Replying to you here since I don't want to drag the ISML thread off-topic...
Spoiler for Putting loli-tsundere discussion in spoiler space to save space:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0
Mikoto is a DFC middle schooler, and younger than Touma. Kuroneko is DFC and clearly Kyousuke’s junior, which she emphasizes by calling him sempai or onii-chan (girl knows her weak spots!).
I'm not sure if a year or two in age difference between a female character, and the male lead of the show she's in, should render her a loli.
I mean, if a 17 year old guy was dating a 15/16 year old girl of average height/build for her age, except the fact she was flat-chested, would you call him a lolicon? To me, he's just a guy who doesn't mind dating a girl with small breasts and outside of his class.
If they weren’t DFC I’d class them as a “cute junior” type, but the combination of factors is sufficient to make them lolis to me (even if Kuroneko is a little borderline).
In fairness to you, I can kind of see Vexx's argument of lolita gothic, She does have that "petite goth girl" look going on in a general sense.
While I am willing to recognize that 17 year old characters like Taiga and Azusa as lolis on the basis of height/build, height can’t be the only path to being a loli because Airi in Ro-kyu-bu is 168cm and I think most would recognize her as a loli, largely on the basis of being a elementary school student.
I agree. I think that height and age are the main factors, with breast size being a possible hint but not a deciding factor. If a teenaged or older character is very short for her age, I'd call her a loli. Any girl character in Elementary school I'd call a loli by virtue of her age (Nanoha and Fate are lolis in the original Nanoha anime by sheer virtue of their age).
But I think that middle school girl characters is where the importance of age vs. height becomes a bit fuzzier. I don't think age alone makes such a girl character a loli, but I'll admit that it is sometimes a factor. If, say, such a girl is of average/build height for her age, but with a flat-chest, and is notably young compared to the (rest of the) main cast, I'd consider her a loli-tsundere.
Mikoto is also fairly shrill at times, which is classic loli-tsun behaviour. Kuroneko is a bit different – she actually has a classic tsun personality combined with some loli/cute junior appeals.
Mikoto may well be a tsundere, but I'm not sure I'd call her a loli-tsundere.
Still, thanks for the discussion.
Putting aside semantics, though, I think we're mostly in agreement.
However you want to categorize characters like Mikoto and Kuroneko, Japan is clearly not tired of them. But quintessential loli-tsunderes, like the KugRie type, is perhaps losing steam in Japan. That doesn't change the fact, though, that Shana was indeed very influential in the world of anime and moe, and that influence has been felt for over half a decade now.
The problem with the Kugamiya tsundere is that they can be high strung, shrill, and abusive, and many shows pump that aspect of their personality for comedy value. Kurisu strikes me as a return to the tradition of characters like Rin Tohsaka, Eri Sachikawa, and Tsugumi Komachi who were a lot more composed.
Asuza follows the Kugamiya formula in some respects - she can be high strung and shrill - but she isn't abusive and as you said she's a little more of a Type B. Kagami is different yet again - she's a very cynical and sarcastic person, but she isn't high strung.
And then there's Kuroneko, who I'd argue kind of merges the classical and Kugamiya streams. She's petite and has a glum attitude to be sure, but in other respects she comes across as closer to Kurisu than say, Shana.
Regarding the cutest anime girl thread, I'd actually break things into three:
most charming: Matsuri
most moe: Nadeko
And a couple other things:
Did you ever realize that your "cutest" and "most charming" characters share a voice actress?
Also, would you say that Mayuri and Kotomi flow from largely the same character archetype?
I agree that Shana is one of the most influential moe girls ever.
Heck, she's the prototype of an entire subclass of tsundere.
I say this with a bittersweet tone, though, because as much as I like Shana I've honestly grown tried of the KugRie-style tsundere, as you probably know from my blog write-up on Kurisu.
I think it was a good character type for awhile, but it feels a bit "played out" to me, and I can't help but wonder if that's partly why Mami won Saimoe 2011 (you can't get much farther from a KugRie tsundere than Mami, lol). At the very least, I think that the anime world could use an one-year break from the KugRie-tsundere, although based on what I've read about, I don't think we'll be getting it.
You're right, though, that Azusa, Kagami, and Taiga are all very different types of tsundere, and so at least Saimoe likes some variety in their winners. Azusa is tsundere towards a group of people, rather than one particular person, which was a very keen observation you once made. Azusa is also more of a Type B tsundere than a Type A one, which I like about her. These are the reasons I'd put her first out of this trio.
So I was looking over the past few years of Anime Saimoe (Japan) results:
2008: Hiiragi Kagami
2009: Aisaka Taiga
2010: Azusa Nakano
Furthermore if you look at this year's AST results, Kuroneko was one of the most popular non-Madoka characters, and Shana and Nagi (Hayate) came extremely close to winning in 2006 and 2007.
1) Otaku really seem to like petite tsundere girls
2) There's probably some truth to my theory that Shana is one of the most influential moe characters ever.
3) Despite all of the characters mentioned falling under the petite tsundere category, there's actually some variety among those picks - Azusa, Kagami, and Kuroneko strike me as quite different from both Kugamiya group and each other.
You know what would have made a great Saimoe final IMO? Mami vs. Homura.
Still, I'll be happy to see Mami win, just as a kind of "we remember" thing. Mami always strikes me as insanely popular given her modest appearances, she actually had the most fanart on most sites I frequent through the show's airing although they've since passed her.
Also glad Lotte didn't make it past the quarter finals. Astarotte's Toy strikes me as more of a refuge in audacity show than a lolicon one (hell, they went with a flat out shotacon cover (NSFW) for the OVA because of the prequel bit between Lotte's mom and Naoya... does that seem like something your average lolicon would buy?) but its widely stereotyped as a boundary pushing lolicon show.
Those cosplay pics were simply fantastic! It's particularly nice (for me) to see Japanese/Asian cosplayers, because that really brings the characters more to life for me since most anime characters are Japanese. Not saying I dislike non-Asian cosplayers, of course, since they sometimes actually fit the overall look of an anime character better (there's also the fact that some anime characters are not Japanese, such as half or more of the Infinite Stratos cast).
Sorry to hear about your girlfriend's sleep deprivation as of late. Hope she's feeling more well-rested soon.
Oh, by the way, concerning your convo with Last Sinner, it's also true that the anime original episode of Ore no Imouto was one that hurt my take on Kirino. I was Ok with her until then, but that did make her seem too much of a Mary Sue, which along with everything else turned me on her a bit (not to mention that her requests in that episode were hilariously bad - A different OP for each and every anime episode of the adaptation of her novel indeed, lol! )
Incidentally, later finding out that Kirino was actually getting defeated regularly in track and field by Americans made me much more sympathetic towards her. That episode, combined with how Kirino is only mid-tier strength (if that) in moe competitions, softened my take on her a lot. I no longer have it in me to anti-vote her.
So it's not Kirino's attitude/personality in and of itself that bothers me, just the idea of everything going her way.
Only cosplay I got out of her this Halloween was "walking dead" due to assignment induced sleep deprivation. I mentioned the idea of a Homura cosplay but I think she thinks there would be some difficulties with the legging and hair style (she doesn't like the braids and glasses versions despite liking Hanekawa Tsubasa).
The sadistic serial killer psychopath (i.e. Caster's master) probably could have been a woman. A much darker Mahiru, say. I will admit, though, that this change would simply give superficial diversity. No big deal, but I don't think it would have hurt.
Lancer's master could have been more charismatic and megalomaniacal (maybe he'll end up being that yet, and if so, my overall take on the masters will improve considerably).
Rin's dad, in general, I'd like to see emote a bit more. A lot of his scenes honestly look like they're literally straight out of a Visual Novel (in that there's not much animation in them, making Rin's dad seem kind of lowkey about everything). The guy kind of feels like a perpetually decaffeinated and more depressed than usual Will Riker (Star Trek: TNG).
It's now clear that the Waver/Rider dynamic would have been undermined by Waver being female, so yeah, I'm now supportive of Waver being male.
I admit it would be hard to squeeze in a Rin type unless you changed the dynamic between Caster and his master (i.e. make his master a horrified Rin type that gets stuck with a sick, twisted Servent).
I accept Kiritsugu and Kirei the way that they are, and in fact, I did like the one intense scene in Episode 1 that focused on how similar they are. Good conflict can arise from that. The problem becomes, though, that if everybody else starts coming off a lot like them, the specialness of the Kiritsugu/Kirei dynamic starts to fade a bit, imo.
Anyway, just some random ramblings there. It's admittedly a bit nitpicky. And hey, if the spectacle of the show keeps up, I might not care at all. Also, if Rider lasts at least 3/4s of the way, I might not care.
The only major issue I've had was that there's a bit too much dialogue - and coming from a hardcore Bakemonogatari fan, that says something. Episode one just plain had too much, while in episode four I felt Saber and Lancer talked too much during their fight, making the proceeding feel a bit unnatural.
How would you change the master's group, though? Replacing Lancer's master would be pretty easy, but the rest of the "cold professional" brigade is Kiritsugu, Kotomine, and Tsokiomi... Kotomine has an established personality and I think there's something to be said for contrasting the cynicism of the other two with the more optimistic attitude of their children.
I generally consider myself pretty good with dialogue and original characters (says the guy who has never written anything more substantial than a 37K word 'draft" for NaNoWriMo 2007), but only with certain kinds of characters and themes. The stuff Gen is doing here doesn't fall within that range.
Also, here, have some moe: http://oreno.imouto.org/post/show/196464/
(I have to admit that that's actually one thing that strikes me as a continuity flaw between Fate/Zero and F/SN. Admittedly I haven't played the game, but I never got the impression that Rin and Sakura actually recognized each other in the anime despite attending the same school.)