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-   -   Feedback: The Negative Reputation System (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=108942)

risingstar3110 2011-12-13 04:55

The Negative Reputation System
 
Can we somehow get rid of this, or does not allow the attached message along with neg rep? Hasn't seen any constructive criticism, and mostly has been anonymous personal insult or rude comments (in oppose to the PM or wall system where you know who are they from) :uhoh:

felix 2011-12-13 06:15

So, are you implying positive rep is constructive? :)

Also since the entire system is annonymous it's kind of hard to argue "every negative rep is undeserved/unconstructive" when you only see yours.

Konakaga 2011-12-13 07:21

If they seem overly insulting or rude you should consider reporting them, as the mods can see whom places what rep :p.

risingstar3110 2011-12-13 07:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by felix (Post 3900439)
So, are you implying positive rep is constructive? :)

Also since the entire system is annonymous it's kind of hard to argue "every negative rep is undeserved/unconstructive" when you only see yours.

I don't try to prove that all are undeserved/unconstructive, i just want to state that most are (do i need statistically proven here?). And do you suggest that, many will provide constructive comment through the anonymous negative reputation system rather than the wall of PM?

And positive rep is more or less constructive, or at least encouraging constructive behaviors
Quote:

Originally Posted by Konakaga (Post 3900494)
If they seem overly insulting or rude you should consider reporting them, as the mods can see whom places what rep :p.

Can we do that? Need some mods confirm on this. :p

What is the penalty btw? Is it the same with rude posts?

Skyfall 2011-12-13 09:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by risingstar3110 (Post 3900524)
Can we do that? Need some mods confirm on this. :p

What is the penalty btw? Is it the same with rude posts?

Yes you can, and yes it is. As we have noted in the Forum Rules regarding reputation, the general rules of our forum apply to the reputation system as well, and we ask that people report any such violations. They will receive the same treatment as any other flaming/insulting message/post, provided the comment is indeed of such nature, and the comment in question will be removed from your profile so you are no longer exposed to it.

Note that we will not, however, remove negative reputations themselves, so please don't petition us to remove ones you think as "unjustified". The system is meant to be harmless fluff, even if people sometimes tend to take it too seriously, so the AS staff won't ever act as judges to determine the "validity" of reputations. Ensuring that the system is used with the same basic civility that we demand of the rest of the forum is very much within our interest though, so if you feel that a comment is stepping outside the line, don't feel shy about reporting it.

felix 2011-12-13 09:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by risingstar3110 (Post 3900524)
I don't try to prove that all are undeserved/unconstructive, i just want to state that most are (do i need statistically proven here?).

If you want to claim most/all are then yes providing some proof would be in order. Just like with anything else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by risingstar3110 (Post 3900524)
And do you suggest that, many will provide constructive comment through the anonymous negative reputation system rather than the wall of PM?

And positive rep is more or less constructive, or at least encouraging constructive behaviors

Only when they are public, and only when multiple people rep the same post. Otherwise it's just random, or like Skyfall put it, just fluff.

Reputation is pretty stupid, you shouldn't take it so seriously.

And what "encouraging constructive behaviors"? The only thing it encourages is heavy retaliation against things (ie. hating/defending series to the death) and fanboy antics. Since extreme things like that are the only things as I recall you're likely to get rep for.

risingstar3110 2011-12-13 10:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyfall (Post 3900612)
Yes you can, and yes it is. As we have noted in the Forum Rules regarding reputation, the general rules of our forum apply to the reputation system as well, and we ask that people report any such violations. They will receive the same treatment as any other flaming/insulting message/post, provided the comment is indeed of such nature, and the comment in question will be removed from your profile so you are no longer exposed to it.

Note that we will not, however, remove negative reputations themselves, so please don't petition us to remove ones you think as "unjustified". The system is meant to be harmless fluff, even if people sometimes tend to take it too seriously, so the AS staff won't ever act as judges to determine the "validity" of reputations. Ensuring that the system is used with the same basic civility that we demand of the rest of the forum is very much within our interest though, so if you feel that a comment is stepping outside the line, don't feel shy about reporting it.

Cool then.

Yeah the negative points things are not in my concern, the personal offense coming alone often is

Quote:

Originally Posted by felix (Post 3900643)
If you want to claim most/all are then yes providing some proof would be in order. Just like with anything else.

Only when they are public, and only when multiple people rep the same post. Otherwise it's just random, or like Skyfall put it, just fluff.

Reputation is pretty stupid, you shouldn't take it so seriously.

And what "encouraging constructive behaviors"? The only thing it encourages is heavy retaliation against things (ie. hating/defending series to the death) and fanboy antics. Since extreme things like that are the only things as I recall you're likely to get rep for.

What do you expect? Putting up surveys on forums members to see how many person think neg rep's comments are abused? Or ask mods to investigate a group of samples and find out how many was offensive?

If you expect claims on forum have to be backed up by statistics every time, i think you took the net too serious. As while i prefer the forum environment to be more pleasant, i'm not gonna goes that far. I only can claim most of the comments along negative rep were rude and would not be tolerated if it was following rules (as Skyfall mentioned). The argument is backed up by mere common senses and the few examples that i can remember (which i prefer not to state publicly).

On the positive reputation. Yes, i believe the positive reputations do encourage people to make better arguments, or more ready to provide helps to fellow members (answer questions, identify images, make free avatars...etc...). The whole fanboy antics you mentioned are always been set off by negative reps, making those with most reps in the forum often to be in Graphic or Art sections (or those have been with AS since the start). But once again, i concern more on the anonymous nature of the reputation system, rather than the points themselves

felix 2011-12-13 14:51

There's no need for that. If there is a certain range of comments it's trivial to just do a database search for all entries matching certain keywords and produce a count. If your claim was on a positive note, there would be no problem but since you ask everyone to be punished and the system to be burned then obviously a little more then your word and potentially highly biased and subjective opinion on it is in order. This claim is not new at all, we've all heard it in this section a few dozen times already, and typically it doesn't come out as undeserved. The negative reputation system is not designed to be constructive mind you (not that it can't be) it's designed to counter balance the positive rep system.

It's an annonymous system, so could you just give examples of this common type of unconstructive negative comments you're recieving? :)

wingdarkness 2011-12-13 15:28

The only thing I would change is that peoples' username be revealed, but not everyone is like me as I don't bad rep people just because they did it to me and I always put my username if I bad rep since I have no shame^^...Other than that, I see no reason to change a system that has been in-place for so long...And that's coming from someone who'd prolly have 14, 15 rep-dots if it wasn't for bad rep...

Flower 2011-12-13 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by wingdarkness (Post 3900999)
The only thing I would change is that peoples' username be revealed, but not everyone is like me as I don't bad rep people just because they did it to me and I always put my username if I bad rep since I have no shame^^...Other than that, I see no reason to change a system that has been in-place for so long...And that's coming from someone who'd prolly have 14, 15 rep-dots if it wasn't for bad rep...

I have seen this done on other forums that also use vBulliten, but maybe the decision to omit the name was purposeful?

I guess it could be argued that not showing the name automatically could possibly give ... umm ... "encouragement" to "trolling", even if the mods can see the info and the users can't.

But imo the rep system is as others have said - just "fluff" ultimately, but designed to encourage better discussions as such.

felix 2011-12-13 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by wingdarkness (Post 3900999)
The only thing I would change is that peoples' username be revealed, but not everyone is like me as I don't bad rep people just because they did it to me and I always put my username if I bad rep since I have no shame^^...Other than that, I see no reason to change a system that has been in-place for so long...And that's coming from someone who'd prolly have 14, 15 rep-dots if it wasn't for bad rep...

Concerning singning, you like everyone else fail at realising that even though it has --Name or ~Name or -Name, (Name) etc it's not necesarly Name who sent it. :heh: You'd be surprised how abusive and effective signing rep can be against stupid people who've sold their dignity, sanity and better judgement for little green dots. (and you don't even have to impersonate anyone to do it)

And also negative rep account for little to nothing. For it to be like you say it would mean you get 90% negative rep and 10% positive.

wingdarkness 2011-12-13 16:44

^That's why I'm saying it should be automatic...

Quote:

Originally Posted by felix
For it to be like you say it would mean you get 90% negative rep and 10% positive.

Don't doubt my awesomeness, I ain't never made a sig for nobody and I've been negged repped atleast 100-200 times...You do read my g-forum posts?^^

It's funny the posts I get negged on I equally get praised on...So it's crazy how my rep-life has advanced...

risingstar3110 2011-12-13 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by felix (Post 3901065)
Concerning singning, you like everyone else fail at realising that even though it has --Name or ~Name or -Name, (Name) etc it's not necesarly Name who sent it. :heh: You'd be surprised how abusive and effective signing rep can be against stupid people who've sold their dignity, sanity and better judgement for little green dots. (and you don't even have to impersonate anyone to do it)

And also negative rep account for little to nothing. For it to be like you say it would mean you get 90% negative rep and 10% positive.

I really don't know what kind of "idiotic comments" (as you described) anyone can put up to get positive reps, while avoid being deleted by mods. I means even shipping was restricted in this forum, isn't it.

Impersonate? Hmm, actually you can lurk into a mist of arguments, throwing negative reps to one side, and sign your rude comment under the name of the other side (e.g. ~wingdarkness)....... And then watch the chaos erupt....

Marcus H. 2011-12-13 22:42

The current problem with dealing the Reputation System is that each move will have its own problems as consequences.

On privacy: Yes, there will be people who will use the Reputation System to bring chaos by impersonating other users, but taking away the aspect of anonymity will also make the system a more serious thing than liking and disliking posts. One user might start to target another for a simple smite, for example.

On taking away the concept altogether: How will newer users be able to determine the credibility of a more experienced poster? Reputation has always been a quantifiable basis for a user's credibility, and honestly, I'd take rep into consideration if I just got here in the first place. On the other hand, reputation (especially negatives) can be used as a "don't bring your opinion here" marker by people who just don't like how a person gives his/her opinion on things.

I don't hate the "don't bring your opinion here" of the system since I know that offending people is normal when you don't share their opinions. However, it's disappointing that instead of telling their reaction to your post to you directly, they just resort to negative reputations.

Hiroi Sekai 2011-12-14 02:01

I found that if you don't act like an ass towards people here, they won't neg-rep you. At least, that's how it's been in my case, aside from a couple of trolls here and there, but what can you do?

Negative rep (if used properly), can actually be used to tell somebody that what they're doing is unappreciated and needs to stop. It's much better than starting fights in the threads themselves, which becomes more work for the admins and mods.

Marcus H. 2011-12-14 03:32

Sometimes, negatives are often just fanboy impulse, face it.
But I admit, there are times that I can't help but smite a person for continuously criticizing an anime series on its own thread. It feels like someone entering a castle only to throw shit on its tapestries.

Kafriel 2011-12-14 04:33

Quote:

Reputation has always been a quantifiable basis for a user's credibility, and honestly, I'd take rep into consideration if I just got here in the first place. On the other hand, reputation (especially negatives) can be used as a "don't bring your opinion here" marker by people who just don't like how a person gives his/her opinion on things.
How many users have you seen with more than 1 red rep bar? Now compare that to the number of users with over 4 green ones, in my few years here I've never seen anyone getting the cold shoulder due to rep. On the other hand, most people are ready to +rep for jokes, punchlines or holding similar views over a matter - would you call these justified?

Anyways, if you're concerned about it too much, just disable it.

totoum 2011-12-14 04:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus H. (Post 3901490)
On taking away the concept altogether: How will newer users be able to determine the credibility of a more experienced poster?

While I definatly "play the game" when it comes to reputation,that's all I consider it to be,a game.I definatly don't judge the credibility of a poster based on his or her reputation, and I definatly would advise newer posters not to either.

Quote:

How many users have you seen with more than 1 red rep bar?
None,but that's because it's literally impossible to get more than one red rep bar ;)

Marcus H. 2011-12-14 05:07

Quote:

How many users have you seen with more than 1 red rep bar? Now compare that to the number of users with over 4 green ones, in my few years here I've never seen anyone getting the cold shoulder due to rep. On the other hand, most people are ready to +rep for jokes, punchlines or holding similar views over a matter - would you call these justified?
None, the highest negative I've encountered has "- can only hope to improve" on it. But I know that those who have negatives and are notorious for troll-bait posts would opt to leave the forums before the second red bar comes up.

Quote:

While I definatly "play the game" when it comes to reputation,that's all I consider it to be,a game.I definatly don't judge the credibility of a poster based on his or her reputation, and I definatly would advise newer posters not to either.
It's not their fault to judge a person by his reputation; it's just like wanting to read a new novel and you come up with an author that you're already familiar with. You're most likely to pick up a Paulo Coelho book than a Stephanie Meyer book if you hate Twilight, for example.

felix 2011-12-14 05:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus H. (Post 3901490)
On taking away the concept altogether: How will newer users be able to determine the credibility of a more experienced poster? Reputation has always been a quantifiable basis for a user's credibility, and honestly, I'd take rep into consideration if I just got here in the first place. On the other hand, reputation (especially negatives) can be used as a "don't bring your opinion here" marker by people who just don't like how a person gives his/her opinion on things.

I'd feel sorry for the state of discussion if instead of their posts you need to look at a bunch of green dots to determine someone's credibility. Is the post standards that shallow?

Rep should be the last thing in the world you use to determine credibility. If anything, given what generally gets you large amounts of rep and reactions that generate rep, the higher the bar the more uninteresting your posts are, ie. you are either overly critical or just ranting, make extreme long winded posts, have very generic opinions on things, or just abuse a whole slew of cliches in making your points. Meaning you probably write what everyone wants to hear, or what everyone already thinks.

Now that I think about it I believe I skim more though posts of people with high rep moreso then people with low rep.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus H. (Post 3901490)
I don't hate the "don't bring your opinion here" of the system since I know that offending people is normal when you don't share their opinions. However, it's disappointing that instead of telling their reaction to your post to you directly, they just resort to negative reputations.

I personally hate it. "Oh we're the majority, so this belongs to us!" Blah! Revolting attitude. It's a forum, a topic doesn't belong to anyone, that's the point! If you're going to get offended then get offended, don't just throw some knee-jerk reaction to it. "Oh look someone's throwing mindless insults at the producers, writers, etc. Let's rant about their ranting to make it better!"

I agree with you that reputation can help in mitigate problems like that, but can't help but wonder just how many problems it generates by it being there in the first place. How many idiots are being fueled by it. Just as you can say they might go away peacefully if you give them negative rep, the same could be said that they come in a make chaos simply because they were rewarded for the same stupid behaviour in another thread.

While we may call it "fun" and "fluff" it's pretty obvious just from this thread alone that the level of addiction to it is pretty god damn high.


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