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Conversation Between Auxilism and Kaijo
Showing Visitor Messages 1 to 10 of 15
  1. Auxilism
    2012-11-12 00:21
    Auxilism
    Quote:
    I'm only a layman and amateur in the study of human psychology, so this will be a half-ass explanation ... It's a combination of all these factors, as best as I can determine.
    Thank you.
  2. Kaijo
    2012-11-11 21:43
    Kaijo
    I wanna say that, I don't want to convert you to Nanoha/Yuuno, if you don't care for the pairing. If you don't, that's fine! NanoFate is fine, too. I'm just trying to give some perspective on how actions and words relate to relationships. As you've noted that you don't have experience with that, you will find that it can change your perspective once you get into one. That you don't know about hugging so much, makes me a bit sad, as everyone needs to be hugged. Touch and being touched(in a non-sexual, non-romantic fashion), is a vital part of human development and psychological need. I'm not sure where you are from or how old you are, but I do hope you gain friends that you can hug, and will hug you.

    Quote:
    I'm not trying to start another debate here, but why is that so? Is it too cliche?
    I'm only a layman and amateur in the study of human psychology, so this will be a half-ass explanation. But it has to do with how your brain handles anticipation and reward, and a "feel-good" chemical your brain makes called endorphin. You are actually *more* excited during the anticipation stage, where you are expecting something good to happen; when you are feeling good, it is because your brain is making a natural drug called endorphins. When it finally happens, you may be happy, but afterward the endorphin levels in your brain drop and you don't feel as good. You hit the peak, and now are going downhill. The show doesn't seem as good anymore since the "main" plot point has been addressed. Everyone has different levels of this that they respond to, so it doesn't affect everyone equally. So while people will still watch, it will be inevitable that people, now lacking that high they felt before, will wander off to find another high.

    Note that this doesn't just apply to romantic plots; the conclusion to any storyline functions this way. Me personally, I felt the endorphins building as we approached the point where Nanoha blasted Quattro and rescued Vivio.

    The other reason, has to do with demographics and popularity. A series like One Piece is extremely popular, because it is a fairly simply storyline, and thus people of all ages can pick it up. By being something that more people will buy, it means it will continue. This is why shonen and shoujo are the most popular forms of manga and anime. You probably don't hear much about seinen or josei manga, because those are primarily aimed toward more adult audiences. They are less popular because kids don't buy them (and thus even less chance any of those get made into an anime).

    How is this important in our context? It means kids don't really get how relationships work. Two people getting together in the real world, is far from "happily ever after." Many seinen and josei storylines deal with the trials and tribulations that happen, even after a relationship starts. But once a couple gets together and those particular issues begin, they'll go right over the head of a younger person, who will then wander off because they just don't get it.

    The last issue, is that many manga artists are single and don't have much relationship experience, either. But they just know enough to write the run-up conflict between two characters. So if they go over that point and into an actual relationship, their lack of experience fails to convince people in the real world of the "realness" of the relationship. It's a combination of all these factors, as best as I can determine.

    Quote:
    They say that Yuuno has a bond with Nanoha that neither Fate nor Hayate understands. Since they are both women, it could be that Nanoha treats Yuuno as her brother although he actually isn't. It's quite common in my country for two good friends to greet each other with "Eh, brother/sister!" It could also be interpreted as love, whatever floats your boat.
    Hence the subtext and vagueness that Tsuzuki writes with, heh. Generally most things can be interpreted multiple ways. For instance, Hayate (speaking about Nanoha and Fate) says: "Well, their relationship is quite different from other people." And Fate adds: "Well, to tell you truth, we never had those sorts of conversations eitherů" Implying that Nanoha and Yuuno talk about things that Nanoha doesn't talk about Fate with. But I'm okay thinking that Nanoha and Yuuno have a strange mesh of childhood friendship, brother/sister, and teacher/student aspects, which is why Hayate and Fate have a more difficult time understanding it. It's the same reason I think of Nanoha and Fate as heterosexual life partners, from that one trope.
  3. Auxilism
    2012-11-11 18:42
    Auxilism
    Quote:
    Not really, anymore than if two people had found Nanoha and Yuuno hugging. Hugging is fairly neutral (I hug a lot of friends, male and female, as do most people).
    Then my point is void becomes void. I didn't know people hugged each other so much.

    I realise that I haven't been doing what I said I was trying to do. Although I claim to have no problems with Yuuno/Nanoha, I keep trying to play down your evidence on them. I'll stop now. If someone comes and gloats at me for giving in to Yuuno/Nanoha after this conversation I'll just ignore them.
    Quote:
    generally speaking, once you pair up main characters, your series tends to lose viewership.
    I'm not trying to start another debate here, but why is that so? Is it too cliche?
    Quote:
    they turn around and play it differently in the fourth-wall-breaking Megami sound stages.
    They say that Yuuno has a bond with Nanoha that neither Fate nor Hayate understands. Since they are both women, it could be that Nanoha treats Yuuno as her brother although he actually isn't. It's quite common in my country for two good friends to greet each other with "Eh, brother/sister!" It could also be interpreted as love, whatever floats your boat.
  4. Kaijo
    2012-11-11 09:44
    Kaijo
    Quote:
    Arisa and Suzuka found Nanoha and Fate hugging and they made it sound like it happened often, does that count?
    Not really, anymore than if two people had found Nanoha and Yuuno hugging. Hugging is fairly neutral (I hug a lot of friends, male and female, as do most people). Hell, we see an onscreen hug between Nanoha and Fate, but that was when Nanoha was breaking down due to Vivio being kidnapped. Hardly a romantic moment, but more something anyone would do to comfort someone who had just lost a loved one.

    Quote:
    Before I go on, Nanoha and Fate were nine during that scene (I assume you are talking about ssm1)
    You are correct, but it's not odd for characters to recognize love from someone; Nanoha herself recognized the love between her parents in episode 1. Keep in mind, I'm not saying Nanoha has feelings back for him (indeed, she seems rather clueless in this regard), just that we have evidence of actual feelings that Yuuno has. Of course, it can be argued he might have grown out of them, but then we have StrikerS, both SSM StrikerS, and the show. In the former, Fate and Hayate tease Nanoha about Nanoha's relationship with Yuuno, and in the latter, we see Fate hand Yuuno off to Nanoha.

    Oh, and there's also Amy's two scenes, one in the A's epilogue, and one in the A's manga, where she makes observations of Yuuno's feelings. So even if we were to disregard SSM1 because of age, then that rationale falls away when it happens at 15 (and 19).

    Quote:
    Pardon me if I don't share your views on this. There was no development or emphasis; they just had the teasing Nanoha and Fate did and the next thing, marriage. They were not shown having the boyfriend-girlfriend stage which I find is when the development comes in.
    I suppose this is a difference between us, then. I've read a lot of books and watched a lot of series, both anime and not, where certain relationships have been in the background. They weren't the emphasis, and not much time was spent on them, but they were no less valid. If you try to focus on and develop the relationships of every secondary and background character, your narrative will fall into a black hole.

    And I think we have some agreement here; if you are worried people on AS, or me in particular, aren't accepting of NanoFate, you'd be incorrect. In fact, we do have fans of NF here, and as I've said, I don't mind the couple. I think we're talking past each other a bit, because I will agree NF is a fairly strong possibility. I just also happen to believe that NY is also a fairly strong possibility.

    When we talk about Tsuzuki trolling us, this is what we mean. He is deliberately including vague subtext that can be read either way (with regards to both Fate and Yuuno), but refusing to make anything canon. There are some reasons for this; it's highly speculated that he had planned Nanoha/Yuuno (since Nanoha/Chrono was canon in Triangle Hearts), but once he saw the fanbase lap up Fate, he knew it would kill his series if he went ahead with that, so he gave the fanbase more Fate. The other reason is that, generally speaking, once you pair up main characters, your series tends to lose viewership. Even the direction he went in StrikerS with Nanoha and Fate being mamas to Vivio, caused viewership to drop (hence why it lost a chance at a fourth anime season). So writers tend to hold off the relationship until the very end, if they do it at all. The exception is explicitly romantic anime/manga, where you know the two will get together (and even then, them getting together is usually the end of it).

    So yeah, I'll say there are plenty of grey areas. If you're trying to convince me NF rightly has a place in that grey area, I'd agree. I suppose me (and people like Rising Dragon tried to tell you), is that AS is different than all other Nanoha forums, in that we don't like gray areas shoved down our throats as canon. There are NF people here who understand that, though, and we get along great with them (I'm friends with several NF people, who enjoy both my NF fics and non-NF fics).

    Last note: this kinda started over the transcript of Nana and Yukari's interview, which you really can't treat as 100% truth, because they turn around and play it differently in the fourth-wall-breaking Megami sound stages. Which is why I made my initial comment about them.
  5. Auxilism
    2012-11-10 21:27
    Auxilism
    Quote:
    your point here, based on the above, seems to be that the only reason Nanoha and Fate didn't do any "couple-love" stuff, is because it wasn't the focus of the show at the time (due to being young, etc.).
    It's not the only reason, it's the reason I used to counter the evidence that was presented.
    Quote:
    One of the ways I recognize that there is some relationship potential in the show(if there is not kissing or declarations or such), is to see if other characters in the show see the feelings of others.
    Arisa and Suzuka found Nanoha and Fate hugging and they made it sound like it happened often, does that count?
    Quote:
    (Fate has even said that she cheers Yuuno on in this regard!)
    Before I go on, Nanoha and Fate were nine during that scene (I assume you are talking about ssm1). Based on my partially valid point, Fate should not have any feelings for Nanoha yet. Maybe Yuuno did because it's natural for a boy to like a girl or his hormones went crazy because he read too many books (no offense).

    I have another idea which is based on my own logic again; people can't accept homosexual couples simply because they think that they will never give birth like heterosexual couples. Maybe it's because of my country's birth policy that I think that way.

    Fate read about Nanoha's world from a book. Since it was even called a textbook, it would contain general Earth ideas; one being that the only way for babies to be born is for a male and a female to do that. Since Nanoha is her best friend (at that time), she wouldn't want to deprive her of the joys of having biological children (if the book explained that much). Therefore, she suppressed her feelings (if she had any) and let Yuuno have her. [I actually didn't know about homosexuality until I watched Nanoha.]

    If I was trying to convince you to believe in NanoFate a hundred percent, I would go on about why she changed her mind but I'm not trying to do that.
    Quote:
    emphasize a connection between the characters
    Quote:
    the show hasn't had much of a problem developing actual relationships
    Pardon me if I don't share your views on this. There was no development or emphasis; they just had the teasing Nanoha and Fate did and the next thing, marriage. They were not shown having the boyfriend-girlfriend stage which I find is when the development comes in.

    I'll also make my stand clear. I do not have problems with non-NanoFate material (even if I did I wouldn't scream at the creator(s)). I only feel that people should not put or play down NanoFate simply because they can't have babies without a man.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
    she presumes Nanoha will get pregnant by a man
    I am not attempting to pull NanoFate into a white or black area, grey areas are enough.
  6. Kaijo
    2012-11-10 10:27
    Kaijo
    Quote:
    I am not trying to do that, I am attempting to show that they haven't done any acts of love because they were either too young, not the main point of the story any more or the plot was never about confessing.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but your point here, based on the above, seems to be that the only reason Nanoha and Fate didn't do any "couple-love" stuff, is because it wasn't the focus of the show at the time (due to being young, etc.). Which is a partially valid point. But as I've pointed out that, even though Nanoha is about family rather than relationships, they haven't shied away from them, since we had the aforementioned Chrono/Amy (who had some teasing moments in A's) and Griffith/Lucino(who had Shari recognize their feelings). So, despite it not being the focus, they did find small moments to emphasize a connection between the characters. There are plenty of manga and sound stage stuff that fill the gaps of the anime, so there is plenty of opportunity.

    One of the ways I recognize that there is some relationship potential in the show(if there is not kissing or declarations or such), is to see if other characters in the show see the feelings of others. In this way, Since Shari saw it, I believe it. You'll want to be careful, then, because both Amy and Fate have recognized that Yuuno has feelings for Nanoha(Fate has even said that she cheers Yuuno on in this regard!). Although, conversely, it seems fairly likely Nanoha is ignorant of this and doesn't seem to have feelings for anyone (she's married to her job, if anything, heh).

    Let me restate to be clear: I have no problems with NanoFate, or people thinking they look like they'd make a good couple, or writing them as a couple (I even have a few fics that do this pairing). There is subtext there that can be interpreted that way. But there is no real evidence they feel anything more than friendship towards each other. And given that the show hasn't had much of a problem developing actual relationships, I see nothing that would hold them back if they decided to do that. And as noted, there is much stronger evidence for Chrono/Amy, Griffith/Lucino, and Teana/Subaru. Hell, there is even stronger evidence for Nanoha/Yuuno, but AS doesn't take that as canon, either. Despite the fact that Amy, Fate, and Hayate are all aware of Yuuno's feelings.
  7. Auxilism
    2012-11-09 20:52
    Auxilism
    Quote:
    there is a strikers Sound Stage where Subaru does say "I love you" to Teana. Granted, it was the "suki" form of the word which can just iterate a strong like, and not necessarily love, and Teana promptly gets angry and says "Shut up! People might misunderstand you!" But that's more than Nanoha and Fate have done. So while that can also be explained away as Subaru just admiring Teana as a dear friend, if anyone is lesbian in this show, Subaru would be it. Especially considering Nanoha and Fate have never referred to each other as anything other than "tomodachi" ie, friend/best friend.
    Excuse me while I read ss01 to refresh my memory.
    Valid points, but I would like to view this from their age and plot focus. The StrikerS sound stages were more focused on the new cast as compared to the A's sound stages. Yes, Nanoha and Fate were also given time to show if they loved each other beyond friends but they were only nine at the time. Yes, they were a whole lot more mature than most nine year olds but their hormones still need time to grow.

    After the few scenes that they were alone in A's, they were alone only when they went to sleep (before adopting Vivio). That was only shown in the anime which you've stated that it does not cover any romance.

    There was that one scene in the movie 1st drama cd side N which had Nanoha and Fate alone, but they weren't angsting about being separated. Of course, you would know of that particular track that would have been brought up many times by any NanoFate fan trying to convince you. I am not trying to do that, I am attempting to show that they haven't done any acts of love because they were either too young, not the main point of the story any more or the plot was never about confessing.

    Quote:
    Although I do find it interesting that you find hugging and kissing to be 'explicitly sexual' but not groping.
    I think they are called 'private parts' for a reason, they should not be felt up unless the couple is making love and they need to do so to get high. Of course, I have never been in a relationship so you can choose to ignore any points I make based on this logic.

    Quote:
    we could see possibilities early on (especially if you read the manga). Shari realized Griffith and Lucino had feelings for each other, for instance, and made it a point to help set the two up. There is quite a bit of extra material out there that covers it
    I've read it, but I don't remember everything :P
    Based on my logic above, I question if Shari (assuming that Shirley is Shari), who actually groped Hayate back, was not just being a pervert and trying to set them up just for the heck of it. Did they show what she actually did? She could have just said that because her mind was full of warped thoughts (based on my 'groping' logic) and didn't really mean it.

    Granted, if you didn't accept my reasoning after the second quote, whatever was posted in the paragraph above is void. I will then accept defeat in this category since there seems to be a lot of evidence left for me to counter (if I even can).
  8. Kaijo
    2012-11-09 17:57
    Kaijo
    Quote:
    Are you referring to the groping incident? If so, then Hayate is lesbian for a lot of women...
    Maybe it's because you have been in a relationship and you grope your partner or your partner gropes you (wow, now I feel weird for saying that...) that you consider this to be a sign of affection. Personally, I think that it's just because Subaru's more of a pervert (or more open) so she did that. Nanoha and Fate would be out of character if they did that; they're more mature and calm.
    I'll just respond to this part, because I get the feeling that you haven't read/heard the sound stages, but... there is a strikers Sound Stage where Subaru does say "I love you" to Teana. Granted, it was the "suki" form of the word which can just iterate a strong like, and not necessarily love, and Teana promptly gets angry and says "Shut up! People might misunderstand you!" But that's more than Nanoha and Fate have done. So while that can also be explained away as Subaru just admiring Teana as a dear friend, if anyone is lesbian in this show, Subaru would be it. Especially considering Nanoha and Fate have never referred to each other as anything other than "tomodachi" ie, friend/best friend.

    Although I do find it interesting that you find hugging and kissing to be 'explicitly sexual' but not groping. :P Let me tell you, that when you are in a relationship with a girl who loves you, yes, you can play around. Kissing, hugging, groping, etc. The dynamic is much different as opposed to just friends.

    Oh, lastly I'll say that, yes, Chrono/Amy and Griffith/Lucino were information dumps, but we could see possibilities early on (especially if you read the manga). Shari realized Griffith and Lucino had feelings for each other, for instance, and made it a point to help set the two up. There is quite a bit of extra material out there that covers it, although since the anime focuses more on the concept of family, it doesn't cover actual romantic relationships much.
  9. Auxilism
    2012-11-08 11:57
    Auxilism
    Quote:
    While this is true, it's not like they've totally avoided such things, either. Chrono and Amy got married and had kids. Griffith and Lucino got married.
    Maybe my definition of 'explicitly sexual' differs from yours. I consider displays of affection (hugging, kissing, etc) to be 'explicitly sexual'. Perhaps the only time was Momoko flirting with Shiro at the dinning table (then again, I can't remember that scene well). I feel that the marriages were just information dumps as no interaction was shown. In my opinion, the pairings don't even make sense.
    Quote:
    When I said it was about families ... Why can't she be a single mother?"
    Again, personal author's plots that do not insist that they have to get laid by a man so I won't talk about them.
    Quote:
    And the show doesn't shy away from lesbianism, either. "Rainbows are straighter than Subaru," after all.
    Are you referring to the groping incident? If so, then Hayate is lesbian for a lot of women...
    Maybe it's because you have been in a relationship and you grope your partner or your partner gropes you (wow, now I feel weird for saying that...) that you consider this to be a sign of affection. Personally, I think that it's just because Subaru's more of a pervert (or more open) so she did that. Nanoha and Fate would be out of character if they did that; they're more mature and calm.
    Quote:
    And luckily, I do know some NanoFate people ... it is because I hate seeing even NanoFate people being slapped down for supporting an alternate interpretation.
    I need knowledge on 'Future Tense' to respond to this. No offense, but I don't want to know about it.
  10. Kaijo
    2012-11-08 08:42
    Kaijo
    Quote:
    I think you've said this a few times here or in your fics; Nanoha was never about romance. It's like trying to bash a comedy for having no horror. Pardon me but I will consider that article partially void due to this.
    While this is true, it's not like they've totally avoided such things, either. Chrono and Amy got married and had kids. Griffith and Lucino got married. While not the focus, they are there. So if the staff had wanted to form an actual lesbian relationship, they could have done so (we are talking about a company that has done a lot of hentai, and does quite a bit of fanservice).

    When I said it was about families, and more to the point, about different kinds of families, I do honestly believe they meant to show the formation of a family, that lacks any sort of romance or sexual aspects. Just like Fate adopts Caro, Nanoha, Fate and Vivio form a kind of odd family, but one in which two close sisters raise a child. It's as if to say, "Hey, a family is more than just the typical thing you see on TV. There are many ways, all equally valid, for people to come together into a family-like unit."

    It's partially why I'm kinda against the lesbian aspect... because I feel it takes away from the accomplishment done here. Actually, Nanoha (kinda like Fate), is more of a single mother, so it is more like two mothers supporting each other to make their lives work better. I think that is an interesting concept and, that is taken away from by saying that *have* to be lesbians to make it work. There are many single mothers out there, and it is possible, and kudos to the show for saying that a single mother, adopting a small child, isn't a bad thing. It's a similar argument I get from people strongly into NanoFate who find out that Yuuno is involved in some of my fics, and say something like, "Why does Nanoha NEED a man? Why must a woman have a man? Why can't you just let the relationship be between two women?" And I'd say, "Why must Nanoha have anyone at all? Why can't she be a single mother?"

    And the show doesn't shy away from lesbianism, either. "Rainbows are straighter than Subaru," after all. So while this comedy has no overt horror, it is there in small doses, and I must conclude that the intent of a plot point was comedy, and not horror. But as I've also said, I'm fine with people taking that angle; just try not to claim it is factual, anymore than trying to claim that Acous is Chrono's secret lover, even though the two are close.

    And luckily, I do know some NanoFate people (who are actual lesbians!) who are cool with Yuunoha, or with Nanoha as a single mother, in addition to NanoFate. Hell, some of them tried to post Future Tense (which has no overt lesbianism) to nanofate.us because they liked it so much, but the owner of the site, Haru, deleted it (even though it has, according to most people, one of the best Nanoha/Fate chapters they've read). So if you wonder why I'm a little peevish about this concept, it is because I hate seeing even NanoFate people being slapped down for supporting an alternate interpretation.

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