What makes the overpowering worse is that Nanoha elsewhere has been pretty good about power levels. In the first series Precia was not a world destroying entity (the jewel seed may have been but she wasn't) and the TSAB sent a whole force after her. Note that despite all that she wasn't actually defeated but destroyed herself. In Strikers the levels are also quite realistic. Nanoha and Fates' enemies are not significantly stronger than them and mainly fight using tactics and superior numbers.
A large part of the problem in A's comes from the makers trying to go bigger. This is a natural temptation with sequels, why just have an extremely powerful enemy when you can have a world destroying one. However it needs to be done with a sense of realism, could our heroes actually conceivably defeat it.
I've been trying to think of ways the battle could be done without completely screwing the power levels and it has not been easy.
The options really come down to 1: Have them lose. Probably not a popular choice. 2. Send in a much bigger force (really who sends two lolis on a mission like this), 3 Have them defeat Reinforce via the use of other methods, this is one of the big problems with how it was done was that it was a straight up match of magical strength. 4. Don't make Reinforce world destroying. Nothing she does indicates anywhere near that level.
None of those are perfect but the whole idea of Nanoha and Fate beating her is rather bad.
You don't like unbeatable superheroes, neither do I. They are among the least interesting characters around. How can I care when I know the character has no chance of failing. Worse still is when a character is criticised for having flaws as if people in real life are perfect.
With Chrono his flashback itself may not have had much impact but it did tie in with the whole conspiracy involving Graham and the twins. That in itself wasn't vital but it did provide some backstory that help flesh out the incident, it wasn't just a lost logia and a randomly chosen master but part of wider plot.
As for Arisa, well I only used her as an example to illustrate what I meant by a character support and could have used someone else (I probably should have).
The dislike of Nanofate and of Fate herself could be a backlash against the attention it receives, not in the show but outside of it. Fate is certainly one of the most popular characters and there is a lot of focus on her relationship with Nanoha, so those who prefer other characters (even Nanoha herself since the relationship is usually focused on Fate) would probably react badly to this.
I'll probably post some more on thefanfiction forum but really at the moment I have little to add to it, if I start discussing the movie it's just risks turning it into a hate thread again.
Even longer than I expected but we've mostly discussed what needs to be discussed.
It's true, it doesn't really make much sense. It's one thing if Nanoha were the strongest known mage, but she's really not. There are many other mages in the TSAB with far more experience and who can take her down. Perhaps not when she's an adult in StrikerS but loli Nanoha has no place being Reinforces equal.
It seems like a lot of Nanoha fans only like her because they think she's some overpowered super hero. And I can't stress enough how boring I find that characteristic. It may make for a fun ride, but it doesn't make a good character. It would make Nanoha more of a plot device than an actual character, and it's what the Nanoha boards fight so hard against. So I don't really get what they want. I have a feeling that they would not be happy regardless of how the events unfolded in the movie. They were set on hating it from the start, and they were set on blaming it all on Fate from the start.
The problem with Chrono is that he failed to support the story in both the series and the movie. He has a flashback, sure, but it doesn't go anywhere from there. Would anything in the story be lost if he had no flashback?
As for Arisa, I'll be frank. I don't think the scenes with Arisa did well to explain Nanoha's characterization. At least not nearly as much as the AS-Subforums claim it did. I mean, Nanoha and Arisa had a confrontation between children, and that's supposed to explain Nanoha's reason for going to extreme lengths to help anyone in need? I'm more inclined to think it's just Nanoha's natural protective instinct. Whether or not Arisa sparked it is irrelevant, because it would have came about one way or the other. The first time she actually found some one in need of saving.
That's the problem with the Nanoha boards, they're conditioned to only like the new things. NanoFate is old and stale to them and they want the focus to be on other elements, regardless how important it is to Fate or Nanoha's characterization. So it's all just fluff to them.
I only remember you posting the same review over there that you posted over here. Perhaps a couple other posts. Regardless, Nanya's the one that brought the whole discussion up once more. Only so he could wallow in his own self satisfaction of hating on it. Hating something is all fine and good, but don't shove the hate down other peoples throats. That's all I'm saying.
Sorry it's taken a few days to reply but I wanted to write something better than just "I agree with most of what you have said".
The whole fight against Reinforce scene makes little sense in the series nor does it's equivalent in the movie. In a straight up magical battle neither Nanoha nor Fate should have stood a chance against her even when together. Either that or Reinforce is not the world destroying power I thought.
So how do we do the battle and make it seem at least plausible. Well we could have them lose, it's what would probably happen and I see no shame in it. As long as they gave it their all can we really blame them for not being able to best someone who can destroy worlds.
Still that probably wouldn't go down too well. I have no problem with leads, even heroes, losing it shows that they are not invincible, which is usually just dull. I doubt though many fans would agree with me.
What if Nanoha doesn't actually need to defeat her. She only needs to draw her away from the civilian populated area and towards perhaps a point where an ambush has been set up with some big magical guns (though not the arc-en-ciel that's a bit too big).
I too like Fate for reasons apart from her competency in battle. In fact I prefer a character who can actually lose occasionally, it makes more real more relatable. Even Nanoha doesn't always win, as is evident from her battles with Vita and that mid level mage in the sound stages.
Fate does come across as a character with plenty to explore while Nanoha is more action oriented but I think that there is still something about Nanoha that could be utilised. She may lack Fate's tragic past but she still has a past and there are her motives. Why does she fight so hard, what is it that drives her to try to reach out to her foes even when they try to kill her. In Strikers Jail questioned Fate over her reasons for protecting Erio and Caro, I think Nanoha should also be forced to question why she does what she does.
With the rescue of Nanoha from Reinforce I think it's less that who she was rescued from has changed and more how it was done that they objected to (I'm guessing here).
I personally prefer to use more than two categories for characters as some characters while not being as important as the leads are still more important than others. These are the ones I call secondary.
There are probably two main types of supporting character those who support the story and those who support another character. Chrono is an example of a story support; his contribution to the series was to help flash out the plot with his own story relating to the incident and its past. He also contributed to the story by being the one who uncovered the conspiracy involving Graham (so with that removed his importance in the film was certainly diminished).
Arisa in the first series is a support character, she has little effect on the plot but helps to develop and reveal Nanoha's character. This leads me to the problem of removing stuff without due care to what it does to other parts. Take Strikers and the Lutecia side story. Now as much as I liked it it isn't that important to the main story and could quite easily be removed along with its characters, none of them really have much impact upon the story. Except that they were the main antagonists for Erio and Caro. Without them they would be left with little to do. So we could remove them too except they played an important part in helping to develop Fate's character. Through them we saw Fate's motherly side and her approach to training. It wouldn't really be a wise move to remove Fate as much as some people may want it.
It may have come to your attention that the relationship between Nanoha and Fate is being regarded as fluff. Perhaps it's just me but wasn't that possibly the most important relationship in the entire show. Fate was, after the show started getting good, Nanoha's primary reason behind what she did. It was her attempts to be friends with the girl with the sad eyes that drove her.
With Nanya turning the Fanfic thread to a movie hate thread, I'm not entirely innocent there myself. Most of my posts there have been about the movie and few were complimentary.
It's true. The power levels in Nanoha have become so skewed that Nanoha is somehow expected (by her fanbase) to be able to solo something that has destroyed entire worlds in the past, and can do so again.
Nanoha's power reaches absurd levels when it is most convenient, so when she actually does lose people cry foul. When in reality, she lost to some mid-card mage in one of the A's sound stages. Now if a mid-card mage could take down child Nanoha, and child Nanoha could take down Reinforce...What does that say about Reinforce? It would be a joke to assume she could destroy the earth if she were so easily beaten by a child.
"So why do the anti fate people say the movie favoured her instead of saying that the series favoured Nanoha (who didn't get beaten almost right away)."
Because Nanoha's name is in the title and somehow that voids her from being subject to series favoritism, according to them.
I love Fate but it has nothing to do with how competent she is in battle. I can't deny that she loses a lot of battles compared to Nanoha who seems downright overpowered at times. Yet Fate can get shafted in her battles and she still somehow gets accused of stealing the spotlight from other characters. Fate is fundamentally different from Nanoha. Nanoha always gets to fight the final boss of each season, and she always wins. She's never been that developed (even in the series), in my opinion. Fate on the other hand gets a few battles of her own. She wins some, she loses some, but she's got that extra character depth that originates from her tragic past. There is simply more to explore about her than Nanoha. Having the best of both worlds would be favoritism, and I think both excel at different aspects.
"I try to see where the other side in an argument is coming from and with the rescue I can understand why they were unhappy with it. However there are certain arguments that I simply fail to understand; that of Fate being unimportant is one. "
I just have to wonder, if they were okay with Fate saving Nanoha from Vita (A far weaker character than Reinforce) then why is saving her from Reinforce all of a sudden so terrible? In my opinion, they're just looking for excuses to hate the movie. And they can target anything and everything which was not done identical to the series.
As for Minor characters go, I tend to label the non-major characters as minor ones. You can call them supporting or secondary I guess...It's all similar to me. I always thought that's what a minor character was. A character that supports the main (major) character(s). I don't recall Chrono having any character growth in the series, but you can quote me on this if I'm wrong.
I don't think any are sympathetic, either. I only inferred that Vita was the most brutal in her approach. What they were doing was wrong no matter how you slice it. Perhaps it wouldn't have been so bad if they actually tried to get help and it failed..Then they had to do what they were doing as a last ditch effort. But they refused the help whenever it was given, so it's their own fault, really.
Kaijo and Nanya are problems for different reasons. Kaijo's as hard-headed as a brick wall and only uses Fate when it is convenient to him. For instance, if you liked the movie he will immediately assume you are a huge Fate fan. Because he can't comprehend how else one could like it. And all of his compliments to you for being so open-minded, was more of a jab at some other Fate fans. This being his line of logic --"If PencilP is willing to cut Fate scenes for more Nanoha and Chrono development, then why aren't other Fate fans willing." As for Nanya, you can't have a conversation with him without him showcasing how terrible he thinks the movie is. Just look at the Nanoha general thread on fanfic.net. He turned the thread into a movie hate thread, when the thread wasn't even supposed to be only about the movie. I think they're the main reason for the anti-Fate and movie sentiment on this subforum because after spouting their negativity for so long, people started to believe and agree with them. Doubly so because they're mostly all friends who have known each other for so long. And I can bet they're going to do the same thing in Fanfic.net.
It's a good point that you have made regarding Nanoha's chance against the Book of Darkness. Considering how powerful Reinforce was we should not expect Nanoha or Fate, even when working together, to be able to beat her. In fact realistically they should have been defeated within the first few minutes.
Now that i have thought about it the problem isn't that the movie depowered Nanoha but that A's made her too powerful in it's equivalent scene. Fate was beaten pretty quickly by being absorbed (which makes sense) yet Nanoha is able to hold her own against it.
So why do the anti fate people say the movie favoured her instead of saying that the series favoured Nanoha (who didn't get beaten almost right away).
Then we have the problem, in A's, that Nanoha and Fate are unable to beat Signum and vita who get defeated by two familiars who are defeated by Chrono. The solution the TSAB have for dealing with an extremely powerful lost logia is send in two small girls, one of whom has recently gone through a terrible emotional trauma a familiar and an archaeologist.
All this shows that the series itself was hardly perfect and I think some people are forgetting that. While I did have criticisms of what was changed, mainly in the first half, I am not going to rubbish the movie just because it changed stuff. In fact in the second half I think things were done quite well overall and if anything I'd say it didn't change enough. I'd have liked to have seen it deal with the issues I've raised about the Wolks.
I try to see where the other side in an argument is coming from and with the rescue I can understand why they were unhappy with it. However there are certain arguments that I simply fail to understand; that of Fate being unimportant is one.
Nearly every show has a hierarchy of character importance and Fate is very near the top. The argument that she takes away development from others is wrong on two main grounds. One, that Nanoha's lack of development was because of how her time wasn't as well used and not due to lack of time, two the other characters are not as important. As I wrote about in my review certain character are secondary. We could take the Fate steals their time argument to it logical and extreme conclusion by making the same argument about any character that has more time on screen than another.
"I know you were not fond of the movie either, but I don't see the same condescending tone coming from you;"
Thanks. I try not to force my like or dislike or something onto others. Just because I have an opinion on something doesn't mean others must share it.
I wouldn't call Chrono a minor character, that implies to me more of a bit part like MAriel. Now is not a main one instead I'd label him as secondary. Where it went wrong was that his backstory was badly handled. With Graham's role gone Chrono's backstory had less relevance since he two were closely connected. Now there were time constraints true and it could have been extremely difficult to fit his story in. In that case they should have cut it out entirely. That would risk reducing him down to a minor character but I'd rather have that than lose development or time for someone more important.
I see character importance like this: There are Primary i.e Nanoha,Fate Secondary i.e Arf, Chrono Minor such as Amy, Mariel and bit part i.e characters that usually don't even have a name.
Vita was rather brutal though I find none of the three (Zafira wasn't in that scene though it's arguable whether he'd have acted differently) to be sympathetic. In fact they are among the least sympathetic villains in the entire franchise. I could possibly feel more inclined to like them if they were ever shown actually having to face up to what they did instead of it being seemingly forgotten or ignored.
It's getting really late so I hope you won't mind if I write the rest after I've slept.
As I wrote about before I'll still post on thefanfiction forum but I'll try to avoid the Fate argument where possible. I don't mind people having opinions that differ strongly from mine (even if they are as baffling as Fate should be removed) but I object when they assume that I must also have those opinions. So far in my dealings with them I haven't had that from either Nanya or Kaijo. I got a civil reply from Kaijo who despite obviously not holding the same opinions as I doesn't seem to mind that difference.
I haven't read the entire argument on here I sort of skimmed through the movie thread so things could well have been different in your own dealings with them and I won't comment on those at least until I've read through that thread properly.
>>Nanoha's nerfing in the movie, is a difficult point to asses. I agree with you that it is a bit unrealistic to expect Nanoha, who was unable to beat Vita, to hold up against the Book of Darkness. Still I can understand why her fans were displeased with how it was done. I would have preferred it if it could have been done without Nanoha going from holding her own to getting completely beaten. I also liked the more collaborative way it was done in A's. With Fate and Hayate's being the result of a combined effort. Despite that though the rest of the dream scene I think was better in the movie.
It's completely absurd. Nanoha wasn't worfed and anyone who tries to say otherwise is just looking for baseless reasons to hate on the movie. Nanoha isn't a God, I don't see why she has to be a match for Reinforce, a world destroying anomaly. Even in the series, Nanoha was not on even footting with Reinforce. Hell, when Nanoha used Excellion mode she knocked Reinforce through multiple layers of rock. That never happened in the series. At best, Nanoha was able to temporarily penetrate Reinforces barrier in the series. If Nanoha needed saving against Vita then by all means, she should not be able to solo Reinforce. And Nanoha was saved far into their fight after Reinforce was frustrated and Natch took over. I know you try to take Kaijo and Nanya (and some others...) seriously, but I can't. They blatantly hate the movie because every little detail the movie changed that was in the series is like a knife through the heart to them. Of course, I've had to deal with them for far longer so my patience with them has reached critical failure. And just so you know, none of this is directed at you. I know you were not fond of the movie either, but I don't see the same condescending tone coming from you; acting as if your opinion is the only right opinion. Especially when most the time they're just grasping at straws. And their hate is blind, nothing more.
Nanoha and Fate have equal screen time in the movie (I know, because I added their times up to prove my point to Kaijo), if Fate is able to make the most of her screen time, then why does Nanoha need more screen time in order to fit in her development? Nanoha can either diminish some of her battle time (like Fate did) for more development, or she can keep mostly all of her battles and suffer in the development department. Fate's screen time doesn't need cut to give Nanoha her much needed development. There are some scenes of Fate that could be cut and nothing much would be lost, but it really feels like anti-Fate sentiment at times when certain people claim Fate has too much screen time. And then there is the kicker in that most of Fate's screen time is with Nanoha, so you would effectively be reducing both of their screen time in an attempt to develop Nanoha. I won't even say much about reducing Fates screen time for the sake of Chrono. He was a minor character in the series, and he still is a minor character in the movie. Limiting a major characters screen time for a minor one is absurd, in my opinion.
I will avoid commenting on your description of Fate because then my post really would never end.
It was a good read nonetheless, and I mostly agree with it.
>>Onto the wolks and I'm sorry to keep coming back to this. Vita's rashness makes me more willing to forgive her. None of them had anywhere near Fate's level of excuse. Fate was emotionally broken beyond being able to act rationally and should not be held accountable for her actions. The same dos not count for the Wolkies but Vita out of them comes closest to having the same excuse. She was acting out of emotion more than actual thought.
Well in one way that's true, yet Vita was by far the most brutal of the Wolkenritter in her approach. She has the appearance of a child but she should technically be hundreds of years old. Perhaps her mind never aged past that of a child? I thought Fate was really sympathetic because despite doing the things that she did she was very apologetic about it, and it's not like she was left with a choice in the first place. Vita on the other hand had no remorse. I guess that's the difference to me.
>>I am going to post on thefanfiction forum occasionally but I'll try to avoid the Fate argument.
I took a peak over there after you mentioned it. >>Nanya and Kaijo shitting up that subforum too with their anti-Fate and movie sentiment<< yeah, I was smart to avoid it.
>>I agree, it's just that I can see how it could be seen as favouring Fate.
>>I posted an idea on the cross over forum I'd be interested in what you think about it. (I could have edited this onto a previous post but i wanted to buck the trend of ever longer posts)
Mind linking me to your post? I don't check that thread very often.
There were any number of ways they could have made the Fate saving Nanoha scene work. All I'm saying is that the scene was a result of filling a promise Fate made to Nanoha, and not simply to pander to Fate fans.
Here's an idea for how the rescue could be done without alienating the Nanoha fans (well I'm one myself, she's in my top three Nanoha characters).
It's done mostly how it was in A's; Hayate calls out to Nanoha and Fate for their help, Nanoha blasts the Book of Darkness with a spell while Fate does the same but from the dream world. Here th stage of BOD's defeat is more collaborative as in A's. Fate and Nanoha greet each other now that Fate is out of the dream. However BOD isn't out yet and fires (while Natch takes over) a final blast straight at Nanoha. Fate intervenes and protects her.