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2013-05-30 19:59Pencil_PSorry it's taken a few days to reply but I wanted to write something better than just "I agree with most of what you have said".
The whole fight against Reinforce scene makes little sense in the series nor does it's equivalent in the movie. In a straight up magical battle neither Nanoha nor Fate should have stood a chance against her even when together. Either that or Reinforce is not the world destroying power I thought.
So how do we do the battle and make it seem at least plausible. Well we could have them lose, it's what would probably happen and I see no shame in it. As long as they gave it their all can we really blame them for not being able to best someone who can destroy worlds.
Still that probably wouldn't go down too well. I have no problem with leads, even heroes, losing it shows that they are not invincible, which is usually just dull. I doubt though many fans would agree with me.
What if Nanoha doesn't actually need to defeat her. She only needs to draw her away from the civilian populated area and towards perhaps a point where an ambush has been set up with some big magical guns (though not the arc-en-ciel that's a bit too big).
I too like Fate for reasons apart from her competency in battle. In fact I prefer a character who can actually lose occasionally, it makes more real more relatable. Even Nanoha doesn't always win, as is evident from her battles with Vita and that mid level mage in the sound stages.
Fate does come across as a character with plenty to explore while Nanoha is more action oriented but I think that there is still something about Nanoha that could be utilised. She may lack Fate's tragic past but she still has a past and there are her motives. Why does she fight so hard, what is it that drives her to try to reach out to her foes even when they try to kill her. In Strikers Jail questioned Fate over her reasons for protecting Erio and Caro, I think Nanoha should also be forced to question why she does what she does.
With the rescue of Nanoha from Reinforce I think it's less that who she was rescued from has changed and more how it was done that they objected to (I'm guessing here).
I personally prefer to use more than two categories for characters as some characters while not being as important as the leads are still more important than others. These are the ones I call secondary.
There are probably two main types of supporting character those who support the story and those who support another character. Chrono is an example of a story support; his contribution to the series was to help flash out the plot with his own story relating to the incident and its past. He also contributed to the story by being the one who uncovered the conspiracy involving Graham (so with that removed his importance in the film was certainly diminished).
Arisa in the first series is a support character, she has little effect on the plot but helps to develop and reveal Nanoha's character. This leads me to the problem of removing stuff without due care to what it does to other parts. Take Strikers and the Lutecia side story. Now as much as I liked it it isn't that important to the main story and could quite easily be removed along with its characters, none of them really have much impact upon the story. Except that they were the main antagonists for Erio and Caro. Without them they would be left with little to do. So we could remove them too except they played an important part in helping to develop Fate's character. Through them we saw Fate's motherly side and her approach to training. It wouldn't really be a wise move to remove Fate as much as some people may want it.
It may have come to your attention that the relationship between Nanoha and Fate is being regarded as fluff. Perhaps it's just me but wasn't that possibly the most important relationship in the entire show. Fate was, after the show started getting good, Nanoha's primary reason behind what she did. It was her attempts to be friends with the girl with the sad eyes that drove her.
With Nanya turning the Fanfic thread to a movie hate thread, I'm not entirely innocent there myself. Most of my posts there have been about the movie and few were complimentary.
2013-05-24 23:32Pencil_PIt's a good point that you have made regarding Nanoha's chance against the Book of Darkness. Considering how powerful Reinforce was we should not expect Nanoha or Fate, even when working together, to be able to beat her. In fact realistically they should have been defeated within the first few minutes.
Now that i have thought about it the problem isn't that the movie depowered Nanoha but that A's made her too powerful in it's equivalent scene. Fate was beaten pretty quickly by being absorbed (which makes sense) yet Nanoha is able to hold her own against it.
So why do the anti fate people say the movie favoured her instead of saying that the series favoured Nanoha (who didn't get beaten almost right away).
Then we have the problem, in A's, that Nanoha and Fate are unable to beat Signum and vita who get defeated by two familiars who are defeated by Chrono. The solution the TSAB have for dealing with an extremely powerful lost logia is send in two small girls, one of whom has recently gone through a terrible emotional trauma a familiar and an archaeologist.
All this shows that the series itself was hardly perfect and I think some people are forgetting that. While I did have criticisms of what was changed, mainly in the first half, I am not going to rubbish the movie just because it changed stuff. In fact in the second half I think things were done quite well overall and if anything I'd say it didn't change enough. I'd have liked to have seen it deal with the issues I've raised about the Wolks.
I try to see where the other side in an argument is coming from and with the rescue I can understand why they were unhappy with it. However there are certain arguments that I simply fail to understand; that of Fate being unimportant is one.
Nearly every show has a hierarchy of character importance and Fate is very near the top. The argument that she takes away development from others is wrong on two main grounds. One, that Nanoha's lack of development was because of how her time wasn't as well used and not due to lack of time, two the other characters are not as important. As I wrote about in my review certain character are secondary. We could take the Fate steals their time argument to it logical and extreme conclusion by making the same argument about any character that has more time on screen than another.
"I know you were not fond of the movie either, but I don't see the same condescending tone coming from you;"
Thanks. I try not to force my like or dislike or something onto others. Just because I have an opinion on something doesn't mean others must share it.
I wouldn't call Chrono a minor character, that implies to me more of a bit part like MAriel. Now is not a main one instead I'd label him as secondary. Where it went wrong was that his backstory was badly handled. With Graham's role gone Chrono's backstory had less relevance since he two were closely connected. Now there were time constraints true and it could have been extremely difficult to fit his story in. In that case they should have cut it out entirely. That would risk reducing him down to a minor character but I'd rather have that than lose development or time for someone more important.
I see character importance like this: There are Primary i.e Nanoha,Fate Secondary i.e Arf, Chrono Minor such as Amy, Mariel and bit part i.e characters that usually don't even have a name.
Vita was rather brutal though I find none of the three (Zafira wasn't in that scene though it's arguable whether he'd have acted differently) to be sympathetic. In fact they are among the least sympathetic villains in the entire franchise. I could possibly feel more inclined to like them if they were ever shown actually having to face up to what they did instead of it being seemingly forgotten or ignored.
It's getting really late so I hope you won't mind if I write the rest after I've slept.
As I wrote about before I'll still post on thefanfiction forum but I'll try to avoid the Fate argument where possible. I don't mind people having opinions that differ strongly from mine (even if they are as baffling as Fate should be removed) but I object when they assume that I must also have those opinions. So far in my dealings with them I haven't had that from either Nanya or Kaijo. I got a civil reply from Kaijo who despite obviously not holding the same opinions as I doesn't seem to mind that difference.
I haven't read the entire argument on here I sort of skimmed through the movie thread so things could well have been different in your own dealings with them and I won't comment on those at least until I've read through that thread properly.
2013-05-22 22:52Pencil_PHere's an idea for how the rescue could be done without alienating the Nanoha fans (well I'm one myself, she's in my top three Nanoha characters).
It's done mostly how it was in A's; Hayate calls out to Nanoha and Fate for their help, Nanoha blasts the Book of Darkness with a spell while Fate does the same but from the dream world. Here th stage of BOD's defeat is more collaborative as in A's. Fate and Nanoha greet each other now that Fate is out of the dream. However BOD isn't out yet and fires (while Natch takes over) a final blast straight at Nanoha. Fate intervenes and protects her.
2013-05-22 22:45Pencil_PI agree that the rescue was needed and that Nanoha losing to the Book of Darkness makes more sense in many ways than her losing to Vita. It's just that I can understand why Nanoha fans were not happy at how it was done. They seem pretty evenly matched then suddenly Nanoha starts getting beaten. It's as if Nanoha takes a nerfing just so that he can be rescued.
2013-05-22 17:31Pencil_PCompare it to a similar situation in another show. A guy has badly injured his friend by accident but there is a cure. However it involves killing other people. He rejects it, not only would it be wrong but it would betray his friend to save him in such a manner.
Even if completing the book would have saved Hayate, and if they had listened for a few seconds they would have learn't that it wouldn't, they still betrayed Hayate and nearly defiled her name in blood.
What if they had succeeded in the fight? They would need to find some way to prevent the TSAB and the police from tracing them back to Hayate, meaning silencing Suzaka, Arisa probably their families and anyone else who could know. At some point Hayate is going to want to know where her friends went. What would they tell her. Picture her feengs if she knew the truth. If they are fighting for her happiness then they were going about it the wrong way.
This was not bad writing as people in life act like complete idiots (look at North Korea) yet it certainly doesn't make them sympathetic. What did annoy me though was the way the issue is ignored. The numbers, Lueticia, Fate all get treated and seen at some point as criminals. The wolks get treated almost as if they have done nothing wrong. Not just in the show itself but within the fandom they are often seen as anti-villains and almost heroes.
I am going to post on thefanfiction forum occasionally but I'll try to avoid the Fate argument.
What is the best song or instrumental in the show
2013-05-22 17:24Pencil_PWe seem to be in agreement over Fates importance, she may not have been there from the very beginning but that hardly makes her unimportant. As for the arguments about her relevance to the events in Nanoha, well that's but a particularly great way to evaluating a character. I'd rather go for how do they affect the quality of the plot.
Fate marked the turning point of the story to something of a much higher degree. Without her, well just picture how it would have turned out. Even the anti-fate people I feel would have a hard time trying to believe the show was better in it's early episodes before she arrived.
I do NOT want Fate's screen time cut but rather if it was the only way to bring in more development for other characters then I would accept it. However it isn't, there are lots of other things that could be reduced by a few seconds to provide the room necessary.
Nanoha's nerfing in the movie, is a difficult point to asses. I agree with you that it is a bit unrealistic to expect Nanoha, who was unable to beat Vita, to hold up against the Book of Darkness. Still I can understand why her fans were displeased with how it was done. I would have preferred it if it could have been done without Nanoha going from holding her own to getting completely beaten. I also liked the more collaborative way it was done in A's. With Fate and Hayate's being the result of a combined effort. Despite that though the rest of the dream scene I think was better in the movie.
Another problem is that while it is correct that Fate lost her rescue at the beginning part Nanoha also lost her scene of blasting away despite having her linker core drained and destroying the barrier. Fate was given a new scene to make up for the loss Nanoha wasn't. That scene was important for her, it showed her strength and determination.
Tragicdy and also angst done well are extremely powerful tools of writing, done badly they are awful. I think what makes it work is being able to care about the characters involved. There needs to be some level of emotional connection with them. Fate does this, she is a character in her own right beyond simply being tragic. We can sympathise with her plight but she is more than just someone to be sympathetic towards, she is not just her plight.
Good stories tend to have a human heart. By this i mean that even if you took out the fantastic elements, with a few changes if any, you could still have an engaging story.
Fates story is that of a little girl, abused by her (apparent) mother but conditioned to show absolute loyalty trying to bring back the kind mother she remembers and even willing to take the blame for the abuse, something sometimes seen in real abuse victims. After having failed to achieve what she was intended for it is revealed that the woman she thought was her mum is not. All of that works even without the fantasy element to it. Fate need not be a clone, just a girl raised to believe that this woman is her real mother.
What makes Nanoha so great are not the action scenes, explosions and spells, they are good true but the heart of it is it's humanity.
Fate, Hayate and Nanoha show us true heroism. Some people get this wrong, they think being heroic is about violence and physical strength. It isn't. Take Fate, despite everything she went through she is able to forgive, to show compassion and mercy. The same can be said of Hayate and of Nanoha who acts with her values of compassion and helping others at the forefront. In Strikers for example instead of killing Quatro, something many others might have done, she avoids the temptation and acts according to her principles even rescuing her. Fate didn't have to try and save Precia but she did. That is true heroism. The ability to follow your principles to show compassion even in situations like that is something we should admire. They refuse to give in to hate or anger. These three make fantastic role models it's a pity that the ones who get chosen in anime as role models are often the violent thugs whose only emotion is rage and who'se life approach is to grab whatever they want regardless of other people.
Onto the wolks and I'm sorry to keep coming back to this. Vita's rashness makes me more willing to forgive her. None of them had anywhere near Fate's level of excuse. Fate was emotionally broken beyond being able to act rationally and should not be held accountable for her actions. The same dos not count for the Wolkies but Vita out of them comes closest to having the same excuse. She was acting out of emotion more than actual thought.
Shamal and Signum however chose, rationally and coldly to kill two little girls. That they were not happy about doing it makes little difference. Take Shamal, she was prepared to stand by while Fate and Nanoha died doing nothing to help them and preventing them from receiving any sort of medical attention. That's cold.
2013-05-16 23:03Pencil_PI agree with what you have written, with the exception that Fate wasn't there from the very beginning but I'll come to that later.
She gets significantly no more screen time than Nanoha and as a leading character her increased screentime over some of the others makes sense. Now there are probably some who would argue that Fate isn't that important. I suppose it depends on how we place characters into categories of main, secondary, Fate though is to me definitely a main one.
In the first shot of A's opening titles (the bit with the theme tune) we have a shot of both characters. In fact most of their shots in that sequence show them together. In A's Fate was just as important as Nanoha so why shouldn't she be in the film?
Now from what I remember Fate wasn't in the opening episodes of the franchise but while she may not have been there from the start that hardly precludes her being a lead. It was Fate's arrival that helped bring the show up beyond the stereotypical magical girl stuff. Fate's importance is that she changed the show to a more dramatic, meaningful experience. We could argue that this was also Precia's doing and she was certainly important but that does not take away Fate's significance.
Now this is not to claim that she is more important than Nanoha, but the fact that Nanoha was not as well developed as she should have been was hardly the fault of Fate being well written. We can ask why does Fate get blamed and not say Reinforce.
As I have written about before it would not have taken much to expand on nanoha's motives and background. You can reveal a great deal with just a few seconds of time, so it's not like there was the need to have to cut much out to do so.
I am not totally against cutting down on Fate's screentime (although I think there is plenty of other stuff that can be cut) as long as it isn't one of her important scenes. I'd rather not have her in the film at all than have her reduced to a pure action role (it's bad enough when they did that to Nanoha).
One area where the movie could be accused of showing favouritism to Fate is that she seems to be getting more of the hero role. Take the end of the dream scene; in A's the breaking out was more of a joint effort instead of Fate breaking out largely on her own and then rescuing Nanoha. In a's she didn't need rescuing and I can see why the change would upset her fans.
I tend to like tragic characters, I find it annoying the way that characters are expected to never feel scared or get depressed, to always be clear, brave and rational. I'd rather have a character whose a bit more realistic, that describes what reality is instead of prescribing what someone thinks it should be.
Nanoha is a show that has plenty of tragedy, yet of all the characters Fate is the one who did it best. Going back to the dream scene, why is it there? The makers needed to show contrast between sad and tragic past and what could have been. So why not just use Hayate, it would make sense from a story point of view after all it is supposed to be about how she rejects the offer of a perfect dream. Two reasons, one because it is a great chance to have what is perhaps Fates mot important development and two because Fate is simply better for it, or rather he background is more suited. Left to Hayate it wouldn't have been even half as powerful.
With the Wolkies I would have liked to have someone call them out for trying to kill Nanoha and Fate. I'm glad there is at least one person who agrees with me about them.
Didn't Vita say something about not defiling Hayate's name with blood? That did not last long.
Now some might argue they didn't have a choice. They could have listened, allowed Fate and Nanoha a few seconds to explain that they were not trying to injure Hayate but to save her. And they could have simply accepted that they had lost; to kill these two children (and possibly others who could be questioned on why they disappeared) would be the greatest betrayal of Hayate herself.
Comparing them to Fate, I could be wrong but I don't remember any time when she actually tried to kill Nanoha.
I feel that perhaps trying to make a 12 hour show into a 2 and 1/2 movie wasn't such a good idea when it was one with as little filler as this. It was going to be at the least problematic, they may have been better going for something else. Perhaps the previous time the book of darkness went and rampaged would be a good subject. It could be narrated to Fate and Nanoha by Chrono.
Are you posting over at thefanfiction forums.
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