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Conversation Between Arabesque and Ledgem
Showing Visitor Messages 1 to 10 of 14
  1. Arabesque
    2012-08-09 08:41
    Arabesque
    Things are starting to look up again after a rough couple of months where I was stressed out a lot. But things are much better now ^^

    Well, I hope that things go well with your classes, and hope we see you again once it gets to be less busy.
  2. Ledgem
    2012-08-07 17:50
    Ledgem
    Thanks for the message! I've been well, but classes just started yesterday so things are about to get incredibly busy. I'll probably disappear from the forums for a while.

    How have you been?
  3. Arabesque
    2012-08-07 12:41
    Arabesque
    Hey, just dropping by to say hi and welcome back How have things been?
  4. Arabesque
    2012-03-27 21:01
    Arabesque
    I suppose that Guilty Crown might not be suited at least at first to fans trying to get back into the habit of watching shows. Though of course it would be different depending on the case, and what one wants to get out a shows they watch.
    Quote:
    From the start I didn't view him as wallowing in self-pity, so much as pondering his life.
    I don't know, a lot of his dialogue made it pretty clear to me that he seemed to despise the sort of person he was at the starting portion of the series and his desire to change himself. He did get to the point where he thought about his life so far later on in the show, but I didn't think it was that thought out imo

    I suppose the thing about Shu ruling with an iron fist might have to do with the show exploring the different styles of leadership, but maybe because the way the anime lead to that segment was suspect (the void ranking reader) or because the way Shu ended up leading the students (not very efficient or in a reasonable and logical manner) that I ended up not buying into it. Or maybe that was the point, that Shu wasn't meant to be a cold hearted leader who ruled everyone as an autocratic ruler and thus failed when he tried on that mantel, and only succeeded when he took on the job a martyr, where he was able to lead others by throwing himself at the front line and paving the way for them. Though to be honest, since I had seen such themes brought up recently in another anime I watched, Fate/Zero, that might be on mind ...
    Quote:
    And when he came back, I felt that it was a matter of him making peace with himself, and making peace with the idea that he would sacrifice himself for everyone else.
    That's a good way to think about it, actually. I can see why this might have struck me as being a Jesus analogy, since he had made peace with himself and decided to dedicate his life for the others survival.
    Quote:
    I suppose my frustration arises when it seems like people are more concerned with analyzing the execution of the show than with the show itself... does that make any sense? Maybe it doesn't, and I just don't like it when people harp on a show and pick it apart. I don't really know.
    Actually, it does make a lot of sense. Like I said, nitpicking a series and taking it apart just to find faults within it no matter how small and then bring them at the top of every argument against the show is honestly the sort of behavior I find ludicrous. I have no idea what does anyone find enjoyable about doing something like that, and it's clearly the wrong way to go about anything in life.

    The point about people analyzing the execution more than the show itself though ... I think that where we are right now with our entertainment, with many stories all across the world now sharing similar settings, character archetypes, themes and overreaching story arcs, I think that there has been an increase in the value of seeing how well did a show manage to convey it's message and themes and how it ended playing out, since it would end up being the main factor nowadays in making it stand out against similar stories.

    That's not to say that it needs to be the central point of a shows review/analysis, but more of an important factor that needs to considered alongside the story itself.
  5. Ledgem
    2012-03-27 20:17
    Ledgem
    Quote:
    But being different isn't the entire reason why I think Guilty Crown might sync well with most newcomers. It has a nice looking world, with...
    That's a good point, and you could be quite right. The only reason I stated my opinion as I did is because of my experience after being out of anime for a year or two. Even as someone with days' worth of viewing time behind me, I had a hard time coming back. As I think I've already mentioned to you, I gently got back into it by going with a show that was a bit less... stereotypically anime. From that experience, my thought was that people could probably grow to enjoy anime. It's just a matter of getting around shocking them first.

    But I guess it was a silly thing to say Everyone is different, and everyone will have an ideal gateway series that is different from everyone else. The premise of Guilty Crown would probably appeal to quite a number of people, and the artwork and animation are sure to hold people's eyes. I suppose it would make for a good gateway.

    Quote:
    Of course, it all comes down to how the thing was managed, and honestly ... I never felt like I had come to care for Shu like I might have felt with different protagonists in similar shows, because while his changes where justifiable, I always felt like he took each change to the end of the spectrum.
    I agree with your take on the message of the series (which I didn't quote here). You have a nice way of stating the big picture stuff - you did something similar with the explanation behind Arisa I connected with Shu, and interpreted his behaviors a bit differently. From the start I didn't view him as wallowing in self-pity, so much as pondering his life. When he started to rule with an iron fist, it seemed to me that he did so with pain; he still cared for everyone. I found that segment to be particularly fascinating, actually, as I was thinking about styles of leadership a few days before I watched it. And when he came back, I felt that it was a matter of him making peace with himself, and making peace with the idea that he would sacrifice himself for everyone else.

    And for your next post, perhaps it's unfair of me to say that outer analysis is bad. If looking at the overall message behind the series and things like symbolism interpretation counts as analysis, then I do it too. I suppose my frustration arises when it seems like people are more concerned with analyzing the execution of the show than with the show itself... does that make any sense? Maybe it doesn't, and I just don't like it when people harp on a show and pick it apart. I don't really know.
  6. Arabesque
    2012-03-27 20:00
    Arabesque
    For your second point, I'll say I agree with you largely that the most important discussion of any series has to be, of course, about the events within the show itself and what goes on screen. However, I want to say something about the other end
    Quote:
    But what good is it to discuss those?
    I believe I might have mentioned this to you before back when I told you about how I got into anime, but I believe that thinking about shows critically not only adds to the enjoyment that I take from a show, but also gives me additional appreciation to not only how much work the creative teams had placed into the making of the anime, but also gives me insight into what is the message the anime is trying to convey to me as a viewer.

    Now, I agree with you that over analyzing an anime can in fact lower the enjoyment of watching it, and you will find some sort of flaw within the show in someway. I had shows in the past where I overlooked a lot of these flaws because I found myself enjoying the whole more than enough for me to ignore those rather minor screw ups. Hanasaku Iroha, Casshern SINS, Fullmetal Alchemist, The World God Only Knows for example are all shows that if I think about them, there is going to be areas where I think that it could have been much better handled or that there things that bothered me here and there. But because the rest of the story is fantastic, because the good outweighs the bad, because I can't help but love the show, I can let things slide as long as it doesn't screw around with the show in some unrecoverable way. I can understand that if you go and analyze a show to death, it would no longer be called watching, but butchering an anime.

    However, critically thinking about a show means I'm giving a show thought, it means I'm looking to see if things make sense within the show, if the writer had payed attention or if had cared about what he was doing, if the cast had been given enough time for them to develop and for me to care once the story hits it climax, and if I can support the message the anime is saying if there is one to be found. It allows me to see the work in a different light entirely, and adds to my enjoyment of the anime, since I could then say that the staff had placed a lot of thought into making the show and how everything clicked together seamlessly.

    I don't start critiquing an anime expecting to find it imperfect and then proceed to tear it apart(nothing is perfect to start off with) but to help me better understand the show and see how much thought was put into it.

    Sorry about writing too much btw >_<
  7. Arabesque
    2012-03-27 19:59
    Arabesque
    Quote:
    Probably not.
    While you say that (and raise a good point about Western entrainment, even if I don't entirely agree with it), you actually pointed something that makes me think that Guilty Crown might just be a better gateway series for newcomers afterall
    Quote:
    Those mixed elements in a series (particularly the endings) are what really drew me into anime when I was first exposed to it many years ago


    You are right, of course, that the show might turn off some (especially those who are more accustomed to the more ''perfect ending'' styled stories) since it is different from the sort of media they had grown to watch. But like you pointed out, sometimes newcomers into anime start off looking for something different. I'm not going to generalize (though I think that might not be possible with my question) every person who might start wanting to get into anime as people who are looking for a different type of entertainment (I should know, since I'm someone who had practically grown up with anime, so it could be part of a childhood nostalgia and wanting to get back into the hobby, or maybe it could be something as simple as wanting to watch something cool looking or trying to understand another culture through their media, maybe even just wanting to get a taste of something exotic) but I'd think that the mixture found in Guilty Crown, the ambiguity, the sad and bittersweet events and what little precious happiness there is to be found, will give newcomers a good idea of what anime is about. Sure, it wont give them an idea of what ALL shows will be like, but they can get a clearer image of what they are getting themselves into, what sort of themes are common in anime, what sort of structure do these stories take, how do they usually end etc.

    But being different isn't the entire reason why I think Guilty Crown might sync well with most newcomers. It has a nice looking world, with nice character designs and an interesting looking setting. It has a good score, an action element, with a mecha twist even. There are so much that a newcomer might be drawn in that they would end up getting interested in the series.

    I can't really answer your question about why some are not satisfied with the way the conclusion of Shu's character arc, and I'm not sure if it does have with people wanting to use anime as an escapist fantasy and thus would rather see stories where the hero triumphs over the odds against him and gain a sizable reward at the end for all his hard work, or if it really has to do with a shift in the way anime endings had been handled in recent year (I don't believe that's the case, personally). But for me, I had more of an issue with how his development was handled more than the planned course it had taken (much like I did with the majority of the show) In a lot of ways, I think that Shu's story is really inspirational. I took it as it saying that even if you have no faith in yourself, even if you hate yourself and how much of a coward you are, that's fine. At the end of the day, you can change yourself for the better. You can become a better person by accepting people, even if they end up hurting you, by trying to do the right thing and being more forgiving of yourself and others.

    THAT'S the sort of message I support completely, and I think that even though Shu might have ended up being a cripple at the end, even if he lost the one person he loved, he was better off than at the start of the story. He was a new person, a better person who is more open to others, more accepting of others and their faults and his own. That was the main reason why I put aside my problems with the show aside during the finale, since I thought it was that good.

    Of course, it all comes down to how the thing was managed, and honestly ... I never felt like I had come to care for Shu like I might have felt with different protagonists in similar shows, because while his changes where justifiable, I always felt like he took each change to the end of the spectrum. When he became a miserable pile of self pity, he left no room for me to care. When he became a cold heartless bastard after Hare's death, I started thinking that he might have asked everyone to call him Fuehrer just to complete the set. When he came back after losing his hand, I thought that he was going to claim to be Jesus. I didn't feel myself connect to Shu, like worrying about a friend who is making a mistake, or thinking that I might do the same thing if I was in his place most of the time (some reaction of his came close to making me care, re: episode 1, Hare's Death, but aside from that...) so at the end, I felt rather unmoved when I should have been, since this was a beautiful story.
  8. Ledgem
    2012-03-26 14:07
    Ledgem
    Probably not. I have two comments on that, actually...

    1) Most western entertainment is geared around that "perfect ending" - all evil is rightfully punished, all good is rightfully rewarded. As far as newcomers go, Guilty Crown is very much what I consider to be an anime-type storyline: some things are ambiguous, there's sadness, there are bittersweet elements, and there's also a bit of happiness. It's a big mix of emotions, thoughts, and sensations that could easily be a turn-off to someone who was expecting a more traditionally-western form of entertainment.

    Those mixed elements in a series (particularly the endings) are what really drew me into anime when I was first exposed to it many years ago. As a result, I was pretty surprised to see that one of the major gripes that people seem to have with Guilty Crown is how Shu ended up. I thought that Shu was truly a beautiful character, from his initial flaws, through to his struggles, and to his end. Yet even the anime fans on this forum were bothered by what he's put through in the series... I don't really understand why. Maybe modern anime has shifted more toward western entertainment, and people are expecting perfect justice with those perfect endings? Or perhaps the world has experienced enough negativity in recent years that people are looking to anime (and entertainment) for a positive boost, instead of something containing negative sensations?

    What I'll say next isn't really in response to your question, but is sort of prompted by it:

    2) Seasoned fans (or really, those who watch a ton of anime actively) have changed over the past few years. Back when I was watching things heavily, people discussed events within the show itself and took nearly everything at face value. There were no discussions about things like script writing or how a series could have been restructured to be better. That sort of development analysis either didn't exist or was pretty rare. In my opinion, if you start to analyze shows that way you're going to find flaws and have a harder time just enjoying it for what it is.

    Partly in line with that is the fact that viewing experience has grown with time. The amount of series that fans today have seen is probably double to triple (if not more) what most of us had been exposed to in the early 2000's and late 1990's. If you watch enough series you're less easily impressed by each show that you see afterward, and you begin to make comparisons. I've seen quite a bit by now, but the fact that I've been viewing things off and on means that hard details of what I've seen generally evade me, so I'm less likely to make comparisons between series. I take things at face value when it comes to anime, as well. Both factors mean that I can jump into a series and enjoy it for what it is, even if I've seen something similar done before.

    So sure, Guilty Crown wasn't perfect. If I think about it critically, there are plenty of areas where there were some major screw-ups that could have been avoided and that might have made the series better. But what good is it to discuss those? The series is what it is, and it won't change. I think it's more fruitful (and more fun) to discuss the events within the series; at the very least, that can change a person's perception of the series and possibly cause them to appreciate it more, or get more out of it. Kvetching about things like the writing, character count, or series length is just obsessing over perceived flaws for which there is no resolution.
  9. Arabesque
    2012-03-26 10:35
    Arabesque
    Do you think that Guilty Crown might be better appreciated as a gateway series for newcomers than for more seasoned anime fans (as in, people who watch quite a lot of anime)?
  10. Ledgem
    2012-03-21 13:18
    Ledgem
    Quote:
    There does really seem to be a unique and strong connection between the two, but why not say something along the lines of ''Inori is the one person in the world who understood me'' or ''I must save her since she's the one who's closer to my heart/soul'' then? It would be a lot more accurate than her being the sole person to stand beside him.
    I wasn't paying too much attention to the Japanese around this point, but I wonder if part of the issue here is a translation one. The series certainly had enough weird blips with the relationships between characters that the translation could be solid as it is, but I wonder if they overemphasized Inori in the translation compared with what Shu really said. Or perhaps they used an incorrect tense form? If I remember right, my version said something like 'you've always been the only one there for me' which seems to snub Hare. If the proper translation was 'you're the only one who is there for me' then it would be correct, considering Hare's fate. Maybe if I have the time I'll try to find that scene again and translate it myself...

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