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Exiled to the Couch
"The Loops Before" - Fanfic Challenge!!!
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"The Loops Before" - Fanfic Challenge!!!
Fuyu no Sora
I'm horrible at making outlines, so count me out on the whole "share rough ideas of the overarching story outline" thing.
The Lillet we'd write about would also depend heavily on if Lillet's magical experience is cumulative with her other selves (the experience that the one stuck in the PS room gets is transferred to the new Lillet and so on) or if everything starts from scratch when there's a switch in the Lillets (hence taking more than forever...). If the former is the case, we could always write about the game Room!Lillet before she got there.
Wow, this makes even less sense every time I watch it.
I always assumed that the "grimoire" in question was the Lemegeton, specifically because the time loop links "The Night Before" with midnight on Day 5 but she doesn't get her first grimoire until Gammel gives it to her, so really she's kind of book-free at the time. Though...yeah. Unclear.
I'm pretty certain that Lillet's magical experience is cumulative, probably because whenever a "new" Lillet is created, it's more like she splits off from the point where the "old" Lillet already was:
a---a (the old lady met by Adult!Lillet when she first arrived at the Stone room)
b---b (Adult!Lillet we see in the epilogue)
c ("our" Lillet)
Lillet-B specifically tells Lillet-C that she's been traveling through time "for thousands of years"; which implies that either (a) B's been stuck in the hole that long
on top of
whatever A did and whatever came before A, or (b) all Lillets' memories/experience are cumulative.
Which secondary explanation makes more sense in another way: it eliminates questions of which Lillet (the one left in the room and the one who goes back) is the "real" Lillet--
are; the fragmenting of time into two channels (the "looping" channel and the "continuing perspective" channel which exists only in the room) creates two identical Lillets. This would also explain why the previous Lillet from the Stone room disappears when a new Lillet is created: each channel of time can only sustain the existence of one Lillet Blan so when the bells chime on the fifth day and the channels separate, only one Lillet remains.
(Getting waaay out there in the speculation, one might even say that the reason the "old" one vanishes rather than the "new" one is because the attempt to destroy the Philosopher's Stone momentarily merges the two timelines, then separates them again where the Stone, intact, divides time once more and only the "new" Lillet is valid for both timelines. This would also explain how Lillet-B knew that it was she who'd disappear and Lillet-C would go on.)
For those who choose to be less depressed, one might note that this would imply that the "disappearing" Lillets don't truly "vanish" per se in the sense of "being deleted," but that instead "never were"; that all possible "Lillets" are re-integrated into one "Lillet" due to the alternate time channel ceasing to be. Or in other words, "Lillet Blan" only has one soul and so all "possible Lillets" are merged into one from the external perspective of God (who, like U-DO from
, I assume is outside all of this time-looping nonsense as
seems to run off a Judeo-Christian theological base and therefore suggests an omnipotent, omniscient God that is not subject to the rules of the universe).
Last points (darn that 5000 character limit):
I note that Lillet-B tells Lillet-C that Lillet-C is early. So that implies that the previous looping Lillets took
than five loops of five days. So this project should run a minimum of 6 loops of 5. Ideally, I'd suggest 10, because that would give everybody 2 shots at writing NB, but that would take a loooooong time.
So ultimately, the following 4 outcomes exist for any 5-day loop of time:
Lillet does not reach the Philosopher's Stone room:
Lillet returns to NB five days earlier, retaining all memories and grimoires.
Lillet reaches the Philosopher's Stone room and "drops the grimoire"/(Lillet reaches the Philosopher's Stone room, retains the "grimoire" and makes a half-baked failing attempt to destroy the Stone?):
Lillet is ejected back to NB with no grimoires and with her memories erased back to the point where she first came to the Tower, but retaining her magical powers.
(personal theory: "dropping the grimoire" means "not bringing the Lemegeton into the Stone room"--because she needs the Lemegeton's unique Runes and knowledge to destroy the Stone and so without the Lemegeton she can't even try)/(personal theory: likewise, this version of "attempt and fail" means "she's going about trying to destroy it the wrong way," whether due to lacking the Lemegeton or just getting mixed up about the ideas.)
Lillet reaches the Philosopher's Stone room, attempts to destroy the Stone, makes a fairly good job of it, and fails:
Lillet divides into two Lillets, one which goes back in time without memories and grimoires, retaining magical experience, and one which remains in the Stone room. Any previously existing Lillet in the Stone room vanishes.
(personal theory: this outcome represents Lillet using the correct procedure to destroy the Stone, but not having enough magical power to pull it off; it also represents what Lillet-C meant by asking Lillet-B "why did you touch it?")
Lillet arrives in the Stone room and successfully destroys the Stone:
Cheers and huzzahs! Time is unified and stops looping, beginning to advance once more.
I thought the Lillets died as they grew old since LilletB does mention meeting an old lady. In other words that she doesn't have immortality and she is living through the same five days (as an aside, if the above is true, that Lillet would have lived through the loops at least 200 times. How is she not crazy again?)
In other words, if there is somesort of heaven, Amoretta will have a fun afterlife.
I prefer the optimistic way of thinking, that they're ALL Lillet ^_^....
Oh my god, GAHHH!!! @_@
Okay, I rewatched V/5-3 as well, and so the line is quoted: "You didn't release the grimoire? If you drop it when time returns, it starts over." So that's what everyone was referring to?? ^^;;;;;
Okay, I'm interpreting "it starts over" as in "Lillet's memory is wiped and she "forgets" everything superficially". If that
the case, then Lillet just goes back and repeats the Loop with her conscious memory intact?
(So maybe someone else earlier was right--maybe these Loops aren't restricted to 5 Loops, they could be more than that--maybe the Room!Lillet was the one who figured out that if Lillet unknowingly drops the grimoire (....I have no clue
grimoire @_@) then it's "memory-wipe, start over"?)
Okay, do we mind just leaving all this grimoire and time-paradox stuff aside, since Lillet wouldn't actually encounter this problem until (supposedly) Loop 5 Day 5?
I don't think that this stuff will affect our current fic challenge until we near the end of it--I want to hopefully get all these guidelines hammered out ASAP so we can get started!
EDIT: Ninja'd by 2!
(Technically, Dezo, the Game!Lillet is Lillet-D (Room!Lillet is Lillet-C, since Lillet-C had met another young-ish Lillet-B, who told Lillet-C about an old lady Lillet-A.....)
The Lillets definitely
in the Stone room, but Lillet-B specifically said that the previous one
. Lillet-A was older when Lillet-B got there because she took more loops to advance to the Stone room (starting out at lower level).
...it's also entirely possible that there could have been previous Lillets who actually died of old age and so a Lillet arriving at the Stone room would find no one there! After all, Lillet would have had to learn life-extension magic to extend her lifetime beyond a standard human span, and that would depend on being able to study it during the loops.)
Well, since I don't believe that Lillet can get out of the Stone room while retaining her conscious memory (see above personal theories as to what's happening), yes, I think it's something to confront when we get to the final day of the final loop. Then whomever is writing that can take the story wherever they want: maybe it's the set of loops before the game begins, or maybe it's Lillet-B's story...or Lillet-A's ("I think I've figured out how to stop these loops: I destroy the Philosopher's Stone!" *fail* *looks around* "Why am I still here? And why can I look through the Stone to see me, with no memories, advancing?")
But I still think there need to be at least 6 loops, due to the "got here early" line.
Probably, that Lillet isn't crazy because every time she gets down to the Stone room, her memories get "cleaned out" by looping back. Like she said, "I've given this explanation so many times*..." so "our" Lillet's made more than a few failed trips down to the Stone room. I figure the Lillet that's in the Stone room is the one really at risk of going crazy, because she can't forget anything!
@deathcurse: Oh sure give me the most difficult job of explaining time travel theory in a sane way why don't you (just joking, I could probably do it)
@DezoPenguin: I forgot she dissapeared, well there goes my theory.
Also, this game is so depressing when you stop to think about it. Time travel shenanigans, they are always depressing D=
Fuyu no Sora
Meanwhile, um, so have we decided on what Grimoire is dropped and how it all works or are we still trying to figure it all out? I'm confused now.
Okay, do people mind me (being the orchestrator of this idea, and also being the least GrimGrimoire savvy so what I decide on that makes sense will probably make sense for everyone else?
) setting down the finalized guidelines?
That way hopefully we can get started and have some fun with this.....
We're pretty much all just guessing. It's a matter of speculating and figuring out what possibilities close the gaps, since the actual canon...does not explain.
Go for it! The sooner we start writing, the better...and hey, if we want to delve into this looping stuff further, we can open up another thread and spew theory to our heart's content!
'tis cool, we are mostly getting ahead of ourselves by trying to make sense to the ending, so yeah you may set down the guidelines. Which reminds me, 3rd person or 1st person narration? This is horribly important for me.
Fuyu no Sora
You also have my approval for setting down the guidelines. Go for it, dc! Go get 'em!
*sourly* Something like that
have popped up in
2 had the game been developed and released. *sulks*
Narrative style could be writer's choice? If 1st person, then it could be written as Lillet's diary entries just like the game itself presents, only (obviously) longer and in more detail, while 3rd person could be "as it happens" narration.
Fuyu no Sora
I definitely like this idea! Nice thought there, Dezo.
Heck, we could even have the regular story and also write side stories that would be the diary entries. I know someone could get at least one omake out of that. *whistles innocently as a huge blinking arrow appears over Dezo's head*
Okay, thanks everyone! ^^
I updated my first post with the new set of guidelines and rules
: Omakes would be awesome!
wow, my head just exploded reading the theories and explanations.
suffice to say, I'll enjoy sitting back and reading how this turns out (as I have minimal writing skills)
Alrighty, shall we get started?
First writer of The Night Before would be spawn, who would also be doing Day 1?
Okay. How close to the original First Night Before and First Day One am I allowed to be? Given the way these things work, I'm not sure how I'm gonna nudge the timeline onto a different track so early.
As close as it can be.
The First Loop is always the same, I believe, since Lillet has to meet (almost) everyone in the tower on those first five days.
...The first loop, being the prologue/intro has no sense of freedom.
That's what I believe at least.
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