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-   -   about visual novels...am I crazy? (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=122003)

pisceanreve 2013-09-22 21:01

about visual novels...am I crazy?
 
So everyone is absolutely raving about Ever17 and Fate/Stay Night as I'm looking at multiple forums for recommendations. To be honest, I was totally disappointed by Fate. Also, the hentai scene was really awkward and Rin, who I thought to be a great character, suddenly went way OOC there and it completely brought down my respect for the game a good portion.
Ever17 was interesting though I eventually got bored as I neared the You good ending (and I have to play through four endings to get the "real" plotline/ending or whatever) and I googled a synopsis. Interesting concept, but I don't understand why
people think it is the most amazing VN.
Sorry for the rambling -_-
Does anyone agree with me on any of these opinions?

Fireminer 2013-09-22 22:01

Well, I agree with you on some points. Still think "Fate/" series is great, but of course there are hole in it. Don't know much about Ever17, though.

Maybe you should try Age's product like Muv-Luv (Guarantee the awesome) and Kimi ga Nozomu Eien (A wonderful love story).

pisceanreve 2013-09-22 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fireminer (Post 4841978)
Well, I agree with you on some points. Still think "Fate/" series is great, but of course there are hole in it. Don't know much about Ever17, though.

Maybe you should try Age's product like Muv-Luv (Guarantee the awesome) and Kimi ga Nozomu Eien (A wonderful love story).

ahhh I tried to install Muv-Luv like 50 times and it just wouldn't work! sob sob cry
Oh well, I'll just have to come back to it later....
For now, I'm downloading Rewrite, which has gotten great reviews.
My favourites of all time are Little Busters and G-Senjou no Maou for completely different reasons lol

Fireminer 2013-09-22 23:32

Ever think about a PSP version? Or PS3?

Dark Faith 2013-09-23 11:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by pisceanreve (Post 4841913)
So everyone is absolutely raving about Ever17 and Fate/Stay Night as I'm looking at multiple forums for recommendations. To be honest, I was totally disappointed by Fate. Also, the hentai scene was really awkward and Rin, who I thought to be a great character, suddenly went way OOC there and it completely brought down my respect for the game a good portion.
Does anyone agree with me on any of these opinions?

I typically skip H-Scenes 'cause, from experience, most of the time they serve as fanservice and don't offer much in terms of story progression.
I guess at least Sakura's in Heaven's Feel had some meaning, but I skipped them nonetheless :heh:

I think Fate/ is a pretty good VN, all things considered. Not sure if I'd put it in the "Very best out there" list though.

Never heard of Ever17.. might give that one a shot and comment on it (much) later.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Fireminer (Post 4841978)
Maybe you should try Age's product like Muv-Luv (Guarantee the awesome)

Do you recommend playing through Muv-Luv, or jump straight to Alternative? I ask this because I tried playing the first one, and that highschool setting was very underwhelming.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pisceanreve (Post 4842065)
For now, I'm downloading Rewrite, which has gotten great reviews.

I think you'll enjoy that one. One of the best VNs I've played recently, even with its flaws.

Fireminer 2013-09-23 17:18

Well, could just jump straight to Unlimited, Alternative or Total Eclipse. But for fan like me, I enjoy everything in line!

Jan-Poo 2013-09-23 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by pisceanreve (Post 4841913)
So everyone is absolutely raving about Ever17 and Fate/Stay Night as I'm looking at multiple forums for recommendations. To be honest, I was totally disappointed by Fate. Also, the hentai scene was really awkward and Rin, who I thought to be a great character, suddenly went way OOC there and it completely brought down my respect for the game a good portion.
Ever17 was interesting though I eventually got bored as I neared the You good ending (and I have to play through four endings to get the "real" plotline/ending or whatever) and I googled a synopsis. Interesting concept, but I don't understand why
people think it is the most amazing VN.
Sorry for the rambling -_-
Does anyone agree with me on any of these opinions?

Personally I think that Fate/Stay Night's storytelling is mediocre/poor with a lot of clichee and plot armors, the way certain characters turn from overpowering killing machines to almost weaklings or how mere humans stand their ground against servants through a series of struck of luck or plain idiocy from the servants' part jarred me to no end. Moreover the novel is full of inane fluff to increase the length and the dialogues aren't of my liking.
But that apart there are several interesting ideas and several interesting characters, and at least the novel gives a proper closure to any single dangling plots, which is something that I very much appreciate.
That being said I'd take Fate/Zero over Fate/Stay Night any day, it's like having all the great ideas from the original Fate but executed by a writer that actually knows how to write a good a story.

Oh, the hentai scenes in Fate/Stay Night? I think that they're only there so that you could label the VN as an eroge and nothing else. Funnily enough the anime's versions of those parts make a lot more sense to me.


Regarding Ever17 I'm among those who think it's a very amazing VN. I think that the major point that make people consider it a masterpiece are:

1) The particularly extreme situations of the characters and the way they are presented.
2) The particularly complicated plot and the careful, meticulous planning.
3) The way the story tricks the reader through a typical VN convention (whoever played it should know what I mean).

Now if you found it boring that's a simple matter of taste unless you can tell what is objectively boring according to you. Personally I found the narration and the dialogues a lot less boring than several other VNs I read. At the very least there aren't many "filling" with not other purpose than increase the length of the "game" which many VNs are unfortunately ridden with. And there aren't even the exaggerated amount of flashbacks that totally plague Muv Luv Alternative.

That being said there are some minor bad points in Ever17 in my opinion. The whole "supernatural" stuff that resolves the situation (No I refuse to consider that scientific in any way) wasn't quite of my liking and certain stuff requires a bit of a stretch to be accepted.

Anyway just for a reference what is a VN that you definitely didn't consider boring? It might help to understand your tastes and what to suggest to you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Faith (Post 4842613)
Do you recommend playing through Muv-Luv, or jump straight to Alternative? I ask this because I tried playing the first one, and that highschool setting was very underwhelming.

I guess that with all those flashbacks you can safely play Alternative without missing anything but personally I'd still play Extra and Unlimited first doing just the Meiya and Sumika route (the others aren't that good, especially the Chizuru route!) and then skip all the flashbacks when playing Alternative (unless you really die to hear takeru's voice). Yeah Extra is mediocre at best and Unlimited is better but far from being exceptional however they are kinda needed to fully appreciate the rest in my opinion. That is if you feel you can commit yourself that much.

TheFluff 2013-09-23 22:34

Visual novels are basically young adult fiction in terrible packaging. The prose is usually pretty bad even in Japanese (especially if it's written by Nasu, who wrote F/SN) and the translations tends to mangle it towards utterly unreadable. If you really really really enjoy juvenile anime plots and want them to be unbearably dragged out for a million words (people tend to talk about how just how incredibly fucking wordy visual novels are as if it was an accomplishment; I believe I've heard people smugly claim F/SN is longer than the collected works of Shakespeare, which is ironic since after all he's the one who said "brevity is the soul of wit") then visual novels will be just the thing for you. If not, you should really save your time and go check out a regular thriller or romance novel at your local library.

Jan-Poo 2013-09-23 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFluff (Post 4843246)
Visual novels are basically young adult fiction in terrible packaging. The prose is usually pretty bad even in Japanese and the translations tends to mangle it towards utterly unreadable. If you really really really enjoy juvenile anime plots and want them to be unbearably dragged out for a million words (people tend to talk about how just how incredibly fucking wordy visual novels are as if it was an accomplishment; I believe I've heard people smugly claim F/SN is longer than the collected works of Shakespeare, which would insult the bard terribly, since after all he's the one who said "brevity is the soul of wit") then visual novels will be just the thing for you, but if not, you should really save your time and go check a regular thriller or romance novel at your local library.

I think the length as a positive factor is derived from video game standards.

VNs are substantially branching off from adventure games and are still considered "games" even if some of them have completely lost any "gaming" aspect.

Now for games length is an important factor because it tells the costumers how long they can derive entertainment from the product before having to buy another, which in turns justifies the generally high price.

The problem is that quantity doesn't always equal quality. And adding more stuff to read doesn't work as well as adding more gameplay.
2 liters of wine are better than 1 liter of wine but 2 liters of wine mixed with water is just bad and a fraud too.

Perhaps when the producers and the costumers will realize that VNs aren't games anymore they will also realize that length isn't something that should be considered a positive factor in itself.

0utf0xZer0 2013-09-23 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by pisceanreve (Post 4841913)
Ever17 was interesting though I eventually got bored as I neared the You good ending (and I have to play through four endings to get the "real" plotline/ending or whatever) and I googled a synopsis. Interesting concept, but I don't understand why people think it is the most amazing VN.

Hate to say it but you really did just spoil yourself. The moment where one of the major subplots "clicked" for me in the final arc was one of the most memorable fiction-related moments in my life, the kind of thing that only comes along ever few years.

I'd have to say for me personally that and the immensely satisfying ending explain a lot about why I love the game so much. I actually agree that unlocking the true path gets to be a bit of a chore after a bit, even for an experience VN player like me..

@Jan-Poo: Being a busy person I'm not a fan of stories that endlessly drag on, but I tend to get much, much more invested in VNs than stories told as anime or manga, and I'd tend to credit the slower paced, more introspective nature of the format with some of that.

Or maybe it is just that length allows me to get immersed, padded or not. The only conventional computer game I've gotten as invested in as a VN in recent memory was Dragon Age: Origins and I clocked more hours in that than any VN I've played.:heh: Might have had trouble finishing it if not for the fact I had like a month before the job I had lined up started at the time. In contrast, VNs I've often had to balance with classes or other obligations - I usually tell people that if they want me to play a particularly VN, don't emphasize it will take me 50 hours to complete. Because that makes me less likely to start.:heh:

TheFluff 2013-09-23 23:34

DA:O has actual gameplay, though. Unlike visual novels, which are just illustrated novels with a lot of annoying clicking.

Fireminer 2013-09-24 05:26

Well, that is the point! VN is somewhat similar to these old "Choose your Adventure" books!

Om Nerabdator 2013-09-24 05:41

Ever17, got bored of this real quick, done 2-3 routes and i couldnt find it in myself to play the rest.
Fate/stay, the UBW route was awesome, but all the Sakura rape in it made me sick to my stomach, i think shinji even kidnapped the leader of the archery club for a couple of days and raped her...........really brought down the whole game for me.
So far the best eroge game ive played has to be Edelweiss by a mile

Cosmic Eagle 2013-09-24 05:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFluff (Post 4843246)
Visual novels are basically young adult fiction in terrible packaging. The prose is usually pretty bad even in Japanese (especially if it's written by Nasu, who wrote F/SN) and the translations tends to mangle it towards utterly unreadable. If you really really really enjoy juvenile anime plots and want them to be unbearably dragged out for a million words (people tend to talk about how just how incredibly fucking wordy visual novels are as if it was an accomplishment; I believe I've heard people smugly claim F/SN is longer than the collected works of Shakespeare, which is ironic since after all he's the one who said "brevity is the soul of wit") then visual novels will be just the thing for you. If not, you should really save your time and go check out a regular thriller or romance novel at your local library.

I would say you haven't read the really good ones out there but meh...

And for the record, Mushroom's stuff isn't "good" more as "read it for what it is if you enjoy that kind of stuff." His plots seem to go downhill from when he first started. So yeah...using him as a yardstick is quite...<__<

chaos_alfa 2013-09-24 08:23

If you want to play a good visual novel I recommend trying Higurashi no Naku Koro Ni. You can by the official English translated version at MangaGamer.com. If you are willing to wait you will be able to buy it on Steam with an improved translation.

Saya no Uta is another great visual novel. It is written by Urobuchi Gen and you can buy it at JASTUSA.com.

Triple_R 2013-09-24 08:53

I've only tried playing/reading a couple visual novels (G Senjou and Umineko), and yeah, they are loooong.

The sense I get from most VN fans is that the final chapters of the better VNs tend to be exceptionally good, and that may well be true, but my own experience is that getting there is a real slog. I just didn't have the patience for it. I think these VNs would be a lot better if they streamlined the narrative, and cut down on the padding.

I get the appeal of VNs - Most are romance simulators and I can't think of anything that captures that romance simulation as well as VNs do. I think that whoever came up with this entertainment medium was very inspired and creative. But the medium itself is not maximized to its full potential. It would benefit from more actual choices, giving a greater sense of interactivity. It's too much novel, and not enough game, imo.

erneiz_hyde 2013-09-24 09:08

This thread is rather puzzling.

It's on Suggestions but is not particularly asking for one as far as I can tell, with the content seemingly suited for the already existing General Eroge Impressions and Discussions thread (though it seems this made some people usually unseen in that thread to appear).

Fate was heavy in chuunibyou and that genre tends to choose its audience. I didn't know that Ever17 was titled the most amazing VN ever and I kinda disagree with that, but it IS a good VN nonetheless.

NoemiChan 2013-09-24 09:32

We should make a "What you hate about VNs and Eroges Thread". It like hate versus like here already. hehehe

Qilin 2013-09-24 09:56

The thing about Ever 17 is that the first four routes aren't too interesting. Or rather, they're way too similar to each other before they branch off, but not before dragging out the exact same scenes all over again with little to no variation.

On the other hand, the final route blows everything out of the water. It's where everything somehow goes full circle. It's not an experience that can be captured with just reading spoilers, which tell very little as to how the realizations come about. Of course, there's no way I'd call it the best given the flaws I already mentioned. It's still pretty good though.

Cosmic Eagle 2013-09-24 10:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde (Post 4843759)
This thread is rather puzzling.

It's on Suggestions but is not particularly asking for one as far as I can tell, with the content seemingly suited for the already existing General Eroge Impressions and Discussions thread (though it seems this made some people usually unseen in that thread to appear).

Well that thread's more for those who actually seriously play eroge rather than just the common (ie famous among the english community) ones


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