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-   -   Henge: Genjutsu or Ninjutsu? And Other Thoughts... (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=18589)

fieryshadowcard 2004-08-09 19:15

Henge: Genjutsu or Ninjutsu? And Other Thoughts...
 
This has been bothering me for awhile... is Henge a genjutsu or a ninjutsu? While there are indications that certain techniques serve as both, it seems that Henge is almost always hastily lumped with Genjutsu, as if it's more gen than nin.

Although genjutsu is an illusory form of technique, Henge is still an interactive technique. With Henge, you can take on the form, voice, and properties (if done correctly) of whatever it is you transform into. Kage Bunshin is a ninjutsu that creates actual bodies, but the bodies are still clones that have no permanent attachment to the world. Even so, it is immediately referred to as ninjutsu and never once considered a genjutsu.

I think Henge is a NINjutsu more so than genjutsu because of the simple fact that it allows the caster to interact with things. Naruto can transform into weapons that actually take on the density of the weapon transformed into, and Enma has a form that apparently, only he can make (otherwise, why would Sarutobi waste chakra summoning him?).

I have three theories as to how these situations can occur:

1) In close relation to the concept of the FMA world, a person can only transform into something so long as they have sufficient mass to do so (Gama Bunta being large enough to form a Red-Chakra-less Kyuubi... Naruto being capable of condensing himself to form a shuriken, etc.)

or

2) It's Chakra-based. Depending on the amount of Chakra you use, you can actually make something larger or smaller. Of course, this still doesn't explain why ENMA of all summons was necessary for the Free-Forming Pole...

so, that leaves:

3) In accordance with ninja theory (I use 'ninja theory' as a term to indicate what we've seen in the Naruto world...as shown in the academy by Naruto's poor transformation into the Third), you have to have complete knowledge of whatever it is you transform (joint Henge) or transform into (regular Henge). If Enma is the only one who knows the actual properties of the pole, or if he's been developing a form with those properties, then it would make sense that he is the only one who can transform into it.

This is just food for thought. However, such a versatile technique seems a bit too advanced for genins, don't you think?

-Yusef "The B.A.T." Pittman

Hunter 2004-08-09 19:44

Yeah the Henge is a Ninjutsu, its effect is real.

Quote:

This is just food for thought. However, such a versatile technique seems a bit too advanced for genins, don't you think?
Extremely powerful if well used, i still wait for a ninja using the Henge on particular part of his body, that could be deadliest.

Rurouni Zeke 2004-08-09 19:46

I personally think it is ninjutsu. Genjutsu is illusion, but as you said, the things formed with Henge can interact directly with the environment. Consider Itachi's little exchange with Kurenai. She used pain to escape an illusion of a tree holding her. However, if Itachi had used Kage Bunshin, then used Henge to make that tree to hold Kurenai (not saying that Itachi can in fact use Henge to make a tree), all the pain in the world wouldn't have gotten her out of it.

Shadamehr 2004-08-09 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter
Yeah the Henge is a Ninjutsu, its effect is real.


Extremely powerful if well used, i still wait for a ninja using the Henge on particular part of his body, that could be deadliest.

I'm guessing that's probably not possible. So far, all Henges have been into objects that the caster's have seen before. They probably can't make up imaginary "4-armed ninja with swords for hands" forms.

Spoiler:

Genei Killua 2004-08-09 20:18

Sexy no jutsu isn't a woman Naruto's ever seen. Come to think of it, Henge could be a really awesome jutsu were a person to really try to perfect it. It'd be just like materialization from HxH. If you see Itachi punching at you, henge large spikes around you. (sorta like Jiraiya's underworld spikes.)

Sai 2004-08-09 21:00

there must be some rule we don't know about considering henge, there's no reason people wouldnt be transforming into all those cool things so there must be some unexplained limit. :confused:

Genei Killua 2004-08-09 21:11

Um, lack of imagination?

At least there is one ninja who has not let henge go to waste. Yes, you're right, that ninja is none other than Uzumaki Naruto. He wasted a hokage in 2 seconds flat.

snakespm 2004-08-09 21:25

I never understood how trusting the ninjas are in everyday life. I know for a fact that if I was in a culture in which anyone can look like anyone else i would be incredibly paranoid.

Rurouni Zeke 2004-08-09 21:39

^^ Roflmao

Kiya 2004-08-09 23:18

(Please excuse my run-on sentance)
If you transformed your arm into a sword or something, maybe because of the way the circulatory system works, since a part of the arm would be completely metal, than the blood in the area of the veins immediately before it would have no where to go and build up. I don't know much about biology but I doubt that that would be healthy.

It could also be an all-or-nothing thing. That would explain why we only ever see the entire body being transformed.

snakespm 2004-08-09 23:43

i guess in theory if you can change your body part into a sword, it should be possible to redirect blood flow away by manipulating the blood vessels.

however i am led to believe that it is an all or nothing thing as well.

also i have one problem with the theory that they have to have seen it in order to do a henge of it. since i am not sure if this would be a spoiler or not i am going to err on the side of caution

Spoiler:

Genei Killua 2004-08-09 23:57

But if you changed your entire body into a sword, then how would you be alive? How would you have consciousness? How would you be able to form chakra? Obviously, you are not actually entirely turned into a reallife sword, or none of those things could take place.

fieryshadowcard 2004-08-09 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by snakespm
i guess in theory if you can change your body part into a sword, it should be possible to redirect blood flow away by manipulating the blood vessels.

however i am led to believe that it is an all or nothing thing as well.

also i have one problem with the theory that they have to have seen it in order to do a henge of it. since i am not sure if this would be a spoiler or not i am going to err on the side of caution

Spoiler:

You're forgetting one other pivotal moment where he actually saw the Kyuubi... without this moment, he'd have been dead before he almost lost to Neji or almost got killed by Gaara.

Hunter 2004-08-10 00:06

When Naruto used the Henge along with Gamabunta it wasn't the nine tails in the manga but a simple fox, the anime added the 8 others tails.

Ogata 2004-08-10 00:10

well u have to fink that sexy/harem no jutsu is a genjutsu now eh??
lol
huge illusion technique there
=p

byakurasengan 2004-08-10 00:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter
When Naruto used the Henge along with Gamabunta it wasn't the nine tails in the manga but a simple fox, the anime added the 8 others tails.

maybe to exaggerate, i presume? :confused: :confused:

Zek 2004-08-10 00:18

Well, even if they can't mix metal and flesh, why couldn't someone henge
Spoiler for Manga:

Or flexible limbs like the guy in the Chuunin Exam Prelims? Even if we are to believe that henge can't be held in combat, hasn't anyone ever thought of transforming into a smaller object to dodge blows or something?

byakurasengan 2004-08-10 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zek
Well, even if they can't mix metal and flesh, why couldn't someone henge
Spoiler for Manga:

Or flexible limbs like the guy in the Chuunin Exam Prelims? Even if we are to believe that henge can't be held in combat, hasn't anyone ever thought of transforming into a smaller object to dodge blows or something?

simply because its a bloodline limit.. and maybe naruto characters cant henge only a part of their body because kishimoto made it so....? :confused: :heh:

fieryshadowcard 2004-08-10 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter
When Naruto used the Henge along with Gamabunta it wasn't the nine tails in the manga but a simple fox, the anime added the 8 others tails.

*jaw drops* You've gotta be kidding me...? :twitch: Well, that explains Sasuke saying kitsune as opposed to Kyuubi when Naruto did Henge (since even the village children have heard of Kyuubi).... Of all the manga chapters I've looked at after seeing the anime, I sure picked a fine one to overlook. But if Kishimoto only wanted a regular fox, why would he have Naruto transform every other feature of the Kyuubi's except for the tails? If Kishimoto's not amazing me, he's confusing me. *sigh*

-Yusef "The B.A.T." Pittman

raikage 2004-08-10 03:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by fieryshadowcard
Of course, this still doesn't explain why ENMA of all summons was necessary for the Free-Forming Pole...

Chinese legend of the Monkey King - an immortal monkey hero whose trademark weapon is a staff that expands/contracts at will.


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