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-   -   Is Sasuke Justified in Seeking Revenge Againast Konoha? [Anime] (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=109164)

El_Negro 2011-12-14 19:40

Is Sasuke right in seeking revenge against Konoha or not?
  • Please don't use this thread to bash Sasuke (or other characters)!
  • Be nice to each other!
  • Have fun while posting and reading!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Milan Kyuubi
IMO the elders of Konoha (Koharu and Komura currently) deserve everything Sasuke plans to do to them. Danzou and Sarutobi already payed for their crimes. Even trough the elders were partly right in trying to stop the Uchiha's (their succeeding would have caused even more bloodshed then the death of the Uchiha clan), it was wrong of them to kill every member of the clan, especially the children (Sasuke's age or younger) at the time.

So while Sasuke has the right to seek revenge against the elders, he does not have the right to seek revenge against the Konoha as a whole. His line that they all deserve to die because they are laughing and are enjoying the peace Itachi created is absurd. \

Him wanting Kurenai's son dead (just because he was born in Konoha) is just a proof that Sasuke doesn't think rationally anymore and that he is blinded by hatred and his thirst for revenge.

What are your opinions?

Edit James0246: This is an [Anime] Thread. That means that manga spoilers are allowed, but they must be confined behind spoiler tags.

Silqthashakka 2011-12-23 23:15

No. He's gone waayyyyy overboard. He should be mad at his people.

Om Nerabdator 2011-12-23 23:20

his justified killing the 3 elders.

Killing everyone else just shows his a emo bastard!!

Akashin 2011-12-23 23:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Om Nerabdator (Post 3916132)
Killing everyone else just shows his a emo bastard!!

I don't really agree with this. Sasuke's decision to destroy Konoha entirely is born from the revelation that Itachi (and the Uchiha Clan as a whole) got shafted so the rest of the village could have peace (and while it isn't that simple, that isn't really incorrect, either). It's easy to see how Sasuke would hold a grudge against the village for benefiting from the suffering of his clan, especially when basically his entire life has been devoted to avenging that clan, albeit by hunting Itachi instead of Konoha.

Is Sasuke in the right? No, of course not. But from a purely personal and emotional perspective, I can understand his side.

Spectacular_Insanity 2011-12-24 00:21

No. He's lumped in his former friends and teammates (not to mention the countless innocent civilians) in with what were the evils of a select few. Sasuke has gone from what was once justifiable revenge into full-blown psychotic obsession.

Masuzu 2011-12-24 01:26

Psychosuke makes funny faces, so I'm a bit torn here. :heh:

Alchemist007 2011-12-24 02:12

Crap should've voted option 2. Well anyways, what he's doing is blaming the whole for the decisions of a few.

itachi-san314 2011-12-24 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alchemist007 (Post 3916364)
Crap should've voted option 2. Well anyways, what he's doing is blaming the whole for the decisions of a few.

I dont think he's blaming the villagers. it's more like what Akashin said. he doesn't like the fact that they are benefiting from what happened to itachi. and they definitely are since a konoha vs uchiha fight would have nearly leveled both sides. I think sasuke is totally justified in this thinking. i dont agree with it obviously, but its also hard to put myself in his shoes. naruto can nearly do it and he came up with the same justifiable conclusion

Casshern 2011-12-24 15:22

Sasuke's revenge isn't justifiable, but not irrational either. The elders decided to kill those who were weak and innocent amongst the Uchiha, not just the ones responsible for the planned rebellion. Since the elders killed all Uchiha indiscriminately, the only equivalent revenge is to kill all konoha equally indiscriminately. An eye for an eye, is what Sasuke wants. Just as the Elders took everything from him, so he wishes to destroy everything they wanted to protect.

It might not be fair on those innocent people simply living their lives, but that's the fate the elders carved out for them with their act of genocide. To think they would get away with such a crime is what is irrational. Sasuke is entirely the consequence to their deeds.

Sasuke is wrong, at least on a moral level, and he may have been driven mad, but the revenge itself isn't irrational.

itachi-san314 2011-12-24 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Casshern (Post 3917112)
Sasuke's revenge isn't justifiable, but not irrational either. The elders decided to kill those who were weak and innocent amongst the Uchiha, not just the ones responsible for the planned rebellion. Since the elders killed all Uchiha indiscriminately, the only equivalent revenge is to kill all konoha equally indiscriminately. An eye for an eye, is what Sasuke wants. Just as the Elders took everything from him, so he wishes to destroy everything they wanted to protect.

you say it isn't justifiable but then you go and totally justify it. it is an eye for an eye just as you said.

Quote:

It might not be fair on those innocent people simply living their lives, but that's the fate the elders carved out for them with their act of genocide. To think they would get away with such a crime is what is irrational. Sasuke is entirely the consequence to their deeds.
sasuke being left alive was also an act of the elders' kindness so it's a bit complicated. why would it be irrational to think they would get away with it? it's much less likely for the one kid they left alive to have grown up to be strong enough to take the elders on.

Akashin 2011-12-24 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by itachi-san314 (Post 3917209)
sasuke being left alive was also an act of the elders' kindness so it's a bit complicated. why would it be irrational to think they would get away with it?

I could be misremembering, but wasn't it Itachi that demanded that Sasuke be kept safe from the massacre? In that case, it isn't really their kindness that kept him alive.

Sasuke's revenge is unjustified simply on the grounds that there really isn't any (moral) reason to accept him taking out the entire village, but it's rational because it's easy to see why he'd want just that. That's the difference here; justifying Sasuke's mindset isn't the same as justifying his goal, which I think is what Casshern was getting at.

itachi-san314 2011-12-25 00:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akashin (Post 3917239)
I could be misremembering, but wasn't it Itachi that demanded that Sasuke be kept safe from the massacre? In that case, it isn't really their kindness that kept him alive.

my understanding is that itachi asked the 3rd and he reluctantly agreed. obviously danzo and most likely the other two elders would never have agreed to it so I chalk it up to the 3rd's kindness. I don't think itachi actually demanded it, but I could be wrong about that

Akashin 2011-12-25 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by itachi-san314 (Post 3917564)
my understanding is that itachi asked the 3rd and he reluctantly agreed. obviously danzo and most likely the other two elders would never have agreed to it so I chalk it up to the 3rd's kindness. I don't think itachi actually demanded it, but I could be wrong about that

Didn't Itachi force the three elders into compliance under threat of revealing the truth of the massacre? I'm pretty sure I recalled that correctly (whether that's canon or fanon is another thing entirely, though, and I don't really remember which it is).

xKeir 2011-12-26 11:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by itachi-san314 (Post 3917564)
my understanding is that itachi asked the 3rd and he reluctantly agreed. obviously danzo and most likely the other two elders would never have agreed to it so I chalk it up to the 3rd's kindness. I don't think itachi actually demanded it, but I could be wrong about that

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akashin (Post 3918646)
Didn't Itachi force the three elders into compliance under threat of revealing the truth of the massacre? I'm pretty sure I recalled that correctly (whether that's canon or fanon is another thing entirely, though, and I don't really remember which it is).

Before the massacre , Itachi asked the 3rd to keep it a Secret. The 3rd agreed.

The 'threaten' part comes in only years later after the Massacre and after Itachi had joined the Akatsuki. Itachi sensed that something was wrong and intentionally made a appearence in Konoha with Kisame on the cover that he was here to kidnap Naruto for the Akatsuki. He wanted the Elders to know that he was still around to keep an eye on Sasuke and warned them that should they try anything he'd expose the secret of the Uchiha Massacre. Remember the fight between Kisame/Itachi VS Kakashi/Gai/Kurenai/Asuma ? It may have appeared as though Itachi had came for Naruto at that time but it was later proven that that wasn't his true intentions for appearing in Konoha. Think about it rationally , Itachi could easily kidnap Naruto with his skills. He didn't have to do it with Jiraiya around. He was there for Sasuke , and was on the pretense of attempting to kidnap Naruto on the Akatsuki's orders as a sound excuse for appearing. I think Danzo mentioned something about it before his death of Itachi's intentions.

Sly itachi is sly :P

Back on Topic -
When talking about justifying against seeking revenge on Konoha i apply Kyrie Ushiromiya's Flip The Chessboard mentality.

So if i were Sasuke i'd follow in his way and 'attempt' to destroy the fuckin village who killed his clan in his opinion. To him Konoha are but a bunch of pretentious peeps who only prospered with the downfall of his clan. Added to the fact that Tobi is always beside him giving him ideas.

It may sound funny , but did anyone watch the movie The Dark Knight [Batman]?

The Joker = Tobi
Harvey Dent = Sasuke

All he needs is a little push. In his eyes since the village is only where it is today by the destruction of the Uchiha Clan he wants the village dead to equal the loss his people faced. The 4 people who came to the decision : Sarutobi , Danzo & the 2 Elders. Sarutobi already died. Danzo was killed by Sasuke. That leaves the 2 Elders. Maybe i got it wrong , but when asked by Hebi and Tobi in a random conversation somewhere in the Anime [i forgot which episode ..] Sasuke said his aim was to kill the 2 village elders after Danzo had died. Tobi den went on to say that if he were to aim for the 2 village elders the underlings aka Konoha would protect the 2 elders. So Sasuke went on to say he will kill everyone who stands in his way.

I'd say those 2 Elders deserve to die if we follow Sasuke's point of view. Even Chiyo had pointed out moments before her death that the old generation of Shinobi and Elders were but a bunch of war-headed fools who were wrong to have thread on the paths they took. The Elders are actually much like Danzo in the sense they prioritize the Leaf before everything else.

Still , rationally speaking killing a ENTIRE village because of a decision made by a bunch of 4 old people is plain crazy. I like how someone above mentioned that Sasuke isn't justified to go after people like Kurenai's unborn son. They shouldn't have to pay for what another had done. Thats actually the same thing Sasuke feels about himself. What makes the Leaf justified to go after the Uchiha Clan just because they are too strong? The Uchiha clan also had young kids and all. But they were deemed too dangerous and got killed.

Its a completely one-sided thing.

On one hand Sasuke in his POV isn't wrong.
However , Humanely speaking thats just insane.

Spoiler for Spoiler from Manga:


So i guess what i'm saying is logically speaking Sasuke is wrong for his warped ideas to destroy Konoha. But i don't wrong him for his decisions personally.

itachi-san314 2011-12-26 13:51

I agree with pretty much everything xKeir said. just adding:

Quote:

Originally Posted by xKeir (Post 3919479)
Spoiler for Spoiler from Manga:


Spoiler for Spoiler from Manga:


xKeir 2011-12-27 05:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by itachi-san314 (Post 3919672)
just adding:

Yeah your right i screwed up. Didn't read the chapter properly.

White Silver King 2011-12-27 18:07

If Sasuke's logic was sound, he wouldn't be entitled to revenge because everyone would seek retribution against him because of the mistakes as an Uchiha. If the wrongs of a few allow you to punish the majority, the people of Konoha should have been able to justify killing the Uchiha clan because of the crimes of Madara, an Uchiha. Sasuke's just a hypocritical narcissist.

xKeir 2011-12-27 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Silver King (Post 3921336)
If Sasuke's logic was sound, he wouldn't be entitled to revenge because everyone would seek retribution against him because of the mistakes as an Uchiha. If the wrongs of a few allow you to punish the majority, the people of Konoha should have been able to justify killing the Uchiha clan because of the crimes of Madara, an Uchiha. Sasuke's just a hypocritical narcissist.

What exactly did Madara do that was wrong ...?

If what Tobi said to Sasuke were true [50/50 , assuming he did speak the truth in some of his words] , the Real Madara only fought the 1st because he knew the Uchiha Clan were being slowly casted aside by the village and he wanted them to get back the power they rightfully deserved. Afterall , the Senju & Uchiha were equal.

The only thing he did wrong was killing members of his own clan to get his eyes. But that isn't something people of Konoha should bother themselves about. After which he shortly died there-after.

Spoiler for Manga Spoiler , advise not to read if you have yet to read the manga :

Akashin 2011-12-27 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Silver King (Post 3921336)
If Sasuke's logic was sound, he wouldn't be entitled to revenge because everyone would seek retribution against him because of the mistakes as an Uchiha. If the wrongs of a few allow you to punish the majority, the people of Konoha should have been able to justify killing the Uchiha clan because of the crimes of Madara, an Uchiha. Sasuke's just a hypocritical narcissist.

Just curious, but what exactly has Sasuke done that would make his desire for revenge hypocritical?

Not sure what you're getting at with the logic bit, though.

MysticNinjaJay 2011-12-28 07:54

The Elders need to pay for their sins.

Obviously the innocent people of Konoha who know nothing about the truth of the Uchiha massacre do not deserve Sasuke's hatred. They aren't responsible.

Eventually Sasuke will probably find out about Tobi's hand in all of this.

Tobi after all used the Kyuubi to attack the village.


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