We have been doing a little re-shuffling at work to make things more efficient (and in some very reasonable areas too), so things have been busy.
Have been mulling over my "top 10 of the tear 2012" for a few days now, tbh.... Already chimed into the "fave OP and ED of 2012", the "biggest disappointments" and "most pleasant surprises" threads. This has helped clarify my thoughts a little bit at least.
As for Irisu only taking the blame, yes - I agree with you that Hongou is partly at fault (with her I see it as a weakness and an unwillingness to speak up that led to causing others problems), and Tomoe is definitely partly at fault. Tomoe is someone I don't really have a clear read on yet, to be honest - though the remark of how Irisu could possibly make Oreki dance on her palm irked me.... Many of the thoughts on Tomoe were on the wall post you mentioned earlier.
I feel that it's not quite so black and white as that as "really not looking out for anyone but herself".
Yes - there were good motivations and the like intermixed. The question was one of what was her primary underlying movement (which does not omit the possibility to have other good intentions and motivations mixed in at the same time, just in secondary or lower places of priority).
That being said - yes, I am of the opinion that her main priority in her hierarchy of values was self interest, as Oreki's sister pointed out.
Someone can definitely do good for others and even be considerate of others while thus motivated - but still the underlying primary motivation is, I feel self interest. It's not a question of either/or as much of a question of degrees and a hierarchy of values. First place for her is self interest, I think.
You know, though - you might look through the novel tl in full on bakabt, b/c I am basing my angle of things equally on what I read there. For example, during the confrontation of Oreki and Irisu the narrator mentions:
Spoiler for Quote from book:
"By praising my talents, Irisu was merely making me dance to her tune. It was effective, as I ended up creating a work that satisfied her.
"When you said everyone ought to recognize their own talents, was that a
...Despite my strongly worded question, Irisu didn't move one bit. She
looked neither timid nor ashamed.
During the moment of silence, without withdrawing, I quietly thought to
She really does suit her nickname of "the Empress". Recalling what
Satoshi had told me, she was good at manipulating those around her. And
only an Empress could do so without feeling any sense of shame. She
The bolded sections were my highlights.
In retrospect it really seems like my take on Irisu has upset something in you somewhere - believe me when I say it was not intended in any way, shape or form, and I hope it does not "get in the way" of our interaction from here on out.
I guess I just accepted some time back that you see things differently, and that's fine. This is just a work of art/fiction/etc., after all, and to my mind in the long view of things it is not worth insisting on to the extent that any kind of wedge be driven between the two of us. So - I apologize again if I have caused you trouble or disturbance inside....
... Do you really think that Irisu wasn't looking out for anybody but herself?
Come on, Flower. It's one thing to dislike Irisu, but to argue that Irisu was motivated purely by self-interest is silly. Irisu went out of her way to protect Hongou and to ensure that the movie was a success. That's not the actions of a person who doesn't care about anyone but herself.
No, I'm fine with what you wrote on that thread. I mean, I'm not bothered by it. I respect your perspective, and in fairness to you, you're probably consistent with it (I don't recall you praising characters that are very similar to Irisu).
To a certain extent, I just felt like defending Irisu some to (in my view) balance discussion a bit.