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Pellissier 2013-04-25 15:31

Suisei no Gargantia - Science & Technology
 
Thread for the discussion of Science & Technology in Suisei no Gargantia. Feel free to elaborate theories about the Alliance, Chamber, Ledo and the world he comes from, how the Earth could experience an ice age and then become a water world... and so on.

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LKK 2013-04-25 17:03

Do you think the Alliance has faster than light (FTL) technology?*

I ask because having FTL technology is crucial to how soon or even if Ledo could expect a rescue. In episode 1, we saw the Alliance use what looked like an artificially generated wormhole to reach the Hidxxx stronghold. No FTL tech evident there as far as I could tell. But without FTL communication technology, Ledo's distress signal may not even reach the Alliance within his lifetime.

I know this is anime, and science logic doesn't always apply. But the series has done a good job so far of convincing me that the writers care about science. Which makes me wonder just what they're going to do about the fact that Earth is so far from Alliance territory that Chamber couldn't identify their location on his star charts.

* Let's pretend that FTL is somehow possible, okay? :D

Jan-Poo 2013-04-25 17:40

So basically you are asking if they can achieve FTL locally?

Else the exploitation of wormholes can lead to an effective FTL travel without breaking the theory of relativity.

There is no evidence that they can surpass the speed of light with their engines, but since they have wormhole technology is that even necessary? They can still beat light in speed by taking the shortcuts the wormholes provide.

Their communication devices most likely use the same wormhole technology on a lesser scale. A black hole can be as little as an electron including its event horizon. I wouldn't put past them to have black holes in their radio devices.

LKK 2013-04-25 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo (Post 4653310)
Their communication devices most likely use the same wormhole technology on a lesser scale. A black hole can be as little as an electron including its event horizon. I wouldn't put past them to have black holes in their radio devices.

The communication devices are what I'm primarily interested in at the moment. Without something, Ledo's distress signal probably wouldn't reach the Alliance within his lifetime. I hadn't thought of the possibility of lesser scale wormhole technology. I'll have to consider the implications of that. Thanks!

Edit: Forgot to say that I agree wormhole technology makes FTL unnecessary.

Endless Knackwurst 2013-04-25 18:43

Is there any source material out there regarding the mechanism that Chamber uses to levitate? Gravity manipulation of some sort would seem to be the most handwavish answer.

Jan-Poo 2013-04-25 19:04

I might be mistaken but that floater ball screams "gravity control" to me, besides I think that creating wormholes necessarily requires gravity manipulation technology.

However... Avalon is composed of several colonies disposed around rotating circles. This seems to imply that rather than artificial gravity they use the centrifugal force to simulate gravity.

Of course since this is decidedly more cost-efficient it might simply mean that they'd rather not waste energy if they can.

Algent 2013-04-26 11:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo (Post 4653310)
I wouldn't put past them to have black holes in their radio devices.

If they had that or quantum entanglement based communications there is now way Red would have lost contact with Avalon.

TimeSkip 2013-04-26 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algent (Post 4654668)
If they had that or quantum entanglement based communications there is now way Red would have lost contact with Avalon.

There is one possibility. Avalon is not where it's used to be.

Their all all out attack failed miserably. They may have been fleeing from the Hideauze.

willyvereb 2013-04-27 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algent (Post 4654668)
If they had that or quantum entanglement based communications there is now way Red would have lost contact with Avalon.

Well, even those are pretty useless if you don't know the position of the one you'd want to contact.

I mean it's like shooting into the dark.
Even though you have a theoretical rifle that can instantly send bullets anywhere you want, it's useless unless you know the location of the target.

Same with wormhole-based communication.
Radio-waves spread at near lightspeed.
Which is insufficient to cross interstellar distances under a short time.
So the wormhole channels probably only useful up to the range of a few lightseconds.
Now, the Milky Way Galaxy is at least 100 million lightyears wide.
Randomly pasting through the entire thing would take an eternity of time.

Remember that the Galactic Alliance no longer knows the location of the Earth.
Same goes in reverse.
If Ledo is on Earth he has no way to know the location of Avalon.
Not to mention that Avalon is most likely on a constant move.
There's also the possibility that this "wormhole communication" has a certain range, a maximum distance for the wormholes' exit to reach. With the Alliance's forces being out of this range.

And of course this theorizes the Galactic Human Alliance uses wormhole based communication in the first place.
We just don't know anything about their communication aside from apparently that working FTL.

Jan-Poo 2013-04-27 16:24

Hey, the Milky Way is 100-120 thousands lightyears wide let's not exaggerate!

In addition I don't believe that they don't know where Earth is to begin with, because apparently Chamber had in his database enough information to determine they were on earth simply observing the sky. As long as the alliance has a map of the milky way and info of how the sky looked from Earth they should be able to determine Earth's position, no matter where they are.

And let's even say that somehow they lost the info of Earth's position and of the sky map as it could be seen from there while still having the info on the solar system itself, Chamber should still be able to determine his location observing the sky, provided that he has a map of the milky way.


Moreover a hypothetical wormhole communication technology would imply that the entrance and exit of the "tunnel" are already connected to begin with and that they remain constantly connected. It doesn't matter where you go, as long as the "thread" that ties the two wormholes isn't cut you should be able to communicate even if you don't know each other's positions.

apotheosis 2013-04-28 00:24

Actually, based on our current understanding spooky action at a distance (quantam entanglement) would imply you do NOT need to know where the other "side" is. Of course its all theoretical.

I don't recall any FTL comm though? All of the communications were ship to ship in the battle as far I remember.

MeoTwister5 2013-04-28 04:29

So I was wondering... considering that the bio luminescent algal blooms on the surface of the oceans apparently generate enough energy to help power the ships and propel them forward, it might not be a stretch to imagine that Chamber can devise a way to get energy from such a power source.

taofd 2013-04-29 06:52

You guys seem to be missing an important point regarding locating Ledo.

Why would they even be searching for him? They probably assumed he was KIA. Not to mention, the way their the GA is structured, there is no reason for them to expend so much energy in finding one individual.

Jan-Poo 2013-04-29 07:26

The problem is not that they aren't coming, the problem is that they aren't answering.

There doesn't seem to be a logical reason as to why they shouldn't answer to his distress call. They really aren't the kind of people that would rather not hurt his feelings by telling him "sorry we decided to leave you there".

Ledo has actually some important information to tell them. If they simply decided to ignore him, then they are just stupid.

ReddyRedWolf 2013-04-29 10:23

Interesting tidbit from the doctor Ledo talked to. He seems to imply at least before Earthers and Spacers parted ways they had Artificial Intelligences but they lost the technology due to the collapse of civilization. I'm not sure if it is historical accurate or not but it is plausible.

Which begs the question if there is some preserved AI on Earth waiting to be activated.

MeisterBabylon 2013-04-30 09:36

CHAMBER IS AWESOME.

Or maybe the suit is awesome.

BUT WHATEVER! Countless defense scientists would massecre for even 1% of his capabilities. Best of all, Chamber is advanced enough for me to wonder just how on Earth does his weapons function?

Which then puts into perspective, that all that technology... couldn't best the Flower Tyranids Hideauze. :p

Endless Soul 2013-04-30 09:56

So....just how do organic creatures move around in space?

Endless "Space farts" Soul

Jan-Poo 2013-04-30 10:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Endless Soul (Post 4659959)
So....just how do organic creatures move around in space?

Endless "Space farts" Soul

Now that's actually a very good question.
We see the machine calibers moving around a planet in a very short time and the snails follow them.
They must have been traveling at several thousand Km/hr.
I can only speculate that they have some kind of space distortion ability or gravity manipulation. Propulsion is out of the question, we didn't see any kind of discharge and it would be decidedly impractical for biological beings.

Endless Knackwurst 2013-05-02 10:07

Meanwhile, on reddit, this conveniently-timed question about the weather on a planet that is all ocean.

mikeomni 2013-05-03 09:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo (Post 4653409)
I might be mistaken but that floater ball screams "gravity control" to me, besides I think that creating wormholes necessarily requires gravity manipulation technology.

However... Avalon is composed of several colonies disposed around rotating circles. This seems to imply that rather than artificial gravity they use the centrifugal force to simulate gravity.

Of course since this is decidedly more cost-efficient it might simply mean that they'd rather not waste energy if they can.

The floater ball reminds me of micro-black hole propulsion they use in Ian Douglas' Star Carrier series. The visible ball and rings are probably the containment field and inside they turn it off and on to change direction. It would need a pretty advanced AI to steer the thing, hence Chamber.

Weren't they trying to make some with the LHC? MC must have insane batteries if it's running on reserve power.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algent (Post 4654668)
If they had that or quantum entanglement based communications there is now way Red would have lost contact with Avalon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by apotheosis (Post 4656729)
Actually, based on our current understanding spooky action at a distance (quantam entanglement) would imply you do NOT need to know where the other "side" is. Of course its all theoretical.

I don't recall any FTL comm though? All of the communications were ship to ship in the battle as far I remember.

If the technology is similar to other popular fiction, it's probably not quantum entanglement since it's supposed to not be affected by distance or location. If they're doing it like Stargate, you send the radio signal through the wormhole to the other side. If there are no relays where it exits or a break in the chain to the repeaters the Alliance might not get the signal.

I still wonder how Chamber can't get a fix on his location. He has enough data to identify the elements of the solar system. I guess if you go far enough across the galaxy, the stars you thought were still there being viewed from a spiral arm might have long been gone when you get to the actual location. So you might be constantly navigating on local group stars. If the FTL technology is wormholes and these are not moving, that would be your fixed point, so an accurate/up to date star map from any direction is less important. Chamber would have to do some fancy long simulations to extrapolate his location. The stars he knows might be very faint wherever the Sun is in the galaxy.


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