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Conversation Between Archon_Wing and Last Sinner
Showing Visitor Messages 91 to 100 of 273
  1. Archon_Wing
    2013-01-03 22:14
    Archon_Wing
    Quote:
    Rider - I'm going to be blunt. I truly felt Rider was a device to be the attention-grabber when the more important characters in the title were at their dullest and the title couldn't afford them to take up that much screen time, so Rider flaunting in S1 and early S2 was a gap-filler because there certainly hasn't been that many legitimately GAR characters in recent times. But once the main characters FINALLY decide to come out and play, it becomes clear Rider is close to all talk and one of the weaker Servants, which really undermines his GARness. It doesn't even come close to Archer's last stand in FSN. Rider had the potential to be awesome yet in the end turned out to his bark was far more than his bite. Real shame.
    I agree that the fight was anticlimatic and he stole the show in season 1. However, he was going against the strongest of the bunch and it's not about the power that determines one's value of a character. Though I personally found it interesting because Alexander the Great never really cared about battles he could win too. He was actually a terrible empire builder and planner. But it was all about the thrill of living that Rider summarizes. But sure, I'll take that too.

    Quote:
    Lancer - Now here was one of the characters I was looking forward to until I read far enough in the light novels. For one of the legitimately cool characters who seemed to have big potential, boy was he tossed aside. Okay, I figured a fate that sullied his honor was inevitable. But yikes...way to utterly rubbish the character. Lancer was wasted. He was merely excess baggage to Urobuchi and a way to make the pursuit of honor be a folly one.
    Yea he just wasn't very interesting.

    Quote:
    Saber - the complete anti of Urobuchi. He didn't know how to handle Saber and it showed. Made into the butt end of everyone's hate in episode 11. Fades into the background rather quickly in S2 and ends up being more of an errand girl instead. Relying on gadgetry and the like to keep Saber relevant is rather petty. As for where Urobuchi took Saber, nothing different than from what Nasu had done before but seemed to relish the opportunity to make her look weak. Utterly wasted potential.
    Personally, I found it intresting how Saber clashes with Kitsurugu and the lack of closeness between master in servant. It's why Irisviel and her formed a good a team.

    And I wouldn't say necessarily that episode 11 made her look bad. The other two have their own levels of hypocrisy after all.
  2. Archon_Wing
    2013-01-03 22:13
    Archon_Wing
    Wow... okay.

    Quote:
    It was clear from the get-go that he was delusional and throwing himself away for nothing. Good intentions or not, committing evil for the sake of good intentions is the actions of a complete fool who deserves their own destruction. Watching Kariya be trolled all series is not something I can sympathise with since it was so bleeding obvious he made the wrong choices and ended up achieving nothing.
    It was only clear from the get go of a third person perspective. It's only obvious because the narration shows us that. Your judgement of him is out of context.

    Quote:
    Kiritsugu had a role but aside from the 2 flashback episodes, I really didn't give a damn about him at all. Again, someone who was able to come to the conclusion killing some people would save others was destined for oblivion. Killing can never lead to happiness. The rationalisation that it can requires a mentality as juvenile as Light. Anyone associated with Kiritsugu seemed to act in the hope that one day he'd see how wrong he was. For the sake of the whole story and what would happen in FSN, he eventually did. But for someone who threw away their humanity and killed their own father with such absence of feeling - I can't feel sympathy for that. Kiritsugu was a victim of a cruel world. But if you let it get to you so easily and commit cruelty in return, you are merely repeating the cycle and becoming everything that you despised and wished to destroy. Kiritsugu was someone who wished to be a hero but due to his own stupid decisions, he became the anti-hero. His origins were interesting but the product itselff was dull. Absolutely dull and juvenile.
    That's fine if you don't care about him but it's not like he had much luxury. It's easy to judge from our comfortable location. His personality lacked but that was due to the product of his development.

    The story was never intent on glorifying his actions. Considering what a disaster it led to... but fine we'll just let this pass.

    Quote:
    Kotomine eventually became a worthy antagonist but taking so damn long to become remotely interesting to do so and having Gilgamesh being the one pulling the strings. The product at the end of the show is well set up for the awesome bastard he is in FSN. But that doesn't make up for the fact he was an utter bore for so damn long and that he was utterly easy for Gilgamesh to manipulate. I can't care about someone who initially whined the same way as Shinji Ikari. Really, I feel that Urobuchi was living himself during Kotomine at this point in his life and had a ball with him. However, Kotomine had a point and it was fulfilled. That can't be disputed.
    Whining? Kotomine really had no freedom or will of his own. He was just confused by the morals that were taught for him and then he chose evil. That's why he's a villain and he was easy to be manipulated by Gilgamesh because it allowed him to do what he truly desired too. Gilgamesh was the catalyst so to speak.
  3. Last Sinner
    2013-01-03 21:43
    Last Sinner
    Quote:
    And I will have to disagree with you on Urobuchi and there's plenty of emotion that runs through the works I've seen with him. It's actually the people who give darker portrayals of the world that have the most emotion, such as the likes of Tomino and such... even if they let being off their meds get the best of them. And it's also why they are effective in portraying situations of war where those sense of morals get lost and only the truly virtuous make sacrifices to keep them.
    Okay, maybe I should re-phrase that his emotional range is very limited and repetitive to the point it becomes numbs and de-values what happens. And while the methods of Urobuchi and Tomoino are perhaps somewhat fitting for what they write about…I will always challenge that Urobuchi’s claim that abyssal endings are the only good endings and the only way to write. That is absolute crap. There are other writers in the same medium as him that can also portray hellish situations or put a few good characters amidst a universe of evil ones but not use the same methods as him! Nasu Kinoko, Naoki Urusawa, Satoshi Kon, Yoshioka Abe, Hiroyuki Morioka, Leiji Matsumoto. They’re writers and directors that were able to portray hellholes and how utterly cruel humanity could be in times of war or just because humans are human. They didn’t need to take being nihilistic to a gratuitous level though. They could find meaning in destruction/loss but didn’t need to make it something to get off from. They didn’t just merely heap death and suffering onto their characters. They were able to find various forms of meaning and ways for morality to persevere. And none of them had to be misogynistic, either.

    Quote:
    But being dark and edgy doesn't guarantee you success either; it can just be an exercise in nihilism. Kitsurugu utterly failed to live up to his ideals because he valued practicality and cold blooded utilitarianism because a cruel world taught him that it's the way to succeed. But being amoral led to bad thing; maybe even worse things. And so he finds Shirou, who he'd install ideals into that would finally be able to win on the moral and physical grounds too.
    Well, yeah, I can agree with you on that. Still doesn’t make me care about Kiritsugu one bit, though.

    Quote:
    The idealistic is protected by the cynic who allows the former to carry out what they want to do, after all, is a theme I find in his works.
    Isn’t that just a cheap, juvenile way to justify why one is the way they are and that they actually despise those who can actually be happy or find a way for the better things in life to persevere?

    Quote:
    But since I like Psycho-Pass too, I guess there's just not a common ground we can find here.
    Fourth-rate portrayl of admitted replication of Blade Runner world. Third rate portrayl of Minority Report scenario. Backflip on character styles and making them as archetypical and generic as modern times could be. And yeah, seeing a woman raped, then humiliated, then having someone murdered in front of her and covered in their blood, then about to be executed but saved at the last minute by fluke is taking things too damn far. When events like that are treated as entertainment tools and accepted as such, I can’t abide. Not can I abide by Blade Runner being utterly cheapened.

    But we are who we are. Each to their own. You’ve explained your side. I’ve explained mine. Respect your right to have your stance. I’ll leave it at that. Hope no offense is taken. I haven't taken any from you.
  4. Last Sinner
    2013-01-03 21:42
    Last Sinner
    Saber - the complete anti of Urobuchi. He didn't know how to handle Saber and it showed. Made into the butt end of everyone's hate in episode 11. Fades into the background rather quickly in S2 and ends up being more of an errand girl instead. Relying on gadgetry and the like to keep Saber relevant is rather petty. As for where Urobuchi took Saber, nothing different than from what Nasu had done before but seemed to relish the opportunity to make her look weak. Utterly wasted potential.

    Caster - Interesting use of one of history's bastards. However, ended up being a gap filler moreso than Rider.

    Tokiomi - Zzzzzzzzzzzz......Zzzzzzzzzz.........Zzzzzzzzz.... Oh wait, was I meant to say something? Fine....yeah he set Rin up to be ready for the reality of the world and her future. He was the embodiment of a clinical, pragmatic mage. However...doesn't affect the fact he did flock all the entire way up to his utterly befitting dull and humiliating demise. If he didn't have his eye on the prize all the time and actually bothered to take a closer look at those around him, maybe he wouldn’t have been so pitiable. But really, since he did flock all and was so dull to boot, no sympathy.
    Archibald & Sola – Befitting end to Archy, I guess. For someone who was so utterly confident in himself and mocking everyone else, he sure let everyone wrap him around their little finger, didn’t he? And the episode of his demise was utterly stupid….how could he not see the damn outcome? Anyone that gullible deserves what they got. But Sola was utterly cast aside. The potential for something more interesting to happen with her and Lancer existed, but since Urobuchi wouldn’t have a clue about women or such emotions, of course she was merely reduced to amputation. Whatever….
    Maiya – Okay, harsh childhood, harsh life, get it. But again…you had a choice…you chose your path and you got what you deserved. And you just weren’t interesting.
    Waver – Well, perhaps it’s nice to know someone actually had their head screwed on right somewhat and didn’t get royally screwed despite that. In way over his head but gradually manned up and didn’t let the situation get to him. He still wasn’t that interesting, though.
    Rin – The existence of a once na´ve and happy Rin is explained and the events that led to her no longer being so and being the type of person in FSN is established and actually done well overall. Unfortunately, people bitched about this more than almost anything with this title…
    Sakura – Urobuchi didn’t have a clue how to handle her. I don’t know whether people will feel sympathetic for her at all. I don’t think most people aka those unfamiliar with the FSN game or the fate awaiting her have a clue as to her importance or what she suffers in silence. That scene in Episode 1 permanently creeped me out, it went too damn far. Referring to it was fine but it didn’t have to be freaking shown…and as for the final episode, the way it was done could almost be misinterpreted as though Sakura pushed Kariya into the pit rather than Kariya falling. And the fact Urobuchi didn’t show Zouken doing what perhaps was one of the most important actions in that Grail War in the aftermath of its destruction and what that meant for Sakura really makes me wonder. Are they shying away from it because a Heavens Feel adaptation is on the cards? Or did he simply not care? Either way, Sakura was utterly undermined and her significance was left unclear. Anyone not familiar with FSN will wonder why she was even there.
    Irisviel – I guess Urobuchi did allow one woman to be a woman and for Saber to be her knight/the only person the other could ever associate with or even love if it had been a different time and better circumstances. Since Irisviel really didn’t have much choice or rights full stop, she is worthy of empathy. She was someone that utterly understood the true nature of a person and was someone that couldn’t condone wrongdoing, although she was powerless to stop it. But all it took was that scene of Irisviel shells reminiscent of Rei in Eva to utterly creep me out….She did fulfil her purpose though.
    Shirley – One of the other few deserving of empathy. But her naivete was a bit hard to imagine for someone her age. Terrible and sympathetic fate but really she should have known better.
    Natalia – I’d consider her worthy of empathy too. After all, despite her virtually nihilistic way of life, she found a way to be maternal and be the only person Kiritsugu could ever rely on in a parental or mentor-like way. Her fate was what happens to any in her profession some day, but she took it with class and never complained once. That counts for something.
  5. Last Sinner
    2013-01-03 21:41
    Last Sinner
    Quote:
    I agree that Saber was a bit subpar in Fate/Zero
    Saber is as much a character that is the anti of what Urobuchi believes that could possibly exist. He never would have understood how to handle that woman. The motorcycle was amusing, though. Aside from that, the misogyny was glaring and he tarnished Saber so very much. There's a reason people sided with Riber and trashed Saber in droves after Episode 11.

    Quote:
    Kariya was actually really good. I felt sorry for him and knew that his way was wrong but it shows how good intentions can pave the road to hell.
    It was clear from the get-go that he was delusional and throwing himself away for nothing. Good intentions or not, committing evil for the sake of good intentions is the actions of a complete fool who deserves their own destruction. Watching Kariya be trolled all series is not something I can sympathise with since it was so bleeding obvious he made the wrong choices and ended up achieving nothing.

    quote]I thought every character had their role, though certainly there were roadbumps.[/quote]

    Kiritsugu had a role but aside from the 2 flashback episodes, I really didn't give a damn about him at all. Again, someone who was able to come to the conclusion killing some people would save others was destined for oblivion. Killing can never lead to happiness. The rationalisation that it can requires a mentality as juvenile as Light. Anyone associated with Kiritsugu seemed to act in the hope that one day he'd see how wrong he was. For the sake of the whole story and what would happen in FSN, he eventually did. But for someone who threw away their humanity and killed their own father with such absence of feeling - I can't feel sympathy for that. Kiritsugu was a victim of a cruel world. But if you let it get to you so easily and commit cruelty in return, you are merely repeating the cycle and becoming everything that you despised and wished to destroy. Kiritsugu was someone who wished to be a hero but due to his own stupid decisions, he became the anti-hero. His origins were interesting but the product itselff was dull. Absolutely dull and juvenile.

    Kotomine eventually became a worthy antagonist but taking so damn long to become remotely interesting to do so and having Gilgamesh being the one pulling the strings. The product at the end of the show is well set up for the awesome bastard he is in FSN. But that doesn't make up for the fact he was an utter bore for so damn long and that he was utterly easy for Gilgamesh to manipulate. I can't care about someone who initially whined the same way as Shinji Ikari. Really, I feel that Urobuchi was living himself during Kotomine at this point in his life and had a ball with him. However, Kotomine had a point and it was fulfilled. That can't be disputed.

    Gilgamesh - I guess there's not much I can say that wasn't done right with Gilgamesh. But hey, considering how much of a foundation Nasu had set up already, it's not like Urobuchi did anything with Gilgamesh that Nasu wouldn't have. Still, the bastard was done as he should be. Can't say anything bad about this one.

    Rider - I'm going to be blunt. I truly felt Rider was a device to be the attention-grabber when the more important characters in the title were at their dullest and the title couldn't afford them to take up that much screen time, so Rider flaunting in S1 and early S2 was a gap-filler because there certainly hasn't been that many legitimately GAR characters in recent times. But once the main characters FINALLY decide to come out and play, it becomes clear Rider is close to all talk and one of the weaker Servants, which really undermines his GARness. It doesn't even come close to Archer's last stand in FSN. Rider had the potential to be awesome yet in the end turned out to his bark was far more than his bite. Real shame.

    Lancer - Now here was one of the characters I was looking forward to until I read far enough in the light novels. For one of the legitimately cool characters who seemed to have big potential, boy was he tossed aside. Okay, I figured a fate that sullied his honor was inevitable. But yikes...way to utterly rubbish the character. Lancer was wasted. He was merely excess baggage to Urobuchi and a way to make the pursuit of honor be a folly one.
  6. Archon_Wing
    2013-01-03 14:28
    Archon_Wing
    I agree that Saber was a bit subpar in Fate/Zero

    Kariya was actually really good. I felt sorry for him and knew that his way was wrong but it shows how good intentions can pave the road to hell.

    I thought every character had their role, though certainly there were roadbumps.

    And I will have to disagree with you on Urobuchi and there's plenty of emotion that runs through the works I've seen with him. It's actually the people who give darker portrayals of the world that have the most emotion, such as the likes of Tomino and such... even if they let being off their meds get the best of them. And it's also why they are effective in portraying situations of war where those sense of morals get lost and only the truly virtuous make sacrifices to keep them.

    But being dark and edgy doesn't guarantee you success either; it can just be an exercise in nihilism. Kitsurugu utterly failed to live up to his ideals because he valued practicality and cold blooded utilitarianism because a cruel world taught him that it's the way to succeed. But being amoral led to bad thing; maybe even worse things. And so he finds Shirou, who he'd install ideals into that would finally be able to win on the moral and physical grounds too.

    The idealistic is protected by the cynic who allows the former to carry out what they want to do, after all, is a theme I find in his works. But since I like Psycho-Pass too, I guess there's just not a common ground we can find here.
  7. Last Sinner
    2013-01-03 11:49
    Last Sinner
    I personally felt Kiritsugu's backstory in 18 and 19 were the only episodes in S2 I actually felt positive about. The ending is okay...it does a reasonable job of linking. There are still some linking issues - a couple in particular are just utterly cruel and for Urobuchi's own satisfaction. The final words of Urobuchi after the 4th and final light novel end chill me. Nasu seems content overall but I will never be able to shake the feeling that Fate/Zero was more about Urobuchi unloading than making a prequel and that Nasu would have done it better. I swear Kotomine in the F/Z timepoint is Urobuchi personified at times.

    The biggest issue I have with it all is not Urobuchi himself. It's the characters...I find very few of them to be interesting at all. And those that were for me (Saber, Lancer, Kiriya) were treated like absolute crap. My other big issue is the whole series is utterly devoid of emotion of any kind. It doesn't matter if the biggest bastard or most innocent person died. It was always the same feeling, same outcome, same thing over and over. It's all Urobuchi seems capable of doing. I don't get what people get from that or whether distractions kept them entertained long enough to be able not to care.

    I'm not calling Fate/Zero bad. I just know it could have been better. Not just in anime form, but in light novel form. As someone who loved Fate/Stay Night in game form, Fate/Zero feels more like a slap in the face. With what's eventuated with Psycho Pass, Urobuchi continues to give me endless rage.

    I might have to play Fate/Stay Night routes in full to move on. But I've still got a few 2012 titles to watch before that can happen.
  8. Archon_Wing
    2013-01-03 11:28
    Archon_Wing
    Well I think it was a bit rushed but Fate/Zero's ending was a great way to connect to Fate/Stay Night. Sorry that you don't feel the same; though we obviously differ on Uborochi.
  9. Last Sinner
    2013-01-03 11:07
    Last Sinner
    I'm gradually assembling something to send you. It will take some time.

    And I need time to detoxify....I finally willed myself to watch Fate/Zero S2 tonight...and finished it....and I feel sick. Absolutely sick....I don't think there will ever be a person I will ever hate more or want to kill more than Urobuchi. Even if Okada Rule 34'd all my worst nightmares and put them in the one show, had Anno directing and Tomino storyboarding...I'd still hate Urobuchi more...
  10. Archon_Wing
    2012-12-28 07:43
    Archon_Wing
    Oh Katsuragi of course, though I think describing that has nothing to do with that show. =p

    I don't like GC but I still brought up Tsugumi.

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