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2014-03-11 18:08Archon_WingAnother notable example is Ohana from Hana Saku Iroha. While at first she just seems like a generic plucky girl that wants to lighten things up, things are not so easy here, and the resistance from the inside and outside causes a lot of internal conflict. She runs through the whole gamut of emotions that one could possibly ever feel, and I think this kind of stuff at the end creates a realistic character that ends up the wiser after the story. Now, of course, I know you threw the series in the trash after that really bad episode, and yes, the other characters are idiots leading the series to collapse under its own mediocrity, but I think that should be additional credit to her.
Other picks include Tsuruko from Anohana who was the only sane one in a histronic atmosphere with a decent amount of wit and Motoko from Ghost in the Shell. Sure, season 1 was a bit silly with that stupid outfit, but the main personality from Motoko can't be denied-- she doesn't really give a fuck about what you think, and isn't subject to your desires.
2014-03-11 18:07Archon_WingExtended music video really describes .hack sign. If only someone bothered to write a script to fill stuff in, or maybe halve the series. Ironic that it would have worked in today's atmosphere well.
Dickbrains... enough said about that trash. I think people want things to have a shock value so they put a bunch of tasteless shit so they can be edgy. Something that will gross you out and shake you. But to that I use this analogy-- if one took a dump all of a sudden in public, that might also be gross and shock people. But there's no real value to that. And as for those dickbrains, what they did is pretty much no better. "You think your work is vile and disgusting? So is a piece of shit. And so are you."
I don't think you and I see much on the subject on characters if you would click on my MAL and arguably I probaly prefer more traditionally feminine characters, relatively speaking. Regardless Lain is a very interesting character despite the lack of input from her but on the other hand having someone that was basically a construct discover the concept of care, respect, and love for not only Arisu but humanity as a whole is a rather subtle development. Of course people just go "omg that's just pretentious bullshit" despite the fact that the concept is rather straightforward. And characters like Shiki and Kurisu are certainly in short supply in anime when they are the most needed. But if you really want mold breaking:
So I would definitely list Tomoyo from Clannad, because she is just drastically different from every other girl from not only that show but the grander scale of Key things. Probably the only other one is Yuiko Kurugaya from Little Busters that really has her own initiative. Unfortunately, Key has an obsession with girls that can't function on their own and while they've been getter with each work, it's not hard to find moments where you still want to punch the writers and even the better characters sometimes suffer from this.
Anyhow, while innocence and naivety are supposed to come across as moe, it often gets overused to the point where you again, want to punch someone. Tomoyo is just a bit more unfamiliar with other people's expectations but it's not like she's completely unaware either. But at the same time her straightforwardness makes it intimidating enough for people to not really comment on it, which confuses her even more, leading to some humorous scenes.
There's quite a few ones in which Tomoyo wants to handle her gender identity by acting more feminine with mixed results. In the end, it comes off to me as just accepting who you are and to not try and twist/bend to other people's opinions who don't even matter anyways. While most Key characters would collapse in these times of existential crises, this is where she thrives and establishes her character.
A lot of people accuse her (and later Yuiko) of being too "perfect", and this accusation is also levied against characters such as Mikasa from Titan. Yet, if any of these characters were dudes, they'd be cheering for how awesome ass kickers they are. Hmmph. Fear of competent women, I'd say! It was blatantly hypocritical in Titan since Levi is such a fan favorite.
This is of course more prevalent for Tomoyo in the original novel, but the anime did decently at getting the point across. And don't bother coming in contact in Tomoyo After; since it just decides to ignore all of this for generic characterization and melodrama, and shows why Jun Maeda can be quite the complete hack; not always, thankfully.
I think Fate (season 1-2 at least) is a decent point for me, since she is probably the core of a lot of the values I hold true. The thing about her is that at surface it seems like a classic pity parade, but then the story doesn't bother to whitewash any of her actions. It's not like "DURR this girl is sad and crying, and thus you should excuse her for any of her actions". And the fact that Fate really doesn't bother being a drama queen and tries to remain buisness like is a strong point considering the age they started at. And Nanoha is pretty unique too. Unlike other magical girls that are ditzy and afraid to fight, we have something else right her... I think RRR can fill the rest.
Misato from Evangelion is also quite a special character for me since she seems tied down by so much baggage, but ultimately she always perseveres to do the right thing. While she does occasionally fall into self pity, there's always the sense that no matter what, she's always trying to find a solution. Some may say she's tied down with her love, but I would say this is one of the few relationships where they are tied to each other. Note that despite all the womanizing Kaji seems to do, he never actually manages to really come down to it. Misato's the working person in this mess where everyone else is just flailing around with their own agendas.
2014-03-11 05:29Archon_WingWell glad you finished Erin and liked it. There were some really sketchy moments in the final stretch but the ending was one of the most awesome things I've ever seen. Storytelling works wonders. Your mentor seems determined though I would say that finishing every anime regardless of quality seems to be masochistic and a waste of time, to me at least. And what was their opinion of Uchouten Kazoku?
Back to teh Yuri, as you might have pointed out to RRR, that I do consider Nanoha to be an utter failure in this regard due to them treating Nanoha and Fate's relationship as well as certain other pairings as a plaything because as you noted, fans wanted to have their stupid cake and eat it too. Then again, we've seen terrible shit in the fandom where people throw fits when they find out favorite character isn't pure and subject to their sick fantasies. It's a bit cruel of me to say this, but sometimes said folks need some natural selection to deal with them.
I've always joked about Nana^2, but it's kinda scary how that it's quickly becoming the default option. Whatever happens, Takumi should be kicked to the curb, seriously.
Blue Drop is quite vile though I'm not sure if the anime took the same route. Strawberry Panic is pretty awful and pretends sexual harassment is just another dating method. Fuck off, indeed.
Of course, while Strawberry Panic can be written off as stupidity, it's not so easy to write off Kannazuki no Miko, because as you said, that piece of crap is actually cherished. Why the fuck is that a mainstay? They're both awfully written characters-- Himeko has no independent thought. She could just be a doll, and Chikane could be masturbating against it and it would still be a better anime. Well, it wouldn't be yuri, but at least it would become the trashy, badly animated smut it always wanted to be.
Chikane is plain creepy but we're supposed to sympathize with her because who the fuck knows. I guess she looks cool with that hime cut and has that aloof look. She wants to "protect" Himeko. Protect with dat serial killer rapeface at all times. I mean seriously, if she was actually a dude, how would people react to it? Most wouldn't think that's hot now that it's suddenly a guy. Well, some might, because they're sick fucks, but that's another story. I hate these the most-- it honestly feels more like a predator and prey relationship than any actual meaningful relationship.
Oh, and Chikane didn't rape Himeko with a flute, bro. It was actually the back of her sword. Yep, it's even worse than you thought. Tvtropes claims the anime toned down Chikane's sociopathy namely by cutting out most of the actual assault. Dear lord. Want to punch someone yet?
See, the whole point was for Chikane to make Himeko hate her so that the later would be able to kill the former to avoid a tragic ending. That's fine and all, but all you really get is throwing crap on the screen and attempting to justify it. Cuz you know, she's totally awesome and hot and if she needs to rape a few people in the name of justice, we've got to find a way to make that right too. All without a hint of irony. Lelouch she is not.
Fun fact, it was done by Kaishaku, and if you've seen any of their doujin, they just love to demean women a lot. Pity given their artwork. And according to wiki "The name comes from Kaishakunin (介錯人?), an appointed second person whose duty it is to decapitate one who commits seppuku". Right, after their readers kill themselves due to losing enough brain mass due to prolonged exposure to their work or getting a stroke due to its badness, they need to clean up right?
Meanwhile the anime was done by TNK, responsible for the even more vile School Days. And before anyone says it's just an adaptation work, one must remember they deliberately combined several bad endings for that show to make the most tasteless thing possible.
In summary, shit writers + shit studio = fucking burn in hell.
It was funny when we had a certain ending scene for an anime and then people were like to me: You don't get the reference; it's referring to KnM. I hated them for it, because really, I know the reference and that's exactly the kind of association I don't want to make. I pretty much responded with "I don't give a fuck".
As a side note, as boring as the anime .hack sign was, there was actually a notable yuri relationship that wasn't crap. It was based off trust and respect, and actually reached into some issues of gender and futuristic methods of communication not unlike Serial Experiments Lain. Of course, that kind of thoughtfulness is exceptionally rare, since the previous examples I put out lack them completely, but it's nice someone gives a fuck right? Aoi Hana also seems like one of those "give a damn" show and I'll finish that eventually.
2014-03-09 15:50Triple_RWhat I find with yuri (at least yuri anime) is that the vast majority falls into one of two categories. They are...
1) Pure lust/fanservice.
2) Pure romance (without the sex).
So it tends to be one extreme or the other. It's very rare to get full-fledged relationships that include serious romance and clear evidence of a sexual relationship. So most yuri pairings come across as dysfunctional - Either lacking any real sense of relational commitment, or being an oddly sexless romance.
I think this is because yuri anime is not primarily for lesbian viewers, or people looking for serious girl/girl romances. It's primarily for people looking for one of two things - "sexy" or "cute". And two girls instead of one girl/one boy gives an edge at a basic physical level - It's precisely double your sexiness/cuteness, double your fun (because the male half of a het pairing does nothing for many otaku viewers unless they can easily self-insert themselves into that character).
"Sexy" is also self-explanatory to the western mind. Lust/fanservice-based yuri is popular for much the same reason lesbian porn videos are.
"Cute" can be a bit trickier for the western mind to grasp. What I think is that many anime fans (especially VN players) like the sight of "early stages" first romance. They like it for its innocence, its sense of great untapped potential, and its youthful vibe. Over time, I've gotten the appeal of this myself, though where I differ is that I don't want a relationship to remain forever at this point, whereas some yuri fans do want to sort of freeze the relationship at this early stages point.
The thing about this early stages first romance is that it has a lot of elements that makes many anime fans go HHHNNNNNGGGG!!! The shy confession, the blushing tsundere denial, the presence of an emotional mask slowly peeling back, the hand-holding/arm-holding. It's "sweet", you could say. Again, having two girls instead of one girl/one guy simply doubles the cuteness. That's the trade-off - Double the cuteness, lose the self-insertion potential.
Yuri rarely has full-fledged relationships because the people looking for "sexy" yuri aren't necessarily the ones looking for "cute" yuri. It's similar to the fanservice/moe division you'll sometimes see. Some fanservice fans have no interest in something like Non Non Biyori or Tamayura, while some moe fans have no interest in something like Kampfer or Maken-Ki. Having the right blend of fanservice/moe to appeal to both sets of fans (without turning off either) can be tricky, especially in a yuri context since the yuri fandom is smaller than the total anime fandom.
Archon covered most of the other points that can be made here, so I'll leave it at this.
2014-03-09 03:05Archon_WingSimply put, gay people are evil, and they are up to no good. Have you ever heard of religious pundits spreading stuff about gays trying to "recruit" people? As if sexuality where this on and off switch, and statically defined.
The simple idea is that being gay is the wrong thing to do, much like a "do not enter" sign. Therefore, having a loving, consensual relation is impossible because homosexuals do not respect traditional aspects of love.
It's a way of saying "They're freaks! Enjoy the freakshow, and maybe masturbate to it"
It's also a threat to masculinity. Like I said before, some people cannot fathom sex without a penis because it means there is no way to exert control. In a number of porn and hentai, the penis is mightier than the sword. A woman that can't be subdued by a cock? Well, she must be defective. If females didn't need men for procreation, then men would be obsolete.
To make it more clear. A woman that can't be fucked or put out babies or take care of them has no use. This is what I mean by the huge amount of sexism in anime-- creating female characters just for consumption. Guilty Crown anyone?
All of these concepts come together in a certain manga known as Blue Drop. I've never seen the anime, but I have seen the source, and while they could have done some real commentary on gender and actually seemed to be going somewhere in the premise-- what they really did was write about evil lesbians as written by a guy's conceptions, fetishes, and fears. Yep, evil femnazi lesbian space aliens (who lost their males) brainwashing nubile young school girls into becoming lesbians, meanwhile the males are deprived and resort to sex with each other because obviously men are just sexual devices that need to fuck something that's around.
And of course they must make some of the males crossdress because something being fucked must be female. While situational sexuality has some relevance in certain contexts and certainly has some basis in reality, you can't help but feel that they're just taking these issues and kicking them around. You just get the feeling that the story is setting a certain message-- anything that threatens heterosexual relations means that everyone, including the aliens themselves will devolve into depravity. Because you know female humans are so hot that everyone must fuck them or go crazy and this even consumes the aliens too because well yuri is evil.
It could be argued that the evil is actually sexualization without love. But...
To add the shit icing on this piece of crap, we see that the lead's beautiful heterosexual love for his childhood friend-- the only real one that isn't just sexual desire and the only real heterosexual one-- is taken away due to what the aliens brainwashed his love interest to lesbianism. Because, you know, bisexual people don't exist. Oh no, what will people do without heterosexuality to protect them? And obviously you know what the goal is. The message is clear. The homosexual sexual relations is merely a mechanism to deal with the situation. It is not capable of having love or respect. It can only come through brainwashing and social conditioning. If only the aliens just had males to penetrate them, they'd all be living a just and heterosexual world. But of course, they twist it by claiming that they could use human men but choose not to because, like I told you, they're evil. Why bother making sense when you can draw tits?
Now, their actually was an interesting scenario which involves the MC male's best friend who's also a dude being genderswapped and they were coerced into a relationship of some kind. But that's buried underneath this pile of shit and quickly devolves into jokes about mrs genderswapped being anxious to get it on with other girls and every immature joke you could possibly find about a dude finding themselves in a female body.
It's a pretty unique combination of pretty much every homophobic fear and stereotype. It represents reactionary sentiment to an extreme degree. What a fucking hack. And I'm an idiot for being curious. I sometimes look up stuff to MST3k it like a cheap trashy b-movie, though it doesn't even deserve that kind of regard. But at least I have a story to tell, and no I don't care about spoiling this, because really it doesn't deserve any kind of respect.
What a hack.
2014-03-08 17:00Triple_RI agree - Cute is a legitimate preference, but it's not the only one. There's multiple different ways for a person to be physically attractive.
And yeah, I don't think any of the Winter 2014 shows really took off in a Madoka Magica or SAO or Attack on Titan sort of way. There's a few shows I've enjoyed, but the Fall 2013 carryovers are definitely my favorite currently airing shows right now.
I'm hearing you on the tomboy-focused idea. I'd like to see a show like that myself. Tomboy lead, futuristic setting (maybe a bit steam punk), grittier atmosphere. A show like that would be pretty cool right now.
I think what makes Mari Okada popular is three things:
1. Soap Opera style of writing. Slow paced, but plot-twisty, emphasis on emotions and carefully stringing both the characters and the audience along. The show takes on a bit of a life of its own.
2. There's certain character types I think she's pretty good with. Genki girls and yamato nadeshikos with a bit of an edge, for two. Okada is good at making relatively believable moe girls, in contrast to some moe girls that seem airheaded to a fault or very immature mentally.
3. Dialogue. The dialogue is occasionally funny, which helps, but mostly it just feels "true to life". At least relative to other anime shows. Basically, I think that Okada's characters have a tendency to "keep it real" in what they say even if their actions/choices can be odd at times (reflecting the soap opera feel I mentioned before).
It's fine if you or anybody else doesn't like Okada. Her style isn't for everyone, and I can see why. Some of her shows I didn't like much at all. But I think she's in a familiar vs. different sweet spot - Just familiar/conventional enough that she appeals to otakus, but different enough to stand out from the crowd. Most great anime are in that "sweet spot", in my opinion.
As for that MAD - That was a great watch and a nice song. I've read up on this anime, and while the incest bit worries me somewhat, I think I'm going to check it out. It has great character designs, and it looks promising. Thanks for sharing!
2014-03-07 19:31Archon_WingWell, whether something not is cute is an entirely subjective thing and isn't equated with moe either. The thing was that you listed a bunch of negative traits and I just didn't feel like those are exclusive to either gender. Well, nor is cuteness or moe or w/e you want to call it.
Although I see these instances as more of a coverup than a cause. One is a rotten person and tries to find socially acceptable means to cover it up. This facade can take many kinds, but I bet if I met them, I would watch my back for sure. But this only suggests that people who try to force something makes it an insincere and something that is bad. Forced moe? I don't really know how to put it. I'm just gonna say Kyoani.
You want more reasons? Remember the club I used to attend? They mainly watch pure moe stuff now. And if it's not that, it's pure violence. That wasn't the sole reason I left. It was because the president's girlfriend got felt up then stalked by one of the regular attendees. And what did that club do? They backed up the guy who did that to her and told me to get stuffed. Along with saying that female characters were only capable of being moe or cold-blooded like Revy from Black Lagoon. That anything involving highbrow or yuri was pure trash and sexist towards them. I don't regret leaving one bit. Cute has warped them to hell.
And don't get me started on how many people I know/used to know who now constantly spout that if a woman isn't cute, she isn't worth it. Or that if a title isn't cute, it can't be good.
Cute is a legitimate style/point of view. It isn't the only legitimate one.
I was afraid you'd fall into that trap but it seems like you didn't. Grats.
I was just complaining about something similar to someone else today about this. Someday I'm gonna deconstruct the hell out of this shit. Did you like Paranoia Agent?
Essentially the problem is forcing people into a x box. If the only way a female character can be considered of worth is that she has an endearing cuteness value or some kind of badassness, I'm just going to stop listening to people.
I find it hilarious that yuri is... sexist? wtf? Yuri CAN be sexist if the goal is simply to ogle two chicks getting it on without any kind of depth, but I bet it's because they can't fathom love and sex without a penis. That's the kind of shit that makes me want to throw a brick at them.
In this situation, I would definitely take this as a point where moe becomes a fetish. Something I've always thought but never really expressed adequately is that this excessive idealization causes unreasonable expectations especially towards real people and cleanly tears you away from reality. It's very much like certain bad effects of porn where one cannot accept bodies with flaws in them. In this case, it's with personalities.
I wonder if people on AS actually knew more about how I'm really like, that how much their opinions would change.
Heh, as for the evils at the end of your post, that's definitely where I get my bias from, to some degree.
And yes, I know that the situation is getting better. My point about not being overcome by hate has much do to with the necessity in surviving in a world that doesn't share your values.
You remember Kaiji right? Especially the human derby arc. It was a great way of depicting how they haves have everything and force the havenots to fight for the crumbs while they laugh. How do the haves make sure the havenots focus on fighting each other for the crumbs? By making them hate each other, despise each other, and ultimately kill each other. Racism and all other forms of prejudice are merely a form of control. During the American Civil War, a number of poor whites supported slavery because well, even though they didn't benefit and were just as exploited, at least there was someone below them... You can see this on a smaller level when looking at the anime community. Elitists look down on modern anime, narutards, and what not while failing to realize this hobby already suffers from preconceptions of people from the outside.
"It's not my problem" "It's not my problem"
And then nobody is left to help when it is your problem.
It's happenly rapidly today! People just don't give a shit about other people unless it affects them, and that can never lead to anything useful.
2014-03-07 16:53Triple_RFascinating wall discussion between you and Archon_Wing. I hope you won't mind me jumping in on it a bit.
I agree with you that each gender has its own distinct dark side. And I also agree that knowing this is very useful.
This may surprise you, since you know that I'm a moe fan, but I also largely agree that moe is pretty divorced from modern reality. That's actually partly why I like it - It's easily imaginable, but I don't think it exists to any significant degree in real life. So that makes it unique escapist fantasy.
2014-03-07 13:13Archon_WingBut Tomoya, he did get a job and shit, becoming a family man. I would say he regressed into crap after Nagisa died, so that's pretty telling.
Ocean Waves... eh, I'll look it up.
And Steins;Gate has some really development.
I'm sorry you didn't get the Okada joke, but yes I considered it a bunch of hate-filled, sexist drivel. It's kinda hard to not get offended when it concerns half the population when it considers I wouldn't want to say that to a number of people I respect and care about. I mean this is the internet. Sure there's no women on it, but what happens if I happened to be one? Would you have to make an exception? To me it's no different from speaking to a black person and going "oh damn black folks always steal and kill and shit while playing basketball over dead people's bodies. But not you! You're not really black!"
It's not like generalizations aren't wrong. There's usually a large element of truth. Many women are "manipulative, compulsively lying, cheating, self-absorbed, rude, aloof" and so are men too. Maybe most people are. But this world isn't so black and white, man. Sometimes these flaws run along side a larger spectrum of traits.
I'm not really trying to be PC here, I could give you a bunch of life experiences of which I've learned to recognize people as trash and be right anyways. I spent a lot of life thinking the world was full of hated and evil, and I never got along with authority figures. Sure some of the more relaxed teachers would think I was sorta funny, but other assholes that thought I should have their respect just because they were in that position. But of course, I grew up in an Asian family, of which a culture that stresses collectivization and blind worship and respect for authority.
My cousins would tell me to show elders respect for the sake of being older. They were really just trying to help; they knew I hated them but at least by offering a token of respect I'd at least get them to get things going along peacefully. Of course, I was younger and more vindictive, so everyone ended up hating me for it. And I ended up hating them for it, even if they were trying to help. And I made it pretty clear that some people had their time limited and I'll be waiting for the day their corpse gets tossed away like a bunch of trash.
And for this reason, I associated the other fellow students who followed the rules strictly to be a bunch of suck ups and they needed to relax. But that was stupid of me. When their parents would yell at them constantly and maybe beat them up for a B+? And that's considered a good joke? It was really a good thing my inner family wasn't bad about these matters.
Which came to my fortune that I came across someone that was aware of the situation but were above it all. Society is cruel, but unfortunately, it's not simply a reason to just flail one's arms and give up. Overcome and outlast those trash. If you get caught up in all the hate, then everyone that's hurt you as succeeded. Because you only think of them and will simply lack the power to overcome it. I never saw her again, and it's not like the advice was very unique either, but sometimes it just takes a little bit.
I think a lot of us see a lot of injustice in world and seek to overturn it, and then just fall into despair when you can't seem to do anything. But I only know one thing. As long as you are surrounded yourself in hate and expect the worse from people, defeat's the only possible option, and I feel that you are still wrapped up in it. You've seen worse days, and it's dumb to think that som self righteous moralistic douche from across the ocean that doesn't know you and doesn't even understand the context to going to change your life in a day, I admit. But it's not going to stop me from saying stuff like this.
Why do people lie and manipulate and do bad things to each other? Everyone has their different reasons. Some are sociopathic and downright evil, you'd agree. But what about others? Maybe they're doing it because they're been hurt too, and feel it's the way the world works. See, this is the exact reason why dwelling in hate can never work. When you think it's the norm to hurt other people, the rest is a self fulfilling prophecy. Hurt them before they hurt you.
- About Last Sinner
- 31 year old Aussie
- Summoner's Rift
- Anime, League of Legends, women (in no particular order)
- Data analyst
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Code Geass (both seasons)
Crest of the Stars
Kimagure Orange Road
The Tatami Galaxy
Galaxy Express 999
Now And Then, Here And There
Welcome to the NHK
Minami-ke (1st season)
Kaiji (1st season)
Kimi ni Todoke
Serial Experiments Lain
Fullmetal Alchemist (1st version)
Genshiken (1st season)
Nodame Cantabile (1st season)
Garden of Sinners
Voices of a Distant Star
Read or Die OVA
Beyond the Clouds - The Promised Place
The Sky Crawlers
Kiki's Delivery Service
Whisper of the Heart
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