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-   -   Fate/Zero - Speculation & Theories (for F/SN Anime-only Viewers) (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=107418)

relentlessflame 2011-10-07 20:44

Fate/Zero - Speculation & Theories (for F/SN Anime-only Viewers)
 
This thread is aimed at first time viewers of the Fate/Zero anime who are also familiar with the Fate/Stay Night anime. Its purpose is to allow spoiler free speculation and theories between the "prequel" and its "sequel" to be aired. Having them here will help focus the discussion instead of spreading off-topic and spoilery speculation into the various Fate/Zero episode discussion threads. If you are knowledgeable of the Fate/Zero novel and wish to speculate or discuss theories, then please do not post in this thread (use the Fate/Zero (Light Novel) thread) and do not give away any spoilers in this thread!

Unacceptable post topics:
  • Any form of spoilers from the Fate/Zero novels.
  • Any form of spoilers from the various fighting games.
  • Any form of spoilers from the Fate/Stay Night and Fate/Hollow Ataraxia visual novels.

Kanon 2011-12-13 08:16

As a matter of fact, it kind of peeves me that a brilliant and heartfelt speech by Alexander the Great had less of an effect on her than the hypocritical words of a 16 years old boy who kept telling her her place was in the kitchen.

MeoTwister5 2011-12-13 08:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanon (Post 3900570)
As a matter of fact, it kind of peeves me that a brilliant and heartfelt speech by Alexander the Great had less of an effect on her than the hypocritical words of a 16 years old boy who kept telling her her place was in the kitchen.

We all know it's because of

Spoiler for F/SN spoilers:


Ironic. A made woman in the world of men succumbs to who was the pansiest man in story (for the first half anyway).

Nightengale 2011-12-13 08:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanon (Post 3900570)
As a matter of fact, it kind of peeves me that a brilliant and heartfelt speech by Alexander the Great had less of an effect on her than the hypocritical words of a 16 years old boy who kept telling her her place was in the kitchen.

The difference was empathy. Saber was obviously envious of Alexander's bonds, but that was it. She could never relate to his way of life and kingship.

Or at the very least, his definition of 'living for one's own self', which was very self-serving and greedy from an outsider's perspective.

Shirou... was different. But that was a difference built upon so many different factors, so it's almost unfair to really compare them. Call him hypocritical, but that's what an irrational love-on-first-sight does to a boy who has no sense of self.

And the fact that well... obviously Nasu didn't think this far ahead when he was writing F/SN.

It's easy to repack an existing moral speech and portray it better the 2nd time round. :p


Quote:

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 (Post 3900578)
A made woman in the world of men succumbs to who was the pansiest man in story (for the first half anyway).

Pansiest, but his ideals was the most resolute in it as well. ( compared to other stories where he was physically stronger, but more idealistically flexible. )

And what appeals to Saber? Ideals.

Last Sinner 2011-12-13 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness (Post 3901101)
Though I am annoyed that Gilgamesh stayed quiet most of the time. I mean this guy ruled for what? 126 years? That's a hell lot longer than either Saber or Rider so they shouldn't even be bickering LOL

Implies that Gilgamesh needed to waste his time comparing himself to the others. Already well established that Gilgamesh thinks most people don't deserve to speak to him, be in his presence, etc. Gilgamesh spoke in only two parts in that episode, really - first to show Rider what good booze really was, then at the end to tell Saber to chin up. I think Archer values Rider as a king but not as an opponent, whereas while he thinks Saber was not fit to be king, he does think Saber is a worthy opponent in the Grail War.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing (Post 3901109)
Although Saber's ideals are noble to behold, you kind of have to wonder what kind of people would respect a leader that has no respect for themselves and their abilities of a leader.

Being a good person is very different from being a good leader.

Well, indeed. There is a need to be somewhere in the middle when you lead. You have to be ruthless, intimidating and obliterate the opposition when needed. Leading is not something that can be approached with purity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paranoid Android (Post 3900761)
The only problem Alexander has for Saber is pride. She has no pride in her history of leading her country. She regrets her actions and wishes a qualified king to take her place. Where both Gilgamesh and Alexander think highly of themselves as accomplished Kings.

Nobody want's a king who always thinks of himself as a failure.

Saber does have a lot of pride, but not as a king. Saber has a damn lot of pride as a knight. Saber takes a lot of fulfillment in protecting Irisviel and in beating her opponents. Saber's biggest outburst thus far was to Kiritsugu for not letting her go after Caster because it hurt her pride as a knight. A big part of Saber's fate was that no one wanted to be king at that time. At least Saber had the guts to take up the burden when no one else was willing to.

Spoiler for FSN Fate route content:


Saber made mistakes as Arturia, but from the aftermath, Saber felt regret while Alexander didn't. Now while Rider gets points for still having pride in his life and what he accomplished, his lack of regret implies he thinks there is nothing he felt he could have done better - that he felt too much pride. And that is one of Rider's biggest weaknesses. Saber's regret shows that she did feel that maybe things could have been done better, which is not a bad thing. What is wrong is that Saber then felt she had accomplished nothing and wished for time to be reset because she felt no pride as a king. Saber's pride was always as a knight and that was how she lived and ruled. She was never able to differentiate between the two roles, which is why Rider can't respect Saber as a king. Neither does Archer for that matter, but he has the brains to realise that Saber's shortcomings as a king doesn't discredit her as an opponent.

Nightengale 2011-12-13 21:46

A big part of Saber's issues is that her perception of what a King should be... was essentially built upon her idealisation of it... back when she was like 14.

And from that point onwards, Saber essentially never looked back and never allowed her ideal to waver for most parts of her life.

For better and worse, she decided, with the whim and naivety of a little girl born and raised to be a knight... what a King should be.

Reckoner 2011-12-14 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanon (Post 3900570)
As a matter of fact, it kind of peeves me that a brilliant and heartfelt speech by Alexander the Great had less of an effect on her than the hypocritical words of a 16 years old boy who kept telling her her place was in the kitchen.

I don't know if you played the VN, but perhaps the original anime did a bad job at conveying it.

Alexander wouldn't be able to convince Saber because he isn't someone who is like Saber in the first place. He stands from a different viewpoint altogether.

Shirou's actions throughout F/S N (Fate route) were of the same vein of martyrdom as Sabers. He cared so little about his own personal safety and so much about saving others that he was basically sick in the head. He didn't expect anything from anyone else, he merely thought the ideal was beautiful. Much like how Saber wasn't looking for the gratitude of her people necessarily, but she wanted to be the embodiment of her ideal as King, which she felt she didn't succeed as her country was left in ruins in the end.

So when someone like Shirou who is a mirror image of her lifestyle is in front of her in the next war and she sees how Shirou lives his life, and it is Shirou himself who tells Saber about how her ideal is beautiful and that she shouldn't regret her actions, it just carries a lot more weight. Rider's words have little impact in comparison because he was never someone who lived the life of a martyr, he was someone who just took whatever he wanted and was basically a tyrant.

Kanon 2011-12-14 17:44

Now that you mention it, I've never played the Fate route properly: I fast-forwarded through it since I had already seen the anime before the patch came out. I should correct that...someday... UBW Shirou and HF Shirou are still fresh in my mind, but the only thing I remember from Fate Shirou (basically anime Shirou for me) is that he was a huge misogynist :heh: (the worst type, too)

Anyway, what bothers me the most isn't so much that Shirou succeeded where Alexander failed, but that Alex's words have apparently had no lasting impact on Saber despite the fact she was visibly shaken by them (CRUSHED, even). That should have been enough to weaken her resolve at least a little bit. However, come F/SN, she is still exactly the same and clings as desperately to her ideals and her wish as in F/Z. That strikes me as a little inconsistent. F/Z is still far from over though, so maybe something will happen that will make her regain confidence.

Nightengale 2011-12-14 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanon (Post 3902783)
Now that you mention it, I've never played the Fate route properly: I fast-forwarded through it since I had already seen the anime before the patch came out. I should correct that...someday... UBW Shirou and HF Shirou are still fresh in my mind, but the only thing I remember from Fate Shirou (basically anime Shirou for me) is that he was a huge misogynist :heh: (the worst type, too)

That's what a screw loose in their psyche as well as ( my opinion, mind you. ) a love-on-first-sight kind of thing does to a guy.

Fate route can be very polarising, because Shirou wasn't exactly impressive, per say. He's thoroughly defined by his unrelenting belief and pursuit of an ideal despite being humanely weak. ( compared to the monsters he face ) It's really a love-or-hate thing with him.

Thess 2011-12-14 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanon (Post 3902783)
Anyway, what bothers me the most isn't so much that Shirou succeeded where Alexander failed, but that Alex's words have apparently had no lasting impact on Saber despite the fact she was visibly shaken by them (CRUSHED, even). That should have been enough to weaken her resolve at least a little bit. However, come F/SN, she is still exactly the same and clings as desperately to her ideals and her wish as in F/Z. That strikes me as a little inconsistent. F/Z is still far from over though, so maybe something will happen that will make her regain confidence.

Her initial relationship with Shirou and Illya make little sense either, considering Iri and Kiritsugu.

Reckoner 2011-12-15 04:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanon (Post 3902783)
Anyway, what bothers me the most isn't so much that Shirou succeeded where Alexander failed, but that Alex's words have apparently had no lasting impact on Saber despite the fact she was visibly shaken by them (CRUSHED, even). That should have been enough to weaken her resolve at least a little bit. However, come F/SN, she is still exactly the same and clings as desperately to her ideals and her wish as in F/Z. That strikes me as a little inconsistent. F/Z is still far from over though, so maybe something will happen that will make her regain confidence.

I guess I can sort of see what you're saying, but there were some differences between Saber in this and Saber in the F/S N. That main difference, at least to me, was how much more upfront Saber was about her ideal and what not. In F/S N Shirou had to pry it out gradually while also getting glimpses into her dream.

It could be that because of what she experienced in Zero that she is more hesitant to unveil her inner thoughts because of how her philosophy of life was pretty much ridiculed here. She enclosed all her thoughts and feelings so no one could disrupt her path.

But I guess in the end you're right, at the moment. Saber is very shaken up over Rider's speech... Perhaps there will be something later on in Zero that will explain it.


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