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-   -   kind of noob but... (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=26780)

boou28 2005-12-22 21:19

kind of noob but...
 
i know this is kind of noob but why do fansubber's use SSA and vdub over a normal video editing program like adobe premiere or one of those cheapo easy to use video editors?

also what is vob sub? what does it do?

sorry for being noob, just want to learn some more.

orion 2005-12-22 23:15

I think that you should prob ask this in the Fansub Groups forum where the experts are concentrated.

Sakuya 2005-12-23 00:02

Cheapo? SSA and Vdub are free. :heh: So...even better.

boou28 2005-12-23 01:05

kind of noob but...
 
i know this is kind of noob but why do fansubber's use SSA and vdub instead of a normal video editing program like adobe premiere?

also what is vob sub?

sorry for being noob, just want to learn some more.:D

DryFire 2005-12-23 01:10

premiere costs a lot of money last time I checked. Virtualdub, ssa, avisynth, etc.... are all free.

boou28 2005-12-23 02:38

so its mainly because of cost?

DryFire 2005-12-23 03:11

I'm unaware of premiere's filtering abilities, but avisynth has a large number of filters that can be very useful.

I believe premiere is made more for content creation, which is not something most encoders do normally, unless you want to count adding the subs or a splash screen.

Other opensource apps have abilities that rival or are better then commercially availible ones. I see no reason to pay for it.

Maceart 2005-12-23 03:12

Since fansubbing is technically "free", yes, we're cheap. We use freeware.

boou28 2005-12-23 03:29

so if i had to learn how to edit/create videos should i learn with vdub/SSA/avisynth/etc?

btw, whats vob sub and avisynth?

sorry im still noob haha

lamer_de 2005-12-23 03:41

Also, from my personal experience, Premiere sucks ass.

And encoders use avisynth as main tool nowadays, nearly no work is done with vdub other than using it as a frontend to access vfw. And if you encode to h.264, vdub isn't used any more either.
As Dryfire already pointed out, Premiere is a nle (nonlinear video editor) which is mostly used to, well, edit video ;) While you can do that with avisynth as well, working with several audio and video tracks at once is probably harder in avisynth than doing it with a nle that has a gui.

"Vobsub" (it's called vsfilter nowadays) is a filter that allows adding subtitles to video streams and "Textsub" is the only filter I know of that supports ass (advanced ssa, needed for sign typesets, karaoke etc) commands.

CU,
lamer_de

TheFluff 2005-12-23 06:48

Well, some people use Adobe AfterEffects to create signs, karaoke, logos etc. Premiere is, however, almost never used. At least I haven't ever seen anyone using it.

As for Avisynth, it's probably one of the most powerful video tools ever. It's several times more capable than Premiere is, even though handling multiple tracks means a lot of typing and framecounting, like lamer_de said.

Ledgem 2005-12-23 07:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFluff
Well, some people use Adobe AfterEffects to create signs, karaoke, logos etc. Premiere is, however, almost never used. At least I haven't ever seen anyone using it.

Correct, and even then, many signs and effects are done with script effects. AfterEffects is only called in for more advanced effects, as seen when groups attempt to mimic certain series logo with their own group name. It isn't always used, though. The scripting effects can do quite advanced things.

Since SSA and vdub are the traditional (and free) tools of the trade, it's also what people know and learn. The Adobe programs have a pretty steep learning curve to be used effectively and, as was mentioned, they're expensive - we're fansubbers, not warez enthusiasts. From my experience, fansubbers rarely train themselves. If you have a particular resource (fast computer, fast internet, large hard drive space, etc.) and volunteer it, you will be trained for a certain position within a fansub group.

You're being trained by a fansubber of that particular position. That fansubber obviously works with what he knows. If you move to a different position, it'll be the same thing, though you'll be more capable of teaching yourself. However, the resources you'd be using are the same as the other fansubbers. You can't do something radically different, because you're doing one part of a larger process. What you do needs to be compatible with everyone else.

This isn't to say that innovations don't occur within fansubbing. New programs and methods are tested all the time. In order to get the job done, there'll always be the trusted methods, of course, and those are what people learn when they first enter into fansubbing.

But that all probably corresponds to something a bit different than what you specifically asked. The specific reason is that it's not necessary and it's less efficient than what fansubbers currently use, due largely to cost and learning curve factors. As was also mentioned, in certain cases it's less effective in general. The programs were intended for a different purpose (video compilation for Premiere, and effect overlays for After Effects) than simply re-encoding video and overlaying subtitles.

Sylf 2005-12-23 10:17

Right before the big asuki forum hack, this thread span over 20 pages long. Among fansubbers, there are wealth of knowledge on how to make certain effects using SSA/ASS. And with the growing amount of knowledge sharing and program/tool sharing that's occuring on this forum recently (especially for the past a year or so), that knowledgebase in general is expanding exponentially. Of course, vobsub/vsfilter enables us to put those SSA/ASS script on the video.

The knowledge sharing etc has been going on in even greater amount and in greater length on doom9's forum. (And to an extent, on the individual forums of the frequent doom9 users.)

We can't say the same thing about programs like Premier. That's all - we're just not used to it. And when we have tools that works great for us (it may feel klunky at first, but after a while, some people can do some wizardly works using these freewares), there is little or no need for us to turn to commercial programs.

boou28 2005-12-23 14:16

so do you recommend that i learn avisynth over adobe?

if so, what programs will i need to get started?

thanks everyone who's helpin me out here:cool:

DryFire 2005-12-23 14:27

Are you trying to become an encoder? If so yes.

The programs you'll need depend on what you whish to do.

boou28 2005-12-23 14:40

well, im just lookin to gain some video editing skills. i wanna be able to do that karaoke stuff and make videos with transitions and whatnot...furthermore i wanna be able to learn about codecs and stuff, and how to end up with a good solid video file.

what should i do?

edit: i also wanna learn how to add music and stuff

Sylf 2005-12-23 15:00

This is what I think - you're trying to do too much at once.

Mastering karaoke stuff takes time. A person can spend more than just a quite a bit of time polishing up such skills. It's fun, but it can also test your patience.

Scene transition and stuff are not something fansubbers create on their own - for that, programs like Premier may outperform the softwares used by fansubbers.

Want to learn about codecs? This requires even more patience. Encoding video's takes time. And for each codec, there are numerous different settings you can play around with.

Video processing is not just about codecs though. Video filtering is completely separate subject. It's the art of how to maximize the compressibility while keeping as much details as possible. And there's also another art of how to diminish the video noise as much as possible without killing the details. And before you can go in to such art, there's the whole process of getting used to knowing what's good video and what's bad video.

Although I said they are "completely different subject(s)" above, video filtering and codec settings do go hand in hand. Of course, this is further complicating this whole challenge.

That's why DOOM9 and the forum goers there share their knowledge so openly to assist others on their endeavors.

What should you do really? Start reading. And when you start getting the hang of what needs to be done, start experimenting. Be ready to spend countless of days on it.

boou28 2005-12-23 18:46

thanks dude

if i want to learn something useful and practical what should i start out with? and how do i get started?


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