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-   -   Gundam Age - Character Discussion - Fram Nara (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=113767)

james0246 2012-07-27 12:50

Gundam Age - Character Discussion - Fram Nara
 
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Revolutionist 2012-07-27 21:09

I guess I'll break the ice.

Do you guys think her motivations for fighting in this war are shallow or selfish when compared to other characters like Flit, Asemu, and Zeheart for example?
Spoiler for ep41:


Btw, am I the only one who sees some similarities between Fram and young Flit from gen 1?

Rising Dragon 2012-07-27 21:17

Personally, I think her goal was influenced by the fact she's an X-Rounder. Have you noticed that ALL of the X-Rounders, except for two exceptions (and even the bigger of the two has his moments) tend to make really bad decisions?

Desil? Total monster, irresponsible with lives and make stupid mistakes like calling off an attack on the Gundam when it was outmatched because he got bored.

Flit? Gets genocidal thoughts due to one incident that sends him over the edge, thoughts he hasn't let go of in fifty years.

The Magicians 8? Way too out of control concerning their feelings--take Mink for example, who kept flipping out every time one of her team got his ass shot down to the point where even her commanding officers couldn't control her.

Ezelcant? Loses kid, starts a huge social darwin-fueled war to create a superior race to inherit the Earth that's just not going to happen because he's only creating people like Flit instead.

Kio? Massive cases of severe recklessness, like chasing after a traitor instead of defending the ship and the base to try and "bring her back"? Getting to the safety of the ship only to dive right back into the situation that nearly got him kidnapped moments earlier? Running off with the Gundam to make one last visit to a friend when his father is trying to rescue him?

Fram? Ignoring the cause of the war for a (admittedly somewhat honorable) course of action to take out someone if he proves himself to be completely irresponsible with his men. Admirable, yes, but still fueled by a less-than-rational mind.

Is it really any wonder that Ezelcant views the X-Rounder thing as a regression in humanity? IIRC, the novel goes further into the aspect.

Kuroi Hadou 2012-07-27 21:31

Well, on the subject of X-Rounders being more emotive as a whole, that might have to do with them having those predictions of theirs. Rather than acting analytically in a situation, they're much more intuitive since they don't really need to develop the skills necessary to think ahead when their powers do it for them.

Bringing it back to the topic at hand, Fram acted pretty emotionally when she had that vision of Zeheart dying, and from the conversation with the man afterwards her original goal for being there (testing Zeheart) was over. More likely than not, she was a bit lost as to what to do next, since the Vagan cause (as Vagan believes it to be, not what Ezelcant's plan really is) seemed like a backburner concern for her next to discerning for herself whether or not her brother died for nothing.

Yeah, she called out Kio on how she believed his plan was wasting the sacrifices that had already been made so far, but chances are she was talking specifically about her brother, who sacrificed himself for Zeheart's cause, and now she seems ready to do the same. Which is a bit of a shame, given how much talent she has, but at least Zeheart isn't about to use her like Desil used Yurin. Of course, I guess it's better than her stepping into the battlefield without any clue as to why she's fighting.

Revolutionist 2012-07-27 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon (Post 4276881)
Personally, I think her goal was influenced by the fact she's an X-Rounder. Have you noticed that ALL of the X-Rounders, except for two exceptions (and even the bigger of the two has his moments) tend to make really bad decisions?

Desil? Total monster, irresponsible with lives and make stupid mistakes like calling off an attack on the Gundam when it was outmatched because he got bored.

Flit? Gets genocidal thoughts due to one incident that sends him over the edge, thoughts he hasn't let go of in fifty years.

The Magicians 8? Way too out of control concerning their feelings--take Mink for example, who kept flipping out every time one of her team got his ass shot down to the point where even her commanding officers couldn't control her.

Ezelcant? Loses kid, starts a huge social darwin-fueled war to create a superior race to inherit the Earth that's just not going to happen because he's only creating people like Flit instead.

Kio? Massive cases of severe recklessness, like chasing after a traitor instead of defending the ship and the base to try and "bring her back"? Getting to the safety of the ship only to dive right back into the situation that nearly got him kidnapped moments earlier? Running off with the Gundam to make one last visit to a friend when his father is trying to rescue him?

Fram? Ignoring the cause of the war for a (admittedly somewhat honorable) course of action to take out someone if he proves himself to be completely irresponsible with his men. Admirable, yes, but still fueled by a less-than-rational mind.

Is it really any wonder that Ezelcant views the X-Rounder thing as a regression in humanity? IIRC, the novel goes further into the aspect.

I had not noticed but it definitely makes sense now that you point it out. Btw, is Zeheart the only X-Rounder who hasn't made any horrible decisions in the show? I suppose repeatedly sparing Asemu when he had him at his mercy could count...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou (Post 4276900)
Well, on the subject of X-Rounders being more emotive as a whole, that might have to do with them having those predictions of theirs. Rather than acting analytically in a situation, they're much more intuitive since they don't really need to develop the skills necessary to think ahead when their powers do it for them.

Bringing it back to the topic at hand, Fram acted pretty emotionally when she had that vision of Zeheart dying, and from the conversation with the man afterwards her original goal for being there (testing Zeheart) was over. More likely than not, she was a bit lost as to what to do next, since the Vagan cause (as Vagan believes it to be, not what Ezelcant's plan really is) seemed like a backburner concern for her next to discerning for herself whether or not her brother died for nothing.

Yeah, she called out Kio on how she believed his plan was wasting the sacrifices that had already been made so far, but chances are she was talking specifically about her brother, who sacrificed himself for Zeheart's cause, and now she seems ready to do the same. Which is a bit of a shame, given how much talent she has, but at least Zeheart isn't about to use her like Desil used Yurin. Of course, I guess it's better than her stepping into the battlefield without any clue as to why she's fighting.

Zeheart's cause now that I think about is the real Vagan cause, in fact he's the only one really fighting for the common Vagan, even if he's put all his faith on Ezelcant and refuses to believe the truth about plan Eden. IIRC Dole said he was going to believe in Zeheart's cause so now that Fram has chosen to beleive in that too and claims to have understood Dole then I suppose she's fighting for something other than herself, which is going to make her a tough enemy down the road. We already saw snippets of that with Kio, although I can't really tell if that was mostly due to her powers or Kio still being a noobie.

Rising Dragon 2012-07-27 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revolutionist (Post 4276932)
I had not noticed but it definitely makes sense now that you point it out. Btw, is Zeheart the only X-Rounder who hasn't made any horrible decisions in the show? I suppose repeatedly sparing Asemu when he had him at his mercy could count...

Zeheart and Dole, yes. And Zeheart has made mistakes, so to speak, in being merciful to Asem, yes. His appearing before Asem on that colony could've ended REALLY badly. But otherwise, Zeheart shows a remarkable amount of self-restraint compared to Fram and Flit and the like. Dole, too, but that's because we never really get to see him make any kind of big reckless action. His sister, on the other hand...

bio9205 2012-07-27 23:24

What's "Zeheart's cause" that Dole mentioned, exactly? Fighting for the freedom of the Vagan? Isn't that what all the Vagan believe Ezelcant's goal is?

Anyway, aside from sparing Asemu countless times and not being such a good pilot as he was made out to be, I'd say Zeheart is a pretty good commander. He follows through with Ezelcant's orders, and is always thinking ahead and not acting rashly.

Revolutionist 2012-07-27 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by bio9205 (Post 4277037)
What's "Zeheart's cause" that Dole mentioned, exactly? Fighting for the freedom of the Vagan? Isn't that what all the Vagan believe Ezelcant's goal is?

Anyway, aside from sparing Asemu countless times and not being such a good pilot as he was made out to be, I'd say Zeheart is a pretty good commander. He follows through with Ezelcant's orders, and is always thinking ahead and not acting rashly.

Getting the Vagans out of Mars and back to Earth, building a better future for themselves. They don't know about Ezelcant's Social Darwinist agenda and that he's even killed Vagans to further it.

Raysoul 2012-07-28 08:49

What if they pull a reverse-deathflag with this one? Zeheart sacrificing to save Fram is not impossible. He already did try to sacrifice (sorta) himself when he defends Psycho-Mink from Asemu.

bio9205 2012-07-28 09:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raysoul (Post 4277532)
What if they pull a reverse-deathflag with this one? Zeheart sacrificing to save Fram is not impossible. He already did try to sacrifice (sorta) himself when he defends Psycho-Mink from Asemu.

That was different, he knew his Zeydra could take it. If that happens, it'll be a real sacrifice. I doubt it, though. All flags seem to be pointing the other way.

Aquaman OS 2012-07-28 14:13

I really hope they don't have Fram end up dying for Zeheart, only because that would make her the 3rd female character who's sole purpose was to die shielding another for drama.

I really hope Age isn't going to be that uncreative.

Dr. Casey 2012-07-28 14:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon (Post 4276881)
Personally, I think her goal was influenced by the fact she's an X-Rounder. Have you noticed that ALL of the X-Rounders, except for two exceptions (and even the bigger of the two has his moments) tend to make really bad decisions?

Desil? Total monster, irresponsible with lives and make stupid mistakes like calling off an attack on the Gundam when it was outmatched because he got bored.

Flit? Gets genocidal thoughts due to one incident that sends him over the edge, thoughts he hasn't let go of in fifty years.

The Magicians 8? Way too out of control concerning their feelings--take Mink for example, who kept flipping out every time one of her team got his ass shot down to the point where even her commanding officers couldn't control her.

Ezelcant? Loses kid, starts a huge social darwin-fueled war to create a superior race to inherit the Earth that's just not going to happen because he's only creating people like Flit instead.

Kio? Massive cases of severe recklessness, like chasing after a traitor instead of defending the ship and the base to try and "bring her back"? Getting to the safety of the ship only to dive right back into the situation that nearly got him kidnapped moments earlier? Running off with the Gundam to make one last visit to a friend when his father is trying to rescue him?

Fram? Ignoring the cause of the war for a (admittedly somewhat honorable) course of action to take out someone if he proves himself to be completely irresponsible with his men. Admirable, yes, but still fueled by a less-than-rational mind.

Is it really any wonder that Ezelcant views the X-Rounder thing as a regression in humanity? IIRC, the novel goes further into the aspect.

What about Yurin? I think she might've been an X-Rounder as well, though it's been so long since Generation 1 that my memory is iffy.

Rising Dragon 2012-07-28 15:17

Yurin? Yurin thought it'd be a good idea to relent to the Vagan and be their little mobile suit puppet on the off chance she'd see Flit again.

Kuroi Hadou 2012-07-28 17:48

Alright, before this thread gets derailed into a Yurin thread, let's get back on topic. :heh:

At the present moment, the best enemy for Fram to fight might actually be Flit himself. Apart from messing with Flit's head over piloting an upgraded version of the suit his precious Yurin was wearing when she died horribly, if Fram really has decided to follow Zeheart like it was speculated a few posts ago then her ideology (especially about not wasting the sacrifices that had been made to get this far, which would most certainly include Yurin's, ironically enough) is the perfect one to stand in the way of Flit's kill-all-Vagan-leave-no-survivors mentality.

Revolutionist 2012-07-28 19:12

Does she have what it takes to be Flit's nemesis though?

Her resolve and X-Rounder abilities might be enough to overpower a wishy-washy Kio, but Flit is on a whole different level. He's fueled by hatred and vengeance, which alone make anyone a difficult enemy, he's got loads of combat experience and he's a top class X-Rounder.

I'd say Fram is at a severe disadvantage against Flit.

Kuroi Hadou 2012-07-28 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revolutionist (Post 4278355)
Does she have what it takes to be Flit's nemesis though?

Her resolve and X-Rounder abilities might be enough to overpower a wishy-washy Kio, but Flit is on a whole different level. He's fueled by hatred and vengeance, which alone make anyone a difficult enemy, he's got loads of combat experience and he's a top class X-Rounder.

I'd say Fram is at a severe disadvantage against Flit.

I'd say she's got more than enough to go against Flit. Even if Kio is "wishy-washy," his machine far outclassed Fram's in its capabilities but she still made quite an accounting of herself against him. Plus, Flit himself has made it quite clear that Kio is far more potent an X-Rounder than he is (see episode 33), but Fram still backed Kio into a corner enough that Asemu had to go rescue him and wanted to deal with Fram before she could get back to "her allies," which we all know he really wanted to stop her from teaming up with Zeheart. You're underestimating Kio and overestimating Flit, who's only advantage here is his experience, which could easily get shot to hell if ghosts of the past start appearing in front of him.

Rising Dragon 2012-07-28 19:34

I'm curious as to why everyone thinks that Fram's Fawn Farsia will make Flit pause in battle. We've really been given no hint that he's got PSTD concerning a machine of that make--I don't really think Fram being a girl or piloting the same kind of machine Yurin did will bother him. Her being Vagan will probably be enough to get Flit to try and kill her.

Yurin was one thing for Flit, since she wasn't really controlling the machine and didn't want to hurt him, so he merely had to focus on Desil and stop him if he wanted to save Yurin. That Flit is long gone, too, so chances are there isn't going to be any kind of handicap that Fram could take advantage of if she goes up against Flit.

Kuroi Hadou 2012-07-28 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon (Post 4278376)
That Flit is long gone, too, so chances are there isn't going to be any kind of handicap that Fram could take advantage of if she goes up against Flit.

I'm not so sure about that. If that Flit was gone he wouldn't be so antagonistic to Asemu now. Either way, that wasn't the main point of my post and there's no way to say that Flit isn't long gone, either. Considering that Yurin's death is by all indicators his start of darkness, and given how utterly ballistic he went once he saw Desil again in Gen 2, I think it's more probable to expect he would have quite a reaction to a fight with Fram.

That being said, again, the only advantage I can see Flit having here is experience which Fram, by her own admission, lacks. Kio's not exactly a novice in MS combat either, and he's not what anyone would call a weak X-Rounder, so I wouldn't discredit Fram here solely on the basis of her opponent being Flit.

Revolutionist 2012-07-28 20:17

The thing is X-Rounder abilities isn't the end all be all of ms combat in AGE. Asemu has shown that skill, and sometimes trickery, go a long way in determining who wins. So even if Flit is not nowhere near Kio and Fram, he's still a pretty high level X-Rounder and he can make up the difference with his decades worth of piloting experiencing.

Kuroi Hadou 2012-07-28 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revolutionist (Post 4278433)
The thing is X-Rounder abilities isn't the end all be all of ms combat in AGE.

When did I ever say it was? You were the one who brought in Flit's X-Rounder powers when comparing his combat ability to Fram's. Either way, this isn't a VS thread, and we're getting off my intention for bringing this whole thing up, which is that in a meta sense, Fram would be the best opponent for Flit in the endgame.

New discussion topic, since this one is going in circles: Should we take the lack of common family name between Dole Frost and Fram Nara to mean they're only half-siblings?


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