View Full Version : Gilgamesh Discussion
PocariSweat
2003-11-04, 01:57
Don't know if it's just me, but I just watched Gilgamesh episode 5 and it really looks like the artwork and animation may be getting worse - even though the story's getting interesting!
I know many people weren't too fond of the style even to begin with, but I'm not really talking about that (ok, I'll admit to being a little freaked by the way when any character shows surprise, they give them an expression you usually only see on sex dolls :heh: ). However, this episode the animation seemed extra rough and the motion kind of unnatural - with people sometimes looking disproportionately drawn or distorted. Could this be a case of the studio hurting for funds by any chance?
Too bad, because the story *is* really beginning to become interesting. I can usually overlook a low budget when the story's good, but this is getting to the point where it's kind of distracting.
I was wondering how many people are following this series. I usually give a show 5 eps to get me interested enough to go further and Gilgamesh didn't do it. Having some mysteries to figure out is fine but so far they haven't really explained the motivations behind either of the 2 groups.
I didn't really notice any difference in the style of the animation. Course most of the time the scenes are too dark to tell anyway.
Oh well I don't have to worry bout that anymore. This show would have to get a lot better to get me to watch it again.
It's uglier now compared to the first episode?! My gawd, that must be really, realy bad animation then...might be as bad as...Dear Boys! :eek:
whatever123
2003-11-04, 05:47
well i dont know probably i have a different taste than other ppl but i still find this series very interesting & i havent noticed that much of a change in the animation
The story line seems OK IMO, but the artwork..... I just can't get used to the way they draw mouths and hair, nor to the overall style of drawing. Another thing that bothered me was the animation, at some points, it looked like I was watching a slideshow instead of an animation. :( I still find the story interesting enough to keep me watching though. But for how long?
Anlushac11
2003-11-04, 08:40
Its funny that you mention that because I was going to post the same question.
It does seem that the artwork is not as wel done the last two episodes.
I keep telling myself I'll give it one more chance.
I find the story interesting enough to keep watching it but I have a hard time getting excited about it like I do Avenger and Shingetsutan Tsukihime.
Yes, I noticed it got even worse in the last 2 episodes, abusing too much of the white color sometimes. I'm just watching it to see how the story develops, as it seems pretty interesting so far. Too bad the animation doesn't help much.
@ [Titan]: May I ask what anime is that sig picture from? (or where did you get it). It looks really good :)
Breogan: As far as I know, it's CG art from an H game, dunno from what game unfortunately ^^"
ontopic: I also noted that when a character is in the distance, they still try to give it a lot of detail, resulting in a whole bunch of black lines. Also, I had to switch my CRT from 40% brightness to 80% in order to see what's going on...
I don't think it could unless, they turn to to orcs, trolls or the like.
NenMaster
2003-11-04, 12:31
i like the art work, you will probally see more animes with diffrent art work than the usual stuff.
KidGusto
2003-11-05, 01:14
I heard that in newer animes now they are rotating different art teams. I heard they did it in Naruto and a couple of others. Usually there good enough to make it look the same but yah episodes 1 and 2 are way cleaner than the rest. I'm guessing there probably rotating different artist, unfortunatly it doesnt seem to be helping the anime much, and yes i cant wait for a plot.
I like the story pretty well so far, enough to overlook the style. I did find some things really distracting in episode 5 though (aside from the normal weirdness of these people plastic hair and weird mouths). Weird things had detail, while sometimes figures would have very little, I found this especially noticable whenever someones feet were shown. The characters generally seem to move pretty stiffly, but it did seem worse this episode.
Zoya
I made it through 4 episodes before giving up on this series and thats because I can no longer stand the animation quality of this series. I thought the story was getting good too but every time a good part comes up the animation totally ruins the mood for me.
NenMaster
2003-11-05, 11:35
mouths are only weird caus they have lips
hmm i just finished teh 1st epi.. did download all 5. but the drawings seem pretty good here.. just that they do seem deteriorated at some scenes..
I gave up on it after the second episode, such a shame. I thought that its gonna be a good series but then again..... :sad:
chhayalak
2003-11-06, 00:51
Don't know if it's just me, but I just watched Gilgamesh episode 5 and it really looks like the artwork and animation may be getting worse - even though the story's getting interesting!
I know many people weren't too fond of the style even to begin with, but I'm not really talking about that (ok, I'll admit to being a little freaked by the way when any character shows surprise, they give them an expression you usually only see on sex dolls :heh: ). However, this episode the animation seemed extra rough and the motion kind of unnatural - with people sometimes looking disproportionately drawn or distorted. Could this be a case of the studio hurting for funds by any chance?
Too bad, because the story *is* really beginning to become interesting. I can usually overlook a low budget when the story's good, but this is getting to the point where it's kind of distracting.
I don't see where you are coming man. ANime motion kind of unnatural??? anime characters drawn disproportionately?? what get out:).. Isn't that what anime is all about, seriously!
I like the animation of Gilgamesh.. i like everything, the lips, etc... It's one of my fav animes this season, next to FLA, and PMK!:)
NenMaster
2003-11-06, 01:00
people just dont like change.
I think I'll stop wasting my time with it. I'm not bothered by how it looks, but it's too slow for me like rahxephon was. just dragging out until the final few eps. I also happen to hate music. Oh btw the preview of eps 4 made it sound like there was sex but there wasn't :) I think it would have been better if there was :)
I am SOOO addicted to this series...I just cant wait for episode 9. I think the majority of people are missing out on this gem because they are turned off by the animation. My only fault with it is that there are moments where you can tell that corners were cut. other than that...the style, story, characters, music.....Great!
Anybody else agree with me?
I'm currently awaiting ep9 also, although the animation is kinda weird it makes up for its story.
I have been watching this anime as well. I can't say that i am addicted, but i really do like this show. Funny how this show and Planetes are not watched very much. People i guess like their same old shows. I do agree that the animation could be of a higher quality, on the otherhand i love the character designs, it reminds me of Blood the Last Vampire.
linuxguru
2003-12-08, 19:39
Same here. I think this show is best described as Japanese Gothic; "characterized by gloom and mystery and the grotesque."
It's not surprising it hasn't found a large audience. These kind of shows have never done well over here (which probably dooms any R1 release) and the character designs take a bit of getting used to. However, they fit the atmosphere of the show perfectly along with the splendid acting and music.
My thanks to the fansubbers for making this show available.
quiet insanity
2003-12-08, 23:13
I think the story is great. Always seems to keep it interesting. But I gotta say, the animation is terrible.
whatever123
2003-12-09, 03:02
i like this show even though i was surprised when i heard the name gilgamesh i thought that it would be some mythology but i enjoyed the show nice story very dark and the characters fit in great in the story
as everyone above seems to say the animation is odd, i dont find it terribly bad personally. i also think it fits the story in a way.
Hao Asakura
2003-12-09, 10:14
Not sure whether I sure post a comment here or not, since I don't really like this series but it doesn't meant I'm going to start a flame here :heh:
To be honest, whenever I watched any Gilgamesh episodes I almost fell asleep everytime halfway the movie. It seems like the story doesn't go anywhere and the movie is always dark which makes it really hard to watch. Dark story don't always have to be shown in dark background.
I just hope it gonna get better with ep 9 and so on. Otherwise, i'll discontinue getting this series.
A lot of people did try to watch this series when it came out. But after seeing a few episodes, I guess most of them dropped it. I saw 3 episodes and the show just didn't fascinate me. I like dark animes but this could have been better like the way Tsukihime is. Hao is right about falling asleep when he's watching this show coz it happened to me. I think the character design is original and didn't mind them at all.
HOLY CRAP!!!! Episode 9 was GREAT!!!! Each episode is better than the last- Im really curious to know how long this series is going to be. This episode really opened things up and introduced some new characters- sorry tsukihime- this one takes the award for my favorite of the season!!!
NenMaster
2003-12-11, 11:01
i like this anime, i like how the animation is diffrent and the story is good, still need to watch ep 9 :P
Sanjiyan
2003-12-12, 19:20
Not an addict but still like to watch it. The first 3 episodes, I was having a hardtime staying awake and find the animation difficult to watch but after that, it just makes me more curious and I also got used to the animation style. Also I begin to like the Opening song after hearing it for the 8th times. Unfortunately can't find any of its songs yet. :-(
tsurumaru
2003-12-14, 17:23
Was is just me or was episode nine was actually quite good! I'm glad they got rid of the sister (for the moment at least) as it was kinda a bit too angsty and I felt the earlier episodes kept retreading the same elements over and over again.
I also like the way we dont know yet what the countess' true motives are and therefore what "side" she is really on in the grander scheme of things...
Mephisto03
2003-12-14, 20:59
At first I thought it was kinda wierd but kept downloading the eps anyways just to watch it, and now I need my damn gilgamesh. The sotry got alot better and so did the action I guess you can say.
ep 11 is out, we are learning more about TwinX ... this anime is really good..
lynne_huang
2003-12-22, 22:55
ep 11 is out, we are learning more about TwinX ... this anime is really good..
Agreed! although the animation style is somewhat debatable.. the storyline's really pretty good!
if im not wrong, the recurring theme we hear throughout the anime (eg. end of ep 11) is taken from the opening of the 2nd movement of Beethoven's 5th Piano Concerto. its also commonly known as the 'Emperor' Concerto. maybe that has something to do w Gilgamesh, since he was some mythological god-king i.e. emperor? i wonder if that has any hidden meaning, or do you guys think its just a random thing?
any thoughts?
Grenadier
2003-12-23, 12:17
I kept downloading Gilgamesh as it came out up to episode 6, but I never really watched it and I eventually deleted it. For some reason it just failed to grab my attention like other shows like Stellvia and Naruto did. But that's just me.
Anlushac11
2003-12-23, 12:21
I didnt like it when it first came out but decided to give it one more try, then just one more try, then next thing I knew I was hooked.
It has grown to be one of the ones I really like.
I do like Gilgamesh... Can't say I'm hooked but I do watch it every week.
The animation is what gets me. Not the style; I liked the style. It's the animation technique I'm having problem with.
I think in order to cut cost they've selected a bad outsourcing animation outfit. Usually the animation's outsourced to Korean shops but I saw that Gilgamesh is outsourced to a Chinese animation outfit. I've never seen that before so It must be done for cost saving purposes. Nothing against Chinese animators but I think the lack of experience is showing in the anime; some motions are jerky and unatural, and the awkwardness often pull you out of the story.
I think in the future these new outsourcing places will get better, but right now I think they have a lot of work to do. Seemed that Gilgamesh isn't important enough to warrent more quality work; what a shame.
For those of you who can read Kanji, the name of the outsourcing firm can be found in the credits.
I've only seen the first episode of this show, I find it to be really boring, slow, awkward and chaotic...sorry for a lack of better words, the music and the dark overtones didn't exactly appeal to me either. But I'm considering giving it a second chance after having read this forum...ah, i'm too easily persuaded these days.
Yeah the story does start very slow, but I like story driven things be it books, games, or movies. However the action has definitely picked up and the story has engagingly deep. I am really liking this show and I am really glad i stayed with it.
The animation is guhy at times but I really like the designs. Just wish better animation could go with it.
Getting to the bottom of what really happened when Twin X happened is really getting me hooked on this series even more.
How many episodes does gilgamesh have?
And is any one coming out with any new ones any time soon?
It gets rather tedious seeing the same sort of question asked over and over, and here we have another example.
On the front page of AnimeSuki (http://www.animesuki.com/), we have this message concerning Naruto
No Naruto this week!
Naruto normally airs on a Wednesday in Japan, but not on New Year's Eve. So the next episode (#65) will air on January 7.
Therefore don't expect any fansubs of it before then. The airing schedule of some other anime may also be affected.
Notice it also states "other anime may also be affected". We just had New Year, so some TV schedules are bound to be affected as will the release schedule for the fansub groups. So have patience!
As for the number of episodes, well you could have looked at the info supplied on AnimeSuki, here on the Gilgamesh (http://www.animesuki.com/series.php/247.html) torrent page, and here in the How Many Episodes: Answered here! (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=156) thread (as well as other places like AnimeNfo and AniDB). These all give the answer of ?
Plus, in the forum rules (http://forums.animesuki.com/thread.php?threadid=2296&sid=) we ask...
Do not ask for when stuff will be released
Do not ask when episodes will be released. They'll be released once the fansub group is finished with them. All your whining will do is irritate fansub group staff and make them leave the scene. And that will mean even slower releases or none at all. So just have some PATIENCE. Threads which break this rule will be deleted.
FromageTheDog
2004-02-04, 02:46
No one seems to have been talking about this one recently, but I must say, Gilgamesh is shaping up to be good-golly-Miss-Molly fabulous. It took me a while to warm up to the graphic style (disliked it initially), admittedly. Certainly one of the most interesting stories currently being told in this arena, right up there with FullMetal Alchemist (my current favorite).
So, couple questions. Not expecting any authoritative replies, of course -- just your thoughts:
- Anyone have any thought on what the heck the Blattallia [sp?] are? Clones? People? Machines?
- What about the boys (and girl) in black? Course now it's like one boy left, and he's a mess. Clearly they have something to do with Enkidu; are they like the other dynamis users (gifted) or somehow tweaked by Enkidu (note they seem to decompose or some such in contact with that bizarro skewer thing the Blattallia use). What's the point of the transformation? Is that their natural state?
- Is that boy ever gonna get better? Does it look like he's healing? Or is he messed up permanently? He seems to be getting better (he's up and about), but he's still got all that weird coloration all over him.
- What is that weird coloration?
Looking forward to hearing your various ideas on the subject. And if you're not watching this series, by all means do!
- Fromage
westsideplaya
2004-02-04, 04:08
No one seems to have been talking about this one recently, but I must say, Gilgamesh is shaping up to be good-golly-Miss-Molly fabulous. It took me a while to warm up to the graphic style (disliked it initially), admittedly. Certainly one of the most interesting stories currently being told in this arena, right up there with FullMetal Alchemist (my current favorite).
So, couple questions. Not expecting any authoritative replies, of course -- just your thoughts:
- Anyone have any thought on what the heck the Blattallia [sp?] are? Clones? People? Machines?
- What about the boys (and girl) in black? Course now it's like one boy left, and he's a mess. Clearly they have something to do with Enkidu; are they like the other dynamis users (gifted) or somehow tweaked by Enkidu (note they seem to decompose or some such in contact with that bizarro skewer thing the Blattallia use). What's the point of the transformation? Is that their natural state?
- Is that boy ever gonna get better? Does it look like he's healing? Or is he messed up permanently? He seems to be getting better (he's up and about), but he's still got all that weird coloration all over him.
- What is that weird coloration?
Looking forward to hearing your various ideas on the subject. And if you're not watching this series, by all means do!
- Fromage
I think the blattaria are humans with that special ore as a body covering. In episode 16 that guy with the glasses said Enkidu stole 12 samples of the gilgamesh so I am assuming they (gilgamesh) are those samples. They also use dynamis as there powers and the special ore which they found at the site of twin XX, nullifies their powers and renders them harmless. Their decompostiton is probably due to the ore penetrating their bodies or something. As far as the leader of the gilgamesh group, he looks them same in episode 17, and after evidently having sex with Madoka's sister I bet hes gonna feel a lot better. I agree on this being one of the better animes storywise, but that animation does get on my nerves sometimes.
FromageTheDog
2004-02-05, 21:45
I think the blattaria are humans with that special ore as a body covering. In episode 16 that guy with the glasses said Enkidu stole 12 samples of the gilgamesh so I am assuming they (gilgamesh) are those samples. They also use dynamis as there powers and the special ore which they found at the site of twin XX, nullifies their powers and renders them harmless. Their decompostiton is probably due to the ore penetrating their bodies or something. As far as the leader of the gilgamesh group, he looks them same in episode 17, and after evidently having sex with Madoka's sister I bet hes gonna feel a lot better. I agree on this being one of the better animes storywise, but that animation does get on my nerves sometimes.
playa -- thanks for your input.
You point out the Gilgamesh samples -- here's a question: what are they? I assume they're not natural born like the four countess' kids, given that they can transform, and are vulnerable to the ore, which it seems the kids are not. Cloning seems to be a big thing in this series, so a safe bet may be that they are clones, custom made beings of a sort.
As you point out in your spoiler, the implication is that they are human in some respect, though I don't know of any humans that can walk around with big chunks of their body in some decomposed state...
In any case -- they've been building up the intrigue for so long in this series that my Big Fear is that all the magical mystery weirdness gets explained away in some silly and wholly unsatisfactory fashion in the last few episodes as is the wont with this sort of thing (Evangelion, anyone?).
As for the animation -- it's definitely grown on me, and they've definitely improved dramatically since the first couple episodes.
- Fromage
Prince of Chronics
2004-02-05, 21:51
imo, the animation was fine from the beginning... it was just kinda weird at first cuz, like others, I thought Gilgamesh was a darker version of E's Otherwise (the teleporting and shit)... but straight up... I stuck with Gilgamesh... and I got to see the Blattaria take out peeps nicely! those were the best episodes so far (the more recent ones)... Gilgamesh is a great show...
but to get back on topic... I think the Blattaria are just like cyborgs or something like those human/robot dogs with lasers coming out of their mouths... imo.. the Blattaria are not techinically alive people, but rather, cyborgs... (the word "cyborgs" cracks me up all the time... lol)
I skipped reading most of what yall said because I hate spoiling a series (even with theories)- but I've been saying all along in other threads that this is THE series to be watching right now (along with Naruto)
I love everything about it- the music, the characters, the animation, the dark story- awesome
but I've been saying all along in other threads that this is THE series to be watching right now (along with Naruto)
I love everything about it- the music, the characters, the animation, the dark story- awesome
I agree but I think most ppl can't get past the unique artwork. If you can look past the artwork/animation style you will find an very interesting dark plot. I don't like the art style very much but I love the story so far, and the dark themes. I like the scientific aspects of it also.
westsideplaya
2004-02-05, 23:36
playa -- thanks for your input.
You point out the Gilgamesh samples -- here's a question: what are they? I assume they're not natural born like the four countess' kids, given that they can transform, and are vulnerable to the ore, which it seems the kids are not. Cloning seems to be a big thing in this series, so a safe bet may be that they are clones, custom made beings of a sort.
As you point out in your spoiler, the implication is that they are human in some respect, though I don't know of any humans that can walk around with big chunks of their body in some decomposed state...
In any case -- they've been building up the intrigue for so long in this series that my Big Fear is that all the magical mystery weirdness gets explained away in some silly and wholly unsatisfactory fashion in the last few episodes as is the wont with this sort of thing (Evangelion, anyone?).
As for the animation -- it's definitely grown on me, and they've definitely improved dramatically since the first couple episodes.
- Fromage
Yeah their definitely genetic altered from some sort of strange DNA (alien perhaps?). Well if he didnt have the "equipment" I doubt he would come on to the girl too and it looked like his pelvic area wasnt decomposing so he should be fine. As far as a conclusion to the series, I doubt it does some magical crap ending seeing as they used alot of physics terminology in the series when discussing...anything, especially when they were discussing the cause of twin xx and the building of that tower in the city. Hell, I had to rewatch the raws several times just to understand what they were talking about in that episode.
FromageTheDog
2004-02-06, 02:08
Yeah their definitely genetic altered from some sort of strange DNA (alien perhaps?). Well if he didnt have the "equipment" I doubt he would come on to the girl too and it looked like his pelvic area wasnt decomposing so he should be fine. As far as a conclusion to the series, I doubt it does some magical crap ending seeing as they used alot of physics terminology in the series when discussing...anything, especially when they were discussing the cause of twin xx and the building of that tower in the city. Hell, I had to rewatch the raws several times just to understand what they were talking about in that episode.
Oooh -- aliens. Hadn't thought of that one. My own guess was that they represent some next evolutionary form (the tried-and-true staple of sci-fi), of which Gilgamesh was the first. And they never quite explain what the X X site was about. Was it the tomb of Gilgamesh?
You say science, but I'd argue that gilgamesh is about as scientific as Eva was religious -- i.e. done rather loosely and only enough to further the plot. Of course, if you have a theoretical physics background and it all made sense to you, more power to you -- it was all mumbo-jumbo to me, raw or otherwise. All those big words sure do help with the whole suspension of disbelief thing, though...
There is this strong mythological (could be interpreted as religious) overtone in the first few eps where they describe X X, so I'm not entirely comfortable that there's going to be any kind of rational and neat conclusion to the series, but we'll see... I hope you're right!
- Fromage
FromageTheDog
2004-02-06, 02:15
I agree but I think most ppl can't get past the unique artwork. If you can look past the artwork/animation style you will find an very interesting dark plot. I don't like the art style very much but I love the story so far, and the dark themes. I like the scientific aspects of it also.
I'm curious -- is it just my imagination that the animation quality has improved? I was pretty disappointed early on, but the story definitely kept me coming back.
The character design, despite being identifiable as anime, is certainly quite unique (even new?) and now that the animators seem more comfortable with it, I think it works pretty well.
More than anything else, this series has a tremendous amount of atmosphere, for want of a better word.
Anyone know what other animes this studio has done?
- Fromage
tsurumaru
2004-02-06, 13:10
I've been watching Gilgamesh right the way through and have to say the storyline has improved. Also the OP and ED themes are pretty groovy too.
Here are some answers for you that I have understood so far from the series (I haven't kept my episodes and only watched them once due to a lack of disk space by having to much Anime already :heh:)
At the original site of excavation of Gilgamesh's tomb (where the strange tower that was the site of Twin X was built and ORGA the international research team was based) a large underground cavern was discovered. This cavern contained a strange ore and also a dimensional portal!
The Gilgamesh side are made out of/contain Antimatter and can "transform" themselves and use special powers by utilising this source.
Small semi-scientific aside: Antimatter is the opposite material that everything in our world is made of, Atoms contain Protons, Neutrons and Electrons, Antimatter Atoms contain Anti-Protons, Anti-Neutrons and Positrons, its like a mirror image of what we are constructed from. Anti matter and matter usually cannot exist in the same place as each other as if they come into contact with each other they destroy each other creating HUGE amounts of energy in the process. This would be an extreme bummer in our universe (as wherever antimatter/matter came into contact most things would be destroyed if not by the process but by then by the energy released by it). Fortunately our universe seems to be "missing" most of its antimatter, scientists cannot currently explain why there is not the same amount of Anti-matter in our universe as there is matter.
Anyhow back to the plot. :p
On Twin X a devastating process was unleashed at the site of Gilgameshes tomb by Madoka's father which changed the function of the Earths magnetic field in the upper atmosphere, both creating the "sheltering sky", and knocking out most modern (computer based) technology at the same time.
Since that day children with strange psychic gifts have been born ("The Devils children" - ie Madoka's allies)
Madoka was cloned from his father "Enkidu" who seems to be blessed with Dynamis along with both the "Devils children" and "Gilgamesh".
The Sheltering sky is causing some sort of change on the Earth instigated on the day of Twin X.
The Blattalia (Cyborgs - Machine Body - Human brains) have weapons which can change the Antimatter composition of the Gilgamesh into matter (without the dangerous consequences mentioned in the scientific aside above).
This I assume is the Green marks which appears on the Leader of the Gilgamesh for example.
The Blattalia are also covered with the same ore found in the cavern of Gilgamesh's tomb, this negates dynamis and acts as a sheild from the effects of it.
Therefore I'm conjecturing that the "change" or "evolution" that Gilgamesh and Enkidu want to instigate by the sheltering sky is to make everyone like them. The Devils children could be the first stage of this change......what do you think?
westsideplaya
2004-02-06, 13:34
I've been watching Gilgamesh right the way through and have to say the storyline has improved. Also the OP and ED themes are pretty groovy too.
Here are some answers for you that I have understood so far from the series (I haven't kept my episodes and only watched them once due to a lack of disk space by having to much Anime already :heh:)
At the original site of excavation of Gilgamesh's tomb (where the strange tower that was the site of Twin X was built and ORGA the international research team was based) a large underground cavern was discovered. This cavern contained a strange ore and also a dimensional portal!
The Gilgamesh side are made out of/contain Antimatter and can "transform" themselves and use special powers by utilising this source.
Small semi-scientific aside: Antimatter is the opposite material that everything in our world is made of, Atoms contain Protons, Neutrons and Electrons, Antimatter Atoms contain Anti-Protons, Anti-Neutrons and Positrons, its like a mirror image of what we are constructed from. Anti matter and matter usually cannot exist in the same place as each other as if they come into contact with each other they destroy each other creating HUGE amounts of energy in the process. This would be an extreme bummer in our universe (as wherever antimatter/matter came into contact most things would be destroyed if not by the process but by then by the energy released by it). Fortunately our universe seems to be "missing" most of its antimatter, scientists cannot currently explain why there is not the same amount of Anti-matter in our universe as there is matter.
Anyhow back to the plot. :p
On Twin X a devastating process was unleashed at the site of Gilgameshes tomb by Madoka's father which changed the function of the Earths magnetic field in the upper atmosphere, both creating the "sheltering sky", and knocking out most modern (computer based) technology at the same time.
Since that day children with strange psychic gifts have been born ("The Devils children" - ie Madoka's allies)
Madoka was cloned from his father "Enkidu" who seems to be blessed with Dynamis along with both the "Devils children" and "Gilgamesh".
The Sheltering sky is causing some sort of change on the Earth instigated on the day of Twin X.
The Blattalia (Cyborgs - Machine Body - Human brains) have weapons which can change the Antimatter composition of the Gilgamesh into matter (without the dangerous consequences mentioned in the scientific aside above).
This I assume is the Green marks which appears on the Leader of the Gilgamesh for example.
The Blattalia are also covered with the same ore found in the cavern of Gilgamesh's tomb, this negates dynamis and acts as a sheild from the effects of it.
Therefore I'm conjecturing that the "change" or "evolution" that Gilgamesh and Enkidu want to instigate by the sheltering sky is to make everyone like them. The Devils children could be the first stage of this change......what do you think?
Sounds good. Thats why I like the show because Im a technical guy and love science themed shows. All I know the makers did some heavy research to incorporate all these physics concepts into one show.
yo,
first i want to tell about the thing with the missing matter that should be in universe:
quote: Fortunately our universe seems to be "missing" most of its antimatter, scientists cannot currently explain why there is not the same amount of Anti-matter in our universe as there is matter.
Scientists are really sure about it that there is matter that they call dark-matter because it interfers the way the universe expands. (read about it in books from Stephen Hawking)
2nd: Dont you think that Tsutomu Nihei has something to do with this anime? but he surly inspired it. With that human-exoscelet-dog-cyborg and the dark mood in it.(maybe)
3rd: How can you speculate about whats the ending? Best thing is to watch a see whats happening next. BUT i think its an alien-religious-sisreunien-aozora-happy-ending.(someway with dad is comming home), no no hopefully not.
4th: Gilgamesh rules
5th:Gilgamesh rules
Kakashi Sensei
2004-02-06, 17:24
Ooo.. :) I'm happy I'm not the only one in universe that likes this show! Anyway, thanks for clearing some things up with all your discussion going on.
Question: Anyone know where to find the manga, since ya'll watch it?
i want to take some words back i wrote in the thread above.
i dont hope that it will be an ending like discribed, because i think it will not be like that. And if it is, i think they will do it right in the way they made the series.
my words are just expression of fear that they will spoil it someway.
Bullsquat
2004-02-11, 23:55
After 17 episodes, still nobody knows how many in total there will be? I just want to start d/l again once I know the end is near coz waiting for the next episode can be excrutiating.
Kakashi Sensei
2004-02-17, 17:36
Well, it's been more than two weeks since Gilgamesh #17 came out. So far, you can find #20 raw for some reason or another.
But I'm being patient, since it's so worth the wait.
Also, I found in a forum that there will be 26 episodes, supposedly. I thought AnimeForever (who subs it) might have dropped, but then I suppose they wouldn't if its only a few more. Plus the fact they never said they were. Hopefully it'll be out soon.
Well, here's to all you Gilgamesh lovers out there. :) :)
http://www.gilxx.com/
Tofusensei
2004-02-17, 20:59
Groups don't really drop shows as easily as you may think :P
-Tofu
NoSanninWa
2004-02-17, 21:01
Yay! It's Tofusensei! I'm so happy that L-E isn't dropping this show. I'm still waiting for you to release episode 12. Can you tell us how it is progressing? Did you loose a translator or something?
Yeah, AnimeForever hasn't dropped Gilgamesh, the majority of the team are Gilgamesh fantatics ;P What's the hold-up? I blame Final Fantasy XI. MMORPGs are internet crack, and three members of our team took some of it in ^_^;
Just kidding. There should be a release or two soon. Sorry for the hold-up.
Bullsquat
2004-02-18, 13:16
So is it confirmed that it'll be 26 episodes?
By the by, u guys @ AnimeForever r doing a great job. Take your time, quality matters most of all.
Tofusensei
2004-02-18, 14:06
Yay! It's Tofusensei! I'm so happy that L-E isn't dropping this show. I'm still waiting for you to release episode 12. Can you tell us how it is progressing? Did you loose a translator or something?
no comment >:D
-Tofu
wow, this thread is great news...I kind of assumed that Gilgamesh would be 26 episodes, but I thought perhaps the series had been dropped by atleast one of the groups doing it. THANKS AGAIN TO GROUPS SUBBING GILGAMESH! THIS IS THE BEST SERIES TO COME OUT IN THE PAST YEAR
Kakashi Sensei
2004-02-20, 22:07
::sigh:: It's been like... eighteen? nineteen days?
Must...... have.... Gilgamesh!! ::drops dead:
Wicked Child
2004-02-21, 05:06
Yes, it's been too long since we've last had a new subbed Gilgamesh. It's eating away at me! Okay so maybe it isn't but I need my Gilgamesh fix. Badly.
I've resorted to downloading the raws, despite the fact I can't understand a thing. But it's one way to see the series.
And according to the official website, the series is 26 episodes long. And we'll be seeing new people coming into it as well. They just updated the site again with a new background and wallpapers for download.
But I must say, "Thank you" to those that do sub the series because without y'all I wouldn't have become addicted.
Bullsquat
2004-02-21, 14:44
It's good to finally know how many total episodes there are.
I too am crazy about this show. But rather than waiting in angst every week for the new episode, I've decided to wait till the anime nears its conclusion before watching anymore. It's easier on the membrane.
What do you guys think if a live action series made based on Gilgamesh anime? ^^
LinChoiSin
2004-02-21, 22:18
i wonder what's gonna happen with Madoka but i hope the recent events
will make him more determined because so far except for the dynamis i find hard to believe that he's related to Enkidu .
Wicked Child
2004-02-22, 04:24
Yay! Finally more people to discuss Gilgamesh with. That makes me strangely giddy.
The animation style at first caught me off guard. I still look at the character designs and think, "Ohmygod! They have lips!!! They have honest to God lips!" And is it just me or are Gilgamesh extremely tall without wearing platforms?
In regards to the Blattaria, I can't say much other than that they can't be humans. A few others here have given their own hypothesis on what they are exactly and it seems very plausible. Considering they seem emotionless and are obedient and efficient in their tasks (killing Gilgamesh), a cyborg seems most likely. If that was in fact confirmed in a raw episode, then all the better.
Gilgamesh, from what I've gathered, are clones that were created prior to Twin X, and were subsequently "stolen" by Enkidu. The blond male Gilgamesh, Novem (I believe that's his name considering one of the other male Gilgamesh called him by that name when he "kidnapped" Kiyoko, and also the official website has a mini wallpaper gallery devoted to him which I'm thankful for), is apparently the only surviving male Gilgamesh. There are still three females to contend with and I have a feeling that Madoka is a member of the Gilgamesh as well. At least that's the impression I've gotten from watching the show.
From looking at screencaps at the official site, Novem seems to get better whether just by a natural healing ability or because he, in effect, "sees a doctor" is still uncertain. Though a part of me wonders if Kiyoko didn't have something to do with it.
Tatsuya is Enkidu's clone from what I understand and I believe it considering that father and "son" look extremely alike. In fact, so do mother and daughter (as seen in the raw of 21). For a moment I thought, "Incest!" But then it was seemingly explained (despite the fact that I didn't understand a word being said).
I'm just curious to know who Gilgamesh were cloned from. And I'm also wondering if the Orga kids aren't in some way clones themselves. I reject the alien idea right now because I haven't seen anything to really suggest it or even imply it but if any of you can clue me in by all means do! :D I'm still just happy that more people like this series.
Do you any of you subscribe to the "Gilgamesh are the enemy" mentality or are you still wondering who the actual enemy is? Part of me wonders if the Gilgamesh kids that were "killed" by the Blattaria were taken by the pinstripped suit guy and experimented on/with.
Also, I don't know if any of you consider what I've said spoilerish but I'm still not certain on how to hide it behind the cut (I'm too lazy to read that thread right now and I have to finish writing a lemon that's now an hour overdue) so if you have felt that you've been spoiled by my comments I sincerely apologize and a nice comment telling me so will prompt me to edit this post and hide the sections you feel are spoilers. I know it will be too late for you personally but at least you'll be helping out others who may feel the same.
By the by, do any of you know where to find the raws of 18 and 19? I'm addicted enough that I'll watch the raws and try to discern my own answers despite the language barrier. Oh and according to the official web site, there are 26 episodes.
Anlushac11
2004-02-22, 06:03
Just my .02c
The Blattaira are clones that are converted to cyborgs and are the humanoid version of the cyborg ORGA guard dogs. Thier armor is covered in the strange ore. I thought the lances used against Gilgamesh neutralized the store of anti-matter each of the kids has inside. It seemed to cause them to crystallize.
I hve two theories on the dimensional doorway.
1) The human scientists went through and saw a ruined parallel universe that was destroyed and was on the same course we were on. Madoka's father caused Twin X to cause the mutation of the human race. Diversity is the key to a races survival. History has shown that a species isolated does not evolve and is very vulnerable to any changes to its enviroemtn and will usually die out.
Enkidu is trying to force the humans to evolve to either prevent humans from going extinct by forcing their diversity in case of a catastrophe or he knows something is going to happen and is trying to prepare humanity for it.
ORGA was the attempt to do it by artifical means through gene splicing and cloning. I think the technology came from the other side of the dimensional doorway.
From here I have two theories on this line
A) There is a group represented by ORGA that wants to control humanity and subvert it to its purposes. To counter this Enkidu caused Twin X to negate ORGA's efforts, in essence power in the hands of a few can be used to control. But that same power in everyones hands would negate the ability to use that power to control.
B) Persons or entities unknown came through the dimensional doorway and "invaded" our dimension. Enkidu knows what their goal is and caused Twin X to prevent or hamper their efforts. The Glasses dude and the Blattaria(sp?) are from the other dimension and have offered their "assistance" in dealing with Gilgamesh.
2) When humans were screwing around with the dimensional doorway they screwed up and created a dimensional pocket that enclosed part of the earth.
Keep in mind that in Ancient Sumerian Mythology Gilgamesh was the King of Uruk and Enkidu was created by the Gods to be his brother. Gilgamesh and Enkidu defeated the Giant Humbaba and the Bull of heaven. Enkidu died and Gilgamesh was in mourning til he decided he did not want to die like Enkidu as he feared death.
Gilgamesh went to the Mountain of Mashu where two Scorpion men were guarding the gate that led to the garden of the gods.
The Epic of Gilgamesh has a flood story that tells that the Gods became annoyed with the noise of man and caused the flood to destroy them. But Ea caused Utnapishtim to build a boat and put on it the seeds of all life, thus mankind was spared.
Utnapishtim told Gilgamesh he would give him the secret to eternal life if he could stay awake for six days and seven nights. Gilgamesh could not and was returning to home when Utnapishtim gave Gilgamesh the gift of a plant similar to a rose with a prickle like thorns that restored youth. During his trip home Gilgamesh lost the plant fighting a sea serpent and returned to Uruk where he later died. He is supposed to still be buried in his tomb.
Basically the majority of Gilgamesh's journeys were to seek the secret to immortality.
dreamless
2004-02-22, 06:54
I like Gilgamesh a lot since the start... and I still wonder who the real enemy is... so far the gilgamesh boys showed much humanity while the Countess showed much... inhumanity...
Prince of Chronics
2004-02-27, 04:35
I just finished downloading the three episodes that AF-F released.... but I just got around to watching episode 18... this episode was great... I like the appearance of other gilgamesh members... it was nice to see their powers other than shooting psychic attacks, changing into monsters and teleporting... I really liked the wind, electricity and water(?) attacks that they did to the Blattaria... things seems to be getting more interesting... hopefully, the next two eps are just as good... if only I didn't need to sleep, I'd watch em right now.... :D
dont read unless u really really wannnnanananan , this is after ep 20
hoho kiyoko is pregnant from the gilgamesh dude, and she can use some dynamis now... but at the end of ep 20.. it seems she died/ went into a coma
I need to see the next ep now. ;_; About akachan, it has only been a couple of days (??) but with such power...wah... Tatsuya was being such a cute little brother.
Grifis
Ok, so I just finished episode 20 and...damn I need more.
I really wonder where the writers are going with this incest thing, though. Will they explain it away somehow, or will they denounce it. And the ending of EP 20- gosh!
One thing that is obvious now- the subject matter of this anime continues to become darker and more mature (meaning it treats the subject matter well). There are very few animes that integrate such serious issues so well- and in the midst of a great story- it kills me how underrated this anime is.
Oh...and the whole thing in episode 20 with a certain one of the dynamis children- very interesting.
Wicked Child
2004-03-04, 02:49
After watching eps 18 I got the feeling that the newest Gilgamesh represent the four elements of earth (fire, air, water, wind) to some extent. It seems rather obvious for me to say that but no one else really mentioned that so I wouldn't mind hearing anyone else's opinion on this.
Following are questions that may have spoilers throughout so I'm just going to hide it all. Just in case.
Obviously Kiyoko is pregnant by Novem and the child is growing at a rather rapid pace which is making it difficult for the mother. Kiyoko is a normal girl, though I'd like to see her kick someone's derrier just once. I'm a fan of the girl, what can I say? :)
I found it interesting that Tatsuya dreamed about his sister and Novem making out, on a couch no less (who said this show doesn't have any normalcy?). Is it his connection with his sister or his connection to Enkidu and Gilgamesh that brought that about? And why was he so adamant that she not go near him in the dream? Was it the incest angle or just a younger brother concerned?
I am also not surprised that Fujisaki, Fuu, and Tooru are clones either. Considering they use dynamis and can go toe to toe with Gilgamesh it was expected really.
And the dark haired girl, whose bangs cover her eyes, could she be the Countess' clone? That thought just hit me and I'm now curious. Something else to ponder I suppose.
I agree with wsheit though. This show is completely underrated and is one of the few anime's out there that is able to deal with dark material and subject matter maturely.
And another thing. I know keep rambling so forgive me please. But considering our theories about the Blattaria, what do we think now? After their encounter with Kiyoko, they retreated and helped carry off their injured. I find that another point of interest. What do y'all think?
[color=darkorchid]
I found it interesting that Tatsuya dreamed about his sister and Novem making out, on a couch no less (who said this show doesn't have any normalcy?). Is it his connection with his sister or his connection to Enkidu and Gilgamesh that brought that about? And why was he so adamant that she not go near him in the dream? Was it the incest angle or just a younger brother concerned?
It seems to me Tatsuya sees Kiyoko more than just his sister. He's known for being a sis-com boy. :D
Grifis
It seems to me Tatsuya sees Kiyoko more than just his sister.
This apsect of gilgamesh is really bothering me... though we have to admit there is no blood relationship between them (though they came from the same womb :eyebrow: ). I have a feeling that perhaps they can't help to feel a certain je ne sais quoi between themselves seeing that their genetic counterparts obviously (or at least i would like to think so) had some sort of physical/chemical/whatever you want to call it attraction to each other. any ideas?
tsurumaru
2004-03-05, 04:42
This apsect of gilgamesh is really bothering me... though we have to admit there is no blood relationship between them (though they came from the same womb :eyebrow: ). I have a feeling that perhaps they can't help to feel a certain je ne sais quoi between themselves seeing that their genetic counterparts obviously (or at least i would like to think so) had some sort of physical/chemical/whatever you want to call it attraction to each other. any ideas?
well technically:
I was under this impression too, until I remembered that Tatsuya is a clone of his father (also Kiyoko's father). So for all intents and purposes there is a blood link between them, namely that Tatsuya is (a copy of) Kiyoko's father. Hmm So rather than brother/sister incest we have father/daughter incest......well thats obviously ok then! :twitch: :heh: :heh:
joedirtt99
2004-03-05, 09:26
*Spoilers* if you havent watched up to EP 20
What i dont understand is how everyone seems to be stuck on the whole "moralality" of the brother sister relationship. While what is "actually" happend is how Kiyoko got with a "DEMON" who at the time had have his skin looking like the terminator ya thats what normal humans would consider a "healthy" relationship. I mean just weigh the differences a chance at a few birth defects from a sibling offspring or a guaranteed DEMON child which would you choose?
Wolfsbane68
2004-03-05, 11:01
joedirtt99, you seem to subscribe to the BBC-documentary view of morals as something to do with getting healthy offspring ;) As the Pakistani, Bangladeshi, and Iraqi Shi'a paternal cousin marriages show, it's not about the risk of birth defects, it's the pattern a society can get locked in. Or it could a caste system like in India, leading to stagnation and poverty for the majority of the people. So I guess it's just society overreacting to protect itself. OTOH, Novem was pretty hot even in the "terminator" mode :p
tsurumaru
2004-03-05, 19:06
*Spoilers* if you havent watched up to EP 20
What i dont understand is how everyone seems to be stuck on the whole "moralality" of the brother sister relationship. While what is "actually" happend is how Kiyoko got with a "DEMON" who at the time had have his skin looking like the terminator ya thats what normal humans would consider a "healthy" relationship. I mean just weigh the differences a chance at a few birth defects from a sibling offspring or a guaranteed DEMON child which would you choose?
Just because something looks like a demon doesn't necessarily mean that it is one.....
Hmm, I'm still not convinced at all that Gilgamesh are the "true" enemy of humanity although their actions go against that of "normal" society until we can fully understand their goal we shouldn't be so hasty to cast judgement.
I'll also spoiler my thoughts about what may happen:
Kiyoko's child may be an incarnation of the Alien lifeform "Tear" whose existence gave rise to both Gilgamesh and Orga Superior. I'm assuming this is the young girl that Kiyoko met during her dreams in episode 20 (and is the child she is carrying).
FromageTheDog
2004-03-09, 04:50
To paraphrase the great Mojo Jojo, episode 21 rocks so hard.
This series just keeps getting better and better. I was a little off-put by the sudden and rather out-of-character (for this series, anyway, IMHO) "earth, wind and fire" gilgamesh-lings, and the rather comical bowling alley warfare of the last episode, but this one's right back to the good stuff.
This is really one of those rare shows which takes its subject matter and the viewers seriously enough without seeming contrived or forced. I just hope they can end it well; I've seen enough anime shows that started out ferociously well, only to end on a whimper (Gasaraki), or worse yet, devolve into utter confusion (Eva) that I'm quite worried.
So anyway -- gushing aside: it seems like all the kiddies are clones of their parents, which I guess was pretty damned obvious from the last couple episodes -- except the sister, which I guess is the one natural kid. I'm glad someone (namely, Madoka) saw fit to put that old bag in her place (finally!).
The kids seemed awfully disturbed to discover they were clones... Is this really so bad? I mean, it's not like they had parents to begin with. Their reactions just seemed overly melodramatic to me... Or did they maybe learn something even worse...?
Agh! Can't wait for the next episodes!
- Fromage
Tofusensei
2004-03-11, 20:29
Live-eviL started releasing Gilgamesh again, just so you guys know...
Sorry for the delay :/
-Tofu
OMG, I was waiting for this! I haven't seen Gilgamesh in months! LE just finished like 12 episodes at once!! Thanks thanks!!
lynne_huang
2004-03-12, 14:33
accidentally posted twice, don't know how to delete my posts though. pls go to the next post!
lynne_huang
2004-03-12, 14:34
Warning: major spoilers up till ep 23 ahead and i don't know how to put the spoiler tag board so my post's in white colour. don't read it if u don't want to find out!
To paraphrase the great Mojo Jojo, episode 21 rocks so hard.
This series just keeps getting better and better. I was a little off-put by the sudden and rather out-of-character (for this series, anyway, IMHO) "earth, wind and fire" gilgamesh-lings, and the rather comical bowling alley warfare of the last episode, but this one's right back to the good stuff.
This is really one of those rare shows which takes its subject matter and the viewers seriously enough without seeming contrived or forced. I just hope they can end it well; I've seen enough anime shows that started out ferociously well, only to end on a whimper (Gasaraki), or worse yet, devolve into utter confusion (Eva) that I'm quite worried.
So anyway -- gushing aside: it seems like all the kiddies are clones of their parents, which I guess was pretty damned obvious from the last couple episodes -- except the sister, which I guess is the one natural kid. I'm glad someone (namely, Madoka) saw fit to put that old bag in her place (finally!).
The kids seemed awfully disturbed to discover they were clones... Is this really so bad? I mean, it's not like they had parents to begin with. Their reactions just seemed overly melodramatic to me... Or did they maybe learn something even worse...?
Agh! Can't wait for the next episodes!
- Fromage
here goes:
that's cuz they're weren't conceived naturally. there're fairly strong indications that their embryos were implanted in pigs (?!!) so having a PIG as a 'mother' might make one feel fairly screwed up and nauseated. i would, anyway. there comes the whole question: am i technically a pig or still homo sapiens? [there's a scene where Fuu tears up the stomach of her beloved pig stuff toy, crying repeatedly: "I'm not you, I'm not you.." that pretty much says it all, doesn't it?]
to compound things further, to lose your sense of identity and individuality by finding out you're a mere 'carbon copy'/clone of someone else is disorientating, to say the least.
warning again: major spoilers!
blattaria too, are clones, but their 'mothers' were sheep. they were cloned w technology obtained from Heaven's Gate. and they all appear to be female! i think having sheep as their 'parents' has another connotation to it, where sheep are really dumb animals and they're always guided by a shepherd? in this case, the shepherd's that Kaza-something guy.. the one who wears sunglasses 24/7. he tells them such dumb things and they actually listen to him??? too long to explain.
this gives the whole cloning issue a really revolting twist eh. 1st u've animal organs in you, and before you know it, they're your parents.
madoka's sister (i can't remember her name, im really horrible at names) doesn't exactly die? she's fusing with the gilgy embryo or something like that, so some part of her is still alive and crying out for Tatsuya. im still waiting to finish d.l ep 24 to find out what exactly happened or is going to happen.
rem that creepy girl who's w the Countess's grandfather? she has Dynamis as well? all that hair of hers covering her face ala Sadako? anyway she accidentally kills the grandfather, which sets off a chain of events. i do suspect that she MIGHT be the Countess's clone. they look too alike! the hair colour and the pale complexion..
lots more happened, too long to recap! go watch it pple! its great!!
Kakashi Sensei
2004-03-12, 16:20
Oh muh.... now I can't wait any longer! All three are downloading, but it's gonna be another 6-12 hours. :(:(:(:(:(
tsurumaru
2004-03-12, 21:47
Well that solves the Incest debate:
Tatsuya is a clone of his father and Kiyoko is a clone of her mother (for some reason). Therefore even though they were born out of the same womb they are not tecnically blood related......
Well that solves the Incest debate:
Tatsuya is a clone of his father and Kiyoko is a clone of her mother (for some reason). Therefore even though they were born out of the same womb they are not tecnically blood related......
hmmm... I kind of suspected that Kiyoko is a clone of her mother but haven't seen any evidence to support that conclusion. It seems their feelings are like those of their originals':
Tatsuya -> Kiyoko just like Terumichi -> Azusa
Fujisaki -> Countess just like Takaaki -> Countess
Fuu -> Tatsuya just like Haruka -> Terumichi
Grifis
FromageTheDog
2004-03-13, 02:46
There's a scene where Fuu tears up the stomach of her beloved pig stuff toy, crying repeatedly: "I'm not you, I'm not you.." that pretty much says it all, doesn't it?
Ah -- "Uchi wa aho dakara" I didn't get that the first time around; now that you've pointed it out, it's all quite clear -- thanks!
to compound things further, to lose your sense of identity and individuality by finding out you're a mere 'carbon copy'/clone of someone else is disorientating, to say the least.
I accept that it could be disorienting, but I guess I'm surprised that they all reacted so strongly, esp. the rather thoughtful Fujisaki. The sum total of our life experiences makes us who we are; the idea of being a clone of someone else really doesn't disturb me much at all, esp. if the template is dead.
Now a Blade Runner type implanted memories clone, where there could be some other person running around that's exactly like me -- that definitely creeps me out.
blattaria too, are clones, but their 'mothers' were sheep. they were cloned w technology obtained from Heaven's Gate. and they all appear to be female! i think having sheep as their 'parents' has another connotation to it, where sheep are really dumb animals and they're always guided by a shepherd?
Yeah, I thought that was a fairly nice touch, though I wonder what the implications of the other kids being sourced from pigs is...? Or maybe I'm reading into this too much...
Also, are you sure they're female? They appeared to me to be young clones of Kazematsuri; I figured the emphasis on their eyes, followed by Kaze taking of his sunglasses to reveal his eyes made it pretty clear. I thought the wings were a really nice touch...
rem that creepy girl who's w the Countess's grandfather? she has Dynamis as well? all that hair of hers covering her face ala Sadako? anyway she accidentally kills the grandfather, which sets off a chain of events. i do suspect that she MIGHT be the Countess's clone. they look too alike! the hair colour and the pale complexion..
YES! The exact same thing crossed my mind, though I found it inconsistent that the countess is clearly a very, very smart woman, whereas that girl is quite the simpleton (or so it seems).
BTW, I've always thought the Kyoto accent rather charming, so by extension I found the girl charming; a litte sad, given that she's a blind simpleton (though Ep. 24 would seem to imply she's not quite that helpless at all).
Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
- Fromage
P.S. -- spoiler tags: with square brackets -- (SPOILER)(/SPOILER)
Tofusensei
2004-03-13, 15:50
Hi,
I just wanted to put this out in a public forum of sorts, because it is bothering me. I have heard many different rumors and accusations regarding the recent Live-eviL Gilgamesh episodes. Some people have said that L-E stopped subbing this project after episode 11 because the terminology used in the show was too "difficult" for us, and we could not continue. Then I have also used that we used the AF-F releases as a source to sub the eps we released...
I am not sure who started saying this (AF-F zealots? L-E haters?), but it's 100% false. The fact of the matter is, we stopped releasing Gilgamesh episodes after L-E tentaively shut down for a month when I left to go to Japan (I am sure that others on this forum remember this, and if you don't believe me, look at our release schedule. If you notice there is a month of time between 12/25 and 1/30 where we did not release a SINGLE episode. http://envirosphere.com/groups.php?gs=27 )
I don't believe greenkabbage, the L-E Gilgamesh translator reads animesuki forums, but as a good friend of his, I am terribly offended by these rumors. He's possibly the best translator I have ever worked with and has never had a single problem understanding any of the aforementioned "terminology" used in the show. To think that they'd say that we needed to copy AF-F scripts is preposterous. Not to mention people who say that L-E Gilgamesh translations are bad... I dare you to point out any error of any decent proportion in any of the episodes we just released. In fact, I'd like to know them myself.
He had these episodes translated ages ago. After I left for Japan the project sidelined due to the absence/disappearance of a few key members, and we just recently got it back on track.
Also, to anyone who thinks that L-E was stockpiling the episodes in order to "catch back up" or something. The real truth to all that is this... After episode 14 of Gilgamesh a new OP sequence is used. We waited for over a month for the original styler of our Gilgamesh typeset to come up with a new OP but he was unable to produce, and eventually his computer crapped out and he couldn't make anything. After this happened, we outsourced the OP sequence to friends of ours at Idealogy Fansubs to help style the new OP, and after they finished it, we were FINALLY able to encode eps 14+. I received the OP file on Tuesday. We released eps 14-24 on Thursday.
Anyway, I am sick of people who think they know everything when in fact they are totally wrong. If you are not positive about something, don't go preaching off to others with your falacies. You're just helping to give L-E and the entire fansub scene a bad name. Unless that is your intention, which just makes you a bad person.
-Tofu (L-E Gilgamesh editor, typesetter, encoder)
LinChoiSin
2004-03-13, 21:53
Well that solves the Incest debate:
Tatsuya is a clone of his father and Kiyoko is a clone of her mother (for some reason). Therefore even though they were born out of the same womb they are not tecnically blood related......
that's what i thought at first but we have no evidence about it, or maybe i missed something?
lynne_huang
2004-03-14, 13:04
that's what i thought at first but we have no evidence about it, or maybe i missed something?
yeah me too, but there really isn't any evidence at the moment to suggest that relationship. it might be just physical resemblance? cuz i do vaguely recall in ep21/22(?)
Kiyoko's mum saying tt Terumachi wants Kiyoko to be born in Japan, away from Heaven's Gate as to avoid the possibility of her born with Dynamis. to me, that indicates tt Kiyoko's conceived thru natural means.
i guess we'll have to wait and see how it progresses.. so far, its been such a brilliant anime and i really really don't want it to end!! =(
lynne_huang
2004-03-14, 13:47
being sourced from pigs is...?
Or maybe I'm reading into this too much...
well, i think the 'pigs' part is supposed to provide and give a demeaning, even degrading, connotation. pigs are generally seen as stupid, lazy, slobby, dirty and fat creatures that are just bred for human consumption. and they are also, pretty low in the hierachy of the animal kingdom. (in my humble opinion anyway, though its been proven somewhere in some science journal that pigs are actually pretty smart.) so, if
Fuu n Fujisaki were given birth by such 'dumb' and lowly beasts like pigs, would they not feel icky and grossed out? (i would i would!) *images of piglets squealing and rolling about in a dirty pigsty come to mind* i know i know, its quite a childish view but i just can't help feeling this idea of Fuu and Fujisaki being 'low-bred' clones and simply, not homo sapiens is being portrayed by the 'pigs'. then again, i might be reading into this too much as well...
Also, are you sure they're female? They appeared to me to be young clones of Kazematsuri; I figured the emphasis on their eyes, followed by Kaze taking of his sunglasses to reveal his eyes made it pretty clear. I thought the wings were a really nice touch...
oooh yes i was wondering about that part too! definitely something to ponder about. i only thought
the blattaria were female cuz the voice-overs for them were distinctly female.
the countess is clearly a very, very smart woman, whereas that girl is quite the simpleton (or so it seems).
Yeah! exactly! maybe
something went wonky in the cloning process, which made her virtually the exact opposite of the countess's character. but she definitely is talented, in that she has lots of Dynamis. i thought Tetsuya was supposed to be rather strong, as compared to Fuu and (what's his name.. that wavy-haired boy) and even he couldn't hear Kiyoko.
and you know, with regards to ep 24, im really intrigued about how
Kiyoko knew Terumachi's plans, the new 'gift' of Dynamis to the Gilgamesh.. which sparks off a fury of other questions such as: is Dynamis a separate entity, can it be harnessed, why can it be transferred without any physical contact from one Gilgamesh member to the other Gilgamesh members (recall: Tetsuya n co always transferred Dynamis via physical contact by touching foreheads to each other) and did they not already have Dynamis in the beginning? so was everything they'd done previously (all those big bangs and flashes of light) all anti-matter and matter manipulation?
Anyway, thanks Fromage for bringing up all those points to think about!
- Lynne
Kakashi Sensei
2004-03-23, 01:03
Gilgamesh has ended. Thus, a discussion thread is in order.
How about... *cough* waiting for the subs? ;P You want it to be spoiled that badly?
AnimeOni
2004-03-23, 05:18
The ending is typical for this type of anime. I didn't think it was that bad.
The ending is typical for this type of anime. I didn't think it was that bad.
What is "this type of anime" ?
Tofusensei
2004-03-23, 09:57
The subs are out... Read the headlines at http://www.live-evil.org for more info.
-Tofu
eXistenZ
2004-03-23, 11:35
oh god now im gonna have to think.
this totally reminds me of NGE in the type of ending, not from the movies but from the series
Thanks live evil, Gilgamesh 25 and 26 are released so fast. :)
Mephisto03
2004-03-23, 18:26
OMG that was great, freakin amazing! I'm so glad I sticked to this anime and watched the whole thing it was quite simply. Amazing. Especially the end the very last part, I was like ohh this is gay they should have ended it with the earth shot and then bam! that was great.
Wicked Child
2004-03-23, 18:28
I personally am at a loss for words. I don't know what to think or feel. I'm confused.
I'm a wee bit pissed off but that might be due to my confusion.
And I am just finally happy I got to see Novem's Gilgamesh form. I'd been wondering what he looked like all "monstered up". But I'm happier for something he said because I'm a dork like that.
Overall dunno what to think of the series. I like it a lot, I'm just not sure if I'm completely happy with the way it ended because to me there was still more to be done. I dunno. I'm just confused. Don't mind me.
EDIT: Thank you Live-eviL & Anime-Forever for subbing this series.
dreamless
2004-03-23, 18:45
The ending is quite strange... I don't quite understand how the dead Reiko suddenly powers up and kills all the remaining Gilgamesh... Also about the very end... so the only one left alive on Earth is Kyoko and Novem's child?
DarknessTear
2004-03-23, 19:13
She killed TEAR basically.
kanazuchi
2004-03-23, 19:43
I think my head almost exploded watching that, it was almost as much of a mind-job as EOE...
Wicked Child
2004-03-23, 20:12
A friend of mine mentioned this to me which got me to thinking. Is that Kiyoko at the end or Novem's and Kiyoko's child that kills TEAR? Kiyoko fused with the child, hence the cocoon, so perhaps the child took on the mother's form but has Gilgamesh powers. Either way, I'm just happy that Novem actually loved Kiyoko. Seriously I am. I really liked Kiyoko and felt for her throughout the series so his admission was worth the rest of the shock.
I also have to say that I've always disliked the Countess. But their reason for expalining TEAR and who brought that about was kinda shaky to me. In some ways I wonder if the series is over or if there will be something else.
Kakashi Sensei
2004-03-23, 20:23
A very sad ending indeed....
And just in case no one got it, I found a few Biblical symbolisms. One, the 'cleansing flood' could refer to Noah's ark, which basically cleansed the world of evil etc. Also, if you go to the webpage, you'll find a cross in several of the wallpapers. Also, at the end when 'Kiyoko' kills the little-girl-thing, it is somewhat like Cain and Able, the sons of Adam and Eve, the story where Cain killed his own brother. It was at the beginning of the world, which the end of the series is - the world begun again. (Well, either that or a dream?) Also, the whole Enkidu/Countess thing is somewhat like the garden of Eden. Both were banished for what the woman had done. (Kinda like she lost her heart?)
Well, that's what I found. Anyone else get anything like that out of it?
And I HOPE for a new season! That'd be awesome if somehow they could make a sequel, though I don't really dare to hope.
Tofusensei
2004-03-23, 20:26
A very sad ending indeed....
And just in case no one got it, I found a few Biblical symbolisms. One, the 'cleansing flood' could refer to Noah's ark, which basically cleansed the world of evil etc. Also, if you go to the webpage, you'll find a cross in several of the wallpapers. Also, at the end when 'Kiyoko' kills the little-girl-thing, it is somewhat like Cain and Able, the sons of Adam and Eve, the story where Cain killed his own brother. It was at the beginning of the world, which the end of the series is - the world begun again. (Well, either that or a dream?) Also, the whole Enkidu/Countess thing is somewhat like the garden of Eden. Both were banished for what the woman had done. (Kinda like she lost her heart?)
Well, that's what I found. Anyone else get anything like that out of it?
And I HOPE for a new season! That'd be awesome if somehow they could make a sequel, though I don't really dare to hope.
Hehe, you forgot the last supper they had in ep 25 ^^
-Tofu
Kakashi Sensei
2004-03-23, 20:45
Hm... I did miss that one! :D
And in the words of my not-so-native tongue...
Tu madre. :eyespin:
dreamless
2004-03-23, 21:08
A friend of mine mentioned this to me which got me to thinking. Is that Kiyoko at the end or Novem's and Kiyoko's child that kills TEAR? Kiyoko fused with the child, hence the cocoon, so perhaps the child took on the mother's form but has Gilgamesh powers. Either way, I'm just happy that Novem actually loved Kiyoko. Seriously I am. I really liked Kiyoko and felt for her throughout the series so his admission was worth the rest of the shock.
I also have to say that I've always disliked the Countess. But their reason for expalining TEAR and who brought that about was kinda shaky to me. In some ways I wonder if the series is over or if there will be something else.
I think apparently it's Kiyoko and Novem's child, since it's shown clearly that Kiyoko and Tatsuya's souls left the world together, so in the end only her child was left in the cocoon.
Personally I don't think it's as confusing or messy as EoE, but still very weird...
I think Kiyoko already died after Tatsuya's dream. So her spirit and Tatsuya spirit were together at the end. As for her form coming out from the cocoon, it's not her anymore. It's probably the child fused with her form and took over her body. After 'she' killed TEAR 'she' had a kind of 'crazy' smile and sounded like TEAR itself. She didn't look or sounded like a normal person to me in that last 3 seconds. I don't know what the hell was that. Then you see the tuning fork buried on barren land. So it was extinction in the end afterall. Eh... I dunno...
Grifis
What can I say? I'm not even sure how I'm feeling right now. I can't get the NGE feeling out of my head. It seems kind of depressing on how the characters had ended up, yet couldn't help but laugh as the tuning fork became the final weapon. Damed surprising though on how the Countess's role played out. A shame it had to end like that but I guess one side at least would have had to eventually fold for this series to have any kind of a real ending.
For the series overall, I feel it was very much worth the watch,.. mostly for the story and character development.
another biblical allusion: The receiving of the Holy Spirit/Cleansing Flood in ep. 24 to some type of followers
Overall, this excellent anime makes my top 3 list- the other 2 being Naruto and Scrapped Princess (i know, i know- they're all new and I'm a completely uncultured swine)
the rest of my thoughts are in the spoiler box:
That whole thing about Reiko being a guy made me laugh- that was great.
Man, that thing with the fork in Kiyoko-daughter's hand. I wondered for a second why the fork had been featured so prominently before- suddenly I knew exactly what she was going to do with it....brilliant.
The more I think about the ending, the more I liked it- but there are still some things I need explained.
For instance, what exactly was Gilgamesh and more importantly, why did the countess say in an earlier episode that Gilgamesh is time?
And how does the countess know about the cleansing flood- she seems to know what Terumichi is going to do even before she learns that she is to blame for TEAR?
Finally, it would be nice to know what the deal is with Reiko- there are some odd things said about her near the end.
FromageTheDog
2004-03-23, 23:21
I'll be the first person to admit that I don't "get it", but I defy anyone to prove that they really do. As other's in this thread have rightly pointed out, this smacks of the Eva-style "I had a great idea to start with, but no idea how to bring it to a close" storyline. These last two episodes feel like either:
1.) The producer(s) had a much longer story arc in mind, and upon realizing this wasn't possible, threw something together to "finish" it.
2.) They had a series of great ideas for a world and theme, but no real "story".
These metaphysical explorations can be successfully done -- Rahxephon is a great example, as is the (punishingly depressive) Saikano, and I still think Gilgamesh was a great series, but (as I feared) I'm a little disappointed by these last two episodes and the lack of any satisfying end to the story. Note that I use "end", not "closure".
Ack. It was fun while it lasted; I probably shouldn't be so harsh.
- Fromage
Mephisto03
2004-03-23, 23:30
I'd beg to differ, I think the story went along fine and they didn't rush anything. If you didn't get it then you didn't get it, thats not the creators fault imo. For me, everything made sense and wrapped up what I was questioning from the beginning. For some it was opposite, ohh well.
I'll be the first person to admit that I don't "get it", but I defy anyone to prove that they really do. As other's in this thread have rightly pointed out, this smacks of the Eva-style "I had a great idea to start with, but no idea how to bring it to a close" storyline. These last two episodes feel like either:
1.) The producer(s) had a much longer story arc in mind, and upon realizing this wasn't possible, threw something together to "finish" it.
2.) They had a series of great ideas for a world and theme, but no real "story".
These metaphysical explorations can be successfully done -- Rahxephon is a great example, as is the (punishingly depressive) Saikano, and I still think Gilgamesh was a great series, but (as I feared) I'm a little disappointed by these last two episodes and the lack of any satisfying end to the story. Note that I use "end", not "closure".
Ack. It was fun while it lasted; I probably shouldn't be so harsh.
- Fromage
I don't think there's any comparing this series to one like Rahxephon. Rahxephon had very typical character design and non-edgy setting that most all animes deal with. This series was so different from anything we've seen before.
while I'm still trying to figure out a few loose ends, I really liked the ending. And I think the writers had this type of ending in mind to begin with- how else do you explain such a terribly apt use for the tuning fork- and the horrible dark use of the animation of it at the VERY end (this very animation was in the ending song, which has been around since the beginning of the series)
dreamless
2004-03-23, 23:56
the rest of my thoughts are in the spoiler box:
That whole thing about Reiko being a guy made me laugh- that was great.
Man, that thing with the fork in Kiyoko-daughter's hand. I wondered for a second why the fork had been featured so prominently before- suddenly I knew exactly what she was going to do with it....brilliant.
The more I think about the ending, the more I liked it- but there are still some things I need explained.
For instance, what exactly was Gilgamesh and more importantly, why did the countess say in an earlier episode that Gilgamesh is time?
And how does the countess know about the cleansing flood- she seems to know what Terumichi is going to do even before she learns that she is to blame for TEAR?
Finally, it would be nice to know what the deal is with Reiko- there are some odd things said about her near the end.I think the Countess learned of the Cleansing Flood from Tatsuya who learned it from Kiyoko who learned it from her child's supernatural connection with the TEAR (quite a long way...)
I'll be the first person to admit that I don't "get it", but I defy anyone to prove that they really do. As other's in this thread have rightly pointed out, this smacks of the Eva-style "I had a great idea to start with, but no idea how to bring it to a close" storyline. These last two episodes feel like either:
1.) The producer(s) had a much longer story arc in mind, and upon realizing this wasn't possible, threw something together to "finish" it.
2.) They had a series of great ideas for a world and theme, but no real "story".
These metaphysical explorations can be successfully done -- Rahxephon is a great example, as is the (punishingly depressive) Saikano, and I still think Gilgamesh was a great series, but (as I feared) I'm a little disappointed by these last two episodes and the lack of any satisfying end to the story. Note that I use "end", not "closure".
Ack. It was fun while it lasted; I probably shouldn't be so harsh.I think RahXephon had a much more confusing ending at that time and many people interpreted it wrongly (reset world, changing history, etc. etc.) until some time later people start to link it up with the Aztec mythology connections and really start to understand it. Same thing happened to Lain and EVA. So I think we should give it some more time before saying that Gilgamesh's ending is "I had a great idea to start with, but no idea how to bring it to a close".
For starter, I think we can try to discuss some specific questions about the ending that we feel some difficulty understanding... like, why Reiko had that awesome power to kill all Gilgamesh instantly...
Oh, and I think that killing TEAR/God with a tuning fork scene at the very end is absolutely fantastic :cool:
eXistenZ
2004-03-24, 00:07
even tho i said i was gonna have to think, i dont think one bit of the story should be changed or added too. Very NGE-ish as i said but it differed from NGE in that instead of escaping into the world of the mind and heart it went straight to the matter.
the countess chose cleaninsing of the world, what she wanted in her heart. thats were it also diferentiates between NGE, NGE more importantly shinji choose the world of hate and ego and love and seperation and seeking, the countess chose a fresh start without these things, without the humanity that we all know. Tho it did leave what ifs in the mind, it left fulfillment for me.
This series goes onto my Favorites of all time.
NGE
Ghost In The Shell
Akira
Gilgamesh
Saikano
Macross Plus
Noir
Gunslinger Girl
Lain
Last Exile
Haibane Renmie
Initial D
Witch Hunter Robin
Peace Maker Kurogane(even tho one more episode to go.)
Naruto as well coz well i like the story
Full Metal Alchemist
Macross Zero
Tofusensei
2004-03-24, 00:09
"For instance, what exactly was Gilgamesh and more importantly, why did the countess say in an earlier episode that Gilgamesh is time?"
When was that said, exactly? I edited all 26 eps of the show and I don't remember that line... Makes me think either I was oblivious or there was a translation error somewhere?
-Tofu
"For instance, what exactly was Gilgamesh and more importantly, why did the countess say in an earlier episode that Gilgamesh is time?"
When was that said, exactly? I edited all 26 eps of the show and I don't remember that line... Makes me think either I was oblivious or there was a translation error somewhere?
-Tofu
I remember it quite clearly- it was somewhere back around episode 7-9
She said that Gilgamesh was not a person or thing but instead, time.
Maybe I'm crazy, but if so then I've been crazy for a long time- i had been waiting for a response to that comment
Tofusensei
2004-03-24, 01:30
I remember it quite clearly- it was somewhere back around episode 7-9
She said that Gilgamesh was not a person or thing but instead, time.
Maybe I'm crazy, but if so then I've been crazy for a long time- i had been waiting for a response to that comment
Hmm... I really don't know... I wish you knew where exactly it was, then I could tell you if she really said that or not so you won't have to go on wondering, hehe
-Tofu
kanazuchi
2004-03-24, 01:48
damnit, I need to get this series out of my head! Tis making me think way too much...
I don't recall hearing a line that Gilgamesh was time, either... at first I thought maybe it was difference in trans versions between L-E and AF-F but Tofu says he doesn't remember it either.
Finding out that Tear was actually linked to the Countess was pretty... revelation-like? Though it's still a bit difficult to really feel that it was HER fault. More like, now we know that the little fairy called Tear was responsible for everything, and not "Enkidu." The deaths of everyone at the end is a bit of a stereotypical type of end for this type of anime, but recently every series I've watched had characters all surviving, so it was somewhat emotional. Had my roommate not been around, I might have shed a few tears ^_~ (oh ho ho, good pun eh?)
As for the very end... I guess it could have been Kiyoko's child. I mean, Kiyoko looked EXACTLY like her mother to me, and they weren't clones. It's difficult to tell, though. Considering that Kiyoko drifted to that weird place when she was between death and life, I'd be cautious about saying that it was a place on Earth at all. But then again, she was seen floating away with Tatsuya, and the shell-thing WAS still there, indicating the physical realm... hard to say.
By the way, someone made a reference to Tear being God, I found that interesting. I wouldn't really make it myself, and I don't think Tear was intended to represent God, but it's interesting nontheless.
Actually, while I have this post here:
Anyone have any idea what it was that Tear said to Kiyoko/Kiyoko's child that set her off? I re-watched that segment and noticed that she emerges naked so it'd make sense that it was her child, though she seems adult-like already... but Tear says something, and then Kiyoko(?)'s eyes widen and it sets her off.
Anyone have any idea what it was that Tear said to Kiyoko/Kiyoko's child that set her off? I re-watched that segment and noticed that she emerges naked so it'd make sense that it was her child, though she seems adult-like already... but Tear says something, and then Kiyoko(?)'s eyes widen and it sets her off.
I was wondering about this too. It seems clear to me that Kiyoko/Kiyoko's child reacts to whatever Tear says: The widening of her eyes and the immediate use of the tuning fork. If it's really Kiyoko's newborn child and not Kiyoko she wouldn't have any knowledge of language or any memories so she would probably not react at all to Tear's words. They would be completely meaningless to her. But if it's Kiyoko or possibly her child with some of Kiyoko's memories intact then it would make more sense.
It's very hard to guess what Tear says though. From the animation it seems like it's 3 syllables. Maybe Tear simply says "Ki-yo-ko" slowly? (I can really picture that in my mind) But that only fits if it really is Kiyoko and not Kiyoko's child.
Kiyoko/Kiyoko's child seems very calm before she hears Tear's words. If we assume that it's Kiyoko maybe she doesn't remember who she is up to that point. But when Tear says "Ki-yo-ko" she suddenly remembers and lashes out in anger and retribution. In that momemt her tuning fork becomes her final tool of revenge.
If anyone else have any ideas about what Tear is saying it would be great.
dreamless
2004-03-24, 10:04
By the way, someone made a reference to Tear being God, I found that interesting. I wouldn't really make it myself, and I don't think Tear was intended to represent God, but it's interesting nontheless.
Actually I was not thinking about the Judo-Christian God when I said that TEAR being God. I mean, Gilgamesh was half-man half-god, so TEAR should be full-god. But then it's TEAR's will for the re-evolution of the world, and the root of the Cleansing Flood, so I guess you could say TEAR is somewhat like the Judo-Christian God...
Anyone have any idea what it was that Tear said to Kiyoko/Kiyoko's child that set her off? I re-watched that segment and noticed that she emerges naked so it'd make sense that it was her child, though she seems adult-like already... but Tear says something, and then Kiyoko(?)'s eyes widen and it sets her off.
My guess is that TEAR said something about the new change in the world,.. probably relating to power or a desired change in TEAR's desired image of the world. But I guess that it was Kiyoko's child that had emerged, and with it a trait of a half human, half Gilgamesh. So all the human stuff such as lust and greed had surfaced. Thus taking TEAR's life for the desire of power.
But then again, I might be just making all of this stuff up as I try to search for these answers. :innocent:
dreamless
2004-03-24, 10:09
Actually, while I have this post here:
Anyone have any idea what it was that Tear said to Kiyoko/Kiyoko's child that set her off? I re-watched that segment and noticed that she emerges naked so it'd make sense that it was her child, though she seems adult-like already... but Tear says something, and then Kiyoko(?)'s eyes widen and it sets her off.
If Kiyoko's dream sequence when she drifted between life and death is of any indication, TEAR said something like "let's play"?
Tofusensei
2004-03-24, 11:45
If Kiyoko's dream sequence when she drifted between life and death is of any indication, TEAR said something like "let's play"?
Actually, that matches her mouth movement in japanese perfectly. (which would be pronounced AH-SO-BO). I think you might be right.
-Tofu
tsurumaru
2004-03-24, 16:27
Hmm, yeah I loved the tuning fork ending.
A couple of points:
The epic of Gilgamesh is one of the worlds oldest stories, part of it deals with the theme of God sending a cleansing flood to wash away the evil of humanity and is very similar to the story of Noah's Ark (and yet written before it).
I liked the way that the child that was a result of love (Kiyoko and Novem's) was victorious over the child that was a result of envy and jealousy (Tear & The Countesses heart).
I have a feeling that Kiyoko's child was still bound to Kiyoko's spirit in someway and that it therefore understood the selfish nature of TEAR and what it had enacted in the world (basically it "played" a big game with everyones lives).
That Reiko part was odd though, I thought (s)he had more power than the rest of them put together, so why didn't she fight?
Why didn't Reiko fight? Fear, maybe. I'm sort of curious about why Fuu, Fujisaki, Tohru, Reiko, and Tatsuya lacked metamorphosis forms.
I thought about the ending segment some more, and I came to the conclusion that it is supposed to be the world. If you watch when Tatsuya talks to his father, he mentions that Kiyoko is dead, to which Terumichi replies something along the lines of "and that will be the start of a new humanity" - if he were referring to Kiyoko there, or Kiyoko reborn (since supposedly the fetus had begun to fuse with Kiyoko - this makes sense, as well, since Kiyoko's spirit was seen drifting away with Tatsuya's, meaning that yes, she was dead, and now she's left with her brother). Though the scene settings of the final scene represent that death-type place Kiyoko experienced, it is most likely Earth. For one, the caccoon-like encasing on Kiyoko was shown.
I think that the final scene is meant to be ironic. I mean, here you have the Gilgamesh group attempting to "purify" humanity, saying that humanity is unclean on the grounds that they're violent, among other things. Then, in the final scene, we have humanity reborn, but it's just as violent as previous humanity, if not more so (gauging from Kiyoko reborn/Kiyoko's child's expression of glee at the killing of Tear). I say irony, because it's obviously not the outcome expected by the Gilgamesh group, and it's obviously not the expected outcome of Tear (who was manipulating the Gilgamesh group as well), since we see Tear's eyes widen in surprise before she's killed.
Though the view that Novem and Kiyoko's child of love defeated a child born of jealousy (Tear) that someone mentioned above is a pretty neat notion as well.
SketchyMcChips
2004-03-24, 20:55
Why didn't Reiko fight? Fear, maybe. I'm sort of curious about why Fuu, Fujisaki, Tohru, Reiko, and Tatsuya lacked metamorphosis forms.
I thought about the ending segment some more, and I came to the conclusion that it is supposed to be the world. If you watch when Tatsuya talks to his father, he mentions that Kiyoko is dead, to which Terumichi replies something along the lines of "and that will be the start of a new humanity" - if he were referring to Kiyoko there, or Kiyoko reborn (since supposedly the fetus had begun to fuse with Kiyoko - this makes sense, as well, since Kiyoko's spirit was seen drifting away with Tatsuya's, meaning that yes, she was dead, and now she's left with her brother). Though the scene settings of the final scene represent that death-type place Kiyoko experienced, it is most likely Earth. For one, the caccoon-like encasing on Kiyoko was shown.
I think that the final scene is meant to be ironic. I mean, here you have the Gilgamesh group attempting to "purify" humanity, saying that humanity is unclean on the grounds that they're violent, among other things. Then, in the final scene, we have humanity reborn, but it's just as violent as previous humanity, if not more so (gauging from Kiyoko reborn/Kiyoko's child's expression of glee at the killing of Tear). I say irony, because it's obviously not the outcome expected by the Gilgamesh group, and it's obviously not the expected outcome of Tear (who was manipulating the Gilgamesh group as well), since we see Tear's eyes widen in surprise before she's killed.
Though the view that Novem and Kiyoko's child of love defeated a child born of jealousy (Tear) that someone mentioned above is a pretty neat notion as well.
I think that Reiko didn't fight because he didn't understand what he was fighting for - though you could understand why he might be frightened by the metamorphosed gilgamesh.
Although the ending was a little short(considering all the fighting in the series isn't it a little convenient that everyone gets killed in a big final battle??) I did like the bleakness and uncertainty that the whole series seemed to convey.
There are so many angles to the ending, i think i'm still processing them all myself so i can't post too much more at the moment - i think it might be worthwhile watching again to see if i can make some more judgements on it :)
FromageTheDog
2004-03-24, 22:03
For starter, I think we can try to discuss some specific questions about the ending that we feel some difficulty understanding... like, why Reiko had that awesome power to kill all Gilgamesh instantly...
Mere speculation, but my guess would be that her template (the old man; and BTW, is that right? Reiko's really a guy? Or did I miss the joke?), having funded most of the research from the very beginning, had her tweaked in vitro with whatever knowledge they were able to come up with to that point. I'd say it was pretty well established earlier on that she (he? Reiko, anyway) was one of the dramatically more powerful examples of a dynamis-user.
What I wonder is, what's the point of the Gilgamesh-lings at all? Other than to destroy Turangarila [sp], they didn't seem to serve much purpose other than for the cool factor. Everyone seemed just about powerless to do anything about the sky falling (I love that imagery, by the way), so other than to facilitate stuff blowing up and the occasional visits from the Brat police, they seem contrived.
Oh, and I think that killing TEAR/God with a tuning fork scene at the very end is absolutely fantastic :cool:
...Yeah, but there's that disturbing little laugh at the end which makes it all end on a rather discordant note... :(
Thanks for a considered response to my admittedly unfair initial outburst...
- Fromage
let me be the first to say, that ending fucking sucked.. i dont CARE how much biblical thingies there are and how "deep" it actually is.. they absolutely ruined it in the last 2 eps.. i mean " hey i dunno how i want to story to progress, oh wait lets just kill everyone and leave tons of "wakaranai's(sp)" in the story"
BLEH
kanazuchi
2004-03-25, 01:55
I thought the ending was awesome, but I hated it at the same time. If that gets me down, I wonder what Saikano'g gonna do to me when I get around to watching it...
let me be the first to say, that ending fucking sucked.. i dont CARE how much biblical thingies there are and how "deep" it actually is..
Differences of opinion, I suppose. Some people like their anime to be completely laid out, everything explained, totally clear. Others like trifling through symbolism and trying to fill in the holes themselves. At the least, it does lead to some interesting conversations that would otherwise just be idle commentary.
Yes, episode 26 was a rush, but I didn't feel like it felt forced or rushed at all. Despite how screwed up it is, I think it's one of the most beautifully done anime episodes I've ever seen, and I must have rewatched it some three or four times now.
Despite the poor graphic (the reason why many turned down this at the very beginning), the only thing I can say about it is: BLOODY BRILLIANT! and I'm glad I did put my faith on it when it was first released and stick to it to the very end.
BRAVO!
First I thought TEAR was not a physical thing but more like a spirit thing since it looks like a shining light in a shape of a girl. Then you have Kiyoko's child stabbed 'her' with the tuning fork and blood came out. Hmmm....
I remember it quite clearly- it was somewhere back around episode 7-9
She said that Gilgamesh was not a person or thing but instead, time.
Maybe I'm crazy, but if so then I've been crazy for a long time- i had been waiting for a response to that comment
I remember something about Gilgamesh being 'matter' and 'anti-matter'??? o.O Not that I know what that means...
Grifis
ok, that's it...I will look for the episode that supports my claim tonight...
and if I don't find it I'll run away with my tail between my legs
SketchyMcChips
2004-03-25, 12:52
I remember something about Gilgamesh being 'matter' and 'anti-matter'??? o.O Not that I know what that means...
Grifis
Yeah - i'm pretty sure The Countess explains them as being anti-matter which needs to be tied to matter particles to be able to exist in our universe. (Which isn't grounded in good science as matter particles and their antimatter counterparts would annihilate each other and just release energy)
tsurumaru
2004-03-25, 13:15
First I thought TEAR was not a physical thing but more like a spirit thing since it looks like a shining light in a shape of a girl. Then you have Kiyoko's child stabbed 'her' with the tuning fork and blood came out. Hmmm....
Hmm Thats why I assumed that the child form of TEAR that appeared in Kiyoko's "dream world*" (who looked awfully like a young version of the Countesses body) was a physical incarnation of TEAR (and as such a child of TEAR and the Countesses heart).
*Actually it just occured to me that perhaps this dream world was the alternative dimension located within Delphis (the cave in Gilgameshes tomb) That way the cleansing flood would destroy all life on Earth whilst the cocoon containing Kiyoko/Novems child would be safe in this alternative dimension ready to "Leave" and rejoin the world one day.
I liked the way that the child that was a result of love (Kiyoko and Novem's) was victorious over the child that was a result of envy and jealousy (Tear & The Countesses heart).
I have a feeling that Kiyoko's child was still bound to Kiyoko's spirit in someway and that it therefore understood the selfish nature of TEAR and what it had enacted in the world (basically it "played" a big game with everyones lives).
That Reiko part was odd though, I thought (s)he had more power than the rest of them put together, so why didn't she fight?
Hmm.. In the anime Kiyoko and Novem's relationship was a kind of love, but didn't he rape her in the manga?
The tuning fork thing had to happen in anycase. I kept waiting for _something_ to happen around that thing because they kept including it, from episode 1. It's a writer's rule. Someone, I think Hemmingway, said: "If you are describing a room and you say there's a rifle over the fireplace mantle, that rifle had better go off at some point in your story."
Satisfaction.
Za Paper
2004-03-25, 15:47
Just saw the whole thing and I have to just say WOW! This is definitely one of the most underrated animes of the year. I have to write this now while everything is still fresh in my mind.
I noticed the "Gilgamesh is time" misunderstanding in ep 8. At 18:55 the countess says Gilgamesh isnt "people" then she says right after "It's time". What she was really saying was that Gilgamesh arent human and the "It's time" part referred to that it was time for Kiyoko to leave the hotel. The two sentences ran together so I could see how some people could misinterpret them.
I thought the end with the tuner was great. I thought it could mean that Kiyoko gets revenge on TEAR, the countess, for trying to take her man.
Was Kazamatsuri Dr Enma's son? She mentioned she got pregnant but she seems to be pretty young. Kazamatsuri also had the same colored eyes.
Hi everyone,
First of all i like to start with the idea of the Heavy Metal ''cartoon'' and the Star Gate (MacGyverSeries) idea. If you can remember in the Heavy Metal comics and Movies there is a black Sphere and that is the absolute Evil in physikal form, travelling through universe and bringing evil to every World it comes. The Star-Gate (similar to Heavens-Gate)idea is that Gilgamesh half Human half God(Alien) got punished for something he does greedy for eternal life etc. So something between these two ideas will explain things to me. Like the Hollywood Movie Sphere where the fear becomes real through an alien thing,machine, spiritual something....
So if you imagine that some higher Liveforms, even angles or God itself,sealed Gilgamesh and his believes
in this so called tomb (also named as womb in 25 or 26). When the Humans opened it, the spirit that lies in it with its childish behavior (maybe the rebirth, resurrection, new chance of and for Gilgamesh) was freed to early. it was supposed to come out by itself and not with that greedy intentions of an old man
seeking eternal life.
This powerful spirit does the job it originally have to do but the people it met outside were not ready for what to come. Maybe what happend (to bring Humanity on a higher ,spiritual Level) would be easier if the world was more kind.
sorry for my bad english writing skills.
I also want to say that Fuu-Chan deserved a better end. *sniff*
all my thoughts above are not to well developed but i think the truth lies somewhere in that direction. And i think it will be very hard to explain the thing that happend in that series with words clearly.
someone mentioned the manga, could you please post one single side of it so we (i) can see what it look like :)
bye bye
One question I had was the relationship of the Gilgamesh to Enkidu. They seem to have been born from him in a way, since the dynamis that flowed through him and Tatsuya also flowed through the gilgamesh, which was evident by how that wierd machine affected them all, and no one else.
Also, speaking of that wierd machine... it seemed to me to release some sort of sound frequency... did anyone else feel that way? It seemed interesting, since sound played such a big part of this series with the tuning fork and all.
edit: Once last thing... what part do you think the "old man" (president) played in the Gliglamesh fable? Just trying to figure out Rieko's unexpected powers which was evident through out the series.
Just some thoughts to hopefully spark some discussion.
lubufengxian
2004-03-25, 19:19
I must say I was slightly perturbed by the ending. That is not to say I only enjoy happy (go lucky nobody dies everyone wins oops all of our conflict was a misunderstanding let's make love) endings. I have enjoyed EVA, Bebop, Shinget Hime.
I do worry that I might not have understood the ending, therefore I was hoping someone could help me understand the few questions I had.
1. Why was everyone at the mansion at the end?
2. Why was it necessary to kill off the clones?
3. It seems that Tear used everyone to try to wipe out humanity? Why? I never felt like the show tried to potray Humanity as terribly evil, so what made TEAR feel justified in the destruction?
4. Violence... war and destruction. It seems like this is all TEAR had accomplished, apart from endowing select people full of Dynamis. These people, if they were supposed to represent a future evolutionary path, why could they get defeated by whatever the random machine was, coded to Madoka's genetic pattern? With a bit more work (information on all the Giglameshes DNA), Science could trump Dynamis everytime. So why even bother with the whole evolution thing?
5. Timescale- Why not just send down the cleansing flood from the beginning? Why have shelting sky at all? If the clones could be trouble, why not kill them when they were near birth? Why did Madoka at first want to get his children on his side, but then decided to kill them later? I.E. What made the children important enough to capture, and what made it okay to kill them later? At what point did they become dispensible?
6. Timescale, cont. TEAR corrupted all the clones at birth, right? So why don't the clones obey TEAR the way the orignals and the gilgamesh all seem to? If the clones could be trouble, why not just kill the clones at the beginning?
I felt the last two episodes had more interesting material than half the series of foppish angst between people unable to communicate. That last episode could have been a mini-series alone... alas. Maybe if I watch it again, all at once, I'll see the connections more clearly.
dreamless
2004-03-25, 22:02
I think sound really plays an important part in the series. When Enkidu "bestows power" upon those Gilgamesh raiding that tower, it's also in the form of that short music.
To try to answer some of the questions...
1. obviously to bring an end to TEAR's game
2. it's just TEAR's game, so they fight each other.
3. it seems it's because TEAR is affected by the Countess' jealousy and angst so it decided that humans are wrong evolution.
6. You could say that the clones also obeyed TEAR, in the form of the Countess. TEAR and Countess basically share the same heart, and it's a game between them, fighting each other with clones and Gilgamesh.
5. Obviously the Cleansing Flood can only be send down after the game between TEAR and Countess is finished. So the end is called "gil games night".
For the people that get into mythology, I've heard of a parallel drawn between the Countess and the goddess Ishtar from the Gilgamesh epic. Swiped from another message board:
1) No one seems to have mentioned this yet, so I will. There is a direct connection between using the Countess as the influence of TEAR and the epic of Gilgamesh. In fact, they were setting us up for this all the way from the start. If we look back at Ep 1, Original Tohru was telling the Countess about Ishtar, stressing, specifically, that she was the goddess of "love, luxury and war." He also mentioned, as a joke, that all women were like that. Ishtar is mentioned in the epic of Gilgamesh here (http://inanna.virtualave.net/gilgamesh.html).
2) Continuing the above, the Countess, if we look carefully at her, she does in this series represent "love, luxury and war." She collects the clones out for memories, because she needed their love. She is a mother to them, which is what Episode 25's feelings represented. Luxury is pretty self-explanatory. Kazamatsuri is the one to actually rub in the point about war when he says that regardless of who won, they would both be regarded as war criminals for dragging children into a war. She is at war, with Gilgamesh (and Enkidu), for everything that she lost.
3) Where Ishtar ties in with the plot. The Countess is a person who has lost both her past lovers. First, it was Enkidu, then it was the Count. In the extract from Gilgamesh in 1), notice that Gilgamesh is basically telling Ishtar what a lousy rep she has with her lovers. Everyone who loves her suffers and dies. It's kind of her destiny, and that's what the Countess does. It's her destiny, and the point of killing everything she ever loved in the final battle was to make her accept that fate. TEAR is a manifestation of her jealousy and anger at being spurned. She has to come to terms with it in order for the world to return to balance, and the unfortunate thing here is that her only means of doing that is to hammer the final nail into the one other thing left that she loved: the world.
Makes sense, in a way...
dreamless
2004-03-26, 00:46
Hmm.. In the anime Kiyoko and Novem's relationship was a kind of love, but didn't he rape her in the manga?
I thought the manga is a VERY old one which the anime barely resembles...
I noticed the "Gilgamesh is time" misunderstanding in ep 8. At 18:55 the countess says Gilgamesh isnt "people" then she says right after "It's time". What she was really saying was that Gilgamesh arent human and the "It's time" part referred to that it was time for Kiyoko to leave the hotel. The two sentences ran together so I could see how some people could misinterpret them.
LOL
Thanks, Za Paper, for clearing that up- I'm not losing my mind- I just misinterpreted a couple of poorly juxtaposed lines. (no, really, I have no excuse)
I'm glad I misinterpreted those lines- it made things more mysterious even than they already were.
harudasakurada
2004-03-26, 20:04
Wow, I loved the ending as much as the rest of the show... definitely one of the most underrated shows.
I think I got most of it, but I do have some questions/thoughts about it.
1. Was Reiko really a guy, or was it just some joke I didn't get? If I recall correctly, somebody did say something to the effect of "They thought Reiko was his clone" in a sarcastic tone, so was s(he)? Or am I just totally missing something/hearing dialogue that was never said?
2. Allright, Kiyoko's child was the new humanity or something to that effect, right? Then why was she able to kill TEAR with such ease? I mean, I know it's TEAR and all that, but her expression at the very end made it seemed like she enjoyed the act she had done. I thought she was supposed to be some ideal human-like creature, not something exactly like what had just been wiped out... So if humanity does return, wouldn't it take a similar path as before, making everything somewhat useless?
3. I'm still wondering how Reiko got those ultra powers.
And, despite what I said above, I still love the tuning fork scene!
Wow, I loved the ending as much as the rest of the show... definitely one of the most underrated shows.
I think I got most of it, but I do have some questions/thoughts about it.
1. Was Reiko really a guy, or was it just some joke I didn't get? If I recall correctly, somebody did say something to the effect of "They thought Reiko was his clone" in a sarcastic tone, so was s(he)? Or am I just totally missing something/hearing dialogue that was never said?
2. Allright, Kiyoko's child was the new humanity or something to that effect, right? Then why was she able to kill TEAR with such ease? I mean, I know it's TEAR and all that, but her expression at the very end made it seemed like she enjoyed the act she had done. I thought she was supposed to be some ideal human-like creature, not something exactly like what had just been wiped out... So if humanity does return, wouldn't it take a similar path as before, making everything somewhat useless?
3. I'm still wondering how Reiko got those ultra powers.
And, despite what I said above, I still love the tuning fork scene!
1. Reiko was a guy, apparently. I thought Reiko was the clone of the Countess, but no, he was the clone of that old man whom he gave his eyes to. If they never said it straight out, they basically did when they said that he (Reiko) gave his eyes to the old man, and that in order to be able to do that their genetics had to be identical. Why was Reiko ultra-powerful? It was also mentioned that the old man's link to Delphys and the Heaven's Gate project wasn't because he was a scientist, it was because he funded it, and the reason he funded it was because he was seeking immortality. You can take any theory you want from that: either his desires manifested somewhat in how TEAR polluted the embryo that would become Reiko, or perhaps he funded some way to boost Reiko's power (less likely, since they didn't know dynamis existed before XX... but who knows). When Kazamatsuri says "they mistook him for the old man"... no idea.
2. Welcome to the irony of the series. The ending was supposed to be messed up, not happy. Why would a new, beautiful humanity be born after all that? No, the series creators had this in mind. We have the epic struggle of the series, followed by the bloodshed and killing of the final battle/episode. The reason for the struggle, as you said, was because the Gilgamesh side felt that humanity was impure and needed to have its negative traits, such as violence, cleansed. What better way to do it than to start from scratch, as it were? This may have also been something of a desire of Tear, who was manipulating the Gilgamesh side. So it comes to pass, and we have the new humanity born from the embryo that fused with Kiyoko. Tear approaches it, expecting it to be ideal. Instead, the "new humanity" is just as violent - if not moreso - than the previous humanity. This is evident not only by the fact that the new humanity kills Tear, but the method of death and the fact that she obviously finds it amusing. Tear obviously doesn't expect it either, approaching the new humanity with a smile, and then right before she dies, her eyes widen in shock as she realizes what's going on. She can't believe it's happening. So not only did she destroy everything as it was before, but she made it worse, and her own creation kills her. Can you say nice going, genius? It's ironic.
3. Woops, answered this one in part 1. My own question is why didn't the Countess' children and Reiko have a metamorphosis form, but it's most likely some other deep thing to discuss, ie, the Gilgamesh clones were aligned with Tear, who represented the darker side of the human heart, and their transformations were a physical manifestation of that... or something. All speculation.
lubufengxian
2004-03-27, 00:14
Ah, thanks to all who helped me clear up the misconceptions. I'll re evaluate things and perhaps not watch the anime at four in the morning, when my cognitive powers cease to function.
harudasakurada
2004-03-27, 11:16
1. Reiko was a guy, apparently. I thought Reiko was the clone of the Countess, but no, he was the clone of that old man whom he gave his eyes to. If they never said it straight out, they basically did when they said that he (Reiko) gave his eyes to the old man, and that in order to be able to do that their genetics had to be identical. Why was Reiko ultra-powerful? It was also mentioned that the old man's link to Delphys and the Heaven's Gate project wasn't because he was a scientist, it was because he funded it, and the reason he funded it was because he was seeking immortality. You can take any theory you want from that: either his desires manifested somewhat in how TEAR polluted the embryo that would become Reiko, or perhaps he funded some way to boost Reiko's power (less likely, since they didn't know dynamis existed before XX... but who knows). When Kazamatsuri says "they mistook him for the old man"... no idea.
2. Welcome to the irony of the series. The ending was supposed to be messed up, not happy. Why would a new, beautiful humanity be born after all that? No, the series creators had this in mind. We have the epic struggle of the series, followed by the bloodshed and killing of the final battle/episode. The reason for the struggle, as you said, was because the Gilgamesh side felt that humanity was impure and needed to have its negative traits, such as violence, cleansed. What better way to do it than to start from scratch, as it were? This may have also been something of a desire of Tear, who was manipulating the Gilgamesh side. So it comes to pass, and we have the new humanity born from the embryo that fused with Kiyoko. Tear approaches it, expecting it to be ideal. Instead, the "new humanity" is just as violent - if not moreso - than the previous humanity. This is evident not only by the fact that the new humanity kills Tear, but the method of death and the fact that she obviously finds it amusing. Tear obviously doesn't expect it either, approaching the new humanity with a smile, and then right before she dies, her eyes widen in shock as she realizes what's going on. She can't believe it's happening. So not only did she destroy everything as it was before, but she made it worse, and her own creation kills her. Can you say nice going, genius? It's ironic.
3. Woops, answered this one in part 1. My own question is why didn't the Countess' children and Reiko have a metamorphosis form, but it's most likely some other deep thing to discuss, ie, the Gilgamesh clones were aligned with Tear, who represented the darker side of the human heart, and their transformations were a physical manifestation of that... or something. All speculation.
Allright, thanks for the explanations. I think I understand the ending better now... feels somewhat more desolate and hopeless (not that that's a bad thing).
As for your own question, I always thought the Gilgamesh were somehow... less human than the Countess' children and Reiko. It probably has something to do with TEAR. If it's got something to do with a pure physical manifestation of what TEAR represented, or simply a physical sort of 'ability' they had, I do not know.
One thing that i liked about this annime was that it kinda from the start was like a mindpuzzle. I always had to think about how exactly the characters were linked to one another.
I guess thats why i absolutely never had the impression that there was some sort of center (or one special main hero) to it. I specially liked the role that fuu and fujisaki played.
I sure was down when she got killed at the end. Especially when she said she was glad to have met tatsuya accompanied by that last sweet sneeze as she gets ripped by the gilgamesh. Goddamn how brutal is that!! :(
Which made me think of something. Does'nt it seem that the clones have also completely inherited their originals' (human) personalities? Fujisaki's original in one episode gets drunk inside heaven's gate because the countess got engaged - while the real fujisaki in another episode makes a similar statement of affection towards the countess. Then Fuu's original has a sneezing attack while watching madoka terumich play the piano (she even says the signatur line) which we know the real fuuko got when she was in love with tatsuya. Same thing goes for tohru, i guess.
Another thing i happened to notice is, that if tear was summoned by feelings of unrequited love. It can't be that it is only the countess who accounts for tear but the whole lot of them. (Does that make any sense to you guys?? :) )
(OH and btw did anyone but me feel sad for kazamatsuri-san? it seemed like he was the sole decisive defender of mankind to me. kinda set me up what happened at the end, since i thought that he had some more ace up his sleeve)
Tofusensei
2004-03-27, 18:05
Kazamatsuri-san = Agent Smith! :D
-Tofu
dreamless
2004-03-27, 20:46
I can't understand how Kazamatsuri can stay so calm thinking he's winning all this time...
LinChoiSin
2004-03-27, 21:16
i love the final and i really love this show my only regret is that it's not longer.Is it me or the real Gilgamesh (the half -god)didn't have an important role (except for the name of the show) i'm under the impression that the connections with the legenf itself weren't that great .
Tofusensei
2004-03-27, 22:18
i love the final and i really love this show my only regret is that it's not longer.Is it me or the real Gilgamesh (the half -god)didn't have an important role (except for the name of the show) i'm under the impression that the connections with the legenf itself weren't that great .
Yeah, you sorta have to dig for them to find them... I wonder if the producers planned it that way or that's just how it ended up.
-Tofu
i love the final and i really love this show my only regret is that it's not longer.Is it me or the real Gilgamesh (the half -god)didn't have an important role (except for the name of the show) i'm under the impression that the connections with the legenf itself weren't that great .
I agree with you that the myth got kinda losely integrated into the whole plot.
:thinker: But then again the main plots of both circle around the same thing. Human want to become immortal and thus leaving behind their true nature.
Then there's the cleansing flood which turns the sumerian creational myth (the world began when sky and earth seperated) upside down.
The hullupu tree of the myth (planted in uruk who symbolizes likewise wisdom and life) turns up as the heaven's gate building (does look like a tree without its top doesnt it?) and in kiyokos dream.
I guess the problem most people have (and i do aswell) is that which character actually is gilgamesh's equivalent. Is it the elder Yuuki? That Sure is probable since he's the one to seek immortality and Madoka/Enkidu seems to be friends with him (that is why he could join the scientist corps at Heaven's gate).
So what ya think? :help:
That goes for all of you :) i think the depths of this grand anime deserve one more dive or another, don't you?
LinChoiSin
2004-03-28, 17:51
i feel like we don't have enough informations about the older Yuuki,he's supposed to be very important but we barely saw him in the anime ,to me it's almost the same thing that with the barbem character in "rahxephon".In fact we have a lot more informations on Kazatsuki(who's also an interesting character btw).
dreamless
2004-03-28, 19:07
well, that old man Yuuki wants eternal life... I guess that's enough to know already...
well, that old man Yuuki wants eternal life... I guess that's enough to know already...
Well thats even before he met Enkidu i guess. Or is it not?
The myth says that Gilgamesh wanted to gain immortality after Enkidu died. That does not fit too properly (actually it doesn't fit at all) :(
Then Enkidu was made by the gods to rival Gilgamesh's superhuman powers. So where does that fit in?
O well and then what lin said is true after all: there's not too much info concerning yuuki - so why is he so not of concern? Even though he is the dramatical center of the plot since he got the drama started?
keep on puzzling :) ,
- Vidar
Prince of Chronics
2004-03-29, 15:03
I can't understand how Kazamatsuri can stay so calm thinking he's winning all this time...
cuz he's badass... he was one of my favorite characters in this show...
to get back on topic... I really liked how this show ended... it was confusing at times with all the scientific lingo they were using... it was weird at times with the whole incest thingy... but the nice plot and characters made it an entertaining show... the Blattaria and the members of Gilgamesh were all awesome characters...
I like endings where everyone gets killed in the end... cuz it's an aberation from standard anime endings...
Wicked Child
2004-03-29, 20:12
Everyone seems to have the consensus that Reiko was the old man Yuuki's clone, not only in opinino but by statement in the show. However, when the boy gave ups his eyes it seemed to me that the one to benefit from it was actually Kazamatsuri. I could very well be wrong with this though so don't mind me.
When Reiko dies, doesn't Kazamatsuri say something to the effect that Gilgamesh were wrong in their thinking that the boy was the old man's clone? Or am I mistaken again?
On a different note someone had previously mentioned that the Countess represented Ishtar and I have to agree. Whenever they rehashed the epic in the show I was given the impression that her character was supposed to be like that of Ishtar. Either way I found the Countess to be nothing more than a coward in rich clothing. That and I think she used her butler for more than normal butler duties. :naughty:
I too am curious to know why Terumichi's children were important then dispensible. Unless their entire role was just in helping bring about the end result of the Cleansing Flood. I don't know, I got the feeling that Terumichi had been somehow seduced by TEAR or possessed because he resembled nothing of his former self.
You people have brought up a lot of things to mull over. However I'm still upset at all the speculation. I think things that I have to think about too but in the end I want to know the real answer, not my own possible misguided belief.
Although considering that everyone who either fell in love or had sex died I think the real moral of the story is: don't have sex or fall in love or you'll die.:joke: Really I am.
dreamless
2004-03-29, 22:33
When Reiko dies, doesn't Kazamatsuri say something to the effect that Gilgamesh were wrong in their thinking that the boy was the old man's clone
I think it's something like Gilgamesh mistake Reiko for old man Yuuki... but still that doesn't make much sense...
whatever123
2004-03-30, 08:37
i very disturbing ending
anyways my interpretation of the end is that when TEAR took a look into the countess, madoka et all... hearts it realized how corrupted humanity was so it took control over madoka in order to destroy this world and recreat it thus in the end when everyone realized it was TEARs game and they were all manipulated to the point of no return they all played along till the end of the world what TEAR never had in mind was the lingering feelings left in kyoko/kyoko childs heart which caused its destruction
thus the idea of the series is humanity is very ugly but if you try to destroy it and rebuild it will only leads to more ugliness
anywas a better explanation could be made by people who read the manga so feel free to explain
also a question is the manga licensed?
tsurumaru
2004-03-30, 12:34
Just to clear up a couple of points:
It is explained that Reiko-chan is a clone of the old man when reference is made to the fact that only someone with extremely close DNA could have contributed their eye's.
Also as far as I understood Kazamatsuri-san said "Looks like they've mistaken him for the old man" (About Gilgamesh attacking Reiko).
It is possible that all the Gilgameshlings suddenly turned stupid and didn't realise that since there were clones of Enkidu in Tatsuya and the other clones that there could be a clone of the old man, but this seems unlikely.
I believe that because of these two contrasting statements that Reiko might actually have been the old man himself in the end, and that the old man had assumed his younger clones body (in his ongoing quest for immortality) and was just playing a game too. I mean I sat through the last few episodes thinking that something about Reiko didn't seem right at all (apart from the fact "she" was actually a guy).
Also was the old man sick enough to be having relations with his younger clone? (Perhaps I've seen too much Anime incest...... :heh:)
Here's another few questions for you, just before Kazamatsuri is shot by the countess he says "Time for us to leave" Who's he talking to and where did he think he could escape to that was free of the cleansing flood (which was fairly obvious by then).
Although considering that everyone who either fell in love or had sex died I think the real moral of the story is: don't have sex or fall in love or you'll die.:joke: Really I am.
Though I don't like the idea... you're right to some extent. The whole story is circling around love and life. Turned down love and worthless life, that is. The only happy couple there is in the whole story is Terumichi and Azusa (Tatsuya's and Kiyoko's mother).
(Btw does anyone know the meaning of the first kanji in terumichi (teru)? I kinda have the impression that some clues to the whole thing are hidden in the naming of the characters)
- Vidar
Bullsquat
2004-03-30, 13:23
Oh, wow and I initially thought this series was gonna suck. I took me a while to get through the first 8 episodes but I went on just see what happens to Kiyoko because I really feel for her. I'm so glad I didn't quit on this series. I virtually saw the remaining 18 episodes in one night and I have yet to sleep! Here I am at campus half asleep and having a major case of migraine and I still can't get this show out of my head. Prolly not for a while either.
People may complain about the animation. I didn't like it at first. But I grew to like it and it does get better as the show progresses. Also I think Kiyoko is a drawn beautifully. She was meant to be pretty and you can really see the difference between her and other female characters. Most shows have the characters looking like each other that you can't really tell.
One thing I'm still wondering about and I'm not sure if its been answered already coz at this moment, I can't really process everything written on this thread into my head. Who is Kiyoko really in love with? I really much rather if it was Novem. I know his little brother loves her in the taboo sort of way and I really want to believe that Kiyoko only loves him as a brother. I mean anything more would be wrong for two reasons. First, obviously its her brother. Second, he's also a clone of her father which means its also like falling in love with her father.
Can't think of anything else right now. Well, can't think much clearly either. Only thing in my head is Kiyoko. I got a quiz tomorrow too.
Anyway, one of the best shows I ever seen.
LinChoiSin
2004-03-30, 17:15
One thing I'm still wondering about and I'm not sure if its been answered already coz at this moment, I can't really process everything written on this thread into my head. Who is Kiyoko really in love with? I really much rather if it was Novem. I know his little brother loves her in the taboo sort of way and I really want to believe that Kiyoko only loves him as a brother. I mean anything more would be wrong for two reasons. First, obviously its her brother. Second, he's also a clone of her father which means its also like falling in love with her father.
it may not be clear but it seems to me that Kiyoko loves her brother in a different way than just as a brother though it's very difficult to confirm this impression because there were also hints implying that she loved him as a brother .I don't think that "right" , "wrong" or "taboo" can be applied in this show!
Also I think Kiyoko is a drawn beautifully. She was meant to be pretty and you can really see the difference between her and other female characters. Most shows have the characters looking like each other that you can't really tell.
One thing I'm still wondering about and I'm not sure if its been answered already coz at this moment, I can't really process everything written on this thread into my head. Who is Kiyoko really in love with? I really much rather if it was Novem. I know his little brother loves her in the taboo sort of way and I really want to believe that Kiyoko only loves him as a brother. I mean anything more would be wrong for two reasons. First, obviously its her brother. Second, he's also a clone of her father which means its also like falling in love with her father.
Can't think of anything else right now. Well, can't think much clearly either. Only thing in my head is Kiyoko. I got a quiz tomorrow too.
Anyway, one of the best shows I ever seen.
I think Kiyoko is a very likable character. In fact she's my favorite character. The way I see it, Kiyoko loves her brother dearly but only sees him as her beloved little brother (whereas she loves Novem as a man). Her brother, on the other hand, loves her like the way their dad loved their mom (because Tatsuya was a clone of their father and took on the same attraction/emotion.)
Grifis
dreamless
2004-03-30, 19:49
Kiyoko loves both her brother and Novem.
Here's another few questions for you, just before Kazamatsuri is shot by the countess he says "Time for us to leave" Who's he talking to and where did he think he could escape to that was free of the cleansing flood
He's just talking to himself, obviously he thought he had won the war and saved humanity as he had captured TEAR. I guess with TEAR being captured there's a way to stop Cleansing Flood... Well we could never know now that he's shot :(
Does anyone know the recurrant music themes?
Right now im trying hard to figure them out since i think that the element of sound is a central thing in Gilgamesh (the tuning fork is a symbol for that).
- Greetz, Vidar
What's up you people. Did this thread loosen?? :twitch:
anyway,
in case any future generation will dig this out :) (and to answer my own question :( )
i'm proud to announce i've found out about the moving piano theme which is played throughout Gilgamesh a lot. It's the marvellous 5th(and last) piano concerto of Ludwig van Beethoven, 2nd movement adagio un pocco mosso.
Thanks to myself,
Good night.
lynne_huang
2004-04-01, 17:00
Does anyone know the recurrant music themes?
Right now im trying hard to figure them out since i think that the element of sound is a central thing in Gilgamesh (the tuning fork is a symbol for that).
- Greetz, Vidar
Well the tuning fork used in the show was pitched at 440Hz - 'A'. (There're other kinds of tuning forks pitched at other frequencies, but this is the most common one.)
The tune that Kiyoko and Novem hummed (can't remember which episode it was, the part where the water was dripping from the faucet.. the one where she rescued Novem):it oughta be 'E A1 B1 G1 D E' though i think im missing one note, i can't really remember. the number '1' denotes that those pitches are above E.
I don't know if this makes a difference, but those pitches make up a pentatonic scale starting on G <G A B D E>. Although I see it more as a slightly undefined E minor triad. Pentatonic scales are commonly thought as... you know .. 'oriental'... 'exotic' etc etc. From a music student's point of view anyway. From my very scanty knowledge of Jap traditional music, pentatonic scales are used predominantly in their music.
This is a wild guess, but maybe the producers used the pentatonic-scale theme to contrast it against the Beethoven concerto, to show another level of conflict. Gilgamesh vs Novem and co (clones vs clones). Countess against TEAR (essentially fighting herself). European (generally anyway) music vs Jap traditional music.
I think i'm getting too carried away.
Anyway, the 'theme' song they use (as mentioned above) is Beethoven's Piano Concerto #5 in E-flat major, also commonly known as the 'Emperor' Concerto. (Gilgamesh - half god/king/emperor?) Anyway what's weird is they used the 2nd movement, not at all heroic and majestic like the 1st or the 3rd. This is why I hesitate to bring up the 'Emperor' connection as I feel that if the producers truly wanted to bring that out, they'd use the 1st/3rd, and not the slow 2nd mvt.
Did anyone note how smooth the transition of the music was at the end of ep26? From the scene of the destruction of the world to Tatsuya's last moments of consciousness? it flowed from the B major Beethoven movement to a Johann-Straussian-like waltz in G major, via the use of a common/pivot note: B. (B is an important and fundamental note in both keys.)
Okay I hope at least someone understands what I just posted.
NoSanninWa
2004-04-01, 18:43
Maybe they used the least majestic of the movements of the Emperor's Concerto specifically to point out that this Gilgamesh was a failed emperor. Or perhaps an emperor in hiding? Or maybe because he was actually a pawn of Tear, not an emperor in control of destiny.
Za Paper
2004-04-02, 00:27
The Merry Widow waltz was used effectively whenever the Countess appeared.
dreamless
2004-04-02, 01:00
Hmm... the main "theme" music of Gilgamesh? do you mean the short piano theme with only several notes that plays whenever Enkidu exert his power or in the memory of young Kiyoko?
Za Paper
2004-04-02, 01:37
Hmm... the main "theme" music of Gilgamesh? do you mean the short piano theme with only several notes that plays whenever Enkidu exert his power or in the memory of young Kiyoko?
The Merry Widow Waltz by Franz Lehar plays in a few eps. I remember it in one of young Kiyoko's memories in ep 24, also in ep 25 when the group is taking photos. IIRC, there was an episode titled The Merry Widow.
dreamless
2004-04-02, 02:14
The Merry Widow Waltz by Franz Lehar plays in a few eps. I remember it in one of young Kiyoko's memories in ep 24, also in ep 25 when the group is taking photos. IIRC, there was an episode titled The Merry Widow.
no, that's not what I meant. What I was thinking about was that very very short (about just 4 notes?) clip that plays usually when Kiyoko looks up to the sky and mutters "father?" and when the gilgamesh receives a power-up during the attack of the tower.
The tune that Kiyoko and Novem hummed (can't remember which episode it was, the part where the water was dripping from the faucet.. the one where she rescued Novem):it oughta be 'E A1 B1 G1 D E' though i think im missing one note, i can't really remember. the number '1' denotes that those pitches are above E.
I don't know if this makes a difference, but those pitches make up a pentatonic scale starting on G <G A B D E>. Although I see it more as a slightly undefined E minor triad. Pentatonic scales are commonly thought as... you know .. 'oriental'... 'exotic' etc etc. From a music student's point of view anyway. From my very scanty knowledge of Jap traditional music, pentatonic scales are used predominantly in their music.
This is a wild guess, but maybe the producers used the pentatonic-scale theme to contrast it against the Beethoven concerto, to show another level of conflict. Gilgamesh vs Novem and co (clones vs clones). Countess against TEAR (essentially fighting herself). European (generally anyway) music vs Jap traditional music.
Since i'm not that musically talented i can't really say something about the pentatonic scales. I do know though that heptatonic and pentatonic (even 12-tonic) scales are common for the Chinese and Japanese traditional music.
But hey, :) keep up the good work. Once you've found out tell me.
Anyway, the 'theme' song they use (as mentioned above) is Beethoven's Piano Concerto #5 in E-flat major, also commonly known as the 'Emperor' Concerto. (Gilgamesh - half god/king/emperor?) Anyway what's weird is they used the 2nd movement, not at all heroic and majestic like the 1st or the 3rd. This is why I hesitate to bring up the 'Emperor' connection as I feel that if the producers truly wanted to bring that out, they'd use the 1st/3rd, and not the slow 2nd mvt.
I looked the Beethoven piece up in a concert guide and it read that it was a common mistake to name this piece emperor concerto, since it was not written in favour of an emperor (in that case Napoleon rampaging through Europe) but in dislike. There was a quotation of a Beethoven comment:
"What devastating, rough life around me, nothing but drums, canons, human hardship of all kinds." So i guess you're right.
Another thing is, that this piece is one of the very last ones Beethoven wrote. I guess that speaks for itself. Madoka in the very first episode says: "If this is the end, then that music is perfect"
Did anyone note how smooth the transition of the music was at the end of ep26? From the scene of the destruction of the world to Tatsuya's last moments of consciousness? it flowed from the B major Beethoven movement to a Johann-Straussian-like waltz in G major, via the use of a common/pivot note: B. (B is an important and fundamental note in both keys.)
Yes indeed that sure does give a hint on their linkage to one another. But then again this piece is taken from an opera by Franz Lehar ("The merry Widow") - thanks Za :) - which was written for the amusement of the decadent austrian court society: Which means they contrast pretty strongly!
I myself found this follow up of Beethoven and Lehar quite ironic at first and then somehow reliefing. Got me puzzled you see
There's an episode which is called "Hammerklavier". These are Beethoven's opus 101/106. A female servant plays the piece inside Hotel Providence...
That's what i've found out and thought about...
Keep it up
- Vidar :)
dreamless
2004-04-02, 08:59
oh, so that's called a pentatonic scale... I guess I missed it as I'm not familiar with the musical terms... :p
I found out even more, there obviously is a symphonic composition by a guy called Olliver Messiaen (now that name does fit in :) ) and o wonder it is called Turangalīla Symphony (remember turangalila is prof Enma's experiment to revive the sky)
I read the booklet and it gave me some idea of what turangalila means:
"Turangalīla -
- is a word in Sanskrit. As with all words from ancient oriental languages, its meaning is very rich. 'Līla' literally means play - but play in the sense of the divine acting upon the cosmos, the play of creation, of destruction, of reconstruction [!!!], the play of life and death. 'Līla' is also Love. 'Turanga': this is time that runs, like a galloping horse; this is time that flows, like sand in an hourglass. 'Turanga' is movement and rythm. 'Turangalīla' therefore means all at once love song, hymn to joy, time movement, rhythm, life and death."
I listened to it for a bit, and i think that this symphony recurrs in the episodes concerning the Turangalīla project.
@ lynne: that piece is atonal/ disharmonic (can't say if it's 12-tonic, sry)
Thanks for reading,
Keep up the good work,
- Vidar
Here's an idea. Is it possible that at the end, Kiyoko/Novem daughter BECOMES TEAR? Her expression at the end could be taken as deranged. It could also, however, be the birth of tear within her. She is killing an image of the countess, who obviously wanted to get it on with madoka. Kiyoko anad the countess don't like each other for a number of reasons. Is it possible that this emotion lives in the daughter and thus spawns a new TEAR with the death of the old?
Just an idea i had watching 26 again...probably wrong, but it's fun to hypothesize.
Here's an idea. Is it possible that at the end, Kiyoko/Novem daughter BECOMES TEAR? Her expression at the end could be taken as deranged. It could also, however, be the birth of tear within her. She is killing an image of the countess, who obviously wanted to get it on with madoka. Kiyoko anad the countess don't like each other for a number of reasons. Is it possible that this emotion lives in the daughter and thus spawns a new TEAR with the death of the old?
Just an idea i had watching 26 again...probably wrong, but it's fun to hypothesize.
Keep posting whatever comes to your mind :)
I personally doubt your theory since TEAr was created inside Delphys through the main characters' feelings of unrequited love channeled (thus the name TEAr) by the dimensional portal. So
i don't think there's any analogy to that in the last moments of the series.
I personally take Kiyoko/Novem's action as an act of revenge for anihilated mankind. And her expression to me expresses the whole set of deranged human feelings that ought to be destroyed by the cleansing flood
The king is dead,
Long live the king,
- Vidar
WTTrinity
2004-04-02, 15:14
I personally doubt your theory since TEAr was created inside Delphys through the main characters' feelings of unrequited love channeled (thus the name TEAr) by the dimensional portal. So
i don't think there's any analogy to that in the last moments of the series.
I thought the name (technically) came from the 'lot number' combination the entity/object was found/placed in. At least I seem to remember that from the AF-F sub. Clearly the naming is deliberate by the creators, but it doesn't necessarily exclude the suggested possibility.
dreamless
2004-04-02, 15:44
anyone understand why there's an episode 27 listed at http://animedaisuki.net:8008?
anyone understand why there's an episode 27 listed at http://animedaisuki.net:8008?
Weird, is it possible that there is another episode?
I went to the linked site, and it does say there is a 27th episode.
I wonder if this is someone's idea of an April Fool's day joke- passed down the line several times
lynne_huang
2004-04-02, 19:22
I do know though that heptatonic and pentatonic (even 12-tonic) scales are common for the Chinese and Japanese traditional music.
But hey, keep up the good work. Once you've found out tell me.
I'm slowly d.l the earlier episodes again to try and find out the exact 'tuning fork' motif. Once I do, i'll let you know! =)
I looked the Beethoven piece up in a concert guide and it read that it was a common mistake to name this piece emperor concerto, since it was not written in favour of an emperor (in that case Napoleon rampaging through Europe) but in dislike.
Yeah which is why i mentioned in my earlier post that it was commonly known as the Emperor concerto although Beethoven didn't name it that. He hated that pple kept calling it the Emperor concerto actually.
Actually, Beethoven did intend to dedicate a work to Napolean: his 3rd symphony, commonly known as the 'Eroica'. (I doubt Beethoven named it that too.) From what I recall, Beethoven idolized Napolean, and thought that he was the saviour... Mankind's salvation.. that kinda stuff. (We know better.) Then news came that Napolean crowned himself King of France and Beethoven was enraged by Napolean's actions. Something about Napolean going against all his original aesthetic ideals. I THINK it was something to do about overthrowing the anarchy in France and Napolean was the main protagonist in this movement and HE went to crown himself King of France! (History students, or anyway who knows more abt the French Revolution, pls fill in the gaps!) Beethoven tore out the manuscript's title of his 3rd symphony, which he had originally dedicated to Napolean and later put in: "To the Memory of a Great Man." Quite dramatic huh. Exactly what you expect of Beethoven.
I found out even more, there obviously is a symphonic composition by a guy called Olliver Messiaen (now that name does fit in :) ) and o wonder it is called Turangalīla Symphony (remember turangalila is prof Enma's experiment to revive the sky)
I listened to it for a bit, and i think that this symphony recurrs in the episodes concerning the Turangalīla project.
@ lynne: that piece is atonal/ disharmonic (can't say if it's 12-tonic, sry)
Thanks for reading,
Keep up the good work,
- Vidar
Oooh! Messiaen! Now that is cool. For people who don't know, he's a 20th century French composer. Yeah his music is not tonal in the traditional sense. But he does employ various modes in his works. And he'd written some Jap-inspired works too.
I'm going to d.l those episodes now, thanks for the input! =)
The 3rd Symphony also is written in the same key as the piano concerto
(can't say what that means though, is the concerto written alike to the demi-god kind of great human beings Beethoven for a while saw napoleon being part of?).
Anyway, Beethoven like many free spirited man of that age saw Napoleon as the great man to bring peace to the distorted europe. Since Napoleon was considered the man to bring the french revolution (with its humanist, natural right and democratic ideals - Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité) to, equally, its conclusion, and to the whole of Europe, i guess, many people saw his reign over Europe as the beginning of some dreamt-of age. When Napoleon then crowned himself king this was a clear sign that he was not the successor to the revolutionists but a tyrann who merely utilized the French Revolution's ideals for gaining might. Thus prolonging the absolutist monarchic state that was there prior to the revolution: in other words he brought the revolution to an end by reversing it (there are some exceptions to that, like the code civil, uttered by Napoleon to appease the revolutionist forces but on the whole it's true)
So my guess is that the eroica must have been written for the pre-crowning Napoleon Bonaparte. Who seemingly appealed to younger Beethoven. While the piano concerto is written in memory of that man and to summon the patriotic anti-Bonaparte movement in Germany and elsewhere in Europe.
Keep posting whatever comes to your mind, I'll be glad to hear it :)
- Vidar
lynne_huang
2004-04-03, 10:48
Hey Vidar-> thanks for clearing things up abt the French Revolution!
Just for info: the melody that Kiyoko sings/hums:
'Shall we gather by the river
where bright angels' feet have trod...'
(which is gradually picked up by everyone) is called "At the River" by John Rutter. He's a choral composer btw, and this piece has SATB and SA versions, both with piano accompaniment. (Yes, he's still alive.)
If i'm not wrong, the words are from (or based on) a psalm in the Bible.
Hey Vidar-> thanks for clearing things up abt the French Revolution!
Just for info: the melody that Kiyoko sings/hums:
'Shall we gather by the river
where bright angels' feet have trod...'
(which is gradually picked up by everyone) is called "At the River" by John Rutter. He's a choral composer btw, and this piece has SATB and SA versions, both with piano accompaniment. (Yes, he's still alive.)
If i'm not wrong, the words are from (or based on) a psalm in the Bible.
Hey Lynne, not a problem. School at last was good for something :)
Thanks for your research. There seems to be more to this than i initially thought. Look here: http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/s/w/swgatriv.htm
The site states it was some priest called Robert Lowry who composed it, apparently after he had an apocalytpic vision!! What a blast! It couldn't be more fitting, could it?
Now that i recall it in most cases the hymn was sung in gilgamesh, there was some kind of destruction going on before (for example it was sung after the blattaria fighting the Gilgamesh destroyed the inner city)
Keep puzzling :) ,
- Vidar
lomeando
2004-04-04, 23:26
There's an episode which is called "Hammerklavier". These are Beethoven's opus 101/106. A female servant plays the piece inside Hotel Providence...
I should mention that although Piano Sonata No. 29, Op. 106 is called "Hammerklavier", that is not the one she is playing. Depending on who you talk to, "Hammerklavier" is either just German for piano, or refers specifically to an early type of piano, e.g., from the early nineteenth century when Beethoven was composing (the piano was changing substantially during this time period). The piece she is actually playing is the second movement of Beethoven's Piano Sonata No. 9 in E major (Op. 14, No. 1).
I should mention that although Piano Sonata No. 29, Op. 106 is called "Hammerklavier", that is not the one she is playing. Depending on who you talk to, "Hammerklavier" is either just German for piano, or refers specifically to an early type of piano, e.g., from the early nineteenth century when Beethoven was composing (the piano was changing substantially during this time period). The piece she is actually playing is the second movement of Beethoven's Piano Sonata No. 9 in E major (Op. 14, No. 1).
thanks for your post lomeando. i just had some kinda brainstorm when i posted that. most likely because i'm very passionate about clearing up gilgamesh's story by clearing up the origin of the musical score - since sound seems to be an important issue.
(just to let you know: hammerklavier is an older version of the now frequent piano which new to that time stroke its strings by "hammering" them. the even older cemballos used goose-keels to stroke the strings in a similar manner to how a harp is made sound. the hammerklavier was invented around beethoven's time just like you said)
Do you see any connection to the story from your knowledge of that sonata?
Hi, haven't posted here before so don't stone me if I ramble in the woods some.
Thought that I could add my two cents.
Some people mind the art of the series. I have to admit that it appeals to me
much more than the "canon" of anime of today where everybody look alike save
their hair. It was as beautiful also in the content department although I don't
think the people in this forum need to be reminded of that.
There is this question what exactly did TEAr's name signify.
It's a jump into unknown, but I pondered about the sound of the name. As the
letter "r" is not capitalized it could be set aside and the rest be considered as part
of the main musical (Madoka Terumichi's) short theme, sort of variation of it - if we
view T E A as D E A, because there is no T in music.
As I watched the series I always thought that the actual sequence of Terumichi's
theme was E A B G D. It sounds to be in A minor (440 Hz being an important actor
in the series) so it ends on rather uncertain note - subdominant. So the D E A
sequence could incorporate the other, "missing" half of the theme, ending it
properly in A - E A B G D, D E A. It could also be considered as disformed
Terumichi's theme backwards - one starts with E A, other ends with it.
We could ascribe it to the fact that TEAr was actually connected to Terumichi, but
I suspect there could be much more to that.
An interesting fact - there is an Estonian composer Urmas Sisask who has used
the frequences of celestial bodies (planets) for his compositions - in the Starry Sky
Cycle for piano. It's unbelievable how good those frequencies sound put together.
So there a parallel - every time the theme of Terumichi resurfaced, it seemed to
resonate with the world/matter/universe, and it reminded me of the sequences of
celestial bodies. I wouldn't be surprised if it were in fact an embodyment of a
physical occurence.
This series seems to deal a lot with the subject of predestination although I
haven't seen any thoughts on it in this forum. Even the fact alone that the clones
were bound to become aliknesses of their "originals".
Sorry for getting carried away ^^;
Hope to read what other people think.
lomeando
2004-04-08, 15:03
Do you see any connection to the story from your knowledge of that sonata?
Sorry, I can't help you much there. I can play a little of it, but that doesn't help reveal any hidden meaning for you. Though one thing to note is that the sonata itself is in E major, and is mostly a cheerful piece. The middle movement, though, is in E minor (with a stint in C major for the B part of the A-B-A form it follows). Hearing it with the rest of the sonata, it never struck me as being nearly as gloomy as it sounds in that episode.
Okay now, maybe I went too far off in my last post. Japanese anime makers are probably not as great music theorists as J.S.Bach who used different musical images for the cross and Christ's tears and whatnot.
thanks for your post lomeando. i just had some kinda brainstorm when i posted that. most likely because i'm very passionate about clearing up gilgamesh's story by clearing up the origin of the musical score - since sound seems to be an important issue.
(just to let you know: hammerklavier is an older version of the now frequent piano which new to that time stroke its strings by "hammering" them. the even older cemballos used goose-keels to stroke the strings in a similar manner to how a harp is made sound. the hammerklavier was invented around beethoven's time just like you said)
Do you see any connection to the story from your knowledge of that sonata?
Just a remark on your question - Beethoven didn't have exactly a great lovelife. Eventually he ended up alone, the women he proposed to did not decide on him (think about the countess). The second part of the 9th sonata reminds me of a funeral march. For the romantics in music history the genre of march signified unmerciful forces of destiny. Sure Beethoven is not a romantic in his early works but it does not mean people in the 21st century who chose this piece cannot attribute new hidden meanings.
lynne_huang
2004-04-08, 20:34
The piece she is actually playing is the second movement of Beethoven's Piano Sonata No. 9 in E major (Op. 14, No. 1).
Yes, that's right! It's Beethoven's op.14#1! I was trying to pinpoint it but I just couldn't rem which one it was.
There is this question what exactly did TEAr's name signify.
It's a jump into unknown, but I pondered about the sound of the name. As the
letter "r" is not capitalized it could be set aside and the rest be considered as part
of the main musical (Madoka Terumichi's) short theme, sort of variation of it - if we
view T E A as D E A, because there is no T in music.
Wow, that's some interesting notion you got there!
Well, just pointing out another possibility: 'T' could be 'B' in solfege terms. I was in Yamaha Music Sch and the note 'B' was sung 'T/Ti' in solfege. Eg. C D E F G A B C would be Do, Re, Mi, Fa, So, La, Ti, Do (The Europeans generally sing 'Ti' as 'Si')
I do agree that the central key of the anime is A minor. You know the choral music where a solo voice enters, followed by other voices, and they form clusters of thirds? They normally have this 'choral' section accompany when the topic at hand is about Dynamis etc etc.
It starts out w 'B C A E D' and all these notes are held down together. Without the D, it forms a A minor chord in 2nd inversion. What's interesting is that if you arrange these notes, they form the 1st 5 notes of the A minor scale A B C D E.
To me, the other theme 'E A B G D' is a derivation from the above.
If you notice, the note 'F' is left out of both themes or is not featured prominently. I think this is because it's reserved for other non-action scenes eg. btw Kiyoko n Madoka in the early episodes:
< (#) denote #octaves below middle C>
F C(2) G(1) D C G (Harp), B1 C1 F (Flute) -->F in the bass is held throughout (pedalpoint) as well as clusters of notes in higher registers. If I were to name a key for this, I would say this is in F major - which is the relative major key of A minor.
Actually I think the motivic material and the orchestration of the music play a big part as well, but never mind.
Just some extra info for fun: in Ep 2, do you guys rem the Countess watching an opera? It's Mozart's Don Giovanni, Act 3 Scene something (I can't remember).
(Btw the music and the scene they showed do not actually correspond in the actual opera.) But basically, the scene has this guy Don Giovanni (seducer of 1000++ women) being dragged away against his will to Hell by the Devil. (Who would want to go anyway?) And this came right after Kiyoko and Madoka were chased by the Gilgamesh (i think), and they saw one of the Gilgamesh in his 'other' form, and were on the verge of fainting. It might be a parallel where Kiyoko/Madoka rep D.G. and the Gilgamesh guy (with scary face thrown in) rep the Devil.
-shruggs- Am I making too much out of nothing? Hmmmmm.
lomeando
2004-04-09, 01:29
If I were to name a key for this, I would say this is in F major - which is the relative major key of A minor.
I'm not sure where you learned your music theory, but C major is the relative major key of A minor. F major and A minor are weakly related keys (despite differing by only one accidental in key signature). F is the VI of A, and A is the III of F (i.e., not the dominant or sub-dominant), and F can't even serve as a secondary dominant, since the B in the A minor scale is a tritone below it, not a fifth.
I had forgotten the Don Giovanni scene, but if you're looking for someone whom multiple women loved being dragged down to Hell, my first guess would've been Enkidu.
lynne_huang
2004-04-09, 16:11
I'm not sure where you learned your music theory, but C major is the relative major key of A minor. F major and A minor are weakly related keys (despite differing by only one accidental in key signature). F is the VI of A, and A is the III of F (i.e., not the dominant or sub-dominant), and F can't even serve as a secondary dominant, since the B in the A minor scale is a tritone below it, not a fifth.
-smacks forehead- yes i can't believe that slipped past me! i need to go back to grade 1! Sorry about that. Heh.
What I meant to point out rather, is that A is III of F, which you mentioned above. This mediant relation is important, don't you think? This A note is fundamental in both A minor and F major, but sounds different in each key, due to the tone colours of the chords of that key. This might have had been the composer's way of linking the different sections together.
Just a random thought.. modulations from the tonic to the mediant key in the Romantic period were quite popular if I'm not wrong...
Oh and yeah, I guess Endiku ought to have had been dragged down. Or rather, his host: TEAR. In the end, TEAR dragged everyone down to hell anyway.
lomeando
2004-04-09, 18:06
Just a random thought.. modulations from the tonic to the mediant key in the Romantic period were quite popular if I'm not wrong...
Common practice (harmony and voice leading in the 18th and 19th centuries) focuses on the dominant and subdominant (it is also sometimes called "dominant harmony", to contrast it with "non-dominant harmony" that came later). Thus "closely" related keys are separated by fifths, not thirds. However, all keys are related, some just more distantly than other, and examples of modulation to the mediant or submediant are not uncommon (Beethoven's own Op. 18, No. 3 String Quartet contains a modulation from D major to F# minor in the third movement; it uses the VI chord in D (IV in f#) as the pivot).
redwalker
2004-04-10, 00:15
This may be a spoiler unless you've seen all 26 episodes.
So I think what happened was:
1. Enkidu flirted with but did not sleep with the future countess.
2. Enkidu met the girl he would soon marry.
3. Enkidu got his wife pregnant and sent her away for safety.
4. Enkidu cheated on his wife with the future countess.
5. The future countess married the count.
6. TEAR arose due to the countess' conflict.
7. TEAR possessed Enkidu and caused Twin X.
Does that sound correct?
Well, what can I say...... with this series I am just not sure. Though I have watched many series, I have never posted any thoughts before, but I thought that I might as well. In Gilgamesh, I don't trust anyone. The enemies of the series both seem bad. (I hope this isn't a spoiler, and if it is, please let me know). I have watched through episode 8, anyone have any thoughts?
oh by the way, sorry for my avatar. i just havent taken the time to find a unique one :)
7thMethuselah
2004-04-10, 02:54
Welcome to the forums
I just started watching gilgamesh as well (i'm up to episode 11) now and it starts to get really interesting. I hate the art in Gilgamesh (character art) but the setting and atmophere is so unique that it kept me interested. So far I really can't say who the good guys and who the bad guys are. I'm kinda voting for the gilgamesh kids (since they are alot cooler :heh: ). Episodes 4-8 were rather boring a bit off character development yes but too long spun in my opinion. But at least now it seems the series is picking up the pace.
I find the mystreries surrounding these kids and this world very intriguing, they are probably the only reason why I didn't drop this show after 5 episodes and I'm glad I didn't, I'm really hoping to get more explanations fast :)
okay, I've reading this thread and there's quite alot of interesting suggestions and ideas here. I just did a marathon finishing this so I figure I'd share my thoughts about the ending:
So first off, Reiko-chan is definitely a boy and a direct clone of the old man. Where she got so much power? I have no idea. The clones all lost/died according to the usual ideal that the original is always the best. Most of the Biblical references that were mentioned I have to agree with. The countess realized the fact that she was the cause for the manifestation of TEAR and decided to accept it. With a shock like that (you ended the world), what else could you do at that point? Kiyoko is dead, she and her brothers spirits meet at the end and will always be together. The girl out of the embryo/cacoon is the child, but here's a odd theory that I'd like to throw into the bunch, TEAR at the end asks the child is she wants to play (asabo), but the child, being a mix of gilgamesh and a descendent of Enkidu refuses. TEAR in this case wants to play ANOTHER game, a game of human life again. However this time it's refused from the start but it still doesn't end well because the child is definitely twisted. I keep thinking of the Countess' fear of what a child of gilgamesh and kiyoko would be like. So in the end humans still maitain the violent, selfish, ignorant attitude and everything will restart itself with no progress at all. The Cleansing Flood is pretty much useless. It's either that or she used the tuning fork to get rid of TEAR to "retune" the broken world (remember how kiyoko is always tuning that broken piano she's so fond of, but in the end it will always be to no avail). The End.
Personally I feel that thought-provoking endings for anime series based on apocalyptic stuff always works well because it leaves a deep after taste. When you touch on the subject of ending the world, you can't have a direct conclusion because no one can agree with each other. It has to be left open and weird. All in all, an awesome series once you get used to the artstyle :) .
7thMethuselah
2004-04-10, 20:16
I just saw epi's 12 - 26 in one afternoon/evening. The ending was weird, I didn't expect something like this. Reading all the previous posts I think we are more or less right about the meaning of the ending. Still there was one thing that bothered me
the fact that the countess and her feeling towards enkidu were resposible for everything, in the entire series there were very little references to that, so it kinda "dropped out of the sky". Too bad they killed of Reiki, I love the mysterious characters and he was the only character apart from the gilgamesh children I liked.
Oh well, this anime earned it's spot between those other incomprehensible anime's called Evangelion and Lain. I still hate the art though...
I liked the art and loved the ending, it was different like Lain and Eva and I loved those endings too. I watched the remastered version of eva's ending too many times to remember, for some reason watching that ending while completely blazed on good herbs makes you feel the anime even more, then again maybe it's the really good song (turn back time) that they were playing while everything was happening, music does sound better and different while blazed.
...music does sound better and different while blazed.
That a suggestion? :hmm: lol
It's either that or she used the tuning fork to get rid of TEAR to "retune" the broken world (remember how kiyoko is always tuning that broken piano she's so fond of, but in the end it will always be to no avail)
That's an interesting point you made. For me alike Kiyoko symbolized the purity of mankind (There's an alusion to that in the 5th or so episode when kiyoko is having an examination after she was kidnapped by the gilgamesh onto the airport: the countess finds out that "she still has it" which to me means that she is a virgin)
Given that, kiyoko in my oppinion seemingly tries to "retune" mankind, which to me, like you said soupy, is symbolized in the tuning of the broken piano - her counterpart (and alas her father) Enkidu possessed by the unpure feelings contained in the revengeful spirit that is TEAr, is trying to clean it by setting its evolution back.
The counterpart-like behavior of Kiyoko is clearly evident in some moments in the series. For example when she does not want to meet up with her father after she was kidnapped, and in her seemingly natural, instinctive dislike for the countess.
Who we know is to be accounted for all.
Anyway in the very last episode there's this very dramatic word of tatsuya's to Enkidu: "nee-san ga shinda yo" - "Sister is dead" and Enkidu just rambles on about the new mankind. That suggests to me that with the last remaining pure element gone, earth is bound for apocalypse.
every time the theme of Terumichi resurfaced, it seemed to
resonate with the world/matter/universe, and it reminded me of the sequences of
celestial bodies. I wouldn't be surprised if it were in fact an embodyment of a
Can't say i understood this fully, but it reminded me of something
Wasn't Kazamatsuri using a (i don't know how) frequenced arrow against Enkidu in the end. And then again the tuning fork of kiyokos was made sound on several occasions when gilgamesh were near.
Just some extra info for fun: in Ep 2, do you guys rem the Countess watching an opera? It's Mozart's Don Giovanni, Act 3 Scene something (I can't remember).
(Btw the music and the scene they showed do not actually correspond in the actual opera.) But basically, the scene has this guy Don Giovanni (seducer of 1000++ women) being dragged away against his will to Hell by the Devil.
Made me remember that she is an impersonization of Ishtar who also has an ambiguous love-life, and who draws bad luck to everyone she loves (Count Werdenberg, Madoka Terumichi). Don Giovanni and Ishtar are some closely tied characters, no?
Well, well, well however it is,
Thanks for reading,
- Vidar
dreamless
2004-04-14, 09:00
hmm... Kiyoko may represent the purity of mankind, but her child represents the purity of... mankind and gilgamesh? the merge of the purest of mankind with the purest of gilgamesh?
hmm... Kiyoko may represent the purity of mankind, but her child represents the purity of... mankind and gilgamesh? the merge of the purest of mankind with the purest of gilgamesh?
Her purity was lost as she slept with Novem. That's the subtext.
dreamless
2004-04-14, 10:20
Her purity was lost as she slept with Novem. That's the subtext.
then the ending means the impure human/gilgamesh wins over the impure human/TEAR? wait, gilgamesh are created by TEAR, so in the end it's impure human/TEAR vs. impure human/TEAR?
it's more and more confusing @_@
then the ending means the impure human/gilgamesh wins over the impure human/TEAR? wait, gilgamesh are created by TEAR, so in the end it's impure human/TEAR vs. impure human/TEAR?
it's more and more confusing @_@
Absolutely ^_^
What purity after all? From its deranged look at the very end it is quite obvious that kiyoko/novem is not pure. But then again the oh so pure TEAr was not born from the rather pure love of two people (even though one consisted of anti-matter :) ) but from one woman's fear of loss and envy. Confusingly paradoxic >_<
I just finished watching the whole series and i'd like to add some comments.
First off...the art at first glance was very...*new* (I have watched anime's from Trigun to Naruto) I didnt really like the art at first and went beyond 5eps of the series. As it went along the series really came through. I adapted to the art and was fine with it towards the end of the series. People dont like it because the art is very different then how other anime characters are drawn from other shows.
I would rabble on the things u guys have posted but am too busy to argue against u guys o.O.
PS: Does anyone agree with me that the towards the end of the show, it started getting very disturbing; as in the blood and etc? the pointless killing of each other and the convo between the characters? I was kind of shocked. Kind of remembed me of Narutaru
dreamless
2004-06-17, 20:44
I agree it's disturbing, but a different way of "disturbing" from Narutaru's... well, "disturbing". It's quite a dark and bleak series, one woman's jealousy killed all humans... now that's some extreme love stuff :twitch:
I just finished watching the whole series and i'd like to add some comments.
First off...the art at first glance was very...*new* (I have watched anime's from Trigun to Naruto) I didnt really like the art at first and went beyond 5eps of the series. As it went along the series really came through. I adapted to the art and was fine with it towards the end of the series. People dont like it because the art is very different then how other anime characters are drawn from other shows.
I have to agree with you about the art. In the end, I thought that it was one of the few redeeming qualities of this series. It was interesting that the whole thing had a... oh I don't know, a pastel feeling to it. Does that make any sense?
PS: Does anyone agree with me that the towards the end of the show, it started getting very disturbing; as in the blood and etc? the pointless killing of each other and the convo between the characters? I was kind of shocked.
As for this, YES!! I thought that the ending was completely lame and a total cop-out. It really had the feeling to me that they had no idea how they were going to end the series when they started it and then when they got there, they just couldn't come up with anything good, so they figured, "hey why not just have everyone die needlessly and pointlessly, then we will throw in a couple of random images to make everyone think really hard. Hopefully, they'll make up some meaning to this totally random and useless ending!" OK, ok. So that's a little harsh. But still, imo this show was really not worth it. I stuck with it through the whole thing because it was actually pretty interesting, but the ending blew big donkey balls. :heh: But then, I didn't like the end of Eva either, so what to I know. :D
dreamless
2004-06-18, 09:46
kinda wodering if anyone has read the original manga? how faithful is the story taken from the manga?
http://comics.yahoo.co.jp/images/10days/girugame01/thum_0001.jpghttp://comics.yahoo.co.jp/images/10days/girugame01/thum_0002.jpghttp://comics.yahoo.co.jp/images/10days/girugame01/thum_0003.jpg
http://comics.yahoo.co.jp/images/10days/girugame01/thum_0004.jpghttp://comics.yahoo.co.jp/images/10days/girugame01/thum_0005.jpghttp://comics.yahoo.co.jp/images/10days/girugame01/thum_0006.jpg
Prince of Chronics
2004-06-18, 15:43
Does anyone agree with me that the towards the end of the show, it started getting very disturbing; as in the blood and etc? the pointless killing of each other and the convo between the characters?
I enoyed that very much actually... there was a whole bunch of episodes that was purely talking and plot development... then it just got all crazy... it was very entertaining to see all that...
kinda wodering if anyone has read the original manga? how faithful is the story taken from the manga?
I did not even know there was a manga for this series... the character designs look so different... I also would like to know how close the manga and the anime stories are...
"Does anyone agree with me that the towards the end of the show, it started getting very disturbing; as in the blood and etc? the pointless killing of each other and the convo between the characters?"
I wasnt really saying i hated the series...it was just disturbing u know? i felt very shocked because the countess showed like no emotion, *well she did but not enough..* Everyone died but then she kisses the man and etc...WTF? thats one deranged women if u ask me..NOW it woulda been more sense if she didnt drop the gun but kiss him and then shoot him...bmauahhaa.
**Ending** Am guessing their plan for cleansing flood didnt work or did it? am wondering if they planned the mutation of Kiyoko?(right name?) She happened to be the last person alived imo at the end of the show or they seem to hint...did she kill TEAR? with the tuning fork...damn them creators leaving us behind at the ending
Spoiler protection on this one, just so I wont get a bad rep ;)
I just finished this the series, and I have to agree with pontupo 100%
It really had the feeling to me that they had no idea how they were going to end the series when they started it and then when they got there, they just couldn't come up with anything good, so they figured, "hey why not just have everyone die needlessly and pointlessly, then we will throw in a couple of random images to make everyone think really hard. Hopefully, they'll make up some meaning to this totally random and useless ending!"
This was the worst crap ending ever, the animators and crew just got sick of the series and wasted it in one episode, or more half an episode
-"Hey this is getting sooo boring"
-"I got an idea, let's just kill 'em all!"
-"Hey, that's a good idea!"
From now on I'll just read about the ending of a so-so interesting series before I finish it, this was crap. Point-less
dreamless
2004-06-24, 14:41
well, the show had this ominous atmosphere and that "sheltering sky" right from the beginning, so I think the ending itself is quite fitting to the series... not to say that this series is a 26-episode series right since the planning, so I guess the whole series is planned to end like this since the start. But I agree that the ending is a bit too fast and abrupt. Maybe if they expeand what happened in the last two episodes into another 6 or so episodes it will be much better and feel less rushed...
And again I wonder if that's because of what happened in the original manga by Ishinomori Shotaro (creator of Karmen Rider) or the anime series original creation?
mantidor
2004-07-05, 20:20
I cant believe this series got licenced!
anyway I finished the series and I liked it a lot, the opening and closing were awful but they grow on me and eventualy I could tolerate them and even enjoy them a little bit, the art style was one of the reasons I start to download the series, I like it from the beggining, but the animation was really a let down, it improved lately but not much. However The gilgamesh kids are the coolest characters I've seen, and the story was amazing, a confusing ending but still enjoyable, and confusing endings give us material to discuss about, so thats a plus ^_^
Your theories about music are very interesting, and I would've never realized about the huge part music has in the series if it wasnt for your posts.
I know this is a very old discussion but I read your posts about the TEAR name and I think that in the series they explained that they called it like that because that was the name of the container that had TEAR orginally or something like that, its just a number (well, letters but like a number... you know what i mean) so I dont think that is related to music at all.
Abut the ending... when the countess try to kill herself I thought that she was going to do it to destroy TEAR because it was her heart after all, but fuu stops her and doesnt let her, dont you think that with the countess dead TEAR would have vanished and thus the world would be safe? I think so! we'll never know anyway...
This is definately one of my favorite shows and Im sorry since it doesnt get the recognition it deserves only because the animation is not great.
Wow, I never thought this one would be licensed either. This is one of my 3 favorited animes, but I thought the themes might be too mature for a license- very cool. The only bad thing is that ADV licensed it. ADV=3 episodes per disc=RAPE
This is one of the few series I liked enough to buy on DVD even though I've already seen it and even though I know ADV will rape my wallet!
*Yells for joy*
*thinks about how Kurau, Kenran, and Shura were also just licensed*
*gets depressed again*
my 1st post. this anime is amazing and leaves a really deep feeling inside.
i watched AnimeForever's fasubbed episodes...great job guys.
ending is great.didn't expect something like that tough.
last 2 episodes get confusing so maybe i can find some answers here.
so here we go.
i came to a conclusion that TEAR was an important part for the rebirth of ideal mankind based on Enkidus and Tatsuyas conversation in episode 26 (around 17:00). Enkidu says "All the matter on Earth will nourish TEAR"(Based on AnimeForever Fansubs). But Kiyokos child killed tear does that mean that the birth and evolution of the ideal mankind never happens and kiyokos child dies a lonely death?
What's the point of TEAR eating all the matter on earth(if i translated nourish correctly to my native language,or is nourish visa versa)? Will tear then become a world and being a part of that world then it will radiate its light everywhere and all the new humans born will have dynamis because of that?
where did the last scene take place(white, one tree,red corsses)?
maybe my conclusion was a big misunderstanding, since i didn't see anything about it on about 7 pages in this discussion.
Mephisto2k
2006-10-01, 17:32
I just finished gilgamesh and it was hell of a great and unique anime. Though I was a bit shocked by the ending too. But in contrast to what some others here said, the ending was defenitely not random. Its somehow a similar ending to that of neon genesis evangelion and some other animes I dont recall right now.
Its one of those ending that are showen because of their meaning and effect and not to satisfy our wish to see and end of the conflict and everything returning to a semi-normal life.
Though I was a bit disappointed because the buttler was told to return the developed pictures they made once everything is over, but this aspect wasnt really picked up again in the last episode.
I guess there was some biblical reference in the ending as for the "big flood" that will clean/kill all of those sinful humans. Still I wonder why the courtess accepted this ending. Was it because after everyone was killed see agreed on how sinful this world is?
And the last scene when Kiyoko comes out of her cocoon, I think it was the biblical equivalent of the creation of the world/paradise. There was this big tree and she was the first human (whether it was her, her child, or even both in one person). Maybe tear represents god and by killing him Kiyoko commited the first sin again to get thrown out of paradise; meaning that its in the nature of human and theres no way to change this.
Well but im not that sure about all that too. The ending has too many possibilities for interpretation and theres much i dont understand too. I guess im revieving and old thread, but Id be interested of what others though or interpretated of the ending.
blondie606lj
2006-10-05, 17:51
does anyone know where i can find sheet music for the song that Fuko and Tatsia played (when he was giver her dynamus, etc.)?
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