilling holes in the ice or making ice-creams ;). Deneve by building gigantic igloos (and moving humongous blocks of ice). They probably played hide and seek at first allowing Tabatha to become a better sensor. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if they were training Miyagi style (Karate Kid) and polished icy surfaces in a circling manner so that they could see their reflection in it. Or they've built armies of snowmen and destroyed them in several ways.

Yeah, I know it's gibberish but maybe it will trigger a response. After the heated battle it became all quiet all of a sudden.

Thats some pretty funny stuff.
I like

[Directive]

I also wouldn't be surprised if they've had snowball fights. For example, they were probably throwing at Miria (and at first it wasn't a problem to hit her) and helped her improve her skills. .

I can just see Helen with her classic smirk quietly preparing her ammunition while Miria is busy talking to Clare. :D
"Oh Miria san, I have a question about the Organization!" Miria turns around and bam! xD

[Verkruk]

I can just see Helen with her classic smirk quietly preparing her ammunition while Miria is busy talking to Clare. :D
"Oh Miria san, I have a question about the Organization!" Miria turns around and bam! xD

Haha, so true.
And welcome to the forums!

[Ggirl]

Hay! No aguanto más, ya tiene que salir el 111, espero ver mucho de Galatea.

I cant wait anymore for number 111, Hope to see Galatea a lot.

http://http://oi54.tinypic.com/2r6k3ut.jpg

Dont say Anastasia ir prettier tha Gala, that its not truth. Never!!!!!!!

[Cephei Mordred]

I've finally read through the whole series thus far, and it intrigues me greatly.

Yeah, I thought Anastasia was interesting looking at first, but then I actually read the series and dislike her sometimes doll like appearance.

So yeah, shit's about to get even real. Dae is clearly planning to create three new claymores with Priscilla's arm...or maybe even bring back former number ones to life, supplementing their powers with the arm.

And we haven't even seen the mainland yet. What's going to happen when the current setting has to make room for the strife going on there? Are we going to see Claymore go on forever like Berserk?

Anyway, I think Miria meant well, she just might not have anticipated all the trump cards they had. She probably thought she could walk in and kill all the black dressed guys and end it all there.

So yeah, my 'interest' in the characters are 1. Priscilla, 2. Dietrich, and then Galatea is a close third. If Rafaela were still viable as a character that'd be on the list too.

[Quicksword]

New people yeah...yeah. Plus old people with new avatars...yeah..yeah.

Goes back to lurking...

[revive4563]

I wonder why Galatea is so popular among girls.

Her fangirls are everywhere truly.

Because she's dependable elder sister type? :p

edit: I'm new too. :)

[rafael1932]

I wonder why Galatea is so popular among girls.

Her fangirls are everywhere truly.

Because she's dependable elder sister type? :p

edit: I'm new too. :)

gala was pretty when had her eyes, now....

[revive4563]

gala was pretty when had her eyes, now....

I see...but I think Galatea who has X-MEN eyes is cooler than before.:D

[irvinethearcher]

Deneve is a defensive type so she doesn't loose any youki. Go back to my first post on that matter. (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=3391162#post3391162)

perhaps i should stop posting until i have some time on my hands again :heh:

[Cephei Mordred]

Probably because for the same reason any tall confident graceful girl gets girl-crushed on by girls at school, at least in anime?

For what it's worth, Galatea's character song melted my heart the most.

[Ggirl]

I wonder why Galatea is so popular among girls.

Her fangirls are everywhere truly.

Because she's dependable elder sister type? :p

edit: I'm new too. :)


I like her because....mmmm She says what its in her mind all the time. And she is a girly girl, she care about her hair, and so do I. The other claymores dont care about that stuff. And she is fun.

I wonder, what would she think if she see the manly Rachel? XD

Note: Sorry about my grammar, english is not my language. I couldnt find a good claymore forum in spanish. Anyway, I can practice my english here

[Ggirl]

Oh, I almost forgot: Anastasia 5uck5!!!!

I hate her prom queen hair. And she almost flys. What was Yagi thinking? he was drunk

[Gooral]

perhaps i should stop posting until i have some time on my hands again :heh:
Now that I've re-read 105th chapter it looks like it might not be the case. When Destroyer took Deneve's arm it sucked her youki (her youki has been reduced and earlier it's been flowing chaotically) and Deneve mentioned something about youki regeneration. So it's pretty much confirmed that defensive warriors lose youki but can regenerate it and offensive warriors can't (this changes however after they awaken).

[Bikerider]

I see yoki as a reservoir held back by a dam. The dam is the conscious ability to control. When releasing yoki, it's opening the spill way gates. Open them too much and they may not be able to close: too much yoki flow. The results are seen in awakening.

Conscious ability can be affected by Exhaustion-Fatigue, Emotional Stress, Dieing, and many other things.

[Shiek927]

Their's alot of new users lately :O :p

[Cephei Mordred]

Well, I'm new to Claymore, not new to suki.

Yeah I generally avoided the series at first but then a couple of things, such as knowledge of Priscilla, and reading the most recent chapters, enticed me to start reading it in earnest.

[Verkruk]

Now that I've re-read 105th chapter it looks like it might not be the case. When Destroyer took Deneve's arm it sucked her youki (her youki has been reduced and earlier it's been flowing chaotically) and Deneve mentioned something about youki regeneration. So it's pretty much confirmed that defensive warriors lose youki but can regenerate it and offensive warriors can't (this changes however after they awaken).

HAHA! I WIN!

I wonder why Galatea is so popular among girls.

Her fangirls are everywhere truly.

Because she's dependable elder sister type? :p

edit: I'm new too. :)

Welcome +)

I like her because....mmmm She says what its in her mind all the time. And she is a girly girl, she care about her hair, and so do I. The other claymores dont care about that stuff. And she is fun.

I wonder, what would she think if she see the manly Rachel? XD

Note: Sorry about my grammar, english is not my language. I couldnt find a good claymore forum in spanish. Anyway, I can practice my english here

Lol, that would be a great section read, Galatea meeting Rachel.
And welcome to the forums, it seems that many here don't speak English as their first language, so don't worry about it.

Well, I'm new to Claymore, not new to suki.

Yeah I generally avoided the series at first but then a couple of things, such as knowledge of Priscilla, and reading the most recent chapters, enticed me to start reading it in earnest.

And welcome to you too!

[Gooral]

HAHA! I WIN!
Me too, even though partially :P. From the start I was saying that youki is lost in certain circumstances and there were pretty obvious clues for that. Malak and Falcor are losers here ;].

And now we can go back to playing in a sandpit, like all 5-year old kids do Verkruk.

[Verkruk]

Me too, even though partially :P. From the start I was saying that youki is lost in certain circumstances and there were pretty obvious clues for that. Malak and Falcor are losers here ;].

And now we can go back to playing in a sandpit, like all 5-year old kids do Verkruk.

Ooo, ouch ;)

[MalakTawus]

Me too, even though partially :P. From the start I was saying that youki is lost in certain circumstances and there were pretty obvious clues for that. Malak and Falcor are losers here ;].
Just because you find proof that defensive warriors can regen their yoki (something that i have said FROM THE BEGINNING),it doesn't mean that offensive warriors can't.All that Deneve said was that she needed time to regen yoki, it's NEVER said in the manga that only defensive warriors can do it,so stop distorting things in your favour,find me a point in the manga where is said that offensive warrior CAN'T regen yoki with time and i'll admit that i was wrong.
LOL,it's really ridicolous how you use what Deneve said to conclude that offensive warrior can't regen yoki,if that's your proof it's really pathetic,can't you even see that there isn't even a cause-effect connection between the two concepts?
If here there's a loser it's you that can't even apply logic properly to a discussion and that to attack what others say often the best thing you can do is distort their words.

[irvinethearcher]

After i watched my chapter 92 on youtube again, i have found something:
Rafaella said that clare would find what she needs in her(rafaella's) memories. I think rafaella meant she needs her memories to avoid the mistake she was going to make.
I therefore don't think that clare's mistake was not considering jeans mental block.
So i conclude that clare's mistake is something else not shown yet in the manga.
What do you think? Something about theresa :bow:?

[MalakTawus]

@irvinethearcher

Well,don't you think that Raph's memory could help her to understand Jean's mental block?
But it's also true that could be something else,tbh i'm REALLY curious to find out.

[Gooral]

@Malak
Oh Malak. You're such a sore loser :D.

Deneve lost her limb and lost her youki. From the start I was saying that when offensive warrior loses a limb he loses youki. And offensive warriors "are not made this way". It fits perfectly with what I said. Since you have problems to even conclude this yourself it's pointless to discuss this topic with you. And I don't remember you've said they could regenerate youki, you said they didn't lose it and could regenerate flesh.

[Shiek927]

I therefore don't think that clare's mistake was not considering jeans mental block.
So i conclude that clare's mistake is something else not shown yet in the manga.

Well, yeah, that's logical enough; though I wouldn't call it 'Jean's mental block"; we don't know the full reasons why Claire was unable to transform, and neither does Deneve for that matter; though she has been playing Sherlock lately.

It's possible though that this blocking was also part of Rafaela though; time will tell. Inside this blob though, I feel we will be getting alot of answers about everything. I doubt Claire and Priscilla could physically fight in their even if they wanted too; physically after all, they are both immobile.

[FormerAbyssalone]

Well, yeah, that's logical enough; though I wouldn't call it 'Jean's mental block"; we don't know the full reasons why Claire was unable to transform, and neither does Deneve for that matter; though she has been playing Sherlock lately.

It's possible though that this blocking was also part of Rafaela though; time will tell. Inside this blob though, I feel we will be getting alot of answers about everything. I doubt Claire and Priscilla could physically fight in their even if they wanted too; physically after all, they are both immobile.

Well they may not be able 2 fight it out physically, but they could mentally. Clare and Priss are fused inside the blob, so they could be connected mentally.:)

[MichaelAngelo]

Sure they are connected mentally because we see a fusion, a merging of two different entities. We are only left to hypothesizing, but sooner or later Prissy will be able to get out of that 'containment'.

[MalakTawus]

@Malak
Oh Malak. You're such a sore loser :D.

Deneve lost her limb and lost her youki. From the start I was saying that when offensive warrior loses a limb he loses youki. And offensive warriors "are not made this way". It fits perfectly with what I said. Since you have problems to even conclude this yourself it's pointless to discuss this topic with you.
Gooral,it seems you really have a problem to understand.
There is no problem about this point with my "core theory".
When warriors lose a limb at best they lose the yokui that was infused in that limb at that moment,but since in my theory the core PRODUCE yoki,that loss it's only a temporary loss,and not a permanent one like you said.
In my theory even normal warriors consume yoki while fighting,so even if they lose a limb,when the battle is finished,with enough time the core will produce again the yoki to the maximum,and this is true FOR ALL THE WARRIORS,so even if offensive warriors lose a limb, they don't lose their yoki 4ever.

And I don't remember you've said they could regenerate youki, you said they didn't lose it and could regenerate flesh.

Oh,really???????????Than what is this???

My idea is that the body draws the yoki from the core,so obviously if a limb is missing the body will draw less yoki from the core, but it's not that the warrior has really lost the yoki,since the yoki is produced by the core.
If that warrior will get another arm,that new arm will draw again the yoki from the core,and if that new arm is a lot stronger than the others,it will draw a lot more yoki compared to the other limbs....

Can you understand the meaning of "YOKI IS PRODUCED BY THE CORE"?????

And in case you say that it wasn't clear i also added:

Afterall yoki is something that is consumed while fighting,and when the warriors rest the core recreates the consumed yoki till normal level,no?

NOW: Am i the one that never talked about yoki regen,or LIKE ALWAYS it was you that distorted my words???????

So for the last time,in my theory:
Core produces yoki,ALL warriors have the core,if a warrior lose a limb she only lose the yoki infused in it TEMPORARILY, 'cause with time and rest the core will re-produce the yoki back to normal level.

As you can see my theory has absolute no problem even if Deneve said that she needed time to regen her yoki,ON THE CONTRARY it's perfectly coherent with my theory,so the next time before calling others sore losers,try to understand what they are REALLY saying,instead of distorting their ideas in your own mind!!!

I'm a sore loser?Don't make me laught!!!It's easy to distort what one says and than say that he is wrong,everyone is able to do that,so don't be so proud of yourself.
If here there is a loser it's you that aren't capable of discussing ideas that are different from yours whitout completely distorting the real meaning (like when you said that imo all the warriors could become strong indefinitely if they trained,lol.)

[Shiek927]

Well they may not be able 2 fight it out physically, but they could mentally. Clare and Priss are fused inside the blob, so they could be connected mentally.:)

Which means, odds are, they will see into each other's lives like no one else before.

There is a possibility that it will be like what Rafaela said; that if one side kills the other, that one will die, physically, as well...but then again, if they really are connected, it would be the same as killing yourself.

And since Claire apparently cannot leave without letting out Priscilla as well....I think there is a very high possibility that the two will come out of the blob, less than enemies.

The whole situation feels like being handcuffed in a room by yourself with your worst enemy, and neither one is allowed to leave until there is a compromise.

[revive4563]

I like her because....mmmm She says what its in her mind all the time. And she is a girly girl, she care about her hair, and so do I. The other claymores dont care about that stuff. And she is fun.

I wonder, what would she think if she see the manly Rachel? XD

Note: Sorry about my grammar, english is not my language. I couldnt find a good claymore forum in spanish. Anyway, I can practice my english here

Don't worry, I'm not native English speaker and leatning English too. :p
OK. you like Galatea and hate Anastasia in spite of "winged" Anastasia is a girly girl too...
This means, love is not a logic, isn't it?:D


Welcome +)


Thx. :p

Well, yeah, that's logical enough; though I wouldn't call it 'Jean's mental block"; we don't know the full reasons why Claire was unable to transform, and neither does Deneve for that matter; though she has been playing Sherlock lately.

It's possible though that this blocking was also part of Rafaela though; time will tell. Inside this blob though, I feel we will be getting alot of answers about everything. I doubt Claire and Priscilla could physically fight in their even if they wanted too; physically after all, they are both immobile.

Volume 18 of English version is not released yet? The reason Clair's "awakening" was blocked is the mind problem of Clair's self. At least that is a Deneve's analysis. Deneve called it "Jean's wedge".

[Shiek927]

Volume 18 of English version is not released yet? The reason Clair's "awakening" was blocked is the mind problem of Clair's self. At least that is a Deneve's analysis. Deneve called it "Jean's wedge".

And since when did Deneve know more about Claire then us?

It's a theory at best, that's it.

[Verkruk]

And since when did Deneve know more about Claire then us?

It's a theory at best, that's it.

I'm going to say since she has 7 years on us. +)

[irvinethearcher]

@irvinethearcher

Well,don't you think that Raph's memory could help her to understand Jean's mental block?
But it's also true that could be something else,tbh i'm REALLY curious to find out.
How could rafaella's memory be helpful here? I mean they are helpful but not necessary, i would say.
I think it must be something special, something clare explicitly needs rafaella's memories for. Something about the soul link, something about what happened when rafaella tried to bring her sister back. I understood it that way that she somehow carried believed to carry luciellas soul around all those years and killed the awakened luciella to infuse her sisters soul into the dead body and to bring her back.
Perhaps it is something related to theresa...
I only think that the last word about this is not already spoken.

[Shiek927]

Their are all kinds of possibilities; it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Rafaela secretly had this teacher-student relationship with Teresa, and there meeting wasn't the first and last; so Claire could very well have all kinds of new memories about her.

[MalakTawus]

How could rafaella's memory be helpful here? I mean they are helpful but not necessary, i would say.
Well,i'd say that Raph is the claymore that probably knows suffering more than anyone else,afterall i doubt someone has suffered in silence as many years as her.
And not only that,she also feels responsable for Luciela's awakening, and this is quite similar to how Claire feels for Jean's death.
What i mean is that Raph lived A LOT,so i'm sure that Claire could understand a lot of things about herself now that she has Raph's memories.
I think that Raph's message to Claire is Raph's life itself....but maybe i'm wrong and it's something more concrete (like some memory about Teresa,or new info about soul link,or some secret about Claire's body that Claire herself still doesn't know.......there are a lot of possibilities)

[rafael1932]

Clare can not control the destroyer because she want, something inside have change in order that to happen. The memories should answer that after. She has rafa memories and that allows her to control it. also her memories of synchronizing yoki must help too ( a lot I mean). Rafa is considered a failed, a loser, so why she would help Teresa in first place?. Teresa must have training with her class- Irene- and, when she was seen as special, she was put aside, but someone that messed big time like rafa – I simple don’t see the org thinking that way…
Rafa must have a lot of memories, for clare just foreseen 1 with Teresa in a middle of a battle like pris must be impossible

edit:Also if Teresa had an relationship with rafa, she would be not sad behind that faked smile, she would be much more social and happy. After all she would have a friend.

[Verkruk]

I apologize in advance if this has already been touched on at some point in the past.
But I was recently re-watching/reading the series and am currently at the Pieta part of the story when it occurred to me, so here I am. +)

Once the dust had settled the Organization has lost 33 Warriors.
Ophelia, Jeans three comrades in the Witches Maw arc, the first four sent north, the 24 Warriors at Pieta, and then Galatea. 33.

That leaves the Org with 14 Warriors...

1 and 2 Alicia and Beth
5 Rapheala
10 Raftela

Are the only top ten and only named Warriors left that we currently are aware of...
And #10 doesn't really count anyways, at least I don't think she is actively employed against the yoma since it sounds like she never leaves the HQ.
So 13 Warriors.

If that isn't devastation, I really don't know what is.

But what I am really trying to get at is the current strength of the Organization.
An Organization that lost all but four of the top ten. And three of the four are secret weapons, and Rahpeala doesn't use any Yoki and no-one really seems to know much about her or her abilities.

So what do the new recruits have to measure themselves against?
And just how powerful are they, after all its not like they really had to compete to get their ranks seeing as 33 Warriors were killed off period of time that may have been as short as four months, maybe even less.

So with that in mind, and the seven years of training that the Ghosts have gone through, the addition of knew information via Tracker D, and that they are minus the two strongest. Just what do you think their chances are against the Org?

And it appears that they may just pick up yet some more recruits, or lose someone else, with the arrival of Prom Queen Anastasia.

[Cephei Mordred]

Well, I think maybe the difference between Galatea and Anastasia is, Galatea might be 'girly-girl,' but within believable limits. I honestly don't like girly-girlness but I will admit that Galatea won my heart and stole the show from the first, when she was listening in on Miria's 'the organization be trippin, yo' speech.

But Anastasia? When I saw her, I was like "Okay, now Yagi is trying too hard."

Also, there seems to be something 'off' about her, perhaps it's her face, at times it's doll-like to the point of Uncanny Valley.

That's why I dislike Anastasia.

[rafael1932]

I apologize in advance if this has already been touched on at some point in the past.
But I was recently re-watching/reading the series and am currently at the Pieta part of the story when it occurred to me, so here I am. +)

Once the dust had settled the Organization has lost 33 Warriors.
Ophelia, Jeans three comrades in the Witches Maw arc, the first four sent north, the 24 Warriors at Pieta, and then Galatea. 33.

That leaves the Org with 14 Warriors...

1 and 2 Alicia and Beth
5 Rapheala
10 Raftela

Are the only top ten and only named Warriors left that we currently are aware of...
And #10 doesn't really count anyways, at least I don't think she is actively employed against the yoma since it sounds like she never leaves the HQ.
So 13 Warriors.

If that isn't devastation, I really don't know what is.

But what I am really trying to get at is the current strength of the Organization.
An Organization that lost all but four of the top ten. And three of the four are secret weapons, and Rahpeala doesn't use any Yoki and no-one really seems to know much about her or her abilities.

So what do the new recruits have to measure themselves against?
And just how powerful are they, after all its not like they really had to compete to get their ranks seeing as 33 Warriors were killed off period of time that may have been as short as four months, maybe even less.

So with that in mind, and the seven years of training that the Ghosts have gone through, the addition of knew information via Tracker D, and that they are minus the two strongest. Just what do you think their chances are against the Org?

And it appears that they may just pick up yet some more recruits, or lose someone else, with the arrival of Prom Queen Anastasia.

the ghosts are trying to get not notice and grab miria that why they avoid enconters. dont think that they want to pick a fight or stab and grab ( and run). damn why miria didnt go *ninja*, assassinate the black guys and run? stupid yagi

[irvinethearcher]

Their are all kinds of possibilities; it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Rafaela secretly had this teacher-student relationship with Teresa, and there meeting wasn't the first and last; so Claire could very well have all kinds of new memories about her.

That's one of the most solid speculations i think. It simply makes sense in several ways.
1. theresa wouldn't have stopped her little escapes suddenly after she met rafaella for the first time. So if their first meeting aroused rafaella's interest she simply had to wait until theresa ran away again. And rafaella had to much time on her hand anyway.

2. a teacher student relationship between rafaella and theresa would explain why theresa distrusted the org that much. I mean rafaella wasn't stupid. She just wanted to get her sister back. IMO she knew that the org was not what it seemed to be and that something was wrong, she just couldn't point her finger on it and she probably did not want to investigate any further because the knowledge would interfere with her work.

[su5so]

I still do not understand why Raphaela spent his memories Clare to help her ...
I mean Raphaela barely knew to Clare, and was only on one occasion when she tracked to Clare (she was an alleged deserter at that time for the organitation) to send to a suicide mission.

So now I do not understand why she wanted to help Clare because for Raphaela, Clare is a claymore like any other. Not great friend of all life. :confused:

[irvinethearcher]

I still do not understand why Raphaela spent his memories Clare to help her ...
I mean Raphaela barely knew to Clare, and was only on one occasion when she tracked to Clare (she was an alleged deserter at that time for the organitation) to send to a suicide mission.

So now I do not understand why she wanted to help Clare because for Raphaela, Clare is a claymore like any other. Not great friend of all life. :confused:

and despite that the merged sisters reacted to clare's surface scan but ignored renee's in depth scan. IMO clare was led to the sisters, something had driven her to the west and to riful's lair from the begining and in a way rafaella was waiting for her to arrive.
Sounds crazy i know but how can it make sense otherwise.
the only connection between rafaella and clare except the meeting with rubel and jean in the woods is theresa.

[Cephei Mordred]

I think the reason can be summed up in one simple sentence:

Clare is a shonen hero.

[MalakTawus]

It's also possible that there is someone inside the org that knows Claire's real potential and that is trying to hide it.
Maybe Rubel and Raph already knew that Claire would have become uber-strong one day.

But for now we don't even know if it's Claire that went to the destroyer or if it was the destroyer to "call" Claire, so will probably know the truth only when Yagi will reveal some of Raph's memories.

[irvinethearcher]

I think the reason can be summed up in one simple sentence:

Clare is a shonen hero.

Aren't we confusing claymore with bleach?

[Cephei Mordred]

Bleach, Naruto, Gundam, or any series revolving around a de jure or de facto 'chosen one,' take your pick.

[su5so]

I think the reason can be summed up in one simple sentence:

Clare is a shonen hero.

Bleach, Naruto, Gundam, or any series revolving around a de jure or de facto 'chosen one,' take your pick.


I guess you are right, when it comes to the protagonist, anything is possible ...

[rafael1932]

irvinethearcher

Raphaela is not that smart, if she knew the org secret she would have destroyed the org, she would go berserk and then, after that, kill her sister. Don’t cofound yourself calm and cool head with intelligence.
Again, Teresa was very loony and that can be only achievement if she had no friends at all. Compare with Irene and her friends, they work alone but, because they hunt awakened together they are more friendly with each other. They may seem fight for reach a higher digit but is only their way to say how its going? Everything ok?.

su5so
«I guess you are right, when it comes to the protagonist, anything is possible ..»
I think its called protagonist armor, still there are major improvements if we compare with bleach in terms of story and improvement of secondarys actors ( Helen combo rocks); I really hope that clare sleep a lot to allow others get developed

edit: development also ocurs in personality too

[su5so]

I think its called protagonist armor, still there are major improvements if we compare with bleach in terms of story and improvement of secondarys actors ( Helen combo rocks); I really hope that clare sleep a lot to allow others get developed

edit: development also ocurs in personality too

Exactly, I never said that his story was bad. I said that in all stories, the protagonist can do it all, but in Claymore, this is achieved with style. It's obviously much better than Bleach.
I also hope the development of other characters apart from clare.

[rafael1932]

Exactly, I never said that his story was bad. I said that in all stories, the protagonist can do it all, but in Claymore, this is achieved with style. It's obviously much better than Bleach.
I also hope the development of other characters apart from clare.

Besides this one, i also liked Elfen Lied story.
By the way this has the most kickass power. The men are staring at nothing and see others geting killed in the most painful way. By the way that number 10 mindfuck is pretty damn good too – I played as necro in Diablo 2

[Shiek927]

.....I can see we're in desperate need for a new topic :heh:

[Bikerider]

Ya know.. Tabby might be feeling a bit selfconscious around this chapter. After all.. She is the only one in a skirt now. The other two in skirts are in some serious doo-doo.. if they ain't dead. Doesn't look good for the Ghost in the skirt. She'd better get some pants.

[Bikerider]

OH MY !!! This is why Miria lost. SHe wasn't wearing her Ghost outfit at the time. The mibs weren't drooling enough and the younger warriors weren't fawning at her uber sexiness.... That's it. That's why she lost.

[Verkruk]

OH MY !!! This is why Miria lost. SHe wasn't wearing her Ghost outfit at the time. The mibs weren't drooling enough and the younger warriors weren't fawning at her uber sexiness.... That's it. That's why she lost.

How on earth did we not see it before now!?

[rafael1932]

.....I can see we're in desperate need for a new topic :heh:

Is miria dead or not is topic for how many months? And about org strength facing the new ghosts? And, by the way, I still can sense that we wont know if miria is dead or not in the next month, like I said before. Is funny or what? If miria is dead then we spent all this time thinking otherwise and then another guy will say – hey, what?, you serious? I thought I saw miria falls in the last page…

[Bikerider]

New Topic:
Ghosts' skirt lengths. Is it short enough ? long enough ? Is that slit high enough ? low enough.? Are the ones wearing pants more modest, even though they are skin tight ? Is Cynthia not wearing a skirt because she has no modesty ? Doesn't like pants or skirts. ? INQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW !!

And why does their clothing seem to regenerate ? Is it part of them in some awakened being sort of way ?

[Verkruk]

New Topic:
Ghosts' skirt lengths. Is it short enough ? long enough ? Is that slit high enough ? low enough.? Are the ones wearing pants more modest, even though they are skin tight ? Is Cynthia not wearing a skirt because she has no modesty ? Doesn't like pants or skirts. ? INQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW !!

And why does their clothing seem to regenerate ? Is it part of them in some awakened being sort of way ?

I wanna know how the frick it protects them from... well... anything now that I think about it. :twitch: :heh: :eyespin:

[rafael1932]

New Topic:
Ghosts' skirt lengths. Is it short enough ? long enough ? Is that slit high enough ? low enough.? Are the ones wearing pants more modest, even though they are skin tight ? Is Cynthia not wearing a skirt because she has no modesty ? Doesn't like pants or skirts. ? INQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW !!

And why does their clothing seem to regenerate ? Is it part of them in some awakened being sort of way ?

http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/3758/avatarcpiaeparaapagar.jpg


dahhh....yuma regenarates it * facepalm*

[Cephei Mordred]

1. They are less needing of actual protection, because they regenerate and all.

2. Cynthia's outfit reminds me more of a japanese style PE outfit.

[Verkruk]

1. They are less needing of actual protection, because they regenerate and all.

It's the thought of having my bones, joints, organs and other points on my body continually crushed, pierced, separated, pulverized, ground, ripped off, cut off, slashed etc. etc.

Regen is expensive and tiring, why not avoid it as much as possible?

Lol, reminds me of an Adult Swim commercial.
A viewer emails Adult Swim and asks why it is that no matter how hard the wind blows we never get an upskirt of Kagome?

They responded, behold the power of the TV-14 rating!

Made me laugh +)

[Bikerider]

Their outfits are perfect for fighting male ABs too... make them drool. make them beg. then slice them up. Yeah... Behold the power of short slit skirts.

[Cephei Mordred]

Except, this series actually manages to make pretty women somehow asexual or even ugly.

For instance...Riful, despite looking clean, pure, and sweet, you get a feeling of uncleanness just looking at her.

And Agata, despite being the most 'sexual' person in Claymore, it's made squicky not only by what she ends up doing to her victims, but the fact that it looks like she's laying on a bed of entrails.