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Conversation Between Triple_R and Last Sinner
Showing Visitor Messages 271 to 280 of 373
  1. Last Sinner
    2011-11-28 00:04
    Last Sinner
    Spoiler for Leadup to and start of Fifth War:
  2. Last Sinner
    2011-11-27 23:35
    Last Sinner
    Spoiler for Heavens Feel - The Fourth Holy Grail War, major Fate/Zero content here:
  3. Last Sinner
    2011-11-27 23:30
    Last Sinner
    Finished the Heavens Feel route in Fate/Stay Night a few hours ago. This seems to be the route Nasu put the most effort into, so perhaps one could call it the route most likely to have eventuated in some ways, particularly with the elaborate credits after the Heavens Feel True Ending. Okay, I'll go over it in depth here, since this is the arc that REALLY ties in and explains Fate/Zero. Note this will be mega-spoilers for what will come in Fate/Zero, so read it only if you don't want to wait or you think you won't be able to get hold of the FSN game.

    Spoiler for Heavens Feel route - how it all began 200 years ago:
  4. Last Sinner
    2011-11-25 22:43
    Last Sinner
    Just a couple of points I realised I missed when I woke up.

    7. Humour. They have very different styles of humour. Urobuchi seems to rely either on twisted shock value (e.g. Madoka being bent eight ways from Sunday, Mami losing her head) or on excess behaviou (e.g. Rider being Rider, Gilgamesh being Gilgamesh, Lancer being Lancer). Nasu's comes off more naturally. He's able to do it in several ways - he loves using subtle facial expressions (Rin's seemingly nice smile which is actually devilish or her eyes which are very disarming. Saber's reactions to food provide some amusing faces. Both Saber and Rin have lion-mode faces as well. Fuji-nee has Tiger mode whenever she loses the plot. Sakura embarassed is also hilarious. Rin's ability to say the unexpected so calmly, Saber's serious nature in the most awkward of moments, Ilya being demonic when she looks anything but, Sakura's yandere mode. And Lancer - Nasu's version of Lancer is quite charming and has a hilarious ego. Another particular one is a good deal of the 'scenes' Nasu writes about. His approach to sex seems to be the 'Hmm, this has been too dark lately, let's have some fun while they get it on!' The 1st scene with Saber is probably one of the funniest things I've ever read - Rin yuri dominating Saber (somewhat gently) to get Saber in the mood is just gold.

    8. Intimacy. Urobuchi seems to avoid it big time. I think the bond between Saber and Irisviel is the closest he's come to genuine intimacy in his work. Madoka - Homura is a notable bond but it's simple in its depiction. I don't think Urobuchi can handle intimacy at all so I doubt he can handle love either or having any of his characters be in love. Nasu can, but there's usually tragedy involved in some degree. Saber in FSN, Arcueid and Akiha in Tsukihime - definitely tragic. Rin in FSN, Ciel in Tsukihime - involves a lot of tension and clashing of ideologies. Sakura in FSN, Kohaku and Hisui in Tsukihime - initially chilling because of the dark secrets they hide then eventually uplifting. But within all those, Nasu can still give tender, intimate moments/scenes and build it up over the course of the story. Not to mention Saber gives head like a boss. ^^ It's necessary to avoid a title getting too dark and depressing, which I think Urobuchi will need to do eventually. His approach will only work for so long.
  5. Triple_R
    2011-11-25 13:11
    Triple_R
    Well, that's a mighty impressive assessment. Thanks for the detailed comparison and review! I'll think on it for a bit, and will reply comprehensively once I've had more time to absorb it.

    I will say right now, though, that I'm at least in partial agreement with you. Some of your critiques of Gen are fair ones.
  6. Last Sinner
    2011-11-25 13:02
    Last Sinner
    6. Their outlooks on life. Nasu is a positive person overall. He was a bit slack in his early days but once Type-Moon got going via Tsukihime, Nasu really poured his time and effort into Fate/Stay Night then spent over 5 years convincing Urobuchi to do a work for him, which ended up being Fate/Zero. Nasu's material is somewhat grim and dark, but his protagonists are positive people and good generally prevails in the end, albeit via a lot of tragedy, bloodshed and suffering. Urobuchi...some of the following things he says at the end of the 1st Fate/Zero novel scare me...

    'I am full of hatred towards men's so-called happiness, and had to push the characters I poured my heart out to create into the abyss of tragedy.'

    'Just like no matter what we do we can't stop the universe from getting colder. It is only a
    world that is created through a compilation of 'progresses of common sense'; it can never
    escape the bondage of its physical laws.'

    'The 'tragedy syndrome' is stillcontinuing within me.'

    'Right now, I've finally got a chance to write a tragic ending according to my heart's desire.
    No matter how I display the darkness inside my heart, from an overall look I am nevertheless
    a partner of 'the warrior of love, Nasu Kinoko'.'


    See, even Urobuchi admits it! He can only write about darkness and tragedy in droves while Nasu is able to write about both positivity and negativity. I'm not doubting Urobuchi's ability to sell. But I am questioning his writing quality and his approach to life. Honestly, I think his weaknesses were masked by Shinbo's style and mind-bending visuals.

    If you want proof, I'll show you where you can get the Fate/Zero novels.
  7. Last Sinner
    2011-11-25 12:55
    Last Sinner
    Spoiler:


    Spoiler:


    There's other themes Nasu explores deeply but I digress. I rant like I just did because I adore how Nasu does it. He's able to do his rants but do it in a way that really develops a character and set up character relations or the plot. And he does it with so much feeling and detail. The themes within Fate/Stay Night are the equal biggest reason I've been playing the game so frenetically lately. He's also very effective at it in Tsukihime, which was darker and more graphic than Fate/Stay Night.

    Urobuchi's writing style is not that conducive to thematic discussion. His themes seem very simple in comparison in his works - fighting for someone (which seems to be the money-marker sentiment in modern anime that otaku love and is simple enough for them to understand), a toned-down version of the downside of heroism (which Nasu does in far more detail), the concept of existence and resetting (Serial Experiments Lain covered those ideas well before he did), friendship (which just about any anime does). I find more romance and depth to Nasu's themes - Urobuchi's are too simple and underdeveloped for me. He relies to much on shock value to cover his weaknesses IMO.
  8. Last Sinner
    2011-11-25 12:53
    Last Sinner
    4. And to back up points 2 and 3, Nasu loves dialogue. It's one of the main reasons I get that intimate, engaging feeling when I read Nasu's writing. He'll bother to give second tier characters enough time to speak to allow the reader to appreciate them. When a scene needs to be very immersive/tense, Nasu will switch to narrative more, particularly in battles. Nasu will let the scene do the talking and keep dialogue sharp but effective/amusing. Urobuchi avoids dialogue ALL THE TIME. Trust me...I don't know how Ufotable pull out the dialogue they do for the anime version, because it's just not present in the novels! When he does dialogue, it's mainly very blunt or one short sentence followed by far more narrative. You know the first battle scene where those involved talk A LOT in the anime? (Episodes 4-5) Guess what - in the first novel, where that scene happened - next to no dialogue! It's just bewildering - it's fine for immersion into the setting and the mood, but it's so damn hard understanding what the characters are like the way Urobuchi writes! Honestly, I'm scratching my head as to how Ufotable have extracted what they have thus far. This is a damn hard job indeed.

    5. THEMES. Nasu and Urobuchi take different approaches and then some. Nasu loves to discuss themes in depth. In the Fate/Stay Night game, Nasu talks about the idea of being a hero from several perspectives and the grim reality of it despite the idealism that is associated with being a hero. I mean, REALLY talks about it! The Fate route (Saber's route) details the betrayl and regret Saber feels from being King Arthur and that no matter how selfless, just and moral she was - she was always alone and never got any reward or fulfillment for her countless good deeds, so she never felt a single moment of happiness in her life as Arturia. Shirou is very similar as he is also a completely selfless person, but learning what happened to Saber makes him question the idealism of being a hero and want him to show that while heroism is ultimately unrewarded, it is doing the deed that is the fulfilling part and that Saber should learn to let herself enjoy something. Of course, Shirou is guilty of the same problems - he wants to be Saber's hero but has no consideration for himself and doesn't seem to enjoy his life unless he's doing something for others. This is why Shirou and Saber come to blows so much in the Fate route before they are eventually able to get to the other and resolve their feelings by the final climax.

    Unlimited Blade Works goes deeper and darker. Rin actually has a big heart despite what a lot of people think when they label her a typical tsundere. She is not a typical tsundere...Rin is the embodiment of Nasu's views on magic and power in general. Nasu uses Rin to demonstate that the life of a magus (aka those that seek power) is to constantly walk a path that is filled with death and tragedy. Rin is required to kill her heart to a certain degree in order to be a skilled magus and she earnestly believes it is essential to survive. But despite that, Rin is still a fairly positive person - she tries to keep as many people as possible away from the Holy Grail War and she values her life as well as the little things in every day that keep her going despite the grim nature of her life. Shirou's ideology is the exact opposite of hers - he is positive and selfless but ultimately his selflessness always puts him in situations he shouldn't survive, plus the way Kiritsugu failed to steer Shirou properly on the world of magic is also a real issue. This is why Rin is angry a lot of the time - Shirou utterly clashes with her views/ideals and knows he's a sitting duck, so she feels compelled to ally with Shirou to get them through the hell they're in. Rin provides the guidance and stability Shirou needs while Shirou keeps Rin's heart from growing cold. Also within Unlimitied Blade Works is the Shirou-Archer relationship, which was completely ignored in that terrible adaptation in 2006 by Deen, as well as much more detail on Rin and Ilya.
  9. Last Sinner
    2011-11-25 12:50
    Last Sinner
    I've completed 2 of the 3 routes in Fate/Stay Night now, so I feel somewhat prepared to point out some key differences in how Nasu wrote Fate/Stay Night + other titles and how Urobuchi wrote Fate/Zero.


    1. Nasu writes from a first-person perspective. This tends to give more character description and more emotive content. Urobuchi writes from a third-person perspective. His style fleshes out the setting more and description of characters is far less than what Nasu does.

    2. To be frank - I find that Nasu is able to be stark when needed yet but when he wants to focus on the characters, he gives them the focus rather than the setting and gives them warmth/power. Urobuchi's ability to describe setting is relatively strong, but when it comes to the characters, he falters....when it comes to characters like Rider (F/Z version), I honestly couldn't feel that outrageous, manly, hilarious guy I see in the anime at all. Ditto for what other characters should feel like. Characters and making the reader care/be enthralled by them seems to be a big weakness for Urobuchi.

    3. Motivations/writing style. In a nutshell - I can very intimately feel how much Nasu cares for the characters he writes about - even when he inflicts hell on them, he does it with regret and tries to keep a character's integrity intact. As for Urobuchi - his character descriptions are clinical and so utterly cold, even in the scenes that should be thrilling/hilarious. I'd dare to say Nasu is a writer that does it for the love of his craft and because he enjoys the Type-Moon universe so much. Urobuchi is doing it - as he has admitted in interviews - for entertainment purposes.
  10. Triple_R
    2011-11-25 01:23
    Triple_R
    Just following your VM conversation with 0utf0xZer0, and wanted to comment a bit on it.

    I can confirm that Sailor Moon was absolutely huge in Canada. A major reason being that it aired on a great timeslot on a popular station back in the 1990s: Around 4 PM or so (i.e. right after school) on YTV (Youth TeleVision). YTV is a very popular station in Canada for kids and teenagers.

    My sisters, who aren't particularly into anime at all, are nonetheless huge Sailor Moon fans. One of them even dressed up as Sailor Moon for Halloween one year.

    Sailor Moon, and Pokemon, are pretty much household names in Canada. They've genuinely transcended the anime fandom where I live. Sailor Moon is pretty much as well known as Superman or Batman where I live, that's how big she is here.

    However, localization was no doubt a factor here. Almost everybody getting English names did help.

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