Maybe Nanjo is like the Kingpin in that sense.

I've tried to suggest multiple times that it could be some sort of "faction" war. You could come up with tons of different ideas and get that Shannon has to stop Kanon from doing something or vice versa through murder, and that by one of the two being dead it becomes automatically impossible for the "losing" couple to achieve their dreams. No costumes or double identities needed. It's almost too literal, true, but who's to say that the magic scenes need to hide something overly complicated?

Now that I think about it, that "half-murder" is exactly what happened in EP6, and I distinctly remember Zepar and Furfur (remember: the personification of the rules) saying something about the fact that only one of them needs to die for the defeat to be complete. I can't recall the exact line since it's been a while, and obviously searching for something that vague will get me nowhere, but if anybody can help that'd be great :).

But anyways, the fact that the 2nd twilights never involve those four when they're involved (i.e. one of them dies) in the first twilight and always do when they aren't - and also the fact that Jessica survives to the end without fail in the former case - is almost a dead ringer for this, at least to me.

And I think it's a simple idea to work off of, if not a bit vague. You've got to come up with factions to have a faction war, of course, and mine are still a bit too fuzzy to articulate. I'm also not sure what implications some of these ideas have on who's responsible for the "explosion".

But my real point. It seems every time the duel gets brought up everybody immediately jumps to Shkanon and nobody bothers to think of it in a different way. And I'm not saying my idea's the only solution or way to think about it - quite the opposite, if anything - I'm just, in a nutshell, giving agreement by example :heh:.

Well, if the kids are looking worried, of course he's going to think that something's happened.

Here's another possible perspective.

Every game that's run to completion, except for 4, Kanon has confronted Beatrice.

If Shannon is Beatrice, this pattern continues in 6.

The Love Duel is the continued struggle of Kanon trying to stop Shannon from committing murder. Each time, Beatrice successfully offs him. Sucks to be Kanon.

Whenever I hear love trial I always get an image in my head of Jessica and George using Shannon and Kanon like pokemon. I have no idea why. Maybe it's because they seem to be the dominant people in the relationship. Or maybe I just want to see Jessica tell Kanon to use a splash attack.

In that case Kanon makes me think of Blastoise.

Ep5 quote:

Dlanor: "...So, once you claimed to have seen Kinzo, it was no longer misrecognition... ...In other words, this proves that the observer wasn't objective... is what you are SAYING...?"
Narration expands on that: "In this case, unintentional 'misrecognition' is not permitted by the rules of this game. However, it is possible to intentionally 'lie about seeing' something you never saw...!! And that is an action not permitted to a 'detective' burdened with the responsibility of an impartial perspective..."

Emphasis mine. I would say this is a pretty strong anti-disguise argument in general, because any disguise as someone else is in one way or another a misrecognition. People lie. Not just make mistakes, they also lie, including to themselves. Doctor House has good reasons to say that every chance he gets to. In many a circumstance this is a natural, logical and strategically sound thing to do. In some rare cases it's even a morally correct thing to do. :)

The sentence "In this case, unintentional 'misrecognition' is not permitted by the rules of this game. However, it is possible to intentionally 'lie about seeing' something you never saw...!!" refers to mistaking something for Kinzo, like a sheet fluttering in the wind. That is forbidden by the rules of the game, the red truth that no one would mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo by sight. This means that misrecognition is still allowed for anything not involving Kinzo. Still, I agree that people lie in Umineko, and there are most likely A LOT of lies in this story.

also @Renall.

Thank you, I hope you gouged and killed Shkanon good with that post, I absolutely detest that theory.

Renall you obviously didn't understand my point and wrote a lot of things which you told me already for nothing.

Basically your counters are mostly "the other assumptions are more logic", which is your personal opinion and has nothing to do with Occam's razor that favors "the least possible assumptions" and not the "most logic assumptions".

My point there was that with shkanon theory you requires less assumptions than any other system you decide to adopt.

I also made it quite clear that it means nothing in the contest of a story since Occam's razor doesn't work for fictional stories.

My point there was to counter Shiro Kaizen's claim that Occam's razor works against shkanon, not to promote the shkanon validity. Say that Shkanon theory is wrong if you want but not that it's wrong because Occam's razor dictates otherwise.

The fact that you need to make a lot of assumptions in order to explain how Kanon doesn't exist is totally meaningless considering there are no other options but to accept that one of the supposed existing 18 people does not in fact exist.

I don't think it is necessary to explain why among the 17 of original cast, there is no other person that is more likely to not exist than Kanon.
So if you want to reach a similar level simplicity you have no choice but to say that Erika doesn't exist.

However Erika not existing incurs in the same problems that Kanon. There are as many reds to prove Erika existence as there are for Kanon, and whatever distorted logic you use to justify Erika's non existence it can be used for Kanon as well.

Which means that the ghostErika and shKanon on this regard are in a perfect tie.
Except the fact that shkanon explains other things, while ghosterika does not. Which means that overall shkanon requires less assumptions.


I'm not going to reiterate old discussions. The point here is if Occam's razor works against shkanon or not.

Kinzo's liquor is actually poison.
It would explain Maria death in EP4. !Kinzo! Is doing her test, but where is Maria's test ? and how could she have joined Rosa ?

I don't like Shkannon too. thanks you Renall

I proclaim that Erika Furudo is the detective.

Every red regarding Erika explained.

Whereas every red in all six games related to Shannon and Kanon's corpses, their "deaths," etc. needs a desperate explanation. Let's not forget we are also required to make excuses for Jessica, Natsuhi, Genji, Kumasawa, Nanjo, and Krauss as to why they either don't know about or don't care about Shkanon. An entire romance subplot is rendered invalid by Shkanon, despite Ryuukishi's major theme being love.

What requires more assumptions, now?

Interruption. You need to make assumptions regarding the non-existence of any of the 18 people, regardless of any non-existence theory, but in the opinion of the people who fight against Shkanon, the assumptions used to deny Erika's existence are much more solid and harder to ignore.

I completely disagree with this logic. Shkanon explains two things which TapeErika struggles with in Episode 6, but creates huge logic holes established by Renall earlier and what we who refuse Shkanon have been arguing for weeks and months now. TapeErika establishes that there are still the original 17 people on the island, and as placing her as a meta-character, allows for logical procession. I haven't read Episode 6 yet, but due to Episode 5's unreliable narration, we can pass Erika as a fantasy character who existed throughout the entire Episode. Erika Assumption one: Episode 5's has an unreliable narrative, allowing her as a fantasy character to exist. Shkanon Assumption one: Episode 5 has an unreliable narrative, allowing both Shannon and Kanon to exist while being observed by Battler.
Without the reliable narrative of Episode 5, Erika's existence is shaken, while Battler's reliable narration of Episode 1-4 shows that he sees Shannon and Kanon, albeit never together. Applying logic, unless we assume Shkanon is a ninja, and can move around to appear as two people while being one, then Shkanon does not work. Shkanon Assumption two: Shkanon has abilities on par with a ninja.
As Renall stated above, Shkanon necessitates that several people are in on the scheme; more so, that George and Jessica have to be both either very ignorant or completely willing to be in a three-way relationship (one of which would be a homosexual relationship when both appear to have heterosexual interests). Shkanon Assumption three: There are people who are aware of Shkanon, but for reason x, don't bother to mention it. Shkanon assumption four: George and Jessica are very ignorant of their surroundings (possible for Jessica but highly unlikely for George), or one of them is homosexual, which goes against what we've learned about them.
Now, I acknowledge as an anti-Shkanon person, I might've ignored looking for TapeErika assumptions, but I'm confident that Shkanon require more assumptions, and more ridiculous assumptions, than other possibilities. Ergo, Occam's Razor works against Shkanon.

You do realize the scenes in which Kanon and Shannon appear in, the time frame is vastly different. Did you know Battler sees Kanon in 6 scenes ep1, 3 scenes in ep2, 1 or 2 scenes in ep3. 1 scene in ep4? And did you know as far as I can find the only people to see Shannon and Kanon together in the same scene in eps1-4 are Genji once not in a fantasy scene, Kinzo(XD that was a magic scene though) Kumaswa, Gohda, and Rosa all twice, the chapel scenes. I just thought that was overall interesting.

To assume Ghost Erika exists. 1. Erika is the identity of another character on the board. 2. Eirka either stays with Nanjo, or is him in ep5/ isn't him because we know where he is in ep6 and Erika isn't there. 3. Erika can be different people each game. 4. Erika is someone who has a good amount of infulence to the cast, but not a great deal, that they'd let them snoop around. 5. Erika must be someone who doesn't know about the fake death plot in ep5. 6. Erika by unknown reasons has to stay in the guesthouse, but she has to be someone who normally doesn't, so why does Person 'x' stay there in eps5-6 but not before. 7. Erika is shown to not like Jessica, but so far only Eva has been shown to not like Jessica. 8. Erika beheads Eva in ep6, so Erika must be able to change who she is, or it isn't Eva.

Absolutely not.

and that's an opinion which I disagree with and that has nothing to do with the concept of Occam's razor.


The unreliability of the narration of EP5 cannot in any way affect red truths. The red truths of EP5 and EP6 are by no mean inferior to the red truths of previous episodes. Which means that the hypothesis that Erika doesn't exist conflicts with reds as much as the no existence of Kanon.

There is absolutely nothing impossible with that. From Battler perspective there was never a case where he saw Shannon and Kanon on a short time from each other. Which means there wass plenty of time for "sayo" to change clothes and disguise.
The existence of a person able to disguise as someone else is practically a fact, because I hardly see how you can explain Battler seeing Beatrice. Incidentally Shannon and Kanon are both quite viable options for people that can disguise as Beatrice. So a Shannontrice theory implies by default that Shannon is able to disguise as someone else.

no. You made that up.


You are multiplying the assumptions here. It is only one: "there are people that know about shkanon and yet the stay silent".
this single assumption cover all that you said above.
Since we are already assuming that only Battler perspective is reliable (see point one) everything we see outside of Battler's perspective doesn't require another assumption to be considered unreliable, it's still the same assumption. That means every scene involving Shannon and Kanon with other people can be considered unreliable, including the scenes with George and Jessica.

So up to this point you only managed to find one more assumption with shkanon. But I named before the other assumptions you need to make without shkanon which are:

- Kanon is Kinzo (or whichever theory you decide to use to justify Kanon's freedom from the sealed room)

- A non better specified theory explaining the whole love test scenes

- The assumptions that Ryukishi planned a huge troll since EP3 and used up almost half of Ep6 just to that end.

Ryu07 said a lot of people got the key to the answer from EP6 already, but few have used the key to open the door.

Assume Shkanon is the key, then can anyone provide a good explanation for the following things:

1.What was lying on the floor of the garden shed in EP1?

2. Was Kanon an alternative personality of Sayo? A persona imposed by Sayo? An imaginatory person by Sayo? A real person but who has perished before the incident?

3. If Kanon had no distinct physical body from the beginning, why was he created?

4. Are all the red texts "Shannon died/was killed" or "Kanon died/was killed" redundant, considering that EP6 said that "a personality's death is also a death of person" because "people considers people with different personality, even with the same body, as two distinct beings (referring to sis-Beatrice and old-Beatrice by Featherine and Ange)?

(if it is true, all the cases from EP1-4 can be explained quite easily. Somehow it was supported by Ryu07's claim that if the way Battler was saved was the key to all closed-room mysteries in Ep1-4)

-------------------------------

Under the notion of "Without Love, it cannot be seen". THe most I could account for Shkanon, is this:


Yoshiya was such a frail boy. Even though he was already 16, his body did not allow him to do some simple labour. He had a pale complexion, and he was suffering from monochromacy. (I speculate X-linked recessive, a disorder of mutation in X chromosome) He was given the codename Kanon when he entered Rokkenjima at 13. Sayo has known him from the orphanage, treating him like her real brother. Due to his weak body and being unable to fulfill his duty, in fear of harsh punishment or firing by Natsuhi. Sayo started doing his jobs in order to cover him up. Of course, it was soon discovered by Genji. Ultimately, she proposed to Genji that she would bear Kanon's codename as well, such that indeed "Kanon" does finish his job. Genji agreed and kept this secrets from other people, fearing that other servants might complain Kanon for doing few but earning same salary.

While Kanon was better, sometimes he did show up. And indeed Jessica was attracted to him. However, he knew that his body was frail, and loving him would only a tragedy for both. Hence, he declined Jessica's confession, despite his intense love for her. In fact, he knew that his life would not be long

Why would Genji and Kinzo hired Yoshiya knowing he was so weak? It could not be helped, because both he and Sayo were children of 1967 Beatrice, products of Kinzo's effort to resurrect his lovers. Kinzo needed to have a close monitor on how these children fared closely. As Kinzo's close friend and family doctor Nanjo knew the condition of Yoshiya's illnesses. Of course 1967 Beatrice did not get pregnant throughout her lives, they were just biological children. Sayo was finally revealed that Yoshiya was her real sibing after Yoshiya arrived (EP2, after Sayo finished her middle school). They had to accept the fact they were inferior to humans, being born not out of love, but out of experiments. But they also owed their lives completely on Kinzo and Genji, since without them, they could not come to the world at all. The real reason why Sayo did not leave Rokkenjima, was not because she was shy, or she yielded to the habit, but really she wanted to take care of her brother. You may ask why Sayo and Yoshiya, it was because they shared half of their genes.

Yoshiya did go to Jessica's school to witness her performance.

A few days before 4th Oct, 1986, the condition of Yoshiya aggravated much, and Nanjo knew nothing could be done except to reduce his pain. The last wish of Yoshiya was to have a look on Jessica, but he knew he could not let her know his condition. He asked whether he could get close to Jessica by resting in Jessica's room (when she was not on Rokkenjia). Finally, Yoshiya was given euthanasia on Jessica's bed.

From this days, Sayo still could not bear to tell Yoshiya had died to Jessica. In fact, she had no other means other than to impose as a living Kanon. She knew it could not go on forever, but she did not want Jessica to suddenly receives the woe as well. She could not leave Rokkenjima since she did not want to hurt Jessica.

What's worse, she knew that George was going to propose to her. She dearly loved George, knowing he loving her as well. She wanted to leave the island and be with George, but she was torn by it because this meant Jessica's sorrow as well. She had to decide whether she would receive the proposal by Geroge to leave the island, or to reject it and continue to stay aside Jessica and maintain the Kanon mirage.

This was the choice between Shannon and Kanon, a decision she had not made till 4th Oct.

Without love, it cannot be seen.

If many people have the key, it must not be that hard to understand, but it may be hard to figure out how to use it in past eps.

As far as I see it ep6's logic error only has 2 answers many can come to without a ton of assumption and guesswork, or break the red.

Kanon doesn't exist, aka Shakannon
Kanon died in the guestroom.

Neither are easy to use to solve anything...

Nowhere does Ryukishi say that the key was first found in episode 6 or in any particular episode. Quit seeing things that aren't there! And if you read this he's just dodging the question. The question is for episode 6, but the key he's talking about doesn't seem to restricted to that. He probably expects you to find it in the question arcs.

he didn't say that it was the key to Battler's escape though he said it's the key that leads to the truth. I think they're unrelated.

Besides the part you quote, I also refer to this part of the interview.

And he talked returned to previous episodes. Through reading the whole interview, I took it to mean "return to question arcs". At least the key was in EP5, or EP6.

Well there are a lot of things in episode 5 we probably don't get. He's said stuff suggesting hints to Battler's sin are in there and that the land of the golden witch content is in there. But nobody seems to know where these things are. They're very well hidden.

EP5 hinting on Battler's sin, if I am correct, was at the scene when Battler asked when he promised something to Beatrice, then Beatrice said she was willing to die now. Blatantly showing Battler's sin was a forgotten/broken promise.

For EP6, it was the discussion between Featherine and Ange that Battler's sin actually created Beatrice.

I think your thinking of episode 4 not 5. Unless you mean the tea party or something. Beato is already dead in episode 5. She doesn't speak at all. Bern says this herself.