"You're jumping to conclusions on something that never happened."

As are you. However, we have Fate's words that she will do so versus speculation that she wouldn't. I hold the upper hand.

The A's and SS Fate gives far more depth to her character. The way she responded to Lindy while on her repreive from trial, how she stated Nanoha opening up to her was making her "waver" from her original intent.

*tilts head* Which track was that?

"I'm defending her on something that never happened, and you're blaming her for something that could have happened."

I'm blaming her for something she offered to do. And no, I'm not giving the poor girl a break. She was working on world destruction long before she got tossed aside by Precia.

"Those are an out-of-context generalizations of cruel. They're mere sayings, nothing more. They don't give the full emphasis or meaning to the word."


Calling someone cruel for not helping is not 'out of context.'

"There is no person on earth (by your definition of it) who has not done something cruel at one point or another, but does that make him/her a cruel person? No, of course not. If you want to label some one a "cruel" person then it needs to be a trait. Otherwise, everyone is cruel, no exceptions."

Ahh, but I do believe everyone has a bit of cruelty inside them. Which is why I also scoff at the notion of Fate not having it. Remember, the original claim that started this was that Fate was 'more cruel' in the movie. Not that Fate was a cruel person.

"I'm not cherry picking."

Yes you are. You throw a few nice comments and say "See? That's not selfish!" ignoring the actions and their consequences. Which is why I threw in the Jail comparison, I can pull a few quotes from the manga where he is talking like a loving father and say "See? He's not evil!"

"As for the kitty hurting, I'm sure you've seen what Precia does to Fate in the event she "wastes" time."

Well aware.

"Knocking the kitty out may of been the only way to retrieve the jewel seeds in the first place. Either way, just as Nanoha can use magical damage to drain the target, rather than using physical damage...So can Fate. Who is to say that attack that knocked the kitty out didn't just temporarily drain it?"

The kitty crying out in pain for one. But this is nitpicking, what Fate was doing was obviously far less friendly than what Nanoha was doing. Or trying to, at any rate.

"Okay, honestly, I don't even consider the "Fate was aware of the jewel seeds magical potential" a debate. It doesn't matter how aware Fate was, she truly believed her mother needed them for a reason unrelated to world destroying, or any kind of damage for that matter. To her, those Jewel Shards were the thing that will spark Precia's happiness once more. Despite all the things Precia did to her, she had no concept that Precia was crazy. Again, her age and the fact it was her mother (who implanted false memories into her) refuted the possibility of her coming up with the logical conclusion that Precia was insane. Imagine having memories of a kind-hearted mother, and then all of a sudden she treats you like dirt. Confused wouldn't even begin to explain what most people would feel like."

Ah, so now Fate is a mindless, stupid drone that doesn't even consider that dangerous forbidden Lost Logia with world destroying powers were forbidden for a reason. Yes, I can see much improvement. *rolls eyes*

Excuse me if I don't really enjoy the play of the idiot card. Fate is a smart girl, this is one of the things she has going for her. Not being able to figure out that 'hmm, these items are pretty darn dangerous, and I'm fighting law enforcement officers to get them, maybe this isn't such a nice thing' is something I find fully unbelievable.

"This is one of those debates that spirals in circles because we're using two different moral viewpoints to justify our debate."

Indeed, hence why I used the words "depends on your point of view" in the post that started all this.

Orz, i couldn't even post my reply into one comment box.

>>I disagree. Fate wanted her mother to smile, true. And that in itself is not selfish. However you are cherry picking comments and using them as an example of the whole. Doing this, I can say Jail is a good guy just because he made a few selfless comments to the numbers, and I am sure you would raise a few protests. Fate desired to be accepted by her mother, this was her goal. In doing so, she was willing to do a lot of things, such as hurting a harmless kitty caught in-between (and only because it was the fastest way to get the Seed) fighting and harming another child who is merely intent on protecting her world, and even handing the Seeds to her mother who will utilize them in an as-of-then unknown experiment, despite that Fate is fully aware of the Jewel Seeds potential for damage.

As for the kitty hurting, I'm sure you've seen what Precia does to Fate in the event she "wastes" time. Knocking the kitty out may of been the only way to retrieve the jewel seeds in the first place. Either way, just as Nanoha can use magical damage to drain the target, rather than using physical damage...So can Fate. Who is to say that attack that knocked the kitty out didn't just temporarily drain it? If Nanoha can STB Fate with massive damage, and it only temporarily knocks the wind out of her, I doubt the kitty thought much of it when he came to. As for Nanoha, lol, clearly she had more interest in saving/befriending Fate than the world. She was fully aware what she was getting into, and despite Nanoha doing it out of pure intent, what she did was "selfish" as well. I don't think she was, but by your standards she certainly was. Okay, honestly, I don't even consider the "Fate was aware of the jewel seeds magical potential" a debate. It doesn't matter how aware Fate was, she truly believed her mother needed them for a reason unrelated to world destroying, or any kind of damage for that matter. To her, those Jewel Shards were the thing that will spark Precia's happiness once more. Despite all the things Precia did to her, she had no concept that Precia was crazy. Again, her age and the fact it was her mother (who implanted false memories into her) refuted the possibility of her coming up with the logical conclusion that Precia was insane. Imagine having memories of a kind-hearted mother, and then all of a sudden she treats you like dirt. Confused wouldn't even begin to explain what most people would feel like.

This is one of those debates that spirals in circles because we're using two different moral viewpoints to justify our debate. And it doesn't help that we don't even agree on the context of most of the words we're debating.

>>In this case, because more people than just us are involved in the debate.

Makes sense, though originally I thought it was just you and me...

>>I don't recall her saying that. I recall her agreeing with Lindy's observation that she would have looked for an alternative, but looking for an alternative and finding it are two entirely different things. Do realize that this assessment was under the assumption that the only change present was that Precia told her she was a mere tool to revive Alicia. Aside from that, not much changed, which means Precia would still have ordered Fate to gather the Jewel Seeds, and Fate would still have carried out that duty, as Precia did not consider any alternative at that point.

waitaminute, I feel like my own words are being used against me. I said the same exact thing with Fate's "She blatantly told Precia she would defend her if she had told her to. If Precia had said 'shield me while I finish' Fate would -by her own words- have done so." scene. You're jumping to conclusions on something that never happened. The A's and SS Fate gives far more depth to her character. The way she responded to Lindy while on her repreive from trial, how she stated Nanoha opening up to her was making her "waver" from her original intent. All these things lead me to believe Fate would have never gone through with it. Give the poor girl a break - She was just told that she is a clone, and the mother she was doing everything in her power to satisfy - hated her. You expect her to act rationally in that environment? I believe what she said to Precia came from the bottom of her heart, however, once she came to and realized what it means to "protect Precia" I believe things would have changed. This is just an assumption, but your comment is no less an assumption than mine. I'm defending her on something that never happened, and you're blaming her for something that "could" have happened.

>>And yet we have sayings such as 'it's cruel weather outside' or one can call someone cruel for not helping someone who fell of a bike. The weather sure isn't 'enjoying' you suffering under it's harsh condition, and whomever walked along when the guy fell of a bike doesn't need to be enjoying the scene either. Yet, both are called cruel.

Those are an out-of-context generalizations of cruel. They're mere sayings, nothing more. They don't give the full emphasis or meaning to the word. And by your context, I could slap the "cruel" tag on anyone in the entire series. Because of this, it would lose it's intended meaning. Another thing, there is a difference between being cruel and doing something cruel, and while I think Fate has done neither of these -- the point still needs to be made. There is no person on earth (by your definition of it) who has not done something cruel at one point or another, but does that make him/her a cruel person? No, of course not. If you want to label some one a "cruel" person then it needs to be a trait of theirs. Otherwise, everyone is cruel, no exceptions.

>>As Nya~n less-than-eloquently put, there seems to be a certain opinion in the fandom that Fate is a holy maiden of purity that can have no blemish, no flaw. She is apparently perfect in every way.

lol, honestly I won't argue here, because I do truly think that to some degree. What can i say, every action she's taken I've considered the right action. Her only noticeable flaw (to me, atleast) is in her name itself. Fate - An inevitability that can not be altered. Although this obviously gets thrashed in A's since her outlook on life is changed and set anew.

I'm not cherry picking. Honestly, the few comments Fate said behind the reasons she is doing this have always been similar in nature. - Obviously these are not direct quotes as I'm going from memory. "Precia is just frustrated with her research, so we(her and Arf) need to help her accomplish her goals as soon as possible" Of course Fate had no idea what those "goals" were. I believe there was one time she mentioned doing this so that "mother could smile at her." If there was ever a time you could slap the selfish tag on Fate it would be then...But heaven forbid a young child cant desperately wish and strive for love from her mother.

Comparing Fate's reasoning with Scaglietti makes me giggle. The difference is he blatantly enjoyed the outcome of his "master" plans. They shouldn't even be mentioned together

"lol, why does everyone always comment on their profile rather than the person they're replying to, orz."

In this case, because more people than just us are involved in the debate.

To Lindy: "You're probably right, if it came down to it, I could not have gone through with it if it came down to fighting everyone that saved me." I believe she would have done everything in her power short of destroying the planet to save Precia. "

I don't recall her saying that. I recall her agreeing with Lindy's observation that she would have looked for an alternative, but looking for an alternative and finding it are two entirely different things. Do realize that this assessment was under the assumption that the only change present was that Precia told her she was a mere tool to revive Alicia. Aside from that, not much changed, which means Precia would still have ordered Fate to gather the Jewel Seeds, and Fate would still have carried out that duty, as Precia did not consider any alternative at that point.

"I love you not because I am your daughter, but because you are my mother"...Some one who can say that with a pure heart, just can't be cruel.

The Higurashi cast might have something to say about that...

On a more serious note, you still link cruel with enjoying torment. While the most common association, cruelty does extend beyond that.

See, now I just think you're taking the term "cruel" too lightly. Even what you said is not cruel. Even your example of cruelty, really doesn't give the full weight of the term. Valuing yourself above others is selfish, it is not cruel. I don't see how selfishness is a form of cruelty. I even checked several definitions and they all lean towards the lack of human feelings, or being inhumanely brutal.

And yet we have sayings such as 'it's cruel weather outside' or one can call someone cruel for not helping someone who fell of a bike. The weather sure isn't 'enjoying' you suffering under it's harsh condition, and whomever walked along when the guy fell of a bike doesn't need to be enjoying the scene either. Yet, both are called cruel.

"The only person who can make mother smile again is me." That has got to be the least selfish desire I've ever heard. Either I'm missing a form of cruelty that you know of, or otherwise, I can't see Fate cruel in any sense of the word. I stand by my reasoning that if Fate is cruel, then everyone in the entire known world is cruel as well. She had the smallest desire of any character I know, unfortunately, she was born to a life where her one and only desire could bring about the end of humanity...Which she didn't even realize until the very end.

As Nya~n less-than-eloquently put, there seems to be a certain opinion in the fandom that Fate is a holy maiden of purity that can have no blemish, no flaw. She is apparently perfect in every way.

I disagree. Fate wanted her mother to smile, true. And that in itself is not selfish. However you are cherry picking comments and using them as an example of the whole. Doing this, I can say Jail is a good guy just because he made a few selfless comments to the numbers, and I am sure you would raise a few protests. Fate desired to be accepted by her mother, this was her goal. In doing so, she was willing to do a lot of things, such as hurting a harmless kitty caught in-between (and only because it was the fastest way to get the Seed) fighting and harming another child who is merely intent on protecting her world, and even handing the Seeds to her mother who will utilize them in an as-of-then unknown experiment, despite that Fate is fully aware of the Jewel Seeds potential for damage.

This part of Fate is the part you are desperately trying to erase, the part you are trying not to see. It is the part of Fate that is not pure, the part that is selfish, and the part that made her cruel. Cruel in the way that the rest of the world can suffer, as long as she attains the happiness with her mother she yearns for. She may not completely like it, but in the end she still does it.

Probably but that really depends on the circumstances doesn't it? If you are a grown man I'd hold you to a higher standard than I would an abused, lonely, frightened nine-year-old girl who'd do anything to make her mother 'better'.

Which is why I said it depends on your point of view.

"Cruel?

Mean, heartless, brutal, sadistic, vicious?

I'd say that it was almost a prerequsite."

See above. A person needs not be Mean, heartless, brutal, sadistic or vicious when not helping someone, yet can still be called cruel for not doing so. Weather can't even express that, and still be called cruel.

It's not the best word to use, I agree, but it's valid.

I'm not sure why that's better but since you've started here now...

(That's why I wasn't sure quite how to explain how I fellt at the time)

Probably but that really depends on the circumstances doesn't it? If you are a grown man I'd hold you to a higher standard than I would an abused, lonely, frightened nine-year-old girl who'd do anything to make her mother 'better'. Also that cat was huge, I'm sure it was quite capable of taking care of itself.

Cruel?

Mean, heartless, brutal, sadistic, vicious?

I'd say that it was almost a prerequsite.

Fate is teh purez! There is no way she will do ebil thingzzzzzzz

lol, why does everyone always comment on their profile rather than the person they're replying to, orz.

>>Remains to be seen? She blatantly told Precia she would defend her if she had told her to. If Precia had said 'shield me while I finish' Fate would -by her own words- have done so.

There is no denying she said that, but it is one thing to state it, and another thing to go through with it. There is also the possibility she was trying to coax her mother into conceding and for Precia to accept her. Needless to say, it was her last ditch effort to save her mother and try to have Precia accept her in the process. You're assuming Fate would have gone through with it based on what happened in the first season, and yet Fate in the SS did say something along the lines of - To Lindy: "You're probably right, if it came down to it, I could not have gone through with it if it came down to fighting everyone that saved me." I believe she would have done everything in her power short of destroying the planet to save Precia. "I love you not because I am your daughter, but because you are my mother"...Some one who can say that with a pure heart, just can't be cruel.

>>Malign intend is not required. If not, it'd be impossible to call someone cruel for, as an example, abandoning people to a doomed fate (hehe, wordplay) to save oneself, yet this is still done and acknowledged as a valid term. Selfishness is a form of cruelty, as you place yourself or your desires over others.

See, now I just think you're taking the term "cruel" too lightly. Even what you said is not cruel. Even your example of cruelty, really doesn't give the full weight of the term. Valuing yourself above others is selfish, it is not cruel. I don't see how selfishness is a form of cruelty. I even checked several definitions and they all lean towards the lack of human feelings, or being inhumanely brutal.

"The only person who can make mother smile again is me." That has got to be the least selfish desire I've ever heard. Either I'm missing a form of cruelty that you know of, or otherwise, I can't see Fate cruel in any sense of the word. I stand by my reasoning that if Fate is cruel, then everyone in the entire known world is cruel as well. She had the smallest desire of any character I know, unfortunately, she was born to a life where her one and only desire could bring about the end of humanity...Which she didn't even realize until the very end.

Alas, this is clearly something that will never end in agreement, as I'm obviously not going to change my views, and from past experience, I doubt you plan on changing yours, either. Buttt I had to comment anyways knowing full well it wouldn't do a whole lot of good.

Remains to be seen? She blatantly told Precia she would defend her if she had told her to. If Precia had said 'shield me while I finish' Fate would -by her own words- have done so.

Malign intend is not required. If not, it'd be impossible to call someone cruel for, as an example, abandoning people to a doomed fate (hehe, wordplay) to save oneself, yet this is still done and acknowledged as a valid term. Selfishness is a form of cruelty, as you place yourself or your desires over others.

Like I said, Fate isn't cruel as in 'I torture and enjoy', she is cruel in that ultimately, her own desires were what mattered most to her. Regardless of what happened to the people of earth.

Love is Cruel , especially loved based on things you aren't aware.

Fate *is* Cruel. The whole point about Fate in StrikerS is she knew herself, and she doubted herself, justly because she knew she was capable of putting her emotions above everything else.

Fate was manipulated, whether or not Fate would have followed Precia at the earths expense...remains to be seen. Sound stages indicate otherwise, during the time when Lindy was talking to her while she was on the Asura for her trial. Cruel is just another term for heartlessness, and Fate has a whole lot of heart. But even if you truly believe Fate would have sacrificed the planet for Precia, I still don't think "cruel" is the proper term. Cruel needs malicious intent, doing something regrettably and because of love...just doesn't qualify as being cruel. She was given a choice to sacrifice one of two things, and she chose the one she loved most. Was it selfish? Yes. Cruel? No. Of course, at that point despite Precias brainwashing, Fate would face serious consequences, but not all serious crimes are cruel -- Not even when they're murder crimes. It all depends on the circumstance and the motive.