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2013-05-22 17:31Pencil_PCompare it to a similar situation in another show. A guy has badly injured his friend by accident but there is a cure. However it involves killing other people. He rejects it, not only would it be wrong but it would betray his friend to save him in such a manner.
Even if completing the book would have saved Hayate, and if they had listened for a few seconds they would have learn't that it wouldn't, they still betrayed Hayate and nearly defiled her name in blood.
What if they had succeeded in the fight? They would need to find some way to prevent the TSAB and the police from tracing them back to Hayate, meaning silencing Suzaka, Arisa probably their families and anyone else who could know. At some point Hayate is going to want to know where her friends went. What would they tell her. Picture her feengs if she knew the truth. If they are fighting for her happiness then they were going about it the wrong way.
This was not bad writing as people in life act like complete idiots (look at North Korea) yet it certainly doesn't make them sympathetic. What did annoy me though was the way the issue is ignored. The numbers, Lueticia, Fate all get treated and seen at some point as criminals. The wolks get treated almost as if they have done nothing wrong. Not just in the show itself but within the fandom they are often seen as anti-villains and almost heroes.
I am going to post on thefanfiction forum occasionally but I'll try to avoid the Fate argument.
What is the best song or instrumental in the show
2013-05-22 17:24Pencil_PWe seem to be in agreement over Fates importance, she may not have been there from the very beginning but that hardly makes her unimportant. As for the arguments about her relevance to the events in Nanoha, well that's but a particularly great way to evaluating a character. I'd rather go for how do they affect the quality of the plot.
Fate marked the turning point of the story to something of a much higher degree. Without her, well just picture how it would have turned out. Even the anti-fate people I feel would have a hard time trying to believe the show was better in it's early episodes before she arrived.
I do NOT want Fate's screen time cut but rather if it was the only way to bring in more development for other characters then I would accept it. However it isn't, there are lots of other things that could be reduced by a few seconds to provide the room necessary.
Nanoha's nerfing in the movie, is a difficult point to asses. I agree with you that it is a bit unrealistic to expect Nanoha, who was unable to beat Vita, to hold up against the Book of Darkness. Still I can understand why her fans were displeased with how it was done. I would have preferred it if it could have been done without Nanoha going from holding her own to getting completely beaten. I also liked the more collaborative way it was done in A's. With Fate and Hayate's being the result of a combined effort. Despite that though the rest of the dream scene I think was better in the movie.
Another problem is that while it is correct that Fate lost her rescue at the beginning part Nanoha also lost her scene of blasting away despite having her linker core drained and destroying the barrier. Fate was given a new scene to make up for the loss Nanoha wasn't. That scene was important for her, it showed her strength and determination.
Tragicdy and also angst done well are extremely powerful tools of writing, done badly they are awful. I think what makes it work is being able to care about the characters involved. There needs to be some level of emotional connection with them. Fate does this, she is a character in her own right beyond simply being tragic. We can sympathise with her plight but she is more than just someone to be sympathetic towards, she is not just her plight.
Good stories tend to have a human heart. By this i mean that even if you took out the fantastic elements, with a few changes if any, you could still have an engaging story.
Fates story is that of a little girl, abused by her (apparent) mother but conditioned to show absolute loyalty trying to bring back the kind mother she remembers and even willing to take the blame for the abuse, something sometimes seen in real abuse victims. After having failed to achieve what she was intended for it is revealed that the woman she thought was her mum is not. All of that works even without the fantasy element to it. Fate need not be a clone, just a girl raised to believe that this woman is her real mother.
What makes Nanoha so great are not the action scenes, explosions and spells, they are good true but the heart of it is it's humanity.
Fate, Hayate and Nanoha show us true heroism. Some people get this wrong, they think being heroic is about violence and physical strength. It isn't. Take Fate, despite everything she went through she is able to forgive, to show compassion and mercy. The same can be said of Hayate and of Nanoha who acts with her values of compassion and helping others at the forefront. In Strikers for example instead of killing Quatro, something many others might have done, she avoids the temptation and acts according to her principles even rescuing her. Fate didn't have to try and save Precia but she did. That is true heroism. The ability to follow your principles to show compassion even in situations like that is something we should admire. They refuse to give in to hate or anger. These three make fantastic role models it's a pity that the ones who get chosen in anime as role models are often the violent thugs whose only emotion is rage and who'se life approach is to grab whatever they want regardless of other people.
Onto the wolks and I'm sorry to keep coming back to this. Vita's rashness makes me more willing to forgive her. None of them had anywhere near Fate's level of excuse. Fate was emotionally broken beyond being able to act rationally and should not be held accountable for her actions. The same dos not count for the Wolkies but Vita out of them comes closest to having the same excuse. She was acting out of emotion more than actual thought.
Shamal and Signum however chose, rationally and coldly to kill two little girls. That they were not happy about doing it makes little difference. Take Shamal, she was prepared to stand by while Fate and Nanoha died doing nothing to help them and preventing them from receiving any sort of medical attention. That's cold.
2013-05-16 23:03Pencil_PI agree with what you have written, with the exception that Fate wasn't there from the very beginning but I'll come to that later.
She gets significantly no more screen time than Nanoha and as a leading character her increased screentime over some of the others makes sense. Now there are probably some who would argue that Fate isn't that important. I suppose it depends on how we place characters into categories of main, secondary, Fate though is to me definitely a main one.
In the first shot of A's opening titles (the bit with the theme tune) we have a shot of both characters. In fact most of their shots in that sequence show them together. In A's Fate was just as important as Nanoha so why shouldn't she be in the film?
Now from what I remember Fate wasn't in the opening episodes of the franchise but while she may not have been there from the start that hardly precludes her being a lead. It was Fate's arrival that helped bring the show up beyond the stereotypical magical girl stuff. Fate's importance is that she changed the show to a more dramatic, meaningful experience. We could argue that this was also Precia's doing and she was certainly important but that does not take away Fate's significance.
Now this is not to claim that she is more important than Nanoha, but the fact that Nanoha was not as well developed as she should have been was hardly the fault of Fate being well written. We can ask why does Fate get blamed and not say Reinforce.
As I have written about before it would not have taken much to expand on nanoha's motives and background. You can reveal a great deal with just a few seconds of time, so it's not like there was the need to have to cut much out to do so.
I am not totally against cutting down on Fate's screentime (although I think there is plenty of other stuff that can be cut) as long as it isn't one of her important scenes. I'd rather not have her in the film at all than have her reduced to a pure action role (it's bad enough when they did that to Nanoha).
One area where the movie could be accused of showing favouritism to Fate is that she seems to be getting more of the hero role. Take the end of the dream scene; in A's the breaking out was more of a joint effort instead of Fate breaking out largely on her own and then rescuing Nanoha. In a's she didn't need rescuing and I can see why the change would upset her fans.
I tend to like tragic characters, I find it annoying the way that characters are expected to never feel scared or get depressed, to always be clear, brave and rational. I'd rather have a character whose a bit more realistic, that describes what reality is instead of prescribing what someone thinks it should be.
Nanoha is a show that has plenty of tragedy, yet of all the characters Fate is the one who did it best. Going back to the dream scene, why is it there? The makers needed to show contrast between sad and tragic past and what could have been. So why not just use Hayate, it would make sense from a story point of view after all it is supposed to be about how she rejects the offer of a perfect dream. Two reasons, one because it is a great chance to have what is perhaps Fates mot important development and two because Fate is simply better for it, or rather he background is more suited. Left to Hayate it wouldn't have been even half as powerful.
With the Wolkies I would have liked to have someone call them out for trying to kill Nanoha and Fate. I'm glad there is at least one person who agrees with me about them.
Didn't Vita say something about not defiling Hayate's name with blood? That did not last long.
Now some might argue they didn't have a choice. They could have listened, allowed Fate and Nanoha a few seconds to explain that they were not trying to injure Hayate but to save her. And they could have simply accepted that they had lost; to kill these two children (and possibly others who could be questioned on why they disappeared) would be the greatest betrayal of Hayate herself.
Comparing them to Fate, I could be wrong but I don't remember any time when she actually tried to kill Nanoha.
I feel that perhaps trying to make a 12 hour show into a 2 and 1/2 movie wasn't such a good idea when it was one with as little filler as this. It was going to be at the least problematic, they may have been better going for something else. Perhaps the previous time the book of darkness went and rampaged would be a good subject. It could be narrated to Fate and Nanoha by Chrono.
Are you posting over at thefanfiction forums.
2013-05-12 16:59Pencil_PI will say this about the movie, none of the flaws I saw in it can be directly laid at Fate's feet. Yes Nanoha lacked characterisation in it but that was hardly Fate's fault, I don't believe she got significantly if any more screen time. In fact with the lesser roles for some of the characters(understandable considering the length) one of the best ways to develop Nanoha is through her relationship with Fate. That this wasn't done is hardly due to giving Fate too much screen time.
With her being hated, I'm used to defending unpopular characters such as Shinji Ikari, the guy from Choas Head, even Raki of Claymore but not characters like Fate, who would have expected she'd need defending.
So why is she being hated? There are the arguments about destroying the world, being a criminal and having full responsibility but they are so idiotic I won't waste my time even countering them. No actually I shall.
If we are going to call Fate bad and even evil then the same criticism must be made even more of the Wolkenwritter. They admit to feeling that there is something wrong, something important that they are not remembering; so are just as if not more responsible for the consequence of completing the book of darkness as Fate is for gathering Jewel Seeds. They tried to kill two nine year old girls, not even giving them the chance to explain their side. To prevent the TSAB, or even the police, following up on their disappearance and being led to Hayate (how long would that take, they just need to find out the last known whereabouts and who was being visited) they'd need to take down Suzuka, Arisa and anyone else likely to know. They had sympathetic reasons but then so did Fate, so did Precia. And unlike those two the wolenwritter did not appear to be emotionally broken.
Compare how they are treated. Fate and Arf are seen in confinement, in handcuff. It is made clear that they they are criminals but have extenuating circumstances. The wolks are not seen in confinement, or handcuff, they are hardly even regarded as having done anything wrong. Even Lindy and Arf are friendly to them according to the manga. They tried to kill Fate and her adoptive mother and familiar don't seem to be too concerned about it. If Fate was given a free pass then what about them?
The other reason is that she gets more screen time than other characters. She's a main character of course she is going to get a larger amount of screen time than certain others. I do wonder if some of the hate comes from wanting to ship Nano/someone other than Fate with other characters and she gets in the way.
2013-05-10 17:29Pencil_PWhile we disagree about the movie, I will agree with on on Fate. I have been reading some of your posts in her defense, like on your conversation with Keroko and I really do not understand the hatred she gets.
Now if it's an issue of getting too much screen time at he expense of other characters then fine I can see their point even if I their wrong I can see where they are coming from. But calling her a bad person is just, to me, baffling.
With screentime I think it's less an issue of someone getting too much and more of someone else not getting enough. As I stated in the review "we need to remember that they are working within a limited time and it is almost inevitable that some things are going to be cut. It is better that they cut the less important roles than the main ones."
Nanoha should have recieved more development but I hardly think her lack of it was Fate's fault.
Onto the argument of Fate as a bad person, I doubt any good court could find Fate responsible for what happened during the Jewel Seed business. She was an emotionally distraught 9 yr old girl unaware of the consequences. Two comment you made put it down well " a person can work earnestly for something or someone totally unknowing of the consequences, and they're blamed for it, despite not having the slightest hint of what they were doing? Better yet, a 9yr old girl who is abused and is working for her mother she remembers as being "gentle" which just so happens to be a crazy women hellbent on destroying the planet with her ambitions...And despite all that, Fate is working for world destruction?...Right." "You seem to think people can't be emotionally distressed to the point where their logical thoughts go right out the window and they react on whim alone. Fate was smart, no doubt, but for the love of God, she was devastated beyond repair at the time. "
Some of the anti-fate people seem to have wanted her to be executed.
One thing that annoys me is when a character is condemmed for acting like a real person rather than a superhero. Take Rei from highschool of the dead (not a great show I know) she gets criticised for acting like an irrational bitch. She does but considering what she has been though it's understandable. Another one is Shinji Ikari, he gets scared and depressed but so do real people and often over less than he does.
There are Fate fans who are just as bad and I treat them with the same level of scorn but you are not one of them.
I think in forums there will be currents of thought, popular opinions and going against these is going to result in some not entirely reasonable reactions at times. This forum is probably one of the better, it is strict at times but I'd rather have that than have threads turn into a flame battle .
2013-05-08 21:47Pencil_PSorry for taking so long to reply I hardly check out this forum any more, I guess the problem with adaptations is they are going to be compared to what they are adapted from, usually unfavourably. If they stray too far people complain but if they are not different then people complain. Personally I still think even when not compared to A's it has several flaws that marred it but it wasn't unwatchable by any means.
2013-04-29 03:58Nanya01I'll give you an invite as well, Demi.
Despite the fact that you and I were never really friends nor did we see eye-to-eye, I always found that your attitude was one of the better ones out there, even if, sometimes, you and I got into arguments about things for Nanoha.
So, I give you an invite to come and join TFF.
- About Demi.
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