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-   -   The Blend of Serious Action and Sexual Fanservice in shows like Strike Witches (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=117286)

Triple_R 2013-01-11 14:13

The Blend of Serious Action and Sexual Fanservice in shows like Strike Witches
 
[MOD EDIT: This conversation was moved from the Vivid Red Operation anime thread, as it's a standalone topic that is actually a bit more related to Strike Witches and others shows]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Om Nerabdator (Post 4508770)
I dont believe you since you have a yuri kiss avy you must be like the rest of us men ^^

I don't like fanservice mixed with action scenes. The mood I like to be in during an action scene does not gel well with a more erotic mood. Honestly, I don't get why anybody would want fanservice in a freakin' action scene. During an action scene I want to focus on the action, not a close-up of anatomy that's neither throwing attacks or receiving them.

If the tone for a scene is lighthearted, or actually erotic, then I sometimes like fanservice in those scenes. But I found with Strike Witches they'd pull the fanservice at some of the worst possible times.

relentlessflame 2013-01-11 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R (Post 4508810)
I don't like fanservice mixed with action scenes. The mood I like to be in during an action scene does not gel well with a more erotic mood. Honestly, I don't get why anybody would want fanservice in a freakin' action scene. During an action scene I want to focus on the action, not a close-up of anatomy that's neither throwing attacks or receiving them.

Personally, I just can't compartmentalize things so much, I guess. Fanservice in an action scene is, to me, just eye candy and doesn't generally break the mood. I had no problem watching something like Strike Witches for that reason.

This sort of reminds me of the "don't put <genre x> in my <genre y> show" argument, but in a different way. To me, it's the blend of the two that's part of the appeal. But it comes down to each person being wired differently, I guess.

Triple_R 2013-01-11 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by relentlessflame (Post 4508820)
Personally, I just can't compartmentalize things so much, I guess.

It's not about "compartmentalizing". What do people naturally focus on when they see a fight? They focus on the attacks thrown, where they hit, and how the combatants respond to the attacks. People generally don't go leering at one of the combatant's butts when they see a fight that they care about. Because such a fight is obviously engaging enough as it is.

I honestly find the Strike Witches approach to camera focus during combat to be jarringly unnatural, and immersion-breaking.


Quote:

Fanservice in an action scene is, to me, just eye candy and doesn't necessarily break the mood.
The action itself is not visually alluring enough, for its own inherent reasons?


Quote:

This sort of reminds me of the "don't put <genre x> in my <genre y> show" argument, but in a different way. To me, it's the blend of the two that's part of the appeal.
So you think that having a character's ass shoved in your face makes an action scene more appealing? You're in the mood for this right in the middle of an action scene?

relentlessflame 2013-01-11 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R (Post 4508828)
So you think that having a character's ass shoved in your face makes an action scene more appealing? You're in the mood for this right in the middle of an action scene?

It has nothing to do with being "in the mood" -- it just doesn't distract me all that much. I don't "appreciate the action for the action" and "appreciate the fanservice for the fanservice" separately -- it's all mixed together. That's why I called the opposite "compartmentalizing". To be honest, though, I guess maybe I don't find it as distracting as you do in the first place.

Maybe I also watch action scenes differently. I tend to focus more on the holistic composition of the scenes, not just on the "the attacks thrown, where they hit, and how the combatants respond to the attacks". I don't generally treat it like watching athletes playing sports (which, honestly, I don't do that much anyway). So maybe that's why I don't find it so distracting. If you're trying to focus on the technical execution of the action, then I suppose that fanservice might get in your way. I've tended to like my favourite "action scenes" more for the way everything came together overall (narrative, cinematography, colours, lights, composition, music, sound, etc.); they may be horrible from a technical "combat" perspective for all I know.

NoemiChan 2013-01-11 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun (Post 4508783)
That makes no sense. Liking yuri doesn't necessarily mean you're going to like fanservice. Yuri isn't always fanservice, after all. It depends on the show.

Yuri are intended for male fans.. well, if its made by a man unless its made by a lesbian author then its for them.

Triple_R 2013-01-11 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by relentlessflame (Post 4508843)
It has nothing to do with being "in the mood" -- it just doesn't distract me all that much. I don't "appreciate the action for the action" and "appreciate the fanservice for the fanservice" separately -- it's all mixed together. That's why I called the opposite "compartmentalizing". To be honest, though, I guess maybe I don't find it as distracting as you do in the first place.

Maybe I also watch action scenes differently. I tend to focus more on the holistic composition of the scenes, not just on the "the attacks thrown, where they hit, and how the combatants respond to the attacks". I don't generally treat it like watching athletes playing sports (which, honestly, I don't do that much anyway). So maybe that's why I don't find it so distracting. If you're trying to focus on the technical execution of the action, then I suppose that fanservice might get in your way. I've tended to like my favourite "action scenes" more for the way everything came together overall (narrative, cinematography, colours, lights, composition, music, sound, etc.); they may be horrible from a technical "combat" perspective for all I know.

Ok, I think I get what you're saying now.

Being a pro sports fan, and a pro wrestling fan at one time, probably does influence me a bit here. So technical execution of the action is important to me.

I guess for somebody that isn't that focused on the technical aspect of the action, pairing it with some fanservice isn't as distracting, at least not in a bad way.

Obelisk ze Tormentor 2013-01-11 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by relentlessflame (Post 4508820)
Personally, I just can't compartmentalize things so much, I guess. Fanservice in an action scene is, to me, just eye candy and doesn't generally break the mood. I had no problem watching something like Strike Witches for that reason.

Fanservice in fights can definitely work as long as the fight itself is presented with comedic or not-so-serious tone (like what we get so far in this anime). But when it comes to serious fight (as in, the fighters can get badly hurt or even die, or the fight itself is intended to cause grief), I agree with Triple R that they should be more focusing on the actual fighting elements as in "attacks thrown, where they hit, and how the combatants respond to the attacks" and the likes. For example, how would you feel if (in Fate/Zero) Ufotable decided to focus on Saber’s boobs and ass whenever she fights? I personally will consider it insulting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R (Post 4508828)
I honestly find the Strike Witches approach to camera focus during combat to be jarringly unnatural, and immersion-breaking.

Hell yeah. I couldn't agree more.

OceanBlue 2013-01-11 17:11

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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor (Post 4508954)
For example, how would you feel if (in Fate/Zero) Ufotable decided to focus on Saberís boobs and ass whenever she fights? I personally will consider it insulting.

That's not a very good comparison. Relentlessflame already told you what he thought about the fanservice in Strike Witches and Vivid Red Operation. I don't see how comparing it to a completely different show with a completely different tone will change his mind.

NoemiChan 2013-01-11 17:19

IMHO the scenes I can call as fanservice in this episode are:

> The bloomers and her butt focus during the opening and
> Butt focus on the transformation scene.

*I also say that the way those girls held hands during the rescue scene is fanservice.. That's not a smart way to held ones hand when attempting a rescue.

Triple_R 2013-01-11 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor (Post 4508954)
Fanservice in fights can definitely work as long as the fight itself is presented with comedic or not-so-serious tone (like what we get so far in this anime). But when it comes to serious fight (as in, the fighters can get badly hurt or even die, or the fight itself is intended to cause grief), I agree with Triple R that they should be more focusing on the actual fighting elements as in "attacks thrown, where they hit, and how the combatants respond to the attacks" and the likes. For example, how would you feel if (in Fate/Zero) Ufotable decided to focus on Saberís boobs and ass whenever she fights? I personally will consider it insulting.

Agreed.

Let's say you have a sparring contest between a couple of the Strike Witches and you know that nothing aside from personal pride is on the line here. Then fine, crack out the fanservice, since the fight itself is pretty superfluous anyway.

But if you're having people fight alien monsters that seem bent on destroying the world, then that's kind of serious, if you ask me. :heh:


Quote:

Originally Posted by OceanBlue (Post 4508984)
That's not a very good comparison. Relentlessflame already told you what he thought about the fanservice in Strike Witches and Vivid Red Operation. I don't see how comparing it to a completely different show with a completely different tone will change his mind.

Strike Witches and Vivid Red Operation both seem to be about superpowered girls fighting alien monsters that seem bent on destroying the world. How is that any less serious in tone than trying to win The Holy Grail?

So I think that Obelisk ze Tormentor's comparison is fine.

OceanBlue 2013-01-11 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R (Post 4508997)
Strike Witches and Vivid Red Operation both seem to be about superpowered girls fighting alien monsters that seem bent on destroying the world. How is that any less serious in tone than trying to win The Holy Grail?

So I think that Obelisk ze Tormentor's comparison is fine.

That's premise, not tone. I can't speak for Vivid Red Operation as we're only one episode in, but I don't see how you can watch Strike Witches and Fate/Zero and say that they tried to convey the same sort of mood.

His comparison is the equivalent of saying that Fate/Zero shouldn't have gore because it would be out of place in Strike Witches.

Triple_R 2013-01-11 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by OceanBlue (Post 4509003)
That's premise, not tone. I can't speak for Vivid Red Operation as we're only one episode in, but I don't see how you can watch Strike Witches and Fate/Zero and say that they tried to convey the same sort of mood.

A Superman comic tends to read much "brighter" than a Batman comic but nonetheless if Superman is trying to rescue a crashing plane with lives on the line, that's a serious moment.

Strike Witches is similarly "brighter" than Fate/Zero, but nonetheless what the Strike Witches are doing is often of a serious nature. Something doesn't have to be "dark" in order to be "serious".


What determines the seriousness of an action scene is...

1) What are the stakes? If lives are on the line, it's serious. If it's just somebody's pride on the line, it might be less serious.

2) How much do the participants care about it? The more intense the participants are over it, the more serious it is (unless the high intensity itself is played for laughs, of course).


Quote:

His argument is the equivalent of saying that Fate/Zero shouldn't have gore because it would be out of place in Strike Witches.
I wouldn't have a problem with some gore in Strike Witches. I don't think such gore would be out of place in Strike Witches.

Don't tell me that gore can't be mixed with cute girls because I've seen (and enjoyed) Higurashi, Umineko, and Another.

Obelisk ze Tormentor 2013-01-11 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by OceanBlue (Post 4509003)
That's premise, not tone. I can't speak for Vivid Red Operation as we're only one episode in, but I don't see how you can watch Strike Witches and Fate/Zero and say that they tried to convey the same sort of mood.

His comparison is the equivalent of saying that Fate/Zero shouldn't have gore because it would be out of place in Strike Witches.

Mind you that my argument actually doesn’t refer to the overall tone of the anime, but only the tone of the fights. You see, even for a funny anime like Slayers, when the fight get serious, they make it serious. They throw all the fanservice outta the window and focus more on the spells and physical attacks, and how the fighters respond to it. So, there’s nothing wrong in comparing the fights in VRO and Fate/Zero.

Triple_R 2013-01-11 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor (Post 4509017)
Mind you that my argument actually doesnít refer to the overall tone of the anime, but only the tone of the fights. You see, even for a funny anime like Slayers, when the fight get serious, they make it serious. They throw all the fanservice outta the window and focus more on the spells and physical attacks, and how the fighters respond to it. So, thereís nothing wrong in comparing the fights in VRO and Fate/Zero.

Good point.

Slayers is a good example of a show that knows how to seamlessly gravitate between lighthearted and serious. Slayers does have its fanservice, but it kicks it to the curb when the major fights happen.

relentlessflame 2013-01-11 18:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor (Post 4509017)
Mind you that my argument actually doesn’t refer to the overall tone of the anime, but only the tone of the fights. You see, even for a funny anime like Slayers, when the fight get serious, they make it serious. They throw all the fanservice outta the window and focus more on the spells and physical attacks, and how the fighters respond to it. So, there’s nothing wrong in comparing the fights in VRO and Fate/Zero.

You can compare them if you'd like, but every show is also allowed to have its own approach in terms of how it blends its elements. One director may prefer to limit the fanservice to the comedic/light-hearted scenes, while another director may make the fanservice constant to some degree throughout the whole show (to the point where some people may just stop noticing it unless it's pointed out to them).

In the end, it's just something that some people will get over easily, and others can't. It depends on the person. I do think it's part of the flavour of the show, though.

OceanBlue 2013-01-11 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R (Post 4509015)
A Superman comic tends to read much "brighter" than a Batman comic but nonetheless if Superman is trying to rescue a crashing plane with lives on the line, that's a serious moment.

Strike Witches is similarly "brighter" than Fate/Zero, but nonetheless what the Strike Witches are doing is often of a serious nature. Something doesn't have to be "dark" in order to be "serious".

Superman and Batman set their own boundaries on what they will and won't include in their scenes. I'm not saying that anything lighter than Fate/Zero can have fanservice in its fight scenes. I'm saying that comparing the fights in Fate/Zero, which establishes a lack of fanservice early on, and VRO, which establishes a certain level of fanservice in its first episode, while for some reason ignoring that they establish a level of fanservice in their shows is a bad comparison.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R (Post 4509015)
I wouldn't have a problem with some gore in Strike Witches. I don't think such gore would be out of place in Strike Witches.

Don't tell me that gore can't be mixed with cute girls because I've seen (and enjoyed) Higurashi, Umineko, and Another.

I'm not saying that either. Maybe if Strike Witches were a different show, it would have mutilation and gore. Maybe if K-On were a different show, Yui would be flying around hitting people with Excalibur.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor (Post 4509017)
Mind you that my argument actually doesn’t refer to the overall tone of the anime, but only the tone of the fights. You see, even for a funny anime like Slayers, when the fight get serious, they make it serious. They throw all the fanservice outta the window and focus more on the spells and physical attacks, and how the fighters respond to it. So, there’s nothing wrong in comparing the fights in VRO and Fate/Zero.

I don't see how comparing yet another dissimilar anime makes your comparison any more valid. All that you've told me is that Slayers does its own thing, Fate/Zero does its own thing, VRO does its own thing, and wouldn't it be swell if VRO did the same thing Slayers did! The problem is that you're taking one element out of one show and comparing it to another show while ignoring everything else about those two shows. You're making a bad comparison because you're intentionally ignoring how the two shows function as a whole.

I'm not saying you guys aren't allowed to dislike how VRO inserts fanservice in its fights. I can completely understand your points of view in saying that it takes you out of the fight (even though I don't feel the same way). It's just a lousy comparison.

Obelisk ze Tormentor 2013-01-11 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by relentlessflame (Post 4509065)
You can compare them if you'd like, but every show is also allowed to have its own approach in terms of how it blends its elements. One director may prefer to limit the fanservice to the comedic/light-hearted scenes, while another director may make the fanservice constant to some degree throughout the whole show (to the point where some people may just stop noticing it unless it's pointed out to them).

In the end, it's just something that some people will get over easily, and others can't. It depends on the person. I do think it's part of the flavour of the show, though.

Of course my opinion is for myself. And it just happen that I agree with Triple R. I'm merely stating what I think. I'm not forcing my view into others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OceanBlue (Post 4509069)
I don't see how comparing yet another dissimilar anime makes your comparison any more valid. All that you've told me is that Slayers does its own thing, Fate/Zero does its own thing, VRO does its own thing, and wouldn't it be swell if VRO did the same thing Slayers did! The problem is that you're taking one element out of one show and comparing it to another show while ignoring everything else about those two shows. You're making a bad comparison because you're intentionally ignoring how the two shows function as a whole.

I'm not saying you guys aren't allowed to dislike how VRO inserts fanservice in its fights. I can completely understand your points of view in saying that it takes you out of the fight (even though I don't feel the same way). It's just a lousy comparison.

You still don’t get it. Okay, let me simplified my point:

Fate/Zero has serious fights
Slayers has serious fights
Now, assuming that VRO will also have serious fights, there’s nothing wrong in comparing how much fanservice inserted in those fights. Unless VRO will not have any serious fights at all after this.

Once again, I’m not comparing the overall anime but only the serious fights. If you still don’t get it after this post, then I give up.

Triple_R 2013-01-11 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by OceanBlue (Post 4509069)
Superman and Batman set their own boundaries on what they will and won't include in their scenes. I'm not saying that anything lighter than Fate/Zero can have fanservice in its fight scenes. I'm saying that comparing the fights in Fate/Zero, which establishes a lack of fanservice early on, and VRO, which establishes a certain level of fanservice in its first episode, while for some reason ignoring that they establish a level of fanservice in their shows is a bad comparison.

"Boundaries" are simply choices that shows make. Those boundaries don't, in and of themselves, determine how comparable two different shows are, particularly at a mere scene-to-scene level.

A serious fight is a serious fight, regardless of the "boundaries" set by the show which includes it. It thus can be compared to equally serious fights in other shows.


Quote:

I'm not saying you guys aren't allowed to dislike how VRO inserts fanservice in its fights. I can completely understand your points of view in saying that it takes you out of the fight (even though I don't feel the same way). It's just a lousy comparison.
No, it's not. It's a perfectly fine comparison.

I'm honestly at a lost to understand why this particular comparison seems to bother you so much. If fanservice in a serious fight scene doesn't bother you then why would you be bothered by fanservice in a Saber fight in Fate/Zero?

Random32 2013-01-11 19:42

<3 fanservice. Anyways.

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I'm honestly at a lost to understand why this particular comparison seems to bother you so much. If fanservice in a serious fight scene doesn't bother you then why would you be bothered by fanservice in a Saber fight in Fate/Zero?
I would be bothered since I didn't watch Fate/Zero for the fanservice. I would be bothered by blatant fanservice pretty much anywhere in Fate/Zero. It has more to do with me than it has to do with Fate/Zero. If I were to watch your fanservice-upped version of Fate/Zero with a different mindset toward it, I would enjoy the fanservice in the fight scenes.

That really is it. Since at least part of why I'm watching VRO is the fanservice, I really don't mind fanservice, actually, I quite enjoy it.

relentlessflame 2013-01-11 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R (Post 4509093)
A serious fight is a serious fight, regardless of the "boundaries" set by the show which includes it. It thus can be compared to equally serious fights in other shows.

[...]

I'm honestly at a lost to understand why this particular comparison seems to bother you so much. If fanservice in a serious fight scene doesn't bother you then why would you be bothered by fanservice in a Saber fight in Fate/Zero?

I honestly don't understand the way your brain works if you're making this argument. I don't mean that as some sort of a slight, but I just don't understand it. I can only try to help you understand the way I see it myself so at least you can see where some people are coming from, even if you don't see it that way yourself.

When I see a "serious fight", I always consider it in the context of the work in which its presented. My brain doesn't suddenly switch to "serious fight mode" and start comparing it to other serious fights in other unrelated shows. All "serious fights" may be "serious fights", but the universe in which the show is occurring changes my expectations and thus my reactions. This isn't reality after all; each fictional world is different and has its own standards, rules, and expectations.

Fate/Zero is a very dark, serious show pretty much from end-to-end. It has its mood, its sense of direction, and its own style. To do something that is inconsistent with its own established style would be jarring, and unlikely to be well-received by the audience who was expecting something else. But this is a bright and colourful show focused on cute heroines, and it established that fanservice is an element of the show throughout. So once we understand that this is just part of its style, even in "serious fights", then it ceases to be jarring within its own established framework. This is just like how a franchise like Muv-Luv is laden with serious action and bloodshed, but its heroines are clad in extremely revealing battle attire the whole time. There are fights that are absolutely "serious" and deadly, but the outfits could also be seen as a sort of constant fanservice. To some people, I suppose that would break their suspension of disbelief and cause them to not take the "serious fights" as seriously. But it doesn't have to be that way for everyone.

The comparison is not invalid, but to me its value is severely limited. Not least of which is because two shows with such different moods, approaches, and styles are unlikely to result in the very same set of expectations. You have a very specific personal set of expectations that apply to all serious fighting scenes regardless of the show... but that isn't the way it has to be.


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