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-   -   Character Discussion - Makishima Shougo (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=117047)

monir 2012-12-29 22:27

Character Discussion - Makishima Shougo
 
The purpose of this thread is to provide a place to discuss all things Makishima Shougo related.
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MisaoFan 2012-12-30 11:22

The antagonist is creepy as hell, and he happens to enjoy the dark side of humanity that Sibyl System deems indifferent (in my opinion). The way he was treated as a happy civilian seriously cause a lot of problems for the system to be flawed in the first place, not to mention his clear hue and low CC seriously causes a lot of problems as he's a sociopath. I can't even tell if the same apply to Akane as well.

Kirarakim 2012-12-30 18:55

Thank you for creating this thread :)

I really enjoy Makishima as a villain. Although make no mistake even if his aim turns out to be to destroy a messed up system I will still see him as a villain. Mainly because I never agreed with the ends justified the means philosophy. But not to start an argument perhaps I should use the phrase antagonist from here on out.

Anyways I am the type of person who is rarely interested in the antagonist (I did like Kyuubey a lot as well so it seems to be one of Urobutchi's strong points) but what I like about Makishima is I believe in his persuasive power.
I think the fact that when he talks I can feel it myself is what makes Makishima work for me. Makishima is like an improved Moriaty for me ( an antagonist I like the idea of more than the execution, but in this case I enjoy the execution as well)

Looking forward to the psychological battle he plays with Kogami & Akane.

Chiaki_chan 2012-12-30 19:17

Makishima is a very interesting villain, and I must admit before the last episode I thought what did the end of the anime have its coefficient would discover crime and it would reach 500 or more! I was shocked, seeing that the CC had was so "low" and it decreased
O_o

Qilin 2012-12-30 19:51

Makishima is a great antagonist. I wouldn't like him as person, I love him as a character. I don't even think he has a concrete goal in mind. He might just be the type to watch the system burn down to the ground while stroking his inflated sense of ego. He's an example of the sort of rare individual that can see the strings that holds their fragile society in place. But then he goes for stretching these "strings" for a far as I can go than anything else. He's like this gamer that continuously tries to look for ways break the game just for its own sake. In that sense, I'd say his character is more similar to Joker or Johan Liebert.

If Gen Urobuchi were to self-insert himself into a character, it would be as this guy. Makishima's approach of exposing the vulnerabilities of the society by brutally ripping its guts apart seems like the sort of thing Urobuchi likes doing to his own characters. Heh.

Chiaki_chan 2013-01-01 02:41

Is that it would be possible to have Makishima want to be killed?? By a person who has the will to kill will decide by itself and not by Sibylle short he wants to die he mocks death if it is this type of person?? Because after seeing the episode with the confrontation Makishima Akane and that gives a firearm easily ...

Shadow5YA 2013-01-03 01:09

I know Kogami is paired up with Makishima as the hero-villain duo, but I can't help but think it will actually be Akane who stops him in the end.

NoemiChan 2013-01-03 01:24

The bastard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiaki_chan (Post 4496204)
Is that it would be possible to have Makishima want to be killed??

Probably, but I don't get the point why he has to involve the innocent (yah, why bishoujo's?! and not some ugly bi*ch down the alley). He really want his pursuers to go crazy on him.

If he just want to be be killed. Why not strip naked in the park dancing Gangnam and I'm sure his sanity reading will shoot up to 200% confirming him as a lunatic...

bakuramariks 2013-01-03 06:48

It's so funny how most people want a villain to be killed and hate him so much just because he killed someone innocent. Don't think I'm offensive or anything, I just find it funny.
But the thing I absolutely adore in Makishima is the fact that he's always composed, silently walking around but he can kill you without a second thought. His methods of manipulating others to kill in my opinion is very interesting. I've seen villains who wants to kill and they do, but Makishima shows more from his personality by manipulating others. It's dangerous but also beautiful how he makes strangers follow him with just his words. He finds their weakness and uses it to his advantage. This is far more dangerous because it is secretive.
I love Maki as a villain also for his views on people and society. It is thought provoking.
I hope he reaches the goal he has in mind at least to some degree. It would be a waste if in the end he dies without achieving something. It's Gen, I should have faith in him :D.

monir 2013-01-03 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by bakuramariks (Post 4498587)
But the thing I absolutely adore in Makishima is the fact that he's always composed, silently walking around but he can kill you without a second thought. His methods of manipulating others to kill in my opinion is very interesting. I've seen villains who wants to kill and they do, but Makishima shows more from his personality by manipulating others. It's dangerous but also beautiful how he makes strangers follow him with just his words. He finds their weakness and uses it to his advantage. This is far more dangerous because it is secretive..

I have to disagree with the notion that Makishima is manipulating people to turn them into killers. All of the killers in the show were very willing participant and actively justified the reasoning behind their killing. The credit Makishima gets is at picking these people out and provide the means to carry out their killing without minimum interference from the Sibyl System. Makishima didn't manipulate those killers into doing anything. I'm sure they wanted to kill (and have been killing, i.e. the cyborg) even before they came to know Makishima, but until they met him, they weren't confident enough to feel they would be able to get away with those murders.

And that pretty much exposes one of the critical weaknesses of the Sibyl System which is the impossibility of shaping thoughts, emotions, feeling etc. which makes a human, human. Even if the system successfully suppresses those urge which lead people to kill others, there can always be people like Makishima.

I also wouldn't say Makishima is "composed." I don't think he actually experience the normal range of emotion that are needed for him to demonstrate and maintain composure. Even his brain functions differ from any other killers in the show as pointed out by those crime coefficient figures in episode 11. This guy is unique among how we would define a Psychopath and we have seen at least two example of psychopath in the highschool girl and the guy with the buffalo shot gun.

bakuramariks 2013-01-04 07:24

Yes, I agree with you.
But, for me, taking advantage of their desire to kill so you can also achieve your goal, whatever it is, is a manipulative act.

Vicious108 2013-01-18 03:49

Makishima is an interesting one as far as Urobuchi creations go (and in general as well of course). Usually his characters start out with a pure and/or noble ideal in mind, but as the ideal clashes with the harsh reality around them and ends up causing them almost nothing but despair, they become corrupted and start to follow said ideal through unscrupulous means, which often (and unbeknownst to the character) directly contradict the original aim of the ideal.

And where Makishima sets himself apart from those is that (it seems) he actually started out that way. Here we have a guy who above all else champions people's free will and thus seeks to upset a system that undermines it, which can hardly be called a villainous motivation, only he's always gone about it in a villainous manner, e.g. enabling serial killers.

But regardless of how one may feel about his methods, his ideas are certainly interesting and compelling, especially his appraisal of the Sybil system's effect on society — it's stripped people's lives of meaning and their actions of value by suppressing their free will. Thus, as one who is able to live outside of the constraints of said system, he's taken it upon himself to be the one to liberate those suppressed from the shackles of society and restore meaning to their lives.

So yeah, all in all, I'm sold. Definitely looking forward to seeing how he will try to bring out the "splendor" in Kougami's soul.

Roger Rambo 2013-01-18 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicious108 (Post 4517296)
And where Makishima sets himself apart from those is that (it seems) he actually started out that way. Here we have a guy who above all else champions people's free will and thus seeks to upset a system that undermines it, which can hardly be called a villainous motivation, only he's always gone about it in a villainous manner, e.g. enabling serial killers.

Except Makishima isn't enabling "people's free will". He's enabling the free will of serial killers. In this equation, "people" are just cattle. That kind of mindset is arguably even worse than the setup for the Sybil system.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicious108 (Post 4517296)
But regardless of how one may feel about his methods, his ideas are certainly interesting and compelling, especially his appraisal of the Sybil system's effect on society — it's stripped people's lives of meaning and their actions of value by suppressing their free will. Thus, as one who is able to live outside of the constraints of said system, he's taken it upon himself to be the one to liberate those suppressed from the shackles of society and restore meaning to their lives.

I'd honestly say that by this point, that's presuming allot too much altruism on Makishima's part. Especially when one of those aspects of "Free will suppression" that Makishima dislikes seems to be not allowing people to engage in wanton murder. That doesn't really frame Makishima's complaint as anything other than lambasting organized society in general, rather than the clinical oligarchy in the Psycho-Pass world. His rhetoric and methods certainly contrast to the pro-democracy agitation that Rina and her friends were up to in episode 12. When compared to that, the idea that Makishima's group is trying to enable freedom in any kind of pro-social kind of way comes off as a bit of a joke.


Everything is subjective, but I'm not entirely sure that murder fueled anarchy is all that compelling to most people.

Vicious108 2013-01-18 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo (Post 4518006)
Except Makishima isn't enabling "people's free will". He's enabling the free will of serial killers.

...And serial killers are people, ergo he is still very much enabling people's free will. Your disapproval of his specific choices of people doesn't change that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo (Post 4518006)
I'd honestly say that by this point, that's presuming allot too much altruism on Makishima's part. Especially when one of those aspects of "Free will suppression" that Makishima dislikes seems to be not allowing people to engage in wanton murder. That doesn't really frame Makishima's complaint as anything other than lambasting organized society in general, rather than the clinical oligarchy in the Psycho-Pass world. His rhetoric and methods certainly contrast to the pro-democracy agitation that Rina and her friends were up to in episode 12. When compared to that, the idea that Makishima's group is trying to enable freedom in any kind of pro-social kind of way comes off as a bit of a joke.

It's not altruism because he clearly derives entertainment from his endeavors. He's doing it because it's what he wants to do, i.e. following his own will and desires.

And of course it isn't pro-social. If one is to always act based on his or her own will, there will inevitably be occasions where one will have to go against society and what's best for the majority. Makishima is championing individualism.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo (Post 4518006)
Everything is subjective, but I'm not entirely sure that murder fueled anarchy is all that compelling to most people.

...I never said it was? Nor do I think Makishima believes it to be. But the point here (or at least the point I was going for) isn't to cast moral judgments upon the character, but rather to try and ascertain the way his mind works.

ChainLegacy 2013-01-19 01:55

He's the perfect foil to the enforcers that Akane works with. From both sides of the coin they contribute to prove the flaws in the Cybil System. Additionally, I've always been a big fan of villains like this who are calm to a chilling extent and have fun committing their heinous acts, all while displaying an amazing capacity for intelligence. They represent perhaps the most scary possible human being that could exist. I hope he doesn't end up being an 'anti-hero' crusading against the system, but rather continue to perform his current role and expose the flaws in the system simply by his existence and actions.

Roger Rambo 2013-01-19 11:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy (Post 4518598)
I hope he doesn't end up being an 'anti-hero' crusading against the system, but rather continue to perform his current role and expose the flaws in the system simply by his existence and actions.

I kind of agree with you there. After all the things that Makishima has said and done...it'd just feel forced for him to turn out to be a pragmatic whatever it takes for the greater good kinda guy. Makishima just doesn't seem remotely like a hard man making hard decisions like Emiya from Fate Zero was. He seems to enjoy wanton violence against innocent people far too much for his final objective to be something that a normal person would ever consider to be heroic or noble.

Qilin 2013-01-20 06:20

I'd rather compare Makishima Shougo to an artist. He takes great pride and pleasure in bringing out the humanity within a person. Given his ego, he's out to recover those little shreds of humanity that people have lost after the introduction of the Sybil system. Does the artist care about the wishes of his canvas? His paint? His slab of stone? Nope. It simply becomes whatever the artist wants it to become.

Shougo is the artist and the entirety of society is his canvas. We are currently witnessing the creation of his masterpiece, his magnum opus, so to speak.

Roger Rambo 2013-01-20 10:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qilin (Post 4520252)
I'd rather compare Makishima Shougo to an artist. He takes great pride and pleasure in bringing out the humanity within a person. Given his ego, he's out to recover those little shreds of humanity that people have lost after the introduction of the Sybil system. Does the artist care about the wishes of his canvas? His paint? His slab of stone? Nope. It simply becomes whatever the artist wants it to become.

Shougo is the artist and the entirety of society is his canvas. We are currently witnessing the creation of his masterpiece, his magnum opus, so to speak.

But the only way we've seen him try to express *humanity* is through the actions of serial killers. I really think people are putting too much emphasis in the antagonism that Makishima has to the Sybil system, and ignoring the level of antagonism he probably has with organized society and civilization in general. Cause the ideal of "wanton murder for artistic purposes" is incompatible with almost every society on earth.


Do you really think Makishima would sit next to Rina and respect her ideals about wanting to revert society to a liberal democracy?

Vicious108 2013-01-20 10:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo (Post 4520445)
But the only way we've seen him try to express *humanity* is through the actions of serial killers. I really think people are putting too much emphasis in the antagonism that Makishima has to the Sybil system, and ignoring the level of antagonism he probably has with organized society and civilization in general. Cause the ideal of "wanton murder for artistic purposes" is incompatible with almost every society on earth.

Oh for the love of…

Can't you take a hint, man? Nobody cares about your little moral crusade against a fictional character. We get it — you think Makishima is a horrible person and hate him with all of your being. Now that you've made that abundantly and excessively clear, can you please stop trying to dumb down every single attempt at an in-depth analysis of his character? Thanks.

Roger Rambo 2013-01-20 10:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicious108 (Post 4520464)
Oh for the love of…

Can't you take a hint, man? Nobody cares about your little moral crusade against a fictional character. We get it — you think Makishima is a horrible person and hate him with all of your being. Now that you've made that abundantly and excessively clear, can you please stop trying to dumb down every single attempt at an in-depth analysis of his character? Thanks.

Nobodies forcing you to read my comments or respond to them if you feel they're getting repetitive. I'm not actually opposed to that, since I think you're a pretty interesting person to talk to Vicious. But in a free discussion I'm not under any obligation to not elaborates on particular points of interests.

If you don't like that, you're free to ignore it, or at the very least use much more straight forward ways of telling me to shut up. ;)


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