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Reticent 2004-10-14 08:48

CNN article about manga censorship
 
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapc...eut/index.html

'Rape of Nanjing' comic draws ire

Thursday, October 14, 2004 Posted: 1:23 AM EDT (0523 GMT)

TOKYO, Japan (Reuters) -- A Japanese publisher will suspend a comic series in its popular weekly magazine after receiving angry protests over its characterization of the 1937 "Rape of Nanjing," in which Japanese soldiers brutally massacred Chinese civilians.

Tokyo-based Shueisha Inc received nearly 200 angry phone calls and letters protesting its portrayal of scenes of the killings in its comic "Kuni ga Moeru" (The Country is Burning), published on September 22, a company spokesman said on Thursday.

"We have received suggestions and protests from people from all walks of life including local politicians," said a company spokesman.

"There were inappropriate parts and we decided to suspend the comic series for the time being."

Japanese politicians have often incurred Beijing's wrath by challenging China's account of the massacre, called the Rape of Nanjing, in which Beijing says as many as 300,000 Chinese men, women and children were slaughtered by rampaging Japanese troops in the former Chinese capital.

The 1948 Tokyo war crimes tribunal found Japanese troops killed 155,000 in Nanjing, mainly women and children.

The comic series, featuring the life of a Japanese bureaucrat in the tumultuous times of the early 20th century, had been carried by popular Weekly Young Jump.

The Shueisha spokesman said about 2 million copies of the magazine had been sold each week.

A group of 37 members of local assemblies protested to the publisher earlier this month, arguing that the Rape of Nanjing had never taken place and that the depiction of the scene in the comic distorted history.

The publisher plans to change or delete some parts of the comic when it publishes the series in book form, the spokesman said, without elaborating.

Japan-China relations remain bedevilled by the two nations' wartime past. China suffered from Japanese military aggression in the 1930s and 1940s.

Bilateral ties have been further strained by Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi's annual visits to Tokyo's Yasukuni Shrine, which honors war criminals along with other war dead.

Koizumi has visited the shrine each year since taking office in 2001, most recently on New Year's Day, a visit condemned by China and South Korea, also a victim of Japan's wartime aggression.

Baba 2004-10-14 13:54

It always amazes me how the reactions for WWII in both China and Japan are strange, especially compared to us occidental.
I mean, in europe, you can ask most anybody about WWII and, except for a few extremists, you'll get pretty much the same answer ie "Yes the Nazis were bad, the german atone, and for instance we french aren't too proud either of what happened in our country and we reckon that there were a lot of bad things going on...". I don't feel like extending on the subect, but the thing is that the act have been recognized and the moral responsibilites acknowledged be it by politicains or your average Joe.
On the other hand, if you ask a Japanese out of the blue his though about WWII you'll probably never get a frank and honest "Yes we did bad things, we attone", either they won't say anything or it'll only be about the A bomb. I've never met one that had anything to say about what happend for instance in china. The thing is most of them don't even want to discuss it or really don't know anything about it.
Comming from such a world power, I find it difficult to understand, be it the politicians that try to change history or cover up facts or the citizens who just don't seem to care one way or the other.

:topicoff: You'll get the same kind of no-reaction if you try to get a discussion going on the subject of death penality. Once again no heated deabet or formed opinion like you can find in the US. Just ignorance and lack of interest.


Very sad IMO, japanese people should get more political and watch out for what their leaders are trying to do.

USCPharmacist 2004-10-14 22:59

Denial can mean they never except the facts they lost. Given the opportunity, the Japanese may try that crap again. Luckly now the Chinese at the moment should be strong enough to repell them.

I may like anime, but I'll not forgive what the Japanese did if they refuse to repent.

Sokar 2004-10-14 23:40

Japan's current situation reminds me a lot of post WWI Germany , where the sentiment was that the only thing we did wrong was that we lost. Actually, now that I think about it, it's a lot like post WWI Germany. They have the depression/recession thing going, people are unhappy, disillusioned, and they want a strong leader that can push reforms as the damned parliament can't get anything done. I wonder if we'll see a Japanese Hitler in the coming years.

Keitaro 2004-10-14 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by USCPharmacist
Luckily now the Chinese at the moment should be strong enough to repell them.

No kidding they got the A bomb now and they have more then a million soldiers in standby who in their right mind would mess with them now. :)

Quote:

I may like anime, but I'll not forgive what the Japanese did if they refuse to repent.
Well as I see its all in the past. Today's generation is different from then why should the Japanese people and other countries who have committed horrible crimes in the past apologize for something their generation had nothing to do with. I'm part Chinese and I'm sad about what happened to the Chinese people during WWII but I don't blame the Japanese people today. The Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, so what. I and the people of Hawaii don't hold any resentment towards them for that. :heh: Now we have thousands of Japanese tourists visiting the Arizona Memorial every day, ironic isn't it.

dreamless 2004-10-15 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keitaro
Well as I see its all in the past. Today's generation is different from then why should the Japanese people and other countries who have committed horrible crimes in the past apologize for something their generation had nothing to do with. I'm part Chinese and I'm sad about what happened to the Chinese people during WWII but I don't blame the Japanese people today. The Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, so what. I and the people of Hawaii don't hold any resentment towards them for that. :heh: now we have thousands of Japanese tourists visiting the Arizona Memorial every day, ironic isn't it.

well, I agree with the "get over the past and face the future" attitude. However the problem here is not rather people asking the Japanese' apology, but some Japanese try to say there's was no Nanking Massacre in history. So if anyone is not getting over the past, it's those Japanese right wing extremists. I myself don't really agree with some Asians' attitude (like from some left wing extremists) like every single Japanese owes them because of WW2, but now it's some Japanese who feel like they have to bring up the history about WW2 again and again and try to say things like the Nanking Massacre doesn't exist and/or Japan was not the wrong side in WW2, and when something happens to depict the truth of the past, they feel the need to erase it, and that becomes a problem.

If some Japanese right wing extremists feel like they can't accept the truth of the past and get over it, it's their problem. And if they feel like they have to "correct" the history their way, and erase anything leading to the truth of the past, we shouldn't let them do that. To get over the past, the first step is to accept the truth of the past. I don't think someone who always refuse to accept history can truly "get over the past", they are just trying to escape the reality. :rolleyes:

Quote:

Japan's current situation reminds me a lot of post WWI Germany , where the sentiment was that the only thing we did wrong was that we lost. Actually, now that I think about it, it's a lot like post WWI Germany. They have the depression/recession thing going, people are unhappy, disillusioned, and they want a strong leader that can push reforms as the damned parliament can't get anything done. I wonder if we'll see a Japanese Hitler in the coming years.
I really hope that's not what's happening in Japan... sure that China has nuclear weapons now, but Japan also has enough nuclear capability and some Japanese outright say that currently they don't have nuclear weapons only because they don't want to make them, and if they want to, they can make them anytime. And a lot of Asian countries don't have any nuclear capability neither... so we can only hope US or China can intervene for us if something bad happens :eek:

R-S-W-E 2004-10-15 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sokar
Japan's current situation reminds me a lot of post WWI Germany , where the sentiment was that the only thing we did wrong was that we lost. Actually, now that I think about it, it's a lot like post WWI Germany. They have the depression/recession thing going, people are unhappy, disillusioned, and they want a strong leader that can push reforms as the damned parliament can't get anything done. I wonder if we'll see a Japanese Hitler in the coming years.

argh man... what are you talking about? Do you know how strong the Japan economy was after the WW2? Ya of course there's that Asian economic crisis around 10 years go, but now the Japan economy is recovering.

Japan do not have enough military power to invade other countries nowadays... (especially China)~~ they are also too dependent on import. (hm, unless they got backing up by US :twitch: OR, they have developed Mobile Suits like Gundam!!! :bash: )

From what I heard, Japanese government doesn't teach their citizens much about the crimes they have made in WW2 (if you ever get a middle school Japanese history book, check it out).

As a Chinese (though i am a Canadian citizen :D), this is what i think: ya, anime is cool, manga is cool. If they don' t (want to) learn the history, fine. But if they are ever PROUD about what they done in WW2 or still think other Asians are "low-level" humans, I will have to say: " well, f__k you, you just made a huge enemy, which is your ignorant self."

Keitaro 2004-10-15 00:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamless
well, I agree with the "get over the past and face the future" attitude. However the problem here is not rather people asking the Japanese' apology, but some Japanese try to say there's was no Nanking Massacre in history. So if anyone is not getting over the past, it's those Japanese right wing extremists. I myself don't really agree with some Asians' attitude (like from some left wing extremists) like every single Japanese owes them because of WW2, but now it's some Japanese who feel like they have to bring up the history about WW2 again and again and try to say things like the Nanking Massacre doesn't exist or Japan was not the wrong side in WW2, and when something happens to depict the truth of the past, they feel the need to erase it, and that becomes a problem.

If some Japanese right wing extremists feel like they can't accept the truth of the past and get over it, it's their problem. And if they feel like they have to "correct" the history their way, and erase anything leading to the true past, we shouldn't let them do that. To get over the past, the first step is to accept the truth of the past. I don't think someone who refuse to accept history can truly "get over the past", they are just trying to escape the reality. :rolleyes:


I agree the Japanese people should accept the truth but we have no right to force them to do so. If they want to acknowledge what their people of the past have done then its all good but if they decide they want to completly forget it/deny it then its their choice to do so. From the horrors of WWII I can't blame them for choosing to act like it never happened. Why must we all be stuck on the past. The people who keeps bringing it up should die a million painful deaths. :p

ramune 2004-10-15 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keitaro
I agree the Japanese people should accept the truth but we have no right to force them to do so. If they want to acknowledge what their people of the past have done then its all good but if they decide they want to completly forget it/deny it then its their choice to do so. From the horrors of WWII I can't blame them for choosing to act like it never happened. Why must we all be stuck on the past. The people who keeps bringing it up should die a million painful deaths. :p

I disagree. IMO, history serves as a lesson. The Japanese people need to learn that what their people did in the past is wrong so that history will not repeat itself again. As dreamless mentioned, Japan has the capabilities to develope nuclear weapons, so if they don't realize that waging war is wrong, there's will be no guarantee that they will not do it again.

NoSanninWa 2004-10-15 01:07

Japan realizes that waging war is wrong. I think that they realize that more than any other country on earth. Hiroshima taught them well. That isn't the lesson that they haven't learned from the past.

R-S-W-E 2004-10-15 01:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by ramune
I disagree. IMO, history serves as a lesson. The Japanese people need to learn that what their people did in the past is wrong so that history will not repeat itself again. As dreamless mentioned, Japan has the capabilities to develope nuclear weapons, so if they don't realize that waging war is wrong, there's will be no guarantee that they will not do it again.

using nuke is inefficient strategicaly and econmically...unless they really wanna blow themselves up at the same time~~

using BIO weapon is a much better way to do it~~ hell, they did that in WW2 to Chinese hundred of times... With the bio-tech of nowadays... god, i dont even want to imaging it......

but damn, if they ever do that they will PAY....

heh, let's hope that doesn't happen eh? (but i know there's always a few hardcore Japanese who are willing to do stupid stuff....)

Keitaro 2004-10-15 01:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by ramune
As dreamless mentioned, Japan has the capabilities to develope nuclear weapons, so if they don't realize that waging war is wrong, there's will be no guarantee that they will not do it again.

LOL... I'm pretty sure they know that waging war is not such a good idea ;) and besides Japan's constitution will never let that happen. Ever wonder why Japan still want America's military around. That's because Japan's military forces is really weak against any sort of attack. Their military is mainly for defensive purposes. They wouldn't last a hour if China ever decides to invade.

ramune 2004-10-15 01:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keitaro
and besides Japan's constitution will never let that happen.

Here are two articles I found regarding Japan's constitution over the issue of military
http://www.inq7.net/brk/2004/jun/22/brkafp_2-1.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3561378.stm

Everyone knows that Japan wants to have a larger influence over international issues, and in order to do so, having a military is necessary. Their involvement in Iraq is a great example.

dreamless 2004-10-15 02:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keitaro
LOL... I'm pretty sure they know that waging war is not such a good idea ;) and besides Japan's constitution will never let that happen. Ever wonder why Japan still want America's military around. That's because Japan's military forces is really weak against any sort of attack. Their military is mainly for defensive purposes. They wouldn't last a hour if China ever decides to invade.

Hmm... I think you are overestimating China's military prowess quite a bit while underestimating Japan's a lot. The JSDF Navy is quite strong, while China's Navy's military power mainly lies in its man power, which isn't much when the technology and equipment are so outdated compared to JSDF Navy. I think a study conducted in 2002 concluded that if there is really a war between China's Navy and JSDF Navy, JSDF Navy will more likely come out victorious as there are just too many outdated ships in China's Navy. And land troops won't be of any use if they can't even get to the land. There's no use of having 300 thousands people in the Navy in battle if they don't have proper ships and equipment, except maybe more food to the fish...

And while I don't know whether we have right or not to force the Japanese to accept the truth, they certainly have no right to try to "change the truth". It's those right wing extremists who think they can "correct" the history their way, and those militarists who think the only thing wrong Japan had done in WW2 was losing the war, those kind of stuffs pose problems, and potential dangers in the future.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoSanninWa
Japan realizes that waging war is wrong. I think that they realize that more than any other country on earth. Hiroshima taught them well. That isn't the lesson that they haven't learned from the past.

Well, Hiroshima only taught them that if they are not strong enough, they shouldn't wage wars, else they'll get beaten badly. What Japan should really realize is that waging war in itself is wrong, invading others and stealing lands and resources from them are intrinsically wrong, despite how strong it may become in the future. They should realize (along with all other countries in the world) that even if they have enough power to take over the world, it's still wrong to do so. Hiroshima is more like a "scare lesson", like scaring little kids by beating them up when they do something wrong, for example stealing. But they should realize stealing in itself is wrong. If all they have learned is "if I steal, I get beaten up by Papa", then when they grow up and think "Papa can't beat me now", they'll start stealing again, which will harm both others and themselves.

==========================

EDIT: to the post below : hmm.. yup, I actually think this could be merged with that Zipang and politcs thread, and move the whole thing to general discussion, rename it to something like "politics, manga, anime, WW2, Japan" :innocent: because both threads have not much to do with manga nor anime... and I actually mentioned this piece of news more than a day before CNN in that thread, with links to the original Japanese sites nonetheless :p

Dorfl 2004-10-15 02:27

Excuse me from butting in, but could someone move this to the General section. The discussion doesn't really have anything to do with manga, does it?

Sokar 2004-10-15 03:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by R-S-W-E
argh man... what are you talking about? Do you know how strong the Japan economy was after the WW2? Ya of course there's that Asian economic crisis around 10 years go, but now the Japan economy is recovering.

Japan's economy look strong on the outside after WWII, but the economy's true strength was revealed by the asian economic crisis. The Asian economy crisis which happened 10 years ago caused Japan to undergo A TEN YEAR RECESSION. Some would even call it a depression. Japan's domestic sector is very inefficient, they are(although it's changing) basically socialist where everyone is gurranteed a job(again changing), and people gets into super pointless jobs that doesn't increase efficiency at all. You have people directing you on every turn in a parking lot, even though there are huge signs that tell you where to go. It's like their form of welfare.
Japan is only beginning to recover now, but that's only due to the increased economic power of China, which is bringing Japanese economy up by importing Japanese high tech goods. Without the rapid growth of China Japan's GDP would basically stay still, even shrink after inflation is taking into account.
As for military power China is not that great. China probably can not invade Taiwan successfully unless they use crazy missile attacks. (West Point people said this, not me) Of course that is also due to the U.S. giving the Taiwanese advanced weaponry, but U.S. does that with Japan too. China has a vast number of troops, but the technology is rather poor. Although that could change in 10 years.
(Most of my information came from the Economist or BBC, just in case someone wants to check it out for themselves)

MakubeX2 2004-10-15 03:54

Topics like this can be touchy.....

Refer to this thread to see how things can heat up.....

Baba 2004-10-15 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoSanninWa
Japan realizes that waging war is wrong. I think that they realize that more than any other country on earth. Hiroshima taught them well. That isn't the lesson that they haven't learned from the past.

Sadly, I think that the only thing it taugh them was that doing Nuclear War is wrong, not war in itself. They see themself as victims of a Bomb that shouldn't have been used, not as a power that was badly beaten because it did something it shouldn't have. So in my opinion they missed a big part of the lesson, and those extremists are helping to keep it so.
Moreover, I think such actions as depictited in the article are especially wrong in the light of Japan wanting to join the UN security council. There just seems to be a contrtadiction in a nation that refuses to acknowledge it's past war crime and is still black listed by many human rights organizations for the condition within it's prisons but nonetheless wants to become one of the main member of an organization trying to protect peace, condemn war criminals and uphold human rights....
Well, I know other countries in the security council are far from being perfect themself (Russia for exemple, but the rest too). But Japan should at least do an effort in the right direction when it's actually trying to enter the UN security council.

And to all those saying changing history is not such a big deal, please think again of the consequences of such a things, of the reasons that push people to try and cover up their history and of the potentiality of such history changing if you start doing it. Changing history is recognized as the worst act of propaganda and desinformation that one could ever comit, maybe along with book burning, so don't tell me there's nothing wrong with it :argue:.

Newprimus 2004-10-15 05:34

If I understand correctly, the Japanese as a culture greatly value their image, so if that's taken into consideration, their whole denial thing isn't too hard to understand.

Access 2004-10-15 06:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reticent
A group of 37 members of local assemblies protested to the publisher earlier this month, arguing that the Rape of Nanjing had never taken place and that the depiction of the scene in the comic distorted history.

The publisher plans to change or delete some parts of the comic when it publishes the series in book form, the spokesman said, without elaborating.

Has anyone seen the actual comic?
Scary, to be censored (withdrawn) seemingly for depicting something the way it really was, at least that's what the article makes it sound like. The goofballs who believe what they are taught in japanese history class... like the thing about the germans bombing pearl harbor to draw japan (unwilling) into the war.

As for protecting one's image, it's more seen as protecting the 'honor of one's ancestors', but who could live a lie for that, it's just plain goofy.

And with the internet making it wasy to interact w/ people outside your own country, they're probably starting to wake up to the real truth, how do you think the author of the manga got the real history in the first place (again if the article is correct -- someone take a look at the actual manga itself).


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