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-   -   [UC] Kamille Discussion (Zeta / Gundam ZZ) (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=29702)

klunz 2006-03-05 09:26

[UC] Kamille Discussion (Zeta / Gundam ZZ)
 
Does kamille just make an appearance in zeta and thats it? is there any follow up to waht happens at the end of zeta?

I know theres ZZ but i think i read its only bright and haman that makes an appearance.

Blaat 2006-03-05 09:35

He's in ZZ, in the beginning and in the final part of the Earth arc (which is one of the story arcs in Gundam) and that's it.

brightman 2006-03-05 10:55

He's also seen in the last episode.

And in the Dublin arc (the "final part of the Earth arc") he plays a pretty big role.

klunz 2006-03-05 11:55

ok thnx for the help. Glad theres still a little more kamille in the UC, im just really feeling sorry for the kid, especially after last ep of zeta :(

Blaat 2006-03-05 12:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by klunz
ok thnx for the help. Glad theres still a little more kamille in the UC, im just really feeling sorry for the kid, especially after last ep of zeta :(

I suggest you go to the Zeta movie 3 thread ;)

Lonely 2006-03-05 14:48

[UC] Kamille in series after Zeta...
 
i would have loved to see kamille in CCA.. would have been nice to see amuro and him work together to take down char

brightman 2006-03-05 14:58

Kamille might not even fight Char, since he agreed with his ideals. Though he definitely wouldn't have understood Char's change of personality (suddenly going genocidal).

Lonely 2006-03-05 17:40

well i doubt kamille would agree with char about dropping tons of asteroids on to earth..

Shinji103 2006-03-05 18:00

Kinda :topicoff: :

Quote:

Originally Posted by brightman
Kamille might not even fight Char, since he agreed with his ideals. Though he definitely wouldn't have understood Char's change of personality (suddenly going genocidal).

Err, "genocidal?" So you're saying he wants nothing more than to kill people? *buzzer* Wrong. :heh: He wants to force people off earth and keep them off to make them become Newtypes, which he believes will stop wars and conflicts.

Sorry for being somewhat off-topic, I've just heard far too many of these kinds of comments :heh: , when it was perfectly clear that his goal was not death. The accomplishment of his goal would have meant the deaths of many people. That's different from wanting to kill people in the first place. Like the old saying goes, "You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs."

Of course I doubt Kamille would side with him, but Kamille would understand his reasoning since he agreed with Char's ideas in Zeta Gundam.

brightman 2006-03-05 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shinji103
Err, "genocidal?" So you're saying he wants nothing more than to kill people? *buzzer* Wrong. :heh: He wants to force people off earth and keep them off to make them become Newtypes, which he believes will stop wars and conflicts.

Char wants the extinction of the Earthnoids. He wants every human to migrate to space to become a Spacenoid. And he's willing to kill everyone on Earth to do it.

I'd say that this is a classic case of genocide, comparable to those historic conquerors who try to eliminate a race through interbreeding. Yes, the goal is not to kill every single one of them, but to convert them. The end result is the same=the extermination of a "race" or "nationality".

Really, people stick up for Char so much that its sickening. The guy is a monster by the time of CCA, and they keep on talking about what he really wants. Does it matter? No. The fact is that he is planned to drop an asteroid onto Earth which would kill a lot of people. The ends do not justify the means.

Shinji103 2006-03-05 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by brightman
Char wants the extinction of the Earthnoids. He wants every human to migrate to space to become a Spacenoid. And he's willing to kill everyone on Earth to do it.

I'd say that this is a classic case of genocide, comparable to those historic conquerors who try to eliminate a race through interbreeding. Yes, the goal is not to kill every single one of them, but to convert them. The end result is the same=the extermination of a "race" or "nationality".

Really, people stick up for Char so much that its sickening. The guy is a monster by the time of CCA, and they keep on talking about what he wants. Does it matter? No. The fact is that he is planned to drop an asteroid onto Earth which would kill a lot of people. The ends do not justify the means.

He wants to force the Oldtypes of earth, who have their soulds weighed down by gravity, into space so they'll become Newtypes. Nowhere said anything about the extinction of anybody.

Well actually if his logic was right, the ends would have justified the means in the long run since wars would have ended, thus ending the mass-deaths of war. We just never got to see if he was right or not since his plans didn't succeed and the people of earth didn't go to space and become Newtypes.

Indeed he is much of a monster in CCA, he uses people like tools much like Scirocco did (Gyunei, Quess, Nanai), but he didn't do it for personal greed or lust for power. Kind of like how Treize and Miliardo wanted to end all wars. Their method: have a huge brawl where tons of people die to show people who horrible war is.

brightman 2006-03-05 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shinji103
He wants to force the Oldtypes of earth, who have their soulds weighed down by gravity, into space so they'll become Newtypes. Nowhere said anything about the extinction of anybody.

Oldtypes -> Newtypes = extinction of Oldtypes. So yeah, someone did say.

Quote:

Well actually if his logic was right, the ends would have justified the means in the long run since wars would have ended, thus ending the mass-deaths of war. We just never got to see if he was right or not since his plans didn't succeed and the people of earth didn't go to space and become Newtypes.
Except they did. By the time of Victory Gundam, only a tiny percentage of population remained on Earth. And yet we still had a war. So his logic was indeed wrong.

And if you're saying that in order to get peace, you need to kill people, then you'd probably think that guys like Master Asia and Rau Le Creuset are nice guys too...?

Crusader 2006-03-05 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shinji103
He wants to force the Oldtypes of earth, who have their soulds weighed down by gravity, into space so they'll become Newtypes. Nowhere said anything about the extinction of anybody.

Well actually if his logic was right, the ends would have justified the means in the long run since wars would have ended, thus ending the mass-deaths of war. We just never got to see if he was right or not since his plans didn't succeed and the people of earth didn't go to space and become Newtypes.

Indeed he is much of a monster in CCA, he uses people like tools much like Scirocco did (Gyunei, Quess, Nanai), but he didn't do it for personal greed or lust for power. Kind of like how Treize and Miliardo wanted to end all wars. Their method: have a huge brawl where tons of people die to show people who horrible war is.

I'm Sorry but milliardo wanted the same thing, im sorry, but actions speak louder than words. But thats a whole new ball game.

However, im with brightman on this one, Char was genocidal, He wanted to get rid of oldtypes, which clearly wasn't a good thing, considering that the majority of them were innocent people. Char really only hated the Federation government buthe blamed all the people of earth.

Also, if char really wanted to get oldtypes off the earth, wouldn't he at least allowed the people time to escape the planet, but did he do that, no, becuase he wasn't intending that from the beginning. To make matter worse, he was doing this for his own personal feelings, i don't think any of the Zeeks really supported him, considering they were so eager to save the earth. once again, another subject for another day.

ths1138 2006-03-05 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by brightman
And if you're saying that in order to get peace, you need to kill people, then you'd probably think that guys like Master Asia and Rau Le Creuset are nice guys too...?

Well, Master Asia wasn't exactly a bad guy. His means were indeed wrong, though he did have good intentions. His purpose was to make use of the Devil Gundam to get people off the planet (something ilke Char in CCA I guess) so that the planet can recover on its own (or with the help of the Devil Gundam, which was the original purpose of the Ultimate Gundam). Things only got out of hand when the Devil Gundam went out of his control and into Wong Yun Fatt's hands.

Rau, on the other hand, simply wanted to kill mankind because he hates people. He had no other agenda than that, so he was just plain evil.

ths1138

Shinji103 2006-03-05 22:11

Brightman: So why is the change of all Oldtypes to Newtypes a bad thing? Getting down to the specific definition, yes it is genocide, but most people look at genocide as actually killing off an entire race. The bad part of "changing all Oldtypes to Newtypes" is still unspecified.

But the people that really needed to be in space, the people on earth who run stuff, the Federation government, is still on earth. By making the earth uninhabitable and making all Oldtypes into Newtypes, there wouldn't be any Oldtypes, but if there are Oldtypes. No matter how few (unless you're only talking about a few hundred compared to several hundred million or billion, although that isn't the case in F-91 or V :heh: ), then it's still all for nought, because the selfish and lazy Oldtypes of the Federation government are still running things on earth.

I never said in order to get peace you need to kill people. I said "you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs." And thus I brought up Treize and Miliardo. Because they had a goal, and they were willing to do whatever evil things necessary to achieve that goal, just like Char. If there was an effective method for achieving a goal then great, but things are rarely so convenient that complete peace can be achieved without problems/bad things.


Crusader: Again, the point wasn't to kill anybody. That's what the result would have been, not the goal. He knows the selfish and lazy Federation government won't listne to him, so he decided to force them to get off the earth by making it so nobody could live on earth.

If he gave the entire earth-based human race, who probably number somewhere in the hundreds of millions (or hundreds of thousands at least) enough time to get into space, which would take many decades, possibly even over a century (it still hasn't happened completely in V Gundam, 60 years later), then he would only increase the chances of Londo Bell being able to stop him, which they did even without him giving them more time. Not to mention, he could potentially cause more chaos on earth. People would be scrambling to get off the planet, some wouldn't want to leave, etc. There are plenty of things that could go wrong with waiting for the entire population of earth to get off the planet. And I seriously doubt they have enough space on the colonies for the entire population of earth. There would be massive starvation from lack of resources, for one problem.

Waiting for everyone to leave earth is just not a realistic option. It would take far too long to build all the colonies, make all of the new colonies self-sufficient, and move everyone on earth to them. Char would die of ld age before this plan is completed, and once he's gone, the selfish Federation will be just "Oh he's gone, we don't have to listen to him anymore. :p" That's assumig they really listen to him in the first place. And as I stated, he has to worry about Londo Bell stopping him.

RabidZeph 2006-03-06 00:19

I think Kamille would side with Char because of Four. I doubt he thinks very highly of forced cyber newtypes such as those from the Murasame Labs. I think he'd help Char force everyone off of Earth just so no one will have to go through that again.

RX-78GP04G Gerbera 2006-03-06 00:51

reply
 
I think Kamille would be stuck between a rock and a hard place here.

Even though he didn't show it too much, he really respects both Amuro and Char and probably wouldn't be able to decide who to side with since, really, both of them are right and wrong in their own way.

Though I don't think he'd necessarily agree with Char about dropping asteroids onto Earth and creating a nuclear winter everywhere and killing tons of people by doing so considering Kamille felt about killing innocent people during the Gryps Conflict.

Lonely 2006-03-06 02:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by RX-78GP04G Gerbera
Though I don't think he'd necessarily agree with Char about dropping asteroids onto Earth and creating a nuclear winter everywhere and killing tons of people by doing so considering Kamille felt about killing innocent people during the Gryps Conflict.

getting innocent people involved into a political debate is something the titans would do. even though kamille did agree that old types were selfish and etc. he wouldn't agree to char's methods.

brightman 2006-03-06 21:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shinji103
Brightman: So why is the change of all Oldtypes to Newtypes a bad thing? Getting down to the specific definition, yes it is genocide, but most people look at genocide as actually killing off an entire race. The bad part of "changing all Oldtypes to Newtypes" is still unspecified.

The bad part of changing all the "Oldtypes" into "Newtypes" is that the whole theory is unproven bull. Char is an obsessed megalomaniac who takes his father's words too damn seriously, and he is forcing his beliefs into mankind, which means the meaningless deaths of everyone on Earth.

The whole point of later Tomino shows is that "Newtypes" is just a myth. Mankind will always be at war no matter if they are in space or on Earth. Throughout much of UC, its the Spacenoids who are the oppressive bastards. The EFF is a corrupt government, but except for the Titans, it is not one to start a war. In V Gundam, it is undeniable that the Zanscare are the aggressors and it is obvious that they are in the side of the wrong. The same applies to F91 and Crossbone. In all of these instances, Spacenoids and Earthnoids have nothing to do with it. If anything, the Spacenoids, the so called "Newtypes", come out as the worse side.

Shinji103 2006-03-07 02:50

Brightman: Well I think it's safe to assume that Char had no knowledge of the Crossbone Vanguard and the Zanscare Empire, since they all came decades after CCA. :heh:

But really, it isn't proven that Char is wrong in his belief. He believed that as long as Oldtypes exist, there will always be war. Well, in F-91 and V, there were still Oldtypes around. Worse, the Oldtypes were running things. And guess what? Wars started up. Just because Spacenoids started the wars doesn't mean that wars won't stop if Oldtypes all become Newtypes, since we've never gotten to see all Oldtypes be turned into Newtypes. It just goes to show that Spacenoids found the governing by Oldtypes to be very unsatisfactory, to say the least.

Pointing out the Zanscare and Crossbone Vanguard actually helps my side. Because Char couldn't turn all of humanity into Newtypes, wars like in V and F-91 happened.


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