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james0246 2012-09-19 00:20
[Manga] Naruto Chapter 602 Discussion Thread
 
Welcome to the weekly manga chapter discussion thread. This thread is created early to discuss spoilers and speculation about the upcoming chapter as well as discussion of said chapter once it has been released.

As per the forums rules, please don't ask for or mention about where to download the (licensed) manga. Also remember not to post or link to any translations of the manga, since this is illegal as well. Posting a synopses or summary is fine (and welcome) but please do not discuss scans, raws, translation groups, etc. Additionally, if you are posting someone else's synopsis (or their translation of a synopsis), then please provide credit were credit is due.

Remember that the manga is licensed, do not post significant parts of the chapter. This stands for pictures and direct translations. Summaries are OK, crops of pictures are OK as well if you want to illustrate your point but this is it.

milan kyuubi 2012-09-19 01:38
Chapter is out...

It seams Obito survived by somehow using Kamui. Madara sure looks creepy. It seams Madara brainwashed Obito, since neither of them could leave that cave for who knows how long. I still don't think Obito would buy in that bullshit about this reality being hell. I just hope there is more to Obito becoming Tobi then simple Rin dieing. Also it's confirmed that Madara gave Nagato his eyes. It seams Tobi wasn't actually lying when he said Madara gave Nagato his rinnegan. But how did Madara knew Nagato is going to survive. Since for an example if Konan haven't found him, he would be dead. Also how did he expect Nagato to resurrect him, when Nagato knew nothing about this. It smells like a plot hole to me.

Arkard 2012-09-19 01:45
Gotta love how Obito is concerned that Madara wants him to "service" him in return for saving his life.:heh:

j0x 2012-09-19 01:45
that confirms it Zetsu (Harashima's artificial body) is the reason why Madara is alive for a lot of years and why Obito has a body

Kowai 2012-09-19 01:46
Kind of a crappy chapter... Not much was revealed.

I wonder how long until we can see what oro, sasuke, and co are up to.

prakash123 2012-09-19 01:49
I dont think obito used kamui to slip through.I think it's a sharingan space time tech.his sharingan has to be special.kamui is an ms tech.also i saw once oh naruto wiki that tobi uses spacetime and kamui.so we saw some bodies like zetsu and confirm obito has hashirama in him.but from what we see in this chapt the cause of obito/tobi's outcome has to be more than just a mere death of rin.

MAX_COLA_POWER! 2012-09-19 01:52
No one complain about the Uchihas here, you'll get bad reps from unknown conveniently hidden Uchiharem members. So what did we learn today?

1- A man who has lost half his body will crawl through heaven and hell just to go back to his crush in hopes of still getting laid.

2- Madara: This reality we live in is hell (if we translate to modern language) I'm just mad salty that my clan are all pansy-ass noob that betrayed me and that I lost to a wood style using scrub, so I rage quit.

I take back the comment I posted earlier about the Uchihas being bitter, especially when they're virgins. Itachi was the only cool one. If Obito's only reason really turns out to be because Rin died, I wonder how people will defend this when in the back of their head they know, it's not a very good reason?

Kafriel 2012-09-19 02:01
And so the story goes...I'm as confused as Madara when it comes to Obito not turning into steak sauce after being crushed by a huge rock.

Have the origins of the gedo mazo been stated anywhere?

Essenar 2012-09-19 02:22
Quote:
Originally Posted by milan kyuubi (Post 4358984)
Chapter is out...
Sigh.

It amazes me how much the term 'plot hole' gets thrown around here. It's abused really.

Where to start:
Spoiler:


I don't think it's that far fetched. This is a manga about ninjas with magic powers dude, not Real World or a Coen brothers movie.

j0x 2012-09-19 02:25
soon we will confirm that Rin's death is the reason why Obito became Tobi... still better love story than Twilight

milan kyuubi 2012-09-19 02:27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Essenar (Post 4359019)
Sigh.

It amazes me how much the term 'plot hole' gets thrown around here. It's abused really.
Madara giving Nagato his eyes. And them somehow expecting Nagato to revive him later on. When Nagato knew nothing of this. This is a plot hole. Madara didn't know Obito will show up in his hideout when he gave the eyes to Nagato.

Slick_rick 2012-09-19 02:39
Quote:
Originally Posted by milan kyuubi (Post 4359030)
Madara giving Nagato his eyes. And them somehow expecting Nagato to revive him later on. When Nagato knew nothing of this. This is a plot hole. Madara didn't know Obito will show up in his hideout when he gave the eyes to Nagato.
To be fair, none of those need be connected. Madara could have given Nagato to eyes for other reasons other than reviving him and that only come up later. I'm also pretty sure we have no definitive evidence that Nagato knew nothing about reviving Madara. He could have easily knew and chosen instead to revive the village. I think that was heavily implied by Tobi too on a few different occasions. Madara could have also logically have found other means besides Obito to carry out his plans, since he seems to have been carrying parts of it out already before Obito showed up.

I think most people just don't think through all the alternatives before saying plothole.

ranchan13 2012-09-19 02:42
The more I try to grasp Obitroll being Trollbi, the more I feel like I'm getting trolled to death by the writer. Unless this flashback runs a good 6-10 chapters, I doubt we'll ever get enough information on how Obito became Trollbi.
Sadly, a 6-10 chapter flashback might make me stop reading this manga completely. Damn you catch 22

Vladrave 2012-09-19 02:42
So far this is getting interesting for me. I want to find out how obito then become tobi or something and what happened to madara. This is at least getting my hopes back.

milan kyuubi 2012-09-19 02:49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick (Post 4359047)
To be fair, none of those need be connected. Madara could have given Nagato to eyes for other reasons other than reviving him and that only come up later. I'm also pretty sure we have no definitive evidence that Nagato knew nothing about reviving Madara. He could have easily knew and chosen instead to revive the village. I think that was heavily implied by Tobi too on a few different occasions. Madara could have also logically have found other means besides Obito to carry out his plans, since he seems to have been carrying parts of it out already before Obito showed up.

I think most people just don't think through all the alternatives before saying plothole.
It certainly possible. But Madara giving his eyes to Nagato was so Nagato could revive him later on. That's what Madara basically stated in previous chapter himself. It feels off to me that Madara would give his eyes to a child, and then expect the said child to revive him when the child has no idea of this. And Nagato believed Tobi to be Madara, so he certainly didn't know about the real Madara.

Tho we still don't know the full story, Kishi can easily fanwank this into something pretty good.

MysticNinjaJay 2012-09-19 03:00
People who are trashing the idea that Obito could "turn" because Rin died are overlooking one important point.....

The Uchiha are distrusted by the leaders of the Leaf Village because of the betrayl of Uchiha Madara. Obito is under the influence of the man who knows the full history of the Uchiha clan and their relationship with the Senju. A story that he told to Sasuke. This is more about Rin. I highly doubt a friend dying would make Obito go crazy like that. But if he was brain-washed in to believing that Madara's goal of Infinite Tsukiyomi could benefit mankind that would rationalize all of the evil things he did in Madara's name.

Rin's death could simply be the traumatic event that lead Obito to seeing Madara's
vision as the right direction for his life. Plus he is in a very vulnerable situation.

SeanQ 2012-09-19 03:07
Chicks...they are the cause of all evil - Obito.

Raph 2012-09-19 04:14
Essenar: Wow I like the content of your spoiler. Explicitly expalined Tobi's motives-to-be should make all doubters and haters think, if they can of course.

j0x: I don't disagree. I know people like different things, but seriously... Twilight? Silly story about girl having a periot :P I'm not hater BTW

Right now I really enjoy manga, awesome chapter

itachi-san314 2012-09-19 04:17
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAX_COLA_POWER! (Post 4358995)
If Obito's only reason really turns out to be because Rin died, I wonder how people will defend this when in the back of their head they know, it's not a very good reason?
ever heard of helen of troy? the face that launched 1,000 ships? or is homer also a bad writer? :rolleyes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafriel (Post 4358999)
And so the story goes...I'm as confused as Madara when it comes to Obito not turning into steak sauce after being crushed by a huge rock.
kamui

Quote:
Have the origins of the gedo mazo been stated anywhere?
not yet, but soon

Quote:
Originally Posted by milan kyuubi (Post 4359030)
Madara giving Nagato his eyes. And them somehow expecting Nagato to revive him later on. When Nagato knew nothing of this. This is a plot hole. Madara didn't know Obito will show up in his hideout when he gave the eyes to Nagato.
'somehow' meaning waiting for an opportunity to manipulate someone else into making sure it happened? which is exactly what he did. i see no plot hole here. he didn't know obito specifically would show up, but he knew he could live long enough to find someone to do it for him. or maybe he just gave his rinnegan away hoping something like this would happen and it did. thats not a plot hole whether or not he can live eternally on hashirama's chakra

milan kyuubi 2012-09-19 04:48
Quote:
Originally Posted by itachi-san314 (Post 4359131)
'somehow' meaning waiting for an opportunity to manipulate someone else into making sure it happened? which is exactly what he did. i see no plot hole here. he didn't know obito specifically would show up, but he knew he could live long enough to find someone to do it for him. or maybe he just gave his rinnegan away hoping something like this would happen and it did. thats not a plot hole whether or not he can live eternally on hashirama's chakra
But what in the meantime? Between giving his eyes to Nagato and waiting for someone to manipulate? Nagato could have easily been killed or starved to death. Madara's plan (with the info we know now, it could change in the future) was to give his eyes to Nagato. And then expected that Nagato will resurrect him. There are many flaws in this plan. And for someone who was praised as one of the best ninja ever. Madara sure let a lot of things things to a chance. He didn't know if Nagato will survive in a war torn land. He didn't know if he will unlock rinnegan. He didn't know what kind of a person he will turn out to be. He didn't know if Nagato will resurrect him when he gave his eyes to Nagato. This is the same as it's with Minato. Madara gave his eyes and knew it will go how he wanted just because. The same way Minato knew Naruto will be the savior, just because.

Casshern 2012-09-19 05:31
Maybe Madara programmed the rinnegan to automatically rez him once Nagato had become powerful enough. If Itachi can put Shisui's eye into a crow, then stuff the crow into Naruto and program it to cast kotoamatsukami when Naruto's eyes make contact with Itachi's MS, then Madara can probably do a bit more.

Still, the plot is just unnecessarily convoluted. Madara already had Hashirama's dna in him. He should have been able to live an unnaturally long life without sucking chakra off the mazou. Even a normal person can live up to 100.

Instead of giving his rinnegan away, he could've used rinne tensei to bring back Izuna. Even better, he could've used edo tensei to rez him. An immortal indestructible Izuna would've been perfect to carry out his plan; the only other character who was on par with Madara, other than Hashirama. Madara and Izuna together would've been unstoppable.

janipani 2012-09-19 06:55
I wish Kishi would have designed Rin differently.. she could at least look something else than simple version of Sakura even though she is "sakura" of that team.

ronin myael 2012-09-19 07:00
hmmm... not a bad chapter except for the fact that obito really was/is pathetic. :heh:

this chapter pretty much confirms the earlier theories about madara dying much much later and that he was somehow kept alive by the zetsu cells he got from hashirama. not much was revealed in this chapter so i'm holding out until kishi gives us the full story.

james0246 2012-09-19 07:35
What a strange combination of boring and awesome...truthfully, it is a combination I've come to expect from Kishimoto...

Face718 2012-09-19 08:08
Maybe Rin was in ANBU with Kakashi and ended up dying.

haegar 2012-09-19 08:28
While Madara looks kinda cool chapter didnt impress me much. I feel the attempt at humor was as displaced in this chapter here as it was carried out badly with Obito resembling Naruto's "eh WTF" face - apart from that how this all is supposed to fit together still confuses me though I'll be willing to give that another 2 chaps or so. I do hope though this doesn't take too long.
Oh and Obito just so happens to fall into Madara's secret tunnels when the rocks fell ?!?! - oh b**** please, u kiddin? I'd have much prefered Madara was scouting Obito from early on as he suspected the kid had a special sharingan. Not so sure I like this "sudden coincidence karma of two uchiha fucked over by fate meeting in some underground rathole to plot revenge on the world" angle.... (though maybe that is just Madara giving things a spin to win over Obito, we shall see...)

Destined_Fate 2012-09-19 08:34
My issue is that Rin never returned Obito's love since she loved Kakashi. So Obito going all crazy over one sided love makes him look kinda creepy.

Dengar 2012-09-19 09:00
Really? Because it seems to me that Obito isn't crazy yet, even though the love triangle has been known to him for a while.

j0x 2012-09-19 09:06
Madara is turning to be a better hero than Naruto... Madara says --- look at reality, the world won't go the way you want it to, in this world there is light, there are shadows... as long as the concept of "winner" exist there will continue to be a "loser"... the selfish desire of wanting to preserve peace causes wars... hatred is born out of desire to protect loved ones... because you were hurt, other were saved --- i wonder what counter reason will Naruto throw at that lol he cant be a politician type of Hokage and say i will give everybody sufficient resources (food/shelter/etc) to eradicate criminal thinking :heh:

james0246 2012-09-19 09:20
Quote:
i wonder what counter reason will Naruto throw at that lol he cant be a politician type of Hokage and say i will give everybody sufficient resources (food/shelter/etc) to eradicate criminal thinking
Truthfully, you don't need real answers as so long as you can inspire hope and get the individuals to try and change themselves (this is what Naruto has always done). You don't need to get people to work together so much as you need to get people to want to try and work together.

Obito's problem isn't that Madara's more persuasive or that his arguments are better. No, Obito's problem is that he lost hope (undoubtedly spurred by the death of Rin).

itachi-san314 2012-09-19 09:34
Quote:
Originally Posted by milan kyuubi (Post 4359154)
But what in the meantime? Between giving his eyes to Nagato and waiting for someone to manipulate? Nagato could have easily been killed or starved to death.
yea, it does seem to hinge on hope, but maybe that's all madara had. or there could be more to the story that we have yet to see. the sharingan and rinnegan seem to activate when their hosts are in danger though, (as seen with sasuke and nagato and now obito) so perhaps madara was counting on the rinnegan intself to preserve nagato until he needed him

Quote:
Originally Posted by haegar (Post 4359347)
I feel the attempt at humor was as displaced in this chapter here as it was carried out badly with Obito resembling Naruto's "eh WTF" face
i actually really liked that part. it shows that kishi didnt forget what happened in KG and is actually going to show us a true to form transformation of obito's personality change

Quote:
Oh and Obito just so happens to fall into Madara's secret tunnels when the rocks fell ?!?! - oh b**** please, u kiddin?
yea, this i did not like either. i always assumed that madara knew obito would be special. it makes a lot more sense than obito falling into his lap by chance... but perhaps he is lying as you said. i hope he is

Quote:
Originally Posted by Destined_Fate (Post 4359352)
My issue is that Rin never returned Obito's love since she loved Kakashi. So Obito going all crazy over one sided love makes him look kinda creepy.
not really an issue. 1-sided love exists a lot in this world. also if you read the dialogue this chapter obito isn't creepy about rin. he still thinks about wanting to team up with kakashi and rin and to protect them. i think you are putting your own spin on things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by j0x (Post 4359386)
i wonder what counter reason will Naruto throw at that lol he cant be a politician type of Hokage and say i will give everybody sufficient resources (food/shelter/etc) to eradicate criminal thinking :heh:
the counter to the moons eye plan has always been free will. is the absence of hate good if it also means the absence of love and choice? not really. thats more like 1984 with big brother in control of every aspect of our lives in order to "keep peace"

j0x 2012-09-19 09:38
Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 (Post 4359406)
Truthfully, you don't need real answers as so long as you can inspire hope and get the individuals to try and change themselves (this is what Naruto has always done). You don't need to get people to work together so much as you need to get people to want to try and work together.
inspire hope/good... i dont want to make this a religion topic but that is also what the savior from holy books are doing too... and through many years those inspirational ideas became twisted by greed and also became an excuse for people to start another wars

Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 (Post 4359406)
Obito's problem isn't that Madara's more persuasive or that his arguments are better. No, Obito's problem is that he lost hope (undoubtedly spurred by the death of Rin).
i agree with that Obito said it himself he is NoOne or nobody anymore


Quote:
Originally Posted by itachi-san314 (Post 4359418)
the counter to the moons eye plan has always been free will. is the absence of hate good if it also means the absence of love and choice? not really. thats more like 1984 with big brother in control of every aspect of our lives in order to "keep peace"

free-will old concept but ye thats more of a possible counter to the moon eye plan that oppress free will

james0246 2012-09-19 09:38
Quote:
the counter to the moons eye plan has always been free will. is the absence of hate good if it also means the absence of love and choice? not really. thats more like 1984 with big brother in control of every aspect of our lives in order to "keep peace"
Free will isn't really a counter-argument to the moon's eye plan. In fact, arguably free will is the entire reason the moon's eye plan was created in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by j0x (Post 4359424)
inspire hope/good... i dont want to make this a religion topic but that is also what the savior from holy books are doing too... and through many years those inspirational ideas became twisted by greed and also became an excuse for people to start another wars
There's no need to bring religion into the discussion. Naruto isn't a messiah (even if he is a "chosen one"), he isn't even a "man with a plan". Naruto's ability seems to only inspire people to better themselves, consequently he is offering no false hope, or even faith, just a consummate belief that a better self can be strong enough to create a better tomorrow. That could undoubtedly fail, but if he can inspire enough then future generations will continue along these ideals and help to keep the progress going forward even if wars still exist and people still hurt one another (and honestly, that's all any leader can hope for).

Dengar 2012-09-19 09:44
Well, this story has become about Free Will vs Ignorant Bliss since the war officially started. The side that wins will eventually end up being right, as usual.

Eragon 2012-09-19 10:01
^ Isn't the winner already decided though?

Ulquiorra 2012-09-19 10:03
Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 (Post 4359428)
There's no need to bring religion into the discussion. Naruto isn't a messiah (even if he is a "chosen one"), he isn't even a "man with a plan". Naruto's ability seems to only inspire people to better themselves, consequently he is offering no false hope, or even faith, just a consummate belief that a better self can be strong enough to create a better tomorrow. That could undoubtedly fail, but if he can inspire enough then future generations will continue along these ideals and help to keep the progress going forward even if wars still exist and people still hurt one another (and honestly, that's all any leader can hope for).
So Naruto is less Jesus and more Tim Tebow.

willx 2012-09-19 10:11
I can't help but sympathize with Obito.. The new few chapters will probably be a giant mindf*ck for him and we'll watch his relentless spirit get utterly crushed and jaded..

And it's shocking how much more powerful than Kakkashi he becomes.. Damn you Uchiha clan and your h4x

b1gdawg 2012-09-19 10:20
I don't really like how Obito got to where he is. Madara's secret lair just happened to be under that battle ground? There's gotta be more to it, Madara must have saved him, but how? He's old and can't detach from that thing. His powers must be low.

I also want to know where they are. Madara didn't really explain that. This chapter 90% revealed that Madara gave Nagato the rinnegan not Tobi, but why would Tobi say he gave Nagato the rinnegan? There was no reason for him to lie to Konan since he was about to kill her anyway. There must be part of Madara inside Obito.

Now i want to know where he got his left sharingan and why not the right one too. Why would he only take 1 eye and not both.

Jpmartinez 2012-09-19 11:16
Quote:
Originally Posted by milan kyuubi (Post 4359154)
But what in the meantime? Between giving his eyes to Nagato and waiting for someone to manipulate? Nagato could have easily been killed or starved to death. Madara's plan (with the info we know now, it could change in the future) was to give his eyes to Nagato. And then expected that Nagato will resurrect him. There are many flaws in this plan. And for someone who was praised as one of the best ninja ever. Madara sure let a lot of things things to a chance. He didn't know if Nagato will survive in a war torn land. He didn't know if he will unlock rinnegan. He didn't know what kind of a person he will turn out to be. He didn't know if Nagato will resurrect him when he gave his eyes to Nagato. This is the same as it's with Minato. Madara gave his eyes and knew it will go how he wanted just because. The same way Minato knew Naruto will be the savior, just because.
Well we don't know what kind of complicated plan madara could have created in all the years being alive. He probably gave the eyes to nagato then use the sharigan on some couple leaf ninjas to kill his parents. Then he had zetsu watch over him and make sure he didn't die and from there on looked for another uchiha (Obito) and brainwash him to carry the rest of the plan. So as you see there isn't a plot hole here the possibilities are infinite. Also think about it, its too much of a coincidence that Obito fell right under madaras secret cave. Seen madara beat five kages while he repeated it was futile gives me the impression he knows better than to play the dice. He wouldn't risk unless he knows the outcome.

SuperRareTreeCat 2012-09-19 11:20
Did anyone else notice on Page 15 the Zetsu figure hanging from the Mazo? no left arm but had a right arm with the spiral face which also looks to be adult sized, pretty good foreshadowing there. Awesome chapter yet again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by milan kyuubi (Post 4359030)
Madara giving Nagato his eyes. And them somehow expecting Nagato to revive him later on. When Nagato knew nothing of this. This is a plot hole. Madara didn't know Obito will show up in his hideout when he gave the eyes to Nagato.
Madara said he had given his eyes away, doesn't confirm he gave them away to Nagato. Although he probably did seeing as where this is headed but still not confirmed as to who.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haegar (Post 4359347)
While Madara looks kinda cool chapter didnt impress me much. I feel the attempt at humor was as displaced in this chapter here as it was carried out badly with Obito resembling Naruto's "eh WTF" face - apart from that how this all is supposed to fit together still confuses me though I'll be willing to give that another 2 chaps or so. I do hope though this doesn't take too long.
Oh and Obito just so happens to fall into Madara's secret tunnels when the rocks fell ?!?! - oh b**** please, u kiddin? I'd have much prefered Madara was scouting Obito from early on as he suspected the kid had a special sharingan. Not so sure I like this "sudden coincidence karma of two uchiha fucked over by fate meeting in some underground rathole to plot revenge on the world" angle.... (though maybe that is just Madara giving things a spin to win over Obito, we shall see...)
We get to see Obito's clumsy comedic side, that was funny. Shows he's still himself at that point. And how Madara said that he was "Between this and the other world" in an underground passage, could be the other dimension that Obito is now stuck in also. Only really possibility i see to this is that Obito having activated his sharingan somehow was able to use the space time to the other dimension, which would explain why the rock was there considering he was probably touching it. Just a thought, although I don't thing at all that there would be an underground passage exactly where he was crushed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by b1gdawg (Post 4359484)
I don't really like how Obito got to where he is. Madara's secret lair just happened to be under that battle ground? There's gotta be more to it, Madara must have saved him, but how? He's old and can't detach from that thing. His powers must be low.

I also want to know where they are. Madara didn't really explain that. This chapter 90% revealed that Madara gave Nagato the rinnegan not Tobi, but why would Tobi say he gave Nagato the rinnegan? There was no reason for him to lie to Konan since he was about to kill her anyway. There must be part of Madara inside Obito.

Now i want to know where he got his left sharingan and why not the right one too. Why would he only take 1 eye and not both.
1. Read above for first part :). 2. Then Tobi(Obito) was using Madara as an alias and saying what he would say, and yeah I don't see a reason to lie either but don't think Madara is in there. 3. Page 17 Madara says he had an eye implanted afterwards but would like to have a few extras.


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