Spoiler for game route answer, and I haven't even played the game yet:
Well, that's their route in a nutshell.
The conflict between Kyou's own feelings versus being the supportive onee-chan and tending to Ryou's feelings.
Spoiler for More of me, sigh you:
You should said that she has self-problems.
And continuing with my speech:
She can't be both, good sister and hope-to girlfriend. IMO she should be the good sister, since she doesn't care anyone than Ryou. Proofs?
Episode 15: Nagisa was crying and Tomoya holding her shoulders, trying to say "be strong, Nagisa". Oh yeah, lets go! I gotta ruin that beautiful scene because my sister is in love with Tomoya.
Episode 16: I a- my sister is Tomoya's girlfriend and I won't accept you to talk with him!
DJ_RockmanX
2008-02-27 20:30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shana
(Post 1427567)
Spoiler for More of me, sigh you:
You should said that she has self-problems.
And continuing with my speech:
She can't be both, good sister and hope-to girlfriend. IMO she should be the good sister, since she doesn't care anyone than Ryou. Proofs?
Episode 15: Nagisa was crying and Tomoya holding her shoulders, trying to say "be strong, Nagisa". Oh yeah, lets go! I gotta ruin that beautiful scene because my sister is in love with Tomoya.
Episode 16: I a- my sister is Tomoya's girlfriend and I won't accept you to talk with him!
Well now we're getting into an opinion thing, and I'm not gonna participate in that battle.
Spoiler for Just so you know about the game route endings, which I have not played:
There are essentially two endings:
Ryou gets with Tomoya, which I think is the "good" ending that leaves Kyou to her unrequited feelings.
Kyou get with Tomoya, which I guess is the "true" ending that ends in heartbreak for Ryou and gives Kyou fans their fair share.
Rembr
2008-02-27 21:59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shana
(Post 1427567)
Spoiler for More of me, sigh you:
You should said that she has self-problems.
And continuing with my speech:
She can't be both, good sister and hope-to girlfriend. IMO she should be the good sister, since she doesn't care anyone than Ryou. Proofs?
Episode 15: Nagisa was crying and Tomoya holding her shoulders, trying to say "be strong, Nagisa". Oh yeah, lets go! I gotta ruin that beautiful scene because my sister is in love with Tomoya.
Episode 16: I a- my sister is Tomoya's girlfriend and I won't accept you to talk with him!
Tomoya told Kyou he was single, what's she to think?
Also despite her feelings she didn't take an initiative to back down on her promise to her sister.
Don't really see anything wrong with her yet.
Shana
2008-02-27 22:08
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rembr
(Post 1427751)
Tomoya told Kyou he was single, what's she to think?
Also despite her feelings she didn't take an initiative to back down on her promise to her sister.
Don't really see anything wrong with her yet.
He told her he was single, not that they'll hang out and she's going to take away every girl tries to talk to him.
And, I'm NOT saying that she's trying to back down the promise she did to Ryou, I'm saying that it seems like if she's using Ryou as a truck to be with Tomoya.
Rembr
2008-02-27 22:16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shana
(Post 1427758)
He told her he was single, not that they'll hang out and she's going to take away every girl tries to talk to him.
Huh, he told her he was single. Which meant he was fair game as far as romantic advances go.
Quote:
And, I'm NOT saying that she's trying to back down the promise she did to Ryou, I'm saying that it seems like if she's using Ryou as a truck to be with Tomoya.
That was the whole conundrum with the Fujibayashi sisters no? It's not really as simple as who was in the wrong, it was a pretty much a lose-lose situation for them. Fortunately in the end both their feelings were honored by each other.
tripperazn
2008-02-27 23:07
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shana
(Post 1427758)
He told her he was single, not that they'll hang out and she's going to take away every girl tries to talk to him.
And, I'm NOT saying that she's trying to back down the promise she did to Ryou, I'm saying that it seems like if she's using Ryou as a truck to be with Tomoya.
"All's fair in love and war." I personally can't fault her for actively trying, and it's not like she has a conspiracy going. Hanging out and trying to monopolize the guy you like is considered bad?
You can't criticize Kyou like that without criticizing Ryou in the same way, I'll just leave it as that. Play Kyou's route and you'll know what I mean.
Ice Block
2008-02-28 05:35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shana
(Post 1427758)
He told her he was single, not that they'll hang out and she's going to take away every girl tries to talk to him.
And, I'm NOT saying that she's trying to back down the promise she did to Ryou, I'm saying that it seems like if she's using Ryou as a truck to be with Tomoya.
Kyou prioritizes her imouto over anything else (roughly), and that includes herself and Tomoya.
Spoiler for detailed and lengthy spoilers on Kyou's route:
Summary from Ryou's confession to Kyou's confession
Ryou confesses to Tomoya and asks him if they can go out. Tomoya agrees. Kyou's plan to get Tomoya together with her sister succeeds. They go on a date several days later. Ryou urges Kyou to tag along (so says Ryou), and Kyou comes up with a plan to get Tomoya to "score points" for Ryou - going window shopping and indirectly showing to Tomoya the stuff Ryou likes.
They then come upon a jewelry shop where the sisters find pendants that have gemstones on them (Ryou prefers the Tanzanite pendant while Kyou prefers Amethyst). Kyou signals to Tomoya to remember what Ryou liked so he may buy it secretly and give it to her later, and then she tells the group to go buy a shirt for Tomoya to distract Ryou from buying the pendant.
The first sign of Tomoya preferring Kyou over Ryou was when he preferred long hair over short hair. The sisters, however, don't think too much of this (at least it seems at first).
Holidays are approaching, and Tomoya asks Ryou out on a date. She agrees to go out on Monday, coz she has a course orientation during the weekends. On Saturday, Tomoya wastes time at the shopping district. He meets Botan, and consequently, Kyou. They take Botan on a walk. Kyou buys some tarot cards for Tomoya to give to Ryou. They then come upon an open field. Kyou tells Tomoya that this is Botan's most important place coz this is where she picked him up.
They then talk about how this will soon become a garage ore someone's mansion, coz the city will always change - Botan will then no longer have an important place [? this line sounds wierd]. Tomoya tells here that the most important place to Botan is with Kyou, since she is now her new family. Kyou then comments Tomoya on how he can say such words from time to time, and thanks him.
Kyou then suddenly asks Tomoya about Ryou - about how they are doing, and if they have kissed yet. Tomoya answers "no", and Kyou asks him if they can practice. Tomoya agrees. Kyou tells him to think of her as Ryou - to come close to where he can't see her long hair. Kyou stops him violently just when they are about to kiss. Then continue walking Botan home, and Kyou thanks Tomoya for various stuff (Tomoya asks "for what?" but Kyou just says "for various stuff" or something like that).
The next day, Tomoya goes to the jewelry shop to buy Ryou's pendant, but he ends up buying Kyou's one instead (though he really didn't mean to buy the wrong one).
Monday comes, and Tomoya hurries to the shopping center coz he's already late for his date with Ryou. He forgets to bring the pendant with him, but doesn't bother going back. The date went fine, and they ended up kissing in the fortune telling game booth.
The next day at school, rumors spread that Kyou and Tomoya are going out coz someone saw their "kissing practice" scene last Saturday. Because of this, Kyou starts distancing herself from Tomoya to clear up the rumors. Sunohara asks Tomoya if the rumors are true, and he flatly denies it, saying that he is going out with Ryou. Sunohara then asks him if he really does like Ryou, and Tomoya is unable to answer.
A few days [?] later, Kyou asks Sunohara [!] to go to the courtyard after school. Sunohara brags to Tomoya that he may be confessed [!!] to, and that he (Tomoya) not interfere with his (Sunohara's) happiness. After school, Tomoya secretly watches over the confession scene. Kyou notices him, giving him a sharp [?] glance (at this time, Kyou had already confessed to Sunohara). Sunohara asks Kyou if she really is serious. She the proves to Sunohara that she is indeed serious by closing in on him for a kiss (while giving Tomoya a pained [?] glance). Tomoya decides to call out to them and stop this scene, but is stopped in hesitation when Sunohara suddenly stops Kyou. He asks her if she's forcing herself, coz apparently, her hands are shaking. Kyou quickly steps away from Sunohara. He then asks her if she really liked him (Sunohara). He tells Kyou that maybe she liked Tomoya all along. Kyou is speechless from this, and then she gives Tomoya the same painful stare. Sunohara notices this, and Tomoya is forced to come out. Kyou then runs away from the scene.
In his room after school as always, Sunohara then tells Tomoya that Kyou perhaps planned to go out with him (Sunohara) just so she can find an excuse to be near Tomoya. Sunohara comments that perhaps Kyou really did like Tomoya that much coz she'd go that far.
The next day, Ryou invites Tomoya to eat lunch with her, saying that she tried hard to cook and that her sister helped her too. At lunch, Tomoya notices Kyou's trademark pork cutlets that he praised he for. Ryou tells him that those are the only things that her sister made. After lunch, while heading from the washroom to class, Tomoya meets Kyou. She remains distant from him, not even giving the usual simple greetings. She passes by Tomoya, and then he tells her that the pork cutlets were good as always. She doesn't mind this, and continues to ignore him.
School festival came, and Ryou invites Tomoya to eat ice cream with her at the courtyard. They and up kissing there, but then Tomoya notices someone that saw them form far away behind Ryou - Kyou. She (Kyou) runs away from the scene with teary eyes. Tomoya abruptly stops the kiss, making Ryou feel worried that someone might have seen them.
Two days after the school festival, Ryou again invites Tomoya to eat with her. She tells him that she cooked the food herself this time. Tomoya notices that Ryou's hands were wrapped in bandages, causing Ryou to come up with an excuse (buying drinks) to run away from him. At the courtyard, Tomoya, holding Ryou's bento, notices Botan. The boar runs to him, and he infers that Botan may be hungry. He then notices Kyou coming towards them with her usual (smiling) expression (Tomoya sees this as a very painful smile). She tells him that he better eat all of Ryou's lunch coz she (Ryou) worked really hard this morning. Tomoya returns Botan to Kyou, and she heads back to the school building - meeting Ryou on the way. The sisters, however, acted as if they were ignoring each other, and Tomoya asks Ryou if they had a fight. She explains that because Botan is with Kyou, they can't stop suddenly coz that will surely frighten the boar (Botan being afraid of / hating Ryou has been demonstrated several times throughout the game).
After lunch, Kyou's classmate meets the pair as they head back to class and asks Ryou if she could return a dictionary [!] she (classmate) borrowed from Kyou to her (Kyou). Ryou then asks if her sister was not in class, and she tells them that Kyou had to head home. Hearing this, Ryou agrees to return the dictionary to Kyou.
Tomoya sleeps during afternoon classes as usual. He wakes up to the sound of raindrops. Looking out the window, he notices Botan soaked in the rain by the school gates and looking at him. Tomoya understands that Kyou could not have left Botan alone, so he went out to the school gates. Botan then leads him to Kyou, standing still in the rain as if she was waiting for someone.
Conversation is as follows minus Tomoya's internal monologues (taken from baka-tsuki translation):
Spoiler for saving space:
Tomoya: ... Kyou...
Kyou: Don't come...!
Tomoya: .....
Kyou: Don't come... any closer...
Kyou: ... I'm... begging you...
Tomoya moves towards her.
Kyou: ... why'd... you come here...?
Tomoya: .....
Kyou: School... isn't over yet...
Tomoya: ... I saw Botan from inside class...
Tomoya: I thought it strange, since I heard you left school early..
Kyou: ... I told you... not to worry about me...
Tomoya: Don't say such crap...
Kyou: ... I told you... it's better to think about your girlfriend... about Ryou...
Tomoya: .....
Kyou: I told you to... leave me alone...
Tomoya: ... you think I can...
Kyou: ... you have to leave me alone...!
Kyou: I'm... her older sister...
Kyou: We're twins...
Kyou: You definitely... can't worry about other people...
Tomoya: .....
Kyou: And obviously... I definitely... can't worry about... other people...
Kyou: I knew that... was what I had to do...
Kyou: Seeing you guys get along so well... was painful...
Kyou: The two of you being "lovers" was painful...
Kyou: I'm such a terrible girl... telling you to go out with her...
Kyou: Ryou... told me that she kissed you...
Kyou: And she helped me, and said, "Thank you, onee-chan"...
Kyou: In the beginning, I smiled hearing that. I told Ryou I was glad for her.
Kyou: But as soon as I went to my room, my chest felt tight... painful...
Kyou: See, the day before yesterday...
Kyou: ... when i saw you guys...
Kyou: It shouldn't be strange at all... should it...
Kyou: Since you guys are going out... somehting like that... is the right thing to do...
Kyou: That wasn't... your first time... at all... was it...
Kyou: But... when I realized it, I started to cry...
Kyou: I couldn't stop myself...
Kyou: I couldn't stop it, no matter how many times, how many times I told myself...
Kyou: I... can't see you guys... normally anymore...
Kyou: Even today at lunch... when you guys were there, it was like that day...
Kyou: Thinking that, I couldn't be in school anymore...
Kyou: ... it's too late...
Kyou: ... to realize that... it was deceiving...
Kyou: ... I was scared...
Kyou: I was scared of confessing...
Kyou: If... I confessed... and were rejected, we couldn't talk together as friends anymore...
Kyou: ... I thought I could just be by your side...
Kyou: Just be like that, as friends...
Kyou: Like that, it wouldn't be painful... that's what I thought...
Kyou: That's why I kept in my feelings...
Kyou: ... I regret it...
Kyou: Ahaha... I'm an idiot...
Kyou: Deciding things by myself... I regret it...
Kyou: I'm... so cruel...
Kyou: Getting you and Ryou close together...
Kyou: Telling Ryou to give it her best...
Kyou: I shouldn't have told here to do anything at all...!
Kyou: I would have been better off confessing...!
Kyou: I never thought about that in my mind!!
Kyou: I... hate myself!!
Kyou: Pretending to give other people trouble, not thinking to myself...
Kyou: Not wanting to hurt myself, yet wanting to hurt others...
Kyou: I hate that about myself!!
Tomoya moves towards Kyou and hugs her from behind.
Tomoya: Kyou...!
Kyou: .....!
Kyou: W... hy...?
Tomoya: .....
Kyou: Do you... know what... you're doing...?
Tomoya: You know... what will happen, don't you...
Kyou: .....
Kyou: I had decided to... forget trying at all...
Kyou: But...
Kyou: You're... kind to me...
Tomoya: .....
Kyou: It's cruel...
Kyou: I should have coldly pushed you away...
Kyou: I should never have known this...
Kyou: ... I should never have known... how warm this was...
Kyou: ... I'm sorry...
TOmoya: ... eh?
Kyou: ... I'm sorry... I... like you...
Tomoya: .....
Kyou: That's why... don't be kind to me...
Kyou: I'm an... idiot, see... it's wrong to be nice to me...
Kyou: If you'll... be nice to me... I won't be able to take it any longer...
Tomoya: I... about you, I...
Kyou: Tomoya...!
Tomoya slowly lets go of Kyou. Facing him with her back, Kyou closes her eyes once. Doing that, she says with a small voice, smiling.
Kyou: Bye, bye...
Kyou then walked away, with Botan chasing after her. When she was out of Tomoya's lign of sight,
Tomoya: ... Kyou...
I may have missed some stuff (the fortune telling stuff notably). More stuff happened afterwards. I suggest you play the game :heh:.
:topicoff: Lol, now I'm hoping for a third season featuring Misae's, Yukine's, Sunohara's, Kyou's and Kappei's routes, and a fourth one on Tomoyo After, with the first few eps being the latter part of Tomoyo's route in Clannad.
Used Can
2008-03-06 16:34
Kyou did prioritise her sister's feelings but, at the same time, she was also using her to be close (not as in lovers, just close as friends/family) to Tomoya, due to her own insecurities. Kyou said that much herself. Ryou knew that much from the very beginning and didn't say a thing, though.
Anyway, as for Kyou's reaction in Chpt.18 (when she got angry after watching Tomoya being happy with Nagisa), anyone who has played Kotomi's route will know that was completely out of character. Kyou would never have behaved like that.
isteb-isteb
2008-03-07 15:30
was watching lucky star again, then i saw ep 10 and in there Konata was calling Kagami "Kyo-Chan"
not only are kagami and kyou like clones of each other, and now their names can be read the same way too? ataya no?
Rembr
2008-03-07 16:04
Hiiragi and Fujibayashi do have an uncanny resemblence but the similarities are coincidental... unless Yoshimizu really liked Clannad.
And Kagami's name does not mean the same thing as Kyou's, although they can be read the same way.
Joachim
2008-03-08 00:52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rembr
(Post 1446260)
Hiiragi and Fujibayashi do have an uncanny resemblence but the similarities are coincidental... unless Yoshimizu really liked Clannad.
And Kagami's name does not mean the same thing as Kyou's, although they can be read the same way.
let see:
- the younger sister got short hair while the older sister got long hair check!
- The younger sister is more.. well quiet, can't really do house work(cooking), while the older sister can cook well (guess what, kyou is excellent cook, while ryou is kinda lame)
- The younger sister is moe inducing, while the older sister.. well what is kyou again? :heh:
- They are twins :heh:
and yea while watching lucky star, i keep on getting the vibe of fujibayashi sister when watching hiiragi sister,but i don't know which come first, the fujibayashi sister concept or hiiragi sister, not that big deal though
dgreater1
2008-03-08 06:17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can
(Post 1444034)
Kyou did prioritise her sister's feelings but, at the same time, she was also using her to be close (not as in lovers, just close as friends/family) to Tomoya, due to her own insecurities. Kyou said that much herself. Ryou knew that much from the very beginning and didn't say a thing, though.
Anyway, as for Kyou's reaction in Chpt.18 (when she got angry after watching Tomoya being happy with Nagisa), anyone who has played Kotomi's route will know that was completely out of character. Kyou would never have behaved like that.
Actually, I didn't find it out of character. She's jealous about Nagisa, but she's not jealous about Kotomi, the reason is Kotomi has a different charm than Nagisa that makes them love her. Remember how Kyou described her as someone who tickles their maternal instincts? I believe someone someone who feels like that towards Kotomi can't be jealous of her. But anyway, what I believe is it didn't really occur to Kyou's mind that her plan to get Ryou x Tomoya will change to using Ryou to have Kyou x Tomoya :heh:
Klashikari
2008-03-08 06:37
The other point is that Kotomi hardly has a "love potential" approach in comparison with Nagisa. Kotomi was more clingy in term of "need assistance" than really a love rival despite kyou mentioned.
The other stark difference is that kyou was proactive and trying to match Ryou during the anime, which did not happen in Kotomi's route. the difference is big enough to leave such different reaction and regret (i can't exactly see that as anger).
I don't see that OOC, especially that her "breakdown" is more like what happened with Ryou, not Nagisa. She wasn't devastated that nagisa won, but how Ryou figured out her true feelings.
This is adapted conjoncture of the fujibayashi twins route, it is perfectly fitting Kyou.
isteb-isteb
2008-03-08 13:32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joachim
(Post 1447211)
let see:
- The younger sister is more.. well quiet, can't really do house work(cooking), while the older sister can cook well (guess what, kyou is excellent cook, while ryou is kinda lame)
- The younger sister is moe inducing, while the older sister.. well what is kyou again? :heh:
in L*S though, It's ryou er... tsukasa who can cook while kagami can make pots explode. (according to konata, at least)
is the word you're looking for... dare i say it? "tsundere"? i don't know why so many fans make a huge fuss over this description of kyou. or is it the term itself they're fussing about?
Rembr
2008-03-08 15:49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can
(Post 1444034)
Anyway, as for Kyou's reaction in Chpt.18 (when she got angry after watching Tomoya being happy with Nagisa), anyone who has played Kotomi's route will know that was completely out of character. Kyou would never have behaved like that.
Game and anime are supposed to be independent entities, although one is based off the other. That doesn't make them a complete clone.
By the way, how is the movie? Are those people 'in character' compared to the game?
Klashikari
2008-03-08 16:10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rembr
(Post 1448603)
By the way, how is the movie? Are those people 'in character' compared to the game?
Not. even. close.
For that matter, please rather check the CLANNAD the movie thread instead.
germanturkey
2008-03-08 17:16
*sigh* i'm sad she lost. oh well, i'll play her arc in the game in the coming week. anyways, am i the only one who's offended by the criminal lack of Kyou in the last two eps?
kyoulover
2008-03-09 00:47
Quote:
Originally Posted by germanturkey
(Post 1448796)
*sigh* i'm sad she lost. oh well, i'll play her arc in the game in the coming week. anyways, am i the only one who's offended by the criminal lack of Kyou in the last two eps?
Don't worry...
of course i...as the one who now is really love kyou also offended with the lack of kyou in this recent episode...
although now i think i can accept this condition where she lost to nagisa though...
but still...i'll still love kyou the most.
Used Can
2008-03-09 22:11
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgreater1
(Post 1447628)
She's jealous about Nagisa, but she's not jealous about Kotomi, the reason is Kotomi has a different charm than Nagisa that makes them love her.
Kyou had grown to like Nagisa (in the game, and in the anime) as well. In Kotomi's route, she and Tomoya treated the three girls (Kotomi, Nagisa, and Ryou) pretty much the same. Also, Nagisa has that kind of childish charm which makes you like her (as in cute, sort-of-stubborn, and naive - not precisely in the same way as Kotomi, though) too.
My main point was that in Kotomi's route, it was made clear that she cared for Tomoya's feelings before hers. When she realised he probably liked Kotomi, all she did was to tell him Kotomi most likely liked him, ask him if he liked her, somewhat encourage him and then sort of tell him Ryou liked him too (although it was obvious Tomoya didn't feel anything for her). Then, a bit later - when it was clear Tomoya liked Kotomi - Kyou helped those two to be together.
The only time Kyou got jealous of someone was Tomoyo, and in her case, Kyou wasn't her friend, and didn't even like her. Yes, she went as far as to slap Tomoyo but, once Tomoyo and Tomoya talked to her, she understood, and even became Tomoyo's friend. In the anime, Kyou was already supposed to be good friends with Nagisa. Having her get angry at him for "being with Nagisa and not with Ryou" (even when she realised he was happy with Nagisa) was OOC, in my opinion.
We only saw her unable to control her feelings when she knew Tomoya liked her back (as in, Tomoya making it obvious he liked her). That never happened in the anime; the scene in the storage room didn't make up for that, since it was made clear it was a misunderstanding (both, in the game and the anime). This is why I think having her cry wasn't up to her character.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari
(Post 1447644)
The other stark difference is that kyou was proactive and trying to match Ryou during the anime, which did not happen in Kotomi's route. the difference is big enough to leave such different reaction and regret (i can't exactly see that as anger).
Yes but, as I already mentioned, what made Kyou unstable (in her route) was Tomoya's feelings toward her. Tomoya didn't like her (in the romantic sense) in the anime, and didn't do anything to make her believe he did. Also, even in her route, she was pushing Tomoya aside.
dgreater1
2008-03-09 23:02
Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can
(Post 1451486)
My main point was that in Kotomi's route, it was made clear that she cared for Tomoya's feelings before hers. When she realised he probably liked Kotomi, all she did was to tell him Kotomi most likely liked him, ask him if he liked her, somewhat encourage him and then sort of tell him Ryou liked him too (although it was obvious Tomoya didn't feel anything for her).
That's not really what I see. Kyou realized that Kotomi likes him and was serious, and because it's Kotomi, she couldn't get jealous at all. She even said that despite Ryou knowing Kotomi is her love rival towards Tomoya, Ryou gladly accepted that Kotomi needs Tomoya more and gave up. Kyou didn't prioritized Tomoya's feeling but gave him to Kotomi, because she knew how much Kotomi treasures him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can
(Post 1451486)
Having her get angry at him for "being with Nagisa and not with Ryou" (even when she realised he was happy with Nagisa) was OOC, in my opinion.
Wait... she was angry? I didn't see her really angry, more like concerned jealousy because Nagisa and Tomoya were enjoying themselves together. Anyway, the crying part (devastated) was because she realized that Ryou knew about her feelings to Tomoya. That's why Ryou told her "Sorry" because she was using her despite she knew about Kyou's real feeling. Just imagine how it feels to know that your "get together" plan for your sister actually back fired at you. If you plan to get someone to love someone, you shouldn't be in love with that someone for it to truly work out.