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-   -   Monogatari Series - Novel/Anime Comparison and Speculation (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=110896)

Shikijin 2012-03-11 06:48

Mod Preface:
The purpose of this thread is to house discussion that seek to compare the novels with the way the content was adapted in the anime, and to speculate on how future novels may be adapted.

If you are going to discuss major plot developments from unanimated novels, please use spoiler tags.

The post below was moved from another thread, and discussion picks up from that point.




The adaptation of Nisemonogatari has its good and its bad, but the bad points are more than I expected. Frankly I am a bit worried about the future adaptations. The problem is that whereas Bakemonogatari was more focused, in Nise there is an increasing amount of inner thoughts that not only offer some exposition but also offer the context for the gags. If you cut them all you end up with something that is not so funny and yet you can't cut because it is referenced elsewhere.

And while in Bake the amount of gags was relatively low, so you could cut them here and there and manage to make it appear more serious, this absolutely didn't work in Nise. At the core it's a slice of life comedy. Cutting most of the comedy is cutting the strong point. It is undeniable that Tsukihi Phoenix has a simple story, but that doesn't mean that you can simplify it to this extent in the adaptation. The adaptation feels as weird as if they changed the main character. Things are the same yet they are not.

Some people explained it to themselves thinking Nise is the worst book in the series (something that got stuck from when there was only Bake, Nise and Kizu out). The truth is that if they continue like this Bake will be better than many other stories in the series. Books whose strong point is the inner thoughts of the main character (like NekoShiro and Otori) will be butchered. Kabuki and Oni will receive the same fate of Tsukihi Phoenix probably. Only those books where there are plenty of interactions between characters like Hana and Koi will avoid to be overly compressed, and even then there will be some people who will find them too long like Nise1 :(

omimon 2012-03-11 07:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shikijin (Post 4047382)
The adaptation of Nisemonogatari has its good and its bad, but the bad points are more than I expected. Frankly I am a bit worried about the future adaptations. The problem is that whereas Bakemonogatari was more focused, in Nise there is an increasing amount of inner thoughts that not only offer some exposition but also offer the context for the gags. If you cut them all you end up with something that is not so funny and yet you can't cut because it is referenced elsewhere.

And while in Bake the amount of gags was relatively low, so you could cut them here and there and manage to make it appear more serious, this absolutely didn't work in Nise. At the core it's a slice of life comedy. Cutting most of the comedy is cutting the strong point. It is undeniable that Tsukihi Phoenix has a simple story, but that doesn't mean that you can simplify it to this extent in the adaptation. The adaptation feels as weird as if they changed the main character. Things are the same yet they are not.

Some people explained it to themselves thinking Nise is the worst book in the series (something that got stuck from when there was only Bake, Nise and Kizu out). The truth is that if they continue like this Bake will be better than many other stories in the series. Books whose strong point is the inner thoughts of the main character (like NekoShiro and Otori) will be butchered. Kabuki and Oni will receive the same fate of Tsukihi Phoenix probably. Only those books where there are plenty of interactions between characters like Hana and Koi will avoid to be overly compressed, and even then there will be some people who will find them too long like Nise1 :(

Let's just hope the Blu-ray version will have added scenes for this episode. It was way too rushed this time.

Sol Falling 2012-03-11 10:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shikijin (Post 4047382)
The adaptation of Nisemonogatari has its good and its bad, but the bad points are more than I expected. Frankly I am a bit worried about the future adaptations. The problem is that whereas Bakemonogatari was more focused, in Nise there is an increasing amount of inner thoughts that not only offer some exposition but also offer the context for the gags. If you cut them all you end up with something that is not so funny and yet you can't cut because it is referenced elsewhere.

And while in Bake the amount of gags was relatively low, so you could cut them here and there and manage to make it appear more serious, this absolutely didn't work in Nise. At the core it's a slice of life comedy. Cutting most of the comedy is cutting the strong point. It is undeniable that Tsukihi Phoenix has a simple story, but that doesn't mean that you can simplify it to this extent in the adaptation. The adaptation feels as weird as if they changed the main character. Things are the same yet they are not.

Some people explained it to themselves thinking Nise is the worst book in the series (something that got stuck from when there was only Bake, Nise and Kizu out). The truth is that if they continue like this Bake will be better than many other stories in the series. Books whose strong point is the inner thoughts of the main character (like NekoShiro and Otori) will be butchered. Kabuki and Oni will receive the same fate of Tsukihi Phoenix probably. Only those books where there are plenty of interactions between characters like Hana and Koi will avoid to be overly compressed, and even then there will be some people who will find them too long like Nise1 :(

Hmm. I do think in Nise it's been harder to follow the interactions and development of the characters. If I hadn't been spoiling myself, I'd probably be a bit lost with this story. Only last episode, for example, did I realize how this season/these novels have done a huge degree of setup for the future developments with Mayoi and Hanekawa's characters. But I wouldn't have realized it without some spoiler knowledge and your very detailed chapter summaries.

One of the things Shinbo has said is that SHAFT's primary goal with adaptations is to satisfy fans of the original series. Perhaps by focusing too much on that, they've sacrificed a large part of the story's appeal/coherency for mainstream, unfamiliar-with-the-source-material audiences.

I think the basic issue is, like you've pointed out, a more limited access to Araragi's internal monologues. On the one hand, I can appreciate that anime is a visual medium, and that it would probably be extremely difficult to include all of the dialogue which was written in the novels in a more complete manner (because talking is slow, and even Bake had to cut out a lot in order to fit the adaptation into 15 episodes). On the other hand, I do think that this final arc, as well as early episodes such as for example episode 2 with Nadeko, could definitely have used more time, extending the season by maybe one or two extra episodes.

I'm still excited for the next episode though, anyway. We are certainly scheduled to finally see some
Spoiler:
, which has been teased in the promo materials from before even the start of the season.

As for the future of the series, I am fine if SHAFT does it in whatever way which will keep up sales. I don't know if the somewhat compressed method of Nise that they used here will necessarily be the best one for that, but I will be satisfied just so long as SHAFT keeps the series healthy enough to do a complete adaptation. In the end, with the light novels more quickly beginning to be translated and myself planning to learn Japanese, I am prepared to go to the novels themselves in order to get the full story if that is necessary--so, I just hope that all the really amazing scenes which fans are looking forward to will be successfully animated.

omimon 2012-03-11 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sol Falling (Post 4047635)
I'm still excited for the next episode though, anyway. We are certainly scheduled to finally see some
Spoiler:
, which has been teased in the promo materials from before even the start of the season.

About your comment within the spoiler tag. We are wayyyyyy past that point.

Sol Falling 2012-03-11 11:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by omimon (Post 4047716)
About your comment within the spoiler tag. We are wayyyyyy past that point.

lol, you guys did mention that it was supposed to have been in the previous episode but I am still holding out that next week they will stuff it in. Otherwise, the whole preview thing would turn out to be a complete troll, which I admit could be potentially hilarious. However, I'm still hoping that it will be there.

Shikijin 2012-03-11 12:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sol Falling (Post 4047635)
One of the things Shinbo has said is that SHAFT's primary goal with adaptations is to satisfy fans of the original series. Perhaps by focusing too much on that, they've sacrificed a large part of the story's appeal/coherency for mainstream, unfamiliar-with-the-source-material audiences.

Honestly, I don't know what Shaft wanted to do. It is obvious that it's not entirely their fault, as the novels themselves were not written with adaptation in mind, and there are points that definitely show that. Perhaps the problem is that Shaft tried to use with Nise the same template they used with Bake or something like that. It simply doesn't work. All the novels are different beasts. This or maybe there are misunderstandings between Nisio and either his fans or Shinbo. For example if you read the books you can see Nisio's specialty is the anticlimax, yet Shaft cut most gags of that type.

Shikijin 2012-03-12 13:55

Nise 10:
Spoiler for chapters 6-7-8-9-10:

teja208 2012-03-12 22:31

@Shikijin
Quote:

Araragi commented as of now no good impression remained of him. At this point he was like an evil fiend.
That's exactly my impression of him after reading the above novel content.:heh:

Just one question. Till this point of Tsukihi arc, Senjougahara hasn't physically appeared yet. Is that right?

monir 2012-03-12 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by teja208 (Post 4050152)
Just one question. Till this point of Tsukihi arc, Senjougahara hasn't physically appeared yet. Is that right?

That's correct.

Kanon 2012-03-15 16:04

Geez, I see they cut a ton of content from the latest episode. There are so many scenes I would have loved to see animated, particularly the ones focused on Shinobu.

Does anybody know why they alloted seven episodes to Karen Bee and only four to Tsukihi Phoenix? Since both novels are roughly the same size, 6 episodes each would have made more sense, or 6-5 if they really couldn't afford to make a 12th episode.

Quote:

Originally Posted by teja208 (Post 4050152)
@Shikijin

That's exactly my impression of him after reading the above novel content.:heh:

It's good to know that Araragi (and by extension Nisio himself) is aware his image has been completely ruined in Nise :heh:

Shikijin 2012-03-19 08:41

Last one for Nise.
Spoiler for chapter 5 (Senjougahara):

Spoiler for chapter 10 (phoenix):

Spoiler for chapters 11-12-13:

Spoiler for addenda:

Overall Tsukihi Phoenix was actually a deep book, despite being over the top in some parts. I liked how Kaiki was somehow rehabilitated with a piece of neat philosophy in the end despite being still a lying bastard, and I like the reason Araragi kissed Tsukihi, to prove she was indeed his sister because he felt nothing from a kiss with her. It still had its flaws as a book, but I think its merits have been downplayed. The anime in this regard was not able to truly make it shine, although I have to say I liked how they rearranged the plot in the chronological order, making it easy to understand (compared to Karen Bee which had a convoluted plot in the book that didn't work well in the anime). I still wonder how came Tsukihi Phoenix was only 4 episodes. Maybe because it had no Hitagi? :rolleyes:

If anything, the anime feels somehow consistent with itself, but the books took their own path, and now the adaptation felt a bit like turning Gintama into Rurouni Kenshin.

Shadow5YA 2012-03-19 11:12

I don't think watching the anime necessarily means missing the theme of fakes. I picked up the word "nisemono" in the dialogue multiple times.

Also, Mayoi did mention the Rolls Royce legend in the anime.

Kanon 2012-03-19 11:22

Thanks a lot once again, Shikijin. Your posts have been highly informative.

A small suggestion: you should add the previous comparisons you posted in the episode threads in the first post. They'll be easier to find this way.

Shikijin 2012-03-19 12:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA (Post 4060518)
I don't think watching the anime necessarily means missing the theme of fakes. I picked up the word "nisemono" in the dialogue multiple times.

I am talking about a different thing, the kanji 偽 (nise). It's used in two kanji words, where it's read "gi". Then again it was not that important (and in some cases maybe it was not even intentional).
Quote:

Also, Mayoi did mention the Rolls Royce legend in the anime.
Did she? I checked episode 9 of Nise, but I can't find it anywhere.

Azuma Denton 2012-03-19 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shikijin (Post 4060306)
Last one for Nise.
Spoiler for chapter 5 (Senjougahara):


Ah so this is how Hitagi called Hanekawa her master...
And the end of fascination... :frustrated:
Nisio Isin really kills Hitagi's character... :frustrated:

ID555 2012-03-20 09:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shikijin (Post 4060645)
I am talking about a different thing, the kanji 偽 (nise). It's used in two kanji words, where it's read "gi". Then again it was not that important (and in some cases maybe it was not even intentional).
Did she? I checked episode 9 of Nise, but I can't find it anywhere.


Many thanks for your hard work, Shikijin. :D


Can you tell us if Senjougahara and the fire sisters' meeting if ever mentioned in the new novels?

Shikijin 2012-03-20 10:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by ID555 (Post 4062298)
Can you tell us if Senjougahara and the fire sisters' meeting if ever mentioned in the new novels?

Spoiler for answer:

ID555 2012-03-20 10:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shikijin (Post 4062360)
Spoiler for answer:

Thanks!

Spoiler:

karice67 2012-04-07 17:24

Whether you'll be buying the Japanese releases or an eventual Western release, prepare to go broke:

http://pics.livejournal.com/karice67/pic/000x5d3w/s320

i.e. "Entire Monogatari Series: Anime Adaptation Confirmed!"

Apparently, they're thinking along the lines of
  • The second series, Neko-white until Koi, as a 2 cour adapatation
  • Neko-black isn't part of the second series, so they're thinking about how to do that

Also came with bad news, unfortunately: 2012 release for Kizu difficult, so it's being postponed.

source: yaraon

Sol Falling 2012-04-07 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by karice67 (Post 4095773)
Whether you'll be buying the Japanese releases or an eventual Western release, prepare to go broke:

http://pics.livejournal.com/karice67/pic/000x5d3w/s320

i.e. "Entire Monogatari Series: Anime Adaptation Confirmed!"

Apparently, they're thinking along the lines of
  • The second series, Neko-white until Koi, as a 2 cour adapatation
  • Neko-black isn't part of the second series, so they're thinking about how to do that

Also came with bad news, unfortunately: 2012 release for Kizu difficult, so it's being postponed.

source: yaraon

Good stuff. Glad to hear that this is coming so quickly. If they were gonna do the whole adaptation, I was worried it would take them something like 5 years.


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